How Women Ruin Romance by Talking Too Much
To the consternation of Jezebel.com and other progressive “girly” sites, we’ve recently witnessed an uptick in “controversial” articles by women, for women, with titles like “Why You’re Not Married.”
That HuffPo piece by Tracy McMillan, based on her new book, reiterates stuff I read as a teenager, in 1950s tomes reissued in mass-market paperbacks — sporting covers of pensive, bell-bottomed strawberry blondes posing in soft-focus fields, designed to make them more saleable in the ’70s.
Similar dating advice can be found in arcane classics like Advice to a Young Wife from an Old Mistress and the more recent Secrets About Men from the Mayflower Madam (who trained her “girls” in deportment and other finishing-school finer points).
Advice like: Don’t act like a slut (in public). Listen. Be gracious and grateful.
And don’t talk too much.
My niece got married a few years ago and I attended the wedding. We live >2000 miles apart and have for many years so I can’t say I know her or the guy she married very well. Still, within brief time I visited with them I couldn’t help but notice a constant stream of snide & snarky little remarks from her directed at him. Oh, it was always “just teasing” of course. Still, there was the constant tide of snark. No subject could arise where she wasn’t getting a little dig in here or there; that sly little cut. He seemed to bear it well. Hey, they’re just jokes right? He was a good natured guy and liked by everyone. But I thought I could see his eyes get a bit tight from time to time. Nobody else seemed to notice though. The marriage was over in less than two years. A lot of people were surprised by the divorce. I wasn’t.
Good one that I decided to highlight as a comment of the day – http://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/2012/07/11/marriage-death-by-a-thousand-paper-cuts/
Not to nitpick, but aren’t you simply diverting comments from this thread to your own by doing this?
“Embrace and extend” is the very spirit of all things on line.
No it isn’t, it’s a badly flawed Microsoft marketing strategy.
Those who can, do…
Swindle: The Allahpundit of PJMedia.
Got something against ambition or what?
Something useful for women to consider when talking to men: we don’t know or give a damn about the names of people you refer to which are irrelevant to the discussion. Cut to the chase. Their hair color, how many kids they have, how they wear a sweater that annoys you and the rest is irrelevant. You’re wasting time.
That kind of extraneous information makes us tend to drift in our focus. You’re saying things we don’t care about and nobody needs to know, so why listen?
I guess I’m saying that if your man doesn’t seem to listen to you, maybe you should just get to the point. Maybe its not his fault his attention wanders.
This is especially true if you’re describing something without bothering to say what it is first. Giving us a description without anything to attach it to just makes us want to scream, “What are you talking about, woman?”
What you said makes you sound lazy and selfish. If you love her, how does it hurt you to just listen to her and make her feel important to you. That is what women want when they talk, just to feel heard, cared about and important to those they love. If you talk to her the way you just talked about her here, you better enjoy it while it last, cause it won’t last long.
You try following a conversation when the person speaking won’t even bother to say what the conversation is about.
I’m sorry that you spend time around women with poor communication skills, but you are aware that not every woman is a moron, right?
The point is that a lot of women talk on and on about completely asinine subjects like television or pop music. I’ll take a little bit here and there just to be nice, but I tune out when it lasts for more than about 3.5 minutes.
Woman do not demonstrate their importance to men by talking incessantly about things (real) men don’t care about. You can show your importance by learning how to cook and staying in shape. If you can do those things, then your man will make you feel wanted.
So true. I’m so used to tuning out my wife… the only way to stay sane… Three days later she’s yelling at me cause I ‘forgot’ to pick up the kids at school, or something, and I have no recollection of that conversation.
Spoken like a typical overly-pampered, self-centered and clueless American (or maybe Canadian) woman.
It’s easier to talk than actively listen. Talking stimulates the pleasure centers of the brain; listening taxes the analysis and interpretation areas. Talking just to hear yourself talk is a selfish act which places a burden on your listener.
I’m female and I also am turned off by people (men and women) who talk aimlessly. It’s obvious that they aren’t interested in communicating meaningfully as much as they take pleasure in talking. It’s narcissistic behavior.
We all need to talk things out from time to time as well as vent. I’m fortunate to have a husband who allows me to vent and occasionally blather. I try to limit the venting and blathering, don’t expect him to listen too closely when I do, and always remember to thank him afterwards for listening. Then I make sure to shut up for the rest of the day to give him a break.
You sound wonderful. Do you have a sister with these very same great communication qualties and this tremendous understanding of reticence? Saying “thank you” for listening is wonderful. So…do you have a twin sister? About, say, 26 – 33 and single? If so, let’s make date #1 happen.
Just remember Charlie Sheen’s advice:
Just say: ” I understand” over and over. That does the trick every time! You can be thinking about the Green Bay Packers and it won’t matter.
Now, repeat after me……..”I understand” I understand” By jove, I think you’ve got it!!
So, you want us to pretend listen to inanities and drivel to make you feel important?
Hmmm. Why not try learning to speak well about things that matter?
Nah, that’d be too difficult. We’ll just pretend to listen, and you’ll pretend to be important. That works.
Hmmm. Did someone say something about being “lazy and selfish”?
“That is what women want when they talk, just to feel heard, cared about and important to those they love.” Are you talking about a woman or a child? I treated my children like that. It would be nice if after living 40 or 50 something years, women could handle a bit more reality. e.g. Speak about things that interest other people, and they will listen. Go on and on about irrelevant nonsense, and nobody owes you a listen. According to you, women are too weak to handle that. I try not to look at them that way.
Wow, my husband does this, but with the TV.
Also, recently he acts like I’m reading his mind when he changes subjects or says something out of the blue and I’m supposed to know who he’s asking about.
Guess some guys do it too.
Amen, brother. I call it the man version…just give me the man version! That’s all I ask…please…..
we men have especially low standards if you’re decent looking. If you’re attractive and can’t hold onto a guy it’s because either your standards are too high* (and you’re dating above your number**) or because you’re a b*tch.
*A lot of single woman want a man with good looks and money without realizing that they are competing with nearly every other woman for the same small group of men. The more money the guy has, the larger the pool they have to work with because younger (and more attractive woman) will go for an older guy who has money. If you’re not in the top 1% of hotness, you need to lower your standards if you’re in your 30s or above because you’re not JUST competing with other women you’re own age, but pretty much every woman 18 and over.
