That is, indeed, the question of the day. Since making his overtly anti-Semitic comments, about which I blogged a day ago, Oliver Stone was obviously forced to make what turned out to be a halfhearted and clearly insincere apology. Stone released the following statement: “In trying to make a broader historical point about the range of atrocities the Germans committed against many people, I made a clumsy association about the Holocaust, for which I am sorry and I regret.”
Of course, anyone who knows all the previous interviews Stone has given about his forthcoming documentary, The Secret History of America, knows immediately how his apology is meaningless. For one, he did not say anything to show that he regrets his comments about “Jewish domination of the media” and how the powerful Jewish lobby has regularly “f….. up United States foreign policy for years.”
What clearly lies behind his new set of words is obvious pressure from Showtime and CBS. After all, the CEO of Showtime, Matthew E. Blank, received the UJA-Federation of NY’s Entertainment Media & Communications Division Award in 2003. This is something he obviously is proud of, since he has put it on Showtime’s Executive Bios page. Even more embarrassing is the immediate reaction to Stone’s words by representatives of the American Jewish community.
First, the Anti-Defamation League slammed Stone. Its director, Abraham Foxman, said that Stone “has once again shown his conspiratorial colors with his comments. … His words conjure up some of the most stereotypical and conspiratorial notions of undue Jewish power and influence.” And David A. Harris of the American Jewish Committee said that Stone had invoked a “grotesque, toxic stereotype” and had “outed himself as an anti-Semite.” His remarks, he added, were no different from “one of the drunken, Jew-hating rants of his fellow Hollywood celebrity, Mel Gibson.”
Foxman was at first not satisfied with Stone’s apology. “Oliver Stone’s apology stops short and is therefore insufficient,” he said. Of course, Foxman was correct. Then, the ante was upped. Most important, the wealthy media mogul Haim Saban, chair of the Saban Capital Group, remarked that his “apology is sooooo transparently fake.” He then contacted CBS chief Leslie Moonves, whose network owns Showtime, urging him to not air the program. Stone, Saban said, “has been consistent in his anti-American and anti-Semitic remarks,” and should join “Mel Gibson into the land of retirement.” Following his example, the powerful agent Ari Emanuel called CBS to second Saban’s request to cancel the documentary.
Another Whoopi’s not-rape-rape.
If you were a racist, an anti-semite, a rapist, you’d better be a leftist.
If you are a leftist all will be forgiven.
EXACTLY right! The ‘Left’ ALWAYS ‘forgives’ any/all ‘racism’ from the Left BY the LEFT.
The virulent sewer of the LEFT is filled to the MAX with ‘racism’ but, that’s “A-okay” so long as it’s all on their ‘team’.
HA! Double-HA! Evennnnn.
Not forgiven, just overlooked.
Overlooked or merely accepted as the norm for the left. Look at Glover, Penn, Moore etcetcetc..
The average person would be “burnt” toast.
Oliver Stone is a creep. His work is mediocre & uninteresting. He tries very hard to be controversial, sensationalism is just a tactic. Mostly, he is uninspired, boring, & unoriginal.
As for Abe Foxman of the ADL, this guy is a hopeless shill, an out-of-touch self-important idiot, unfortunately of a type all too common among self-appointed Jewish ”leaders”…..
Why does anybody listen to Abe Foxman? When is the last time he had something sensible to say? Foxman merely places his wet finger in the air to see which way the left-wing zeitgeist is blowing. Guys like Marty Peretz and him have caused enormous damage. They have provided cover to leftists like Barack Obama and other members of the Democratic Party. In their way of looking at the world, the enemy is always to the right. Sarah Palin is supposedly the true enemy of Western Civilization. I continuously warned people before the election in 2008 to ignore these two naïve men. Peretz was just making an outright fool of himself over Obama. Oliver Stone is an ideological left-winger and therefore Foxman feels obligated to defend him. What’s new about that? Isn’t that the norm for the National Director of the Anti-Defamation League? Isn’t that his number one duty?
When is the last time any Oliver Stone project earned a profit? Postmodernist whack jobs are incapable of connecting to rational human beings. They can only create “art” that satisfies the nihilistic needs of those who contemplate the mysteries of the universe through their bellybutton. These might be the same fools who perceive profound existential meaning in a can of human excrement.
David *sigh*
When is the last time any Oliver Stone project earned a profit?
When in history has ‘PROPAGANDA’ EVER needed to profit?
Do you honestly think Lefties are NOT ‘benefitting’ from their ‘messages’ they spew to the ‘sheeple’? People who are already wealthy beyond their wildest dreams who ‘create’ a new ‘history’ out of ‘whole cloth’ don’t ‘care’ about ‘profit margins’. THEY are the ‘man behind the green curtain’.
Oh goodness!!!
Nobody listens to “honest” Abe, except politicians. He is an idiot. It’s horse trading at it’s ugliest. Politicians need support from Jewish Organization, and they pay for it. And “honest” Abe it too eager to sell it. The real people, those Jews that know and remember have nothing to do with it. Most Jews that described as liberal, are just ignorant. And as long as those like Abe are fulling them, everything is sold and bought.
I congratulate you for fighting the good fight against anti-Semitic bigotry and hope you expand the battle to include the anti-Islamic bigotry rampant on the site you blog for.
What’s wrong with being anti-Islamist?
“Anti-Islamic bigotry” = telling the truth about Islam.
TRUTH to the highest power of honesty.
*hands you a delicious cookie*
Cookie? (ears perk up)
What kinda cookie?
Grievance cherry chocolate chip (extra dark chocolate, no ‘light’ milk chocolate allowed). Then, we throw in some rice and beans, a few watermelon seeds, some pork fat (to keep the jooz away) and we add in a dash of angry illegal taco seasoning and some sprinkles of angry beaver meat and a tidge of brevity and ya got the best cookies on planet multi-culti earth!
Delish!
Be sure to wash all that down with a tasty beverage.
I suggest a good, stiff Lager.
Yerrrrrrr gonna need it.
Thanks, Steve, CW, et al. I couldn’t have made my case stronger if I tried!
The larger reason that Stone’s series on Showtime should be canceled goes beyond his deep antisemitism (his being half Jewish is no excuse, i.e. Noam Chomsky, a full Jew). It is his desire to set Hitler and Stalin in “context” so as, one assumes, to better understand their horrendous acts of mass murder, that should be dropped.
