Up to a hundred Palestinians in Gaza who have defied house arrest orders have been tortured in children’s hospitals and schools converted into interrogation centers. People have been shot in the legs or had their hands broken. The campaign has been described as a “new massacre”. One victim had his eyes put out. No one was safe from the torturers, not even those attending funerals. When is will the UN act to put a stop to this horror? Won’t President Obama intervene to stop these barbaric acts? Aren’t international human rights monitors going to put a stop to this? When will War Crimes charges be preferred against the perpetrators?
Never.
Why? Because Hama is in charge of the torture and their victims are simply Fatah members. If it were Israel who had done these things, well then … But since it’s Hamas, the same Hamas for whom thousands have been marching in ‘solidarity’, it’s a non-story. The Jersualem Post cites reports from Fatah members describing the events.
The eyewitnesses said that a children’s hospital and a mental health center in Gaza City, as well as a number of school buildings in Khan Yunis and Rafah, were among the places that Hamas had turned into “torture centers.”
A Fatah activist in Gaza City claimed that as many as 80 members of his faction were either shot in the legs or had their hands broken for allegedly defying Hamas’s house-arrest orders.”What’s happening in the Gaza Strip is a new massacre that is being carried out by Hamas against Fatah,” he said. “Where were these [Hamas] cowards when the Israeli army was here?”
Why, waiting for the ceasefire, of course. That turns out to have its own costs, even though they are not widely recognized. But when the cost-benefit of leaving Hamas in posession of Gaza was calculated, was the price of reprisal included in the bill? Did anyone take into account how many people, who might otherwise have been open to negotiating peace, have now decided it will never be worth the risk. In other words, is it possible that ceasefires which leave the aggressor in possession of the field may have the effect of undermining genuine peace rather than promoting it?
In another strategic world, the Israeli incursion into Gaza would be create an opportunity for peace akin to those which sprang into existence in the latter parts of the Second World War. The recent move Valkyrie is a reminder that the defeat of extremists — like Hitler — could empower the real moderate elements. The Strategy Page believes that Hamas was sorely wounded in the last attacks, mostly in the initial sorties.
January 21, 2009: Hamas thought they were invulnerable to Israeli attack. By placing so many of their military and government facilities in densely populated residential neighborhoods, they believed any Israeli bombing or shelling would cause high, and politically unacceptable, civilian losses. But the Israelis used surprise, more precision than expected, and innovations like calling civilians in the target area and telling them to get out before the bombs hit nearby. As a result, most of the 1,300 Palestinian dead were Hamas personnel, and nearly all the damaged structures were those used by Hamas.
This should have provided a golden opportunity not only to remove the main roadblock to a negotiated settlement, but to lift the yoke of oppression and hardship from the Palestinians. The defeat of Hamas would have made it easier to open the border with Egypt; easier to solve the terrible dilemma of curtailing Iranian arms shipments while allowing the free passage of supplies for civilian use.
However it now seems likely that Hamas will not only be saved from destruction, but given vast monies for reconstruction, funds which are most likely to be used to torture its opponents and prepare for the next war. This is the peace process, Middle Eastern style.
Well, maybe Hamas finally heard that the Royal Victoria Hospital in Belfast has a reputation as one of the best emergency rooms for treating gun shots and restoring mobility to shattered kneecaps in the world. And Hamas wanted Shifa Hospital in Gaza to be able to acquire the same type of reputation.
Imagine that. The Establishment Media, the U.N., and the Establishment complicit in the crimes of Hamas.
Only Israel and America are capable of war crimes in our new Alice in Wonderland world….
Hamas can fling Fatah from rooftops, Lebanon can LEVEL a complete Palestinian Camp (Nahr el-Bared), Russia can bomb Chechnya into dust, China can harvest organs from political prisoners on demand, Saddam can pay for suicide bombers and feed people in wood chippers, UN soldiers can rape the people they are sent to protect, Arabs in Sudan can murder hundreds of thousands, Mugabe can turn an advanced country into a starvation & disease center of the world, Palestinians can shoot THOUSANDS of rockets at civilians but all of that PALES against the international crimes against humanity that the USA and Israel commit…
the deck is loaded, the looking glass has been warped…
Yes it’s Alice in wonderland…
I’m browsing through parts of Jasper Holmes’ memoir of his signals intelligence days during the early days of the Pacific War, Double-Edged Secrets. To the question, why didn’t the codebreakers give warning of the attack on Pearl Harbor, at least part of the answer is that it didn’t fit in with their assumptions. Up to the morning of December 7, there was a strong case for assuming that the Japanese would strike at the East Indies because they were after the oil, weren’t they?
