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Spengler

What Happened in Ukraine?

March 5th, 2014 - 4:45 pm

European media are reporting the leak of a taped phone call between the Estonian Foreign Minister and European Community foreign policy chief Lady Catherine Ashton alleging that the same snipers killed demonstrators as well as security forces during the Maidan Square uprising. The Estonians are no friends of Putin–quite the contrary. Russia and Estonia have been bitterly at odds for years. Russian stated media posted the call on YouTube. Presumably they got the tape from the Russian spy agencies.

Writes the London Guardian:

A leaked phone call between the EU foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton and Estonian foreign minister Urmas Paet has revealed that the two discussed a conspiracy theory that blamed the killing of civilian protesters in the Ukrainian capital, Kiev, on the opposition rather than the ousted government.

The 11-minute conversation was posted on YouTube – it is the second time in a month that telephone calls between western diplomats discussing Ukraine have been bugged.

In the call, Paet said he had been told snipers responsible for killing police and civilians in Kiev last month were protest movement provocateurs rather than supporters of then-president Viktor Yanukovych. Ashton responds: “I didn’t know … Gosh.”

It’s a lead story on Der Spiegel’s main German language news page and extensively covered elsewhere. It raises the question: to what extent was Maidan Square the triumph of Western-looking lovers of democracy (surely true to some extent) and to what extent was it an intra-oligarchical mob war (surely true to some extent)?

Not a word in the US media yet, judging from a Google News search.

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All Comments   (29)
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I'm sure Snowden and his allies, toadies, and supporters will be denouncing the interception of this phone call any minute.
40 weeks ago
40 weeks ago Link To Comment
The last time I checked Sergey, the Guardian still employed Luke 'the FSB gangstalked me and put porno mags on my nightstand' Harding, who wrote a semi-hit piece short book on Ed Snowden without bothering to interview Snowden or reach out to Guardian colleagues who had. So the Guardian is leftist, but a mixed bag when it comes to Russia. Lately they've been more leftist like the Guardian and blaming NATO's massive expansion after the USSR collapsed for bringing us to this point. Before the Ukraine crisis began they were fiercely anti-Kremlin while being pro-Snowden. They certainly despise Russia's LGBT policies.

Anyway back to our esteemed host here -- at the time Mr. Goldman published this article the snipers story was being downplayed by Anglo-American media outlets, at least until they could get their stories straight. Whereas the initial reaction was that the tape was just gossip or hearsay, since they couldn't deny its authenticity with the Estonian foreign envoy's confirming it, now they insist that it must have been Russian snipers shooting both sides on the Maidan to create a pretext for Russia invading Crimea. Of course. Yesterday it was hearsay and nonsense, 'disinformatziya' as one professor at the U.S. Naval War College put it, today it's true but it was the Russians. Not entirely inconsistent but certainly revealing approaches.


Look, no one doubts that bullets were fired from the direction of police lines. Hardly anyone even doubts that some SBU & Berkut units may have had plans to shoot or did shoot at protesters, both armed and unarmed (it should be noted that almost a dozen police officers were shot to death and many multiples of that were almost beaten to death). The issue here is that, like in Syria when Assad's chemical weapons use had the President of the U.S. threatening to bomb him, qui bono? Russia regained Crimea but completely lost control of Ukraine's SBU which is now firmly in the hands of the most anti-Russian Ukrainian nationalistic elements. Naturally such people gravitate to the jobs that allow them to hold the guns, which is why the fascist threat is so real despite Svoboda and Right Sector perhaps together holding less than 10% of the popular vote. This is the reality Timothy Synder seeks to downplay, it's not the percentage but he who holds the guns that counts in Ukraine right now.

Here's another example: the Jewish Telegraph Agency reporting in June 2013 about Svoboda Party members being condemned by Ron Lauder-linked Jewish foundations and being banned from entering the US! That may include John McInsane's buddy Oleh Tyanhbok!

It appears the oligarchs who hope to run Donbass have as much or more influence over the leading organizations in Ukraine as the Lubavitchers allegedly have as pro-Kremlin Jewish moutpieces worldwide.

http://www.jta.org/2013/06/27/news-opinion/world/ultranationalist-ukrainian-political-party-leaders-banned-from-u-s

Bottom line: any eyewitness accounts closer to the date of the action are more reliable than those presented later under heavy Kiev parliament influence. Beware of news pages being air brushed out from the day of the sniper attacks.
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41 weeks ago
41 weeks ago Link To Comment
Even big shots can fall for disinformation during a conflict. Regardless of the truth or fiction in this bugged conversation, the West still has a strong interest in keeping Putin's goons out of the former Soviet republics and satellites that broke free.
41 weeks ago
41 weeks ago Link To Comment
Happy weekend Belmont Club and Spengler readers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9ihKq34Ozc
this scene just about sums it up. The arm is going to shoot up in Ukraine among the wonderful people our State Department and tax dollars are funding.