I think the public will be subjected to seeing bad things Jewish businesses did to Germany, the support the Nazis had from American businesses etc – and this will excuse Adolph’s genocide. As to Stalin, we will probably here how he felt surrounded by enemies in the West and therefore had to fight back by murdering his own comrades, many Jews included.
Any man who can worship Chavez and Castro and find their dictatorial efforts reasonable will not have much trouble defending Adolph and Joe.
This is bad history, slanderous on the millions who fought a world war to defeat these monsters, and inexcusable to show on television, where many people think that what they see is the God’s honest truth.
Teachers whose students will be watching this series might well protest about its falsities and errors, and the further dumbing down effect it will have on young Americans. Someone might ask Foxman et al whether they are not concerned about this and if not, why!
Thanks to your blog for reporting on this sad mess.
Shalom, Cantor Bob Cohen
Notice that Stone is opposed to “racism and fascism” but conveniently leaves out communism (aka socialism/marxism). Who did he think was trying to kill him in So. Vietnam, the Amish? Who committed massive atrocities against the So. Vietnamese civilians, the Amish?
Who committed the Katyn Forest Massacre in conquered Poland? It wasn’t the Germans who did enough of their own slaughtering. It was the Communists and a majority of the Reserve Office Corps were Jews.
Stone, who hated the Vietnam war (his privilege as he served there) has long launched a series of propaganda attacks on the U.S. all the while supporting our Communist enemies around the war.
He is another self-hating Jew, like Chomsky, Naomi Klein, Tony Kushner, etc. and he has decided to side with the “red devil”. He will not change. He long ago signed the paper that sold his soul to our enemies.
Sidebar: Did anyone notice that pressure was put on CBS by Ari Emanuel, a noted Hollywood agent and brother of Rahm Emanuel, the Chicago political thug in the White House, as well as brother to Ezekiel Emanuel, the “Dr. Mengele” of healthcare and the elderly?
Wonder if the White House had a hand in this?
PS: Emanuel’s father served in the Irgun during the fight for Israeli independence. Perhaps one of the Emanuels’ is proud to be a Jew.
When a leftist radical bashes America and Israel, that is ok.
When a leftist radical says that Jews control the media and hyper-influence foreign policy…he must only do so in closed session.
You see, Oliver Stone isn’t saying anything that virtually EVERY leftist also says…to each other. The “best” point men for Leftist First, Jew Second (if at all) types are those who are willing, when caught…to point at their Jewish heritage as “proof” that they couldn’t be anti-Semites.
Using nominal Jews to bash Israel (as well as sincere Jews and America) is a tactic known as the Trojan Torah.
Oliver Stone calls down his veil of patriotism and Judaism as a shield, only when he is not using them as a sword to slay his standard bogeymen. (America and Israel)
When Stone writes to Foxman, it is to push the leftist guilt buttons, not because Stone has had even the most modest change of heart. Since Foxman is very typical in his kneejerk leftism, he responds on cue. You see, where Stone advances leftism over Judaism, Foxman merely wishes to keep them each as bedfellows. So, Stone whispered sweet nothings…absolute nothings, into Foxman’s ear.
Foxman rolled over. It was time again for leftists to do to the Jewish people what they have been doing for decades now.
Oliver smirks and says to himself…”Now, where did I put that Trojan”
Abraham Foxman’s judgment leaves much to be desired. I just found this article a few minutes ago. It’s a mind blower.
“We know that the swastika has, for some, lost its meaning as the primary symbol of Nazism and instead become a more generalized symbol of hate,” said Abraham Foxman, the ADL’s national director, who was a hidden child during the Holocaust in a statement. “So we are being more careful to include graffiti incidents that specifically target Jews or Jewish institutions as we continue the process of re-evaluating and redefining how we measure anti-Jewish incidents.”
http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/national/adl_downgrades_swastika_jewish_hate_symbol
Could it be that those painting the graffiti on the walls are usually dark skinned—and therefore Foxman feels uncomfortable of accusing them of being anti-Semitic? That’s the only theory that makes sense to me.
David, ‘grievance groups’ are TEFLON.
It is easy to say sorry. The question is whether people will go to see his movies? His recent bombs suggest the public does not value his reactionary politics. In a word, he is boring.
Stone is a leftist and an attack dog for the leftists. He could literally kill a Jew with his bare hands and still be fine in Hollywood and with much of the left. The policies that he personally advocates – and that many leftists support – would lead to the destruction of Israel and possible a nuclear holocaust. His words are not going to be a problem for him – at least in those circles.
I agree with you. Abe Foxman does not speak for us and we do not have to be so foolish as to believe Stone has suddenly had a revelation.
To be honest, Oliver Stone is the least of our problems right now. I haven’t given him a second thought.
Oliver will soon be the toast of the leftist town. He has officially passed into the world of DailyKos and HuffPo posters. These are the people who give you real estate moghul Silverstein as a ‘Mossad’ agent and Feith, Kristol, Perle and Wolfowitz as the secret ‘dark’ forces behind 911. The great irony is how so many of them are ‘of Jewish origin’ that they desperately try to wipe away as the join hands with Islamists and neoNazis. He has indeed embraced the Czarist forgery Protocols of the Elders, based on a book or essay by a cynical French writer about politicians, having nothing to do with Jews at all.
Okay, Stone is half-Jewish (technically he is not Jewish if his father was the Jewish half), so what? Within months of 911, at least half of the ‘truther’ theories had focused on the Jews, the Mossad, and the ‘Rothschilds.’ This is the wonder of anti-Semitism – it doesn’t need Jews to fly. Its jets are powerful, drawing from all the latent evil in the human soul and beyond.
Ollie Stone is just another punk out to destroy the concepts of Man within a G-dly system. He too will fail, but might provoke a few pogroms along the way.
As for the ADL, Haim Saban, Ari Emanuel – not impressed. After all, as Radosh wrote, Stone’s apology is baloney.
“Stone is half-Jewish (technically he is not Jewish if his father was the Jewish half)”
Not to be pedantic, but: Stone is half-Jewish, period, full stop. Whether it was his mother or father who was Jewish makes no difference in objective terms, it is only significant in Jewish religious/legal analysis.
Did the powerful Jews in control of Hollywood and the US media, put the heat on Stone, via pressure on CBS and Showtime?
Brilliant!
