The First Attack of “Burqa Rage”
Earlier today in Nantes, France, two women—three women really–actually came to blows over the burqa. The burqa wearer (actually, the niqab wearer), claims that she heard two women, one a 60-year-old lawyer, make “snide” and “insulting” remarks about burqa wearers. The lawyer and her daughter claim that the burqa wearer physically assaulted them. After which, the lawyer ripped off her veil.
One thing is clear: The shop manager and the burqa wearer’s husband “moved in to break up the fighting.” Everyone was arrested. Of course, the burqa wearer has filed a complaint for “an insult of ethnic, racial, or religious character”; the lawyer and her daughter have filed a complaint for violence.
Both narratives are entirely plausible. Many Westerners are not comfortable around burqa wearers, do not want to see them, and fear that they represent a hostile fundamentalism that does not respect Western culture or values. Worse: Burqas are also connected to militant jihad against Western civilians. Many Muslim and ex-Muslim feminists, as well as secularists and feminists of all faiths, view the burqa as a violation of women’s rights and as a serious health hazard. I have written about this HERE. Others, including Daniel Pipes, view it as a security risk—homicide bombers and bank robbers may be hiding under that face mask or full head and body covering.
Europe is on fire over this issue, this symbol of jihad. Algerian-American Marnia Lazreg and Tunisian-French Samia Labidi do not believe that the Islamic veil is a religious requirement. Egyptians Nonie Darwish and Tariq Heggy remember when there were very few veils in Egypt and mourn the passing of a vibrant modernity and feminism in their country.
these sick moslem female b— are just as crazy as the men. i have often whenever i have the misfortune to encounter one of these upside down bag wearers, had to restrain myself from ripping off their birkies.
You are to me commended on your restraint. Tearing off the “birkie” would play into their cries of discrimination. You can use your voice/abilities in other ways to not allow ‘these people” to take over our country/the world with their hatred.
The United States is so slow in waking up with their milquetoast attitude to…”see no evil” crap they have going on. When we get kicked in the face again maybe our population will wake up. The women seem to be as narrow minded as the men in this religion of “peace”??…Islam/Muslims. The religion/way of life that says do as I say not as I do..
Wow, sounds like our elected officials …
I still fail to understand a religion based on the teachings of a man like Mohammad. I have to wonder how many truly understand all of their “religion”.. or is it how they are raised, as in many religions, and they never question??
“I still fail to understand a religion based on the teachings of a man like Mohammad. I have to wonder how many truly understand all of their “religion”.. or is it how they are raised, as in many religions, and they never question??”
This is a very complex question, but it is also one that Western governments should be asking themselves. The Muslim world is not uniform at all but many parts have undergone a rapid Islamization in the past 50 or so odd years. One telling indication is to dig out old Abdel Halim Hafez movies which often appear quite European. The same can be said of old pictures and videos from Egypt in the late sixties or early seventies; the practically no signs of head coverings, let alone burkas can be found. Back then, it was regarded as a backwards country tradition. The burka is actually a new trend amongst Moslems. In the past, this was largely seen as a foreign garment not suited for many Moslem countries at all; indeed, you have a better chance of seeing women in Burka in downtown Paris than in downtown Rabat. So, a lot of it is not necessarily how they were raised.
The reasons for the spread of conservative versions of Islam are myriad. Much of it is pushed throughout the world by Saudi Oil money. Being flush with petrodollars has provided the Saudis with unlimited resources which they have used to spread their misogynistic Wahabi Islam throughout Moslem countries, but most noticeably in the West. They have not only set up and financed madrassas that push Wahabi values on children in America and Europe, they have also bought favour with many universities that have Middle-Eastern studies. (It should come as no surprise that a lot of animosity in Saudi funded programmes is reserved not only for Israel, the Jews, and the Christians, but also for Shiites and other “unclean” versions of Islam.) Arab media also pushes a lot of this. I was talking to a Moslem Kurdish friend last night and what he said could easily get him jailed if he were native European. His words, more or less, were “I hate watching Al-Arabiya and Al-Jazeera because of all the hate they have for us Kurds. Those damned Arabs just can’t live beside of anybody. They call us little Israel.” Certainly it was a vicious statement, but as you can see, people who live in far away places like Indonesia or Morocco (or Amsterdam) have foreign biases pushed on them by Arab media located in deeply conservative countries like Qatar. These stations are run on oil prophets.
One of the other major reasons is that many Moslems live in deplorable conditions. The literacy rate for women in the Arab world has stagnated at around 50%. The average Israeli citizen can expect to earn 10-11X more money per year than their neighbours in Syria. Roughly, that means that an Israeli takes home almost as much per 5 week cycle as a Syrian can expect to earn for the entire year. Regimes in the region range from repressive monarchy (Saudi Arabia) to military dictatorship (Hamastan) to theocracy (Iran) to kleptocracy (West Bank) to utter chaos (Pakistan), but some have features of more or all of these. A lot of the increased Islamism is a reaction to the Arab and Moslem failures to adapt to modernity. The Arab world has largely shifted from pan-Arabism to Islamism in the past generation of so. If you look at the crowds of Egyptians after the 6 day war with Israel, practically none of Nasser’s supporters were Islamist. 99%+ of the women wore no head covering at all. The pan-Arab movement suffered crushing blows but soon gave way to Islamism as the way to restore Moslems to the place they feel they deserve in world society. A lot of it, then, is not tradition at all but an extremely violent reaction to the lack of Arab and Moslem development. Instead of adapting to the world, they want to adapt the world to them so they can be at the top of the pecking order where they feel they belong.
