Haircuts Verts
Bloomberg says the “day of reckoning” is nigh. Despite the Irish bailout, the markets are punishing the PIIGS across the board with higher interest rates.
Borrowing costs for Europe’s most indebted nations are at record highs as Ireland’s capitulation in accepting a bailout of its banking industry stokes concern that other countries also will have to seek aid.
The average yield for 10-year debt from Greece, Ireland, Portugal, Spain and Italy reached 7.57 percent today, a euro- era record. The average premium investors demand to hold those securities instead of German bunds widened to as much as 492 basis points, the highest level of 2010. The average cost of insuring against default by the five nations using credit- default swaps reached a record 517 basis points on Nov. 23.
The Wall Street Journal says that Spain is working to quell rumors that Spain may be next. “Spanish shares tumbled, leading a fall in European stock markets, as investors questioned whether Iberian nations would be the next members of the euro zone to seek a bailout.” Prime Minister Zapatero assured investors that the rain in Spain will never cause great pain.
Spanish Prime Minister José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, in an effort to quell markets and prevent the spread of the euro zone’s sovereign-debt crisis to its fourth-largest economy, said there is “absolutely” no chance Spain will join Greece and Ireland in seeking a bailout from the European Union. The European Commission isn’t putting any pressure on Portugal to request financial aid, its president, José Manuel Barroso, said.
But the markets were not so sure. The Daily Telegraph noted that Spain had to pay record-high percentages on the bond market. “The premium on Spanish government bonds over benchmark German debt hit a new euro-lifetime high on Friday, as markets targeted larger eurozone periphery states while policymakers scrambled to deny reports Portugal was being pressured to seek a bailout.” Although public confidence in the stability of both the US dollar and the Euro remain high, just what would a “day of reckoning” mean? What happens when a state can’t pay?
Some experts believed the day of reckoning would never come. For example, Credit Suisse maintained that the European crisis was “not systemic”; that Europe could afford to bail out Ireland, Greece and Portugal, but even from the beginning it was understood that Spain would be a burden too far. The method for dealing with Spain was to make it unthinkable, to assume that the inevitable would never happen. The endgame for Ireland, when it came, was surprisingly sudden. After appearing manageable for months, things began to fall apart suddenly and irrevocably in October.
Sovereign default is suddenly thinkable. In the Euro’s case, Germany suggests the day of reckoning could mean a “haircut” for investors as Euro debts are restructured. That means investors who loaned money to sovereign nations could only collect a fraction of their debts. “Practically, Germany wants private investors to face ‘haircuts’ or other debt payment restructure measures. In order to include them, newly issued euro zone bonds would include collective action clauses (CACs). The CACs would allow for a country to restructure its debt repayments should it be unable to meet them, either by extending the maturity of bonds, by reducing interest payments or by a so-called ‘haircut’ — or writedown.”
In plain language some people are going to get poorer, in cases very much so. Nomura Chief Economist Stephen Roberts spells it out in euphimistic terms. “Over time the work-life balance could change”. That means work till you drop, dream about things once called holidays or heating or entertainment and hope you can afford macaroni and cheese — and not the premium kind either. This sudden poverty is likely to unleash a tsunami of anger among voters who will feel betrayed, who believe they have ‘paid into the system’ and are now told that it’s all gone, spent, gone. As Nomura economist Roberts so felicitously expressed it, “unfortunately they’re being forced into it, which always makes it politically more difficult.”
What probably worries the Euro-peans more than anything else is that the cure is now viewed as part of the disease. The Financial Times writes that the Irish bailout “has spooked” investors. Even though the size of Spain’s debt has remained relatively low, the interest it has had to pay to service its debts has climbed.
The world economy is venturing into uncharted territory. A failure of the Euro and debasement of the dollar no longer seems unthinkable. The piper will have to be paid and Leftist circles cannot understand why the United States isn’t turning Left. Now is the time for more government, the Left believes, to spread the wealth that has been concentrated in fewer and fewer hands. Now is the time for stronger, not weaker, government. Few of them believe that the destruction of the American middle class is correlated with the rise of regulation which has enabled a few mega-industries to extract rents while making the rest unsustainable. The contrary narrative, articulated by the Tea Party, holds that the great middle has been systematically destroyed by making it impossible to develop energy sources, innovate without legal consequences, go into business without a crushing regulatory burden or market distortion, or even to close the border. The Left dismisses the Tea Party interpretation of events as the ravings of know-nothings.
So they will pursue a different path.
To anticipate how the American Left will react to the US crisis, it is only necessary to observe how the European Left will react to the collapse of the old continent’s welfare states. They will unabashedly proclaim the crisis has come because the continent hasn’t gone far left enough. Ireland, for example, is being cast as an example of private enterprise gone wrong and therefore the solution is to “rein in the greed”. There’s a good chance the Left will succeed in the short run. The Spectator notes that the incumbents are hated so badly that the Irish are now turning in droves away from the Fianna Fail to Sinn Fein. “The moral nadir of any state must surely have come when Mr Gerry Adams MP announces that he is its white knight. Yes, this IRA butcher and architect of countless bombings and killings is abandoning Northern Ireland politics, and even his empty seat in Westminster, to stand in Ireland’s general election next year. He actually thinks that he is entitled to berate the politicians of the Irish Republic for their conduct … And by God, he could well have a point.” But the point isn’t that Sinn Fein will do better. The point is simply that it isn’t Fianna Fail.
It is this “false choice” — to use the favorite expression of Barack Obama — that Irish politicians are at pains to conceal from the public, argues the Specctator: that government, not the private sector, is at the heart of the problem. That by putting Gerry Adams and his crew onboard they are simply rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Adams has not come to dismantle the Castle. He has come to claim its throne.
There are two economies in Ireland: the private sector, which is still doing extraordinarily well — industrial output up 12 per cent in the past year, with Irish exports per capita nearly matching those of Germany. And then there is the tragedy of the public sector, an economic Chernobyl, endlessly spewing out toxic clouds of debt, and its adoptive cousin, the banking sector, which two years ago under the bank rescue scheme (obligatory under EU law) effectively became an arm of government.
There are two cultural explanations for the folly that is Ireland. The first is the who-you-know politics that is key to Fianna Fail’s style of government. The second is the other survivor from the pre-modern age: a tradition of flaithiúlacht, which means ruinous generosity, especially with someone else’s money … a political tribe that has no equivalent in Britain — well, not since the Highland Clearances … Fianna Fail’s culture has brought the Republic to the point of ruin unprecedented in Europe since the Weimar Republic defaulted on war reparations in 1930. The Irish government’s borrowings were €80 billion (as of last weekend: who knows today?), which is nearly €25,000 for every man, woman and child in the state. But the government is frantically adding millions to that figure every week, in order to maintain outgoings on a public sector.
The coming year may see both sides of the Atlantic going in opposite directions in response to the collapse of the giant state. Europe may react instinctively by increasing the size of the state, turning reflexively to government to solve the problem of too much government. But the US, drawing on a different political tradition, may react by shrinking the state. Which of these solutions will prove most effective only time will tell. Both America and Europe are preparing to sail into terra incognita in their own different ways.
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The surprising thing is that anyone is prepared to buy Greek bonds at 8% yield. I would have thought 50% more reasonable.
“All that seems certain is that the piper will have to be paid.”
Yes, that inevitable.
Or another way of putting it (pg. 104):
Pay the high price now, or pay an even higher price later. Those are the only two choices.
Europe is starting to meet it reckoning day for the Euro experiment. It will probably delay the day (a few years *if* Europe can get away with a delay that long) & pay an even higher price later.
America is not yet ready to meet its day of reckoning for entitlements & Obamacare; however, that day too, is inevitable.
Our duty, is to be ready for when it arrives, try to make it arrive earlier & be ready to pay the piper the full price, before it get’s even higher (hopefully, having learnt our lesson).
The earlier we restructure & reform Obamacare (probably by Interstate compacts), the less painful it will be for everyone. Obama’s folly & our folly will probably cost at least $2 trillion dollars by the time the piper collects his fee.
Rule number one is the house never loses.
Ok, what does this do to US Treasuries?
lynndh asks: “Ok, what does this do to US Treasuries?
Long term, bad. It shows that government debt is a lot less secure than imagined. Once this is internalized we are going to see interest rates go up on U.S. treasuries.
We are basically in the process of seeing the dominos fall.
Iceland goes bankrupt … The current cracks started with Greece, next Ireland. Next up is Portugal; and already looking beyond it Spain … Which starts to threaten Germany: “Germany cannot keep paying for bail-outs without going bankrupt itself.”
The big domino is the United States. As long as we are on the path of 9% defecit spending per year, the day of reckoning edges ever closer … And even the United States dominio can be toppled…
To answer the question in much broader terms, we are at the end of the super-cycle of interest rates on the Treasuries. They have been going down since the 80′s (for the last 30 years), and sometime in the next few years, the super-cycle will reverse. Here is a graph of U.S. Treasures rate for the last 100 years. You can see 2 super cycles on that graph. As is pretty obvious U.S. treasure rates can’t go down much furthur … therefore they will either flat-line, or go up. In the long term, probably up.
Ok, what does this do to US Treasuries?
Indeed.
Can any of these countries actually be in worse shape than the US?
I’m very much afraid the only difference is the US Fed printing money to keep us afloat, which it can do because it is the Fed, and the US dollar is the international benchmark so there is no calling of our bluff. Yet. Nothing can float like this above the abyss forever. Can it?
–
Y’know, what it comes to is the real crisis point for capitalism. Was it always inevitable that we come to this, where politicians and bankers have been stealing from the pot, because they could, and now the pot itself has disappeared?
