Israel has been bad. Very bad. At least, according to the US. Hillary Clinton called Benjamin Netanyahu the other day and remonstrated with him as if he were a seven-year old who didn’t put his toys away for the fiftieth time. The presenting complaint:
State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley described the nearly 45-minute phone conversation in unusually undiplomatic terms, signaling that the close allies are facing their deepest crisis in two decades after the embarrassment suffered by Vice President Biden this week when Israel announced during his visit that it plans to build 1,600 housing units in a disputed area of Jerusalem.
Clinton called Netanyahu “to make clear the United States considered the announcement a deeply negative signal about Israel’s approach to the bilateral relationship and counter to the spirit of the vice president’s trip,” Crowley said. Clinton, he said, emphasized that “this action had undermined trust and confidence in the peace process and in America’s interests.”
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I have used the shrink’s term “presenting complaint” quite deliberately because I suspect something rather different is going on here. Leaving aside the Israeli political infighting revolving around the announcement of the building plans coming behind the Prime Minister’s back, what really is manifesting itself here may be just another display of the Obama administration increasing weakness and confusion. They have no foreign policy achievements whatsoever with little on the horizon. They don’t even seem to have a plan. They wanted to make a show at least of trying to solve the Israeli-Palestinian problem.
The emphasis is on the “show” and the “trying” for obvious reasons. Nothing in the current situation augured for this to be anything more than a charade. Israel is totally concerned with Iran, as it should be, and nothing about the Palestinians has ever shown that they really want an independent state, alongside an Israeli one anyway. If they did, they would have had that state decades ago.
So this is about the Obama Administration appearing to do something more than it is about reality. And then blaming somebody else. Nothing new about that. It’s their modus vivendi. All hat and no cattle, as the saying goes.
UPDATE: Abe Foxman also thinks something’s wrong.
MORE: It gets worse. Those great “friends” of the Jews the Europeans are thinking of putting trade sanctions on Iran, er, scratch that, Israel:
The European Union might use its trade ties with Israel as leverage to pressure it into renewing peace talks with the Palestinians, Catherine Ashton, the High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy at the EU said on Saturday.
Ashton was speaking at an EU foreign minister conference held in Spain. Swedish Foreign Minister, Carl Bildt, said that Israel’s announcement on building in east Jerusalem during United States Vice President Joe Biden’s visit last week was intentional and not coincidental.
There’s a simpler explanation: Obama has internalized the left academic post-modern Arab narrative: it’s all the fault of the Jews, the colonialists who deprive Moslems of their rightful lands. Utopia will arrive when the Jews are gone. The State dept. has been full of Arabists for generations; now they’re all on the same page with the Prez. When will the Obami drop the nonsense about Iran? They’ve been Iran’s great enablers and in truth would not regret Iran getting an A-bomb and using it on Israel.
I certainly agree, Stephen. I think both are true (for different parts of the administration and the State Dept). And they only enhance each other.
It is also interesting to contrast this kind of language directed toward Israel with the treatment of the Honduras situation and treatment of Hugo Chavez. Chavez tries to take over the airwaves and the prez hugs him.
What is disgusting to me is that they are far angrier at Israel for building apartment buildings than they are at Iran for building nukes.
Okay back up. The Obama administration isn’t “anti-Israel” for condemning the spread of settlements. Every time the Israeli and Palestinian leaders strike some sort of peace agreement, Israeli settle in a Palestinian area, resulting in a breakdown of the peace talks. If there is to be some sort of long term peace agreement in the region, the Israeli settlers need to stop closing in on Palestinian territory. I’m not saying the situation is the Jews’ fault, and I’m pretty sure Stephen has no idea what he’s talking about. The Palestinians do just as much to breakdown the peace process, but, if we can get the Israeli settlers to stop violating boundaries, we should.
And by the way, Stephen, there is no “Arab narrative”. If you turn off Glenn Beck and pick up an encyclopedia, you would realize that the country that is the most vehemently anti-Israel, Iran, isn’t even Arab. It’s Persian. Boom roasted.
What is disgusting to me is that they are far angrier at Israel for building apartment buildings than they are at Iran for using terrorist proxies around the world to exert their power over the past thirty years; for oppressing women, ethnic minorities, and anyone who seeks to integrate Iran into the modern world; for covert and overt support of American enemies in the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan; for policies of extraterritorial assassinations of regime enemies; for demanding the respect of a legitimate nation state while failing to accept the constraints of the normal international community; for taking hostages in the sovereign territory of the US Embassy without subsequently making amends; for making hegemonic claims in the Gulf region, destabilizing the international order; and oh yes, clearly pursuing nuclear weapon capability while brazenly lying about it to the whole world.