**Your “number” is the number form 1-10 denoting your attractiveness. If you’re a 5, then you’re average, 10 you’re a bombshell, or 1 you turn men gay on sight. Men won’t date a woman below their number (for a long time) because they know they can do better.
You are right on about the numbers, although there are exceptions made for personalities and charm.
I’m maybe a 5 or 6, happily married to a 10. Go figure!
You’re her long-term improvement project …
Cheers
Are you rich, or blind? There’s no third option….
The chance that a 5 is married to a 10 is essentially nil. If you’re a 5 (for a guy, this is appearance + power/money/prestige), I would bet big money that if you asked a panel of random 25 year old guys who don’t know her, they’d rate her at no more than 7, probably a 6.
Nah, it’s not an exception, it’s part of the total number. When it comes to considering a potential wife, three things matter to most men: looks, loyalty, and… well, personality is one way to say it. Charm or grace others. Basically, when they get married, most men really do expect it to be for life, and if you’re going to spend the rest of your life with someone, she better not be unpleasant to be around.
A woman with fantastic looks can get away with more flaws in her personality than Plain Jane, but it all adds up in the end. High-maintenance stunners often end up with relatively callous men who ignore most of what they say, which is probably what those women deserve.
Loyalty is another thing men want in a wife. I’m not sure most women really understand the world men live in, and the immense value that a loyal friend has in it. The constant sniping and criticism, picking fights at home, and especially putting him down in public, all that undermines his confidence in her loyalty as well as demonstrating an unpleasant personality. It gives him the nagging feeling that the person closest to him, most able to hurt him, would sell him out if he hit a rough patch or some smooth talker convincered he she had a better offer.
Marriage is a partnership, not a contest.
this deserves a thousand rec’s.
You win the internets today! That is exactly right. You’ve identified the biggest problem. Men want to come home and take the armor off, not keep it on because they are anticipating a fight with the one person they chose to be vulnerable to.
We were supposed to treat you chivalrously, and you were supposed to smile and listen. That was the social contract. Instead feminism came along and said, you are supposed to act chivalrously, and we get to mock you endlessly. I said years ago that men are going to eventually get tired of it, and I think that day is coming quickly.
‘Good’ looks can be bought cheaply and trivially (there is an entire industry devoted to this) — but a great personality can’t.
So, you’ll easily raise your standards by ‘lowering’ them and thus avoid the empty heads and narcissists.
While I very much disagree with some details (I don’t think the things done w/ money make a woman more appealing, even if there is a superficial difference in appearance), I quite agree that guys are better off focusing more on the qualities that matter over time.
Cheerfully admit I’m a human guy, and appearance does indeed matter.
(and I’m guessing this works in the same way for women as well).
and the ugly and awkward truth is that most people make transactional decisions about whether a potential date, or mate, is sufficiently attractive.
BUT
it is a huge waste of time to break down and rate a woman only by physical appearance (to the n’th degree) when over time what matters more is whether she’s ‘nice’ . . . pleasant and agreeable.
Very Best Regards,
I’d relish a chance to play Trivial Pursuit with you. The first time I played, I won on my third turn.
LoLROF
The elephant in the room is that people – male or female – who are constantly snarky crankypusses who “autocorrect” are generally like that because they’re deeply insecure.
People who are confident in themselves and their place in the world generally realize that there’s a difference between “being right” and “ensuring that everyone within earshot knows it”.
^This, is such a huge life lesson!
Absolutely correct! The most extraordinarily accomplished, intelligent and confident women I know also tend to be among the most unassuming. The most snippy, abrasive & confrontational tend to be the opposite.
Why is graciousness, beauty of spirit, and gracefulness in mind and body considered old-fashioned traits by the jezebels? Men respect women who are worthy of respect. If one doesn’t, he is letting you know that he is not worth your time.
Excellent comment. Personally, I like talking to beautiful women. I like making them laugh. I love when they show their deepest feelings. It helps me understand somewhat, the wonder of women.
Bravo to both.
I’ve often told the Cute Girl (my bride of coming up on 32 years) that her laughter sounds like music – which is why I will cheerfully make a complete and utter fool out of myself in order to hear it.
And her smile – well, it’s been nearly 36 years since we first met, and it still turns me into a puddle of grinning goo when she hits me with it.
How does one spot such a woman? Chapter 6 of this book:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Millionaire-Mind-Thomas-Stanley/dp/0740718584/ref=sr_1_1?
Not many of the Jezebels would make the cut. Nor would they be happy, I would wager, with what they read. Which is – just maybe – why they’ve been unable to convince a man to put up with them, irrespective of their financial success.
Wonderful!!!
Every young woman should read this every morning in their tenn years.
Thank you.
With Great Respect,
I’ve watched quite a few of those 40′s/50′s advice to teenagers newsreels because I sometimes watch something called “RetroTV.” They stick these in as fillers.
Know what? They’re actually quite good once you get over the chuckle factor. Also, they didn’t demean young women at all. They had nothing to do with “showing a woman her place,” but rather, dealt with how to become a confident, effective adult woman. It was even assumed in these newsreels that women would go on to college. Imagine that!
In agreement with much of what’s been written both in the article and in the comments. I have the respect of every man I have ever been with because I am smart, faithful, gracious and don’t talk too much. I am single because I left relationships with smart men who needed to be right rather than kind.
All men, everywhere, always, need to do right; rather than anything else.
There is no “kind” way to do wrong. And there is no right way to do wrong.
Your problem is your lack of morals. Relativism is unattractive to moral, intelligent men because it is a false methodology which leads to catastrophe.
I’m baffled that this piece equates women who blither about Housewives shows and the fridge in the break room with women who think of themselves as too smart/funny/accomplished to catch a man. I suppose that there might be a good deal of crossover, but the two are usually distinct groups. Ms. R. the would-be wit who is forever sniping at men over their too-short trousers or too-thick heads is surely not the same kind of person as Miss B. the pretty bore, who babbles on about inane TV shows.
Good grief, the Daily Mail article ends with a story about her smiling when prince charming tells her how to divide sixty by two, though they do manage to live happily ever after because she holds her tongue.
It’s like scanning resumes for a job opening. 98% of them are from people you don’t want to spend time with. Bemoaning why incompatible people don’t like you is best left in highschool.
