The New York Times describes a very careful attempt at trying to tease a bone away from a savage dog. The bone in this case are two US journalists who have been sentenced to prison in a North Korean penal camp. The dog in this instance is the Dear Leader, Kim Jong Il.
WASHINGTON — President Obama and his top national security aides on Monday urged North Korea to release “on humanitarian grounds” two American journalists sentenced to 12 years of hard labor for entering North Korean territory. But administration officials said that the harsh sentences were likely to be used as a negotiating ploy by the North as it tries to avoid new sanctions in response to its nuclear test two weeks ago. …
Administration officials appeared to be weighing whether to send a special envoy in a high-profile effort to seek the release of the two women, who were detained by North Korean soldiers at the Chinese border on March 17. … But the White House declined to talk about that option, and Mr. Gore has largely kept quiet, perhaps in hopes of not hardening the North’s position. Mr. Richardson said it was too early for Mr. Obama to send a personal representative.
Advertisement“Talk of an envoy is premature, because what first has to happen is a framework for negotiations on a potential humanitarian release,” Mr. Richardson told NBC News. “What we would try to seek would be some kind of a political pardon.”
American officials said they feared that any discussions with the North about the release of Ms. Ling and Ms. Lee could get caught up in the Byzantine politics of succession in the North Korean capital.
The Administration is apparently trying to de-link the arrest of the two American journalists from the nuclear confrontation between Pyongyang and Washington. Quite naturally, the diplomats don’t want Laura Ling or Euna Lee caught in the middle. So they are trying to cut them out of the larger deal and settle the issue within a smaller framework they are trying to construct. Maybe the package will involve a prisoner swap or the release of some asset, but the main idea is to keep Ling and Lee out of the nuclear sanctions problem. In principle it makes sense. In practice, not so much. The problem of course, is that is precisely what the Dear Leader wants them for: to mix them up with the nuclear issue. The men in Pyongyang can read the New York Times just as well as anyone else. They know that President Obama is trying to set an exchange up as a side deal. For that reason they will keep sweeping Ling and Lee into the center of the table.
The alternative course of action is to up the ante. To act as if the two journalists were of no importance at all to Washington and to pick up on charges of jaywalking, spitting on the sidewalk or the illegal possession of an ugly face, any and all loose change that Pyongyang may have roaming all over the world. Every agent, every tramp steamer, everything that doesn’t have diplomatic immunity until Pyongyang asks Washington to stop. That’s when they can mention Ling and Lee. But that would be an extremely painful and risky course of action to take; one which may result in the death or ill-treatment of the two journalists. And in the end it may fail. North Korea’s twisted sense of entitlement may have in fact made them irrational. They may hold on to the two women simply out of spite if the Dear Leader is insulted in any shape, way or form.
In a sense, the plight of Ling and Lee are a reflection in miniature of the dilemmas with dealing with North Korea. Be nice to them, appeal for clemency, release prisoners to secure the freedom of hostages — and they will do the dirty again. Cross Pyongyang, raise the ante, dare them to draw — and you risk escalating the conflict to a level that nobody can calculate. I don’t know what the right course is. But on a human level men who act like Kim Jong Il and force those they encounter to pay up or else will find 99 of a hundred willing to back down instead of risking an all out fight. But sooner or later they’ll meet the hundredth; who will listen to their threats and bluster with cold eyes and then shoot Kim in the knees regardless of the hostages. I do not think Barack Obama will do this. But someday Kim will push his luck too far. People like him always do.
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Asia Times columnist David Goldman, who goes by the nom de plume of Spengler, once wrote that, “We sane people sit around wondering what makes crazy people crazy, while crazy people sit up all night finding ways to get crazier. We’ll never catch up.”
North Korea — meet Iran.
Barack Obama — meet Jimmy Carter.
Barack Obama is nothing like Jimmy Carter–we should be so lucky. Jimmy Carter was President of the United States. Barack Obama is–haven’t you heard?–God. Even Evan Thomas knows this.
Heh, you are right, betsybounds. But I was thinking more along the lines of how tyrants view weakness.
As a young moron I worked to get Jimmy Carter elected. Then I joined the Peace Corps, went to Kenya, and from that vantage point watched Carter cancel missile systems etc, to show we were no threat to our enemies, and then watched as the Soviet Union and its proxies expanded into Ethiopia, Angola, Namimbia, Nicaraugua, Afghanistan, etc. Then Iran and hostages.
I’ve been a “conservative” on foreign policy ever since.
LOL! Thanks, Salt Lick! I voted for Carter, too–twice. Well, to paraphrase George W. Bush, “When I was a young moron, I was a young moron.”
http://hotair.com/archives/2009/06/06/more-bowing-from-the-media/
Anyone here seen that old movie called, “Pork Chop Hill”? or heard of the battle over an insignificant piece of Korean mud that became nothing more than a bargaining chip for the leaders of NorK and ChiCom and a meat grinder for American, Chinese and North Korean troops.
