Why It’s OK for the U.S. Govt. to Burn Bibles But Condemn Burning the Koran
F. Scott Fitzgerald said that the ability to hold two contradictory ideas in the mind simultaneously was a mark of genius.
If that were true, the U.S. government must be full of geniuses. Consider: it was just a week or two ago that everyone from Sen. Lindsey Graham (R., sort of, SC) to Gen. David Petraeus and Sec. of State Hillary Clinton loudly condemned the Rev. Terry Jones for presiding over his Koran barbecue. Burning a holy book, you see, was hateful, intolerant, and extremely disrespectful.
That’s how General Petraeus put it: “hateful, intolerant, extremely disrespectful.”
For his part, Sen. Lindsey wondered aloud on Face the Nation about how the government could “push back” against individuals who did such things. “Free speech is a great idea,” he said, “but we’re in a war.” Ann Barnhardt did for Lindsey Graham what Apollo did for Marsyas, and I hope that who ever runs against him in 2014 plays his statement and Ms. Barnhardt’s video again and again and again.
But back to the question of genius. The U.S. government under Barack Obama is deeply committed to battling any belittlement, criticism, or questioning of Islam. (“I consider it part of my responsibility as President of the United States,” he said, “to fight against negative stereotypes of Islam wherever they appear.”)
At the same time, however, it is OK, in the Obama regime [SEE BELOW FOR AN UPDATE], for the U.S. government to burn Bibles. Yes, that’s right. Bibles were sent to U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan. But the U.S. government determined that the presence of Bibles in this “devoutly Muslim country” might inflame the natives. So they burned them. Why did they burn them? Because it is military policy to burn its trash.
So, the Bibles, according to U.S. policy, are trash, garbage, and it’s OK to burn them.
When it comes to the Koran, however, an official Department of Defense memo specifies a rather different procedure. Item 4, “Handling”:
- Clean gloves will be put on in full view of the detainees prior to handling.
- Two hands will be used at all times when handling the Koran in manner signaling respect and reverence. Care should be used so that the right hand is the primary one used to manipulate any part of the Koran due to the cultural association with the left hand. Handle the Koran as if it were a fragile piece of delicate art.
Isn’t that nice? Handle it “as if it were a fragile piece of delicate art.” But burn the Bible because it is just part of your trash.
This is one where I’m afraid I’m on the other side. In an abstract, ideological way you’re right, but in a real-world, practical fashion you’re wrong, and if the government took your attitude it could cost some of our soldiers their lives, and make fighting the war (especially in Afghanistan) much harder. The Muslim and Arab world is remarkably ignorant, largely illiterate (especially Afghanistan) and very superstitious. We can expect progress in that world (in terms of cultural sophistication, etc.) only slowly, and until then things like burning the Koran are going to have consequences. The thing to take away from this, at least as far as I’m concerned, is that burning bibles (or a Torah) would be considered a horrific act by Christians (or Jews for that matter) but no one would riot and try to kill someone. This is because our society has gotten sophisticated enough to recognize that the act tells you a lot more about the perpetrator than it does what they’re burning, or the people who consider it holy. The Muslims and the Arab world in general aren’t there yet. That doesn’t mean that we burn Korans until they understand, it means that we have to spend a lot of time trying to get their society to grow up.
P.S. Your article makes it sound as if the bibles that were burned were being sent *to* the troops for their own use. If I understand it correctly, the bibles that were burned were in Dari and Pashtun, and that they were burned because it was feared they would be used to proselytize. Yes, again, Muslims expect to be able to spread their religion but abhor the spread of anyone else’s. We can’t just throw them into the deep end of the pool and expect them to turn from non-swimmer to Mark Spitz in 5 seconds.
Our military officials could have sent the Bibles back to the U. S. Why did they choose to burn them? Were they trying to impress the Muslims?
The Muslims responding to Rev. Jones did not attack our troops or put them in harm’s way; the Muslims attacked and murdered UN personnel, who had nothing to do with Rev. Jones. So, if the murderous Muslims didn’t harm our troops, is it okay that Rev. Jones burned his copy of the Koran?
You seem to believe that it’s okay to proscribe free speech in this country if that speech has a harmful effect in another country. That’s a very impractical belief to hold. As Lindsey Graham (last seen crying in the men’s room) said, “We’re at war.” We shouldn’t be conducting anger management classes for the Afghans — they could not care less.
Several things:
I never advocated restricting free speech. I happen to find the idea that restricting an act like burning a book is only tenuously “speech” anyway, but in addition to that I never advocated making it illegal. There are lots of things that are legal, but which I think unwise or otherwise objectionable. This would be one of them.
No, I wasn’t saying that the sole issue was protecting U.S. troops. If I said or implied that I certainly didn’t mean it. I do, however, believe that our troops could be endangered by such an action, and obviously other individuals are vulnerable also.
I keep saying: this isn’t just an ideological issue, it’s also a practical one. Winning a war is a supremely, ruthlessly pragmatic pursuit. Often, you are presented with a menu of bad choices, and you must pick the one that’s the least bad, so that you lose the smallest number of your own soldiers. Trust me, almost no soldiers who are on the ground in Iraq will want the Koran burned; this long into things, they know what it would mean.
ok david, if the muslims said if we didn’t take all christian content off our airways our troops would be endangered would you agree we must do this to “protect out troops”. if the muslims said if we did not force all our women to wear burqas our troops would be endangered would you agree we must do this to “protect out troops”. exactly where do you draw the line on dhimmitude in order to “protect out troops”
Appolgists keep on about how we are ‘in a war’ but since when has appeasing the enemy been a reasonable war stategy?
If we are in a war with islam, surely our soldiers should allowed to shoot back?
If we are at war with islam, why are we allowing the building of mosques (enemy barracks according to Erdogan)?
If this is a war, the koran is enemy propogander and should be forbidden, or at least openly critised.
There are so many holes in the leftist arguments – we must win because the rights of women are more important that the feelings of fascists!
gsw-Precisely.The Islamic enemy IS at war with the west, but the west is playing footsie.
The proof is in the burning of bibles, juxtaposed against the ‘delicate, reverence’ for the Koran.
Delusional is as delusional does……
gsw – Thank you for raising my awareness of a previously unknown term, coined in 1982. For those of you not paying attention: “dhimmitude [derived from Islamic "dhimmi"] – represents a behavior dictated by fear (terrorism), pacifism when aggressed, rather than resistance, servility because of cowardice and vulnerability. [...] By their peaceful surrender to the Islamic army, they obtained the security for their life, belongings and religion, but they had to accept a condition of inferiority, spoliation and humiliation.
Wow, that says it all.
“The Muslim and Arab world is remarkably ignorant, largely illiterate (especially Afghanistan) and very superstitious.”
All the more reason to treat them with contempt.
How is that supposed to work? We treat them with contempt, and they do likewise. Has anyone read of the behavior of the 9/11 hijackers before 9/11? They had a profound distaste for our country (in between visits to the titty bars and so forth) and frankly hate our society. So…there are 700 million of them, or something, and you wish to treat them with contempt. What sort of end game to our war with radical Islam do you see, if we treat the *whole* religion with contempt? Perhaps we should just nuke them all? But wait, there’s a large population here…maybe we should round them all up?
What I’m trying to advocate here is a way to isolate the extremist elements within the larger group, and encourage moderation in the rest. Treating them all with contempt is hardly likely to accomplish that.
But their religion has declared you contemptuous, as of 1400 years ago.
Wake up to the fact that a Westerner cannot go around projecting his thoughts and ideas onto another culture as distinctly different as the Muslim one. In some areas your behaviour is defined as Cognitive Egocentrism.
Because your politicians, diplomats and military are prepared to burn their cultural heritage to kowtow to the enemy, this act in the eyes of that enemy demonstrates how debased the foe he faces really is and he becomes even more contemptuous of you.
right david we MUST treat them with great respect and reverence while they show their contempt for us…if we don’t they will kill us….violence and intimidation is always the way to DEMAND respect and reverence
“What I’m trying to advocate here is a way to isolate the extremist elements within the larger group”
Hmmm, maybe Start With “Isolating” Mohammed…
His “extremist” life and deeds.
His terroristic message, and his incredibly bloody vision of a vicious, angry and evil God.
Isolate the “extremist element” of Mohameed, Dave, and you have no Islam.
Violence, hatred and subjugation is the Very Core of what their “religion” is about, Dave
So what you (like so many others) seem to be advocating is, a “steath” conversion of them to a more Christian-like world view….
Get them to think, live, act, and value life the way we do, but keep the trappings and rituals: feet washing, “moderate” required female headgear, traditional foods, holidays, songs, and yes of course, an “acceptable level” of “normal” anti-semitism, like we tolerate in the west, and maybe, just maybe, they wont notice their FOUNDING MESSIAH, and every word and command ever SPOKEN by him, have simply, quietly dissappeared without them noticing.
Not. Gonna. Happen.
“Isolate the extremists from the larger group?” I have news for you buddy. There are no extremists. There is only islam and apostasy. Nothing in-between.
A remarkably paternalistic defense of the “murderers’ veto.” What century is this?
If you look at history, the great Library of Alexandria was one of the pearls antiquity. Egypt was invaded by the Arab armies, yet they left the library alone. When the Turks took over, they were the new zealots and burned the library. Lost in the fire were precious and only copies of the greatest works in antiquity. The library and its works were in direct conflict with new interpretation of the Koran. We see a parallel today with the Taliban blowing up the giant Buddahs of their country, again the world lost priceless artifacts to the dogma of the Koran. These actions were mirrored time and again by the burning of churches and synagogues all over the Moslem domain. We can see another parallel, that of the Japanese militarism. Japan had to be totally defeated to recognize that their dogma was not valid. Here are two parallels. Draw your own conclusions.
All of your historical examples are more or less accurate. However, the conclusion you seem to want to draw is essentially impractical. I’m sure, if we instituted a draft and were willing to spend unlimited amounts of money, and lose unlimited numbers of soldiers, we could defeat all the Muslim countries in the world, simultaneously, and occupy them. Perhaps, in a decade or a generation, we could then generate some more moderate Muslims from among the children of the conquered. Anyone who thinks this is a believable scenario, please rethink it. The country couldn’t even stomach 10 years in Iraq (to my mind too short a time in itself; we were there nowhere near long enough).
So what are you proposing?
That we curl up into the fetal position and submit.
Of course, burn our bibles, throw out our literature and music and repress our thoughts as we are dictated to, to eat with the right hand and perform sanitary matters with the left hand.
Obviously from the manner in which you write it seems that you have not cottoned on to what is really going on.
Ah, but the apocolyptic war you are envisioning is coming sooner or later. And you are right; we could probably defeat them in an extremely bloody confict worse than WW2. But why dodge the fact that it is coming whether we like it or not? If we wait long enough until they all have nukes, then what?
Actually, the history he provides is utter crap.