Any overbearing woman can find a guy, even a series of them. Most do. This is not a good thing.
From one INTJ to another – brilliant comment. Being right makes me happy too.
In grad school (physics) house rules for Trivial Pursuit was green = automatic pie, roll again but pink = lose your turn. At least that’s how it usually worked out.
Kathy, nice to meet another INTJ.
As I’ve gotten older my tolerance for silliness (from either sex) has increased. While many people’s incoherence and dopey decisions still baffle me I’m much better at finding the humor in their actions.
If we don’t destroy ourselves I expect my amusement to continue.
Non calor sed umor est qui nobis incommodat!
One item that has always rubbed me raw:
Ladies, if you unload your problems on a man.. please.. please… please don’t get pissed off at him if he attempts to find a solution. A typical man behavior is to solve problems and in turn making them go away.
If you simply want to talk about a problem without actually working to find a solution (in particular, if the solution involves modifying your behavior); call one of your girlfriends instead. Leave us guys alone.
I have to say in reply to this comment, and I am not implying that you do this, but if you ask a woman how her day went and she proceeds to tell you, don’t then tell her how to solve something or run down the litany of things she did wrong. You asked her how her day went. If she tells you and did not at anytime ask for advice, she does not necessarily want it. She is only doing what you asked, which is to tell you how her day went. Most of the time we just need encouragement, not advice.
Yes, I have learned how this works. I am only her wailing wall until she really gets curious about what I think. I no longer allow myself to feel useless in this situation. Sometimes “being there” is the whole game. If I can keep my mouth shut and my eyes open long enough… I will get fed and released.
Oh my! What a wonderful post! And…so true! You have me still laughing.
“fed and released” (best line of this whole page)
Respectfully disagree. Most of the time y’all need advice and want encouragement- to persevere unsuccessfully, utilizing the same failing methodolgies, wrong priorities, skewed values.
Some of us don’t care to waste our time with nitwits, misperceivers or subjective existentialists.
Many ladies are airheads. The man is concerned with global politico-economics, and she is focused on the condition of the cat’s litter box.
She asks, “Why did the French Revolution take place?”, and, interrupts his response to call his attention to “that cute(whatever) over there.” She agrees that punctuality is a great virtue and is never on time. Their family income is in the top 20% but she secretly feels that her husband is stupid and a failure. She married a tall, slim blond but subconsciously always been especially attracted to short, muscular men with black hair. Now she exhibits that attraction with attention getting flirtations.She spends an entire morning meditationg on what color to paint her fingernails. She goes to the polls and votes for “the cutest guy”. Single, last year she earned 30K and spent 70. Now what? She opposes capital punishment and supports abortion on demand. Those are some of the kinds of craziness that motivate some of us to remain unattached.
What attracts? Depends on the individual guy. I wanted a woman who shared my religion with a fervor equivalent to mine; emotionally stable and mature, giant IQ, short, slim, oriental- thats it. Couldn’t find one.
A bit of a straw man here. It seemed pretty clear from his use of the phrase “unload your problems on a man” that he was not speaking about a solicited response.
Women, know your limits!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMb8Csll9Ws
Some relevant advice in the video, I believe.
even if you are kidding, this is over the top.
A lot of men don’t talk enough, which in turn ends up causing a silence that women interpret as awkward and unsettling, leading to even more talking on their part.
Some men talk way more than they realize, but once they’re done, they have no interest in listening to anyone else.
In our society men have traditionally been taught to not talk much.
Age old question: “Why can’t a woman be more like a man?”
A. Because they’re incapable of being even half of “the strong, silent type.”
>>Advice like: Don’t act like a slut (in public).
But in private, I love it.
The public versus private thing applies to a lot more than just how “slutty” you can act. My wife and I agree that the primal destructive error many folks make is to talk their mate down to others. If you really need to point out my flaws, do not do it in front of other people. Also, do not go to your mom and tell her the terrible job I did cleaning the steps or about struggles with weight or libido or whatever private matters there might be.
Of course, you have the right to try to guide me to correcting errors and help me do things better; that’s what we do for each other. Just be aware that most men, if they feel like they will be criticized for doing something such as washing dishes or vacuuming and criticized if thy don’t do it it, will choose the path of just not doing it.
Men want respect, women want attention. Like any stereotype, it has lots of exceptions, but it’s not a bad rule of thimb.
You can correct someone in a way that is not disrepspectful. And continually correcting either spouse (in behavior, more than general knowledge!) is Not a Good Thing. Give yourself a quota.
‘ “Snippy?” I asked, not entirely sure what he meant.”‘
…Nearly lost it there. Jezebels and Bridge-thing, please see: ‘critical, nitpicky crankypuss’
LOL! This is brilliant, beyond easy praise. Key, as Kathy Shaidle surely knows, is ‘don’t talk too much’. Also the fact that many hardened-but-happily-married male combat veterans are still occasionally wistful about that elusive model-line from beyond the end of the rainbow, the one that comes with a retractable snack-tray and built-in beverage holder.
I know why Sarah Bridge isn’t attached. Along with her intellectual arrogance and immense self-regard, she’s plug ugly and thinks a red dress, which does her lumpy shape no favors, is an indication of just how unperceptive she is. What man would want to go the long haul with her? A blind and deaf one.
GIRL TALK (Music by Neal Hefti/Lyrics by Bobby Troup)
They like to chat about the dresses they will wear tonight,
they chew the fat about their tresses and the neighbor’s fight.
Inconsequential things that men don’t really care to know
become essential things that women find so “appropo”.
But that’s a dame, they’re all the same.
It’s just a game, they call girl talk, girl talk.
They all meow about the ups and downs of all their friends,
the “who”, the “how”, the “why”, they dish the dirt, it never ends.
The weaker sex, the speaker sex we mortal males behold
but tho’ we joke we wouldn’t trade you for a ton of gold.
So baby, stay and gab a way
but hear me say that after girl talk talk to me.
When you consider that the left’s (stated) mission is to destroy the family, and when you understand that they own all the rags you get your relationship advice from, you will then understand why you don’t have a husband after following their advice.
They tell you to do things that turn men off and make them hate you,in turn making you frustrated and resentful towards men,on purpose because they WANT a war between the sexes.