You just gave the anti Semites proof of their conjecture and assertion.
The question is, is he now toast because of his anti-semitic rant or does he get away with it and is allowed to publish his documentaries with Hitler and Stalin “in context” and is toast later because of that.
Dead man walking…
Just amazing how arrogant, dumb & out of touch with reality and historic reality Stone, yet another L. A. Liberal is. However my biggest concern or gripe is with Mr. Foxman, he let dumb bunny Stone off! why!
Stone has shown no sense of awareness of American historical role since the close of WWI, let alone WWII in any of his pictures, he cherry picks his point(s) very carefully to demean the American Military, our history of involvement and why we were and are engaged around the world. He appears to enjoy demeaning our society in general. He is another out of touch Hollywood liberal who thinks his moral compass in tuned
just perfectly. Unfortunately his moral compass is devoid of any real knowledge of history, he thinks he knows, that is his arrogance and appears to be based solely on his time in “Nam” a tactical view-not a strategic overview, there is no subtlety, this is his failure.
Mr. Foxman on the other does really know, but he he lets Stone. Why? I am not a jew, but I married into the tribe, I have a mother in law who survived Auschwitz. I know only a little of her story, But I do no she has not forgotten what happened there. Mr. Foxman I have a question: How is your memory these days?
Terry in Eilat is spot-on as always, Foxman is clueless and out-of-touch (and has not the vaguest understanding of Leftwing anti-Semitism – he is obtuse in the extreme) and taking insincere apologies from Jew-haters like Stone seriously means we can’t take Foxman seriously at all (and those like him). With “leadership” like Foxman combatting anti-Semitism, we are in deep dogdoo. Then again Foxman is the leadership that American Jewry in the main deserves (PM posters excepted) and yes Terry we agree that in Israel we are not much better, if at all and we have less excuse. Foxman is still living in the 60s, talk about DENIAL..He’s a caricature of the baby boomer eggheaded Jew who still thinks the biggest threat to Jews are neo-Nazis in their mommys’ basements and a tiny tiny minority of Muslim extremists who misunderstand their religion of peace and love. The elephant in the room of Leftist anti-Semitism he thinks just a pesky fly.
Stone’s anti-Semitism was sooooo predictable, the guy is a long-time fan and apologist for Chavez and Ahmandinejad and made a documentary a while back in praise of his favourite Jew-hating terrorist jihadist Yasser Arafat, so he outed himself as an anti-Semite a long time ago, but Jewish “leadership” is fast asleep, obtuse and leading us over a cliff. It’s all shock gasp a big surprise to them and when a Jew-hater lies through his teeth saying he didn’t really mean it, these naive fools like Foxman desperately concur.
Just to add something – Oliver Stone is not toast, lefty anti-Semitism is hunky dory ok with Hollywood Jews and the NY showbiz crowd so long as you use the usual cover terms and apologise insincerely if you out yourself too much. After all the real enemy is Sarah Palin, Limbaugh and the Tea Party crowd apparently and so they bat on the same side as Stone here, and mocking and berating the “evil” conservatives are where American Jewry’s priorities appear to lie in the main. And if that means turning a blind eye to the anti-Semitic Left, then so be it.
“lefty anti-Semitism is hunky dory….”
Always going to the anti-semitism card. More likely, it is anti-Israelism that is hunky dory. And why shouldn’t it be?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3319663041501647311#
Israels interest and the interests of The United States do not always coincide. Watch this video and decide for yourselves.
The best thing to do with the Jew-hate trolls who pretend they are not like David W Walters is just to call them what they are or ignore and ridicule them.
Your anti-Israelism is anti-Semitism, you share your anti-Israelism with neo-Nazis and Muslim jihadists Walters. You share your anti-Israelism with the jihadists and neo-Nazis who are hoping for another Holocaust of Jewry. How to explain that coincidence Walters? Of course you will never answer the question honestly – how come you share your anti-Israelism with genocidal Jew-haters? The question answers itself.
Telling lies about Israel is a form of anti-semitism.
Holding Isreal to a standard that is tougher than the one you hold Israel’s enemies to is a form of anti-semitism.
In most cases, those who go around telling others that they have no trouble with Jews, they just hate Israel, or doing nothing beyond trying to find an acceptable cover for their anti-semitism.
Mark,
If you say so (Telling lies about Israel…). I’m trying to be factual. Not knowing what you believe I said to be a lie, I can’t respond to that. But I’m confident my version is factual.
Holding Israel to a higher standard? No, I agree that Israel has security concerns, but I also believe Israel is using this concern as an excuse for a land grab. And this land grab is central to the issue of Palestinian rage. That this rage has taken the form of terrorist attacks against civilians is repugnant. I abhor any use of terror.
The solution I don’t have. I’m not that well versed with the intricacies of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. I have used Johnathan Pollard and the U.S.S. Liberty to illustrate the fact that Israels interests collide with the interests of the United States at times. However I agree that basically, Israel and the United States are natural allies.
Larry, I am unabashed anti-Israel. It isn’t the same as anti Semite. You can keep trying to link me to “jew-hate”, but that crap just won’t wash. I just think Israel’s policies are not in the best interests of my country, the one I swore an oath to, the one each and every crew member of the U.S.S. Liberty swore an oath to.
Listen to the testimony of the crew members of the U.S.S. Liberty. Are they anti-Semites too? The American public is kept in the dark about Israels nefarious machinations of American policy. They don’t quite comprehend the huge sums of money we waste on Israel, thinking mistakenly our interests are one in the same. If Israel wants to occupy other people’s lands and embark on ethnic cleansing, leave me and my country out of it. Americans are better than that, or we should be.
David, In response to a previous post of your i wrote the following with no response from you-
” I believe our close relationship with Israel is part of what drives the hatred of Islamic terrorists. ”
David,
You and I have argued back and forth several times. Some here have accused you of being an anti-semite. I don’t believe that to be true. I do think that you are unaware of the deception that has been perpetrated upon you. In that you are like many Americans. It is not that you are not intelligent, I think you are. However when lies are repeated long enough and often enough they take on a truth of their own. That is the heart of the problem.
Your statement, which I quoted above, is an excellent example of what I am talking about.
In saner times, before moral relativism gained its insidious grasp on American society, enemy propaganda was dismissed. People understood that the statements of the enemy were meant to cause harm. There was no call to label a lie a ” narrative ” in order to present the enemy viewpoint as worthy of consideration. It was understood that to do so would weaken our position and increase the possibility of our being defeated.
