It’s hard to imagine what Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi really said to Chinese President Hu Jintao in their meeting today – probably not “Chairman… er… President Hu would you kindly refrain from distracting your people from the proto-fascist activities of your government with street demonstrations against what Japan did in 1930s?”
According to Reuters: Asked how the meeting went as he left a Jakarta hotel where the talks took place, Koizumi said: “Very good.” He made no other remarks.
UPDATE: Speaking of zen, for today’s LA Times Festival of Books, “showers” were predicted, yet now the skies over Hollywood are clear. What next? The sound of a frog jumping in the Los Angeles River?
Ack! My coffee!
Very funny, Roger.
Prime Minister Zen, Prime Minister Judo (sidestep, let opponent charge into brick wall).
Quick, a blogospheric pop quiz for those with better knowledge of the topic: what is the best rough estimate as to the multiple of Chinese murdered by the communists and their regime since taking power compared to those Chinese murdered by the Japanese militarists in the 30s/40s?
It just occurs to me that I haven’t heard a journalist asking a rather blazingly obvious question of Chinese officials: considering that more Chinese were murdered by Chinese governments from the 1940s onward than were killed by the Japanese invaders, why does Mao’s portrait still hang at Tienanmen Square?
(I’m obviously assuming that, in fact, more Chinese DID die due to communist actions and policies than died at the hands of the Japanese army, and that Mao’s portrait is still up — if either premise is incorrect, cue Emily Latella’s voice saying “never mind”)
Since when has there been a rule that the behaviour of one party, however, egregious is to be forgotten if the behaviour of the other party is even more egregious?
The EU and “China” are in the throes of a similar problem, as my small mind conceives it, though one is going up the ladder and the other is coming down. I doubt if the EU can ever become much more than an economic club, and I doubt “China” can last much longer as a continent pretending to be a country, and not devolve into an economic club a la the EU. I hope both Europe and its EU and the continent formerly known as China end up at about the same place and sooner rather than later. But going down this ladder is far more dangerous than a slow ascent up, and “China” could very well slip off and be in a free fall at any moment. They could also, instead of coming down from their grotesque heights achieved by the slaughter of millions and the suppression of history far greater than anything Japan does, or could do, give it one last Mao try and then I surely will be living in interesting times and in an interesting place. So that this does not happen, the best thing, again in my opinion, that the U.S. and its allies, including Japan, can do is make it abundantly clear the mythical middle Kingdom has spread as far as it is going to without a fight, speak softly (Koizumi’s “very good” being very good) and carry the proverbial big stick. The memory of Amb. Mondale saying that the Senkaku Islands may not be within the American sphere of influence, and thus implying they were China’s for the taking, which was very reminiscent of Acheson giving up South Korea in word and sixth months later the North Koreans taking it in deed, speaks volumes for the nineties and the Clinton malaise. Mondale got sacked as a result, but the damage had already been done. Armitage, to his credit, made it perfectly clear that American policy is not agnostic on this issue, which goes a long ways in understanding why Japan, feeling it has a real partner, has taken sides with Taiwan. Things are heating up around here, no doubt, and look for China’s proxy North Korea to up the ante in the near future. In conclusion, ironically, the anti-Japanese demonstrations may be divinations of, relatively speaking, good things to come. The center cannot hold. But it’s the weekend and on weekends I’m ever the optimist. I can afford to be since Kerry lost.
Oh, frogs jump in.
They just don’t jump out…
Yama, batten down the hatches, hold fast, and write often.
BTW, to Mondale and Acheson’s unfortunate statements, I think you can add practically everything that ever fell out of Carter’s and Albright’s mouths, wrt to the NoKos.
Yama,
You might wish to add Gillespie’s conversation with Saddam concerning Kuwait in ’91 to your list of ambassadorial faux pas with negative consequences. Having dealt with China (in a very small way) for over ten years, I have to say that I agree with you 100% concerning internal tension driving its actions. The “Chinese economic miracle”, IMO, is driven as much by improper capital and resource cost allocation as by the vaunted “cheap labor”. Ignoring the labor component for the moment, if anyone is allowed to ignore the cost of capital they employ when creating pricing models they will surely achieve sales “success”. Until the capital is deplenished and must be replaced.
I don’t believe that China is anywhere near as hollow as the USSR was but I do not believe that it is anywhere near as strong and cohesive as it appears. I would wager that China will shed more Chinese blood in the next twenty years thant it has in the past sixty in order to maintain the facade of unity which simply does not exist.
It is a long, long list indeed. And Carter’s and Albright’s appearances in North Korea were remarkable not only for what they said, but the timing as well. Twice a regime on the verge of collapse and they twice extended the tyrant one hand up and added a cushion to his throne with the other.
I think you’re thoughts on China’s relative strength, Rick, are probably right on, on the other hand you never know till you huff and puff and blow on it a little. And do so for an extended period of time. Say at least a decade. The other dynamic is that history of this sort has already been achieved and this time it is less making history, as was the case with the Soviet Union, and more the simpler act of merely mimicking it.
For those who agree w/ Yama that Unpresident Kerry is in itself a cause for optimism, read his latest howling windbaggery here. Doesn’t anybody *read* this stuff for him before they let him stand and emit?