Yet to this administration and its like-thinkers, the Israeli-Palestinian territorial and national question is at the root of Mideast problems, including the character of Arab regimes and even the Iranian aggression. They are fools, incapable of understanding the different cultural and thought patterns of the peoples in the region. And they are clearly uncomfortable with and simultaneously incapable of asserting the interests of the United States in the region.
Adrian I fear is missing the point, and believes without evidence that the Palestinians and Arabs want a two-state solution. Iran as a country is not vehemently anti-Israel, the Iranian regime is virulently anti-Israel, but the regime is not representative of the sentiments of the population of Iran.
Obviously Adrian has not read the Hamas Charter. Or perhaps he thinks they are Persian.
I invite folks to see what Reut R. Cohen has written about this: http://www.reutrcohen.com/2010/03/israels-announcement-of-jerusalem_12.html
As long as the likes of Wafa Sultan are sidelined for being candid, as we see here: http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=2673117
then there is trouble to pay, because of the pettiness of those who have more power than the average Joe.
For, it might have to come to the military to
force the post-modernists out of power, and then borrow from the Newfoundland example which was conducted from 1933 – 1949, as seen
here, http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=2644283 because those who say
Geert Wilders is wrong when he says the line
between Islam and Islamism is fuzzy – they will not surrender.
Within my own family, there has been an ongoing discussion about how this administration would “play out” vis a vis its relationship with Israel. (among other things)
On these very pages, I have written my concerns over the ease with which then candidate Obama snuggled with anti-Israel extremists. I was very uncomfortable not just with Jeremiah Wright (whose adoration of Louis Farrakhan was overt and bombastic), but also with Robert Malley and Zbigniew Brzezinski and Rashin Khalidi and Ali Abuminah and Susan Rice…the list goes on and on.
Within my own family (and, of course numerous left leaning others), I got back the typical responses. But one of the most frequent was “Rahm Emmanuel would never let it happen”.
I have watched and wondered whether Rahm was the Pet Rock of the administration for this very purpose. He is being undermined daily by the Iranian born Jarrett.
So, a public dressing down of Bibi…while simultaneously sending very, very, very weak signals to Iran, is in keeping with the Jarrett-Malley-Brezinski faction and is rather consistent with the emasculation of Emmanuel.
The Soros, Alan Houston, Don Warden snippets of connections and interactions (Khalid al Mansour) simply add logs to an already rather large bonfire of anti-Israel vanities.
Some will claim that this is all “guilt by association” …as if these very same apologists would not make immediate connections between a David Duke or even the late Jerry Falwell. Heck, if one even worked in the Bush administration, they were a “sell out” for doing so.
Let’s be clear, there are Israel haters within the James Baker wing, the Pat Buchanan wing, the Zbigniew Brzezinski wing.
I believe they have been trumped by the assortment of raging anti-Semites allowed within the decision making branch of this administration and Emmanuel is not powerful enough to overcome them.
Perhaps we should have seen this coming. I certainly was keeping an eye open for it. Let’s go back and look at the signs and signals.
(and shame on Hillary for allowing herself to become a party to it)
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/01/barack_obama_and_israel.html
I believe the folks over at Contentions@Commentary provide a real good analysis of the intentions of the Obama folks:
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/category/contentions
The last four posts for today are the ones I’m referring to.
I, however, prefer Occam’s Razor: Obama has immersed himself in years of anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism (yes, redundant, but that’s on purpose). After all, how to explain a Obama’s deep anti-Israel sentiment when he counted among his friends “The Honorable” Louis Farrakhan, Rashid Khalidi, Rev. Jeremiah Wright, William Ayers, and Father Pflaeger? These men are some of the most anti-Semitic on the face of the planet; surely Obama was able to reject their pearls of wisdom on things concerning Jews and Israel?
It looks to be a dark road ahead for Jewry. If America abandons Israel, how much sooner before Israel sees that it is the lone good force in the world?
“Those great “friends” of the Jews the Europeans are thinking of putting trade sanctions on Iran, er, scratch that, Israel”
EUropeans murdered Jews in WW2. After WW2, the EUropeans backed the PAlestine Authority, which murdered Jews. Apparently the EUropeans are becoming tired of their lackey’s lack of progress, and will again resort to doing their own dirty work.
