Did a Saudi Ex Machina Save Egypt?
UPDATE: At National Review, Daniel Pipes reads the military takeover as a “palace coup” by military leaders who unloaded the unwanted Mubarak dynasty and used the Tahrir Square protesters as well as the Islamists to consolidate their own power. Daniel’s take is not inconsistent with the reading below. I hope he’s right, and that the chances for an Islamist takeover are narrower than I feared. But I am still concerned about the possible disintegration of the Egyptian economy and the growth of Muslim Brotherhood power on the street.
Saudi Arabia just may have pulled America’s chestnuts out of the fire.
Just before Egypt’s military restored its power earlier this month, Saudi Arabia gave the beleaguered country just enough aid to keep the economy afloat for the time being. On June 2, the Saudis put $1 billion into Egypt’s foreign exchange reserves and bought $500 million in Egyptian government bonds on June 4. And on June 8, the Saudis announced that Egypt could use a $750 million credit line to import fuel ”based on the severe oil-products shortage faced by Egypt,” according to an emailed statement from the Saudi Embassy in Cairo.
These gifts are droplets compared to Egypt’s $20 billion hemorrhage of foreign exchange reserves since the fall of Hosni Mubarak in early 2011, but of critical importance. As the Saudi statement noted, a severe shortage of diesel oil threatened, in turn, to reduce food supplies, and spot shortages of bread were reported in May. The Muslim Brotherhood took advantage of critical shortages to expand its power on the Egyptian street, as I reported in the Asia Times on May 1st (“The horror and the pita”). Saudi aid gives critical leverage and credibility to the military. On June 16, Egypt’s military ordered the dissolution of parliament after the country’s Supreme Constitutional Court declared invalid the election that returned a three-quarters majority of Islamists.
The Saudi press meanwhile supported the military’s candidate in last weekend’s presidential elections. “In a series of editorials published over the past few weeks, a clear bias can be discerned for Ahmed Shafiq, a secular independent and former Mubarak-era prime minister. Mohammed Morsi, the Muslim Brotherhood candidate, is presented by Saudi opinion makers as a menace to Egypt’s civil character and political stability,” Elhanan Miller reported on June 17 in the Times of Israel.
The Muslim Brotherhood competes with the Saudi royal family, offering a Leninist vanguard party model of Islamist leadership in opposition to the corrupt Saudi monarchy. Violent demonstrations against Saudi installations in Egypt nearly collapsed Egyptian-Saudi relations in April, as I reported at the time:
Egypt’s national tragedy took a turn towards farce April 27, when Saudi Arabia closed its embassy and several consulates after demonstrations that “threaten the security and safety of Saudi and Egyptian employees, raising hostile slogans and violating the inviolability and sovereignty”, according to a Saudi statement. Saudi Arabia and other Gulf States were supposed to anchor an international aid package that will forestall a disorderly financial crisis.
With a critical fuel shortage cutting into food supplies and essential services, Egyptians already have a foretaste of chaos. The two-for-a-penny pita, the subsidized flat bread that provides much of the caloric intake for the half of Egypt’s population living on less than $2 a day, is at risk.
Fortunately for the West, Egypt’s military appears to have taken matters in hand with Saudi support, forestalling the triumph of militant Islamism in the Arab world’s most populous country, at least for the moment. Call it the triumph of realism. This is as good as it gets in the Arab world. Egyptians have been spared (so far) the misery of their former partners in the United Arab Republic of 1958-1961, which briefly merged the two countries. With Saudi largess, they might be spared starvation for the time being.
There are still democracy activists on Tahrir Square wondering where their revolution went, calling for a million-man march against the military’s “coup.” But the punditeska that hailed the Arab Spring as the best thing since the American founding is thunderously silent. Where is the snow job of yesteryear? The punditeska’s infatuation with the Arab Spring ran across the whole political spectrum, from Tom Friedman at the New York Times to Bill Kristol at the Weekly Standard. When it came to the crunch, the “tech-savvy activists” of Tahrir Square turned out to be “benzine bubbles floating atop the viscous Nile mud,” as I called them in February 2011. Both the Facebook revolution and the Facebook IPO since have gone pear-shaped, and what is left is the mud of Egyptian society: the military against the Muslim Brotherhood.
The collective sigh of relief is audible. The prospect of a Muslim Brotherhood regime controlling Egypt’s parliament as well as the presidency was too horrible to contemplate, especially in light of the unending horror in Syria. Democracy is betrayed by collusion of Egypt’s old regime and one of the world’s nastiest regimes, but the punditeska is too pleased to protest. Not even Tom Friedman wants the Muslim Brothers to get control of the Egyptian state. For the moment, Egyptians have Saudi Arabia to thank for their penny-a-loaf pita ration, and the hand the military had to kiss in order to get it. And that is immeasurably better than the alternative.
KSA King Abdullah on Iran: “cut off the head of the snake http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/11/28/wikileaks-iran-saudis-idUSN2862745120101128”. Interesting times when the King of KSA has a more realistic and effective view of US interests in the Middle East than POTUS.
If the Saudis continue their financial support, it just might give moderate Egyptian democratic forces a fighting chance against the upcoming MB. Will they? Or will they be too busy trying to oust Assad?
Given the rate Egypt’s foreign currency reserves were falling (which Goldman has frequently addressed), one would have expected them to be depleted by now. So how are they still hanging on? Have they become (to use an old Yiddish expression) luftmentschen – people “living on air”? Either they’re getting regular infusions from somewhere or they’re writing a lot of IOUs.
Egypt was down to two months worth of imports in cash reserves and an extreme fuel shortage broke out in May. The Saudis have given them just a bit of air, evidently to give the military leverage against the Muslim Brotherhood. The country really was at the brink of collapse — and collapse would have favored the Brothers.
Shouldnt we be fueling the fire in Egypyt? Lets make a boy or girl out of it. If we r just postponing the inevitable why not rush the process? Let the Brotherhood take over and take the situation from bad to worse. Give the Brotherhood the chance to run things and make them worse. All along the way sow seeds of civil war. That is the BEST situation. Half of Europe cant even get their act together. Its foolish to think Egyptians will. How can we push them to a breaking point.
Also, is it possible that they start growing food now or have already to deal with the future shortages?
Funny you should mention that. In Roman times, grain exported from Egypt produced the bread that went with the circuses. But now Egypt can’t even feed itself. Of course, with the exception of the Nile delta, Egypt is a barren desert. And most of the water in the Nile comes from Ethiopia. The Ethiopians made a deal with the British, to the effect that they would leave the water in the Nile, and let it go down to Egypt. And they have continued to honor the agreement since the Brits got kicked out. But they are starting to wonder if that was such a good idea. They are building a dam.
This is a really bad time to be an Egyptian.
