Up, up and away
A 6’4″ Eric Hagerman says he dreads flying because there simply isn’t enough space in an economy class seat for his outsized frame. More importantly, he argues there isn’t enough space in it for the ‘average’ sized person. The passenger can get into the space provided, but once there, he is practically immobile.
Most carriers fix their seats somewhere between a 31- and 34-inch pitch. Assuming a seat thickness of two inches, even the tightest spacing actually allows for 99th-percentile males to squeeze in. But once they’re in there, they can’t move. “Wiggle room,” Brauer says, “contributes to comfort in a very real way, but not in a way that is easily quantified.” For me to be able to cross my legs, I’d need 26.25 inches for my femurs, about five inches for my calves, plus two inches for the seat: a 33.25-inch pitch. That rarely happens.
That squeeze can result in a real level of discomfort. In 2006, General Formica concluded that holding enemy prisoners for more than two days in space larger than that available to passengers in economy class was unreasonable. “General Formica found that in the third case at a Special Operations outpost, near Tikrit, in April and May 2004, three detainees were held in cells 4 feet high, 4 feet long and 20 inches wide, except to use the bathroom, to be washed or to be interrogated. He concluded that two days in such confinement “would be reasonable; five to seven days would not.” Two of the detainees were held for seven days; one for two days, General Formica concluded.” The graphic below shows the space available in several economy class configurations.
A little arithmetic will show that even with a 36″ inch pitch, 3′ x 6′ x 1.48 equals 26.1 cubic feet, actually less than the ( 4′ x 4′ x 1.7′=26.7 cubic feet) space available to the detainees in Tikrit. Admittedly, flights are typically shorter than two days, but the space comparison makes Hagerman’s point. A Boeing designer explained than any incidental comfort to passengers comes from the possibility that you will be assigned a place adjacent to an empty seat or one next to a midget.
Optimizing coach comfort, he says, relies heavily on two probabilities: one, that not everyone in a row will be the same size, and two, that not every seat will be full. “In business class, one of the things you pay for is the near-zero probability that the passenger next to you will extend into your space,” Brauer says. “And the free drink.” His antidote to my pain: “Fly business class.”
Unfortunately, flying business class causes another kind of pain when the credit card bill arrives. But it highlights the core of the problem: Hagerman argues that airlines which have tried offering seating arrangements in between business class and the 26 cubic foot prison have not fared well. The world is apparently a bimodal one, in which one group of passengers are willing to pay very much more for reasonable seating while the rest have accepted the devil’s bargain of cramped seating in exchange for lower cost. In the end, we can always do something about cramped seating, as long as we’re willing to pay for it.
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My wife and I own and fly a Burt Rutan VariEze composite canard homebuilt light plane. It has approximately the accommodation room of a Formula 1 racing car for pilot and passenger, with the seats inclined way back. The cabin is about 21 inches wide, with front/rear tandem seating.
It is very comfortable for several hours at a time, the plane costs far less than many automobiles in terms of acquisition, maintenance and insurance. It gets 31 MPG at 175 MPH. It has been proven that within the continental U.S., this sort of plane will get you there before an airliner will. By the time airline passengers have passed through security lines, we are more than 300 miles away, if we leave our house to go to the airport at the same time.
We don’t wait in security lines, we leave and arrive when we want to, but we cannot fly over oceans. And, in our little “one-airplane airline” knives are mandatory and guns are optional.
I have trouble squeezing my 6’4″ frame into coach class too. Worse, when the guy in front of me reclines his seat, I can’t even use a laptop on my tray table (oh, and isn’t it a joy when he reclines his seat while I have a cup of ginger ale on the tray). It’s even a bit tight to read a paperpack.
For this and other reasons, including the TSA, I really have come to hate flying. I love travelling, but hate flying. I drive anywhere within eight hundred miles now.
I am baffled by the failure of airlines trying to price in between, and am somewhat skeptical. I would gladly pay a little more money for a little more space. First, I think most airlines are half a breath away from bankrupt most of the time anyway. Second, most airlines seem to have lost any brand distinction. What’s the difference between United, American, and US Air? The logo painted on the tail? None of the booking services mention seating space, comfort, or service level when searching for a flight. They just list the price, flight times and number of stops. If an airline is offering 10% more room at a 5% higher price, their customers are just going to see the higher price.
A blue ocean strategy has to make customers aware of the difference, otherwise it just looks like a strange, oddly priced version of the red ocean competitors.
In 2006, General Formica concluded that holding enemy prisoners for more than two days in space larger than that available to passengers in economy class was unreasonable
Does Admiral Linoleum concur? Sorry, couldn’t resist.