If Israel ceased to exist, G-d forbid, would there be no American bases in Saudi Arabia? Would Americas dependency on foreign oil be diminished? Would the Taliban be less interested in controlling Iraq? Would the Saudis feel less threatened by Iran? The answer to all these questions is no.
The country with single greatest expertise in the battle against Islamic extremism is Israel. The Jews have been fighting that extremism for almost one hundred years, and heres the point, we have been doing so successfully. In fact, since Israel has a huge population that originated in the countries that are hotbeds of Islamic extremism today, no other country has the human intelligence capabilities that Israel has in this arena.
The greatest fear that the Islamist has is that one day a US administration will understand that rather than being a handicap for America , Israel is the lynchpin for American victory.
Imagine a world where cancer could talk. You do your research and find the most successful doctor in treating your cancer. Then the cancer tries to convince you not to go to this doctor. In fact the cancer tells you that going to this doctor will only make things worse. Thats the cancers narrative.
David, I don;t ask that you agree with me. Just give my comments some consideration.
Thanks, MBY
*****
In another previous post your brought up The USS Liberty incident and I presented you with the following FACTS-
The CIA issued its finding on June 13, 1967. The result- ” No malice. The attack a mistake. ”
The US Navy Court of Inquiry issued its findings on June 18, 1967. The result – ” Mistaken identity. ”
The report by Clark Clifford issued on July 18, 1967. The result- ” No evidence the ship was known to be American. ”
Senate Select Committee on Intelligence investigated for years, from 1979 to 1981. The result- ” No merit to claims attack was intentional . ”
The Naval Security Agency investigated in 1981. The result- ” Mistaken identity. ”
The House Armed Services Committee investigate from 1991 to 1992. The result- ” No support for claims attack was intentional. ”
The last investigation was initiated by White House Chief of Staff John Sununu. He met with Liberty veterans, and then referred them to Representative Nick Mavroules, who was the Chairman of the Subcommittee on Investigations of the House Armed Services Committee. After a one year investigation the matter was closed. There was nothing to support conspiracy claims.
Despite the fact that several USS Liberty vets have contradicted their own sworn testimony, making a cottage industry of their charges, there is not a shred of evidence proving israeli fighters knew they were attacking a USS vessel.
* * *
I am always hesitant David, to accuse someone of being an anti-semite. I try to give a person the benefit of the doubt. However once a person demonstrates beyond a shadow of doubt that they hold such loathsome beliefs there is no point to denying it. Calling a spade a spade. Start digging.
Menachem,
From your post , you write:
“Some here have accused you of being an anti-semite. I don’t believe that to be true…..
I am always hesitant David, to accuse someone of being an anti-semite. I try to give a person the benefit of the doubt. However once a person demonstrates beyond a shadow of doubt that they hold such loathsome beliefs there is no point to denying it. Calling a spade a spade. Start digging.”
-I’ll try to prove some wrong in hasty anti-Semite judgments. Thanx for being open minded, it is important to achieve a workable dialogue.
My point in these various threads has been that Israel’s interests and our own do not dovetail exactly, to put it delicately.
“If Israel ceased to exist, G-d forbid, would there be no American bases in Saudi Arabia? Would Americas dependency on foreign oil be diminished? Would the Taliban be less interested in controlling Iraq? Would the Saudis feel less threatened by Iran? The answer to most of these questions is no.”
-I agree Menachem, except for this…(The Taliban wants to control Iraq?). But yeah, the Saudis are threatened by Iran and we are, sadly, addicted to their oil.
I do NOT want Israel to cease to exist.
My position is and has been that Israel does have a big security problem. Israel has said that the occupied lands are essential to that security. Herein lies the problem. This horrible conflict pitting the Islamic world against Israel hinges on occupation of Palestinian land. I know, there was never a country called Palestine, but there is a Palestinian people. They have a right to be treated fairly. That said, I understand there is an extreme element in Palestine that is in charge and they Have committed egregious acts against Israeli civilians, which to me, is deplorable. I argue in my troll like fashion, against those who support such despicable acts, on liberal sites.
Israel is a David pitted against an Islamic Goliath. As a young kid, I followed the news of the famous Six Day War with glee as Israelis crushed an aggressive group of neighbors. It was something they had to do. But, it is my opinion that keeping these lands is the the root of the problem I mentioned above in this post. It involves dual issues of Israeli security and Palestinian’s desire for freedom. Menachem, I don’t have these answers. I assume you know a bit more than I on this subject. But as an American I feel that we are drawn in to this conflict to our detriment.
You wrote- “The greatest fear that the Islamist has is that one day a US administration will understand that rather than being a handicap for America , Israel is the lynchpin for American victory.”
America and Israel have so much in common. We are natural allies. But, Israeli determination to occupy and build settlements on this land they captured in the ’67 war is what drives me away from supporting them totally. I am wary of Islamists, but in my mind occupation is what’s driving crazy Islamists.
Thanx for listening.
So you believe that it would be better for the US to become a suplicant to muslim dictators.
Mark, in response to
“So you believe that it would be better for the US to become a supplicant to muslim dictators.”
-No, we should not kneel down to Muslim dictators. Nor should we provide foreign aid to them. Having said that, We ought not support all if Israel’s policies either. Applying subtle, yet firm diplomatic pressure on Israel to change it’s policy with regard to occupied territory does not mean we are supplicating Muslim dictators. America has had a long standing alliance of sorts with Israel. It was Israeli agents who were able to gain copies of sensitive Soviet documents during the cold war. We literally saved their ass’s during the Yom Kippur war (did i spell that right?). U.S. troops stood between Egypt and Israeli forces in the 80′s as members of the Multinational Force Observers. 248 members of the 101st Abn Div. died returning from that duty in 1985. They were the unit that relieved my unit(1st Bn Abn508thInf) in the Sinai.
bottom line is this Mark: It is high time for Israel to get serious about solving their Palestinian problem because it will cost us (America) in the long run.
