Jonathan Spyer is not your typical Israeli journalist and political analyst. He has a PhD in International Relations, he fought in Lebanon during the summer war of 2006, then went back to Lebanon as a civilian on a second passport.
I can’t say I felt particularly brave venturing into Hezbollah’s territory along the Lebanese-Israeli border, but it takes guts for Israelis to go there. If Hezbollah caught him and figured out who he was, he would have been in serious trouble.
No one he met in Lebanon knew where he was from. Everyone thought he was British. And no one in Israel but his friends and colleagues knew he went back to Lebanon on his own. He decided, though, that he may as well “out” himself on my blog. His secret journey will soon be revealed anyway when his book comes out in November called The Transforming Fire: The Rise of the Israel-Islamist Conflict
We met in Jerusalem this month and discussed his two trips to Lebanon—with and without a passport—and the perfect Iranian storm brewing on the horizon.
MJT: So why did you go back to Lebanon?
Jonathan Spyer: Lebanon is a fascinating place, and I wanted to visit for all sorts of reasons. I especially wanted to get back to where we were during the war. There is a green valley, which I imagine you know very well, between the towns of Khiam and Marjayoun.
Jonathan Spyer
MJT: Yes, I know where you’re talking about.
Jonathan Spyer: We were down there in that valley during the war, and our tanks got shot up. I wanted to get back there and look at it from Khiam. I hired some guides in Beirut and asked them to take me. We took the coast road down, then drove all the way across southern Lebanon to the eastern sector. And I stood in Khiam and looked down into that valley.
We got stuck there because of a cock-up. The infantry in our division were supposed to capture Khiam. There were 300 Hezbollah men there. We were operating at night. After a series of screw-ups, our column of tanks ended up heading through that valley toward Israel with 300 Hezbollah men looking down on us in the morning. So you can imagine what happened.
And to make it even more ludicrous, we weren’t even moving at the right speed. The steering mechanism on one of our tanks was broken, so we had to drag it with reinforced cables. We were going about five kilometers an hour. We were hardly moving at all. And we got blown to bits by Hezbollah’s missiles. Our armor is pretty good, though, so only one of our guys was killed.
An Associated Press photographer was also in Khiam at the same time, so the AP has a photograph of our tanks in flames. [Laughs.] I’m laughing because I found that photograph on a pro-Hezbollah Web site, and this tough revolutionary guy was on there boasting and saying “the people in those tanks died horrible deaths!”
Jonathan Spyer: I wrote back and said, “Listen. With the exception of one person who was killed, the people in those tanks all got out, hid in the fields for over an hour, and got back across the Israeli border. All of them were operational again within 48 hours.”
Anyway, we were stuck in this field beneath Khiam for about an hour. We hid in an irrigation ditch. They were growing tomatoes and, I think, corn down there. We had the body of our friend with us on a stretcher.
Hezbollah was firing mortars at us. And a ten-man Hezbollah squad came down out of Khiam to take a look. Every tank in the area laid down a carpet of fire, and they turned around and went back. It wasn’t worth it for them to try to go down there, and it saved us from getting into a fire fight.
After an hour or so, we got picked up by an armored vehicle which just happened to be passing by. At first I thought, “Great, they’ve finally sent someone to come get us,” but no. They hadn’t. A group of armored engineers just happened to be in the vicinity. We stood up like guys on a desert island and yelled help help! [Laughs.]
Our friend’s funeral was the next day. We had the night off. I came down to Jerusalem and got drunk. And the next day I was back in the war.
So I was very interested when the chance came along to go back to Lebanon. My professional interest in Lebanon— which has become one of the most important professional aspects of my life —dates from then.
Jonathan Spyer and his IDF comrades near the border during the Second Lebanon War
MJT: Whose idea was it for you to visit?
Jonathan Spyer: A journalist friend of mine up there invited me. He said, “Do you want to come to Lebanon?” And I couldn’t say no. Of course I wanted to go to Lebanon!
We spent most of our time in Beirut, and we also took a trip up to the Cedars. And I said I wanted to go to the south. He didn’t want to go, but he knew some guys who could take me. They showed up at 6:30 in the morning in a beat up car, and off we went.
I partly wanted to go because of my military experience, but mainly because I’m a Middle East researcher who takes a particular interest in Lebanon. I wanted to see what is—as both of us know—a different country. You head down the coastal road, you get past Tyre and Sidon, and you enter a different country.
Hezbollah propaganda in South Lebanon
MJT: It’s true.
Jonathan Spyer: The topography is different, including the human topography. The posters you see are totally different. The atmosphere is totally different.
MJT: It’s like a fanatical Iranian province.
A poster of Ayatollah Khomeini in South Lebanon
Jonathan Spyer: That’s right. And you have to experience it to understand just how strange and extreme the situation actually is. Between Beirut and Tel Aviv there is this enclave of Iran, this strange dark kingdom. And I found it fascinating.
At the entrance to one of these towns, there’s an old piece of the South Lebanon Army’s armor, a T-55 tank I think. And Hezbollah put up this huge cardboard statue of Ayatollah Khomeini.
MJT: I know exactly where you’re talking about. I have a picture of kids playing on that very tank.
Children play on a former South Lebanon Army tank near the border with Israel
Jonathan Spyer: I also saw Iranian flags down there. That’s how blatant and obvious it all is.
MJT: You don’t see the Lebanese flag in the south.
Jonathan Spyer: Right. Only the Hezbollah flag, the Amal flag, and the Iranian flag. It was a real eye-opener. I knew this already, but it’s something else to see it in person. And it’s also interesting how that part of the country interacts with the rest of Lebanon.
It was my first experience visiting a society that functions like the old Soviet bloc in at least one way. People have an acute sense of this unseen power which is both nowhere and everywhere. People in that part of Lebanon always have to be careful, even if they don’t always exactly know why. They understand why in the larger picture, of course, but even with everyday things they have to be careful.
MJT: You don’t feel that in the rest of the country.
East Beirut
Jonathan Spyer: Right.
MJT: I don’t. Not in Beirut or anywhere else Hezbollah doesn’t control.
Jonathan Spyer: Only in the south. In Beirut, it only surfaced when I spoke to people about going down to the south. I’d be hanging out in these lovely bars and restaurants with lively people enjoying these nice airy evenings, and as soon as I’d mention that I was going down there, they’d suddenly become serious and say, “Don’t do it.”
Beirut restaurant scene
MJT: I’ve had that experience lots of times.
Jonathan Spyer: And I’d say, “Why not? Tell me why I shouldn’t go down there.” They’d say I should check in with Hezbollah or the Ministry of the Interior.
And I’d say, “Well, what if I don’t? What if I just head out of the city? What’s supposed to happen to me if I just go?”
No one actually knew.
MJT: Right, they don’t. No one will tell you you’re going to get kidnapped or killed or beaten up or anything else. They just think it’s a bad idea to go down there.
Jonathan Spyer: They just say, “You shouldn’t do that.” To me, that’s power. It’s real unseen power. Any force that can put that kind of fear into people is something we need to look at.
It’s not exactly like the Soviet bloc, but it’s similar. In communist countries they had the ostensible government, but the parliaments didn’t have any power. The Communist Party and the security services had all the power. Lebanon reminds me of that in some ways. There’s the ostensible government which takes out the garbage and educates most of the citizens, but there’s another force that wields the hard power.
MJT: It’s totalitarian down there in South Lebanon.
Jonathan Spyer: Absolutely. Absolutely.
MJT: There’s no other word for it. It’s not just authoritarian.
Iran itself isn’t even totalitarian anymore. It used to be, and the government wants it to be, but it has to contend with massive unrest and civil disobedience now.
Jonathan Spyer: The Iranian regime has the same ideology as Hezbollah, but it’s acting against the wishes of the population it’s controlling. It’s like Poland in 1988. But I don’t think that means the Iranian government is going to fall any time soon. I don’t think it’s Poland in 1988 in that sense.
MJT: You think it’s more like Czechoslovakia in 1968?
Jonathan Spyer: I think the difference between Iran today and Poland in 1988 or Iran in 1978 is that in those cases they had a decadent and exhausted ruling class. What they’ve got now is a hungry and fanatically devoted ruling class. Its project is implausible in the long term, but for the foreseeable future they are willing to kill. They’ve killed before, and they got into power by killing. They’re quite prepared to kill lots of people to stay in power. To get through this, the Iranian opposition will need something very strong indeed. And I’m not convinced that the Green Movement is anywhere near that strong yet.
MJT: If the government fell tomorrow, though, would you be surprised?
Jonathan Spyer: Actually, I would be. I’d be pleasantly surprised, but I’d be surprised.
MJT: I won’t be surprised if it falls or if it doesn’t. If the North Korean government fell all of a sudden, that would surprise me. There’s no indication whatsoever that that might happen. If the Iranian government falls, though, no one can say it came out of nowhere or that there was no evidence that it might happen.
Jonathan Spyer: Sure, I know what you mean.
MJT: You’re right, though, that the government and armed forces are willing to fight. The revolution in Romania that overthrew Ceausescu started out like the one last year in Iran, but it was over in a couple of days because the army turned on the government. The whole thing barely lasted 72 hours, and the army itself put Ceausescu on trial and executed him.
Jonathan Spyer: The people most prepared to wade up to their knees in blood end up holding on in revolutionary contexts. When governments fall it’s often because a bunch of other guys are more determined and ruthless. Maybe the revolutionaries have better ideas for how to govern, but in order to get there they have to be prepared to go further than the state. And right now in Iran I don’t see that.
The government’s ideology and modus operandi is much more typical of the Arab world than it is of Iran’s. It’s almost like they’re occupying the country, even though they are Persians. Their style isn’t Iranian at all.
With Hezbollah, it’s different. They’ve managed to hook into the pathologies of much of the Arab world. And I’m sorry to say it’s not just a product of the regimes on top with sophisticated and cynical people below like in Poland and perhaps in Iran. The Arab world, I’m sorry to say, is not really like that. The people believe in this stuff just as much as the big men on top do.
MJT: They do. There’s lots of support in Syria for the government’s campaign of resistance.
Jonathan Spyer: Yes. Neither of us have been to Syria, but you and I both know someone who has
There really is a visceral hatred of Israel there. There is also a less visceral but nevertheless real hatred of America and the West. And also among the Palestinians here.
MJT: In Lebanon, of course, it’s much more complex.
Democracy rally in downtown Beirut, February 2009
Jonathan Spyer: Except in the south. In the south, Hezbollah holds power not only by force, but by consent. It doesn’t ask permission from people, but it has their consent.
MJT: It’s limited, though. I’ve talked to Lebanese Shias who support Hezbollah only so far as Hassan Nasrallah doesn’t impose an Iranian-style regime on the country.
A bar in East Beirut
Jonathan Spyer: Sure.
MJT: So Hezbollah’s support is limited and conditional. But it’s there.
Jonathan Spyer: And Hezbollah is smart enough to understand that.
MJT: Surely you saw uncovered women in the Hezbollah areas.
Jonathan Spyer: Of course.
MJT: But you don’t see that in Iran.
Jonathan Spyer: Right.
MJT: Hezbollah could force women to cover themselves, but it would lose some support if it did.
Jonathan Spyer: You see more Palestinians here wearing the headscarf than you do amongst the Hezbollah supporters in Lebanon. Go to any street in east Jerusalem, and most of the women will be wearing the headscarf. I was only in Beirut for a few days, but I saw far fewer headscarves there than I do here.
In the Muslim Quarter of Jerusalem
MJT: It’s strange, isn’t it?
Jonathan Spyer: In the early 1980s, before the first Intifada, it just wasn’t like
that in the Palestinian areas. You didn’t see many headscarves then.
MJT: They’re much more Islamicized now, aren’t they?
Jonathan Spyer: There’s a popular return to religion in many Middle Eastern societies. During the last couple of decades, after the failure of so many secular nationalist projects, people have turned back to what’s familiar to them. And in this part of the world, that’s religion.
MJT: The secular regimes have indeed failed spectacularly. There are a few exceptions—like Tunisia, for instance—but there aren’t very many.
Jonathan Spyer: In the Arab world, the failure of these regimes really does deserve to be described as spectacular.
MJT: Tunisia is a lovely Mediterranean country, but next door Libya is almost as hellish as North Korea.
Sidi Bou Said, Tunisia
Jonathan Spyer: Tunisia was the first Arab country to call for recognition of Israel. What’s really striking is that the Arab regimes with the biggest and most ambitious visions are the ones that failed most spectacularly.
MJT: The stronger the ideology, the more catastrophic the failure.
Jonathan Spyer: I think it’s hard for Arab intellectuals to come to terms with this. The big projects they most wanted to see are complete failures. I mean, none of them get excited about the Gulf emirates.
MJT: They’re not revolutionary.
Jonathan Spyer: And what they have to face up to now—and you know this very well—is that the three most powerful countries in the Middle East are not Arab.
MJT: Yes.
Jonathan Spyer: Israel, Turkey, and Iran. This is difficult for Arabs to deal with.
MJT: Many have a hard time even admitting it. I pointed this out years ago and got all kinds of grief in my inbox from Arabs who said I had no idea what I was talking about.
Jonathan Spyer: I’m sure.
MJT: They said I’m a stupid American who knows nothing of the Middle East, but they’re in denial. The only Arab country calling shots right now is Syria, and that’s only because Bashar Assad is a sidekick of the Persians.
Jonathan Spyer: A Palestinian friend of mine just the other day was telling me how Turkey and Iran are competing with each other to be the standard bearer of the Palestinian cause. Iran, with its sponsorship of Hamas and Hezbollah, and Turkey, with its flotillas, are the two countries with all the creative ideas. What do the Arab states have next to that? Nothing. Arabism’s flagship cause is championed by two non-Arab states.
How Syria fits into all this is one of the biggest divides here in Israel. There are those in the defense establishment who believe Assad’s championship of the resistance is entirely cynical and instrumental, and they want to pry him away from Iran.
MJT: His foreign policy is just instrumental and cynical, but I don’t believe for a minute he can be pried away from Iran.
Jonathan Spyer: I don’t either. And I’m glad that the people around the prime minister don’t buy it.
MJT: How do you know they don’t buy it?
Jonathan Spyer: Because I know some of them. The people around Netanyahu don’t believe this is possible.
MJT: I’m glad to hear that, because I’ve met lots of Israelis who do. And I think they’re crazy to think that. A lot of Israelis simply do not understand Syria.
Jonathan Spyer: Absolutely. They aren’t naïve people by any means. On the contrary. But they find it very hard to accept the irrational and ideological elements in Middle East politics. They themselves are not irrational or ideological. They’re extremely rational, and they assume everyone else is, as well. And so they make massive errors.
MJT: It’s a common problem all over the world. Lots of people assume everyone else is just like themselves. Americans often assume most people in the Arab world want what we have. I’ve met plenty of Arabs who believe the United States is involved in these dark conspiracies like their own governments are.
Jonathan Spyer: Yes. Arabs often think they’re being mature and sophisticated by talking this way, but in order to have a proper, grown-up, three-dimensional understanding of American foreign policy you need to understand that the idea of America is one of the things that informs American foreign policy. If you don’t understand that, you won’t be able to understand what the U.S. is doing and why.
And some of the planners and thinkers here in Israel still believe that everyone at the end of the day wants the same things they want. That isn’t the case, and you will make grave errors if you assume that it is. I’m not a fan of Netanyahu’s prime ministership down the line, but he does have people around him who understand the role ideas play in this region. It stops us from making the kinds of errors that, for example, Ehud Barak made in 2000.
MJT: I thought Barak’s withdrawal of Israeli troops from Lebanon was the right thing to do, and so was offering Arafat a Palestinian state. I supported both, and I still do even in hindsight, but we have to be honest about the results of those policies. War followed both, and Israelis will have to be extremely careful about withdrawing from the West Bank and the eastern half of Jerusalem.
A view of central Jerusalem from the West Bank
Jonathan Spyer: Absolutely. Many people still say we all know what the final settlement is going to look like, so we just need to get the two sides together and work it out. To that I say, “No. You don’t know what the final status is going to look like. The final status you have in mind is what you came up with by negotiating with yourself.”
I was an early skeptic of the Oslo peace process.
MJT: Why? I wasn’t, but you were right and I was wrong. What did you see then that I didn’t?
Jonathan Spyer: We all get things wrong in the Middle East, but that time I was right. I’m not saying I was some kind of genius—I was just a kid—but I did manage to call that one for whatever it’s worth.
All you had to do at the time was be interested enough in Arab political culture to listen carefully to what the other side said. That’s all it took. Once you did that, you’d have to be a moron not to see what was coming. Most people weren’t doing that.
Hezbollah erected a billboard on the border facing south into Israel showing a severed head being held by its hair. Text in Hebrew says, Sharon, don't forget. Your soldiers are still in Lebanon.
MJT: It’s the same in the U.S. today. Too many people don’t want to listen to what’s being said in the Arab world. A lot of it is deeply disturbing. I could be wrong, and I don’t like to psychoanalyze people, but I think that’s the problem. They’re afraid of the implications of all this crazy talk in the Middle East. So they pretend they don’t hear it, they explain it away, or they say it’s not serious.
Jonathan Spyer: I think that’s right.
MJT: I don’t like what I often hear either, and I don’t know what we should do about it, but I’m aware of it, and it’s there whether I like it or not.
Jonathan Spyer: That’s the bottom line. And from there you have to build a rational policy. You may not like it, but what else can you do?
Israelis were exhausted by a half-century of war before the peace process started. Every family in the country was shaped by it. There was an immense longing in the 1990s for peace, normalcy, and the good life. We had an intense will and longing for that. So when the Oslo crowd came to town and said, “You can be born again, you can have peace with the Arabs,” people bought into it.
They were idealists, and they were rationalists. If a note of triumphalism creeps into my voice, it’s only because I remember how arrogant they were during the 1990s when they thought they were right. They were extremely contemptuous toward everyone at the time who was trying to warn them. We were described as anachronisms from a different century.
MJT: That’s what I thought at the time.
Jonathan Spyer: Okay. Fine. It’s okay.
MJT: I was young. I wasn’t writing about the Middle East then.
Jonathan Spyer: Sure. It’s fine. Everyone gets this place wrong.
MJT: No one has ever been right consistently. I don’t think it’s possible.
Jonathan Spyer: It’s not.
MJT: This place is too weird.
Jonathan Spyer: [Laughs.] Yeah. It is.
MJT: It took me years to understand how this place works just on the most basic level because it’s so different from the part of the world I grew up in. I first had to stop assuming Arabs think like Americans. Then I had to learn how they think differently from Americans. I still don’t fully understand them, and I probably never will.
Jonathan Spyer: It’s hard. I used to try to figure it out by extrapolating from the Jewish experience, but it doesn’t work. Their response to events is totally different. It’s useless. You have to throw this sort of thinking into the trash or you can’t understand anything.
MJT: When the U.S. went into Iraq, I thought Iraqis would react the way I would have if I were Iraqi.
Jonathan Spyer: Sure.
MJT: But they didn’t. But I wasn’t only projecting. I knew they weren’t exactly like me. They’re Iraqis. I guess I expected the Arabs of Iraq to react the way the Kurds of Iraq did, and the Kurds reacted the way I would have reacted. But the Arab world isn’t America, and it is not Kurdistan.
A mural in Erbil, Iraqi Kurdistan, painted shortly after the United States overthrew Saddam Hussein
MJT: The Arab world has its own political culture, and it’s not like the political culture I know, or even like other Middle Eastern political cultures.
If the Palestinians had a Western political culture, the problem here could be resolved in ten minutes. If you Israelis were dealing with Canadians instead of Palestinians, you would have had peace a long time ago. And if the Palestinians were dealing with Canadians instead of Israelis, there would still be a conflict.
Jonathan Spyer: That’s exactly right. And that’s why it’s so frustrating sometimes when people say, “If only the two sides could sit down and talk.”
Israel has had its own moments of nationalist madness and score-settling and that sort of thing, but there’s less and less of it over time. Even within my living memory Israel has matured astonishingly. People here are a lot more disenchanted, a lot less likely to get carried away and follow political leaders.
MJT: I’ve gotten that way, too, recently, but it doesn’t come naturally. I am an optimist by nature, but the Middle East has taught me the pessimistic and tragic view of the world. I hate it, but it is what it is. A person can’t be an optimist for very long here without being unhinged from reality.
Jonathan Spyer: Cynicism isn’t a good thing, but neither is silly idealism. We have to walk a tightrope in order to keep this country viable. We have to be sufficiently skeptical and realistic, yet we also have to be open-minded and keyed into the 21st century high-tech society.
Tel Aviv, Israel
Jonathan Spyer: We have to maintain a balance in order to continue this project in the midst of people who hate us. And I think we’re doing quite well. We’re managing it. The North Korean government just has to sit on people. England has America looking after it if things go badly, so in the meantime the English can go on being post-modern. Here it’s tricky. We can’t just be Sparta. We have to be free-thinking people.
People here love life. You can feel this intense vitality in the air. It’s one of the reasons why people love it. I know people who don’t like this place politically, but they like being here. Nobody ever felt that way about East Germany.
MJT: It’s like that in Lebanon, too. It’s a crazy place with incredible problems, but it has this wonderful energy. Beirut does anyway.
Jonathan Spyer: Life crackles in the air there like it does here. I think that’s proof of health. And I don’t feel that in Western Europe.
MJT: I want to know what you think about an Iranian nuclear weapon. It’s everyone’s favorite topic to speculate on, though nobody really knows anything.
Jonathan Spyer: Nobody really knows, but I’m of the school which says if they get a nuke they will use it to become the dominant power in the region.
MJT: I think so, too.
Jonathan Spyer: I’m not of the school that says they’ll use it the next day against Israel.
MJT: I’m not of that school either, but I can’t dismiss it entirely.
Jonathan Spyer: I’m afraid none of us can dismiss it entirely. We would be rash indeed to dismiss it entirely. But if I’m reading the Iranian leadership right, they want to stick around on earth for a while and wield massive amounts of power. They want to build an oppressive system stretching all the way to the Mediterranean.
MJT: The guy who’s in charge of the Iranian branch of Hezbollah said that’s exactly what they want to do. They’re trying to build a new Persian Empire.
Jonathan Spyer: We hear this constant refrain from Iranians that they have a real civilization, that they aren’t like Jordan and Qatar. They’re more like China and India.
MJT: They’re right about that.
Jonathan Spyer: They are. And it’s a dangerous thing when people have a feeling of historical justification and want to bring the world to order again. We’ve had experiences with that. It’s a worrisome combination. I think those ideas wedded to nuclear weapons is unacceptable. And I’m of the opinion that either the West or Israel will come to the conclusion that a nuclear Iran is worse than the military action needed to stop it, and will therefore take action.
MJT: Even with Barack Obama as president? He’s not doing at all well in the United States at the moment, but he’s going to be around for a while.
Jonathan Spyer: I don’t want to speculate about Obama, but if there is a rational national-security set-up in the United States which can influence the president on matters of crucial national interest—and I assume there is something like that—my sense is that system will, at a certain point, kick in and say we can’t afford to have an Iran with nuclear weapons. At a certain point, I think we’ll get to that stage. It’s not the end of the world if we don’t, but we’ll be facing a massively changed Middle East, and a massively dangerous Middle East.
MJT: How do you think that would change the Middle East?
Jonathan Spyer: The Iranians will have a free hand for the kind of subversion they’re already engaged in. We could well see countries falling to Iranian subversion. More likely, at least in the short term, we’ll see countries accommodating themselves to the new big man on the block, and that will of course include the Gulf states.
Kuwait City
Jonathan Spyer: There are a certain number of countries in this region—and we could both name them—that will always accommodate themselves to the strong horse. They just have to figure out who the strong horse is. That’s why they get really nervous when they’re not sure who it is, and that’s why they’re terrified now. They don’t know who’s on the way up. Is America really a sunset power in this region, or is that a bunch of propaganda coming out of Tehran? America really does seem to be disengaging.
MJT: But to what extent, and for how long? We could turn that around in an instant tomorrow, and nobody would be able to stop us.
Jonathan Spyer: Yes.
MJT: Obama could say we tried to be nice, and it didn’t work.
Jonathan Spyer: The United States, at the end of the day, has core national interests in this region. And once the Americans understand that they really are threatened, they will have no choice but to be more assertive, regardless of the ideology of a particular president at a particular time.
MJT: The entire world has an interest in stability in this region.
Jonathan Spyer: Yes.
MJT: We’re just the only ones who can do much about it. So we’re stuck with the job whether we like it or not. And most of us don’t.
Jonathan Spyer: If the U.S. leaves a void here, the secondary powers in the region—Israel, Turkey, and Iran—will begin tussling with one another for dominance.
MJT: That could be extraordinarily dangerous.
Istanbul, Turkey
Jonathan Spyer: All three are young, hungry, countries. Jostling between these three won’t be pretty. So I think the U.S.—acting for the sake its own interests as well as those of the rest of the world—will have to reassert itself. Maybe I’m too optimistic. If that doesn’t happen, I think Israel will step up.
MJT: What is it that U.S. policy-makers don’t currently understand about this part of the world? If you could have their ears for five or ten minutes, what would you tell them?
Jonathan Spyer: I’d tell the current bunch in power that they need to ditch this sophomoric idea that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the key to the region’s malaise.
They need to get that out of their heads. That’s not what I’d want to talk about. That’s not even an adult conversation. Once we can clear that up, we can talk about something serious.
A perfect storm is brewing in the Middle East. We’re experiencing the convergence of two historical phenomena. The first is the rise of Iran, which we’ve already talked about. We have an ambitious ideological elite committed to radical Islam and the expansion of power. Second, in country after country in the Middle East, various forms of radical Islam are becoming the most popular and vivid forms of political expression. We have Hamas among the Palestinians, Hezbollah among the Shia of Lebanon, the Islamic Action Front in Jordan, and the Muslim Brothers in Egypt.
A portrait of a Hezbollah martyr killed in battle with Israel
We have an ideological wave from below with a powerful and potentially nuclear-armed sponsor on top. That’s the picture I’d want to place in the minds of the people in Washington. It’s the key regional dynamic through which most smaller processes have to be understood.
So if you like the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and want to talk about that, now we can tackle it in a rational grown-up way. The Palestinian national movement has split—most likely permanently—into two camps. And the most powerful of the two is that which results from this convergence of a popular Islamist wave on the one hand and a hegemonic state sponsor on the other. These two phenomena have completely transformed Palestinian politics. They have completely transformed the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. And they have completely transformed our options.
We could also talk about Lebanon. Or just about anything else. And again, we have to look at it through the prism I just described. That’s what I’d say to them if I had five minutes.
Jonathan Spyer is a senior research fellow at the Global Research in International Affairs Center, Inter-Disciplinary Center, Herzliya, Israel. He writes regularly for the Jerusalem Post. His first book, The Transforming Fire: The Rise of the Israel-Islamist Conflict
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Wow !
This a a huge piece of good reporting !
So many information are available with so many options possible.
I am so glad not to be in Bibi’s or Galant’s heels because many fateful decisions await them.
I do humbly think that obambi won’t move an inch against iran
His post modern leftist psyche will not allow his brain to act as a real US president to protect his contry .Even if democrats lose both houses in Nov 2010,the president keeps the autority over foreign affairs….
Impeachement process would take too long.Can General Petreus take command given obama’s failing ??
Let us hope Israeli firepower will be sufficent to delay the iranian nuclear program !
Good interview. I think I have to read it again, there’s too much information.
What I liked best is to understand that the mentality, the psychology of the region, of Arab culture, is not at all like Western (American or Israeli) culture. I say this all the time. Westerners just don’t get it, totally clueless.
So, I’ll read this again, it was worth waiting for.
But both you guys remind me of the joke, a conservative is a liberal who got mugged.
Welcome to reality – you just have a little further to go.
After first skim…
The dead SLA tank is a former IDF Tiran-5 T-55 (modified captured Syrian or Egyptian). It’s an early version of the Tiran-5, retaining the original 100mm main gun, but with the IDF added turret side storage sponsons and additional antenna mounting points.
FURIOUS
PAGE
FLIPPING,
R
Dang…moved to PJM and still no print-friendly button.
*sigh*
(Or am I blind and simply missed it?)
#5 Grantman.
I think you missed it. Look above guidelines.
In the little boxes, it says: Comment Share Icon for E mail Subscribe Icon for Print
Michael Totten.
You say Israel must be extremely careful about withdrawing from the West Bank & East Jerusalem.
Why should we withdraw? Given recent history, this would really be a stupid move.
How are we to define ”extremely careful” anyway? The BS about a de-militarized Palestinian state? International guarantees? U.S. guarantees?
I just realized several things reading this article. I am just beginning to understand my lack of understanding of the Middle East and the Arab view in particular. Michael has helped a lot with his blog as well as the excellent commentary from The GLORIA Centre from Johnathan and his colleague Barry Rubin. Despite my ignorance I am saddened by the realization that neither the current president nor his predecessor appear to understand it even as well as I do. I have the awful feeling that both have been blinded by their own very American mentality and by their very different ideologies. Perhaps with a bit of luck the current president will see the implications of his anti proliferation convictions and realize that being nice to ‘the other’ just isn’t cutting the mustard.
Awesome! Awesome! Awesome!
Though the entire interview was great, this thing stuck out at me:
“Jonathan Spyer: Life crackles in the air there [Lebanon] like it does here [Israel]. I think that’s proof of health. And I don’t feel that in Western Europe.”
I must say that I agree 100% and I’ve been saying this for years. I’ve lived for 3 months in London and 6 months in Madrid (and I’ve visited almost every country in Western Europe).