“Give the Brotherhood the chance to run things and make them worse. All along the way sow seeds of civil war. That is the BEST situation”
I thought that about Hamas taking Gaza, let them screw it up and THEN folks will see…
But its no “better” for the world with Hamas increasing the horror of life for the Gazans with their mismanagement. You’d think abject failure would lead to actual defeat, but not over there!
All chaos and suffering is Mohammads delight, and those folls love their mo-man!
The middle east (muslim, arab, whatever…any place where people name their sons Mohammad) is an intractable mess of perpetual strife, poverty, misery and is always a danger for civilized people to be anywhere near.
Best to just avoid it, and/or contain it, like the Chernobyl disaster.
Just recognize that they, like high levels of radiation, are something BAD, you generally need to avoid at all costs.
Dont play with it, just stay away.
You cant fix it, you’ll die trying…you just have to wait till it goes away all by itself.
Which raises the question:
Its been 14 centuries of this madness so far….whats IS the Half-life of the Isotope called “cultural insanity”?
“…Give the Brotherhood the chance to run things and make them worse…”
I shudder to think of the carnage in an Egypt gone the way of Iran or Afghanistan. I’m sure Carter said the same thing when the Shah called for help. And that turned out SO VERY well. The Brotherhood is not in the game to play nice in Parliament; they want control and once had, will be loath to relinquish it. And they’ll need an Enemy to control the plebes, I wonder where they’ll look? To SA, Israel and the US. They are a serious threat to the Saudi royals, who they would love to displace. King Abdullah is not stupid. The west would do well to back him and the Egyptian military in keeping a lid on the radicals, but discreetly. They may not be democratic, but they beat the crap out of the alternative.
http://news.egypt.com/english/permalink/126758.html
“Anwar Eshki, an advisor to Saudi Arabia’s Cabinet of Ministers and head of the Jeddah-based Middle East Centre for Strategic and Legal Studies, accused Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood of lacking the requisite political vision and experience for governing the country.
Eshki, in an interview with Al-Ahram, expressed his fears on the “doubted aspirations” of the Islamist and most politically-based entity which in the minds of many is seeking to extend its control over the country and pave the way for the reproduction of despotism in Egypt.
….
By contrast, the Muslim Brotherhood has always promoted an active political role for Islam, first as a revolutionary organisation and more lately as a force in democratic politics.
Some Saudi leaders have accused the Brotherhood of inspiring the kingdom’s main domestic opposition group, the Sahwa movement that in the 1990s agitated to bring democracy to Saudi Arabia.”
This is not an organization the Saudi royals will support – they are a direct threat to their rule. In fact the SA ambassador declined to endorse the MB candidate for Egyptian Pres.
You don’t want to give the Brothers room to swing a cat (apologies to the PETA inquisitors monitoring this board). They are really dangerous.
Just remember, “animal rights” was your G-d’s idea.
Not this again. By any standards kosher isn’t meant for the animal’s benefit, and why would it be, the laws were just practical and hygienic for the needs of the iron age. Animal rights laws are a very modern phenomenon, and largely a response to alleged cruelties in kosher slaughter. They’re always used to disguise another agenda.
You are correct to some extent, H.G., but … Not this again. The rationale of kosher slaughter isn’t “practical and hygienic,” it’s ritualistic – the eating of meat being made contingent upon making it an offering to G-d, rather than a mere luxury or satisfaction of appetite. You’re right about all the other points, however.
Kosher slaughter couldn’t have been further from my mind. I was referring to an ox’s right to treadeth the corn muzzle-free (Deuteronomy 25:4).
AFAIK, Wal-Mart is having a special on “Sense of Humor”. It is lasting through November 06, 2012. I suggest you hurry, Sense of humor will be in short supply after the 0bamacare ruling. It might not be a bad idea to wander back to sporting goods and see if your Wal-Mart still sells ammo.
If they don’t, go to Lawn and Garden and buy some rope. Then all you need to do is hook up with a buddy that has ammo, find a tree and you can open your own PAC. I’ve got dibs on “Swaying Gently in the Wind PAC, so you will need to find your own catchy name.
The Muslim Brotherhood are far more dangerous than Al Qaeda were, are, or ever could be.
So, Spengler–are you no longer predicting starvation in Egypt? Damn, I went out on a limb based on your (seemingly reasoned) prediction. How long do you thin the Saudi money will last??
The Muslim Brotherhood is financed and supported by Saudi Arabia, and has been heavily funded by House of Saud since Fahd Bin Abdul ascended the throne in 1982.
Saudi Arabia funds the Muslim Brotherhood, the MSA ( Muslim student association across US and Canadian universities), Hamas, ISNA ( Islamic Society of North America), OIC (Organization of Islamic cooperation) among many other fronts to promote Sharia law and Islam.
Saudi Arabia is handing Egypt to the Muslim Brotherhood on silver platter, there seems to be misunderstanding the role Saudi Arabia is playing on the world stage. The House of Saud has funded Muslim organizations with over 100 Billion since in the last 25 years, much of this going to Wahhabi School systems, the MB and Hamas.
“The prospect of a Muslim Brotherhood regime controlling Egypt’s parliament as well as the presidency was too horrible to contemplate, especially in light of the unending horror in Syria.”
Amazing how nobody in the State Department or at the White House could see that happening. Which should really make people nervous that our own people decided to help overthrow Mubarak without knowing what would replace him. But that always seems to be the case with the Obama administration. In Egypt, Libya, Yemen, and Algeria, Obama’s minions always liked to go for regime change without having a clue as to what to do after the regime changed. No wonder Putin looked like he was going to spit on Obama at the Mexico summit. Putin probably has nothing but contempt for Obama and it shows. Putin never behaved that way to George W. Bush and it showed as well. I can’t wait to see these people get voted out of office in November. The world will be a lot safer when they are.
Of course the people in State and the WH see it happening, they want it to happen. MB has had it’s hooks in the dems since at least the time Huma joined Hillary in the Clinton admin.
Isn’t it funny how the story of one of Hillary’s top aids being so closely linked to MB is “not a story”?
I don’t know what the role of the US in all of this has been. Sure, there are State Dept types who never met an Islamist they didn’t like but there are also close military relationships. It’s also true that the Saudis have funded the MB in the past, when the MB was a small and persecuted group; now that the MB is a serious contender for power, the MB might replace the Saudi monarchy.
In my experience, career DoS political bureau types in the field are generally as patriotic a group of Americans as one will find anywhere (and often a lot “smarter” and on-the-ball than other departments.
Their “intelligence” reporting compares favorably w/product by traditional intel agencies and the military. The news analysis of Wikilinks demonstrates this point.
I would not make always say the same about USAID.
In that case one might question your ‘experience’.
But even with the best and truest of reports from the field, the czars and the libertines cavorting in the palace halls don’t read the reports — and couldn’t understand them if they did.
“In that case one might question your ‘experience’”.
Feel free to do so. Since I post w/a tag rather than my name I don’t expect a mention of experience to be dispositive. But I also cited the news analysis of the Wiki-leaks and, from what I’ve read there, DoS reporting compares quite favorably to that of other agencies.
