Divestment and the War Against the Jews, Part 2010.
The Presbyterian Church in the United States (PCUSA) is about to release a report which denounces Israel as a “racist” nation which has absolutely no historical, covenantal, or theological right to the Holy Land. The report calls for the United States to withhold financial and military aid to Israel and for boycotts and sanctions against Israel. That’s not all. The report also endorses a Palestinian “right of return” and “apologizes to Palestinians for even conceding that Israel has a right to exist.” According to the press release, it also states that Israel’s history begins only with the Holocaust and that Israel is “a nation mistakenly created by Western powers at the expense of the Palestinian people to solve the ‘Jewish problem’.”
In addition, PCUSA has also resolved to divest in companies that supply military equipment to the American Army, e.g. Boeing, Lockheed-Martin, Northrop Grumman, Raytheon, etc.
In 2004, this Church became the first mainline Protestant denomination in America to “approve a policy of divestment from Israel.” This was rescinded, but in 2008 the Church “created a committee dominated by seven activists holding strong anti-Israel beliefs. The lone member sympathetic to Israel, quit in protest when he saw their radical agenda.”
The Simon Wiesenthal Center notes that 46 members of the US Congress and Senate are Presbyterians and fears potentially “significant repercussions in the political domain” as well as a negative “impact on interfaith relations.” They urge us all to protest directly to the top leadership of the PCUSA “to stop this dangerous campaign which denies the legitimacy and security of Israel,” and to “reach out to your Presbyterian friends.”
Rembrandt: Assuerus, Haman, and Esther, 1660
Amalek (the eternal enemy of the Jews) has arrived, right on time for the Purim festival. The war against the Jews is precisely what Purim is about. We read the classic indictment against the Jews for the first time in full in the haunting story of Esther. Haman, the Persian King’s advisor, tells him this: “There exists a particular people, far-flung, widespread among the peoples in all the colonies of your realm. Their customs differ from those of all peoples, and they do not abide by his majesty’s bylaws; his majesty has nothing to gain by tolerating them.” Haman also points out that the Jews are wealthy and offers the King the lion’s share of the spoils.
The Jews have been looked at suspiciously, murderously before — in Egypt for example, where their prosperity, fertility, and potential of becoming a fifth column greatly worried the new Pharaoh. But even Pharaoh did not propose what Haman (and Hitler after him) proposed: send the same edict everywhere, “to devastate, slaughter, and annihilate all the Jews (Yehudim), from the youngest to the oldest, children, women, in a single day…with their booty to be despoiled.”
Esther, known for her grace and charm, as well as for her beauty, is the Queen. Esther was forcibly “taken,” and the King was “taken” with her; she did not freely choose to compete in the beauty contest to become the new Queen, especially since the King had killed her predecessor, Queen Vashti, for refusing to appear “naked” before her drunken husband and his drunken guests.
I am so sad about this news. Sad and angry that Pcusa seems not interested at all in sanctionsa gainst Iran, Sudan or Saudi Arabia.
I would love to ask them why.
But yes, talk to them anyway. It may be possible that the avarage presbyterian does not agree with the decision and feel he/she has not be consulted.
Also, may I suggest to ask women rabbis to reach out to women presbyterian pastors?
“The Simon Weisenthal Center notes that 46 members of the US Congress and Senate are Presbyterians”
Pro-Israel and conservative radio talk show host Hugh Hewitt is also a Presbyterian. He could care less what these clowns have to say. Most sensible religious adherents of the various Judeo-Christian denominations have long ago learned to ignore such so-called theological guidance. Your typical left-wing theology graduate has obtained a phony degree behind their name. They are merely another example of the declining academic standards found pervasively throughout the western world.
PS: It is actually Wiesenthal and not Weisenthal.
I’m not at all impressed, in fact, I’m with David Thomson on this one. Before long, the last Presbyterian will have to turn out the lights before leaving the building. Church members are moving to other denominations. They are just as disgusted as Dr. Chesler, with this and many other issues.
Oh, great. I was baptized and confirmed one of them. Where do I turn in my membership card?
I was born, baptized and reared in the Presbyterian Church, before I became Episcopalian and then Catholic.
Unfortunately PCUSA has been taken over by the equivalent of Liberation Theologians, the peace-and-social-justice Birkenstock crowd. The problem was amplified when the Southern and Northern branches, split since the Civil War, re-merged: while the Southern Presbyterians were reasonably centrist-conservative, the Marxists were already running the Northern branch.
Shameful.
Ich bich ein Yuden!
The gifts of the Jews are many. One is, the Sybelline Oracle does not have a monopoly of truth. Life is more than cyclical. Past and future is possible, rather than just what is now.
The Amaleks of the world will fall, just as the statue of Ozymandias, as we see in the poem by Percy Bysshe Shelley.
For, this is the power of lech lecha, and standing up for what is right, in the teeth of those who are under the tyranny of their appetites.
Dr. Chesler,
I want no dealings with trash. I so not want my hands stained by the perfidy of these Presbyterians
The last time I dealt with some trash these Presbyterian garbage-heads pulled, I told them, in very plain English, that I WANTED them to divest themselves of our investments. To be blunt, we are too good for them, and they do not deserve to profit by the efforts of Jewish labor and intelligence.
I do not want to see them profit by any work a Jew does; I do not want them to benefit by our research.
OUR doctors should boycott them, refuse to work in their denominational hospitals, refuse to deal with Presbyterians. Full stop.
Let the average Presbyterian suffer (except the decent ones who want to turn in the membership card), if that can be made to happen, for the decisions of their leaders. If possible, let Presbyterians die because they do not benefit from the good works and intelligence of Jews.
This is not the first time they have pulled this crap. We, as Jews, should make it absolutely clear that they are not good enough for us to talk to, even, let alone for us to allow them to invest in anything WE do. We, as Jews, should make it clear that they are not wanted or welcome in our land…XXXXXXXX.
GOOD RIDDANCE TO BAD GARBAGE!
Makes me appreciate that 40 years ago my now deceased parents came to dislike the PCUSA so much (for predecessor reasons that led to this latest unchristian choice), they left and refused to expose their children to it. Much to the dismay of their families.
Phyllis, thank you for the links to complain. One wonderful thing about the internet is that we can let our thoughts be known. I don’t understand how they could conceivably think this was a good message. I hope the people leave in droves!
Phyllis
It is important not only to know who our enemies are–they are Legion–but also how they think and feel, how they act in the world, how they are perceived, and what we can do about them.
It is also good to know that the Book of Esther is no mere Oriental fantasy but a perceptive account of how our enemies work.
I guess too we just have to use our graggas more this year and try our best to obliterate the name of Haman.
Norman
This is dreadful. However, I have seen it coming for years. Ellul saw it in the 1980s.