This is what the world is dealing with today a high stakes poker game.
“I bet Obama just swagga’s away.”
You have to understand that people like Kim Jong Il, Fidel Castro, etc. resent or even hate their fellow citizens, they are willing to fight until the last one of them is dead. It is only their personal power, their security, and that of those family members they love that concerns them. As long as we don’t understand that we are wasting our time. In a way Reagan understood or stumbled into that truth when he sent the bombers after Kaddafi, and you saw the result.
The conduct of North Korea in taking hostages is completely identical to the conduct of Hamas or Hezbollah. In both cases the only rational thing to do is to drain the hostages of value.
Congress should pass an Act declaring the two hostages legally dead and proclaiming a National Day of Mourning with an appropriate ceremony in the National Cathedral. We can then make it unambiguously clear that we care for the least of our own by denying the Norks the privilege of using South Koreans as hostages by entering an aggressive campaign of interdiction and destruction of NorK assets. We should declare the 1953 Cease Fire to be void. If the hostages are returned unharmed then Congress can legally restore them to life and a new and improved Cease Fire agreement can be signed.
Remember that there is a thread that runs from North Korea to the “New Party” to International A.N.S.W.E.R. and Acorn to Barack H. Obama. North Korea is toxic and he will pay mightily to keep these rocks unlifted or to bury them very deep.
Remembering Ross Peroit going to the wall to get his people out of Iran. Not much effort from climate deranged Gore, what a scum-bag/coward.
Good point NullificationNow .The Goracle should do like Jesse Jackson used to do .Just travel to the country and work his magic to get his employees released.
South Korea and Seoul in particular are the larger hostages and the two journalists are their smaller counterparts. Or maybe the Seoul is the bigger copy of the smaller hostages. It doesn’t matter. Everything about North Korea repeats, like an MC Escher recursive drawing. The smaller motifs are like the bigger ones; and the bigger ones are like the smaller ones. The biggest motif was kept from growing to an even greater one by the tripwire of the DMZ. For 50 years they couldn’t grow past that tripwire. But now, by creating a nuclear weapons capability, North Korea has been able to grow another monster of the same congruence on an international scale. Kim’s been thinking out of the box and finally designed a horror that couldn’t be kept in check by the 2nd ID. Because that’s all Pyongyang can do, repeat and repeat trouble at every scale.
I seriously doubt President Obama will go to the mat over these two women journalists. Korea probably wouldn’t let him; his Left wing would have fits. The real challenge is to recreate the tripwire that kept North Korea in place so that it effectively deters Pyongyang in other dimensions. The characteristic of a tripwire is that it removes choice. To stop Kim you have to essentially pre-commit yourself to a course of action that will automatically hurt him if he does something you don’t want him to do. Because once you have a choice, then pity and hostages will keep you from stopping him. The Dear Leader relies on civilization never being able to choose to put life in peril. But if civilization voids its choice about hurting Kim if he does “X”, then he is probably rational in that he will never do “X”, just as he’s never crossed the DMZ.
Yet ultimately, even the decision to bind one’s self to a precommitted act, is like deterrence, a choice in itself. The world doesn’t have the will to stop Kim. Therefore he’ll keep going until he does something so vile, so bizarre and so destructive that almost by accident he’ll call down the roof on himself. Given enough rope he’ll hang himself. Unfortunately, he’ll drag half the room to the gallows into the bargain.
In a way North Korea is like the protagonist of the 1950s noir movie DOA, who comes into a police station and reports himself murdered. It’s dead already. It’s blown up already. We just haven’t heard the boom yet. It’s not only like an accident waiting to happen, it is almost like an accident that’s already taken place, except nobody has received the report yet.
Unless these two women receive much better than normal treatment (which I suppose is likely, at least if the Norks actually expect to trade them soon), I would guess its unlikely they will live very long in a North Korean prison / camp.
I await the daily box score of “days in captivity” on the front page of the New York Times.
One wonders just how many American citizens a foreign power can kidnap before it become worth fighting actually about – 2, 54, 999?
LofTM:
Draining the hostages of value is an excellent idea. I’d pair your tactics with Wretchard’s up-the-ante approach.
This whole ‘if-we-could-only-talk-to-the-animals’ schtick is about as effective as it is tiresome and predictable when it comes to some characters.
The bend-over-backwards stuff — like halal meals at Gitmo — should be spared for people who’ll understand it and appreciate it. (Even some Germans and Japanese forget that the old-school follow up to their drubbings would have been salted earth and slavery ).
As it is, we’ve invited the family of man to civilization’s banquet, but certain guests insist on absconding with the silverware and threatening other guests with the cutlery.