Regarding the patriotism and skills of DoS employees, feel free to visit their personnel stationed at any small combat outpost in a key terrain district of Afghanistan and make your own assessment.
“the czars and the libertines cavorting in the palace” … one might question your prose. One might describe it as a bit on the purple side.
I did not mean to cast aspersions on State Department personnel in general. Some of my best friends are State Department employees.
David – I certainly didn’t think you were disparaging DoS employees and understood that you were replying to commenters above. My note was intended to reply to various commenters.
I acknowledge that there are a fair amount of turkeys among the political appointees at DoS during certain administrations, and also among careerists (ex., Nick Burns). On the other hand, the rank and file types are patriotic (even if a bit more liberal than military officers), often very bright and, at many posts, live with significant risk (just ask any special agent of the Diplomatic Security Service).
IMHO, both the quality of reporting produced by DoS political and economic officers and their local contact networks compares favorably with those of U.S. military officers, intelligence agency officers and federal law enforcement agents deployed overseas.
BTW, I have never been employed by DoS.
Thank you MarcH (and David). Some of that political reporting has been mine, and done so from within a war zone. I am one of those DoS career diplomats that so many on PJM love to disparage, and it’s nice to read others on this site who do not question our patriotism. Most (unfortunately not all) of us at State do this job for love of flag and country. For most of us, all it takes is few tours outside the US to really see it, warts and all. After seeing how most of the world lives (including our democratic allies) most of us in the “striped-pants crowd” have trouble holding back that lump in the throat when we see the flag go by. So again, thank you.
Thank you for your service and happy (upcoming) July 4th. If you are still deployed to a war zone, be safe and God speed.
Egypt military may have put a band-aid to the bleeding patient. Unless the military performs economic miracles Egypt is destine for chaos and self destruction just as we are seeing in Syria and in future Iraq. If the Saudi dictatorship thinks that oppressing MB in Egypt is going to save their Kingdom they are hallucinating. Sooner rather than latter the flames that fueled the Arab Spring in North Africa and currently burning in Syria will spread into the rest of the Arab world. Contrary to the punditclass fantasies There never was or will be an Arab Spring any time soon.
Egypt’s economy is hopeless, but the costs of keeping one nostril above water are manageable, at least on paper — perhaps $12 billion a year, which the Gulf States could manage. That presumes an end to the massive flight capital and looting of the economy that drained Egyptian reserves after the overthrow of Mubarak. There are too many “if’s” to be optimistic, but the Saudis do have a problem: chaos favors the MB (which, as I’ve written, wants chaos), and they fear the MB almost as much as the Iranians. Very hard to predict the short term as it involves the decisions of a handful of people who do not typically consult me.
That works in the short run, but the Saudi oil fields are depleting, and if they’ve discovered any new oil, they’ve been keeping it as secret as Obama’s college transcripts. The best available information is that they’re going to be having fiscal difficulties as all this new fracking oil comes online (despite the efforts of their allies in the green movement), and their dwindling resources face stiff competition from the New World (and even Israel and Jordan!).
They can cough up 12 billion this year and next, but how long can they keep doing that, with their own internal fiscal issues?
KSA actually has lots of oil… but it’s heavy and sour.
Consequently KSA is being forced into the oil refining business.
At Yanbu, 400,000 bbl/day output — mostly ultra-low diesel/ middle distillate, KSA is building the first of four stages of such capacity.
KSA has far more heavy, sour crude in the ground than she ever had in Arabia light — the OPEC benchmark.
How she addresses secondary recovery should be most interesting.
For those so certain of KSA’s decline: typically most oil is recovered — slowly — via secondary means. ( Water flood and the like )
From 1938 until now, KSA has but rarely employed secondary methods. (!)
( Gas re-injection and some water flood is and has been used. )
Europe must be relieved as well- I doubt they could handle a zillion boat people with attitude.
It seems pretty tenuous and a hell of a way to run a country.
While the true agitators for liberty in Tahrir Square (I have no idea what that actual number is) get shuffled aside in the power-mongering games.
Mr Goldman:
Could you please expound on what you think would happen in the event of a financial collapse and a Muslim Brotherhood takeover?
I am assuming that Israel would be at grave risk. However, the realities of mass starvation also mean that there is only a short time frame within which you can mobilize large groups. Eventually, your army is too weak to fight. Starving Egyptians might instead try and scatter to neighboring Muslim countries in search of food. I would think that anyone, even the MB, would be hard put to it to take control of 84 million desperate souls during a widespread famine.
Everything would happen. The MB would start revolutionary uprisings in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and the UAE, and there would be a bloody kaleidoscope of temporary alliances between difference Sunni and Shi’ite factions. Christians in Egypt would be persecuted horribly. Thousands of Egyptians would land on Greek islands in small boats asking for food. Israel’s southern border would erupt.
” Israel’s southern border would erupt”
Yes, the MB would, with gunfire and tanks, force tens of thousands of their own starving people to run for their very lives, and to stream into Israel en masse one day, just to have a “Zionist Massacre” they could complain about.
They are the vilest scum of this earth, and deserve nothing less than full Nuclear Annihilation should they come to power.
The MB doesn’t have that kind of muscle or support – not even close.
Goldman, and Bret Stephens are about the only two people I can think of who have been realistic about the absolute horror that would accompany *any* MB regime — whether in Egypt or elsewhere. I’ve been extremely dismayed from the beginning about the reaction of otherwise intelligent people with respect to toppling Mubarak. The man will go down as a benign dictator in history. After all, he held together a country which, was perpetually on the brink of catastrophe.
The wild rate of population growth guarantees that Egypt cannot possibly maintain itself in the long term. That and the abysmal rate of literacy. The likely outcome of these are bread riots and war with Israel.
Given that, why anyone would become a cheerleader for quote end-quote Egyptian Democracy is beyond me (given, that is, the lurking power of the MB — a potential disaster of unimaginable proportions).
Since Mubarak first got into trouble, I’ve prayed that he survived. As a staunch supporter of Israel, I knew that any alternative to Mubarak (other than perhaps his son) would be a catastrophe. Unless the military can pull off this coup, a catastrophe is indeed what will occur.
Just imagine if the MB, in power, gathered or urged a “mere” one million Egyptians to “march on Israel” — Israel would be forced to massacre them if they actually got near the border. Perhaps this is outside the realm of possibilities, but if it did happen, it would be a true horror (foisted upon Israel).
Not at all outside the realm of possibility. The MB is very likely to organize a mass movement to march on Israel. This would serve 2 purposes, to focus the public on an external enemy, and thus distract attention from their inability to feed the populace. And it would eventually reduce the number of hungry mouth to feed when the marching people either die of thirst in the Sinai or by bullets at the Israeli border.
