Given the unrelenting abusive outbursts by Muslim students during Michael Oren’s speech at UCI yesterday you would think the University of California Irvine was really the University of California Jenin – only Jenin probably would have been much more hospitable to the Israeli Ambassador. The students who verbally assaulted Oren throughout his talk were as politically self-destructive as they were emotionally out of control – eleven were arrested, according to the AP – but one wonders how the UCI officials allowed this to happen once again. It wasn’t as if they had no warning. Indeed, they had plenty of it.The record is very clear.
The University of California Irvine has a severe free speech problem and has had one for a long time. Part of this stems from the school’s history of what is politely called multi-culturalism – actually a euphemism for cultural relativism, a bankrupt pseudo-philosophy that provides a phony intellectual veneer to totalitarian behavior. Another part is good, old-fashioned anti-Semitism, which seems to be cropping up everywhere these days. A third part is even more old-fashioned cowardice, working in tandem with the other two.
School officials say they were embarrassed. They should be a lot more than that. They should rectify this situation immediately and in a serious way, because this is a serious case of racism. The reputation of the whole University of California system is at risk here in an era when taxpayers are in a justifiably rebellious mood. Given what’s happened, outside the sciences, it’s hard to regard Irvine as a legitimate educational institution. Why would any of us pay for what is happening there? The California Board of Regents and the administration of UCI should think about that.
(UPDATE: The first part of my interview with Ambassador Oren is here. A transcript will be available soon on PJM.)
Too bad the powers-that-be can’t find anyone to explain the concept of Freedom of Speech to the Student Body.
Irwin Chemerinsky, call your office!
Thank you for this. I had no idea this had happened.
How could this have escaped the LA Times? It had endless fluff in pages 1-5 of its paper today. Are Messrs. Rainey, Skelton and Tobar on vacation today? Or is it just easier to leave such things unsaid, relying on the unprofessional bloggers to alert us to them? Surely if Joy Behar has been shouted down by even one person, we’d have seen it above the fold, with worried thoghts of “angry” voters seeking to “suppress” free speech.
And where is Professor Chermerinsky, Dean of the UCI’s law school? He spent the Bush years worrying about imaginary infringements on free speech: where is he today?
More here at the OC Register:
11 arrested for disrupting Israeli ambassador
http://collegelife.freedomblogging.com/2010/02/08/israeli-ambassador-xxxx-at-uci/15647/
Police identify 11 students arrested at UCI
http://collegelife.freedomblogging.com/2010/02/09/police-identify-12-students-arrested-at-uci/16011/
My son attended this event and has been at numerous others with a similar result. I have informed them that am done making charitable contributions to UCI until the administration rectifies this.
Unfortunately, this is nothing new for UCI. I have been writing to the UCI president and UC chancellor to complain about the climate of fear that is being created for three years. UCI regularly hosts a pro-terrorist, anti-Israel hate fest. The participants have a history of thuggery and have been permitted to harass speakers when the target fails to adhere to left wing doctrine. David Horowitz has done much to publicize the use of UCI to give legitimacy to the most vile characters. The administration condones the hatred when it does nothing but lament the situation.
“And where is Professor Chermerinsky, Dean of the UCI’s law school? He spent the Bush years worrying about imaginary infringements on free speech: where is he today?”
Doing everything he can to avoid confronting the facts.
Nothing in the First Amendment guarantees freedom from being shouted down when you are speaking. This falls under property rights. Even a public university has the right to set and enforce decorum levels at locations and events on campus… a right, but not a duty if a conservative is speaking.
You can get a pretty good idea of how it went from the included video with the first story. Typical MSA hoodlums.
Those law-breaking students apparently were not arrested! I noticed that the police officer warned the young lady to leave immediately—to avoid being charged with a crime. She was merely escorted out of the room. It seems that these young radicals are allowed to disrupt a talk and not suffer any real consequences. That is utterly ridiculous, and most assuredly encourages future misbehavior.
All Muslim Student Associations at colleges and Universities in the United States are IslamoFascist terrorist adjuncts controlled and directed by the Muslim Brotherhood out of Egypt.
There are direct connections to all of these Muslim “student” Organizations. They are totalitarian THUGS who spew racist and antisemitic poison on the campuses and they definitely cow the Politically Correct University Administrations.
Clearly, these organizations are hate organizations. The connections to the terrorist organization, the Muslim Brotherhood are proven. They should all be kicked off campus.
As a University of California graduate, a California taxpayer and a firm believer in the importance of free speech as the very foundation of democratic society, I am disgusted by the attack on the Ambassador’s free speech. UC has been a great university for many decades, but unless it takes strong action to punish this behavior it will quickly decline. I hope these thugs will indeed be expelled from UC and, if they are not US citizens, expelled from this country as well.
Roger:
From the names, you have a problem with The Rag Heads.
I’m sick and tired of being nice to a bunch of hoods. From here on in, I’m calling them as I see them.
Allah Akbar, y’all.
Stephanie Gutmann has a good piece on this at The Telegraph (yeah, hello, LA Times):
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/stephaniegutmann/100025556/another-wild-night-on-campus-reminds-college-adminstrators-why-they-darent-displease-their-islamist-students/
As a UCI graduate, I am again embarrassed by my school. They were bad in the 70′s but are much worse now. I guess the radical grad students from back then have fully taken over
“Nothing in the First Amendment guarantees freedom from being shouted down when you are speaking.”
That is definitely not true when one is an invited speaker. The owner or their representative has every right to request the arrest of a disruptive member of the audience. This individual is breaking the law.