Here are a few things women need to know. Nobody cares about your “confidence”. Women don’t even know what confidence is, they never have to exhibit any because there is always someone around to pick up the pieces for them. What you think is “confidence” looks more like narcissism and being a b**ch to us. You blame that on men’s “fragile egos”. Our egos don’t have anything to do with it, YOU AREN’T DOING IT RIGHT.
I don’t care if you’re “smart”. That’s great if you are, but it does nothing for me. I’M expected to be smart in order to not wind up dead prematurely and to attract a woman in the first place. What do YOU need to be smart for? You don’t have to do anything but mop,sweep,wash dishes and clothes and have sex. If you WANT to do more than that,great, but I don’t particularly care if you do one way or the other.
You can’t be the boss. You know why you can’t be the boss? It’s not because you’re a woman, it’s because you refuse to take responsibility if things go wrong and you won’t support a subordinate “for better or worse”.No woman goes into a marriage expecting to take care of her husband emotionally,financially, and sexually for his entire life,every man who gets married does,that’s why they’re so nervous and “won’t commit”. In fact,women consider it insulting to be expected to carry all the weight themselves. Let ME be the boss. I know what I’m doing.
Finally, when you talk about being strong,independent, or whatever, you think you’re making a case for being the head of the household. We know it means you’re going to make our lives a living hell with your irritating combative personality. It’s not the 50′s anymore. We all know you have all the power in the relationship. If you want to get married, you’ll stop bragging about being “strong,independent,and sassy”,or whatever,because you go through your entire life with a social safety net in the form of Affirmative Action and gender quotas,not to mention the help you already got from men,so everything you’re saying is a crock of crap,and it’s a dead giveaway to us that living with you will be less pleasant than having glass fibers embedded under our eyelids.
That was disgusting. I don’t know how old you are, but if a man from my generation (I’m in my forties) will say that sort of things to the women he dates he’ll be left hanging in the air. Only a clinical masochist will accept a subordinate status to a boss at home.
“You don’t have to do anything but mop,sweep,wash dishes and clothes and have sex.”
You think? Why would I want a man at all if a relationship turns me into nothing but his personal cleaner and whore? Do you even understand how disgusting this sounds to a woman? Men who think like you are totally, utterly, repulsive. How does a man who wants to enslave you be the least bit attractive?
“I don’t care if you’re “smart”. That’s great if you are, but it does nothing for me.”
That’s you. Smart men around my age, at least everyone I ever knew, want smart, independent, women much like smart women want smart independent men and not lazy boring idiots who don’t have their own minds and that you always have to take care of like little children. And no, smart doesn’t necessarily mean snippy, and idependent doesn’t necessarily mean militant. Naturally people – men or women – don’t like to be around people who make them feel unpleasant. Most men wouldn’t like to be with a snippy or over critical woman any more than I would like to be with a snippy man, nevermind one who bosses me around and sees me as his servant. Naturally we want to be liked and appreciated by our mates and feel they are on our side. While men and women may be different, we’re still human and are still alike in great many things, so it’s pretty safe to ask oneself: “How would I feel if he/she spoke to me the way I just spoke to her/him?”. So if you’re very critical you should ask yourself: ‘How would I feel if someone treated me like that?’ – it’ll work the same way for men and women. And you should ask yourself: ‘How would I feel if someone told me: “I’m the boss and your job is to clean, wash and mop and have sex when I say so”?’. Frankly, I’d be very surprised if you ever had the guts to say that to your wife, if you have one. I doubt even a woman who married in the 50s would tolerate such a humilliating attitude. I know my mother never would, and rightly so. It’s really your kind of attitude that bred the militant feminists to begin with.
“You can’t be the boss. … because you refuse to take responsibility blah blah… Let ME be the boss.”
There doesn’t have to be a boss in the household. It’s a partnership, not an employer-employee relationship. Ideally the couple makes decision together after talking and consultation. In real life they often don’t get to an agreement, so one of the parties has to give in, but it doesn’t have to be the same party every time. When one enters a relationship one needs to know that he/she will have to make compromises because each party has a will of his/her own. You can’t be The Boss and you don’t have to be the Subordinate Servant – that’s BDSM, not marriage. If you want to always be the boss, don’t get into relationships. When you’re alone you’re always the boss in the household.
Thank you for demonstrating Rick’s point
Thank you also for going ‘her-sterical’ on him rather than addressing his points of discussion
I’m surprised that I still have to argue about such matters nowdays. I don’t know, maybe you are all octogenarians with your minds planted firmly in the Jurassic era. My father, who would be 92 if he were still alive today, might have had (conveniently) such an opinion about who should be the boss at home when it came to himself and my mother, but even he didn’t “bestow” that “wisdom” and “love” on his daughters. He made sure my older sister got a degree (in economics – and there wasn’t affirmative action, so don’t even try that BS) and never wished for her to play a subordinate role or saw her basic duties as scrubbing the floors and washing the dishes. And he surely didn’t expect anything like that from me, growing up in a different era. How can you say you love someone and punish them like that? This is not Saudi Arabia, you know. If you’re under 50, or worse yet, under 40, we’re really in big big trouble. So I really hope your age explains it.
What where Rick’s points you say I’ve demonstrated?
- “I don’t care if you’re “smart”. That’s great if you are, but it does nothing for me. I’M expected to be smart in order to not wind up dead prematurely and to attract a woman in the first place. What do YOU need to be smart for? You don’t have to do anything but mop,sweep,wash dishes and clothes and have sex. If you WANT to do more than that,great, but I don’t particularly care if you do one way or the other.”
WOW! In other words, his assumption is that a woman’s basic duties is to mop, sweep, wash and have sex. If she does anything more it’s in addition to her basic duties. To perform her basic duties she doesn’t have to be smart. Therefor being smart is completely redundant for a woman.
Nowadays, at least where I live, men and women share the household chores, such as cleaning and cooking. I’ve never met a man my age who expected the woman to take all of those responsibilities upon herself while he goes out to “hunt”. This is an entirely anachronistic worldview. Rick, as well as you and Paul of Alexandria who support him, must have been living in a cave in Tora Bora for the last 50 years. I mean, try telling that to Margaret Tatcher, Angela Merkel or Golda Meir. Try telling that to Sherry Arison, owner of the Arison corporation, the dominant partner in one of the largest banks in Israel and one of the richest people in the world. Try telling that to Galia Maor, one of the most powerful people in the Israeli banking system and until recently the general manager of the other largest bank in Israel. Try telling that to Tmira Yardeni, owner and manager of the most succesful TV production company in Israel. Try telling them the following:
“You can’t be the boss. You know why you can’t be the boss? It’s not because you’re a woman, it’s because you refuse to take responsibility if things go wrong and you won’t support a subordinate “for better or worse”. … Let ME be the boss. I know what I’m doing.”