The Library in Alexandria was not in existence by the time of the Turkish conquests. Part of it was destroyed by Caesar in 47 BC during the Alexandrian Campaign, more was destroyed by Aurelian when he took the city back from Zenobia around 274 AD, yet more following the anti-pagan decree of Theodoseus in 391 and it was all gone, or finally finished off depending on the source, by the time of Caliph Omar in 640 or so. The Turks did not control Egypt until the 16th century, almost a thousand years, at least, after the Library had ceased to exist.
Mr. Nicholas, yours is an expression of “the soft bigotry of low expectations”. You assume a divide between the average Afghan and the average secular Westerner that no longer exists – superstition is hardly limited to the third world.
When Osama bin Laden observed that “people like the strong horse”, he wasn’t singling out Muslims or Arabs. More and more Europeans and Americans are converting to Islam – and this craven double-standard of Western governments is helping to fuel it.
Submitting to Islam doesn’t ensure safety from Islamist bullies, but it helps a lot. And Islamic apostates are marked for death.
How many Muslims are there? A hundred mil? A billion? People say we can’t war against the International Jihad because of these numbers. But if most Muslims had an alternative, they would happily switch from Sharia and from enforced prayer.
The Jihad cycle makes a violent challenge every 150 years or so – we have to face it down with confidence or submit to it. Efforts to appease it only encourage more barbarity.
How is it we are to “get their society to grow up”? America’s founders relied heavily on the Old and New Testaments, they gave us a society of rights and responsibilities that was pretty “grown up”. But we’ve turned away from responsibility, toward the ACLU, and now we subsidize crucifix-in-urine “art”: not so “grown up”, and pretty “weak horse”.
I’m trying to advocate a response more sophisticated than “bombing them back to the stone age”, especially since they’re only a generation away from it and in reality could easily and happily revert to primitive circumstances if driven there. Everyone seems to think that if we just insist that we have the same right to burn Korans that others have to burn bibles, somehow the Muslim world will collectively say “Oh, they’re serious. We’d better not challenge them then.” You need to understand that these people, the extremists, think that they can defeat us, not because they’re skilled soldiers or brave warriors, but because Allah is on their side. This means that they welcome the challenge. I know that you’d like to allow them to kill themselves attacking our soldiers (and I sympathize with the sentiment, believe me) but eventually we have to find a way to win this, and it’s not going to be through killing all of the members of al Qaeda. We can’t find all of them, let along kill them.
As for their society growing up, Western culture (through the internet, video, and so forth) does that on its own, slowly. Why do you think governments in the Middle East and elsewhere work so hard to control these venues? No one, not in the Middle East, South America, Asia, wherever, wants to pay high taxes and have no say in how their country’s leadership operates, in exchange for that leader lining his own pockets with government money. So of course the leadership covers itself by shouting “Death to America” every once in awhile.
I have the right to walk down the street in my city and confront drug dealers, telling them to get off the streets. Just because I have the right doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be suicidal to do so. Practical restrictions on action are more or less required, at times, and acting as if they’re not there is just ill-informed.
the flaw in your argument is the reason that the extremism is so prevalent in muslim countries is because no one speaks out against them instead they have spent decades appeasing them and keeping silent hoping they will just go away. 9/11 is proof of how well that stance has worked.
All that is necessary for evil to triumph is that good men (and women) do nothing
We need to stop the nation building. We need to fire-bomb them (Dresdan and Tokyo style) in their metro areas. Nuke Mecca and Medina if you have to. Get them in the place where tribal barbarians are lynched by their neighbors.
“This…up.” (didn’t want to cite the whole quote)
Then why are we fighting for them? Why in God’s name are we losing our blood and treasure for these sub-humans?
Your critique of the post flys in the face of what we are doing over there in the first place. Sharia and western values are incompatible.
That is the most absurd statement – like, the muzzies will STOP trying to kill soldiers and civilians if the butt-wipe paper called the ‘koran’, is NOT burned? Or will they just try harder than usual to kill soldiers and murder civilians if the babblings of the Pervert Prophet, may p*ss be upon him, IS burned?
How utterly ludicrous. Those who seek to live their lives according to what the muzzies do like or don’t like, are free to move to any of their third world hell-holes and do whatever the mullah tells them; if they do not like living in the nation which has a Bill of Rights and a Constitution providing for freedom of speech, then they are under no compulsion to remain.
When ‘earth day’ comes around a number of us will be burning korans in a tribute to Al ‘global warming’ Gore and as a way of saying F U to the spirit of mooohammud, which at this tiem is burning like a coal in the fires of Hell.
How long do we continue to give credence to offending this 7th century death cult in the hope they won’t kill us?
Read the koran and open your eyes, they have the command, will and intent to kill infidels wherever they may find them, lying is proscribed if it furthers the cause if islam.
You never appease a bully as it just makes him bolder.
I think that the burning was despicable but Ann Burnhardt(sp?) summed it up quite rationally in my book.
Every imaginable misconception about the West’s proper treatment of the lunacy called Islam and the insane asylum called the Muslim Middle East is on display in your comment.
One does not pander to the violent; one faces them down, responding with retaliatory violence in the degree required to quell them permanently. Savages will evolve under that pressure and no other. NB: This will occasionally fail…but it fails by eliminating the “patient” population. Of the available failure modes, it’s the most preferred.
We can’t “throw them (Muslims) into the deep end” — ? Why not? For 1400 years they’ve been aggressively intolerant, expansionist in the most condemnable way, and incapable of assimilating to any other culture that’s allowed them ingress. On only two occasions has world Islam had to give serious ground: 732 and 1683. Nothing has advanced their civilization, or protected ours, except those shattering defeats. Contrariwise, our attempts to placate them, and play by an inclusivist playbook, have brought us our current age, with all its Islam-powered troubles. Why repeat what’s never worked?
Finally, to separate Islam from our struggles with Muslims is impossible. Islam is not “a feature” of their culture; it is their culture, and must be defeated as thoroughly as any barbarian horde before its current allegiants can become reasonably safe neighbors for civilized men. No attempt to treat the proclamations of Islam as somehow separable from Muslim intolerance and violence has borne any but the bitterest fruit. We must regard it as our ultimate enemy, just as we once regarded Communism. No other approach makes sense.
Amen.
i second that amen
Indeed. But it’s amazing how many fail to see these elementary truths.
After reading the main post and all that followed, all I can think of is, your expressions, laudable as they may sound, are in fact nothing more that dhimmitude. However enlightened you may think your comments are, your attitude shows you have already submitted.
My condolences, sir.
To tolerate evil is to condone evil, to promote evil, to subsidize evil, to support and defend evil, to participate in evil; to practice evil; to persecute those who resist evil. Got it?
The solution is not to give in to the unreasonable demands of the crazies, but to insist on doing the right thing. We want to convert moslems so they won’t go to Hell. Pretending that there is salvation outside Jesus Christ is stupid.And sinful. Would you like some nice koolaid for your cancer?
The Moslem-in-Chief doesn’t really believe that God sent a murderous child molester, adulterer, robber, crazy, as His prophet- he just uses Islam to promote his own political agenda; a megalomania exacerbated by substance abuse.
The moral morons who installed this monstrosity in the White House need to repent and get him out of there before they, too, find themselves enslaved by Sharia and persecuted by imams.
Do you know the word “Dhimmi”?
Hint: you see one daily.
“. . . . it was feared . . . .”:
Yeah, “David W Nicholas”, I agree with you: war is so difficult—all that darned killing and blood and long-term injuries and stuff, and contractors cheating their own nation out of a lotta money, and like you say, just a whole lotta fear—why do guys join up, anyway? You know what I’m sayin’—don’t you think, there ought to be a law—why doesn’t somebody just make it illegal or something, you know, for all that darned fear and just everything?
Except that, than mere David W Nicholas Milquetoast rationalizations, there is another angle—lemme know what you think:
To any one of whole mind, surely, the amount of violence and advocacy for violence pouring forth from Moslems—equal to their originator’s writings—the abundance of threats and on, staggers imagination.
To understand that Islam was generated by a man—by a bad man—and for men—bad men—and is maintained to the same end, and that, wherever it goes, necessarily, it must reproduce slums similar to those of long existence in the Middle Eastern nations, no great erudition or powers of logic is required; it is easily explainable: In connection with the increase in violent crime which European nations are sustaining, scholars point out the effect of the Moslem community’s centuries of 1st cousin marriage, as producing 3X rate of birth defects and diminished IQ with emotional instability; simply put, very many of them are genetic throwbacks.
It follows then, that, generally, the Moslems’ personalities are not so much shaped by beliefs and doctrines—things which are susceptible of individual thought processes and consequent opinions—but their personality development is rather, entwined in mere patterns of behavior—things of common inculcation and acquiescence, even by the so-called moderate whom some suppose to be among them. And partly, no doubt, in this way, many mature Moslems feel it reasonable to teach mayhem unto their young—and have so done, time out of mind, and in every place which they come to inhabit.
And, it also follows then, that—as in those nations wherein they are newly found and ubiquitous—to the same end of physical survival—food and clothing, and so forth—as any other cult, inevitably, Moslems are thus constrained by circumstance to be parasitic to the host society; for, unable to build their own nations, they are predatory upon what good is to be found in any other, and the slums which all of the Middle Eastern nations are, must be reproduced in Europe and elsewhere.
But what to do? Well, I would marvel to know just when there shall have been sufficient record of anti-social and criminal activity—the world round—to have the nasty thing recognized in law as criminal / terrorist assets seized, wiretaps, trials, etc., and with a view to at least freeing many, many women and even more children—and yes, David, I am holding my breath just a’waitin’ for ya’ t’get back to me, . . . I hope Ic’n hang on, . . . And lemme know why you think that, Islam is a religion, . . . that should be interesting for mere contrariety to logic, . . .
If you are afraid of our troops being killed over the burning of the koran. Then you have no idea of what a free America is or should I say was free. We could end this war in 15 minutes if our government wanted to, but they don`t. We would not even have to drop a bomb or fire a missile! Please do not use the word general to describe Petraeus. General Patton would have bitch slapped Petraeus a long tine ago. Our own government has no respect of our military personal, or they would let them do their job. We have the greatest people in our military, best fighting force and we put them in harms way and tie their hands!
David,
I understand what you are saying, how actions in this country can have a negative impact on others. However, that being said, using the Neville Chamberlain play book doesn’t work out well. In fact it shows to your enemy that you’re afraid of them, giving them range and justification to demand more from you.
Furthermore, it sets precedence that some radicalized Christian sect may see how they are getting mis-treated, see how the Muslims are treated, and come to a realization that the only way to get treated with respect by this administration is to perform a terroristic attack.
I assume that the common rule for Hollywood and TV is always to depict pious Moslems in a sympathetic light, pious Christians as dubious characters, probably as sexually dysfunctional hypocrites.
David W Nicholas ; horsefeathers! Why not just tell them barbarity is cool? When you kowtow to barbaric behavior, you give that behavior credence, as though it were legitimate. And if you expect someone to treat religious views with respect, then you better treat all religious views with respect. Otherwise you yourself are inciting hatred and intolerance by being hypocritical.
