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Will Collier, read this:
Japan’s combination of long sea zones and growing rivalry with China make a long-range, twin-engine, supercruising and stealthy interceptor that has unprecedented reconnaissance capabilities and leverages existing Japanese partnerships with Lockheed and Boeing nearly irresistible. Seen in that light, the JASDF’s interest in the F-22 is less surprising.
A Lockheed Martin official has confirmed that a proposal to sell Japan F-22s in some form of downgraded “international variant” is working its way through the Air Force with the support of the Japanese government, and is now “at the three- or four-star level” and among civilian decision-makers.
Of course, Japan knows a thing or two (cough, cough) about electronics, and could probably upgrade any “international variant” to full spec without too much trouble.
damn it damn it damn it.
I was just about to do a post on this. I feel subverted.
Well Will, how about some thoughts. No way we give the Japanese an untampered product right? They’ll get the dumbed down version?
I’m all in favor of a few raptor squadrons bedded down in Japan, but I doubt we give them the real deal stealthy raptor.
We give Japan the “dumbed down” version, and soon they’ll have version that’s at least as smart as ours. Not that that is necessarily a bad thing. Japan at present is a reliable ally; I think they are more concerned about China and want us as an ally. I don’t forsee US F-22s vs. Japan F-22s.
totally agree rbj. Wonder what the Israelis could do with a dumbed down Raptor, they did some phenomenal stuff with the F-16 and F-15.
Next best thing to having these suckers in our arsenal is giving them to allies like Japan.
And the between the lines story in Steve’s post is how tight our military ties have become with Japan in the past few years. We’re giving them primo hardware, all across the board.
Japan taking we sell them for defense and improving it? That’s unpossible!
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/japan/kongo.htm
Great news! The other unspoken benefit to this is that the additional sales will lower the per unit pricetag that keeps getting bandied around in the effort to cancel the purchase of this superfighter. Its ridiculous to say that the price is going up when you’ve already spent the money on r&d and getting the manufacturing online. When we initially fielded the competition for the f-22 we were looking at buying 500 or more of them. Now we have Congress cutting that to a couple hundred. Of course on a per unit basis the cost is going to more than double since the number is less than half of what was planned.
Probably planes from New Mexico. On the news the other night they had a short segment on where the stealth planes would go when Hollerman (?) AFB was closed. Apparently they aren’t just moving them to other bases.
It does make a person wonder. The planes aren’t the newest thing around anymore but they’re hardly the oldest. I wonder if they had a bit less utility than was expected.
TO: Will Collier
RE: Just That?
“…[the Japanese] could probably upgrade any “international variant” to full spec without too much trouble.” — Will Collier
I’d expect better than ‘full spec’, in some cases.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
Chuck, when are you going to learn to read a frickin’ by-line?
TO: Will Collier
RE: My Apologies
“…when are you going to learn to read a frickin’ by-line?” — Will Collier
I was splitting my time between blogging and preparing a chinese stir-fry; pepper-steak.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. If you’ve never tried it, five-spice powder seems to be the secret ingredient that gets your home-made stuff up to the sort of flavor you get at good Chinese restaurants.
P.P.S. A little bit goes a very long way.
TO: Stephen Green
RE: I See….
…that CISCO is trying to impress us with their savvy, vis-a-vis blogads.
I followed their link and told them to FOAD.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
I’ve always believed that if we played our cards right Japan could be our ticket out of Korea. Maybe even Taiwan if we’re lucky.
yours/
peter
It’s not unprecedented to give Japan top-of-the line military hardware. The example that springs to my mind is their Kongo-class DDGs, which are almost identical to our own Arleigh Burke-class, and carry the aegis system (among other things). Their navy is already top of the line; it seems they’re trying to upgrade their air forces as well. I can’t imagine why.
Peter,
Interesting thought, but remember that Koreans and Japanese have a well defined historical animosity.
And that Japan’s constitution forbids the type of offensive projection required for them to take our place as the big kid on the east Asian block.
You can’t deter grade-A nutjobs like Kim Jong-Il simply by being strong and in the neighborhood.