Adrian, the “narrative” of wanting to obliterate the Jewish “Entity” easily bridges any existing divide between the strictly Arab world and its neighboring Persian Iran. The obvious connecting tissue, besides their shared and relentlessly obvious antisemitism and eliminationist policies against Israel, is the Islamist philosophy that undergirds it all. Just because one country is primarily Shia and Persian and others are Sunni and Arab does not mean that they do not share a common goal of establishing a worlwide Islamic Caliphate. Just as the Russians, Germans, Italians and Japanese of 1941 were all easily allied against the world’s Anglo and French democracies, despite their very different racialist and totalitarian philosophies, so it is with Islam. As with the Axis countries, their first duties are seen as winning their war against their greatest adversaries and then to settle with their temporary allies of convenience when the dust settles. So it is with Islamists, to defeat the “Great and Little Satan” and later to squabble over the eventual ascendancy of one of their particular brands of Islamic totalitarianism after the possibility of, first a regional, and then a worldwide, Caliphate is made a fact.
As far as the contentious new housing in “east” Jerusalem is concerned, these new housing units are in already established settlements which are even now Jewish-Israeli; they are very unlikley to be negotiated away in some future deal with Palestinian organizations because they are not actually staking out any new “territory” at all. After all, when additional Israeli citizens are born, they must live somehwere. Finally, don’t forget, Jerusalem is the capitol city of the state of Israel; they shouldn’t have to apologize to our current administration any more than Mr. Obama should apologize to the President of Spain for a new apartment building being built in Austin, Texas. The meme of Israeli “settlers” being the sticking point preventing peace in the Middle East is preposterous on its face.
When Israel decides to attack Iran’s weapons sites, what will be the responses of Turkey, America (over Iraq), and Saudi Arabia?
It’s simple – the Obama administration is a delusional know-nothing Jew-hate administration. And near 80% of American Jews voted for him. So Roger when are you gonna have the guts to call your fellow American “Jews” (well the majority of them at least) what they are, backstabbing know-nothing traitors who have sold Israel down the river? This is a scandal in contemporary Jewish affairs that is largely unremarked upon, and it is surely unprecedented. This is not a minor tragedy, Israel is up against the wall and it has NO ALLIES. What is at stake is nothing less than the survival of the Jew nation and American Jews have demonstrated by their vote that they are part of the problem.
As an Israeli Jew, let me tell you, I HATE most American “Jews”. I see them here, all these stupid young spoilt so-called Jews who don’t know anything and don’t want to know anything. Still not really all their fault, it’s their whiny baby boomer idiot pseudointellectual parents who are still stuck in 1968 in every way and haven’t taught their kids anything because they don’t know anything. They have nothing to teach their kids, other than how to take a bong hit and get all nostalgic on how good the music was back in 1970. Man do I hate the baby boomer generation of American “Jews”. Out of touch and living in the past, eggheaded know-it-all know-nothing morons. No fools like old fools. No wonder your kids are so dumb. A plague on your house.
Yes there are plenty of Israeli Jews who are idiots too, I know trust me. Mainly in the Tel Aviv area. It’s always the Ashkenazi Jews (I’m one myself), defective genes perhaps. Seriously it’s their allegiance to their European heritage and ideologies and suffering the self-same European miseducation. Jewish in name only.
If things start to get bad for American Jewry, I could care less.
#15 Larry70.
You’re a bit too hard on American Jews. They’re for the most part as uninformed, naive, & gullible as most Americans re: the Middle-East. The fact that American Jewish ”leaders” & organizations are liberal airheads & sell-outs to the Democratic party most certainly doesn’t help. A biased mainstream media does it’s best to misinform & misrepresent Middle-East issues.
But, you are absolutely correct about Israeli Jews who have no excuse for being as uninformed, naive, & gullible as their counterparts in America. Sadly, many Israeli Jews are idiots. Our mainstream media is even worse than America’s.
But the real blame is our political leadership, Netanyahu included. Our political system only produces political hacks, it is our lack of tough leadership who pursue our national interests & not just short-term political advantage that is the problem.
4. JBR:
What is disgusting to me is that they are far angrier at Israel for building apartment buildings than they are at Iran for building nukes.
You said it well. I agree and it shows where this administration’s priorities are in the starkest terms.
“UPDATE: Abe Foxman also thinks something’s wrong.”
“But one of the most frequent was “Rahm Emmanuel would never let it happen”.
It was very clear during the presidential campaign that Barack Obama is hostile towards Israel. He was more than hinting that he considered the Palestinians as victims of imperialist oppression. Moreover, Obama attended the church of Rev. Jeremiah Wright. The odds were therefore overwhelming high that the present reality was inevitable. Abe Foxman long ago lost his credibility. He no longer deserves to be taken seriously.
Rahm Emmanuel was a member of the Bill Clinton administration. American Jews should hold it utter contempt. At the very best, one might be able to say that Clinton was naive but well meaning. His stupidity resulted in the murders of countless Israel citizens.