And what do you do with a witch?
“You shall not suffer a witch to live.”
“but we’re in a war.”
True. So why don’t we go kill the guys that murdered those people in Afghanistan?
They’re the ones we’re having a war against. Sparing their feelings isn’t the goal. Wiping them off the face of the planet is the goal.
And, once we’ve exterminated the Muslim fanatics, then we won’t have to worry how they react to the burning of their holy book. Dead men don’t kill U.N. aid workers. Dead men spend all their time staring up at six feet of dirt.
“Gen. David Petraeus”
And, that guy shouldn’t be in command. He’s a thinker and a paper-pusher, not a soldier.
We need a warrior to lead actual military operations, not a do-gooder or a philosopher.
Agreed- General Betrayus has no place there but was given as a sop to the muzzies by their Kenyan in DC. I don’t recall a good one in combat in those two theaters since Gen. Schwartzkopf
Every time I wonder if my anger and disgust are an over-reaction to things going against my political bent, I see things like this and I know that anger and disgust are justified. The forces of evil Sharia and the malefactors who would impose it upon us must be fought and defeated.
“Handle the Koran as if it were a fragile piece of delicate art.”
Flinch reaction: Does that mean to immerse it in a jar of urine?
Criminy….
I don’t see what the big deal is about burning a koran….I use a page from it every time I have to take a mohammed….much softer than Charmin
It is completely irrelevant to the Islamic, inhuman, hate filled murderers that their victims were INNOCENTS who had absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to do with burning the Koran. They wanted and craved innocent infidel blood.
God’s Biblical Laws are eternal. No man or any religion can change G-D’s Holy Laws! God commanded:
YOU SHALL NOT MURDER
A 2003 fatwa ruled the Bible suitable for use by Muslims when cleaning after defecation.
http://www.meforum.org/2867/jihad-ethiopia-christ…
Bible, Psalm 119:120 My flesh trembles for fear of You, and I am afraid of Your judgments.
Who will dare to treat our Mighty God – Creator of the Universe, with such filth and evil?
Millions upon millions of Christians and Jews must hold PEACEFUL, global massive street protests to PROTEST this absolute evil.
When do we march?
The sort of people who would “Cross the sea to win a convert and when he is converted make him twice as much a child of Gehenna as themselves.” As the Pharisees preferred Talmud to actual Scripture and self-righteousness to Jesus’ genuine righteousness, so did Mohammed like the mantle of “Prophet” and “Apostle” that his itching ears gave him over to whatever he wanted to hear from seducing spirits. It made him into a fanatic false prophet, and his followers have become even worse! As evil as Mohammed was, he at least had some semblance of a sense of justice and piety. Those he converted lack even that! Truly, they are twice the children of Gehenna as those who taught them.
Myth Buster,
You may wish to change your web name. The Talmud did not exist when Jesus lived. It was compiled a couple of centuries later.
I can’t wait for the 2012 election and see if the electorate will throw this Muslim administration out of power or they will just repeat the folly of 2008!!!
The issue was not about burning books but about inciting riots.
The issue then becomes where and when to fight ones battles as opposed to doing it just because you can do it.
I disagree. The issue is whether or not you refrain from exercising your Constitutional rights just because some ignorant, murderous barbarians on the other side of the world might behave like ignorant, murderous barbarians. Have they no responsibility for their own actions? Compare book-burning and murder, and discuss.
You said the same thing as I and then said you disagree. You might want to discuss the idea of burning words as opposed to reading them inside your own head.
i see koran burning as a tremendous opportunity
what is the problem with buring a koran, waiting for the resulting riots, then drop a moab on top of the rabble rousers?
seems like a pretty simple way to bring these rodents out into the open
I second this motion.
And help them start their journey to allah via .308. (repeat as necessary)
That someone performs an act you view as incitement to riot is no excuse to riot. Humans are expected to be more than bundles of reflexes.
If — as you seem to believe — Muslims are nothing more than animals, incapable of self-restraint, then what should the world’s civilized humanity do?
I don’t believe muslims are animals – I believe people in a crowed theater are.
So if the people in the crowded theater behave like animals,(i.e. rioting, buring, killing) who would they be Mr. May?
Ummmmmmmmmm. Muslims?
My instinct is to insist we do it everywhere and anywhere. Desensitation therapy DOES work. Eventually. And picking your battles? Where? If *I* were to burn a Koran and publicize it, and it got noticed, Muslims in Afghanistan would commit barbarities. Excuse me? (And Terry Jones was about as well known – if not less – than I am prior to his “I’m gonna BURN” statement to the press.)
These guys are just nuts. . Desensitation therapy, with SERIOUS reprisals for violent response, is the only way to stop this nonsense. (Anyone heard about Indians still practicing Suttee nowadays?) It may still happen, but it’s VERY rare.
“You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours.”
The other side of the coin has this question: “What will the dear members of the Religion of Peace conclude from the U.S. Army burning Bibles as though they were trash?” Might they (reasonably) conclude that the United States officially recognizes and applauds the supremacy of Islam over Christianity and other religions, that we have lost and that they have won? That will surely keep our troops safe; or something.
They of course very rarely draw conclusions reasonably, but that seems reasonable from their perspective, particularly when considered in the context of President Obama’s apology tours, statements about and pressures on Israel and the like.
brilliant comment
Not to mention how the US soldiers felt about burning the Bibles. To some it was sacrilegious.
I have to admit that I burned a Koran this past winter. Of course, it was only an English translation paperback that I got in the college bookstore back in the 60s, and it was falling apart, and though I only read bits and pieces of it over the years, I’m sure it was heavily sanitized… but it made a great fire starter, and I have room for a more interesting paperback in my shelves now, a murder mystery perhaps, or a science fiction adventure.
Christian’s and Jew’s don’t agree and never will give in to these evil pagon’s.
It is so frustrating that we have a first amendment to our constitution which guarantees free speech, yet political correctness is firmly rooted in the suppression of free speech. Likewise, the same amendment provides for freedom of religion, and as a consequence we cannot prevent the building of mosques in our country, nor can we prevent the immigration to our country based upon a religious test. Yet, you cannot bring a Bible into the Kingdom of Saud, there are no churches there, and the Koran requires death to all openly practicing Christians.
I am, by no means, in favor of setting aside the first amendment, but talk about fighting an enemy while having one hand tied behind your back!
How hard is it to understand that your free speech rights don’t extend beyond the borders of the nation you live in or that you don’t incite riots that get people killed to prove a point? This is something stubborn children do who cannot exercise the restraint they dislike others for.
So I guess the idea is that the more muslims get angry the more you do it – that’s real adult. If you are so nuts about the idea that your rights extend over the ocean then go over the ocean and burn a Koran and make that point instead of making others take the brunt of what is after all only a stupid stunt.
This is not a Rubik’s Cube. If our Constitution’s framer’s were here they’d see all the people burning Korans just cuz they were feeling their oats and their power of ‘freedom’ and say, “Now children – we musn’t abuse our privileges”.
Doing something in the course of one’s normal expression is one thing but sticking something in somebody’s face cuz it inflames them and saying, “Ha-ha, I’m doing this cuz I CAN do it and I have the RIGHT to do it.” smacks of the most immature type of expression and certainly not worth protecting or defending.
Mr. May,
There’s a term in Islam for your position: it’s called dhimmi.
Nyah-nyah! I burned a Koran and YOU CAN’T STOP ME!
Cuz I’m way over here so you’ll have to kill someone else that kind of looks like me way over there.
Hah! Take that musims!
Sorry about the deaths – academic necessity.
You see there are higher issues involved like my right to burn books as opposed to your right to breathe.
FIRE! Ha-ha. Just kidding.
Mr. May: Have you been threatened? Having a college flashback? Converted?
Usually you are in agreement with us that muslims/islamists are barbarians stuck in the mid 8th C. That our values and freedoms should not be subverted by sharia or islamic threat. That islamists are frontal-lobotomized droids relying on their basal reflexes to live. And that our rights extend to Americans regardless of who does not like them and where they live. Who gives a flying crap what they think, feel or believe. Our rights are our rights.
And if you don’t like it then go live with them. You have just made yourself my favorite target on this cite.
It is true that free speech does not extend beyond the borders of the nation one live in.
It is also true that some people can riot if they do not like what the people living in other countries are doing.
However people in both countries are adults so they are responsible for what they are doing.
The people who kill are responsible for killing, the people who riot are responsible for rioting. They are responsible, not someone who did something in far away country.
It is not that the more Muslims get angry the more you do it..
It is the more you give in or make concession the more concessions these others want.
But it seems you don’t see it.
Really? Maybe Jones will intercede for me with his burgeoning and eccentric negotiating whereby, rather than freeing hostages, he creates them and then has them killed.
You are so,so wrong Mr. May. Our constitution’s framers would not object to burning the enemy’s hate manual, especially when we have military power exponentially greater than theirs. Their idiotic riots should be punished and punished severely by our military. That they will understand.
You are unnecessarily complicating this issue. No amount of butt-kissing of barbarians by Americans will improve their opinion of us one bit. You must face reality Mr. May; and by that I mean REALITY not the contrived “reality” you seem to prefer. The REALITY is that no Muslim will ever give a damn what we say or do as long as we are infidels, and if America is to be respected as a great power it MUST act like one. That means standing up for OUR beliefs, not the enemy’s.
By ‘contrived’ I take that to mean that there is no such things as ransoms paid to kidnappers and if there were, you’d not only prefer a friend or relative be killed rather than pay because it’s ‘wrong’ to kidnap people but wouldn’t mind them being made into hostages in the first place over this issue.
And then of course killed.
Mr. May, I concede your superior education and writing skills, however,you appear to have very limited reasoning skills. You appear not to grasp that appeasing an enemy will never, never get that enemy to see things your way, especially an enemy who believes that your destruction is his God-given right. By a “contrived” version of reality I mean that it is utter nonsense to believe that any country which is dominated by Islam will act in a way that would seem rational by western standards. Contrived reality is the attempt by some “enlightened” people to apply western standards of conduct to, and expect corresponding outcomes from, people who have no comprehension of those standards nor any desire to. They have only contempt for our values and will continue to do so until we stand up for what we believe in.
oh yeah! because.. you see.. muslim never took hostages before! never killed anyone! it was just that evil Jones with his koran BBQ who started all!
Restraining oneself from holding sway over mock trials wherein books are castigated, finger-wagged and burnt hardly invokes Neville Chamberlain or makes me Lord Haw Haw.
Regardless of how Churchill felt about Hitler I hardly think goading him into bombing Rotterdam by daring him to do it would have been very Magna Carta-ish.
james if my freedom of speech rights do not extend beyond the boundaries of my country then why do the muslims beliefs in afghanistan extend to me inside my country?
Well said!
They don’t.
Now talk to the man behind the curtain.
James,
So what youre saying is, If I GET OFFENDED, over HERE when I see someone burn MY FLAG OVERSEAS…
I would be justified in killing a few brown people OVER HERE, because they looked like/and/or reminded me of the poeple OVER THERE that burned my flag?