Egads here comes the reckoning
The bony finger beckoning
And laughing what-the-heckoning
While driving a black hearse
The prospect far too sickening
The grinning clock is tickening
Resistance now is thickening
And things are getting worse
Economies are stuttering
The cringing public muttering
Politicos are puttering
And reach for Deutschland’s purse
And down will come the EU dream
Not with a sigh but with a scream
The shining light now but a gleam
Death socialism’s curse
Sovereign defaults actually happen all the time. Governments possess the unique power to forcibly extract resources, and can leverage this power to borrow money without more conventional collateral. Eventually they overdo it and the people they govern suffer for years as their artificially high living standards come back to earth (“austerity”), but then everyone with living memory off the event passes on and the cycle repeats.
There will be years of pain, and there may be social instability in Europe. But for much of the world economic life will soon enough go on.
E @ 8: Sovereign defaults actually happen all the time
Sure, so do wars and depressions. As I said, perhaps it was all inevitable, and we should lay back and enjoy it.
But this might just be a big one, involving stuff we thought was fixed, which leads one to wonder how to go about fixing it. Just when you think the system is idiot-proof along comes an improved idiot.
I see the greatest uncertainty is that there is no way to know what is “normal” any more.
We had the Dot Com Bomb at the end of the 90′s, which left many emotionally invested in The New Economy feeling like they had been cheated. I recall hear a piece on the radio back then about a late 20-something who had been on the ground floor of an IPO that went up like a rocket and down just as fast. Instead of the tens of millions of dollars he theoretically had at one time, the failure of his Dot Com left him with a mere $500K. Poor chap, I thought, that’s just about what I had hoped to save up by scrimping and saving for over 25 years, at least before that idiot and others like him blew up Wall Street and took a good chunk of it. How did he end up with $500K by doing something that proved to be worthless and only by doing it for a whole 2 years or so?
The Real Estate Bubble was easy to see coming, at least where I live. But no doubt many people think that “They” stole their planned bright future flipping brand new houses for a 25% per year gain for “Their” own nefarious purposes.
And both the Dot Com IPO types and the House Flippers no doubt think that if they can just elect the right set of politicians, The Magic Will Return.
Given that we seem to get one Bubble after another, each bigger than the last, a situation I attribute to P.T. Barnum’s famous production rate observation having increased greatly, I have no idea what the New Normal is.
Celebrate O’Good McTimes:]
“….There’s a party going on right here
a celebration to last troughout the years.
So bring your good times and your laughter
too
we’re gonna celebrate your party with you !
Come on now
celebration
let’s all celebrate and have a good time
celebration
we go celebrate and have a good time.
It’s time to come together
it’s up to you
watch your pleasure
everyone around the world
come on……
celebrate good times
come on
let’s celebrate! Repeat
We’re gonna have a good time tonight
let’s celebrate
it’s alright
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GwjfUFyY6M
When the world implodes, I suppose there’ll be a lot of money to be made.
Of course the world never will really implode, barring another comet hitting the Yucatan Pennisula.
If the question is how do you play decline? If the question is how do you squeeze big profits from systemic losses? Then I don’t want to know you.
A confused man with blistered hands holding his hoe as he rakes his field wondering what went wrong and put him there is a fine man, and I’ll stand beside him, and arm him, before I’d lift a finger to the financiers.
I’ll have bansters and politicians swinging from every convenient tree, to start with. They’ve earned it. This is, though they duck the term post 2000, the “New Economy” and it’s entirely of their own creation. With all these synthetic financial deals they’ve bought planes and yachts for themselves for the light work of running an academia-backed swindle complete with bought politicians.
Never forget that they claimed they conquered risk. And that they claimed they conquered the business cycle. They did all this because of the precise and inscrutable nature of “modern finance”. You could not argue with them. Lord knows I tried, for one. They just knew better; they were the golden quants. They had the charts and the deploring line on what “everybody was talking about.”
They blew it up, predictable as rain. Their vaunted mastery of risk, which is the very thing that led us here MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT THAT, was of course an absolute joke.
Now, they are exposed as idiots if you ask me, but they’re well en-castled and they’re very clever, as they begin their rear-guard CYA moves.
Hang ‘em all. They are the ones that took all that expertly worked out risk, that risk that wasn’t even there according to their calculations, and those are the faces it should blow up upon.
Not you, not me, except for the no-doubt painful flak that we must bear for the systemic catastrophe they’ve wrought, but them. There is no reason whatsoever to socialize their idiot risk one more day.
Hang the banks.
Ok, high yield, high risk bonds are called what? Junk bonds? So now Western Civilization should be renamed Junk Bond civilization? Should I be amused? Did the Soviets ever issue junk bonds?
Junk Bond Ben goes international. After the collapse, he can get together with some German bankers and form a polka band to play county fairs. Junk Bond Ben and the Banker Boys.
W, the YouTube Direkt link has been closed.
the next guy in line behind Spain is France.
The collapse will come, despite everything, as a surprise. Michael Gerson at the Washington Post says that the Left is completely flummoxed at why things are going so contrary to plan.
Terms you never thought to see again — outside of those old Revolution Bookstore tracts — are back. Economic saboteurs, wreckers, capitalist roaders. These are responsible for the set backs of the Revolution, aka Hope and Change.
And can you blame them? Just as the President was touting his new engagement based foreign policy, a deficit-driven New Deal, carbon trading cap and trade and European-style health care and welfare every single one of these policies falls flat on its face. Gotta be sabotage.
Or maybe they got it wrong. But the puzzlement is basically there. A large segment of society will not be able to figure out the cause of the decline until the curtain literally rings down.
The beauty of a free society, without an all powerful government handing out favors, is that we would not have to care much about how much credit people are using. Say some company BankCardCo is loaning too much money to Mike. Mike can’t pay it back. Who cares, except BankCardCo and its stockholders? BankCardCo will be out of business soon, and its stockholders will be poorer, but it doesn’t affect me much.
Sure, I would prefer that BankCardCo had made better decisions, but that is their business. Almost all companies like BankCardCo will make good decisions, if they lack government backing.
The bug in the soup is that we do have an all powerful government, contrary to our Constitution, that hands out favors. They are willing to bail out BankCardCo, and did so before our eyes, using our money. Now, bad decisions are encouraged (moral hazard) by the political guarantees of the government. When BankCardCo’s lose money, the cry goes out that we have to save them (sniff, tears).
They are robbing us blind, under the guise that they are only taking the money of the other guy (the rich guy). Wake up. They are taking the future from us all and stuffing it into their pockets.
Our recession was promoted by collapsing home prices and mortgage losses, after an extended period of government providing easy money and guarantees to support Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and the entire banking system. The government is still doing this. The bad housing policy was designed, encouraged, and required by government, mostly by Democrats.
Here is what the guarantees mean: “Heads I win, tails you lose”. The government (politicians) made good on its guarantees with the bailouts. Motto: “Government – We’re the Solution”.
See → We Guarantee It – The Government Caused the Economic Crisis
Josh @ 9: “Just when you think the system is idiot-proof along comes an improved idiot.”
I’m currently living in Taiwan, where the econonomy is projected, after several years of struggle, to grow 9%+. There is construction everywhere, as there is in China. Much of the world – places as disparate as Germany, Brazil, and China – have come alive after the 2008 mess, while we continue to sink in the welfare-state quicksand. New technologies, both financial and IT, have generated new opportunities and, concurrently, new instabilities and dangers. Indeed, while the China-bubble meme has now been around for about seven years, it may nonetheless prove to be true. But remarkable progress, I think, is still the big picture. It is a pity that we in the West are in hunker-down mode, looking primarily to protect everyone’s government pension. The rest of the world is not going to wait. One need only spend a few weeks in the booming parts of East Asia to know this.
What is striking about the global economy now is that it seems to be decoupling from the US. During the 1990s turmoil, it was the robust US economy that saved the world. Now, we are in the dumps and yet much of the world (much of Europe and Japan excepted) seems not to care. Is this just an anomaly, to be remedied once the DC Keynesian madness ends, or are we witnessing a permanent change, where the global economy learns to prosper without us?
Cowboy #12:
Thanks for mentioning that. The Clintonistas did claim in the 90’s that they had conquered the business cycle. As it was, I shuddered when I heard that. Shoulda just bought gold. And ammo.
And note that these were the very same people who implemented the new, Super-CRA lending practices and told AGI that getting into trading was a great idea, sure they would approve it.
The collapse will come, despite everything, as a surprise.
Yah, shocked to find gambling going on in this establishment.
Y’know, I tried that famous line from Casablanca on a woman at work the other day, relating to something on our project … and though she’s not as young as she used to be, she didn’t seem to be familiar with it. Sigh. Those who do not learn from Hollywood history, are doomed to repeat it.
Was T. S. Eliot Irish?:
“Between the idea
And the reality
Between the motion
And the act
Falls the shadow.”
Or maybe P.J. O’Rourke, he’s Irish-American:
“Giving power and money to politicians is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenagers.”
The Old and their policians have borrowed against the production of The Young and have spent it for votes or pocketed the money. They will wave pieces of paper at the Young calling for perfectly legal, high taxes on them to pay off that debt. This will be presented as an unfortunate necessity. So sorry.
The Young will be told that this is the rule of law, and they are bound by it. Sometimes, The Young will be told that they can collect from their children in turn. The Young will be slaves to the Old, under the suggestion that they too can enslave their Young.