Trying to negotiate with the current Palestinian leadership, be it Fatah or Hamas, is like dealing with Al Capone. The same could be said of leadership in Iran and North Korea. Recognizing any of these governments for purposes of negotiation only gives them legitimacy. There is no point in offering civilized discourse to leaders who comport themselves like mafioso. Since they are all criminals, they should be treated as such.
Israel has already demonstrated what peace in the region could be. Over a million Arab Israelis enjoy the rights of full citizenship in Israel. Show me somewhere else in the Middle East other than Iraq where Arabs enjoy civil liberties under a democratic republic. The naked truth is that Arab culture is socially and politically retarded. They just can’t come to terms with modernity: civil liberty, women’s emancipation, religious tolerance, and consensual government to name a few of the foundational pillars.
It’s equally pointless to expect anything positive from the current administration in Washington. Mr. Obama is a political thug with all the instincts of a totalitarian. He doesn’t believe in our foundational principles either. There are no philosophical principles guiding the mid-east peace process. Therefore, nothing can come of it. We are left to muddle on. Sad but true.
I think some full disclosure is important on these kinds of threads.
The subject attracts ethnocentric types who monitor every story on Israel – and then we are swamped with the opinions of relatives of the accused.
If this site were crawling with Muslims – you bet people would be complaining that the ‘rag heads’ are controlling the dialogue.
Well, Jews are controlling the dialogue on Israel – here and every other website – and with no disclosure.
I’ll start.
I think the demographic war on Muslims in Palestine is evil, and should be punishable with worldwide sanctions.
Those Israelis who shoot Pali kids for sport should be hung. The demons who sell their body parts for cash should be killed more slowly.
I am not Jewish.
next?
My comments are not hateful or anti semitic.. .certainly no more vitriolic than those of the resident Israelis.
This website is becoming an echo chamber for the Likudniks.
I am a recovering republican – a Tea Party independent who does NOT agree with our policy on Israel.
You will not win the hearts and minds of the TEA PARTY if you continue to pretend we don’t exist by removing our words if they don’t fit your ‘agenda’.
G Marks, I AM a Tea Party person, have attended a half dozen or so events, and you are the first I have run into who isn’t adamantly pro-Israel. I also know Israelis do not shoot “Pali kids for sport.” Quite the reverse. So I wonder if you really are a Tea Party person after all.
And by the way I’m not Jewish either.
The problem of Palestine is, today, insoluble. It makes no sense for Israel to pretend that progress is possible by foregoing settlements on the west bank. That strategy plays directly into the hands of her enemies. The Palestinians have no plans for growing stronger. Therefor, they must insist that Israel dither.
Israel must secure her borders and continue building its infrastructure and military capability. Should a genuine opportunity present itself for a meaningful peace, then other strategies might obtain.
I doubt that the Israelis make much of Sec. Clinton’s posturing beyone the obvious. American foreign policy is in disarray. America, despite the bluster, will not and cannot abandon Israel. In the coming war with Iran, we’ll need each other.
Larry70 is right on the ball, including about the ’68 boomer parents. Even in the “modern” Orthodox synagogue I used to go to was and is being torn apart by the same whiny and angry crowd; yes, many voted for Obama in spite of clear indications he was pro-Palestinian and anti-Jewish. (I”ve moved on to a congregation with people from the same era that “grew up”. I am still Orthodox, but can’t the leftist Jews in Orthodoxy or any of the other branches.
I should amend that; I’m supposed to love them as fellow Jews, as people, but I hate their politics and their views and what they are doing to the Jewish polity and to Israel.
G Marks, first of all, I would like to know what our policy is on Israel. As I understand it, each administration is free to pursue the type of foreign policy it wants. As I see it, the Obama Administration’s foreign policy is this: friends = bad, enemies = good. This is not just exclusive to Israel and so far it doesn’t appear to be working.
Second, you make it seem as though the Jews are controlling what is going on in this thread. That seems pretty anti-Semitic to me. Well, you fools cannot possibly be pro-Israel with being controlled by the Jews!! Let me tell you something: I came to be pro-Israel beginning in 2005. Know what happened that year? Israel pulled families out of the Gaza Strip and gave the land to the “Palestinians” in an attempt to make peace with them. They even left them a burgeoning agricultural economy to help them get settled in. Know what Israel’s reward was for this act of kindness? More rocket attacks, the kidnapping of its soldiers, and terrorist attacks from the “Palestinians”. That event sealed it up for me as to which side I will stand on.