They will laugh in your face. Do you even realize how stupid and delusional that sounds?
I thought the US was an advanced Western country living in the 21st century. Was I wrong? Take my ex – his parents came from Yemen to Israel in the 50s. You’d expect, coming from a country like that, they would have some difficulties adapting to the idea of woman’s equality, certainly more so than people born in the US like I assume you were. But no, they didn’t expect their daughter to dedicate her life to washing, sweeping and having sex. They invested in her education as much as they invested in their sons’ and she became the head of the accounting department of a large Israeli company. She’s attractive, married with children, earns more than her husband and has suitors her husband needs to fight off.
- “Nobody cares about your “confidence”. Women don’t even know what confidence is, they never have to exhibit any because there is always someone around to pick up the pieces for them.”
What absolute rubbish. Take my sister, for example. When her father in law’s company fell apart she and her husband put it back together. She took care of all the financial side to save it from bankruptcy. She took care of my brother whenever he had troubles, which was often. When he passed away she took in his children. When her mother (we’re half sisters) was dying of cancer she took her in. When our father became too ill to take care of himself she took him in too. All while running the family company together with her husband (who, BTW, adores her). If she’d fall apart who would be there to pick up the pieces – hers and everyone else’s? She’s definitely the strongest, most stable and responsible member of the family and she’s certainly highly intelligent and very competent in diverse areas. Oh, and she’s pretty and very pleasant too (OK, maybe not as pretty as before now that she’s approaching her 60s, but in her twenties she was gorgeous and her intelligence surely didn’t turn off her suitors. She married at 21 and remained married to the same man).
I don’t know what kind of a world you live in. It sure seems very far away from mine. Maybe just across the border from Israel, somewhere like Egypt or Gaza. Is that where you live? Or maybe back in the American 50s. I’ve heard the rumor men like you existed, but I’ve never met one personally, so I thought you had already become extinct. My father, born in 1920, comes closest, but even he wasn’t such a putz. I surely never dated anyone like you nor had any male friend like you. Most of the men I’ve hanged around with since high school were highly intelligent – hitech people, chess players, scientists – and they all dated and married intelligent women, so maybe it’s a question of IQ. Maybe dumb men don’t like smart women. Though I have to say the least intelligent men I knew simply found them boring rather than rave like lunatics for the mere idea of intelligence and confidence in a woman. You’re really strange. I’ve also never heard there’s a necessary connection between being smart and being nasty. You, for instance, demonstrate the opposite. Of course, with your attitude you probably earn yourselves a lot of nasty responses from women, but it’s not because those women aren’t generally nice, but because you deserve it. I’m not a militant feminist, but that’s probably because I’ve never had to deal with men like you. You make me understand where the militant feminists and man haters come from.
“WOW! In other words, his assumption is that a woman’s basic duties is to mop, sweep, wash and have sex.”
No, he is not assuming anything. This is what he requires of a woman. Plus cooking and bringing him a beer now and then. Anything else is fine, but not a requirement. In exchange for this, he will work to provide food, shelter, garments and all the other necessities and luxuries of life, keeping little for himself. He will also die protecting you and the children, if necessary. If you do not offer these requirements, then he is not interested in paying such a steep price as marriage. It’s his money and life, after all. He really is not asking too great a product, really. He could ask for more, but he understands the difference between desired and needed.
Let’s turn it around. What exactly do you require from a man, as a minimum? I will bet big money that your requirements are extensive. Very extensive. You see everything you want as mandatory. I bet almost none of it is optional.
You proceeded to offer some examples of extraordinary women, but fail to understand that these are… extra-ordinary. Beyond ordinary. They are exceptions to the rule. Most women are exactly as he describes. They want to be equal (IOW,in charge), until stuff goes really wrong, then he is supposed to fix the mess they made. They do not want his solutions until they want them. They just want him to listen to them… and agree, of course.
Your response was knee-jerk and unreasoning in its style. It was filled with vitriol. It was judgmental. He is not supposed to think like that! He is supposed to think like a modern woman! It had a whole bunch of name-calling, too. Sneer and snarl. There was no calm demeanor, no grace, nothing ladylike at all. You even admitted it at the end.
“I’m not a militant feminist, but that’s probably because I’ve never had to deal with men like you. You make me understand where the militant feminists and man haters come from.”
Yep, your inner militant feminist came to the fore… the ugly, western-civilization woman. You were speaking with passion and conviction. This is who you really are. You probably have no idea how you sound to us men. Imagine rolling back the sheets to get into bed and finding feces. Yep, that’s how we men feel about feminism.
You know what made me laugh? You extolled the virtues of your ex. Well, if he was so great, why the heck is he your ex? Gee, I wonder?
I am a wicked smart guy, so I like smart women. I prefer nice to smart in my women, though. Give me lady-like every time.
A woman is supposed to make my life better, as I define the term, not as she defines it. I am a man, and I do not apologize for it. I value a woman who cooks, and cleans, and boinks, and who does not talk too damned much. If you disagree, well, “Frankly, Scarlett, my dear, I don’t give a damn!” Go find some guy who wants what you have to offer. Yeah, good luck with that.
Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury … I rest my case.
Heh. Well done. You responded to an article whose main premise was “women talk too much” with a pair of comments full of angry, corrective lecturing that are longer than the article. You also managed to confuse minimum standards with defined limits. Please consider buying a clowder of cats. They will also have minimum standards they will expect you too meet. They will also not stop you from pursuing other activities.
BooMushroom,
By ‘minimum standards’ do you mean the expectation that the a woman will do all the sweeping, mopping and washing? If so, then this is exactly what I said was Rick’s argument:
1. The basic duties of a woman is to clean and have sex. If she does anything else it’s in addition to these basic duties, but she doesn’t have to do anything else.
2. To perform those basic duties, she doesn’t have to be smart.
3. Therefore being smart is redundant for a woman.
Read what he wrote and tell me if that’s not what he’s saying. Though on second thought I don’t think I’ll be here to read your answer since I don’t have that much time to waste on you all.
