Strange Customs in Far Away Lands
Blame it all on the movie Speed.
Harry: Alright, pop quiz: The airport. Gunman with one hostage, he’s using her for cover, he’s almost to the plane. You’re a hundred feet away.
Jack: …
Harry: Jack?
Jack: Shoot the hostage.
Harry: What?
Jack: Take her out of the equation. Go for the good wound and he can’t get to the plane with her. Clear shot.
Harry: You are deeply nuts, you know that? “Shoot the hostage”… jeez…
Life imitated art in Algeria, according to one Filipino worker who was taken hostage. The Algerian rescue force seemed relatively unconcerned who got hit as long as they took down the Masked Brigade, who depending on what source you believe, started their attack from either Libya or the Niger. “Ruben Andrada, 49, a Filipino civil engineer … described how he and his colleagues were used as human shields by the kidnappers, which did little to deter the Algerian military.”
With detcord wrapped around his neck and caught in the gunbattle between the Masked Brigade and Algerian forces, he regarded his chances of survival as doubtful. Andrada retreated into that classic Filipino attitude: “bahala na”. He thought ‘leave it to God’ as bullets kicked up the ground around him.
“When we left the compound, there was shooting all around,” Andrada said, as Algerian helicopters attacked with guns and missiles. “I closed my eyes. We were going around in the desert. To me, I left it all to fate.”
But when the vehicle carrying Andrada turned turtle in the desert, he gave fate a hand and scrambled from the wreckage to escape. His fellow hostages were not so lucky. All around him were strewn the corpses and body parts of people.
According to the Washington Post, the Masked Brigade destroyed more than the lives of innocent civilians. It wrecked the administration’s grand diplomatic plan for Africa. Craig Whitlock writes, “the hostage crisis in Algeria has upended the Obama administration’s strategy for coordinating an international military campaign against al-Qaeda fighters in North Africa, leaving U.S., European and African leaders even more at odds over how to tackle the problem.”
Algeria’s unilateral decision to attack kidnappers at a natural gas plant — while shunning outside help, imposing a virtual information blackout and disregarding international pleas for caution — has dampened hopes that it might cooperate militarily in Mali, U.S. officials said. The crisis has strained ties between Algiers and Washington and increased doubts about whether Algeria can be relied upon to work regionally to dismantle al-Qaeda’s franchise in North Africa.
“The result is that the U.S. will have squandered six to eight months of diplomacy for how it wants to deal with Mali,” said Geoff D. Porter, an independent North African security analyst. “At least it will have been squandered in the sense that the Algerians will likely double down on their recalcitrance to get involved. They’ve already put themselves in a fortress-like state.”
Part of the problem between Algeria and Washington might be what is called a cultural divide. The Algerians, according to the Telegraph, have adopted the Russian philosophy of warfare in which casualties and collateral damage are considered regrettable but ultimately unavoidable byproducts of combat. Richard Spencer writes that the Western press is used to relatively bloodless hostage rescues, but the Russians — and their students the Algerians — do things differently.
The biggest exceptions in recent years have been two bloody massacres in Russia – the Moscow Theatre siege of 2002, ended violently by Russian special forces with the loss of 129 hostages and 39 attackers, and the Beslan school crisis, brought to an even more wretched conclusion with the deaths of hundreds of children held by Chechen separatists and Islamist terrorists.
The Algerian assault on the In Amenas gas facility appears to have followed the Russian model. It may be no coincidence that Algeria, long allied to the Soviet bloc, still relies on Russia for both weapons and special forces military training. …
French analysts said the Algerian force given responsibility was the “Special Intervention Group”, a force dating back to a now disbanded unit employed to brutal effect in the civil war. It would have regarded any escape by the militants as especially humiliating.
“They do not negotiate with terrorists,” Philippe Lobjois, an Algeria specialist, told Europe 1 radio. That point was reiterated by Algeria’s own communications minister, Mohamed Said Belaid on Wednesday as the raid was under way.
“We say that in the face of terrorism, yesterday as today as tomorrow, there will be no negotiation, no blackmail, no respite,” Mr Belaid said.
The Special Intervention Group turned out to be as good as his word.
But it may be more than Russian training. As events in places as far afield as the Congo, Sri Lanka, Libya, Syria and now Algeria show, much of the world has much more permissive attitude towards collateral damage than America and Western Europe. If an American handles a Koran without white gloves, the world rises in outrage. But elsewhere business is transacted according to the local custom. LP Hartley in his classic novel The Go Between wrote “the past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.” He might have added that a foreign country is a foreign country too. They do things differently there also. They imitate Washington when they admire it. Do they admire it now? — well that is another subject.
It’s a complex world. Below is a trailer a documentary describing how the Commonwealth of the Philippines saved thousands of Jews during World War 2. That is probably as little known as the fact that the Battle of Manila cost more civilian lives than either Hiroshima or Nagasaki.
Ironically the thousands of Jews given refuge by the Philippines were caught up in the Pacific War. However, the Japanese didn’t know the difference between the German Jews and German non-Jews. They were all white guys to them. The Japanese treated them as citizens of country allied to Nippon.
Interestingly enough many of the Spanish, Italian and German aliens fared worse than the American and allied prisoners because the camps at Cabanatuan, Sto. Tomas and Los Banos were liberated by US and Philippine forces practically without loss of life. Many Germans, Spanish and Italians, by contrast sought refuge in their embassies in Manila, where they were massacred by the Japanese for whom one white guy was identical to those in the First Cavalry bearing down on Manila.