Yes, Reloader449, but you have freedom. The question worrying all of us is, “For the next four years can you [we] keep it”?
JMH,Wouldn’t it be “Admiral Granite”?
I’ve come to dread those really long ones. LA – Singapore, guaranteed to turn you into a zombie. Presumably unlike Tikrit you can get a gin and tonic but that is a very small consolation. I look out the window and imagine a bygone American President or Matson ocean liner far below, cutting through the Pacific swell. Real china, crystal, a pool and skeet shooting off the fantail. Sign me up.
I came to the conclusion long ago that a person had more room in a coffin than in the average coach class seat. Unfortunately, the cost of business class is almost three times the cost of coach. It’s not completely out of range but the cost seems excessive for the small amount of advantage.
What seems worse is that airlines have acknowledged and accepted the fact that their customers are utilizing their services only as a matter of absolute necessity, not because they have the slightest shred of liking for them. The number of people who hate the airlines–all airlines–is legion. JMH is only one of very many who would much prefer driving to flying and take that choice every chance they get.
One of the reasons they are always on the cusp of bankruptcy is because any business model utilizing customers who hate and despise you as your target clientele is bound to sooner or later run aground on the shoals of anger. God help the airline who ends up in front of an American jury to determine the size of a punitive award. They might as well save the legal costs and go straight to bankruptcy. I suspect the jurors would be absolutely gleeful at the prospect of giving a bit of payback to an industry that has treated them so poorly for the last thirty years.
I recently flew and was upgraded to 1st class. The service was okay, the meal was adequate and the seat space was great.
What I was reminded of, was that the service that I had during that flight was the exact same service (and quality of meal) that was available on economy class 20 years ago. What will things be like 20 years from now?
Reloader449
Ok, I know I’m green with envy. Having owned two Lotus auto’s AND knowing how to spell Rutan … yep I’m jealous.
I use to fly a Great Lakes biplane but had to quit when the owner located it.
Mr. Bother is a usually-cheerful 350lb and when I married him I reconciled myself to sitting in the center seat for the rest of my life. Fortunately for me his shoulder is in just the right place to rest my head, but if the seat on my other side also contains a man with cliffs-for-shoulders, I’m in a world of hurt.
I say usually-cheerful because by the time we get past TSA and into the plane he’s so grumpy I don’t know what he’ll say so some innocent airline employee (I don’t believe there are any innocent TSA employees). I think Reloader 449 has the right idea.
Having seen this trend coming, and forward thinker that I am, I conspired with fate to have two should-have-been-fatal motorcycle accidents resulting in my losing three inches in height and narrowed an inch at each shoulder.
Those airline bastards are going to have to get up pret-ty early in the morning to outfox this think-outside-the-box kinda of guy.
Sadly, Mr Bother would over-gross a Vari-eze all by himself — it’s an airplane for small people.
As a 6’2″ 290lb man myself, I recognize that there are a lot of times in life where the extra size
is a good thing. Even though I am fairly meek in personality, I hold my own in business meetings
just because, well, a big guy is a bit intimidating. It’s just a fact.
The fact that coach airline seats are uncomfortable is just the other side of the coin. I can live with
that.
It’s all in the mind. Loosen up your shoelaces, learn to love the tiny few inches you have freedom within. Plan your escape from whatever job has screwed you into this torture. But for now, read a book or otherwise enter dreamtime, get past now without letting it bug you.
Just another problem for Obama to solve, once he gets around to taking over the airlines. Spacious seating will be mandated, yet somehow planes will hold even more passengers.
He can do it. After all, he’s Wile E. Obama, SUPER genius.
He can do anything. As proof I offer you the fact that the oceans have stopped rising. Or continued to not rise. Or something.
He can do it. After all, he’s Wile E. Obama, SUPER genius.
He’s also first-rate when it comes to using planes to scare the bejebus out of people.
Pleeaaasseee! At 5’8″ (on a good day) I am well aware of the fame, the fortune, the attention, the trust, the women, etc., etc. that larger men get over those of us in the middle or the wrong side of the distribution curve. Qwitcher bitchin’, as Ann Landers used to say.
Having said that, however, we should all reach into our pockets and fill the tip jar so our most excellent host can fly business class every so often.
Agreed, flying is no where near as fun as it was. I fly about once a month out of the east coast and have noticed what has to be a concerted effort by the TSA folk to be pleasant and understanding. I still think a photo of the WTC towers under attack should be at every screening site- rightous anger can be a good thing.