Roger: Following up with UC Irvine official on the record response – particularly, to video or audio if available of the incident – would seem like a good story for PJM or one of Breitbart’s divisions. Nothing apart from a potential law suit produces a knot in a state funded university administrator’s stomach quicker than bad PR. But you have to hammer at it: Hard and loud enough that they worry about it being picked up by a state legislator. Trust me.
Nobody, I repeat Nobody in the entire educational establishment is going to be willing to do anything about Muslims “misbehaving”. Dangerous to do that, don’t you know. Better to just sort of ignore it untill the come for you.
The Agnostic Liberation Front needs to start beheading a few administrators. Until that happens, don’t expect anything but an ankle-grab in response to Mohammedan intimidation.
“The students who verbally assaulted Oren throughout his talk were as politically self-destructive as they were emotionally out of control.”
As always, violence wins. Violence like this-but more extreme-won the political battles of the sixties. Why should left-wing students today behave any better or different than left-wing students in the 1960s? UCI should be grateful they were peaceful compared to rifle-toting, bomb-making radicals of the 1960s. No one opposed to the Vietnam War then and friendly to radicals then could possibly oppose the UCI student’s display of opposition to the MAN!
This is why we should take seriously Iran’s threat to “punch” us on the 11th.
nazionists.
“politically self-destructive”
Politically self-destructive? They seem to be paying no meaningful price whatsoever. On the contrary, these misbehaving individuals have won a cheap victory. I get the distinct impression that the UCI’s administrators may not even lightly rap their knuckles. Violating other people’s First Amendment rights must be severely punished. Will we ever find out what eventually happened to them? Nope, I doubt that very much. The school may claim that the privacy rights of the students cannot be violated.
What is it about today’s insular, tunnel-visioned academics that they lack “a decent respect for the opinions of mankind”? Bleating and squeaking, they approach the High Altar, stretch their throats, cower helpless as Salafist/Wahabi murderers hone their child-molesting prophet’s scimitars. Parents entrusting their benighted offspring at vast expense to such academic creeps and thugs, the very antithesis of enlightened Liberal Arts, connive at tipping Western culture to Abyss.
Roger, I think you should emphasize your third point on why this was allowed–”old-fashioned cowardice”–as the main issue in the universities.
All you need to know is on the head of Middle East Studies web site. Mark Levine has altered the printing of his name to LeVine. Does that tell you anything ? Also, take a look at his “scholarly publications” such as his book co-authored by Viggo Mortenson, the actor. The web site has removed most of his material about his rock band that used to be about half the site. He may not even be head of the department now since it no longer lists that title.
Will we ever find out what eventually happened to them?
David, please don’t waste your time and energy trying to find out. I can give you the answer right away. Absolutely nothing will happen to them and they know it. That is why they were not in the least intimidated by the threat of disciplinary action by the university.
honestly, what do you think UCI should have done differently? As far as I can tell on the video, the people who interrupted were ejected, and the talk continued. Short of not letting in people who appeared Muslim at the door, which is a terrible idea for a bunch of reasons, or not inviting a speaker like Oren who’s obviously going to be controversial (an even more terrible idea) I don’t think there are any other options.
As for arresting vs. ejecting, honestly, I think arresting college activists in general gives them something to brag about and encourages future outburts. Whereas ejecting them just ejects with without bragging rights.
My reaction is a bit different from everyone else’s. I don’t just blame the school administrators, I blame the students. A decade or so ago, a female professor at one of the Claremont colleges had her car vandalized with racial slurs. There were widespread “Say No to Hate” marches on campus, even after it was proven that she’d vandalized the car herself (it turned out she was a rather troubled woman with a past of concocting such incidents, and other difficulties). Point is the students were active and vocal in their condemnation of intolerance from what was perceived to be a white supremacist movement. Fair enough, they should be. My point is this: where is the similar outrage among the same students when Muslims march across campus, chanting slogans that wouldn’t have been out of place in Munich in 1938? For that, it seems that everyone has class and no one wants to be though bigoted or anti-Islamic.
Roger, budget retaliation has already happened. There is no downside to legislators of either party raiding the UC/CSU budget. UC is well on its way to losing all funding from the California legislature.
“And where is Professor Chermerinsky, Dean of the UCI’s law school?”
Nowhere. Chemerinsky came to UCI from Duke, where he managed to hide out and say nothing during the lacrosse case ( “Scottsboro II” with just the colors reversed).
I don’t expect anything from him.
UC Islamafascism. Dirka dirka jihad. Some day a talib from the MSA group at this institution will pull off a terror strike. Dhimmi Cherminski will defend them and think he’s noble when he’s just a second tier on their to head chop list.
Expulsion, swift and immediate expulsion. Give them a year to get used to the idea. Give them three chances if you like. Third time is expulsion from the university and the country if they are not citizens. Otherwise it will not stop.
Anyone still wondering why there is no agreement between Israel and the Palestinians?
Tom: Exactly. Which is precisely why UC admin will hate the stink of really bad PR. Governors and legislators can make life a living hell for state university administration. Remember this: It’s not just level of direct state budgetary support. The Governor and legislature can control by proxy, i.e. the Board, everything related to the UC system from staffing levels to tuition because . . . they _own it_ lock, stock and barrel.
There is a real simple solution to the problem of disruptive students. Make it very clear beforehand, that any outbursts or other attempts to disrupt the speaker will result in expulsion from school. It happened at my school in 1966 at an ROTC review by anti-war students. Each student who took part was identified by photo and expelled for one year. All it takes is some guts on the part of the University. Like that is going to happen, right?