There does not appear to be any threat uttered, any action that North Korea can undertake that yields them any real consequence.
Oh, yes, they won’t get a Nike shoe factory or be chosen as the site for the next Olympic games. They won’t get a guest seat on the Security Council or be chosen as the location for the next Spiderman movie. Kim will not be invited to appear in Dancing With the Stars. Disney will not announce the opening of new Heroes of 1950 theme park in Pyongyang.
But they would not have gotten any of those things anyway. In fact they don’t want them.
Blow up a civilian airliner, shoot down an EC-121, capture a USN ship, kidnap Japanese citizens, kill American troops on the other side of the DMZ, shoot missiles over populated areas, and devise A Threat of the Week Club. Max Nix. Next!
One suspects that our nuking the place down to the bedrock would produce a reaction among even their leadership of “Oh, Thank God, Finally!” as the RVs came in.
Of course, there’s always the Keyser Soze approach to rendering the value of a hostage useless — but even contemplation of such a thing in the abstract, from the comfort of my office, creeps me out.
A mid-90′s Wired Magazine feature on threats to civilization guessed at the impact of things like a brief case nuke in Manhattan or a super virus.
In the super virus scenario, borders closed and international air travel is recognized as a dangerous transmission medium. A plane from an infected country lands at Changi Airport in Singapore. The authorities have the stones to incinerate the aircraft rather than risk the entire population of the island nation.
Similarly, I used to think that a few early demonstrations of ruthlessness in the face of certain forms of outlaw behavior (I’m thinking here of old fashioned airplane hijackings) would have sent the message that there was simply nothing to be gained.
But then, in my musings I was never one of the passengers on those planes.
God help the people who must make decisions under such circumstances. With a bit of his help, these jounalists will come home to loving families and lucrative book deals.
Is there any truth to the report that these journalists were working for Al Gore? What was their intended story line?
For a glimpse inside the mind of a once captured liberal Dutch journalist check out this strangeness:
Yes, the Tailban raped me…but they respected me
In a binary situation (you do X, we do Y) taking of the American journalists is a definite win for Kim: it puts him on an equal footing with the US (something otherwise unthinkable) and it gives him the ability to influence our policy and actions. There are ways to break this impasse — declare the journalists dead would be one example, nuke the country until it glows would be another. And a third option would be to give in to Kim’s demands — recognition, tribute, whatever. None of those alternatives is good policy, and if you hear of a special envoy or bilateral meetings or anything of that sort you are seeing a short-sighted policy that only perpetuates the binary relationship that Kim loves.
So what needs to be done is to break that relationship — bring pressure on the Chinese, Japanese or South Koreans to intervene. This is not easy, although it appears the Chinese brought Kim to heel several weeks ago, however briefly. But basically the governments that have any influence with Kim — predominantly China and Russia — have little interest in saving our bacon. Finding the incentive that changes that, the incentive that makes the Chinese decide to tell Kim to knock it off, that will be the key to a peaceful resolution of the current impasse. But to paraphrase Spengler as quoted above, this only gives Kim time to find another bargaining chip, and let’s face it, what else does he have to do with his time? Methinks Obama may just have met his nemesis. F
Kim is merely playing at bad cop…
So that Iran can build nukes as the good cop…
This is the axis of tag-team.
The Kim Family Business must be put on the back burner.
The focus must be on Iran.
However, since we have a marxist-muslim resident there is scant chance that this boil will be lanced.
In the larger view H’s eventual sanctions against Israel are the real threat to peace.
Bibi must be racking his brains for a way out of his American dependency.
Why are these women worth the trouble? Why can’t they pay the price for their folly? Why should their foolishness change the course of the sanctions? Nothing should be done for them. Let the world see what happens to them. If they want to be martyrs, don’t expect the USA to cut a deal for your privileged asses.
From what I understand, yes the two journalists are Gore’s people. Therefore, there is a reasonable working assumption that whatever they intended to report was going to be anti-American.
For practical reasons as discussed above, their survival does not weigh in the balance compared to being further extorted on larger matters of national security. On a lesser level, working for their release will only have the effect of adding to the force of the Left’s anti-American spin machine.
Thus one could rationally see that it would be in our country’s interest for them to be abandoned as readily as this country has previously abandoned far more worthy citizens. Therefore, one can consider it to be highly likely that Buraq Hussein Obama will gladly fall into the trap of making them part of the central problem.
The entire impetus of his foreign policy has been to strengthen our enemies, and to insult and harm those who would otherwise be our allies.
Given that the two journalists have enlisted on the other side in our Cold Civil War; it could also be considered that as no longer being our countrymen, their continued survival is of no more concern to us than that of say the average North Korean.
Subotai Bahadur
The 1968 Pueblo incident, the Iranian hostage 1978 crisis, Lebanon 1982, Khobar tower 1996, and finally 9/11/2001. It is possible that the trip wire is simply when the citizens say it is.