If the Young have any sense at all, they will tear up those pieces of paper in contempt for the Old who decided to enslave them. It is bad enough that politicians levy taxes to pay for their schemes. It is much much worse that politicians would borrow everying they could from gullible “bond buyers”. These bond buyers cared not at all about what the government would do with the money. They relied only on the raw power of the government to repay them by collecting those resources from the populace, by force, no matter what.
The Young should have contempt for the government and “the Law” that arranged this enslavement. They should break the Ponzi scheme. They should blame the politicians and government that pretended to plan for their future, but instead spent it all, expecting the Young to supply what was never saved.
Make the bondholders pay, not the populus. The Young should tear up those pieces of paper issued by a corrupt government. The result will be a loss of trust in “sovereign debt”, and governments will not be able to borrow so easily in the future. This is a great outcome. The populace can renounce a debt that was incurred by thieves, and arrange at the same time for future politicians to be less able to carry out the same thievery.
16. wretchard
Terms you never thought to see again — outside of those old Revolution Bookstore tracts — are back. Economic saboteurs, wreckers, capitalist roaders. These are responsible for the set backs of the Revolution, aka Hope and Change.
It’s just astonishing to see the amount of projection the Left uses.
Back during the Bush administration, when we were fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan and the economy seemed to be doing well (though with hindsight it was not as healthy as it appeared), Rush Limbaugh regularly said that the Democrats wanted America to fail, since that was their only path to power. They wanted to have a military quagmire and economic misery. I think he was right about that.
Today the Republicans don’t want America to fail; they want the Marxist Democrats to fail. There’s a big difference.
The Young should tear up those pieces of paper issued by a corrupt government.
Yet the demographic with the second largest support for the Community-Organizer-in-Chief are “the Young”, those 29 and younger. They’re some of the biggest supporters of a “corrupt government”, and want more of it and faster, too. So it’s hard to work up much sympathy for them from the rest us.
As it was, I shuddered when I heard that. Shoulda just bought gold. And ammo.
Ammo that wouldn’t have got much use in the 15 years since, right? And who do you intend to use that ammo on? Gonna declare yourself commisar of your neighborhood and force your neighbors at gunpoint to do things your way?
(How I hate such stupid talk about “ammo” which only gives the Progressive Left more ammunition to label the rest of us as “wing-nuts.”)
Governments are already tearing up their own pieces of paper. China’s money supply increased by 40% of GDP. There is QE II to consider. The Great Inflation represents slow motion default. Both creditors and debtors need it, which is a somewhat unusual state of affairs.
The most important effects will be social and psychological. Interest rates will go through the roof. “Discount rates” on investment will follow. The result will be that people will more heavily discount the future in favor of the present. Historically, this causes tremendous social stress and even millenarian movements as people come to the belief that there IS no future.
Raoul:
I know someone who bought a bunch of 556MM for $75 a case not that many years ago. The same stuff now goes for over $400. Wish any of my mutual funds did even 1/3 that that well. Is that stupid?
Walt @ 7
I absolutely love your poem!
Are you a published poet? (I mean, besides on Belmont Club!)
The problem is that the bondholders are, well, everyone. One of the reason that so many investors were driven to high risk investments such as repackaged subprime loans is that the returns on safer investments were somehow not thought adequate. By the turn of the millennium American investors were expecting unreasonable rates of return – and in the case of many state pension funds, were legally obligated to find them. Well, the only place you are going to find such high promised rates of return is in risky investments.
One of the much remarked upon social developments of the past twenty years is that now a majority of Americans are stockholders. That’s great, except the expectations didn’t change as the pool broadened. A couple dozen mutual funds can beat the market every year; 60% of the population can’t beat the market every year. The math just doesn’t work.
I don’t mean in any way to minimize the blame to be held by corrupt regulators and greedy bankers (though that is doubtless overstated – the bankers I know are VERY generous with their time and treasure). But at the macro level there’s more to the story. Namely that a large portion of the population wanted something for nothing.
I hope someone is placing a library of crucial books in a very safe place against the coming chaos.
Think about how recently our world did not have germ theory, the calculus, solid understanding of human anatomy, the laws of thermodynamics, basic chemistry, printing presses, steam power, stratocasters & Bassman amps, 110 outlets to power’em, tube radios, telephones, paved roads, metal lathes & milling machines, arc welding, ballpoint pens, soda pop, Novocaine, smokeless powder, micrometers, xerography, cheap aluminum metal, polymers, highways, muscle cars, satellites, prosthetic limbs, X-rays, insulin, you-name-it. And I haven’t even gotten to all the stuff that comes from the merging of solid state electronics and programmable digital computers…
The Progressivists are itching to apply the Bed of Procrustus to everyone, lopping off whatever is greater than will fit, and popping limbs out of their sockets to stretch anyone of insufficient stature. How many of those losers know how to set the teeth on a handsaw, or prepare the soil for a family garden, protect a vegetable’s roots from gnawing underground critters, care for ungulates and collect wool and milk, dress a slaughtered animal, card and spin wool, make a felted slipper, or even sharpen a tool or make a fire without lighter fluid and a Bic?
It’s not just the Fistula-in-Chief and her husband dismantling the fine watches all in a row. There’s an army of Luddites in line behind them, twitching their hammers and wrecker bars at the prospect of demolishing the system.
All in the name of their utterly discredited Marxist/Socialist delusion.
Europe, both as a trans-national political unit and as individual sovereign nations in Westphalian terms, is showing the sort of cracks that tell when a dam has exceeded its design limits. The weight and pressure might be relieved before a sudden catastrophic failure, but ONLY if (a) there are mechanisms, such as relief valves or spillways to allow fast drainage, AND (b) people who understand the conditions and their consequences, who are in a position to act, have the authority, and finally, the presence of mind to act before it’s too late.
We’ve laughed at cartoon depictions of a dufus sitting on the branch outboard of the cut he’s sawing. When the cut is done, we know the dufus will have that moment of awakening that he’s about to experience a consequence of his own action, without much prospect for rescue. We’re about to see that played out on a planetary scale.
When we consider the issue of abortion, people can argue till they fall over dead whether the fetus is ensouled at the moment of conception, or even whether humans are spiritual beings at all.
The underlying question that few people will acknowledge is that reality is what it is.
Much of the damage we do follows from our infantile belief that all we have to do is change the words we chose to name or define reality, and the universe and all its behaviors are obliged to conform to what we want, because… well, because we REALLY REALLY WANT EVERYTHING TO BE THE WAY WE WANT.
Perhaps the biggest mistake we’ve made as a civilization is a thoughtless shortage of Thorazine and straight-jackets in assorted sizes.
I hear you, Solovyov, but there comes a time to consider fraud. The masses may have made impossible demands, and I’d agree that they have, but all that is irrelvant in the face of fraud.
A good friend of mine is always coying me from the position of the Platonist, the Philosopher King. The question is simply where is justice? In the easy world, yes, easy world, of the philospher king the answer is that justice resides at the end of kingly pronouncements.
But, is that true? Let’s say the king outlawed fraud, for the obvious reasons. But yet fraud happened anyway, and on the massive scale that to punish the fraud equates to punishing the innocents.
So, what in the hell do you do, Philosopher King? Do you make excuses and try to patch it along, or do you pursue justice?
Is justice, in the end, something too costly to pursue?
I’d argue that it’s not. Only a philospher-king could cook up something otherwise.
#29 Mad Fiddler
Perhaps the biggest mistake we’ve made as a civilization is a thoughtless shortage of Thorazine and straight-jackets in assorted sizes.
Good God Mad Fiddler–even suggesting that the Ruling Class could do wrong or that they need to be restrained is Thought Crime. Please report to room 101 at the Ministry of Love Building no later than twelve noon on the following day. If you aren’t there the official HELPERs will be dispatched to expedite your path to true mental hygiene via ObamaCare.
The Government Loves you, you little meaningless bug. We do.
27/amit green’s wife
Thanks for liking the verse. No, I am not a published poet. A few things here and there, but no poetry. Unless you own a magazine?
Walt
Dear Mr. T Cobb,
This is Mad Fiddler’s mother. He has been sent to bed for his naughtiness.
I thought I taught him not to speak ill of his betters.
Well, it’s the dangers of unsupervised computers connected to the great wide world, in the privacy of a young boy’s room. From now on that thing is going to sit in the LIVING ROOM, where his activities can be monitored.
You simply would not believe some of the things I’ve found stored on his hard drive.
I’m seriously considering sending him to a deprogramming camp.
Nothing but bologna, broccoli and mild tea, nothing to read but the Good Book, and all swimming segregated by gender.
I blame it on the television. Lord knows, I can’t keep him from watching at other people’s homes, or at the Sears-Roebuck.
God Bless!
Projection.
Socialists spent 60 years or more pretending to participate in complicated conspiracies complete with secret code names and long unreadable tracts on how to mobilize the masses to wreck the economy. Now they are suddenly responsible for unemployment and inflation and productivity and war and and they need someone to blame when it is blindingly apparent that they lack the aptitude to manage a two car funeral. So they are busy accusing the Republicans of doing what the Socialists claimed that they were doing all the time.
The Republicans should declare that General Motors and Chrysler are stolen property and that anyone who claims to hold equity in them under current arrangements should have no expectation of surety that their claim will be recognized.
Also, refuse to increase the Federal Debt ceiling. Just say “No.”
#33 Mad Fiddler’s Mother
Normally dysfunctionality such as exhibited by your child is caused by the environment. That means–you. In the name of social justice and with the incidental benefit of putting more people on our database of those who need our services you too need to report to room 101 of the Ministry of Love no later than one day from this notification.
Have a nice day.