It would be the FLAG BURNERS FAULT that I committed MURDER?
Nice logic you have there.
You must be a Liberal.
“but sticking something in somebody’s face cuz it inflames them and saying, “Ha-ha, I’m doing this cuz I CAN do it and I have the RIGHT to do it.”
Sounds like a crusafix in a jar of urine to me…
Were you denouncing that distateful act, and all the violence it casused?
No, because CHRISTIANS dont riot and kill over immature stupidness
You only defend the sensibilities of religions youre AFRAID OF…
Because you are a COWARD
A coward? Compared to who?
always thought f scott fitzgerald was a bit of a tool
General Petraeus has now truly earned the monicker “Betrayus”
If they weigh as much as a duck then they are made of wood.
Wood is burned. Such is the way of science
@ David W. Nicholas
Thanks for that comment. I’m always happy when this entrenched fuzzy blabbering gets some airing. Politely said it is Poppycock!
Are bibles any less bibles because they are in a language other than those fatwa-approved by every Imam? BTW, please cite a link for the bible language claim. I sure can’t find any corroboration.
Psychobabble opinions like yours are a major reason and policies like the one Roger exposes are the major reason Americans are being killed. Soldiers and civilians alike. If you have an enemy you fight them with all you got or you get out. But you don’t coddle and embolden them. They have to fear us, they will never love us. They read and follow the Koran and as you yourself admit, they follow it. And it tells them to hate us.
What Roger exposes here is a major reason why I am active in the Tea Party. Throw these clowns that support this stuff out of office.
I am an Orthodox Christian, fear not people of the world. We won’t kill anyone as a result of this, and we’ll just end up printing a bunch more. Issue resolved.
A ROSE IS A ROSE IS A KORAN
=============================
A very important question is this: Was the Koran that the Revenrand So and So burned written in English or Arabic?
This is a crucial question because according to fundamental Moslem “tradition”, only a Koran in Arabic is “authentic”. In any other language, it’s nearly invalid and only “tolerated” in so far as it is a “convenience” for infidels (that’s you and me).
Wonder if anyone knows.
It is HIGH TIME to arrange an atheist protest to burn all kinds of religious books – The Koran, Bible, Upanishads, the US flag, etc – because we deny any sacredness of these symbols and texts – we deny them any power because we deny all superstitions.
go ahead orson you are free to do so under our constitution and you will not be threatened or condemned by any religious group except muslims and you will not be condemned by our government except about burning the koran…so as long as you don’t burn a koran no one will even notice
In the real world, these remarkable, illiterate, ignorant, and superstitious muslims, don’t need the burning of the koran, as an excuse to terrorize and murder. Their belief , is the root cause of their own illiterate condition. One of the oldest reglions , known was taught for total control over the muslim masses, by a the few in control. Illiterate, ignorance, and superstition, is not an excuse, in the real world, until they grow up. They will continue to murder moreand more people, until the radical elements, are taken out. Making excuses for these barbaric terrorist, is not the answer.
“At the same time, however, it is OK, in the Obama regime, for the U.S. government to burn Bibles.”
Clarification:
I’m sure that would fit right in with Obama’s philosophy, but I believe the confiscation and burning actually took place while George Bush II was president.
Maybe so, but just as Obama has condemned the burning of the Koran why did he not condemn the burning of the bibles especially as “Bush did it”?
First, there’s no may about it – that’s when it happened.
Second, if Obama did criticize Bush for this conservatives would say Obama is trying to distract from his own record.
Third, while we’re on the subject of which administration actually did this – why didn’t all the conservatives here criticize Bush when it happened – oralone criticize Bush for it now?
It can’t be that you’re holding Obama to a different standard because you don’t like him, can it? Heavens forbid.
Since everyone is so excited about ‘rights’, what about my rights as a third party to not get my head bashed in while morons holds up books about which imaginary being behind the stars is better than another imaginary being behind the stars?
You seem to be forgetting that this is an idea enshrined in the concept of separation of church and state. What it really was was the separation of the playground from a place of business.
It is my dearest wish that Jones could have been in that bunker underground while people banged on the door until it caved in and to have him undergo the fear and terror as people probably begged for their lives only to lose them.
For Jones to absolve himself of this act as if his ‘rights’ protect him from the reality that occurred is nonsense. Every one who defends him is morally complicit in the deaths of those persons. They were real people and they really died. How much worse would Jones’ life had been if he had never burned that Koran? His ‘rights’ already existed and were safely in his pocket.
There are academic arguments and then there is a reality where other people do the dying for an abstract concept. There is a place to defend, even to the death, our abstract concepts but how brave is it to put others in harm’s way rather than oneself?
I know this: were I the brother of one of those dead I would hold Jones directly responsible for those deaths and laugh at the idea that he can do whatever he wants regardless of the consequences. Defending such an heinous act by saying people shouldn’t have been angry and waving common sense and the Constitution around when they knew full well that people WOULD get angry is the most childish and irresponsible way to express our freedoms.
Jones is a disgusting bigot and a hypocrite and he has a lot more in common with the muslims who committed murder than he does with the innocent dead. In what world is Jones hands as clean as the ones who died? That is the argument and it is as disgusting as Jones himself.
I guess I shouldn’t be surprised this comes from people who celebrate an event wherein their god exhorted a man to kill his own son just to prove an academic point. Extend this type of thinking out and it is plain to see many would have no problem with a priest being the President and oh, guess what, maybe an imam?
I guess when you look at it like that ones man’s nuthouse of an imam is just another man’s nuthouse of a priest, the kind of loving religious man who puts books on trial and invokes all the pleasures of the Spanish Inquisition with the blood to go along with it – not his blood of course – it’s never the blood of the religious leaders but the blood of hapless victims caught up in the madness where an imaginary being wants us to kill our sons one day and hold up a document that says ‘Thou shall not kill’ the next – unless of course its some version of an infidel not personally picked out by a magic wizard for special treatment, then it’s okay. It’s okay because if you were chosen because of being smart enough to believe in something you can’t show anyone else then you get protection.
Well one can always point to gravity and stars which I can actually feel and measure and see and say that’s god’s work. That’s like the Monty Python sketch where a hypnotist snaps his fingers at a brick and says he put it to sleep.
I respect the desire of people to practice religion – but keep it over there, in the corner, with other toys and don’t even think about invoking the very system of gov’t that includes you out of it because you are so dangerous and unhinged when it comes to policy as some kind of example of your ‘rights’.
Quit blaming the victim! Jones bares no responsibility whatsoever for those deaths! Place the blame where it belongs- on the murderers.
“Inciting to riot” is a crime for a reason.
If that was a liberal who shot his fool mouth off for attention and got some innocents killed, you know full well you’d be criticizing him for it. And what’s more, you’d be right.
According to your idiotic argument, if I now kill you (because you insulted my religion), it’s YOUR direct responsibility that I killed you.
You think that you sneering at imaginary beings behind the stars is any less disresptful than someone else burning a Koran?
Try standing on the streets of Mecca preaching that Allah is an imaginary being behind the stars, and see how that flies with the Muslims.
Dope.
And, I wouldn’t be talking about hypocrisy or bigotry, if I was you.
Why don’t you go to an L.A. gang neighborhood and burn a sign with their gang’s name on it? They SHOULDN’T kill you, they have no RIGHT to kill you.
Guess what, they WILL kill you. That’s the sole argument. It’s not based on a philosophy. Substitute someone else’s life for yours and you’re in the wrong on this one.
I don’t sneer at imaginary beings because they don’t exist – that’s the whole point. I don’t love them, wanna borrow money from them, have them teach me the ABC’s of life or burn incense in their name. I was sneering at the people who actually worship what is after all the equivalent of the Loch Ness Monster in a manner that involves other peoples deaths and me too. You wanna do it in private and leave me out of it? Fine, no problem, no sneering.
I don’t see much return on an investment in two sides referring to each other as satanic. Who’s wrong, what side should I pick? Oh my, all the choices to make.
“I don’t sneer at imaginary beings because they don’t exist…”
Yeah, it’s o.k. for YOU to deride other peoples religion, just not o.k. for Jones to do it.
I read you loud and clear.
That’s exactly what I was commenting on: YOUR hypocrisy.
I have put no lives at risk so I don’t see where the hypocrisy comes in.
Criticizing someone’s religion is a bit different than burning their holy book. Especially when you should know, if you’re above the emotional age of 8 let alone a pastor, that people’s emotions can go out of whack and some innocents might killed for it.
Jones is a fool and a jerk of the first order, and if he has one shred of conscience he will publicly apologize and beg his God for forgiveness for the suffering he has just enabled to happen. He walked out into dry fields, flung around gasoline and lit a match. Recklessness has consequences, and for consequences there should be accountability.
“I don’t see where the hypocrisy comes in.”
That much is obvious.
You say that you don’t go where there are gangs and threaten to do something to make these gangs angry because they will kill you.
And that is a clue to your reasoning.
So, why not simply say: “I don’t want people to burn Qu’ran because I am afraid that someone will kill me or somebody else. And because I am afraid I will try not to burn Qu’ran as to make them angry.”
Why so much words in your posts.
The burning Quran is heinous crime not because you really think it is (or may be you are the Muslims?) but because the people of whom you are afraid think it is.
However the question is: what will happen if something else make them angry and they threaten to kill or riot?
What will you do?
ok james if you ever speak another word i will go out into my neighborhood and start killing everyone i see and i am sure the dead’s families will blame you for the death of their loved ones…it will most definitely be your fault as i have given you fair warning that i will do this
More potential candidates for the new FBI Hostage Creating/Killing Team. It’s really quite overwhelming how you think there is an academic argument for killing people you don’t know when everyone knows you’d never make such an argument if your own friends or family’s lives were at stake in a hostage or kidnapping situation.
You’d pay the ransom rather than let your sense of right and wrong take precedent and you sure as hell wouldn’t put them in that situation in the first place by burning a Koran and letting them die to satisfy your sense of order.
I said before, this is not an academic argument but one where real lives are at stake over a publicity stunt. Gangs right here in the U.S. are wrong; go stand in a gang area at midnight and tell them so. Your first amendment rights will protect you. You can hang them in effigy, burn photos of them, do whatever you want. There is no such thing as violence, only academics.
If I went down to the barrio and made nasty comments about gangs, and then said gangs bashed my head in, the following questions arise…
- Who is at fault for inflicting pain and suffering?
- Who will get arrested for breaking a law? Me (assuming I’m still alive)?
- Who will get convicted in a court of law?
- Who will do jail time?
If I decided to go to the barrio by myself and make nasty comments, it might be stupid, but I would still be in the right. If instead I decided to go with 100 large friends all having CCW’s, then it would no longer be stupid, and it would STILL be right.
You are simply pandering to fear, not some noble principle. BTW, what is it with your references to hostages? You have yet to adequately explain that, and it is getting tiresome. Meanwhile, go re-read what the other commenters have said about real Islam, as opposed to your willfull ignorance and wishful thinking about it.