Which brings up an interesting question. Mr. Goldman has written extensively about the demographic collapse taking place in the Islamic world. Egypt would appear to be an exception. Wikipedia shows a 2010 estimated fertility of 2.97 births/woman. Not exactly population explosion, but well above replacement. Any thoughts on that?
I’m not sure if you were addressing Goldman or myself with that question, but I’ll say the following. First, you’re right, I spoke off the cuff — I’m surprised that 3 is the TFI (Total Fertility Rate) for Egypt (I would have thought higher). On the other hand, take a look at this graph, and you’ll see that as early as 20 years ago the TFI was 4.
http://tinyurl.com/7vzmt4f
Clearly Egypt’s rate of reproduction has been relatively high for all but the past 10 – 20 years. (6 in 1960). Still, I should have been more careful. And the decline of the rate itself in fact fits in with Goldman’s overall thesis of Islam committing suicide by demographics (which you, Jerome, pointed out).
In his great book, “How Civilizations Die,” Goldman makes the point that the *rate* of decline of the rate-of-births in Muslim countries has been so drastic that it’s this steep rate of decline (or deceleration), not the actual current value per se that is of greater importance.
The point being that from one generation to the next, the number of younger people alive who can help support the older people is of huge importance. So while we might agree that a TFI of 3 is a “healthy” or even still too fast (admittedly not “explosive”) fertility rate for a country with a very low GDP per Capita like Egypt, Goldman would point out the following irrespective of the actual rate. That however many Egyptians are born today there will not be enough of them to support the burden of their parents, born 25 years ago when the TFI was close to 5.
At least that is the thrust of his argument for certain countries where these rates of decline are even more pronounced (e.g. Iran). Although this graph shows that Iran’s decline still blows away the decline of Egypt:
http://tinyurl.com/6pcgosf
It seems to me that Egypt is screwed though no matter what happens. They have a huge rate of unemployment among the youth (at least 25%) — and, ok, while ostensibly not as bad as Spain (50%), I’d bet the Egyptian number is under-reported.
But really, the whole reason we are paying attention to them right now is because they are on the brink of allowing a veritable death cult to take over the country — the Muslim Brotherhood. With 85 Million people, the tiniest misstep will bring catastrophe in any number of ways.
Even now, while the MB is still *not* in office, the mere threat of their winning has, as everyone knows, killed tourism in Egypt. So I doubt they will be maintaining the rate of economic growth. Which means the GDP per Capita is going to sink even lower.
And really, all there needs to be is one bad farm year and whammo, the country will explode.
Lastly, I think we’ll see a massacre of Copts if the military doesn’t win out in this upcoming epic struggle.
– FF
It is written in the Bible that Egypt does not escape the “BEAST” and actually is part of it! Revelation makes it very clear that the “BEAST” in Revelation is centered in Babylon, Iraq and it encompasses a caliphate of Islamic countries that include Egypt. Watch!
It is a hell of a way to run a country. Those that were in Tahrir Square were not prepared for what came after. Once Mubarak was overthrown they broke down into uncoordinated groups each with differing ideas about how they wanted the country to go. The Brotherhood didn’t have that problem. They knew exactly what they wanted and how to go about getting it. They lied, (we won’t field a candidate for president), they bought votes with food out in the outlying countryside, they didn’t take part in the uprising until the very last and then only to cause trouble. They got their people out where the people could see them, learn their names, listen to their promises that they had no intention of keeping. The other side stayed in Cairo, they didn’t go out to the villages until it was too late. The people actually think they had a free and fair election but they didn’t stand a chance.
I’m glad the Army stepped in and stopped the Brotherhood takeover. I don’t have any idea what their intentions are but it has to be better than the alternative. The Army got most of it’s training and equipment from us, they won’t want to do anything that would upset that. They want a say in the government, I’m fine with that too. The Brotherhood would start a purge that would weaken the Army leadership just like they have done in Turkey. And, just like what is happening in Turkey, Egypt would slide deeper into an Islamic nightmare. At least now the people have a chance.
What would happen if the Saudis made a peace treaty with Israel? – yeah I know I’m dreaming.
That whole part of the world needs a flushing.
whose chestnuts?? American ones are not in the fire in Egypt- Israel, and the Egyptian people yes. For Obamantion Israel under fire would suit them just fine. It is not our job to fix the Muslims mess- and I doubt very much KSA is doing this magnanimously for their buddies in USA- KSA knows what’s at stake in Middle East- they have always played both sides – secretly allying with USA and Israel when it seems convenient, and undermining us at any chance publicly for Muslim eyes.
I agree with ALEX above #6 – keeping Egypt stable helps KSA not us
“It is not our job to fix the Muslims mess”
Agreed, but lets for once at least, Officially and Diplomatically, call them what they are, and accept the truth.
They are a Failed civilization.
They are a Failed Culture.
They are a Backward, un-enlightened Anti-human cesspool of violence we rightly hold in absolute utter contempt….they can change their worldview and try to be be like us, in which case we will be their best friend, or they can continue with the primative witchcraft of Mohammad and stay the perpetual slum of regression and failure they’ve always been….
Its not our job to fix them…
But it IS our job, to be honest about who they are.
You’re up against insane political correctness in America that gets offended at the use of the phrase “Third World,” politicians too. Liberals are honestly clueless about the Third World and even when they see it they blame the West and want them all in America and if you object – racist.
http://twitter.com/ReginaldQuill/status/215653808611672064
The Twitterati are shocked, shocked that the Syrian National Council wants to go after Israel as soon as Assad is done away with. Senators John McCain and Lindsey Graham could not be reached for comment.
Touche. Support for the ‘Arab Spring’ continues in the West. There is very little in Israel. Oh, there is disgust at Assad’s brutality but little appetite for the ‘democratic’ opposition still being pushed on CNN and other places.
The correspondent on Fox said that the Islamists are ‘comingled’ with the opposition. Sort of the way rattles are co-mingled with the body of a rattlesnake. The continued support for the Syrian opposition seems to rise with revelation of regime brutalities: fair enough but not bright.
I have read all the comments and I find it quiet appalling that no one seems to care for the Egyptian. Everyone here seems to either worry about Israel or Europe or just their own. And I get this sense that it is your wish that Egypt collapses. You seem to support Mubarak just because he kept Israel safe. What about the Egyptians? Isn’t Egypt for Egyptians after all. I am no MB supporter, but one must admit that for Egyptians a revolution was inevitable. And whatsup with the negative lookout. Everyone is talking as if Egypt is some retarded civilization that’s about to die because they gonna run of bread. I understand that the economy is about to collapse and there is a shortage of food, but if you know anything about Egypt, you’d know that its not the first time. Egypt has been there for a looooong time. Wars and famines have come and gone, but they’re still there.
Of course the ancient Egyptians are still here, if we are talking about the Copts. The question is: how many Egyptians will still be there? It’s not the fault of the West that Egypt imports half its caloric consumption and has to ask for handouts to feed itself. In that case, the best that can happen is that Egypt gets a handout, and the worst is that it doesn’t. That’s what I was writing about. What’s your question?