To make things perfectly clear, I oppose the idea that these should be the minimum standards for a woman and I consider this idea immoral. An individual woman can choose to be a housewife and I respect that as a personal choice like any other personal choice, but it shouldn’t be the norm for women as a group. Women are individuals just like men. And I don’t intent to argue about that because if we don’t agree there should be basic gender equality in terms of social expectations then there’s nothing more to say.
In my social circle these aren’t the roles or minimum standards assigned exclusively to women. Women are expected to take care of themselves and have a job. Women and men are expected to share the household chores. Smart and confident women are not considered b**itches like Rick feels about it. Men don’t expect to be the boss at home. Men like smart independent women because they want a partner and a companion and not someone that will hang around their necks and bore them with nonsense. Women who expect to be treated as equals are not considered militant feminists – it’s taken for granted where I come from. And if someone expresses angry demeaning male supremacist views a woman isn’t expected to respect that with a nice docile response, and both men and women will support her because they’re not male supremacists. I understand things are very different in this social conservative enclave (as opposed to the type of conservatism that is based on the individual rather than on groups defined by their race or gender), but to me it is a moral fault of yours. Fortunately for both of us, we don’t have to deal with each other on a daily basis or at all. You all are as extremely unpleasant to me as I am to you.
What I find really stunning is that there’s no other woman here, nevermind man, that find Rick’s statements repulsive enough to comment. To me it’s really like landing in one of our neighboring countries in the Middle East. Of course men there will consider me a bad woman much like I consider them bad men. There’s an abyss between what I take for granted and what you take for granted, between what I take to be normal and what you take to be normal, between what I consider morally right and what you consider morally right. This abyss cannot be bridged, so let’s just leave it at that.
Dear Pnina, I skipped everything but the touching account of your sister – Beers
Way to go Rick!!! You nailed it, man! Thanx to Pnina for proving you right!!
Pnina:
Actually there does need to be an unequal amount of power in any long term personal partnership. It can be 50.1% to 49.9% but in the end you will face situations where a decision MUST be made and you and your partner find yourselves unable to agree. The corollary is that the person who decides is responsible for the consequences of that decision.
There is very little in my relationship that I see as fundamental. It touches on perhaps 5% of the decisions that get made, however in that small space I make those decisions. Ideally my partner agrees with my choice, however if she does not she either accepts my decision or she moves on. In the rest of the relationship she gets whatever she wants, and even when I can see that disaster is coming, I wait and one of us cleans up the mess. That 5% covers what I need from our relationship. Needs, unlike wants or desires, are not negotiable. She has her needs too, and she gets them, were I to find her choice unacceptable I to have the option to move on. Part of why we chose each other is that we have compatible needs.
BTW: She is very smart, earns a middle 6 figure salary in a very difficult field, is independent, funny, loving, and a genuinely good person who thinks that 90% of feminism is BS. We don’t compete, and, while we occasionally make a joke at the other’s expense, we don’t snipe at each other in public or private. We also never allow the other to take us for granted.
Very well said, and Pnina misses the point entirely.
That’s for sure! But I have a feeling he was half-hoping for such a preditable response just to enjoying the resulting hysteria.
Sorry – “enjoy”.
“Surprisingly large numbers of smart women are actually married. So, this is about not being “too clever” but rather about not being such a critical, nitpicky crankypuss toward men that you become a complete turn off.”
Truly smart women, like all truly smart people, are confident in their intelligence and don’t need to constantly show it. In fact they relish those opportunities to be ‘normal’.
http://www.livescience.com/7330-word-men-talk-women.html
For those who do not like to click on links, the above was a scientific study done in 2007 that showed both men and women talk an average of 16k words per day (there was a minor difference, below the level of statistical significance), and the most talkative outliers were men.
P.S. I have seen and experienced both men and women being critical in their intimate relationships. Regardless of gender, it is a trust-killer.
Men in general choose women based on what they are.
Women in general choose men whom they believe they can make into what they want.
The women who fail are invariably disappointed in their lives.
The women who succeed get traded in for a newer model.
In my dating years I had two rules:
Always date interesting women, and looks were a very minor part of my definition of interesting.
Never get serious with a girl who had not been screwed over in a prior relationship. That always gave them perspective and the ability to appreciate the good treatment I bestowed on them.
Was married for eighteen years until due to external factors my wife suffered a breakdown and became hyper critical of every action on my part. Her philosophy became, “If you really loved me you’d know what I want without me telling you!” And when I guessed wrong it was proof to her that a)I really didn’t love her and b)I was doing it on purpose to give her a hard time. When I finally left her two boys who I had raised through most of their childhood each independently told me the biggest surprise to them was that I had waited so long and tolerated so much abuse before pulling the plug.
Yeah, you know, Maureen Down couldn’t figure out why no men wanted to marry her. Imagine that!
Why is it that when Men are verbally acrimonious, they are controlling, abusive and potentially physically dangerous?
But, when Women verbally emasculate their partner, they are merely “snippy”?
Spot on boat motor commercial. My wife and I have been married for 36 years, since we were 18, so I only have the one partner to compare. We do have a daughter and 4 grand daughters, they are all more verbose than our sons or grandsons. My daughter used to keep us awake talking in her sleep.
John Kerry married (again) for money but look what he has to put up with. Of course his wife is living with a dog but that just gives her insurance against other preditory women. You can bet your a– when she talks – John listens. When he talks she yawns. Trade offs are what makes relationships.
Advice like: be gracious and grateful.
For how long can a member of the selfish sex practice being gracious and grateful? Or should I say fake being gracious and grateful? In a very real sense it is better that women be themselves in the trial or engagement period leading up to marriage. That way the man will either buy the product warts and all or walk away before making life’s biggest commitment. The worst shock of all faces the man who has been hoodwinked by a member of the selfish sex faking graciousness and gratefulness, expecting that that will be his future wife, and then being hit unprepared by the utter selfishness of woman’s nature.