In the final analysis, we should not be in Afghanistan. We should have gone in for the punishing blow, and then left. Nation building and exporting democracy are leftist and neocon notions that have no place in reality, especially with respect to Moslems. There might have been some small chance if we had, a la MacArthur, dictated under the threat of overwhelming force just exactly what kind of secular society Afghans were going to have, but we did not do that.
We should keep Islam at arms length while we build our own energy sources of small nuclear reactors, natural gas, and shale oil. We should stop all immigrations of Moslems, and those that are already here should be forced to take a loyalty oath renouncing jihad and sharia, or else politely informed they must emigrate back to whatever snake pit society they came from.
Jones has courageously provided moral clarity, not just to uncover true Moslem attitudes around the world, but most importantly for separating out those in the West who really don’t have a clue about the foundations of liberty in their own society. That includes you. I suspect that, no matter what I or others may say, you will continue to paint false analogies, confuse ‘ought’ with ‘is’, and in general live in fearful leftist fantasyland. Good luck with all that.
You’d be stupid, right and dead. Thank you for encapsulating my argument.
“what about my rights as a third party to not get my head bashed in ”
How is it the First Parties problem, what the Second party does unlawfully to you, the third party?
Put it this way:
Dude couldnt get laid….
So he beats up the next chic that declines his phone number…
Does SHE then sue (blame) the first girl?
That dirty pig, its all HER fault, right?
After all, she violated “Girl number 3′s” right to be “safe” from DERANGED ASSHOLE NUMBER ONE.
How DARE she not accept responsibility?
Right?
NO, the argument is more like this: it’s during the 30 years war. I’m sitting smoking a pipe and eating hausenpfeiffer outside my barn when suddenly two raiding parties from two opposing religious army’s come and kill the wife, kids and my favorite goat and take away all my hay and set the house on fire just for fun.
My reaction: I think I’ll mosey over to America and write something, get a new wife, have some more kids. I’ll write about kings and their DIVINE right to come and kill my people.
I’ll cut these bastards right out of the gov’t. Ha, ha.
I am extremely outraged, as I am sure most Americans are, that Bibles were burnt by our government.
The U.S. military perpetrated a huge, hostile, EVIL attack against G-D’s Word, the Bible and against G-D Himself. It was also a very vicious attack on Judaism and Christianity.
Just exactly what are the real reasons the U.S. is fighting in Iraq, Afghanistan and now Libya? It certainly has NOTHING whatsoever to do with justice, freedom and human rights. The hate-filled act of burning precious Bibles is a very powerful proof that the war has nothing to do with those cherished values!
We should not be surprised when severe persecution of Jews and Christians begins in this country.
I regard the U.S. military burning Bibles as satanic. It is HATE for God and God’s Holy Laws contained in those precious Bibles.
The U.S. military went out of their way to make a statement to God, the whole world and the entire Muslim world that America’s government has absolutely no respect whatsoever for God and the Bible. What a frightening and terrible statement that is.
While you’re ranting, Ma’am, keep in mind that policies are not set by the U.S. military; they are set by the civil authority. That means the Commander-in-Chief, and/or Secretary of State and/or Secretary of Defense, whoever they may be at the time.
Furthermore, said policies in the present day are generally intended to placate those in our own country who fancy themselves as highly “enlightened” compared to the average person. And who judge their own degree of superiority by how much they look down upon said average person. And who, incidentally, are frightened to death of the Islamists, but won’t admit it. (By comparison, they affect to be terrified of Christians, who do not generally riot when offended.)
And when these very enlightened people decide on a policy, our men and women in uniform are required by their oath and the Constitution to obey whatever orders come down the chain of command to implement same. Even if they disagree with them. (Or just believe they are exceptionally stupid.)
If you want to get angry, fine. (Although I personally avoid it; as Sun-Tzu said, it clouds judgment.) But be sure your anger is directed at those truly responsible for the acts you regard as heinous. Which are those giving the orders in the name of “political correctness”.
cordially,
eon
It was an extremely shocking and shameless attack by those who gave the orders to BURN BIBLES – the Commander-in-Chief, Secretary of State, Secretary of Defense, plus others.
“Why it’s OK for the U.S. Govt. to Burn Bibles But Condemn Burning the Koran”
That’s an easy question, the reason why our cowardly government think it’s ok to burn the rock-of-all-ages (Holy Bible), is because christians (like myself who happends to be a non-churchgoer) don’t resort to violent behavior and act like a bunch of savages who are still living in the 7th-12th century, ie, the islamist. Now I’m against burning books in general, I don’t endorse burning korans, bibles, torahs, etc., but if you want to burn a koran, go ahead, your entitled to your own 1st amendment rights, even though I disagree with the decision. If someone wants to burn the american flag, I get angry and pissed off about it, I don’t resort to threating people with violence, because I’m a sane person, samething can be said for the bible.
Now for the islamist, let me tell you islamist something, this is the 21st century and the year 2011, get with the program, if someone wants to burn some pages from the koran (some folks call the koran a book of hatred and islam a cult) you don’t have to resort to violent behavior and act like a bunch of spoiled children giving a tantrum to their parents! Just ignore it and move on in your damn miserable lives you friggin islamist. And this is why I don’t think theirs ever going to be legitimate democracy in middle eastern countries when you have throwbacks who are extremely intolerant to non-muslims, women, children, gays, bi-sexuals, etc.
“A nation is defined by it’s borders, language & culture!”
Pastor Jones should immediately announce that he will burn a Koran for every American soldier that is killed in Afghanistan. It’s not as crazy a suggestion as you might think at first. There is no downside to this. If it would cause the Taliban or other enemy in Afghanistan to pause before killing an American soldier because it might cause the destruction of a Koran then we will have gained the use of a very effective tool to separate the Taliban from their own use of the Koran as a political/military weapon against peace and progress.
Let’s put Jones in charge of hostage crisis’ since he has the knack of creating them out of thin air. The next American who’s kidnapped by Somali’s or in the Philipines or Columbia can have Jones as his negotiator. Instead of paying a ransom he can send videotapes of him burning the kidnappers in effigy.
People are uncivilized – get used to it. You don’t piss off kidnappers with hostages just because it’s wrong to kidnap people. Jones is an irresponsible idiot playing with peoples lives. There’s a time and a place and a way to tell people to go to hell and using the excuse that you have the perfect right to isn’t smart with lives on the line.
yes i now get your point james and i am amending my ways…heretofore if anyone marches against gay marriage, women’s right to choose, my right to bear arms or for illegals then i will get my “gang” and we will kill everyone in sight. therefore no longer will anyone be able to engage in their constitutional right to protest against these issues. just because you have the right to do something doesn’t mean you should do it especially if it will incite me and my gang to violence you must remain silent…it is your civic duty…i have spoken and you WILL OBEY or there will be death and destruction…got it!!!! oh and by the way my death threat if you speak again still holds so i will be keeping up with pj media to make sure you remain silent. your constitutional right of free speech no longer exist because you incite me to violence by your mere existence and my violent behavior over rides your rights
Another potential hostage negotiator heard from. Between that and creating hostages out of thin air you would busy and deadly.
But Mr. May
You are not talking about negotiating with hostage takers. You are talking about negotiating with killers and rioters.
However if you want to call killers and rioters hostage takers, it is your right, isn’t it? In fact, you may even call them “freedom fighters”.
But I would call them what they are – “killers and rioters”. And although one does negotiate with hostage takers, one doesn’t negotiate with blackmailers, killers and rioters. And if one does, in the long run the consequences for one’s country, one’s friends, one’s family and particularly one’s children are quite dire.
It is the same principle and no one has the right to spend lives. You admit as much because a hostage taker is a blackmailer. We negotiate with killers and rioters too. It happens all the time.
The difference is that Jones created hostages for an academic gesture which would not have changed his life one bit had he not done it.
Jones not only changed lives he created the circumstances which ended them.
Jones rights were already well protected and it was an empty gesture. What we need are not overarching philosophies that match up academia with real lives but ad hoc thinking on an individual basis.
No one ever had the chance to negotiate for the lives Jones put at risk by throwing fire onto a very bad situation in a bad place. He is the mastermind of what occurred. How he can be absolved as if he did nothing is beyond me.
Jones cannot be prosecuted nor should he but he deserves to go straight to the hell he believes in and I hope the dead people whose lives he helped end give him the finger on their way up and say, “Thanks a lot, pal.”
Jones or the Media? I burned a koran yesterday and nobody noticed
God did. I don’t know which one.
You’ll have to consult an oracle or use whatever communications fad is used today for talking to Jfididdddddcram in the X dimension.
Probably gonna have to buy some candles or hold your breath til you get dizzy or whatever else can disconnect you from reality and connect you to flying unicorn beings from Jupiter.
Neither Bush, nor Petraeus bears any responsibility for this. The report was dated May 2009, but Petraeus was at CENTCOM at the time. This was McCrystal’s call.
Mr. Kimball,
This article sounds an awfully lot like one I wrote for PJM, May 29, 2010, entitled “The Secular Crusader”:
The most potent example of the convergence of such de facto pro-Muslim tendencies in the government with the secular intelligentsia’s intolerance of Christianity took place almost exactly one year ago, in Afghanistan, when “military personnel threw away, and ultimately burned, confiscated Bibles” printed in Dari and Pashto.
It seems that a church in the U.S. had sent the Bibles to a service member at Bagram Air Base, although it was unclear whether anyone there had actually requested the Bibles. While it was reasonable of the military to confiscate the Bibles so as not to offend our Afghan hosts, how was it at all reasonable, or sensitive to Christians, to burn the Bibles?
Adding insult to injury, Lt. Col. Mark Wright stated that “troops at posts in war zones are required to burn their trash.”
I wonder how Mikey Weinstein and his organization would react if the military had deemed as trash, then ordered the burning of, Bhagavad Gitas (Hindu Scriptures) or — Allah forbid! — Qur’ans?
Of course, even under the intolerant Bush administration an edict had come down from U.S. Southern Command mandating the utmost respect and care when handing the “Koran” — even, nay especially, for soldiers who are not Muslim. Among other instructions, they included the following:
Handling.
(1)Clean gloves will be put on in full view of the detainees prior to handling.
(2)Two hands will be used at all times when handling the Koran in manner signaling respect and reverence. Care should be used so that the right hand is the primary one used to manipulate any part of the Koran due to the cultural association with the left hand. Handle the Koran as if it were a fragile piece of delicate art.
(3) Ensure that the Koran is not placed in offensive areas such as the floor, near the toilet or sink, near the feet, or dirty/wet areas.
There you have it: our military burns Bibles, yet orders that the Qur’an be not just handled, literally, with kid gloves, but revered!
This is from a CNN report in 2009 [so consider the source]: “Military officers considered sending the Bibles back to the church [that sent them to Afghanistan], he said, but they worried the church would turn around and send them to another organization in Afghanistan — giving the impression that they had been distributed by the U.S. government.”