My own feeling is that part of the problem is that a great many people in the Western world, especially naive well-meaning Christians, but also many (such as journalists) who ought to have more cynicism and scepticism than they do, know nothing whatever about taqiyya (and other forms of conscious deception) in Arab/ Muslim culture; the culture of expediency and falsehood; the extraordinary pervasiveness of deliberate nonsense and lies, of what the astute Martha Gellhorn dubbed ‘mad-hattery’, *especially* when the object is to fool and harm the Infidel. Not to mention the mental distortions involved in dhimmitude (which resembles battered-wife-syndrome), which lead Arabised Christians in and around Israel to conceal (or to refuse to acknowledge even to themselves) the oppression they suffer from Muslims and displace it onto the Jews, becoming conscious or unconscious janissaries of jihad. ‘He must be telling the truth, he’s a fellow Christian’, thinks the Westerner, who hears a ‘Palestinian’ Christian Arab swearing black and blue that all his miseries are due to the Wicked Jooz…when it is entirely probable that that same Christian Arab lives in daily terror of the Arab Muslim standover men, kidnappers, rapists, rioters and assassins…but knowing that it is as much as his life is worth, to complain to an outsider about anything done to him by Muslims.
So: when our well-meaning westerner hears (over and over, in various forms) long, passionate, colourful and elaborate anti-Jewish anti-Israel sob stories from the Poor Palestinians and from other Muslims (Arab or not),…he or she swallows it hook, line and sinker.
In some, the cognitive dissonance between what they have to believe of the Jews, if they are to believe what the Arab/Muslims are telling them, is massive; agonising, even. But if they aren’t able to ‘get’ that what they’re being told by the ‘Poor Palestinians’ is a farrago of lies of every imaginable kind; if they do not grasp, if they refuse to see or cannot see the central fact that the Arab/Muslim war upon Israel is a classic Jihad; then they have no way out…they have to decide that *Israel* must be in the wrong. And so their souls are corrupted, and they begin to deceive themselves.
Every couple of days another small group of misinformed, ignorant, and occasionally malicious individuals accuses Israel of some non existant crime against the Palestinians or demands that Israel concede this or that moral ground to her enemies and if not, then they will disinvest or call Israel bad names. All the more disturbing is that some of these groups are Jewish and even directly associated with and financed by the Reform or Conservative streams Judaism, indeed, there exists something called Neturi Karta, a tiny yet extremely venomous group of ultra Orthodox Jews who actually agree with and financially support almost all of Israels most dangerous enemies with the excuse that secular Zionist Israel is an affront and outright sin to God and Judaism. So when anyone complains to me about Christian anti Semitism or hatred towards Israel, I try to keep some sense of balance about it and remember that while in the past the Christians and the Moslems have been our bitter enemies and have done considerable damage to us, we Jews have produced some of our own worst enemies too.
And yet withal, as anyone who has ever visited Israel or spent even a small amount of time here can easily attest, there is no other country in the world which is so tolerant, so free, so kind, and yet so economically and technologically developed. Even Israeli Arabs, many of whom profess a deep and abiding animosity towards Israel and Jews, when given the choice between remaining Israeli citizens or becoming part of Palestine, overwhelmingly choose their Jewish Israeli citizenship. Indeed, many thousands of Palestinians have moved to Jerusalem in an attempt to obtain Israeli citizenship and to enjoy living in the only free and open democracy in the Middle East. In point of fact, so many Palestinians have moved into Jewish neighborhoods in the so called Western part of the city, that increasing numbers of Jews refuse to continue living there out of genuine and real fear of their new Arab neighbors and their culture of violence and theft.
I would point out that as the Haggadah says, in every generation they rise up to destroy us, the Jewish People, and with God’s help they often destroy themselves. Amalek y”s is always with us, certainly in spirit if not in fact, and so long as we raise out hands to God, as Moses did in the very first confrontation we had with Amalek y”s, we Jews will remain victorious.
פורים שמח
I have been attending an Evangelical Presbyterian Church. In March they are celebrating Purim with costumes and a feast. It’s a big event and church wide and voluntary. Just letting you know that there are Presbyterians out there in the U.S.A. that recognize, honor and LOVE Israel.
Nothing new for the Presbyterian Church. Seems like for years now they’ve been in the forefront of promoting a “BDS” (boycott, divertments and sanctions) campaign against Israel. Yes, they are the new Haman, as one or more generally rear their collective heads throughout history.
Tragically, Jewish history is replete with traitors and self-haters who work in concert and even promote those who seek the destruction of the Jews and the land of Israel. Proof positive of this is that fact that the PCUSA and their nefarious deeds are lauded on the web site of rogue professor Norman Finkelstein.
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/the-meaning-of-the-presbyterian-vote/
Thank G-d for the unwavering faith of such Jews as Mordechai and Queen Esther, for that is the only thing that has sustained the Jewish people throughout the blood stained pages of their history. The story of Purim is thus timeless and eternal and will be emblazoned in our hearts and souls forever as even after the coming of Moshiach and the final redemption, we will continue to read this story of G-d’s hidden hand in ensuring our survival.
Phyllis, the way you’ve tied in the story of Purim to the recent activities of the PCUSA is nothing short of a Kiddush Hashem (a true sanctification of G-d’s name). May the Almighty continue to bless you in abundance. Your audience is awaiting more; many, many, many more Torah thoughts and insights from you. We look forward to Dr. Chesler’s commentaries on the Torah, Neviim and Kesuvim !!
“In 2004, this Church became the first mainline Protestant denomination in America to “approve a policy of divestment from Israel.”
I hereby approve the divestment of Presbyterianism from Protestantism.
“PCUSA has also resolved to divest in companies that supply military equipment to the American Army, e.g. Boeing, Lockheed-Martin, Northrop Grumman, Raytheon, etc.”
GOOD! Sell off all your assets. This will ensure bankruptsy for the entire Presbyterian sect!
Jews and non-Presbyterian Gentiles, unite!Let’s make this a REAL Purim Festival and hang these descendents of Haman on their own gallows!
The PCUSA is the Nazi Church of America. And Presbyterians who don’t quit the Church are complicit in this Nazi hatred.
Esther’s holiday is still well remembered. That is good. She was a real heroine.
Spin
I have never understood how these churches can make these clearly political crusades on unlimited immigration, anti-abortion and now anti Semitic Jew hatred “divestment”and still remain tax exempt. The catholic church put anti abortion organizing in its weekly church bulletins.
What are they going to do with that divested money? Go into Gaza and do charity? I hope so. Then we can watch them be slaughtered by those victims they love so much.
Lou Santacroce’s idesa of “divestment of Presbyterianism from Protestantism” is good.
By the way are the PCUSA Presbyterians still Christian? I wonder how far they have gone down the Liberation road.
A modern day Purim Spiel.
Wow! Do the Presbyterians read the scriptures? If so, then there is NO room to for any suggestions about Israel and to whom the land belongs! It is God given and declared that this land belongs to the Jewish people. It matters little what history shows, concerning this land and the people. Fact is, if the Presbyterians do not believe this fact and call themselves Christians…I have to doubt thier basic beliefs in God, period! This is simply crazy!!
this is happening because of our despicable moslem president who spends his time bowing scraping and apologizing to the scum of the earth. now, every filthy insect variation is out of the woodwork, scurrying here and scurrying there with their psycho agenda. what a pos he is. in a bad way.