That too can be manipulated. As recently reported the Berlin policeman whose bullet led to 1968 student unrest was Stasi spy.
I suppose that one has to be careful now that it seems obvious that the Supreme leader is clearly not beyond being able to be duped. Back to the shadow world where nightmares refuse to stay in the closets.
It doesn’t even necessarily take the 100th man. The most dangerous scenario involves 1-99 who will back down…and back down, and back down — and then be unable to swallow backing down again.
After a certain amount of humiliation, adversaries 1-99 might well turn and fight, usually at a bad time, and in a way that surprises the antagonist.
This is 1930′s Europe in a nutshell: Hitler pushed and pushed, and the British and French backed down, at every point where Hitler could have been easily stopped (Rearmament, Rhineland), or where the confrontation could have occurred on more advantageous terms than later (Sudetenland/Munich). Chamberlain and the French instead stood and fought over Poland (a weaker eastern ally) — after Hitler had longer to arm, after the Soviets made a deal with him). It would have been smarter to stand sooner.
The situation in North Korea is such a likely war breeder when Obama is factored in because he may appear to be more of a pushover than he is. Aggressors cannot be sure with him exactly where the redline is, because he may not know himself.
‘South Korea and Seoul in particular are the larger hostages and the two journalists are their smaller counterparts. Or maybe the Seoul is the bigger copy of the smaller hostages.’
And soon you can include Alaska, Hawaii and eventually the West Coast into your hostage list.
“Kim will not be invited to appear in Dancing With the Stars.”
No but he starred along side Alec Baldwin, Matt Damon and Janeane Garofalo in Team America. Kim excels in his Karaoke rendition of “I’m So Ronery”. Life imitates art.
If those women were there to further anti-American sentiment, then let Gore get them out privately. We have no interest in their condition that is of their own making. It really doesn’t matter what liberal fantasy they were pursuing, WE shouldn’t sacrifice national interests for the foolish actions of left wing liberals who are reaping what they have sown. The blame really doesn’t lie with the Norks because they are smart enough to sieze upon any way to muddy the waters. If the big O folds, then know for certain that the days of the USA are setting.
North Korea continues to build bombs and missiles, while the United States looks on impassively. In January 1968, an unarmed US Navy ship, the USS Pueblo, was seized in international waters off North Korea by the North Korean navy. In the attack, one US sailor was killed, and the remaining 82 crewmembers taken hostage. In North Korean jails the crew was beaten and tortured until they confessed to espionage. Eleven months later the United States government apologized to North Korea and the crew was released. One day there will be another Pueblo, only this time it won’t be a ship that’s held hostage, it will be us. North Korea has hundreds of high caliber artillery tubes within striking distance of Seoul, with hundreds more short and medium range missiles capable of reaching every part of South Korea, including our bases in the south. What’s more, this artillery can deliver chemical weapons. Should the mercurial Kim decide to move, some two hundred thousand Koreans will be killed in the first twenty-four hours, most of them in Seoul, and many hundreds of our soldiers. What will we do if he says pay up or Seoul goes up in flames? And if you think that’s bad, just wait till he marries his nukes with missiles capable of reaching the West Coast.
Some say all right, just nuke them now
While others say let’s wait
They’ll change if we just scrape and bow
And things will be just great
Others say you’re both wrong, still
It really doesn’t matter
For what we know of Kim Jong Il
We’ll soon be all the sadder
For one fine day he’ll smile and say
You think we’ve all been playing?
It’s time to ante up and pay
There is no more delaying
I’ve got the nukes and missiles too
I’m not afraid to use them
LA, Spokane to name a few
Can you afford to lose them?
You could’ve stopped me long ago
But dithered and played my game
You had the guns but did not show
The guts and much to your shame
And so I offer you a way
To stop the nukes from flying
And save Spokane and then LA
From instant death from frying
And on that day you’ll cringe in fright
And cry out for your momma
As missile trails streak through the night
From Nome to Yokahama
One of the hardest lessons a physician must learn is that it is sometimes necessary to hurt a patient in order to help them. True compassion is often counterintuitive. For example, spearing someone in the chest with a thick needle is an intrinsically cruel act, but sparing the patient from such trauma will only ensure their death from a tension pneumothorax. In training, circumstances demand physicians learn to willingly inflict painful indignities upon our patients in an effort to prevent the even graver indignity of a painful death.
I fear that our current Administration is like an unsupervised — but intensely caring — medical student who knows what he should do but is so reluctant to cause the patient discomfort that he dithers while the patient dies.
Death does not respect good intentions. Neither do the North Koreans.
Who wants to bet that Japan hasn’t already gone nuclear? South Korea is going to suffer due to proximity, and as anti-American sentiment has steadily grown, why should we pay their freight? China should really be concerned about Japanese nuclear weapons. That seems to be the only certainty as far as I can see.