And Carter’s and Albright’s appearances in North Korea were remarkable not only for what they said (and for) the timing, but for the dancing, as well. You haven’t forgotten, have you, Yama?
I can’t believe that I wrote deplenished for depleted. Preeviw strikes again.
Ten years may be all that it takes but fifteen or twenty may be more likely. If we consider the fall of the Berlin Wall in ’89 to be the curtain dropping on Act I and the fall of the Twin Towers in ’01 to be the curtain dropping on Act II then 10 years would provide approximate symmetry.
The Left (EUnuchs/UNuchs/MSM/DNC) worked very hard throughout the ’90′s to disguise the failing of the Hegelian based system and they have redoubled their efforts since ’00. Selling the DNC to the Soros/Bing/Lewis Billionaire Boys Club in the States while turning over Canada and the EU to PowerCo/Total hasn’t repaired the crack in the dam to date. They haven’t quit yet either. I will feel a bit more comfortable when the NY Sun circulation reaches 500,000 and is equal to the NYT.
It may well be that Don Kofi’s grip on the door jamb should be encouraged rather than discouraged for the moment. Having him twist in the wind while the Secretariat empties out beneath him provides a modicum of entertainment.
I really hope that the Congressional hearings come about in the House rather than the Senate. Watching the World’s Greatest Bloviators in action recently has not been a heartening experience. Perhaps the House will perform better. Certainly, discipline has more of a meaning in the House than it does in the Senate.
Charlotte,
Forget? Not I. Just thought children might be reading this blog and I didn’t want to present an image that could scar them for life. On the other hand, maybe the children should be presented these images. Like a Just say No to drugs Campaign. “This is a mass-murdering tyrant and this is an American government official being used for propaganda films. Americans don’t let Americans kiss tyrants butts. Just say no to the Albright Group.” Something like that. Yes, yes the dancing and the hugging and the aww jeez it’s great to see you Dear Leader back slapping, and toasting, and bowing, and who knows what else happened. You spend forty years pumping Voice of America into North Korea and one visit by Carter lets those fighting for freedom understand where they stand. Alone.
Mr. Davis:
I don’t think anyone is stating that it is OK to rewrite history. It is the nerve of the Chinese government in doing the scolding. Their history books are outright fiction, their countries idol, Mao, is on par with the evil of the imperialistic Japanese governments of the ’30′s. This is like a pimp scolding his employee’s on chastity. It doesn’t pass the giggle test.
Kevin P,
I will echo your well-stated point. I too have problems with some of the textbooks in question, but at least in Japan we are debating them, and schools are free to choose other textbooks, as over 99% do, and freedom and the rule of law are being practiced here with a great deal of seriousness and enthusiasm. The textbook situation, like the political situation, in China is by orders of magnitude more odious. After Tiananman Square the patriotic education of the subjects was undertaken with great fervor, which is all code for anti-Japanese proganda and white-washing of history (both internal and external) by the CCP, as a means to maintain power. One striking thing about the demonstrations was the lack of participation by those who actually experienced being occupied by Japanese forces. It was a mostly post-Tiananman educated bunch (of fools). Another point, the usual suspects on the left in the West, especially in the Universities, whether knowingly or not, have jumped on the post-Tiananman propaganda initiative with great enthusiasm. (More lovely files, like the downfall of the Soviet Union, to go through in the future.) And if we need proof that China is in trouble these days, France is becoming its best ally, engaging in joint military exercises and supporting the recently passed (2,800 and so votes to none, with two absentions (if memory serves)) law against Taiwan’s seccession–In other words, the right to attack Taiwan law.
Before someone rightfully states that those who directly experienced the occupation by Japanese forces are aged and unlikely to be up for protesting, then what about their children? It was a very, very young group. A group that has not experienced the horrors of the cultural revolution and the great leap forward and all the rest.
I agree, Kevin…Tojo and Hitler managed to get their nations leveled, PTC got away with Mao free and clear, insofar as world opprobrium and flattened cities. Let’s hear something about the 50-70s aggressions all over SE Asia, eh? But, seeing as how Japan, PRC, and USA are all each other’s major trading partners, I don’t see this going hot…tho I do expect more advantage-seeking cold. PRC’s biggest problem right now may be G-7 calling more a Yuan float. PRC is probably right that the current PRC-induced case of nerves will table that Yuan motion. They’ve used the ‘are they nutz?’ tactic before, acting deliberately crazy during the Korean War peace talks (remember “capitalist running dogs”?). It worked, too. Ask Douglas MacArthur.
Yama, Carter did the same thing in Venezuela recently, taking the wind out of the Ven. Constitutionalists who were–up to Carters’s declaring otherwise–proving a stolen election. Now we have an active enemy in Chavez who just bought $120mm in Russian weaponry and is saber-rattling toward Colombia in order to twist his dictatorship into safety from any further constitutional difficulties–including elections. Carter enjoyed a “feel-Good” weekend in Caracas, and the world for a generation or two gets to pay for it. Right in the Panama Canal area, where thanks to Carter we will have yet another geopolitical problem if PRC goes aggressive with their new Canal Zone management contracts. Carter gave the Canal away to make nice with the Sandinista Movement, a ploy which of course backfired and merely invigorated the sandies, who continued to flourish until Reagan replaced Carter and started fighting back.
