Sacrificial Spokesman
Lieutenant Colonel Daniel Davis, an officer who “served in Operation Desert Storm, in Afghanistan in 2005-06 and in Iraq in 2008-09″ and “legislative correspondent for defense and foreign affairs for Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison, R-Texas”, recently concluded, after spending a year in Afghanistan gathering data for a report on equipment, that the whole operation had become a fraud.
He echoed the assessment of Anthony Cordesman’s conclusion that the war was being reported to fit a political template, while in the meantime doing little or nothing to achieve any tangible goal. Cordesman wrote, “Since June 2010, the unclassified reporting the U.S. does provide has steadily shrunk in content, effectively ‘spinning’ the road to victory by eliminating content that illustrates the full scale of the challenges ahead. They also, however, were driven by political decisions to ignore or understate Taliban and insurgent gains from 2002 to 2009, to ignore the problems caused by weak and corrupt Afghan governance, to understate the risks posed by sanctuaries in Pakistan, and to ‘spin’ the value of tactical ISAF victories while ignoring the steady growth of Taliban influence and control.”
The reason why the Army gone along, according to Davis, is to defend its turf and programs. In other words, it has kept quiet to get money.
I first encountered senior-level equivocation during a 1997 division-level “experiment” that turned out to be far more setpiece than experiment. Over dinner at Fort Hood, Texas, Training and Doctrine Command leaders told me that the Advanced Warfighter Experiment (AWE) had shown that a “digital division” with fewer troops and more gear could be far more effective than current divisions. The next day, our congressional staff delegation observed the demonstration firsthand, and it didn’t take long to realize there was little substance to the claims. Virtually no legitimate experimentation was actually conducted. All parameters were carefully scripted. All events had a preordained sequence and outcome. The AWE was simply an expensive show, couched in the language of scientific experimentation and presented in glowing press releases and public statements, intended to persuade Congress to fund the Army’s preference. Citing the AWE’s “results,” Army leaders proceeded to eliminate one maneuver company per combat battalion. But the loss of fighting systems was never offset by a commensurate rise in killing capability.
A combination of military compliance and corrupt politics has led to a situation in which the Taliban are captured only to be released, an Afghan Army which pretends of fight and American lives and treasure wasted in strategies and efforts that are known to be useless.
The Australian Broadcasting Corporation says “shared his pessimistic view with some members of Congress and written a classified version of his article for the Defense Department, a highly unusual move that he expects will anger his commanders and short-circuit his professional career.” The NYT writes,
He briefed four members of Congress and a dozen staff members, spoke with a reporter for The New York Times, sent his reports to the Defense Department’s inspector general — and only then informed his chain of command that he had done so. …
“I’m going to get nuked,” he said in an interview last month.
But his bosses’ initial response has been restrained. They told him that while they disagreed with him, he would not face “adverse action,” he said.
But the NYT soft-pedaled the core of Davis’ allegation: that the present administration has been fighting a PR campaign disguised as a war and using lives to pay for it, suggesting that senior Democrats have been thinking the same thing all along and that — just maybe — Davis is over-wrought.
Senator Jeff Merkley, Democrat of Oregon, one of four senators who met with Colonel Davis despite what he called “a lot of resistance from the Pentagon,” said the colonel was a valuable witness because his extensive travels and midlevel rank gave him access to a wide range of soldiers.
Moreover, Colonel Davis’s doubts about reports of progress in the war are widely shared, if not usually voiced in public by officers on duty. Just last week, Senator Dianne Feinstein, Democrat of California and chairwoman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, said at a hearing that she was “concerned by what appears to be a disparity” between public testimony about progress in Afghanistan and “the bleaker description” in a classified National Intelligence Estimate produced in December, which was described in news reports as “sobering” and “dire.” …
Colonel Davis can come across as strident, labeling as lies what others might call wishful thinking. Matthew M. Aid, a historian who examines Afghanistan in his new book “Intel Wars,” says that while there is a “yawning gap” between Pentagon statements and intelligence assessments, “it’s oversimplified to say the top brass are out-and-out lying. They are just too close to the subject.”
But Martin L. Cook, who teaches military ethics at the Naval War College, says Colonel Davis has identified a hazard that is intrinsic to military culture, in which a can-do optimism can be at odds with the strictest candor when a mission is failing.
But Daniel Davis may also be that other thing common in military history: the designated spokesman for a widely felt grievance; the someone who is willing to take the heat to say what otherwise cannot be said. One almost senses that Davis’ report was prepared with the tacit support of others. Certainly Davis, who has been around politicians in an advisory capacity for long enough to know how the system works, must have intended his report for political effect. It is a curtain raiser on an as yet unannounced scene.
Since not a single high ranking Republican has as yet attempted to take up Davis’ report as a starting point there must be a widespread political feeling that the arena to whose floor Davis’ report opens is a dangerous one. Republicans have traditionally refrained from criticizing a war effort while operations are underway. Meanwhile the Democrats, who are much more comfortable criticizing wars, are now tongue-tied by the fact that their own leadership is in fact responsible for its prosecution of the war in Afghanistan. Barack Obama campaigned on making it the centerpiece of his new strategy. If now that strategy turns out to be nothing but air and spin paid for by blood, it would go hard on their party.
What is different about Davis’ accusation is that is not an argument that “the war is unwinnable” as much as that “the war was never intended to be won”.
It suggests that the key corruption is not that taking place within the Afghan government, though there is plenty enough of that, but in the moral corruption within the Pentagon, the Capitol and the White House. Even the admission of that corruption would be preferable to the explanation of malice; that the politicians have quit working for the American people and are now only employed on their own personal behalf and whoever is willing to pay them. If so, then Washington is a problem which has to be solved if the war — and any war fought in the national defense — is to be won or even undertaken, except in a purely shambolic sense.
None of this is to say that Daniel Davis is writing the Gospel Truth; but it is reasonable to assert that he raises a question which at least deserves some attention. The response in the next few days — if there is any — will be an interesting indicator of whether the issues Davis raises are up for discussion, or whether “the fix” is quite sadly the settled consensus within the political system.
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I found the NYT article to be very helpful.
From the NYT article: “But Martin L. Cook, who teaches military ethics at the Naval War College, says Colonel Davis has identified a hazard that is intrinsic to military culture, in which a can-do optimism can be at odds with the strictest candor when a mission is failing”.
I think that is a very important point. While there may be politically based pressure from on high for brigade, battalion and company commanders to report security and development success (or at least positive trends) in the provinces and districts in their areas of operation, such pressure is significantly facilitated by the “can-do” culture of the military. After all, a brigade combat team commander who concludes his deployment to Afghanistan with a report that security and Afghan government corruption and dysfunction in the province are now worse than when he arrived might not have good luck in the race to promotion to brigadier general.
“Shambolic” – We have a winner here.
This Can-Do optimism in the face of failure is a primary reason for military waste.
I have seen it up close, knowing the ex-military program managers that ‘know’ how to sell a program. No surprise here.
Well, all I can say is the Democrats wanted another Vietnam and by god, they produced one!
There’s not a single decision by this corrupt crowd that is not motivated either by partisan politics or to advance their fascist agenda-not one! As long as the “mainstream media” continues to blindly support them all the way to extinction, as they have in decades of deliberate omissions and commissions, they will not stop. The press has been, and still are, so deeply committed and entertwined with Barack Obama, (mmmm, mmmm, mmm),that they are “jammed up.” They have too much false pride and risk to admit their motives, so their best,(and only) option is to hunker down and ride it out until it becomes so completely apparent that even an idiot will be repulsed.
I keep seeing LTC Davis’ article pointed to as an example of something the Obama administration won’t want to see, something that the right might take up and use to criticize the president’s strategy.
What I don’t understand is why the president wouldn’t welcome and even encourage this kind of “dissent.” This is cover for him. He wants out ahead of schedule. Yes, he doubled down in Afghanistan. Does anyone think his heart was in it; that he did it because he was determined to win?
I think he didn’t want to be seen as the guy who threw away victory there. So he accepted the best advice of the best generals, and tried to map the Iraq surge onto Afghanistan. It hasn’t yielded the kind of obvious turnaround he recognized, but never admitted, in Iraq.
So he wants out. I don’t mean to suggest he or his backers instigated LTC Davis’ broadside, but why wouldn’t they seize at it? At this; at every report of an Afghan soldier shooting a NATO soldier; at every human-interest story of Taliban barbarism in places where we’re supposed to have sway.
I think he’d like to tie all of this together and say, Look, I ordered a surge because I accepted the best advice of my generals. The troops did all that could reasonably be expected of them. [Insert blame for predecessor, failure baked in the cake, took our eye off the ball with Iraq, etc.] But the situation is not improving, and sticking to our original timeline won’t gain us anything. So I’m bringing our troops home ahead of schedule.
Cue praise from antiwar left for “ending the war,” and from those on the middle and the right who’ve long decided, To hell with the place. Not worth another dime or another American life.
I keep seeing LTC Davis’ article pointed to as an example of something the Obama administration won’t want to see, something that the right might take up and use to criticize the president.