Similarly, we don’t see the Hamas atrocities for what they are because theis data is filtered out. It’s discounted, whether for reasons of racism, ideology or simple carelessness is a matter for conjecture. But for whatever reasons, things are assigned a value according to our own prejudices.
The irony is that many honest and idealistic people who would recoil at the idea of causing torture by commission are completely indifferent to causing it by ommission. It might have been objectionable to support Lon Nol, but what Pol Pot did was none of our affair. Israel must not strike Hamas without due process. If Hamas operates torture factories, that’s not our department. I think people believe this not out of evil or perversity, but simply because they cannot weigh human deaths on the same scale.
My parents lived through the Battle of Manila, which cost 100,000 civilian lives. But nobody remembers it, not even when technically those 100K dead were people who had sworn allegiance to the US flag. But everyone sheds a tear over Hiroshima, which killed 80,000 people. Some dead are more equal than others.
What does the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture have to say about all this? Well, yesterday he called for the prosecution of Bush and perhaps Rumsfeld for torturing prisoners at Guantanamo. The mindset of these people is that unless America is perfect (that is, it is able to meet the conflicting expectations of every do-gooder in the world), the rest of the world can be excused of anything.
It’s Muslim on Muslim violence. Unfortunately, at the upper political levels in the world, no one gives a shit about that. There is nothing to be gained by the leadership of the U.N. or by the leadership of the world’s nations from taking a stand on it. And the fact that it’s the Palestinians makes that doubly true.
It’s brand loyalty. Hamas is probably the first state actors whose very existence has been lofted on the airways of an intellectually lazy media. Hamas is ready to start the bawling for the cameras, right… 3-2-1 now; Action! Get the thugs in London, Madrid and San Francisco to don their exotic garb and green flags, climb a sacred edifice and get the show on the road. Style beats substance in the new clear war.
Israeli pacifism was New Coke. Let’s welcome back Classic Coke.
Might leaving Hamas in power in Gaza eventually sour the people of Gaza on them?
It seems to me that real experience with Hamas in power is the best hope we have for the Palestinian people to understand what monsters they are and finally, forcefully reject them.
It wasn’t seen by AP, AFP, Raeters, MSNBC or CNN.
Therefore it never happened; the evidence does not exist.
Funny. “Torture is bad and doesnt work.” Why is it so popular?
1. Provides inexpensive terror thru example
2. Cheap punishment (prisons unnecessary)
3. Effective intelligence gathering from untrained population.
It works.
The transformation of the arab peasantry into moslem fedayeen and then into the urban mass of Gaza and other cities was an unintended consequence of Islam. Mohammed’s original intent was that the Moslems would be an elite force of parasites living off the labor of dhimmis. Unfortunately he was as poor an economist as he was a theologian. He was however a good psychiatrist, psychotics often are. Given the relentless degradation that non-Moslems were subjected to the masses converted within a few generations. Given that Islam destroys the creative and sympathetic impulses necessary for economic growth while also removing the incentives for the dhimmis to invest in wealth generation outside of trade the stagnation of the urban societies was inevitable. The rejection of the foreigners of al-Qaeda by the elites of Anbar does not provide a good model that we can count on for Gaza. For the Gazans to be a population that can serve as a viable source of law rejecting totalitarian movements like Hamas they would need to be reoccupied and reeducated for at least 2 generations. Moses had to lead the children of Israel into the desert for 40 years to burn off the habits of slavery. The children of Ishmael will need no less.
The transformation of Germany only happened because the totalitarian regime had while widespread in its influence not sunk very deep into the culture after only 12 years. Japan’s transformation was more interesting. Possibly the rapid changes brought about by industrialization within 2 generations had created an unusually flexible psyche that when combined with the shock of total defeat had allowed for the installation of new democratic values.