Meanwhile, one naturalized American Mohamed Osman Mohamud is arrested in Oregon in a police sting involving an attemped bombing of a Christmas tree lighting ceremony.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=12253987
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11852953
Excuse me, but this is not bailing out Ireland, it’s bailing out the German, French and UK counterparties.
Just like the USG didn’t bail out Bear Sterans or AIG, it bailed out the counterparties.
If it was bailing out Ireland, the Irish would be happy–as it is, they understand that they are looking at decades of austerity to pay what their idiot banks owe to German, Frencha nd UK idiot banks, and ask, “Why?”
A question we Americans should have asked and still be asking about “saving” AIG, Fannie/Freddie, and GM/Chrysler, as well as Fed policy ever since–why are all of us paying to bail out a handful of rich bankers who made big, idiot mistakes?
And in that vein, when austerity hits the USA, it will be more than just the “American Left” who are unhappy… the Tea Partiers will go from a fairly polite bunch of rerformers to something much angrier when they see the next deal to save Goldman and JPM go down.
Meanwhile, before you go to bed tonight, give thanks to “Deadf007″ and remember, there are good guys out there too.
#10 RWE – The late 20-something of whom you speak was no idiot. Any more than were the mortgage brokers who gained large commissions by telling their clients to lie on application forms, or the bank officials who gained large bonuses by failing to properly check such applications, or the merchant bankers who gained large bonuses by buying “securities” based on such loans.
No, none of them were idiots. After all, they are the ones sitting on huge nest-eggs gained by cheating the public (perfectly legally, of course; not surprising as their colleagues made the laws).
No, not idiots. The word you are looking for is “crook”.
[The 'haircut' will mean] investors who loaned money to sovereign nations could only collect a fraction of their debts. Practically, Germany wants private investors to face…debt payment restructure measures.
That’s a very Teutonic, leaden-footed non-solution. Nearly all big buys of government and bank bonds are the result of decisions by investment committees at financial institutions, most of whom owe a fiduciary duty to their investors; those who don’t have big fat bonuses on the line. ‘We’re just a dumb as everyone else’ is a perilous defense these days. German regulators/politicians may be able to strongarm their own banks, insurance companies, pension funds, etc., as may the French with their own institutions, but there’s zero chance of getting investor money from outside the e-zone. Without it, the crisis simply compounds and feeds on itself.
Also, it won’t be lost on the Spanish that they’ve done well out of the EU and now need the euro like they need a hole in the head. Spain has powerful linguistic and cultural ties with the newly emerging economies of South America, and massive opportunities loom not just for the biggest ‘nuevos conquistadores’ — world-class companies like Banco Santander, Telefonica, BBVA and maybe a dozen others — but also for unemployed young Spaniards with flair and a sense of adventure. Unemployment among Spanish under-25s is now well over forty percent. Balance all that against the lack of cultural identity with, say, Slovakia or Croatia or Latvia — and the smart move will be obvious to all apart from demoralized Eurosocialist apparatchiks mired in denial.
30 Cowboy – “Is justice, in the end, something too costly to pursue?”
That’s the million (or should I say multi-trillion) dollar question. It’s way too costly not to pursue it, but that’s what will happen.
Bottom line here, there are a lot of people here and elsewhere who have lived a solid life – they don’t get in over their heads, they pay their debts, try to put away a little money for their declining years. These people (I consider myself one) are and have been the suckers in this system, and now we’re being told that we have to make the sacrifices so that the players do not.
Someone said that “when you’re not sure who the mark is during a scam, chances are it’s you”. A lot of people have figured that out, and many more will once this whole thing really falls apart.
In the past we’ve had corruption and pure incompetance, but there was always at least the facade that some of the major players would pay some penalty. They don’t even pretend anymore. Instead they put those people in charge.
Recovering from this will require great sacrifice, but the only ones who will be asked to do that are the American worker and taxpayer. I’d suspect that they know this, and will refuse to play the game. Then it’s anyones guess what happens next. I’d guess the bondholders will consider themselves lucky if people just move low enough to give them a haircut.
The fact is, anyone who is even passingly familiar with current events has learned at least one thing very clearly – the laws apply to us, but not to them. There’s no effort to hide that.
Unless you’re someone as stupid as Madoff, who couldn’t figure out a legal way to defraud people, and picked many prominent people as his victims, you’re home free.
Fletcher #39:
Or the ones who used their houses as ATMs, buying big screen TV’s and sports cars and are now underwater in their homes, in default, and are still living in them, paying nothing because the banks are so flummoxed over the situation, so desparate to avoid admitting their huge mistakes, so incompetent in the foreclosure process, so happy to have someone living in the place keeping the grass cut, and so hopeful that it will all magically turn around.
Solovyov #28:
Don’t forget taxes. There are huge tax advantages to flipping houses instead of investing in useful industrial capability. Just as there are huge tax advantages for companies building factories in Red China instead of the USA.
Any reference to Matt Yglesias conjures up the image of a little man in an oversize cap, which is itself overwhelmed by a big red star, stuffing little old ladies with canvas handbags and elderly men with well worn violin cases into a cattle car.
My imagined Matt Yglesias turns frequently toward his supervisor for assurance that his enthusiasm for the job is being noticed.
…did little Fiddler get kicked out of ALL the Sears Roebucks, or just the one?
Cowboy #30
“The masses may have made impossible demands, and I’d agree that they have, but all that is irrelevant in the face of fraud.”
“Irrelevant”? Um, no. “Essential” is the right word.
The “impossible demands” are what made the fraud you decry possible.
It cannot be stated to often or strongly – the mess we are in is an organic, ground-up problem, whose ultimate cause is a society-wide revolution of forever rising expectations and sense of entitlement which are divorced from historical reality and context. In the absence of this, the greedheads in government and the financial industry would have had no fertile ground for their plots to root and grow. Get the people to resume having the more realistic expectations out of life, in terms of material standard of living, that they had before about 1930 or so, and these hucksters will fade away.
Throw as many people at the top in jail as you want. I’ll applaud, they deserve it. But do that, and don’t address the entrenched attitudinal problem of the public at large and their ridiculous, unreasonable, and dangerous material expectations, and we’ll be right back where we are in less than ten years.
nmu/45; …but that’s the spiritual argument, the Dostoevsky maxim ‘without God, all is permitted’. We can’t start there, that’s in side individual human hearts. Where we can start is with enforcing the laws, that is to say, punishing the crimes on the books.
For example, the SEC/FBI raids on the hedge funds is all well and good, providing we don’t end up with such gossamer insider trading defs that everybody gets afraid to say ‘good morning’ to another trader unless he knows how he voted in the last election.
BUT, what about that Mount St Helens explosion of naked shorting against the TooBigToFails in September 2008? These crooked managements were deliberately murdering their own institutions’ stock prices, for all the reasons you can imagine, and the government HAS the trading tapes, and the evidence of the illegal fraud sonuvabitch naked shorting IS sitting in the Depository Trust & Clearing Corporation (that is if that mystery chunk of TARP hasn’t covered it) –but, like the criminal referrals missing in all five of Citi’s bailouts going back to the late 90s, it’s the biggest naked-ass crooked mobster racket rip-off scheme since Nimrod built the Tower, and it appears that from now to evermore all its gonna do is make the (*crickets*) sound.
BL #46
“We can’t start there, that’s inside individual human hearts.”
Perhaps so. But we MUST end there.
i think you’re right –and we need not wait, we can start now, with: we must have faith we’ll end there –
But if we just don’t have that faith?
Well, we can make a line of logic, that to openly relinquish hope is to accept defeat –and yet on evidence such as Nov 02, we are not defeated, and so to accept defeat would be a lie, and a far greater lie than the little private provisional lie, that we’ll resort to behaviorism, and ‘fake it ’til we make it’. I mean, couldn’t hoit –
no mo uro, you are selling warmed over Reich as in “The Greening of America”. Prolly the worst book ever foisted off on the American public. The idea was that everybody should get used to doing with less. Behind the lies, was the fact that the little guy needs to get by with less so the elites can have more.
The concept expressed in Greening of America is extremely un-American.
http://www.superseventies.com/greening.html
Above is an excerpt of the intro, I think. Thankfully, that book has been out of print for ages. America has ALWAYS rejected your argument. That is why America exists. People that reject the argument that they need less so the elites can have more needed a place to call home.
So here we are.
Greed is an ESSENTIAL part of the human condition. That is one flaw in the logic of you and Charles. The other is that in America everyman has the right to decide what is enough and what is too much. Only for themselves. Nobody in America has the right to decide what is enough for someone else. Once that right is gone, once a committee is deciding what is enough and how much is too much there is no more America.
Wouldn’t it be easier to just see if you and Reich can get a ride with Alec Baldwin?
No mo euro, guys like you laughed at Columbus, scoffed at the Wright Brothers and thought Reagan was a nutter. It turns out that all the above are recorded in history as geniuses, while the masses of naysayers are not recorded at all.
So why don’t you get on the side of history? Let Reich, Baldwin and the rest of the lemmings charge off to the sea without you. ALL problems have solutions. ALL solutions create more problems. Hiding under your bed never helps. Be part of the solution and look forward to the next problem.
The solution to Western Civilization’s economic woes is more employment. Our economy has been too successful, we have more young men then jobs. So we need a visionary to create work for those young men.
Two things spring to mind. There is the traditional war, with a crusade being the best option. Then there is the equally traditional option of sending the young men off to the frontier. Today’s frontier is Mars, but that is just a technical problem. One that is mostly solved. Sending an expedition to Mars is not that different from sending Columbus to the New world given the relative levels of technology. People today forget how much Columbus stretched the envelope of technology back in the tail end of the 15th century.