Please look at the 8:54 mark in this U-Tube video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7w96UR79TBw
The police warned the young lady that she would be arrested—if she did not leave the auditorium. Other than that, she was merely being escorted off the immediate premises! It therefore appears that none of these radicals were arrested. That school administer was either delusional, or outright lying.
Minor correction: start the U-Tube video at roughly the 8:40 mark and watch it through to the end. Please pay close attention to the police officer talking to the young lady who claims to be an American citizen and seemingly perceiving herself as a victim of ill treatment!
American universities have dumbed themselves down so much that I wonder how anyone can still call these places centers of higher learning. Thus when these Islamic and anti Semitic hooligans and thugs determine the university agenda and rules of behavior I can no longer even feign surprise and can only shake my head in disappointment. What I will say is that all Americans should be worried, since these evil Moslems are not going to stop with the Jews, they will finish off all the Infidels.
so Michael Oren’s speech should be protected but not that of the students. i bet that if Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was giving the speech. all you guys would be defending the students right to free speech and Mr l simon would be praising the school for for protecting free speech.
…good, old-fashioned anti-Semitism…seems to be cropping up everywhere these days…
Indeed. Ani-Semites crawling out of the closet wherever you look. But Andrew Sullivan joining the pack is especially significant. Sullivan’s outstanding talent is great fashion sense. He always surfs just ahead of of the next big trend. Casual anti-Semitism, briefly out of vogue, is fashionable again in Britain where Sullivan comes from and he’s betting it gains cachet here in the US. Brace yourself.
Hats off to Leon Wieseltier who (with considerable grace) identifies the primitive source of Sullivan’s prejudice in the opening paragraphs of his TNR piece. (Quick: What do Pat Buchanan, Father Coughlin and Andrew Sullivan have in common?)
35. Odysseus
That is not true. The legislature and Governor can do very little except incrementally reduce funding because the UC/CSU budget is now just one of many pots which can be raided for other projects which offer the leg greater income. My point was that higher ed in California is no longer viewed by politicians as something which benefits California. By and large they are correct.
IMO the proportion of UC’s budget which comes from the legislature will drop to under 5% within about 6-7 years, and CSU’s to under 50%.
cisco #41, you are not correct about my views at all. I would support the students right to speak, had they not attempted to shout down Oren and drive him from the stage, which they did, for 20 minutes. That is the antithesis of free speech. Further, much as I loathe his racist eschatology, I supported Ahmadinejad’s right to speak at Columbia University where he was allowed to express his views (although people laughed when he said there were no homosexuals in Iran – a natural reaction to an absurd statement.) Consider this, cisco: Can you imagine Michael Oren being allowed to speak at an Iranian university today? Please cite an instance where an Israeli of similar stature has been allowed to speak in Iran.
Wow. I can only say that as a UCI alumnus, I’m bewildered and embarrassed. And, for whatever it is worth, I apologize to Israel and Mr. Oren on behalf of those of us that are associated in the past with this institution. I’m trying to contact UCI officials to get an explanation.
32: Chavez: I know. But looking out over the landscape and seeing no LA Times, no Chermerinsky,no James Rainer, –just another example of the bunch as posturing frauds. And people need to say so: repeatedly.
Chermerinsky is like someone who hid up north during the civil rights movement, preening to other academics as he penned letters to the editor about the menace of “corporations.” What a spineless wimp.
The muslims in the West are already deciding who can speak and what can be said.
Don’t jump to conclusions.
The same things have happened in England, are happening in The Netherlands, etc.
Don’t jump to conclusions.
Mirandize the terrorists and allow mobs to silence any speaker disliked by the jihadists.
Don’t jump to conclusions.
Why would you possibly expect such a story in the LA times when the name of the game is keeping the tax based funding stream going for the liberal media educational industrial complex? Surely you jest?
This is why I have been calling for years for a complete Jewish boycott of the entire UC system.
Awe now,, you know kids will be kids. If you want a group to worry about,, keep your eye on those tea pary people!!
OsamaHusseinIslamObama 2012′
(the terrorist-Uighur-ACORN-media choice)
-It’s never too early to campaign-
“Nothing in the First Amendment guarantees freedom from being shouted down when you are speaking.”
Not the point. The point is that political free speech (the kind covered by the 1st Amendment) should not be hampered by anyone, especially anyone in an ‘official’ capacity. The climate created by protestors at UCI – the climate which apparently is tolerated by the students, faculty, and administration – has created there a chilling effect on the right to free speech for anyone seen as pro-Israel, anti-jihadist, conservative, etc.
The purpose of the protesters was not only to shout down the ambassador, but also to intimidate others into remaining silent, both now and in the future. If the folks at UCI were real Americans, they would have reacted to the protesters as if someone had thrown a bag of rattlesnakes at the lectern.
if any of the hecklers were students they should have their position as students terminated without refund.
let them take some responsibility. ..maybe they will learn something after all.
“Nothing in the First Amendment guarantees freedom from being shouted down when you are speaking.”
Not the point. The point is that political free speech (the kind covered by the 1st Amendment) should not be hampered by anyone, especially anyone in an ‘official’ capacity. The climate created by protesters at UCI – the climate which apparently is tolerated by the students, faculty, and administration – has created there a chilling effect on the right to free speech for anyone seen as pro-Israel, anti-jihadist, conservative, etc.