By the way, I am a black man who is not a Christian who believes in standing on the side of good. Israel, after that event, to me epitomizes what is good in humanity. The Palestinians, on the hand, have demonstrated that they do not want peace. Perhaps the people want peace, but as long as their leaders are Hamas and Fatah, then the Palestinians as a whole do not want peace with Israel.
@ G Marks
Whatever you might claim about yourself, your words speak for themselves. You and your ilk are no more than the lunatic fringe of the Tea Party movement. I cordially invite you to disassociate yourself with the rest of us who are decent and upstanding citizens.
Furthermore, you obviously don’t know the Israeli people at all. I can tell you from my personal experience in Israel that the Jews are a highly moral and law-abiding people. The accusations you offer are nothing more than blood libel. If anything you said were true, the Jews would investigate the matter and prosecute the offenders. You probably don’t care to know that civilian casualties in Gaza during the last IDF incursion were taken to Israeli hospitals for state of the art medical care.
I don’t know what your motives are, G Marks, and I quite frankly don’t care. Your words are hateful and your ideas are either colored by propaganda or willfully ignorant. Consider yourself publicly excoriated and condemned. You need to take your hateful spew somewhere else. No one here is going to take you seriously.
GMarks, your assertions are, when not downright offensive, laughable. If Israeli’s were waging a “demographic war on Palestinians, then how come the arab population in both the arab territories and Israel itself is increasing faster than the Israeli Jewish population? Israelis must be very very bad at demographic war. By the way, there is now and never has been a country called Palestine. When the word to describe the much larger general territory around the current state of Israel was coined, first by the Romans and later by the British, it was meant to describe the area mostly populated by Jews; in fact, it was generally understood that “Palestinian” meant Jew. The rapid rise in Arab population from in-migration into British Palestine came mostly after the increased economic activity precipitated by British rule and early Zionist settlers, who bought their land from willing sellers, made it seem like a good move to the impoverished residents of nearby Arab countries.
While people who defend Israel post more frequently than their opposites on this site, I say, so what. That is not to say it is “ethnocentric,” because I have not polled the posters on their ethnic identity. Perhaps that is a job for you. It does sound sort of historically familiar though, doesn’t it? Read some history that goes back further than 1945; you might find it rather illuminating. There are many many other web sites where antisemetic and anti-Israeli sentiment predominate; perhaps you would find the atmosheres there more accomadating to your point of view.
No one here has resorted to name calling, except some Israeli Jews calling their American cousins some very unflattering names. And, your blood libel claims of Israeli Jews “who shoot Pali kids for sport” and “sell their body parts for cash” are truly indicative of the evil lying propaganda that has its roots in both Nazi Europe and, later, Islamo-fascist quarters of the Middle East, Leftist antisemetic precincts of modern Europe, and the smattering of old-fashioned 1940′s-style Fascists remaining on the planet. Good luck in your campaign to find any honest and fair-minded people to agree with your seemingly ignorant and/or racist point point of view.
Last, I don’t believe for a minute that the vast, vast majority of American Tea Party activists, or any of their leaders, would associate with you or your views for 10 seconds, if you stated them honestly. Frankly, what you said sounds much more like what a committed leftist would say if he wanted to spread FUD and disharmony among the honest center- and right-leaning people who want a better, safer and saner America, Middle east and world.
“if we can get the Israeli settlers to stop violating boundaries,”
Boundaries? You mean land acquired during time of war?
To equate building on land that you have taken due to war to the genocidal rantings of the Palestinians is ridiculous.
10. cfbleachers:
1. I don’t think Rahm is doing anything to help Israel — quite the opposite (though he may not look at it that way) He was interviewed on TV some years ago, during Olmert’s time in office, wherein he said an immediate two state solution was the only way, but that Israel was intransigent and “needed tough love” from America to get it done. (Sorry that I have no link or more clear memory of who the Interviewer was — might have been C-Span.)
2. Criticism of “Guilt by Association” is ridiculous, absurd, obnoxious, and stupid. Of course there is judgment by who one chooses to associate with, and rightly so. We don’t need to go to “David Duke” — Associations/affiliations are always indicators of anyone’s leanings — what else would they be? Don’t give this silly defense any credence at all.
5. Adrian.
Jerusalem is not a “settlement.”
Jerusalem, throughout recorded history has had a majority of Jews — right up to the 1948 war. It had been an “International Zone” under the British Mandate, when Jordan invaded and annexed it. The Hashemites “ethnically cleansed” all Jews from the Old City (East Jerusalem), where they had lived for centuries, and Arabs moved into what had been their homes.
Israelis do not consider it a settlement, nor is it on the “table” for negotiations by anyone except Obama.
