When I interviewed Benjamin Kerstein and Jonathan Spyer here recently, both mentioned how life in the Levant—the Eastern Mediterranean—is lived more intensely than it is in the West. Benjamin was talking about Israel, while Jonathan was referring to Lebanon, but the feeling is similar in each country, and it’s even stronger in Lebanon than it is in Israel.
The feeling is hard to describe. It’s like a low-level drug that you can really only understand if you experience it for yourself. A big part of it, I think, is that everything good and worth living for feels all the more precious because it could be lost and destroyed in a violent catastrophe.
Beirutis developed an admirable joie de vivre during the civil war in defiance of all the death and destruction around them. The Lebanese like to brag that they partied and danced throughout the war. I don’t know how true that really is, but they say it’s true, and it’s at least half-believable. When Anthony Bourdain found himself stranded in Lebanon during the 2006 war while filming an episode of his food show No Reservations, his camera crew captured a lively scene at a South Beach-style club while Israeli air strikes pulverized Hezbollah neighborhoods just a few miles away.
The following ad for a Beirut night club captures all this superbly. An ad spot like this for a night club in a peaceful city like New York or Los Angeles would hardly make any sense, but for a hip place in Beirut, it’s perfect. Watch to the end. It’s only one minute long.
Michael, when are you going to publish something more substantial?
I’m writing a long piece now.
Interesting … living along the Eastern Med is like a low level drug. I’ve thought that for years – which might be one of the reason why reading Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas and Junky (by WSB) helped so much in writing my book on the Middle East.
Existing along the Eastern Med is like a mixture of Yemeni kaht, high-power blotter Acid, and whatever the hell Nasrallah’s on to give those methadrine speeches.
Life is a cabaret, eh?
#2
Great, I can’t wait.
#3
Abu Guerilla, do you speak from experience?
#5 Ali.
Mr Totten is being a good story-teller, increasing our suspense & anticipation.
Actually, it’s hard work organizing a lot of material into something that makes sense, holds a reader’s interest, & reaches some kind of conclusion.
Michael Totten.
A question on the video clip.
Who goes to these night clubs? I mean, are some clubs Christian, other clubs Sunni, or are they mixed? Also, do Lebanese young people date in the Western sense, would they take a girl friend to a club or are the girls mostly professional?
Just curious.
Terry,
The clubs are mixed. You’ll find as many Sunnis and Shias in there as Christians. There isn’t really any such thing as a “Christian” or “Sunni” club, not in Beirut.
And the girls aren’t professionals. Beirut is not like Dubai that way. Lebanese date much like Westerners do, although there is less sex before marriage. It doesn’t look like that’s the case if you hang out in the clubs, but the men complain about it.
The scene is pretty much the same as it is in Tel Aviv. The two cities are strikingly similar in culture and feel, which is why it’s such a shock to head south into the wilds of Hezbollahland.
It’s really too bad Israelis can’t head up there on weekends. They’d recognize it as a sister city at once, and vice versa.
#8 Michael Totten.
Thanks. So Lebanon is much more ”Western” than I thought. Far more so than back home, evidently.
I have a friend who lives in Dubai & he told me a little bit about Dubai. Actually, he hates it & is trying to get transfered back to Morocco. He said it was not ”m’tmedden” which sort of translates as uncivilized.
I don’t know much about the Tel Aviv scene from experience, only hearsay & some video clips from clubs that younger friends pointed out to me.
I think (without any evidence, an assumption) that the club scene is basically the same all over the West, same music, similar clothing styles, etc. but I didn’t think it applied as well to Beirut.
Do you think this will Western orientation will survive?
I have only visited Israel for about 3 months back in 1997 but I clearly remember the sense of urgency and enthusiasm with which life is life there (the feeling that something big is happening). I don’t think anyone can help but be seduced by it. So if Lebanon is the same, it makes me wonder what it could accomplish if it could shake off the yoke of Syria and Iran/Hezbollah.
“it makes me wonder what it could accomplish”
Imagine channeling all of that adrenaline and drive into cooperative creativity…
MJT: “It’s really too bad Israelis can’t head up there on weekends.”
I’m told Lebanon was a very popular summer holiday destination for wealthy Palestinians (both Jews and otherwise) during the British Mandate period. It was much cooler there for one thing, especially up in the mountains.
My husband’s maternal grandparents were Turkish-Bukharan Francophiles and they just loved Lebanon and especially Beirut which was dubbed “Little Paris”.
While looking over various blogs as I had my coffee, I came across this at Fresno Zionism. It’s the front page from the New York Times, showing how the news of 1943 would be written today. The article is good as well but a picture is worth a thousand words, & really, you shouldn’t miss this one.
Fresno Zionism: ”NY Times Hits Bottom & Sticks.”
http://fresnozionism.org/2010/08/ny-times-hits-bottom-sticks/
I sent this to a friend of mine, who lives near Tel Aviv and who has developed a wide circle of friends. From what I know of her, this is about her as much as the Lebanese party kids in the video. Life here is like being on a low level drug.
An even more macabre Beirut nightclub is the B018, designed like a tomb underground, with tables like caskets. Check it out. http://www.b018.com/
@ Joe…. That’s not the half of it. BO-18 is built on top of the site of the Qarantina camp massacre.
MInd you the whole Middle East is probably built on the site of some historical slaughter or other….
It’s quite a good club, though…. the crowd yell “Go Topless!!” and the roof retracts.
The Tel Aviv scene is a wanna-be LA & NYC scene, definitely high energy, bordering on the hedonistic.
However, on the whole, Israelis(referring about the Jewish population)know how to seize the moment, enjoying the simplest of life’s pleasures. Just witness a wedding, even the smallest of affairs, and the joy for life is palpable. You almost never find such energy in the States, unless at a big bash.It’s symptomatic of the culture.I love it!
Most of Lebanon missed destruction last time as Israel targeted Hezbullah and strategic sites of use to it. Now it seems the Lebanese government is desperately trying to be involved in the next war.
Bye bye clubland.
Terry thanks for that link. Have to laugh.
Hi Terry,
I saw your link.
The irony is that during the war, the NYT had a distressing habit of burying any news related to the fate of Europe’s Jews on the back pages.
Their attitude has been consistent regardless of who was writing.
Talk about following the party line! Now what eastern European large tyranny does that remind you of?
“The scene is pretty much the same as it is in Tel Aviv. The two cities are strikingly similar in culture and feel, which is why it’s such a shock to head south into the wilds of Hezbollahland.”
Except that in “party” areas of Lebanon they KNOW that they are not being targeted by the IDF, whereas in Israel they KNOW the Hezbollah is TARGETING the PARTIES…
Maybe if the Lebanese people felt the same threat of personal destruction the the Israelis do they would be more motivated to get rid of the Hezbollah?
I have seen this from the Lebanese before… Maybe it’s the French influence?
#15 yesjb.
Hi. I know the history of the NYT, it could make you throw up, how to understand?
That doctored front page just struck me as saying more than a whole book on media bias re: Israel & Jews.
It’s good reporting. At the same time the attempts to draw comparisons between Lebanon and Israel are overdone, imo. I think the Lebanese practice and have practiced nihilism for a long time. There is certainly more nihilism among young Israelis than in the past, but in general this masks a still-strong level of patriotism and idealism among many. Where is this in Lebanon? Or at least, if it exists, it is theoretical patriotism towards a country that no longer exists. Lebanon had a chance to be a nation when the Christians dominated or were a big part of the politics. Now, we see in Hariri Jr.’s behavior that the Christians are basically 1) emigrated 2) dhimmized politically.
I think Michael is maybe hoping to get ME peace started on the Lebanon-Israel track. Sharon and Begin actually tried that through Bashir Gemayel. The Syrians murdered him with help from his Lebanese enemies. And many of the moderate or westernized Muslims in Lebanon were completely against an Israeli-Lebanese peace, or at least could not stand up to the Syrians.
The problem lies in the Arab polities and in Islam itself. All attempts to compare religious Israelis living in de-facto suburbs of Jerusalem with the al Qaeda ‘spirit’ within Islam and in the hard places within the Arab world (even if Lebanon has some softness) are absurd. Judaism does not teach what Arab Islam teaches, and Israel’s problem, as ever, is too much self-restraint.
Terry: Do you think this will Western orientation will survive?
Yes. Lebanon has been partially Westernized since the time of the Roman Empire.
Larry: There is certainly more nihilism among young Israelis than in the past, but in general this masks a still-strong level of patriotism and idealism among many. Where is this in Lebanon?
Has the Beirut Spring been forgotten already?
I think Michael is maybe hoping to get ME peace started on the Lebanon-Israel track.
Yes, I would like that very much, but I know it is not going to happen right now. I asked Hariri about this, whom I know as a fact wants peace with Israel. His answer was, “With Hezbollah in the country?”
The problem lies in the Arab polities and in Islam itself.
Yes and no. See above.
Larry: Now, we see in Hariri Jr.’s behavior that the Christians are basically 1) emigrated 2) dhimmized politically.