In your mind it is what drives Islamic extremism. In reality, what drives ‘Islamic extremism’ is Islamic doctrine. Menachem is far too nice with you, whether because he is trying to ‘teach’ or because, as a patriotic Jewish American, he refuses to believe that there are significant numbers of you around. The history of the Liberty ship incident has been distorted. The actual incident resulted, like most, from a number of factors. The dominant factor was that a neutral (in practice) superpower chose to spy on Israel from within its territorial waters at a time of war. This same power, the USA, was in fact partly responsible for bringing the war about. How? Because LBJ broke a pledge, which is easily researched, made by Eisenhower to Ben Gurion after the 1956 war (when the US forced Israeli withdrawal from Sinai against Israel’s security needs). That promise was that the US would open the Straits of Tiran at the ‘finger’ of the Red Sea that leads to Eilat. The Egyptians blockaded it, and PM Eshkol sent FM Eban to Washington to request, or beg, that Johnson keep the American promise. He was rebuffed.
Meanwhile, the Egyptians had already driven out the UN, which the nations – including the US – accepted, in complete violation of their duties to that organization. As a member of the Security Council, the US could have decided on the basis of that alone – and given Russian support for the Arabs – that she would honor her pledge to Israel and support Israel in the coming war. She did not. Simultaneously, the Arabs massed about 200,000 troops against a geographically indefensible country (that can not absorb a massive military assault). Israel was on the verge of destruction and a second genocide, thanks in part to American equivocating. (It has also been shown that Johnson and his Admin took a ‘wait-and-see’ attitude by choice; in other words, they were curious to see whether Israel would survive or not).
The actual reasons for the attack on the Liberty ship were 1) it remained in territorial waters, probably because of a communications mixup when the US Navy command’s order to it to leave was not received, 2) Israel, fighting for its life and short on resources, believed it was an Egyptian ship (and it was headed north in the direction of Tel Aviv).
None of the machinations that you attempt to prove can be proven. The mythical power of AIPAC is exaggerated. 70% of Americans support Israel, which is why the Congress does. The US has repeatedly interfered with Israel’s security and foreign policy by mandating/dictating/deciding that Israel must withdraw to Six-Day Borders (which were never more than Armistice lines, given Arab hatred). The aid is reciprocal, much of it is self-interested, with benefits being 1) weapons testing, 2) Israeli development of military equipment that is then used by American forces 3) pre-positioning and co-training; 4) use of Israel as unspoken protector of ‘moderate’ Arab states. For instance, Golda Meir, by positioning Israeli troops in the Jordan Valley during the Black September crisis of 1970, forced the Syrians to un-invade Jordan and gave King Hussein the time to survive and fight (in his way, not Israel’s) off the PLO.
Today, the United States – if President Obama and his advisers should decide to de-nuke Iran – will use Israel to do much of the work. And the purpose – to ‘fight Israel’s wars for her’ as the Left claims. Wait, it will be Israel fighting, Israel receiving missiles on her head, Israeli soldiers and civilians dying. And one of the prime beneficiaries – the Saudis and the Gulf oil states. In other words, the US will use Israel to do for Saudi Arabia what the US did in 1990 – save her. Of course, Israel’s own survival is at the forefront of Israeli calculations, as it should be.
Yes, you are anti-Israel. Yes, you are anti-Semitic by virtue of your wild ‘knowledge’ of how ‘Israel controls US foreign policy in the ME’, blah-blah. Good for you. I suspect Menachem understands that there are lots of David Walters out there. I hope so.
Larry,
You wasting your time with David. He is blind, and Ideologue. His predefined view of the events, situation and current status will not change. He is a lost cause. As one of my mentors once said – ” A little bit of knowledge is dangerous”. David has very little knowledge.
Larry,
“In reality, what drives ‘Islamic extremism’ is Islamic doctrine”
Islamic doctrine, from what little i know seems to be screwed up. For that matter some Christian doctrine is kinda screwy. But as to what drives people to blow themselves up with innocent civilians is a lot of hate that is given expression as a religious doctrine. Where does the hate come from? Palestinians feel they were not given a voice in the partition of the land they were living on to form the state of Israel. That does not condone violence against Israeli civilians. It’s just why they hate Israel.
I won’t address the U.S.S. Liberty any further. The case was hushed up at the highest levels, and the crew were sworn to silence. Only now as the grow old are they speaking their minds. Even the captain condemned the Israelis prior to his death. As to Iran, I would hope America can resist the call from Israel and her allies in America to “de-nuke” that country by military means. Our military efforts have not achieved the advertised results in our most recent efforts. The last thing we ought to do is help Ahmadinejad unite his country against a common enemy. It would be foolish.
” But, Israeli determination to occupy and build settlements on this land they captured in the ‘67 war is what drives me away from supporting them totally.”
OK. If thats the real problem you have I will try to explain your mistake.
First, making a mistake does not make a person a lesser person. I have made a few myself since participating here at PJM and have been glad to have been corrected. I think it is a sign of maturity and self confidence, as well as lucidity, to acknowledge ones own mistakes. In fact one should be grateful that someone took their own time to offer a correction. I say this to you not to seek gratitude or to convince you you are wrong ( hopefully you will come to that conclusion yourself ) but to give you some idea of the spirit with which I am approaching this issue.
Secondly, there is the subject of G-d. I do not know if you believe in G-d or, if you do, what religious practice you keep. If you do then I offer this answer to your questions regarding the ” settlements”. Not one inch of ” settlements ” occupies one grain of sand more than the Almighty gave to the Jews as an eternal land. Now that is not the only reason I have for my position but if you are a G-d fearing person that is enough of an answer. G-d gave and as Creator He does what he wants. Gives to whom He wants. Now no one on the planet, certainly neither Christians or Muslims, can claim they where unaware of this. Some people say that ” ignorance of the law is no excuse ” . I don’t always agree with that statement however when it comes to Israel as the Land of the Jews, no one claim claim ignorance. Christians and Muslims need only pick up their own holy books and read them. When others come to your property and dwell there and don’t know they are trespassing they have no right to remain. Even more so when they know they are trespassing. That is the case with the muslims who seek to tear parts of Israel away from the Jews.
Thirdly, Lets assume you do not believe in G-d. From my point of view that is a naive and uninformed position for anyone to take. As mankind becomes more advanced, rather than dispute the validity of G-ds existence , verifiable evidence of His existance continues to grow on an almost daily basis.
Lets leave all that aside for the moment. Lets just look at some facts and ask some questions. The middle east is a vast territory. The Land of Israel comprises less than one-half of one percent. Ninety-nine and one half percent is ruled by muslims. The muslims who call themselves Palestinians already control eighty percent of the territory of Palestine. Why should they get more?