As far as understanding their religion, not very many do. The Koran is written in classical Arabic, a language that exactly zero people on this earth speak at home. It is poorly understood at times as you could expect from societies with low literacy rates. (Imagine someone who is illiterate and speaks a dialect of English in Nigeria hearing Chaucer.)
All of this means that many people in the Moslem world are easily led. Their governments scapegoat the West for everything that ails them, as do their Imams, and they view increased religious observance to be the way to “redemption” so to speak. Unfortunately, more confrontations with liberal western society and backwards theocrats stuck in the middle ages are bound to increase.
Thank you for the most intelligent posting on this thread. Kurdistan is not Arabia and Albania is not Egypt. I have also received the impression that the Arabs hate everyone. The hatred is in the media, in the mosques, in the schoolbooks, and in the popular culture.
Excellent analysis in every one of your posts. Thanks.
One further factor to this outline of what is essentially a tribal (two-class) structure is that the govt elites, the ‘tribe-in-power’ are in this battle to retain economic and political power. They are repressing the formation of a middle class; i.e., a democratic civic political and economic state.
In such a state, the middle class are the largest class; they are members of that class not by hereditary inclusion in a particular tribe but by merit. Merit derived from work and education. The Islamic states are attempting to prevent such a system by militant fundamentalism Islam, by preventing education, by marginalizing women, by diverting the focus to the West and so on. Of course, the dominant tribal elite are empowered by oil.
Yes, in Europe, the immigrant is isolated and marginalized but again, their movement into a purist and irrational utopian Islam is a rejection of, in a sense, the power that they feel they lack. After all, in fascist Islam, the individual has NO power and is forbidden the use of reason, science, knowledge and is, as in the European ghetto…equally powerless.
Hello, Moby.
That was a great phrase: “upside down bag wearers!!!” That’s hilarious!
Judy,NYC, Take deep breaths when you are confronted or in their presence and consider that you are the one with the intellignce & control to guide your own life. These women have
no self esteme or freedom in their day to day lives and are the product of male control, They are told what & how to think and I wonder why they are in our country to began with, as we are a free society, but I will not allow them to cause me to show hatred, only pity of such isollationizm. The freedoms we enjoy as a nation has let them enter our country and given them rights our neighboring countries are still not allowed. Freedom of Religion protects them as long as they are here legally, something we as Americans do not have in their countries, yet who is questioning if they are legal is not even talked about, only as their dress is covering is this also hidden from open question, but don’t let them take over and raise your blood pressure, again, take a deep breath. Have a peaceful week & life.
I must take issue with your argument, Anita.
The very freedoms our country has made a priority give these women the “freedom” to keep their minds closed.
That’s right — they are CHOOSING to “submit” to “control.”
I have sympathy with them to the extent they choose to CHANGE that thinking. They are not stupid. If they choose to hide in the garbage bag, and whine about their fate, they deserve what they get.
Every time I see a person wearing a Burqa I ask them if they are a man or a woman. If they are offended, good!
This is another example of what diversity brings to the west. It was planned, and hoped for by globalists.
How do you divide a country? Bring in millions of Muslims. They cause change, and are not Nationalists.
Doesn’t exactly warrant the ol’ “Cat Fight” call now does it?
I think the implications do…
First time in my life, I can say I admire a lawyer!!! Way to go Mademoiselle!
I would imagine that some women can’t wait to get rid of the damn things however for some women the idea is probably intimidating. I would no more tear a muslim woman’s veil off anymore than I would yank a western woman’s wig off (or blouse). I agree that the veil has to go but rudeness isn’t the way to make it happen. Such tactics only lead to a backlash in which they will cling to it even more.
Straw Person argument, since we don’t know the actual facts. There was a virtually identical story ages ago, if indeed this is not the same one, and the underlying facts of the older incident were clearly, according to the actual eyewitnesses, that the savages spoiled for a fight, not that the civilised people picked one.
And based on islamist behaviour, firstly, I believe that narrative based on personal experience, and secondly, the time has come to fight irrespective. The line has been drawn, and it is ON.
This article isn’t about the facts. It’s about the possibilities. It is about the threat of violence that keeps them in the veil. The possible threat of violence to get them out of it. It is about women’s cruelty to eachother. Laws are one thing and should be enforced but individuals should not be taking matters into their own hands as the lawyer allegedly did with her remarks.
The lawyer said something that you disagree with.
Throw her in jail as a lesson to everyone who might think about saying something that anyone disagrees with.