This is absolutely revolting. Where is the Presbyterian church when it comes to the persecution of Christians in muslim countries? Where are their calls for divestment and boycotts of muslim countries which deny the human rights and religious rights of Christians? The PCUSA is an abomination. I certainly hope that rank and file Presbyterians will condemn what the church is doing to Israel in their name.
The PCUSA is not representative of all Presbyterians. The PCA (Presbyterian Church in America) is one place where many of the faithful Presbyterian Christians (doctrinally orthodox) fled when the PCUSA went apostate. PCA Presbyterians most definitely do NOT hate Jews. It is unfortunate that the names of the two groups are so similar.
The people at The Presbyterian Layman stand up to these clowns on a wide range of issues. Sadly, they have been doing it since the 1970s.
Their web site is http://www.layman.org , where they promote conservative, orthodox Christianity in the Reformed tradition.
I left the vile PCUSA long ago. They still have a few churches left with a burning cross as their logo. Except for folks with Presbyterian Layman, the logo looks like Presbyterians-Burning-in-Hell.
Please do not get too excited about the Presbyterians. Recently a poll told us that the majority of Presbyterians are over 55 or 60. That church is on the catapult to oblivion. You truly waste your time and energy discussing these issues with anyone within that denomination – a denomination very out of touch with the people in the pew and elsewhere. May the good folks remaining gin up some courage and leave their congregations of their long-ago-youth.
Fortunately there are other Presbyterian denominations (EPC, PCA, et al) who don’t buy the PCUSAs “enlightened” view.
I sent an email to PCUSA and got back a very silly, dishonest and inaccurate response, assuring me of PCUSA’s love for Jews and for Israel. Among other things, the response spoke as though “East Jerusalem” was taken from the Arabs when in fact the reverse is true; Jews lived there for nearly a millenium until Transjordan besieged it and drove out the Jewish inhabitants in 1948 while the Christian world sat on its hands — or worse, aided the Arabs. Jordan kept it free of Jews for 19 years until it foolishly attacked Israel in 1967. But PCUSA spoke as though the 19 year hiatus were the norm and the centuries before were the aberration.
I sent a reply setting the record straight on that and other issues. A few seconds later, the identical PCUSA appeared in my mailbox. Yerah, they love us so much they don’t bother to read what we send them when we try to communicate.
They must be nervous. A while back I signed a petition re: PCUSA activities as they relate to Israel, and today, twice, I received the following unsolicited email:
: A statement from the Reverend Gradye Parsons, Stated Clerk of the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) regarding the work of the General Assembly Middle East Study Team.
A human rights organization within the Jewish community has issued a statement about the report to the 219th General Assembly (2010) from the General Assembly committee to prepare a comprehensive study focused on Israel/Palestine. The statement says, “…we are deeply troubled that current moves underway in the Church radically depart from its 2008 commitment that its review of Middle East policies would be balanced and fair.”
The Middle East Study Team’s report, which will be released by Friday, March 5, 2010, contains a letter to the American Jewish community. The study team begins the letter by saying:
We want to be sure to say to you in no uncertain terms: We support the existence of Israel as a sovereign nation within secure and recognized borders. No “but,” no “let’s get this out of the way so we can say what we really want to say.” We support Israel’s existence as granted by the U.N. General Assembly. We support Israel’s existence as a home for the Jewish people. We have said this before, and we say this again. We say it because we believe it; we say it because we want it to continue to be true.
The team, which engaged in intensive study, meetings, and travel to the Middle East since their appointment following the 218th General Assembly (2008), continues:
And, at the same time, we are distressed by the continued policies that surround the Occupation of the West Bank, East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip, and the Golan Heights, in particular. Many of us come to this work out of a love for Israel. And it is because of this love that we continue to say the things we say about the excesses of Occupation, the settlement infrastructure, and the absolute death knell it is sounding for the hopes of a two-state solution, a solution that the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) has supported for more than sixty years.
Several previous General Assemblies of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) have adopted statements about Israel/Palestine. Two excerpts:
In 2004: The General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) has approved numerous resolutions on Israel and Palestine, repeatedly affirming, clearly and unequivocally, Israel’s right to exist within permanent, recognized, and “secure” borders (for example: 1969, 1974, 1977, 1983, 1989, etc.). It has deplored the cycle of escalating violence—carried out by both Palestinians and Israelis—which is rooted in Israel’s continued occupation of Palestinian territories (cf. statements of successive assemblies since 1967). Presbyterians have continued to be concerned about the loss of so many innocent lives of Israelis and Palestinians (see “Resolution on the Middle East,” approved in 1997, and “Resolution on Israel and Palestine: End the Occupation Now,” approved in 2003).” GA Minutes, 2004, p. 66.
In 2006: We call upon the church…”To work through peaceful means with American and Israeli Jewish, American and Palestinian Muslim, and Palestinian Christian communities and their affiliated organizations towards the creation of a socially, economically, geographically, and politically viable and secure Palestinian state, alongside an equally viable and secure Israeli state, both of which have a right to exist.” GA Minutes, 2006, p. 945.
I join the Middle East Study Team that will be reporting to this summer’s General Assembly in asking all people to continue to pray, and work, for the peace of Jerusalem. .
To which I responded:
Please stop spamming me. We won’t get fooled again. You’re no friend. You’re on the other side. Do not capitalize “Occupation,” do not capitalize “East” Jerusalem (it’s east Jerusalem), do not equivocate with “cycle of violence” nonsense, and don’t talk to me about the “Occupation of Palestinian territories” (there are territories under dispute, which have been ruled by Hebrews, Romans, Crusaders, Muslim invaders, Ottomans, Jordanians, and Israelis–never a sovereign entity called Palestine). Gaza is not occupied by any party other than Hamas. The Golan is as much Israeli as it is part of the colonially fabricated mafia state known as Syria.
Brief, keep your pious hypocrisy and “love” away from me and end the Occupation of my mailbox today!
Its about time to strip these cretins of their tax-exempt status. They should not be allowed to get away with their political activism on my dime.
This is beyond disgusting. There is no safe place for Jews.
What about the irony that–as the presby-nazis lurch further and further to the Left (or the Right, same difference)–their membership declines and declines.
Here (and I bet in other cities too) Korean-Americans make up the rank-and-file of Presbyterian churchgoers. If it weren’t for the Koreans (excellent people, mostly) Presbyterianism would by now have gone the way of Mithraism and Nestorianism.
When the thoroughly-decent Korean-Americans rise a bit higher in the church hierarchy, the anti-semitism could well vanish like a bad dream.
I was raised Presbyterian. My church, 4th Presbyterian Church in Chicago is one of the most left leaning liberal churches in America. I quit donating, and quit attending.