Rick, when raggin’ ole Hegel, don’t forget Max “value-judgement” Weber’s addition to the lexicon; it seemed so right to say that all values were judgements–how could we know it would cost us the meaning of “meaning” (heh heh–to spring a little of that back at Mr Weber)?
Buddy,
If Hegel is sufficiently flogged (using a Benthamite utilitarian whip, when possible) then Weber screams in agony. JS Mill whimpers with each stroke, too. All part and parcel to pointing out how badly the emperors butt sags in his brand new clothes.
Everyone:
The other point that Mr. davis is ignoring is the fact that the protests were government sanctioned and thus a provocitive act. Check out China’s and North Korea’s history treatment of the Korean War. Pure lies. Would Mr. Davis be ok with President Bush turning a blind eye and giving Korea war vets and their families the high sign to go bust up Chinese embassies and places of buisness. I doubt it. It is a constant amazement how many on the left just ignore the fact of the total evil of communism and their history of murder. They focus on all of the evils of the Democratic countries of the world and rationalize and ignore the acts of fascist and communist police states. Should the japenese public learn about the comfort women and the rape of Nanking. Of course. And they will. If they don’t get it in their history books they will get it in the private media that is allowed in Japan and is not in China. I guarantee you that the citizens of Japan have a far more accurate view of history then the Chinese who live in a police state. I wouldn’t mind the reports on the Chinese protests if they pointed out everytime that the Chinese have fiction for history and no right of free speech. They focus in how bad the Japanese government is while presenting the Chinese government as an agrieved party that has far more apologies that are due to the world and to their citizens then do the Japanese. When the Chinese begin teaching the truth about that butcher Mao I might take their complaints about Japan more seriously.
Footnote to Kevin, USA lost approx 90K KIA in Korea & Vietnam, both wars of which PRC was an aggressor enemy. USA KIA against Tojo in WWII less than 55K Navy & Marine. I can’t find good US Army Pacific KIA stats but will bet the total US KIA/WWII/Pacific is less than or near equal to that 90K KIA against NKorea, NVietnam, & PRC. However USA had helped China enormously in WWII, and less than 5 years later got the Korean War as a thank you. Not to flog PRC, but merely to add facts to the picture before us.
I just amazes me that the Chinese wanted to emulate western communists in the first place.
My father and uncle fought in the south Pacific in WW2 and the Japanese were considered a formidable enemy with a sense of honor.
I can not say that for the Chinese communists who killed tens of millions of their own.
I think this latest craziness from China has more to do with Taiwan and North Korea than it does with Nanking.
I read that the growth rate in China was 9.5% last year. That will be hard to maintain. If it slows down the price of oil will fall and the looming problems that a booming economy have been masking in China may become more evident. If our economy slows, so will theirs.
I suppose a lot of people have things to apologize for from that awful time, but the people that are around today were not the people who made those decisions and many of the people who did make those decisions paid in their own time. It is one thing to learn from the past it is another to ask people who were not even alive back then to apologize for it.
Mr. Davis is ignoring nothing and his comment sugested others do the same.
This latest craziness from China has to do with the sides that are being chosen up for the new teams. Japan appears to be emerging from its 60 years of isolationism to play with the U. S. as a primary regional ally against China. China is cleverly, not crazily, reminding every Asian country Japan ran roughshod over of the lovely era of the Co-Prosperity Sphere. For domestic purposes Japan has put its atrocities into the memory hole. It makes the necessary verbal and financial apologies internationally as required, but it has never dealt forthrightly with its history as has Germany. This must leave a question in the mind of potential allies as to whether they have really changed. Every country in Asia overrun by the Japanese now watching them remilitarize must be questioning the wisdom of inviting them back versus siding with the Chinese or finding some middle way that invariably means being caught in the middle. Truly unpleasant alternatives.
My point was that to ignore Japan’s weakness just because it is eclipsed by the barbarity with which China conducts its internal affairs is not in our own self-interest nor is it likely to make constructing the necessary regional alliance easier.
Terrye:
Premier Koizumi repeated Prime Minister Murayama 1995 apology yesterday. I am not an expert but in Japanese culture apologies are not a common thing so when they are issued they mean something. The dispute was over a junior high textbook. History during the younger years often doesn’t include all of the horrors of any country, which is often introduced when the student has a better feel for historical perspective. Japan in no way is any way the Imperialistic country that it was in the early 20th century and China is far closer to that type of mentality then Japan is at this time. I wish Japan would drop the ultra pacifist stance that was a good idea after the war.
China has apologized for nothing. They are the country that is beefing up their offensive military capabilities. As bad as the government of Japan was during the thirties they have paid their dues. China is the country that will eventually invade Taiwan and the death and the re-education camps that will ensue will match anything that Japan did in the thirties. You are right, this is a smokescreen and what kills me is the western press falls for this crap and takes a holier then thou attitude towards Japan while ignoring China’s brutal past and their brutal future. The same complaint from South Korea I could understand, the balls that the Chinese and North Korean governments shows makes me want to vomit. Any western journalist that doesn’t ask China to apologize for their transgressions of the past and the present while scolding Japan is just acting as a PR flack for the butchers in Beijing.