What I don’t understand is why the president wouldn’t welcome and even encourage this kind of “dissent.” This is cover for him. He wants out ahead of schedule. Yes, he doubled down in Afghanistan. Does anyone think his heart was in it; that he did it because he was determined to win?
I don’t. I think he didn’t want to be seen as the guy who threw away victory there. So he accepted the best advice of the best generals, and tried to map the Iraq surge onto Afghanistan. And it hasn’t yielded the kind of obvious turnaround he recognized, but never admitted, in Iraq.
So he wants out. I don’t mean to suggest he or his backers instigated LTC Davis’ broadside, but why wouldn’t they seize at it? At this; at every report of an Afghan soldier shooting a NATO soldier; at every human-interest story of Taliban barbarism in places where we’re supposed to have sway.
I think he’d like to tie all of this together and say, Look, I ordered a surge because I accepted the best advice of my generals. The troops did all that could reasonably be expected of them. [Insert blame for predecessor, failure baked in the cake, took our eye off the ball with Iraq, etc.] But the situation is not improving, and sticking to our original timeline won’t gain us anything. So I’m bringing our troops home ahead of schedule.
Cue praise from antiwar left for “ending the war,” and from those in the middle and on the right who’ve decided, To hell with the place. Not worth another dime or another American life.
Max Boot at Commentary presents some prior writing by LTC Davis on Afghanistan to indicate that he was biased against the war before his deployment (http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2012/02/07/watch-sources-on-afghanistan/).
I still think Davis is at least 60% on target.
Nation-building in Afghanistan has never been possible. The place is a bottomless sink of corruption due to its pre-feudal social state. The only thing we can do is whack-a-mole indefinitely at a reasonable cost. Trying to do more is exhausting public patience prematurely.
The real problem lies in state support for terrorism, and that is rooted in Iran and Pakistan.
Stoich, when I suggested that Afghanistan had become a fool’s and that we should GFO, you responded to me with some colorful language. I don’t think that the Dems want another Vietnam but instead wanted to demonstrate that they had better policies than George Bush. In Afghanistan, there are no teaming masses yearning to be free, no tyrants oppressing a free people. Only a desolate landscape populated with desperate people. If I was for “nation building” I would still have to conclude that Afghanistan is a place, not a nation. The fact that being there puts us in contact with and reliance upon the Paki’s make it all the more untenable. I repeat; GFO now.
Welcome to Rhyming History Hour. Today’s episode: The Pentagon Papers!
I know we’re not supposed to compare Afghanistan to Vietnam. Unfortunately, it looks like Afghan IS Vietnam.
I mean, I remember this weird little war back in 2001 CIA agents and Special Forces guys were riding through the desert on horses, helping native Afghans drive the Taliban out of Kandahar, calling in airstrikes and generally acting like badasses. I thought this war was going to be different. Then it all changed. The Regular Army and the Marines showed up, establishing supply depots and fire bases, trying to control the countryside, winning hearts and minds, hunting guerillas through hostile wilderness, getting ambushed and killed by an enemy that had the tacit or active support of the peasantry and assistance from at least one advanced technical power and safe haven in a neighboring country that was off limits to our forces. Apart from limiting the number of troops over there (only because we don’t have the draft anymore), what have we done in Afghanistan that we did not do in Vietnam?
Sto mui delem v Afghanistane?
MH @ 7: I think Max Boot is badly mistaken in his reading of Davis:
As an alternative he suggested “that sometimes the most appropriate and effective military strategy the U.S. could pursue is to reject combat.” In other words, Davis was already predisposed to think the buildup of forces in Afghanistan was futile; it is hardly surprising what he saw merely reinforced his preconceptions.
I forget the new terms of art used for Petraeus’ deployment of troops and ROE (COIN), but Davis can simply be supporting that and not asking for more of the same. Old school Pentagon always wants bigger footprint, we know that.
I used to like Max Boot, but about the time he left WSJ, his writing also changed.
–
wretchard: What is different about Davis’ accusation is that is not an argument that “the war is unwinnable” as much as that “the war was never intended to be won”.
Well, we know that Obambus eschews “victory” as a term and as a reality, but I don’t think that’s the real weight of Davis’ article. That everyone on the ground must know the situation is hopeless,* or should if they ever engaged in anything beyond “yessir!”, is a moral and ethical cesspool, that we would throw blood and treasure down such a rathole, that we are that dysfunctional, that our own citizens in their zeal to serve, would be so abused. Whether the war can or should be won is perhaps a geopolitical question that can be debated for ten centuries after it’s all over, but to waste lives in exercises that are guaranteed pointless in a horizon of HOURS, is a true horror – from which I daresay no good geopolitical results could EVER come, trumping the “larger” issues.
*hopeless as done, not necessarily hopeless with other leadership and guidelines.
My own opinion, which is not based on any special expertise or inside knowledge, is that Afghanistan’s strategic potential is limited. I have always thought that, and wrote in the Ten Ships (May, 2010) that:
It’s not the military that “can’t do”, that is the wrong way to put it. The problem is that the strategy that is misdirected; framed in a completely erroneous way. The formulation of that strategy is primarily a civilian and political function and is in a sense “above the military’s pay grade”. So the failure is primarily political.
However, the military ought to have some way of signaling that strategy is misdirected. They owe it to the men. Normally this is done via the chain of command up through civilians. But where that fails, journalism should take up the slack.
Whether or not Max Boot or Davis is right is in a way unanswerable without defining the scope of the Afghan mission. I think that as a main effort, it has to be wrong. As an economy of force effort it might succeed, since the wellsprings that feed it, in particular Pakistan and the backers in the Iran and the Middle East, will be throttled. But to leave the wellsprings alone and try to fix things locally it seems to me is the wrong way to go about things.
“This Can-Do optimism in the face of failure is a primary reason for military waste.”
And extraordinary effort and accomplishment of the seeming impossible. You can’t get rid of can-do and replace it with dispassionate analysis, it’s what makes a soldier win.
After all, the Taliban has now tried to retake Afghanistan for almost a decade, against a force backed by firepower they can scarcely comprehend. But they don’t let a rational measurement of force levels distract them.
Maybe wars are lost by whichever side gets logical first.
11. Viktor (Not That Victor)
Nichevo
The more things change…If you get the opportunity, read the book “Soldier” by Anthony B. Herbert, LTC (ret.). It is his account of being railroaded out of the US Army after butting heads with the “IBM” corporate mindset of the Army in Viet Nam. My hardcover copy has a photo of a sprawling HQ compound that Herbert contended was supposeded to be operated out of the back of a truck.
I bet the Roman legions had the same problem. Marching through the forest to conquer the Gauls is one thing. Being stationed on Hadrian’s Wall for a generation is something else.
I take issue with Annoy’s image of “no teeming masses yearning to be free.” The inevitable reestablishment of the Taliban will bring back the same tyranny they were responsible for 11 years ago. The sad thing about this is that the most powerless people in Afghan culture will once again bear the brunt of a mediaeval theocracy.
You may be able to convince me that there’s nothing that can be done to prevent that, but at least we should have the decency to feel BAD about it.
“Stoich, when I suggested that Afghanistan had become a fool’s and that we should GFO, you responded to me with some colorful language.”
Do you have me confused with someone else? I’m confused a lot and maybe it’s contagious. My position on the ‘stan has been that is should be a free fire zone, a kill box if you will. That the USA has Waaaay too many troops there and the wrong kind of troops. That we should not be nation building but weapons testing. Afghanistan will never be a nation but it makes an excellent live ordinance range.
Pull the US Army out and move in a Marine division. With attachments that is about 22,000 troops. ROE is kill it if it moves, blow it up if it doesn’t. Winning hearts and minds means two in the chest and one in the head.
Remind everybody that if war is their solution, we have all they want plus 10%. Make it so that 2 centuries from now, when somebody in Af-Pak says ‘Marine’, everybody in ear shot drops what they are doing and runs.
Being loved is OK but lip quivering, knee trembling, soil your pants fear is much much better.
Afghanistan is absolutely Obummer’s “Vietnam”. An unwinnable war with a hyper-restrictive ROE in finite territory is the textbook definition of Vietnam War. I’m going with the “Davis is the trial balloonist” meme. IMO he is carrying someone else’s water here.
“Stoich” is spot on. Either do it or leave. Tickling an enemy till he gives up is a kids game; ie infantile mindsets are more of a progressive thing than making real life decisions. The only thing I would add is to authorize those Marines of stoicheion’s a 50 mile deep free fire zone into Pakistan, too, in the event they even suspected they needed to clean out nearby vipers’ nests.
16. Idaho Spudboy
Except that Herbert was a pathological liar whose book is filled with proven falsehoods, misrepresentations, and unverifiable assertions.