Hassan, What’s happening in Egypt and The whole Arab world is tragic but unfortunately the Arab world is soo obsess with wiping Israel they are willing to starve to death rather than making peace and flourish along side The Jews. Don’t blame anyone else for your backwardness.
They’ve never had 85 million people before. Most of them are dependent on one single river and they’ve never had that flow threatened by growing populations to the south and with emerging abilities and need to divert that flow.
I’m telling you, the next large-scale military actions of Egypt won’t be with Israel but with the Sudan. Egypt has publicly said for decades that any diversion of the Nile will be considered an act of war. And in 2012, Egypt’s at the break even point with that water – they cannot take a diversion of it. Don’t be a bit surprised in Israel starts helping the South Sudanese or polities further south build dams. Egypt in fact is surrounded and doesn’t have a clue. Israel is building a railroad that’ll siphon off revenues from the Suez and every dollar counts.
ultimately, Egypt needs a return to colonial rule. they are more primitive today than in the days of the pharoahs. bring back English rule
No, please, herb, you and we in general don’t want Brit Colonialism returning to Egypt or anywhere else in the world where they set up those hand-drawn borders (I like to cite the never mentioned Sykes-Picot Agreement). ……borders straddling ethnic, tribal, and religious turf going back centuries which remain a part of the continuous (and contiguous) turmoil in that “Cradle of Civilization”. It can be argued that Sykes-Picot set up the rest of us for the current incubator of murdering Islam.
Besides, the Brits are out of resources to help us, or anyone, from offshore, aside from their heroic soldiers helping us out in Iraq/Afghanistan. Britain is out of the picture….it has become England, Wales and Scotland. Period.
So, I’ll take this opportunity to urge us Americans to let the Saudis donate as much cash and oil as they can afford to the Egyptians, who in any event are beyond help in any domestic organizational efforts they obviously need desperately.
In concern for the vulnerable Copts, I’m wondering if an airlift could be organized from central protected gathering points to temporary re-settlement camps in nearby countries. I know, I know, that’d be a nightmare for the State Department, but maybe they could be left out of the process, and Military Attaches could be sole-authorized to be the organizers, the Pentagon has the practical know-how, not State.
I don’t remember the heroics involved in the Israeli rescue ops from Ethiopia….but there could be parallels.
Containment of Islam should be our strategy. We can maintain their instability by Special Ops here and there, and choice “Flames”….here and there. Foment murderous unrest between Islam’s inherently bloody sects.
Bring our young Military out of that historically spongiform arena.
There are 10 million Copts – they’re not going anywhere.
Hassan, we are supposed to get all warm and fuzzy about a culture/belief system that would annihilate us given half a chance? Are you joking?
Islamic culture has declared war on Western Civilization. Some of us infidels have actually read what is said in the Arab media. We listen to the words of the Imams. We read the news articles from muslim countries. We read the words of Mohammed the so-called prophet. We notice the plight of non-muslims and women in majority muslim countries. We see how muslims act once they are imported into western culture (for example, the rape statistics in Sweden-what a sweet way to say “thank you for letting me immigrate” to the Swedes). We see that Islam is anything BUT a religion of peace. To put it bluntly, muslims have a well deserved bad reputation among those who pay attention.
It’s unfortunate that your religion and culture are the way they are….but YOU are the ones that have to change it. It’s not our job. It is our job to protect OUR culture from those who would destroy it.
So I suggest that you and your fellow muslims get together and figure out a way to save Egypt from itself. After all, what would Allah do?
Brava, Brava, Elizabeth for posting those well worded points.
Add my name to the list of those who’re tired of being “used’ and considered useful idiots by our Islamic enemy. We’re too diffident and self-consciously “politically correct”…what a nauseous term.
Our problem is that we Americans can’t be jolted into the reality of what Islam’s self declared war on America means……today…right now.
The horrible morning in September of 2001 seems not to’ve been enough.
I object to the tone of this reply. There is no reason to assume that every Muslim who posts on this board is doing so with the intent of harming us. Most Muslims are emphatically not militant Islamists. Surely we want to have a civilized conversation with Muslims who do not mean us harm and ask reasonable questions. Everyone deserves to be treated with dignity (except people who really want to hurt us).
So please: Do not vex the stranger.
….it’s your Blog, and I stand chastised….again…..last time poster, I promise.
But, I premise that Muslims, especially those resident here in America, whining anywhere about candid anti-Muslim comments….. such as mine, are being hypocrites…how can they be practicing Muslims and draw salaries here in our rampantly hedonistic, crass, capitalistic society? ….aren’t those the same rancid characteristics so condemned by their Koran?
They must be holding their noses. Do they have a dispensation?
Another poster has suggested that I’m venting my spleen from behind a keyboard….how so?….while I’m using my real name here?
Splenetic, indeed…..not from behind a keyboard, but remembering close to 3,000 violent deaths caused by Muslims here in America that September morning.
David – Thank you for attempting to maintain civility w/in the comments section. Unfortunately, it is an uphill struggle.
9-11 inspired a lot of interesting and even brilliant writing by bloggers and commenters. This community does good and innovative work to identify the problem and build public support for strategies to counter millitant Islamists. Unfortunately, 9-11 also inspired some who just want to vent their spleen from behind the keyboard.
Shabbat Shalom.
Mr Goldman-
It is my understanding that only 10% of the German population were card carrying members of tne Nazi party. The remaining 90% of the German population didn’t stop the Nazis from rolling over Europe in a bloody holocaust. The most recent elections in Egypt had about a 50-50 split for Islamist/not Islamist.
In the US….even worse odds.
“While Egyptians inside Egypt were split in their vote in their recent election, Egyptians living in the West were overwhelmingly in support of the Islamist candidate. Indeed, many Egyptian Americans who have dual citizenship and are living in America voted at Egyptian consulates throughout the United States. They did so both in the primary Egyptian elections, which occurred a few weeks ago, and now in the recent final elections for president of Egypt between the Muslim Brotherhood candidate Mohamed Mursi and the former Prime Minister, Ahmed Shafiq.
Both Alarabiya TV and Egyptian national TV reported that Egyptian immigrants voted 75% in favor of the Muslim Brotherhood candidate in the primary. Now in the final elections, again Egyptian immigrants voted over 75% for Mursi. If we consider the Christian Egyptian Americans who voted for the former prime minister of Egypt, the percentage of Muslim Egyptian Americans who voted for Islamists could have reached over 95%.”
My point being that unless the “moderate” muslims are willing to pick up a gun and defend their moderation, they will be caught up in the Islamist tide just like the “moderate” Germans. I see little indication that this will occur, and I see no reason to sugar coat this belief. In the meantime, the belief in the moderate muslim (despite the fact that Islam is NOT a moderate religion) is allowing us to be infiltrated (see above), with potentially devastating consequences for the civilization and people that I love.