Since I’m sure you would concede all human beings have rights then Jews have rights to. There are more than fifty countries with official religions. Dozens of christian, muslim and buddhist countries. There is only one Jewish country. That country is Israel. Now you may not think that being a jew gives me special rights. I agree. However my being a jew does not make me entitled to lesser rights. I do not sit at the back of anyones bus, if you know what I mean.
Lastly, I would ask you what makes a country? What gives a people a right to a specific territory? I think the answer to both is intertwined with a peoples history on a land and the willingness of that people to defend their land. Any subjective analysis of the situation draws one to the following conclusions – That few other peoples can prove their historical association with a territory or their willingness to defend that territory despite the odds more so than the Jews of Israel.
Any way, I’ve gone on far too long with this and probably have become boring. I hope I have opened your eyes a bit. I hope my comments have opened your heart as well. MBY
Kudos for excellence ♥Menachem Ben Yakov♥
Reading some of this exchange was heart-wrenching.
Thank you for taking the time to help the blind have some sight.
So David Walters thinks it’s all about the settlements and the occupation? These are the results, not the cause, of 19 years of unrelenting Arab attacks on Israel. There was no ‘occupation of Palestinain lands” in 1948 when the Arab states united to attack the newly declared State of Israel, nor in 1956 when Nasser committed an act of war by barring Israel’s shipping from the Suez Canal, nor in early June of 1967 when Egypt precipiated war again, nor all the years in between when the Arab states unleashed terrorists to inflitrate Israel and murder Israeli civilians. What triggered that hostility was the mere existence of a Jewish state. Not to mention all the attacks on Jews before 1948, when the mere presence of Jews and their movement toward a state was sufficient to provoke th Arabs to mass murder.
Menachem,
Bear with me, I just got in from working outside cutting my lawn. And it is hot.
“making a mistake does not make a person a lesser person.”
-I’ve made my share, and a good person learns from his/her mistakes. I come here to PJM to gain a better understanding, to learn and to share views that run counter to the prevailing thought here. I guess i could comment on Huff Post or Daily Kos, but that would be boring.
As to religious practice, I was raised a Lutheran, but as I grew old enough to question, I found that Martin Luther was quite the anti-Semite. I turned away from it. But I had a good teacher in catechism. I was introduced to the idea of a “Historical Jesus”, where he and his teachings were contextualized in the history recorded for Judea, Jerusalem and the Roman Empire. Since then I’ve read the new testament in it’s entirety, and most of what Christians call the old testament. I see Jesus, not as a God, but as a man with a message. So Pentecostals and Baptists will refer to me as “lost”.
“Not one inch of ” settlements ” occupies one grain of sand more than the Almighty gave to the Jews as an eternal land.”
Christians, Jews, and Muslims pray to the same God. That statement will draw fire from many here at PJM, but that is my working belief. I know nothing of the Koran, but in the Christian and Jewish traditions we learn that God promised the land of Israel to Abraham and his descendants in Genesis. Yet Jews, Christians, AND Muslims claim descent from Abraham.
The claim you make of God’s gift of land to the Jews well known among those here at PJM. There is also a LEGAL basis for the establishment of Israel beginning with The Balfour Declaration of 1917 which stated:
“His Majesty’s government (Great Britain) view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.”
After the Holocaust and the establishment of the United Nations, the state of Israel was established with clearly defined borders. These are the borders that I’ve been referring to, the borders established by the United Nations. Herein lies the problem, since God wasn’t more specific, what else can we go on? The intent was to establish a Jewish homeland AND to respect the non-Jewish communities within those borders. All I ask of Israel is to respect those non-Jews withing their mandated borders, and to respect the mandated border. Sadly, this seems impossible given the bad blood on both sides of this issue. Arab, and Muslims have never respected Israels right to exist, and Israel isn’t living up to the expectation of fair treatment of their non-Jewish population. Both sides in this argument have to give a little to get a settlement and allow the world to live in peace. For the conflict in Israel affects a much wider region, no? The Jesus I have learned taught a message of peace for all people of different ethnicity’s. Jesus was also first and foremost….a Jew.
David, Like yourself I too have been busy so its taken a while to respond to your post. Let me clear up some mistakes -
” I know nothing of the Koran, but in the Christian and Jewish traditions we learn that God promised the land of Israel to Abraham and his descendants in Genesis. Yet Jews, Christians, AND Muslims claim descent from Abraham. ”
When referring to The Bible I am speaking about the original. I do not refer to the Torah as ” the old testament ” which implies a new testament. It is much clearer and intellectually honest to refer to the Torah as the Original Testament or, for the purpose of our discussion, The Bible. I am always amazed how little knowledge most folks have of The Bible. Gleaned for either the movies or comic books little serious study is given.
I don’t like it when people quote scripture to me unless it is Torah scripture. I will not quote scripture to you. However your comment which I quoted is wrong and right. Yes Jews and Muslims are descendants of Abraham. However The bible explicitly states that the land of Israel belongs only to the descendants of Isaac and explicitly excludes the descendants of Ishmael. The Land of israel is Jewish property and belongs to no one else. That is what The Bible says.
” There is also a LEGAL basis for the establishment of Israel beginning with The Balfour Declaration of 1917 which stated….. ”
David, The Balfour Declaration and all subsequent treaties did not establish the legal rights of Jews to the Land of Israel. The recognized the rights of Jews to the Land. The rights of Jews to the Land of Israel predates all of the above. In fact it was The Bible which established the standards for the legal and moral rights of all human beings to own private property.
You said you were busy mowing your lawn. Good. Now I ask you what makes it yours? What is there to prevent someone bigger or more well armed from taking it? The first response from most people is ” I have a deed “! Well David, your deed comes right from The Bible. When Abraham bought the burial place for Sara in Hebron he established the moral criteria for private ownership that is followed by every society today. Who bought and from whom. How much was paid and in what currency. What are the boundaries. Was it done of the parties own free will. Were there witnesses and who were they. Was it written down. Was it made public. All these criteria were established in Justice when Abraham bought the grave for Sara. In fact Davis, The Jews ownership of the Land of israel underpins the moral right of free people everywhere to live in peace on their own property. If the jews do not own The Land, then in a moral sense, you don’t own the lawn you just mowed.