I am left to hope that the Israelis follow the reconstruction money very carefully as it flows back into Gaza. This will show them the leadership as those greedy bastards can’t keep their hands out of the pie.
That way when the next Kassam gets fire (and it will, rather soon I’d wager) they can cry “Foul!” and launch some very specific strikes at the head of the snake. As shown in Iraq, when you keep killing the guy in charge the quality of leadership goes down.
I also try to help Fatah get the word out that Hamas brought on the latest invasion and then fled; cowards and dogs. Not that Fatah is a good and reliable friend, they just seem slightly less insane than Hamas.
Surely someone can get a small wireless video camera into one of these facilities.
On a related matter. Whatever happened the the CIA/Palestinian connection. They were working with the palestinian government.
I urge you to look to the history of Operation Defense Shield in 2002 and some of its successor operations like Determined Path, as these were part of a successful strategy.
1. Israel took massive action after long restraint, showing successes in urban warfare from tactics like swarming that no one expected.
2. Israel was accused of war crimes with our favorite clown and White House visitor calling operations in Jenin “Jeningrad.”
3. International pressure seemed to compel Israeli withdrawal after Defense Shield.
4. Arafat declared victory.
5. Palestinians on the West Bank seemed to rally to Arafat and killed “collaborators”
6. Israel repeated as necessary.
7. Arafat seemingly died a hero, but his intifada and legacy died such a quiet death that it is barely noticed. People in the al-Aqsa Matryrs brigade have acknowledged that the intifada is over because Israel defeated it.
Israel knew going in that Hamas would survive, declare victory, hold rallies and kill suspected collaborators. So much the better that the Palestinians embrace the failure as their own so that they can have the embrace rubbed in their faces. The more they do so, the more dispiriting it will be when they finally become exhausted from it all as on the West Bank. They will continue to do the dance of supporting Hamas when under they fire rockets and Israel fires back harder, but it will become a curse like the tragic fairy tale about the Red Shoes.
The question is: do we recognize the fairy tale in action and do we have the patience to watch?
The Jerusalem Post article includes this information:
… Hamas’s security forces had also confiscated cellular phones and computers belonging to thousands of local Fatah members and supporters.
These confiscations will enable Hamas to develop a detailed and comprehensive analysis of all communications done by Fatah members. Combined with the information obtained by torturing Fatah members, Hamas should be able to crush Fatah completely in Gaza very quickly.
I assume that some Fatah members in Gaza indeed had been informing Israel about the locations of Hamas personnel, facilities and equipment in Gaza. Hamas might be able to assemble a convincing dossier about such Fatah treason and use that information to blackmail or expose other Fatah members.
In these circumstances, what will be Hamas’s next steps toward undermining Fatah on the West Bank?
OT – Darn! It feels good to be right (at least partially)!
Russia and neighboring Central Asian nations have agreed to let supplies pass through their territory to American soldiers in Afghanistan, lessening Washington’s dependence on dangerous routes through Pakistan, a top U.S. commander said Tuesday.
Did not expect Russia would work out.
For internal terror to work, the terrorizer must have a monopoly on terror. Hamas still has two major problems: everyone knows that Israel can target the Hamas thugs whenever in the mood and the dead “collaborators” have cousins and more cousins who hold grudges. On Arab websites so of the most vitriolic anti-Hamas comments came from other Palestinians. If I were forced to make a prediction, it would be that if Hamas executes all suspected collaborators, there will still be more collaborators.
Hamas might be able to assemble a convincing dossier about such Fatah treason and use that information to blackmail or expose other Fatah members.
Hmm, isn’t ‘treason’ an activist disloyalty to one’s country, not restricted to one mere faction of it? Or if ‘treason’ is simply disloyalty to the ruling tribe, isn’t that a civil war?
You forget that the Palestinians voted FOR Hamas. Therefore, one concludes that they must like torture, if not for themselves, then for their neighbors.
Everything that happens to the dreadful Palestinians (including Fatah) they asked for and brought upon themselves. I have no sympathy for ANY of them and no desire to intercede, either when Israel goes in and stomps around a bit or when they get a little rough with each other internally.
“Some dead are more equal than others.”
You take down two of our buildings. We’ll take down two of your countries. That sounds about right, equally.