The purpose of the protesters was not only to shout down the ambassador, but also to intimidate others into remaining silent, both now and in the future. If the folks at UCI were real Americans, they would have reacted to the protesters as if someone had thrown a bag of rattlesnakes at the lectern.
Expell the @$$e$
We cannot allow these people to intimidate us any longer!!
To #e!! with political correctness.
53. D’oh!:
I will take it further. the right of free speech does not permit one group from denying the others from hearing the guest speaker.
if the university was serious they would expel any student who was disruptive. and if a group was sponsoring them they should get a bill for security costs and damages.
Too bad! I am sick and tired of Mr. Simon posting to us about something anti-Jewish and anti-semitic.
I hate to say it but you brought it on yourselves. Let me explain:
1. I bet at least one or two of the hecklers were jewish kids. American Jewish “intellectuals” such as Chomsky, Alinsky, Zinn and others have for years fostered this hatred of America and Israel. Jews in America have been at the forefront of condemning America and it has unleashed this torrent of anti–Americanism and anti-semitism.
2. American Jews have for years crushed Christians and Catholics in this country with their lawsuits over our holidays. So now how does it feel to be the minority group who is battered by yet another minority group?
3. American Jews continue to vote for, support and help the same party that has continually shown you to be anti-Israel. Jews even voted for a muslim president. Jewish “intellectuals” have for years purused this multicultural, anti-American, moral relativism that is now coming back to haunt them and the US. Thanks
This was orchestrated and an organized disruption of free speech. There is no moral relativism here, public discourse does not and should not allow for the “shout down” to become the equivalent of the presentation.
It is ironic that Geert Wilders is on trial, Mark Steyn was put on trial, but the venom and hatred expressed by Islamic radicalism is made out to be the “victim” in Western society.
This was a continuation of the brutish “intimidation” tactic…and the left sits in a conspiracy of silence and passive acquiescence to it all.
I live mere blocks from this event. In California, especially in Irvine…even brutish behavior elicits nothing more than mild rebuke. In the media, the “news anchors” throw these facts overboard and wait until the hit bottom and are out of sight.
But, I’m not from here, and I have seen these things get out of hand.
In the South, and in certain cities in the Midwest, there have been tests that show the levels of testosterone leap up in males who are “threatened” or attacked. I don’t know if they have any merit, but the studies do exist. Perhaps that is why these events seem to take place in Ivy League and California auditoriums.
I remember a march by Iranian students in downtown Chicago after the hostages were taken in Tehran. The marching students were expecting a non-response…and got the surprise of their lives…it got uncivil pretty quickly.
I’m proud of the restraint shown here by the other members of the audience and the security personnel. UCI is a breeding ground for this type of hatred, and it does not serve anyone to respond with anger, it only backfires and gives rise to “both sides got out of hand” arguments.
However, it appears to these 56 year old eyes…somebody is spoiling for a fight. I wouldn’t look to far away from Iran. There’s a rumbling in the distance and their is an ill wind blowing. Something is brewing and if it’s coffee…we might want to wake up and smell it.
Naming the enemy–radical islam–is the critical first step. I have noticed that since Bush left office, more and more of the Republicans in Congress are willing to do so, which is positive.
The radical pretentions of american university administration and student bodies are well known. What puzzles me is why important people feel a group of students is an important audience.
If israeli politicians speak before the KKK, if such a group can be assembled, or at mosques, surely they will expect a hostile reception. If they choose to speak at a university, they have not excuse not to expect the same.
We have seen that any conservative speaker, or liberal if they represent israel, will get heckled on campus. Its sad and reflects a broken culture and pathetic institutions, but to speak there just glorifies these marxist indoctrination centers.
Good interview Roger – I look forward to Part II of your interview with Michael Oren. He obviously is exceptionally bright. I believe Israel is with good leadership at the moment. And if I may add my own brand eschatology to the discussion, Israel is in the best of hands.
There was some comfort in hearing Mr. Oren state that our western leaders well understood the eschatology of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. I wish I were so confident.
There was a time I thought we should simply ignore the protesters who interfere with a speaker’s presentation. But I believe my first perceptions were wrong because I thought the need to interrupt would fade. The occasions to disrupt seem to be escalating in number.
I commend many of the members of Pajamas Media who fight the good fight. Most I’ve read here carry themselves well in debate. Where I am from, these outbursts are foreign. If they happen, I am not aware. At my oldest daughter’s university Texas A&M, its been my experience the utmost respect is shown even in disagreement. And I believe that demonstrates something of true character. Too bad these goons and wannabees at UC Irvine that feel the need to interrupt guest speakers don’t recognize their crass behavior a sign of weakness.
Or maybe I missed something here in my haste… Is the alarm because this heckling, which has long been a fact of conservative life for some years–tacitly supported by the left, is now directed at a liberal? That the radicalism is no longer limited to the cherished leftist targets?
I wonder…
UCI Dean Erwin Chemerinsky speaks up: http://collegelife.freedomblogging.com/2010/02/10/dean-uci-protesters-stopped-free-speech/16121/
Islam is not a religion. It is a (fascist) ideology dressed up as a religion. These fascists are now trying to stifle political speech and civil discourse in the US. How about showing them the door?
Read the article in #62. Its a law school dean–so he has no excuse, and he claims heckling violates ‘free speech’. Now thats a vague term, but the first amemndment to the constitution prohibits governmental prior restraint on publishing information. That’s a far cry from rude students…
Maybe its because its in california that there is no precision of thought whatsoever–just feelings and slogans.
Criminal behavior, not punished; is encouraged.