If you think that is what I am saying you are way, way off the mark. If the niqab wearer started the fisticuffs, then she committed assault and should be charged. Cruel words are no excuse. If the lawyer is in legal hot water just because she insulted the other woman, then shame on the French. Frankly I think the lawyer, if she just couldn’t bring herself to say something that would encourage the other to give up the niqab then she should have kept her mouth shut. Obviously her antagonism did nothing but get them both in trouble. I am sure that was really helpful.
The French law will go into effect in June. There is jail time and a big fine if any man is found forcing his wife, daughter to wear a trash bag. The fine for women is considerably less. They can wear it at home, but not in any public place. YAY!!! No more burqas in the public square. Belgium is considering the same law and so are the Swedes. Time for the women of Islam to get some sunshine and fresh air. It’s healthy.
Despite the failed bombing in Times Square, the Fort Hood murders, etc., Muslims in the United States are richer, more integrated, and more law-abiding than they are in Europe. America’s tolerance for cultural quirks turns out to be a force to facilitate assimilation.
I think one of the biggest assimilating factors in America is easier access to social mobility than you find in most European countries. I can see this first hand in Germany, a country that has the least social mobility for children of immigrants in the Western World. Germany brought in many workers from Spain, Portugal, Italy, and Turkey to help fuel its Wirtschaftswunder post WW2. Unfortunately, many of the children and grandchildren of these immigrants have found their career choices severely limited in the country of their birth. In the beginning, Germany called these people “guest workers.” When they stayed and had children, these children were also called “guest workers.” Now, in the third generation, the terminology has subtly shifted from “guest worker” to “German with a migration background”, being essentially a nice way of saying “non-German with a German passport.” Indeed, many are born here whose grandparents immigrated in the early 60′s, they may live, study, and work here, but may be ineligible for a German passport. Along with the idea of having “guest workers”, many Germans segregated them into ghettos under the assumption that they would go back to live in their “own” country.
While it is a bit too long for here, and a bit off topic, it is necessary to know a little about work in Germany. Children are separated into “university track” and “manual labour track” educational programmes when they have been in school just a few years. This means that your future as a mechanic instead of a lawyer could be decided when you are 12. Additionally, strict labour laws combined with a high unemployment rate makes it quite difficult for non-Germans to succeed in any part of society. Low-skilled workers can lead much better lives on welfare, while highly skilled workers do not have the same access to labour markets that “true” Germans have. This means practically, assimilation does not hold the same economic value for a 2nd generation immigrant in America as it does for someone in Germany. You can either be a shop keeper that speaks perfect German, or you can be a shop keeper that doesn’t. Since there is not as much of an economic advantage to immigration, many people don’t. By contrast in America, studies are clear; the higher your education level, the higher your salary usually is. But even then, the option of entrepreneurialism is still open. In Germany, entrepreneurialism largely does not exist in the same form. The end effect is that you often have some very well integrated Turks working in very good positions, but the majority stay at the bottom of the stack living from a mixture of Hartz and Schwartz: that is the dole and under the table work. I live in Hamburg, which used to have close to 3,000 Persian Jews. They all fled Iran after the revolution, lived in Germany for a while, then all left en masse for more favourable countries (US and Israel.) Now, you can count the Persian Jewish families on one hand.
That said, I am starting to have fears about America’s ability to assimilate some Moslems at the moment. They are far better integrated than in Europe; just a piece of anecdotal evidence, the last time I was in Boston, the manager of my hotel was Moroccan born, studied in Morocco, came to America after university, and spoke excellent English. You will have a hard time finding something similar on the European continent. Perhaps the scariest thing I’ve seen in a long time is the video of David Horowitz speaking with a MSA student. I have not seen anything so bone chilling in a long time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fSvyv0urTE&feature=player_embedded#!
That video link you shared says it all. Holy CRAP!
The day that video surfaced (about a week ago) I was also shocked. I promptly wrote a letter to every UCSD official I could find on their website — I graduated from there and so I also had access to their alumni officials. I CC’d a UCSD professor and a UCSD student as well as other professors at other universities for a little added weight.
I received one stock reply that must have been written by a lawyer since it abstracted, or held at arms length X 3, the “question” of whether the female questioner was… well I’ll just cut and paste the relevant text here:
But we were distressed to learn that at one of the lectures, a student appeared to support a position that many have interpreted as a threat to those of the Jewish faith; this causes us great concern.
They were “distressed” indeed. But note the convolution of “a student appeared to support a position that many have interpreted as a threat…
One really has to streeeeeeech to see around that corner of hypotheticals.
In any case, other than re-hashing their commitment to Mom and Apple Pie, there was nothing of note in the letter.
Interestingly though, I did receive a follow up from the Alumni department (read $) wondering whether I had been assuaged. Too bad I haven’t given them any money in the past, as I could use that as a stick for the future. (they are one of the richest universities in the country)
“a student appeared to support a position that many have interpreted as a threat”
Uh, ok. I have made some mistakes while speaking in the past, but I can’t say that I have ever mistakenly supported genocide. That is like saying that Stalin “may not have been a political moderate” and that he “did not receive criticism well.”