And the bimodal distribution of passengers is probably accurate. As flying has become a commodity service price will be the driver for many of us; for fewer others, being away from the rabble in the back is worth the business class fare. Knowing I won’t be able to do any productive activity on the plane, I schedule it as sleep time.
JMH,Wouldn’t it be “Admiral Granite”?
No, Colonel Granite got terribly seasick as a child, so he joined the Army. Artillery, I believe. But I can understand your confusion. People frequently get the two mixed up, always taking the Admiral for Granite.
And Wile E. Obama gets all his gear from
Aceme, too.
Any of yous guys try running an airline lately, dealing with the FAA?
It takes a stupefying level of Genius to spend half a trillion dollars over four decades to make the experience of flying in a passenger airliner now less pleasant than it was to travel by bus in the 1960′s.
United Economy Plus is a decent option for long-legged folks (6’3″ here) – 38″ spacing for maybe 10-25% more than the base ticket price. They’ve become my preferred carrier because of this. Jet Blue is decent too, but flies such limited routes that I don’t have much occasion to use them. I used to have good success asking for exit row seating, but more and more that’s becoming a reserved perk for high-mileage customers.
I wouldn’t be entirely surprised to see an ADA legal challenge to the airlines on behalf of passengers at the high end of the size/dimension curves, eventually. Apparently Canada is already requiring airlines to provide an extra seat at no charge for obese customers.
As an independent contractor I worked on designing airline seats for a small seat manufacturer in San Diego for British airways to go on a 777. They were close pitched and people did not like them according to the reviews. 10 years earlier I worked on the design of a Greyhound bus interior for an industrial design firm for TMC. I talked to a bus driver and he hated it… the MC10. It sucks to pour your heart out into a design and the consumer hates it. There has been a consistent reason over the years that I could site, the new flock of money grubbing MBA’s have been sucking the life blood out of the American Way as they have sold out our market value to the global economy over the years but what would the use of that be to the wunderkinds? It takes decades to destroy a rich dream. They have left nothing left in tact.
One word… THROMBOSIS.
When I was with Dad flying Chicago-Munich on a cramped and crowded A-340, I remarked that a person could on the other hand be flying Little Rock, Arkansas to Novi Sad, Serbia. Round trip. Non stop. Multiple inflight refuelings along the way. I guess with a crew of only 2 there is more solitude, but is there more space?
“it’s an airplane for small people.”
I am stupid enough to have seriously contemplated building my own aircraft,,, found out, eventually, that experimental aircraft means very small plane built for midgets. I eventually decided to design and build my own and then I woke up and came to my senses and decided to race motorcycles instead. Yeah, I am a friggin genius.
I am 6’6″ 270lbs… not built for ballet or speed.
In his book Stranger to the Ground, Richard Bach said that the perfect torture device would be to put a person in an F-84F cockpit for several hours. Feet in tunnels on rudder pedals so that they cannot be moved very much. Seated in a chair without padding. A helmet on his head and sticky oxygen mask on his face. Clothed in a coverall, with various things attached in ways that seem to maximize the discomfort. I have not flown in jets of that vintage very much, a T-33A and a T-37, but I have to admit that it was not very comfortable for even short periods. And that does not consider the effects of airsickness and g-loads.
With my current aircraft I sit in comfort, don’t have to worry about rudder pedals, and I can open the canopy any time I wish. I can’t imagine wanting to fly an airplane that you can’t get all the fresh air you want. A friend of mine is getting ready to fly a homebuilt pusher with a 600 HP turbine engine. I am helping him with it but never plan to ride in it; far too confined.
If the U.N. wants to end torture they should mandate that fighter aircraft be rolled back to about the 1934 level of technology. Anything later than that gets too uncomfortable.
RWE,
Somehow 600hp tubine and small don’t seem to compute.
All ways admired the Steens Skybolt. TIO540 with inverted lubrication sys. Pitts extra long and tall.
Shouldn’t some pique be directed towards the engineers at Boeing, too, who actually design the space the airlines then cram us into? I’m wondering if average Americans are larger than they were 50 years ago, and the design of passenger planes simply have not evolved along with the human frame.
NahnCee,
Boeing delivers an aircraft with rails and each carrier decides what the pitch shall be… ‘course Boeing is populated by a bunch of blowhards, but thier congressmen unlike some, remain bought-off.
Wretchard: The illustration you used above is from an NYTimes article [linked below], where it was revealed that Airbus had been discussing standing room with some Asian airlines. They disavowed it and claimed it was a joke, but the article was not dated April 25 not April 1.
