The level of cultural insanity necessary for thousand of protestors to set fire to the Danish Embassy in Damascus over a cartoon is quite mind-boggling, but not, alas, surprising. (Of course, this is a “culture” that calls Jews the “sons of monkeys and pigs” on a daily basis, but we all know that, don’t we?) The war of civilizations underway is currently spinning out of control. It will be interesting to see how the Danish government responds to this madness, even more interesting to see how Europe in general responds. We could be in the critical moment when big changes begin to occur in the Old Country. The bombings at the Madrid Station or in the London Tube were not enough to do it, but I suspect the very insanity of this reaction is going to have, oddly enough, more resonance. We shall see.
UPDATE: I’m definitely buying Danish. [You needed one of those Hans Christian Andersen sweaters.-ed. And a new knit cap.]
In far too many places where Islam has control things are out of control. Everything will continue to get worse before it can ever begin to get better. It really is sad that an alleged RoP has brought the world to this.
I think we are approaching the tipping point where western civilization is become fully awake to the global fundamentalist islamist threat as our presumed to be “relationship partners” prematurely drop their poker face from hand to hand. Our hugs and kisses are being responded to with having our heads cut off, showing us we are not playing for money, companionship, or love, but for our lives, values, and freedoms. Will a reformation occur in Islam or must we fight the Whirling Dervishes???
Michelle Malkin has a real good video up:
http://media.michellemalkin.com/firsttheycame0545.wmv
The tipping point, from my point of view, is the dehumanization of people into groups. The West fights against defining people into “groups” to some extent…the larger the group the more resistance. The west embraces “individuality.”
Hence, we initially come from the position of finding it repugnant to suggest that a war, in this instance, could be against any religion (a large group), but instead with a preference toward individual criminal conduct or sub-group conspiracy (a smaller fundamentalist group Al-Caida).
This reluctance is also shown by such terms as insurgency, freedom fighter.
When the west finally does dehumanize or accept a group, particularly larger groups without exceptions (for example, the “japs”) the west can attain a level of violence driven by our individualism, or love of self, that hasn’t been historically matched by violence driven in the name of emperors, gods, and love of dictators.
The fundamentalists seem to have applied the dehumanization/grouping process early on (infidels, pigs), while the west has demonstrated the tendancy to avoid it (“War against Terror” is a good example). The recent cartoons are, for me, evidence that the western dehumanization process is beginning in earnest and “grouping” is underway to allow us to fight in earnest for ourselves – as well as our culture, freedom, values, etc.
Another way to look at it, a metric if you wish, is the willingness to accept collateral damage is directly related to the degree of dehumanization…the willingness to accept civilian casualties, particularly those of women and children. The West has not gotten to that point yet, but it seems a lot of Islamic Fundamentalists reached that point long ago.
Our insanity is only a tipping point away from dealing with their insanity. (My own writing style evidences where I am as well.)
Freedom of expression, one of the cornerstones both of Western values and Western success, necessarily implies freedom for some to say things both stupid and offensive to others.
The old Voltairean cliche, to the effect that I will defend to the death people’s right to say stupid things, is apropos.
The military emphasis, although not absent from Jewish or Christian scriptures and history, is peculiarly salient in Islam, if not in the practice of many Muslims today.
The embassy burnings, the calls to decapitate cartoonists, and so on, could be a watershed. We may limp on for awhile with a sort of half-truce, but if we slip into a conflict of civilizations, the price to be paid will be horrific. The West has in the past has seen the loss of freedom as even worse. Will we climb down Brokeback Mountain and man the ramparts?
Semi-truce or conflict, we will need leaders far wiser and more resolute than we have had up to now.
Yes, utter insanity in action.
And the only reasonable response to people like that is not confrontation, but disengagement. Israel is learning this lesson bitterly in the West Bank and Gaza. When will the ‘clash of civilizations’ crowd in America learn the same lesson?
Disengage to where and how far markus? We are the center of the circle, like it or not. Disengagement would eventually lead to disappearance.