The Jewish recollections of the Philippnes? It is the same as those of the guy in the second video: full of happy people. Of course to a large extent that “hapi-hapi”ness was a native survival adaptation. People have to remain optimistic in the face of adversity.
The Three Conjectures at Amazon Kindle for $1.99
Storming the Castle at Amazon Kindle for $3.99
No Way In at Amazon Kindle $8.95, print $9.99
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I have noticed generally favorable comments about the Algerian response. Time will tell whether Algeria is bothered again.
….We say that we don’t negotiate with terrorists as cover for negotiating with terrorists. The ‘ squandering of 6-8 months of diplomacy on how we want to deal with Mali ‘is nothing compared with what we will squander in Mali doing it our way. Once, not really that long ago, we fought to the death, in Europe and Asia, to utterly conquer our foes. We’ll have to do that again, or we will lose and Islam will utterly dominate us. Algeria points the way to success in our war. Hillary and Obama point the way to failure.
…Keyser Soze had it right. So did Cump. War is hell, it cannot be refined.
Firstly a technical question, what is it with this site that has made my scrolling down keep flipping back to the top of page. It’s making reading this blog extremely hard.
The broader question, which impinges on afghanistan as well, is why rules of engagement are not much more harmful to terrorists rather than protective of civilians. Every time someone gets hurt in afghanistan Karzai has a moan about it. Dostum wouldn,t do that, or any other of the generals who figured largely in the routing of the Taliban in 2001/2.
It’s amazing how more drone strikes are ok now that Obama does them. Unfortunately they won,t be enough to clean out the Pakistani badlands, which appear now to be the entire nation.
I haven’t looked but think the problem is the document is loading asynchronously. It is composed of many components and structured so that you can proceed while that component loads. Meanwhile you can scroll. But when it finishes loading it calls back and jerks you back to its point of completion.
This may be more noticeable in smartphones or tablets which have slower connections.
That’s just my guess.
W. T. Sherman, the first President of my school (LSU) of course said it best. Some enternal verities are forgotten at their peril. Of course the Obamassiah (now I see in his next iteration/”second coming” acording to Newsweek) has obviously never really learned any in the first place, being the narcissistic afirmative action sociopath of dubious academic accomplishment (save for notably leading the “Choom Gang”) that he is…it’s all Day One since he came to power..
Looking at things from the terrorists point of view, consider the response from the US to the attack on the Libyan embassy. How many casualties did the attackers take?
On the other hand, what was the final casualty rate for the attackers in Algeria?
Which attack is most likely to be repeated? If you were part of Al Qaeda, who would YOU pick as your next target, based on your results so far?
and from the Post article which you linked to: “During the civil war in the 1990s, one faction of Algerian generals earned the nickname “the eradicators” for their insistence on eliminating enemies instead of negotiating.”
Sounds like people who knew they were fighting a real war, rather than posing for the cameras and playing ideological games that sound good at all the right parties.
from the BBC:
”French President Francois Hollande defended the Algerian response to the crisis as being “the most suitable”.
“When you have people taken hostage in such large numbers by terrorists with such cold determination and ready to kill those hostages – as they did – Algeria has an approach which to me, as I see it, is the most appropriate because there could be no negotiation,” he told journalists.”
strange customs coming to a theater near you indeed !
SF
You want to drag out a war? Do the Incremental Escalation Polka!
It’s too bad Bush didn’t “go postal” for a few more weeks back in 2001.
Really, how many daisy cutters would have been too many?
By the time the American people is ready to smite the enemy (Islam), our Traitor-in-Chief will have already destroyed the strength of the American military.
Obama: 2016 was well worth seeing. It’s story line is happening before our eyes. In 2016 we’ll be floppy weak like the Chinese empire was in the 19th century.
#3 Blogstrop
Click on the header at the top of the article rather than the “read more” at the bottom. This is what I have to do on my iPhone to avoid the problem you discribe. HTH
As long as the Algerian Army follows through and kills the families and friends of the radical Muslims the loss of life will not increase. With the situation they faces they didn’t do that bad.
The question should be – why Others don’t want and have no faith in “Smart Power”?
With supposedly the ‘Adults’ in charge and the ‘smartest minds’ to lead.
The “Let god sort em out” idea certainly has its proponents and I can’t say that it should never be used. I think the Algerians would have gone in with tanks and APCs except that the natural gas plant was one large fuel/air bomb waiting for the detonator to go pop.
The difference between the US method and that of Russia seems to be a cultural thing. Or maybe just a political one. Americans wants for everone to like them and it is evident in some of the European nations as well. Russia and most of the rest of the world says I don’t care where you like me or not, just so that you get knee trembles when I walk through the door.
The state departments statement of we don’t negotiate with terrorists is a bunch of baloney. Of course they do. It’s just opposite of the TR saying of “Speak softly and carry a big stick”. Too bad that we don’t have a leadership that is willing to go medieval, say about Thirteenth Century medieval.
….Yeah Cheese, but we were never loved more than right after we got finished killing folks on an industrial scale.
the Obama administration’s strategy
That’s what you call your Occimoron.
The Algerians, according to the Telegraph, have adopted the Russian philosophy of warfare in which casualties and collateral damage are considered regrettable but ultimately unavoidable byproducts of combat.
Everybody has that philosophy, what they differ on is a matter of degree, interpretation.
If an American handles a Koran without white gloves, the world rises in outrage.