“One Day, That Economy Ticket May Buy You a Place to Stand” by Christopher Elliott in the NYTimes on April 25, 2006:
The airlines have come up with a new answer to an old question: How many passengers can be squeezed into economy class? A lot more, it turns out, especially if an idea still in the early stage should catch on: standing-room-only “seats.”
Airbus has been quietly pitching the standing-room-only option to Asian carriers, though none have agreed to it yet. Passengers in the standing section would be propped against a padded backboard, held in place with a harness, according to experts who have seen a proposal.
But even short of that option, carriers have been slipping another row or two of seats into coach by exploiting stronger, lighter materials developed by seat manufacturers that allow for slimmer seatbacks. The thinner seats theoretically could be used to give passengers more legroom but, in practice, the airlines have been keeping the amount of space between rows the same, to accommodate additional rows. The result is an additional 6 seats on a typical Boeing 737, for a total of 156, and as many as 12 new seats on a Boeing 757, for a total of 200.
* * *
Perhaps the most extraordinary example of a new jet that could accommodate features unheard of previously is the Airbus A380. There is so much available room on the superjumbo that Virgin Atlantic Airways is even considering placing a beauty salon in its premium-class section. … The first A380 is scheduled to be delivered later this year. With a typical configuration, the A380 will accommodate about 500 passengers. But with standing-room-only seats, the same plane could conceivably fit in 853 passengers, the maximum it would be permitted to carry.
* * *
Boeing is under similar pressure to squeeze more seats onto its newest aircraft, the midsize Boeing 787. Some airlines are planning to space the seats just 30 inches apart from front to back, or about one inch less than the current average. And rather than installing eight seats across the two aisles, which would afford passengers additional elbow room, more than half of Boeing’s airline customers have opted for a nine-abreast configuration in the main cabin …
Some frequent fliers, asked about the slimmer seats, said they feared that the result would be tighter quarters. Some expressed concerns about sharing a cabin with even more passengers and increasing the risk of contracting a communicable disease. Others were worried about even more passengers sharing the already-tight overhead bin space.
oh yeah, notice the 25″ pitch in the standing option. in the picture I opt to stand at this point. Beets thrombosis.
18. Scythianeedle:
Now that is truly funny….bravo
I think what this shows is that General Formica doesn’t know what he is talking about.
If people willing pay money to fit into this space for an extended period, then being confined to a larger space as a prisoner is really not so bad after all.
Do they now have “business class” standard for prisoners?
Having worked in aviation for a decade and a half now, I strongly suggest brain transplants
for most airline executives.
All of the “legacy” airlines need to carry fewer passengers, at higher per capita tickets
for more total revenue. Not that hard to arrange, once the public gets by that initial
assumption that they should always buy the cheapest thing available. Just means that some folks charge more than others. Big deal.
In stead, they cram more seats onto the plane,
lower their (very restrictive) fares to less than what Southwest charges in order to oversell the overcrowded flights. Then they
try to make up for the lower fare by charging for bags ($15 the first, $25 the second, each direction). The results include more and more carry-ons compounding the cabin conditions.
What can the traveler do? Try to find aircraft that do NOT have a Business/First class section. That helps out the overall comfort of the remainder of the plane.
Secondly, manipulate your computer/website
to show one-way flights in scheduled order of departure, print out this information to keep it handy and then do the same for the return leg.
Figure out which flights have alternate availability and which ones have the lowest
discomfort time.
Then and only then start booking yourself,
book by the best flight and, if not outrageous, ignore the price. Do NOT grab the cheapest thing available. You will regret it more often than not.
Also, it is often advisable to go a day before and spring for a hotel room, rather than imitate a sardine.
I just got back from a trip to Canuckistan.
Took Westjet there and back. Can recommend them. They are Southwestish in nature and bags fly free (two per pax, 50 pounds each).
I got the middle seat both ways. A touch tight on my 285lb posterior but not excessivley so. Pitch adequate for my 6’2″ (and shrapnel-infested) legs, so while it warn’t my easy chair, I cannot say I suffered.
Westjest left a good taste in the mouth.
Aboot time, eh?
The average American takes in stride
When flying across the Continental divide
A seat too small for a Southwest Injun
So why aren’t we United in firm opposition?
It’s because the Delta we pay in price
Is too much for us – Airways yet entice
Customers out to the Northwest Angle
For $10 off, though we fly in a mangle.
— —
L3
Annoy Mouse:
Oh, that 600 HP turbine job is not small. It has a 4 seat cabin, although The point of the spear where the pilots sit is pretty much on the itty bitty side. It takes about 15 min and the aid of a chiropractor to get into it. But there is no way to open up and get some air without dropping the door, and ventilation capabilities would embarass a 1963 VW Bug. I used to work on aircraft air cond and pressurization systems, and think it totally inadequate in that respect, but my friend does not want to spend money and propulsive power on creature comnforts.