There were those who maintained that keeping a small COIN force in Afghanistan was to be the way to go since it would be risky and expensive to get supplies into that land locked pit of feuding tribes to support a force big enough to lock the place down for any length of time to make a difference, say a century or so. Also it now seems that the real problem countries are Pakistan, Iran, and Soddie. A force in Iraq had a strategic position bordering a number of troublesome countries, it also had flat terrain suitable to fast movement, and a sea coast with ports for supply. So what is the administration doing. Leaving Iraq, making faces at Iran, trying to get out of Afghanistan without anybody noticing the Pushtans will take it over again with the compliance of the Paks. Meanwhile the Sunni Gulf States are forming an alliance that I expect to go nuclear…..Joy, Joy, Happy, Happy.
The response in the next few days — if there is any — will be an interesting indicator of whether the issues Davis raises are up for discussion, or whether “the fix” is quite sadly the settled consensus within the political system.
…………….
I lived in DC metro in much of the Viet Nam years. My dad was in the Pentagon then. It was a no fun time to be in the military. Similar issues then as now.
imho throttling Iran is more important than killing Taliban since the Taliban are just proxies for the ISI. The proper way to deal with the ISI is deal with them as a business concern — since they are principally a business concern. The way you deal with a business concern is to throttle their business–not give them business.
Strategically, right now with regards to the middle east–the most important thing for the USA and the rest of the world is to become energy independent. As a consequence of fracking–the USA is now on the way to do that in +-minus 10 years (depending on who is in the whitehouse) In doing so the USA will lead much of the rest of the world out of energy dependence on the middle east.
The fracking revolution is so profound that it has even got Obama’s attention and caused him to brag about it in his state of the Union speech. (I believe that fracking has put the middle east war into a new perspective by heads of state around the world and caused them to say the sort of things to Obama that led him to claim in the state of the union address that the “USA remains the essential country.”)
Afghanistan is much like South Viet Nam, a tactical defeat in the context of a strategic victory. In the context of south east asia, Lee Kuan Yew
who was an opponent of the US war in Viet Nam — later reflected that US efforts in Viet Nam bought time for Southeast Asian nations to modernize before the Chinese could get their act in gear.
Strategically, the US is shifting military attention toward China.
I think that the middle east wars will be seen as the way the USA bought time to get up to speed on energy independence–and by means of energy independence –achieve strategic victory in the middle east.
Anyhow that’s my WAG.
Danny Davis sings tenor with me at church. A fine tenor he is and a great guy to boot.
stoicheion @ 18 said:
“Pull the US Army out and move in a Marine division. With attachments that is about 22,000 troops. ROE is kill it if it moves, blow it up if it doesn’t. Winning hearts and minds means two in the chest and one in the head. Remind everybody that if war is their solution, we have all they want plus 10%. Make it so that 2 centuries from now, when somebody in Af-Pak says ‘Marine’, everybody in ear shot drops what they are doing and runs.”
Great plan but Obama will never do it. Obama is setting us up for a repeat of US helicopters fleeing Saigon with people clinging to the landing gear. The MSM will have an orgasm showing this disgrace (they’ll probably blame George W. Bush). Stoicheion’s solution is really the only viable option until the folks in Afghanistan realize that Islamic fascism is a bad idea.
War was once just politics
We fought by other means
But now a war is just a play
Put on with shifting scenes
Where actors stand in shadowed light
And say each scripted word
While knowing that the words are false
Yet going with the herd
We once had Democrats who felt
That winning wars was right
But that has changed with Dems today
Who vow they will not fight
For God and country any more
No matter right the cause
Unless a Democrat’s in charge
And then they’ll briefly pause
To say the war’s a holy war
The good war we must win
And then they do as Dems will do
Send men to die for spin
That shows the president is skilled
And pure in heart and wise
All while the lapdog MSM
Feeds us the same old lies
s @ 18: Pull the US Army out and move in a Marine division. With attachments that is about 22,000 troops. ROE is kill it if it moves, blow it up if it doesn’t. Winning hearts and minds means two in the chest and one in the head.
Remind everybody that if war is their solution, we have all they want plus 10%. Make it so that 2 centuries from now, when somebody in Af-Pak says ‘Marine’, everybody in ear shot drops what they are doing and runs.
Being loved is OK but lip quivering, knee trembling, soil your pants fear is much much better.
I’d be quite all right with that, but I’d really want to go further.
We can do better.
We can civilize them.
Start by banning Islam from the country.
Continue by creating American zones and colonies, tax-free.
All of Agfhanistan, plus a hundred-mile wide corridor down to the Bay of Bengal.
I support your ROE, but my way might save about half on expensive munitions, and even turn a profit.
Of course, it’s all a lovely fantasy when we can’t even ban Islam from the white house.
It really irks me to see even knowledgeable writers post as if the Pashtun and Taliban are medieval…
They’re not.
Their rules-set dates from the NEOLITHIC.
For that’s what’s embodied in Pashtunwali: the way-of-the-Pashtun.
Forget centuries — we’re millennia apart — as in 10,000 years.
——
Jane Goodall, hanging with her chimpanzees, once gifted them a hand of bananas.
Within seconds she transformed a peaceful troop into a riotous mob — so much so she feared for herself — and she wasn’t even interested in the hand.
——
This dynamic was repeated with the conquistadores. The hand of bananas was replaced by a pile of gold. All and every went crazy.
——
And this was repeated in the American Civil War. Mass looting of ‘free wealth’ triggered unrivaled lawlessness — whether it was Stuart having a good time in Northern Pennsylvania or Sherman gutting Atlanta to the sea.
——
With this in mind, we can see that bringing in lucre by the C-17 full — in a vain attempt to replicate the Marshall Plan ( nee Truman Plan ) is ENTIRELY counter productive.
There is not one soul in Afghanistan that believes in building up the capital of that zone. ( It’s not a country ) Instead, they all take the rational position: America go home — and take me with you.
——-
All of the bizarre attempts to replicate Europe in AfPak should’ve been abandoned ages ago. It is sterile ground.
——-
At all times the main enemy has been Islamabad. Both Pakistan and KSA are in slow motion civil wars. This conflict exists because they’ve both externalized their fighting — getting America to finance both sides at the same time.
And both are running Capone’s classic protection racket with D.C.
——-
We are in the nexus: from this point forth the islamists are going to lose momentum. It’s driving them frantic.
We’re still not withdrawing fast enough.
Since Afghanistan is a side show of a side show — all it needs is a Lawrence or two.
The rest should be permitted to stew in their solitude. Everyone will be much happier.
As for Pakistan: if you pay someone for acts of terror/ medieval warfare at its worst — you’ll get more of it.
All of Agfhanistan, plus a hundred-mile wide corridor down to the Bay of Bengal.
I hope you’re joshing me.
http://www.worldatlas.com/aatlas/infopage/bayben.gif
stoicheion @ 18 -”…we should not be nation building but weapons testing.”
I must have confused you with somebody else. I am on the same page as far as weapons testing is concerned. Nation building attacts the “mouse that roared”. Killing people and breaking things reminds the mice to keep their head down and to let sleeping giants lie.
cancel bay of bengal, meant Indian Ocean around Karachi.
what is that named?
the sump of bin Laden?
The real problem lies in state support for terrorism, and that is rooted in Iran and Pakistan. Tom Holsinger @ 8
Also Saudi Arabia, via (if nothing else) monetary support for the Wahhabist maddrassas.
Once upon a time we had a President who understood that state support for terrorism directed against us was a casus belli calling for the overthrow of that state structure. Once upon a time it was our official doctrine– until [sarcasm alert] wiser, more rational, and indubitably more nuanced intellects prevailed.
Wow, what a testament for Ron Paul’s foreign policy. If you can’t even formulate the objective then what are young men dying for? A bunch of corrupt senators, career bureaucrats and military lifers? If you cannot even rein in your own leadership and military, how can you possibly expect to rein in the Taliban? If congress won’t even pony up and vote to declare war, then why should the families of good solders spend lifetimes suffering such grief?
uh, edit? Nation building is a bad idea. It is like welfare for indigent nations. Take North Korea for example. They have turned bad behavior and threats into a national cottage industry. Nothing but the threat of annihilation will keep them in line and then, eventually, one must turn to annihilation because the threats don’t work and doing so would keep the Saddam’s and the Khomeini’s in line. I truly believed that if it wasn’t for the left, Iran would have gotten a clear message out of Iraq. Don’t be Iraq. Instead, it taught the Mullahs that hanging teenagers by the neck with piano wire is good because it teaches that”anti-Islamic” behavior has consequences and the US is weak because the Marxists and the homosexuals in the US control the government and have hamstrung the military. 10 years of Afghanistan and they do not fear us as they did before. We are a joke to them. Bad behavior is breaking out everywhere because the guard dog got his nose slapped. (Abu Graib?) If you are going to unleash the dogs of war, by all means unleash them and let them protect themselves with as deadly of force that they can muster. War shouldn’t be the easy option. It should be terrible. Nation building is a farce.
I wrote an article for AFJ back in 1999, one that contrasted the idea of the US military as embodied in the Oath as compared to what we were doing in Bosnia and Kosovo. AFJ rejected it, so they are not a publication that grabs every counter-argument presented by an officer and eagerly puts it out there just for fun.