Gosh,ricpic, you just described my x. Was married to him for 43 years and finally had enough of his critizism, belittlement, negativity, controling nature, shelfness, jealosy, and isolaltion. He didn’t like his family or mine, the wife or the husband of our friends. He was angry at life. I stayed for as long as I did because, at one point after 20 years, things did get better and we had two children. I put my energy into rearing them until they left home. Both are successful and the divorce has been hard on them. It took a hell of a lot for me to walk away from my friends, my church, my house, and my community and move closer to family. I chose life. I have five siblings and only one was surprised at my ending the marriage. The one good thing about my marriage to him was the sex. The really sad part is he had so very much to be thankful for.
Nobody likes a smartypants. Intelligent people often assume that their gifts are wanted or needed by the community, whether they really asked for it or not.
Perceptive people realize that intelligence is best used where it is wanted or requested. Sometimes, it is best to leave others to a learning experience.
That’s how a couple has to work. It makes no difference if the person is a man or a woman. The social dynamics are different, but the end result is the same: a man would be seen as domineering and intolerant. A woman would be seen as something of a shrew.
Nevertheless, in a working relationship, both husband and wife learn to deal with each other, to explain wants and needs, and to ask for help.
The chatter is almost irrelevant. It turns out that men and women speak almost equal amounts every day, so the chatty wife thing isn’t what you might first expect. Husbands can talk about experiences that their wives have no context for either. It goes both ways.
What matters is understanding each other. My wife and I don’t need to say much. A look, a giggle, a snort, or a sigh and we usually know what the other is feeling.
The reason Maureen Dowd is still single is because she built a career telling everyone what she thinks, and as such, doesn’t have the bandwidth to listen to what others have to say. She already has a pigeon hole for that. She is a smartypants.
Okay, World War II experts – what was operation SeaLion?
It was the abortive German invasion of the British Isles. What does that have to do with women who talk so much they annoy their annoy their boyfriends and husbands?
Mebbe the husbands of the Wehrmacht thought an overseas adventure would be a good thing, nicht wahr?
Although a lot a married guys had much to do with the overseas expansion of the English empire, just sayin…
Whoever is gabbing about minutae, being self-involved and know-it-all is boring and annoying others. Doesn’t matter which sex is doing it.
Now, there you go with common sense. I don’t know what kind of hooey you’re trying to pass off, but according to many of the commenters here, every single woman in the history of ever is a mouthy, selfish, calculating bitch trying to destroy men if it occurs to her (a stretch, what with that tiny little brain of hers) to do or say anything outside of cooking, cleaning, laying on her back, and massaging her husband’s ego.
exempli gratia
I once told a dear female friend that was having difficulty dating, that if would be most helpful, and this was years ago. that if she enjoyed the date, call the person when he is at work and leave a message saying thank you for the evening, and would look forward to seeing you again.
Made it crystal clear, the guy that took her out gets thanked for being a nice guy and told that he is appreciated and amazing, after doing this her dating life changed for the better.
I now find that if I take a woman out, they expect to treated, run up a tab, and never have the courtesy to say thank you.
But a guy also judges a woman, because if a woman asks to pay her share on a date, the gentleman will say no, but he realizes that the woman is not looking for a meal or a movie, but to share.
Marc Malone lined it out! For pnona may I just suggest: read Eph.5.22-25 and see what God has to say on the subject.
Penguins can fly – just not in air. They do fine under water.
How guys screw it up by talking TOO LITTLE. Just Sayin’…s
GBS – A couple is getting married. The groom looks at his bride and hopes that she remains as beautiful as she is at that moment. The bride looks at the groom and hope(knows?)that she can change him. On their 25th anniversary the look at each other and are both disappointed.
The idea seems to be, “Why can’t a man be more like a woman?”
Women have been taught for forty years that they should feel bad if they don’t know as much as men, or their man. This leads them to feel and act competitive. Competitiveness if very degrading to the male-female realationship, which should instead be symbiotic, complementary.
One legacy of the psedo-feminist, “must compete with men” mentality.
Women go wrong in caring too much what men think.
A sort of mechanical source of snippy behavior in either sex comes from being a bright person.
In school they are usually “the smartest” in the room. Used to that, they may think it is being the king of the roonm and they get used to it. Older and beyond school, continuing their royal path requires the use of spin, footwork with word meanings, shaving the facts to fit, and adding emotional content and surprise sniping. People who do not accept the royal reign are insurrectionists to be put down, which is the snippy-hobby they are used to, after being the gladiator in the clash of ideas.
The snippy should be told to quit being the gladiator in the arena as the emperor’s job in the audience is always open. The emperor loses nothing and advances power by abandoning one’s own idea for someone else’s which is better.
It all comes down to respect, men need women to respect them. Being disrespected on a regular basis (snide cruel remarks no matter how seemingly funny) are not the way to keep a man. You could be drop dead gorgeous but if you’re being a total B, a mans tolerance will not last long. We are not looking for June Cleaver in 2012, but we do want a close personal relationship that works as opposed to a nagging shrew who drives us to leave the house for the nearest bar.
If you have a man and you don’t respect him, then don’t marry him. It won’t last…
My lovely wife tells stories about coworkers who are all divorced and bitter. She hears it all, all day long. How their husbands or boyfriends are jerks, etc. Then she tells them what our relationship is like and they all can’t believe it or they predict that we haven’t been married long enough. My wife irons my clothes. I never asked for that, she actually likes doing it. I always bought wrinkle free when I shopped for myself. For her it’s a way to unplug mentally and relax. She’ll talk on the phone while ironing. She always thinks of me first and I also think of her and we do for each other.
In addition to respect, you need good communication. You need to be able to express your feelings without getting in a fight. You need to do it politely and without letting emotion take over.
Nobody ever said marriage was easy! Talk to anyone married for 30+ years and they will tell you there are times when it’s no picnic in the park! It takes work to maintain a relationship. It takes love and compassion for each other and the most important thing is communication and I am not talking about meaningless inane babble! Actual two way communication about wants, desires, needs, and your true feelings.
Maybe it sounds like 1950′s relationship advice but it’s the truth and the truth is a two edged sword that cuts deep. The feminists have pushed for decades and finally are feeling they have made progress but in reality it’s destroying men. Now we have books like “50 Shades of Grey” where the female character is dominated and submissive and apparently, women are loving this book! This must drive the feminists up the wall! To think that women are turned on by an aggressive man who takes charge of a woman. This is in no way an endorsement for the book. I actually think the book is nothing but cheap trash and completely without literary merit. The point is the popularity of the book! Is it possible that women actually secretly desire a strong man to sweep them off their feet and take control?