” After the Holocaust and the establishment of the United Nations, the state of Israel was established with clearly defined borders. ”
Again David the UN did not establish Israel. It recognized Israel A huge and very profound difference.
” These are the borders that I’ve been referring to, the borders established by the United Nations. Herein lies the problem, since God wasn’t more specific, what else can we go on? ”
The Almighty was indeed specific and the borders noted in The Bible are still viable today. They will be the borders again. Again I will not quote scripture to you however if you do further research using original sources you will find out for yourself. For no let me assure you the land the ” settlements ” are built on fall within those borders.
” All I ask of Israel is to respect those non-Jews withing their mandated borders, and to respect the mandated border. Sadly, this seems impossible given the bad blood on both sides of this issue.”
In fact Jews are obligated to treat non-Jews within our borders with respect and even charitably. We are required to do so. However there is a mutual responsibility. Non- Jews within our borders must respect our Laws and our rights to The Land. If they do not they are to be treated as criminals. Pretty much like what Americans want when they talk about immigration. Legal is fine. obey the law is fine. Otherwise out you go. In fact I think the problem for the USA is a direct result of the demands of the demands made on Israel to accept a hostile foreign population into its midst. Something to think about.
” Jesus was also first and foremost….a Jew. ”
Having been born in Bethlehem, Jesus would be called, according to the ” world communities ” criteria, a Jewish Settler. Ironic isn’t it.
Oh, yes; it was all the fault of the state of Israel for getting itself founded–otherwise, those large, millennial (in Baghdad, at least) Jewish populations in Arab lands wouldn’t have ‘seen the souring of their relations’ with the Arab majorities (or however the silly man put it).
How did the 1948 founding of Israel force the 1920s pogrom against Jews in Hebron? Why did the PLO charter in 1964 declare its intent to drive the Jews of Israel into the sea, well before ‘the occupation’ began in 1967?
Repeating disproven lies is one of the surest signs of anti-semitism.
How dare you talk about Israel practicing “ethnic cleansing”?
How many age-old populations of Jews inside Arab lands (Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Yemen) had to flee for their lives in the 20th century? Does anyone support their return to their ancestral lands (any more than Jews from Poland could return there, after the Nazi camps)?
Funny, their fellow Jews within the state of Israel didn’t leave them living for decades in ‘refugee camps,’so-called, like the ones that the UN is still supporting for the Arab populations that obeyed their leaders back in 1948 and refused to live in the new land called Israel.
Why don’t the Arabs, if they care so for the “Palestinians,” not take them in and assimilate them into their societies? Could it be that it’s politically useful for them to foster and perpetuate hatred and rejectionism (and suicide bombing) for generations to come?
Suzanne,
Ethnic cleansing. It is a strong charge. Israeli actions in occupied territories seem to indicate that is what is going on. I wish it weren’t true. Bulldozers push down Palestinian homes. Water is cut off from Palestinian villages. It’s not exactly a welcome wagon.
Sure Israel has to protect its self. Israel’s actions ensure the Palestinians remain hostile. That seems to a self perpetuating cycle of war and violence, that ends up costing American Taxpayers. How much money do we shell out to various countries in that region.
I notice there is no reply to the fact of massive 20th cen. ethnic cleansing of Jewish populations from Arab lands.
Nor to the fact that Arabs (and other world governments, through the UN) allow generation after generation of ‘refugees’ to continue living in camps. Why not settlement and integration into an Arab country, the way Jews from Arab lands were taken into Israel?
Who benefits from the continuing grievance-mongering of those ‘refugees’?
“I notice there is no reply to the fact of massive 20th century ethnic cleansing of Jewish populations from Arab lands.”
-Sorry Suzanne,not to sidestep that issue either. ALL ethnic cleansing is bad. Jews lived among Arabs, Persians, Turks and North Africans until recently. After the state of Israel was established in 1948, relations with these embedded Jewish populations soured. These Jews left, mostly for Israel. If we want to go back even longer in history we’ll see ethnic cleansing all over Europe as well. However, Jews for the most part have been relatively accepted in The United States, and it has been to our nation’s benefit!
“Nor to the fact that Arabs (and other world governments, through the UN) allow generation after generation of ‘refugees’ to continue living in camps. Why not settlement and integration into an Arab country, the way Jews from Arab lands were taken into Israel?”
-Not sure why all Palestinians haven’t moved, but certainly many have moved. Some have even moved to The U.S. Many Palestinian young men move away to seek work, and send the money back to their families who hope (I would guess) to be able to reclaim their land (which I believe to be a futile wish).
I know this does not add much to the discussion but doesn’t Stone just look like a schmuck?
Yes, you are right, it adds nothing to the discussion, and yes, he looks like a schmuck. Very good observation though.
Why is it that I feel that Stone had a lot of professional help in writing that letter to Foxman and that it isn’t a reflection of sincere personal feeling?
A nice rule of thumb in distinguishing an anti-Semite from an Israeli-policy critic is the willingness of the person to recognize and condemn those who wish to destroy Israel killing all its Jewish occupants or perhaps simply moving them to Poland. Since Ollie is acting like he’s bosom buds with Iran’s Amanutjob I think you can put him in the self-loathing anti-Semite category.
In Hollywood, it is never a crime for a liberal to be an anti-semite. Or a pedaphile, or a thief, or a rapist (unless he rapes a liberal who is more famous than he is.)
Or a mass murderer or a home-grown terrorist or well, ANY terrorist pretty much.
Between NAMBLA, NAACP, La Raza, Bill Ayers, Rev. Wright, The New Black Panthers, Mao-worship, Ahmadinejad, Chavez, Sherrod, ad infinitum etc. etc. etc.*puke-puke*, ‘The Left’ really has their dance-card full! They must be SO PROUD.
Yeah right. Too bad you don’t really believe any of this.
Yawn. Yet another time that Abe Foxman got snookered by an insincere “apology” of convenience. What a fool. Anyone remember Jimmy Who the Elder’s apology for calling Israel an Apartheid state. It was very low-key and happened just as his grandson was running in a primary in a heavily Jewish district. Of course, the apology wasn’t followed in larger forums than the Jewish media, nor did it lead to any changes in Carter’s pronouncements or a retraction of his vile book.
walter: you are wasting your time on this site. here, if you crtizise Irael and their foregn polcies, you rare villified!! periiod!!! either they call you anti semite, anti jew or if you are a jew critizing Israeli, they call you self hating jews!! Mr. Radosh, Roger Simon and the rest of Neo cons who write this blog, are all educated by the Iranian secret polce and also borrowed a chapter from a….hole Iranian president how to silence people. and here you are. this is what this site iss all about. no dissentionis tollorated
Are you retarded?
