For years now, Israel has been routinely condemned by the United Nations for trying to defend herself; a veritable public relations hailstorm has been unleashed against the only Jewish state. Orwellian Big Lies have dominated the world media’s reportage on Israel. Jews/Zionists have been falsely accused of controlling the world, committing massacres, purposefully murdering civilians, poisoning Palestinian babies and causing Palestinian sterility, etc. Since 2005, Israeli officials have been unable to travel to Britain lest they be arrested and tried as “war criminals” in the UK.
I began actively defending Israel from the moment Arafat launched the malevolent Intifada of 2000 against her. Although anti-Semitism had been on my personal and intellectual radar since the early 1970s, it was not until the 21st century that I began to document a new and lethal form of anti-Semitism, a “perfect storm” in which fundamentalist Muslims, jihadists, and western progressives all agreed that human suffering, every world problem, was Israel’s fault, and could be corrected only if Jews were defamed, forced to suffer, and if the Jewish state were abolished. I published a book about this (The New Anti-Semitism) in 2003.
I was demonized for breaking with the politically correct intelligentsia and thus, perhaps, have earned the right to criticize the Jewish state when such criticism is warranted. It breaks my heart to have to do so. But I must—and my criticism has absolutely nothing to do with how Israel treats the Palestinians or its own Arab citizens—which, as we all know, is far better than the way in which most Muslims are treated in Arab and Muslim countries. My criticism has everything to do with how Israel treats religious Jewish women.
Let me be clear. The utterly corrupt United Nations has not earned the right to criticize Israel; I have. If they want to challenge the internal affairs of a nation state, I suggest that they begin with the major human rights atrocities being committed in Afghanistan, Burma, China, Congo, Egypt, Indonesia, Iran, Jordan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, and Yemen. And that’s just for starters. Once they have done so, I have a human rights abuse for them to explore in Israel.
Ironically, Israel does protect the holy sites of all religions in a way that no Muslim country does. Muslim governments and Muslim mobs routinely desecrate and destroy non-Muslim houses of worship, do not allow other religions to openly flourish and, in addition, persecute, abduct, exile or murder those of other faiths. Israel does not do this.
The Western Wall
But the Jewish state does look the other way when Jewish women, who are praying in a modest and religiously acceptable fashion at Jerusalem’s Western (Wailing) Wall, are attacked, both physically and verbally, by ultra-religious goons. I am talking about Women of the Wall, a group that has now been in existence for twenty-one years.
The Western Wall is the outer remaining wall of the Second Temple and, for 2000 years, was the precise spot where exiled, Diaspora Jews longed to pray and where those who made pilgrimages to the Holy Land actually did pray.
On December 1st, 1988, I was among the women who prayed together out loud in the women’s section at the Wall for the first time in history; it was a life-changing event. Rivka Haut, the woman who organized this first prayer service, and I eventually co-wrote a book about this struggle, Women of the Wall: Claiming Sacred Ground at Judaism’s Holy Site, which we published in 2002. We dedicated the book to the State of Israel but declined to promote its ideas in the non-Jewish media given that Israel was engaged in an existential fight for its very survival.
Women of the Wall with tallitot
Please understand: At the Western Wall, there is a very high barrier (a mehitza) between the male and female prayer sections. Only someone who is purposely standing on a chair can look over the barrier into the other gender’s section. The high barrier has not protected women worshippers from violence. Ultra-religious men have thrown heavy metal chairs, tear gas, garbage, and excrement at members of Women of the Wall (WOW) while they were praying; ultra-religious zealots, both male and female, have also cursed, stalked, threatened, and physically wrestled with WOW members.
In all this time, the Jewish state has never arrested an ultra-religious male or female for disturbing the peace and the prayers of our sincere and devoted female worshippers. Ultra-religious women have harassed, taunted, screamed, and tried to drown out the prayers of Women of the Wall members. They have behaved with extraordinary inhumanity towards other women. Over time, Women of the Wall members have prayed more and more quietly, as far away from the men’s section and the barrier as possible, as far away from the actual Wall as possible.
These religious women have been forced to cower, tremble, and to pray fearfully—just like Jews were once forced to do in Muslim and Arab countries. And during the Spanish Inquisition, I might add. It is an apt comparison given that Jewish and Israeli women in the twenty-first century are now literally being told to “hide” their prayer shawls (tallitot) under their coats when they approach the Wall.