Thank you all for your praise. I will indeed try to extend this in the next couple of days and send it somewhere or post it online. A lot of this comes from living in Europe, particularly in France and Britain. Unfortunately, people like Dr. Chesler are few and far between on the continent. I originally got interested in the topic years ago when I noticed that many people involved in women’s issues in Europe would lash out viciously at a business with few women in positions of leadership, but they would not touch the issue of domestic violence amongst immigrant groups. I was repulsed that many of them would even go so far as to say that resistance to female genital mutilation, coerced marriages, and even polygamy is a sign of racism. (I was once called a racist because I said that Saudi Wahabi Islam maintains gender apartheid and completely disenfranchises 1/2 the population.) The irony that groups of white people with absolutely zero contact with Moslems outside of a kebab shop would call me racist for defending the individual rights of Moslem women is apparently lost in the shine of their version of multiculturalism. Dr. Chesler is highlighting a very important issue: the status and struggle for the “individual rights” of women within Moslem communities. Often in Europe, the focus is more on “group rights.” European multiculturalists will support coerced marriage as the right of a group to maintain this aspect of group identity and to remain distinct from the British public. The problem comes, however, when you have someone like Ayaan Hirsi Ali who does not want her individual rights to be trampled upon by the “right” of certain groups to promote female genital mutilation. The Moslem and ex-Moslem women living in the West should all have our support in their struggle to enjoy the quality of life that other women in our societies have. Dr. Chesler’s work is very important because of how necessary it is to underline the lack of women’s rights in Moslem communities; the fact that many former colleagues are awol on the issue is a shame.
There is an even better solution than banning the burqa. While politically impossible at this time in history, the truly appropriate action would be to ban Islam. Period.
A civilized world should show no more tolerance for Islam than it does for any other racist, hate-filled, totalitarian, humanity and civilization destroying philosophy.
Islam has nothing positive to offer the world, much less those individuals unfortunate enough to have been enslaved by the “religion of peace”.
My sentiments exactly!!! I could hug you for having the courage to put that out. You are sooo right on!!! You should be head of the UN. People think I’m nuts when I say islam should be banned and why and I say, have you ever read even 50 p of the koran or studied anything about islam that’s not politically correct? Doesn’t it bug the doodah out of ya how ignorant a whole lot of western people are about islam?
Screw the burqah! It is a symbol of slavery!
I read that in the beginning, it was only Mohammed’s first wife that wore a veil so people could distinguish who she was. Then the whole veil thing expanded. What I don’t understand is how in the world those burka women can appreciate nature(or life) with a covering like that. Don’t they notice some of their peers are unhealthy? Are they really that ignorant that basic observations and thought eludes them? Even a 7th grade text talks about health and vitamins. You’d think someone in the house could read. How do they fill out the forms for welfare and stuff if they can’t read? Is that why they stay in their own section of town? Is it really true a lot of police in europe won’t go into muslim ‘hoods? Why do they like to be zombie creepy? DO they think this will make them more acceptable? I don’t understand why a person would want to purposefully deny themselves the healthfulness of light and air direct from the source or why they would want to continue in a medieval way unless these women are so insecure due to the misogyny and vileness of islam that they have zero self respect, zero interest in life.(get them on zoloft or prozac). How often do you see artists of islam? How often do you encounter anything that is very positive about islam? To me the whole thing is like a big pus sore on the planet expanding like the oil spill.
“Is it really true a lot of police in europe won’t go into muslim ‘hoods?”
Yes. I lived on the border of one in France. It was one of the low-grade “quartiers sensibless”, but the amount of women who perpetually sported at least one black eye made me reconsider France’s multiculti dream really quickly. Sometimes state officials will ask local Imams for “permission” to visit certain areas, with the underlying assumption being that it isn’t their territory anymore. The French made an attempt to catalogue the growing number of areas that were no longer under French control. Apparently, after gathering statistics on the problem, they discovered it was of such a magnitude that they immediately had to spring into action to stop the crisis; they did this by ceasing to keep statistics. The official name is “Zones unbaines sensibles” which is a wonderful turn of phrase that means “sensitive urban zones.” By sensitive, they mean that not only do police rarely venture in, but also that anything representing the French government such as social workers, ambulances, and even postal trucks may be subject to attack. (Don’t ask me how they get their post cards; I don’t know.) And yes, the car burning problem was not something that happened during the riots. It is an ongoing phenomena with around 112 cars burnt nightly in France according to some reports, though once again, the French launched a war on statistics to get rid of the problem. Many garages near these areas have entire lots full of charred “car-beque” remains. (In Germany, we also have car-beques, but they are the result of left-wing anarchists and the problem is much smaller.)
Here is an official list of French “sensitive urban zones.” I’ve heard the hushed up number was approaching 4,000 before they changed course and hid a lot of research on such things. The figure listed here is 751 with 20 being outside of France proper. There is also a street by street list with maps.
http://sig.ville.gouv.fr/Atlas/ZUS/
Might I suggest that you write this up and submit it to either Pajamas Media or American Thinker as a full article?