You walk around these beautiful cities with majestic cathedrals and stunning and old architecture, cobblestone streets…everything should be perfect, but you feel something dead.
When I was living in Madrid (which is a beautiful city and in which I still have many friends), I always felt that there was no soul. I’d wander the streets and though everything was physically intact (more or less), it was as if the city’s spirit had been long dead, and psychologically it felt like the city was in ruins. I live in New York, which is not as beautiful as most European cities (though we have our own charm =), but you can still *feel* the soul.
In most of Europe, I just feel like the people are an empty shell. They all berate their pasts and traditions (though, I honestly feel they just are embarrassed they lost their top place in the world…after long debates with many European leftists, I often found they harbored some deep patriotic and/or even nationalist sentiments (though they’d never directly admit it, and might not even consciously realize it)).
I do love Europe and I hope it snaps out of it soon. But I fully agree with Jonathan Spyer’s assessment.
The Obama Administration’s policy of caving in to any who will use force (save Israel) is a sure way of bringing about peace and stability in the Middle East (for values of peace and stability that include uncontrolled exchanges of thermonuclear weapons).
Good Interview, but disagree that Barak did a good thing offering the farm in 2000 to Arafat, and running from Lebanon. Weakness by Barak and other Israeli leaders and the EU and US Israeli Left Wing interference in Israeli foreign policy has done more damage to the prospects of Peace than even Iran. The rush to get a bad deal at any cost and the constant appeasement to outside pressure has destroyed Israel’s deterrence factor causing the rise of Iranian power and delegtimazation of Israel across the globe. And because of this now the chance of War is growing.
http://ralphsrant1.blogspot.com
Good Interview, but disagree that Barak did a good thing offering the farm in 2000 to Arafat, and running from Lebanon. Weakness by Barak and other Israeli leaders and the EU and US Israeli Left Wing interference in Israeli foreign policy has done more damage to the prospects of Peace than even Iran. The rush to get a bad deal at any cost and the constant appeasement to outside pressure has destroyed Israel’s deterrence factor causing the rise of Iranian power and delegtimazation of Israel across the globe. And because of this now the chance of War is growing
Mr. Totten to put it mildly, your interview with Jonathan Spyer was excellent. It is always a pleasure to read an article which is informed, historically accurate, and deeply insightful prepared by an expert writer. Mr. Totten you have done a wonderful job here aided of course by the expert and well researched commentary of one of the leading Middle East pundits, Jonathan Spyer.
I do have some areas of disagreement with Mr. Spyer. I have lived in the Disputed Territories here in Israel for almost 30 years and have seen and experienced the violent and duplicitous reality of the Arab world up close and personal as they say, and I have formed my own opinions. But Mr. Spyer’s real courage in travelling to Southern Lebanon is immense, and serves to reinforce the veracity of his eye witness account and strengthen the basis for his well thought out and expressed ideas and opinions.
Mr. Totten and Mr. Spyer you both have my deepest thanks for an excellent and extremely helpful first hand exploration of the very difficult and dangerous area of Northern Israel and Southern Lebanon.
Unfortunately, Benjamin Speyer and MJTotten, like so many people, Israelis and non-Israelis have fallen for the Soviet propaganda that some Arabs are “Palestinian.” This fiction was concocted by the Soviet Union and Gamal Nasser in Cairo in 1964, where they invented the “Palestine Liberation Organization” with all the phony history of calling some Arabs “Palestinian.”
The only “Palestinians” are the Jews. “Palestine” was synonymous with “land of the Jews” or the “Holy Land” (Jesus having been a Jew) and “Palestinian” with “Jew” from 135 A.D., when the Roman Emperor Hadrian changed the name of Judea to “Palestina,” and outlawed Judaism, in order to eradicate all memory of Judea and the Jews, after he had defeated the last Jewish rebellion under Bar Kochba. That is why the Zionists wanted the “Palestine Mandate” and Great Britain was awarded the “Palestine Mandate” to be the “homeland of the Jews” after World War I.
The objection to Israel from the Arabs is purely religious, Mohammedans objecting to a Jewish state. There would be peace between Israel and the Arabs immediately if the Arabs stopped waging war against it. The deluded self-destructive Israeli “left”, loyal as ever to the old Soviet line against Israel, imagines that territorial concessions will make the Arabs stop attacking them – but these concessions have only weakened Israel. Calling Judea and Samaria “the West Bank” perpetuates these delusions. And calling Arabs “Palestinians,” with phony demands for a “Palestinian state” – not meaning Israel – increases the dangers to Israel.
Lebanon was once the ‘Paris of the Middle East’.
It has survived many conquests; Has it any chance of
freeing itself from the influence of Syria and Iran ?
Terry, I want you and Adina to form a political party and help save us from ourselves. I’ll do what I can to help, but for the next few years I will have to focus on making a living. But I’ll volunteer to write propaganda.
Michael Totten, thanks for the illumination you have provided Americans about the ‘troubled region.’ Thank you.
Is the current situation in South Lebanon due to any extent by that being the region that was invaded by Israel? At one time, I seem to recall, the Israelis called their border with Lebanon “the good fence” because it was far safer than their borders with their other neighbors.
When the Israelis invaded the locals welcomed them with sweets because they were chasing out the detested Palestinians. The Amal leader Nabih Berri was quoted as saying “the Israelis had a 90% chance to be the friends of the Shiites” (implying that they had made mistakes and turned the Shiites against them when they didn’t need to). My (Christian) Lebanese friends were overjoyed when Israel invaded.
Did Israel make serious avoidable errors? Could this situation have turned out much differently with different policies?
(To avoid any misunderstanding: I am not criticizing Israel. I staunchly support Israel. I firmly believe they must take stern action to protect themselves in an extremely dangerous neighborhood.)
If Jonathan Spyer had been identified somehow as an Israeli, he would have been taken prisoner, and the Israeli government would have been forced to negotiate another major prisoner release.
Did Mr. Spyer think for one moment of those consequences?
Gerry raises a very important point about the possibility of Jonathan Spyer being captured and the potential outcome of that event.
And I am sure that Mr. Spyer took that very real possibility into account and made every effort to prevent his being discovered and caught by either the Lebanese authorities or God forbid, the Hizballa terrorists.
Unfortunately the only way to find out what is happening in Hizballa-land in South Lebanon is to visit the area in person and this is precisely what Mr. Spyer had to do.
As an Israeli Jew I am very concerned at the possibility of another one sided and dangerous prisoner exchange with Arab terrorists, but the observations and information that Mr. Spyer managed to bring back with him was worth it’s weight in diamonds, and even the possibility of a one sided Israeli prisoner exchange.
Absolutely fascinating. I would really like more insight into the Arab mindset and pathology please. It was raised but not explained, Mike. I am making a donation, please expand on that topic. We need to understand the thinking of the arab peoples.
Absolutely an incredible interview, MJT, I think one of your best ever, and very well worth the wait. Excellent info, insights and analyses from you and Mr. Spyer, and many quotables.
And he’s right, Israel feels vibrant, unlike any other place I’ve been.
I am so glad you are ‘our’ journalist.
#16 Larry in the Silicon.
Larry, every entrenched interest group in the country would be against me if I went into politics here. I’d end up being deported.
Samizdat: I would really like more insight into the Arab mindset and pathology please. It was raised but not explained, Mike. I am making a donation, please expand on that topic. We need to understand the thinking of the arab peoples.
Thanks for donating.
There is no short answer to that question, especially not in the comments section.
If you want a really terrific long answer, read The Strong Horse: Power, Politics, and the Clash of Arab Civilizations by Lee Smith. He’s a mutual friend of mine and Jonathan Spyer’s. Everyone who wants to understand the Middle East needs to read that.
Samizdat,
I will get into that on the main page later where I have the time and the space.
@Terry, Eilat.
You sound like me.
Let’s face it; the Arabs have been a complete and utter failure in the modern world. Despite sitting on vast quantities of oil, there has been practically no civilization to come out of the trillions that have been made. As much as they demonize the West, the vast majority would be in Omaha (or Manchester or Milan) tomorrow if given the chance. Depending on how you count them, there are already between 21 and 24 Arab states where repression is the norm and freedom rare. Officially sanctioning a Palestinian state would not change the order of the day for the better one iota, and would most probably strengthen the hand of Islamists in the region.
I’ll admit that understanding the Arab mindset is not easy at all, but that is no excuse for the criminally negligent attempts of Western leaders to placate the Arab world with platitudes and development money that will largely wind up in the hands of the well connected. One thing we could certainly do is to stop taking organizations like the UN seriously since it largely serves to act on Arab pathologies. I think it is time we stop listening to the ranting, stop looking for someone else to blame, and let them know that they are backwards and we are not going to pay for it anymore. Tell them to build this Palestinian state first, and then we can negotiate with it. Let’s see if they are as keen on construction as destruction.
Truth be told, in 50 years from now, I wonder if we will still be tiptoeing around the fact that Arabs still have not adjusted to the modern world, are still living under extreme repression, and still blaming someone else for it?
I hear you, Terry. They’d probably make you swim to Cyprus. Personally, I can’t swim more than about a quarter-mile anymore. I’d have to ride a dolphin.
The NY Times is going overboard to attack anyone who opposes the 911 Victory Mosque.
Today’s comment section is filled with the most hateful comments against such Americans especially focusing on Pam Geller and Robert Spencer.
It is a virtual feeding frenzy.
They are terrified that Americans are speaking out against the Muslim attempt to profane one of our most sacred sites.
http://jewishdailyreport.wordpress.com/2010/08/25/media-feeding-frenzy-against-anti-jihad-mosque-americans/
What a great interview!!! I scour multiple news and opinion websites on a daily basis and read countless articles. Nowhere, nowhere do I find such informative, high caliber and eye-opening articles as I do here.
Since I’m such an avid reader, I tend to know a lot about almost every topic. Perhaps that’s why I’m most appreciative when someone comes along and shows me that I don’t know notin’ yet!
Thank you.
Dear Larry and Terry,
The most important thing you must learn about Israel and our political system is that it is controlled by about twenty very wealthy and influential families by their direct control of the two major banks HaPoalim and Leumi, and the fifteen or so major monopolies.
These largely Left wing elitist families practically control all the news media, print and electronic, radio and television, as well as all, and I mean all of the Israeli political parties and their policy platforms. They also enjoy enormous influence over the Israeli justice system, including choosing the judges of the Israeli Supreme Court and most of the District Courts.
This means, as a practical matter, that these Left wing European oriented Israeli elites can promote or prevent anyone or any group of Israelis from expressing an opinion or initiating an program they happen to dislike. They also control up to about 80% of Israel’s economy, outside of the Hi Tech area, and thus can and do mobilize employers to support whatever they wish.
So Larry or Terry run for office, espouse Nationalist opinions, try to organize a political movement, and the system in place won’t even bother with confronting you, they’ll just make everybody ignore you.
Why do you guys think the looney Left has enjoyed so much power and influence in Israel for so long anyway?
Great interview. Quite informative.
Hope that the book would be as informative.
Pathena
It is historical truth that people who did not have feel themselves nation in time may become nation and feel the members of separate, unique nationality. Palestinians did not feel themselves separate from other members of Ottoman empire, their allegiance was first to their tribe and village. Also the majority of them did not feel that they are a members of separate nation or members of separate nationality – Palestinian nationality – before WWII. You may be even right that Gamal Nasser concocted the fiction of “Palestinian nation” even though I do not agree with that statement.. Nevertheless although Palestinian nation may have been the fiction then, it is no longer fiction now. Palestinians are separate nation and although I think some of them give their allegiance to umma first nevertheless majority of them feel that they are a members of separate nationality and separate nation..
We have to see what is real and not what we prefer to be real.
“I would really like more insight into the Arab mindset and pathology please”
Pretty simple my friends….
Violence.
Artificial theatrical bravado in all things they claim, and do.
Self centered, childish, incompetent, self loathing
Violence, violence and more violence.
Lie about EVERYTHING, then Lie about the lies
Their Mohammadeen idiology has destroyed them. They are psychologically and culturally damaged beyond repair. They cannot be dealt with by the West, using Western thoughts, ideas and objectives.
Thier perpetual “victimology” and insatiable, dysfunctional need to prove their narrative of “unprecidented crimes” against them means they can never co-habitate with modern, productive, open and honest societies.
They are the source and architect of all their own miseries, but like all junkies, they can never admit this. Deep inside, they know the truth, but the shame of it makes them volitile, defensive, and angry because they KNOW we KNOW the deal, and it humiliates them.
They would rather go up in flames than admit they are wrong, and need OUR help, to become useful, decent societies.
Unless and untill we have a complete, total physical/military/social/spiritual/societal level victory over them, and re-make them in a western image ala’ WW2 Japan, they will never change themselves.
What a refreshing and interesting interview. Spyer speaks with a reasoned and intelligent voice. He seems to hold no hatred, even against those who fired on him in battle and killed one of his comrades. He wants to understand and objectively analyze the situation as it really is. He risked his life to get what information he could.
It is very instructive to go to the left leaning websites and read the comments from the anti-Israel crowd. The posts are consistently emotional and peppered with the same old buzzwords. They are devoid of factual analysis. If confronted with a glaring inconsistency they just spout the same old canards (apartheid, illegal stealing land grabbing etc) and dismiss whatever you have to say, even if you are supporting your argument with arab media or lefty Israeli sources as ‘propaganda’.
Spyer and others like him cannot afford such emotional clap-trap. Their life is on the line. In the end that will make the difference. Ask any investment advisor with experience and they will tell you the same thing.
Spindok
Ken Besig: Why do you guys think the looney Left has enjoyed so much power and influence in Israel for so long anyway?
Good grief. The Israeli left has been all but obliterated. You don’t think Ariel Sharon and Benjamin Netanyahu are leftists, do you? The left hasn’t been in charge of Israel since Oslo collapsed.
The Root: They are psychologically and culturally damaged beyond repair.
No they aren’t. Nobody is. I’ve actually lived in an Arab country and have many friends there. You don’t understand them nearly as well as you think you do.
Unless and untill we have a complete, total physical/military/social/spiritual/societal level victory over them, and re-make them in a western image ala’ WW2 Japan, they will never change themselves.
That’s not going to happen, yet people do change.
Michael, I have read Lee Smith’s book The Strong Horse (mentioned @ 23) and I agree it’s an excellent work for understanding the ME.
“Jonathan Spyer: I’m afraid none of us can dismiss it [Iranian nuclear attack on Israel] entirely. We would be rash indeed to dismiss it entirely. But if I’m reading the Iranian leadership right, they want to stick around on earth for a while and wield massive amounts of power. They want to build an oppressive system stretching all the way to the Mediterranean.”
I believe Jonathan Spyer got this one right. Iran is just big show with or without nuke in its hand. Even more so, with nuke Iran will become much less controversial for the fear of being misinterpreted.
@Michael Totten,
Israeli left is still there ,it just morphed
It succeeded to invade the spirits of members from kadima and even from likud to a lesser extent
“Unless and untill we have a complete, total physical/military/social/spiritual/societal level victory over them, and re-make them in a western image ala’ WW2 Japan, they will never change themselves.
That’s not going to happen, yet people do change.”
If they have options ,yes but it is not happening !
Should western countries give more media exposure to Wafa Sultan,Ibn Waraq,Hirsi Ali, it might give some impetus to reopening “ishtihad gates” and later on, to religious reforms.But on the contrary,muslim reformists are hunted down and must live under police protection in western countries.Only ichtihad would allow a sweetening of the harshest medina surates,a long overdue process who might heal the tear between islam and other faiths.
# 18, Gerry
When people do risky or dangerous things for fun or work in America, they usually sign a “waiver”, which basically says that the person understands the risks of parachuting/river rafting/bungee jumping, etc., and that the company sponsoring the event should not be held liable for their death or any other injuries resulting from the planned adventure.
Could the Israeli government set up a waiver for citizens who need or want to explore unfriendly territories? The current arrangement seems like a huge burden for the Israeli government and for Israelis who may advertently or inadvertenly get into trouble.
M. Robet:
“Lebanon was once the ‘Paris of the Middle East’.
It has survived many conquests; Has it any chance of
freeing itself from the influence of Syria and Iran?”
Well, right after Lebanese will settle all their parking problems.
Lebanon is a state, which is yet to become.
Ken Bolland,
I am not sure, but here is my opinion. Israelis and Lebanese South were friends until Iran introduced Hezbollah. After that nothing mattered.
A few points:
1) While Jonathan is very smart (so is Michael), I agree that his actions were irresponsible. He placed the lives of many Israelis indirectly at risk. How? Should he have been found out and captured, then in the end Israel would have probably released several blood-on-their-hands murderers to get him back (assuming Jonathan has some connections);
2) Michael, individual Arabs are not without hope, though the brainwashing of many on the subject of Israel makes them hopeless and enemies, from an Israeli point of view. And their Jew-hatred is pretty deep;
3) I don’t share the ‘optimism’ about Iran and the bomb, and have expressed my views, FWIW, on Michael Ledeen’s article talkbacks. Now we have people rationalizing living with an Iranian empire stretching from Teheran to basically the outskirts of Haifa. A nuked-up empire. Sorry, this will lead to disaster in a relatively short time.
4) The Israeli ‘Left’ is dead on a mass, popular basis. But it has indeed ‘morphed’ in a certain way, as suggested. That is, the ‘elites’ are not willing to acknowledge openly the insights of the right wing, and still stereotype the national-religious camp in pretty junky ways. There are also the abuses of the Shabak’s ‘Jewish Department.’ As with Mr. Pearlman.
5) Okay, Ken. If I form a party, it will be ‘mifleget hatikva ve’ha’yeush’ or ‘Eiynayim la’ofek, rosh bakir’….or something. You can still join, though.
If you think the Israeli Left has been obliterated, you should listen to the news broadcasts of Israel Channel’s One, Two, or Ten, or pick a copy of Yediot Achronot or Maariv and read the Leftist crap they continue to publish.
If you think the Israeli Left is gone then you haven’t seen and listened to any Israeli talks shows lately, they all toe the extreme Leftist line.
Indeed, the Israeli Left is so widespread and pernicious among Israeli university professors and teachers that there is now a Nationalist group explicitly established to expose them and their anti Israel, anti Zionist, and pro Palestinian agenda.
Right now the Israeli Defense Minister is Ehud Barak, an extreme Leftist ideologue, the upper echelons of the IDF is dominated by Left wing radicals, as is the Police and the Courts.
No Sharon wasn’t Left wing he was just a crook who managed to avoid punishment for his crimes by throwing a bone called the Sharon Disengagement from Gaza to the Left to get them off his back.
Don’t kid yourself, the Left now calls itself Kadima and is trying to fool the Israeli electorate into thinking that it has become Centrist and moderate. But the truth is that the Israeli Left is just as radical as ever and is just biding it’s time until the next election. Just keep in mind that Olmert and Livni of Kadima offered even more to the Palestinians than Ehud Barak did at Camp David in 2000.
“They [Arabs] are psychologically and culturally damaged beyond repair.”
Had you been talking about Jews I would’ve called you an anti-Semite.
What a load of BS.
#25 Jacob – As a whole, I think you made some very good observations in your post. Yes, for whatever reasons, the Arab countries in general have had a hard time adjusting to what is the best of the modern world. And the U.N. makes the world worse, not better. Kudos to your post.
“If the Palestinians had a Western political culture, the problem here could be resolved in ten minutes. If you Israelis were dealing with Canadians instead of Palestinians, you would have had peace a long time ago. And if the Palestinians were dealing with Canadians instead of Israelis, there would still be a conflict.”
Money quote!
MJT: “Good grief. The Israeli left has been all but obliterated.”
Cannot argue due to lock of experience, but I do not think so. It requires decades to fix. Practically new generation will have to be raised solely for this purpose.
Arabs are psychologically damaged, but they aren’t beyond repair. I am a person who was been “repaired”. Its just an issue of combating the disinformation in the Middle East. The United States and Israel have done a horrible job in that department. For example, Israel’s MFA’s Arabic website is one of the ugliest websites I’ve ever seen.
Great interview as always Mr. Totten. I’d be curious for Spyer’s take on any strategic inferences he might have arising from Russia’s role and purpose in all this. I find this to be a strangely under-discussed relationship. Sort of raises the old theory that Khruschev put MRBMs in Cuba not to nuke the USA but to be traded away for a guarantee of Castro’s revolution and a Soviet colony off the coast of Florida. The Russians are very, very strategically cunning, and you can bet they haven’t been exploiting Iranian fanaticism since 1998 (at least) merely because they want to evict the USA from the ME and hand it to the Iranian Revolution. And yet – when Khamenei is in serious trouble, Ahmadinejad evacuates to Moscow; when HAMAS needs diplomatic cover, next day there’s a pic of what’s name and Putin on a Russian tarmac. Seems like a rich subject for ME watchers.
Heh, I really did suspect that MJT’s response to Ken Besig and others was coming… Anyone – try this – go to Pajamas Media blog post “Middle East Coexistence? On Aisle Two, Next to the Cornflakes” by Lenny and Shellie Ben-David. Then go to Ken Besig’s comment #16. In the United States, this is the type of comment, the type of mind-set that one would expect to find on a neo-Nazi, Ku Klux Klan or Aryan Nations type of website. Don’t get me wrong, Mr. Besig and I probably agree on the great majority of issues regarding Israel and its neighbors. I would love to see Israel destroy Hamas, Hezbollah and other Islamofascist entities, at almost any cost. I favor the U.S. attacking Iran instead of Israel. But it’s in that final, maybe 10%, that Mr. Besig (and others) goes full circle and becomes like his enemies.
Look at it this way – if there is nobody to the left of you or nobody to the right of you, you may be in the company of extremists.
“…..War followed both, and Israelis will have to be extremely careful about withdrawing from the West Bank and the eastern half of Jerusalem….”
Michael, the day Israel gives up part of Jerusalem is the day Israel has given up her confidence in her right to exist. Don’t write like you know that is going to happen and it’s only a matter of when. It could happen, but you don’t know, and you shouldn’t wish it. Justice and self-determination for Palestinians do not require a Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem.
Yehudit: Don’t write like you know that is going to happen
I’m not. I don’t know if it will happen or not, nor do I know if it should. I certainly don’t think it should happen today, and I’ll explain why at great length on the front page in the near future.
@Ali.
I agree; repair is possible, though I don’t think it will happen on a large scale anytime soon. I have had quite a bit of contact with Arabs, some who live in the West and some who do not. I saw a 10 year resident of a Western country who has two PhD’s reduced to monosyllabic idiocy at the mere mention of the word “Israel.” In fact, this person firmly believes that the US, Britain, and France fought against the Arab armies between 47 and 49 to establish a Jewish state in the Middle East solely to embarrass the Arabs. When I politely asked him to find one picture showing American soldiers fighting to establish a Jewish state at the end of the mandate, he looked completely surprised. He had seen a special about this insult to the Arabs on Al-Jazeera. To him this was common knowledge. Just like it was common knowledge to many in Morocco that Bill Clinton was Berber, and that he often spoke Berber in the White House. Just like many Iraqis believed that a joint CIA-Mossad plot blew up the dome of the Askariya Mosque in Samarra. Many people in the Middle East believe that virtually every major public figure in the West, from Sarkozy to George Bush are secret Jews. There is no problem too big or too small that it cannot be blamed on the West in general or on America and Israel specifically. And the best thing is, not one shred of evidence is ever required.
I can stop there. Frankly, I don’t see any possible way to combat the massive amount of disinformation/misinformation in the Arabic world effectively. Individually, I think there are many people in and from the Arab world that have shaken off the blinders so to speak. As far as any major cultural shifts pointing in that directions, I don’t really see it happening anytime soon, and I don’t think we can do a lot to change it. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try, and we have not done the best job at that, as you pointed out. But having a major impact on Arab culture is, I’m afraid, beyond our ability. My guess is that modernity will continue to pass the Arabs by for the foreseeable future as the region sinks further into fundamentalism as a way to combat the shame brought on by the failure to succeed in the modern world.
I enjoyed the interview and agree that Iran is likely not in any rush to use nukes, should they obtain them, on Israel. This however does not mean that a whole lot of misery won’t result from the mad mullahs vastly upgrading their capability to terrorize. As for America acting to keep Iran from making this upgrade, the DOTUS will almost certainly have to be deposed first. Not that this is any sort of revelation to those who have been following U.S. politics over the last year and a half.
MJT
Excellent interview. You both gave me a lot to think about. Differentiating Arab Muslims from Non-Arab Muslims is something almost everyone misses or ignores.For what it is worth I agree that the Palestinians are an issue, but not the most serious issue. Thanks again for the food for thought.
I second the comment about withdrawing from the west bank and east jerusalem. Simply don’t do it. Guarantees from the US, so long as there is an electorate capable of electing an Obama to the presidency, to paraphrase Vice President James Garner, “isn’t worth a bucket of piss…”
And I’m an American telling you this. Israelis may be getting sober and pragmatic, finally, about peace as a goal to be sought, but their liberal jewish bretheren here in the US are not, for the most part. It’s still a pollyannish kook farm here, hence all the major media fawning over the Victory Mosque at Ground Zero and its Imam. Despite 70% popular opposition to the mosque, the elites will make the mosque so and will not learn their lesson even when the first attack happens from islamists trained at the “cultural center”.
#8…Lorenz Gude…
Re: your…..”Perhaps with a bit of luck the current president will see the implications of his anti-proliferation convictions and realize that being nice to ‘the other’ just isn’t cutting the mustard.”
I hope you’re right, but I see Obama completely outclassed and flummoxed by international events and surrounded by naifs who’re hoping they can hang on inside his administration just long enough to get out and write a book, or something. He thinks he’s cosmopolitan, with a half-black, short childhood in South East Asia, short life in Hawaii, law professor, Chicago activist. One term U.S. Senator, snookered his way into being elected President. Absolutely dizzying ascent. He’s still reeling. So are we, alas.
Jonathan Speyer is most certainly a very interesting man….read every word of his very carefully and agree generally with his analyses; but I think that we Americans will never be able shed our constrained and provincial thinking on the West/Central Asia theater. We Americans are simply not capable of the subtleties required to deal with these slippery ephemeral personalities and their wracked, artificially created borders.
I don’t know that that’s completely bad. I tend to be pessimistic because I see that any effort we exert in that complex continent will be short lived. The past efforts ( OK, machinations) of the most urbane, experienced negotiators of many nationalities since 1948, albeit with a bewildering array of motives and interests, have not yielded the least stability in that bloody cauldron. There is no light emerging over the horizon.
I believe America, with our own growing internal problems, should quarantine the Iran/Paki/Afghan/Iraqi/Syrian area and deal with their murderous factions from off shore…..all the while supporting Israel without hesitation.
The effecting of any lasting changes via that “Hearts and Minds” concept is a colossal waste of our blood, time and treasure….yielding nothing but more enmity. Look at South East Asia today….where this “Hearts and Minds” idea was applied in the 1960′s. I was there then…I saw those local folks then.
….Lorenz Gude..I don’t see Obama
I bow before Mr. Spyer and his balls of solid titanium.
54. Forgotton Man
“Differentiating Arab Muslims from Non-Arab Muslims is something almost everyone misses or ignores.”
Sorry, I’m not so good at differentiating:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjS0Novt3X4
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&newspaperUserId=27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3a3b0c2036-5073-4b91-ad19-a6ee758a518c&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest
We better reload wisely….
A really fascinating interview that shed some real light onto the quagmire of southern Lebanon, an Iranian. canton, it appears… truly illuminating.
I do agree as well with much of what Mr. Spyer says.
The left in the US is starting to lose its teeth and their golden boy is being shown as gold-plated.
The Israeli left needs to be defanged but I’m not sure how one would do that. I leave it to others who are closer to the issue.
The US unfortunately has been outmanoeuvered in the middle east, not because they play chess badly, but because they don’t even know the game they’re playing nor the rules.
The problems I feel are multiple in this administration, from people who have had little real world knowledge and experience making them amateurs, to being political correct and afraid of confrontation. The concept of ruthlessness is not part of the administrations lexicon yet one really needs it. Even if one never is ruthless the other side needs to know that one can be utterly ruthless instead of just bumbling.
I think right now many middle eastern rulers view the west as thinkers instead of doers; able to talk your head off but unwilling to act on their beliefs; able to make excuses and explain away the vilest actions and turn around with a “Kick Me” sign on their back.
With respect to Arab feelings towards the West, that can be turned around too but it will take a major reeducation effort starting with the dismantling of UNWRA and the rewriting of Arab school texts.
We’re looking at generations here and unfortunately the Left will complain that we are interfering with their indigenous culture and religion. The example of the left’s attitude towards the physical and psychological abuse of women and gays in Muslim society is quite illustrative here. And what’s more appalling is that they don’t even realize their hypocrisy!
Enough for now.
Wow! (again). Another great interview.
“The people most prepared to wade up to their knees in blood end up holding on in revolutionary contexts.”
This is the key. The side most willing AND able to kill, will be the Strong Horse.
The US is most able, least willing.
Israel is quite able, quite unwilling — so far.
Hezbollah is not so able, but very, very willing.
Iran pretty able, and pretty willing even against its own people. Iran getting a nuke makes them far more able.
Better peace prospects would really come if there was more economic business transactions between Israel and the Arabs — but Jew Hate (& Success Hate) won’t ever be gone. “Aid” to Arabs should be in the form of loan/equity (with Islamic non-interest financing) investments in businesses.
Arabs involved in generating wealth thru business will be more realistic about dealing with customers & suppliers & Jews.
Before placing laurel wreaths upon the interviewees’ brow it may be informing to look at another, previous, opinion that was proffered on Obama. While the rest of us were trying to portray Obama accurately there were some in the media who were swooning at the prospect of an Obama presidency.