The Dems like to bash Bush because “he was against nation-building before he was for it.” But what we were doing in Bosnia and Kosovo versus Iraq and Afghanistan and a few other WOT theaters are two different things. Clinton was essentially going snake hunting in Ireland – all the bad guys had been beat and so there was no way you could screw it up. Bush was going snake hunting where snakes are, the snakes that have tried to kill us. Nation building for nation-building’s sake is pointless and at variance with the Oath of Office; that is not what Bush was doing.
And nation building in Afghanistan was not what was needed. All we required was for the guy in charge in Kabul to not to tell us “No” when we needed to go whack someone. Changing the conditions in the far reaches of that county is at best like trying to convince the whales and dolphins to stop Nagumo should he try to attack Hawaii again. At worst, it is like pouring gold in that spot in the ocean to create seamount that will cause the Ten Ships to run aground if they come back.
One of the great things about the US Military is its ability to get people moving in the one direction, as a coordinated effort. One of the worst things is that our people will still stay coordinated and positive when they are going the wrong way. I could talk about that a lot relative to my own military experience.
blert @ 26 said:
“It really irks me to see even knowledgeable writers post as if the Pashtun and Taliban are medieval… They’re not. Their rules-set dates from the NEOLITHIC.”
I won’t argue about their rule-set being neolithic but Afghanistan was the site of a fairly high level Hellenistic civilization, i.e. Bactria. Supposedly there are irrigation tunnels and various other major civil engineering ruins scattered about Afghanistan that were left over from Bactria. I collect ancient coins and have a Bactrian coin that was struck under King Menander I Soter. King Menander is more known for becoming a Buddhist (the Buddhists call him “King Milinda”). An interesting example of cultural overlap where the descendant of a Macedonian soldier ruling a Hellenistic kingdom in the middle of Asia becomes a Buddhist. Afghanistan took a double whammy in having its climate transition from temperate to semiarid and then being forced over to Islam (the two events tend to go together as evidenced by Northern Africa). The situation in Afghanistan was made from bad to terrible after the Soviet Union imposed a communist system on the Afghans. The Soviets must have been on drugs when they thought they could convert Afghanistan into a client state. It’s cliché but true that Afghanistan is where empires go to die.
eggplant:
You could say that today, Afghanistan is the site of a high-level Western civilization, restricted to the bits of real estate where NATO troops are stationed. Beyond that? Neolithic. Afghanistan isn’t civilized. It occasionally has civilized people living in it.
As many have noted, Afghanistan is a loose conglomeration of warring tribes with no unifying national identity … except one. They will unite against a perceived outside threat. Us.
From the beginning this war should have been fought as quick in-and-out surgical strikes executed by special forces units, with the fearsome Marines providing whatever message reinforcement necessary.
The only nation-building should’ve been a carton of pamphlets, dropped on the way out, about How to Build a Nation in 3 Easy Steps.
We seem to get nation-building confused with reconstruction. What we did in Europe and Japan after WWII was reconstruction. What the British did in India was nation-building. You can work out which process took longer and cost more blood and treasure.
“I used to like Max Boot, but about the time he left WSJ, his writing also changed.” Yes I used to like Max Boot more say around 2001. But when he said send Stinger MANPAD missiles to the Georgians post 08/08/08, given Misha the Tie Eater’s fondness for letting certain Chechen and Dagestani Islamists operate in his country, Boot became dead to me. Max Boot apparently never flies into Domodedovo or Sheremetyevo or doesn’t have friends and loved ones who do. Neocons of course have no problems crawling in bed with or turning a blind eye to Islamists, so long as its their Sunni SOB Islamists targeting Russia, Syria, Iran etc.
It appears this is starting to dawn on even Spengler, who has become less enthusiastic of late about letting the MBO take Syria. Perhaps my warnings about massive rocket stockpiles opposite the Golani Brigade’s positions have started to resonate.
When Winston Churchill came through the region as a young man he argued that in former times, when the area was Buddhist, it was a garden. But afterward it became a hell-hole, though its natural beauty could not be wholly destroyed. He wrote in his account of the Malakand Field Force:
From a certain point of view the way to destroy a dysfunctional culture is not to build it up but to leave it alone; to let its own inner contradictions play out. It then becomes subject to the influence of richer, more functional neighbors through trade and roads and by and by it vanishes in a basically nonviolent process.
It can maintain itself for awhile by extorting from its richer neighbors. But if they pay but little, then the eventual collapse and discredit of the culture will only be delayed. This was happening to the Ottoman Empire. Modern Turkey was founded as an attempt to rid Islamic civilization of its dysfunction.
But the discovery of oil reinvigorated what was once a moribund culture. American largesse has probably contributed more free energy to the Taliban than it has removed. The strategy towards Afghanistan ought to be selected strikes against imminent threats, based on a network of informers in order to keep down the trouble. The larger thrust ought to be finding new sources of petroleum. Together the two approaches will allow Afghanistan to run itself down until the survivors simply choose something else.
The Afghans will probably be quite happy to do it and they ought to be left alone to accomplish it.
We will not know if the blood and effort following the post-Taliban-whacking was worth it or not for maybe another 100 or 200 years. Did the US Troops leave enough democratic droppings to start to change some minds? Who knows?
It is impossible to see any payback now because the Afghan effort following the pulverization of the known bad guys has no context. If Obama, the Media, and the Pentagon are to be believed the whole thing was about punishing a Saudi rich guy and his gang for killing some people in the USA.
How can anybody set realistic goals when reality itself is denied and ignored? Islam? What does that have to do with anything?
Until the powers to be step up to the plate and start calling Islam the retrograde, imperialistic ideology that it is, and start drawing red lines in the sand which shall not be crossed, we will have to live with Alice in Wonderland stories about Afghanistan, Libya and maybe a dozen more godforsaken hellholes until the adults get back to town.
Neocons of course have no problems crawling in bed with or turning a blind eye to Islamists, so long as its their Sunni SOB Islamists targeting Russia, Syria, Iran etc. @ 38
You speak for all neocons, eh? In fact you don’t, and this manner of dribble makes you extremely easy to ignore. Which I am doing, subsequently and forever after.
…should read:
A nation does not send its FINEST people to confront and defeat murderers based on strategies determined by wishful thinking or maybe more accurately “Magical Thinking” by its military and political leaders. The Democrat Party has placed itself athwart the path, spitting its contempt for the U.S. military and the clear interests of its own nation, for decades. When out of power, they have shouted their opposition to every policy by Republicans or conservatives to use force to oppose adversaries or protect U.S. interests, shrieking accusations of war crimes for any and all actions by members of every branch of the U.S. armed forces and the Commander-in-Chief. Even when G.W. Bush patiently built a case with dozens of endorsing ratifications by the United Nations, the Left and the Democrat Party kept up a years-long recrimination of “Bush’s Violations of the Geneva Convention” full knowing that the convention specifically excluded its protections from terrorists such as we are fighting.
But when a Democrat has been in the White House, they reverse their morality 180 degrees and recklessly send U.S. soldiers into battle without bothering to seek Congressional approval OR approval from the United Nations they insisted we must have for U.S. military actions. In the eight years William Jefferson Clinton presided, he sent massed U.S. military forces into Iraq on SIX DIFFERENT MAJOR MISSIONS attempting to compel Saddam Hussein to comply with the terms of the Armistice he’d accepted to suspend hostilities in 1991. On NONE of those occasions did Clinton seek U.N. approval or the approval of the U.S. Congress and Senate. Nor was there a single PEEP of protest from the US LEFT or Democrat Party. Clinton sent U.S. Navy vessels filled with 20,000 troops to threaten Haiti to force their government to submit to our will — again, no Congressional or UN imprimatur, and Not a Peep from the stinking Leftist “Peace” Posers.
These pus-filled bastards have no moral compass, only a weather-vane.
“You speak for all neocons, eh?” No but their silence regarding the Muslim Brotherhood in Syria and their unholy alliance with Qatar-backed Libyan Islamists who were previously held at the Bush Admin’s request in the Duck of Death’s dungeons for having fought against Americans in Afghanistan is quite telling. Ten years ago Al-Jazeera was ‘jihad TV’ for airing Bin Laden tapes, now it’s the herald of the glorious Arab Spring? Really?
One does not need to be a ConfederateH to notice it.
And their operation of certain propaganda/intel front groups like ‘American Committee for Peace in Chechnya’ would not be welcomed if it was mirror-imaged by Moscow — i.e. the ‘Russian Committee for a Free Texas/Alaska’.
@ 41 Fine by me. I don’t mean to exaggerate my powers of persuasion — while not sold on swift regime change in Syria, Spengler still thinks Achmadinnerjacket will launch the nukes as soon as he gets them or hide behind the nuke umbrella to launch all sorts of terror abroad. Of course, Pakistan having nukes has preserved that odious regime, but it hasn’t prevented the U.S. from reaching out and touching people whether via drone or special ops on Pakistani soil.
EOT for me.
After reading that JFK nailed that 19 year old intern on Jackie’s bed, it’s clear that he was a real piece of work. And so, someone observed, were LBJ, Nixon, and Carter.
Considering the parade of characters than have been through the White House, it is a miracle or a tribute to the inhuman strength of the American people that the USA has survived them. There’s a lot of ruin in a country.