Six reporters in the American MSM and European academe rise in outrage, and various perpetually seething elements of US society pick it up and echo it unless preoccupied with imaginary girlfriends or the like.
You in the back, get in line.
Conform.
Dad, what was punk rock?
Uhmm. Conformity…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rQurYKnTxw
Cough.
Biggs BS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkLOQJXgtv4
Gerard Vanderleun notices another connection to the movie Speed.
The administration is trying to make the bus go faster to jump the ramp. But as Gerard notes at the link “There are now so many programs and initiatives in play on so many levels that just keeping up with a fraction of them will have you pointing and clicking 25 hours a day.”.
Good point.
There are so many priorities, historic initiatives, groundbreaking new ideas and global bargains in the works that it’s a wonder that anyone has the time to change the toilet paper roll or take out the trash.
What happens when the Western political agenda collapses under its own preciousness? “Shoot the hostage … make it go faster”. Yipee-kai-yay.
7. SF – from the BBC:
”French President Francois Hollande defended the Algerian response to the crisis as being “the most suitable”.
“When you have people taken hostage in such large numbers by terrorists with such cold determination and ready to kill those hostages – as they did – Algeria has an approach which to me, as I see it, is the most appropriate because there could be no negotiation,” he told journalists.”
Last week Hollande was visiting the UAE and this was at the same moment his troops (Foreign Legion) were landing in Bamako (Mali). He was questioned by some journalist in the sense of what the French troops would do when they met the Islamists. “Well”, he said “kill them of course … the terrorists … or eventually take them prisoner, wwhen this is possible.” He seems not to beat about the bush, doesn’t he?
President Hollande can say “kill them of course … the terrorists” because he is French and socialist. And the Algerians can go in with all guns blazing because they are Algerian, Muslim and because they can.
If President Bush had uttered Hollande’s words there would have been a display of indignation such as the world had never seen. Intellectuals would shriek and pass out; he would be burned in effigy; a European judge would charge him with war crimes. But with Hollande. Crickets.
There’s no use protesting against the unfairness of it all. Far better to realize the truth. The casino is rigged. “Fairness” is another word for a “double standard”; that the New York Times, the Washington Post and Candy Crowley are far from fair. That’s just how it is.
Either you ignore them and go about your business. Or you listen to them and they will peck you to death. Probably the best thing to do is to listen to the doubtful guidance of the Constitution and the Ten Commandments. If it’s OK by those 2 documents you are probably better off than listening to the media, who pour scorn on anything they don’t actually fear.
With this feckless bunch of sissies running our government, it might be wise to forgo working overseas in third world sh**holes for the foreseeable future.
19. wretchard
you should read the comments from our supposed EU partners on France. They think that Hollande does that from neo-colonialism, that he wants to distinguish himself, that they will no go in for french interests, that they aren’t concerned by terrorism in such a far away country…
One thing is certain, the french military and Hollande have understood that there will never be such a European army, that’s our former enemy, Algeria is becoming our true allie, and that’s good, as we all have the feeling from the both sides of the Mediterranea that Algeria war was a fratricide war. We are of the same culture. The Algerian used to make all the french wars, they were in Crimea war, 187O, WW1, WW2…Indochine
if you wants a good laugh, check the nuts at the EU commission talking of terrorism
http://www.bruxelles2.eu/politique-etrangere/terrorisme/une-menace-terroriste-en-europe-cest-bien-vague-tout-ca.html
I’m not surprised how they delt the last hostages crisis, it’s a bit like we do too, so far we hadn’t as many hostages taken at the same time. I don’t think, that the Russians had any influence on their method, our DGSE men were/are in Algeria, (the french hostage killed was the DGSE responsible for Maghreb, sur, the terrorists knew him) I’m also sure that common trainings with our forces occured. We also share intelligence on the moves of potential terrorists from our both countries
BO and W before him may not talk big like Hollande, but the drones and renditions talk for them (and the kill lists in the case of BO). Until the jihadists in Mali were actually coming down the roads to take over the whole place, the French were in an extended dither about who or what to send when.
“Talk big and wave a limp stick” appears to be their motto, until that suddenly stops working.
Mead: http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2013/01/18/your-guide-to-the-madness-in-mali/
provides a good introduction to: France in Mali – End of the Fairytale
http://africasacountry.com/2013/01/14/france-in-mali-the-end-of-the-fairytale/
MC @ 21
‘ (the french hostage killed was the DGSE responsible for Maghreb, sur, the terrorists knew him)’
MC please provide your sources because DGSE usually don’t advertise their whereabouts.
Thanks
SF
It was a murder-suicide operation from the first.
It’s an AQIM trademark.
To be captured by them is to be a dead man walking — and the escapees speak of it.
———
Tells that it’s a murder-suicide op:
Bizarre demands that are entirely beyond the ability of the counter-party to meet.
No way out. That is, even should every demand be conceded, the players cant escape and evade back into the back-round.
Beslan and the Moscow theater were ops of this type.
The goofy ‘negotiations’ were mere agitprop on the way to a final shoot out.
Visions of Aliens and Inglourious Basterds floated through their brains.
Without Hollywood to give them vision — these clowns wouldn’t have a clue how to be bad.
Well, Wretchard, if the Hegemon will not lead – then the locals who have been abandoned to their own devices must do the best they can with such help as they can find. If Obama wanted to prevent this, he should have immediately offered to send in Delta Force or some other US anti-terror force and let them perform a hostage rescue. He did not. He wants to gut defense spending to fund Obamacare and buy votes so he can take the House back from the “evil Republicans” – and he will.