This is very embarrassing. Presbyterians lead our country into Revolution back in the 1700′s from the pulpit in Princeton, NJ. Now they want to lead us into socialism.
The PCUSA is no longer Christian. It has become Pagan as it tries to be part of the world’s interfaith mission. Finding common ground within all faiths to reach G-d. This is pagan, and the PCUSA will be cursed for it’s sins, as well as cursing Israel.
They have become part of the world. Pay no head to them, and worry not.
The PCUSA is dying, in part because its national office is engaged in radical left wing politics while being totally out of touch with the mainstream body of the Church.
What Ms. Chesler reports angers me becaue efforts were made five years ago to rescind the anti-Israel divestment nonsense. But the national office of the PCUSA won’t quit in their pursuit of radical left wing politics, which includes an anti-Israel agenda.
I am a Presbyterian Elder, and I have concluded there is no saving the PCUSA. It is time for Presbyterian Churches to leave the PCUSA.
You can’t expect the majority of Jews to understand that the PCUSA is to Presbyterianism as a carcass of rotted maggot-covered beef to a live cow with beautiful eyes and a lovely moo.
They ceased being Bible believers in the early part of the 20th century and now are just a bunch of clip-haired shrew-faced feminist lesbos wearing church clothes and making investments with the billions they stole from Bible believers who had to leave the PCUSA. They are thieves and murderers like their father the Satan.
To number 26 “Homemom”.
The PCA (and the rest of the alphabet soup OPC and so on) may not hate Jews, but they don’t love Jews either – they think of themselves as “Neutral”. They have failed to understand the “New Testament” because of their ignorance of the Jewish background, ignorance of the Jewish Bible, the Midrashim, Talmud etc. so they have a very skewed and narrow view of Jews and Judaism, a lot of it based on misinformation centuries old that gets passed down from seminary teacher to seminary student.
In general Presbyterians and Reformed people of all stripes are neutral on Jews or slightly anti-Jewish, you will seldom find them involved in Pro-Israel Christian groups.
@#7
Excellent comment!
Ms. Chesler:
“The Presbyterian Church in the United States (PCUSA) is about to release a report which denounces Israel as a “racist” nation which has absolutely no historical, covenantal, or theological right to the Holy Land.”
Oh dear Lord…does this mean the Presbyterian Church USA has rejected the Old Testament?
And without the Old Testament, how can the New Testament be properly contextualized?
They’ll claim to venerate Jesus of Nazareth, but pooh-pooh Isaiah, Daniel, Solomon, Ezekiel and Moses…who were the foundation for, and prophets of, Christ’s coming?
Absurd. Ridiculous. And to get “Old School” about it…heretical.
So,okay…if Jews have absolutely no rights, “historical, covenantal, or theological” to that land, then WHY is it the “Holy Land”, again?
And if the only right that Jews have to the property is that of having conquered, occupied and successfully defended it, I wonder if THAT claim will be delegitimized next? (Probably not, since that seems to be good enough for every OTHER nation to claim a right to exist, eh?).
“The report calls for the United States to withhold financial and military aid to Israel and for boycotts and sanctions against Israel.”
And there it is…they’re not happy with simply being a “referee” and making a call, they want to step up and be a “player” in the same game as well.
And this is exceedingly offensive to me, though I’m neither Jewish nor Presbyterian.
How DARE they attempt to use OUR government to effect their “anti-crusade”?
I remind that the episcopalians had a similar problem (national ofice hijacked by radical left wingers) and were thinking about secession and become missionary churches of the African churches. Don’t know if they did but perhaps presbyterians should do the same.
About PCUSA same thing than with leftists: they don’t seem to have a problem about how Arabs treat Blacks in Darfur (one hundred times more dead and these aren’t terrorists). The only people they sympathize with are those who have stated their goal is finishing Hitler’s job in addition to having tried to blow materniies. Says loooooooooots about PCUSA.
I feel that nearly all the traditional mainline churches are becoming heretical, and they are infested with leftists; which is certainly odd, considering they hate the religious aspects of our society. It is disturbing the extent in which leadership will bend to meet their secular demands. I left the Episcopal Church for obvious reasons, then we had to leave the Lutheran “ELCA” church when they pulled this same stuff. In both these cases, new denomination have sprung up with leadership from abroad. This whole story now with the presbyterians is really heartbreaking. God have mercy.
Remember, it’s the PCUSA. Don’t accuse all Presbyterians of anti-Semitism. I’m a member of the OPC (Orthodox Presbyterian Church) which is a conservative bible believing church. I’m also of Jewish descent. We love Israel.
Most of the mainline protestant denominations are in steep decline because they offer, “nothingness’. Most people who go to church want spiritual nourisment and not political clap trap.
“Remember, it’s the PCUSA. Don’t accuse all Presbyterians of anti-Semitism”.
……………………………
No one here is doing that. We all distinguish between the organization PCUSA and rank and file Presbyterians.
Don’t worry Phyllis – Israel won’t be abandoned by American Christians. As has been said, the PCUSA is not a Christian organization anymore; it’s a socialist front. Don’t waste any time on them.
Greenconsciousness 19 & ed 209 @32
Churches (or any tax-exempt organization) cannot endorse specific candidates or political parties. Moral and legal issues (like abortion, immigration, marriage, etc.) have always been – and should be – fair game. It’s called “free speech”. Protected by the First Amendment. Not that complicated.
Think of PCUSA as Stalin’s “useful idiots.” They will meet the same end as those who tried to curry favor with all the principled murderers of the past.
23. Judy, NYC:
Judy, to Obambi: HITITWITHAWHIP!
Judy, I like your style and writing style. Liked that folksy expression:
“every filthy insect variation is out of the woodwork” Do this include Miss Maddow, Olbermann, Chris Matthews, Bill Maher, Bill Moyers, Donna Brazile, so-called Dr. Hill?
Kind of remind me of that famous song, that starts like this:
Die Fahne hoch! Die Reihen fest geschlossen!
Unbelievable? Yes, at first.
But the church (small C please) just follows academe and our commissars.
So does all American institutions and the vast majority of its population. What did you expect?
As a PC(USA) minister, this bothers me a tremendous amount. Here’s the problem – our church is a very diverse one, in terms of leadership, but often not in terms of membership. The more radical liberal people often cannot find a church to serve and so they find positions like this where they can carry out a radical agenda that is not at all reflective of the larger membership. If not that, then they get PhD’s and teach at seminaries, training the next generation to be as liberal as they are, despite the fact that this does not serve the church. I myself, and I know the majority of Presbyterian churches, am an ardent supporter of Israel. And there are still a good number of Bible believing churches, but often we just want to be left alone by the larger denomination. So we don’t mobilize and send people to the General Assembly as the left does. The really sad thing is that I love my denomination, I feel that we do a lot of good in this world, and I hope that Christ is glorified in our actions. But all of this is disturbing.