The military says that it was worried about the impression the Bibles would make on the local Muslims, so they burned them. But they did not know that the US organization would in fact re-send the Bibles. Plus, the military had no control over what impression the Bibles would make if they were resent to another organization in Afghanistan.
The military did not want the local Muslims to believe that it was proselytizing for Christians. Is this the way to run a war?
Actually, yes it is a way to run a war. If you want our men and women to be safe as possible over there and if you EVER want to the US leave, you respect local customs as much as possible.
Mr. (?) Tweed,
Are you implicitly criticizing the military for burning Bibles, for for somehow being inept for having allowed them to get to Afghanistan in the first place?
I agree that it’s a problem for the US military to be seen as invading any country and then allowing Christian missionaries ingress. However, the way the military handled this, it certainly gave the impression that it was favoring the religion of Islam over the religion of the vast majority of its own people (80% of Americans are Christian). When you couple this with 1) the accounts of the US military and State Department 1) building mosques and madrasas in Iraq, Afghanistan and also Islamic Africa (such as Gambia), and 2) the disproportion in anger directed by our top leadership at Qur’an burnings and that levied at Islamic mobs killing Christians in places like Iraq, Nigeria, Pakistan and India, one is hard pressed not to conclude that in the Obama administration burning a Muslim book is more important thant burning a live Christian.
WEeseem to agree.
Well, when it seems that the military is being run by lawyers, then yes there will be the application of “inept” to describe their behaviour.
Seems that the military lost direction some time ago when they boarded the politically correct bus of multiculti diversity. Vide Fort Hood.
More than the burning of the Holy Bibles, I am concerned about *why* they were burned, and the abandonment of US Constitutional principles and law that lead to the burning.
They were burned to prevent Christians from exercising the Great Commission, the single commandment Christ gave after His resurrection and the last thing He said to His disciples before He ascended into Heaven: “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:” (Matthew 28:19)
This is a fundamental tenet of Christianity and cannot be removed from our faith. It disturbs me terribly that our own government – the nation founded on the need for freedom to practice one’s faith openly and preach it publicly and worship openly – has by this ruling effectively outlawed freedom of religion for our military, and abandoned the very principles of liberty that we went there to defend. I wrote further about it here.
This is not a Christian issue, nor is it a religious issue – it is a question of whether our government is willing to maintain constancy with the secular principles underpinning our system of government.
Our so-called government is lawless. It is a government of men, not of laws, and certainly no longer of the Constitution. This is unConstitutional in that it ostensibly sets up one religion Islam over all others. But in the larger scheme of things, it is just one more heinous act in a long series of heinous acts by those in power, who thumb their nose at American traditions, American heritage, and ultimately the American people. I, personally, am numbed by this unceasing onslaught. Why do we as Americans keep on rolling over for this, day after day, week after week, year after year? Why?
While I can somewhat understand the sensitivity toward muslims in the middle east while we fight them in Afghanistan and Iraq, to try to minimize unnecessary battle deaths, these conflicts are fatally flawed because there is absolutely no stated or unstated goal of pacifying or destroying islam as the violent origin of evil that it is. We are spinning wheels at this point, and, after a decade of this ambiguous and ill-defined, so-called war on terror, we have the entire muslim world merely licking its chops with the apparent self-immolation of western civilization due to leftism and/or political correctness. We do somersaults trying to avoid the war with islam that is upon us whether we want it or not. We deny it even exists even with daily evidence to the contrary. Worse yet, the COIN approach of Petraeus may work with a patient, resolute country, which we clearly are not, but hasn’t a snowball’s chance in hell when trying to apply it to islam, which is fundamentally incompatible with freedom and liberty. We are filling graves for NOTHING if we do not fundamentally change or destroy islam in this existential fight. And that ain’t happening in any corner of the world. World War 2 was about the last time we so vanquished countries and the cancerous ideologies of their governments and people that it actually solved those problems. Culturally, this current fight is more complex, but islam must fundamentally change or we’re merely spinning wheels. And under our current, clueless “leadership,” we can forget any real fruitful progress in this 3rd World War in which we find ourselves.
To Mr. Kimball:
“The” Koran? as opposed to “Bibles”?
You answer the title question yourself by the elevation of one over the other.
That would be “a” Koran that is handled such and so.
It’s still pathetic. They could have sent them back with a very, very clear reason as to why not to have them shipped there. They then could have been given out here in America. Our rights are stronger here versus a country full of inbreed crazies such as any muslim country. I make no apologies for my comments because they’re true.
>>>>>So…there are 700 million of them, or something, and you wish to treat them with contempt. What sort of end game to our war with radical Islam do you see, if we treat the *whole* religion with contempt?
The same sort of end game England had with India. General Napier was, as is well known, a ruler of an Indian province in the 1860s. He was approached by village elders — you know, those moderate types, not at all the kind that was likely to go ahead and shoot British soldiers — with a request to practice one of their colorful multicultural festivals: burning a widow on her husband’s funeral pyre.
Napier’s reply?
“You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; [then] beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours.”
Today he would no doubt have been fired, under the view that treating moderate village elders like that is grossly insulting to Hinduism, for daring to suggest it is inferior to Christianity in its treatment of widows.
I think it is important to note that the Bibles were burned during the Bush Administration.
But the question remains why those who so vociferously denounced the burning of the Koran had nothing to say at the time of the bible burning.
These hypocrites demand respect for another culture but are quite content to see the local culture trod on underfoot.
At least two other questions remain: 1) Why did Roger Kimball write “At the same time, however, it is OK, in the Obama regime, for the U.S. government to burn Bibles” when it was the previous administration? and 2) why–knowing that Kimball either failed to comprehend and wrote what he assumed OR wrote a an outright lie–would anyone ever again consider him a credible source of fact or opinion?
“These hypocrites demand respect for another culture but are quite content to see the local culture trod on underfoot.”
Yeah, next thing you know those hypocrites will suggest we turn the other cheek to Muslims who transgress against us! How un-biblical of them.
Since all rational thought seems to leave the current occupant of The White House where Islam is concerned let me make it crystal clear – there are only two methods by which radical Islam can be defeated.
The first is an all out war resulting in the unconditional surrender of the Islamic states and the imposition upon them of a new educational system with humanistic values .
The second method is through a policy of containment. Isolating the residents of the Islamic nations, forbidding them access to the free societies, until the Islamic world accepts religious freedom as an essential societal element within its own borders.
Containment would have worked if the USA and the free world had supported Jewish rights to The Land of Israel based upon Bible Law. The Islamic countries oppose the imposition of man-made and foreign regulations upon them. However they are willing accept the restrictions imposed upon them in the name of The Almighty.
The failure to support Israel leads directly to the failure to maintain Bethlehem which leads to a mosque at the World Trade Center.
I am not surprised that Bibles are being burned. They sure as heck are not being read.
Founder of Islam, Mohammad, was a huge slave trader who murdered/beheaded hundreds of Jews because of the Jews great love for, and intense loyalty to God-our Creator. The Jews refused to follow another god and the new religion of Mohammad. The Jews’ wives and children were seized as slaves. Mohammad is regarded as the perfect man and role model by Muslims who follow their religion. According to Islamic law, non-Muslims may be owned as property by Muslims.
1. Clean gloves will be put on in full view of the detainees prior to handling.
2. Two hands will be used at all times when handling the Koran in manner signaling respect and reverence.
Because of what the Koran contains, the instructions given by our government to handle the Koran with great respect and reverence is frightening. Jihad is an obligation in the Koran. These instructions reveal that our government APPROVES of all of the teachings of hate, atrocities and murder of non-Muslims in the Koran and AGREES with them! Jihad is an obligation in the Koran.
The U.S. government is encouraging the Islamic conquest of free peoples! The Koran teaches that all nations and peoples must be conquered by Muslims and subdued under Islamic sharia law where defenseless non-Muslims have NO human rights. In many Muslim countries, non-Muslims live in daily fear.
God help America and the Free World!
Muslim: The Muslim people are the reincarnated ignorant uneducated spirits from the ancient continent of Mu. The reincarnated slim of Mu, hence the name Mu slim.
Turkey’s Prime Minister Erdogan on “moderate Islam”: ‘These descriptions are very ugly, it is offensive and an insult to our religion. There is no moderate Islam.” Milliyet, Turkey, August 21, 2007.
Turkey’s Prime Minister, Erdogan, publicly read an Islamic poem: “The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and Muslims our soldiers…”
The president who now resides in the White Mosque slipped up and revealed his religion. Mainstream media immediately covered up for him:
Obama: “My Muslim Faith”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKGdkqfBICw
In the Judeo-Christian nation that is America, President Obama was unable to hide his rabid hate for G-D, the Bible, Judaism and Christianity:
Obama Mocks & Attacks Jesus Christ And The Bible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hi-V_ilJu0w&NR=1
Did you read your own link? The Bibles were burned during the Bush administration.
Ah yes, it may have happened during the Bush administration, but Obama and his evil Islamo-Commie cohorts have developed a time machine which allows them to go back in time and discredit his glorious humble brush-clearing Christian predecessor.
Oh and Cynic, the premise of Mr. Kimball’s op-ed is that “it’s OK in the Obama regime for the US government to burn Bibles”. That’s a quote. If you’d like to decry the Bush Defense Department, well, my brother, get in line.
The quote by F. Scott Fitzgerald is actually derived from from Aristotle’s quote that said it is the mark of intelligence to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
The first rule of war is to know your enemy. Americans are not good at this; we think the other guy is just like us, but wears different looking clothes. Knowingly, or unknowingly, we are now in a war of differing cultures, modern secular America versus a primitive form of Islam. Both cultures have had bloody internal war in confronting their own religious – secular conflicts. It is important to note that the struggle deeply violates the central tenets of each religion, but is the result of earthly power struggles. Turkey is a current example of the struggle in Islam; our slaughter of our native American culture is an example of our historical resolution to troublesome religious tenets.
Koran burning, bible burning, flag burning, priest- altar boy rape, gay marriage, female genital mutilation, all deeply offends some segment of society. The rebukes are almost always by people who wish to confront, with no risk to themselves. The result is a never ending cycle of hatred, and retribution, with little curative results. The problem has become infinitely worse with Iran’s policies toward Israel and America, coupled with the possibility that Iran will/ has possess(ed) a nuclear bomb. If the world is to be spared another religious genocide, peaceful people within Islam must confront the violent elements in their society, i.e beheading someone you disagree with. And Westerners must comprehend those we attempt to conquer.
Muslims are natural born agitators/extremists/trouble makers/anti-American!