Alec Baldwin has more chins that a Chinese telephone directory
I read No Mo Uro as saying wee need to be responsible enough as individuals not to take the bait which the trap is set with.
If you go to an event or on a holiday where the drinks are free, chances are that most people commenting here will imbibe a little, go places and do things and meet people that they’ll remember with a smile.
What we are looking at now are the crowd who didn’t moderate their intake, they’re the ones with memories of headaches, and the proprietors are looking at a smashed up venue with mess on the floor.
Too many people (here) in Ireland, took the cheap loans which were on offer.
Money was far too cheap.
People took on mortgages of 5 times earnings and beyond, they then borrowed to buy “investment properties” whether in the arse end of County Leitrim (which vies with West Meath as one of Ireland’s least desirable counties), or in Bulgaria, they bought fancy cars…
The Republic charges 20% vehicle registration tax on the full selling price of cars – so you pay 20% tax on 21% VAT. Europe told them years ago that the tax was unlawful – but it’s only little people who have to obey the law, and like the 40% stamp duty on housing, the income has now dried up.
As individuals we can refuse to be drawn into the falsely cheap money trap, we can also try to keep below the radar of the various bureaucracies who try to run all businesses, and who are currently justifying their €100K+ salaries by riding round finding every little licence and permit fee to charge productive businesses for (they tend to show up in twos and threes, all in separate cars so they can all claim mileage allowances, and they come about 10:30 am or 3 pm so they can either lie in bed or get home early.
Yoyo interest rates were far too low (in order to help German reunification)but that is no excuse for borrowing foolishly.
s @ 50: Sending an expedition to Mars is not that different from sending Columbus to the New world given the relative levels of technology. People today forget how much Columbus stretched the envelope of technology back in the tail end of the 15th century.
Say what? A fifteenth century explorer could build a new ship with little more than a couple of steel axes and knives (and might do without them in a pinch), a crew of 100 and six months, and sail that same crew across the ocean. The technology had not moved much in a thousand years. The educated had known the Earth to be round for two millenia, at least. We have yet to move a single living human to Mars much less return him intact. We could probably do it by spending $100b or so over ten years: one or two men, who would probably be in very poor health on return. In Columbus time they did not even understand scurvy, but the radiation and lack of gravity between here and Mars, at the slow rate and in the small and flimsy craft that we can construct today to make the trip, are problems we are just as ignorant of. But an equivalence of ignorance is not an equivalence of capabilities.
How on Earth (!) did we get on this? Oh, you were taking issue with nmu’s crisis of rising expectations, calling him a naysayer. Well, I can’t really follow that to tell the truth, though I don’t much agree with nmu’s point either. Americans have had a crisis of rising expectations since 1776 or maybe a century before, it’s nothing new, part of the American character, and overall a good one I think. So do modern Americans somehow have an inflated or different view? I don’t think so. The “crisis” that nmu sees is (perhaps) in a modern thinking that someone else will provide. That may be wrong, but equally wrong is thinking that we will just trip across it (progress) so that green tech or zero-point energy will solve all of our social, economic, and technological problems with the snap of our fingers.
The problem, I think, is when government becomes obsessed with outcomes. Ability and will are spread wide on the Gaussian curve where desire seems to match up on the high scale. The natural order would prescribe that desire be governed by the will and ability of the individual (with a sprinkling of luck) and the outcomes be as diverse as the Gaussian distribution itself. Modern technology puts sustenance much closer at hand and even welfare recipients go without a pool and a yacht club membership but have no problem affording a big screen TV, a cell phone, and a private car. Making a ‘living’ just 150 years ago was an uncertain thing and the life expectancy reflected that. The natural order was preserved because the idea of equal outcomes was itself unthinkable. Now we have a government whose ‘political wares’ are designed to garner votes while helping those who would not help themselves. The pool of existing low income adherents are not enough to fuel government expansionist policies so new adherents need to be imported or created out to the whole cloth of new protected classes like gays and Muslim’s.
The recent financial tumults will only be corrected when government itself scales back its overarching ambitions and lives within more humble means like the private sector has already instinctively done.
I think most of Europe will take the jump to the left.
I was listening to some lefty yesterday saying:
“We should make the economy work for us, instead of us having to work for the economy.”
Totally meaningless, but perhaps it sounds appealing to the 50% of the voters with below average reasoning abilities.
we’ve seen and heard all of the left’s slogans before, whether in economics, gun control, global warming/climate disruption:
All the experts agree that…
All right thinking people…
we can’t wait around debating this, the situation is much too urgent, we must act decisively…
No you can’t see the expert’s reports / evidence, you wouldn’t understand…
We must all make sacrifices…
It’s for the greater good / the Children / all of our futures…
everything is evidence for (cold winters prove global warming…)
It was inevitable…
We had to act to prevent…
The alternative is far worse…
Too many people believe the same techniques of persuasion / manipulation, time after time, and the symbiosis of .gov keeping competition out of the media market in return for favourable coverage, keeps the alternatives from being seen or heard here.
What was it Mencken said about
“The art of Practical politics consists of keeping the electorate alarmed and hence clamorous to be lead to safety”?
Just bait with artificially low cost money from a state owned central bank, and the cycle is a self perpetuating amplified boom and bust.
No mo euro,
“the mess we are in is an organic, ground-up problem, whose ultimate cause is a society-wide revolution of forever rising expectations and sense of entitlement which are divorced from historical reality and context.”
There is definitely some truth to that argument. We all know of people who refi’d their home to get that new boat, vacation condo, car, TV, the shining new kitchen, whatever. However, that argument should not be applied in general. The middle class has been taking it on the chin for a generation. The same people responsible for the financial meltdown have been pushing unnecessary government mandates, restrictions, requirements, laws and ordinances for decades that have caused the cost of living for families to be driven way up, and the job opportunities and income for families to be driven way down. As a result, most people working today, including the much maligned Boomers, are working much longer and harder than their parents generation for much less. Many of those people refinanced just to keep afloat in a world of declining fortunes. It’s easy to say that those people should have cut back, but when the cost of basics like housing, energy, transportation, education, healthcare, and insurance are rising rapidly as they are when incomes are not; it’s easier said than done.
Stoicheion is right; all problems have solutions. If our government would only reasonably enforce existing laws equally, spend reasonably, tax reasonably and regulate reasonably, you would probably be surprised to see a miraculous recovery in a very short period of time. At the end of WWII, our government was saddled with greater debt in percentage terms to GDP than we have now. But back then, there were tremendous opportunities for growth and we had a government that didn’t get in the way every time you turned around.
Ain’t gonna bump no mo’, no big fat Euro….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrqOG9U6VyU
Marty
“Excuse me, but this is not bailing out Ireland, it’s bailing out the German, French and UK counterparties”
uh no, French banks have fast nuthin there, but yours have more !
Just got a letter from the local magistrate today. It’s about my 20 year old daughter’s speeding ticket. Apparently, she was going a whopping 31 mph over the speed limit. I remember the day well, she woke up already late for work. She must have been flying to get there as soon as possible.
So should I give her the lecture? You know, the early to bed, early to rise stuff? The one about responsibility and reliability. About how she needs to get herself out of bed to get to her job on time and safely. Work hard, be reliable, and all that.
Work hard, young lady, at your job and be glad of the pittance you make in this high unemployment economy, err, uhhh. I mean, work hard, get to work on time, so you can keep your job. We need your hard earned taxes to pay off the profligate older generation, uhh, ummmmm. Work hard so you can be a wage slave, never know when we’ll need to bail out the great financiers again. Gotta keep ‘em in rolexes and lear jets, you know. Stay in school, study hard, get a good education and make good grades! And then you can graduate and get a job that you don’t need a college education for, hmmmm. What I mean is, you too, can be like your mother, in the library at 5 pm when the lights are being turned off…. And then find yourself in a University job where the janitors make more money than you! Because that’s political correctness and union power. I mean, all that hard work, that vaunted reliability, after a few years of that and you can buy an overpriced 940 square foot dump, I mean house, for a cool half million bucks. Why it’s a steal! But who’s doing the stealing? Hmmmmmm….
What’s the point of it? What is the point of honest hard work? What is the point of saving, only to have profligates bailed out or have their ridiculous debts inflated away? Why be an ant, when you can be a grasshopper?
I will tell her that no job is worth her risking her life for. It isn’t worth it to rush to a job at a place that would just as soon dump her like a used tissue if the profit margin required it. But should I tell her to sleep in next weekend?
Here kid, this is your life. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hM3jzlyNIpc Get used to it.
all problems have solutions.
Do tell.
So, in the town where the barber shaves all and only those who don’t shave themselves, does he shave himself?
Me, I can’t even decide what to have for lunch, especially given my desire (boosted post-Thanksgiving) to lose a few pounds.
So, sure, problems have solutions. We have more solutions than problems. Obamacare is the solution, to … um, what was the problem again?
42.
no more uro, can it be that justice is not worth persuing? I’d expected resistance to come in the form of “the cost of justice is too high”, yet you seem to indicate it’s a pointless task altogether.
The money trust has to be broken up. The multitude does not understand the shadowy world of the vampire squids and intentionally occluded inner world of finance. But they do understand fraud and racketeering, which sit there on the ground as a ready tool to any law enforcement effort willing to clean house. Wall Street exposed to the light of day will wither.
You are right that such action by itself is not a magic pill that will right all our ills. People will yet have desires and demands contrary to their long-term interest. And they will be led by the nose to stoke them.