But Israel IS a RACIST state!
You cannot deny the reality of a Gaza concentration camp – or the absolute control the Israel lobby has over our government.
what is wrong with you people??
Is everybody on this website Jewish and ISraeli?
such madness… Israel must be stopped from killing it’s neighbors kids because of the demographic war to keep ISrael Jewish.
You all sound like a new breed of nazis. This is quite distressing.
What is that with Jews and Arabs? A Matter of Race (Skin Colour, Language, Tribal Belonging) or a Matter of Religion (Judaism versus Arabo-Islam and/or Arabo-Christianity)?
Jews do not proselitize and it is almost impossible belonging to them, unless one doesn’t belong to them by Birth.
What do Others blame to Jews? Is that a Matter of Judaism, or Ethnic Belonging, or does it have to do with the Land of Israel (by Israel I mean the Modern Area created after II. World War)?
***
In my Opinion, there must be a clear Focusing of “the Problem”: which is actually the Problem? Why is it a Problem? Which should be the suggested Solution? (An Analysis of the Answers has to follow).
Just awful, PCUSA. This makes me glad I no longer go to a PCUSA church.
(Please keep in mind that not ALL presbyterians are PCUSA members. That denomination has been in numerical, moral and spiritual decline for years.)
How odd
Of God
To choose
The Jews,
But not so odd
As those who choose
A Jewish God
But spurn the Jews.
Authored separately by
William Norman Ewer — first 4 lines — and Cecil Browne — remainder)
That dour face Calvin must be turning in his grave. Them common sense Scots do not hold the reins of that denomination any mo’. Episcopalians also? Who is next? The fact is, the ideas of Christianity are going into bankruptcy. May be Muslin-in-the-closet M’Obama will put together an “stimulus” package of ideas for the different Christian denominations here. Repackage reincarnation? Humm, that’s a thought. Decrease severity and temperature of Hell?…Even better, separate liberals/progressives from conservatives in Hell or Heaven for, what would be a worst punishment that spending eternity next to an Al Franken, an Al Gore, or a Bill Maher. I would definitely prefer the meanest of demons to that.
If the PCUSA believe that Israel’s history began with the Holocaust, then by that reasoning, Arab history began with WWI and the final defeat of the Ottoman Empire. It’s just more of the ridiculous distortion of reality that is “progressivism”, especially where it pertains to Christian entities. I might remind Presbyterians and Jesus was a Jew, and he would be appalled by this action.
PC USA! Oh well!
They do not love God who hate Israel! Just ask the Apostle Paul (Saul of Tarsus)
PC USA i wish you had the the same love for National Israel that Paul had, or even a smidgeon of that same love Robert Murray M’Cheyne had for Israel.
PC Usa might stand for Political Correct
Just a couple of quotations form the book of Romans. Either the NT Testament is a lie and Jesus and the Apostles liars, or you are per chance or per “election” simply not Biblical Christians.
Romans 9:1-5 (NASB77)
1 I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit,
2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart.
3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,
4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
Romans 11:1-2 (NASB77)
1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
Romans 11:17-24 (NASB77)
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you.
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more shall these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
Rev. Ev.
Sitting there complaining about the Nazis and Communists who have taken over your Church is not enough.
If you are that sickened by the leadership, then either get it changed, or leave the Church.
If people such as you are the majority, then throw these Nazi bums out. If you stand around idle, then you are complicit in their hatred.
“The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.”
You’ve heard that line. I know you agree with it. Now take it to heart.
This CHIMERA becomes uglier by the minute:
presbyterians allied with the jihadists allied with the communists…
And in Europe they must add to the poison the “masons”, who have opened the doors to the islamic invasion…
Godspeed America !
Godspeed Israel !
Godspeed Freedom !
Slow down everybody. I am not convinced.
There article has a lot of alarmist talk, but not too many verifiable facts. Ms. Chesler’s description of the PCUSA report comes directly from the Simon Wiesenthal Center call to action web page. The web page is their interpretation of the report. The actual document is not available. I am very much pro-Israel and I don’t disagree with the mission of the Simon Wiesenthal Center, but they do have their own agenda. I won’t automatically assume that their reading of the report is correct. Beyond that, even if the report is as bad as Simon Wiesenthal is saying, I think some of the rhetoric is a overblown:”collision course with Israel’s survival…poisonous document…nothing short of a declaration of war”. Really? More likely, this report will have the same fate as most other such reports; it will be reviewed, placed into the minutes of an annual meeting and then be ignored.
Anti-Semitism does seem to be on the rise in the world, and Israel does face serious challenges, but this article is overstating the threat posed by seven Presbyterians.
55. GMarks: while Islam IS RACISM (and Discrimination)! [See especially Gaza Strip, ruled by Hamas and its Chart]
And Jews have the RIGHT to live there since it ist the Nest of their Culture.
While Islam (ruling Palestine) was and still be a murderous Ideology which oppresses Others,
coming from Saudi Arabia – wishing it went back there and rest there.
***
Have you been brainwashed by Islamist Apologists? They’re good in criticizing Others but themselves and in manipulating public Opinion and … Minds.
#54 Reverend
If you have merchants in the Temple, you know what to do.
And it is NOT easy.
But some of us must abandon positions and careers and they must speak because nobody else does.
And the American Warriors put their LIVES at stake to defend Freedom.
Let’s honor them by doing our duty.
I remember the day(s) I spoke… when in the eyes of the world I should have shut up, and that day gives (those days give) light to every day, and yes, I AM extremely poor because of all my yes yes and no no.
But I am probably richer than most, HALLELUJAH.
PS What will they do in that “church” , stop chanting HALLELUJAH ?
PPS And I have no right to tell you what to do:….. that’s why I speak, I am always on the weak side of any argument. Forgive me.
And, talking about people who have no fear to stand against the flood of jihadist infiltration, have a look to this article by Pamela against Norquist:
it’s not only the presbyterian church that allows the demons to drum the pace of the march:
http://frontpagemag.com/2010/02/25/cpac-shills-for-islamic-terrorists/
I think Paul from Hamburg’s caution is well advised. No doubt the PCUSA leaders are up to no good, but we have not seen the document yet. It is not wise to overplay something we are not sure of when so much ferocious hatred towards Jews is openly displayed in so many venues. Don’t want to be accused of crying wolf, when in fact the wolf really is out there.
#54 Rev. Ev:
“The more radical liberal people often cannot find a church to serve and so they find positions like this where they can carry out a radical agenda that is not at all reflective of the larger membership. If not that, then they get PhD’s and teach at seminaries, training the next generation to be as liberal as they are, despite the fact that this does not serve the church.”
So it seems, and they appear to have set themselves up as Presbyterianism’s version of Holy Mother Church’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
“I myself, and I know the majority of Presbyterian churches, am an ardent supporter of Israel. And there are still a good number of Bible believing churches, but often we just want to be left alone by the larger denomination. So we don’t mobilize and send people to the General Assembly as the left does.”