Was Mr. Spyer among them? You decide.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jul/24/barackobama.israelandthepalestinians
Be sure to let us know, Menachem, if you have anything constructive to add in the future.
Yesjb, the Left is complex and at the fringe the curvature of political space connects extremes with extremes. Let’s not forget there are dangerous people to the Left and Right of us. If not, then you’re probably not in the political center.
There are white Right Wing Christian supremacists who find comfort in the message of the Neostrasserist Left. There are xenophobic and isolationist Right Wingers whose political grandfathers stood against US entry into to WW2 and legal immigration. Only in the last decade have they become pro Israel while others we have identified even here remain antisemitic and certainly anti-Zionist with there own blogs of slander. These people sense some strange fraternity in the anti-war Left and their beyond-Chomskian ideas. And so on and so on.
Recently, Daily Mailer revealed email between some liberal journalists. It was clear they wanted to bury Wright stories and foster racial anger against Republicans. We can see them scrambling now over the issue of the Mosque while they seek in op-eds our withdrawal from Afghanistan and Iraq. They want the military down-sized and even more domestic spending and lending.
The political center has its own mentality. I think they see the foreign and domestic situations are dangerous, our needed hardware many. They see a sluggish economy with no psychological inspiration on the horizon and instead a series of escalating tensions that could shake further American leadership, prosperity and national security.
Obama is stubborn. He hoping these “talks” can be the start of success. He is hoping some kind of impossible to impliment peace plan can move top down through the Muslim world and moderate it. He thinks his sanctions will squeeze Iran. Israel has the better hand in that Hamas and Iran, Hizb’Allah and even AQ see the necessity of ruining the “talks”. All Israel needs to do is wait. If Muslims sink Obama’s boat, Iran will be blamed. The talks collapse. The hammer revealed. If peace can really be brokered, then Israel wins in detaching Iranian insanity to the issue of Palestine.
Back on earth, I assume the DOD is making elaborate contingencies for the weapons that face them in the Gulf. I assume the CIA is making plans to track the terror operations that escalation will trigger. This is a game of chess now against the clock and the defective mindsets of the Mullahs.
For a country at the edge, I am amazed of the poor Israeli economic stewardship. What Israel probably wasted in graft last year could produce real hyper velocity products. A more productive labor market could supply real sling shots and trumpets. I don’t exactly see an existential urgency in the economy of Israel.
I assume Iran is working at high speed to build a bomb. They don’t need to assemble one right now, just create the diversity of manufacturing and facilities for the weapons they will need to build. They want to be the strongest power in the ME. They are more creative than NK with far more friends. The question is whether we can deploy yet to be perfected weapon systems that would give us clear tactical superiority, before Iran builds a bomb and the means to deliver it. How about 100 advanced stealthy MOABS capable of mach 10 impacts.
The Mid term elections will decrease the Left’s power. It will fracture more with some moving back towards center to bolster the claims in 2012. Obama is caught in this predictable scissor. As the narrative pendulum swings Right, we will see a battle over words. For the center, its the economy stupid, security and a revival of the American Spirit.
If the Right’s narrative doesn’t carry enough gravitas, smarts and compromise the center requires, around we will go again…….further away from ending the conflicts before us in our favor.
2012 will be the cusp of hegemonies. If we make it that far without a major escalation.
Michael & Jonathan,
I very much enjoyed your exchange.
Michael, do you know the Mar Mikhael Church in the Beirut suburb of Chiya? It is where Maronite politician Michel Aoun and Hizbullah chief Hasan Nasrallah met in early 2006 to sign an MOU. Years ago Chiya was a mostly Christian area, but today many Shia Muslims live there. A couple of years ago, my wife took my young daughters to Mar Mikhael for Palm Sunday Mass. At a certain point, the priest exited the church leading the congregration on a circumnavigation of the building, re-enacting Christ’s entry into Jerusalem. The Shia women in the neighborhood stood along the way, ululating (the joyful kind, like at a wedding) and tossing rice. Think about that scene. Only in Lebanon.
“Differentiating Arab Muslims from Non-Arab Muslims is something almost everyone misses or ignores.”
That differentiation misses the more important differentiation between Muslims who take orthodox versions of Islam seriously, and those who don’t. This second differentiation is unfortunately often rather difficult due to misunderstandings and dishonesty.
There is no shortage of non-Arab Muslims in Nigeria, Turkey, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, India, Indonesia and in Europe and in the US and Canada and Australia and…who take Islam very seriously and strive to follow the “perfect-for-all-time” example of their prophet. There are also some Muslims in all of the aforementioned places, as well as (although fewer probably) in Arab states, with a mellower or idiosyncratic belief system. However, the imams and mosques and masjids, unsurprisingly, tend to be more orthodox rather than less orthodox than the idiosyncratic, whatever the sect, and whatever the geography.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFv0SwySHg0&feature=player_embedded
While we’re commenting, and no Jews involved.
===
Max – Make no assumptions about Langley. They can’t seem to find al-Q, even when the dead bodies are handed to them.
S.A.D.,
R
#66
del, to those non-Arab people, the orthodox version of Islam isn’t actually “orthodox”, if by orthodox you mean “correct.”
#47 Ali.
I wouldn’t say that Arabs are psychologically damaged. Arab society has many dysfunctions, so do all other societies. We frequently stress the negative aspects in discussions such as this but there are positive aspects as well, everyone in Arab society is not miserable & unhappy, most people are quite comfortable with their life-style. Behavior which is at varience with ”Western” modes of behavior is often quite rational in the context of Arab society.
Having said that, there is no doubt in my mind that the intrusion of ”Western” or modern ideas & behaviors is causing extreme stress to Arab society generally & a severe reaction to certain individuals.
Since the circumstances of my life required me to live in both societies, Arab & Western, I had to accept both to a certain degree in order to function successfully.
Luckily for me, people can easily live with very contradictory ideas on occasion.
I know you don’t like to hear this, but I’ll say it anyway – the main cause, the underlying problem, of much dysfunction, is the direct result of Islam.
#33 Michael Totten.
I don’t agree with your contention that the Left has been obliterated in Israel.
It has been electorally obliterated, the two main Left parties, Meretz & Labour, are indeed terminally ill. But, I have to agree with Trumpeldor & Ken Besig that the Left maintains great influence. Both Kadima & Likud have co-opted the Left by adopting much of their program. In the meantime, much of the Left has become even more extreme. And, it cannot be denied that the economic influence of our ”oligarchs” greatly influences policy.
Terry,
I did, of course, mean the Israeli left has been electorally obliterated rather than obliterated entirely. All democratic societies are going to have a “left” and a “right” for the same reason there is an up and a down. The only political cultures that have no divisions are totalitarian, and even then that isn’t entirely true.
#71 Michael Totten.
Actually, I think totalitarian societies have more divisions than liberal societies.
There are always factions, rivalries, constituancies. People assume wrongly that dictatorships or authoritarian regimes are monolithic (although, all may have similar goals).
What people like myself, Mr Besig, Trumpeldor, Larry, & others are saying is that the Left in Israel has influence far exceeding their support among the Israeli public. Israel’s political system is not particularly democratic in reality, our political system is unaccountable, & no matter who we vote for, we get basically the same government.
Here’s a link to an interview with Caroline Glick at Big Peace.
Caroloine Glick: Final Status Talks on a Palestinian State
http://bigpeace.com/sfr/2010/08/25/caroline-glick-final-status-talks-on-a-palestinian-state/
Towards the end of the approx. 10 min. interview, the issue of the Palestinians unilaterally declaring an independant state is brought up.
And from Debka this morning:
”Obama Weighs Offer of US Nuclear Umbrella if Israel Scraps Iran Strike.”
http://www.debka.com/article/8990/
Say anything you want about the reliability of Debka, but this bears thinking about.
Personally, I think the US under Obama is an unreliable ally, perhaps no ally at all but rather an adversary.
I rather felt that #62 Menachem Ben Yakov’s point was apposite.
You two seem to have taken a long time to begin to come near to a conclusion that should have been patently obvious years ago.
There is, indeed, a perfect storm brewing, and it has been brewing long, long before the 1990s. And the way forward has never been to pretend that it does not exist, nor to give oneself away to people who simply want you dead. Unless being dead is seen as being a viable “lifestyle option”.
Further, negotiating from a position of strength is a strategic essential, always has been and always will be.
The leaders of the West, and Israel, know this, but their position re Israel is always in terms of weakening Israel’s position in order (so they would seem to say) in order to establish it as “Mr Nice Guy”.
And now that the country has precious little more to throw to the crocodiles it is almost a bit late to wake up.
#17 Ken Bolland,
The Israelis helped the Lebanese Christians in Southern Lebanon during the civil war that the PLO fomented by letting the Christian communities export goods through the fence, pass through to find work in Israel and to provide medical treatment in Israeli hospitals and clinics for those injured in the PLO killing spree. The town of Damour comes to mind.
You should read Brigitte Gabriel’s writing about her experience with the “good fence”.
” Be sure to let us know, Menachem, if you have anything constructive to add in the future. ”
Since you have a penchant for interviewing reporters I see no reason why their previous columns should be off limits as they provide incite into their political perspective.
My only addition would be that I don’t find photos newsworthy if they are four years old. I enjoyed the interview despite your caustic remarks.
Terry, you really think it would be feasible to leave out the Saudis? This Debka speculation hardly addresses the issue of nukes in the region. And you really think that Obama would agree to the provisions they offer including a Raptor force and Israeli/US nuke subs?
Speaking of Raptors: http://ericpalmer.wordpress.com/2010/08/25/lot-8-production-raptor-extreme-performance/
Obama refuses to make more Raptors for US military despite the obvious inadequacies of the F-35 and Debka suggests he GIVES Israel some of the few we have? Counter-force doesn’t mean much if your country is glass and the Mullahs don’t think much of the Iranian people as far as retaliation. They are more likely to hit Israel through indirect means than launch a warhead they won’t have for some time. Obama has stated many times the plan is not containment.
The only thing that would make an umbrella a reasonable offer would be a MDS that could take out Iranian missiles BEFORE they land. We don’t have that yet, nor is Israel likely to deploy such a system anytime soon.
Debka is pushing fantasy again.
Well Render, I should say “all intelligence operations” making preparations for the likely up tick in terror should we strike, particularly terror in the region.
Now watch the IDS over the slashing of the Muslim NY taxi driver. Imagine the attacker was Jewish…….
Terry and Larry, as you an I both know the Israeli Left is alive and kicking, but while it still has power especially in the meida, the Left no longer has the influence it once did.I will say it again, anyone who reads Maariv or Yediot Achronot, or watches Israel TV news or political discussion programming on Channels 1, 2, or 10, or even listens to a single Israeli radio political talk show realizes that the Left in Israel still controls the public flow of information. In practical terms, the Israeli public and private media are either Left, radical Left, or Bolshevik Left.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0810/41469.html
What Netanyahu is hoping for….
But even if handicapped here in the Mid Term, the Left is certainly alive and well: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2012558,00.html
and whatever you call this crap is alive too: http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2010/08/mossad-in-america-giraldi.html
For Render: http://www.dtig.org/docs/Klub-Family.pdf
Matter
Of
Trust
M
#78 Ken Besig – Israel.
Well, I stopped watching the news on TV a few years ago. I don’t read Hebrew well enough to read a newspaper but the English language Israeli print media is appalling enough. There are days when I can’t even read the news or op-eds, I’m just totally disgusted. But, our media morons are not the worst – where the Left has influence is behind the scenes, out of sight, in our institutions, in every government bureaucracy, even within the IDF. And look at our universities, infested with traitors & pseudo-intellectual wackos. And, as you mentioned in another post somewhere, our 20 or so ”oligarchs” who control our economy & exert enormous political influence while they rob us blind with their semi-monopolies.
#76 Maxtrue.
You don’t even have to mention the Saudis – US foreign policy in the region is based on Saudi interests. While all the idiots rant & rave about the Israel lobby, it’s the Saudi lobby they should worry about.
The Debka article did mention that the US umbrella was worthless.
And why do you assume Iran won’t have a nuclear warhead for a few years? You don’t know, I don’t know, & I doubt if the Americans know much more than we do.
Guys, I agree that Michael has missed some important and sad facts about things behind the scenes, or out in the open. During a long visit to Israel last year, I watched the news and commentary most nights. I miss a few words in Hebrew here and there, but I take in about 95% of what is being said. There is no doubt that if you think of names like Dan Margalit, Raviv Drucker, Motti Kirschenbaum, Yaron London, Gideon Levy (excuse me while I grimace), and the news anchors, it’s hardly representative of either ‘truth’ or public opinion. What is impressive is that the public maintains common sense in the face of waves of de-facto propaganda for ‘two states for two people’, ‘religious Jews are bad’, ‘we conquered Palestine and now we must apologize until our grandchildren are our age’, etc. In fact, a figure like Gideon Levy is useful because he makes Yaron, Dan and the rest seem moderate. I recall watching Raviv Drucker and another guy from Channel 10, a Maariv columnist whose name I always forget, describe – with apparent accuracy and permission from Livni – how Tsipi and Ehud attempted, over and over, to seduce Abbas into accepting virtually all of the ‘West Bank’ in negotiations that continued until very late.
Outlets like Debka and folks like Caroline Glick routinely and fairly point out how American mediating favors the Palestinians. What they fail to point out as clearly is how much Israeli leaders invite this, while putting on a show for Israelis that they hate the pressure.
On a related note, it was always the Amos Oz’es and Burgs etc. who ran around the world inciting against Likud govt’s. Now it is ex-Likudniks like Livni and Olmert who seem to incite against themselves. Exaggerating, but not that much…
As far as the monopolies, etc., the banks in particular: “I have no further comment.”
I guess my only comment is that hope awaits in the next generation, perhaps.
I have not yet read the Debka articles, but I can confirm that any ‘umbrella’ guarantees from an Obama-led or any other Admin are not to be relied on. In some ways, the example of Obama obscures just how few US Presidents, if any, have truly stood by Israel in times of crisis.
Oligarchs, out-of-touch media, political extremes with more power than their actual popular support would indicate, rampant corruption, policy driven by opinion instead of observation…
Ho hum. Welcome to the world, guys. Some places the left, some places the right, some places (like the US) both. Name an exception, please, because I can’t come up with one.
If these characteristics spell doom for Israel, then they do for all. Somehow we muddle through (although I agree, it feels more and more like cooling tar).
Larry, As far as ” monopolies ” are concerned, the solution is two-fold. First to eliminate the so called ” controlling shares ” that give those shareholders who hold them influence that exceeds their own monetary investment in the company. Secondly, the development of organizations that lobby for the rights of the common shareholder. Both are problems that can be tackled and will ultimately occur whether Israel’s oligarchs like it or not.MBY
Pam, you are right, absolutely. My position is not Ken’s on this; that is, I am also aware of how corrupt things are here. Menachem, agreed, but I am not sure such organizations even exist.
Ken and Terry, I just read the Debka piece. Another insult from the US Admin to Israel – ‘don’t worry, once you commit suicide by signaling to us and Iran that you will accept a first strike from people who believe they will bring the messiah by destroying you, we will let you do whatever you want.’ As Debka pointed out, an unbridgeable contradiction between the motivation behind the threat from Iran in the first place, and the ‘rational’ model proposed by the CIA guy. BTW – what is the difference between a CIA guy and any of the last several US Presidents? Never mind…
Larry, Actually discussion of this issue, shareholder rights, is quite timely-
http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=1574436954&play=1
Keep in mind that Israeli and other foreign based firms that are listed on US markets must comply with all US regulations.
If I read this right, it seems that knocking off Iran’s militant regime would be the best way to quiet things down. ELiminating the nuclear threat where would also be a must. The Turks would likely retreat from their bellicose stance one it was made clear that the USA had no intention of backing off. At some time a political survival instinct sets in.
Pam & Larry.
Other countries, especially America, have similar problems, no doubt. But, they don’t face existential threats, at least not in the short term. America will exist after Obama, our existence is a perpetual question mark, especially in today’s political climate. We are a miniscule country, vulnerable to economic pressure by our ”friends” & outright military annihilation by our neighbors. We can’t afford leftist traitors from within nor the dysfunctional political system we have.
Let me tell you, I’m the home office when it comes to understanding corrupt economic systems, I lived my whole life in one. In all honesty, my political & economic ideas when I lived in Morocco would shock you perhaps. But I was never a hypocrite about it like my Arab friends. So I recognized immediately the similar pattern here in Israel, although obviously, Israel is not as extreme as where I come from.
Terry, I’m not downplaying Israeli corruption for one moment. Not at all. And there is less overall in the US. I see the ‘leftist traitors’ as a greater threat than the economic system per se, though there is a definite relationship. The bigwigs did indeed ensure that Oslo would come about, and very powerful people in Israel keep trying to revive it. I still see the Israeli people overall as understanding these realities, even if they are unable to change them. But I suppose that makes your point
#88 Larry in the Silicon.
Israel isn’t particularly corrupt. That’s not what I’m talking about. I don’t bribe every Moshe, Shlomo, & Avi (Tom, Dick, & Harry) – while in Morocco, I had to bribe people almost every day, for everything. When I was young, we even had to bribe the guy at the newspaper kiosque to buy postage stamps (short supply). You have NO idea what corruption is.
No, I’m talking about the way an economic system is set up, tax rules, semi-monopolies that allow inefficiency coupled with high prices, a certain amount of crony capitalism to be sure, lack of competition, rules that make entry to a market prohibitive for foreign companies, high import duties. And, this is caused to a large extent by economic concentration in the hands of a few families.
I went to the supermarket today – I spent 1000 shekels on food. How can that be in a country when the median wage is around 7000 shekels a month? We are being robbed, prices are easily 30% more than they should be. Even allowing for the extra cost of shipping to Eilat, products are over-priced. Meat is a great example. Entrecote steak (not frozen) is 132 shekels/kg. How can that be?
Lebanon is a great place to live in. You have to live here a long time to understand the mentality of the people.
Christians, Muslims, Druze and Jews lived happily in the area until foreign powers intefered: France, England, Syria, United States and Israel.
Americans are too far from understanding how arabs think or what really goes on in the Middle East not to mention their own country. They are controlled by what the media feeds them and we know who controls their media.
Hezbulla has the power to take all of Lebanon in 7 minutes but it’s not a terrorist organization as the western world thinks it is. They are a resistance. They killed American marines back in 1982 but why don’t you ask yourselves what the marines or their allies were doing back then in the country? We don’t like the fact Palestinians are in Lebanon but don’t you think there were massacres done to erase them?
Lebanese love the American people and have nothing against them. They have problems with certain American foreign policies and they do prefer one president over the other. Always ask for motives in the region: oil, power, support Israel blindly, …
3 religions came out from Lebanon and Lebanon is right in the center of Asia, Africa and Europe.
It all boils down to greed and power that is destroying the world. If every person prays and meditates in his own faith, the world would be a much better place.
I would appreciate if you spent more time understanding the mentality of the people here more, show the good and bad pictures so you don’t put bad ideas in the readers s’ minds.
Larry in the Silicon.
Here’s an article, I posted the link a while ago, but read this & you’ll understand what I’m talking about, not that I needed Mr Doron’s analysis to figure it out.
Daniel Doron, ”Unable to Decide?”
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=185204
Hi Terry. I have some idea; I’ve been to Mexico.
I agree, Israel is not like that. I meant ‘corruption’ in the same sort of sense that you expressed it just now.
Yes, there is gouging. I was always amazed at what I had to pay for skin lotion and antacids, both of which I use. But the food – yup. It’s pretty high in the supermarkets; and vegetables, which used to be cheap in Israel in the 80s and 90s seem much higher now. Israel has become a society in which economic disparities have increased the alienation of a large percentage of poorer people, and this is a shame.
“Jonathan Spyer: Absolutely. They aren’t naïve people by any means. On the contrary. But they find it very hard to except the irrational and ideological elements in Middle East politics. They themselves are not irrational or ideological. They’re extremely rational, and they assume everyone else is, as well. And so they make massive errors.”
Should that be:
But they find it very hard to accept the irrational
#91 Larry in the Silicon.
Right, Israel isn’t a Third-World country, you can’t take the comparisons too far, it’s apples & oranges. The standard of living here is very high (compared to Morocco), people are healthy, have access to health care, housing is generally decent for low-income people, etc. etc. no one is starving or living on bread, tea, a few olives.
But, this economic system is as much a danger as our external enemies. Imagine Israel’s economy with the necessary reforms, we are no where near our potential.
But, it’s a catch-22 situation. We can’t change the economy without changeing the political system but because of the economic system (powerful interest groups), we can’t change the political system.
Terry, yes on all counts. And it is very frustrating. But for me I don’t experience America as home, so I will come and join the fight, and contribute what I can for as long as I can.
Okay, I had a few links in a post that’s waiting I guess.
Terry, it is reasonable to assume that the miniaturization and guidance required to field nuclear warheads is some years away from Iran’s reach. They wouldn’t want to push the button on a dud. Right now we are seeing an escalation of conventional threats: http://www.dtig.org/docs/Klub-Family.pdf
Perhaps Debka should focus on the Israeli Defense Industry. Debka made the wild claims about Raptors and Nuclear armed subs from the US. These suggestions don’t gel with reality, nor do they explain Israeli inadequacies.
The Saudis were omitted from Debka’s calculus. In terms of an umbrella, this makes no sense. Obama would not offer an umbrella to just Israelis, nor would he stockpile nukes in Israel under whose control? The same C and C now governing Turkey’s nukes?
Debka doesn’t flush out these obvious holes. They present an unsupported offer and then suggest it is just a ruse. Whose ruse?
Again, why would Americans offer Israelis some of our limited numbers of Raptors? Lot 8 is best we’ve got. If Debka wanted to sound more credible they should have rumpored the offer of 25 B-1s which we are considering scraping in the era of cuts. Israel could use them for a nuclear leg. As I explained however months ago, the US should have already made Israel the site of US missile defense shield and the Sinai, home to ME command. This would be a far more important carrot. As far as Israel in NATO, is that really good for Israel? Debka would be howling were that to come true. Would Israelis serve in Afghanistan?
I suggest this period is the build up to the round of peace talks as Allies and Axis rush hardware into the field. With the red line so hot, I rather doubt the predictable escalation by the Axis will be ignored, if not serve as a trigger. Obasma, despite inclination, is being forced to accept certain options.
These options become clearer after the Mid Term. Even Jon Stewart laughed at the idea these “talks” will take a month or two. In the meantime, there is lenty to do to prepare. Perhaps the DOD can find a mata-material solution to LCS decks not being able to withstand F-35 landings. Having these decks as forward platforms presents another variable to the Mullahs as would the new hyper velocity missiles the military seeks to deploy.
Assets
Decide
Outcomes
to borrow from Render’s riddleology….
My opinion – the greatest threat from the left in Israel is in academia.
Well, another threat would be low productivity of workers and the oligarchy Terry speaks of. Academia propels high tech without which Israel has no sling shots and trumpets. A mixed bag, yes?
Media and academia are similar squats here, but as I said, the Left in the US is complex and until recently, not as influential.
Menachem: My only addition would be that I don’t find photos newsworthy if they are four years old.
You must be an absolute joy at all the dinner parties.
#74-Terry in Eilat…
This American agrees with you on Obama himself as a questionable ally, or maybe even an adversary. That guy is a chameleon…literally. But I think that you can rely on the large majority of us Americans being on Israel’s side as an ally.
Elected governments come and go. But deep seated senses of right and wrong are pretty steadfast.
It is a religious war that has been waged since Islam was born. Until Islam is destroyed or discredited there is no hope for the Middle East.
Captain (#94) – “Lebanon is a great place to live in.”
R – Unless, of course, one happens to be Jewish. If the street gangs in my town were blazing away at each other with fully automatic weapons and RPG’s and the army had to be called in to quell them, I’d see no valid reason to stay. I certainly would not force my family to remain there.
Captain – “You have to live here a long time to understand the mentality of the people.”
R – Unless, of course you are Jewish, in which case you’re not exactly welcome to live there, are you? How many Jews are left living in Lebanon? Under 1,000, if that?
Captain – “Christians, Muslims, Druze and Jews lived happily in the area until foreign powers intefered: France, England, Syria, United States and Israel.”
R – How do you think Christians, Muslims, Druze, and Jews arrived there in the first place? They were all the descendents of foreign invading powers. I’m forced to assume that the “happy time” you speak of was prior to 1917, when the Ottoman Empire, themselves a foreign power, owned the region. Do you really think the Christians, Druze, Arabs, and Jews were all that happy as second-class citizens of the Ottoman Empire? Even the Arabs were not all that happy being slaves of the Turks. After the fall of the Ottoman Empire and the end of WW1, Lebanon was a French Mandate until the last French troops left in 1946 (how happy do you think Lebanon’s Jews were living under Nazi-allied Vichy French control 1940-43?). Two years later (1948) Lebanon joined the attack on the newborn Israel and lost. The result was over 100,000 Palestinian refugees (do they count as foreign interference?) into Lebanon. In 1958 the Lebanese government requested US help in maintaining order during a coup. The USMC arrived, oversaw a semi-peaceful transition of government, and left the same year. Was that interference? Lebanon saw a short period of relative peace through the 1960′s, until the PLO arrived from Jordan in 1970. How come you didn’t mention the PLO as a “foreign interference” in Lebanon? The PLO used Lebanon as a staging point in its war to destroy Israel which leads us directly to the events of the 1980′s. Is that the happy time you speak of?
Captain – “Americans are too far from understanding how Arabs think or what really goes on in the Middle East not to mention their own country.”
R – Perhaps it is Arabs who are too far from understanding how Americans think?
Captain – “They are controlled by what the media feeds them and we know who controls their media.”
R – Captain, you really need to explain who and what you mean by that statement. And you better have a good explanation.
Captain – “Hezbulla has the power to take all of Lebanon in 7 minutes but it’s not a terrorist organization as the western world thinks it is. They are a resistance. They killed American marines back in 1982 but why don’t you ask yourselves what the marines or their allies were doing back then in the country?”
R – HizbAllah is the very definition of a terror organization. They gain and maintain their power through terror. Who and what exactly are they resisting? They mass murdered the American Marines and French soldiers in 1983 (not 1982). HizbAllah has been killing Jews and Lebanese civilians since the day HizbAllah was created to take power by terror and kill Jews. The USMC, French, and Italians were in Lebanon to protect their own national interests (embassies and civilians), and provide a buffer for the PLO to be withdrawn from Lebanon (do you know who Phillip Habib was?). How about you ask yourself why the PLO was in Lebanon? But since they’re gone now, perhaps you would be better off asking why the Iranians are in Lebanon right now? Are they not a foreign power interfering in Lebanon? Are they not the sole reason that HizbAllah has the apparent ability to defeat the LAF?
Captain – “We don’t like the fact Palestinians are in Lebanon but don’t you think there were massacres done to erase them?”
R – “Massacres to erase” he says. Proving that he really does not understand Americans, or Jews for that matter, at all. Wouldn’t disarming them and assimilating them into the Lebanese population have been a preferable, more civilized alternative to dehumanizing them and treating them like non-citizens, kept penned up in decades old refugee camps?
Captain – “Lebanese love the American people and have nothing against them.”
R – Which Lebanese would that be?
Captain – “They have problems with certain American foreign policies and they do prefer one president over the other.”
R – Who doesn’t? I have problems with certain American foreign policies and I very definitely prefer one president over another.
Captain – “Always ask for motives in the region: oil, power, support Israel blindly, …”
R – What oil? Neither Lebanon nor Israel have much of an oil industry, do they? What power? Because I promise you very few Americans care about who is in power in Lebanon, as long as they are not dedicated to the destruction of Israel. And now we get to the crux of the matter, don’t we? We, the vast majority of Americans, insist that Israel has a right and a responsibility to exist and to defend itself from those who publicly swear to destroy it. Do you have a problem with that? Because from this one comment of yours, it certainly appears that you do.
Captain – “3 religions came out from Lebanon and Lebanon is right in the center of Asia, Africa and Europe.”
R – What three religions would those be? Because Judaism and Christianity came from the area now known as Israel (Jerusalem ring any bells?) and Islam came howling out of the deserts of Arabia.
Captain – “It all boils down to greed and power that is destroying the world.”
R – While I don’t necessarily disagree with that statement, I do feel the need to point out that Israel does not seek power and is demonstrably not greedy about what it wants. All Israel asks is to be left in peace. Is that too goddamn much to ask?
Captain – “If every person prays and meditates in his own faith, the world would be a much better place.”
R – Except that at least 120 million adherents of one faith are dedicated to and pray for the extermination of the 12 million survivors of another faith. If that alone were to change the world would be a much better place, wouldn’t it?
Captain – “I would appreciate if you spent more time understanding the mentality of the people here more, show the good and bad pictures so you don’t put bad ideas in the readers s’ minds.”
R – I’m going to assume that this last is directed to MJT, who I shouldn’t have to point out has spent a great deal of his life doing exactly that, living there and attempting to understand and explain the mentality of the people there, and has shown and taught us all through his many articles, both the good and the bad of the region on a regular basis. Perhaps you could attempt to explain the freakish, irrational, and utterly insane need to exterminate Jews in such a way that 21st century humanity can understand?
ALL
THAT
MATTERS,
R
All that matters indeed. After reading that I just felt the need to post this: http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/art-and-politics/2010/aug/25/stealth-jihad-behind-ground-zero-mosque/
Yes, the good Captain Ahab might want to define media and what exactly conditions the Islamic mind. There is a combustible here in American pumped up by the distortion of media.