I agree Jacob. Your writing is very good. But more importantly you have at your fingertips a seemingly endless array of facts regarding the degradation of Europe (a harbinger, potentially of things to come on this side of the Atlantic).
I agree with those who said you should write this up and submit it to PJM. Your clear and concise explanation of what is going on in Germany and France wrt to Muslim assimilation (or lack thereof) is sobering and eye-opening.
When you bring in millions of people from a vastly different culture and combine it with PC multiculturism,bingo you get turmoil.
Oh yes, this tiresome “religion of peace” why can’t they just go back in their caves and leave civilization alone. The latest is that muslims want to build a mosque at ground zero, the world trade center site in NYC of all places. The fact that they think this is perfectly acceptable says volumes about what kind of people they are. And now we’ll hear all sorts of whining about how “intolerant” everyone is about poor Islam, and how they just want a mosque in a convenient location. What’s the big deal? Oh its so difficult to be muslim these days, no one understands.
I actually don’t give a rats rear end what the Euro Trash do with, for or to each other. They want to fight? Let them fight. But in America the burqa or hijab or whatever it is called is not part of our culture. We are not a Muslim country. We are a Western Country with a Judeo/Christian heritage that has no connection with Islam. If the women who are adherent of Islam insist on wearing full or partial cover let them stay in their native countries where they can enjoy the full benefits of being second class citizens, of being accosted by religious police for social infractions and could possibly be whipped at best or stoned to death at worst.
kenny komodo:
Hate to be the one to break the news to you, but the barbarians – and they are barbarians – are no longer at the gate. They are well behind the gate. Call it stealth jihad. I’ve seen mulitple women ( I assume they’re women, can’t tell for sure) wearing the niqab (not the burqa, yet) on the city streets of Columbus, Dayton and Springfield in the heartland: Ohio. The women (?) I’ve seen are always in pairs, though sometimes in threes. These women must be the property of “moderate” muslim men because they were allowed out of their homes, but did not appear to be under escort by a male family member. How progressive and modern.
re. julia nyc
Of course the Muslims want to build a mosque near ground zero. It’s now sacred ground to them; the site of one of the great achievements of Islam. It must be commemorated. Death and destruction: the real meaning of Islam.
To those who engage in the wishful thinking of “Muslim integration” its time to try to see the world as it IS not as you would like it to be. Islam and Western Civilization are mutually exclusive. By definition Muslims cannot, as Muslims, be part of Western society. To deny this fact is pure folly and will only hasten our demise.
Firstly, this incident happened, not in Nantes, but in Trignac, a small village 40k outside Nantes.
Secondly, whatever words were spoken, the assault was a disgrace. If someone tried to rip my clothing from my body in a public place, I think I’d be justified in an angry response.
Thirdly, legislation that proscribes the clothing of an individual in a supposedly liberal and democratic society is a disgrace.
What shame this incident brings upon France.
“legislation that proscribes the clothing of an individual in a supposedly liberal and democratic society is a disgrace.”
So you’d be cool with it if the government permitted people to goose-step around in Stormtrooper uniforms, swastika brassards and all?
We already do.
As has so often been the case, the Petulant Left has again mistaken French laïcisme for their own anti-Christian attitude, and are unpleasantly surprised to find that the French do not really give a reservoir for the opinions of a gaggle of twentysomethings with bachelorette degrees in Angry Studies.
Islam is an imperialistic, supremacist, totalitarian political system with some forced intolerant religious aspects. One of the primary characteristics of Islam is its dishonesty – from the claim that its founder is a prophet of God, rather than a caravan robbing pedophile who heard voices, to the claim it is peaceful. If you question Islam you provoke one of its other primary characteristics, which is an unquenchable anger.
Who didn’t know that this was on the horizon? Get ready, dhimmitude is just around the corner. We will fall on our knees willingly or be legislated against by our own governments and thrown in jail for a difference of opinion. Talk about political prisoners.
I am surprised that a few posters are actually defending the burka ripper.
In a free country, people have the right to wear what they want. I am far more turned off by people with ten earrings in their face and multiple tattoos on their body. In my opinion, body mutilation is just as degrading as a burka. However, I don’t insist that it be banned and I defend a person’s right to do that to themselves.
Pulling off the clothes of another (or their eyebrow rings for that matter) is assault. If it offends you, act like an adult, and look the other way.
Freedom of expression means the freedom to express opinions and dress styles that others may not like. This isn’t the tenth century and we’re not living in Saudi Arabia.
Did you even read the article? What about the freedom to express, without being assaulted, a negative opinion about a politicized cultural symbol that quite pointedly states: “rape those filthy uncovered women, not us covered ones”?
Facial piercings, no matter how unpleasant, do not exist to pass judgment on the non-pierced (with the possible exception of the pierced-one’s parents).
I happen to think it’s a bad idea to ban burkas. But it’s a very bad idea to feign ignorance about the message they are designed to send, to both women and men.