Or maybe it is just worse in other countries. Our creeps are less creepy than their creeps. Could even Obama destroy America where the Presidents past have failed? Well maybe not from lack of trying.
When you think about it, all America has to do to become superlatively great is install the equivalent of normal human beings in positions of power; simply people who are functional. Somebody who will let decent people more or less alone or at least confine his shenanigans to less than outrageous proportions.
That’s a low standard, but perhaps it is the only realistic one. All this stuff about getting the “Best and the Brightest” into power … it would be tough enough elect someone with basic sanity. This business about “leadership” and “inspiration”, it just gives leadership and inspiration a bad name.
I guess Buckley was right when he said he would rather be governed by names picked at random from a Boston phone book than the faculty at Harvard.
Politics selects for dysfunction. It finds bad guys. Perhaps the reason why the Republican Party can’t nominate a really good candidate is that the existing system is designed to select sell-outs and losers.
So Leo is probably right. The only way to get sane people into politics is to flood them in through the primaries. Then maybe the odds get better. Otherwise any decent guys left in the process are the result of bad quality control in the current setup. Finding a statesman among the parties becomes like finding a virgin in a whorehouse, more a matter of luck than anything else.
When the Afghan thing started Ann Coulter said we should “kill all the men and convert the women and children to Christianity”. Sounded like a plan then and still does.
“Stoicheion’s solution is really the only viable option until the folks in Afghanistan realize that Islamic fascism is a bad idea.”
While I would like credit in honesty I can’t take it. IIRC, it was Max Boot (not sure if that is a real name or a pseudonym). The book calls for just under 700,000 troops for a classic COIN ops plan.
Everybody’s favorite Joe also presented that basic plan with slightly more restrictive ROE back when General Stanley demanded more troops and got fired.
There is nothing to win in Afghanistan. Yet, if we flee, the Terrorists WILL pursue.
By turning the ‘stan into an advanced infantry training ground we can blood our recruits in relative comfort and a controlled environment.
With a population of 300 million plus and a GDP of 1.7 trillion, the USA can keep 22,000 troops in the ‘stan until the sun goes into it’s red giant phase.
Include select parts of Pakistan. After all, there is nothing wrong with Pakistan that a customised program of carpet bombing can’t fix.
When you think about it, all America has to do to become superlatively great is install the equivalent of normal human beings in positions of power; simply people who are functional. wretchard @ 44
And yet perhaps the most normal human being we’ve had in the position of President over the last quarter century is one the Left would have us believe is nothing if not dysfunctional.
Yes, I’m talking about Mr. chimpy know-nothing George Bush. Read his biography, “Decision Points”–even if you already think you know who this man was. Or maybe especially in that case.
wretchard @ 44 said:
“After reading that JFK nailed that 19 year old intern on Jackie’s bed, it’s clear that he was a real piece of work. And so, someone observed, were LBJ, Nixon, and Carter. Considering the parade of characters than have through the White House, it is a miracle or a tribute to the inhuman strength of the American people that the USA has survived them.”
JFK’s father was little more than a gangster. It’s remarkable that JFK wasn’t worse. JFK dallying with young babes is old scandal. Supposedly, JFK was using the Secret Service as procurers to find new females for his amusement. I guess we were lucky that only JFK became President. Ed Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy were both groomed to become presidents and would have if history had taken a slightly different turn.
I guess another crime that we can assign to the MSM was it’s inability to accurately portray John F. Kennedy rather than continually deceive us with the propaganda of “Camelot”. It is interesting that the rule of 50 years seems to hold with the Kennedy family, i.e. the first accurate historical accounts of an event will not appear until 50 years after the fact. I anticipate that George W. Bush will be fully rehabilitated as a great president (like Harry S. Truman) after the rule of 50 years has done its magic.
Getting back to Bactria, the following links are of interest:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ai_Khanoum
http://www.livius.org/aj-al/alexandria/alexandria_oxus.html
Ai-Khanoum was probably the historical Alexandria on the Oxus. Western archaeologists were on the verge of gaining significant insight about ancient Bactria but were halted after the Soviet invasion. Unfortunately most of the major archaeological sites have been badly looted by the Taliban. This is something I had noticed with my own coin collecting. Prior to the Soviet invasion, Bactrian coins were extremely rare (most of them were in Afghanistan museums). Then after 9/11, the museums and archaeological sites were looted. The coin collecting world was suddenly awash with Bactrian coins. Consequently, their value plummeted and became cheap enough that I could afford one.
it’s possible — and desirable — to remove politicians completely from the process. they subtract value, and are not required any longer. they are obsolete middlemen.
Re. #13. wretchard
I think it all goes much deeper (and longer). Just recall a deliberate “wall” between info collecting agencies during Clinton admin. Something is going very slowly underground to the point that I find myself thinking that truthers’ rants have a ring of truth in them. Or at least they sense something and interpret it according to their abilities to rationalize. Do not know what it is. Inevitable march to communists’ “bright future”? Elites’ subconsious dreams getting shapes? Society slow shlepping along self-organization spiral within boundary between crystal and chaos?
“Perhaps the reason why the Republican Party can’t nominate a really good candidate is that the existing system is designed to select sell-outs and losers.”
That and the fact that conservatives don’t do the “cult of personality” thing. They recognize that the Constitution establishes a “franchise of liberty”. The management of a franchise is a set piece. The business rules are in place, all you have to do is run it. (As the GCA controllers at Sigonella used to say when you were on course and glide path, “Don’ta toucha thing). It doesn’t really matter who “runs” America, as long as they love it and believe in it, because it runs itself better than any administration can. Hence we will end up in this election voting for “anybody but Obama”, because he neither believes in it or loves it, despite the incredible opportunities it has afforded him and his family.
It has long been a demonstration of Democrat party bonafides to run down the Constitution and to wink at the lefty base and hint that all thinking people really know there is a better way, if we could only eliminate greed and emulate older and wiser political entities elsewhere. The press goes along and labels this nuance,compassion and high intelligence. Heck, Woodrow Wilson was singing this song a hundred years ago.
Charles 22,
sings tenor with me
File under “small world.”
Obama has been in permanent campaign mode since 2006 or 2002 or 1982. Take your pick. His policies are 100% subordinated to his perceived interests.
While GWB and John McCain were very much so political creatures they unhypocritically sought in their own minds to tie their deeds to interests greater than their own and yet narrowly serving the nation and Constitution as they found and understood them. N those of us who strongly disagreed with them on occasion should grant them that.
In BHO’s or Rahm’s or Jenrette’s office I would be surprised to find a dart board with Mullah Omar’s face on it. It would not shock me if somewhere in the WH or EOB or DNC HQ there is a dart board with General Petreaus’ face on it. Remember these are the people who produced “General Betray Us.”
Independent of any method used to wage war within the sewers of Islam, we are doomed to fail if our mission doesn’t include targeting degrading Islam itself. Our military could live up to all the hype, and we would still fail if Islam remains intact. Since Islam is currently, moronically inviolate, ther is no hope for victory or any lasting result, and all the blood sweat, and tears has been for naught. That is the message which isn’t being told. This guy is just nipping around the edges of a central dilemma of out times.
For fifteen years, about 1980-1994, I taught Military Ethics at a graduate level DoD school. Fascinating experience, always interesting, learned a lot. Good people, if driven almost entirely by fear of disapproval.
One thing I learned is that the Officer Corps is sadly lacking in what I would call moral courage.
It just doesn’t exist. One goes along to get along. I saw a nice bit of research out of Air University that claimed that 70% of Air Force officers 0-5 and above admitted to falsifying a report to either ‘accomplish the mission,’ a remarkably flexible standard; or ‘make the commander look good.’
Seventy percent is impressive.
That was about twenty-five years ago. I wouldn’t bet things have gotten better.
That was not to say that this LTC isn’t reporting accurately, nor that the current CinC hasn’t stepped on too many military toes. Remember that Nixon hadn’t done anything much that JFK and others hadn’t done, but he did try to muscle in on the territory of some of the barons. And they took action to defend that turf.
I find it useful to ask not what the source is saying, but why he is saying it now, and perhaps here.
A friend was recently involved in a minor (injury-free) road accident. Friend took responsibility for the accident, but the interesting thing which struck me was that two other people also had acts of commission or omission which led to the accident. Three people had to drop the ball in order for the accident to take place.
Yes, Afghanistan is a train-wreck in progress. But we can’t blame it all on the Obaminoids. It is like the shooting at Fort Hood — when some of us were astonished to learn that US troops are disarmed on base; that US officers consciously averted their eyes from obvious signs of coming trouble from the perpetrator; that US officers continued to avert their eyes even as the murdered were buried; that the US Congress had no interest in grilling said senior officers.
In Afghanistan, where are the Generals who are prepared to resign? Where is a media which is prepared to speak truth to power? Where is Congress? Obama may be at best a fool, if not a knave, but he has a lot of comfortably-off enablers.