As for the outcome of this, well, the Algerians have sent the message loud and clear that hostage taking is useless and terrorism will not pay. Good for them. I think this strategy will actually save lives in the long run, as the terrorists will look for easier marks. If I were Obama, I would now be more worried about terrorists attacking the US or Europe now. After all, Wretchard, as you pointed out, the US must operate under a double – standard no one else is exptected to adhere to.
Why, you might ask, is “Blazing Pink Knickers” or whatever it is called, not hot footing its self righteous way to Algeria to protest the general and open indifference to the fate of hostages. The answers are that the Algerians don’t care about the hostages; might shoot Blazing Pink Knickers too; plus the chance of Blazing Pink Knickers shaking down some donation cash in Algeria is zero. The Outrage Industry is careful to protest only where it can safely protest and where the protests will turn a shower of dollars onto its self righteous head.
The Leaning Left Tower of Babble can survive only in countries where the main function of the State is protecting “progressive” ideas and institutions from knuckle dragging conservative reactionaries. State protection of progressivism is there even when the American President is a Republican. That protection is super-sized when the American President is a Lefty Popinjay.
Its hyposcrisy the rest of the world does not suffer gladly. For some reason people in the USA are easily distracted, unable to focus on realities.
The USA has been in bed with Saudi Arabia for decades, funding the spread of sharia law and terrorism on a global scale. Our currency system is based on sales of Saudi Petroleum fueling the fires of Saudi radicalism. The U.S. government turns a blind eye towards Saudi funding of terrorism such as in Mumbai and continues selling increasing arms and weaponry to Saudi Islamist radicals.
The rest of the world does not have these blinders on, and will respond with appropriate action to fight Islamic terrorism, something the USA has been incapable of doing since 1971.
As far as president W. Bush going postal…invading Iraq was ridiculous and nothing to do with fighting terrorism, the world saw through the nonsense even if America refused too.
If we truly wanted to rid the world of islamic Terror the invasion would have been in Saudi Arabia and be done with it.
Bug or Feature?
The administration is trying to make the bus go faster to jump the ramp. But as Gerard notes at the link “There are now so many programs and initiatives in play on so many levels that just keeping up with a fraction of them will have you pointing and clicking 25 hours a day.”.
Cloward–Piven strategy
http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloward%E2%80%93Piven_strategy
@25 “If Obama wanted to prevent this, he should have immediately offered to send in Delta Force or some other US anti-terror force and let them perform a hostage rescue. He did not. ”
According to a STRATFOR report,
“On the second day of the crisis, foreign assistance including advisors and counterterrorism teams started to arrive in Algeria. Algerian forces, however, sidelined the Europeans and Americans and executed a raid to free hostages on their own. An estimated 30 hostages were reported killed in the operation. The hostage situation endured because the Algerians did not have sufficient intelligence on the location of the attackers, though they knew some militants and foreign hostages remained in a workshop deep inside the facility.”
The Algerians decided to handle their problem in their own way; they were not lacking for “outside assistance and advice”, they just had no use for it. If the AQ kidnapping crews are looking for soft targets and big ransoms, they will not be finding them in Algeria, apparently.
Current Worldwide Homicide/Murder Rate
Algeria: 0.64 per 100,000 (2006)
19. wretchard
“President Hollande can say “kill them of course … the terrorists” because he is French and socialist. And the Algerians can go in with all guns blazing because they are Algerian, Muslim and because they can.
If President Bush had uttered Hollande’s words there would have been a display of indignation such as the world had never seen. Intellectuals would shriek and pass out; he would be burned in effigy; a European judge would charge him with war crimes. But with Hollande. Crickets.”
Indeed Hollande can say this because he is French and because political correctness in this respect, so prevailing in the Anglo-Saxon world, has not yet reached France. The Nordic regions of Europe from Ireland to Sweden including the Netherlands, Germany and Austria are also afflicted by this political correctness disease. Eastern Europe (former Warsaw-pact members) are not. Being socialist gives some immunity but is here a minor factor. It is more the ‘Old World nation state’ approach, which is still present in France. This applies also to Algeria, which has a strong national identity feeling, probably instilled and copied from the French. Being Muslim in their case doesn’t seem to be a significant factor. They are fiercely anti-salafist or anti-wahabist. The speed of the relief of 97% of the hostages remains commendable and was a real exploit. Everything was concluded in 3 days and not 3 months. All in all a message has been sent by the Algerians to the jihadist: “Don’t tread on me!”. The latter will take notice.
President Bush in his days was way too much under the influence of Tony Blair and acted very politically correct in some essential cases, which of course turned sour. (Iraq – UN-resolutions, WMD, Iraq occupation rules, etc.) It took 4 years and Petreaus to come to some sensible approach.
#23 SF
sorry, I was quoting from my hubb, here some precisions:
The french hostage killed was a former military (of the french special forces who often was sent in operations abroad), responsible of the security:
-http://www.sudouest.fr/2013/01/19/otage-basque-tue-en-algerie-qui-etait-yann-desjeux-940003-4803.php
http://www.europe1.fr/International/Algerie-qui-etait-l-otage-francais-mort-1385335/
Sure, it would have been nice if more of the hostages had been rescued. But bottom line: in a military conflict, I prefer allies who are over-eager rather than timorous.
Let’s also keep in mind the reports that these Islamic groups have previously collected many, many millions of dollars in ransom money.
“However, the Japanese didn’t know the difference between the German Jews and German non-Jews.”