The WWII Axis powers share a common trait in that fascism and mass communications arrive hand-in-hand during industrial booms. The common folk never had much of a chance, what with no civil disobedience or popular revolution in the national memories. ChiComs inside PRC are trying to revive racism as a glue for their own construct, and I think it stinks. If Japan demoralizes her 12 year olds with Nanking it won’t help them or anyone else–except perhaps her rivals. Japanese teens have always gotten the history, their 21st century government shouldn’t have to prostrate itself in atonement every time a rival demands it. There’s another thing: The world will have a global problem in the South China Sea unless we stand strong with our Pacific military alliance. One way to do that is to remind PRC that there are many other memories from the 20th century, why don’t we all apologize to everyone for everything? Hell, the 20th century dawned with Admiral Dewey himself very embarrassed that he’d killed so many Spaniards in Manila bay with almost no casualties to himself at all.
ìIf our economy slows, so will theirs.î
Terrye,
Nope, the way those numbers are generated they will be up there regardless of reality. They may even soar should we take a hit, just to prove that their economic system is better than ours. I am sure there are lots of CIA and economic analysts who are right now very busy writing reports on the superiority of Chinese economic model. Just like those guys who were assuring Americans in the early 80s that old Soviet Union is about to overtake the US economically. China will keep being poised to become the Next Great Economic Power, just up to the moment of their collapse.
Mr. Davis:
Well that could be said about many nations. So far as I know the British have never apologized for the deaths of thousands of American POWs on prison ships like the Jersey either.
Perhaps the question for the Japanese is also one of culture. That is, it might be considered an insult to their ancestors to portray them as evil.
The Germans were of a different culture and no one dropped an atomic weapon on them. I am making no excuses for anyone. I know an old man who survived a Japanese POW camp and needless to say he has the scars to this day. But I remember years ago reading that the Allies felt an occupation of Japan would be humiliation enough and their desire at that time was to rebuild the country, not get an apology.
But I will say that whatever apologies anyone might have gotten from the Germans since WW2, the Japanese have proven to be far better allies.
Katherine:
I know what you are saying but I think reality will have to impact sooner or later.
So far they have pegged their currency to ours but I have to wonder what will happen to their economy if the US stops buying all those cheap imports?
Öîwhat kills me is the western press falls for this crap and takes a holier then thou attitude towards Japan while ignoring China’s brutal past and their brutal future.î
Kevin, they donít ignore it, they all have ìFree Tibetî bumper stickers on their cars. What more a decent human being can do, I ask you?
Terrye,
Of course you are right, but, as Rickís said, they can play the game for some time still. So, their numbers will be fabulous in the near future even if the entire world goes into recession. After that, Iíd rather not think. I am not sure if we will be lucky enough to get the repeat of the Sovietís whimpering collapse.
As to stopping buying Chinese products, I donít think we can afford it, unless we find suitable replacement for the cheap labor (something not completely impossible, I guess). People want low prices, though sometime I wish they also demanded some level of quality to go with them.
Terrye,
Well said.
Mr. Davis,
While I appreciate your concerns, and we no doubt share similar views on a lot of things, I think statements like your “(f)or domestic purposes Japan has put its atrocities into the memory hole” and Japan “makes the necessary verbal and financial apologies internationally as required, but it has never dealt forthrightly with its history as has Germany” is just plain wrong. I wonder how such self-assured conclusions were begot. Your analysis reeks of gross stereotyping and over-simplification. Sorry to be so harsh. Learn the language, and then come visit the bookstores with me, listen to the debates going on in the media and at the universities and at the junior highs and high schools. You’re parroting a refrain that is more fiction than fact. And the “every country overrun by the Japanese…” bit is also well over the top…. You’d be surprised how many Asians are relieved Japan is finally filling a vacuum and making the U.S.-Japanese alliance something more than paper and wishful thinking. And surprise, surprise, many of those people are Chinese. Not only the Taiwanese but men and women from the mainland.
I’ll tell you some folks who are more pro-Japanese, and more appreciative of Japan under the direction of Koizumi than even I am: the hundreds of thousands awaiting death in North Korea’s concentration camps, not to mention the millions who have already been murdered. They, and the few who have escaped attest to this, are most appreciate of a leadership which understands the nature of tyranny and won’t appease it ( ahah!! proof Japan has learned more than Germany since WW2) and as such ticks of the CCP and tyrant Kim to no end. Sometimes being an object for tyranny’s wrath is proof, definitive proof, that the lessons from history have in fact been learned. I wish I could say the same for Germany’s Schroeder or the post world war 2 intellectual traditions in continental Europe.
If I may ask, what all this apologizing for the sins of previous generations is supposed to accomplish? There is probably not a single nation or ethnic group on this planet that did not oppress/enslave/exploited/committed atrocities against somebody else in the past. As I recall, Mr. Clinton spent a lot of time running around the world apologizing for American real and imaginary misdeeds and somehow I did not see that it made a slightest difference in how the America was perceived abroad. At best, it earned us contempt and condescension. At worst, it was perceived as fatal weakness. And being seen as a weak horse does have consequences.
It is one thing to acknowledge and analyze historical misdeeds in order to not to repeat them. Also, to put tyrants and their henchmen for trial, pay reparations to the aggrieved, express contrition, and in general try to right the wrongs. But really, should we hold grandchildren responsible for sins of their grandparents? Like Kevin, I find it particularity ironic that it is totalitarian China that demands apologies from democratic Japan and all the Western liberals applaud while completely ignoring Chinese past and present atrocities toward their own and foreign. The fact that most of these Westerners still consider Mao as a romantic revolutionary hero of the people may perhaps something to do with their attitude.