And Paul Joseph Watson concurs with Spengler's take that Ukraine is headed for partition:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IC-yg-QCEc8&feature=youtu.be

Apparently Brooklyn bred mensch Michael (Weiner) Savage didn't get the Debbie Schlussel memo or doesn't care.

http://www.debbieschlussel.com/69720/michael-savage-hosts-jew-hater-whack-job-silent-as-expert-blames-us-foreign-policy-ukraine-probs-on-jews-w-dual-israel-citizenship-susan-rice-is-neocon/

remember aesop's fable about the man who died from a viper bite after he rescued the serpent? That's who these folks remind me of in their madlong rush to embrace Israel's enemies in Syria and enemies of the Jewish people in Ukraine. Hell Debbie even admits in the post above that there are anti-Semites on the streets of Kiev, but can't forgive Savage for letting a guy who doesn't like Israel say as much!
41 weeks ago
41 weeks ago Link To Comment
On the original subject of this post, here is the REPORT THAT SNIPERS WERE TARGETING BOTH SIDES AT EUROMAIDAN WELL BEFORE RUSSIAN FORCES INVADED CRIMEA or RT promoted the Ashdown recording.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=130_1393011276
41 weeks ago
41 weeks ago Link To Comment
X-Files:

In terms of legality under international law, what is the inherent difference between Russia's occupation of Crimea and NATO bombing of Serbia on behalf of Albanian separatists in Kosovo?
41 weeks ago
41 weeks ago Link To Comment
The difference is that Serbia had no internationally recognized borders, it was only a self-proclamed region of Yugoslavia in a war with its neigbours. Ukraine has these borders and Budapesht memorandum signed by US, UK and Russia as guarantors of its sovereignity ant territorial integrity. It still was a stupid policy to support Kosovo insurgents, but not a violation of international law.
41 weeks ago
41 weeks ago Link To Comment
No difference, in fact thus far Russia's occupation unlike the NATO/US air campaign has not led to deaths or massive destruction of property or historic sites. But I'm signing off PJM for a while. Let all the paid trolls whose funders ultimately can be traced back to the CFR and the usual one worlder Davos Men all get paid to yammer at each other and with fanatical western Ukrainian nationalists. I won't waste another minute arguing with those folks.
41 weeks ago
41 weeks ago Link To Comment
X-Files:

Is Svoboda more or less neo-Nazi than Croatia's HDZ?
41 weeks ago
41 weeks ago Link To Comment
I wonder how credible many Western citizen are to transparent lies of Putin's propaganda and desinformatiya campaign. What now is going at Russian television is even more blatant than Goebbels ever did. I was hearing Soviet propaganda for more than half a century, but such blatant and egregious lies I hear for the fist time in my life - all after Ukraine invasion.
41 weeks ago
41 weeks ago Link To Comment
Credulous, of course.
41 weeks ago
41 weeks ago Link To Comment
I wouldn't be surprised. Ukraine is known for fake protest groups made up of paid actors, even to the point of obviously being fake, like 'FEMEN.'

Also:
"He was Ukrainian. He told us why he had left his native country a few years before: Everyone there was corrupt, nothing was possible without bribery, the opposition was as bad as the government, and all political demonstrations, which were frequent even then, were entirely bogus. Indeed, political demonstrations had become a form of social security, the political system’s corrupt and vastly rich oligarchs paying a small daily subvention to the otherwise unemployed who agreed to demonstrate in their favor."

http://takimag.com/article/the_wisdom_of_a_ukrainian_plumber_theodore_dalrymple#axzz2vC2V23YV
41 weeks ago
41 weeks ago Link To Comment
It all reads a lot like the lead up to the invasion of Poland that began WW2...all sorts of phony provocations and the like. The big difference is that there is no German army to gobble up half of the Ukraine.
41 weeks ago
41 weeks ago Link To Comment
One wonders if the Germans, whose panties are in a bunch over the NSA, have noticed that these cell phone intercepts are coming from Russian intelligence.
41 weeks ago
41 weeks ago Link To Comment
Everyone spies on everyone else. It's an insult to be not spied upon, because that means you aren't important. Snowden's crime was in making public our spying on others. Now, was it done out of shock discovering that from a hopeless naivete or was he already a turncoat is something I don't know at this point.

This doesn't excuse the NSA's hoovering all of our electronic communications.
41 weeks ago
41 weeks ago Link To Comment
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