It’s no secret that academia has been taken over by progressives and their ilk. These intellectually shallow folks are akin to Stalin or Hitler or other progressives, who care little about laws or customs, as long as they achieve the “correct results.” They view themselves as the new elite, here to make things right based on their wisdom, and little things like civility, social custom, the Constitution or any thing else they don’t like are simply to be ignored or overcome.
The arc of these “masters of the universe” runs from Hollywood to the MSM to academia to Washington to the financial industry and other overcompensated “capitalist” rent seekers.
No surprise at UCI. Israel is so anti-progressive (in their view), so any behavior is justified.
Old news.
Let’s not ever draw the obvious conclusion that muslim immigration to the U.S. should be banned. That would be racisss. Rather be dead than that!
“Too bad! I am sick and tired of Mr. Simon posting to us about something anti-Jewish and anti-semitic.”
Thanks for sharing, blotto, but next time your might want to check your facts before you comment. The eleven students arrested were all Muslims – eight from UC Irvine and three from UC Riverside. Not a Jew among them. You can read about it here, if you are so inclined. From here on in, I suggest you keep your cliché-ridden, racist drivel to yourself. We are not all alike, anymore than Catholics or Protestants are.
“The eleven students arrested were all Muslims – eight from UC Irvine and three from UC Riverside. Not a Jew among them.”
And they were indeed arrested. The young lady in the video apparently did not disrupt Michael Oren’s speech and merely participated in the organized walk-out. She was warned by the police officer to chill out, or she too would be arrested. It seems she might have taken his advice.
FYI: from Melanie Phillips’ blog at the Spectator (UK)
“From enlightenment into darkness at Oxford and Cambridge”
http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/
“Last night Danny Ayalon, Israel’s deputy foreign minister, spoke at the Oxford Union. A meeting that was frequently disrupted by members of the audience reached its low point when one person shouted “Kill the Jews” in Arabic, before being thrown out of the meeting. . . .”
blotto (57)
Are you posting the line you were fed at your local mosque? Sounds like it to me, but if not, then you better start to consider when you’re buying a line of propaganda hook, line, and sinker. Muslims are the cause of this incident and Muslims are spending big money to spread the BS you just posted. You’re either siding with them knowingly or doing so based on your own sterotypes and predjudices.
have a day
Just imagine how many parents are getting second mortgages on their houses so that they can send their kids off to college…where they will learn to be little savages.
Too bad! I am sick and tired of Mr. Simon posting to us about something anti-Jewish and anti-semitic.
Really, blotto. It’s “too bad” that the ambassador to Israel is shouted down in an orchestrated disruption by radical Islamists at an American University? Is that indicative of your feeling about 9/11 or the Christmas bomber as well?
Or is it only about Israel that you have these feelings?
Or, are you reverse channeling Andrew Sullivan…and you give a pass to Israel, but not to American Jews…while he does the reverse? Or maybe you are having a Mel Gibson moment…and blotto’ed is more than a handle?
I hate to say it but you brought it on yourselves.
You people brought it on yourselves. Ahhh. The Holocaust too or just the radical Islamic stated intent for genocide? It’s always helpful to know the extent of the blame. Did Paul Wolfowitz and Richard Perle also bring this on…AIPAC, the “jewish lobby”? I’ve heard that argument before as well.
How about David Horowitz? Andrew Breitbart? Charles Krauthammer? Jonah Goldberg?
American Jews have for years crushed Christians and Catholics in this country with their lawsuits over our holidays. So now how does it feel to be the minority group who is battered by yet another minority group?
Are you seriously asking Jewish people how it feels to be battered? You lost a Christmas tree ceremony to atheists, they lost children to the ovens.
Jewish “intellectuals” have for years purused this multicultural, anti-American, moral relativism that is now coming back to haunt them and the US. Thanks
You mean like Ted Kennedy, Jimmy Carter and Nancy Pelosi?
I’m sorry about your crushed holidays, blotto. Have some chicken soup…it may not help…but, it wouldn’t hurt.
Roger: You limited you comments to what you could rationalize.
But I noticed that you did not attempt to rebut my allegation regarding American Jews who side with muslims. You did not defend American jews who were instrumental in the hate America/multiculturalism/PC moonbat culture we have today that gives rise to what the muslim students did. And I notice that you did not refute the torment American Jews and their legal arms the ADL/ACLU have done to Christians and Catholics.
You took the easy target to reply: That no jews were among that rowdy crowd. Well that was speculation on my part but can you tell us here that no jews have ever sided with muslims becuase they see them as a persecuted minority?
Rashputin: Pick any part of what I said and refute it. I do not have to justify my bona fides; I know very well what happened and who did it. What I am trying to get across to you and Roger is that progressive American Jews have much to blame for the coarseness, anti-American hatred going on in this country. I bet Obama’s good friend and mentor Alynsky and Ayers/Dohrn are all Jewish. Jews voted for Obama despite his friendship with Kalidi.
clfbleachers: Your faux indignation is really too much. READ what I said.
Did I excuse or defend the actions of the idiot students?
If what I say is false then show me your proof to anything I said. Not just opinion.
And yes I am tired of the beating American Jews have laid upon my religion Catholicism and Christians. What about it tough guy? Are you as a “conservative” going to say right here that American Jews have not caused heartache to Christians and Catholics in this country over our holidays. Are you going to tell me that the denigration of Christ is not something I should be upset about?