Hariri’s best allies in the country are Christians. And they are not second-class citizens. They have more than half the seats in the parliament.
Christians have the presidency, and the presidency is weaker than it used to be, but that’s because of what the Alawite regime in Syria did, not because of anything the Sunnis have done.
Michael, perhaps Christians have the voice you say within Lebanon. But the Lebanese as a whole are still small and fractured; and these fractured helped enable Hizbollah to emerge and now ‘dominate.’
I remember the Beirut Spring, and also that Bush and Rice essentially ignored it. Not really surprising to me, since Bush and Rice also pushed the Road Map, though Dubya was ambivalent about it. If Lebanon gets another chance, it will be after the next war, if and when the IDF weakens Hizb enough to let the ‘true’ Lebanese reclaim more turf. Of course, that assumes the Syrians will back off, but they won’t do that as long as the current regime exists.
Fine with me if a forceful Israeli response to the strategic threats arrayed against her lead to a better Lebanon. I don’t see such a strategy in the Israeli leadership today. I see Ehud Barak instead.
Larry: Fine with me if a forceful Israeli response to the strategic threats arrayed against her lead to a better Lebanon. I don’t see such a strategy in the Israeli leadership today.
I don’t either.
The Middle East will not be made a better place through proxy or guerrilla warfare, but through regime-change in Damascus and Tehran via revolution or otherwise, or at the very least regime isolation and weakening.
Interesting swastika-like Phalange symbol on the door. Isn’t this the symbol that a drunken loudmouthed Hitchens got into a tussle over not long ago? Are Muslims welcome here or are the revelers a Lebanese eqivalent of an Oye mob?
David,
That’s not a swastika, and yes Muslims and Jews are welcome there. I’ve been to that club with Muslims and Jews.
#30 David
I thought it was a stylized “aleph”
an important thing to remember about the lebanese is that they are highly adaptable. they take what they have, and make the best of it. sometimes this is not in long term best interests, eg. at the present: people are glad enough to have some measure of stability and security in their lives, so they ignore the creeping return of syrian hegemony. but it is also why the country has proven so resilient. people brush off the dust and get back to living.
in the long term, assuming both states survive long enough to see peace, this means that the lebanese will adapt very quickly to a state of peace with israel. if you doubt this, recall that the lebanese have forgiven far deeper and bloodier enmities within their own country in recent years — just look at the christian-druze reconciliation, for starters.
f: the lebanese will adapt very quickly to a state of peace with israel
I’m afraid it will take quite a lot longer in the south, but elsewhere, yes, definitely.
I’m for regime change, Michael. Looks like it will take The Big Showdown to bring it, though. I suspect that the Christian and Sunni militias would then go against the Hizbollah, though it’s really a guess.
Terry #15: This reference to the NY Times would also do well as an illustration of media bias in the Talkback section of Ynet. Thanks for including it.
There is no doubt that if I was 30 years younger, I would love the Beirut and Tel Aviv night life. But, alas, now I’m an old fart. But hold it…do they have night life from 8 to 10 in the mornings? Do the clubs have emergency oxygen tanks?
Yes, they do, Dikehopper. It’s from 10 to noon and usually takes place in beach lounge chairs. The flies can be tough, though.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hDXUnBMs3I0xU8Cc6M7ykdGvI_tg
Harleys hit Beirut….
A few years ago, Anthony Bourdain was having a book signing in Montreal, where I happened to be visiting. I found out about it at the last minute and made a huge effort to get there before he left, (and got a speeding ticket in the process) just to get a chance to ask him if he was planning to go back to Beirut. I was hoping he would, since it is such a great city. I was also hoping to recommend some locals as tour guides.
I got there in time, and he was a typically sociable author until I mentioned Beirut. He got pale, said that he was definitely not planning to go back, signed my book quickly and sort of disappeared into the crowd.
But I guess he changed his mind. He and his crew were just recently back in Beirut! (I think the show airs tonight)
Mary, thanks for the head’s up re. Bourdain. I enjoy his show and I’ll be sure to watch it tonight.
His show aired last week, not sure if tonight’s will be a repeat. I saw it and it seemed like he had a fantastic time. It was kind of a “redemption” episode in that he finally got the chance to do the show he originally set out to do.
To #18: Spineless and a disgusting post.
To #21: Are you serious? Lebanon has gone thru 10x more turmoil and destruction than Israel often at the hands of the Israelis (amongst other factions of course).
Bourdain got a lot of PR mileage out of his 2006 experience in Beirut. He should be thankful to Lebanon for inviting him to that war. Not everyone was invited. Plenty of other bloggers and media people missed the PR kick.
Sorry. Confused the symbol with the rotor of the Syrian Nazis (SSNP). Might have done the same with a cross-section of a Wankel engine.
First of all, I appreciate this post and I understand exactly what MJT is getting at. That said–and this has nothing to do with the larger picture–I pretty much hate clubs.
Clubs–all over the world, from what I’ve experienced and can tell–seem to attract douche bags, who are almost all identical wherever you go (the differences usually being language). The worst is when the bouncers have ear pieces, like they’re secret service agents. Wow, impressive. The music always sucks, the same unoriginal “unce-unce-unce-unce”- techno-crap.
I prefer dive-bars that play tried and true rock-n-roll and pop favorites, where you can hear what your friends are saying as you talk about whatever over a pitcher of beer. Okay, then once you are drunk maybe hit a club …
Anyway, if I ever get the chance to hit the Beirut nightlife scene, I think I’d prefer a place called … Dive Bomber? Something like that.
Clubs
Schmlubs
Bleh
No riddle to that S-5000. I do agree with the Studio 54 sentiment, living here in NYC. Dives can be great.
Want to change the world? Build floor to ceiling virtual walls that correspond with other walls around the world. People in one club can walk up to it and whisper to someone else at another virtual wall. Micro speakers and mics are embedded all over the LED surface. So people in Beirut can dance with people in NYC. This technology exists. Perhaps Spielberg or Gates can help. Of course I suppose the NSA will want to monitor the conversations…..
One in Tel A viv would be great. Imagine that….
And speaking of the NSA, just a footnote: http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/08/codebreaker-death/
David, that a bit different…. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BCgl2uumlI
Sam, perhaps you are right. But the percentage of Israel’s ‘contribution’ to the damage incurred in Lebanon would be 0 if the Arab world, including Lebanon, had accepted Israel’s existence in 1948, or before 1967, or after…(and so on).
http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC05.php?CID=3242
Future of US military assistance to Lebanon
I hope Iraq does, indeed see a New Dawn beginning Wednesday, for the sake of the fallen, the families, coalition and Iraqi, and the future of the Middle East.
The last US unilateral combat operation in Iraq was in May 2009, so the test of training and Iraqi resolve continues.
To #47: You are being way too simplistic by saying the Arabs should have just accepted the creation of a state that displaced millions of fellow Arabs.
You could also say that there would have been no damage in Lebanon if post Israels creation, the Palestinians were not simply rooted from their homes, forcing some to resettle in Lebanon thereby upsetting the sectarian balances which led to the civil war where Israel definitely left its mark…
#50 Sam.
Where do you get the ”millions” of displaced Arabs number? At most, 700,000 Arabs were displaced, fled at the urging of their own leaders for the most part. Israel received between 800,000/850,000 Jewish refugees expelled from Arab countries, they were soon integrated into Israeli society. Who is a refugee after 60 years? Only Arabs. If the Arabs had not attacked Israel in 1948, there wouldn’t have been ANY displaced Arabs. This BS about refugees is the fault of the Arabs who refuse to integrate them in their countries. Look at how Lebanon treats Palestinian refugees.
Why would a few thousand Palestinian refugees upset any sectarian balance? I’ll give you the answer – primitive tribalism. There is no Lebanon, it’s just a collection of tribes & sects, the Lebanese identity comes a distant second.
I notice you don’t blame Syria for any of Lebanon’s woes. Why is that? You don’t blame Iran either, how curious.
And to change the subject while we wait for Mr Totten’s next post, here’s something interesting to read & think about.
Daled Amos blog: ”Fjordman: Islam, the Greeks & the Scientific Revolution.”
http://daledamos.blogspot.com/2010/08/fjordman-islam-greeks-and-scientific.html
Very insightful historical analysis.
The ever wordy Norwegian Fjordman…
He who claims to be against neo-nazi’s, yet is published by the Belgian neo-nazi mouthpiece Brussel’s Journel.
He who claims to be against racism, yet openly calls for a race war and wholesale ethnic cleansing of non-whites.
He who claims to be pro-Israel, yet never acknowledges that Israel is not a “white” nation or that Islam is not a race.
I warned Captain a couple of threads ago that he would not like the traditional European response to such issues. Fjordman is a sophisticated face of that European far-right response, an overly verbose attempt to justify racist hatred.
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=27911_Fjordmans_Dramatic_Exit(s)&only
There are a disturbing number of Jewish and pro-Israel bloggers who do not seem to realize what Fjordman and the rest of the “whites only” European far right represent.