Every incentive to discourage saving for retirement, or any purpose at all, will yet exist. Social Security and pension fund bailouts will still have their hawkers. The cost of housing got people down? Legions of GSA mortgage barkers will still roam the street with ready bags of money. The high cost of health insurance and college tuitions weigh in on people? There’s a political party eager to play sugar daddy and take control of functions. Rising energy and food costs have you in a funk? Well there’s a ready planner to marshall and to tailor broad central policy for every conceivable local need. You’re concerned about a dying planet, you say? Ready made crusaders against industrial development and so forth even down to household emissions chomp at the bit!
All that is not going to get fixed without either the entire system blowing up (as it will if left on this course) or without strong leadership across the board on all these issues. The money trust has done us the huge favor of suggesting itself as a good place to start undoing all the policies of diminishing returns Western societies have charted out for themselves.
Such broad reversal must be done, or it will be done for us the hard way, by the inevitable fruit of these disjoint policies.
Gustave Le Bon* said it first:
“*The Psychology of Socialism 1899 … “Socialism is in fact nothing but the religion of the Stomach.”
Brendan Smith, that’s “Brendan “let them eat cheese” Smith”, agrees:
“As Ireland’s punch-drunk government this month started to reel under the severity of the budget cuts it needs to bail out its bust banking system, it sought to raise national spirits – announcing cheese giveaways, from surplus European Union stocks.
Irish citizens may already have harboured few doubts about the political bankruptcy of the long-ruling Fianna Fáil party, but any that lingered were blown away in gales of popular scorn as the agriculture minister was rebranded as Brendan “let them eat cheese” Smith.”
“Writing on the wall”
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/fa24c430-f998-11df-9e29-00144feab49a.html
*Gustave Le Bon:
“GUSTAVE LE BON and the Crowd ***
The Psychology of Socialism 1899 … ” Socialism is in fact nothing but the religion of the Stomach.”
http://www.fulltable.com/crowd/07.htm
http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/archives/015444.html
stoicheon:
“No mo euro, guys like you laughed at Columbus, scoffed at the Wright Brothers and thought Reagan was a nutter. . . Let Reich, Baldwin and the rest of the lemmings charge off to the sea without you. “
Oh for Pete’s sake. If you’re going to do ridiculous hyperbolic illogical ad hominem, do it right, please. You need to accuse me of having memorized Mein Kampf, revering Marx and Engels, kicking dogs, and having a protrait of Mao in my garage to get the effect just right.
Yup, that’s no mo uro, all right. Just another centrally controlled government lover, a commie and a fascist who wants to use the government to decrease Stoicheon’s pay to what no mo uro arbitrarily thinks it should be.
Because, after all, those positions and associations are equally unfounded and inaccurate as the ones you accuse me of.
Guys like me. Meh.
Stoicheon:
“Greed is an ESSENTIAL part of the human condition. That is one flaw in the logic of you and Charles. The other is that in America everyman has the right to decide what is enough and what is too much. Only for themselves. Nobody in America has the right to decide what is enough for someone else. Once that right is gone, once a committee is deciding what is enough and how much is too much there is no more America.”
The profit motive is important for a dynamic society? Why, I never knew that before today!
Listen up. Your patronizing and banty-strutting faux self-righteousness doesn’t help your cause, whatever that cause might be. I believe the expression is “you would teach your grandmother to suck eggs”.
I write that people’s pay scales and material expectations for a given job must be honestly reconciled by forces of the market, and you morph my words into a call for a government committee to set people’s pay. I’m not sure of the exact psych term for this (transference or projection) but I know that this behavior allows some insight into the motivation and thoughts of the patient.
I point out the fact that the material expectations of the public have gone way out of whack with any historical MARKET context and that this is a problem and you accuse me of essentially being a communist.
I tell you what. I voted for Reagan and I can say that he was the best president in my lifetime. I can guarantee that if he (or the Wright Bros., or even Columbus) were reading this thread, it would be your hysterical unfounded stuff they would find wanting, and mine that was the sensible approach.
Stoicheon:
“The solution to Western Civilization’s economic woes is more employment. “
Wrong. An accurate sentence on this subject would read “The solution to Western Civilization’s employment problem is a populace with realistic lifestyle expectations for the work they do.”
Stoicheon:
“In America every man has the right to decide what is enough and what is too much. Only for themselves.”
You miss the point entirely. I can decide that “just enough” is a fifteen room mansion on a thousand acres with a helipad and a staff of fifteen, but if I’m an auto mechanic or a public school teacher or own an appliance store I’m not going to have those things. Why? Because what I do for work does not justify the income needed to purchase those things. That is an extreme example, but the principle applies across the board. You can go through life thinking that your job justifies you living the lifestyles of the rich and famous, but unless the people who purchase your good or service think it’s worth that much, they’ll never pay you that.
If you do a job that doesn’t require that much skill, or one that does but for which there are lots of other trained individuals, the laws of economics dictate that you will not get paid that much. You’ll be middle class, at best. Not well off. We don’t need a committee or appointee for that, the market will take care of it.
If you want more money, there are ways to do it. Take a second job. Change professions and go into something that people value and that not many folks can or want to do. Build or invent something. Plus, there will always be individuals who are smarter, stronger, or shrewder or more talented than normal. They’ll have more money than us reg’lar folks. It doesn’t bother me but it’s obvious the idea drives YOU to distraction.
Our grandparents were wiser than us by far. They had lifestyle expectations that were in line with the true value of their efforts. And they found ways to have meaning in life that didn’t involve accumulating stuff and purchasing passive entertainment. We could learn a lot from their ways.
Raoul #24 –And who do you intend to use that ammo on? Gonna declare yourself commisar of your neighborhood and force your neighbors at gunpoint to do things your way?
(How I hate such stupid talk about “ammo” which only gives the Progressive Left more ammunition to label the rest of us as “wing-nuts.”)
One of the persistent themes of this blog over the last several years is the very real possibility of economic and societal collapse, Raoul. Here’s a paragraph from Wiki pertinent to that, as well as the need for “ammo:”
Korean armed resistance in the Los Angeles riots began on April 29, 1992 after the Rodney King verdict. Korean businesses were the primary target of looters in the 1992 Los Angeles riots, as Los Angeles holds the nation’s largest Korean-American community of 145,000. Korean Merchants suffered five shop owners killed, 2,100 businesses burned, more than $350 million in damage, or nearly half the city’s total from the riots.[1] During the riots many Koreans from throughout the area rushed to Koreatown, spearheaded by a small group of Korean veterans with previous military service, heeding a call put out on Korean-language radio stations for volunteer security guards.[2] From the rooftop a group of Koreans armed with shotguns and automatic weapons peered onto the smoky streets. Scores of others, carrying steel pipes, pistols and automatic rifles, paced through the darkened parking lot in anticipation of an assault by looters.
Cowboy #61:
“The money trust has to be broken up.”
Why is this an either or?
Your thing, and mine….why can’t we do both?
Josh #60:
“all problems have solutions? . . . Do tell.”
Exactly.
Maybe my Christian upbringing has hamstrung me mentally, but I was taught that there are some problems without a solution. And that thinking otherwise would get me into big trouble some day.
Elby #59:
Just tell her all that hard work and high taxes she is staggering under are all “for the children” the way it was when she was growing up.
After all, that approach has worked for the Left for decades. All those right-wing complaints about teachers not teaching useful knowledge and with no consequences thereto, the palatial edifices of colleges, and dozens of social programs, were simply mean-spirited attacks on government initiatives designed “for the children.”
And tell her it’s just too bad she ain’t one of them children no more. So put your shoulder to the wheel honey, and get to work. You’ve got a lot of mouths to feed.
SL- “From the rooftop a group of Koreans armed with shotguns and automatic weapons peered onto the smoky streets.”
Funny that. I believe it was the Los Angeles police department that recently admitted that their primary responsibility was to protect themselves and government and infrastructure. This is the department that operates under the policy that divides the civilian populace into two groups; taxpayers/wage slaves that need to toe the line or risk having their assets seized or illegal aliens that are a privileged class that are not expected to be held to the same laws.
The government has allowed 20,000 armed troops from Mexico and El Salvador to take root in LA alone and they appease these insurgent communities with the fruits of the working class to buy elections. When the shooting starts, and under this government, it will, who you gonna call when you are inside of the ‘no-go’ zone? Well, you aren’t calling anyone; you’re on your own baby when the scale of the unrest is larger than a departments shift.
Your government hates you and wants you to die.
“So, in the town where the barber shaves all and only those who don’t shave themselves, does he shave himself?”
No, he grows a beard. The new problem is his wife doesn’t like beards. The solution is is Wife’s younger sister, who loves beards.
“A fifteenth century explorer could build a new ship with little more than a couple of steel axes and knives (and might do without them in a pinch), a crew of 100 and six months, and sail that same crew across the ocean.”
Factually inaccurate, sir. 15th century shipbuilding was as much art as science. It took hundreds of SKILLED craftsmen many months. IIRC, the typical Sailing Ship of that era took 14 months to build, not counting the time for the timber to cure. A warship took closer to 20 months. Remember also that steel as we know it today was then a rare and expensive substance. Those Axes were Iron. Most steel wasn’t (by modern standards) until Bessemer invented the process of mass producing quality steel. It is easier and costs less in manhours for modern society to produce an airplane then it was for 15th century Europe to produce a sailing ship. Notice I said Europe. The only other civilization that even came close to the 15th century caravel was the Chinese Junk. They had no keel so were unsuitable for deep water.
That is why it was Europeans that dominated the world. European sailing ships sailed to China. Chinese Junks didn’t sail to Europe.
http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?gtrack=pthc&ParagraphID=dzr
By building re-supply stations and using the Ort clouds for resources and bases, current technology is good enough to get humans to the closest star. It would require enormous amounts of capital and a international effort but it is possible.