Where do the numbers of Pali dead quoted in the press come from? Do they not come from hamas? If so why are they taken at face value? Did we not learn anything from Jenin?
It’s important to remember the obvious truth that, while the Israelis are not technically actually performing the torture, they are nonetheless responsible for it.
Well, they share responsibility with the US, I mean. Because abu ghraib abu ghraib abu white phosphorus abu ghraib gitmo. And, um, Rumsfeld.
@ 24. Steve Skubinna
You’ve forgotten depleted uranium. Zionist mind rays, too. And penile shrinkage chemicals in water supply.
…and the unknown-to-science poison that Israel used to kill Arafat …
2×4 you might be on to something, maybe an anti-Viagra. No more baby homicide bombers.
And hubris. Lots of hubris, plus cowboy mentality. But the cowboy is gone now, huh?
Replaced by the machine politician (or Lightworker, take your pick) from South Chicago. You wonder if those Chicago machine politicians will more clearly recognize the tactics of Hamas (as pragmatic power politics) and more easily turn a blind eye to their reprehensible behaviour.
Take two Abu Ghraib’s, and call back in 2012.
No question Hamas is horrific – but – just wondering – why would one accept the testimony of Fatah guys w/o skepticism?…’Bout ime for a rethink ’round about here, no? – This is SECOND time more than few Clubbers thought the IDF might be on the verge of SOLVING t’ings – Didn’t happen. Won’t happen?
LifeOfTheMind:
My understanding is that the Japanese had established a representative government as part of the Meiji Restoration, but through a series of assassinations, etc, factions in the military had usurped power.
So the post-war occupation was, in large part, restoring civilian government where it had previously existed.
Benj. A good point.
1. Fatah looks weak in these reports. Goes against the local grain, so to speak, so the likelihood is it is really that bad.
2. The reports of Hamas activities against Fatah from the time of takeover have been verified, including the “flying lessons”. For the most part by PHRW, which may be quite biased against Israel, but as violations in PA/Gaza go, they were always rather reliable, even in time of Arafat’s firm grip, and by Israelis when they rescued the contingent of Fatah members that managed to escape from Gaza.
3. Hamas tends to use documentaries (pics/videos) of their deeds to gloat about their prowes in whacking Fatah, which serves two purposes–giving them a hard on and provides exemplary education for locals.
So, while keeping a salt shaker handy, I think that there was not much fudging going on, either way, and the reports are fairly representative of what is going on.
Cant believe Hamas, cant believe Fatah, and told that I cant believe the Juice but hey I’m white and I learned yesterday that I have to “embrace whats right”.
Benj, to address your second point…
Olmert/Livni/Barak stated that the objective has been achieved. I don’t recall any other objective beside stopping or reduction of rocket barrages, and establishing long term modus operandi (you bfire rockets, we respond). Wiping out Hamas was a wishful thinking wide and far but that may not have been an objective of incursion, or an objective that was on the table for the op.
1. Wiping out Hamas was not achievable in the short time span for the op. Maybe at some future point, with preference of Gazooks helping themselves if possible.
2. It is probably in Israel interest for Hamas and Fatah fighting each other = less energy for attacka on Israel.
3. Granted, the situation in Gaza is very lopsided, in Hamas favor. Question is to what degree it was predictable that Hamas will lash out on locals to cover their impotence vis-a-vis Israel. Perhaps it was somewhat predictable, but it does not mean Israel has any responsibility for Hamas behavior (torture of Fatah members).
4. Rumors (and even some reports from independent observers) are that discontent is brewing amongst general Gazook population and people well know where the Hamas leadership was hiding. The result is that Hamas is now seen as thuggish cowards.
Perhaps that was one of the objectives.
#23, JAK
We saw the same false casualty reports during the great Tsunami, and these numbers were used to slander my country’s level of humanitarian assistance.
It worked this way:
1. Anti-American “Human Rights groups” gave CNN inflated death-tolls.
2. CNN propagated these tolls.
3. These tolls were parroted by UN agencies.
4. UN personnel called Americans (and by extension, GW Bush) “stingy.”
This tactic has been used often since then. It was used in the so-called “Jenin Massacre,” it was employed in Iraq – both during the baby-formula debacle and Operation Iraqi Freedom, and it was played out in New Orleans after Katrina.
