Just do whatever the police say.
Rights? You *#**#*% don’t got no stinkin rights.
This tale from Philadelphia, A.K.A. the City of Brotherly Love, seems to fit neatly into the jigsaw puzzle with this piece about a recent Indiana Supreme Court decision and this one about an incident in Pima County, Arizona.
It seems that a Mr. Fiorino, with the appropriate permit for carrying a firearm, did just that. As he walked down a city street, holstered pistol visible on his hip, he was accosted by the police who spoke to him in language not customarily heard in church or elsewhere in civilized surroundings.
Fiorino was on Frankford near Placid Street when Sgt. Dougherty spotted him from his police cruiser, stopped and called out to him.
An unnerving back-and-forth started to unfold like a bizarre routine. Dougherty would bark an order, and Fiorino would make an alternative suggestion.
Fiorino offered to show Dougherty his driver’s and firearms licenses. The cop told him to get on his knees.
“Excuse me?” Fiorino said.
“Get down on your knees. Just obey what I’m saying,” Dougherty said.
“Sir,” Fiorino replied, “I’m more than happy to stand here -”
“If you make a move, I’m going to f—— shoot you,” Dougherty snapped. “I’m telling you right now, you make a move, and you’re going down!”
“Is this necessary?” Fiorino said.
It went on like that for a little while, until other officers responded to Dougherty’s calls for backup.
Fiorino was forced to the ground and shouted at as he tried to explain that he had a firearms license and was legally allowed to openly carry his weapon.
“You f—— come here looking for f—— problems? Where do you live?” yelled one officer.
“I’m sorry, gentlemen,” Fiorino said. “If I’m under arrest, I have nothing left to say.”
“F—— a——, shut the f— up!” the cop hollered.
The cops discovered his recorder as they searched his pockets, and unleashed another string of expletives.
Fiorino said he sat handcuffed in a police wagon while the officers made numerous phone calls to supervisors, trying to find out if they could lock him up.
When they learned that they were in the wrong, they let him go.
That might have been the end of the thing, too, if it hadn’t been for the recordings.
Things got a bit more unpleasant.
After Fiorino posted his recordings on YouTube, they went viral. Members of pro-firearms forums on the Web took a particular interest in the incident.
The Police Department heard about the YouTube clips. A new investigation was launched, and last month the District Attorney’s Office decided to charge Fiorino with reckless endangerment and disorderly conduct because, a spokeswoman said, he refused to cooperate with police.
Fiorino said he plans to sue the city whenever his criminal case is resolved.
Police spokesman Lt. Ray Evers said the department believes that Fiorino wanted to get into a confrontation with cops, that he wanted to see them lose their cool so he later could file a lawsuit.
Or, as one cop was overheard saying on the YouTube recording: “He set us the f— up, that’s what the f— he did.”
Some good did come from the incident, although Mr. Fiorino is still facing criminal prosecution.
The Police Department is trying to make sure none of its officers are ever again caught not knowing basic gun laws.“Our officers weren’t up to speed [because] we never really addressed it,” said Lt. Francis Healy, the department’s lawyer.
“In the last several weeks, we’ve done a lot of training and put out a lot of information about what is allowed and what’s not allowed. Right now, our officers are better-versed on the subject matter.”
Healy said he emphasized the importance of officers being polite and professional if they have to stop a person who is legally carrying a firearm.
“You can use caution, but you don’t need to curse them up and down and put a gun in their face,” he said.
At City Hall on Saturday, about 30 gun owners staged a protest of Fiorino’s recent arrest.
The protesters and cops got along fine. (emphasis added)
Mr. Fiorino may indeed have anticipated such actions by the police — having experienced that sort of thing previously — and he may indeed have set out to conduct his own little civilian sting operation. Still, the police should have been aware of the laws they attempted incorrectly to enforce and rather than cuss Mr. Fiorino out for not yielding to their ignorance of those laws they should have asked him, perhaps even politely, to stand where he was until they figured out what they should do. Here is one of the YouTube audios.