All that is missing is the will.
I don’t consider any of this off topic, since the topic is the pending collapse of European civilization, or at least the 20th century version. I doubt that 400 million Europeans will commit suicide tomorrow nor get up and go somewhere else, so the collapse of the current social structure will leave a vacuum that some political entity will fill.
I suspect the Socialists will see the collapse of Socialism as a reason to redouble their efforts to spread socialism. So the riots will spread as those who have been told for generations that lunch is free and the buffet never gets empty discover the truth. That truth being that when there isn’t enough to go around the normal process is for the stronger to get more, the weaker to get less.
The normal result will be Europeans rediscovering that it is good to be strong. Shortly thereafter the rest of the world will re-discover why it is bad to be weak and just what their great great grandparents disliked about Europeans.
68. stoicheion
All I can say is that the early explorers were going somewhere where there was air.
Elby, i know just how ya feel, regarding the kiddos –all ya can do is remind her “it could be woise!” –and give her a copy of Sixteen Tons –
You load sixteen tons, what do you get?
Another day older and deeper in debt.
Saint Peter, don’t you call me, ’cause I can’t go;
I owe my soul to the company store.
The economic crises in Europe and the US illustrate the brilliance of Philip Bobbitt’s thesis in “The Shield of Achilles.” In the book, he traces the evolution of states over the past five hundred years and asserts that the nation states which fought the wars of the twentieth century (with democracy being the winner) are evolving into three forms of the market state, each with its own set of constraints and each offering its people different kinds of opportunities.
Unsurprisingly, no form of the market state can have it all. The entrepreneurial state requires highly competent individuals who do not rely on collectives for their security. The managerial or nonprofit state draws on managers who decide what the people’s needs are and how they should be met while the mercantile state aims to corner as much of what is perceived to be a fixed amount of wealth for itself, i.e. a zero sum game.
If you accept this theory, then it becomes clear that the current battle in the US between the forces favouring the managerial state and those for entrepreneurial state is existential and fundamental and must be waged all out. That is, all the doom and gloom on the right has to stop pronto. And, it goes, perhaps without saying, that if the entrepreneurial form wins, education is going to be absolutely key to ultimate success.
RWE, tell her she’s working hard ‘for the children?’, she’d take one long look at her younger brothers and sisters and run for the hills! You know your getting old when your twenty something kids, sigh, roll their eyes and say, “Kids, these days!”
And buddy,@ 70, that’s an apt metaphor for the American economy. Here’s another one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d8ROhH3_vs&feature=player_embedded
Have a nice day.
AS wrote:
“And, it goes, perhaps without saying, that if the entrepreneurial form wins, education is going to be absolutely key to ultimate success.”
Not education in its current mostly incompetent government subsidized form, which is a major reason for the crisis in the first place. Real education, in science, math, and statistics, and an honest telling of history and rigorous appreciation of the classics would be better.
In fact, I would say that education is actually overrated in terms of a functioning entrepreneurial state. Equally or more important are liberty and a well-developed work ethic. I would actually choose those as being more important than education, which, after, all can be well developed in mangerial state dictatorships and is not a guarantee of success. Necessary but not sufficient, and all that.
73-nmu
“In fact, I would say that education is actually overrated in terms of a functioning entrepreneurial state.”
I wholeheartedly agree with this assessment. Education is important but not all important. I think it is fair to say that 30 years of on the job training with a modicum of educational skills is probably a good indicator of high productivity. Four years of college may provide you with sharp skills but it is as much an expectation of reduced wages that employers might prefer a college grad to a seasoned employee. Between racial quotas and the reliance on higher and higher levels of education the whole concept of merit is lost.
#73 & #74
One of the major problems we have had in education for the past few decades is the dumbing down of a high school education in the US, and the dumbing down of college.
Much of what requires a college degree in the way of skills such as writing coherently and being able to have the mathematical ability to balance your checkbook was required in order to graduate high school once upon a time. That is no longer the case. Frequently a high school diploma now has all the value of a piece of used toilet paper.
And it also used to be that not everyone was considered to be college material. It used to be that only the talented could gain admission to college. Now everyone can.
Education is valuable and essential, but much of what passes for education these days doesn’t really fit the traditional definition of that term at all.
Always enjoy El Wretchard and the people who comment here. A little Oasis of Sanity. A library’s worth of books will be written on how we came to this mess. My practical response is to trade the mother of all bubbles, aka Federal Reserve Notes, for the world’s oldest currencies. Gold and, especially silver, which is steadily regaining its historical ratio of value to gold, about 16 to 1. Silver, if you want to turn your rapidly deteriorating dollars into something the bankers and politicians are unable to destroy. Take possession and hide it well.
# 73 and # 74 – Yes, I agree with the qualifications. I meant education in its more general sense as that which provides the skills necessary for independent thinking and functioning not the overpriced credentialing that now masquerades as higher ed.
s @ 68: By building re-supply stations and using the Ort clouds for resources and bases, current technology is good enough to get humans to the closest star.
If “current technology” is anything that has ever yet reached orbit, then no, not by a couple of orders of magnitude. Sorry.
Yes, there are some good ideas around, but light years from pragmatic usability – tell ya what, show me a US self-sufficient in energy first, get any kind of fission/fusion or equally capable drive working, and get back to me.
If we could get to the stars, Mars would be an afternoon jaunt. Run some numbers.
I may be exaggerating a bit with the axes of course, and that couldn’t make a “state of the art” ship, but square-rigged wooden ships of no great luxury could be built easily enough, the sails might have been a bigger challenge, and I’m not sure what the critical element would be even for rope lines.
I often wonder what it would do to history to go back and show modern “Bermuda” rigs for ships …
#68
The Chinese didn’t go to Europe but they did get to the US west coast. They landed around San Diego but didn’t find anything to stay for. They just didn’t go the right direction, just as have the European and US socialists. They have all lost their way from the one true path. Conservatives unite and to the front in rank order!
Stoicheion @ 68; “European sailing ships sailed to China. Chinese Junks didn’t sail to Europe.”
Chinese ships did sail to Africa, Arabia, Indonesia. Some even argue that Chinese ships circumnavigated the world in the early 1400s.
So what went wrong? Why did China lead the world in the early 1400s, and then go into a 500 year funk?
There’s a very interesting book about this. Louise Levathes “When China Ruled the Seas”. China’s elite conciously turned their backs on technology — and generations of Chinese suffered the consequences.
Does this sound familiar?
#s 73-75:
Re dumbing down: Some of my grandchildren have taken “advanced placement” classes in high school and I recently learned another is taking some “pre-AP” classes. My children, in HS in the ’80s, took some advanced classes for college credit in HS via the local jr college and these were true college classes and only a few were available.
Trouble is, when I’ve checked or asked, it sounds like the “AP” classes are the same or less-rigorous than the standard college prep classes I took in the ’50s, yet every grade in “AP” gets counted as one letter grade higher for GPA purposes.
WADR to my grandkids, this seems like a scam to me.
53) Read up a little on ship-building in Columbus’ day. Much more sophisticated than you realize.
Marty said:
And in that vein, when austerity hits the USA, it will be more than just the “American Left” who are unhappy… the Tea Partiers will go from a fairly polite bunch of rerformers to something much angrier when they see the next deal to save Goldman and JPM go down.
————-
Marty you are 97 percent on. The Tea People are the ONLY vestige of sanity. There is nothing like them elsewhere. NOTHING LIKE THEM/U.S. except….in America.
EUnuchstan thought W was a right wing conservative. Perhaps from their POV.
71. Anglo-Saxon
I haven’t read Bobbitt’s book, but from your description of his thesis I’d characterize the current class battle in the US a bit differently.
Expressed in his terminology, I’d say it’s actually the managerial and mercantilist classes in a fascist alliance to subjugate and eventually eliminate the entrepreneurial class.
I believe we’ve seen this pattern before…
Just a side note to clarify my final observations in #67 I add.
As a practical matter, we here in California are left to believe that the state loves: women, gays, lesbians, bisexuals, transgendered, and Mexicans and Panamanians, Guatemalans, Salvadorians, and Somali’s, Ethiopians, Eritreans, and Nigerians, and Vietnamese, Filipinos, Hmong and so on and so forth until they love 5.97 billion people on the earth and conspicuously do not love 100 million or so European descent males. The simple answer is that they do not ‘love’ 98.7% of the world’s population… I think it is fair to say they just don’t like those who they happen to exhibit hate towards and successfully legislate against those very same individual based on a strong, biased disregard for their race and gender. Funny that. This used to be called racism, now it is called social justice which is code for a race based war against Middle America.
Response to #84
Here is one definition of mercantilism:
“The theory and system of political economy prevailing in Europe after the decline of feudalism, based on national policies of accumulating bullion, establishing colonies and a merchant marine, and developing industry and mining to attain a favorable balance of trade.”
As you see, there isn’t much of that which drives the current domestic situation. It must also be noted that the managerial class nominally at least disdains mercantilism. I say nominally because as we know only too well, there are many in the bureaucracy and elsewhere that are really only interested in their own agendas and not in “looking after” the people.
That being said, there is no doubt that the coming global economic battles will see various unholy alliances vying for dominance – all the more reason why the right must take up a suggestion on these boards and start educating the public about the basic facts of economics.
Once the left is defeated internally (2012), the country will be able to pursue foreign policies and alliances that are coherent with a new domestic consensus. But, as long as the country is divided on what constitutes the proper role and reach of government, who is sovereign and who can be a citizen, the signals to the world will be confusing and inconsistent. In a business, the marketing orientation requires every aspect of that business to be aligned to its core mission. In like fashion, the entrepreneurial state must also be aligned to its mission.