I am imagining a Japanese official explaining to an indignant German representative: “All you Germans look alike to us.”
31. fcal
Hollande’s father was/is far-rightist, and pro OAS, thus pro “Algerie Française”
It’s not Hollande habit to make such a sttrong voice against terrorism, might be that that’s because of his family background. Some who wrote his bio, say that he became “socialist” while revolting against his father. He used to collect lead soldiers when he was young, and when his family moved from Rouen to Paris, his father forced him to abandon his collection, and his comrads.
Robert S/10: thanks for that suggestion, I will try it (my smartphone does the un-scroll of which Blogstrop/3 complains, and it has been a real nuisance).
Wretchard/19: This is another piece of brilliantly distilled wisdom. So easy to forget; so valuable to remember. Thanks.
“Either you ignore them and go about your business. Or you listen to them and they will peck you to death. Probably the best thing to do is to listen to the doubtful guidance of the Constitution and the Ten Commandments. If it’s OK by those 2 documents you are probably better off than listening to the media, who pour scorn on anything they don’t actually fear.”
As for the actions of the Algerians: I mourn the dead and wounded hostages even as I applaud the action. From all accounts they were facing a (near) impossible tactical situation which in spatial terms was unmanageably large and complex and in temporal terms was going to hell in a handbasket at high and rising speed. Plus their doctrine and training appear to have been in the refreshingly straightforward Soviet model, so why should we expect them suddenly to get all lovey-dovey? So it goes. And the message here is pretty clear. No deal, go bother somebody else.
And, of course, the terrorists will do exactly that. The question is, who? Hollande must have French internal security cranked up to 11 by now. That’s expensive, tiring and unpopular. Plus it can’t work perfectly.
The solution is to make the cost of attacks prohibitive. Hard to do with people who love death so much, and whose friends and neighbors seem as much in love with death as they.
Marie Claude @ 32
Merci Beaucoup mais ils ne mentionnent pas – aucun de ces articles – qu’il était membre de la DGSE…pour le reste il semble avoir eu le mec une vie trépidante !!
———for the BCer from google translate————–
Many thanks, (but)your links they do not mention – none of these articles – (that) he was a member of the DGSE … for the rest (of) it seems the guy had a hectic life!
SF
note per wikiped:
The General Directorate for External Security (French: Direction Générale de la Sécurité Extérieure, or DGSE) is France’s external intelligence agency. Operating under the direction of the French ministry of defence, the agency works alongside the DCRI (the Central Directorate of Interior Intelligence) in providing intelligence and national security, notably by performing paramilitary and counterintelligence operations abroad. As with most other intelligence agencies, details of its operations and organization are not made public.
One difference between Speed and the real world is how the media shows bus passengers… Instead of looping a tape that shows everything normal, they play constant disasters and crime on the news. This can fool people into not taking bus transportation, but relying on GM which is owned by you-know-who (hint: Barack Obama).
alex@27:
It had a lot more to do with isolating Iran.
Soon
California residents will speed from LA to Corcoran on the Silver Bullet.
Honolulu Businesses will be disrupted for over a decade during construction of a light rail line.
Langley@28
Cloward-Piven
36. SF
When our EU partners fail to see what is at stakes in Mali
Russia is going to contribuate to our efforts :
-http://www.operationspaix.net/32301-details-actualite-mali-la-russie-aidera-militairement-la-france.html
http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2013/01/18/01003-20130118ARTFIG00569-mali-moscou-promet-une-aide-militaire-a-la-france.php
20. trangbang68
“With this feckless bunch of sissies running our government, it might be wise to forgo working overseas in third world sh**holes for the foreseeable future.”
These days, I’d add domestic sh**holes like Chicago to that list…
Terror operations cost money. To discourage them do not only reduce the value of the hostages but target the bankers. The banks and mosque in Milan are a key nexus (or is it a node?) of Islamic terror. We should take a page from Alinsky and hold the enemy to the rules they seek to hold us to. We should demand the public ostentatious display of respect towards Christian Jewish or for that matter Hindu or Buddhist symbols by Muslims.
The cost of competent (foreign) human capital needed to enrich Islamist oil ticks should now be prohibitive. The best way to drain the swamp is to frack new energy sources and reopen or build new nuke plants. Anyone arguing against non-Islamist energy should be thoroughly investigated and if found to be a recipient of money from the Arabs Iran Chavez Putin or China should be prosecuted and publicly attacked as an Enemy Agent.
well MC (@41) russians are going to offer a transport plane ( as linked from Novosti on U de M site …) The same with Canada who’s going to contribute with a another transport plane.
Maybe next time the French could offer to the next Malborough guy diplomatic immunity and lodge him in Mt St-Michel
ps: you have’nt said a word about my request about DGES. I personnaly would like to see a link, a quote, a source or whatever! Sorry but I insist because this is going to be BIG news. Another Bengazoui of sort
SF
Our lite footprint is intact. Piles of civilian corpses do not spoil that. 0 should have at least dispatched Delta. There might not be time to go hot, the result may have only been marginally better, but at least deploy.
44. SF
I don’t have yet a link for Desjeux DGSE affiliation, (my hubb heard it on TV infos) but if he was sent on operations, he then was as a anonym.
Hey, you, guis, sold/sell “Malborough” to the Desert cartels !
http://www.agoravox.fr/tribune-libre/article/au-mali-les-troupes-francaises-129111
as far as the Russians, I doubt that their “help” consists only in planes, Bamako international airport is said to be over crowded with planes coming from all the “helping” nations, that don’t want to tell “officially” that they are there.