Still, look at the probem Obama has got himself into. If he tries to pull US forces our of Afghanistan now, it just about guarantees nasty rearguard actions in the run up to the November elections. His only choice is to stay the course.
@7. MarcH I’ve attended presentations by Boot, as well as subsequent discussions, and been impressed by his lack of depth. I’ve read a couple of his books where he appeared quite ignorant of the topic. Yet he keeps publishing. I would agree that his early stuff was better, much better.
I would rate him about a D4 source, not even wrong enough to be useful. I loved E5 sources; they were brilliant! But very hard to find. I was fortunate enough to once work for a year with an FBI agent who was always wrong, or close enough to it for government work. Loved to ask him for recommendations on any topic. Knew exactly what not to do.
Watched him once badge his way to the head of a Wendy’s line. Lovely.
Good discussion. Enjoy this group above all else on the ‘net.
Cheers, and thanks, to all.
Out.
39. wretchard
The strategy towards Afghanistan ought to be selected strikes against imminent threats, based on a network of informers in order to keep down the trouble.
………..
The new pullout plans designed to be implemented in 2013 call for pullout except for a small force that looks like it will do something about like this.
http://articles.latimes.com/2012/feb/01/world/la-fg-us-afghanistan-20120202
Panetta emphasized that some U.S. troops are likely to remain in Afghanistan after 2014, to continue assisting Afghan forces and to carry out what the Pentagon calls “counter-terrorism operations”: special forces raids aimed at Al Qaeda and its allies.
……….
I’m not a military veteran, but I have a strong suspicion that nobody, of any rank, wants to tell a superior, “I can’t do it.”
@ 44 Wretchard said When you think about it, all America has to do to become superlatively great is install the equivalent of normal human beings in positions of power; simply people who are functional.
“A Republic, if you can keep it”. Please indulge yourself and google that. Mark it as a great success for the indoctrination of America’s youth by means of an educational system influenced by social collectivist ideologues that many regard proliferation of democracy as the penultimate purpose of our nation. Not so!
Where did we get the notion that two parties each select a candidate, and the people are compelled to chose between? The Constitutional Republic elects wise people, Electors, who MEET in the Electoral College, and select a person from the 100 million or so eligible persons, to be President.
Democracy is not something in a box that you can present to another failed state, open the box then pull the cord until the engine is purring nicely. It does not work like that. And if you care to examine, it doesn’t work well here either.
The value system in the Constitution, plus the oft ignored limits on government, is the root of our success. Not democracy. Note that contributors to the Federalist Papers feared “tyranny of the majority”. That is what Democrats work tirelessly to achieve. The majority of non-wealthy people using superior numbers to empower those who promise to shovel greater largesse from the treasury. We’ll just take more from the rich folks!
The moiety, the average of all the people wise and foolish, does not yield wisdom, justice or liberty. It yields self interest and injustice.
Kinauchdrach above makes a very good point. It is often said that success has a thousand fathers, but failure is an orphan. Failure in truth has a thousand fathers. Why we failed, ultimately, in Viet Nam is an immense tragedy, but it had a thousand enablers at all levels of government.
The problem of truthfulness of the officer corps is indeed a troubling one. I read a minor book written in the aftermath of Viet Nam call “Self Destruction” by an anonymous officer who called himself “Cincinnatus” , which categorized chapter and verse how the officer corps destroyed itself in the process of the failures of Viet Nam.
I don’t know if withdrawal and collapse of the Karzai government and Afghanistan will have the repercussions of the fall of South Viet Nam, but this day will come. Centuries of the cultural cruelty of poverty, tribal life and the overlay of Islam have conspired to make it impossible to reform. I think that Obama pursued this “surge” as a final means of actually discrediting the armed forces (especially the Army), as these are institutions that have had some standing and respect in American Society for some time. Either the institutions of the State must accede to the ultimatum of the Gramscian cultural march that has taken place in America for at least 8 decades, or they must be humiliated and bow to the ultimate power of the State. Which was, I think, Obama’s end game by upping the stakes in Afghanistan – rotting out the institution of the military by destroying their credibility. Making them march together to get to an ugly lie. Afghanistan could never be won, either ten years ago or now, in the sense that any normal American would think of “winning”.
Rather than worry about “what to do about Afghanistan”, we should be more concerned with the consequences it will have for us at home, when another bulwark of the Old Republic is crushed and broken to bring more control to whomever occupies the White House as our Ultimate Democratic Leader. The prize and the peril is here, not in the wastelands of Southwest Asia.
I have a nephew who owns a construction enterprise, and he hired a young Afgan as a Apprentice, he has but compliments to make about him, and find him very clever. Such young Afghans are proposed by the local townhalls to such enterprises (that have hard time to get local apprentices), these Afghans were held in Calais as illegal immigrants for UK, but couldn’t be sent back to Afhanistan for a evident reason, war.
As far as we are concerned we are leaving Afghanistan, at the end of the year I believe, as a big majority of French doesn’t see a reason why our troops should remain in Afghanistan, whereas they would be more useful in Africa
I don’t think the war in Afghanistan ever was “meant to be won,” not in the way Iraq was meant to be won anyway. But I don’t imagine it was ever meant to become a fraudulent quagmire either. It’s hard to know what a satisfactory conclusion point in Afghanistan would have been. Perhaps if we had withdrawn operations once we succeeded in running the terrorists and their protectors out and stabilizing Kabul (to the extent it could be stabilized) while informing the Afghans that should they provide terrorists safe haven again, we’d be back but this time with just our bombers? On the other hand, what’s proximity and access to Pakistan worth? In any event, you can’t successfully wage war without tangible and achievable goals.
So now we know what Bush knew, don’t really try to win in Afghanistan, simply contain it.
All that talk about Bush fighting in the wrong place was just plain wrong.
I’m not a fan of this Lt. Col. from the REF. This is some guy grinding axes. That’s not to say that things are going swimmingly in Afghanistan, or that AWE and FCS were bowls full of cherries (what’s the linkage between them and the ground truth in Afghanistan, again?). I get the impression he’s a guy with a big chip on shoulder and a hot mouth.
I guess Buckley was right when he said he would rather be governed by names picked at random from a Boston phone book than the faculty at Harvard.
Is it “names picked at random”? I’ve seen that authoritatively quoted in so many different ways; I’ve always wondered which was correct.
It’s said all Jack Kennedy ever wanted was to teach history at Harvard and chase women. Pity he didn’t get his druthers.
As I write this from Afghanistan, where I’ve been off and on since 2006, both in the military and civilian sectors, I can say with some authority that LTC Davis is spot-on in his comments. Clearly, the guy is not terribly worried about his career; it took some serious huevos on his part to say what he said. His military career is definitely over.
I stopped listening to the propaganda coming out of ISAF when I was on my last tour with the Army in 2009-10. Used to think they were just clueless, you know that whole thing about not attributing malice to something that can be explained by stupidity. But now I’m not so sure – I really do think that ISAF may just be lying outright at this point. A sad state of affairs indeed.
Sounds like Vietnam, huh?
I received that article several days ago from an active duty member of the military, who has been to the ‘Stan twice now. I replied to him:
Well Jason, you are in “the know”. The way I feel is we don’t lose another person in that armpit of the world! They have been in the stone age since there was a stone age, and there is no hope of them ever changing. The culture and the religion don’t permit it.
So pull out now and warn them that if they allow any more terrorist training camps, we’ll be back in a B-2 and turn the camp into a glass parking lot!
Oh, and bye the way. We’ll be sending over the “crop dusters” every few weeks. If we see poppies, you get the Agent Orange. Corn, wheat, and vegetables will have no problems. Have a nice day, :>)
They say Agent Orange can cause prostate cancer. So we get a “twofer”.
As soon as Obama started promoting the good war in Afghanistan, that He The One would Win, vs the Evilll Bad war in Iraq, it was politicized, and doomed to failure.
Talk to any senior NCO with experience there – or just read the milblogs and you will see the same message as LTCOL Davis’.
Wretchard in #13. says: “But Admiral King had the sense to understand that the location itself had little significance. It was the Kido Butai, the ten carriers which made up the Japanese Fast Carrier force which momentarily occupied that ocean waste that he had to destroy.”
Admiral King also had the good sense not to try to recruit allies from those serving on the ten carriers, which would have been roughly equivalent to our trying to recruit Afghan allies.
I make no claim to be an expert but it was clear from the beginning to any honest observer that in Afghanistan there were very few if any inhabitants who shared the same interests as America. One didn’t need to be a genius to see that trying to build an Afghan force from such a population to accomplish OUR goals was a fools errand.
Killing Osama bin Laden clearly accomplished nothing. The fact that our military felt obliged to give him a “proper Islamic funeral” so as not to offend his followers plainly showed that he had more support than we did. How can any one expect to win any war if they are afraid to offend the enemy.
The Afghans are doing what they and other Muslims have always done, what they apparently want to do; they are killing each other and any one else who comes their way.
The solution is not democracy. The solution is to obliterate their culture, meaning Islam, and replace it with something more suitable to a civilized world. We have the ability to do it but we do not have the stomach to carry it out.