Why are Americans so stupid ?, to not see that B. Hussein is not a Muslim himself so fools vote this imposter into the office and now wonder why America is being dismantled while you sleep. Why so many Mosques being built across this Nation; why does a city in Michigan allow ‘call to prayer’ yet this Government challenges Nativity scenes. And Lindsey Graham (the guy with a womans name) is acting like a woman; pick a side Lindsey and stick to it. America, the ‘sell out group’ to the highest bidder with the lowest common denominator. Bring us your Illegals, your poor, your bums, your religous fanatics and tax all Americans. Keep American ‘idiot’ (Idol) going, offer more cable TV channels to pacify the public, threaten the citizens with more laws of silence and ‘keep on truckin’ until we are the aftermath of New Orleans from Katrina. We’re already there. ‘Ariba’, me speak no English, me have lawyer, me have rights, me sue you..viva La Raza
“My comment is awaiting moderation” ?…guess this only applies to Americans who speak the truth, but if I was here Illegally I’d have a lawyer to represent, a protest parade with news coverage, a sanctuary city with all the trappings of a good stay, (even the key to the city) rules and laws changed to fit my language or my inability to learn English. And I wouldn’t be ‘awaiting moderation’ if I was Muslim for my shouts of discrimination would be heard with the loudspeaker of ‘call to prayer’ megaphone upheld by the annointed one who’s still looking for that birth certificate. Remember, this is the transparency you all heard about. ‘Hope and change’ was that he ‘hopes’ you go along with his ‘change’ to open borders, Sharia Law, funding overseas revolutions and radical groups, propping up China, keeping Bill ‘the bomber’ Ayres safe, allowing oil prices to soar so you buy a cheap and useless electric Gov’t car, and feel good about your smug self sipping that Latte. But I will be awaiting moderation in the meantime.
Nice of the author to provide a link, but too bad that it contradicts his whole narrative. Bibles were not sent to “U.S. soldiers.” They were sent to one soldier, by his home church. They were in Afghan languages, and so it is unlikely that they were for any use but proselytizing, which U.S troops are forbidden to engage in. This policy was instituted by the Bush administration, and this incident took place during his administration, as well. I kinda think this should have been at least mentioned in the article, given the gratuitous Obama references. It’s really hard to read this and not think the author was trying to make us think this happened under President Obama’s watch. How else can you interpret the sentence, “…it is OK, in the Obama regime, for the U.S. government to burn Bibles.” I can’t see this as anything other than a deliberate attempt to mislead the reader.
And just out of curiosity, do you think the President actually shouldn’t fight against religious stereotyping and bigotry?
I generally support the right of people to proselytize, but I am conflicted when it comes to soldiers in a combat zone where such actions could easily be interpreted as representing official U.S. policy. Indeed, it would be surprising if it weren’t. So…I’m on the fence here about the policy itself.
Personally, I think they were wrong to burn the Bibles; they should have simply been returned to the donators, but again, this was done during the Bush administration, several years ago. I’m having a hard time seeing its relevance now, except as a way to demonize the current president.
As for the “Reverend” Jones, I think, basically, that he is a ignorant jerk looking for his 15 minutes of fame, but I support the right of anyone, anywhere to mock anyone and anything, including those beliefs which others hold most holy. This does not exempt him from criticism, or even mockery, but the suggestion that there should be any legal action taken against him is abhorrent. I point out, though, that these suggestions came from both sides of the aisle.
No! Say it isn’t so! You mean the FACTS don’t back this article at all?!?. Oh, woe upon us all when even FACTS contradict our most precious beliefs!
I guess Colbert was right…darn.
“1.Clean gloves will be put on in full view of the detainees prior to handling.”
That’s because, according to the Islamo-trash, infidels are too dirty to even TOUCH the Koran (which is the accumulated wit and wisdom of an Arab brigand, who specialized in having sex with little girls, when he wasn’t engaged in enslaving or murdering people).
And, like the good dhimmis we are, we observe that rule, because we wouldn’t want to offend the Muslim Al Qaida terrorist scum held in Gitmo.
What we should have told them was: sorry, we don’t provide religious materials to scum who belong to groups that kidnap and murder Americans, so no Korans for you today or any day, and we should have made it an official policy that any captured terrorists or guerrillas would be denied any contact with their religion…up to including the day we hung them, which should have happened long ago.
That ought to be our policy for anyone who associates with the quasi-human Muslim swine who kidnapped little American girls, and then murdered them in cold blood by flying them into the sides of buildings.
And, if that policy offends the rest of the Muslims, that’s just too damned bad.
Wow, and to think there are still people in the world who think we’re on anti-Muslim crusade in the Middle East, instead of selflessly promoting democracy and freedom. I can’t imagine where they get such an idea.
“Wow, and to think there are still people in the world who think we’re on anti-Muslim crusade…”
Kinda comes with the territory when the guys you’re fighting against are about 100% Muslim, AND they’re fighting in the name of Islam.
Wouldn’t make much sense to be engaged in an anti-Taoist crusade under the circumstances.
Dave,
dont know where you get your information, but I would recheck it again, knowing quite a few muslims, and also having lived ina number of Muslim countries, i have never hear this glove nonsense.
As for the rest of your ditribe, I’d lay of the meds, pal.
“Etiquettes of Reading and Handling the Qur’an al-Kareem”
“Treat the Qur’an with utmost respect, let no filth come into contact with it, or a non-Muslim touch it.”
http://www.livingislam.org/qur.html#er
Typical Muslim drivel.
And, when I need medical advice from the brain dead, you’ll be the first person I call…pal.
Why is Roger Kimball blaming the “Obama regime” for a policy decision that occurred during the Bush administration?
Did the evil Kenyan Muslim socialist invent a time machine? It would be irresponsible not to speculate!
Well it is really surprising that the current Commander in Chief did not apologize for the Bible burning, since he has apologized for just about everything else that America has done, real or imaginary!
Pray tell, for what imaginary acts has President Obama apologised?
If they aren’t tolerant of other views, then there’s really no point in being there, because freedom and progress relies upon tolerance and a willingness to adapt.
So either way, a US policy is wrong: A) it’s wrong for the US military to burn bibles and ban casual proselytizing, or B) Afghans can’t tolerate other views and are therefore incapable of moral and political improvement, and we should’t be wasting our time, money, and the lives of our troops.
Dear Roger Kimball,
Thanks for providing the link to the story about the bible burnings that happened during the Bush administration. I know realize what you wrote was not intended to be a factual statement.
XOXO
Seth
Our biggest concern is not losing our freedom and that America and Western civilization survives with its values of justice, freedom and human rights. The political/religious system of Islam does not believe in these values. As non-Muslims, we and our values are despised and hated. To the alarm of many, the government, whether Democrat or Republican, constantly chooses to honor totalitarian Islam.
You mean none of the first fifty people who commented on this blog post took the time to read the story and learn that this “Bible-burning” event by the US military took place during the BUSH ADMINISTRATION??
I guess I shouldn’t be surprised. Anyway, it’s Obama’s fault, no matter when it happened. Good job, fellow conservatives.
“You mean none of the first fifty people who commented on this blog post took the time to read the story and learn that this “Bible-burning” event by the US military took place during the BUSH ADMINISTRATION??”
See post #25 (hint: that’s less than 50).
My advice: First read, then spew.
Liberals – like muslims – have absolutely no concept of cause-and-effect.
Islam has officially declared war against all non-muslims, 1,400 years ago, in the Qur’an.
(Liberals please note: this was long before the founding of America)!
The Qur’an declares that all muslims are so superior to all non-muslims (whom allah hates) that the muslims are not only advised to but are actually commanded by ‘god’ to rob, enslave, rape & KILL all the non-muslims for the “crime” of not being muslims!
After that, anything we do to them or their religion is ‘expected’ by them anyway (since the Qur’an calls us ‘perverse & corrupt’ liars, worse than demons, etc)!
Were I still a Soldier stationed in the ME, I’d be having a Qur’anic Bar-B-Q!
David W Nicholas – grow a pair!
Memo for: Roger Kimball
Re: How the facts change things “not one whit” when it comes to Obama bashing
Seriously? Wow. There is denial, and then there is SERIOUS DENIAL.
It actually hurts my head a little when I hear arguments like some I’ve seen above. Why twist ourselves up into knots over this. It is actually quite simple. Let me outline it for you.
1. Muslims are not all ignorant, but some are very, like in Afghanistan. However, they are not unaware of the devotion to religion and respect it. Our burning of our holy word must fly in the face of their concept of sacrilege. Think through this a little. If we are so “Respectful” of their religion, but are willing to abuse our own, what does that say about our commitment to anything, in their eyes? Seriously.
2. Bin Laden explained Arabs (and all surrounding cultures) clearly to us. We just didn’t want to listen because as Westerners we tend to imprint on others our way of thinking. He said “Arabs follow the strong horse.” To them, survival by hanging out with the big dog on the street is the best course. They’ve had thousands of years of oppression and violence to teach them the rules. In 2006 we didn’t win their hearts over, they just realized we weren’t leaving and we were going to stay and kill bad guys until we ran out of ammo. Right after that, many switched to our side. Simple.
3. The sole reason why Muslims get so many breaks in the West and Christians don’t is this- Christians don’t murder people at the drop of a hat. If you had Christians killing directors in the streets of Europe, you would suddenly see a whole new level of respect. If you saw Christians beheading others simply to make a political point, you’d see a whole new level of respect. If you saw Christians blowing up entire marketplaces or buildings or mosques you would see a whole new level of respect. If a news person or a politician who spoke out against Christianity suddenly received the Christian version of a fatwa calling for their deaths, you’d see a whole new level of respect shown.
We need to quit beating around the bush here, Islam gets as far as it does because most in the West are afraid of it. As for offending Muslims in the mountains of Afghanistan, it is a Western concept that they are offended. We give far to much credit to them. They don’t care. What they care about is starting a fire in a mountain pass and then having a Hellfire suddenly run up their keister shortly thereafter.
Jeezz…
LOL. This was in 2008, under Bush.
First islam is not a religion but it is a form of totalitarian government. Our politicians are the ones selling out America by putting our military in harms way and tying their hands. Politicians say it is okay to burn our flag oh but do not touch the koran. What a bunch of PC loving assh-les we have in Washington. We put our military in muslem countries to free them, but do not bring out a Bible or Torah, because the peace loving islamist will cut your head off!
And who exactly are these politicians who say it’s OK to burn the flag? Please be specific, and provide documentation.
The supreme court says it is our constitutional right to burn the flag, I do not see any politician stopping it so you pick one!
How many Bibles did the US military burn?
I want to burn that many Korans! But I won’t if the officers involved face a court martial.
So, the news that you had the dates wrong and that this bible burning happened during the Bush Presidency changes “not one whit” your article, which read:
“At the same time, however, it is OK, in the Obama regime for the U.S. government to burn Bibles. Yes, that’s right. Bibles were sent to…”
Quite right, really, why should facts that directly contradict your article have any bearing on it whatsoever, even when you’re made aware of them?
Those liberals and their facts, I wish they’d just stop with that stuff.