And sadly, you and your flock may find yourselves to be declared heretical by your own denomination’s hierarchy.
Schism…a winnowing of the faithful to God from the chaff of those concerned with temporal opinion.
Courage, Reverend.
These people are simply bigots operating in the name of religion. They wouldn’t recognize Rabbi Yesel Christo if he returned to Israel today. I see no point in wasting time on them. Simply put, they are the modern Haman.
Phyllis: You may not know how right you are. See below reference to Purim:
In an address to the Reichstag on 11 December 1941, Hitler declared war on the United States and lambasted the American President Franklin D. Roosevelt:
“He [Roosevelt] was strengthened in this [political diversion] by the circle of Jews surrounding him, who, with Old Testament-like fanaticism, believe that the United States can be the instrument for preparing another Purim for the European nations that are becoming increasingly anti-Semitic. It was the Jew, in his full Satanic vileness, who rallied around this man [Roosevelt], but to whom this man also reached out”.[35]
It doesn’t matter what this anti-Semite heretical group does -they’re going down the drain anyway. They’ve forsaken their First Love
and gotten lost in the vanity of their own imaginations that the devil dangled before them.
Their awakening will be a nightmare.
Instead of using the Wiesenthal Center’s form letter, it is more effective to write your own. I found the email addresses of the three church leaders mentioned on the Wiesenthal websitye: church elder Linda Valentine (linda.valentine@pcusa.org), Rev. Doctor Gradye Parsons (gradye.parsons@pcusa.org) and Rev. Bruce Reyes-Chow (breyeschow@gmail.com). Please remember that if you write letters that spew hatred, you will be written off as a crank and accomplish nothing.
Here is the letter I sent all three of them:
I was very upset to learn that the Presbyterian Church USA is preparing a resolution denying Israel’s right to exist and calling for a boycott of the Jewish state. There may be room for criticism of Israel, although I feel the Christian churches should be very circumspect in this regard given their two thousand year history of inciting violence against the very people that gave birth to Jesus, a distortion of His teachings that culminated in the Nazi murder of six million Jews. In my view, however, calling for the destruction of Israel is not legitimate criticism of any kind, but an attempt to incite a second genocide against the Jewish people. It would severely damage decades of efforts by Christians and Jews of good will to build ecumenical bridges, and would forever tarnish the good name of the Presbyterian Church with the same filth of anti-Semitism that sullies the historical record of John Chrysostom, Martin Luther and so many other important Christian figures of the past.
It would make Jesus weep, sir.
I ask you to do everything in your power to prevent this travesty.
33. person: “This is beyond disgusting. There is no safe place for Jews.”
Oh, please! Give us a break with the hyperbole! Possibly the safest place in the world for Jews is the good old USA. Or Canada. Or Europe. Or Australia.
There’s far more Christians than Jews murdered every year by extremists, but you don’t see a lot of weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth by Christians. Sure each death is a tragedy, but it doesn’t mean there’s “no safe place for Jews”. Far from it. There’s lots of safe places for Jews throughout the world, most of them being predominantly Christian countries. Be thankful for them, please. Encourage them to remain Christian.
26. homemom: and 27. Attila:
Good points.
Also, it appears to me that it is usually the leftist members of the churches that are modern Jew haters. Wonder why that is?? Maybe because they are not Christians any more but pagans??
Regarding the reported Presbyterian Church USA action, Rev. Dr. Gradye Parsons states in reponse to the above email from me, “The PCUSA has supported Israel right to exist since 1948 and there is no call for a boycott.”
#33-Have faith that God will keep His promise to his covenant people.
- a member of the Reformed Church in America
And #74-please remember that the first words spat out of every Muslim despot’s mouth is “death to Jews”. And history proves that they are most often chosen as the world’s convenient scapegoat. Do not be so harsh on someone who more than likely has a family tree with many branches sheared off by Evil.
I wouldn’t be surprised if many in the current Administration, including its leader, harbored similar astoundingly stupid views. Their policies towards Israel and Iran point to this possibility.
Phyllis -
Don’t know much about “PCUSA” – Do Know, that if it still contains Evangelicals, they will be GONE by the time of the Sunday Service after the report is published.
Suspect they could become the Next Generation of great Methodists, Baptists etc.
-S-
I just love reading these pious indignants who call on PCUSA members to leave the church, but where are the same when it comes to this government?
You call on folks to rise up and revolt in their churches, but you sit there in front of your computer screens and won’t say the same to the average Joe Citizen to act similarly toward the government.
Pious Cowards!!!
I am almost without words because of the fury I feel towards these people, and the centuries of Christian bestiality to Jews.
Criticism is common practice among Jews; everyone has criticized the government or administration policies in Israel. Only soccer exceeds its popularity as a national sport.
The analysis of Middle East reality supported by these Christians from a deep source within themselves has an anti Semitic componant so strong, it would be foolish for Jews not to always assume that it might appear at any time.
The apartheid discussed so much recently begins with Arab notions of second class citizenship for minorities and the complete segregation of women. Their wish is to only allow Jews to live among them in a diminished state. That is apartheid.
Thank you, Phyllis Chesler, for sharing this via PJM. Please do know that there are many of us evangelical PCUSA pastors who love Israel, and who work for restoring sanity to this denomination in this and many other areas of public commentary. Of course, there are many who see no sense in remaining in a denomination which releases such proposed statements. Yet, many of us do feel so called by God to stay and stand for the Truth of God. Do keep in mind, all readers, that this is not in any way an official denomination statement unless it is approved by commissioners at the General Assembly meeting this summer in Minneapolis.
Re #79: There alrady is an Evangelical Presbyterian Church organization that is growing. The trouble with going, say, Methodist is that the United Methodist Church has the same basic problem. What may happen over time is that conservative evangelicals of different denominations will coalesce together.
Our church was forced to leave the PCUSA in the early 1990s after dissenting within it for years. We could no longer stand its liberal theology and involvement in leftist politics. Many others are leaving the PCUSA too. Like a lot of mainline denominations that follow their own inclinations, the membership numbers of the PCUSA have been declining for years.
First off – I am Presbyterian. I know that much of the church hierarchy is made up of leftists with little faith. The UCC (my former church) is considerably worse in most respects. That has little to do with the actual church I attend. The members are hard-working, faithful people. Lots of Vets, lots of good folks.
The links in this article took my to a Jewish site, not the PCUSA report. If and when this report is issued, I’ll read it. If it is anywhere near as nasty as this article leads us to believe, I will raise Hell. I will refrain from any donations beyind my local church, and will work towards the replacement of our senior leadership.
I navigated around the PCUSA site for a while. While there is some whiny complaining on behalf of Palestinians, I couldn’t find the “Kill the Jews” Ms. Chesler promised.