Here is some fine idiocy called decoding the Middle East peace rhetoric.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0810/41499.html
I can only imagine the target audience….
How can the Arabs not love the U.S.? We give Hamas, and Hezbollah millions, plus weapons to use on Israel.
Didn’t G-d say Ishmael would be a stubborn ass of a man, his hand against his brother, and Jerusalem would cut all those who try to handle it?
Therefore, secure the perimeter, prepare to win a war on two fronts, and enjoy peace that way. It appears, once again, the G-d of Moses knew what he was telling men to write down.
Render and MaxTrue, thanks.
I didn’t follow the genesis of the Menachem-Michael Totten pugilistics, but it is certainly entertaining.
Ultimately, I don’t share Michael’s ‘potential optimism’ regarding Lebanon or other parts of the Arab world. When and if Egypt goes Islamic, we can expect to see insanity go, like, really insane. For now, Israel is too passive, and needs to kick its enemies in the teeth. Very clear.
Leatherneck: How can the Arabs not love the U.S.? We give Hamas, and Hezbollah millions, plus weapons to use on Israel.
We most certainly don’t. And you will get in very serious trouble if you give them money or weapons yourself.
To those saying that the Arabs’ main problem is Islam, I disagree. Yeah, the Muslim world is pretty much in the crapper now. But 1000 years ago it wasn’t. I know it wasn’t a paradise and I know there were some murderous sultans, emirs, caliphs, etc. that apologists for Islam conveniently forget about, but overall, if I were a Jew living 1000 years ago, I’d rather live in Syria than in France.
Islam took the Arab people, who were pretty much a barbarous collection of tribes, and less than a century later, they had a huge empire. Yes, a lot of abuses were committed in Muslim empires, but so were there a lot of great things. There was also a lot of violence in the Roman and Greek worlds but we remember them fondly for the good they’ve done and the lasting impact they’ve had. Arabs made a lot of advancements in medicine, architecture, math, science, etc., and I think we can respect their history for that.
What happened? Well, societies rise, then fall, then rise, then fall, then rise, etc. Europe (Rome) was top dog 2 millennia ago, then 1 millennium ago Europe was a wasteland. Then it rose again.
I do think there is something in Islam that has caused the Muslim world’s demise. I went to an exhibit on the Silk Road at a museum here in New York with a Persian friend and we were reading old Persian poetry about the pleasure of wine. “But why are they talking about wine? they shouldn’t be drinking wine!” He responded, “well, this was an open-minded version of Islam, not the fascist interpretation we see of it today.”
I like how Irshad Manji puts it, that radical Islam *IS* Islam (and she smacks down those who say it’s just a “misinterpretation”). But as it IS Islam, it’s not the only Islam. The Islamism of today is a bizarre mix of puritanism and Marxist political thought. Instead of painting the religion with a wide brush (I was raised Catholic but many things I find in Islam I find to be much more beautiful than my native faith – though I don’t practice either and don’t expect to any time soon!), we should hold out hope that the reformers will take control one day. It could happen! I can’t look at their entire history, which has seen some amazing moments, and write the whole faith off.
Inside Islam’s DNA there might be the gene for greatness in culture and science and also a cancer gene that eventually eats its own. But it also might have a regeneration gene that could snap the people someday out of this nonsense and bring them to peaceful greatness. Just like in Christianity there is the DNA for the Inquisition, anti-Semitism, and burning witches, but there is also the DNA of the Protestant work ethic, of social justice, and the Renaissance.
Larry, Russia and China have some serious considerations themselves regarding radical Islam. Despite the brainless media, the Political Center is getting quite bothered by the direction we are going in. I think the world has forgotten how deadly and costly major events can be. It can only hide from the abuse of women ans children, the spread of hatred and violence for only so long. It is sad, but mankind must be reminded that altruistic cooperation requires enforcement.
Our best hope is to jump up to the next level of technological superiority. If we don’t pull out of this economic and social morass, we will fall. That is exactly what gives rise to a new spirit. We are over due and unfortunately, Obama is blowing the opportunity.
Again, as my tribute to Render…
Sling Shots
And
Trumpets
Kyle, much of behavior is learned. Genes might predispose one group towards a particular cultural software, but there is behavior fashioned long before the recent centuries of programming. The very altruism we espouse came from eons of sacrifice in the battle for survival.
Instability and uncertainty tends to push culture towards core values; their center. http://people-press.org/report/636/
There is a great plasticity to behavior and the path is what we make it, but then, I might just be sticking my neck out.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/07/100727112833.htm
Michael,
I don’t think Leatherneck was saying that Hamas and Hezb’allah get money directly from the US Government because they don’t.
But two things. There are private individuals who do get money and other things to these groups (from the West).
And the US does give money to Gaza, Lebanon and supplies (until recently) the Lebanese military.
I don’t think its any stretch to believe that a significant amount of those “gifts” get to terrorist organisations, and that probably includes the Taliban.
I don’t know what percentage it would represent although the larger percentage likely comes from Iran by various routes.
Totten: ” You must be an absolute joy at all the dinner parties. ”
Brilliant remark. Try posting when you are sober.
Menachem,
You promised weeks ago that you would leave. Make good on it and go before I mark you as spam.
“Try posting when you are sober.”
Menachem, we tend to drink at dinner parties. I think you missed exactly Michael’s point.
Maxtrue,
He didn’t miss my point. He’s a troll. And he knows he’s a troll because he has acted like one since the first time he showed up here.
I’ve gone ahead and marked his comments as spam.
Michael, I was being facetious……
Can’t say he didn’t have a chance to exchange ideas…..
Gaza aid from American tax payers recently was 900 million. Hamas did not get any of that money? 10% perhaps, and the Arab world hates us? The Holy land foundation, and other charities make sure Islamic terrorists get money for weapons, and C-4.
Ishmael, Esau, and Islam have combined to created the problem we call the Middle East, spreading terror across the globe out of hate for Israel.
What does Archeology read about Allah, and Mohammad, and what did the G-d of Moses say about those who curse Israel?
Hamas indeed skims off lots of money. Don’t forget also how much EU green has gone into Gaza in the name of fighting ‘starvation’ and the ‘new Warsaw ghetto’ and other slanders. What’s worse, Michael, is that the precedent was set with the money given Arafat, and that continued to pour into Ramallah even after the al Aqsa Intifada began.
Would I rather have Gazans suffer than have Hamas build up its strength? Yes.
“Hezbulla has the power to take all of Lebanon in 7 minutes but it’s not a terrorist organization”
IOW “Captain” is jim-dandy with Hezzies slaughtering innocent Jews in *Argentina*. Drop dead, Cap’n.
One point from this informative interview I suggest be given further attention: “unseen power. Any force that can put that kind of fear into people is something we need to look at.”
“They’re extremely rational, and they assume everyone else is”
This is not a rational response to irrationality.
The irrational responder being “they”.
Kyle – A Jew 1,000 years ago? I would rather have lived under the Song Dynasty in China then in either Syria or France.
Most of what we know as modern Syria in 1010 AD was under the control of the Fatimid Caliphate, ruled by one Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah. While Jews under his rule had some freedoms, they were primarily used as money-changers with the Europeans. In 1011 AD the Abbasid Caliph Al-Qadir published the Baghdad Manifesto, which among other things accused the Fatimids of being Jews and much too friendly with non-Muslims.
That such an accusation carried any validity or meaning at all speaks volumes for how Jews were considered at the time.
The Baghdad Manifesto is considered by many historians to be the death knell for philosophy in Islamic thought.
Perhaps a different year or time frame would have been a better choice?
===
Alas poor old Menachem, we barely knew him from his wide interwebs presence. Google him up, he’s not a troll, he’s an e-thug. There is a lesson here, it’s never a good thing to insult ones host in that hosts own home. Gary Rosen, if you’re out there reading this, take note. This is much the point I’m trying to get across to you. Good rhetoric combined with solid fact generally is sufficient to lay waste to our mutual enemies pitifully under-educated attempts at a web presence. Bad rhetoric generally overshadows most facts. Always remember your audience is far more important then your target, for they are the ones who will decide who hits and who misses.
===
Leatherneck – The actual percentage is probably much greater then that. I seem to recall that EU and UN aid to Gaza almost equals US aid and that Muslim aid far outstrips both (don’t quote me on that though), and that all of it is funneled through Israel or Egypt who both add their own aid. Quite the scam, eh? Ishmael and Esau are both long long gone and Islam has not been truely unified in any meaningful way since the fall of the Ottomans, or since the death of Muhammed himself if you prefer. The Arab world is not the Islamic world (unless you have something against the Christian Arabs and the Bedouin tribes). The Holy Land Foundation was shut down in 2007 (finally, and most likely not hard enough but nonetheless).
Never mind what archaeology (digging up 2,000 year old outhouses and cess pits – yuck) and the God of Moses have to say. More importantly for the moment, what does Gerd Puin have to say about the Koran itself?
http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/99jan/koran.htm
We’re still waiting. We’ve been waiting since 1979. Every day that we wait, the worse the problem becomes.
===
The leadership of the residents of Gaza, like the leadership of the southern residents of Lebanon, are sitting on prime tourist trap land. If they would stop trying to kill Jews and shooting at each other over who gets to kill more Jews, they could be raking in the dollars and EU’s and living like small kings in fantastic cities of light and sound. Instead they choose to sit in darkness turning plumbing into rockets and flinging their opponents off of tall buildings. Even the American Mafia knew better then to have a war in Las Vegas or Atlantic City, it’s bad for business.
Successive Western and Israeli leaders have repeatedly tried the Danegeld idea, and still do. And its very obviously still not working any better then the land for peace deals have. No sooner then they get the land, then they move the giant model rocket clubs in even closer. With the world-wide economy going into the tank for at least the next 877 days, sooner or later all of that western aid is going to dry up…Hope! Change!
And God help us all if Bill Clinton gets caught messing with Huma Abedin Weiner right before the upcoming Bibi – Abu Mazen – Hillary summit…
WILL WORK
FOR FOOD,
R
Terry, I’m not sure what you mean, when you say that Islam is the problem. Could you please clarify? Are you talking about Islam’s grip on society and politics? In that case, I agree with you.
Also, I made some Harira, it was very good. (But lets not get too off-topic)
Paul, it is incredibly difficult for rational people to understand irrational thinking.
#111 Kyle.
I suppose you are commenting on my comment re: Islam.
I think you have little understanding of Arab history & the Arab conquest. Everything you said is in the realm of mythology, the crap put out by apologists for Islam. This rosy picture is very far from reality.
Islam is the ideology of Arab imperialism. One of the primary goals of Islam is the Arabization of non-Arab subject people, the elimination of identity & indigenous cultures. One reason (among many) that Islam can be characterized as totalitarian in nature is this quest for the homogenization of populations that fall under it’s domination. This is a work in progress, it does not happen overnight, it continues today, just as it did 1400 years ago.
There was never a Golden Age of Islam – this is a myth.
Almost all of the people who are today called ”Arabs” are not Arabs, they are the descendants of conquered peoples forced to become Muslim, learn Arabic, & adopt Arab customs. The supposed ”achievements” of Arab civilization are primarily based on the achievements of prior cultures. The Arabs brought NOTHING with them except swords & the Qur’an & a relatively primitive tribal culture.
As Islamization & Arabization progressed over the centuries, the subjugated areas sank into a stifling intellectual stagnation. In other words, the Islamic system perfected itself.
#123 Ali.
Glad you tried the harira, I was too lazy to make it, I might give it a try next week. Today, I’m making another traditional Moroccan dish, ”L’Kraaîn b’kamoun” -
cows foot seasoned with cumin, garlic, paprika & cooked with chickpeas. I only cook for Friday night (Shabbat) because Moroccan cooking is too much work.
Well, of course the simple answer is the grip of Islam on society & politics. I don’t like any form of totalitarianism which is what I think Islam is. I look at my country, what is the result of Islam?
I see Islam as the ideology of Arab imperialism. One of the goals of Islam is to turn conquered subject peoples into pseudo-Arabs, the elimination of the identity & culture of indigenous peoples. One reason to call Islam a form of totalitarianism is this forced homogenization of subject peoples.
Most of the people who are today called Arabs are not Arabs, they are descendants of conquered people forced to convert to Islam, speak Arabic, & adopt Arab customs.
Islam brought intellectual stagnation to Morocco & everywhere else.
Without getting into a big philosophical discussion of Islamic theology, let me just give examples from daily life.
In Morocco, school courses in history start with the Arab conquest. There is no mention of Morocco as part of the Roman Empire, the influence of Carthage, the fact that Morocco was a Berber region.
A friend of mine is a professor of French literature. He is totally intimidated by a group of bearded ”Islamic” students – he self-censors himself & describes his course as ”French Literature for Dummies” because he can’t talk about anything that might offend the bearded jerks that glare at him during class.
Another friend of mine is an engineer in the Moroccan Air Force. Nice kid, not particularly religious. But he tells me he’s afraid there are ”jnoun” in his house.
I say, you’re kidding, right? Evil spirits, how can you believe that? Answer – it’s in the Qur’an, thus, it’s true, no questions asked.
Another example – go to a bookstore. The choice of books is a joke. You know why. If it ”offends” Islam, it’s forbidden. Plenty of anti-Semitic conspiracy books though.
And, it goes on & on. The legal status of women, the harassment of gays, the enforcement of Ramadan by the police, etc. etc. etc.
The country is being suffocated.
Dear Render,
thanks for your reply.
I will answer your questions.
1) There are still jews in the country. These jews do not belong to political side and they are living happily in Lebanon. In 1861, France and England put people against each other. Of course the Ottoman period had its influence. Look at Cordoba for example. It’s a good place where Christians, Moslems and Jews once lived and needed each other but not anymore.
2) An average American is busy in what to do in the weekend and he could not care less what is going on in his country or specially around the world. The average Arab is involved daily in politics before anything else. No insults to Americans. I am just pointing a fact. I lived in USA for 5 years and I also lived in Europe for a considerable time and I know what the priorities are in each country.
3) I am not defending Hezbulla or anything. Did they attack Americans outside Lebanese soil? Did they do 9/11? Hasan Nasrallah himself said he has nothing against the American people or the Jewish people. They have the power to wipe Israel out and they do not do so. They want the rightful return of the Palestinians to their lands. Why don’t you ask yourself what the Jewish or Zionist government did to the Palestinians and Lebanese? No Massacres? Please read the news in 1982, 1996 and 2006. Ask yourself who was throwing Katyuchas at Israel during all this time. Wasn’t it the Palestinians in the camps? Please read your news if you can trust it!!!
4) There are a lot of Americans living happily in Lebanon and I happen to know a whole lot of them. Some even prefer living here and raising their kids here rather than in USA. To put it simply, people are people whether they are arabs, jews or americans. They all want to live in peace and that’s why the killing of civilians or any man is bad for that matter.
5) Lebanon is a Christian country and gets supported by many countries in Europe specially France. It’s a strategic point for the US to control or have it on its side. Americans always wanted to build a base in our military airports. It is interested in oil in Iraq and minirals in Afghanistan and to keep arabs under the leash. I really feel bad for the American soldiers who died in Iraq for “finding the WMD and bringing justice and smoking terrorist out of their holes.”
6) Of course Jerusalem rings a bell. Do you have any idea what is going down there? Who makes fun of Jesus and Christianity in the movies? Please ask yourself that!
7) There are fanatic muslims and determined jews and power hungry americans. That does not mean all muslims and all jews and all americans are bad! People are people.
9) There were many Israelis (male and female) who came to Lebanon under a fake passport or foreign passport and they put their articles online. They all loved to live here and mix with the people and they all write about Beirut’s nightlife which to me personally Beirut’s nightlife does not mean anything.
10) President Obama is paying for the mistakes of the former presidents. I don’t think anyone would like to be in his shoes.
May God bless you all.
@Kyle,
“Yes, a lot of abuses were committed in Muslim empires, but so were there a lot of great things. There was also a lot of violence in the Roman and Greek worlds but we remember them fondly for the good they’ve done and the lasting impact they’ve had. Arabs made a lot of advancements in medicine, architecture, math, science, etc., and I think we can respect their history for that.”
May I friendly suggest you to read some books about jihad against India ???
If I give you the word “Mogul”,you might think about the magnificent Taj Mahal, or the enlightened Aureng Zeb,described by Voltaire.
But truth is,dozens of millions of Hindus were killed,far more than muslim killed by the crusaders.
Aureng Zeb,for instance, was a butcher, and fortunately for Hindous,Chatrapati Shivaji succeeded to set up the powerful Maratha empire to counter him !
Let me add that I personally hate the crusaders who wiped out all Jewish communities on their murderous path,especially in the Rhine valley in the 11th century !
Larry in the Silicon.
I just read an interesting essay on the motivations anti-Israel Jews which you might find interesting.
It’s posted at Adam’s Zionist Journey, ”The Guardian’s Jewish Defamers of Israel, and a Letter to my Teenage Nephew.”
http://adamzionistjourney.blogspot.com/2010/08/guardians-jewish-defamers-of-israel-and.html
This interview is highly biased and one sided. But it gives the Israeli perspective well and I can appreciate that.
Needless to say, an Iran conflict is not in America’s interest.
hmmm…
I seem to have been caught in moderation.
SCRATCHES,
R
When I see discussions about the condition of the middle east, and the timeless truisms about the Arab mentality, Islam, etc., I can’t help thinking about the black swan phenomena described by Nassim Taleb in his book of the same name. The book has nothing to do with politics or the middle east, but with the increasing occurence of huge and completely unprecedented phenomena which could not possibly have been predicted from earlier experience. The idea is that the forces of modernity- technological, economical, and ideological, are invisible but so vast that they can create huge, even historical changes seemingly overnight. This can be for good – as with the sudden fall of communism, or bad – the financial crisis of 2008. The mind-boggling success of Harry Potter is another example he gives (the book was rejected by ten publishers).
I believe that we will see a black swan in the middle east. Indeed, a black swan has been trying to get born since Oslo. So far, the forces of reaction have prevented it, but they are swimming against the tide of modernity, and they will not be able to hold out forever. This is not mere sentimentality. In his book, Richard Berman makes the argument that Al Quaida and the perpetrators of 9/11 understood this power better than the west itself, hence their desperate, but in my opinion doomed, call to arms.
The middle east may be more resistant to black swans, but it is not immune to them, and when it comes, it could dwarf the earlier ones. And because it is a black swan, someone like Terry, for all his obvious intelligence and experience living in a Muslim society, will be even less likely to predict it, relying on past experience. He will be the publisher who turned down Harry Potter.
You can see the signs, if you pull your nose out of your aging copy of Bernard Lewis and look at facts on the ground. The West Bank is quiet. Abbas seems committed to a state of non-belligerence with Israel. Now Western pressure has forced him to brave the no doubt substantial risks involved in direct negotations with Israel. The PA securities forces have been working so effectively that recently the Israeli army announced that it was considering allowing Israeli citizens to once again enter cities like Jenin, Nablus, and Ramallah. After the bloodbath of the second intifada, this is amazing. Sure, you can come up with any number of cynical explanations for it, but then you’re just avoiding the very real possibility that things might be changing. Nothing stays the same forever, and the point of the black swan is that today we don’t necessarily have to wait hundreds of years for change to come.
Briefly on the subject of Iran, well, the reason that I and every other Israeli isn’t packing his bags is that I think everyone understands intuitively that Iran is fundamentally weak. They will be squashed like a bug – maybe from a military strike, but not necessarily. My gut feeling is that Israeli high command sees this whole situation more as an opportunity than a threat – similar to 1967.
#125 MarkC.
That was pretty funny. Harry Potter.
I did like the Black Swan concept though. Indeed, things do change, usually because of some far-reaching technological advance, like electricity, the printing press, the internet, etc.
I don’t discount the idea that there can be far-reaching changes, some quite sudden (but usually not), in cultural perceptions or in political culture. They usually have some economic cause. And, I’d even agree that these changes sometimes sneak up on us, that there are indeed unintended consequences that can have quite an effect.
But, I think you are on very shaky ground being so optimistic about our region.
As a matter of fact, while I don’t want to rain on your parade here, my experience is that no matter how pessimistic you are about Arabs, they usually find a way to exceed your worst expectations. I don’t say this lightly, it’s based on a life-time of experience.
Shabbat shalom.
I think I saw a Black Swan….. it went by the name P 800
or was that the rumored name for Conviasa?
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/08/21/venezuela.flights.iran/?hpt=C2
“My gut feeling is that Israeli high command sees this whole situation more as an opportunity than a threat – similar to 1967.” you lost me on that one……
Mark, that’s interesting. I saw an interview with the Black Swan guy, but except for the idea of history being surprising and forces working behind the curtain, I don’t think that he found the secret to the universe, bluntly speaking.
Speaking of Iran, they are a problem, a huge problem – the specific regime in power and those elements of Iranian society that collaborate with them. Yet it is also true that the Iranian-Arab and Shi’a-Sunni conflict helps take the pressure off Israel in a certain way. What sane Israeli strategists (are there strategists who are listened to by the ever-jockeying politicians?) should be focusing on – or hoping for – is for an Iran that is strong, confident and Persian in orientation, and rational. An Iran that seeks a natural alliance with Israel, or at least coexistence, while continuing to look down its nose at the Arabs. I mean, they will do that, in any case.
I think your praise of Abbas is excessive. He is pinned between his fundamentalist enemies on one side and the sheer presence and power of Israel – which he knows is a viable, enduring society – on the other. Any help Israel can give him holding off Hamas is help he will accept. Israel’s problem, of course, is that if chaos erupts in its usual untimely fashion, the PA forces trained by Jordan and the US will turn on the IDF and the settlers.
Terry is right that Arabs always disappoint. They can’t but disappoint, given everything. I am amazed at how people turn genuine empathy for the plight of individual Arabs into a hopeful political scenario.
PS – Terry, I read your Gaza reconquest idea on another thread. It is sound, but not only int’l pressure would stop it. The average Israeli will rise up against a gov’t that tries to conclude Hamas in that manner. That’s my take – Israeli society has, sadly, chosen to coexist with that monstrosity to the south (or, in your case, northwest).
Dear Misguided MarkC,
The Judea Shomron district is indeed quiet, and has been for some time now. But this has nothing to do with Abbas, the Palestinian Authority, or the frankly useless Palestinian Police, it has to do with the fact that the Israeli Army with help from the Israeli security services are arresting tens of Palestinian terrorists, their leaders, and their helpers every single night, confiscating terrorist weapons and explosives, and disrupting terrorist gangs from organizing their activities.
Abbas, the Palestinian Authority, and the worthless Palestinian Police aren’t lifting a finger to prevent attacks on Israel and Israelis, only the vigilanct activities of the IDF is doing that.
KYLE,
“Yes, a lot of abuses were committed in Muslim empires, but so were there a lot of great things. There was also a lot of violence in the Roman and Greek worlds but we remember them fondly for the good they’ve done and the lasting impact they’ve had. Arabs made a lot of advancements in medicine, architecture, math, science, etc., and I think we can respect their history for that.”
I suggest to read ASSAP some story books about jihad against India
If you hear the word “Mogul”,you will think about the famed Taj mahal or the enlightened ruler Aureng Zeb but this Muslim Indian dynasty was also composed of the biggest butchers of history .There were millions of Indian victims of the jihad against India : people being killed,maimed,raped,forcefully converted or sold as slaves.I will also mention the scores of Hindu,Sikh,Buddhist temples looted and burn to the ground .As a familiar story,you must know that many mosques were built over these former temples ruins .
Two excellent articles in the JPost today.
Sarah Honig, ”Another Tack: Useful Idiots in Tel Aviv”
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Article.aspx?id=186056
Caroline Glick, ”Our World: Accepting the Unacceptable.”
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Article.aspx?id=186171
Trumpeldor,
I made very clear that the Muslim empires committed some massive human rights abuses. So did the Romans, the Greeks, etc. Hell, look at what the Romans did to the Jews. I’m merely stating, though, that if we can look at Rome and Greece and admire the good they’ve done DESPIRE their abuses, then we can do the same for Islamic civilization.
And I know many mosques were built over Hindu temples, Jewish synagogues, and Christian churches. But Christians have done the same. Many churches in Europe were built on pagan ruins. And when the Spanish conquered the Aztecs (after the Turks conquered Constantinople), they razed the Great Temple to the ground and used the stones to build the cathedral still standing in Mexico City today. (and the Amerindian populations of the Americas were also enslaved, raped, butchered, etc.).
Conservative estimate of non-Muslim deaths due to Islam is 250,000,000. There were about 80 million Hindus and more than 100 million black Africans in this total. Islam has not been around THAT long and yet it surpasses all other religions and non-religious slaughter, so I don’t know how you compare this with Rome and even Christian Europe.
The South American civilizations were quite barbaric, so one must be careful when comparing the Spanish to Mayans, lets say. Let’s not be fooled by Myth (though I am not condoning was the Spanish and even North American settlers did).
Your story talks of building religious sites over conquered ones. Well, Jews, Hindus and Christians are far from conquered, are they? You even point to one reason for opposition to the GZ mosque. What does history say?
In any case, you suggest we pass over the brutality and focus on the good. They is so much I can see that came down from the Greeks, Romans, Christians, Jews, Buddhists. There has been worthy achievement from Islam as well, but again you seek to equalize things when the historical record is not there. I find the hidden record of the Chinese, Africans and Hindus more likely to contain powerful contributions to humanity.
And the best periods of Islamic contribution came during more liberal periods. And it was Cyrus the Great who restored Jerusalem to the Jews. Be careful not to attribute a People’s history to the machinations of Islam.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/07/100712102816.htm
And as far as liberality in Islam, perhaps coffee is more important than the Koran…. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/08/100824103641.htm
Captain: However, he always portrays the pictures of some of Hezbullah’s areas and shows pictures of Iranian figures and that’s the image he is giving out to the world just like CNN. Why doesn’t he show the pictures of other areas?
I do show pictures of other areas. Scroll up and look again.
MarkC,
I think you’re right. I don’t expect to see this happen sooner rather than later, but obviously nobody knows, and if I’m wrong it won’t be the first time.
I’m still pessimistic until further notice. Remember the Beirut Spring and how that ended?
Terry – will check the links out later. Suffice it to say, we’re still carrying around a lot of ‘mixed multitudes’ with us.
Kyle, enjoy your optimism, but the fact that many civilizations committed mass murder on the way to civilization doesn’t change the fact that a bunch of uncivilized incoherent Arabs want to drive Israel into the sea, still.
P.S. Terry, I believe I’m one of thousands of guys around the world secretly in love with Sarah Honig. Caroline – not as much. And there’s my sexist, pre-Shabbat rant for the day…
Ken Besig: Abbas, the Palestinian Authority, and the worthless Palestinian Police aren’t lifting a finger to prevent attacks on Israel and Israelis, only the vigilanct activities of the IDF is doing that.
That’s actually not true according to IDF officers I spoke to recently.
I’ll write about this on the front page.
Maxtrue – Our best hope is to jump up to the next level of technological superiority. If we don’t pull out of this economic and social morass, we will fall. That is exactly what gives rise to a new spirit. We are over due and unfortunately, Obama is blowing the opportunity.
That’s true. We are at a point where there is no political solution to the morass we find ourselves in. The condition that America, and all the members of the competently nuclear-armed community (not including incompetently armed Pakistan) find themselves in is unprecedented, due more to an excess of power than a lack of it.
The various groups who have declared themselves to be our enemies are fighting with every bit of their strength, intelligence and technology to defeat us. If we responded with every bit of our strength, technology and power to defeat them, it would take us about 5 minutes to entirely eliminate them. If we chose not to use nukes, it might take a week. But in the process of doing that, we run the risk of eliminating ourselves, as well as all life on the planet. Our biggest fear is not of barbarians/terrorists, Islam, the commie/socialist/multiculti hordes or even the Chinese. We’re only really afraid of ourselves.
We’re still recovering from the horrors of WWII. Germany, the most advanced and highly cultured nation in Europe, savagely and meticulously murdered millions of Jews. Why? We still don’t really know. The majority of advanced and highly cultured Europeans passively watched this happen (or they actively helped). Most religious institutions passively watched or actively helped.
In an effort to stop the savagery, a bunch of nerds in New Mexico developed nuclear weapons. When this was successful Oppenheimer said:
We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says, “Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.” I suppose we all thought that, one way or another.
Our view of ourselves and our world has changed, and our attempts to deal with it have put us into unexplored territory. That’s why we don’t understand the Arab point of view. As far as they’re concerned, WWII was just another bout of colonial bullying and manipulation. Like most people throughout history, their powerlessness is their primary concern.
We see “peace” as our only real hope of avoiding a world-ending event. They see “peace” as victory over their enemies, just as we did pre-WWII. They use subterfuge and terrorist militias as proxy fighters because they know that they would lose a real war against us. We use our alliances with terror supporters in proxy wars because we fear what would happen in the process of winning a real war.
Since we have the ability to destroy the earth in many different ways, we can only save it (and ourselves) by moving on to larger challenges – like space travel, quantum physics, learning more about the stuff that makes up the larger universe, learning more about ourselves and why we do what we do. We can destroy earth, but the universe is still a challenge. We really need to move on, and Obama hasn’t been doing much to help in that direction. He’s seriously screwed up by attempting to gut the space program.
“Kyle, enjoy your optimism, but the fact that many civilizations committed mass murder on the way to civilization doesn’t change the fact that a bunch of uncivilized incoherent Arabs want to drive Israel into the sea, still.”
I never stated that this doesn’t change the fact that there is a continual drive to annhilate Israel (nor did I state that mass murder was committed “on the way” to civilization, but concurrently with civilization).
