A scathing interview on the Joe Rogan podcast with one of the architects of the Make America Healthy Again (MAHA) movement shows how Calley Means burned the ships after quitting the Trump administration as Robert Kennedy Jr.'s right-hand. But before he turned in his badge, he took former White House Chief of Staff Susie Wiles down with him.
Wiles could have been fired anyway for her tin-eared midterm election strategy, but Calley Means said on the Rogan show on Friday that she was behind an effort to undermine the president and disenfranchise his voters because Wiles had more interest in self-dealing than keeping the president's priorities.
Means's two-hour-and-20-minute interview with Rogan detailed how Wiles worked around the president to funnel money into her and her daughter's lobbying firms.
The timing of the interview was odd. Wiles submitted her resignation last Thursday night. Means's Rogan interview happened on Friday. Sounds like there was a connection.
Trump gave his 2024 election-winning commander a soft landing by saying she was needed at his "political operation," but Calley Means had nothing but acid-drenched words for the now-former Chief of Staff.
Means said Wiles had a “stranglehold on any policy decision,” which many CISs do. But what that meant was that decisions were considered in terms of dollars and cents to her and her daughter's companies.
“If a company hired Susie’s daughter, then that was getting a high priority," Means told Rogan.
Indeed, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis has already said as much about Wiles after he kicked her to the curb in 2019.
So President Trump finally figured out what Ron DeSantis already knew about Susie Wiles back in 2017. Better late than never I reckon, but irreparable damage has already been done. Wiles can't stand the Desantis', and she was more than likely behind the Hope Florida hoax to smear Casey DeSantis.Wiles saw Casey as a political threat to her boi Byron Donalds who had to be neutralized.I hope she doesn't mess Florida up too much when she becomes our quasi governor.
— DKelly 🇺🇸🦅🇺🇸 (@1Nicdar) November 7, 2026
But this was beyond an adherent being upset that someone was making money on politics. We've all heard that story before. It was, in his mind, much, much worse.
A goal of the MAHA movement was to rid the nation's crops of the spray that is outlawed in Europe: glyphosate, a key ingredient that keeps crops weed-free. Means says that Wiles listened to the lobbyists who put up "an almost violent reaction" to the proposal. Lobbyists pushed the White House for changes to the law that would block lawsuits against the company.
“The idea that your food system in order for it to function, it relies on poison is really insane," Means said.
A couple of days later, Means leaked information that Wiles was attempting to compromise President Trump, or, as he put it, "throw President Trump under the bus," by blaming him for her contretemps.
I want everyone in the White House to know that Susie is executing a systematic strategy to throw President Trump under the bus.Below is Susie’s stenographer sharing her leaks that it was not in fact Susie who was captured by Ballard, but the President. Brian Ballard said in writing he didn’t lobby Susie or White House staff on glyphosate. Since Ballard’a disclosure below said he personally lobbied the White House in the quarter of the EO’s release, he is either lying or throwing President Trump under the bus. Which one is it @BallardFirm James Blair is angrily texting saying “my problem is obviously with President Trump” and sending quoted to media blaming him for the corporate capture in the first two yearsAdditionally, Ballard is running a public relations campaign to explicitly defend Susie Wiles and say that President Trump is the sole reason the administration has caved to the tobacco and pesticide industries. What’s most demonic is that Susie and Ballard are taking aim at the foundational claim I’ve made that she and her cronies on K street didn’t prioritize corporate interests to a larger degree than Americans voted for. Ballard is actually making the argument with a straight face they didn’t materially coordinate with Susie to rig policies.The Joe Rogan episode has caused cultural impact because everyone watching knows it’s true. Susie - I’m not intimidated and you will not scare me. Again, please stop sending me emotional texts. This is not personal - this is civilizational. If America doesn’t move on from the revolting version of politics you represent, our country will cease to exist. A lot of Americans feel that. To current and former leaders in the admin - it is time to speak out. It is time to speak to the press about what you saw. The weapon we have is truth. Let’s identify the problem - so Stephen Miller and President Trump can solve it. Whatever side of the aisle we are on, we should pray for Stephen Miller’s to exorcise Susie’s culture of corruption from the admin and get us on a posture advocating for voters, not Ballard.
— Calley Means (@calleymeans) November 9, 2026
"Ballard" is one of the public affairs companies Wiles was connected with.
Wiles is widely believed to have leaked negative information about the Trump administration to the media. PJ Media's Scott Pinkster reported in his story What the Hell Was Susie Wiles Thinking? that it was her ineptitude with the media that soured him on Wiles.
If you haven’t heard, Wiles agreed to ELEVEN separate interviews with Vanity Fair over the course of the year, culminating in yesterday’s hatchet piece (and all those absurdly unflattering close-up portraits). Which meant she invested a whole lot of time and energy to help the mainstream media lambast the Trump administration.
The lesson is that:
[...] If you straight-up tell a journalist that the president has an alcoholic’s personality, Musk is a “jacked-up Nosferatu” on ketamine, Trump and Epstein were “young single playboys together,” and Attorney General Pam Bondi “completely whiffed” in her investigations, you can’t complain when the journalist uses it
Rookie move.
In the end, Wiles was out, and Stephen Miller was installed as her replacement.
On Thursday, Miller issued a directive in the West Wing forbidding staff from meeting with lobbyists in "the White House Complex" unless the White House counsel's office has cleared it first.
“No President in history has fought more relentlessly, selflessly or courageously for the American People than President Trump," Miller's directive said. "Following his example, White House staff are expected to dedicate their time unwaveringly to the working people of the nation,” he concluded.
Good.