And the only reasonable response to people like that is not confrontation, but disengagement.
I don’t understand what “disengagement” is supposed to mean in actual practice. I’m afraid that it means something like, “Let them fester in peace; let them hatch their plots and plan their plans without interference until, when some perceived slight like a disrepectful cartoon serves as a convenient trigger, they will be able to erupt in some well-planned spasm of violence against their Western target of choice.”
And if it doesn’t mean what I’m afraid it means, then what does it mean?
Markus
Disengagement was called Isolationism in the thirties. Been there done that. One can’t disengage from a pit bull except by killing it. The jihadis are like pit bulls, they don’t care what happens to them or us.
This war has been a long time coming and there is no avoiding it. The Islamists want the war, they live for the war, they will have their war. They will continue to push us until we finally respond and then there will be no mercy for them. They will get what they are demanding. Millions of innocents on both sides will likely die, but we shall prevail.
The level of violence in these protests, and their advocacy of violence, is disturbing. Like many of you, I see this as a tipping point. What message will Europe choose to send? Will it defend its Enlightment tradition of freedom of speech, or will it submit to its newer tradition of tolerance of all diversity, including the tolerance of intolerance towards freedom of speech, if that speech is not PC?
I attempt to treat these questions here.
markus:
It is hard to disengage when they are freaking everywhere. These crazy people are in the Middle East, the Arab world, Iran, Indonesia…they are killing people in Thailand and the Phillipines and Israel and Kashmir and India. There is no way to disengage.
Like a junkie craving a fix, “markus” can’t let this controversy go by without taking yet another thinly veiled shot at Israel. Never mind the fact that the Arab world has been spewing out vitriolic antisemitic propaganda for decades – that’s probably all Sharon’s and Bush’s fault, right?
This may not be the tipping point. It doesn’t matter. We can be virtually guaranteed that another provocation, and another, and yet another will soon be on its way. And we won’t have to wait nine years. It will become increasingly harder every few months to ignore the elephant in the European living room.
Tipping point?? You’re all daft. The Euros will now begin practicing self-censorship. Heard of any books satirizing Islam since Salman Rushdie??
The Lit crowd learned their lesson. The Journos will now assume the fetal position and ‘disengage’.
vegetius – the great unwashed are also learning their lesson.
Since they’re not allowed guns, they’re sharpening their pitchforks.
Or buying property around Orlando.
Speaking of the Lit crowd, I called the moonbat members of my book group hypocrites displaying an uncharacteristic lack of curiosity for not thinking that the MSM was remiss in not showing the cartoons to let the reader/viewer decide for him/herself what the reaction was about. BDS has reached epidemic levels.
And the only reasonable response to people like that is not confrontation, but disengagement.
Given the tone of the protests in London, how do you suggest we “disengage” from the lunatics living in the middle of Britain?
I think the reaction in Syria was promoted by Assad to take some heat off himself. In a controlled society like Syria, stuff doesn’t just happen.
There is no taboo in my religion against drawing cartoons of religious figures. I will not be forced to live by the dictates of another religion. I hope Europe adopts that stance, or they are lost. Their first mistake was adopting hate speech laws. Some idiot in our Congress (Conyers, I think) was trying to do the same here.
“Yes, utter insanity in action.
And the only reasonable response to people like that is not confrontation, but disengagement. Israel is learning this lesson bitterly in the West Bank and Gaza. When will the ‘clash of civilizations’ crowd in America learn the same lesson?”
Posted by: markus [TypeKey Profile Page] at February 4, 2006 11:24 AM
this is simply a repeat performance for markus.
there “is no clash of civilizations”,
he’s smarter than everyone else,
his ideas are more effective than what’s being done now,
but,as always,
he’s unwilling to lay out his solutions for objections or testing.
and no one is surprised.
PS – Israel is learning that disengagement and the Barrier have cut the rate of suicide bombings inside Israel.