Since this is your board, I bow to your rules and am now placing myself on double secret probation.
Elizabeth,
I have never been accused of having an overly optimistic view of world events (that’s why I like this blog). Also I am quite familiar with the depressing and conditions and prospects in much of the Muslim world. Nevertheless, if you study the subject I think you will see that there are moderate Muslims (a relatively small set) and traditional Muslims who want to ally with us to resist militants Islamists.
Allying with moderates and traditionalists is often in our best interests, regardless of the long term possibilities in the Muslim world. Working with them to defeat the glamour and myth of the militant Islamists (“humiliation” as “Spengler” has written about it) may even open the way to some improvement in the Muslim world. I believe that this is roughly the position of Daniel Pipes.
There are numerous examples of moderate and traditional Muslims resisting militant Islamists with incredible courage. I think Iran in 2009 was the most inspiring and ultimately tragic.
IMHO, the biggest obstacle to more moderate Muslims resisting is that they recognize that we are gutless Westerners who will leave them in the lurch.
Regarding this thread, I think the correct COA is to back the Egyptian military establishment as there is no other realistic option.
Muslims are going to have a choice: to join the modern world and adapt to its rules, or to try to fight it. We want them to join us rather than fight us. Some will join, some will fight. That decision isn’t up to us, but if a Muslim wants to post on this board and ask legitimate questions, basic civility (what we call derekh eretz) requires that we be hospitable and polite.
You’ve stumbled upon the awful truth. All highly successful movements are fundamentally peaceful, yet with a fundamentally violent underside that occasionally spews out in controlled (or fortunately timed uncontrolled) doses. Nazis, Muslims, civil rights, revolutions, even hippies. They find the best combination of decent quality true believers, useful idiots, mediocre tools, and dangerous thugs who quietly dictate the terms of debate, through their actions instead of words. Actions are all that matter.
The idiots might even try to calm tensions, but false promises of reform only delay action and strengthen the mob’s resolve. The “students” with twitter accounts and international blogs are not helping anyone but the extremists. They should stay at home and eat falafel and they would accomplish more.
“Muslims are going to have a choice: to join the modern world and adapt to its rules, or to try to fight it.”
David, our situation is a palindrome. So far, though, the script is being read from right to left.
(Arabic is right to left, isn’t it? Backwards and regressive, you know.)
I’m no cultural relativist. I wrote a book claiming that Islam is dying. But that doesn’t mean that over a billion individual Muslims should die! When Communism fell, it turned out that there weren’t many Communists in Russia. I doubt there are many Muslims in Iran, for example. I insist that any Muslim who wants to post on this site should be treated with respect.
As a wise concentration camp survivor once said “when someone says they want to kill you, believe them”. THEY have said it, multiple times in multiple countries in multiple languages. I believe them. I also have little trust because of the established practice of lying to advance the cause of Islam (taqyia).
In terms of respect, if I were walking the streets of Egypt alone as a blond haired blue eyed infidel woman, how would I be treated? Would I be safe from insult and physical attack? If I were an Egyptian woman, would I be physically mutilated because of my religion? Would I have to wear a certain type of dress in public to keep myself from being physically abused? If I went out in public, would I be safe from assault or would Egyptian men regard me as fair game? If I wanted to leave Islam, what would happen to me? If I dishonored my family, what would happen to me? If I wanted to drive by myself in Saudi Arabia, what would happen to me? If I wanted to go out without a burkha, what would happen to me? If my husband was abusive, what recourse would I have? Could I be married off at the age of 8 to a man 20, 30, 40, 50 years older then myself? Would I be able to protect my daughter from such a marriage? Would I be able to have an education, a career?
Asking a woman to respect Islam is like asking the sheep to respect the wolf!
But your point about courtesy is duly noted and I will abide by it. I just hope that doesn’t mean not being able to ask the hard questions.
I didn’t say, “Respect Islam.” I said that individual Muslims who post here and ask legitimate questions must be treated with dignity.
Mr. Goldman-
Point taken. But many times in our PC world, being “treated with dignity” means not being asked difficult questions or challenged (politely, of course!).
Would I have been able to make my original point in a way that would have met with your approval?
Alright alright alright. That is a lot to respond to.
First of all, thanks Mr Goldman for the defense. Not defending my ideas, but just my right to post.
First of all, let me just say that I honestly believe that Islam has failed. Religion was meant to improve society and the human condition. If we look at the Muslim or the Arab world today, I think its safe to say they are back to their pre-Islam time if not worse. But one must wonder: Is it Islam’s fault or is it the people who represent it?
Second of all, I do not blame the west or Israel or anyone of Egypt’s failure. I totally disagree every time an Egyptian would tell me oh Israel must be behind this or the US is behind that. Our failure is our own.
Now Elizabeth about the vote, It is very naive to say that Egyptians voted 50-50 Islamist vs non Islamist. First of all in the first round the vote to the revolutionary candidates is more than 50% of the vote. Unfortunately it was split over 3 candidates so they’re all out. Yes its stupid of us, but excuse us, democracy is kind of new around here. Now about the foreign vote that was mostly to the MB, don’t forget that most Egyptian immigrants are in the Arab world. It did not come from the US or Canada(where I am). Nonetheless let me tell you that If I have to choose between Ahmed Shafiq(the candidate from Mubarak’s regime) and a monkey, I will have to choose the monkey even if that monkey happens to be the MB.
Now lets actually go to the 25% that voted for MB in Egypt. I can assure that 90% of them have no idea what they’re doing. MB is extremely organized and have been there for a long time. They buy a whole family’s vote with a piece of meat. People in Egypt don’t have political opinions, they just want to eat. You are really overestimating the regular Egyptian if you think they hate the west and want to declare ware on Israel through voting to the MB. You clearly have never walked in Egypt. When you’re hungry, you can’t care less where Israel is.
Now about the Muslim immigrants that you are claiming that all they do is rape women in Sweden, I’ll have to just call that rude as it is. There are millions of Muslim immigrants doing great things all over the world.
MarcH: No. Going back to the military is not a solution for Egyptians. Yes it keeps Israel safe, but Israel really isn’t the Egyptian’s primary concern. Again Egypt is for Egyptians so priority #1 would be to make it a better country for Egyptians. That is the reason why I decided to comment here in the first place. Everyone is talking about how the situation in Egypt is affecting everyone else and no one seems to say what would be best for Egyptians.
You’re right that Israel isn’t a primary concern in a realistic sense and it certainly wasn’t during the revolution. However the hatred of Israel is so wide spread it’s simply there, sitting under the surface and easily manipulated. The MB made a parliamentary resolution against Israel that passed 100%. Not one man had the courage to stand up and say we have other fish to fry. That’s just crazy given Egypt’s internal problems. Egypt MUST turn it’s back on this sentiment because it could destroy them. The MB is insane in this regard.