Katherine,
I really don’t know whether the PRC will fall today or in twenty years. Don’t know if it will be gentle or harsh either. I do believe that the ‘belief system’ of the worldwide MSM imputes a strength to China today that it does not possess. You know, far better than most who post here, how far a socialist government will go in disguising or manipulating capital and/or resource costs in order to maintain illusory pricing. The faux commie leadership of the PRC now controls over $600 billion in dollar denominated debt/assets wrung from the sweat of the proletariat through the imposition of said illusion.
It may be that the current sabre rattling is indicative of nothing more than a cover to move heavier concentrations of Mongolian troops into areas that are not returning sufficient tax levies to Beijing. The generals who run China’s southern coastal provinces may be taking more of a cut than Beijing is willing to allow. We really won’t know ’til the dust settles.
Yama, knowing some pro- (and anti-) Japanese Chinese, I am inclined to think you make a good case, though I’m just as ignorant as the rest of us on the internal Japanese debate. The problem with the Germans today in facing up to ethical realities is that they, and here I have a somewhat better vantage point, are often susceptible to delusionary combinations of guilt and victimary thinking re the WWII years. The pressure put on Queen Elizabeth to apologize for the Dresden bombing, the anti-Americanism and reviving anti-semitism, are the kinds of things I’m thinking about. What about such tendencies, or lack thereof, in Japan?
As for China, I want to hear more of your thinking on the China is a continent not a unified nation theme. If not a centralized agrarian-like empire, then what? How can the CHinese regions gain Taiwan-like identities? I would tend to argue that nationalism is a particularly western phenomenon, rooted in the Bible, and so it never takes strong hold outside the west. But, of course, the question is then what are we to make of countries/states like Japan or Korea. Are they the equivalent of a western nation or something sui generis?
Or, to take the question from another angle, how is it, for example, that Mandarin (Putonghua) can become the language of education throughout China without a serious revolt from the regions (from, say, Cantonese speakers), as far as I can see? To a western mind, this seems odd, but to the CHinese, from many regions, this is not the case. It’s just a practical question that people should be able to talk to each other in a common language; there does not seem to be a lot of fear of local dialects disappearing. Is this a sign that the people have indeed become somewhat enamored of Chinese nationalism, or of the evident lack of nationalisms on that continent? But if the latter, how will the regional players come to understand themselves and organize any political decentralization on the continent?
Another fan of your thoughts,
“Never apologize. Never explain.”
Some time back I read a research paper regarding the decline in female infant mortality in China. While the study found that fewer female infants were abandoned to die, it could not conclude that this resulted from any enlightened thinking on the part of the Chinese, but rather to the increased availability of amniocentesis. It seems even doctors in dusty little backwater towns could produce the equipment necessary for performing this test. Women were abandoning their female babies in fewer numbers because they were aborting them instead.
Over the Chinese population as a whole in the age group 0-14, the ratio of male to female is 113:100. The gap widens as the age lowers. This is a terrible trend, perhaps even a disaster in the making. Society can function quite well with even a surfeit of spinsters; large herds of untethered males is quite another story.
I’d heard about the government’s demographic mess-up…but had no idea it was that bad…gosh, demographics a point or two out of balance can/do change their societies. This number is stupifying.
Mr.Davis:
I an not an apologist for the crimes of the war Government of Japan. But this international self rightous flogging of Japan over a junior high text book is absurd. China complains that Japan is not sufficiently humble about their war crimes while at the same time repeating their outright lies about Mao from kindegarden to college. Which country murdered the most asians in the 20th century? China. And they have the nerve to scold Japan who has apologized while they have never apologized or owned up to the truth about their government. Does Japan have the ability to repeat the crimes of the 30′s? No. Who does? China. Which country is building up their offensive capabilities in the Asian sector? China. But we have to listen to “Oh, Japan must grovel every year because we are still so afraid of what they did.” Japan has an open society so the truth about the war will be available to any Japanese citizen and according to Yama it is going on dailey. Can China say the same thing. No, they repress any access to open debate and they flood their citizens minds with the propaganda that makes Japans textbooks look like the Word of God. Within 10 years Japan will not have the ability to fend of a Chinese attempt on their homelands. Since the end of the war which country in the Asian area has been the most militarily aggressive in the region? China. Ask India, South Korea, Vietnam,and Tibet. Japan has progressed and does not have to live in guilt over their terrible errors. While not perfect, Japan has been a credit to the world community since the war ended. China has to face it’s past before it can demand countries that have examined theirs to do it some more. This recent mugging is an effort to slap Japan around and give them a reminder that if they don’t mind their manners China will put them down. This is the act of a bully that is far closer to the style of imperialist Japan then Japan is at this moment.
truepeers,
Very good questions. At this time I usually introduce someone smart to fill in all the details, and have my argument made for me, while I nod on the side approvingly pretending the knowledge is mine, but unfortunately such can’t be the case this time. I’d try to answer you now, but it’s Sunday morning and I’m out the door for a rendezvous in Shiga, running late as usual, and when I finally relieve you of any misguided notions about me, I want to make sure it is an honest effort of more than thirty seconds, though not more than five minutes. I’ll try to get back to you later tonight or tomorrow morning. I promise it will be a brief and thoroughly problematic, but well-intentioned, reply. Cheers.