FAIR
WARNING,
R
MJT: I think Michael is maybe hoping to get ME peace started on the Lebanon-Israel track.
Yes, I would like that very much, but I know it is not going to happen right now. I asked Hariri about this, whom I know as a fact wants peace with Israel. His answer was, “With Hezbollah in the country?”
Lebanon, even without Hizbullah, isn’t strong enough to lead a peace initiative, IMHO.
Way to be vigilant Render….
Something Spencer and Geller should be more aware of too….
http://chattahbox.com/world/2010/08/30/israel-preparing-for-syria-attack-against-hezbollah-arms-depot/
http://www.jpost.com/Features/InThespotlight/Article.aspx?id=186542
Also Israel may build 800 wings for the US F-35 in a deal worth 4 billion.
Semite5000 -
You told me you’re coming to Israel, so here’s a good link for the Tel Aviv night scene:
http://www.drunkintelaviv.co.il/
If you don’t speak Hebrew, you can go to the English page, although it’s not as updated. Sorry if I’ve posted this before, I know I’ve posted it elsewhere.
Blues-based rock never really caught on here in Israel, and I’ve never found a roadhouse-type club like the one you describe. Israel has a great jazz scene, though, and Israelis are actually quite influential in this now fading art form. The two biggest jazz clubs in New York are owned by Israelis.
On another subject, here’s an interesting article from that anarchist, left-wing rag Haaretz (read the article and tell me if you still really hold to that absurd description). http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/strenger-than-fiction/strenger-than-fiction-peace-talks-are-sure-to-fail-but-what-will-be-the-consequences-1.311276
Very short odds on success in Washington, and yet it is impossible for me to believe that the parties – Obama in particular – would have bothered to hold talks that were so clearly doomed to fail. That’s why I think there are some hidden deals in the works, but time will tell.
#53 Render.
A lot of people think that the guy from Little Green Footballs has lost his mind.
I think it’s an unfair characterization of Fjordman to call him a racist or a pseudo-Nazi. The far-right neo-Nazis actually are very anti-Israel & very often support Islamists. Fjordman is not in that catagory, as say Le Pen in France. Would you call Geert Wilders a racist?
#56 Mark C.
Mr Fayyad has almost no support. Both Hamas & many in Fatah would like to get rid of him. If memory serves, his political party won only two seats in the Palestinian parlement. The only reason Fayyad is around is because of donor pressure from the US & the EU – he insures the continuous flow of revenue from the suckers. The Arabs are smarter – they give almost nothing to the Palestinians. This is another attempt to find a Palestinian ”moderate” – like looking for unicorns & chimeras. This is just more day-dreaming.
I think you’re wrong Terry. Perhaps the Far Left and the Far Right seem a blur these days. It is true that the neostrassterists (socialists in theory) have become almost fascists and unite Right and Left together. Yes, Right wing fascists have been rather antisemitic, but not all those nationalists on the Right side sport this crap. Fjordman and others certainly walk the line. So we must become more vigilant, yes? I wouldn’t exactly put Wilders in Penn’s camp.
Here’s a load of hot steamy…..from the BBC
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11135500
The “talks” are perhaps an opportunity to allow Iran and others to show themselves to be the obstructionists they are. Then Obama can change his blame game. I bet the French this morning are itching to kick Iran’s ass.
#56 Mark C.
Here’s a good article about Mr Fayyad.
RubinReports: ”PA Prime Minister Sets Forward Palestinian Strategy: Independence, Not Peace.”
http://rubinreports.blogspot.com/2010/04/pa-prime-minister-sets-forward.html
A lot of the chatter about the one-state solution or a unilateral declaration are nothing but the usual scare tactics from the Left.
#59 Maxtrue.
A load of hot steamy …….
Quite an accurate description, what you expect from the BBC these days?
Terry (#57)
Whatever happened to the mind of that guy from LGF is utterly irrelevent.
That LGF thread was from 2007. I realize that its over 700 comments long but if you search that LGF thread you’ll find that I’m in there, and in all of the other related LGF threads that are linked in that LGF post.
Nothing that I stated (#53) about Fjordman and his voluminous rantings is untrue.
http://render64.wordpress.com/2009/09/14/say-again-all-after-incinerators/
NOTHING,
R
“Islam should become the religion of all of Europe, women are more respected in Libya than in the West” Qaddafi’s Italian tour.
These things are stabbing the collective unconscious of Europe. The question is whether it will wake.
Don’t despair, we have the Freemasons….
http://www.memritv.org/clip_transcript/en/2586.htm
Well, the Freemasons did a poor job saving the Raptor. Maybe Obama will reconsider and let Israel build more than wings for an inferior jet. Or perhaps get some vistol version F-35s. And to be clear about the differences between the two: http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2009-01.html
Sam, like all of Israel’s many enemies, you content yourself with lies. In the end, almost no Lebanese take responsibility for Lebanon and their own crimes and errors. It’s always Israel. While Terry is in the ballpark, the actual number of Arab refugees from the Land of Israel in 1947-49 is probably half a million. Of these, even the most critical historians (those who are not outright propagandists) can not show that more than 1/3 (about 170,000) were forced out. The rest left obediently on the instructions of the Arab League, etc., and in the footsteps of their village leaders. Meanwhile, as Terry says, close to a million ME Jews were driven from their homes, often in the wake of murderous pogroms (sorry, I don’t know the Arabic word for ‘pogrom’). Israel absorbed the refugees; Lebanon and other Arab states or ‘states’ did not. There is proof of Jewish leaders like Golda Meir imploring thousands of Arabs in Haifa not to flee north to Lebanon. She was ignored. And the entire history of the position of the Jewish Agency/pre-state gov’t was consistent with an effort to minimize, not maximize, Arab dislocation.
Lebanese in particular, because of the humiliation of the weakness of their ‘state’ vis-a-vis other Arab societies, have latched onto the presence of Arab refugees from ‘Palestine’ as a great excuse for the total political failure of Lebanese society. My former Christian Lebanese-American friend, a supporter of the Christian militias, also surprised me by letting me know that Israel would have to absorb the ‘Palestinians’ in peace, because the Lebanese would not.
I am glad for this exchange; all such exchanges demonstrate the vast differences in attitude and sense of responsibility between Arab nations and Israel (for all her internal flaws). Good luck with blaming us for everything.
“Beirutis developed an admirable joie de vivre during the civil war in defiance of all the death and destruction around them. The Lebanese like to brag that they partied and danced throughout the war. I don’t know how true that really is, but they say it’s true, and it’s at least half-believable”
It is definitely true that lebanese went through the diificult war years with the
same mentality that has always characterized them and that is the passion for
wanting to live and make the most our of it! Even when there was a lull in the
fighting or shelling, it was not unusual to see people flock to night clubs to party
and have fun as if the war had already been forgotten! The all time best seller “From Beirut to Jerusalem” by Thomas L. Friedman sums it all up in a nutshell!
Terry, I hear the French and British might be combining their navies.
Please note Malley was thrown out of Obama camp during the primary because of his Hamas talk. Like Power who called HRC a monster, “they’re back”. So here is another take on “talks” http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/08/29/direct_talks_deja_vu
As for Iran, they are at it again: http://ncr-iran.org/content/view/8799/1/ Well call Bruni a whore, stone more people to death? A good bet would be Iran’s getting Hizb and Hamas to derail “talks”. With Dems running from Pelosi and GOP 10 point national favorites running on a plank of nothing, I rather think Obama is cornered.
So let’s see if Netanyahu can better Obama and snatch defeat from victory….
Michael & present company, you might enjoy reading P. J. O’Rourke’s “A Ramble Through Lebanon”. It’s from the mid-80s, but he describes the same devil-may-care attitude as Michael noted here.
Downtown on the Corniche you can lunch at the St. Georges Hotel, once Beirut’s best. The hotel building is now a burned shell, but the pool club is still open. You can go waterskiing here, even during the worst fighting.
I asked the bartender at the pool club, “Don’t the waterskiers worry about sniper fire?”
“Oh, no, no, no,” he said, “the snipers are mostly armed with automatic weapons—these are not very accurate.”
Linky: A Ramble Through Lebanon
A ramble through Lebanon http://www.groveatlantic.com/grove/bin/wc.dll?groveproc~genauth~568~1045~EXCERPT
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11141774
Israeli academics won’t cross the green line.
From PJ O’Rourke “The gun barrels all have the bluing worn off the ends as though from being rubbed against people’s noses. The interesting thing about staring down a gun barrel is how small the hole is where the bullet comes out, yet what a big difference it would make in your social schedule. Not that people shoot you very often, but the way they flip those weapons around and bang them on the pavement and poke them in the dirt and scratch their ears with the muzzle sights … Gun safety merit badges must go begging in the Lebanese Boy Scouts.”
They don’t point guns at tourists in Lebanon anymore, at least not in the sunni/Christian areas, but soldiers do carelessly handle (and drop!) their guns.
In Jordan, they do stick guns in tourists’ faces at borders and unexpected taxi checks, which was surprising.