Now, it is on display in Gaza. Seems, if you have a Journo-credential, you are dumb to this ploy: another argument against professional credential-ism. It makes an industry corrupt.
It’s time to go back to my original sig…. Pork Rinds For Allah…..
What bullets wont do words can…
I think we need to spread the rumor that the IDF and the West now have a new teflon coated bullet that contains a sack of pig’s blood. Thus sending any and all moslems to HELL if they are hit by the west’s ammo…
Time to USE humiliation as a weapon..
Hammass is where it is due to an election in Gaza. Now it has power to crush its rival Fatah. What Hammass should realize is that so-called Palestinians have been the stooges of Egypt, Saudi, and Syria, and that you can find no stronger ethnic resentment of “Palestinian” Arabs than by their “neighbors” (Egypt, Saudi, Syria, etc).
Withdrawl from Gaza came with the mandate for elections, and now that election has produced this subsequent slaughter of its own people, now considered “collaborators” by these neo-nazi hammass killers. Fatah comprises what remained of Araphats PLO, which brought ethnic cleansing to Lebanon in the 70′s, and to places such as Bethlehem in recent times.
The left says democracy doesn’t work in muslim lands. or does it?
This puts paid to the notion of any “Dar as- Salaam or a “house of peace” in the event that there is no longer any form of polytheism (Hindu, for example), or heretic monotheisms (Christianity, Judaism, or Bhuddism): because they will then start, as this and numerous examples demonstrate, that they will just start fighting each other, over anything, ethnic differences, you name it.
And can you imagine the inevitable showdown between shia (considered to be polytheism by our sunni fiends) and sunni?
Shia, as a dominant force seems confined to Iran, but that is still pretty substantial real estate. They probably see themselves as the one all hemmed in, the victims of oppression.
On the other hand, in multi-ethnic Iraq, a shia (arab) majority is very much committed to the nation of Iraq, and its representative government. Iraqis have lived with, not only fellow Iraqis who have practised Christianity (Assyrian and Chaldean) but even Jews for centuries. Only foreign interlopers in AlQueda have killed Christians or bombed churches in Iraq since Saddams disposal. Iraqi muslims gathered in Christian churches sitting in pews where their neighbors once worshipped, who fled following al Zarkawi’s slaughter of christians in Iraq, as a sign of solidarity with neighbors who practised another faith. In hopes that they would return to the homeland they had fled. Christmas was celebrated there last December. Women wore make-up.
Oh, but remember, Democratic institutions don’t work, except perhaps now in multi-ethnic Iraq.
And as to the Battle of Manila. I never knew about it until I watched a program on television about it; they put the slaughter total at 150,000 Manillans killed. I have never forgotten it.
The japanese commander of Manilla was ordered to abandon Manilla, and retreat back to mainland with men and materiel, before the anticipated land invasion by allied forces. He disobeyed his orders, and instead ordered mass killing of all Manillans.
The Japanese also floated weather balloons of biological weapons onto the west coast that made it successfully to a farm in Oregon that killed an entire family. They had a nuclear weapons capacity in 1945. They perfected their chem-bio weapons on Chinese slaves.
President Truman was reluctant to use nuclear weapons on Japan, but these events, plus the sinking of the Indianapolis, amounted to the last straw for this all too human Commander in Chief, whose patience had been pushed just too, too far. THAT is the context of his actions,
Its not unlike Holland in 1940, when they surrendered to Hitlers National Socialists, only then to have the Wehrmacht rain down blitzkrieg (after having surrendered to Nazis) on Rotterdam, killing at least 40,000, to serve as a dress rehearsal for Planned blitzkrieg elsewhere.
Millions were killed that needn’t have been, all because peace initiatives with Hitler were pursued, and military defense abandoned following the first world war, and the fact that Wilson created the “League of Nations” instead of facing the logical extension of U.S. involvement in WW1, namely, god forbid!, !occupation! of militaristic Germany.
President Roosevelts foreign policy vis-a-vis Japan and Germany, as I recall, after 1941, was unconditional surrender, not “negotiation”.