Lets not forget that the Algerian State is a child of Terrorist Revolution.
They remember how they won. And they don’t intend to be on the receiving end of simular treatment.
Shooting through the hostage is a known Spetsnaz tactic and was employed at Beslan. When you live in the front yard of the lion you don’t use timorous strategies nor tactics. I do feel sad for the families of those killed by the thugs of the Mohammed cult but you don’t really go to places like that without knowing the possible cost to yourself.
MC
I get it now:
‘I don’t have yet a link for Desjeux DGSE affiliation, (my hubb heard it on TV infos) but if he was sent on operations, he then was as a anonym.”
Dont tell anybody but wife of mine is chinese and her hubb (is in Taiwain by the way and he Skypes) tells her that tomorrow morning they will be special Dimsum (« cœur à petite touche ») in the chinese quarter not far from we live. But we have to get there and I still at a foot of snow to shovel. You know I’m in operations too !
4/4 out
The Russians taught them to be Draconian? I doubt it. Who fought one of the first terror wars against the West? Algeria. “The Battle of Algiers” wasn’t a cinematic work of fiction.
The trouble was after Algeria got its independence, factions couldn’t give up terrorism. So Algeria after using terrorism had to eliminate it.
Collateral casualties were simply the cost of doing business.
I enjoyed the videos very much, thank you.
P.S. the ‘three corner hat’ video was very good as well.
Someone should (and eventually will) cut the money flow and the music will stop pretty fast. But for at least half a century now everyone seems to be interested in the continuation of the show that started in late 19-th century as socialist and communists movements and after the WWII morphed into various “liberation” movements. Hard to believe all of it was spontaneous. Apparently it is profitable to all involved and it will not stop until profitability would dry up.
Strange Customs in our Own Land
A very big problem we have as a society is figuring out how to separate those who have suffered from unfair discrimination and those who have not, but make the claim anyway. An interesting commentary on the issue can be found on page 198 of Loree Draude Hirschman’s book, She’s Just Another Navy Pilot http://preview.tinyurl.com/b9c928x . Ms.Hirschman was among the early pioneering female Naval Aviators, and was aboard during the deployment of the USS Lincoln which also included the first two female F-14 fighter pilots, the late Lt. Kara Hultgreen and Lt. Carey Lohrenz.
Both women became media celebrities, with their legacies available on YouTube. Lt. Hultgreen, made a low, off-line approach, “flooded” the port engine as she slammed the throttles forward to compensate, thereby causing a flameout due to exceeding the upper explosive limit of the jet fuel. The plane lost power and altitude and veered to its left due to the asymmetrical forces from having one good and one bad engine (see also Goose’s death in Top Gun). It did a wingover and her RIO ejected safely. She ejected 0.1 second later, but died when she hit the water. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMt9jfZBFIw
RIP Lt. Hultgreen.
Lt. Lohrenz went to the media complaining of gender discrimination, and was eventually discharged from the service with a $150,000 settlement. Here is what Lt. Hirschman had to say about Lt. Lohrenz.
Obviously, Lt. Hirschman is not a seer as Carey Lohrenz is now seen as a feminist heroine. But she was right about Lt. Lohrenz’s inflated self-esteem. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iONYeQ6A1zA
Being sent home likely saved Carey Lohrenz’s life, if not her ego.
BTW Has anybody ever figured out if Lisa Nowak http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_Nowak was among those females at Tail Hook who had her legs shaved by her fellow aviators? Given her later hijinks, I wouldn’t put it past her.
Industrial Scale Gun Confiscation in Australia
Armed robberies up 69 percent
Assaults with guns up 28 percent
Gun Murders up 19 percent
Home invasions up 21 percent
Home invasions in Britain ten times USA, according to Coulter.
Want to join the “hectic life” ?
the french army recruits 10000 soldiers
http://www.lepoint.fr/monde/l-armee-francaise-veut-recruter-10-000-soldats-en-2013-17-01-2013-1616243_24.php
Seems to me the terrorists get a win any way this scenario shakes out. Presumably they were willing to die in the first place, presumably they know negotiations over hostages rarely bears fruit, and in the end they take some agents of the “great satan” with them while achieving martyrdom in their screweed up world. Why waste money building phone bombs, when you can take 20 hostages, make a phone call, throw down some demands and wait for the shooting to start…
I think the lesson here is that when you win a war you may or may not then win “the hearts and minds”, but you win a war by winning the war.
In Afghanistan winning the war has never seemed as important as making sure the enemy was not offended.
When you have an enemy who just wants to win and couldn’t care less what you think of them being a nice guy doesn’t get you very far.
“All wars are dirty wars.” — Freeman Dyson
Try to save the hostages, but whatever you do, KILL THE BAD GUYS.
I read years ago, dunno if it’s true, that the reason the Soviets didn’t have trouble with the Arab nutters (besides, of course, the fact that they were arming them to the teeth) was that the USSR was more ruthless than the Arabs.
Example: some jihad boys kidnapped a couple of Soviet agents back in the 1980s. They then tried to blackmail the Russians. The Russians responded by immediately kidnapping four jihadis, killing them, cutting off their man-parts, and dumping them in the street in front of the jihadis’ headquarters.
Never had a spot of bother with them after that.
Josh, #15: “If an American handles a Koran without white gloves, the world rises in outrage.”