Yama (9:15 a.m. by my clock)
p.s. Kudos to all, very informative posts I must say. The biggest thanks to Roger of course, it is his hospitality we are enjoying.
Kevin, If you think I am about to defend China, you have failed to understand anything I have written. If you think that China will be able to make an attempt on the Japanese home islands within 10 years, you give the Chinese far more credit than they deserve and the Japanese far less.
Yama, I absolutely do not speak Japanese, and would be interested to hear more about how their atrocities in WWII are dealt with at the level of the general populace as well as academic specialists. I have not read everything, but have never read anything that indicates they are dealing with it forthrightly and much that indicates they do not confront the reality of the war, such as this. The Rape of Nanjing makes anything the German Army did, even on the Eastern Front, pale by comparison. Do the Japanese plan a museum to memorialize it? Or the Bataan Death March? Or their treatment of POWs?
Buddy, these are CIA numbers, so you know…
However, all other census reports I’ve seen say about the same thing. In 2004 the ratio for all age groups was 106:100. Bad trend; very bad trend.
Yama, I hope you enjoy your day out and don’t hurry back. Please consider my questions fodder for an ongoing discussion to which we can return on future posts. Nationalism can be a tough thing to identify in relation to other forms of patriotism and ethnic assertion. But I would say a nationality is something that transcends the ethnic identification of a people and culture belonging to and existing in a specific place. In contrast, the national culture can well survive outside its homeland.
ONe clue to the beginnings of a nationalism’s emergence in places where it has not yet been present, may be anti- or philo-semitism. One takes as one’s model, for better or worse, the first nation. I was curious to read some time ago, and maybe it was here at Roger’s, about the city of Harbin trying to attract Jewish immigrants. A sign of CHinese nationalism in Manchuria?
I wonder if Europe will ever really deal with its anti Semitism? I don’t mean the holocaust. I mean the centuries old time honored we don’t care if they did go back to the Middle East we are still going to track them down and hound them and justify killing and terrorizing them kind of anti semitism.
And then there is the self pity of the entire Muslim concerning the Crusades. How many Christians were slaughtered and enslaved, how many communities were completely destroyed? And…truth be told if not for the Crusades would there even be a Europe or a place called the Vatican today? But just try doing anything other than apologizing to a Muslim in regards to this particular subject…and yet were there any Americans in the Crusades??
There are all kinds of people who do not openly deal with past sins. At least if someone points out to the Japanese that the conscripts in the Emporer’s military were known to behave badly they don’t respond by threatening to blow them up or by calling them a Zionist and wishing them and their families dead.
So maybe we should keep this all in perspective.
Mr. Davis:
I am not saying that I would pick that junior high textbook as the definitive or even reasobnable explanation of Japans action in China and Korea. It is the tendency to make this a big story while ignoring the bigger story in China. It is like focusing on Japans dandruff while ignoring China’s skin cancer. I find the state sanctioned rioting more offensive then Japans textbooks. In reading the coverage of this story the riots have been excused as rightous anger. Well I am sorry but China has no right to act self rightous after acting like a criminal these past 50 years. The stories write about the complaints about the visits to the gravesites while China has had a giant portrait of one of the greatest mass murderers of the last century hanging in their greatest place of honor and they say nothing. South Korea has complained about Japan over the last decade and I think they have the moral right to do so. China doesn’t. Roger wasn’t trying to make excuses for Japan. He was pointing out China’s fascist style bullying and hypocrasy.
My dad was a bomber pilot, shot down in Feb ’44 and spent 15 months in a POW camp. He talked about the experience if he was asked–nothing that he couldn’t bear to remember…but strange thing, he never had a harsh word for the enemy troops. Didn’t care for their leaders though.
On this issue my sympathies are with the Chinese, if not their leaders.
I worked with and then was a friend to a man who had been a Marine in the ’40s. He was stationed in Northern China after the war. It was there that he formed an abiding and undiminished dislike for the Japanese and everything having to do with them. He never forgot and he never forgave.
I greatly respected this man and I never knew him to hold especially strong negative views regarding anything else.
I know I’m coming late to this party, but a couple of comments.
Terrye,
Toynbee characterized the history of the Twentieth Century as being the history of cultures all over the world seeking to come to grips with the onslaught of Western Culture. Communism, a quintessential Western idea after all, was an essential ingredient in this process for many of them. It functioned as a sort of innoculation, the way a dead virus can train your immune system to keep out the real thing. That’s one explanaion for why both Russian and China became communist.
Rick and Katharine,
China is no longer communist, at least not economically. The word “communist” means of course a multiplicity of things, but the economic state system we all know and love from Eastern Europe is not what is going on in China, not in the least. There was an interesting article in The Economist a couple of weeks ago comparing China to India. One point it explicitly made was how quickly everything is being changed in China from even a few years ago and how quickly the country is becoming modernized. This isn’t being done by religious belief nor by guns-to-the-head in the form of “communism”, but by people who are eager to get rich quick and are succeeding. Succeeding mightily. The 9+ %-age economic growth rates in China are very real. So is the growth of their military power. An endless supply of soldiers outfitted by the most modern equipment France can provide.