#65 Larry in the Silicon.
I’ve read several estimates, the 700,00 number is the one that came to mind. But, the exact number doesn’t really matter, after 60 yrs. no one is a refugee. Of course, the bottom line is we just don’t want them, it’s not our problem. You have to laugh though, Sam is concerned over Lebanon’s delicate demographic sectarian balance – nu, so what about our demographic balance?
What immediately struck me when I first came to Israel is that I could almost always recognize Moroccans here. At least, they look like Moroccans but for the majority, there’s nothing Moroccan left, the young people don’t speak either French or Moroccan Arabic, many are of mixed Moroccan & something else parents, at most, they still know a few Moroccan foods. But, what I’m getting at is that they are completely integrated, they’re Israeli. So, why couldn’t Arab countries do the same?
He is ‘concerned’ about Israel’s claim to have a right to exist. Because the existence of Israel, which is a sobering fact for many, including Jews, confounds the resort to fantasy that infects so much of humanity – including those not in the spheres of Arab and Islamic culture. I think that’s it.
Arab countries can’t absorb the refugees – those who are actually descended from them as opposed to the pseudo-refugees within the UNRWA stats – because ultimately it would be an abrogation of Middle Eastern and Islamic principles about blame, shame and the maintenance of superiority over the dhimmi. A further point, many of the Christian Arabs who are supposed to be our allies in places like Lebanon have internalized many of these attitudes about Jews, or learned a combination of traditional Catholic and Arab attitudes.
‘Thanks G-d for the IDF’ – if I were Sabra, I would say it just like that. Good day.
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0810/Hillary_Clinton_warned_us.html?showall
Oh she must be laughing over this one. Yes, for communicating species, the narrative is an important tool….
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/140741.html
of course Iran has asked Lebanon to follow the path of the Palestinians. I’m serious, just Google.
Debka reports Hamas gunmen kill four near Hebron. As I said, Hamas will seek to destroy talks and this could very well be the tipping point for Obama. One of the dead was a pregnant mother. The convergence of bad polling numbers, Iranian and their proxies obstructing peace and the general global mood, make it very hard on Abbas.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/top/all/7179682.html
Of course there is the suspected bomb plot by AQ, foiled by the Dutch. Yes, these things are beginning to stab at the collective unconscious. I know most don’t expect any Obamian backbone, but I would not be surprised if something happened before November. The question is whether this is with both Netanyahu and Obama on the same page.
If the Arabs really backed up their blather about Arab unity the Sunni Palestinian Arabs in 47-48 could have been easily settled in Iraq, where there was/is relatively a lot of land, and where the Sunni minority has always been uneasy about the majority Shia. Sunni Palestinians would have helped level the demographic balance, and the Sunni rulers at the time could have done it despite possible Shia objections.
But that would have been the rational and more human thing to have done.
http://pajamasmedia.com/ronradosh/2010/08/31/the-shame-of-brooklyn-college/
Gees,….this one is for you Paul. Completely pathetic, but the community is not happy. Note that Obama’s buddy Khalidi wrote a praising blurb for this book. I’m surprised Ayers didn’t as well. Of course, the Press said NOTHING about this disgrace:
“Among the names they list a U.S. political prisoner, Sirhan Sirhan. That’s right. This college professor, who is just a guy from the neighborhood who never meant to hurt anybody, who bombed the Pentagon, the Capitol, New York City police headquarters, dedicated his book (Prairie Fire) to the man who assassinated Robert F. Kennedy.” http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,445556,00.html
So the Kennedy family said nothing to the man who befriended Ayers. I think Robert rolled over in his grave on that one. The Press rolled over a long time ago…..
Maybe Prairie Fire will become mandatory reading at Brooklyn U too…..
Brooklyn College that is….I don’t want to offend anyone.
I agree that we Middle East Watchers/Foreign Policy Geeks, for lack of a better term to describe us, need to be extremely wary regarding the likes of Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer, and others. Their hatred of Muslims trumps everything; everything is black and white, and as a result they’re willing to get into bed with some really ugly figures and movements. Indeed, Jewish Geller is actually palling around with British Neo-Nazis, which needless to say is absolutely appalling beyond words; the enemy of my enemy is my friend even if my enemy hates me. Wtf?! Charles Johnson of LGF has been indispensable in reporting this issue.
Yes, LGF has changed. But so, too, has the political tone in this country since Obama was elected and as the economy continues to limp along. Kudos to Johnson for reevaluating his views based off of a radically changing political and social scene. That doesn’t mean Johnson has done a 180; for example he’s still staunchly pro-Israel. Go through the LGF archives during the flotilla incident and you’ll see what I mean. If he’d blog about it, I suspect his hawkish views on countries like Iran, the PA, Syria and other players such as Hamas and Hezbollah have not changed.
I share Johnson’s opinion that the Republican party, not on a whole, but at many, many levels, has really gone off the hinges. What concerns me most are the constant attempts to inject religion into public schools; a glaring example being the constant attempts to put Creationism on par with Darwin’s Theory of Evolution. It’s not the Democrats that keep trying to inject religion into America. I fear that some of us in the pro-Israel community, as well as people that generally eschew the simplistic far left view of US history and foreign policy, are too quick to glam onto certain politicians that may say things we like to hear regarding for example, the realities of the Middle East and dangers of the radical regimes.
That said, Johnson’s near obsessive blogging on the Ground Zero-Mosque controversy is bothering me. He’s correct to point out the myriads of Muslim hating bigots who are crawling out of the woodwork and who would probably oppose any mosques anywhere in America. He’s correct to point out that Rauf and co. have every constitutional right to build the mosque near Ground Zero. I’m disappointed, however, that he has failed to ask what I think is the most salient question in this whole cluster-f*ck: why does Rauf and co. want to build a mosque in an area that they must have known would cause this controversy?
Oops: the enemy of my enemy is my friend even if my enemy hates me.
I meant so say something more along the lines of “The enemy of my enemy is my friend even if he considers me his enemy to begin with.”
Oh, MarkC, thanks for the recommendations re. Tel Aviv. As I tend to do, I’ll find my social niche and the places I’ll want to frequent. I’m glad to hear about the jazz scene. I’ll take that any day over “unce-unce-unce-unce” at the “Deesko Techim.” My Hebrew is weak now, but I have a good base and I’ve been studying and will continue to do so.
ENEMIES
AND
FRIENIMIES
Or maybe: The enemy of my enemy is my friend even if the enemy of the latter enemy hates me and should therefore be my enemy.
Oy, I’ve given myself a headache.
Islam is not just a religion. It is also a political system. Or at the very least, it is a religion with political ambitions. In terms of its collectivism and repression and hatred of the individual, it is not unlike communism. Remember the word ‘Islam’ literally means ‘submission’. It doesn’t mean ‘peace’. ‘Salam’ means ‘peace’. Now can you think of an idea that is less American than the idea of submission, to anything? I challenge you to find one.
So if reds had destroyed the World Trade Center during the Cold War, say in the 1980s, should we have let the Communist Party of America build an education center near the site? I think you know the answer. They have the right to do it but they should not.
#81 Semite5000
Re jazz scene in Israel – you just missed main jazz event of the year – Red Sea Jazz festival – but, if you are interested in local talents – there’s Shablul Jazz Club in Tel Aviv old harbor.
Joe, I agree. It is a political question. While those who attacked on 9/11 were AQ and not even from Afghanistan or Iraq, what threatens us is a bit more expansive than Bin Laden. It is rather exclusively Muslim and derives some significant public support based on the diversity of clerical and organizational opinion regarding the true interpretation of the Koran which on a literal level seems rather at odds with our social and political sensibilities.
It would be like those communists claiming that while they do not themselves advocate the violent overthrow of Democracy (some even serve in the DOD), they have no Ummic responsibility to reject the ideological claims of the Kremlin and Bejing. I doubt they would succeed in convincing Americans it was all a matter of free speech and expression, instead of a likely symbol of those who attacked us and who today advocate a holy jihad against Liberal Democracy. That is after destroying the State of Israel.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/7973649/Gaddafi-Europe-will-turn-black-unless-EU-pays-Libya-4bn-a-year.html
While some might knock Spencer, this is rather appalling, isn’t it? Qaddafi use to be the crazy nutjob. Actually, his underground tunnel system was my first run in with the Blind Press. The Liberals for years denied Qaddafi was building anything sinister. Any talk of pre-emption was considered mentally unbalanced. Their heads were stuck in the mud as were they towards the Kremlin’s intentions.
The shocker: Reagan told Qaddafi we would not let him build WMD in his tunnels of death and tried to terminate him and his family. It was a wake up call to say the least. Under Bush, Qaddafi even more threatened came clean and admitted the Republicans had been right all along. He was building a WMD central. Even today, many Liberal intellectuals would like to sweep this under the rug. I was astonished the West was so quick to rehabilitate him, as I never will trust the man. England already paid a bribe. Again, I don’t trust Qaddafi or his son.