Dude wherever you are going I cannot tell nor do I want to follow. Stick to the topic. If you must go off on tangents-Holocaust, Neocons,etc then forget it. Pelosi, what???
Of coures there are conservative American Jews. Duh!!! But the overall influence of progressive Jews has made our landscape ripe for what the muslim students did. If you cannot see that yourself then it is not I that needs some soup.
There is nothing “faux” about my indignation, blotto. It’s real as real can be.
You never answered a single one of my questions. The ambassador to Washington from Israel gets shouted down by radical Islamists…and your reaction is “too bad”.
And, that you’re “sick” of being told about “this stuff”.
Ok. How far does that sentiment go? You are lumping together the “bad Jews” and whom else when saying to David Horowitz, Jonah Goldberg, Roger Simon, Andrew Breitbart, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle…how does THAT feel?
You complain about ACLU lawsuits (was Roger Baldwin Jewish, blotto?) and blame American Jews for an attack on “your holiday”.
What does that have to do with radical Islamists, exactly?
Blotto…you are unwilling to equate Kennedy, Pelosi, Carter with any “religious” or “group” negativity. Why? Are there “bad Catholics”? “Episcopalians”?
Or just “bad Jews” in your mind?
“But I noticed that you did not attempt to rebut my allegation regarding American Jews who side with muslims.”
If you are going to indulge in gross generalizations in order to beat up on Roger L. Simon (who hasn’t done anything to offend you) then I would like to ask you about all those Christians who have chosen to side with intolerant Muslims. (I have known quite a few.)
“Jews even voted for a muslim president.”
Leftist scumbag, yes. Muslim, not anywhere near proven.
“So now how does it feel to be the minority group who is battered by yet another minority group?”
Some of us are old enough to remember when anti-Jewish discrimination was widespread.
“What about it tough guy?”
You sound like the drunken assh*le in a bar, 30 seconds before he gets the snot beaten out of him to the applause of all the other patrons. How about you skip the juvenile language and save the BS for situations where you have the opportunity to back up your fighting words with your fists?
“The Agnostic Liberation Front needs to start beheading a few administrators….”
Heh.
But seriously, it would take far less than actual killing: University administrators (and professors) are a notoriously cowardly bunch.
Thomas Sowell writes of “the politics of self-congratulation”. I think part of the reason for such politics is that these people know in their hearts just how mean and contemptible they are, and so they seek effort-free ways of posturing as the superior beings that they in no way are. (Besides, they have to come up with rationales to despise their betters.)
Herbert Marcuse is responsible for the decline of civility in public speaking. See his book “Repressive Intolerance” in which he argues that the speech wrong-thinking people should not be tolerated. (He was a communist, and thought himself always right versus those who disagreed with him.) When I went to college, before Marcuse’s attack on freedom of speech, we had many speakers come with whom some of us disagreed, including communists. But we listened to them respectfully.
The Mohammedan students who disrupted Ambassador Oren’s speech, like others who disrupt speeches of those they disagree with, are not really students, not trying to discover the truth. They should be expelled and required to read and write an essay on John Stuart Mill’s ON LIBERTY before being readmitted.
What about–the next time any UCI administrators visit Europe–getting some Belgian or Spanish judge to arrest them for facilitating racist incitement?
I am quite serious. Time to turn the Left’s own Frankenstein’s Monster against them. Any readers in Europe know the nuts & bolts of how it could be done?
What changed you, Simon?
I’m as disgusted as you are at the university and at the students and at the lack of order enforcement.
But I felt the same in the 60s. Not you.
So was it just age? Getting mellower and wiser?
I welcome the change, but I prefer to see your sentiments professed by younger men who have thought it out, not just mellowed oldsters who don’t apologize for the damage (and deaths) they caused to my country in the past.
Okay, I’m back. I’ll try to say this as clearly as I can:
First, I am speaking of progressive American Jews. I think I said that earlier. If none of you are open enough to understand that there are progressive American Jews who have been at the forefront of anti-American, anti-Christian rhetoric then this conversation is moot. They opened the door to the lack of comity and civility we see today years ago. So of course we still see it on college campuses and the ire of these folks is still directed at Israel and America.
Second, cfbleachers I will not entertain your questions if they are irrelevant to the conversation and histrionic in nature. I never said “too bad” as a reply to any of your questions regarding the ambassador. Read both of our responses.
Third, Horowitz was a radical until he saw the left for what it is. I don’t know about the others on your list. But you have not accounted for the progressive Jews who have hurt this nation. Why is that?
Fourth, are you saying that the ACLU is not intimately associated with the ADL and progressive Jews?
Fifth, you are a perfect example of moral relativism cfbleachers by equating Kennedy, Pelosi and others as examples of bad Catholics. That is a leftist ruse and you are using it as a “conservative”. Shamful. Again you are the one taking us on tangents.
Sixth, pst314, okay name a few? Again what both of you are not acknowledging is that there are progressive Jews who have hurt this country and who have been at the root of incivility dating to the 60s and we see it today. So pst314 the name Barack Hussien Obama is an Irish name?? Oh, forget it.
Lastly, pst314, I know who I am; I don’t have to prove myself to you or anyone. My statement was made because I am tired of my religion being beaten up by Jews, atheists, progressives and anyone else who uses the First Amendment so cavalierly and with disdain for those they hurt. I NEVER said I agreed, defended or sided with the idiots who interrupted the ambassador. Again if you cannot understand that, then it is you who has the problem.
Thank you Roger for the fine debate.