I don’t know what the best second choice is, but it is not the the path we are now on, and some time down the road when our children and grandchildren are asked to save civilization it is not likely to be pretty.
Rummy was right all along. But he was just an old guy that didn’t know what he was talking about, right? Wrong, he just told people what they needed to hear like it or not. And he was 100% right about Afghanistan and the way we should approached it: small ground forces backed by American’s ultimate trump cards, airpower and technology. Was working until mission creep and the “I have a better idea” folks moved in. Now we are FUBAR’ed.
As far as Obama’s motives go I don’t think he had/has a clue. Only reason he championed the surge into Afghanistan was because it scored well with the focus groups. That is going to end badly should surprise not a single soul. Especially here at The Club.
I think it’s far too easy to blame the Afghan population for this mess we’re in. They’re just doing what they’ve always done, it’s we who screwed up by not being able to recognize just how difficult nation-building would be over there.
I know in this current PC world we could not have taken over the country and administered it in a “caretaker” capacity like we did in Japan post-WWII, but that’s what should have happened; handing Karzai the reins in 2004 is what doomed us to failure. We took the training wheels off waaaaaay too early. Since we had some say over how their constitution was written, we should have insisted they become a federal system, that’s the only way Afghanistan is ever going to “work.” As it stands now, Karzai appoints every single provincial governor, usually on the basis of how much money has been paid by the new governor in respect to how much he expects to earn in the province through corruption, graft, and illegal taxation. What a shining example of democracy we’ve set up.
64. Neo
So now we know what Bush knew, don’t really try to win in Afghanistan, simply contain it.
What is to win in Afghanistan? If everything worked perfectly, what would America accomplish in Afghanistan? I think I over posted so it’s E.O.T. for me. I’m off to bed and dreams of carpet bombing Pakistan. Half a dozen Arc Light missions and I betcha they would make nice.
Wow, what a testament for Ron Paul’s character. The guy has more character than all the presidents you listed combined, Wretchard.
Enough already. No special insight here, but General McChrystal seemed prepared to stay for decades, and General Fuller in his remarks about Karzai sounded ready to leave immediately, so we’re probably dealing with those who have grand plans that are sure to bear fruit, someday, vs. those who believe in basic soldiering. There’s a scheduled end to combat in 2013, and a political contest later this year commanding everyone’s attention, so who would want to make waves? Even the anti-war people are absent.
Two years is a long time to dedicate to a mission no one is believing in. Ultimately Congress is motivated by us, so I’d be happy to fire off letters to Congresspeople detailing my concerns, and I hope a million or so other people do too. It can’t hurt.
#38 “Neocons of course have no problems crawling in bed with or turning a blind eye to Islamists, so long as its their Sunni SOB Islamists targeting Russia, Syria, Iran etc.”
Neither did they have any trouble thrashing Sunni armies as in 1990 and 2003. What is it with you Paulites, who feel you must always defend Iran, Russia and Syria from the evil intent of the Americans? They are able to take care of themselves without Lew Rockwell and R.P’s help.
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/08/10355394-pentagon-investigates-colonel-over-critical-report-on-us-progress-in-afghanistan
So it begins. The brass is already trying to discredit the guy. From the linked article:
“Additionally, Pentagon and military officials claim that two years ago while he was stationed in Germany, Davis wrote a letter to Petraeus, advising Petraeus on how to fight and win a war against Iran. The officials say Davis also asked Petraeus to help him skip a rank and get promoted to brigadier general so he could help shape the strategy for a war against Iran.”
Ok, even if that’s true, what bearing does it have on the points Davis brought up in the article?
The Coulter quote is “invade their countries, kill their leaders, and convert them to Christianity.” (Not kill all the men, as you have it at 45)
From Frontier Regulars: The United States Army and the Indian 1866-1891 by Robert M. Utley.
Chapter 3: The Problem of Doctrine. “Three special conditions set this mission apart from more orthodox military assignments. First, it pitted the army against an enemy who usually could not be clearly identified and differentiated from kinsmen not disposed at the moment to be enemies. Indians could change with bewildering rapidity from friend to foe to neutral, and rarely could one be confidently distinguished from another…Second, Indian service placed the army in opposition to a people that aroused conflicting emotions… And third, the Indians mission gave the army a foe unconventional both in the techniques and aims of warfare… He fought on his own terms and, except when cornered or when his family was endangered, declined to fight at all unless he enjoyed overwhelming odds…These special conditions of the Indian mission made the U.S. Army not so much a little army as a big police force…for a century the army tried to perform its unconventional mission with conventional organization and methods. The result was an Indian record that contained more failures than successes and a lack of preparedness for conventional war that became painfully evident in 1812, 1846, 1861, and 1898.”
The more things change, the more they stay the same. I’m sure the Easterners thought that places like the New Mexico Territory and the Dakotas were a waste of time and resource over something that wasn’t useful for anything more than tales of Indians and gunslingers.
W 39 says “From a certain point of view the way to destroy a dysfunctional culture is not to build it up but to leave it alone; to let its own inner contradictions play out.”
This approach should apply not only to tribal culture but to Islam, a tribal culture all of its own. We should be encouraging inner conflicts rather than attempting to tamp them down and build a civilized culture. The faster they kill each other, the faster their ideology dies.
Spudboy.
I read Herbert’s book, and I met a friend of his when I was in. I get the idea. The picture is as you describe. Problem is, it’s bogus. He could run his brigade, or battalion, out of two trucks with radios and map tables, if he’s talking about operations. But when he gets on his famous radio, all military and shit, and asks for more ammo, for arty, for resupply, for anything, where does he think it comes from? Yeah, that’s right. The rear area. He’d be screwed along with his troopers.
It was a bogus comparison.
Herbert may well have been dumped because he had a different philosophy, and he may even have been right.
But remember that every officer comes up for promotion every so often. Since there are fewer slots the higher you go, some get passed over. At the time, if you got passed over twice, you’re out. Or you revert to your regular rank. I believe Herbert was a mustang, which means his regular rank was probably a high NCO. I saw a major turn into a staff sergeant once. That way he gets his twenty in if he wants to finish up as an enlisted man.
Herbert’s friend was a mustang, then a major when I knew him, on the way to Valley Forge Army Hospital–now closed for lack of trade–with a heart issue. He was concerned that if he got a medical discharge at that point, he’d go out as an E7. He had about a month to go to get enough time in to go out as a major. The hosp administrator said there were ways to hide him “between the sheets” so he could get enough time as a commissioned officer.
Point is, get passed over after competent service and you may well think you’ve been hosed. And you’d be resentful. Might color your stories.
See Hackworth, David. Same story. Don’t know if either of them were coloring their stories but it would be foolish not to think about the possibility.
Oh, yeah. Ike, after some difficulties in North Africa, thinking about his future, commented that he was the army’s best lieutenant colonel. Ike, being regular, could have been reduced to his regular rank of LTC. That’s right. Head of SHAEF or whatever it was, he had a reserve commission. Which, easy come, easy go. Speaking metaphorically.
In my USAF career I authored two documents similar in tone to that of LTC Davis. But neither was a “to whom it may concern” piece; both were directed at people who needed to know about the problem and what to do about it.
In both cases my analyses were eagerly received by a very few and regarded with great dismay by many others, who saw their plans for an easy career with assured paths to promotion being torpedoed.
And in both cases major formal investigations eventually vindicated what I had said. Shortly before I retired I had the pleasure of testifying before a Congressional investigating committee. And a year after I retired I had the pleasure of reading about an major Air Force investigation that vindicated what I had said in the other instance.
In any bureaucracy competance, experience, and aptitude is to be feared above all. Because such people too often will not drink the Kool-Aide and go along with the officially mandated mythology and also have the ability to not only tell the careerists to go to hell but provide detailed GPS directions to that destination.
I recently saw where a friend of mine who presided over a series of disasters around the time I retired had attained a very high rank and received a prestigious award. He’s a great guy, a competent manager, got in line with the prevailing mythology and when it all came crashing down was rewarded with promotion after promotion. That kind of thing is much appreciated; explaining that the palace air conditioning system is not at fault when it comes to the King’s frequent chills is not.
We are Led By Lightweights.
In any bureaucracy competance, experience, and aptitude is to be feared above all.
Yah. FWIW I wrote one of these reports just six months ago, on a situation over at Megabank. I managed to wake up a couple of official guardians to express their agreement with my report … but nothing really was done, management and the bureaucracy managed to suppress it and continue the situation. No lives were at stake, not even any money was immediately at stake, just (metaphorically) gate guards sleeping on the job and letting the snack vendors through security without a pass, y’know, little stuff.
But when actual lives are immediately at stake as in Afghanistan, much less the enterprise at which they are legitimately spent, … well, it’s a tough world, I often say that, but this seems to me worse than Vietnam in the leadership being removed from the actual situation, to the great risk of the entire system, as lives are lost and everyone through the system loses respect for it, regardless whether the strategic goal succeeds or fails.
We are Led By Lightweights.
Again, yah. It’s a “priority inversion” at Megabank. What competence exists is at the lowest level, the skills for promotion are entirely for seeking stasis, not asking or answering questions. It’s a common pattern of dysfunction but more extreme than I’ve ever seen it before.