86 AS
“As you see, there isn’t much of that which drives the current domestic situation.”
You don’t mean like our financial system, who profits from the largesse of government bailouts and are dependent upon government guarantees or the unions of Government Motors do you?
“Between racial quotas and the reliance on higher and higher levels of education the whole concept of merit is lost.”
And oh yah, let’s not forget the donut hole of low wage labor that is being eaten by the illegal laborers. Even the crust on the American pie is being eaten by the elites chosen ones and the safety net of work is no longer preserved for citizens or the young.
As I write Oliver North has moved his coverage of the Middle East to our border and the war that is being waged there. More people die in our war than in Iraq and Afghanistan combined.
32/Walt
Sorry, no magazine here. Just someone who enjoys good writing.
Rodney @1…
Essentially all of these bonds are being bought by mega-banks.
They are ‘rolling’ their positions.
NEW money is being kicked into the system by the ECB.
RESOLUTION of the banks may take…
REVOLUTION in government.
However, there is no way forward from spendist addiction until society hits rock bottom.
Only then can any attempt be made in de-toxxing cultural ‘norms.’
——-
The idea that a superior, yet human, power can correct the ‘mistakes’ of nature and bad luck is pretty recent. Until the 20th Century only Saints and Gods could do that.
Peak Government is going to occur right along with Peak Compassion.
————
The surge in NGO’s / Quangos is concordant with our age of Hubris.
The First dream that must be imploded is the virtue conferred by supporting Quangos / NGOs.
OXFAM is the classic. It hands out food to the third world in such a manner that local farming is brought to a halt: how does a one horse farmer compete with zero cost food?
Naturally, the next growing season the food crisis attended to by OXFAM is embedded, and pandemic. Even a single year of crop abandonment permanently ( almost ) ruins the farm. Nature takes hold, and everything from goats to sheep destroys the farmland.
This can be seen in the long remove from Rome and Athens: what had been home soil is now considered a grazing zone, only.
Experience with other soils indicate that only massive effort over ten years is able to rehabilitate such molested lands. ( You have to kick all the varmits off and keep them off — then reseed and over-water providing tremendous capital and labor inputs. It just doesn’t happen as a rule — obvious exception being Kibbutz.)
So while OXFAM is able to milk the first world with tears and hunger — it only makes things WORSE. It operates ANTI-ECONOMICALLY. That is its crime.
When you scale up NGO after NGO you realize that the letters really mean: Non-Going Operation. They’re here to stay, and stay, and stay… Yet none of the locals is left with a Going Concern.
( Excluding payolla, etc. )
Western, Spendist Government is OXFAM on steroids.
“If “current technology” is anything that has ever yet reached orbit, then no, not by a couple of orders of magnitude. Sorry.”
WTF? OVER. Are we even close to communicating?
Ever hear of Sputnik?
There is so much junk in Orbit that entire bureaucracies are devoted to keeping track of it.
I think you are misreading my statement. I get the impression you think I’m suggesting getting on a space ship after lunch and going to Alpha Centuri for the afternoon. NOT. Exploring Alpha Centuri would take a century plus. 4 to 5 generations. It could still be done with current technology.
The Ion Drive provides enough thrust to get anywhere in the universe. It is just slow (time consuming) and we have to send supply units on ahead. Neither of those two things are impossible, they are just difficult. Big Difference. The ‘leap of faith’ required to send men in small ships across a large Ocean was greater then what is required for manned exploration of the solar system. We know the solar system is there. Columbus DID NOT know America was there. He had a theory. By the standards of his time, Columbus was much more wild eyed then I am today.
The USA isn’t self sufficient in Energy because we lack the political will to do what is needed to be self sufficient.
The USA is currently the #1 OIL producer ( I think, I haven’t looked that up in years), a position it has held for the last 60 years. If one drops the artificial constraint of counting only liquid OIL, then the USA also has the largest reserves.
America is prevented from using those reserves to boost it’s economy by a unholy marriage of Luddites, Environmentalists and Robber Barons. Here after RBEL’s. This alliance manipulates the establishment to ensure the status que keeps them fat and happy.
The suckers (citizens) are starting to figure it out. That has the establishment worried. When the establishment gets scared enough, they will drop the RBEL’s overboard. Dropping somebody off the cart to occupy the wolves is a time honored bureaucratic technique.
That is when America will start exploiting it’s OIL shale reserves.
Most of the USA’s OIL imports come from Canada’s OIL tar and sand resources. Non-liquid OIL is a growing part of the worlds OIL supplies.
If the Chinese ever get a clue and focus their espionage efforts on OIL shale conversion instead of stealth fighters, they will be much better off.
So my argument is that the current crisis in Western Civilization is one of will. Political will. Western Civilization has the people, technology and resources to do ANYTHING. We just don’t have the leadership. That will change whenever the citizens decide they need a leader instead of a Chicago thug.
Blert,
Re: Oxfam,
I’ve seen it on the ground in what was Kitui District, Kenya.
There was a fantastic harvest in February 2007, the UN WFP were still dishing out oil and soya every week, the guys who’d gone to the effort of tilling, planting, keeping the baboons etc out, and harvesting had well fed families but zero financial reward. these were one donkey and a couple of bullocks operations. The local guys I was with were tearing verbal strips off the hides of all the NGO folks we caught up with.
There are some highly articulate young free market libertarians in Kenya!
All the big hotels in Nairobi, have the conference facilities full of UN and NGO “conferences” every single weekday. Next time I’m over, I intend to find out how many of the “conference” goers get expenses paid trips round the game parks and down to the beaches as part of the package (no doubt with cover visits to some near by project or other…).
Education:
The state funding has totally perverted it over here.
I got crap grades in my exams at 18 (It was much more fun to climb hills and chase girlies than it was to study – I’m not saying I would have got top marks if I’d worked hard – probably not, but I was lazy too).
What got me scrape pass marks, 10 years later got some whom I coached A* grades, grade inflation has more than halved the value of grades again since then.
A college lecturer friend (with doctorate and umpteen masters degrees) gets students with moderate to good Irish leaving cert grades. Most are barely literate, do their best to miss class, and they flaunt “but I have a history of solvent abuse and self harm”, or the equivalents, in the firm belief that it entitles them to leniency in marking, and excuses all poor behaviour. Of cause, all expect to be given top grades as of right – Because they are Irish…
British grade inflation is so bad that several private schools have adopted the International Baccalaureate, and at least one (Ampleforth College) uses its own exam at 18.
Scotland keeps it’s own education system, which it boasts about, yet there is zero inspection to verify the validity of the boasting.
Removing all state funding and student loans quangos from post 18 education would, at a stroke, remove most of those who have no intention of working (you’d still get a few funded by Daddy), and, the self funding students would demand courses to benefit them, and teaching to a standard acceptable to them.
I’ve been in arguments of the “It’s my turn to get the bugger!” type, over who gets the pleasure of hauling the lecturer out of the staff room to teach, and it wasn’t with grant funded colleagues.
By all means have state funding for education to 18, but maybe in the form of 12 stamps for each year? allowing parents to move the kids even at 1/4 of a term. Badly managed schools would soon disappear.
My lecturer friend was complaining about the price of flights out at Christmas, maybe with self managed schools, different schools could each organise their term times to suit their client population, avoiding the surge as all schools in the state end their terms at the same time?
Education 2:
When the haircut comes, whether by currency exchange rates, or by massive inflation.
We won’t be able to afford goods made in China.
Places like Western Europe, food will be bloody expensive (in the late 40′s a fat lamb was worth 2 weeks wages for a farm worker, last year it wasn’t worth 1/2 day of his wages).
I guess the question of education will be self answering:
Most of those young hands will be needed to make things again.
The missing item in this thread is what will Europe do about their low-skill immigrants? Their immigrants from Muslim countries consume a disproportionate share of social spending, produce a disproportionate percentage of their crime, and threaten to demographically displace the native population within a couple of generations.
The native populations are slowly starting to realize that they cannot provide social services to their immigrant population, and still avoid economic collapse. Expulsion of economically-unproductive immigrants will hold off collapse for a little while longer, and will likely be an avenue explored by those governments in the near future.
“what will Europe do about their low-skill immigrants? ”
They need to move to their country of orgin or start picking tomatos on state farms.
Mitterand and others sold wide open Algerian immigration as a win-win more than a generation ago.
Paris is only now coming to grips with their gripes.
The society that gave the world 1789 is unlikely to transition smoothly into shariah.
K/94;
Most of those young hands will be needed to make things again
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgqVCJpRqWQ
(“How ya gonna keep em, down on the farm, once they’ve seen Paree?”)
Exhelo@82, I wondered why you had linked your Name to AOL.com.
I looked around there, and found a link to an article about the most recent Wikileak, accompanied by the inescapable endearing portrait of the Hilda-beast. Wikileaks announced last week they would be releasing a QUARTER OF A MILLION confidential documents, including tens of thousands of secret cable messages from U.S. embassy staff and state department field officers to the home office dating from as far back as 1966.
This should be interesting.
It is really difficult to observe the bland “Oh, Well…” attitude of our Pustule-in-Chief as the WikiLeak Leaks continue unabated, without being drawn ineluctably toward a conclusion that he is fully in accord with the purposes of the WikiLeakers.
Of course, his attitude has shown to be much less mild and indulgent when it’s been HIS secret conversations being leaked or even hinted at.
blert @ 90; re OXFAM, please take a look at the SPLC and its offshore banking –
http://pajamasmedia.com/instapundit/110500/
seems pro bono is pretty lucrative –