According to the article, the burkha ripping didn’t happen until after fists started flying. The burkha wearer started everything when she took offence at what someone else said, and attacked her.
Tina Trent;
We have a Pakistani community in my area and I will occasionally see women with the face covering in the stores. I am free to accept or reject whatever message they are sending. It’s not being forced on me. I also refrain from foisting my fashion opinions on others. The woman who made the anti-burka comment should have really minded her own business. That doesn’t excuse the burka wearer’s behavior, however.
You are not going to change an entire cultural mindset by focusing on the superficial.
In the meantime, life would be far more pleasant if we stopped trying to manage other people’s (harmless) choices.
I suppose you find attacks on non-veiled women for failing to be veiled “harmless” — these are becoming more frequent in Western countries and defended by authorities in other places. Fashion opinions? At least acknowledge the actual discussion here, if you choose to wave your selective sensitivities around like a flag.
Tina;
If you think burqas are worn just to pass judgment on the burqa-less, then you need to turn down the setting on your personal sensitivity meter. I take no personal offense at some stranger who wants to wear a sack over her head. You shouldn’t either.
How is one to know if these women are free to wear a burka or not. If she doesn’t want to, her husband is allowed to beat her, kill her, etc. It is no different than slavery was, they would never speak against their masters knowing the consequences. So until you come up with a method of knowing which women want to wear one and which ones are being forced, you cannot defend this practice. It is subjugation, plain and simple.
And until you do, you have to respect the right of people to wear what they are wearing. Some Muslim women do not see burkas as subjugation at all, while others want nothing to do with them. Prohibiting certain clothing isn’t going to change the attitude behind it.
In a free country, people have the right to wear what they want.
This is generally true but there ought to be some exceptions and one exception is the misogynistic uniform of an intolerant, imperialistic, totalitarian political system posing as a religion.
“In a free country, people have the right to wear what they want.”
-What kind of free country is that? If it’s one where I have no right to discriminate in renting housing or providing any kind of commercial service, then I have no right to refuse to interact, on various levels, with Muslims. And yet if our free society has been built up from the trust that only face-to-face interaction engenders, then face covering is incompatible with a free society that mandates interpersonal reciprocity.
In the city of Vancouver, where I live, in the 1920s (in some, not all, respects a freer time than today) the Ku Klux Klan was causing problems. In response, the city passed a bylaw outlawing face covering in public. It seems to me a free society is one that learns that in order to maximize freedom you actually have to close off certain possibilities to facilitate others. No free market can exist without rules or limits. There’s no science to that, no absolute principle on which we can stand, but only the wisdom of learning from experience.
Algerian-American Marnia Lazreg and Tunisian-French Samia Labidi do not believe that the Islamic veil is a religious requirement.
Well, that can only be due to the fact that, if they’re mahoundians, they’re quite ignorant of the texts and tenets of their own “religion” (a political ideology masquerading as such, that is.) After all, the whole issue of why penis-possessing mahoundians aren’t supposed to be held responsible for anything they do in the presence of unveiled women, and why imams all over the West claim that “women who don’t wear mobile tents are asking for rape” comes from Mein Qurampf 33:59, according to which prophet pretender Mahound was told by its (not his) imaginary alter-ego allah the following load of vomit-inducing, immoral, misogynistic and disgusting bedouin savage nonsense:
“O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks over their bodies. That
is most convenient that they should be known (as “troo beeleevares™”) and not molested.”
There you have it… The whole veiling issue revolves around a single quranic verse and how, according to it, mahoundian males should never be expected to control their own sexual urges.
Ms. Chesler, thanks again for a great article and getting the real news out there for us on this issue. Also, thanks to Jacob (We Are Government) for his insights and commentary–well written and well thought. This is why I love Pyjamas Media.
The West may have found its salvation. A super weapon that cannot be stopped.
Here is the plan..make Burkas mandatory for Western females…and then set
the banshees lose. Every muslim man will be running for the border with Turkey
and safety. Afterwards we can repeal the law buy the ladies a weekend of shopping
at Printemps..and Europe can live in peace.
The epitomie of disgust is to venture into a swimming pool in the Orlando, FL. area.
These persons will wade into the pool in full burka.
It’s like swimming in a dirty washing machine.
God forbid you ask someone to address this issue because their “owners” (it hardly seems right to call them men or husbands) will get right in your face.
Screw them and their “religion” which was started by a sun baked psychotic pedophile
As the world shrinks, there has to come a time when horrible Islamic Sharia finally prevails, or is totally outlawed worldwide. Do your part by keeping up with the situation with the Historyscoper’s free sites:
http://go.to/islamhistory
http://historyscoper.com/obamascope.html
http://historyscoper-islamwatch.blogspot.com/
http://thehistoryscopersobamawatchblog.blogspot.com/
http://megamergedissolutionsolution.blogspot.com/
http://go.to/winslowplan
The case seems clear. The lawyer and her daughter can say whatever they want and still it is not allowed for the niqab-wearer to physically attack.