Still, a strong Japan is definitely in American interests. And I agree with you that the Japanese should make strides towards regional hegemony.
The Japanese-built F15′s come in about 16% lighter than the American plane, and with a better, phased-array radar.
On the other hand, their F-2 clone of the F-16 came in at more than 4 times the US cost for a Fighting Falcon, for basically the same plane.
You guys all read and believe way too much Tom Clancy (insurance salesman who happened to live next door to a talkative Navy guy, now there’s a technological source I’ll refer to).
We’ll sell the Japanese less than US block one F-22′s, which, with their vaunted abilities in consumer electronics they will soon turn into less than US block 2 F-22′s.
Give me a break!
Mike
Richard: I believe that inflated cost was due to Japanese insistance on local production for various subsystems. This is a not-uncommon pathology among advanced nations.
John Noonan said “Wonder what the Israelis could do with a dumbed down Raptor, they did some phenomenal stuff with the F-16 and F-15.” I sure as Hell don’t want to find out, since by many accounts China has gained access to certain US high-tech systems via sales from Israel.
I’m not saying the Israelies aren’t loyal; I’m just saying they’re sometimes not too careful on how they generate their foreign income. After all, the chicoms aren’t likely to run into the IDF anytime soon, no?
So while I would not trust the Israelis, I would generally trust the Japanese.
Almost missed John’s remark re: the “less stealthy” Raptor. I doubt those will be made, unless the stealth has an active component of which I’m not aware. The stealth is pretty much built into the airframe and construction thereof.
Finally, I think most folks worry too much about tech, and not about training. The truth is that high-tech saves lives, but training wins wars.
At the start of WW2, the Germans and the Japanese had some of the most advanced weapons on the planet, and they continued this lead far into the war. Basically the Allies won with inferior weapons, to a certain degree. I cite the M-4 Sherman vs. the Tiger, the P-51 vs. the Me-262, and the Type 93 “Long Lance” torpedo vs. the US Mark 15 in example.
Casey, roger on your comments, opsec should -duh- be our primary concern when talking about selling the raptor abroad.
But I’ll throw this in….there is much, much more to stealth than the shape of an airframe. Much more.
The stealth is pretty much built into the airframe and construction thereof.
In order to make it less stealthy, you use material ‘b’ instead of material ‘a’… it’s not just the shape of the thing, it’s what it’s made of, and how to make certain exotic materials is not widely known.
As far as the Japanese are concerned… I’m not worried about what Japan would do if they knew how to build F-22s, and think they would do a good job of not spreading the details around. Even so, my first choice would be to station American F-22s in Japan. Japan is an ally, but I dunno if anyone is that good of an ally.
As far as the Israelis are concerned… while I appreciate their situation, and they have my respect and sympathy, everyone needs to remember that the Israelis are not on the US’s side, they are on Israel’s side, and they will do what they think is in Israel’s best interests…. and they do not consider the People’s Liberation Army to be a threat to Israel.
On the other hand regarding trusting the Japanese with the technology, it was a Japanese business that sold the super-quiet propeller design and related manufacturing equipment from US Submarines to the Soviets back in the cold war days. So technology transfer from the Japanese to the highest bidder is not unheard of.
See: A Conviction In Soviet Sale
and
Toshiba Case
True, ak47pundit, but from what I’ve gathered from other sources the Soviets were doing well with their own R&D on propellor-milling, so the Toshiba techniques sale was likely less useful than most folks think. Besides which, that was information owned by Toshiba, not the US.
John: true, there’s composition, but that was subsumed in my remark about construction. Or do you refer to issues such as exhaust, or active counter-measures? It was my impression that stealth relies on more passive measures.
Just for laughs: would anyone have trouble if Great Britain had access to critical data about the F-22?
Yes.
The F-2 was indeed based on the F-16C. One of the reasons for its cost, which approached an F-15s and thereby got it canceled (that last budget funded the last F-2s to be produced) was that it made use of composites technology that pushed the envelope. This has weight and radar signature benefits, and more to the point for Japan it really vaulted their aircraft composites industry ahead (remember, this is the land of MITI). The F-2 is also larger than the F-16, with more range and weapons-carrying capability.