I have read the Quran, I have visited a site where it lists every mosque within the U.S., I have watched videos which show their training camps complete with guns, knives and other weapons, and I have learned many things especially where ‘they’ are actually holding signs stating that they are going to destroy Israel and America. They believe that Israel is the Little Satan, America the Big Satan and Europe the Middle Satan. Some of their signs have said that they are going to Dominate the entire world which means that Islam is going to be King of the world. All whom do not obey them, Allah which is the army of Islam, and worship their way will be killed, so says their book and their actions portray the same. Just read their book and you will see that anyone who is not of their blood lines, their names or of them, in some way, whether or not you join you will eventually be killed because they know that the way in which a person is raised which is not Islamic will be where their heart and mind return one day. I am a Christian and will never worship what is purely diabolical in nature. They burned our book because they did not want to upset the Muslims because then our military would have had something worse on their hands. Instead of burning them they could have just held onto them until a later date or made sure that the size of the books sent to the men and women were small and had different covers on them. They could instructed them not to read the books until they were lying down to rest, relax or sleep so as not to offend or upset anyone. It is too bad that the books were destroyed because with them there is always the possiblity that they would hear prophecy and therefore know the truth.
“I apologize for that error”
No problem, as long as it gets corrected.
The article just made it sound like the particular incident being described was somehow Obama’s fault, and much as I detest the alleged POTUS, that’s not really fair.
Anyone can make a mistake. I even made one once (hard as that is to believe). Sure, it was back in the 6th century, but still…
The reason it’s OK to burn Bibles while the Koran must be handled as if it were a “fragile piece of delicate art” is that Muslims and their sacred scriptures have priority over Jews and Christians and their scriptures.
Actually, the reason why it’s OK to burn Bibles is because they were printed in Pashto and Dari, were sent over there to evangelize Afghanis and because it is against military regulations to evangelize the natives.
You will find, much to your shock and horror, that US troops carry bibles around in Afghanistan without problem – provided they don’t use them to try and convert Aghanis.
Military regulations against evangelization. Nothing to do with Obama or Bush – although it’s incredibly funny to see your “so it was Bush, doesn’t mean that I can’t bash Obama” defence.
Solution- get some evangelists out there who don’t work for the military and have them pass out the Bibles.
Look, even if there weren’t practical reasons to burn the Bibles, imagining that our defense bureaucracy was doing so as part of some Christianity-suppressing conspiracy is about as loony as paranoia gets. Really, the military wants to lose Christian support? Give me a break.
It is an American’s duty to offend the muslims any way possible! Nothing but a buch of bomb happy, flying airplanes into building, child raping terrorists! Burn the koran! Burn the mosques, run the muslim out of the white house! Death to all of islam!
BURN as many korans as possible, muslims and obama don’t deserve our sympathy. Death to islam!
This story combined with the public statement by David Petraeus that burning of a the Koran, by a Florida preacher, was wrong, has made me lose all respect I once had for the Army in which I once served.
Response to James May:
Mr. May, I realize I’m late to this discussion but the point most of your critics are making and that you do not acknowledge is that the bible burning incident offered a perfect opportunity for General Petraeus to publically admonish all those “religion of peace” adherents who reacted with murder – not to kow-tow to their “sensitivities”. You see, if not for the koran burning it would be a cartoon, or a poster, or a book (see Koranic Verses) or some other trivial matter to incite these monsters. And monsters they are.
It’s absolutely amazing to me how so many have no problem whatsoever making an immediate and direct connection to free speech and the Constitution and appeasement and other rubbish that is neither here nor there. Burning a Koran is not “The Federalist Papers”.
Petraeus isn’t running a workshop on the Constitution – he is dealing with hard reality and life and death. One doesn’t mix rhetorical arguments and blood.
A cartoon, a poster or a book like “The Satanic Verses” is an entirely different matter. One cannot cut off artistic and cultural expression throughout the West to kowtow to morons; no one is suggesting Jones should have been cut off. I am suggesting that there was nothing at stake for him but lives were at stake. His career doesn’t consist of holding mock trials for books and pronouncing a death sentence. His freedom of expression was already protected. He knew people might die and they did. He meant to inflame and he did. He could have restrained himself and America wouldn’t be one whit different nor our freedoms any the less. The sole and only thing he accomplished was to get people murdered. He yelled fire in a theater for what amounted to a joke, a stunt.
The reason I mention hostages is because we DO kowtow to madmen and killers all the time in order to secure their safe release. The reason we do it is because we don’t attach the specific act to every goddam rhetorical argument in the world from appeasing Hitler to habeus corpus – we just save the lives when we can.
It is making Jones act some kind of overarching protection of the United States of America that is the idiocy here. There is a time and a place for standing ones ground on such issues – we have done so and we have won. There was nothing at stake other than Jones desire for attention and his own religious fanaticism.
Ahem. To repeat:
THIS WAS IN MAY 2008. GEORGE W. BUSH WAS PRESIDENT.
And Roger Kimball was then, and still is, an idiot.
The “Prophet’s” original idea for his religion failed so he turned to violence to spread Islam. Our Lord conquered sin and death by giving up His life for sinners not forcing our conversions. Now which holy book is hateful and which is really trash. I choose the Gospel. Jesus is Lord of all or not Lord at all.
I beg of you,
Choose life
The Muslims are just as offended by the presents of unbelievers and the Koran is a rule book preaching that all who don’t follow its words deserve death. We do not understand that the only victory against terrorists can only be done by defeating the teachings of the Koran. Our liberal society somehow justifies a book that says this war is not a war on their god. We call terrorists radical but they are not. They are true believers that follow the words in the Koran. They win half the battle when we burn our own bibles and they are gathering more assistance from the political correct stupidly of liberal Americans. They are masters of deceit and the Koran encourages deceitfulness. They are not loyal to a country or a government but only to God. Their God!
Obviously the moslems are sensitive about issues regarding the handling of the koran, so what I propose is that we defile the koran in some manner on a daily basis. Eventually they will get used to their ‘holy’ book being dissed like our Bible is dissed.
I will tell you why they burn the bible it has been spoken of in the holy scripture we will suffer for his sake that is (Jesus Christ) God manifested in human flesh. no matter what we think Man was appointed once to die and then the judgement. so let this sick society destroy itself. we have removed the God of the Hebrews,Christians and Muslems all decendants of Abraham from America. We are headed the way of the dinosaurs. this nation can not recover. Have you ever read the book animal farm. God is first removed then the family society then this nation. its already happening here. Why do they burn bible because man does not want to be responeable for their actions and the HOLY BIBLE is a Grim reminder of their rebelling agianst God! not to Lets not forget rowe Vs Wade since 1973 more abortions has been performed in this world than all those jews during the holocaust what a sad comentary about Us. as a nation and a people and the Human Race so don’t be schocked if we hear stories of burning bibles mass murder and the like Gay Marrage How long do we think the God of our Fathers will let this behavior go on.
This has become one of the weirdest discussions I’ve had on here in recent memory, though it in some ways equals in goofiness the discussion of the Fogel family’s murders, where I got eviscerated by a number of people (including Roger Simon of all people) for not taking a “Kill them all and let God sort them out.” sort of stance on the attack. I keep asking, what do you guys think is the proper solution for this? Everyone seems more or less offended by the fact that I’m supposedly advocating dhimmitude (yes I know what it means, it’s actually a hybrid word: “dhimmi” is I believe Arabic and -tude is of course English) by arguing that though people have the right to do something (something dhimmis historically didn’t) they should refrain from actually burning Korans because it could get people killed. How radical and dhimmi-like, I’d rather win the war than make a point.
I keep asking all of the “it’s a death cult” fanatics what they think should happen. Now I’m going to ask a further, even more charged question. If you want to burn the Koran, and incite this sort of violence in Arab and Muslim countries, how many of you have children serving in the military there? Siblings, spouses? Perhaps family members working as aid workers? My guess is not very many. Just because the U.N. personnel weren’t American and died in a foreign country doesn’t make their deaths any less real for their families. And yes, I know that responsibility for their killings lies with the killers, but it also lies with a loud-mouth charlatan from Florida who wanted some publicity for himself. IF HE HADN’T BURNED THAT KORAN, THOSE PEOPLE WOULD STILL BE ALIVE. How hard is it to understand that this makes it bad for him to do this?
The problem here is that from the point of view of Mr. Jones’ supporters, both in the comments section above, and elsewhere, Muslims are a monolithic, ideological hivemind, with no individuality or variation, one from the next. In truth, of course, there are many flavors of Islam and Muslims. Some are extremists, some aren’t. Most are just people who follow a different religion. If you don’t like it, you don’t follow it, that simple. I’m pretty firm about that one, and I’ve been elsewhere rather scathing about the fact that several Muslim nations get an exemption from the U.N. Convention on Human Rights, which among other things contains a clause requiring the signatories to espouse religious freedom. Some Muslim countries get it, many don’t (yet) and have to be further educated. I said to a friend the other evening, over dinner, that what rankled with me about the WTC mosque wasn’t whether they had the right to build it (clearly they do) it’s the idea of getting a lecture on religious toleration, from Muslims, that upsets me. What’s next, a talk on the dangers of covering up widespread pedophilia, given by the Catholic church?
My wife just came into the room and we chatted for just a minute about this, and she said something profound: “Two jackasses don’t make a saint.” Intolerance on the part of Islamist extremists, if met by mindless intolerance on the side of those in the West, can only lead to chaos. Note the word “mindless” in the previous sentence. A philosopher once said (don’t ask me who, I’m bad with quotes) that extremism in pursuit of virtue is no vice. What he meant, in my opinion, is that being extreme in the protection of religious freedom, for instance, is actually a good thing. Thing is, we have to either kill the billion or so Muslims on the planet, or convince them of the error of their ways. I think the convincing will work better, especially since I’m not sure the other is practical anyway.
Oh, and one news flash. Whether the Bibles were burned when Bush was in office, or after Obama succeeded him, is irrelevant. It turns out both men, in their own way, were/are trying to win the war. I wasn’t the biggest fan of Bush, and I’m even less happy with Obama, but nevertheless this is a no-brainer. Proselytizing in a Muslim country (especially a backwards one like Afghanistan, where they’ve recently threatened to execute people who converted from Islam to Christianity) is, for the moment, something we need to avoid doing. We need to teach them to crawl before we can exhort them to run the Boston Marathon.
F#%K ALL OF ‘EM
Nuke em and eliminate the problem. Our country has turned into a bunch of wimps and socialist scum.
Its all a joke Bottom line The Bible Is the word of God. There is No other God. The reason we are in all the trouble the usa is because we have turn our backs on God. God will fight all your wars and is the answer the all your problems. God is not to be mock, he will have the word{word of God}And burning his word we deserve everything we get. Stand up for the Word of God and stop being Babys
i say burn it and them. i am intolerate to their ignorance. women are treated awful and the men think they will go to heaven and upteen virgin for their taking. now i ask you is this god like. i am usually very liberal but this takes the cake. dont’t burn the queron but burn our bibles to passify those idiots. hell no.
If I would ever meet Obama, Hillary, and Petreus, I would ask them why is it a hate crime to burn a Koran but not a Bible then I would remind them that for millions of Christians around the world what they refer to as just a bible, they call it Holy. Then I would ask them why do you think it is called The HOLY Bible.
Stop the the double standard!