I suppose it’s just how empires fall.
73. E2 – I still say comparing Afghanistan to Japan and Germany post WWII is a mistake. Yet people who believe in nation building always hold up Japan and Germany as examples of how wonderful nation building can be. In my opinion, there are no parallels whatsoever. Germany and Japan both had more or less modern infrastructures and economies that needed to be rebuilt. They were both more or less modern nation-states with some degree of experience with modern government. Democracy and capitalism were not alien, hostile concepts to them. The Germans already knew how to be “civilized” in the Western sense. The Japanese were working hard it before the militarists took over. We didn’t have to build these countries from scratch – we just had to set some ground rules (no more Nazis or militarists), give them a huge economic boost, and protect them from the Soviets. As nations, as people, as cultures, they were capable of rebuilding themselves.
Afghanistan has a weak national identity, limited experience with democracy and capitalism, little connection with Western culture, and little or no modern infrastructure, and no economic basis for becoming a modern, prosperous nation-state. Afghanistan’s normal tendency is to remain exactly the same, not to evolve. In short, Afghanistan is everything Japan and German were not. You can’t build something out of nothing.
Time to cut the Growth from the Constitution and rebuild from there. War needs to be returned to War. only agreement needed between the Warring parties is Fire is fought with Fire! enough said… Nation building is only good on a post “World War” anything less is a break and kill enough of them to make them think and do what is not going to keep getting them killed and their stuff broken! Let’s face it, Our government is beyond repair, all three branches are so corrupt they cannot be fixed (really it’s a Gordian’s Knot and Alexander’s method of undoing it is the way). We are no longer “One” nation and no longer “One Nation under God”, There is no more “Equal protection under the law” because this is no longer a “Nation of Laws”.
What we have here is the lack of a clear objective. We are in Afghanistan now to do what exactly?
I would disagree with those who think nation building is a bad idea in all cases, but until the time we are explicitly ready to denounce the Koran’s Satanic Verses that demand all devout muslims murder, steal, rape and plunder in the name of Allah, and do more than just a little something about it, nation building in the ummah is a fool’s errand.
Stoich’s idea of a small force in the ‘stan to keep down the Taliban has it merits, but it seems to me that Pakistan is the real enemy here. They created the Taliban and seemed to have controlled them ever since. As long as that small force doesn’t get in the way of taking the Paki’s down several pegs and defanging their nuke capability, I’m all for it.
A large part of our problem has to do with the perverse aims and the influence of the State Dept. As an example, we may have pulled our military personnel out of Iraq but we still have 16,000 diplomatic staff in Bagdad. Huh?http://www.redstate.com/jeff_emanuel/2012/02/08/the-state-department-staff-at-the-baghdad-embassy-is-embarrassing-itself/
Nation building should be like driving the bus after you have shot the previous driver in the head and kicked him out of the door to the pavement. By then you have the passengers full, undivided attention. Nation building in Afghanistan is like hijacking a mule; you aint going nowhere.
Using AF as an area of operations though makes good sense. There are a lot of things to break and people to kill and a small JSOC foot print can get a lot of mileage, operation with some plausible deniability and prove out new tactics and weapons systems, not to mention that it is easy to resupply them and exfiltrate them when the time comes. If there is a broader conflict in the meantime they can well defend themselves. A larger force structure in this case requires too large of a base presence with commissaries and barber shops, et al. That may not be nation building but it is trying to replicate the peace time facilities of home in a war zone. That is vulnerable and robs too much overhead to have anymore margin left over for the primary mission, meeting strange and exotic people of diverse and fascinating cultures and then killing them.
W:”Perhaps the reason why the Republican Party can’t nominate a really good candidate is that the existing system is designed to select sell-outs and losers.”
I theorize truly conservative people have no interest in telling others what to do, how to live, what to think. Some get pushed into it as a means to serve their country as was George Washington if the historical narrative reads true. Most conservatives just want to be left alone by government. Becoming that government is too much like deciding to become a whore.
Everyone knew this was going to happen per the election of any democrat for President. The democrats said as much when the war started and by the great horse spirit they did it.
Turned a won war into a tactical defeat and strategic loss just to punish America for electing GW Bush twice.
The democrats wanted to lose this war right after 9/11 and worked very hard to turn iraq and afganistan into another Vietnam.
The idea is to destroy America’s war making ability just to please the euros and france, just to turn around and work very hard at destroying American culture to replace it with some goofed up euro/france replacement.
The wars were lost in November 2008 with the election of any democrat to office.
It’s good that this issue is somewhat out in the open. It is certainly not new information however, any more than were the Wikileaks e-mails content. I have read a great deal on our military operations since the 1st Iraqi Campaign, as i term it. Even when reading books that highly praise operations or are witten by soldiers of various ranks, which attempt to put their operations in a good light, you can see problems. The majority of the books actually demonstrate that the authors are completely ignorant of their own professional trade and are incompetent.
Concerning the Afghi “surge.” The military (Army, in this case) recommendations are a matter of public record. They actually did not make any recomendations (although that is the popular term) as much as present a set of cleverly formulated options. The options were: 1. Surge 20,000 additional personnel and we will lose. 2. Surge 40,000 personnel and we might be able to win. 3. Surge 80,000 personnel and we will win.
Interesting choices, i think. What is striking is that the U.S. force structure could not support an additional 80,000 personnel in Afghi. The Army and Marines simply did not have enough personnel. The military men who crafted those options, obviously, completely understood that the necessary will to win was not there. Soooo, the politicians were told something very important, that being that the U.S. was on the road to losing in Afghi and the trend could probably not be reversed, barring a huge increase in the size of the U.S. Armed Forces.
What happened? The Obama administration chose to surge 30,000 personnel. So, according to the options presented, the U.S. political guidance committed itself to losing the conflict.
It was all politics and the outcome that we are seeing on the horizon was “baked in” a long time ago.
There are plenty of hints, going back to Tommy Franks, that the U.S. military did not think the Afghi war was worth fighting and would end in tears. The whole campaign, seen in this light, is merely an attempt to comply with political policy decisions and limit casualties. In the mean time, we avoid the real strategic issues.
It was never difficult for a professional to understand that, for a variety of very good reasons, the Afghi campaign would not produce the vaguely desired results. Once in, the only sensible course of action would have been to kill 15% of the military age males in the region. This metric is a well known objective in military circles. Obviously we could not do that since our involvement was, after all, nothing more than a domestic political football.
What can you do when it is deemed improper to even discuss why we even are in places like Afghi, or Iraq, or, the Horn of Africa, or Yemen, etc? The Administration refuses to even use the word terrorism and Islam in the same breath.
It’s hardly worth discussing that the U.S. military is incompetent, the evidence is all around us and has been for a long time. On the other hand, if pointed in the right direction and given clear goals, with minor exceptions, we win.
Consider that the U.S. mission in Vietnam dragged on for years with no tangible results. Then Nixon took over and with his administratio’s clear instructions, the same U.S. military, even according to the North Vietnamese, drove the enemy off the battle field and put them on the verge of surrender. Again, according to the Vienamese offical history, they were saved from capitulation by the communist sympathizers in the U.S and the political missteps of the Nixon administration.
I expressed in writing at the outset, 2001, that it would take serious defeat of our forces in combat before the U.S. political system roused itself to defend the national interests rather than endlessly occupy itself with looting the nation and consolidating partisan advantage.
Judging from the tone and preoccupations of the current political campaigns, that scenario is being played out, but really the process is beneath the notice of the American public. The real issues that plague us are held out of sight.
#57 –Sam Caffer,
Concur in general with your opinion on Boot. Although he writes the occasional good piece I couldn’t take him seriously after he rebutted some criticism that he had not served in uniform nor spent significant time to OIF and OEF by replying that most military deployed to those theatres spend most of the time on the FOB and are called “FOBITS (he had the chutzpa to use the word)”while he (Boot) had visited many parts of the theatre and actually been in a “complex ambush” (I would pay a lot to see what constituted a “complex ambush” in his mind. He seems to still have both legs).
The FBI SA you are discussing sounds like a characterture. Obviously there are some clowns in every group but I have generally found FBI SAs to be of a high standard. I even know of some FBI SAs who provided decent mentorship to Army HUMINT operators and other MI types downrange. These former FBI SAs even taught the young troops one or two things about complex criminal organizations which were transferable to COIN OPS.
Stay safe.
It’s starting to feel like Vietnam…all over again.
How will we protect our young warriors from the disrespect that rained down on us during Vietnam? It is starting to feel like someone hants that nightmare to be replayed.
@85 Bugs:
I hear you on all points and completely agree. My original point was not advocating nation-building in Afghanistan, we should never have gotten into that over here. I agree that even the most well thought out and executed nation-building plan would have had slim chance of working here, but at least there might have been a chance had we done things more smartly from the beginning.
As it stands, our policies since 2002 in Afghanistan set us up for failure at every level and many of our young men and women in uniform, our tax payers, and local Afghans are unfortunately suffering the most from our failures.