I am rather arguing against complaints made above that the Arabs’ psychology and/or Islam itself are permanent impediments to establishing peace. My point is that we can talk about a road to peace without needing to obliterate Islam.
Larry in the Silicon.
I used to correspond with Ms Honig for a time last year, we had a nice exchange of e-mails discussing all sorts of things. She is a really charming & intelligent lady.
Re: my Gaza plan – I don’t have that impression, most Israelis would like my idea, only the Leftists would cry for Hamas. But, I explained later that the whole world would jump on us, it was a theoretical plan, Ali asked me my opinion of what I’d do with Gaza. In my mind, my plan is the most humanitarian approach. I might add that Ali agreed with me.
OK, I just finished dinner, I really need to lie down for a while. I’ll come back a little later & chat.
Michael, did you dispute the numbers slaughtered, the comparative contributions, the role of coffee in moderating Islam?
Now that I think about it, Black Swan would be a great name for a new blend of ME beans…..
Yes Mary, and communication ranks right up there with our unique abilities. We must improve our power to educate.
Dude, you lost me. ‘The role of coffee in moderating Islam’ – did I miss a joke?
Terry, rest up. Black Swans, Grads, and high-priced supermarkets are everywhere.
Oh Captain my Captain…
Thanks for perfectly illustrating the Arab mindset…everything is someone else’s fault,
Everything was great until a)Britain and France and/or the Zionists arrived.
Oh yeah, of course…the Jews control the media! Of course we all know that, right? What you forgot to mention was that they control the US, Russia and Western Europe and everything negative that happens to the Arabs is the fault of a Jewish cabal.
Must be those Elders of Zion.
Your ignorance is really quite breath-taking!
Wait…my cell phone is ringing….its one of the Elders. We have a meeting just before Shabbat…gotta go and conspire some more!
I suggest you reeducate yourself with some books not published in Lebanon or another Arab country!
Michael,
I posted the typo I found upthread, but I neglected to thank you for the interview. It was fantastic, as per usual. Thanks.
I’m very much looking forward to the rest of your posts from this trip.
Also, I’m wondering — have you posted everything from that East Europe trip from last year, or is there still something coming from back then?
#20 Samizdat
Here’s one more article you might find interesting:
http://www.meforum.org/441/why-arabs-lose-wars
It’s an examination of the general incompetence of Arab military organizations, but the causes for that are rooted in the nature of Arab society.
————-
Mr. Totten: thanks for the fascinating interview with Mr. Spyer!
Joo-Liz,
I will publish more from the Eastern Europe trip, actually. I intended to do so before I left for Israel, but I ran out of time. That material is already partially written. It’s not even remotely time-sensitive, so I’ll get to it after I publish a few pieces from Israel since that’s what most readers are waiting for and expecting right now.
Yes, Michael, I forgot to thank you to for another great article. Much seems to confirm some thoughts.
Paul M, good link. I think Iran has tried to break from that mold with a certain autonomy for Qods.
http://homelandsecuritynewswire.com/mexico-deploys-israeli-uavs-war-drug-cartels Convergence acts in strange ways
Ali,
I agree that unraveling the roots of irrationality is a daunting and maybe impossible challenge. My point was that an assumption of rationality, in the face of its opposite, is not rational. I go back again to the American Secretary of State lecturing jihadists on Pakistani tv about being “reasonable.”
Information, knowledge and wisdom; rationality never confuses any of the three for each other.
Comic relief I received in e-mail today: on this date in history, “1928, 60 nations sign the Kellogg-Briand Pact, agreeing to outlaw war.” Rationality at work? You be the judge; let’s see, how has that worked out…?
Terry,
I admit I may have missed them, but I look around for the Arab Honda, Toyota, Gates, Jobs, Dell, the manmade products competing successfully on the world stage, the medical innovations…
I’ve stopped looking. Stagnation indeed.
MarkC,
From a distance, I can’t share, and am frankly puzzled by your optimism, having watched every American administration in my six decades engage in yet another “peace process.” Whether arriving quickly or slowly, I’ll certainly acknowledge region-wide peaceful co-existence, when I see it.
http://www.mid.ru/brp_4.nsf/0/CC9C7D192F0EBC5AC325777A0057E1AE
Issues the Russians bring up as their weapons and technology become more problematic. This may very well have an impact on how we evaluate their partnership with Iran.
“A perfect storm is brewing in the Middle East. We’re experiencing the convergence of two historical phenomena. The first is the rise of Iran, which we’ve already talked about. We have an ambitious ideological elite committed to radical Islam and the expansion of power. Second, in country after country in the Middle East, various forms of radical Islam are becoming the most popular and vivid forms of political expression. We have Hamas among the Palestinians, Hezbollah among the Shia of Lebanon, the Islamic Action Front in Jordan, and the Muslim Brothers in Egypt. We have an ideological wave from below with a powerful and potentially nuclear-armed sponsor on top. That’s the picture I’d want to place in the minds of the people in Washington. It’s the key regional dynamic through which most smaller processes have to be understood.”
This was my first objection to Obama’s strategy in dealing with Israel. It was the silly efforts with Assad. It was the lack of strategy in dealing with Iraq and Afghanistan and of course the way we played the protest in Iran and our counters to their nuclear aspirations.
It appears the Muslims here are Obama’s greatest supporters. http://www.gallup.com/poll/142700/Muslims-Give-Obama-Highest-Job-Approval-Mormons-Lowest.aspx
As long as people keep framing the conflict in the terms of Arabs fighting Israelis or as a conflict between Arabs and Israelis only, people will always fail to understand what is really happening. For one thing, the conflict is not a conflict just between Arabs and Israelis only, as it involves the entire Islamic ummah (world community of Muslims). For another thing, it isn’t even a conflict at all. Instead, it is a genocidal jihad of conquest being waged by the Dar al Islam, and that jihad, by the way, is permanent. Indeed, it will continue perpetually no matter how many peace agreements Israel is suckered or coerced into signing.
Therefore, instead of using the term Arab, the word Muslim should be used and instead of using the word conflict, the word jihad should be used, because that is what it really is. Since it isn’t just Arabs alone that are waging jihad against Israel, it is the entire Islamic ummah, which consist of far more than just Arabs alone. For instance, the Iranians are not even Arabs; they are Persians, and it was Turks behind the Turkish flotilla. Hence, as long as people keep framing the issue wrong, people will always continue to misunderstand what is really happening in Israel.
Captain – “There are still jews in the country. These jews do not belong to political side and they are living happily in Lebanon.”
R – A handful at best. No kidding they’re apolitical, and they are not “happy” waiting for the next Muslim pogrom. You do realize that the status of Lebanon’s handful of surviving Jews is readily available on line? Would you like some links to that supposed happiness?
Captain – “In 1861, France and England put people against each other. Of course the Ottoman period had its influence.”
R – Between 1841 and 1861 Lebanon suffered yet another of its incessant civil wars, the Druze (backed by the British and the Ottomans) versus Maronite Christians (backed by the French). The Maronites were slaughtered by the thousands. The Jews, caught in the middle, unarmed, and backed by nobody suffered worse then everybody. How far back in history would you like to go?
Captain – “Look at Cordoba for example. It’s a good place where Christians, Moslems and Jews once lived and needed each other but not anymore.”
R – That far back eh? Sure lets take a look at Cordoba’s so-called golden age (756 to 1031 AD), where Jews were considered third-class citizens, below even the second-class Christians, not permitted to be armed, taxed without representation (jizya sound familiar?), permitted only to work at certain “unclean” jobs. Maybe you should consider sticking with the 20th century era?
Captain – “An average American is busy in what to do in the weekend and he could not care less what is going on in his country or specially around the world.”
R – I suppose you have a definition of what and who an “average American” is? Is our current President an “average American”? Are our last two Secretaries of State “average Americans”? Because in just two comments you’ve managed to prove that you have no idea what an American is, average or otherwise. Do you know what we were doing 1860-1865?
Captain – “The average Arab is involved daily in politics before anything else. No insults to Americans. I am just pointing a fact. I lived in USA for 5 years and I also lived in Europe for a considerable time and I know what the priorities are in each country.”
R – By that token, the average Arab is a conspiracy monger spreading lies and planning for the next pogrom against non-Muslims (but we all know that isn’t really true, don’t we?). We (Americans) don’t really care about your insults, its your deeds that matter to us. Five years is barely enough time to become familiar with one American town or neighborhood, much less make a determination of what the “average American” is or wants. Our own political parties don’t know who or what the “average American” is or wants, they spend millions every four years trying to figure that out. Europe is not a country, it’s a continent (the EU experiment notwithstanding, because its not).
Captain – “I am not defending Hezbulla or anything. Did they attack Americans outside Lebanese soil?”
R – Yes, you are. Yes, they have, most recently in Iraq. Prior to that the two suicide bomb attacks in Buenos Aires (1992, 1994) both of which killed American citizens.
Captain – “Did they do 9/11? Hasan Nasrallah himself said he has nothing against the American people or the Jewish people.”
R – Of course not, 9/11 was done by Sunni terrorists. Nasrallah is a pathological liar and mass murderer who cannot keep his lies straight from one interview to another. Nasrallah is the living link between Amal and HizbAllah. Nasrallah is a puppet tool of the Iranian mullahs. Captain, you do realize that you have badly mis-quoted Nasrallah? You do realize that his quotes are well documented?
Captain – “They have the power to wipe Israel out and they do not do so. They want the rightful return of the Palestinians to their lands.”
R – Comedy gold right there. You do realize that the Merkava’s could be in Beirut and Damascus within a week or two, right? You do realize that 2006 was but a tiny percentage of what the IDF is capable of, right? HizbAllah has zero offensive capability, beyond its Iranian rockets and Chinese missiles. No return of Palestinians can ever be “rightful” because there is no possibility of the Jews being able to return to the many Muslim nations from which they have been expelled, including Lebanon. Assimilate and disarm the Palestinians, or continue to suffer the consequences of being a hateful, bigoted people bent on genocide. Deeds, not words.
Captain – “Why don’t you ask yourself what the Jewish or Zionist government did to the Palestinians and Lebanese? No Massacres? Please read the news in 1982, 1996 and 2006. Ask yourself who was throwing Katyuchas at Israel during all this time. Wasn’t it the Palestinians in the camps? Please read your news if you can trust it!!!”
R – So is it Jewish or Zionist? Since we’re going back in time, how about you tell me about the 1920 Jerusalem riots, the 1921 Jaffa riots, the 1929 Palestine riots, the 1936-1939 Arab revolt. Ask yourself, why the pathological hatred and need to kill Jews? In 1982 it was the PLO, in 1996 and 2006 it was HizbAllah that was firing the rockets. HizbAllah is quite proud of firing those rockets in 1996 and 2006. I trust the American press only slightly more then I trust the Arab press, or just slightly above zero. I trust independents such as Michael Totten (we’re on his blog, remember?) and Bill Roggio implicitly. Because they correct their mistakes and they don’t lie to me. The truth is an agenda all its own.
Captain – “There are a lot of Americans living happily in Lebanon and I happen to know a whole lot of them. Some even prefer living here and raising their kids here rather than in USA. To put it simply, people are people whether they are arabs, jews or americans. They all want to live in peace and that’s why the killing of civilians or any man is bad for that matter.”
R – I have no doubt that some Americans are living happily in Lebanon, are they the “average Americans” that you spoke of above? How happy are they in south Lebanon under HizbAllah’s Iranian thumb? People are not the same and not everybody wants to live in peace, if that were the case we would see no wars and no constantly repeated attempts to exterminate Jews, would we?
Captain – “Lebanon is a Christian country and gets supported by many countries in Europe specially France.”
R – This revelation of yours will come as a complete surprise to the Druze and HizbAllah. Perhaps you could be so kind as to inform Nasrallah personally that he’s living in a Christian country? Let us all know how he reacts to your claim. A lot of nations have tried to bring peace to Lebanon over the last couple of centuries, all have failed in the end. Perhaps you could ask yourself why that is?
Captain – “It’s a strategic point for the US to control or have it on its side. Americans always wanted to build a base in our military airports. It is interested in oil in Iraq and minirals in Afghanistan and to keep arabs under the leash. I really feel bad for the American soldiers who died in Iraq for “finding the WMD and bringing justice and smoking terrorist out of their holes.”
R – We have never had the slightest strategic interest in Lebanon, control or otherwise. Militarily it has zero value to us. We built a temporary base at BIA in 1982 to use as a landing spot for our failed peacekeeping experiment. And then, just like we had in 1958, we left. How strategic is that? We would love to buy oil from Iraq and minerals from Afghanistan, but people keep shooting at us and trying to exterminate our friends in Israel and that’s just bad for business. “…keep Arabs under the leash…” Excuse me, I thought you were trying to not be insulting. You failed, again. I don’t feel bad for the men and women we’ve lost in Iraq or Afghanistan, I’m proud of them. They removed one of the worst dictators in modern history, they recovered over 500 tons of yellow cake, and they killed or captured tens of thousands of dedicated Islamic terrorists. And now they are leaving…
Captain – “Of course Jerusalem rings a bell. Do you have any idea what is going down there? Who makes fun of Jesus and Christianity in the movies? Please ask yourself that!”
R – At this point I’m quite convinced that I know more about Jerusalem, both historically and at present, then you do, and I’m over 5,000 miles away. You clearly missed the point of my original comment. So how about answering that question? I’ll repeat it. Per your claim, What three religions came from Lebanon?
Captain – “There are fanatic muslims and determined jews and power hungry americans. That does not mean all muslims and all jews and all americans are bad! People are people.”
R – At least 120 million Muslims are fanatic about their intention to exterminate Jews. The vast majority of Jews are very determined to not be exterminated. Do you see the problem here? I never once used the phrases “all Muslims” or “all Jews” or “all Americans” are you even talking to me at this point? No, people are not people, there are at least 120 million Muslim fanatics who want me dead and they don’t even know or care who I am or what I’m capable of. All they care about is that my parents were Jewish. Do you see the problem here?
Captain – “I read many of MJT’s articles. I praise he took the time to live here and I love most of what he has written. However, he always portrays the pictures of some of Hezbullah’s areas and shows pictures of Iranian figures and that’s the image he is giving out to the world just like CNN. Why doesn’t he show the pictures of other areas?”
R – Pardon me for pointing out that CNN has never, ever covered Lebanon, or HizbAllah with the thoroughness and accuracy that MJT has. You don’t like HizbAllah being mentioned? Then disarm them, make them stop trying to kill Jews. Because HizbAllah is responsible for its own (Iranian) image.
Captain – “There were many Israelis (male and female) who came to Lebanon under a fake passport or foreign passport and they put their articles online. They all loved to live here and mix with the people and they all write about Beirut’s nightlife which to me personally Beirut’s nightlife does not mean anything.”
R – Now why would Israelis need a fake or foreign passport to enter Lebanon? Why can’t they just visit like any other tourist? Maybe you should try that nightlife sometime, it might do you some good.
Captain – “President Obama is paying for the mistakes of the former presidents. I don’t think anyone would like to be in his shoes.”
R – Snicker. President Obama is paying for his own mistakes. In four (or God forbid, eight) years we will release him from those shoes that he wanted so badly. Can the same be said for any Muslim or Arab majority nation? I wouldn’t want to be in his shoes either, but I know, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that if I was, that I could do a better job then he has so far.
Captain – “May God bless you all.”
R – Nice sentiment. Who’s God did you have in mind? Because I seriously doubt we have the same God. My God really doesn’t like people who try to exterminate his chosen people. How about your God?
SMOKIN,
R
ObamaYoMoma: the conflict is not a conflict just between Arabs and Israelis only, as it involves the entire Islamic ummah
No, it doesn’t. Israel has Muslim allies. And I am not referring to Turkey.
And as soon as the Persians get a new government, they’ll go back to being friendly with Israel as they were before.
“power hungry Americans”
How come American industry didn’t set up shop in the Ruhr Valley in 1945? Why not just confiscate raw materials we helped liberate? And was W. Edwards Deming the stealth, power hungry American, applying quality control standards to post-war Japanese industry as a prelude to America’s planned takeover of Mitsubishi and Sony? And why haven’t our gas prices plunged, fed by Kirkuk oil?
MJT
Like Terry told you, “a conservative is a liberal who got mugged.
Welcome to reality – you just have a little further to go.”
I agree with Terry, you are still not there yet.
When I talk to Muslims from Malaysia, from Indonesia, from Pakistan, from India, from Morocco, etc., I jokingly ask them if they support terrorism. All of them swear and insist that terrorism is against Islam and any Muslim guilty of committing a terrorist act isn’t a true Muslim. Then when I ask them if they will join with me in denouncing Hamas and Hezbollah as terrorists, they all instantly decline. I wonder why?
If it is not the so-called Palestinians, proxies of Dar al Islam, in Judea and Samaria, it will be Hamas, if it isn’t Hamas, it will be the Muslim Brotherhood, if it isn’t the Muslim Brotherhood, it will be Hezbollah, if it isn’t Hezbollah, it will be the Syrians or the Iranians. There will always be jihad waged against the Jewish kafir infidels, as the jihad, like the global jihad and every other jihad currently ongoing today somewhere in the world is permanent too.
I know it sounds gloomy, but it’s a fact. Remember what I said 20 years from now, when you are older, more experienced, and hopefully wiser.
And as for who the average American is, or where America’s political center lies today, after 62 years here, your guess is as good as mine.
Dear Render,
there is one God and one God only. True worshippers see that and the fanatics follow what their leaders say.
I agree that there are gazillions of muslems who want you dead. I don’t like that fact. But believe me and and ask MJT if you will, these kind of muslems are not found in Lebanon.
I am not that worried about Arabs fighting Israel and Jews fighting Muslims or whatever. This has been going on for milleniums. I am worried about the Islamization of Europe and Americas. You have “whites” fertility rate as 1.2, 1.3 and 1.7 in Europe I think of France, Spain and Germany, then these cultures are irreversibly going to be extinct. Moslems on the other side have an average fertility rate of 8.1. By 2050 all of Europe will be Islamized. I don’t know when, but in USA, white Americans will be minority to every other ethnic and religious group. I would worry about immigration and Islamization.
You keep referring to Hezbullah as terrorists. They are a resistance. What would Americans do if a state of theirs was occupied by Canada or Mexico and the Americans can’t go there. You said that Hezbullah did a bomb job in Buenes Aeres. How about the Israelis and their many assassinations in Lebanon including Hezbullah, Amal and even Lebanese Politicians? How about the massacres they did against Lebanese civilians (women and children) (1996 Qana) and Palestinians in (1982).
During 2006 I was caught in Europe when there was war in Lebanon. The only English speaking station I could have access to was CNN. Every day when I was watching it my hatred for Hezbullah grew bigger and there was a time I wished Israel would destroy them once and for all. When I came back to Lebanon, I saw the places where Israel destroyed and it was in mostly civilian places far away from Hezbullah area and they destroyed our infrastructure. You have to hear the story from all sides before judging. For crying out loud, there are tons of Israelis who are not satisfied with that their government is doing.
Since you like to refer to us living in the Middle East as terrorists how about we call you terrorists? Weren’t the Americans who dropped the nuke on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? What about the killing and raping of Red Indian lands? What are they left with? A few settlements? What about enslaving African people? What about giving loans to South American countries that they can never afford to pay back so you take all their resources? Don’t forget the trying of new weapons and drugs on American soldiers in Vietnam! If the US-Government truly cares about justice, why not care about the 1.5 Million Armenians slaughtered by the Turks and 90% of their lands are taken by Turkey? What about other problems in the world?!!! I won’t say American. I will say the US-Government goes only where it has benefits.
I live in Lebanon and I am not even Lebanese and when I read these articles or watch CNN I feel there is harm done to the Lebanese.
The fanatics in moslem countries are controlled by a person or by a nation. Those same moslem leaders who curse America and Europe send their kids to study there and they all have their Porsches and their 4x4s from there, and their computers and and and …
The whole world is a joke!!!
I lived with a lot of American families when I was in USA. The ones who have never been outside USA don’t even know where the Middle East is on the map. Trust me they don’t! Some ask me if I am from Lebanon, Indiana or Lebanon, Ohio or even ask me if it’s in Europe or Africa. American people live in assurance and they don’t need to worry about politics. A considerable amount of them are moved by emotional words of the person running for presidency and they vote for him. In Arab countries, when you go for a business meeting, it is 99% probable that you end up discussing politics before anything else. Maybe it’s the same in Israel I don’t know. Even the teens in Lebanon know about politics rather than waiting to be 21 to get drunk and be wasted.
When I said people are people I mean all of us were created in the image of God. Some are brainwashed and others are intelligent. If you put all these people together in same environment then they will behave the same. They all enjoy music, eat together at a table and share a meal. Religions binds people whereas spirituality frees them.
Israel and Lebanon are now “enemies” and it is forbidden for any Lebanese to visit Israel and Israelis need a foreign passport or a fake one to get here and the funny thing is that some of them come from Amman Jordan which is an Islamic country.
A lot of Lebanese were afraid that Hezbullah one day will turn Lebanon into an Islamic country. They are not afraid anymore. If you notice that in Lebanon we have Saturday and Sunday off rather than Friday and Saturday (modern Arab Countries) or Thursday and Friday (Saudia). Moslem women don’t wear burqas (as they surely portray on CNN). If you do see one then she is from an arab country. Some moslem women cover their heads as do some Christian women who do that when they go to church. The country’s president is Christian and they celebrate altogether when there is a Christian or Moslem holiday. Hebullah is resisting the current occupation of Israel of part of our land and invading our airspace every single day with their planes and drones. Christians are the minority in Lebanon and Moslems can take the country at any time but they don’t.
Even your recent ambassador to Lebanon admitted that he spend $500 M to tarnish the reputation and Hezbullah and he failed.
Even some arab sheiks have alcohol in their houses and their daughters wear mini-skirts when they travel to Europe or even Lebanon. Just ask the taxi drivers around here. I have seen some myself. I have seen how Iranian women dress in tiny shorts and walk in the streets of Europe. The whole world is a big joke!!!
About Beirut Nightlife. I am not interested in spending hours on the road getting there, nor standing n crowded places listening to hip-hop or trance or whatever they call that noise! Why not portray the big international festivals and concerts that go in Baalbeck, Beit-El-Dine and Byblos and even other places. Artists from all over the world come to Lebanon. Why not portray the churches, the touristic areas? People in Lebanon listen and play jazz, blues, rock, french, spanish, greek, … They speak 3 languages and some even 4. Show this image of Lebanon!
Have a blessed day!
I hope you find this statement better, Render.
Terry – It is not so much a question of optimism, as recognizing that a conventional wisdom concerning prospects in the middle east has developed, and whenever that happens, it is a good sign that change is taking place which the conventional wisdom may be obscuring. As the author states in “Freakonomics”, it is not that conventional wisdom isn’t true, but that one must keep an eye out where it involves “the contrails of sloppy or self-interested thinking”. The book quotes John Kenneth Galbraith: ” We associate truth with convenience, with what most closely accords with self-interest and personal well-being or promises best to avoid awkward effort or unwelcome dislocation of life.”
Let’s face it, an entire industry has been made out of negative scenarios in the middle east and the world at large, based on truisms concerning the aggressiveness and intransigence of the Arab and Islamic mindset. It’s not that there is no basis to these assumptions, but that their proponents would not be particularly interested in examples to the contrary. These people are so heavily invested in their point of view, that they will be the last ones to acknowledge that change is taking place. This is a profoundly negative dynamic which can lead to blunders and missed opportunities.
As for “sloppy and self-interested thinking”, we need go no further than some of the posts on this thread. Ken Besig makes the unsupported assertion that the PA has done nothing to curtail violence in the West Bank, completely ignoring the fact that the Israeli army itself stated that the PA security forces have acted so strenuously and effectively that they are considering allowing Israelis back into Palestinian cities. Is the Israeli army a deluded leftie? This is a concrete fact on the ground, my friends, stop ignoring it. None of the other responses addressed these developments, other than to deny that they exist, or that they are really meaningful, and that the Arabs will manage to screw it up again. I cannot say that the pessimists are wrong, but what is notable is the obvious effort to ignore or belittle the facts, and to deny any possibility that they augur a change. This is a clear sign of bias. I don’t consider myself so much optimistic, as open-minded and unbiased. I live in Israel and lived here during Oslo and the second intifada. I am well aware of the potential for violence, nor am I in love with the Palestinians.
Larry – I’m not sure how my description of the black swan turned it into a secret of the universe. I simply reiterated the idea that vast changes can come about that can’t be predicted from past experience, and applying that idea to the middle east. Attributing it to the forces of modernity – technology, the global economy, etc., seems an obvious inference. Nothing mystical about it. Nor did I intend in particular to praise Abbas, but he unquestionably represents an improvement over Arafat, and does seem genuinely committed to non-violence.
Maxtrue – Contrary to common knowledge, Israel in 1967 was spoiling for a fight. The population at large was in despair, and digging mass graves in the public parks, but Moshe Dayan and the high brass knew Israel’s strengths and their enemies weaknesses, and they saw the war as an opportunity to thrash their enemies and to change forever the balance of power in the region. The same may be true vis-a-vis Iran. The Israeli military stands to gain massively from the conflict with Iran. A successful strike against Iran and its allies would obviously be to our enormous benefit, and it is also reasonable to assume that Israel will receive unprecedented security concessions from the U.S. in the face of this threat. If the report from Debka on this subject is even half true, it would be a real coup for Israel.
Don’t get me wrong, Iran is a threat, and I’m all for a military strike against them. But there is also opportunity to be mined here, which may not have been lost on Israel. This is, of course, pure speculation on my part.
“Contrary to common knowledge, Israel in 1967 was spoiling for a fight. The population at large was in despair, and digging mass graves in the public parks, but Moshe Dayan and the high brass knew Israel’s strengths and their enemies weaknesses, and they saw the war as an opportunity to thrash their enemies and to change forever the balance of power in the region.”
Contrary to common sense, you confuse spoiling for a fight with despair over a building threat and instead imply an ulterior motive of opportunism. Since when is self-defense and opportunity? In Rahm’s playbook?
You go on to declare a successful strike on Iran and its allies (please identify) would be a boon for all. What is a successful strike? Do you mean Debka’s unsupported disclosure of a 2 billion gift of aviation fuel? Debka sites as a source a blogger who says this:
“It’s becoming increasingly apparent that the attack on the Gaza flotilla and the killing of activists on the high seas in international waters by Israeli commandos was an extremely well planned act of aggression designed specifically to murder pre-selected people that were on board the vessel.”
And what purpose was there for Debka to disclose gas gift if true? After all, Debka depicts Obama and Netanyahu accomplices in the coming demise of Israel. Again, the purpose?
“Don’t get me wrong, Iran is a threat, and I’m all for a military strike against them. But there is also opportunity to be mined here, which may not have been lost on Israel.”
No, it would be hard to confuses your claims? Lol, I am joking of course. Please explain the opportunity to be mined.
As I tried to link earlier, the best Black Swan I can think of would be for a new Islamic coffee bean: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/08/100824103641.htm
More seriously, a Black Swan is more like a Little Butterfly. We are talking about non-linear effects of initial conditions. I can see a few events that might act like butter flies. 1. Mid Term Elections in the US 2. break throughs in allied weapon technology 3. escalation on the Axis side which give the Russians and the Chinese pause 4. a mysterious event in which Iranian leadership “disappears”.
Now those are butter flies……..
(It appears not all my posts are making it to the thread. I will assume a message here and adjust accordingly as it is Michael’s Blog.)
Maxtrue -
Well, you are now mixing emotional rhetoric into your discourse. I am not implying ulterior motive, obviously the Naserite threat was real and needed a devastating response. I am simply saying (based on a historical reading of the subject) that the Israeli high command (particularly Moshe Dayan) knew that they could whoop the Arab armies, and like any good general, was looking forward to a fight he knew he could win (Levi Eshkol, a non-soldier, was far more reticent). If I can find the particular source where I read this (I think they used the term: “spoiling for a fight”), I will cite it.
When is self-defense an opportunity? Why shouldn’t it be? If it gives you the opportunity to destroy your enemy and build your military power and prestige. This doesn’t mean that the self-defense isn’t valid, but why is it impossible that an act of self-defense can bring positive benefits, and that military leaders might take this into account in their consideration?
I am not confused. The Israeli command in 1967 was undoubtedly concerned but not in despair. The totality of the Israeli military victory cannot be described as a miracle or a surprise upset, but the result of overwhelming advantages of which the Israeli military must have been aware. Indeed, on top of everything else, they had moles at the highest levels in Egypt and Syria, so they knew exactly what they were up against.
Not to prolong the discussion, but the main advantage to be mined, primarily, is the opportunity to fight and beat your enemies while they are still weak. In this regard, Ahmedinijad may have given Israel it’s greatest advantage – with all his idiotic prattling about the holocaust and destroying Israel, he has probably put his country in a position where it will be attacked before it is ready. Time was on the Iranian side, it would have given them time to build up their capability, and now Ahmedinijad has thrown that advantage away. And, debka’s credibility notwithstanding, it seems logical that the Iranian threat does give Israel the opportunity to obtain security concessions from the U.S. (as I recall from the Debka article, it wasn’t gas, but state-of-the art aviational technology, a nuclear umbrella, membership in NATO, etc.) Knowing Israel as I do, they will not fail to press for these advantages.
Gees…perhaps Ahab wasn’t far off….
“You keep referring to Hezbullah as terrorists. They are a resistance. What would Americans do if a state of theirs was occupied by Canada or Mexico and the Americans can’t go there. You said that Hezbullah did a bomb job in Buenes Aeres. How about the Israelis and their many assassinations in Lebanon including Hezbullah, Amal and even Lebanese Politicians? How about the massacres they did against Lebanese civilians (women and children) (1996 Qana) and Palestinians in (1982).”