Plumpplumber – ditto the “journalist” who was busted in Iran, and all the other human shields / journalists who have gone to dangerous places and done stupid things (i.e., St. Pancake Rachel Corey)in Gaza, Russia, China, Zimbabwe, and now North Korea, and then expect all the rest of us to stand up and extract their silly little heads from the noose they deliberately and with thought ahead of time put it into.
I just don’t see where it’s even worth a headline, let alone an international incident. Let Dear Leader have them. And if anyone cares, let South Korea be the ones to finagle about their capture since South Korea is closest and most determined to appease their friends and relatives to the north.
May 28, 2009
“North Korea, reacting angrily to Seoul’s decision to join an international program to intercept ships suspected of aiding nuclear proliferation, called it a violation of the armistice signed in 1953, and said it would no longer honour the treaty.”
Since NK has declared the war back on doesn’t that give us “manuever room”?
The only game changer that might work painlessly in our favor is for Japan to go nuclear. With BHO as president this is the only the bully’s bluff will be called.
A nuclear Japan would end up having to act. The O simply can’t be trusted when national survival is at stake. When dealing with desperate types like the Norks, strength of character is required – when Bush said He would bring people to justice everyone knew they were going to die. The O is in an endgame with crazies who (1) don’t care about their starving peasants and (2) don’t give a fig about world opinion and (3) are determined to hold on to power. Ain’t no middle ground possible. Declare those two fools dead, and quit wasting our time on them. NahnCee, since those two despise American might, let them rot.
re: draining the value of the hostages.
First, I will assume NK is marginally rational. That is a leap of faith but otherwise proposing a strategy is useless.
The hostages have value to NK as long as the US fumes about it and may make a deal. Otherwise they are a nuisance.
We have multiple issues with NK. But remember other nations deal with them too. Some support the US, most are indifferent.
We should find a third nation (TN) which will link the hostages to their benign dealings with NK.
The mechanism would be: US gives TN a goodie, TN tells NK that TN/NK relations will improve if hostages are released, NK makes a nice gesture to the world and releases them. TN thanks NK. Whole world has a nice day.
All parties deny there were links.
Even Smart Diplomacy Hillary has few options. We should not give anything tangible to NK. But we probably will.
OT – (Doug didn’t post this yet)
Drudge, and the Daily Kos, have stories up about a Republican “coup” in the NY State Senate.
http://wcbstv.com/breakingnewsalerts/malcolm.smith.senate.2.1036194.html
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/6/8/740262/-The-Ghost-of-Joe-Bruno,-Tom-DeLay-Redux,-and-Why-NY-Matters
Reading both articles, one is left with the sense of watching jackals and hyenas fight over a rotting carcass. While this seems isolated and silly, it may be indicative of the growing unrest surrounding the political process (or as it is also known, “the division of the spoils”).
Obama gave a speech today, announcing he’s cutting the military budget by a third, canceling “un-needed weapons” …
His entire coalition collapses if he actually fights someone. So he won’t. He’s looking to surrender. This allows him the excuse to do so. I’m sure he will.
whiskey, are you serious? I haven’t heard anything about that.
If it’s true, this is flat-out treason.
Vinny @ 16 “God help the people who must make decisions under such circumstances. With a bit of his help, these jounalists will come home to loving families and lucrative book deals.”
What about those who are committed to avoiding those decisions or denying their necessity e.g. “There are those who would have us drop nuclear weapons on all of our adversaries. I say no! we should be able to talk with anyone at any time about anything without preconditions. The world should not fear America” Coming soon in a speech near your TV.
God help those who he is pledged to protect.
NK’s move may well be simply to test Obama publicly and to demonstrate that he is cojones-less. IOW, this is about decapitating the U. S. by demonstrating that Obama is not to be taken seriously. It’s precisely the “test” that Biden predicted (though I’ve never known what kind of reaction Biden was attempting to provoke, nor is it worth pondering over). NK is probably working on the assumption that the U. S. will do nothing, in which case NK will be making an international laughing-stock out of it. If Obama chooses to “negotiate,” who knows? NK may respond like Iran did: “You don’t have enough credit in the bank for me to take your seriously.” It’s all about humiliating America for electing Obama.
Consider Pelosi, Reid, Oprah, Sean Penn, Jessie Jackson, et al., humiliated. Consider me (and many of the BC commenters) annoyed, reaching the end of our rope, and sharpening the tines on our pitchforks.
O’Blarney: We should be able to talk with anyone at any time about anything without preconditions.
O’Blarney’s flunky: “Talk of an envoy is premature, because what first has to happen is a framework for negotiations on a potential humanitarian release,” Mr. Richardson told NBC News.
Sounds sort of pre-conditiony to me.