Such Hate. Wow!!! Unbelievable. All people and all cultures are not alike. We all need to understand this basic fact. We also need to stop trying to westernize the world. The more we try the more they will turn to their extremism. That is what happening right now in Islamic world. Change and emancipation of Muslim Women, they are very lofty goals, but can not be achieved by force and our dream of whole world looking just like us won’t come true.
Having said that we need to understand that our intentions might be noble, not based on our hate for other religions, then we can bring true reforms in Muslim communities, but only through educating the women. If you want to liberate Muslim women then stop spewing hate and go contribute to the organisations who are really trying g to do. Hate only destroys never creates.
Mesa,
True, all cultures are not alike.
We need to stop trying to westernize the world?
Sorry to disagree, but if you look at Africa, and South and Central America, the “civilizing” influence of Western Civ is apparent.
Did Aztec human sacrifice and slavery need to be understood? I think not.
As for Africa, just look what happened after the end of colonialization. Almost immediately, every different tribe started going back to their roots and started killing their old enemies.
The Middle East? The only real civilization left there is Israel. Iran had a chance under the Shah but blew it back in the ’70′s
Also, have the Muslims stopped trying to Islamize the world? Why is it terrible to “Westernize” the world (India, which still retains its varied cultures and foods, is nonetheless Westernized enough to be the world’s largest democracy and an increasingly powerful economic force – perhaps mesa would prefer if it were still ruled by rajahs), but not terrible for the Saudis to spread their harshly intolerant form of Islam to countries which once had a much more relaxed approach to the religion, like Malaysia?
And why do leftists never, ever consider the spread of Marxism to be “cultural imperialism?” Why, if we are to respect indigenous cultures, was there never a peep when a creed created by a 19th century German Jew in London, a Eurocentric vision if there ever was one, was propagated in countries as different as Cuba and China. Spreading democracy, human rights, capitalism, the rule of law – oh, no, can’t do that, it’s ” Western cultural imperialism.” Spread a vile and ruinous creed across the globe and that’s just peachy.
If we go by your point of view then We the People of western origins are responsible for all the good in the world and rest of the mankind is evil.
Your point of view appears to be that we the people of the west are responsible for all the evil and the rest of mankind is automatically good by virtue of being non-Western. But, hey, if other ways are so superior, what exactly are those Muslim women doing in Nantes? Shouldn’t we all be emigrating to the Third World and donning burkas in order to experience the delights of superior Islamic civilization?
The tent-clad women are in France, a Western country, not in their own. If a Western woman walked down the street in Saudi Arabia in a mini-skirt, do you think the Muslims there would respect her “native customs?” Hell, no, she’d be flogged and called a whore.
I’m tired of the double-standards. I’m tired of the multi-cultie BS that all cultures are equal. I’m tired of wishy-washy, self-hating dhimmi squishes like mesa moaning about “hatred” when it’s ONE side that is engaging in honor killings, suicide bombings, beheadings, hoping for the extermination of Israel and the Jews – and it ain’t our side. You want to see real hatred, mesa? Go into a mosque and tell them you really wish Muslims would stop killing innocent people. I’m sure they’ll all nod and agree and politely thank you for your advice. Right.
A
Donna, I wanted to reply to Mesa, but couldn’t say better and bring the points you did. You’re right on the target! All my support to you!
Here is good american Muslim website I found. Pretty good articles on Burqa, Taliban, terrorism etc.
muslimvoiceofamerica.com/blog. It is really uplighting to read a modern, forward looking Muslim blog
I look at this a little differently, for many years I accepted and supported the “majority of Muslims peaceful” argument. And supported the significance of Islam as a major religion. After much thought I have come to the realization that I must change my definition of major religion. I now consider Islam to be a cult. My criteria is simple: until there is a visible, mainstream, Islamic community that openly and vigorously condemns terrorism and radical violence, until that day – Islam is not a religion and should not stand with the other religions. It is nothing but a cult with no credibility and must grow up in order to join mankind. And it certainly will not get there by treating half its community as property. No amount of cultural relativism should require us to put aside our basic principals and moral code, or where does it end? Is cannibalism O.K.? Or just honor killings?
Tom,
If we go by your point of view then We the People of western origins are responsible for all the good in the world and rest of the mankind is evil. Isn’t this Nazi ideology? Are we becoming Anti Semites? Is not this mind set of our and the actions emanating from this kind of thinking creating more terrorist in the world who are out to dismantle us.
Lets stop trying strip people from their roots and stop stripping people from their identity by imposing what we think is right and wrong.
I do not sy that we of the west are perfect. I said that compared to much of the world we are a good example.
For instance slavery was abolished (albeit late) in western civilizations yet is still practiced in the Sudan and other parts of the Mideast. Women’s rights are treasured in the west and, well, as for the mideast…
Gay rights, freedom to worship or even change religions or even have no beliefs are protected by most western laws. Yet murder of Christians, and the fact that bibles are confiscated in all mideast countries tells you much about religious tolerance there.
By the way, I want to thank you for having a civilized discourse on this subject. We may disagree but at least we do so as civilized beings.