(If you recall, in his campaign speech to AIPAC he promised vehimently that “Jerusalem will NEVER be divided!!!” (Within a day or so, he “amended” that and said he “meant” it would never be divided “by barbed wire” — Almost amusing if you’ve got a twisted sense of humor.)
Daniel Pipes wrote a very interesting article about Jerusalem and it’s meaning to Islam.
He gives a brief history, showing that it was neglected and ignored by Muslims, except intermittently when it became a political tool.
IF I FORGET THEE — DOES JERUSALEM REALLY MATTER TO ISLAM
http://www.danielpipes.org/281/if-i-forget-thee-does-jerusalem-really-matter-to-islam
“But when Muslims retook the Old City with its Islamic sanctuaries in 1948, they quickly lost interest in it …. In fact, the Hashemites made a concerted effort to diminish the holy city’s importance in favor of their capital, Amman. Jerusalem had served as the British administrative capital, but now all government offices there (save tourism) were shut down. …. Once again, Arab Jerusalem became an isolated provincial town, now even less important than Nablus ….”
“Perhaps most insulting of all, Jordanian radio broadcast the Friday prayers not from al-Aqsa Mosque but from a mosque in Amman …. ”
“No foreign Arab leader came to Jerusalem between 1948 and 1967 …. ”
“Perhaps most remarkable is that the Palestinian Liberation Organization’s founding document, the Palestinian National Covenant of 1964, does not even once mention Jerusalem.”
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AQUA:
The Pipes article was interesting, but, for me, unpersuasive. Islam has a long and often troubled relationship with the People of the Book. Pipes, though, seems to underestimate the centrality of the very notion of Prophecy to Islam. Abraham and Jesus are revered as prophets, not merely as proto-Muslims.
That the importance of Jerusalem to Islam is significantly political seems likely, even though the distinction is probably unimportant to most Muslims. The Dome of the Rock was clearly intended as a response to the splendor of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, yet it was also intended as a religious statement. The Qur’an is the last and final revelation of Allah. Islam perfects Judaism and Christianity. Islam is the final progeny of Abraham.
It does little good to argue that Muslims shouldn’t revere Jerusalem as their third holiest city. They do and have for a very long time. That’s not to say that Jews and Christians have a lesser claim. I personally think their claim is stronger, but Muslims will never simply forget Jerusalem.
Jerusalem, as seen by the Arabs, is the “fartherst outpost”, aka Al Aqsa, of the Muslim religion. It’s ties to Jerusalem are tenious, as its name suggest, as was only an afterthought in Islam’s places of most holy.
Mecca is where Muslims pray towards, not Jerusalem. The way the telling goes, Mohammed was “transported” to Jerusalem, which gave it ties. Thing is, again, you pray towards Mecca, not Jerusalem.
If any religion has claim to that city, it is not Islam nor even Christianity, but the Jewish religion. In my view, the reason that Islam is claiming Jerusalem is because it is a way to co-opt any local, Jewish, religious traditions in an effort to convert the locals. It didn’t work centuries ago and is not working now.
When Israel became a nation, just after WWII, no Jew could live in the West Bank. It wasn’t until the war in 1967, the Six Day War, that lands like the West Bank were taken by the Israelis.
There has been precedent for land-for-peace swaps (Israel and Egypt), however those that call themselves Palestinians today do not want peace. Even as late as 2005, when Israel evacuated the settelements in the Gaza Strip (land that was taken in war in 1967), attacks upon Israel continued.
US support of Israel at the outset of the inception of the country was virtually non-existant. Israel had to look elsewhere for training and military supplies. It wasn’t till much later that the US started to support Israel in earnest and in more outward terms.
Are some saying that lands gained from war are not valid lands to live on?
Really?
Today, the United States has places like Guam and Puerto Rica because of war (Spanish American War). Also, using the same flawed logic, the US Southwest should be evacuated of all US residents ceded back to Mexico (US-Mexican War).
Whether like it or not, Israel gained these lands due to war and it is hers to dispose of as she pleases.
Now, let’s consider one of the settelements, Ma’ale Adumim, a suburb of Jerusalem. It is about 33,000 people with 99% being Jew. It is the 3rd largest city in Isreal. Are some saying that this small to medium sized city should be cleared because it was territory gained during the war in 1967 and shouldn’t have been populated in the 1st place?
Texas Dude,
Holy places are often afterthoughts–St. Peter’s, for example. That doesn’t make them any less significant in the culture that sees them as holy.
The Prophet, although he had never been to Jerusalem, was well aware of its importance to Jews and Christians, and their prophets. The Night Journey, as it is interpreted, for ever connects Mecca, and Jerusalem in the minds of Muslims. Any political solution to the problems of Palestine can’t ignore this fact.