NahnCee, on what is respect for our government predicated? I’m of the opinion that “a certain fear of consequences” is necessary. If folks aren’t convinced that the best way to get along with the good ole USA is to be careful, then, well, The Big O is gonna have to kill some folks. You see, He will do the deed, but not for the reasons that a conservative mindset would. Quick, folks – Which flavor of government has actually killed off the most folks in the last century? What concerns me is that O will allow us to get pushed into a bad enough of a corner that there won’t be any way out that doesn’t include some really grim choices.
For instance – Nerve agents used against Seoul. Kinda predictable, really. Big O WILL react then, but if he had been a little more stalwart to begin with, it wouldn’t have been necessary. Those two women are gonna cost us a lot that we shouldn’t have to pay. The Goracle is gonna prove to be a pain in the Big Ones posterior due to the fact that he won’t be able to keep his mouth shut. See, Gore doesn’t believe anyone is smarter than he is. Now, I’m not sayin’ that O is a genius, but just wait to hear what Gore has to say. So,IMHO, these women are acting as the agents of a “foreign” power contrary to our interests. If they were sent there by Current TV without his knowledge that is one thing, but if he sent them to actually get busted at the border, then he is a treasonous fool. The Norks ain’t gonna let them get killed in the gulag, so don’t get yourselves in a wad about that, liberals. Why should any of our special forces go in harms way for such tools acting against the national, no, not just national interests, but in actual fact, the interests of civilization? Does that seem to be extreme to you? Wake up and consider the long range effects of this “hostage drama” upon western societies that have the attention spans of a starving gnat. How many of our “citizens” actually understand just how bad this drama could get? On a humourous side note, trekie fans will remember that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or even one. Strong vibrant cultures act that way, but fading, weak ones become obsessed with individual value to the detriment of the whole.
Nixon and Kissinger. They really new how to play the good cop, bad cop game. Kissinger would play good cop and say he was having trouble keeping Nixon from punching the button ’cause he really hated communist. Now we just have Keystone cop and Keystone cop.
I’ve got a couple of irons in the fire. I’m sponsoring two kids in an orphanage on the south side of Seoul. I dread the idea of a couple of volleys from all those dug in artillery pieces the Norks have aimed in that direction.
We need an aggressive crazy bastard that scares the left for diplomacy to work.
“The reporters alive or Kim and his son dead.”
Toad, The Norks don’t have enough healthy troops to fight a sustained action across the border without using chemical weapons. High Explosives won’t deliver a high enough shock value. Surely you’ve heard about the chemical tests on disidents, haven’t you? Remember, half starved troops ain’t up to a prolonged fight. Now the fact that they surely don’t have enough chemical suits for their troops don’t make no never mind, because a high casualty count works out for Kim due to the fact that he doesn’t have enough fuel or food. Dead troops don’t eat. All he has to do is kill off about half of the population of Seoul in the first 12 hours of operations. Will the Big O go nuclear to stop them? Can you move the orphans? Patty Callis alive or Rasouli dead.
Remember the incident several years ago when Dan Rather was presented a hypothetical question about being with enemy troops about to ambush Americans. Remember his answer, that he would not warn the Americans, even though he could, because he was a “neutral journalist” who must place neutrality above any national loyalty. Remember the popular outrage, and that the national media circled the wagons around Dan and affirmed his perspective. “When you become an international journalist you put aside any national loyalty.” Well, let those women live (or die) by their media principles. Those women, including the one in Iran, are not Ameicans – by their choice – they are Media. Next time send Katie Couric. Schadenfreude, anyone?
Yeah, I’m not in favor of expending any effort to rescue anyone who thinks of themselves as “Citizens of the World”. Go ask the UN for help.
Drive by… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avEeswjaqaQ
Maybe a hint of a way how to convert indoctrination centers back to educational centers.
You all might care to stop by http://www.eatliver.com/north-korea/ and view this travelogue of inside Norkie Land, photographed by a Sussian, who was allowed to visit as a tourist. And when you read his less than enthusiastic comments, it is the voice of a Russian speaking, with all that implies about his baseline.
whiskey/36
That is a serious fan’n'shite intersection. Any refs/links?
This reminds me of the infamous “Kobayashi Maru Scenario” in the “Star Trek: the Wrath of Khan”:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDE8pjiCnSw
Obama needs to ask himself: “WWKD?” (What would Kirk do?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arzeCy6yrIg
Attack with bombs of rice, include Psyop leaflets set to undermine the Nor Kor version of communism, like we have so much because we are free, but we have not been allowed to share any of our abundance with you by your government. Or Kim Jong Il is a panty waste. And stuff like how to manuals and and occasionally some young animals to raise.
Continue until the North Korean army has no reason to continue allegiance to the North Korean government. It will be cheaper by far than setting the place ablaze, and it would have the added benefit of having the Iranians quaking in their boots. “No, not the fruits of Capitalist labor, anything but that please,” would cry the Mullahs.