I have had very few encounters with police officers and in those few they seemed to know what they were doing and were courteous. Here, they were ignorant of the law they were apparently trying to enforce and were grossly discourteous with no apparent reason. Maybe the Indiana Supreme Court had it right — just do what you are told to do, don’t mind what the laws say, and the courts will sort everything out later. Perhaps the Pima Country SWAT folks were right when they fired a “hail” of bullets leaving sixty slugs into a twenty-six year old former Marine, leaving him dead in his home. I don’t think so. Law enforcement activities of this sort seem inappropriate and unless they are called to our attention through more “sting” operations there will be more of them. Perhaps police should consider conducting some similar sting operations themselves if they don’t want adverse publicity.
maybe before reading someone his miranda rights the police should have to first read the bill of rights
“Or, as one cop was overheard saying on the YouTube recording: “He set us the f— up, that’s what the f— he did.”
What’s that saying? You can’t fool an honest man.
I used to be a regular reader of Supportyourlocalgunfighter.com, a blog maintained by a Philly police officer. When I asked him to discuss this incident and told him I would no longer back up for a police officer, he banned me from his site. When I sent him an email with one word, “coward”, he told me to go “f#@k yourself”. Don’t go to Philly. Their police departrment is just a bunch of thugs with uniforms and badges. They aren’t interested in obeying the law, just making it up as they go along. Not a professional in the bunch.
I hope he does sue, and that each and every misbehaving officer is reduced to abject penury and forever banned from public service. While on duty, police have more freedom of action than the average citizen — but with any freedom comes a corresponding level of responsibility.
Philadelphia PD no not often been accused of being professional. I have seen a lot of sloppy, fat and surly cops in that city. If they don’t know the law that does not give them permission to harass someone that has broken no law. The citizen is not required to follow illegal orders, except in Muslim and communist countries. This man could not set up the police unless they were stupid enough to blunder through a confrontation with nothing to back it up but hot air and a pistol.
In general I like the police but Philly is on a par with New Orleans PD and neither have earned much respect.
People in Philadelphia in general are rude and obnoxious. Even their accent is obnoxious. Why should their cops be any different?
Here’s the deal; power without responsibility corrupts. Absolute power without absolute responsibility corrupts absolutely.
People, regardless of position in society, need to be held responsible for their actions. Blanket immunity to prosecution leads only to the sort of behavior on the part of authority that we saw here. It’s time to start holding police officers responsible for their behavior.
Law enforcement activities of this sort seem inappropriate
“Seem” “inappropriate”? I think a little stronger language is called for. They don’t seem inappropriate, they are criminal. Murder, in the case of the Marine, and assault and false imprisonment in the case of Mr. Fiorino.
And don’t tell me its a few bad apples. If that were the case, all the good cops would quickly put a stop to it. Its a sick subculture on par with the sick subculture that creates drug gangs, and it should be dealt with the same way.
Fiorino was either conducting his own sting operation or looking for a free funeral. Pulling a stunt like that with two idiots with guns and badges shows poor judgement. If they are yelling and cussing at you they are already scared of you. It’s best to comply and not get shot. Insults and verbal abuse can roll off your back. Bullets go right through.
If you choose to carry get your permit and carry concealed. It might be less eventful but then isn’t that why you carry in the first place.
Poor judgment? You are a coward who cannot recognize bravery when you see it.
This was a Citizen quietly making a stand. He was taking a great risk, yes, but someone has to stand up. Who’s gonna do it? You? Nope. “Can’t go insisting on your liberties. Uh-uh. Might get killed. It is best to just surrender them.” If we do not fight for our freedoms, they get taken from us every time. The man is a hero and deserves our gratitude and respect.
“The tree of liberty is watered with the blood of patriots and tyrants.” – Jefferson (I may have gotten it a bit wrong.)
So exercising your rights is a “stunt” huh? And yeah, the guy could have been shot. If everyone thought like macko where would we be today? Still singing “God Save the Queen.”
Ignorance of the law is no excuse…works both ways ?
What, we don’t need to know no stinkin’ laws– shut up civilian, we’ll try to charge you for spite!
Bull.
Citizens have no obligation to bend at the knee so to speak to police officers behaving unprofessionally.
“Just listen to the police and the courts will sort it out later” is naive as hell.
I don’t think Dan Miller knows much about police other than his few brief encounters. Once the paperwork is done (and sometimes before) it’s like any other job, people try to cover their ass, foist responsibility off, even old scores, deals are made, etc.
“Respect and obey a police officer” has turned into “the police can act verbally and physically abusive towards you and you can sit there and take it and if you don’t like it tough shit.” That isn’t America, it’s goddamn ridiculous.
Especially when the police don’t even know the damn law they’re so unprofessionally trying to enforce here.