I wish Israel would expand to the Atlantic. I couldn’t care less about who is or isn’t Jewish, or any pile of old stones and who want’s to say what there.
Only one group has law. Only one group has lawful representation, reasonably law following judges and prosecutors and appeals court.
Let that be all of North Africa. Call it what you want, Israel, Topeka Sand and Gravel Corporation.
אלוהים יברך ישראל
I’m serious when I say that Israel should nuke up.
As an American who is a neighbor of an American Christian Jew who visits her father every year in Israel, I get more ‘inside’ info than most.
The idiot f*cks who think they can snuff out Israel will be met with nuclear fallout. I hope it never comes to that but if it does, I’m 100% behind Israel.
33 and 36 Old Dad
“It does little good to argue that Muslims shouldn’t revere Jerusalem as their third holiest city.”
You seem to have misinterpreted Pipes writings. He never implied that “Muslims shouldn’t revere Jerusalem,” or suggested that they would ever “simply forget Jerusalem,” but is pointing out the facts.
You make an interesting point when you say,
“That the importance of Jerusalem to Islam is significantly political seems likely, even though the distinction is probably unimportant to most Muslims.”
It is, however, important for those who are not Muslim to know.
The facts are that throughout history, whenever Jerusalem was not part of a political agenda, it was neglected, to the point that it became a “back water” almost “ghost” town, even to the point that Al Aqsa fell into ruin.
This is quite a revelation when considering Palestinian claims of their inability to “live” without Jerusalem as their Capital.
The article wasn’t about “telling” Muslims what to think or believe, but rather presenting the facts to others so they might understand the true significance in context of past and recent behavior and history as shown by the way Jerusalem and Al Aqsa were treated when political considerations were absent.
Also, a little considered fact that when Mohammed wrote about the “farthest mosque,” he didn’t mention Jerusalem, and there was no mosque in Jerusalem — it was built centuries later and “deemed” the “furthest mosque.”
Faith is faith, however, and Muslims do believe this spot to be the 3rd holiest in Islam. That isn’t disputed.
But it’s a good thing for those who are not Muslim, just to know the facts, be aware, and take it into consideration — that’s all.
Though they won the war of 67, Israel gave control over Al Aqsa to the Muslims and never prevented them from worshipping there. From 48 to 67 when Muslims had control, Jews were prohibited from praying at the Western Wall — which, clearly, would again be the case were Muslims to have control over it. Daily, they dig under the Temple Mount and destroy precious ancient and holy artifacts they fear might demonstrate evidence of the Second Temple.
They demand “respect” but refuse to give it.
Last thought to Old Dad:
Have you — or anyone — ever given thought to the idea that a New Caliph might build a Mosque in London, Paris, New York or California, re-”deem” it to be the new “true” “furthest mosque” and demand that it be “respected” that that city is their new 3rd Capitol?
Since the Koranic goal and plan is for Islam to dominate all the world, and the “furthest mosque” is not a named place, but means the farthest reaches of Islamic territory — Why not?
AQUA,
As to “forgetting,” check out Pipes’ title.
Al-Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock are revered by Muslims, regardless of what you or I think.
And so a “New Caliph,” the Mahdi, the antiChrist, the Messiah, and Reverand Jeremiah Wright build a Holy Land’o'Rama on the south bank of the Thames–then commences the rapture?
I get the sense the Israelis picked the timing of this deliberately to gauge the resolve of their “ally” for the future. I suspect Netanyahu really understands that Obama is against Israel and wants to see how far Obama will retreat from the “alliance” before a serious action like an attack on Iran be necessary or a fresh war with Hezbollah/Hamas breaks out. Netanyahu will use this to determine how far Israel can afford to go it alone.
That it happened during Biden’s trip is perhaps not so ironic. They wouldn’t deliberately provoke a President during his visit, but a Vice President is a safer proxy. Biden also was the one who told supporters during the campaign that:
“we’re gonna have an international crisis, a generated crisis, to test the mettle of this guy.”
Biden even doubts that Obama will respond to the crisis in a way that inspires confidence. He tells Obama’s supporters that Obama is “gonna need you – not financially to help him – we’re gonna need you to use your influence, your influence within the community, to stand with him. Because it’s not gonna be apparent initially, it’s not gonna be apparent that we’re right.” http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NTE2ZTg4Y2RiMDA5N2YzYmVlMjVjZDlkYTFmM2FiODc=
I wonder which “community” he is referring to here.
Israel should redeploy a significant fraction of its nuclear arsenal to Europe and America, and in the event of an Iranian attack should detonate them. The Europeans and Americans would be equally responsible for an Iranian attack with the Ayatollahs.