Oh but then president Obama would have to renounce all of his economic plans and rethink his economic philosophy. Well, never mind.
44: even starving weaklings who are determined will beat an opponent who will not fight.
NK serves some useful role for both China and Russia. Otherwise they would have shut it down long time ago.
What if the two journalists were not in NK at all but instead were in China near the NK border and were captured by NK agents and brought to NK? Do they still deserve what they have gotten? This has been suggested but not proven.
Anyone who suggests that these two Americans deserve what they get is heartless.
What happened to ‘I disagree with your beliefs but I will defend to the death your right to speak them?’
Sheesh. These are two American civilians captured by an enemy govt and convicted on trumped up charges and sentences to 12 years in the gulag and you think they deserve what they get because they don’t hold the same political beliefs that you do. That’s sick. Not to mention anti-American.
21. Subotai Bahadur: “For practical reasons as discussed above, their survival does not weigh in the balance compared to being further extorted on larger matters of national security.” I agree.
“Given that the two journalists have enlisted on the other side in our Cold Civil War; it could also be considered that as no longer being our countrymen, their continued survival is of no more concern to us than that of say the average North Korean.” Nothing could be further from the truth. I cannot imagine anything more unpatriotic and un-American. Guilty until proven innocent based on mere supposition – since when? Are you mad? Further, they are American citizens. It is, as every American ought to be well aware, none more so than those who frequent this forum, that this disgraceful seizure of American citizens is a slap in the face of the whole country. And seized not from North Korea itself, but from China, by a cross border raid, no less! Allow any American to be seized and, in effect murdered, for a sentence to hard labor in those camps means nothing less, and you not only countenance an America humiliation in the eyes of the world, but you make every other American, wherever they may be, so much more vulnerable to kidnapping by any two bit tin pot dictator with an ax to grind.
Americans traveling abroad have precious little defense. The only defense we have is our own wits and the local American Consul to advocate for us. What will you, Subotai, that the Consul inquire of any particular American who has fallen afoul of foreign law or custom what his or her political party is to decide on that basis whether to go to bat for you? Asinine. Unworthy of the name American. May as well determine which, if any of the rights guaranteed by the Bill of Rights you are entitled to based on your political stripes. This is a tyrant’s trick. I am ashamed of you, and you should be ashamed of yourself.
Rurik, 45:
I thought it was Mike Wallace not Dan Rather. No matter.
Too bad we can’t tell people who have a higher loyalty to mankind to use their Mankind passport when traveling.
And see if it gets them back in the US when they wish to return.
#54 Tamquam: “It is, as every American ought to be well aware, none more so than those who frequent this forum, that this disgraceful seizure of American citizens is a slap in the face of the whole country. And seized not from North Korea itself, but from China, by a cross border raid, no less! “
Doesn’t PRChina care about this slap to their sovereignty? Granted it’s a mosquito bite on an elephant, but still…
Actually the late Warren Zevon had it right: “Send lawyers, guns and money.”
And the Romans had it nailed too: “Better to be feared than loved.”
Alas, these fools want all the rights that come with being a US citizen, only to weaken undermine the things that preserve those rights. Sad.
NahnCee 30
St Pancake Rachel – priceless!
Ned
57 K: You may well be right. As you noted, in context this is a minor distintction. After several decades, the Lefties seem to merge into each other.
One possible answer to this situation, and to the Korean situation in general:
“Mr. Jong Il, meet Mr. Minuteman.” An introduction leading to a very short conversation. One-sided, too.
What ever happened to loyalty? Why were we warned about enemies “foreign and domestic”? When the media can’t be trusted, when they actively pursue an agenda that harms us, that is anti-American. So, while the real effect of their foolish actions are as yet unknown, but to have this distraction injected into the middle of a dangerous mess is gonna cost. True, we have to support American citizens, but the other side of the coin is that said “citizens” should support America. Can you really say that of the media today? I’m as blue collar as it gets, a techno-geek to be sure, but as most BC readers feel, there’s something rotten in Denmark. Those women may pay the bill for their untrustworthy media cohorts, but as has been said, those “chickens are coming home to roost.”
It’s hard to say exactly when our media lost my trust, but I don’t have any common cause with those who actively work to subvert our way of life. Just sayin’…….Do You trust the media with Your life? That of Your loved ones? Didn’t think so.
I will note that when an American gets into any sort of trouble in a foreign country that does not a special “status of forces” agreement or other such treaty governing that situation; that the State Department is literally limited to possibly monitoring their physical condition, and trying to insist that whatever the local law is, is applied to the American the same as the locals. There is absolutely no right to demand the release of the Americans, or that they get any special treatment.
In countries where we do not have diplomatic representation, the Americans are SOL.