Here Q reveals what despot and Mullah alike proclaim. Their Islamic customs, mindset driven by Koranic attitudes is very real and alive. Welcome the new Islam a la Quaddafi. Remember his Green Power? There is a range of egomania the run the gamut between fascist and semi-secular to clerical and fundamental. Spencer and his friends do point out that either through conversion, demographic domination, sweet deals and even violence, Muslims will encroach on the interests of the West. This is both religious and political. Sure many Muslims are not under this control, especially here in America. Spencer argues however this Islamic impulse is irreconcilable with Western values and he will be a frenemy to anyone in the cause to defeat it. The forcast may be correct regardless of Spencer and Geller’s friends unless we pressure moderates Muslims to mitigate this impending conflict in a much more forceful way to date before the majority feels comfortable instead of threatened.
It is perhaps a matter of time before China, Russia and the US converge in their shared contempt. I assume the hidden vulnerabilities within the domestic dynamics of all three, make alliance difficult for some time to come. Unless of course, Armageddon changes their minds…
#33 michael — i think you would be surprised (assuming hezbollah and its ilk were no longer around to threaten people, of course). i’d imagine the south, beirut and mt. lebanon would all warm up fairly quickly in such a scenario, with the north and bekaa taking much longer.
semite5000,
You wrote: “…the likes of Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer, and others. Their hatred of Muslims trumps everything…”
That is a significant mis-characterization by you, and suggests an inability in you to separate Muslims as people, from Islam, the ideology, as well as blind belief in propaganda by you.
Spencer is opposed to the misogynistic, supremacist and totalitarian aspects of Islam. Unfortunately those aspects are essential to the texts of Islam and the example of the Muslim’s believed prophet. Spencer does not hate Muslims in general, although he does despise the behavior of many Muslims — that behavior often loudly and self-righteously proclaimed by those very Muslims as truly islamic. Nor is Geller “palling around with British Neo-Nazis”. Both of those assertions are perversions of truth — propaganda, which you have swallowed hook, line and stinker.
del,
My point wasn’t to discuss radical Islam or moderate Islam; it was about the folly of allying with extremist groups simply because said groups are anti-Muslim (often flirting with white supremacy and or ultra-nationalists.
Yes, Quaddafi, most of the Saudi royals, the Syrian leadership and most Gulf state oil ticks are our enemies. Although our government, our media and our state department work overtime to pretend that these enemies are friends and allies, most Americans know better.
But Quaddafi, the Saudi royals, etc. are not representative of Muslims or Islam. The Islamist mob (represented by these leaders) and the terrorists they support are not a grassroots movement. These terrorists do not move amongst the people as a fish swims in the sea. Nearly all of their support comes from petrodollars, drug money and various murder/extortion schemes.
In his review of Mitchell Bard’s book about the influence of the Saudi lobby, Lee Smith writes:
In describing AIPAC’s Arab cousin, Bard draws some useful comparisons between the two lobbies, which are not as similar as one might imagine from his book’s title. AIPAC is a grassroots organization funded by U.S. citizens that represents the broad sentiment of Christians and Jews who are interested in one issue—protecting and promoting the U.S.-Israel relationship. The Arab lobby, by comparison, has little organic U.S. backing and divides its efforts between two causes—oil and Palestine. The former is managed in Washington by what Bard calls the “petrodiplomatic complex” of former U.S. diplomats and intelligence officers, politicians, and defense executives. Funded by oil companies, the weapons industry, and Arab energy producers, mainly Saudi Arabia, it enjoys virtually unlimited financial resources. For instance, AIPAC’s annual operating budget is $60 million a year—pocket change to a Saudi prince, like Alwaleed Bin Talal, who in 2005 gave $20 million apiece to Georgetown and Harvard.
Yes, Muslims tolerate these monsters and they work with them, but so does our government (Republican and Democrat). So does our media. If we’re going to cherry-pick the Koran, we should also cherry-pick foreign policy documents, oil company records, university financing records and the records of all of the news reports that were changed after complaints from Saudi financiers.
My biggest problem with Spencer and Geller’s routine is that they create the impression that the current Islamist war against the west (and everyone else) is a grassroots kind of thing. It’s not.
I have nothing against legally owned firearms, babies (well, most babies), and Jesus (Jesus is just alright with me; I don’t believe he was the messiah, but it sounds like he was a righteous dude). That said, this type of political t-shirt doesn’t sit well with me.
REPUBLICAN BIG TENT
GETTING SMALLER
I have nothing against legally owned firearms, babies (well, most babies), and Jesus (Jesus is just alright with me; I don’t believe he was the messiah, but it sounds like he was a righteous dude). That said, this type of political t-shirt doesn’t sit well with me.
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/37068_Palin-_Babies_-_Guns_-_Jesus
REPUBLICAN BIG TENT
GETTING SMALLER
Del (#88) – Wanna bet?
Here is Pamela Geller re-printing a BNP press release in full on her blog in 2006.
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2006/02/painful_europes.html
“News article filed by BNP news team”
“To date the BNP website is the only British publication which carries the cartoons.”
Seeing as Pamela refused to answer me either time that I asked her (on LGF in ’07) about that BNP press release on her blog, perhaps you could explain it? Perhaps one of you can explain why over four years later, its still there on her blog? A Jew quoting from British neo-nazi’s in 2006 and hanging around with Belgian neo-nazi’s in 2007…
Maybe the truth is already perverted enough?
At one time (07-08) Spencer’s JW comment section was packed to the gills with open BNP members and supporters. I don’t know if that’s still true today, but I was there then, I saw it with my own eyes. And I never went back.
I want you to scroll back up to my comment #53 and #63 and read the links contained within them. Take not that almost everybody commenting in that LGF link has since been banned from LGF.
http://babbazeesbrain.blogspot.com/2007/11/now-is-dewinter-of-our-discontent.html
http://babbazeesbrain.blogspot.com/2007/11/weapons-of-mass-deception.html
http://babbazeesbrain.blogspot.com/2007/11/nazis-rune-everything.html
http://noblesseoblige.org/2007/12/13/the-sound-and-the-fury-ii/
Geller and Spencer were at this (linked below) 2007 conference with Fillip DeWinter and Bart Debie (of VB). Bart Debie was in charge of security. That’s what set Charles Johnson off, and when.
http://counterjihadeuropa.wordpress.com/2007/10/23/counterjihad-brussels-2007-conference/
===
If you are a Jew and you are hanging out with known neo-nazi’s then you better have a damn good explanation. But you don’t have to explain it to me, I don’t want to hear it. Explain it to six million dead, when you see them next.
I will have much to answer for when it is my time to be answering for all things, but being allied with or even willingly in the same room with known neo-nazis will never, ever be one of those things.
6,000
DEGREES
CELSIUS,
R
semite5k,
If the simple minded on the Left misinterpret such a shirt, so be it. I’ll rephrase it more specifically, and accurately:
Protect the rights of the unborn and those born handicapped.
Protect the 2nd Amendment.
Respect religious belief; the word last Saturday’s speakers used that I heard was “faith”, not “christianity”.
This from an atheist and Sarah Palin admirer, me. As I’ve suggested to Max, read her Facebook essays to appreciate a thoughtful conservative (notice I didn’t say “Republican”) perspective.
And let’s not debate belief, political or otherwise; that wastes time and energy better spent elsewhere.
My Renderism,
DIFFERENT
STROKES…
The most inspiring segment of the Lincoln Memorial rally for me was Sarah Palin’s introduction of three extraordinary disabled American military heroes; such Americans leave me feeling humbled and grateful every time.
You guys are funny. I understand what S-5000 was saying and of course what Del said.
Now here is what these guys say and I find it strange at best: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/02/opinion/02iht-edaslan.html
Paul, she once again butchered the deliver when speaking about equality. Those guys do humble one, don’t they?
Give me a link, Max. What I heard from Saturday’s rally didn’t butcher anything. Not someone’s cup of jo, fine.
And if I was to judge the Left by t-shirt signage…
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2006/02/painful_europes.html
“News article filed by BNP news team”
“To date the BNP website is the only British publication which carries the cartoons.”
BNP press release 2/2006 re-printed in full and with approval by Pamela Geller. Four years later, it’s still there on her blog.
===
http://uit.no/getfile.php?PageId=1410&FileId=1337
EDUCATE
YOURSELF,
R
Render,
Talk about money quotes…BNP leader Nick Griffin, page 6.
P- Yes, “they can put up with blacks, but…..”
R- One shit trades place with the other.
Same shit, different dance…..
Give
No
Quarter
http://www.wired.com/thisdayintech/?intcid=gnav
Max,
I hesitated to copy the quote, expecting Moderator wouldn’t be happy, plus it’s offensiveness is something I don’t want my name associated with, even this way.
Max,
Ah, Kelly Johnson and the Skunk Works team…; a lineup “The Boss” would have envied.
Render,
From that very article (page 7):
“The BNP has not found any support from the “Counter-Jihad” movement, indeed the mere
suggestion that it was involved in a Vlaams Belang-organised event, something that was
subsequently denied by VB, was enough to make one of the most prominent “Counter-Jihad”
figures say he would have no further dealings with the Belgium party23.”