Six reporters in the American MSM and European academe rise in outrage, and various perpetually seething elements of US society pick it up and echo it unless preoccupied with imaginary girlfriends or the like.
Thread winner!
The reason the United States, in particular, is subjected to higher standards than other nations is that as an advanced Western nation, it has adopted a Code of Chivalry, “women and children first”. Less advanced Western societies do not follow this code, as evidenced by the crew of the Costa Concordia.
This situation made a peak in the 1950s and 1960s when the phrase “As American as MOM, apple pie and Chevrolet” was predominant. This happy state of affairs soon was soon under attack by Radical Feminists and their “Pro-Choice” argument against the then prevailing “Pro-Life” ethos of “women and children first”.
Since Roe v. Wade, American women have been engaged in a Civil War, Pro-Life v. Pro-Choice. Pro-Choice is losing demographically, as they have used the following generations as cannon fodder. Just as Europe lost a generation to conscription and World War I, the Radical Feminists have lost a generation to abortion. Just as totalitarian regimes use conscription against America and its All-Volunteer Army, there is the element of evil versus good. But without that succeeding generation, the feminists are fated to go extinct. We are experiencing the death throes of Radical Feminism. Obama was right that there is a War on Women, he just left off the part that it is a civil war of women against women. And the Fifth Estate is full of career women who are Pro-Choice. It is only at Fox News and the Weather Channel that Moms are in the majority.
Keep popping them out Megyn Kelly et al, you are the Arsenal of Western Civilization!
Machias, that’s precisely why the Progressives will do all they can to maintain control of the public education system. They might not have children, but they will co-opt yours.
All jokes aside, France’s military is one of the better ones out there. What does it say that it has trouble handling a piss-ant conflict such as Mali on its own? And what will the world be like when even the US military is “cut down to size”, Insha’Obama?
Strange customs in far away lands? It sounds like they used Janet Reno’s Waco tactics or Wilson Goode’s MOVE tactics.
Encefa @ 61 – I acknowledge your concerns, but would offer these good omens.
1) Women of the “Lost Generation” who were taught that they should put their childbearing on hold while they established their careers are discovering the pitfalls of such a strategy. Holly Finn, author of Baby Chase, An Adventure in Fertility http://preview.tinyurl.com/anf9guc, and others are discovering the hard way they have been sold a bill of goods.
2) Actresses, such as Maggie Gyllenhal are making movies in favor of school choice.
3) Have you talked to many public school teachers lately, they tend to be dumber than Ivy League Liberal Arts majors! Only a very, very few are “Smarter Than a Fifth Grader”.
4) As I mentioned on an earlier thread, today’s young mothers, such as P!nk, are stubborn and have guts! Given a little support by some GUARDIAN ANGELS TO CHILDREN, armed with “terrible, swift swords” from which they can loose a “fateful lightning”, they might actually surprise everyone with what they can do! Rosie the Riveter for a new century.
Rosie neither designed nor manned those Victory Ships my Dad designed, but she did build them.
MAN UP BOYS! Rosie needs your support and encouragement.
wretchard @ 16: “The casino is rigged. “Fairness” is another word for a “double standard”; that the New York Times, the Washington Post and Candy Crowley are far from fair.”
I wish people would stop accusing the media of a double standard. They have a single, uniform standard from which they never deviate.
If it’s good for the revolution, it’s good. If it even slows down the revolution for a second, it’s bad, even unprecedentedly bad, it’s one degree away from restoring A.H.
It’s not a double standard at all.
Machias: “Have you talked to many public school teachers lately, they tend to be dumber than Ivy League Liberal Arts majors!”
[George Takei voice:] Oh my!
I hope you’re right. Anyhow, be the omens good or bad, that doesn’t absolve us of the responsibility of fighting the good fight. Onwards!
Just, where did the terrorist’s get the detonation cord and other potent military items?
Let me guess:
“Some experts say that Nato forces and the US government were so consumed by the threat of surface-to-air missiles in the wake of Qadhafi’s fall that they failed to halt the proliferation of the ordinary high-calibre weapons that may now be fuelling Mali’s Islamist insurgency and could carry drastic implications for a region already reeling from lawlessness and a growing Al Qaeda threat. Some of those weapons have already reached Syria and the Gaza Strip.”
“While it is impossible to measure the exact role that Libya’s revolution and the ensuing security vacuum played in the recent unrest, analysts say that without the arrival of Libyan weapons and trained fighters, it would have been far more difficult for Mali’s extremist groups to seize control of the country’s vast desert north.”
http://dawn.com/2013/01/20/weapons-fighters-from-libya-might-be-at-root-of-algeria-standoff/
Thank you 0bama!
The grey beards will remember that Attica Prison was not such a far off land when Gov. Nelson Rockefeller used the same shoot-em-all tactics to end an embarrassment to his authority.
The entirely foreseeable consequences of arming Islamists in Libya and providing them with air support begs the same old question with this Administration. Are these people too caught up in their own magnificence to correctly add 2+2 or was creating more chaos in North Africa part of the plan? After all, they didn’t hesitate to create chaos in Mexico to further their domestic agenda.
It would seem that the Culture of Death keeps expanding its reach.
Encefa @ 66 – I can tell you for a fact that kids are by nature both curious and always learning. They have to be, being a kid does not come with an instruction book. So they are an extremely powerful force to be reckoned with. I have 46 kids in my sailing class. They are becoming autodidacts. They will be the SEALS of the homefront.
They really LOVE it when someone can answer their questions.