The only options are for our government to either threaten force, or pay a ransom. The former is not something that is going to happen in this space-time continuum [with one possible exception noted below]. The latter does nothing but encourage repeat events. I would not bet against the latter.
As far as constitutional rights are concerned; they do not extend beyond the reach of American legal jurisdiction, and actually also not to those who are not part of the American “national community” as defined by the Supreme Court in US -v- Verdugo-Urquidez. I, and I suspect others, do not have any intention of preventing the reporters from whatever reporting that they had in mind to do, but have no intention of enabling it. Being an American overseas means that you are a target of both the Left and Muslim extremists. You take your chances.
I do not have to support such endeavors. Tolerance of others’ Freedom of Speech means that I do not have to support or agree with what is done, I just have to not prevent it. Up until recently, I did not have to support the Democratic party with my money, if I did not want to. That now is changed, with billions of dollars of our tax money being funneled through the UAW to the Democrats’ party coffers. But with that exception, I have every right to oppose what someone else does, so long as I do not violate any laws in the process.
If they crossed the North Korean border [inadvertently or otherwise, however the concept of an undefined and undefended North Korean border does not scan], they did break North Korean law. We are almost unique in the world in our welcoming attitude to foreign invaders. North Korea is not.
If they were snatched from Chinese territory, that is a matter relating to Chinese sovereignty. However, being Chinese and having some idea of both the ethnocentric contempt they have for Koreans AND the prickliness they have about national sovereignty; I cannot conceive of them allowing such without permission. And they are the puppetmasters who control North Korea. Which takes us back to the two national options noted above, with the added deterrents against us that they have a nuclear strike capability that already can reach us, and economically they truly have us by the short and curlies. Since we can’t and won’t resist extortion, and paying ransom either fiscally or geopolitically has all the downsides of Danegeld; our only rational response is to remove the value of holding them by writing them off. This is something that has been done repeatedly in reference to our military personnel. I admit that in this case my own personal preference matches national need, as it is not betraying our defenders.
It seems from a thread above this, that Algore is being sent as a semi-official envoy to the North Koreans. I am sure that they are quivering in fear. I, for one, kind of hope that they decide to keep him. Both for personal reasons, and because THAT might be the only impetus that could convince Buraq Hussein that he cannot just coddle North Korea.
Oh, stipulated, as some on the thread already know, that I am not a “nice” person.
Subotai Bahadur
“…you think they deserve what they get because they don’t hold the same political beliefs that you do …”
* * *
Utopia, where on earth did you manage to extrapolate this conclusion from what has been posted? Being a Utopian Parkway, may we also conclude that you’re a liberal, suffering the same illiterate tendencies as most liberals, including a desire to set up and knock down strawmen?
I think they deserve what they get because they did a stupid thing, went to a dangerous place, and probably said indiscreet stuff. In a Darwinian way, when you do a stupid thing — like getting too close to grizzly bears and North Korean lunatics — then you might get bitten.
Do *not* ask me or the rest of America’s taxpayers to come rescue your ass if you *choose* to get goad a grizzly bear, or to get close enough to it for it to catch you. Equally goes for North Koreans, Iranians, Russians and other unfriendly wild creatures roaming around in nature out there in the world.
NahnCee,
#22
From what I understand, yes the two journalists are Gore’s people. Therefore, there is a reasonable working assumption that whatever they intended to report was going to be anti-American.
Given that the two journalists have enlisted on the other side in our Cold Civil War; it could also be considered that as no longer being our countrymen, their continued survival is of no more concern to us than that of say the average North Korean.
#27
If those women were there to further anti-American sentiment, then let Gore get them out privately.
#46
Well, let those women live (or die) by their media principles. Those women, including the one in Iran, are not Ameicans – by their choice – they are Media. Next time send Katie Couric. Schadenfreude, anyone?
#47
Yeah, I’m not in favor of expending any effort to rescue anyone who thinks of themselves as “Citizens of the World”. Go ask the UN for help.
#63
I, for one, kind of hope that they decide to keep him [AlGore]. Both for personal reasons…
It’s clear that some of the posts in this thread indicate that these journalists deserve what they’ve gotten because the posters don’t like the political beliefs of the two ladies. And I’ll say the #56 agrees with me.
No you shouldn’t infer that I’m a liberal based on the handle Utopia Parkway. FWIW, I’ve posted at Belmont Club for probably three years. If you haven’t decided what my political views are by now I guess I haven’t made an impression on you. I know you’re not a liberal.
How on Earth did these idiots get there. They must have known what they were doing. let them do their time – just because they are journalists doesn’t give them any special rights.
During the Kosovo war 3 American soldiers managed to drive over the Yugoslav border & get captured but Milosevic was such a softie he let them go. But then Milosevic was such a softie that he never developed nukes, which he could have. Kim is tougher.