Neither Spencer nor Geller are allied with the BNP, which remains a fascist-tainted organization. Geller seems to have posted that news release produced by the BNP in 2006 specifically to provide otherwise unavailable information about actions by the Swedish government. Her post is not an endorsement of the BNP. The fact that she did not subsequently send her own post “down the memory hole”, as so many bloggers do, shows her to have more integrity than most.
She can certainly be abrasive. If you don’t like her, fine. But to claim that she is “palling around with British neo-nazis” is false.
…and people wonder why “that guy from LGF” flipped his wig…
===
Del- Yes, and that cite note is dated from 2008. Mr. Spencer seems to have changed his mind on the subject several times since 2007.
I didn’t say that Pamela Geller “palled around with British neo-Nazis” (that was S-5000). I proved beyond any shadow of a doubt that Pamela Geller had been re-printing BNP press releases on her own blog (which seems rather endorsing to me, whatever the reason). Re-printing BNP press releases is no positive measure of integrity, especially for a Jew (noting that Robert Spencer has pulled his own posts on several occasions).
I also know that both Geller and Spencer, as well as more then a few other people who should know better, had been “palling around” with Belgian neo-Nazis that year (2007).
http://counterjihadeuropa.wordpress.com/2007/10/23/counterjihad-brussels-2007-conference/
So it was, in fact, a Vlaams Belang/Gates of Vienna blog – organized event (something else that had been denied at one point). And Vlaams-Belang is, without a doubt, a “fascist-tainted” (such a quaint way to minimize people who are Holocaust denying neo-Nazis and racists just one generation away from the first post-war brown shirts) organization. And that event was, in fact, attended by Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer, among many others who should have known better but did not. Note that one of VB’s co-leaders, Fillip DeWinter as well as VB head of security Bart Debie were also, unsurprisingly, in attendance along with VB official Phillip Claeys.
http://render64.wordpress.com/2009/09/14/say-again-all-after-incinerators/
Fillip DeWinter was joined by his fellow co-leader Frank Vanhecke that same year (2007) in a visit to the US. During that visit the two of them attended a conference held by the Robert Taft club, met with Pat Buchanan, and appeared on a white racist radio show called “the political cesspool.”
Sound like people who are friendly to Jews and Israel to you?
http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw2007/belgium.html
===
I was there (LGF) for all of that, I am extremely familiar with all of the excuses, the desperate attempts to pretend it didn’t happen, and the vain attempts to minimize who and what Belgian VB is and always has been. You are very unlikely to come up with an excuse that I haven’t read already.
I don’t care if a person is abrasive, online or not. I don’t like people who hang out with neo-Nazi’s. I don’t like people who defend, endorse, quote from, or speak highly of neo-Nazis. I especially don’t like Jews who hang out with neo-nazis and racists, for any reason.
THERE’S A
WORD FOR
THAT,
R
del – the Atlas article that Render linked to was describing how the Swedish government shut down a website run by the Swedish Nationalist Party, the “Sweden Democrats.” The website was shut down because of a Mohammed cartoon posted there. Pamela Geller was objecting to that kind of government intervention – but she acknowledged that the nationalist Sweden Democrats were not just Nazis, they were involved in violent attacks:
Eurabia – a.k.a. Yuribbiya – has just taken a big step forward. Today the Swedish government ordered the shutting down of an internet site that has published one of the Muhammad cartoons. The website belongs to a small,Sweden_1 nationalist party, the Swedish Democrats, with deep roots in Sweden’s violent 1980s neo-Nazi movemement. Their very existence – and the fact that they have seats in more than 20 local legislatures – is bad enough. Now they will become martyrs of freedom of speech and possibly catapult into the national parliament in the elections in September.
That was in 2006. In 2007 Geller said:
The rapid Islamisation of Europe must be fought. In order to fight it, political parties must be engaged. If not, how then to effect change? I will make the case for the Europeans desperate to save their country(s). I did research (and continue to) and see the ghosts but VB or more particularly the Swedish Democrats have done nothing in recent years that I need to worry about…I can’t be held captive to past associations. That’s like the left repeatedly running the pic of Rumsfeld and Saddam back in the 80s. Every party, every person, everywhere has past associations that are irrelevant to what’s happening now. Hell, I was once a Democrat.
In July 2010, Robert Spencer was invited to Sweden by the Sweden Democrats, the “nationalist party… with deep roots in Sweden’s violent 1980s neo-Nazi movemement.”
As I said before, when Geller and Spencer claim that “Islam” is the enemy, they are implying that anyone who follows Islam is the enemy. They’re also creating the delusion that a massive, grassroots Islamist/Sharia takeover of the world is imminent. This gives their followers the impression that they should ally with anyone who will fight this imaginary army, even known Nazis who haven’t “done [anything] in recent years” to worry about.
But there is no grassroots army of Muslims who plan to impose sharia on the world. Islamist organizations like CAIR, Hizb-ut Tahrir and the Muslim Brotherhood do hope to do that, but if they fail, they hope to get rich soaking wealthy Saudis and profiting from drug sales and extortion. These are top down organizations, supported by government leaders and wealthy oil ticks – who are working with our government and with governments around the world to get special treatment for their ‘brothers’ in the MB, CAIR and Hizb-ut Tahrir, the most politically extreme and criminally connected (and loudest) members of the community. Local Muslims don’t benefit at all from these political/criminal deals. They’re probably suffering from them as much as we are. Terrorism’s power in the west doesn’t flow from local Muslim communities, it comes from our governments’ alliances with powerful terror supporters.
Since our government (and governments around the world) are working with terror supporting states, they refuse to name our enemy in the war we’re supposed to be fighting. But groups like the Sweden Democrats are not afraid to name their imaginary enemy, the one they’ve been fighting all along, the ‘foreigners’. They’re not naming Jews now, and they keep their hatred of Americans under wraps, but most organizations understand “divide and conquer.”
Mary, that was excellent.
I think she has a point Del as does Render. I am not so much concerned by Geller and Spencer, but I don’t trust neo-nazis any more than I trust Qaddafi. Extreme groups tend to bullshit their way in tough PC times. They see a new Muslim scapegoat to replace the Jewish one. The Left struggle to vilify Israel so the Right embraces it.
I am more concerned what the center has to say.
Lest we forget that it hasn’t been all that long ago (1986) that Nick Griffin was begging money from Gaddafi and returned home with a load of little green books to sell instead.
That one-eyed pissant.
SPIT,
R
Mary Madigan,
What is the real Muslim “grassroots” which you refer to?
Are the people in Minnesota described in the following article, part of the “grassroots?”:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_muslims_at_the_fair
Muslims take to Minn. State Fair to repair image
By PATRICK CONDON, Associated Press Writer Patrick Condon, Associated Press Writer – Sat Sep 4, 10:11 am ET
FALCON HEIGHTS, Minn. – Despite the smells of fried dough and roasted meat wafting from the Minnesota State Fair, Salim and Zuleyha Ozonder were focused on the people who were leaving, not the food or festivities beckoning from across the street.
Each time a new wave of people exited, the young Minneapolis residents — who hadn’t eaten all day — tried to press into their hands a small, glossy card that read “Islam Explained” on one side. On the other, it had about 180 words of background on a religion whose adherents fear is being misunderstood by too many Americans as violent and depraved.
“You just want people to take the card, spend a minute reading it and say, ‘Oh. They’re not terrorists,’” said 27-year-old Zuleyha. She and her husband, like other Muslims, were fasting during daylight hours for the Islamic holy month of Ramadan…
Del – I think they’re proselytizing their religion. Christians and Muslims are supposed to encourage others to join their religion and/or see it in a good light.
Islam, like Christianity, is an imperialistic faith, with a history of bullying and cajoling people into joining their club. The grassroots (or non-elites) of the Muslim world seem to be pretty consistently in the ‘cajoling’ crowd, and the Islamist leaders who support terrorism are responsible for bullying not only the West but their fellow Muslims.
Attacking or criticizing “Islam” in an effort to stop the elites from supporting and profiting from terrorism is like trying to kill a hydra by kicking its toes. You’re just going to annoy the whole beast, you’ll make the situation worse and you won’t even come close to making it harmless.
The proselytizers at the Michigan state fair were representing the Islamic Circle of North America (ICNA).
Stealing shamelessly from Wiki…
===
“ICNA is reportedly allied with the organization of Jamaat-e-Islami in Pakistan and Bangladesh. Steven Emerson says that it has praised terror attacks, supports the imposition of shar’ia (the Islami code of law), and collects tax-deductible contributions (through charitable organizations that it has created) for Islamist causes.
In 1995, ICNA expressed “deep concern” over the arrest of Sami al-Arian. In 2006 al-Arian pleaded guilty to conspiracy to help a “specially designated terrorist” organization, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and was sentenced to 57 months in prison.