One point from #15 ought to be looked at:
“This is not a minor tragedy, Israel is up against the wall and it has NO ALLIES.”
If so, then why does Israel act like a nation that is NOT up against the wall, and backed by omnipotent supporters? There is no plausible security rationale for the new construction in disputed land. There are only 2 effects, both easily predictable:
1) show a tough “we don’t care ’bout no friggen arabs” mindset to hard core nationalist supporters.
2) Piss everyone else off.
A nation that accepts 2) as a necessary cost of accomplishing 1) is not acting like a nation against a wall.
The appropriate priority in Israel ought to be: “Let’s do nothing to irritate the nation that underwrites our defense with billions of dollars a year, especially when they have budget problems. No apartment building is worth THAT much.”
Zee bid problem you jooos have iss you gust don’t vant to get on zee buss. Before you alvays gott on zee buss. Now you zay you von’t go. Who do you zink you are?
Snark/off
Not going to happen Roger. One of the true paradoxes of the universe – Evangelical Christians caring more about and for Israel than most American Jews. Conservative Jews I’ve befriended over the years even scratch their heads trying to explain that one.
As long as bigots like Abe Foxman continue to rant that Evangelical Christians are the greatest threat to world Jewry today, count on 80% of the liberal American Jews continuing to pull straight Democratic ticket, even it means the end of Israel.
To heck with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. What’s is important is 21st century patriarchs Obama, Axelrod and Emanuel.
Doesn’t it seem like Obama is the Devil persuading otherwise normal people to destroy the United States?? Hussein is an evil Muslim and the Joos are going to be blamed by the ignorant for him having been elected to the Presidency. In hindsight it was obvious that Hussein created a parallel government of independent Czars in training to take over the federal bureaucracy from the Constitutional government when an opportune time arrives for him. Forget about the Jews who hate Jews Emmanuel and Axelrod, because they will become Je Accuse and will be gone so that more radical Hussein appointees can take their places. Hussein wants to be the only one with power, by using a fire that he started- health care, to keep Conservatives on the defensive plus to get rid of powerful Democrats. Hillary is power hungry and very evil also. Everyone must become united as one in order to defeat this grave and dire Muslim threat against America.
Anyone who thinks Rahm has any outside loyalties or principles which direct and inhibit his actions and choices has another think coming. His view of others and of nations is purely utilitarian: What utility do they have in maximizing the influence of Rahm Emanuel?
His lack of subtlety and restraint may yet do him in, but never imagine he will restrain himself from empowering himself.
Swami;
appeasing the US might have made some sense when its government had a fair to moderate grasp of the value and importance of Israel’s survival.
The current government has no such grasp, or priorities. Appeasing the current Administration is a fast road to extinction.
If Israel ever reaches the point where declining American support makes its further survival unlikely, it will choose to call in all the chips, and have a fighting chance. Question: do you actually think Obama et al want Israel to have a fighting chance? If so, what evidence is there of that? I’ve seen none.
41. Old Dad:
To use a Whoppi-ism — He didn’t mean “forgetting” “forgetting” — he just meant forgetting in the sense of ignoring — as the facts show.
How many times do I have to repeat — no one is disputing how Muslims feel.
What I’m saying (again), is that it’s important for non-Muslims to know the facts while they consider what’s occurring there.
Evidently, you think that non-Muslims are better off not being aware of those facts, and in any case, should shut up, not think, and “submit” — that is when Muslims’ feeling are involved.
Wha?? You’re a little dopey here. Clearly, I was pointing out that Muslims could conceivably say the “farthest Mosque” could be anywhere, since it isn’t scriptural — and they very well might some day. And then what? If it happens, it’ll be too late for any “then what’s” or “so’s.” Europe is up for it — no “rapture” — hardly even a whimper.
Doesn’t anyone remember the Mensheviks?
The Jewish intellectual arm of the Russian revolution?
All went to the wall eventually. Of course.
Those that don’t study history are doomed to … forget it.
They’re just doomed.
Thank a teacher.
OK, people back up.
The Ramat Shlomo neighborhood where the building is planned is in a NORTHWEST neighborhood of Jerusalem. Not “East” Jerusalem.
Furthermore, the contested “East Jerusalem” (Neighborhoods of Silwan,City of David, Wadi Joz, Shimon the Righteous) is comprised mostly of a bunch of Arab neighborhoods where the “neighbors” are occupying homes from which Jordan evicted – more terrorized – the poor Sephardic Jews who had made Aliyah from 1940-47 and lived in tin huts and tents. These Arab people are literally the “pot calling the kettle black”.
But, why should history be taken into consideration? After all, why allow facts get in the way of opinions?