After the second world war, we occupied Germany and Japan until the present day, and at least stopped the advance of Stalins interNational socialism until Carter sent them the sign of weakness and they broke the Warsaw pact and invaded Afghanistan.
Carters weakness and Soviet gambling gave us the mess we are cleaning up today.
I am not happy or proud, of the lives lost at Hiroshima, and Nagasaki. But who, but a Hitler or a Tojo, or an alZakawri would be proud of war? The Japanese had every opportunity to SUE FOR PEACE (and don’t let anyone tell you differently), and their answer was slaughter of 150,000 in Manilla, not with nukes, but with knives, bayonnets, swords, and bullets (your more basic bushida), and their god promised them that Japanese mainland would be a cemetery for Allied soldiers.
I am Happy and Proud, of the lives, both Japanese and Allied (American, Australian, et very much cetera), spared by Trumans decisive action. THAT is the context of his decision.
The question is, are we fighting a war against a Nazi Germany, or an Imperial Japan, where the soldiers involved, at least have enough self respect, to wear the uniform of their nation, and not disqualify themselves from Geneva convention rules, or are we dealing with the nihilistic philosophy of Anarchy, which believes no “change” can begin until the utter and complete collapse of any and all social order takes place?
I would remind us that, all four of the assassinations of our Presidents, were by anarchists, with the intent of producing anarchy, whether they succeeded or not.
And if we are dealing with anarchy, then those who deliberately disobey, and therefore disqualify themselves from the benefits of the RULES of the Geneva convention, with the single objective of being showered with those very benefits they violate ( created to protect soldiers who wear their country’s uniform and insignia) , are creating the anarchy (i.e. collapse of any and all social order, individuals be damed) they seek. [see: chaos theory]. Anarchy is its own reward, if it self perpetuates itself through what we are seeing now. Islamic “terror” organizations need not even engage in acts of terror for the moment, they can sit back and watch as we destroy ourselves with “Hope and Change” power grabs by a party long ago given over to the very nihilism (not to mention the narcissism) on which anarchy depends and on which it thrives.
If we agree that this is Anarchy, then all bets are off, no matter what any judge may decree, and 0bama, or Eric Holder, or whoever, better get this message, and act appropriately, as courts are seeking their own power grab, with only disasterous consequences to follow.
Just deserts.It’s not as if they’re innocent of bloodshed.What goes round comes round and now they are on the receiving end.Fatach has dominated the scenefor 30 odd years.Corruption ,extortion,swindle,
payoffs,bakshish,joblesness,mayhem and murder were the order of the day.Sounds very much like the current sweethearts dujour.
Supposedly the ”poor palis ”are the victims,but it seems they’re comfortable in the position and not really duped.
who cares, Obama gonna save us all.
Yeah, but his dilemma is whether to save Kenya or the Palestinians first.
2×4 – “Perhaps that was one of the objectives…” – That… perhaps is a prob when judging Israel’s war aims in the light of the deaths of infants and old folks…
To another related point – does anyone have final word on the reports from a couple years back re Eliot Abrams’s desire to sponsor a “hard coup” against Hamas after the elections that brought them to power – was that true? Did the U.s. press Fatah to fight in Gaza – even after Hamas asked it to join the gov! – Or is that all B.S. and the Hamas/Fatah civil war just standard Arab politics…Let me know if anyone knows the deal…
#34. steveaz:
Hey Steveaz, agreed on all points, but doesn’t address why no one, not even the Israelis, are openly questioning the numbers. I would have thought that they would take control of Gaza city at least and allow,in sympathetic or at least disengaged observers (Indians?) to see it for themselves. I seem to remember Powell saying he saw no evidence of ethnic cleansing at Jenin, it didn’t get much play but I think it had a resounding effect, I haven’t heard Jenin used as a rallying cry since.
NahnCee makes a very important point. The Palestinians voted Hamas into power, knowing exactly what they were. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.
I do not rejoice in the carnage. But what else could Israel do? The fact that they hurt Hamas so badly and killed so few civilians, under the circumstances, is a tribute to both Israeli military skill and, yes, humanity.
Best,
Richard
WIO?
“It’s time to go back to my original sig…. Pork Rinds For Allah…..”
Oh man that was you? You seem so much more temperate in your latest incarnation.