Having little use for live terrorists I don’t agree with the church’s wishy-washy politics, but none of it seemed particularly radical. Certainly not out of line with the Democratic Party.
http://www.pcusa.org/worldwide/israelpalestine/index.htm
“…Call upon the United States to encourage economic investment in Cuba for assisting the Cuban people’s efforts to build a just society, and to do so in ways that respect the dignity of the Cuban people and their right to self-government.”
http://www.pcusa.org/washington/issuenet/latin-040319.htm
PCUSA (Inc.) wants to do business with the communists in Cuba, but divests itself of holdings in companies that do business with the United States military.
These people are, to put it bluntly, the scum of the earth. I’ll be sure never to do any business with this “church” (they sound more like investment bankers, than churchmen to me…but, whatever).
“There are currently no companies on the General Assembly divestment list for human rights concerns…”
I’ll bet.
74. I agree with you for that:
I already could pointing out the Existance of an an Alliance between (some) Jews (anyway: Heads of their Local Community) and Islamic/-ist people, against Christians,
where Islamic people are praised by Jews for their greater Piousness, while Christians are considered Heretics, Blasphemous.
All of that while both of them (Jews and their Community, Islamic/-ist people and their Community) are safely living in the Christian West (Europe),
where they (above all the Islamic/-ist Community) are calling/seeking for Non-integration,
eventhough they freewillingly immigrated there,
and enjoy the Benefit of European Social-welfare.
***
According to this Situation, which kind of Support do these Jews expect from Christians?
Boilerplate anti-Israel propaganda put out by the PCUSA.
http://www.israelpalestinemissionnetwork.org/factsheets.php
The “fact” sheet “What about Palestinian terrorism and its threat to Israel’s security?” is especially amusing.
89. Amazing …. Do have Christians Something to do with ISLAMIC TERRORISM?
Are Israeli Jews really (religiously and ethnically)cleansing that Territory?
How comes that Christians support Islamic Terrorism, Islam-ism, since this one discriminates against them?
Jews comprise a very small percentage of the world population, and yet, they are the focus of hatred for almost the entire world. This is my evidence that they are God’s chosen people. Following from this, if one has been chosen by God, they are likely to be persecuted by the world. Only God can see into our hearts, but based on their actions, I don’t believe that these members of the PCUSA are after the will of God. Satan has invaded the Church in so many ways. I am a Christian who still believes that God has a special plan for the Jews (and the New Testament says so).
Dr. Chesler,
What is important to realize is that the old divides of various protestant denominations are irrelevant now. The old “mainline” churches are losing members precisely because they have rejected biblical teachings and have become more and more secular in their beliefs.
The Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) is the biblically based branch of presbyterianism that is true to Christian teachings and believes that God will “bless those who bless you (Israel) and curse those who curse you(Israel)”. Happily, it is these churches that are gaining members while the mainlines are dying out.
I beileve that israel has a right to exist . Furternore , if you do not agree with this political realty , youare a dnagerous radical. You should be ashamed .
I do not know if the Presbyterian church has a presence in Israel. If they do, then Israeli should ask them to leave. Religious tolerance can go too far.
I’m not a member of PCUSA, but I do know that they long ago abandoned the roots of the Christian faith. Turning against God’s people (the Jews) is only the latest step in their progression toward complete apostasy.
You can be sure that Christ-followers reject the right of the PCUSA to speak on the behalf of believers. As they have abandoned the truth and exchanged it for a lie, they have lost all right to represent truth-seeking Christians. May their membership, economic resources, and clout quickly wither and fade away.
I am a member of Presbyterian Church and this has really upset me. The PCUSA is becoming not a church but a Politically Correct USA community organizer. I will let them know I do not appreciate their political actions.
As an Episcopalian, I know that my church has said and done its share of asinine things in the name of Christian “love,” tolerance, and political correctness. After a trip to Israel, our rector came back and inserted his pro-Palestinian sentiments into a couple of sermons. My husband and I were really frosted. I can’t talk politics at all with our parish priest who is vehemently pro-choice. I can’t understand clergy who are pro-choice. Anyhow–I don’t know where to go from here. I just don’t fit into the subculture of the Evangelical denominations, nor do I accept some of their interpretations. And I can’t do Catholic. The old-boy network of the Vatican, where women are exluded from positions of leadership, is not appealing to me. Growing up in the Baptist church, I was taught to revere Jews and anything Jewish–they are “God’s chosen people” and Israel is their rightful homeland. When I escaped from the fundamentalist Baptist church in college, I couldn’t quite understand the views of the more mainstream denominations when it came to international (and national) politics.
But point is: I think many clergy are like most academics. They don’t live in the “real world.” Yes, unlike academics, they work among everyday people and share their struggles. But between years of divinity school and cozy, life-time positions in a parish from which they will retire with a nice pension, many of them don’t exactly have a grasp on reality.
I love the Book of Esther and remember my college roommate celebrating Purim. Thanks, Dr. Chesler, for this article.
Donna – I would not go overboard yet. Nobody has seen the report yet, and as Rev. David said, it isn’t official unless and until the General Assembly approves it.
Pray tell me PCUSA, where did your saviour come from? Do you not believe him to be a descendant of King David (King of the Jews) and Jessie? If you deny that the Jews were ever in Israel, then your entire religion is a sham?
What say you noble oracles of Jew-Hatred? The term anti-Semitism was created by the Germans to sanitize what they were doing. What you are doing is the same.
Paul warned in the Christian Bible, Acts 20:29: “After my departure savage wolves will come in among you”.
The savage wolves came into the church whilst the church was still in its infancy. The savage wolves never left.
Stan – Here is your answer from the Presbyterian Book of Corder:
Presbyterian Practice
The church confesses the Scriptures to be the Word of God written, witnessing to God’s self-revelation. Where that Word is read and proclaimed, Jesus Christ the Living Word is present by the inward witness of the Holy Spirit. For this reason the reading, hearing, preaching, and confessing of the Word are central to Christian worship. The session shall ensure that in public worship the Scripture is read and proclaimed regularly in the common language(s) of the particular church. (Book of Order W-2.2001)
Leaders in the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) can be expected to affirm that “… the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments…[are]…., by the Holy Spirit, the unique and authoritative witness to Jesus Christ in the Church universal, and God’s Word to [them].” (Book of Order G-14.0405b.2)
MiamaMan 59:
The ideas of Christianity are eternal. They are being abandoned, thus society is going bankrupt – literally.
Calvin was an idiot, heretic and murderer. Let him roll in his grave. Don’t confuse true Christian doctrine with teachings like his. Look only to the Bible – where you will not find one shred of “Calvinism” anywhere.
Martin Berman-Gorvine 73:
“Christian churches should be very circumspect in this regard given their two thousand year history of inciting violence against the very people that gave birth to Jesus, a distortion of His teachings that culminated in the Nazi murder of six million Jews”
You can’t seriously believe any of this! This is nothing but slander. Christianity has never incited violence against Jews. Certainly there have been regimes and unstable populations who have BEEN violent – but you will not find a single credible Christian doctrine, tenet or theologian who incited violence against Jews at any time, certainly NOT a 2000 year long pattern of institutional violence – which is what you suggest here. Perhaps you are (ignorantly) projecting the Spanish Inquisition backward and forward in history? But this was an anomaly which targeted all apostates, not Jews specifically, and has been repudiated by all Christendom. What else you could be referencing I can’t imagine.