Yama,
I’m pretty skeptical of the China-EU comparison. Europe hasn’t been unified since the Roman Empire. In fact, there was a remarkable parallel of history between Europe and China for a very long time. Had Charlemagne succeeded in really making a new Roman Empire then that parallel would have continued. The unifying effort in Europe seems to have fallen on the rocks of nationalism in a way that never occurred in China. One can wonder why; my personal theory is the existence of the Chinese writing system as a unifying system. My belief is that language is the true unifier. If Quebec spoke English, splitting from Canada would be out of the question. I expect China to continue its economic growth and its whitewashing of history into the indefinite future. I expect war to be inevitable, and I expect China to win. Didn’t the theory that countries that have massive trade with each other won’t go to war with each other end with the outbreak of WWI?
Patrick,
I might venture to suggest that if your sympathies truly lie with the Chinese people, then you should condemn both the Japanese of WWII vintage and, a fortiori, the current Chinese government and Chinese Commmunist Party.
Wichita Boy—
I might venture to suggest that if your sympathies truly lie with the Chinese people, then you should condemn both the Japanese of WWII vintage and, a fortiori, the current Chinese government and Chinese Commmunist Party.
My comment begins with three words. See them or ignore them, they’re there.
Let me try and sneak this in while no one is watching.
I’m not sure if Wichita Boy gets the gist of my China-Eu “comparison.” In fact it wasn’t a comparison at all. If it were I’d be just as skeptical as W.B.. It did leave open the possibility, and maybe I should have made the sense of “possibility” stronger, that China and the EU could very well become, in the future, two things comparable. I also think you overrate Kanji as a unifying system. The last time I checked most of Europe was using an alphabet (alpha-beta) based on roman letters. Your conclusion about how all this may develop, I dare not say “end up” for I don’t think history ends, seems perfectly reasonable to me.
Since Mr.Davis must get his information second, third, and fourth hand I would only suggest that he pay very close attention to the mediators of that information. I take him at his word that he is not defending the present regime in “China,” but a good many who do, stand between you and a less caricatured depiction of Japan today, and they have been working overtime since Tiananman Square.
I take great exception to the oft-stated thought that somehow Germany has done a better job dealing with its past than Japan. The German’s have done a good job making sure they are seen as having done a good job, but seeming and doing/being are two very different animals. I’m not sure hundreds of thousands marching in the streets chanting Bush=Hitler and millions and millions of others nodding at home yes, yes, really get it. As truepeers points out this kind of fundamental conclusion drawn from a grief/we are victims too combination is pathological to my way of thinking, and I much prefer the sorrow/remorse as a foundation for the actual defense of values (liberty, law, democracy) now and in the future (as proof in deed that the lessons of history have been learned) which is the Japanese model coming under so much fire these days. I might add that the grief/we too are victims is actually the dominant force in Japan and the dirty lens through which the other pedagogy is caricatured. Those same junior high textbooks whose passages are taken out of context, and used without any consideration of how those passages are used as the basis for conversation in classes that are certainly open to additional materials and include all the give and take one should expect in free societies, also contain the real seeds for China’s and North Korea’s and the “sunshine policy” part of South Korea’s wrath, namely, they do an admirable job of making the case that liberal democracy must be defended and that such a defense properly entails skepticism about “world governments” (UN), the appeasement of tyrants, pacifism and all the rest.
My take that “China” is a continent and not a country, or that it can’t continue as it is, and will eventually break-up into smaller units, though it might become larger first (a la Wichita Boy’s thesis) is a lesson the “Chinese” I meet are keen to impress upon me time and time again. It is not a thought taken from theory, but from the lips of men and women actually working in history. I’ve been convinced, and I think that because they are literally willing to risk life and limb makes theoretical arguments somewhat moot. I think China, throughout history, has been in constant flux between city, nation-state, empire and that such an ebb and flow will continue and the problem of history has not been solved here. My understanding is that Taiwan is not an outlier.
As for language and creeping conformism, yes, I would be the last to argue that the communist party has not been successful and that the brutal murder of tens of millions and the constant propaganda has not created lasting results, but the surface is just that–surface. That there hasn’t been revolt is far from being able to say there won’t be, or that what underlies the seeds, and the seeds as well, for such action have been wiped out. I imagine if I really started to think about these things I would say there is something natural going on. The natural can be kicked out the front door, and the door locked, but it will find a window open somewhere to get back in. What is dormant in “China,” and again I am only repeating what some well-meaning Chinese are forever trying to impress upon me, is in fact strong. Stronger than the door. Stronger than the house that Marx/Mao built. Patience is a virtue. Sometimes a necessity. To sum, this is a very old game being played, and it is the same game, and it isn’t a game that will end.
Now that surely wasn’t satisfying at all. Especially to me. But my five minutes are up.
Another voice into the mix: link
Great link…the good professor sees the issue as most of the commenters here see it. Really, from every angle. Good.
Yama,
Sorry your not satisfied. I am. Thanks.
Wichita Boy:
I do not know if there will be a war or not, but if the Chinese could not win a war with Japan 70 years ago I would not be so sure about what they can or will do so now. And now there is Taiwan.