What’s best for Egypt is to stop having children but how is that going to happen? It’s engrained in the culture but Egypt has too many people to survive and the population is growing. Recently there were gas shortages in the south.
Even as I write they’re filling up Tahrir and the MB is uniting with other groups to face a common enemy, the army. But the army is smart now and doesn’t challenge in the streets outside a couple of enclaves they barricade behind – there’s no way to get at them short of the massive unity of revolution and that’s not going to happen. Too many people are sick of it. Many want to give the process time. As imperfect as it is the process has moved forward, new precedents come regularly.
Egyptians are as nice a people as you’ll meet anywhere and that is their saving grace. Everyone has faults and the Egyptians theirs. If I were a President I’d do the opposite of Nasser and invite foreign families from Greece, Portugal and Italy to come in and start businesses with special incentives, new blood. Announce it publicly to undo the bigoted nationalism of Nasser that kicked them out in the first place so Egyptians don’t get angry. Foreigners will create jobs and add a sense of a more open society – tourists will come back – investments too.
“If I were a President I’d do the opposite of Nasser and invite foreign families from Greece, Portugal and Italy”
Now that is an intriguing idea. I expect it would not work because immigrants from those countries would prefer Australia or Brazil, but it’s a seductive picture.
Hassan,
Welcome to this blog.
In response to some of your points:
1. I don’t welcome the military solution in Egypt. I’m not an Egypt expert, but IMHO it’s the best of a bad set of alternatives for all, including U.S. interests, Egyptians (Muslim and Christian) and, yes, Israel.
2. I’m intrigued by your comment, “I honestly believe that Islam has failed“. What would you suggest as an alternative organizing template for presently Islamic societies and how would you suggest getting from A to B? I am genuinely interested in your thoughts on this matter.
What would be best for Egyptians?
If they had leaders with the self discipline to steal in moderation. Egypt is, from what I have heard and read, like Chicago on steroids. Nothing can be done without the approval of somebody with connections.
The energy of individual people starting businesses and creating wealth from their own efforts is the goose that lays the golden eggs in any society. In Egypt, the connected people constantly squeeze the goose to produce more golden eggs until the goose is crushed and there are no more eggs. It is essentially like having a 100% tax rate. There is not a lot of incentive to do much if somebody else gets all the product of your labor.
I have often heard that the Egyptian government wants to encourage people to settle in the western desert. It seems to me that if an area were established where people were free to engage in any economic activity that did not harm anybody else, a free zone in the western desert could generate as much wealth as Hong Kong or Singapore. Unfortunately, I do not think that Egypt’s rulers are capable of allowing that much wealth to go unstolen.
Hassan,
Thanks for ignoring the discourtesy of some posters and sticking around, and also thanks for this highly informative comment. Here’s my problem, though: Egypt imports half its food and is basically broke. Massive fuel shortages broke out in April and were already causing bread shortages (bakeries shut down for lack of fuel in a few places). The country really was on the brink. The Muslim Brotherhood was launching assaults on Saudi consulates. Why? As I read it, the MB wants hunger so it can gain power on the streets by rationing food. The Saudis are the most important source of emergency cash, and the MB wanted to sabotage Egyptian-Saudi relations. The Saudis want the military to stay in power. And they are saving Egyptians from actual hunger. It’s really ugly that the choice is 1) the MB, hunger, and chaos, and 2) the military and bare survival. What am I missing?
I should have added that Hassan is absolutely correct: most Muslim immigrants to the US are law-abiding, productive citizens (although there is a disturbing large minority that favors and even supports terrorism).
On could also add that U.S. law enforcement and intelligence, as well as military operations in Afghanistan (and previously Iraq) depend on loyal and hard working U.S. national native linguists of Arabic and other Middle Eastern languages. Most, but not all, are Muslim.
In Iraq and Afghanistan, both U.S. national and local national linguists served U.S. forces well, often in harm’s way.
In Oslo, Norway’s capital, 100 percent of rapes are committed by ‘non-Western’ immigrants. As a result, the female staff at the Radisson Blu Hotel in Oslo has received training in martial arts, and all female employees are wearing alarms — basically to be able to defend themselves against Muslim rapists.
The latest news is that in Stavanger, Norway’s 4th biggest city, nine out of ten rapes are committed by ‘men from minority groups’.
With hidden cameras and secret telephone recording equipment, two women went to the country’s ten largest mosques to ask for advice regarding polygamy, abuse and sex without consent. Tonight’s Uppdrag, broadcast on SVT, documents that the advice of the mosque’s representatives are often contradictory to Swedish law. …
The crime rate among Muslims in the West is catastrophically high. Seven out of 10 inmates in Danish youth prisons have immigrant backgrounds, and almost all of them are raised in Muslim families. The first seven or eight places on the top-10 list of criminals’ nationality are occupied by immigrants from Muslim countries.
Since the publication of his drawings back in 2007, threats against him have multiplied. He has been physically attacked during lectures and two Muslim immigrants have tried to kill him by setting fire to his house. Not to mention a number of people arrested by the security service before they could implement their assassination plans.
The four men, all of whom resided in Sweden, are suspected of preparing what Danish security service PET called a plan to “kill as many people as possible” in an assault on the Copenhagen offices of the Jyllands-Posten daily.
Jyllands-Posten published a dozen cartoons in 2005 of the Prophet Muhammad that triggered violent and sometimes deadly protests around the world.
Sweden is terrified by a long row of murders committed in broad daylight. In most cases, both the killer and the victim are Muslims. The murders should thus be seen as public executions, often happening according to the sharia’s honour codes.
Again, Brava…Brava….Brava…..
Elizabeth, I know that Muslims are responsible for a disproportionately large number of rapes in Norway and Sweden. I’ve found it… bewildering, the extent to which Scandinavians maintain their apparent love affair with Muslims in spite of this. Frankly, this allows me to ignore the Norwegian penchant for never finding fault with the Palestinians.
That being said, may I inquire as to a source for the “100%” number? I’m quite willing to believe that a highly disproportionate number of Muslims commit the rapes in Oslo. And I’m also willing to cede that your 100% number may have been exaggeration-for-effect (a legitimate tool) — and that the actual number is, say 80-something percent (a number I invented).
Still, I am now curious as to what the figure actually is (if such statistics are known). I have read many articles about this plague affecting young Norwegian daughters. I strongly sympathize with both the victims and their fathers.
While I found my reception in Norway to be possibly the warmest among all the European countries I’ve visited (I *really* loved the place and the people), I still cannot imagine that there are no Norwegian rapists. But, hey, maybe I’m wrong. Or maybe, the point is that it’s a statistically insignificant number.
They barely have cops in Norway. It’s not like America. But they’re learning about the wonders of diversity. Certainly crime is more diverse.
This means that the pro-Brotherhood Obama administration and the pro-Egyptian military Saudis are working at cross purposes. Another Obama bow that boomeranged.