Your thinking Render will find this any better, goes towards your “understanding” here. The comparison you make are absurd as you ignore the facts of history. You cite one example of Hizb’Allah’s terror and compare it with targeted killings of terror leaders by Israeli special forces. Please identify Lebanese leaders Israel assassinated.
New Flash: terrorists would not be allowed to attack Mexico or Canada from a US State leading to M and C occupation of said state. The comparison is so bizarre, it reveals much about your thinking process. You mock American’s understanding of the world, but I would argue we know a great deal about the whole world that doesn’t even get on the Lebanese radar. We know about the China Sea, the movement of FARC, the slaughter of Blacks in Sudan, the Russian claims about US violations of WMD treaties, the corruption of the Afghanistan government, the terror attacks in Western China, the drowned in Pakistan etc. etc. The people in Lebanon have only their world to think about and from what I gather, Lebanon is a mess. Are there even national flags flying in Southern Lebanon, or is it State Hizb’Allah?
I guess the markers you use consist in false facts, short skirts and the fact Christians haven’t been driven away. Given the way Lebanon has controlled violence and managed its affairs, the comments about Hiroshima and Nagasaki are particular galling, but then perhaps a possible Hizb’Allah nuke one day doesn’t come up in your coffee talk……
MarkC, I made the comment about the ‘secret of the universe’ because that is how the interviewer on PBS seemed to relate to the author, his book and world view. And I believe that Mr. Black Swan did indeed claim to be able to predict massive events through a sort of anti-logic or contrarianism. So it wasn’t a comment to you, really.
Your acknowledgment of Abbas’ motives is, I believe, honest and accurate, and totally undercuts your and Michael’s argument. Abbas simply needs Israel to keep the ‘PA’ going. The PA is now a canton consisting of the outskirts of Jerusalem, Ramallah (part of the outskirts) and scattered Arab population centers in Samaria and some in Judea. I do indeed have an ideological problem with the concept of a Palestinian state of any kind west of the Jordan, but I am still able to see Arab behaviors. Note that Mr. Abbas was apparently a big influence on Arafat, and insisted that Yasir refused Barak’s offer at Camp David. He refused two years of Olmert and Livni begging him for a deal that would have meant Israeli retreat from 95% or so of the ‘West Bank.’ Maybe its because he knows that Hamas, Iran etc. would kill him; I don’t know. It doesn’t really matter. If he has a ‘srtuctural’ inability to make peace, then that’s it.
All the talk here from folks who like night life and conversations, from Michael to Benjamin Kerstein to our Lebanese pal (Captain) is meaningless. You can find similarities between New York and Tel Aviv, between Paris and Beirut, between Miami and Athens. It doesn’t produce world peace.
Mark, your comment implying Dayan and others were salivating in ’67 and ready to ‘mine’ new opportunities is really stretching it. Rabin had a nervous breakdown, Eban was beside himself while LBJ told him, affectionately, to get lost, and Levi Eshkol was hesitating without end. Dayan was never the cool cucumber portrayed; you can see this in accounts of his behavior in 1973. In fact, my reading of histories of the ’67 events suggest that it was the uber-dove, Abba Eban, who told Eshkol, Dayan, etc. – stop waiting and go to war. We’re completely alone. Your argument is just too cool for school, and is disturbingly close to the Ray McGovern/Larry Johnson view of Israel yearning to expand. Israel was being led by secular/socialist Labour politicians who only yearned to build a tiny state on as little land as possible.
Captain, you say that fundamentalist Muslims don’t exist in Lebanon. I suppose if you excuse the Shiites from Lebanese-ness, you might have an argument. Your revision of the Lebanese-Israeli portion of the overall conflict is interesting, but only illustrates to what extent folks on the Arab side – no matter their personal background – seem willing to always blame pretty much everything on Israel. As Max said, if Israel did things like try to blow up Mr. Mughniyeh in the 1980s, it had very good reasons.
As usual, please excuse the typos which are more than one….
Captain: I agree that there are gazillions of muslems who want you dead. I don’t like that fact. But believe me and and ask MJT if you will, these kind of muslems are not found in Lebanon.
Um, Captain? Hezbollah lives in Lebanon.
I agree with you, though, and have said so many times–including in my book that’s coming out–that violent anti-Semitism is less prominent in Lebanon outside the Hezbollah areas than in other Arab countries.
MarkC: an entire industry has been made out of negative scenarios in the middle east and the world at large, based on truisms concerning the aggressiveness and intransigence of the Arab and Islamic mindset. It’s not that there is no basis to these assumptions, but that their proponents would not be particularly interested in examples to the contrary.
Yes, an entire industry exists that promotes that point of view, and you might say I’m a part of it, but I don’t agree that all its proponents are disinterested in examples to the contrary. I point out those examples at every opportunity. Some refuse to accept these examples (and we all know who I’m talking about), but the people I most closely associate with don’t have that problem at all.
“We associate truth with convenience”
I associate it with supporting evidence, otherwise it’s an opinion. Does bias lead to cherry picking the evidence at hand, and does contrary evidence get conveniently ignored? Sure. Beyond open minded honesty, that’s why education fostering critical thought is crucial.
Meanwhile, I imagine kids. In Gaza, for one example…”Be patient, kids, your grandchildren may know a world you cannot imagine—or their grandchildren. See, because change is taking place…”
“How about the massacres they did against Lebanese civilians (women and children) (1996 Qana) and Palestinians in (1982).”
Qana was a classic human shield job, there was a rocket launcher firing on Israeli civlians right next to a refugee camp. The 1982 massacres were in fact committed by Lebanese Christians.
“my hatred for Hezbullah grew bigger and there was a time I wished Israel would destroy them once and for all.”
You mean you were rooting for Israel in 2006 even though according to you they loved to massacre Lebanese civilians? Who do you think you’re kidding? This is a classic antisemitic trope “I loved da Jooos but then they did something so terrible bla bla”
The fact is you have hated Jews and wanted us all dead ever since you were spewed out of the womb of your Hezzie mother. You’re not the first person on Michael’s blog to come out spouting Hezzie propaganda and you won’t be the last. Do you think you’re fooling anyone? Probably you do, because you have one of the defining characteristics of antisemites – you are really, really, *really* stupid, “Captain”.
Another giveaway with “Captain” is his claim Israel is *still* occupying Lebanaon – in other words he’s pimping the Shebaa Farms con. Yet he claims to have rooted for Israel in 2006! That’s one of the best things about being Jewish – antisemites are the biggest morons in the world.
“Israel in 1967 was spoiling for a fight.”
What’s your evidence for this? Probably the same kind of “evidence” that “proves” FDR knew about Pearl Harbor beforehand – hey, another Joooo conspiracy theory!
Michael, looks like you’ve gone the ‘censorship instead of dialogue route.’ Pity, it’s your blog, but if this is the case – it looks like you stripped out my last post – then your claims about encouraging dialogue look pretty hollow.
MJT
No, it doesn’t. Israel has Muslim allies. And I am not referring to Turkey.
I’m sorry but any Muslims that ally with Israel aren’t Muslims.
And as soon as the Persians get a new government, they’ll go back to being friendly with Israel as they were before
At the rate it is going, the ruling Mullahs will probably be armed to the teeth with nuclear weapons in a couple of years. I do hope I’m wrong.
Nevertheless, remember this conversation 20 years from now, because if Israel is still around then, it will still be facing jihad.
Larry: Michael, looks like you’ve gone the ‘censorship instead of dialogue route.’ Pity, it’s your blog, but if this is the case – it looks like you stripped out my last post – then your claims about encouraging dialogue look pretty hollow.
Um, no. Your comment along with ten others got sent to the moderation queue. All comments were approved.
It happens once in a while. People get pissed off and offended every time, but I didn’t write the software.
ObamaYoMama: I’m sorry but any Muslims that ally with Israel aren’t Muslims.
That is the dumbest comment I’ve read in a while. I’d ask if you’d be willing to say that to people’s faces in Iraqi Kurdistan, but I already know the answer.
Moderation and the software
Are there red flag words or phrases? Of course, mentioning them here sends you to the time out chair, I guess.
But hints would be helpful, having spent time in the moderator’s detention room before being released. It seems silly to babysit adults this way; if somebody actually flames, toss his butt out the door.
If the Palestinian Police are doing such a bang up job, then why are the Israeli security forces still arresting eight, ten, or twelve Palestinians just about every night in Judea and Samaria. Oh yeah, the PLO Police do arrest Arabs, but only Hamas members, and not because those Hamas guys are planning to kill Israelis, but because the PLO wants to put Hamas out of business in the areas they still control.
As far as the IDF officers you talk to, don’t forget that the IDF has a lot of Leftists who will give you the prettiest pro Palestinian picture you could ask for and it will all be a pack of lies. Just take a quick look at the Israeli Defence Minister Ehud Barak, a former Prime Minister, Defence Minister, and IDF Chief of Staff, the one who assured us that the quick and painless withdrawal from Lebanon was the best thing to do, and that since the Hizballa no longer had any reason to attack Israel all would be well. He was also the one who offered Arafat the entire Disputed Territories and most of Jerusalem and by doing so managed to give Arafat the idea that Israel could be beaten into submission like we were in Lebanon courtesy of Ehud Barak. THAT terrorist war cost us thousands of lives and tens of thousands of wounded and maimed. So when you talk to some IDF officers who assure that things are just fine, I again posit the question, why is that same IDF and the Shin Bet still out there rounding up Palestinian terrorists night after night?
The answer is because the Palestinian Police won’t lift a finger to prevent terror attacks against Israelis, indeed, Abu Abbas and Saib Erekat have repeatedly stated publicly that it is not and never will be the job of the Palestinian Police to protect Israelis. In their own words, the Israelis cannot subcontract their security to the Palestinians.
Sorry, Michael.
Captain – “Dear Render, there is one God and one God only. True worshippers see that and the fanatics follow what their leaders say.”
R – So all those Hindu’s and Buddhists are all fanatics? How about all those atheists? Are they fanatics as well? You’re barking up the wrong tree and your “one God” is not my God. I already told you that my God gets very angry with people that try to exterminate his Chosen People.
Captain – “I agree that there are gazillions of muslems who want you dead. I don’t like that fact. But believe me and and ask MJT if you will, these kind of muslems are not found in Lebanon.”
R – MJT already answered this. I’m glad you don’t like it and recognize it as a fact. That’s a start…
Captain – “I am not that worried about Arabs fighting Israel and Jews fighting Muslims or whatever.”
R – I have friends and family living in Israel, and it worries me. Deal with it.
Captain – “This has been going on for milleniums.”
R – Ever since Mohammad stole Medina from the Jews. Right of Return?
Captain – “I am worried about the Islamization of Europe and Americas. You have “whites” fertility rate as 1.2, 1.3 and 1.7 in Europe I think of France, Spain and Germany, then these cultures are irreversibly going to be extinct. Moslems on the other side have an average fertility rate of 8.1. By 2050 all of Europe will be Islamized. I don’t know when, but in USA, white Americans will be minority to every other ethnic and religious group. I would worry about immigration and Islamization.”
R – The Europeans have their own traditional way of dealing with such things, I’m certain you won’t like that very much either. America has a habit of assimilating those who wish to become productive, tax paying American citizens. I suspect you also won’t much care for how we tend to handle those who do not wish to assimilate. No nation or group has a documented fertility rate of 8.1 (see Snopes). Are you implying that Muslim women give birth to litters every single time?
Captain – “You keep referring to Hezbullah as terrorists. They are a resistance. What would Americans do if a state of theirs was occupied by Canada or Mexico and the Americans can’t go there. You said that Hezbullah did a bomb job in Buenes Aeres. How about the Israelis and their many assassinations in Lebanon including Hezbullah, Amal and even Lebanese Politicians? How about the massacres they did against Lebanese civilians (women and children) (1996 Qana) and Palestinians in (1982).”
R – I keep referring to HizbAllah as terrorists because that’s what they are, by definition, by action, and by their own charter and manifesto (note that my government has considered HizbAllah to be a terrorist group since 1999). I ask again, what are they resisting? Wait, I know the answer to that already, HizbAllah is resisting the existence of Jews, aren’t they? See Maxtrue’s answer regarding your failed morale equivalence attempt. No state of this union is going to allow anybody to fire rockets and launch suicide bombers into Mexico or Canada, ever. So, for example, if Muslims in Detroit start firing rockets into Windsor, Canada, then I can promise you, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that the Michigan state police and the FBI would catch those rocket firing Muslims, prosecute them, and they would spend the rest of their lives in a US or Canadian prison, assuming they survived the initial arrest. How about HizbAllah, and the PLO before them, using Lebanese civilians and UN positions as a shield behind which to fire rockets and artillery at Israel?
Captain – “During 2006 I was caught in Europe when there was war in Lebanon. The only English speaking station I could have access to was CNN.”
R – Bummer for you eh? I can think of worse places to watch a war zone, like being inside that war zone. I can think of better places to get information from then CNN-Europe as well (is English your first language?). I used downloaded links of raw satellite feeds and web cams from the region in 2006 (Nanacam and that damned chicken!) and 2008. It’s the 21st century, ya know?
Captain – “Every day when I was watching it my hatred for Hezbullah grew bigger and there was a time I wished Israel would destroy them once and for all.”
R – My hatred for HizbAllah is exactly the same level as it was the day that HizbAllah came out of Amal’s closet. Maximum.
Captain – “When I came back to Lebanon, I saw the places where Israel destroyed and it was in mostly civilian places far away from Hezbullah area and they destroyed our infrastructure.”
R – BS. Israel hit at HizbAllah wherever they could, including sources and routes of supply, known launch sites, leadership. That’s the nature of war. Don’t want to get pounded, then don’t commit war-like acts. Note that HizbAllah was firing from inside the supposed “de-militarized” UN “peacekeeping” zone.
Captain – “You have to hear the story from all sides before judging. For crying out loud, there are tons of Israelis who are not satisfied with that their government is doing.”
R – I’ve heard their side. I’ve heard their lies and I’ve heard their repeated threats to exterminate me. I’ve heard quite enough over the last 46 years, thank you.
Captain – “Since you like to refer to us living in the Middle East as terrorists how about we call you terrorists?”
R – Speaking of lies. I have not, ever, referred to all who live in the Middle East as terrorists. Not once. You can call me whatever you like, I’ve already heard all of that as well.
Captain – “Weren’t the Americans who dropped the nuke on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?”
R – Won that war too, didn’t we? Ever heard of the Rape of Nanking? Are you defending the Imperial Japanese Empire? Do you know how the Imperial Japanese treated Muslim prisoners from British-Indian divisions?
Captain – “What about the killing and raping of Red Indian lands? What are they left with? A few settlements?”
R – I have a great many “Red Indian” friends. People I grew up with, people I worked high steel with. Guess what, they’re all Americans, just like me (what’s average again?). They don’t have “settlements” they have large reservations all over the American west. They’re free to travel and live anywhere else in the US (and Canada) that they want. American Indians have served with tremendous honor and distinction in our military and I’m proud to call them my fellow Americans.
Captain – “What about enslaving African people?”
R – Guess who was selling African slaves to the Europeans – Arabs. Guess who is still practicing slavery in the 21st century – Muslims (Sudan). We fought our only civil war over slavery. Muslims fight numerous civil wars almost constantly, over raw power and who gets to kill more Jews. So what about it?
Captain – “What about giving loans to South American countries that they can never afford to pay back so you take all their resources?”
R – Generally speaking we tend to forgive or re-negotiate defaulted national loans. What South American resources have we taken from whom, and when?
Captain – “Don’t forget the trying of new weapons and drugs on American soldiers in Vietnam!”
R – You’ll need to be considerably more specific about that.
Captain – “If the US-Government truly cares about justice, why not care about the 1.5 Million Armenians slaughtered by the Turks and 90% of their lands are taken by Turkey?”
R – You’ll notice that we’ve had several recent government resolutions about that very issue. Perhaps however, you could ask the Turks directly about it? I’m sure they’ll get right back to you, in between their rounds of bombing the Kurds.
Captain – “What about other problems in the world?!!! I won’t say American. I will say the US-Government goes only where it has benefits.”
R – What about them? Does anybody in Lebanon even know where the Sudan is, or say anything about it? How much aid has the Lebanese government sent to Pakistan? No, the US government only goes where it has responsibilities. Do you think we’re making a profit off of Iraq and Afghanistan? Do you think we really want to be there at all?
Captain – “I live in Lebanon and I am not even Lebanese and when I read these articles or watch CNN I feel there is harm done to the Lebanese.”
R – That’s your problem, not ours. Maybe Lebanon should not have attacked Israel in 1948? Maybe Lebanon should do something about its own residents attacking Israel today? This really cannot be a difficult concept, stop killing Jews and watch your international image improve.
Captain – “The fanatics in moslem countries are controlled by a person or by a nation. Those same moslem leaders who curse America and Europe send their kids to study there and they all have their Porsches and their 4×4s from there, and their computers and and and …
The whole world is a joke!!!”
R – I can’t entirely disagree with the first sentence and I’m glad you’ve noticed the hypocrisy of most Islamic leadership.
Captain – “I lived with a lot of American families when I was in USA. The ones who have never been outside USA don’t even know where the Middle East is on the map. Trust me they don’t!”
R – I’ve never been outside of the USA (does Canada count?) and I promise you I know where the Middle East is on the map. I can even point out the unenforced UN peacekeeping zones…
Captain – “Some ask me if I am from Lebanon, Indiana or Lebanon, Ohio or even ask me if it’s in Europe or Africa. American people live in assurance and they don’t need to worry about politics. A considerable amount of them are moved by emotional words of the person running for presidency and they vote for him. In Arab countries, when you go for a business meeting, it is 99% probable that you end up discussing politics before anything else. Maybe it’s the same in Israel I don’t know. Even the teens in Lebanon know about politics rather than waiting to be 21 to get drunk and be wasted.”
R – You just said that you were not from Lebanon at all, why would people be under the impression that you were? I’m going to say it again, you don’t know squat about the American people, average or otherwise. Did it occur to you that perhaps your American hosts did not want to discuss their politics with you? Frankly, from my point of view, most Arabs and Muslims don’t discuss politics at all. They trade conspiracy theories that sooner or later always come back to Jew hate.
Captain – “When I said people are people I mean all of us were created in the image of God. Some are brainwashed and others are intelligent. If you put all these people together in same environment then they will behave the same. They all enjoy music, eat together at a table and share a meal. Religions binds people whereas spirituality frees them.”
R – Far be it for me to point out that more then a few Muslims tend to get a bit upset at the very concept of an “image of God” and more then a few Muslims have a serious problem with music in any form beyond their own call to prayer. I promise you that if Nasrallah or any of his followers and I were at the same table, eating would not be the main event.
Captain – “Israel and Lebanon are now “enemies” and it is forbidden for any Lebanese to visit Israel and Israelis need a foreign passport or a fake one to get here and the funny thing is that some of them come from Amman Jordan which is an Islamic country.”
R – Your implication here is that the entire nation and government of Lebanon is at war with Israel. Guess what happens in war?
Captain – “A lot of Lebanese were afraid that Hezbullah one day will turn Lebanon into an Islamic country.”
R – They were right.
Captain – “They are not afraid anymore. If you notice that in Lebanon we have Saturday and Sunday off rather than Friday and Saturday (modern Arab Countries) or Thursday and Friday (Saudia). Moslem women don’t wear burqas (as they surely portray on CNN). If you do see one then she is from an arab country. Some moslem women cover their heads as do some Christian women who do that when they go to church. The country’s president is Christian and they celebrate altogether when there is a Christian or Moslem holiday.”
R – I suspect more than a few still have that fear. I know the handful of remaining Jewish residents of Lebanon still do have that fear, because they’ve said so. We both know that your Christian president has no authority over Nasrallah and the two-thirds of Lebanon that he currently controls by force and terror.
Captain – “Hebullah is resisting the current occupation of Israel of part of our land and invading our airspace every single day with their planes and drones. Christians are the minority in Lebanon and Moslems can take the country at any time but they don’t.”
R – If Gary Rosen is right (and I suspect he is), you might want to ask the Syrians about that very recent HizbAllah claim to Shebaa Farms. Because the Syrians cannot even give a straight answer to that question. Of course, the Syrian opinion is rather moot, because there is no way the IDF is going to give back that high ground to be used once again as an artillery firing position into Israel.
Captain – “Even your recent ambassador to Lebanon admitted that he spend $500 M to tarnish the reputation and Hezbullah and he failed.”
R – You mean Jeff Feltman? (because our current ambassador to Lebanon is female) You’ll have to provide a link or some other form of documentation to that effect. Otherwise, its just another lie.
Captain – “Even some arab sheiks have alcohol in their houses and their daughters wear mini-skirts when they travel to Europe or even Lebanon. Just ask the taxi drivers around here. I have seen some myself. I have seen how Iranian women dress in tiny shorts and walk in the streets of Europe. The whole world is a big joke!!!”
R – What’s your problem with mini-skirts and tiny shorts on women? Now how am I going to ask a Lebanese taxi driver anything at all? And why would I even bother?
Captain – “About Beirut Nightlife. I am not interested in spending hours on the road getting there, nor standing n crowded places listening to hip-hop or trance or whatever they call that noise! Why not portray the big international festivals and concerts that go in Baalbeck, Beit-El-Dine and Byblos and even other places. Artists from all over the world come to Lebanon. Why not portray the churches, the touristic areas? People in Lebanon listen and play jazz, blues, rock, french, spanish, greek, … They speak 3 languages and some even 4. Show this image of Lebanon!”
R – Lebanon isn’t all that big, several hours drive for me puts me in any one of half a dozen major US cities. What’s that tell you? I have to admit that I’m no fan of hip-hop or most trance, but it is music whether or not either one of us likes it. Those crowed places are a great place to meet young women in mini-skirts and tiny shorts. Lemme know when the Israeli band The Fading, the US band Anthrax (two Jewish members), or the Polish band Rootwater can play at the Beirut music festival…
Captain – “Have a blessed day! I hope you find this statement better, Render.”
R – Why, do I read like I’m a Wiccan all of a sudden? You repeat Jew-hate conspiracy theory over and over again like you wrote it yourself and then you wish me a “blessed day”? What exactly are you a captain of anyway?
GESUNDHEIT,
R
Paul, Larry – It’s the PJ Media software. It’s a bit buggy from time to time. You’ll have to ask Zeek Interactive about that…
BEEN
GOTTEN,
R
Your patience is admirable, Render.
If the Captain wants to know about America, in concrete specifics, not superficial generalities, he might direct questions about it to those of us here who have spent our lives there. Just drop “typical” and “average” from the vocabulary. Here’s a phrase to add though: “melting pot.” I’m a thankful American individual, and atypical in my current environment (which may be an understatement); the former being the important part.
Render – good retort to “Captain” but overkill I think. “Captain”‘s posts, like anand’s, consist of two main ingredients – gibberish and lies. All designed to camouflage their flacking for genocidal antisemites like Hez and Hamas, but not workiing very well.
Paul – Strangely, I’m not noted for my patience with fools in the meatworld – not at all.
Gary – Sorry bro, I’m a huge fan of massive overkill in certain subjects. I expect you’re probably right with that comparison.
===
The lies must be answered. They cannot be left to stand.
http://lipstadt.blogspot.com/2009/05/jane-fonda-and-anne-frank-banned-in.html
http://www.hdot.org/
360 DEGREE
COUNTER-ATTACK,
R
Just one worthy starting point for the Captain:
Tom Lovell
“Surrender at Appomattox” (9 April 1865)
http://tinyurl.com/2fj97ao
Beyond his artistic talent, Lovell was known for his painstaking research and attention to detail.
“With Grant are (left to right) Major-General Philip H. Sheridan, Colonel Orville E. Babcock, Lieutenant-General Horace Potter, Major-General Edward O.C. Ord, Major-General Seth Williams, Colonel Theodore S. Bowers, Colonel Ely S. Parker and Major-General George A. Custer. Accompanying Lee is Colonel Charles Marshall, his military secretary.”
Dear Render,
Maybe you are right. Maybe the Americans I stayed with in America did not wish to discuss politics. One of them was always scared of being watched or heard and he always took me to his garden to talk politics and he always made it look like we was watering the plants or showing me the squirrels and the chipmunks. Maybe the others pretended not to know where Middle East is. I apologize if I wrote “typical” or “average” and excuse my English. I was trying to make a point that most of the people I encountered had no idea about what is going outside the US or where the Middle East was and I did stay or meet with many many families. My point was that they don’t need to know about it. In USA everything is safe and available. They only need to worry about their daily lives and not bother with the news or politics.
By the way, my Physics professor in USA who had a PHD and had previously worked in NASA asked me if we rode camels in Lebanon, lived in tents, had cars and colored TVs.
What I was trying to tell you earlier is that there are a lot of fanatics muslems in a lot of countries who would love to kill Americans and Jews even civilians. But not Hezbullah! When did they kill civilians. Do you know 100% that they sent those random Katyuchas?
I don’t have any problems with mini-skirts. That is up to the people wearing it. Each one is free to wear whatever they want. I was making a point that a lot of muslim sheiks are hypocrits. They have wine in their house and their daughters wear mini-skirts as soon as they board a plane flying outside their country and that they send their children to learn in Sorbonne, Oxford and in Yale. Of course not all of them are like that but there is a considerable number. I gave the examples of taxi drivers because they drive them around to nightclubs.
You said Beirut nightlife might be good for me. I just answered that I am not interested in that nightlife but obviously a lot are. I am glad they are.
I was born and lived most of my life in Lebanon but my blood is not Lebanese. Does that answer your question?
When I was in Europe in 2006 I did not have access to good internet. I was on dial-up with very low bit-rate. It was a problem with the house I was staying in and it was far from the city where I could have had access to an internet-cafe.
I won’t post any links because it says on this website that there should be no advertisements. However, you can search Google for Feltman and the 500 million dollars. I just did and find the articles.
I won’t post any more comments. You see the world your way and I see it my way. Even your God as you claim is different than mine. ROFL.
I don’t need to defend the Bible nor Jesus. They can surely defend themselves.
For the fellow American readers. I apologize for my wording. No insults were meant. I wrote my experience with my simple English. But if I were you, I would care more about politics and see where the country is headed. Melting pot or not, one day you will be outnumbered and some of the people have a schedule and a plan.
to Render: Can I say “Best Regards”? Or “Have a good one”?
Over and out!
Captain Of Her Heart
Captain,
Many of us are deeply concerned about events beyond our shores, in addition to our domestic political concerns. Complacency, even apathy is too prevalent, however. I’ll add that over 56 million American voters, who do care about politics and see where the United States is headed, made an alternate choice for President on the 4th of November, 2008.
Paul S: Moderation and the software. Are there red flag words or phrases?
No. It’s a glitch. It is not supposed to happen at all. It just does sometimes. Sorry.
Ken Besig: If the Palestinian Police are doing such a bang up job, then why are the Israeli security forces still arresting eight, ten, or twelve Palestinians just about every night in Judea and Samaria.
Your question doesn’t make very much sense. They work together, and according to the IDF they have an excellent and very professional relationship now. (That wasn’t true until fairly recently.)
the Palestinian Police won’t lift a finger to prevent terror attacks against Israelis
According to your own military, that isn’t the case. If you don’t believe the IDF, fine. Argue with them. I’m just telling you what they tell me. Maybe you can think of a reason they’d lie to me about this, but I take their word for it. Your mileage may vary, and I’m not their spokesperson.
Wow – Swiss Double? ok then…not my taste at all, but I did ask…
Captain – That’s why I asked if English was your first language. You probably should have mentioned that right from the start. Many Americans (especially from my generation and Paul’s generation) don’t like to discuss politics in public. Especially when the politics in question is in regards the Middle East and/or Jews.
You probably should have mentioned your religion as well. Although it would have been somewhat impolite of me to ask, had I known it might have changed the tone of some of my responses.
Don’t leave on my account. Stick around, if nothing else maybe we can improve on your written English a bit (I’ve seen worse from US high school students).
Captain – Every single time HizbAllah fires a rocket into Israel they are aiming at civilians. Nasrallah has stated repeatedly and quite clearly that he does not consider any Israeli or Jew to be a civilian. The Argentine government has no doubt that HizbAllah was directly responsible for both the 1992 and 1994 bombings in Argentina, both locations were civilian and all of the victims were civilians. Please don’t try and convince us that HizbAllah does not kill Lebanese civilians because we already know better. Are there other Muslim terrorist groups in south Lebanon that possess long range rockets with ball-bearing packed warheads? HizbAllah members have already admitted that they went to Iraq to kill US soldiers.
Yeah, bad internet can be an issue. That’s why I pay extra for highest speed, with no TV channels to rob bandwidth.
Mr. Feltman gave sworn testimony that mentioned that money and what it was spent for just two months ago. Not one of the “news” articles that turned up in a Google search last night were accurate or truthful about that testimony. I’ll give you the link to that actual testimony…
http://foreign.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/060810%20Feltman-Benjamin%20Testimony.pdf
…and let you (and any other interested readers) be the judge.
Lastly Captain, for all of the massacres that you mentioned in your various comments in this thread, I notice you did not mention Sabra and Shatila. Why is that?
WE
KNOW,
R
Captain,
Render’s right about generational differences concerning what gets discussed. Significant cultural distinctions too, of course, even inside the American melting pot. Personally, I don’t bother where I live (San Francisco), regardless of the listener’s age, but that’s for other reasons.