Blotto, for starters how about you take a look at the American Council of Church Mice. Then there are all those American churches that have been in the news for so many years for their loud condemnation of Israel for the crime of defending itself, coupled with a depraved moral double standard when it comes to actual terrorism. Do you really not recall, or are you being difficult?
“Lastly, pst314, I know who I am”
Yeah, I’m noticing what you are too.
So why, if Roger Simon is the problem, are you coming here to piss on him? If, as you claim, your problem is not with Jews in general but only with left-wing anti-Christian Jews, then why don’t take your hostility to a blog run by such people? Pissing on us shows that you are either lying about not hating all Jews, or you are so angry that you lash out even at people who are not your enemies.
“I don’t have to prove myself to you or anyone.”
Sorry, big boy, but after making such a offensive fool of yourself it will take a big effort to rehabilitate your reputation.
Oops–that was supposed to be:
“So why, if Roger Simon is NOT the problem, are you coming here to piss on him?”
“I will not entertain your questions if they are irrelevant to the conversation and histrionic in nature.”
Pot, meet kettle.
blotto: “Too bad! I am sick and tired of Mr. Simon posting to us about something anti-Jewish and anti-semitic.”
cfbleachers: “The ambassador to Washington from Israel gets shouted down by radical Islamists…and your reaction is ‘too bad’.”
blotto: “I never said ‘too bad’ as a reply to any of your questions regarding the ambassador.”
Looks like blotto has a bad habit of dishonesty.
pst314: Oh forget it. Your quick repartee is too much for me. And then going after my character is really cute. Typicial leftist. Can’t debate the topic-must attack the person.
I’d ask you to read again what I have said but I know you mind is made up. Funny you have yet to refute anything I have said. All you could do is draw a moral equivalency.
Oh, and your comments about Chuches was priceless: You find some off beat American Council of Churches to make a point. So you point to an organization that makes terrible statements as a defense or moral equivalency for what, exactly…Anti-Christian progressive Jews and other leftists… Is that the game you are playing?
“So why, if Roger Simon is the problem, are you coming here to piss on him? If, as you claim, your problem is not with Jews in general but only with left-wing anti-Christian Jews, then why don’t take your hostility to a blog run by such people? Pissing on us shows that you are either lying about not hating all Jews, or you are so angry that you lash out even at people who are not your enemies.”
Priceless. Funny in all your condemnation of me you have not once said anything about the students or progressive leftist and Jews who follow that ideology. How come?
Sorry I can’t play this game.
“Typicial leftist.”
Silly fool. You know absolutely nothing about me.
“Can’t debate the topic-must attack the person.”
So you don’t like being called out when you lie?
“Funny in all your condemnation of me you have not once said anything about the students or progressive leftist and Jews who follow that ideology. How come?”
Because it’s been covered more than enough.
“You find some off beat American Council of Churches to make a point.”
No, it’s far more than just them. Haven’t you been paying attention for the last four decades?
“as a defense or moral equivalency for what, exactly”
To refute your assertion that Jewish anti-Christian prejudice was sort of unique because there was no serious Christian anti-Jewish prejudice. So I point some out and you say “no fair! moral equivalancy!”
Grow up.
So, back to the original topic, before the screamer interrupted….
What about bias and intolerance in academia? What should we do about it?
I certainly would agree that we need to continue to point out every example, but what might be good tactics for attempting to change academia? Might a long-term program of shaming have some effect? A general program of portraying academia as hostile to liberty? Targeting individual academics by not letting people forget after a year what they have said or done? Asking academics why they continue to associate with open enemies of freedom? What is likely to work, both in terms of short-term tactics and long-term strategy?
Blotto–you make some good points, and are saying what I was sort of hinting at. One wonders if some jewish progressives promoting anything anti-christian have found that the enemy of my enemy is not always my friend…
There must be, in some quarters, a conflict felt between the suppression of anti-muslim sentiment by those in the media who are jewish progressives, and the empowerment of an ancient enemy both to israel and to jewish people in america.
In this respect, I consider so-called neo-conservatism to be simply democratic liberalism with a stronger pro-israel stance than the democrats.
Ambassador Oren spoke at UCSD on Wednesday to a sell-out crowd. The Ambassador was preceded by the University President who warned that a repeat of what happened in Irvine would not be tolerated. Any student who interrupted would be expelled.
There were no interruptions.
> THE EARLIEST “HATE” CRIMINALS
> If you can’t guess the people I have in mind, I’ll give you
> some clues—clues found in a major world religion that is many
> centuries old. I’ll call it Religion X.
> Religion X traces its roots back to the First Couple, Adam and
> Eve. They were on earth before any other form of worship—before
> Islam (appearing 14 centuries ago), before Hinduism or Buddhism
> (appearing 25 centuries ago), before even the worship of various
> gods in Mesopotamia (60 centuries ago).
> Early on, Religion X’ers were told by their God: “Love your
> neighbor—and even the stranger who dwells among you—as much as
> you love yourself.” But it wasn’t long before Religion X began
> rebelling against the laws of the One who had blessed and
> preserved it so much. In response God warned: “All those who hate
> me love death.”
> After centuries of hating their God (which predictably led to
> hatred of fellow humans, God’s creations), Religion X’ers were
> allowed by God to be conquered and transported to ancient Babylon
> where they experienced a 1,600-year-long “vacation.”
> If you haven’t guessed yet, the religion I’m describing is
> Judaism. But don’t stop reading. The
> most shocking stuff is just ahead!
> While in Babylon, the “wise men” among the people began
> formulating new laws which supposedly supplemented and explained
> the time-tested Old Testament writings. But the new rules actually
> contradicted and eventually replaced the original laws!