In July 2002 Anwar al-Awlaki, believed to be a senior talent recruiter and motivator for al-Qaeda who had contact with three of the 9/11 hijackers, the Fort Hood shooter, and the Christmas Day bombing suspect (Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab), spoke at a joint ICNA/MAS convention in Baltimore with Siraj Wahhaj.
Anwar al-Awlaki was not accused at the time of having any links to extremism, terrorism, or violence. After evidence was brought against al-Awlaki in 2010, the ICNA Shariah Council strongly denounced al-Awlaki’s views, actions, and connections to terrorism, repudiating his ideology as a “call of hate” and called upon American Muslims to reject al-Awlaki’s views.
ICNA was picketed in Texas in 2005 by ten anti-terrorism protesters who said it funds overseas terrorism, though its Dallas president said: “There’s no evidence to support their claims.”
In September 2007, Joe Kaufman who claims to be an investigative reporter who had written for national publications since 1995, wrote an article in which he reported that ICNA supported and financed terrorism. On December 9, 2009, five Muslim Americans, who would sometimes visit the ICNA Center in Arlington, Virginia, for prayers were detained in Pakistan during a police raid.
ICNA strongly condemned the Times Square attempt and immediately called for punishment to the fullest extext of the law for anyone who engages in terrorism.”
===
Mary – In principle I agree with you, but I have to point out that from this viewpoint the beast appears pretty damn annoyed already (and has since 1978).
Pro-Sharia Groups like ICNA (in spite of their denials), MAS, and CAIR are little more then the modern version of the pre-WW2 German-American Bund, and they are considerably larger in numbers then the Bund was at its height.
RECOGNITION,
R
Mary Madigan,
Spencer’s goal in criticizing Islam isn’t “to stop the elites from supporting and profiting from terrorism”. His intended audience is not the elites of Islam. His intended audience is rather non-Muslims, in order for non-Muslims to realize that Islam, as understood and preached and practiced by many if not most knowledgeable and involved Muslims, is not a benign-to-non-members-of-the-club faith.
If one reads the article I linked carefully, as I see Render did, one would notice that the people described are volunteers with ICNA, the Islamic Circle of America. The ICNA’s purpose is “to seek the pleasure of Allah through the struggle of Iqamat-ud-Deen [establishment of the Islamic system of life] as spelled out in the Qur’an and the Sunnah of [Muhammad].” That “struggle” is jihad (by dawah (proselytization) and words, rather than by sword, but with the same goal as other jihadists: reread the ICNA’s own purpose). The “Islamic system of life” is shariah, in all of its misogyny and hatred, for all. Everywhere on the planet. It is unfortunate, but that is the reality.
There is, practically, no functioning alternate opposed-to-shariah grass roots of involved Muslims. When Muslims take Islam-as-it-is-generally-understood in any of its sects, seriously, they must struggle for a goal similar to that of ICNA quoted above. Obviously, not all Muslims take Islam-as-it-is-generally-understood seriously. Some have their own private idiosyncratic beliefs. Many are simply undevout and irreligious. But there are even fewer imams, preachers, or local Muslim leaders who do not take Islam-as-it-is-generally-understood seriously. How could they not, and remain imams, preachers or leaders — especially when so many mosques are owned by groups such as the Saudi-funded and Muslim Brotherhood affiliated North American Islamic Trust?
If you know of imams, preachers or local leaders or a “grassroots” who are “religious” and yet oxymoronically opposed to shariah, please share. I have previously heard of “Muslims Against Shariah”, and the American Islamic Forum for Democracy. Unsurprisingly, both groups have more traction among non-Muslims than in the ummah.
Spencer’s goal in criticizing Islam isn’t “to stop the elites from supporting and profiting from terrorism”. His intended audience is not the elites of Islam. His intended audience is rather non-Muslims, in order for non-Muslims to realize that Islam, as understood and preached and practiced by many if not most knowledgeable and involved Muslims, is not a benign-to-non-members-of-the-club faith.
..and how do most of his followers process this information? Do they raise interesting questions about our foreign policy, the terrorist infrastructure and the involvement of various intelligence agencies in this network, do they criticize the Saudi influence over the ICNA, the Muslim Brotherhood, do they differentiate between Wahhabis, Kurdish Muslims, Bosnian Muslims and various Sufi sects – or do they just start hating Muslims?
If you take a quick look through the comments section of jihad watch, atlas, frontpage, etc, you’ll see it’s the latter. Here’s one comment written by Markos Apostolos that seems to have been elevated to the status of a post on Frontpage, titled “The Muslims are planning to invade the US …”
“The Muslims are planning to invade the US from within. They got approval from the New York City Mayor “Michael Bloomberg” and the official New York community to build a large Islamic complex and Mosque over ground zero. This is to worship Muhamed and to insight hatred of Christians and Jews and to organize mass murder from within the US. Muslims are advancing a bit by bit they start small and spread like locusts. They hit and run. They use mosques in Israel to launch rocket attacks against civilians. They will use the Mosque to show their contempt to the victims of 9-11. Islam Holy Book “The Quran” in the Repentance Surah Verse 29 states: “Fight who do not believe in ALLAH AND HIS PROPHET FROM THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK “CHRISTIANS AND JEWS” UNTIL THEY PAY THE JIZIAH (MONEY TO RANSOM THEMSELVES) WITH WILLING SUBMISSION, AND FEEL THEMSELVES SUBDUED. Muslims are commanded to fight and kill Christians and Jews according to the Quran. So allow them to build the Mosque so that they teach more of them to go ahead and execute mass murder..WAKE UP AMERICANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”
This comment was not out of line for the general frontpage thread. A short google search will show that Marcos is a regular commenter at Atlas S.
Another sort of comment that is echoed often on anti-GZ mosque posts – comments echoing Michael Berry (former Clear Channel boss) who said this during his radio show: “No, no, Tony, you can’t build a mosque at the site of 9/11. No, you can’t. No, you can’t. And I’ll tell you this — if you do build a mosque, I hope somebody blows it up…I hope the mosque isn’t built, and if it is, I hope it’s blown up, and I mean that.”
I used to have friendly disagreements with Robert Spencer about his tendency to blame Islam and to portray all Muslims as equivalent to Islamists. I have no interest in defending Islam as a religion or a political system. I find many aspects of the faith and the legal system to be repugnant, and if given a choice between being Muslim and being dead, I’d choose to be dead. I know many nice Muslims who are happy with their faith and who think the ICNA is a great place for weekend socials and Ramadan celebrations, and I have no reason to suspect that they’re in on any massive plot, but there are probably things that are going on that the majority doesn’t know about.
I’ve always believed that you can’t fight a war without properly identifying our enemy, the enemy’s strengths and our weaknesses.
Islam is not the enemy. Neither is the left. Our enemy is the terrorist infrastructure and our primary weakness is our alliance with the most murderous leaders of that infrastructure. Our alliance with them is their biggest strength.
But that’s just my opinion, and since Spencer and co. didn’t have much political power and many followers, it didn’t seem to be a big deal.
Now, people in positions of power are talking about bombing a mosque.
Hate is the ultimate WMD. Inspired by hate, their message spread by radio, Rwandan Hutus murdered hundreds of thousands of their neighbors. Hitler didn’t need tanks or nukes to murder millions of Jews, all he and his followers needed was hate. 9/11 was an act of war, inspired by contempt and hatred.
Many anti-jihadis condemn Muslims for not speaking out more against the violent extremists and Islamist hatred. They use this Muslim silence as proof that most Muslims agree with the Islamists.
Now that the anti-jihadis have potentially violent extremists and hatemongers within their own community, what do they plan to do about it? How do they plan to show the world that their message is about more than anger and hate?
Del – They’re out there, your moderates, and they are very definitely the majority by a large margin. They are also powerless in the face of an armed seventh century totalitarianism masked as theology.
Perhaps a bit of perspective…
The 1938 population of Nazi Germany was around seventy million people. Total Nazi party membership that same year was around three million.
Presently we are dealing with a population of 1.2 billion spread across most of the inhabited planet, of which at least 120 million are death loving freaks who are willing to throw acid in little girls faces, or pay somebody else to do it.
They (that tiny minority of 120 million) aren’t nearly as methodical as the Nazi’s were and they will never be as technologically proficient, (cell phone instructions will not be found in seventh century instruction manuals), but they are considerably more motivated. Nor will they will ever be anything close to as organized as the Nazi’s were, they’re too busy killing each other over who gets to be in charge of killing Jews. For the moment…
Robert Spencer’s (and others) words are used as a motivational tool by Osama bin Laden, called out by name. ObL seeks to unite the Islamic world. Like it or not, rightfully or wrongfully, Robert Spencer is motivating the enemy. I’m reasonably certain that Spencer is aware of that fact, I’m also aware that Spencer is making a decent living at what he’s doing. Draw your own conclusions…
We do not need that 120 million to become 250 million, or 500 million, or more.
The only real American counter-Jihadists are wearing US Army and USMC uniforms (and other uniforms). Slowly but surely, in spite of almost unbelievably inept and just plain incompetent political leadership, those troops are wearing down that 120 million, starting with the meanest, most motivated, most intractable, best armed, and stupidest ones. The ones that are willing to blow themselves up just to open a gate so another suicide bomber can run through.