No. Really.
Are you?
Oliver Stone’s problem is that he harbors more than a bit of resentment, most likely about his service in Vietnam,among other things. -I can only guess. He allows it to seep out in unhealthy ways that make him look bad at times. I also harbor some ill feelings about past events that didn’t turn out exactly fair, but I try not to let them color my actions and I work hard to choose my words carefully. Not always though, but mostly. Stone has good insight, but sometimes his mouth gets in his way of expressing clearly what he feels. On this issue of “Jewish domination of the media”, he does make himself look bad. It opens up the door for the anti-Semite charge, when I truly doubt he is anti-Semitic, only anti-Israeli, or Zionist. That looses that critical support from the middle…..
Is it right to use economic and political power to silence a criticism you don’t like? I think there is something self-defeating about that, and I think it is also bad for the country. When it goes on long enough, an echo chamber starts to develop, and people become shrill, extreme and self-congratulatory generally.
My sense is that Jews haven’t used power in that way very much, except for “defending” Israel. And that is wrong, and terribly bad for Israel, and–because it dumbs everybody down–bad for American Judaism. But I don’t blame people who do that as bad Jews, but as people who are engaging in bad behavior.
Still, it does impact Jewish values, and it is terribly hard to find a venue to discuss what is happening to Judaism in America, when it has for many people simply become an extension of the state of Israel. When has being a state religion been good for religion? And when is it good to worship a state? Okay, if you feel that way you look around for somewhere to discuss it, and what happens? No matter how sincere you are, no matter how much you want a decent discussion, it seems like very often when you try to discuss this people just start screaming.
The worst part of this is that eventually this kind of undemocratic, self-serving behavior could very well cause a reaction against Jews. Then those of us who are today trying to oppose Islamophobia will have to drop everything and try to defend Jews and Jewish organizations. In the meantime, the Screamers own the conversation, and they’re never wrong because they’re always the victim of something.
Can somebody answer these points without calling me an anti-Semite, self-having whatever, or a terrorist?
Excellent post PilgrimSoul!
gosh – you think self serving behavior in Jews ‘could’ cause a ‘reaction’….
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
only for about the last 5000 years.
Columns like these make this gentile laugh out loud.
Helen Thomas is now the poster girl for Jew hatred. How does such a sliver of Americana destroy so many, over so little???
sheer evil
David Walters, no – America did not ‘save Israel’s ass’ in 1973. While the Soviets massively resupplied the Egyptians and Syrians, the Nixon Administration experienced a ‘bureaucratic problem’ and failed to begin resupply lines for over a week. Books were written over who made this decision.
Before the war began, Meir told Nixon (at least two days before the war) that the Arabs were about to attack. The US told her that if it preempted to destroy Arab formations or aircraft, it would be by itself. Moshe Dayan then persuaded her to sit and absorb the first blow.
Your facts are appallingly wrong.
Repeated C-5′s flew from the United states bringing 155mm rounds and other munitions for the Israeli war effort during Yom Kippur….this is a fact i can attest to, since I personally know a load master on one of these flights.
It’s not about the settlements. It’s about the existence of the State of Israel,period. That is why there is no peace.
Egypt and Jordan once called for the destruction of Israel. They have changed their tune. Diplomacy will work the same on the Palestinians. Military might cannot be continued unto infinity, the United States will run out of money backing up Israel.
“In the letter, President Barack Obama warned president Mahmud Abbas that his refusal to enter into direct negotiations with Israel next month will have consequences for American-Palestinian relations,” – Agence France Presse
I don’t for a second doubt that Stone’s original comments reflect his true beliefs and the man is a raving, holocaust denying (or, at the very least, holocaust minimizing) anti-semetic loon.
However, I take significant issue with Foxman’s knee jerk pro-boycott posture. An apology given under pain of boycott is about as sincere as a religous conversion made under torture. Besides the remedy for bad speech (even really, really bad speech like Stone’s) is more speech not less.
Isn’t time for people to recognize what a dangerous clown Oliver Stone is? His scurrilous, absolute twisting of the Kennedy assassination in JFK has stolen the truth from the living generations that came after Kennedy, and destroys the record for those events for posterity.
Stone is a communist who hates this country, hates everything that is noble in our culture and despises our constitutional processes. He hobnobs with Castro and Chavez; lionizing them when they are common thugs who murdered their way to power.
Why should this man be listened to? On what basis does he have credibility to influence the culture? Oliver Stone is emblematic of the corrupt Leftist Hollywood that is nothing but a cancer to our country.
The best we can do is not give him any attention. Minimize his abhorrent viewpoints and hope that no one will finance his false propaganda in the future.
Oliver Stone?
Color him Mel Gibson.
Nice touch O.S. using his daugher as a prop in that interview.
I hope Stone is history. He’s just another misguided Hollywoood Stalinist.
There are so many lunatic and hateful ideas around — speech is free. But the provision of platforms for that speech are not.
CBS and Showtime ought to have to answer to decent public opinion for allowing themselves to become the vehicle for the injection and promotion of disgraceful, destructive and disgusting ideas into the American mainstream.
Oliver Stone will recede into the dark where he belongs. But it won’t be forgotten that it was they — CBS and Showtime — who ultimately committed this abomination and are responsible for it — their names will long be associated with it. Let it be remembered —
CBS and Showtime — excusers of genocide, Hitler, and promoters of anti-Semitic slanders.
If they refuse to cancel Stone’s screeds, they should be boycotted —
not just for this particular program — but permanently.
I hope Ron Radosh and whoever has a platform will keep reminding the public to do so.
RE: Stone. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Why does everyone tip toe around the fact that Jews are enormously powerful in the media. They did it the old fashion way; they earned it. A group that is only 2 or 3 percent of the population, Jews are the most successful, educated, achievement oriented minority not only in this country, but in the world. That success has translated into political power. Hell, half of the above article makes Stones point. This attitude by the Foxmans of the world to lay low is almost laughable. The truth will set you free.