> The “new and improved” laws are collectively known as the
> Talmud. Even though rabbis are Talmudic experts, probably not one
> Jew in a thousand (and not one non-Jew in ten thousand) knows what
> is in the Talmud. Without further delay, here’s some of the
> Talmud’s “wisdom” (plus sources):
> (I) THE TALMUD HATES SCIENCE:
> Hyenas turn into bats after seven years, and later on turn into
> thorns and demons (Baba Kamma, 16a).
> Being naked in front of a lamp causes epilepsy (Pesahim, 112b).
> There’s medicinal value in dirt found in an outhouse’s shadow,
> also in a white dog’s excrement (Gittin, 69a,b).
> (II) THE TALMUD HATES FEMALES:
> The birth of a girl is an unhappy event (Baba Bathra, 16b).
> It is never good to talk too much to women including one’s own
> wife (Aboth, 1.5).
> All women are “temperamentally light-headed” (Kiddushin, 80b).
> It is okay to divorce your wife if she spoils your food, or if
> you find a more beautiful woman (Gittin, 91a).
> (III) THE TALMUD HATES CHILDREN:
> It is lawful for a girl three years old to have sexual
> intercourse (Abodah Zarah, 37a; Kethuboth, 11b,39a; Sanhedrin,
> 55b,69a,b; Yebamoth, 12a,57b,58a,60b).
> When a man commits sodomy with a boy under nine years of age,
> it “is not deemed as pederasty” (Sanhedrin, 54b,55a).
> Sexual intercourse with a boy under the age of eight is lawful
> since it isn’t fornication (Sanhedrin, 69b).
> (In other words, Religion X became X-rated! Is it any wonder
> that many Jewish persons today are liberally involved with the
> current sexual revolution and are even favorable towards
> legalization of adult-child sex?)
> (IV) THE TALMUD HATES ALL NON-JEWS:
> Since all Gentiles are only animals, all Gentile children are
> bastards (Yebamoth, 98a).
> When a non-Jew robs a Jew, he has to pay him back, but if a Jew
> robs a non-Jew, he doesn’t have to pay him back. Moreover, when a
> Gentile kills a Jew, the Gentile must be killed, but when a Jew
> kills a Gentile, “there is no death penalty” (Sanhedrin, 57a).
> It is okay to “use subterfuges” in a court of law in order to
> cheat a non-Jew (Baba Kamma, 113a).
> (V) THE TALMUD HATES CHRIST AND CHRISTIANS:
> Jesus was born a bastard (Jewish Encyclopedia, “Jesus”;
> Yebamoth, 49b).
> Mary, the mother of Jesus, was a whore and “played the harlot
> with carpenters” (Sanhedrin, 106a,b).
> Jesus “practised sorcery and enticed Israel to apostacy”
> (Sanhedrin, 43a).
> Jesus was punished and sent to Hell where he ended up in
> “boiling hot excrement” (Gittin, 56b,57a).
> Christians will go to Hell “and be punished there for all
> generations” (Rosh Hashanah, 17a).
> Those who read “the works of the Judeo-Christians, i.e., the
> New Testament” will end up in Hell (Sanhedrin, 90a).
> The books of the Christians “may not be saved from a fire, but
> they must be burnt in their place, they and the Divine Names
> occurring in them” (Shabbath, 116a).
> (Now you know what’s been inspiring many of the anti-Christian
> attitudes and actions these days.)
> By roughly 500 A.D. Jewish scribes had completed the voluminous
> Talmud, the written version of what had long been the Jews’ oral
> tradition—the tradition that Jesus condemns in the 23rd chapter
> of Matthew and other parts of the New Testament.
> Whenever anyone claims that for 1500 years the Talmud
> needlessly aggravated Gentiles (who in turn put Jews into ghettos
> and even the Holocaust), Jews can look at even earlier history and
> claim that the “anti-Jewishness” of the New Testament forced Jews
> to hit back with their printed version of the Talmud.
> Actually the New Testament, like a newspaper, merely reflects
> the true condition of Judaism at that time. If someone could prove
> that damaging descriptions of Jews never appeared before the New
> Testament, that would be one thing. But during many centuries
> prior to Jesus or any Christians, Jews were saying and doing the
> same things that we find them still saying and doing during New
> Testament days!
> If the New Testament record of their words and works is
> “anti-Semitic,” is the Old Testament record of the same
> rebelliousness just as “anti-Semitic”?
> A while ago I was talking with a young woman in Los Angeles who
> is training to become a rabbi. I asked her about the Talmud. (She
> seemed shocked I should know so much about it already!) “Oh,” she
> said, “I don’t think it’s as relevant as it once was.” When I told
> her that the “hate” movie “The Last Temptation of Christ” was an
> amazingly accurate reflection of the Talmud—and that more such
> “hate” films are in the works because Hollywood takes the Talmud
> seriously—she had no explanation.
> In the future when “hate” laws are passed, will the incredibly
> hate-filled Talmud and some hate-promoting film studios be swept
> under the rug?
[You are allowed to publish this non-copyrighted article. To avoid the prevalent internet censorship, feel free to change the title to "The Original 'Hate' Criminals" (or Crooks, etc.) or "The Earliest 'Hate' Rebels" (or People, Persons, etc.) or "The History of Hate" (or the Jews, the Hebrews, Judaism, etc.) or any other meaningful title, or no title.]
[Also Google "David Letterman's Hate, Etc."]