BTW, the Egyptian military and Brethren/Salafists are proxies in the greater conflict between the Saudis and Iran for regional hegemony.
What is most disturbing, is that so much evidence pointed to Obama throwing the Saudis aside and intentionally letting oil prices explode, unlike the neocon Bushs. Environmentalist rhetoric, green jobs, high speed rail, climate change, cap and trade, Solyndra, etc. Yet, the foreign policy has not changed one bit; it has gotten worse, if anything. In context of his energy policies, one can see that Obama might actually sincerely believe in these Muslim revolutions. It’s nothing short of horrifying.
“greater conflict between the Saudis and Iran for regional hegemony” – Nice to see a comment that focuses on the big picture. I would only add that Turkey is also a contender.
Falafel, if you want sources, let me know.
Here are the results of a quick search for the latter half of June news articles,
ALEXANDRIA, Va. — Federal prosecutors are seeking more than 12 years in prison for a Muslim convert from Brooklyn who pleaded guilty to posting online threats against the creators of the “South Park” television show.
He also conspired with another man to deliver a thinly veiled threat to the creators of the “South Park” television show for perceived insults to the prophet Muhammad.The other defendant in the case, Zachary Chesser, got a 25-year sentence, but he also tried to travel to Somalia to join the al-Shabab militant group.
LUBBOCK, Texas – Twice in the days leading up to Khalid Ali-M Aldawsari’s arrest federal agents secretly searched the Saudi man’s West Texas apartment, where they say they found bomb-making chemicals as well as beakers, flasks, wiring, a hazmat suit and clocks.
ST .LOUIS, MO (KTVI) – Two St. Louis area men said they have received death threats from Iran and they are taking those threats seriously. The said a fatwa, or religious decree, has been put on their heads.
New York man pleads guilty to aiding al Qaeda,” by Basil Katz for Reuters, June 18:
NEW YORK (Reuters) – A New York man pleaded guilty on Monday to terrorism charges for helping the militant group al Qaeda. Brooklyn, New York-born Wesam El-Hanafi, 37, pleaded guilty to one count of providing material support to a terrorist group and one count of conspiracy.
Dearborn: “Sharia is coming, baby!”
“Falafel, if you want sources, let me know”.
He already specifically asked you for the source of your claim that “100 percent of rapes are committed by ‘non-Western’ immigrants”.
Flafel-here is a clarification of the translated article.
It’s not that 100% of all rapes in Oslo over the past five years were committed by foreigns. It’s that 100% of “assault rapes” ["overfallsvoldtekt"] — 86 altogether over the last five years — were all committed by foreigners. Assault rapes mean being assaulted and raped by a stranger while, say, walking home alone along the street at night, as opposed to maybe being raped by an acquaintance while drunk at a party or something.
So, almost all (i.e. all of the ones where the attacker was eventually identified) of the attack rapes by strangers in Oslo over the last 5 years were committed by non-Norwegians.
Thank you. Yes — that is exactly the clarification I was looking for. I wonder how many, IF any “assault rapes” occurred in the distant past. I assume the number of assault rapes over the years correlates with the increase in immigration to Oslo. I would assume also that most of the immigrants are, as the BBC says, “Asian.”
In any case, thanks for the clarification Elizabeth.
Fortunately for the West, Egypt’s military appears to have taken matters in hand with Saudi support, forestalling the triumph of militant Islamism…
I agree with King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz bin Abdulrahman bin Faisal bin Turki bin Abdullah bin Muhammad bin Saud on this. When you’re dealing with a mess, ya gotta keep it under control. When governing Moslems, dictatorship is the best option from the standpoint not only of the Moslem ruler, but also any Infidel with half a brain.
The loss of Muburak was a real loss. Thank goodness for this bold power move by King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz bin Abdulrahman bin Faisal bin Turki bin Abdullah bin Muhammad bin Saud. He comes from a rich lineage, one that needs to be made bigger in Dar al-Islam.
There are no guarantees that Egypt would have avoided the coming famine if it had grown more of its own food. History has many lessons of resistance gone wrong. Joseph Stalin, leader of the Soviet Union, set in motion events designed to cause a famine in the Ukraine to destroy the people there seeking independence from his rule. As a result, an estimated 7,000,000 persons perished in this farming area, known as the breadbasket of Europe, with the people deprived of the food they had grown with their own hands.
Those who propose that moderates have an obligation to resist the radicals probably had three full meals today already. Sometimes the deck is so stacked against you that resistance is not a viable option. It is difficult to reflect on what’s coming Egypt’s way without sadness…
“Where is the snow job of yesteryear?”
Right there with last night tears.
Ah, Mr.Goldman, you are a delight at so many levels.
The radicals will survive a famine and all to prove that ultimately fat people are weaker. How much do you weigh?
Sorry for the late reply. I’ve been sick all week.
MarcH: About my comment Islam has failed, I think there are two possible scenarios that can happen. 1. Islam will die away as a failed concept that doesn’t benefit anyone and its societies will start having modern concepts for its basis. 2. It will get rethought/revived and changed to fit the current times. I think what failed Islam is that its people are stuck in the past. Islam was doing great when Muslims were rethinking it and developing laws that matched their time. This already happened before from 750 CE to 1257 CE. That was a time when you found Muslim philosophers adjusted the laws to fit their time and place. It was a time when the Muslims were contributing to science. Today we are still basing our laws on the same thinkers because we no longer produce any thinkers. Islam seems (is) retarded because it is. Trying to link this back to the point of the forum, take a look at Egypt for example, They have the Al-Azhar university with a great history of Islamic research, yet its in a country where 50% of the people can’t read or write and that goes back to the fact the Muslim countries are ran by dictators.
There is something else I wanted to say. About Obama backing up the brotherhood. I really don’t think at this point, the US chooses who comes to power in Egypt. Its more like they wanna be friends with whoever is coming to power. I also think that Obama is being underestimated. I actually think he’s been very effective against terrorism. Islamic terrorism feeds on hate towards the US and Israel. It must have been a heck a lot easier for terrorist organization to recruit when the US was under George Bush than to do it now. Obama has figured out a way to stop the hate and I personally think that that alone is extremely effective against terrorism. You tell me how easy it is to make an Iraqi young man in his teens who finds his life hopeless believe that his family and country’s conditions are a fault of the US when Bush was around. How easy it is to make him radically turn towards God as the only hope and that killing the “infidels” that destroyed his country will get him into Heaven and end this misery. I think Obama has made that argument much much harder.
Lastly, the last thing I wanna say is that it is really ridiculous how the media has transformed religious Arabic words into these scary things like Shariaa and Allah Akbar. I mean understand its ultimately our fault, but come on, its just become catch phrases for headlines. I am an Arabic speaker and I can’t easily define the word “shariaa”, yet for you I bet you automatically picture a covered woman being stoned to death.
Anyway thats enough for me. I’ll see what you guys say before I say more.