Hmm, nothing has changed in human nature since Shakespeare’s Taming of the Shrew!
I dropped out of female-centric North American society…you know…the man bad, woman good thing. Re-discovered the masculinity that was my birthright, my dignity, and self-confidence here in SE Asia. Despite what CNN and the BBC say, I am not a misogynist and not a paedaphile, just a man who appreciates living in (or making an annual visit to a culture that respects, repeat, RESPECTS my gender. Airfare is cheaper than alimony.
Mike, sounds like you made the right move. But, do tell. Where in SE Asia have you found your personal Shangra-La? I have my thoughts on this, too.
I really do believe that the power of the internet with its blogs, individual websites, emailing, pictures over the net, etc. are going to do a powerful Smack Down of the liberal feminist movement afoot in the USA and Canada in these last 40-45 years.
Unlike what women here in N. America want to hear/know, there are still women on this planet who are women. A man does not have to settle for today’s version of stale meatloaf, a.k.a. the American/Canadian female. Traditional women (who are smart, witty, pleasant, cheerful, true helpmates) with core traditional family values are indeed out there — but just about non existent on this continent (and they sure aren’t in Europe either).
Note: I’m talking lifetime relationship/marriage here. Not dating/flings. A real man in interested in the former, not the latter.
I’d say to the sincere ladies out there, a real man wants a helpmate. If you are not prepared to be a helpmate out of your genuine, down-deep character, be prepared to 1) go solo like the Maureen Dowds/spinsters who have it all but no man, home, life, children, happiness; or 2) get entangled in one, two, or more short-term marriages that end up in flames.
Best to you, Mike.
The fact is that women generate more spoken language than men, on average. Marriage requires a healthy, compromising partnership, and part of compromise is that we accept and look past those parts of the other person that may not necessarily jive with the personalities of our same-sex friends. A quick look at the comments here illustrates how many men easily become annoyed with the amount of elaboration and detail with which women tend to put into their dialogue. It may get a bit tedious, and you may have to actively listen to what she has to say in order to extract what you consider to be the “important parts”, but as a husband, you should at least put forth some effort into listening to what your wife/significant other has to say. Just as you put up with her excessive elaboration because you love her, she puts up with your messiness, grumpiness, five-o-clock-shadow, and drunken stupors resulting from a guys’ night out because she loves you.
A sort of mechanical source of snippy behavior in either sex comes from being a bright person.
Well, I am bright, but I feel no compulsion to be that way. If you are smart, it will show up eventually, no need to continually drive it home.
Amusingly, this post recently appeared over at InstaPundit:
http://www.redandblack.com/opinion/how-to-find-that-perfect-husband-in-college/article_8b6d38e2-c575-11e1-8ce5-0019bb30f31a.html
(As a graduate of Georgia Tech, my advice to the young UGA coed is to first and foremost fish in a better pond.
But kidding aside, the Pninas of the world would do well to listen to this rising Steel Magnolia:
“Bake for his frat brothers, encourage him to do well on his tests, and impress his momma like it’s the last round of recruitment. On the flip side, make sure you’re not too much. Nothing drives away a golden gent more than a control freak.
Step 6: If you have flawlessly executed steps one through five, that Tiffany’s ring will undoubtedly be sitting pretty on your finger by the time graduation rolls around. Step number six is to simply say yes. Voila, congratulations future Mrs. Dr. Perfect.
This is your chance to live happily every after. Encourage your man to go wherever the money is, and then stay by his side regardless of any circumstance.”
Every gender feminist within a 500-mile radius just got an epic case of the vapors at that sort of talk from a fellow female – but do you ladies realize just how completely you would own a man if you did that? For a woman who would impress his momma and stay by his side in any circumstance, a man would gladly lay down his life.
As the wise old saying goes – American by birth, Southern by the grace of God.
The candor in this article is fantastic and greatly appreciated. Some of the snarky comments made by women here are proof in the pudding that the vast majority of American women are more interested in being RIGHT then HAPPY. It’s not an opinion, it’s simple fact. For the reasons stated in the article, if Im ever asked I always tell young men to stay single and keep their pants on. It only takes 1 mistake to lose your entire life to a woman in America….literally, your life in some cases…..and they get away with it.
Apparently the moderator is a New Castrati or a feminazi because any negative thing I said about women gets shot down. The 1st Amendment is dead.
The 1st Amendment protects you from the government, not from the moderator of a privately-owned website. If you can exercise your right to make your opinions known to the world, than the moderator, myself, and everyone else here has the right to express our opinions about you. In the moderator’s case, it’s cutting off some or all of your post; in my case, it’s informing you that I perceive you as a fairly substantial idiot, guilty of several of the flaws described in this article.
Good call Mr New Castrati.
I want two things from a woman-I want her to be smart, and I want her to be universally honest; with herself, with me, with my parents, etc., etc., etc.
Attractiveness is a plus, but unless she’s ravingly ugly, I’d gladly accept a 4 or 5. Strength (physical and mental) is an overwhelming plus; I’d take a 3 if she was smart, honest and strong.
In short, my ideal woman is someone who can handle the long haul, someone that I can fight and who will fight me right back, then we both admit what we each did right and wrong, then retire to the bedroom for some sweet, honest lovin’.
I bet I can beat Kathy at Trivial Pursuit, Vintage Years edition. Bring it on!
Don’t disagree – but men fake romance to get sex. Women should put themselves first and if they want to talk about topics they choose – not sports – go ahead. The big mistake women make is putting men at the center of their universes. Bad, bad decision.
TLDR
Pnina, God says, at Eph.5.22, that wivws are to be submissive to their husbands, even as they are to the Lord. Your perspective is clearly contradictory to God’s. That fact should motivate you to reconsider your position. One suspects, however, that it will not. You are determined to dominate and you are required to submit. So, for you, a godly marriage is not possible. Yours must be an ungodly marriage. Lots of luck with that one!
Transcending all other issues, the battle for dominance destroys more marriages than all other causes put together. The woman who determines, consciously or subconsciously, to dominate her husband is in for a very bad time. Because she is defying God’s revealed will. That is sin. And damnation is the end thereof. She may cackle in glee in her femdom; but, one second after her soul leaves her body, her eternal torment will begin. Want to trade fifty years of feminazi-ism for unending punishment? Hopefully not.