Your English is fine for this forum. A phrase Michael uses occasionally is “echo chamber”; we welcome new input. If I don’t know by now where our regulars are coming from in their comments then I haven’t been paying attention.
We give as good as we get though. But you’ve seen that already.
Again I must point out that the higher you go in the IDF the more Leftist and pro Palestinian the officers become.
The Palestinian Police may occasionally give information to the Shin Bet that aids in preventing terrorism, but this is so rare as to be non existant.
Indeed, if the PLO Police were picking up and arresting Palestinian terrorists like you seem to believe, they would be out of business in short order, and since most Palestinian Policemen were only a short time ago terrorists themselves, it boggles the imagination to think that they are now in the anti terrorist business themselves.
Besides, I never claimed that the IDF as whole was full of liars, I simply maintained that there are elements in the upper echelons of the IDF which are more concerned with their Left wing credentials than they are with either the truth about Palestinian terrorism or the security of Israel.
Just look at Ehud Barak, he is the second best example of IDF perfidy I can give you. The best example of IDF perfidy is of course Yitzchak Rabin, former IDF Chief of Staff, former Defence Minister, and former Prime Minister who up until he was murdered was on TV and radio daily, telling the Israeli public how great a job the PLO Police and militia were doing to stop terrorist attacks, even as Israelis were being blown to bits or shot to death by Palestinian terrorists on a daily basis.
There is truth in the IDF, but so long as Ehud Barak is the Defence Minister, no senior IDF officer is going to say anything bad about the PLO, the PLO Police, or the PLO militia, or rather, the PLO terrorist army.
You may believe what ever you wish, but those of us who live here and see what happens here on a daily basis can assure you that you are being fed a pack of lies.
Ken Besig: The Palestinian Police may occasionally give information to the Shin Bet that aids in preventing terrorism, but this is so rare as to be non existant.
How would you know?
Perhaps you do know, and maybe you can’t say why. Either way, the officers I’ve spoken to about this are more credible sources than you are. I mean no offense to you personally. Surely you understand why, when I write about this, I can’t say “somebody in my comments section thinks what the army told me is wrong.”
MJT (#200) – Rats, scratch that “Quoted by Totten” achievement pin off the list.
HATTIP
HOUND,
R
Render, your verbal and logic skills are most impressive. I would not go far as Gary in his characterization of the Captain’s remarks (I am not that familiar with Anand’s work), but I believe there is a lot of truth in it. I have been reliably disappointed not only in Arab/Muslim (or in Captain’s case – resident in Araby) attitudes towards Jews, but also in that of many non-Muslims’ feelings about us. There are large reservoirs of prejudices in the humans.
Regarding the Michael-Ken exchange – I am not a military expert. I never served in anybody’s combat unit, but I have read a good deal, spoken with many people, and followed the Oslo tragedy closely. People I know personally were killed during the al Aqsa Intifada. I was living here then, but was in touch with people in Israel, and it was pretty awful. Israelis were afraid to go out of the house.
To the ‘objective’ part. What I would say, Michael, is that Ken is tracing a direct ‘lineage’ from Barak’s role in those events – because he had one – and the prior flight (not withdrawal) from Lebanon, including abandonment of the SLA. The fact that Barak has this past, and was involved in a military disaster during the first Lebanon War in which over twenty soldiers died and from which three were kidnapped, never to be seen again (except, unofficially, by Syrians who later spoke to journalists), and the incident in Tse’elim in 1990 (?), where he was accused of refusing army personnel to use his helicopter to tend to the soldiers killed and wounded in a training accident that he was viewing – this is part of his portfolio to critics. Legitimately so.
As Ken says or implies, the problem goes beyond Ehud Barak certainly. But Barak was Prime Minister (partly with the generous financial and logistical help of Bill Clinton, who previously warred against Bibi Netanyahu during Bibi’s first PM run) from summer 1999 to December 2000. During this time, he made the famous and disastrous offer to Arafat (it was not a good idea at all), and allowed the Arabs under PA control to arm, train and recruit right there, just kilometers from Israeli population centers. Some of this was probably just the Sabra bravado of a man who was a decorated commando from the Sayeret Matkal (maybe Bibi is sentimentally attached to him because that is Netanyahu’s background too), who grew up with Ben Gurion’s type of thinking – ‘it matters what the Jews do, not what the Gentiles say.’ [Yet, Ehud Barak was keen to do what one Gentile called Bill Clinton suggested - Clinton called him 'my new toy'.]
The cooperation between the PLO and Hamas was very tight behind the scenes. Of course, Arafat also followed the Oslo script and pretended to agree when Clinton and the Euros denounced ‘extremists on both sides.’ In any case, terrorists who survived their attacks often proudly announced that they were both PA policeman and Hamas or Islamic Jihad. Try to convince the average Israelis that this has really changed. Yes, at one level it has changed – Abbas has tactical need of Israeli cooperation that he simultaneously rejects. Otherwise, most Israelis suspect that nothing has changed.
The bottom line is about subscribing to or not subscribing to the Palestinian Narrative and the two-state solution. Nobody really, truly believes that the two-state solution is viable. Or, if they do, they are mistaken. Yes, I would like to preserve Israel as a Jewish state, but I am prepared to live with uncertain demography while it grows and protects its existence. With Hamastan in the West Bank, the state will conclude, based on economic disruption and mass emigration.
And Ken’s point, I think, is that Barak is part of the ongoing destination-less flotilla called ‘Let’s Keep the Fiction of Oslo’ alive. Beyond that, he is part of an establishment which did, and still does, wage internal warfare against the national-religious camp. Note the differing treatments of the spy-soldier Anat Kam and of the presumed Jewish terrorist Chaim Pearlman. Apparently no charges to be brought against Pearlman, yet it appears he was tortured by the security services. This goes back to Amona and Gush Katif, and decades into the past. After the disaster at Amona, a man named Yiztchak Klein showed that a police video released after the incident designed to show instructions to officers to be decent with protesters was faked. Given that Olmert made bellicose statement about the protesters before the event, and ignored an agreement by which the ‘settlers’ would evacuate their homes – an agreement with the AG – it’s hard not to conclude that guys like Olmert and Barak have any respect for those in the right wing.
Gush Katif’s biggest problem was how it showed the elite judges in Israel were prepared to violated Israel’s Basic Law to achieve a political end. Of course, Sharon also ripped the Likud apart and formed Kadima to make this happen. By Israeli law, this was literally an illegal act. Those settlers were living legally in Gaza. But as part of the attempt to salvage ‘two states for two peoples’ and in order to demonstrate the secular establishment’s control over the ‘crazies’, Knesset members and high judges supported Arik Sharon’s semi-demolition of Israeli democracy.
As to the reliability of the Israeli officers you spoke with, I am not convinced by your last reply to Ken. The high officers are indeed beholden to Barak and to this same establishment.
MJT
Your response sounds exactly like what people were telling me back when Israel signed onto the Oslo Accords when I told them what kind of naive mistake they were making. I was right back then and I’m right now. Live and learn. Remember what I told you 20 years now.
Dear all,
I wish to make a few points clear.
I have nothing against Jews, Muslims, Christians, Americans, Arabs, Europeans in general. I have friends from all the mentioned. I apologize for my writing sounding like stereotyping but how else can you write it given the context? I don’t like certain US foreign policies. I don’t like what Israel is doing to our country and I don’t like what Palestinians in Lebanon and outside Lebanon are doing to Israel. What I read in foreign newspapers and visual media is sometimes far from the truth or the complete opposite.
Render, I am a Christian and I went to university in USA. I meant “reserves” and not “settlements”. I could not find the word when I wrote about the Red Indians who I find very civilized and truly care about nature.
I am not leaving this blog because of anyone. I just feel that you see the world your own way and I see it mine and this going back and forth is leading nowhere.
Sabra and Chatilla is not the only massacre. There were lots of them. Lebanese have always been the victims of other people fighting each other.
I am not a member of Hezbollah. I don’t like the fact there are these issues in the country I reside in. But for the fact, Hezbollah ministers all have Phds and they truly work hard in their posts unlike some of the others ones who steal and do nothing constructive. Hasan Nasrallah’s speeches are even distorted on some local TVs here in Lebanon so I could only let my mind imagine how foreign media twist it. And if you don’t know Arabic, it’s hard for you to follow it. I could ask you how can you trust the media you get your info from if not from the source. In Lebanon we speak Arabic, English and French fluently and we can fully understand what Arab leaders, Obama and Sarkozy are saying.
I don’t like the fact that in some churches they indirectly try to grow hatred in people against muslims. The same with muslims against the jews and I don’t know about the jews. I say it again, people are people. Most do what is programmed in their brain, otherwise, they all enjoy life peacefully altogether.
By the way, there are talks about restoration of the Jewish Temple in downtown Beirut. I saw it 5 years ago and they had guards protecting it. I don’t frequent downtown Beirut so I don’t know what is going on there now.
I just like to clarify two more items:
All I wanted was for MJT to add pictures and info to show the other side of Lebanon since I mentioned about my experience in America where some did not know where Lebanon was and some asked me if we rode camels, had cars and color TV. Lebanon is a Christian country with full of interesting things. The second point maybe all of you won’t agree with me is that Hezbulla is not the kind of muslim party or sect that goes and kills civilians. It was mostly Palestinians and Qaida who threw Katyuchas into norther Israel. Hezbulla hit Israel during war time. It also defended itself when Siniora (pro-US) led government wanted to take out it’s telephone network. I don’t have the patience and time to get in argument over this.
“I won’t post any more comments.” (#193)
Bwahahaha. Like I said, gibberish … and lies. Render, I understand what you say about answering the lies but in the case of Captain/anand the lies are not only in their maliciously antisemitic casting of events but just as importantly in the way they present themselves. They make up stuff about themselves in order to appear as “objective” observers. I would never, ever, believe a single thing Captain or anand claims about their background, experience, who they are or where they came from. For instance, “I am not a member of Hezbollah”.
“Hasan Nasrallah’s speeches are even distorted on some local TVs here in Lebanon so I could only let my mind imagine how foreign media twist it.”
So how did they distort the speech where the savage bragged about having “Israeli body parts”? Ok, folks, get ready for more gibberish and lies from the guy who isn’t going to post here anymore.
Captain, you are without credibility. ‘Others’ do all the killing in Lebanon. So you say. And what is Israel ‘doing’ to your country?
Lebanese are innocent, just party-loving fun-seekers caught in the midst of others’ conflicts.
That might make sense if Lebanon never had a basis to exist; that is, is just an artificial creation of various ethnic groups that never had a basis to coexist – which often appears to be the case.
And how is Israel responsible for this? Because the Syrians and now Iranians use Lebanon as a prod and goad against Israel…
Two points the Captain and I agree on:
1. the mainstream media is not trustworthy; hence the value, Captain, of this type of forum. The Internet’s pioneers get a free dinner on me if we ever meet.
And 2. an apalling number of young Americans especially have an abysmal lack of knowledge about people, events, geography and history beyond their neighborhood.
The rest I come hear to learn about.
“here to learn about”
Fluency is no barrier to inattention.
Paul (#192 belatedly) – So very much irony in that picture.
Union Colonel Ely S. Parker (American-Indian, later Brigadier-General), standing next to Major-General George Custer.
The last Confederate General (also a Brigadier-General) to surrender in the field was a Cherokee Indian named Stand Watie.
FULL
CIRCLE,
R
Render,
After reflection, I chose this painting as a seminal starting point for the Captain; what culminated at Appomattox links rich, albeit tragic threads of American history. Follow those threads forward or backward from that date and you’ll learn much about our past.
The expression on General Grant’s face makes me pause every time.
Gary Rosen, on Future TV which is owned by Hariri, they don’t put Nasrallah’s speeches in full. They put parts of it and paste them together which bring out a new meaning and the the way they present the news is to show another meaning of Nasrallah’s speeches and put their own interpretations and feed them to the watchers. You would notice that they stuff hatred in their viewers. So how about CNN, Fox News or whatever it may be? As long as you don’t understand arabic and you don’t hear the full speech, what can you understand?!!!
Paul S., it is up to the reader to decide whether whatever I said was true or not. And the same way you decide if whatever I wrote has credibility or not, why not question the sources you read.
Whatever I wrote is out of my experience and what I believe is true.
Usually I write on technical and not political blogs where we reach tangible conclusions. This is the first time I try such a blog and I find it goes nowhere. We can argue till kingdom come and it will be a waste of my time and yours and we will be making more enemies of each other I guess. I would rather put this effort into my work and hobbies.
Gary Rosen,
I am not a member of Hezbullah. To be a member you have to be a Shiite moslem I think. For one I don’t follow prophet Mohammad. It is written that he married and divorced many and “he went into” a 9.5 year old girl. “Went into/unto” in arabic means had sexual intercource either by marriage or outside. That to me does not qualify a person for me to follow. I believe men and women are equal and women should not be treated as second-class citizens or as furniture. I believe in Jesus Christ and He is the only infallible man/God. Let me tell you one thing. The Quran is written in Arabic and Arabic is a very rich and complex language. Most muslems are not that educated so it will be hard for them to understand it and so that’s why brainwashing and twisting of terms and meanings can happen. I said I won’t comment any further but I will answer your question and will not write on other blogs since I made it clear that it’s a waste of time.
I praise MJT for coming to Lebanon and writing his articles. I wish he spent more time in Lebanon though. I can be a better judge of his writing than most of you. I just asked him to put more pictures and portray a better picture of Lebanon. Actually an American friend sent me the links to MJT’s articles. So far I read three of them.
Please do ask Americans in the street where Lebanon is. Ask them to name you a country starting with “U”. As per BBC studies, a few of them said Utah and Yugoslavia (sounding like U) and did not give “United States of America” as an example. Ask them what the religion is in Israel and ask them what currency they use in England! Also ask them what a triangle and rectangle are for that matter. Just out of curiosity, see what they answer. Do it for you and not for me. And if you happen to come to Lebanon, ask them the same questions or ask them about America.
As for my writing about islamization of Europe. They are taken from an American study called Immigration and Islamization.
So if you have any questions, I will be glad to answer them. If I am allowed to post links I will. Links for me are like advertisements to a news source. That’s why I did not put any.
“Whatever I wrote is out of my experience”
And, like everyone, you are entitled to your perspective and your opinions. Please reread and you’ll see who agreed with two of your points (me) and who here disagrees with you, and why they do. Take up your disagreements with them if you wish. To confirm what I actually wrote, you could revisit my related posts if you like.
What I have suggested are topics of cultural or historical relevance that might enhance an understanding of my country’s values and heritage. The closest thing to what you may have misinterpreted as criticism that I wrote (#189) was a suggestion to move beyond less useful generalities like “average” or “typical” in describing Americans; we’re far too diverse for that approach to yield much of value.
Thanks, Paul S. and note taken.
I apologize again for using the word “average”. I don’t think I used the word “typical”. I know I sounded harsh in my words when discussing my point of view. Thanks again.
Strongly held views are fine. The more factual evidence, personal or otherwise that we bring to our “classroom” here the more we all learn. I’ve never left North America; I’m a fellow student.
“The more factual evidence, personal or otherwise that we bring to our “classroom” here the more we all learn.”
That is one reason I am not enamored of “Captain”‘s posts – there is precious little fact in them. It is a very simple equation. One can like Jews, or one can like Hezbollah. Anyone who claims to like both is a liar, period, end of story.
Dear Paul,
I really hope and wish you make many trips around the world. There are lots of things to discover around the world. USA is 500 years old (baby). There are civilizations that date back thousands of years old (Lebanon, Armenia, Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Italy, Spain, …). Different kind of mentalities, music, arts, …
Every country has its goods and bads. Every culture the same. Like I have mentioned earlier, a lot of my American friends did not leave North America and some did not even leave their Mid-Western state. I also have a lot of American friends who were missionaries in Japan, Korea and mid-Africa. You can tell the difference between the ones who lived abroad and the ones who did not. Their eyes were opened and the way they talk is different than the ones who never left North-America.
Just stay away from fanatic people and religions. If any religion is followed, properly, they all teach about peace. Unfortunately, in all religions, there is fanaticism.
I have seen half the countries in Europe and 29 states in USA, 3 states in Canada and most of the Arab countries and also visited North Africa. I lived with Lebanese, Russians, Armenians, Americans, Swiss, Germans, Canadians, Greek and Egyptians. I love to travel and learn new things. I also recommend learning languages and mixing with the people, trying their food, attending their concerts and all that. I speak 4 languages fluently and am very familiar with 3 more. It helps me understand the people and cultures more.
Best wishes.
Captain
Thinking today about the change of command on Wednesday in Iraq, one image that has stuck with me is the ziggurat at Aqar Quf, 20 miles west of Baghdad. What would those 3,500 years ago think of our world, or we of theirs?
http://tinyurl.com/2vmqkhw
Learning from others
When I was being trained to teach English to speakers of other languages, one topic I found myself addressing frequently was unfamiliarity; actually, though it was difference. I would remind students, mostly from around Asia but other regions as well, that just as “familiar” is not a synonym for “better”, “different” is not equivalent to “inferior” or “worse.” Seems obvious, but it prompted many discussions, more than I had anticipated.
“If any religion is followed, properly, they all teach about peace.”
Wow, the “Captain” is such a tolerant, universalist kind of guy. Too bad that we only have to look back to post 94 to see that he wrote this:
“we know who controls their [American] media.”
WHO controls our media, “Captain”? C’mon, out with it. Don’t be a weasel, say what you really mean for a change.
Who controls our media
Actually, that’s a good question.
When TV stations keep from time to time displaying women in burqas when showing Beirut, and they keep labeling Hezbulla as terrorists and when they refrain from showing the good sides of Lebanon and in Hollywood they attack Jesus and Christianity, isn’t this a form of controlled media? Why A LOT OF Americans asked me if we rode camels or if had cars or even lived in tents? That’s the image imprinted in their brains from what see from TVs.
If you see a woman in burqa in Lebanon, you can say she is from Kuwait or Saudi Arabia or Iran. You can see girls walk the streets of Beirut freely in mini-skirts and if you visit the beaches you can see very tiny itsy-bitsy bikinis and even encounter topless ones.
I can see a lot of you are smart enough to know who controls the media in USA.
Yes I do attack verbally a lot of people. I don’t like fanatics or people who argue when they only know the one side of the story.
I gave you examples how some muslims are hypocrite even if they are princes or sheiks in their own countries who protect Islam and sentence to death those who do not follow Islam to their interpretation.
I have friends who are Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Seeks (spelling), Buddhists and even Atheists. I know some who are fanatically Christian and fanatically Muslim and I tend to stay away from them. I also explained to you how the Quran can be misinterpreted and taught in many countries. Sophisticated Arabic is hard to understand and if one sentence or part of sentence is taken out of context it means the total opposite. For example: “You can marry many if you are just, but you can never be just!”
I don’t wish to make enemies out of you. I was trying to open your eyes with some harsh words. Since most of you don’t find me credible, you can search the net with your high bandwidth (100 Mbps), get the info from your HD screens or even travel to other countries and search for the truth. Read the news in Lebanon and other arab countries. Read between the lines!!!
Captain…Most of us appear to be convinced that you are implying that Jews own or control the worlds mass media.
Clue time – We don’t.
http://insidethemiddleeast.blogs.cnn.com/2010/03/31/rima-maktabi-joins-cnn-new-host-of-inside-the-middle-east/
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The search suggestion actually isn’t all that bad…Try it.
Google image search terms “*** lebanon” with the “*” being any of the US big four alphabit TV news agencies (ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN). Or just Google image search “Lebanon” and see what you get.
With all of them you’ll get a disturbing mix of female eye candy (Miss Lebanon rocks!), political fanaticism, and random uber-violence.
Then Google image search “Lebanon al jazeera”… lots less female eye candy, lots more of everything else.
Women in burkha’s don’t sell advertising space. Once you’ve seen one, you’ve seen them all.
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CNN is owned by the Time/Warner Corporation. Time/Warners CEO is not Jewish. None of the members of the board of directors for Time/Warner are Jewish to my knowledge. One of the six executive vice-presidents (marketing) of Time/Warner is Jewish.
CBS (home of Rathergate) is owned by Sumner Redstone, who is Jewish. ABC is owned by the Disney Corporation. NBC is owned by General Electric. Fox, which is entertainment, not news, is still owned by Rupert Murdoch, although Saudi prince Al-Waleed bin Talal currently owns 7% of the stock.
Al Jazeera would appear to be owned by Sultan al-Faisal.
ok, now that we’re done with that, let’s take a quick peek at who own the Lebanese TV stations…
http://www.linktv.org/mosaic/broadcasters/lebanon
Wellwellwell (Gomer Pyle)…HizbAllah and Amal each own their own stations, another station is indirectly owned by the Saudi’s…imagine that.
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http://www.memri.org/
http://www.camera.org/
http://pajamasmedia.com/michaeltotten/
Captain – We have so much better resources at our very fingertips. And you wonder why we find you less then credible? If you had read between my lines to you earlier, you’d have noticed that I also had agreed with some of your points. But you ignored that, just as you left out Sabra and Shatila in your ranting about massacres.
We already know that HizbAllah, for all of its pretense at being a political party, is little more then an expeditionary division of the IRGC (Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corp). HizbAllah isn’t resisting anything because there are almost no Jews left in Lebanon to be resisted. Much like the Lord’s Resistence Army isn’t the Lord’s, isn’t resisting, and isn’t an army.
Want the IAF to stop flying recon missions overhead? Disarm HizbAllah and stop the cross-border attacks. Want peace with Israel? Stop killing Jews.
ROCKET
SCIENCE,
R
Gary Rosen,
maybe you are from the Rosenberg family. I know a few Rosenbergs in Lebanon and they use the name Mezher which is the arabic translation of it.
Gary – If you don’t mind, I got it.
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Strangely the Lebanese town of Mezher appears to be mostly Armenian populated.
http://www.discoverlebanon.com/en/panoramic_views/mount_lebanon/baabda/hammana_mezher_palace.php
Even stranger, if the above link is to be believed, the name “Mezher” does not appear to be a translation of the word “Rosenberg” or have anything to do with Jews at all.
Gary’s last name might have been shortened from Rosenberg, or Rosenstein, or Rosenthal, or it might not have been shortened at all by the geezers of Ellis Island. But most of all, Gary’s last name is utterly irrelevent to any of the topics at hand.
(Confusingly, Gary does share his first and last name with more then a few semi-famous and relatively unknown people. Including one of MJT’s old bosses…)
HEARTBREAK
ISLAND,
R
Render,
My x-colleague from the family Mezher told me this and during the war they changed from Rosenberg to Mezher.
In Arabic, Mezher comes from the word “zaher” which means flower or pink (rose). Yes there is a new town called Mezher in Mount Lebanon not far from Beirut mostly populated by Armenians. That’s true.
In Armenian Mezher is Dzaghgatzor is of two words: Dzaghik and Tzor which mean flower and valley and put together means flowery valley.
Mzahhar in Arabic means flowery or pinky/rosy.
What is your point, “Captain”, making up lies about me and where I came from, with your stereotype Jooooos named Rosenberg? My grandfather came from what is now Belarus with a different name – I’m not even sure what it was – Rosen was given to him when he came to America. In any case my family is just a bunch of Jooooos your Hezzie buddies want to murder. And the only time I “control” the media is when I take away the TV remote from my son, you Jew-baiting scumbag.
“I don’t like fanatics or people who argue when they only know the one side of the story.” But you love your genocidal Hezzie pals.
Gary Rosen,
I am not making lies about you. I said maybe (which means probably in English) you carry that family name. I also mentioned that there are jews in Lebanon and I know some of them and they are from the Mezher family and someone from that family said it is a translation from Rosenberg family name and they had to changed it to Mezher during the war.
There is no point I am getting at by this. It is just info for you since one of the posters mentioned that jews ran away from Lebanon.
Please tell me where Hezzies committed a genocide? Sabra and Chatilla? Or 2006 in Qana?
Render,
I find Bolton, Stossel and Krauthammer entertaining, although my term would be thought provoking, something I don’t get a lot of from entertainment.
News? I’m stopping at newsmax more frequently.
DIFFERENT
STROKES…
Captain – When was the last time HizbAllah returned a live Israeli Jewish hostage and how many times has HizbAllah returned a live Israeli Jewish hostage?
Sabra and Shatila were commited by Christian Phalange, (Sharon should have known better, but it was not his hand on those triggers, it was his hand that stopped those triggers).
The two suicide bombings in Argentina (1992 and 1994) each killed more civilians then were killed in Qana 2006. Were they not massacres of unarmed civilians?
Speaking of Qana 2006…
http://www.think-israel.org/lipkin.qana.html
This is the 21st century Captain. Digital photos have time stamps. Professional green-helmeted ghouls from Tyre repeatedly using and re-using the corpses of dead children get identified for who and what they are very quickly.
http://newsbusters.org/node/7002
IDF pre-strike video from Qana 2006…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fLzkzFCDqU
HizbAllah used those people as human shields for their rocket launchers. It is HizbAllah that is responsible for their deaths. HizbAllah then used the bodies of those dead human shields as props and the mainstream media bought into it. So much for who controls the worlds mass media or the accuracy of that mass media…
Now HizbAllah holds all of south Lebanon hostage, as a shield.
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/hezbollah-takes-southern-lebanon-hostage/
Captain – You said “Jews ran away from Lebanon.” Do you really think they should have stayed around for yet another pogrom? (If you don’t know what the word “pogrom” means, take the time to look it up.) Do you think they were not forced to leave by armed gunmen issuing death threats? They did not “run away”, they were expelled by force, often at gunpoint. Between 1978 and the present day Jewish community leaders were and have been repeatedly kidnapped and murdered, usually after torture. Is this not a slow motion “massacre”? Is this not an ethnic cleansing happening right in front of you? You said that HizbAllah could take over Lebanon in seven minutes (and I believe you on that). When that seven minutes comes, and it likely will sooner rather then later, what will happen to the pitifully few remaining dis-armed and politically friendless Jews? What will happen to all those cool nightclubs, and the incredibly beautiful girls in their mini-skirts and tight shorts?
http://jewishrefugees.blogspot.com/2010/08/how-syria-and-lebanon-became-emptied-of.html
This is why your “harsh words” mean nothing to us Captain. They are but insult piled upon injury. Just a(nother) disgusting attempt to blame the victim. You think we haven’t heard all of that before? We’ve been hearing it all for over 5,000 years. The same old excuses, the same old lies, over and over again. It’s all meaningless Captain, just like all of the false claims that Jews live happily anywhere behind the Green Wall of militant Islam. 5,000 years of lies Captain, and you expected instant credibility or respect from us when you repeated those same lies?
You’re in Lebanon, subjected to 24/7 non-stop anti-Jew and anti-Israel (and they are the same) propaganda from your captive and in some cases terrorist owned media, yet you have access to the Internet, you can discover the truth for yourself. We already know better…
ARMED
AND
DANGEROUS,
R
Paul(#233) – I have to confess that my exposure to all three is really quite limited. Of Stossel next to zero. Bolton very little since he left government service. The Hammer more often then the other two combined, usually through the links and/or emails of others.
I like The Hammer, but with only limited amounts of available exposure time I much prefer to fill that slot with Victor Davis Hanson.
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Wrestling with the Moderation Monster…
PIN!,
R
Render,
See what you think:
“The Perils of the Peace Process: Talks Will Weaken Abbas”
John Bolton
Wednesday, August 25th
http://tinyurl.com/2ulbew8
I know what you mean about allocating available time. My bookmark total is ridiculous, so even regulars get forgotten.
I wish Craig could take this software out back and teach it to behave.
Which Sabra and Chatilla massacre are you talking about, “captain”? The one committed by the Christian milita in 1982 or the one done by Muslim Amal in 1985? It’s funny how of the three religions the only one that still gets accused is the one that did *not* actually perpetrate a massacre in Sabra and Chatilla. But we have always been afflicted by filthy antisemitic hypocrites like “Captain” who are jim-dandy with any and all bloody human rights atrocities in the Middle East as long as they cannot somehow be blamed on Jews.
As for Qana the “captain” of course is too dishonest to admit the truth that Israel has to defend its own civilians by attacking military installations that are deliberately placed near civilians used unconscionably as human shields. Israel, in fact, has more regard for the life of its enemies’ civilians than they do. But “captain”‘s definition of genocide is Jews defending themselves.
Render and Gary Rosen,
like I said earlier. We can keep arguing at this and reach no conclusion. I don’t have anything personally against you. Thank you for sharing the links. However, I would like to add that the view of the world towards Israel is changing specially after Gaza 2008 and Flotilla raid.
Let’s assume for a minute that all I see and saw in Lebanon are lies. Let’s say the Lebanese are so far from the truth. I searched the net for Hezbullah using Google and found in the three of first five articles that I opened that Hezbullah is accused of Argentina bombings or believed to have done it. There is no proof. The same in Egypt last year. They are accusing Hezbullah of making terror cells. A couple of these articles are written by Robert Fisk and I don’t know how credible he is. I also read in articles that Lebanese Forces committed the massacres with the help of Israel’s Sharon and in others that Sharon was the one responsible. This information I am getting from the net. As a person residing in Lebanon, I was told that the Lebanese Forces and Israel were responsible for the massacres and the one who got the proof of this was killed in January 2000 by an unknown group since he was taking the proofs to Belgium.
I don’t like the fact that Israel is scared of Hezbullah. I don’t like that the fact Lebanese are tense every day because of shockwaves caused by Israel fighter planes invading our airspace on daily basis. I started to listen to Nasrallah’s speeches after 2006 war. In the last 2 years he says this: “If Israel destorys Beirut we will destroy Tel Aviv”. “If Israel crosses the red line, …”. “If Israel …”. So it is basically “If … Then” just like in basic programming language. It needs a logical TRUE to continue.