Victory in war requires a reduction in enemy numbers, whether dead or alive.
To answer your question from #110. No, those are not grass-roots. The front line people handing out the glossy cards may be unpaid volunteers, but they are fronting for an organization that is already on the radar. That article you posted saw wide-spread release and coverage, it was pre-planned as a media blitz. No doubt another attempted sting similar to the attempts on NASCAR fans.
ICNA does not represent a majority of Muslims in America. But it certainly does seem to represent some of the most violent.
Repeated exposure of what ICNA is and is about, and where its funding comes from is the proper counter. None of which was mentioned in that press release.
==
Mary – People in positions of power have been talking about blowing up mosques for as long as there have been mosques and the bombs to blow them up. All kinds of people, in all kinds of positions of power, including at other mosques. Is Michael Berry really in a position of power? (another minor quibble, _itler did need those tanks – no panzers, no blitz, no blitz, no fall of Europe.)
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2010/09/taliban_kill_48_in_a.php
No Americans involved in the above. No Christians or Jews either. Kinda makes that whole “religion of peace” meme look silly. It also raises the question of why wasn’t that story the big press release of the day instead of “ICNA stings the fair” story?
I wonder if somebody should tell that Marcos guy the truth about typing in all caps?
NOT
I,
R
Render- you asked “Is Michael Berry really in a position of power?”
As of 2007, Berry was a Houston councilman and the boss of Houston’s Clear Channel AM stations, so he was in a position of power.
Right now, the only power Berry has right now is to make a Hamas’s favorite unindicted co-conspirators in CAIR look reasonable in comparison to him. Houston sources report that in response to Berry’s ‘bomb the mosque’ outburst:
CAIR filed a complaint with the Federal Communications Commission. In a press release it said: “Calls for acts of violence against houses of worship must never be tolerated or excused,” said CAIR National Executive Director Nihad Awad. “We ask the FCC to demonstrate that incitement to violence is never acceptable on our nation’s airwaves.”
He said Berry’s call to violence against an American mosque is of particular concern, coming as it does after a bombing at a mosque in Jacksonville, Florida, earlier this month.
You said: “No Christians or Jews either. Kinda makes that whole “religion of peace” meme look silly. It also raises the question of why wasn’t that story the big press release of the day instead of “ICNA stings the fair” story?”
Islam never was a religion of peace, it’s an imperialistic religion that demands submission from all followers. Islam is one of the few religions that has no tradition of pacifism.
But the Taliban attacks were the big press release of the day as far as I know. That was all I saw on Google news and other internet news sources. I didn’t even hear about the “Muslims at the fair” story until Del linked to it. I may have missed the ICNA connection/story because I don’t have time to read many blogs lately – mostly I just read the two Michaels, Michael Totten and Michael Yon, and both mostly discuss foreign policy.
I have read several editorials today asking the anti-jihad movement to speak out against the extremists in their ranks.
Mary – My apologies, the section of my comment #115 directed to you, didn’t quite come out the way I’d meant it. I know you and I are on the same side, (we’ve each been orbiting around many of the same bloggers for years now), on most, if not all, of these issues.
==
Sorry, the Michael Berry question wasn’t rhetorical, I really had no idea who he was/is. Ok, so he’s a former local-level power broker with a microphone in a regional AM talk-radio market. How much influence does he really have? Is there a long, detailed, and on-going history of Houston Clear Channel AM radio listeners blowing things up and beheading people after listening to AM talkers?
Michael Berry exercising his right to free speech in a limited market just doesn’t concern me nearly as much as Nihad Awad’s open support for HAMAS and long history of Muslim Brotherhood activism. I don’t agree with what appears to be Michael Berry’s more vehement comments, (the last thing NYC needs is another major terrorist attack – from either side), but I also note that Nihad Awad and James Edwards (of The Political Cesspool radio) each have a long history of what can only be described as hate-speech and both are speaking to target audiences that have a long history of violent racist acts.
It seems to me that Nihad Awad and CAIR, as the go-to talking heads for the national level MSM each and every time Muslims are involved in committing violent and/or terrorist acts, has far more dangerous influence then either Michael Berry or James Edwards.
The reason I’m focusing in on CAIR is because they are the ones that filed the FCC complaint against Michael Berry. They are the ones who mass dumped the press releases to the MSM demanding that Michael Berry be fired, making this a national level story. They are the ones constantly referred to as a “civil-rights” organization by that same MSM when astute readers already know there is nothing “civil” about the rights that CAIR is demanding. There is nothing civil about Sharia and there are no rights in Islam for non-Muslims.
At worst Michael Berry should be given a stern talking to by his employers (I get the impression that’s already happened) about blowing his cool with call-in listeners, who he could just hang up on.
At best CAIR and all the other Muslim Brotherhood front groups should be facing numerous RICO investigations. Each and every member of CAIR’s leadership should have a tail of federal agents a mile long behind them.
oh…and I really wish somebody would curb-stomp James Edward’s follicle challenged head into mush.
FREE
MY
SPEECH,
R
At best CAIR and all the other Muslim Brotherhood front groups should be facing numerous RICO investigations. Each and every member of CAIR’s leadership should have a tail of federal agents a mile long behind them.
I agree. Everyone in these groups should be closely watched, and if they get caught jaywalking, not paying their taxes, etc., they should receive the harshest RICO-based sentencing that the law allows.
But Michael Berry was not “exercising his right to free speech in a limited market”, he was making the kind of threats that have sent other hate-peddling pundits like Hal Turner to trial and (hopefully) to jail.
I don’t care what ‘values’ people like Michael Berry represent and I don’t care whose side they’re on. I don’t care if they claim that their terroristic threats are part of an anti-terrorism campaign, I don’t care if they claim to be supporting motherhood, apple pie and free chocolate for everyone: if they make terroristic threats, if innocent people are harmed by violence done in the name of for their cause, if they’re allying with groups with a history of naziism or fascism, they are not on my side.
Who is James Edwards, anyway?
Hal Turner is awaiting sentencing. Hopefully it’ll be a very long sentence.
Michael Berry made one veiled threat to a building, an inanimate object. Hal Turner made numerous threats to numerous living individuals over a long period of time.
Michael Berry was an elected official working for a legit radio show. Hal Turner is a WN with a very long connection to the neo-nazi National Vanguard, a history of violence, and Turner paid to have his show put on the radio.
I seriously doubt that Michael Berry, whose wife is Asian Indian, is in any way connected to any of the neo-nazi/fascist groups (although I’ve seen stranger linkages). There is no question whatsoever about Hal Turner’s connection to convicted pedophile Kevin Alfred Strom’s National Vanguard.
Who is James Edwards? (was that rhetorical?) He is who Hal Turner wants to be when he grows up. His radio show, called The Political Cesspool, is Neo-Confederate/Neo-Nazi, David Dukes second favorite radio show, required listening for Stormfront etcetcetc. A considerably wider audience then Turner ever had or will have. Making James Edwards considerably more dangerous then Hal Turner. So what’s the difference? Hal Turner openly and repeatedly threatened judges and other elected officials. James Edwards is smart enough to not directly threaten anybody (that I know of – yet).
That neo-Nazi’s even exist should be considered a threat to Jews.
KNOW
YOUR
ENEMIES,
R
Render,
You wrote: “They’re out there, your moderates, and they are very definitely the majority by a large margin.”
How do you define “moderates” and what is the basis for your assertion?
I define “moderates” as people who do not want to kill me simply because I’m Jewish.
The basis for my assertion is partially personal experience and partially the personal experiences of friends in uniform.
If they came to America from Pakistan to escape “the bearded ones” then they are moderate. If they knock on my door to wish me a happy new year (something not one of my Christian friends remembered this year), then they are moderate.
If they are working as interpreters (terps) for US forces in any of the war zones, they are moderates.
I could go on but I think you get the point. Not every Muslim is a sharia law fanatic.
===
http://muslimsagainstsharia.blogspot.com/2008/01/what-is-moderate-muslim.html
NOT
NEARLY,
R
Render,
By that definition, the ICNA is “moderate”, as they hope to convert or subjugate rather than kill you.
Far more leave Pakistan for economic gain than to escape the bearded ones.
The door-knockers? Yeah. those are reasonably described as moderate. Of course, sincerity is assumed.
War zone interpreters? Some are likely moderate. Some are probably spies (shocka!). Some want a good paying job. Some aren’t Muslim (many in Iraq are Christians).
You’re right that not every Muslim is a sharia fanatic. But also not every non-fanatic is “moderate”.
My definition of moderate is: those who see Islam as a private personal faith and are therefore opposed to societal shariah. Not merely passive or uninterested, but opposed, sincerely if not actively. Islam as a private personal faith and opposition to societal shariah are however distinctly heterodox — which is my point above: very few “religious” and involved Muslims, or Muslim leaders (imams, etc.) are moderate in the sense that matters (or should) to non-Muslims.