Why is the sky blue?
If heat rises, why are the Himalayan peaks covered by glaciers?
Why is it “red sky in morning, sailor take warning, red sky at night, sailor’s delight?”
WHY?, WHY?, THEY ARE ALWAYS ASKING WHY?
At least until public school teachers “teach” then the futility of asking WHY?
But we have two daily objectives.
1) Have fun!
2) Learn something new each day, because knowledge is POWER!
58 @ beverly
I think what you describe happened in Beirut in the 1980s where the jihadis were kidnapping, torturing, and killing our people without consequence. The Russians believe in consequences. Just ask the Chechens.
Machias, I can’t resist.
This is a travesty because these hostages belonged to the administration. They were their hostages just like the dead children of Sandy Hook were their dead children. They need them to further the usurpation of American liberty and if these events do not randomly come, then like the death of Ambassador Stevens and Fast and Furious they must be covertly fomented. The American people are the true hostages and the administration will extort even more blood and treasure from the desiccated corpse before all of this is done, complements of the world’s largest hate group.
The sad answer is the one should bomb any suspected hostage location. Terrorists plan around expected responses and if there is a reasonable chance of ignominious annihilation then the less to plan for.
Ultimately, these people we incorrectly call “terrorists” in Mali and the rest of North Africa want to win. Tactics, goals, motivation, etc are all secondary to actually winning for their side.
Because the news organs will not call them what they are, militant Islamic warriors, fighting for the expansion of Islam (their version) and all the loot that they can gather (from Timbuktu ! On razza!). Whether kidnapping Westerners for fun and profit (ransom) or just killing because it is fun and advances their goals, this drama will continue into the forseeable future. A relative handful of French soldiers ( 3000? ) in Mali is not a world changing force. They may temporarily staunch the hemoraging, but against this visceral force of rising hate and murder that calls itself Islam, this will be as nothing.
The West needs a clear idea of what it is fighting, why it is fighting, what it is fighting for and against. For many years, Mr. Fernandez and a host of others have tried to explicate that idea. The result is, I think, that the “Gates of Vienna” has now been taken down by its web host as being in violation of the hosting rules.
That sounds like a victory.
In the days after 9/11/2001, numerous things were written about why we can’t lose, why we won’t lose, etc., etc.
Guess what? We’re losing.
I’m sure that in “tough fighting” in the days ahead, the French will exact some retribution in Mali and “stem the onslaught” of these “terrorists” rampaging in the sub-Sahara region. And then go home. And the subversion of France and the rest of Europe to Islam will continue apace. And they will (and we will in America) continue to look away from the obvious problem that stares us in the face.
And in a few years when the killing in Africa of Africans by Muslim Africans is wholesale and broad, the right thinking people will wring their hands and say important things like we have to understand their problems, colonialism, racism, blah, blah, blah,….
The British fought these guys (The Mahdi) in the 19th century in the Sudan, and sort of won with a modern army and stuff, but militant Islam is still with us and the British Empire is gone. The idea may change form and shape, but it lives and grows and is still killing. We refuse to accept that and refuse to see it for what it is, and that’s why we are losing.
“The solution is to make the cost of attacks prohibitive. Hard to do with people who love death so much, and whose friends and neighbors seem as much in love with death as they.”
There are limits to those who “want it”. That is why Saddam was willing to pay $25k to suicide bomber’s family. Not an insignificant figure. What they want is fame. The more you can kill them in a manner that either defames them or denies them celebrity the better.
The longer the standoff the more likely Sean Penn is going to show up to support the perpetrators and the more likely Oliver Stone will immortalize them with a tangle of Hollywood Leftest lies. The shorter the “crisis” the less air time the terrorists get. The best way to deny them fame is a short and pointless life. The Algerians have it right. These actions are made to “get the message out”. Deny them that and their lives are wasted.
Chuck @ 57: “I think the lesson here is that when you win a war you may or may not then win “the hearts and minds”, but you win a war by winning the war.”
That’s what grates on me when I hear Hillary or Obama talk about “ending” the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. You don’t “end” wars, you either win them or lose them.
The Democrats (and European leftists in general) don’t have the civilizational confidence to follow through.
#3 B – thanks for bringing up this problem. I started having it on my iPad weeks ago, which made it impossible to read comments, and made me think of abandoning the thing.
#10 R – and THANK YOU for solving the problem! Your method works for me.
Chivalry and noblesse oblige were French concepts, non? (Wiki goes so far as to mention the Greeks). I wish the unlucky hostages eternal peace, but commend the Algerians for their actions. Agree with AM @ 74 – glad to be spared the clowns of Hollyhood.
Still I wait….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4t8JrBfMHY
Encefa @ 71 –
Step one – Every kid must take and pass the “Swim Test”, AKA our version of BUD/S http://navyseals.com/nsw/bud-s-basic-underwater-demolition-seal-training/
Step two – They practice Color Guard duty.
Step three – They learn to sail independently, dealing with varying wind and wave conditions.
Step four – This year we are looking at adding on-the-water powerboat operation http://training.ussailing.org/Learning/Small_powerboat_handling/Powerboat_Skills.htm
SEAL Team Six- Don’t look back, someone may be gaining on you (and the majority of them are GRRRRLS!)
You know the drill, free to be you and me (except we have a long history of learning new things every day and having FUN!).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_26FOHoaC78
So we can kick your butt and have FUN doing it!
Chuck Berry – School Days http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNQywr3-HoY
Hail, Hail, Rock and Roll!