As far as pork is concerned, the Muslims seem to have a work around for breaking every rule there is. Temporary marriages in cat houses? One religious edict could undo many dollars in pro-measure.
44. Annoy Mouse:
WIO?
“It’s time to go back to my original sig…. Pork Rinds For Allah…..”
Oh man that was you? You seem so much more temperate in your latest incarnation.
lol… for every season is a reason…
Then the issue was I was pissed and wanted to provoke.. then I got the idea to educate people about “what is occupation” and how everyone in the world is an occupier in some form…
And learning about Arab history and THEIR conquest of the middle east and how the Berbers, Coptics, Kurds and YES Jews were historically rooted in places that the arabs just arrived on the scene in 630ce… (that’s recent to us..)
but now that it’s illegal in holland to say bad things of the qu’ran, and it’s ok to wave hamas flags in germany (but dont have an israeli one) I think it’s time to go back to the lenny bruce approach of informing people….
I’ll wait for the fireworks!
I think they are correct, Benj, I recall reading such stuff, although I do believe th idea was to train up a security force that could and would be able to do something more than look pretty like they did under Arafat.
Hammas got where it is due to a family feud over Arafat’s spoils. Too many Fatah factions made Hammas election a shoe in. Fatah was fat and couldn’t knock out Hammas when it had authority. Too bad.
The torture rooms, if reports are true are indicative of a sick turn. Perhaps the Gazans will find the strength to fight against Hamas, like the folks in Al Anbar did. Perhaps due to proximity there is just no way to pull it off short of a long and costly siege. Things are going to get UGLY in Gaza, or would that be Uglier. If Hamas comes out on top Egypt will pay a heavy price. They should have given Israel a bigger wink and a longer nod. And told the EU to mind its own. That would have been typical ME politics.
Thanks for that Wade – I’m going to look into that – my hunch is that Bush’s instincts might not have cohered perfected with Abrams’ in this instance – Lord knows everybody in that Admin was not always on the same page…- My understanding is that Hamas proposed a coalition gov with Abbas as Pres? But that Israel and the U.S. told ABbas no can go. Not sure that was the wisest move – though one can understand reluctance to deal with Islamist brutes. Still – we’ve been betting the house on some tribal/Islamist horrors in Iraq. And that was right thing to do there…Hmmm.
Fatah has not, to my knowledge, been given the terror group label. Hamas and the PLO have. The training was prior to the elections and the equipment was part of the spoils Hamas demanded in tossing out the old militia and installing their own in a question of loyalties and the manner of the top dog. Uncivil servants collecting spoils, and denying any claim up to the present interpretation of the world according to…whomever. Sort a like the code pink wing…among others in the democrat camp only (so far) without guns to keep it civil.
Almost all of the Japanese military war criminals were never tried by the US or any other country victimized by the Japanese war machine. I saw a program about that some years ago but no explanation was given.
I was invited two years ago to present a lecture at the Beijing and Nanjing law schools. When I was taken to the museum in central Nanjing I was surprised to see that the exhibit about what the Japanese did to the people of Nanjing and other Chinese was low key. When I returned to Beijing and asked my ex Ph.D. student about that he told me that the Chinese government is ashamed of the weakness of the Chinese government before WW2 and during the war. So they blame themselves but still despise the Japanese.
In my somewhat limited travels in Asia and my not so limited discussions with Asian graduate students I believe that the only friends that the Japanese have is the US!
I was a child during WW2. We used the verb “jap” to mean a despicable act against someone. The word has disappeared from the our language.
By the way the Japanese government and milirary still refuse to admit their crimes during WW2. The only Chinese that do not dislike the Japanese are the Taiwanese. The so called “native Taiwanese” (not the folks who flew China with Chang) were respected by their Japanese overlords. The old building of the National Taiwanese University was financed by the Japanese and are of Japanese “style”. There are Japanese tea houses and geisha houses in Taipei and other cities in Taiwan.
I believe that the reason our “press” when doing WW2 history ignores Manila and hypes the A bombing but not the fire bombing of Tokyo is that it fits with their leftis narrative. After all we did dabble with imperialism in the Phillpins after the Spanish-American War. But there was no public support for what we did there.
Okay, of three versions of Fatah, all are terrorists. My bad.