“a distortion of His teachings that culminated in the Nazi murder of six million Jews”
This is beyond ignorance. I don’t know what to call this – if I want to get this posted! Nazism came out of several occult (i.e. Satanic, anti-Christian) groups and the teachings of Darwin, Nietzche, Hegel and Marx/Engels, all of which were directly opposed to Christianity in every way imaginable. Please, though, give us an example of a single Christian tenet, or Christian doctrine, or Christian theologian’s teachings which in anyway gave rise to, or was sympathetic to Nazism? Or one reference from Nazi literature where a bonafide Christian doctrine, tenet or theologian was referenced? I would be very interested to hear your justification for this moronic statement!
Logos,
Martin Berman-Gorvine has this on the money:
Christian churches should be very circumspect in this regard given their two thousand year history of inciting violence against the very people that gave birth to Jesus, a distortion of His teachings that culminated in the Nazi murder of six million Jews”
Nazi ideology was not Christian – and it has entirely different roots – but the Nazis used the fertile soil of Christian Jew-hatred to accomplish their own satanic aims. This soil of judenhass was very, very fertile, watered by numerous popes, by the rantings of Martin Luther, by the persecution of Jews by the various orthodox churches in Europe, by the blood spilt by the Crusades, by pogroms, by accusations of poisoning of wells, by expulsions, discrimination and murder on a daily basis.
And let us be clear. The Brits locked the door of Mandate Palestine in 1939 to Jews fleweing the Nazi hell, and kept it locked until we threw the damned Brits out. The Americans, who could have bombed the railways leading to the Nazi death camps never did – even after D-day, when the Nazis were too busy fighting to care that their Code had been broken. Good Christians all of you – with plenty of blood on your hands.
All this was done by “good god-fearing christians”. They obviously didn’t know or fear the Living G-d of Israel and managed to forget that it has been we Jews who gave you Christians the ladder to climb from the slime of savagery to the alleged “civilization” you pretend to now. And you have not learned any of the basic laws in the Torah – neither “do not shed blood” the commandment of Noah – nor “do not murder” – given to my ancestors (and not you) at Horev over three millennia ago.
You Christians need to very circumspect – before some angry Jew calls down the curses of the Living G-d of Israel on your heads!
Ruvy 106:
It is you who needs to be more circumspect. And pay attention to language: yours and Martin’s. Words have meaning.
Let’s start with the basics: You say “Martin Berman-Gorvine has this on the money:” then you directly contradict him: “Nazi ideology was not Christian – and it has entirely different roots” – as opposed to “a distortion of His teachings that culminated in the Nazi murder of six million Jews”. Martin’s claim is that Nazism came out of Christ’s teachings (though distorted). You correctly say otherwise – but then Martin can hardly “have this on the money”. And this is what incensed me the most (rightfully so) and with which I most vehemently disagreed. This is slander, pure and simple. Nazism came out of the anti-Christian sources I referenced. Just read their works and it is obvious; in fact it is not disputed, even by their defenders who say -you got it – that THEIR works were distorted.
“This soil of judenhass was very, very fertile, watered by numerous popes,” etc.
I admitted that many regimes and populations were violent and unjust. Some popes (and anti-popes) were among these – they were after all political leaders (the Catholic Church is a body-politic) not theologians. Again, this does not put the teachings of Christianity in question – yet this is what Martin attacked and what I was defending. So for the most part this is a non sequitur. However, the reference to Martin Luther is on point: if you can support it. Just to be clear then, you will direct us to his works where the “rantings” in question will advocate the murder of Jews, or portray them as a lesser race, or look forward to a master race or in some other way “distort” Christ’s teachings (you will also provide the teachings in question: they may be so distorted I don’t recognize them as Christ’s at all, which would prompt another discussion) to such an extent that Jews were in fact murdered because of them and Nazism can be seen to have arisen from them: for this is the claim I am rebutting and which you have said (and then unsaid) is “right on the money”. I’ve read many of Luther’s writings, most of which excoriated the popes and their injustices, by the bye. Admittedly I’ve not read them all – they’re quite copious – but I would absolutely be floored if you could support this claim to any degree. We shall see.
The rest is a screed – not a very good one – and nothing more:
” And let us be clear. The Brits locked the door of Mandate Palestine in 1939 to Jews fleweing the Nazi hell” etc.
What about the rest of the Empire? Were they locked out altogether? No. Are you seriously implying that the British were complicit in the death camps because they wouldn’t let Jews immigrate to Palestine?! Give me a break. And we didn’t want the Nazis to know their code had been broken because to let this out would have been abysmally stupid – as is your Monday morning quarterbacking here. Of course the Nazis would have cared! Certainly enough to change their code!!! And then the war would have been prolonged and more lives would have been lost. It was a long, bloody road from D Day to victory as it was. You’ve about out-moroned Martin here: no small feat. And the screed goes on:
“All this was done by “good god-fearing christians”.”
All of what? You’ve lost me now. Are Nazis “good god-fearing christians” again (albeit misinformed)? Or is restricting immigration to Palestine and keeping war secrets (there’s an idea!) tantamount to cooking people in ovens? Are we back to the Middle Ages? What? I think you’ve finally lost it. Good, God-fearing Christians have always reached out to everyone in Love, even those who persecuted them: it was through our own holocaust that the Church was born. Good, God-fearing Christians sheltered Jews during the Holocaust and died with them in the death camps. Ever read Anne Frank? Good, God-fearing Christians died en masse at the Battle of the Bulge (after D Day) fighting to free the Jews. Half-pagan, medieval peasants and their overlords are another matter entirely. Western culture (especially Europe), since the Enlightenment, has turned away from and rejected Christianity culminating in the horrors of the 20th century, thus proving the bankruptcy of Enlightenment, Modern and Post-modern philosophies. None of this can be pinned on Christ’s teachings or on His true followers.
“we Jews who gave you Christians the ladder to climb from the slime of savagery to the alleged “civilization” you pretend to now”
Aahh…. Noo….. that would be Christ Who did that. Seems kind of obvious, really. And it was God Who gave the Law to the Israelites. So all the glory goes to God. Sorry.
“given to my ancestors (and not you) at Horev over three millennia ago.”
And this says what about either of us? What are you driving at now? Getting kind of creepy here. But wait. Let’s not speak too soon:
“before some angry Jew calls down the curses of the Living G-d of Israel on your heads!”
Would that “angry Jew” be involved in this conversation? You’ve let your anger and bitterness overwhelm you. It is another spirit that prompts you to say this, and you have no authority to be judging or calling down curses on anyone (Luke 9:54-56).
I love you, I love Jews, and I love Israel. But this is indefensible.