“stop stripping people from their identity by imposing what we think is right and wrong.”
Which is exactly what you’re trying to do. You’re making the moral judgment that it’s wrong to make moral judgments. So, to remain true to your convictions (you know, the ones that make you such a pure and enlightened being), you’ll have to go sit in the corner and dither. Try to do it quietly, the grown ups are talking.
Mesa @29. said:
Tom,
If we go by your point of view then We the People of western origins are responsible for all the good in the world and rest of the mankind is evil.
Stop generalizing. Of COURSE it’s not that simple. However, the West, with a tradition of observing the rule of law, clearly headed down the right path, whatever the bad tangents pursued (and abandoned).
Isn’t this Nazi ideology? Are we becoming Anti Semites? Is not this mind set of our and the actions emanating from this kind of thinking creating more terrorist in the world who are out to dismantle us.
I’m not even going to bother correcting your abysmal grammar, the worse if you have been raised/educated here in the U.S.
You’re submitting to ignorance and fear.
Lets stop trying strip people from their roots and stop stripping people from their identity by imposing what we think is right and wrong.
Guess what:
Right and wrong are the FOUNDATION OF THE RULE OF LAW. There is no free lunch, nor any exemption.
If you don’t like it, split. And don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
Mesa: let me guess, you’re young and have been taught all your life that the Founding Fathers were slave-owners and bad, that western imperialism was evil (you probably were taught next to nothing about non-western imperialism), capitalism is awful, and the history of America and the west is one of oppression and persecution of wonderful non-Westerners. You had moral relativism stuffed into your brain. You were raised to think of your own culture as “racist” and to loathe it.
I hate to break it to you, but you wuz robbed. Robbed of a true liberal arts education, a complex understanding of the past (not a denial that the West has screwed up badly on occasion, but a denial that the screw-ups are what defines the West), and a love of the richness and beauty of Western culture (which does not preclude an appreciation of the best of non-Western cultures. Islam’s treatment of women is not the best of non-Western cultures.)
Stop spouting fluffy pc cliches, which are a substitute for thought,and consider really learning some history and try thinking for yourself.
Muslim female ‘covering’ = Muslim Female Slave Rag.
‘Milder’ forms of covering (i.e. those that leave the face visible, but treat the woman’s head-hair, ears, neck, as if they were her pubic area) = Muslim Female Slave Hood.
Burqa, niqab, etc (he garments that cover up the entire woman, and that treat the woman’s *face*, not just her head-hair and ears, as if it were her exposed genitals) = Muslim Female Slave Mask.
A Muslim woman in full Slave Mask and Shroud, parading past non-Muslim women in a western city, is conveying the same kind of threat to those women, as would be conveyed to free black people, if the black slave of a Ku Klux Klansman were to parade through a free black neighbourhood wearing full Klan regalia.
Yup.
That picture of Burqa women walking in front of the Effiel Tower reminds me of a scene from “Night of the Living Dead”.
By the way. Did you see the shower curtain, some say tarp, that Michele Obama was wearing at the dinner for Mexican president Calderon?
We definitely need a womens’ clothing revolution in the Moslem world and in the White House.
M.O. could also have used a better hairdresser.
When this ban the burka stuff first came out, I was VERY skeptical. It seemed like weak tea, a meaningless gesture, a self-congratulatory symbolic ritual for a Europe losing the real fights before them.
I’m beginning to reconsider that.
This is only one of several stories that have got me thinking that this will supply a rallying point for besieged Europeans, and a nice simple practical matter that people can fight about without lots of distracting sophistry. By that I mean that you can befuddle people with double-talk about who is the aggressor in far off Gaza, or whether or not mohammedanism is really peaceful, but you can’t obfuscate the issue of whether or not somebody is wearing a bag over their head.
Maybe this will work out for the best.
Never seeing a female human being who isn’t dressed like this (other than a female relative in the home) might drive anxious and frustrated young men to contemplate the “joys” of martyrdom.
Forcing this garb in Saudi culture is part of Wahhabist insanity
The freaky fundamentalists (include now the American born terrorist in Yemen, al-Awlaki) claim to melt down in rage and shame when they’re forced to look upon an actual female face.
There are no words to describe this appalling ideology.
slightly OT:
8-10 years ago there was a movement in France called Ni Putes ni soumises, which, as I remember, worked hard to support young girls in their quest to not wear the hijab, niqab, etc. (particularly when forced to by men in their family.) Is this still going on, is there any support in immigrant communities, or have these women been over-run by fundamentalists?
There are many many unacceptable aspects to the niqab, burqa or any other covering that hides or obscures the wearer.
Often missed in this debate is the extremely negative visceral reaction of many, if not all Westerners – our collective disgust and often desire to rid ourselves of this offensive blight on our cultural values and societal norms.
I personally resent niqab wearers for putting their religion in my face.
I look forward to many more instances of niqab wearers having difficulties.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali got it right: these bags redefine every part of a woman as genitals unfit for viewing.
I propose we call them Cotton Condoms.