As portrayed by MJT and Spyer, Lebanese are very lively and love living and sharing it. And I can guess Israelis are the same. Remember what I said “people are people”. Lebanese are in general peaceful people. Unfortunately, a handful of them are being controlled by foreign countries whether by force or by bribery and living here I know which is which.
If you ask me what I personally want, I can tell you this:
1) Israel should leave Ghajar and the Lebanese Part of Shebaa Farms
2) Israel should not invade our airspace nor waters nor land
3) We get rid of the 500k Palestinians who are committing crimes and throwing Katyuchas at Northern Israel during non-war times. The ideal solution is for them to return to their homeland which is an independant Palestinian State. Or they can go to Saudia Arabia, Jordan or USA since they all care about them or their case. Lebanon is too small for these trouble-makers.
4) At this point, Hezbullah would lose the pre-text to be armed and will give its weapons to the Lebanese Army or itself be part of it.
5) US-Government to stop provoking one side over the other and truly help Lebanon and not be so biased towards Israel. UN should play neutral.
6) Lebanon and Israel sign a peace-treaty
7) And last but not least, I hope to visit Jerusalem one day and the birthplace of Jesus.
Maybe you will laugh at me or call me a dreamer. I am an optimist.
Regarding the HizbAllah terrorist attacks in Argentina…
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9983810/
http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/lebanon/tl04.html
There is obviously enough proof that the Argentines have issued arrest warrants, and they do have a dead suicide bomber’s body. The Egyptian case is a different and far more recent subject…
I never said everything on the Internet was true, far from it. But the truth is out there (que up X-Files theme music), if you know where and when to look, and what to look for.
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Regarding Robert Fisk. Not entirely credible, no. He’s become something of a 9/11 conspiracy theorist here lately, this in spite of claiming that Bin Laden warned him about 9/11 all the way back in 1997. I think sometimes some where there is some tiny nugget of truth in some of what Fisk writes, but for the most part his hate America/hate Israel agenda shines through, even when he’s being pummeled with stones from an angry Afghan mob. I would think it safe to assume that if Osama bin Laden thinks Fisk is credible (he does), then Fisk is probably not all that credible. I’m led to understand the Fisk lives in Lebanon, I wonder if his articles are translated and re-printed there?
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/19/books/review/19bron.html?_r=1&ei=5070&en=55044ab9f817eb99&ex=1153454400&pagewanted=print
Funny you should mention Robert Fisk (who seriously dislikes the Internet), Google search the term “Fisking”. The wiki entry will do nicely. Recognize anything from this thread?
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I have no doubt that Nasrallah is a belligerent bastard everytime he opens his mouth. He’s got a long and documented history of exactly that.
I have no doubt that a great many people in Lebanon are peaceful, fun loving, and not the slightest bit interested in flinging rockets into Israel or resisting Jews that aren’t hardly in Lebanon any longer. I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if they aren’t the majority of Lebanese. But it would also seem plainly obvious that those peaceful, fun-loving people are not the problem in the first place. It’s their neighbors with the rockets and suicide bombs behind the invisible Green Wall that are the problem.
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1: Not going to happen. The IDF has already agreed to withdraw from northern Ghajar (April, 2009), assuming the UNIFIL will take over security, the LAF has refused to agree, not surpringly since the area around north Ghajar is controlled by HizbAllah. If Israel withdraws with or without the UNIFIL replacing them, how long until HizbAllah openly takes over? How long until Syria exercises its claim to the same land? Shebaa Farms was captured from Syria, not Lebanon, neither Lebanon nor HizbAllah have any legitiment claim to that area. Israel annexed Shebaa Farms in 1981 and is unlikely to give it up as it is high ground once used by Syrian artillery to shell Israel. You don’t really think that giving up this strategically valuable land is going to bring peace, do you?
2: Disarm HizbAllah. Stop the rockets, the suicide bombers, the cross-border raids for hostages to be killed and in six months to a year later the overflights will slowly come to a halt. Don’t think that the IAF is all that thrilled to be burning up thousands of gallons of jet fuel on constant recon missions when they shouldn’t have to.
3: You’re offering up yet another ethnic cleansing as a solution? That’s not good. I suppose they could be re-settled into Gaza, there is still plenty of open un-used land there (really). I’m pretty certain that the Palestinians already blew any chance of the Saudi’s accepting them with their behaviour during the Gulf War. I know there is no chance in hell that the Jordanians will ever accept them back, not after what they tried to pull in 1970. The US already has an over-immigration problem, the last thing we need is another half a million self-exploding nutbags. So who is going to enforce this ethnic cleansing that you propose? The LAF? HizbAllah? Both? The UN? Who is going to force the Palestinians living in Lebanon, many of whom have been there for several generations now, unto the transport ships, the cattle cars? Don’t you think it would be far more humane and civilized to absorb them into Lebanon’s rich tapestry and multi-ethnic culture, to assimilate them the way the US assimilates its own immigrants?
4: You don’t really think that its the Palestinians that are firing the bulk of those rockets, do you? You don’t really think that HizbAllah is armed because of the Palestinians, do you? The PLO was forced out at gunpoint a long time ago. Does the LAF really need twenty or thirty thousand rockets? You don’t really think that the IRGC is going to release its proxy army to join with the LAF, do you?
5: Israel is a US ally, for better or worse, depending on who our president is at the time. The US is not “provoking” anybody (accept the Taliban/al-Q in other theaters) and has no interest in such. The US would really like it if Israel’s neighbors would stop trying to destroy Israel and stop killing Jews. The US thinks this is really not a difficult thing to ask of Israel’s neighbors.
6: A peace treaty would require a state of war. Is Lebanon officially at war with Israel?
7: You and me both. Maybe one day.
No, I won’t laugh at you, you live there. I might call you a dreamer or even an optimist, on a good day. But I don’t see a lot of optimism in the dreams you’ve shown us so far. At least not for Jews, or Israel, or Palestinians living in Lebanon for that matter. Negotiation is a two-way street, you have to offer something of value if you want something of value in return. So far you haven’t offered anything of value, at all.
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Just what I need to see…
A
HURRICANE
NAMED
EARL,
R
Render,
You drove my curiosity after you wrote me about how the Jews left Lebanon so I met with the Mezher family. They said there used to be a whole lot of Jews in Lebanon. The man of the family said that a considerable amount of them fled the country and others as you mentioned were expelled at gunpoint by the militias during the war. The man also said that some had to change the religion on the ID from Jewish to Christian and even changed it on their documents to protect themselves and their property. And compared to decades ago, there are very few left here registered under a different name for example Mezher. Mezher is a family name that also exists among Maronite Christians, Orthodox Christians, Muslim and Druze religions. They also name their kids neutral names as for someone else not to know the religion.
Render and Gary Rosen,
to support my previous statement here is an article for you
Renovation work underway at Beirut’s main synagogue
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/news/renovation-work-underway-at-beirut-s-main-synagogue-1.266897
“Renovation work is underway at the main synagogue in central Beirut, after approval from the Lebanese government, planning authorities and even Hezbollah.”
Captain – Many of us are already well aware of that synagogue without a Rabbi, and without much of a congregation.
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=3&x_outlet=14&x_article=1912
Supposedly the renovation work is now complete, minus the seminary next door which was torn down to give the apartments behind a clear view of the beach.
Just a little cynical, don’t you think? They’re gone, making a museum out of their last place of worship isn’t going to bring them back.
http://jewishrefugees.blogspot.com/2008/03/jews-are-gone-forever-from-lebanon.html
ATONEMENT,
R
“Just a little cynical, don’t you think?”
More than a little. Nasrallah probably will go to the synagogue to wave his Jewish body parts with full approval from “captain”.
Gary Rosen,
Here you are spreading lies. I would never approve of such a thing. As I have mentioned earlier, I have friends from all religions and I stay away from fanatics. I don’t wish any harm to any civilian. Each culture and civilization has something to offer otherwise by nature they will be extinct.
Let me put it in another way. I feel sorry for the 20,000+ or even 100,000+ Americans killed, mutilated, shocked, handicapped in the Iraq war. On the news they report 4,400 and sometimes 5,000+ killed. I think over 100,000 are between dead or dysfunctional when they go back home. What is it for? God knows. Saddam was removed a very long time ago. I feel sorry for over the million Iraq’s who died. All that for a few nutcases planting bombs here and there trying to ignite Sunnis and Shiites. We all have nothing against these American soldiers and rather feel sorry for them but we do question the motives of the one who sent them there.
Render (reply to post #240)
Robert Fisk’s name showed up on a couple of articles that I googled. I did not read his bio. I will read the links you just sent, this evening. Thanks again. I am trying to look at the world from your point of view.
1) Some of the political parties in Lebanon who are against Hezbulla say that parts of Shebaa farms are Lebanese. The Syrians say they all of Shebaa is. The UN is confused about it as usual.
2) Hezbullah and Israel have to stop their aggression at same time with a third party in coordination or control. I am sure you also heard that Israel captured a few shepherds in our land and fisherman in our waters and returned them later after investigations. A couple of weeks ago they cut trees in our land that the Lebanese army had to interfere and now US does not wish the Lebanese army to be armed with new weapons.
3) I am not offering an ethnic cleansing. Palestinians have the right to return their land. They are Sunnis and if they are, God forbid, naturalized in Lebanon that means Sunnis will be majority and what is worse than having a Shiite majority is a Sunni majority. You understand that everything in Lebanon is according to the religion on the ID. Who is president, prime minister, … It’s sickening but that’s the way it is. We just want them out of here. Lebanon is way too small for them. There are vast uninhabited lands in arab countries and they are of same religion and sect. They can go there. It is even better for Israel on the long run. Katyuchas cannot be thrown that far.
4) Hezbullah said they sent rockets into Israel during war times and they deny it when they were thrown randomly outside war-times. A few times Palestinians were caught doing that during non-war times and one time AlQaida. I heard those on local TV stations which are allies and foes of Hezbullah. Palestinians from the camps in Lebnanon are proven to be involved in some of the political assassinations. They are very well armed and they are constantly in trouble. They do fight each other inside the camps.
5) Why did the American ambassador constantly meet with Lebanese leaders who were previously warlords and who are responsible for 10,000s deaths or even 100,000s leaving their homes? The next day these politicians accuse one party against another. To me these leaders are the terrorists. On the other hand, ambassadors from other countries met infrequently with the same leaders. It is so funny that a couple of these clown politicians accuse Hezbullah of things and of being armed and causing Lebanon to be volatile while these ex-militia men have their people very well armed and have their own share of killing in their backyard and investigations are pointing the fingers to them for a recent assassination.
6) I mean reach a “peace deal” or agree on peace talks whatever they call it. Lebanon and Israel are not officially in a state of war but they consider each other enemies. Sorry it’s an English mistake!
7) I surely hope so. Many times I have driven down the “incomplete highway to Jerusalem” which stops ahead of the border. I am sure Lebanese and Israelis civilians alike are sick of wars.
When we are talking about the restoration of the Synagogue in downtown Beirut, a question pops up. In USA, the land of freedom of speech and religion as well as toleration, why are they opposing the building of the Mosque near ground 0? Not all Muslims are terrorists. In Lebanon we have active churches, mosques and druze temples or worship houses. in Lebanon you see Christians and Muslems celebrating Easter, Adha and Ramadan together. If you ask me personally, I would prevent Saudi’s from building mosques because we cannot carry Bibles or build churches in their land. United Arab Emirates allows churches for every religion and sect. Even the bad boy Saddam respected Christians and did not destroy their churches. Some fanatics did blow up a couple of churches in Iraq.
I hope I am not getting on MJT’s nerves posting too much.
Why are Americans opposing the building of the Mosque near Ground Zero?—ok, I’ll speak for myself, because it’s inappropriate not to—because I see it as extraordinarily insensitive—AT THAT LOCATION. To this American, Ground Zero is now sacred ground. Terrorist fanatics, espousing religious motives, however perverted, took the lives of innocents there, of all religious faiths.
Our country—unlike many others throughout human history—fosters religious freedom of expression. But we hope for sensitivity in the vicinity of one of our most profound tragedies.
Build it elsewhere, please. And, when you do, have the courtesy to acknowledge the system of values that permitted it to be built in America.
Bullshit, “captain”. You stormed in here pimping Hezbollah and demonizing Jews, then when you got pushback you fell back on the “I love everybody” crap. You’re *still* peddling the “Jooos control the media” stuff. On top of that you keep attacking my country. There are millions of Muslims in the US and plenty of mosques – I just read where they are building one in a neighboring town, right across the street from a Jewish community center. In Lebanon there is one synagogue (mabye) and no Jews. Just the way you like it.
Paul S.,
I see your point of view and I totally agree with you. They should build it elsewhere.
I would like you to take a look at this.
Muslim Demographics
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU
http://countercultureconservative.wordpress.com/tag/muslim-europe-population-religion-fertility-rate-islam-islamic-demographic-bomb-immigration/
Gary Rosen,
I wish to fix what I wrote earlier which lead you to say I was lying. I said there were “jews happily living in Lebanon”. I meant to say the very very few ones that I know are. If not then why are they still here. I don’t see they are afraid to live here. I did not mix with them much to know more about them. My ex-colleague from Mezher family told me that he is Jewish and he did not share that except with me from the same office and I won’t tell others here about this secret. He is comfortable living here. I can say he is a bit well off because of the way he dresses but he drives a bit better than average car so as not to grab attention (my opinion). That’s all I can say. Render opened my eyes as to what happened to the Jews in Lebanon since way back. I was just a kid during the beginning of the war and did not know about their history and now my curiosity is stirred. My non-Lebanese Jewish acquaintances that I met in person are all Russian who now live in Canada and USA and we never discussed Politics, Religion or Israel due to the sensitivity of the subject. Our conversations are mostly about Business, Marketing/Sales Software and Mathematical Research.
I don’t have anything against the civilian Jews. I almost got in trouble in Beirut Airport once for buying 5 pairs of jeans which starts with L (Jewish product not to advertise). I also purchase US made laptops and own 2 cars made in Detroit. Ottoman Turks slaughtered my great-grantparents and my grandparents witnessed that. I have a problem with Turkey but not with civilian Turks. About a quarter of my shirts are made in Turkey and I have two Turks in my social networking and forums where we discuss flamenco guitar and software development. So I am not a fanatic like others who would just not to talk to or buy anything from what is labeled as “enemy”. I certainly don’t like it if Turkey entered the European Union!
Our house, business and other property got damaged during the Palestinian-Phalanges war in 1976 and some of it got damaged again in 1982 with the cleansing of Palestinians. So we also suffered. Of course most of the Lebanese suffered. Christians were massacred by the Druze and vice-versa. Sunni and Shiite conflicts all over the place during the war. Towards the end of the war the Maronites and Shiites were killing each other within themselves. That was basically militias against others. The whole cocktail of religions, people, cultures suffered in Lebanon that is mostly because of foreign interference. My family is scattered all over the world. I don’t have more than 10 family members living in the same country. So if that happened to us what about others? Life is short. World Powers should leave the small countries alone (I am certainly ticked at this as you have felt). Let them worry about pollution and resources. One day water will be more expensive than oil.
I am not “pimping” a religious or political group. Since my early posts I am saying that they are not terrorists (one or two countries see them that way) and in my recent posts on this website I said they should be disarmed pending our guaranteed safety hoping we reach a peace-deal. And I am certainly not a member of any political party nor I support any.
Here are some links to support what I have previously written. Some are graphical so in case you can’t handle it, better not open them.
This information is out there on the internet from various sources. I would like to stress that I don’t mean to insult Americans but it is vivid proof on American newspapers that most people in America are not interested or know what is really going on in the world. It is the way a lot of people live there as I also mentioned previously from my experience in USA. They have everything they need and are not interested unlike people in Middle East where politics and religion are part of people’s daily lives. That does not mean I hate them. I encourage them to dig further and for their sake know what is going on in their country first. Last time I was in USA there were 10% homeless. That’s one problem to fix before looking for WMD which do not exist in Iraq.
Americans in the street being asked about the world.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0zE55i41n8
America the Ignorant
http://www.newsweek.com/photo/2010/08/24/dumb-things-americans-believe.html
“Lost? Don’t ask an American. Sixty-three percent of young Americans can’t find Iraq on a map, despite the ongoing U.S involvement there. Nine out of 10 can’t find Afghanistan—even if you give them the advantage of a map limited to Asia. And more than a third of Americans of any age can’t identify the continent that’s home to the Amazon River (above), the world’s largest.”
Genocides
Operation Grapes of Wrath 2006 (Graphical)
http://bregava.tripod.com/qana.html
HALT THE GENOCIDE IN LEBANON (Graphical)
http://www.euromedi.org/page/1220/1220_index_en.pdf
Genocide In Gaza, Ethnic Cleansing In The West Bank
http://www.countercurrents.org/pappe280108.htm
Sabra and Shatila massacre
http://www.countercurrents.org/pa-fisk180903.htm
http://pulsemedia.org/2009/09/15/sabra-and-shatila-on-massacres-atrocities-and-holocausts/
Paul S.,
here is another interesting video for you to see
Hidden Camera Video: The Islamization of Paris
http://gatewaypundit.firstthings.com/2010/09/hidden-camera-video-the-islamization-of-paris/
You have many kinds of Muslims. I for sure would not like the mosque near ground zero to be built there at all for the reason you have mentioned or even in another place in USA if something like this is going to happen.
My Muslim friends are highly educated and they marry one woman at the most or be a wife of a man who married at the most one woman. They surely don’t like this (video) and they condemn 9/11 and other attacks around the world.
As the video points out, some do have a political agenda. I have seen videos where they teach hatred of jews and americans to the bone.
“I don’t have anything against the civilian Jews.”
Just against the ones who try defend Jews from genocidal savages like your Hezbollah buddies.
“I almost got in trouble in Beirut Airport once for buying 5 pairs of jeans which starts with L (Jewish product not to advertise).”
That is pathetic, worse than “some of my best friends are Jewish”.
“I also purchase US made laptops and own 2 cars made in Detroit.”
Please. This is ridiculous, even if, or especially if, true.
Muslims in America
I can’t offer useful comments about other countries and cultures; I have no experience in any. If believers of any faith demonstrate respect for America’s founding principles as enumerated in the Constitution and embodied in our laws, they’re welcome.
Is Islam a “stealth” religion, prompted by Koranic directive to transform diversity into submissive uniformity? Dr. Zuhdi Jasser of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy, whom Del has said he respects but considers a minority voice, sees no inconsistency in adherence to both Islam and historic American cultural values. Michael has written about his first person experiences in muslim cultures resembling cosmopolitan Europe more than Saudi Arabia.
Is the goal, then to assimilate or transform? The answer will determine the future of what we have today.
On a lighter, clarifying note, those familiar with the Star Trek tv series will remember the Borg, whose motto was “You will be assimilated.” They actually meant transformed; a crucial distinction semantically from my use above.
WebMaster,
I see that my comments only show to the person who I addressed in this blog. I hope this gets displayed as is and I promise I won’t post any other or you can filter me as SPAM after this one.
MJT,
thanks for letting me express some of my opinion. I apologize for the numerous and lengthy posts. I am just interested in how you will reference Hezbullah in your coming book. Terrorist? Resistance? Any other?
Jonathan Spyer,
You surely got “balls of steel”!
Paul S.,
I wish you success in your studies and wish life gives you its best. I hope you can travel the world and discover other cultures to better understand them.
Render,
thanks for the links. Some were eye-opening. Others I agree in parts. “Captain” stands for pilot. Don’t worry, I am not going to fly into any buildings. My landings are always the same count as my take-offs.
Gary Rosen,
Please read post #29.
“harshness” creates anger, anger motivation and motivation creates action. I got you to answer. No hard feelings here.
“peace and love” are not crap. If Israel was accepted in the region, it would not do the things it’s doing and would not suffer the doings of others upon it. Acceptance and Love go hand in hand.
You are Jewish and I don’t hate you because of that or wish harm on you. We just disagree on views. How I buy Jewish and American products if I were a radical or fanatic or hater?
Smarm doesn’t work on me, “captain”. You’re still peddling the “Joooos control the media” lies even though the MSM is overwhelmingly hostile to Israel, not to mention the European press which is indistinguishable from der Sturmer these days. You revealed yourself, and it’s too late to backpedal as you are so furiously trying to do.
Captain – We’re all seeing your comments, (those of us that are still checking three or four threads down that is). Sometimes the Moderation Monster will hold a comment for a while, especially if it has multiple links contained within it.
===
Captain – “Robert Fisk’s name showed up on a couple of articles that I googled. I did not read his bio. I will read the links you just sent, this evening. Thanks again. I am trying to look at the world from your point of view.”
R – I appreciate that Captain, really I do. And I appreciate that you took the time to look at my links. Like I said much earlier, it’s a start.
===
Captain – “1) Some of the political parties in Lebanon who are against Hezbulla say that parts of Shebaa farms are Lebanese. The Syrians say they all of Shebaa is. The UN is confused about it as usual.”
R – Yes, I’m aware of that. However neither the more recent Lebanese claim nor the slightly older French granted Syrian claim have any basis for legitimacy. Any such basis was violated when Syria used the farms as an artillery observation point to fire on civilians in a war that Syria declared. They lost the war and the observation point. They have no right to have it back.
Captain – “2) Hezbullah and Israel have to stop their aggression at same time with a third party in coordination or control. I am sure you also heard that Israel captured a few shepherds in our land and fisherman in our waters and returned them later after investigations. A couple of weeks ago they cut trees in our land that the Lebanese army had to interfere and now US does not wish the Lebanese army to be armed with new weapons.”
R – No, HizbAllah has to stop existing as an armed independent militia inside of Lebanon. No third party can enforce this, certainly not the UN with its multi-decade string of failure. “Returned them later” is a key and crucial detail Captain. (I asked you this once before) When was the last time HizbAllah returned a live Israeli Jew? MJT has a post here regarding that very tree-cutting incident. The single tree in question was not on Lebanese land and the LAF had no right or reason to open fire, (think about that for a second Captain, is a single tree really worth somebody’s life?).
Captain – “3) I am not offering an ethnic cleansing. Palestinians have the right to return their land. They are Sunnis and if they are, God forbid, naturalized in Lebanon that means Sunnis will be majority and what is worse than having a Shiite majority is a Sunni majority. You understand that everything in Lebanon is according to the religion on the ID. Who is president, prime minister, … It’s sickening but that’s the way it is. We just want them out of here. Lebanon is way too small for them. There are vast uninhabited lands in arab countries and they are of same religion and sect. They can go there. It is even better for Israel on the long run. Katyuchas cannot be thrown that far.”
R – You are talking about removing around half a million people by force – you’ll forgive me (us) if that looks like the very definition of an ethnic cleansing. No Captain, they do not have a mythical “right of return” to lands they voluntarily abandoned or were forced off of, just as the millions of Jews forced out of dozens of Muslim nations over the last fifty years do not have a right of return to those same Muslim nations. Yes, I do understand about Lebanon’s long standing attempt to remain ethnically balanced. I also understand that you wish to inflict those half million or so Sunni Palestinians upon Israel, who quite rightfully has somewhat more pressing concerns regarding such an ethnic balance. In that sense it might be better for all if Lebanon’s Christian population moved to Israel. What you are calling Katushka’s are Soviet-pattern 122mm rockets which have a range up to 20km or more, depending on the make and model. Both HAMAS and HizbAllah use them. HizbAllah also has considerably larger (upwards of 300mm) and longer range rockets and missiles in its inventory. I don’t disagree that there are vast uninhabited lands in Arab countries. But as I’ve pointed out already, the Palestinians have already worn out their welcome in just about every Arab country they’ve been in, and then some. I also have to point out that you’re proposing something very much like the American Indian reservation system within those Arab countries. I thought that was a bad thing? The Saudi’s alone have enough land and money that they could build a fully functional city for the Palestinians, all of them, if the Saudi’s were so inclined.
Captain – “4) Hezbullah said they sent rockets into Israel during war times and they deny it when they were thrown randomly outside war-times. A few times Palestinians were caught doing that during non-war times and one time AlQaida. I heard those on local TV stations which are allies and foes of Hezbullah. Palestinians from the camps in Lebnanon are proven to be involved in some of the political assassinations. They are very well armed and they are constantly in trouble. They do fight each other inside the camps.”
R – 2006 started because Nasrallah ordered a kidnapping raid on an IDF border patrol (one of many such). HizbAllah fired rockets at numerous civilian locations all along the border at the same time as that raid, in order to cover the raiding party and distract the IDF defenses. Again, HizbAllah is not resisting and HizbAllah is always in a state of war. I have no doubt that Palestinian and al-Q allied groups in Lebanon are also firing rockets at Israel from time to time. But I have to point out that they are doing so from territory that is supposed to be de-militarized and that de-militarization is supposed to be enforced by the UN. We both know that that same area is actually controlled by HizbAllah who should know full well who is firing rockets from where and when. I have no doubt that the Palestinians in Lebanon are armed and extremely troublesome. They have quite the reputation for just such behavior wherever they go, in fact its about the only reputation the Palestinians are known for, outside of rampant Jew hate. I also know that the LAF and HizbAllah are both considerably better armed and quite a bit larger then the armed Palestinian groups within Lebanon. The LAF has made a start at disarming at least some of those groups, what has HizbAllah done to help the LAF in this job?
Captain – “5) Why did the American ambassador constantly meet with Lebanese leaders who were previously warlords and who are responsible for 10,000s deaths or even 100,000s leaving their homes? The next day these politicians accuse one party against another. To me these leaders are the terrorists. On the other hand, ambassadors from other countries met infrequently with the same leaders. It is so funny that a couple of these clown politicians accuse Hezbullah of things and of being armed and causing Lebanon to be volatile while these ex-militia men have their people very well armed and have their own share of killing in their backyard and investigations are pointing the fingers to them for a recent assassination.”
R – Because American ambassadors, like all other ambassadors, are required to meet with all kinds of thugs and assholes. It’s their job, they call it being diplomatic. Much like Saad Hariri had to meet with Assad and cut a deal with Nasrallah.
Captain – “6) I mean reach a “peace deal” or agree on peace talks whatever they call it. Lebanon and Israel are not officially in a state of war but they consider each other enemies. Sorry it’s an English mistake!”
R – I think I understand what you’re trying to get at. What we currently have between Israel and Lebanon is what’s called a state of war without an official declaration of war. Much like Nasser’s War of Attrition phase (1956-1967), he wanted the benefits of war (such as they are) without the side effects of actually declaring war (like losing again). In such cases sooner or later the other side is going to stop pretending. Because nobody likes being repeatedly punched in the face by somebody that keeps denying that they’re punching, or that those fists are theirs. Negotiations can fix that, but not until the punches stop being thrown. I can promise you that Israel is not going to stop counter-punching, so it’s up to everybody on the other side to stop first.
Captain – “7) I surely hope so. Many times I have driven down the “incomplete highway to Jerusalem” which stops ahead of the border. I am sure Lebanese and Israelis civilians alike are sick of wars.”
R – For thousands of years Jews had a saying wherever they lived. “Next year in Jerusalem.” If Jerusalem were under Palestinian/Muslim control we would have no chance to meet there, you and I.
==
Captain – “When we are talking about the restoration of the Synagogue in downtown Beirut, a question pops up. In USA, the land of freedom of speech and religion as well as toleration, why are they opposing the building of the Mosque near ground 0?”
R – Because it’s not a mosque, its a “cultural center” designed to celebrate a great victory over the infidel (that’s us). Because Rauf, while pretending to be a Sufi is following Salafist doctrine. Because almost 3,000 Americans, of all races, religions, and creeds were murdered there by Islamic terrorists. Because in depth investigation has revealed that the entire concept is little more then a scam to better Rauf’s own lifestyle. Because the residents of NYC know that Rauf already has a mosque in that same location and they can see the young thugs that hang around out front of the place. The residents of NYC aren’t stupid (for the most part) they know what they’re seeing.
Captain – “Not all Muslims are terrorists.”
R – I never said they were, but Rauf himself is connected to several different terrorist support groups.
Captain – “In Lebanon we have active churches, mosques and druze temples or worship houses. in Lebanon you see Christians and Muslems celebrating Easter, Adha and Ramadan together.”
R – But only one empty synagogue, no Rabbi’s, and no Jewish services. That makes for a lonely New Years for a tiny handful of Lebanon’s residents. NYC has hundreds of synagogues, churches, and mosques. Do you understand why many NYC residents might think you have don’t have the right to even ask that question from Lebanon?
Captain – “If you ask me personally, I would prevent Saudi’s from building mosques because we cannot carry Bibles or build churches in their land.”
R – Many of us have said exactly the same thing. And we’ve been accused of racism for saying it.
Captain – “United Arab Emirates allows churches for every religion and sect.”
R – The UAE is slightly closer to the 21st century then many of their brethren. But not by much…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_United_Arab_Emirates
R – There are no Jews and no synagogues in the UAE.
Captain – “Even the bad boy Saddam respected Christians and did not destroy their churches. Some fanatics did blow up a couple of churches in Iraq.”
R – Saddam did not respect anybody or anything accept himself. Christians in Iraq were persecuted by the Saddamite regime. That’s all pretty well documented.
Captain – “I hope I am not getting on MJT’s nerves posting too much.”
R – Somehow I doubt you are. I’m not going to speak for MJT (who writes much more better then I), but I suspect he’s rather enjoying our little conversation in the back of one of his dead threads. Maybe not so much Gary’s “bad cop” role, but nonetheless…it too has its place.
CARRY
ON,
R