I had a professor in Chinese history at IU many years ago, his name was Teng. He left China before the communists took over and so he was an old man when I was in his class. He said that the most enduring facet of the cultural revolution might well be the efforts on the part of the communists to bring a unified language to China.
He also said however, that the culture of the Chinese had survived many rulers and dynasties and was very resistant to political change. He saw the real difference to be between peasant and urban. He also said that without the creation of a middle class in China many aspects of that culture would not change no matter what the ruling elite did or said. He seemed to think of the communists as just another but especially cruel dynasty. Their only saving grace he said was that they were better at feeding people than their predecessors had been.
That was years ago and I have no idea what he would say today but I prefer to not think that war is inevitable. I thought that about the USSR and the US and look at how wrong I was.
Patrick:
The man I knew who survived the POW camp was not fond of the Japanese either, not one bit. But he thought McArthur and FDR were criminals as well. It is hard to argue with a man who suffered so much, so I don’t…. but I also have my doubts that FDR wanted him to be taken on a forced death march.
I think the point is that the Chinese who are going out in the government sponsored street demonstrations are not the people who suffered in China decades ago and the people they are demanding the apologies of are not the people who were responsible for the crimes.
My ancestors were both Indians and settlers. Should my pioneer part say I am sorry to my Indian part?
One moer thought on this and I promise I will leave it alone.
I had a teacher in high school, Mr. Manley, who had been in both a Japanese and a NK POW camp. He had joined the reserves and they called him back up for Korea.
He walked with a limp and one day some of us asked him if the limp was a war injury. He said he had been hobbled by the Communists. It seems he had tried to escape and so they crippled him. He felt he got off easy because his friend was forced to drink boiling water.
He did manage to escape later and was picked up by American forces after the treaty had been signed. He was worried because he had killed a communist soldier the day before his rescue when he did not know a truce had been reached. He was afraid that meant he was a murderer.
He also said the Chinese were as cruel as the Japanese and that made him angry because American soldiers had helped the Chinese in WW2.
so much cruelty.
Yama,
thanks for that. Now it’s my turn to go out and enjoy the day with my beloved. She is a Man-Chinese from Liaoning province and from a rather pro-Japanese family. I have never been able to ascertain whether this connection to Japan goes beyond the present generation’s experiences working in and visiting Japan, since my dear is blessedly free of my own absorption in history.
Terrye,
is one side of you supposed to feel sorry for the other? My own conclusion, coming to terms with my mother’s family history – once they were both German and Jewish, and this in my own strong living memories of my grandparents, though I don’t speak more than a few word of German; most of the family were murdered but my grandparents left to England before the war where my grandfather started to make a little fortune in manufacturing by making optical devices for British bombers, which no doubt helped kill many Germans – is that the only way for all of us to move forward is to move beyond the age of victimary thinking, which will entail we first of all work to understand rather than in indulge in this form of thinking.
Something–also from Australia– along several of the above lines of thinking (summary is sufficient for non ‘wave theorists’):
Buddy,
I too thought that was a very well written article. And a guy from Harvard at that. There is a hope.
Mr. Davis,
That was most kind and I don’t think we were ever arguing, but it is always pleasant to argue (if we were) with someone who shares the same goals and concerns.
Terrye,
Mr. Teng sounds like a professor to remember, fortunately you have, and looking back I think the language things is very important. But it is a double-edged sword. It might help forge new identities but it also allows people access to works of the mind not very supportive of a twentieth century social experiment based on loony think imported from Europe and lots of barbarity. As for war, though I pray it never comes to that, however I wouldn’t count the Japanese out. It is the Greek/Persia dynamic.
Truepeers,
That is an interesting history indeed. I think your thoughts on thinking about the past are right on, especially the part about spending liberal amounts of time with a beloved. Also thanks for letting me off the hook.
Did I miss anyone. Strange world it has become. Having conversations like this, spanning days and continents, and so civil. Even bringing in a pro (that Harvard guy) on a moments notice.
Now it is on to Buddy’s link……
Looking back over the thread maybe that Harvard guy is really Kevin P. ?
yama:
I think the world in general would be very mistaken to count the Japanese out.
I have lived long enough and have known enough different kinds of people to know that we all something back there we wish we could change. That is only human.
I think the thing that pisses me off about the Europeans is their arrogance in assuming that they are somehow above it all. I have never noticed that with Asians in general. Too intelligent and pragmatic for that.
Yama:
Thank you but the “Harvard Guy” was able to say what I posted with about half of Rogers bandwidth and with more style. But I will file your complement for the time that I need to feed my voracious ego. The tactic of using one countries historical failures to both beat the other country and to provide a smokescreen for ones own far worse crimes is a common trick for those who have read enough Lenin. Sadly the tendency of liberal western countries to swallow those critiques without pointing out the absurdity, in this case China lecturing anyone about the accuracy of their history textbooks, is also common.
This is a rough thread; it can’t have been pleasant for anyone, least of all Yama, who has more reason than most to be satisfied that the Tojo Gang went down and stays down. I’ve read plenty about WWII, and–as Victor Davis Hanson has said–that there are unanswerable questions take nothing away from either the bravery of common soldiers nor the incredible destruction they both create and prevent. The great site artsandlettersdaily.com carries this essay, which I do not recommend for the faint, and only link in order to add perspective to the topic.