Disengagement is also bringing the Pali’s behavior to a head….
inability to govern,internal conflicts between socio-religious mafias,and on and on…
I’m not certain it’s the Israelis
who are going to be learning the “bitter lessons”.
_________________________________
“Tipping point?? You’re all daft. The Euros will now begin practicing self-censorship.
Heard of any books satirizing Islam since Salman Rushdie??
The Lit crowd learned their lesson.
The Journos will now assume the fetal position and ‘disengage’. ”
Posted by: vegetius at February 4, 2006 02:49 PM
“The Journos will now assume the fetal position and ‘disengage’.”
vegetius -
i’d suggest a lot of this has occurred
because the Journos never were “engaged”.
-gumshoe
We were told (especially here in Old Europe) that violence begets violence. But where are the mobs in Copenhagen or Oslo burning mosques and calling for a new crusade? What we have here is a “cycle of violence” that goes only one way. Remember that the next time you hear those empty phrases applied to Israel or anywhere else.
gumshoe — “simply a repeat performance for markus…he’s smarter than everyone else…”
Such impressions are entirely subjective — from my point of view, I’m acutely aware of my intellectual shortcomings.
“he’s unwilling to lay out his solutions for objections or testing.”
I’m unsure of those solutions! The only thing I’m sure about is that I’m skeptical of anyone who has pat answers.
I’m of two minds. One, if radical islamism really is a sort of cancer, why not treat it as such? If “disengagement” sounds too much like appeasement, how about “quarantine”? This means building fences — no more immigrants from Muslim countries, no more democracy crusades, crash program to move toward a post-oil economy.
Or: stand firm, while talking (and listening) with a cool head. For instance, Bush and European leaders could release a joint statement condemming religious defamation, condemming those who respond to religious defamation with violence, and condemming the defamation of Jews and other religious groups that we often see coming from Muslim nations.
One more thing. In many if not most European countries, you can get thrown in jail for disparaging homosexuals, denying the Holocaust, and other hate speech. There countries would have more moral authority to stand up against Muslim censorship calls if they enshrined in law the absolute right to political speech.
markus -
thank you for posting both a sincere reply,
and attempt at formulating some ideas about action.
please accept my apologies
for mischaracterizing your initial intent.
i would like to point out though:
“he’s unwilling to lay out his solutions for objections or testing.”[i'll grant you have just done so,but with little confidence or conviction]
‘I’m unsure of those solutions! The only thing I’m sure about is that I’m skeptical of anyone who has pat answers.’
‘I’m of two minds.’
life doesn’t wait for us to decide.
how long do you have
to “be of two minds”?
is there an outside possiblility
you’re being toyed with?
that what you imagine to be “choices”,
if they exist,are between not
good and bad, but bad or worse?
the Islamists
are _not_ playing “politics as civics”.
and *they know it*.
it is clear,to me,that you do not know it.
they are playing “politics as war by other means”.
the timing of the riots and protests makes it clear.
1)
the likelyhood of prodding by Iran
for European unrest is unproven in a criminal-court sense,
but very plausible given the timing…
namely the referral of Iran
to the UN Security Council.
2)
in addtion(viz:embassy attacks in Syrian)
the Syrian gov’t is hearing that documents uncovered and analyzed related to WMD from Iraq are due to be aired in the US mid-February.
3)
Assad is under essentially DIRECT
UN investigation for the murder/assasination of the Lebanese Hariri.
4)
the cartoons got no play in Oct 2005 when the Danish cartoon article appeared.
(which ,lost in the uproar,was focussed
on Islamist intimidation of free-speech…
an attempt to enforce Sharia thru intimidation,
essentially)
so…no play 5 months ago.
why now???
_______________________________________
as has been posted elsewhere…
the Danes “insult” the Muslim world,
and Iran “answers the insult” by holding a
“Holocaust Cartoon Contest”…
the “Danes Attacked Us!!!”
“LET’S GET THE JOOOS!!!”
it’s a freakin’ broken record.
at least begin from square one.
LOOK at what the world is dealing with.
LOOK at the record of behavior.
connect the dots.