A friend of mine has a Steen Skybolt. He is building an RV-8. I have an AL airplane and I am building a Pitts. If you have AL you have to build tube and fabric, or vice versa. It’s the law.
To get from theres
unto heres
we stick our knees
into our ears
and skip across the atmospheres
JMH/15; LOL –of course that borders criminal, but suture self
15. JMH Cool. [grins] My mistake. I always confuse Col. Granite with Col. Wheat. He’s a pip, in my book. His first name is “Bud”.
Flying is no fun for smaller sized people, etither.
Trust me, I am 5’1″.
18. Scythianeedle
Half a trillion over 4 decades, uh? How soon will Obama blow it all once he gets his hands on airline industry (Too Big to Fail)?
I fly Jet Blue or Virgin America from SFO when I go to the East Coast. VA seems to be a bit roomier, or maybe it’s just the onboard ambiance. I hate transcontinental flights. I always want a window seat as I still fascinated by what’s below even after many, many trips. But I avoid liquids as much as I can so I don’t have to hit the head any more than necessary.
Last trip to Rome, I broke it into two legs; SF-JFK and then to Rome. Better than 11 hours to London for the plane change.
Is it just me, or do others find that the Airbus has more leg room in coach than Boeing? Seems to me it does.
I hate flying – I drive when I can. I feel like I’m treated like cattle. I’m nickled and dimed on petty amenities, the overhead compartment is always jammed, and the rows are too close together.
Bill
http://willstuff.wordpress.com
Dupe of 27 sorry.
I my days riding Amtrak long-haul trains, I noticed two set of passengers that airlines would never steal:
1) the clinically neurotic and
2) the clinically obese
Personally, I hoard codeine or vicodin for use on those long flights. It takes a strong pain killer to put up with the physical misery.
While I understand the economics of the new baggage charges, what pisses me is when the flight attendents start bitching at the passengers for taking too long to stow their carry-ons in the limited space available.
What did they expect?
Still, for all our griping, consider our ancestors who walked or rode a horse across the country.
We’re actually witnessing a miracle of efficiency. Airlines are an impossible industry; it’s simply not realistic to ferry passengers all about the globe at 600 mph (consuming boatloads of expensive high grade fuel in the process) and earn a profit, all the while charging a price the median wage earner is willing to pay. As a result, airlines depend on state subsidies an on cutting cost wherever possible. The fact that we have a commercial airline industry at all is due only to the taxes we pay and the misery we endure in the cabin, not to mention the ingenuity of the engineers who continue to wring cheaper and better solutions to problems of heavier-than-air flight out of their highly constrained budgets. If oil ever goes to $140/barrel again and remains there, all commercial aviation will be sayonara.
There’s a big difference between flying domestic and flying international. I’m 6’6″ 270 lbs and have run up millions of air miles flying all over the world. For many years I was lucky to be able to fly first or business class and when on Singapore Airlines, Cathay Pacific, ThaiAir, Emerits, and most of the European airlines it was an enjoyable experience with lots of leg room, great meals, free drinks and interesting people. In the 90′s, Philippine Airlines used to fly a route from LA to Hono and then to Manila. PAL had “sky bunks” for first class and the trip from Hono to Manila was a dream with beautiful PAL stew’s to tuck the passenger into a comfortable bunk upstairs on the ’47 upper deck for the 9 hour trip. I never felt better on arrival then after one of those PAL flights! These days I’m in steerage with the hoy poloy and the whole experience is worse than Greyhound in the 60′s.
At least on a Greyhound in the sixties, one could sneak a joint in the restroom.
That’s a DOUBLE federal felony now.
I was recently relocated from Anchorage, AK to the Washington, DC area.
I chose to drive the 4,300-ish miles. In fact, the odometer read 8,586 miles when I pulled in the other day, after 29 days on the road.
My household goods beat me here by a few days. I traveled well over 1,000 miles on two-lane highways — and that’s just in the lower-48. Never drove tired; some days 200 miles, some days 700 miles. [hint: the speed limit in the western states is roughly 0.1 Mach]
Not that I’m adding much to the discussion.
The new Government Mandatory Putt-Putt in our near future is gonna play hell on those long overland trips. Painkillers are probably a good idea.
Personally I gave up flying except for business or emergencies to drive instead. It was the hassle factor of security that decided me after 9/11. Rather take two day to drive to Miami than fly 2 hr.