Once, long ago (in 1989), the state hired female guards to drag the softly praying women away. Believe it or not, WOW members were seen as “disturbing the peace” of the real worshipers—whose concentration was too easily shattered by the very idea that women were actually praying autonomously and authoritatively.
What we were doing was never viewed as contrary to an Orthodox interpretation of religious law, but it was seen as disturbing the “sensibilities” of the haredi (ultra-religious) worshipers who, increasingly, have taken over control of the Wall and have turned it into the kind of synagogue where women are meant to pray silently, each alone, and to never, ever be heard, not even by other women. In addition, for a variety of reasons, the authorities have allowed less and less space for female worshippers. They have still not provided shelter from the elements.
A minor correction: the Western Wall is not a part of the First Temple, but rather the side of the great platform Herod built as part of his reconstruction of the Second.
Jews are not required to have faith. Faith, whether political or religious, closes the mind by its very nature. Nevertheless, there are Jews who DO have faith. They have forgotten that Jacob was renamed Israel, meaning “wrestled God,” because he wrestled with God. Arguing about everything, and reconsidering everything, are Jewish traditions, and are the strength of Judaism. The Jews who attack women who pray at the Wall don’t understand their religion.
If the day ever comes when Muslims rule the Temple Mount, competing sects will blow up al-Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock. Muslims have often attacked mosques and killed those praying there.
Dear Phyllis,
I loved the article!
Keep up the criticism. It’s long past time that women shouldn’t have to be afraid (yes, I mean ‘afraid’) to express themselves religiously… If my ‘nohal’ is to put on a tallit in the morning, how sad is it, that when I go to the Kotel (or even to my favorite Carlebach shul in Ra’anana – a shul that I attend every Friday night -) if I go on Shabbat morning, I cannot put on my tallit…
When I go to the Kotel, generally I try to go for Minchah. Then I avoid my Shacharit frustration.
SIGH… It’s sad when Minhag haMakom over-rides halachah. Since there is no halachic issur, it’s actually outrageous to forbid women from putting on a tallit or carrying a sefer torah… [Me? I personally applaud the newer "egalitarian" minyanim that are springing up in Israel, although, prohibiting women from leading shacharit (because of "divrei she-b'k'dushah") is equally frustrating...]
You are right. To harass or interrogate women for their religious expression is like Khomeinism… Sad indeed!
Ilana Rosansky
Dr. Chesler presents an incisive and cogent argument for religious rights and freedom for all Jews in Israel. If a group of women choose to pray in a collective every month at the Kotel, and they are respecting halacha, then why should they be subjected to incessant harrassment, threats, intimidation and arrests?
It is clear that prayer is the cornerstone of Judaism and thus, preventing Jews from praying; preventing Jews from connecting to Hashem in the most tangible way is a most grievous offense.
If Jews were arrested in any other country other than Israel for exercising their right to pray and to wear religious articles, the entire Jewish world would rise up in justifiable anger and righteous indignation.
Israel is a vibrant democracy and one that embraces tolerance and pluralism. Why doesn’t a relatively small group of women praying at the Kotel deserve the same respect as every other group of people who prays at the Kotel and that includes non-Jews?
Using the phrase “Khomeini-ism” completely misrepresents Israel.
How sad to have to write this column — as though there were not enough battles to fight regarding the Jewish state. Yet darkness emanates from more than one corner, and few fight darkness as courageously as you, Phyllis.
Women should be as free to pray at the Kottel as men, however what I can’t understand is why women have to put on a Kippa instead of a scarf or a hat, why do women have to put on a tallith while praying at the kottel. No religious jewish women would have ever dreamed of doing this. If the woman would have been born a man then yes, but what is this thing about reform Judaism where some women not all though, wish to emulate the Jewish male when he prays. A man does not have to wear a tallith if he is unmarried. Some women go even further to put on tefillin aswell. Most observant male Jews put on tefillin each morning except of course for the Shabbat and the Haggim. These women are not even members of the othodox jewry, if they would be they would no better than emulating men in worship. To be truthful Nofrat Frankel looks like a man, ***** her behaviour is nothing less than extreme, If she want’s to pray at the kottel why can’t she do it in a civilized fashion, she does,t have to flaunt or portray her own particular sexuality as she did attracting so much attention to herself at the Kottel, where people, men and women pray, I certainly don’t condemn her for her sexuality, she can do as she pleases, however there is a place and a time for that, and it certainly isn’t at the Kottel.
Here’s a photo of “Women of the Wall” from a (much) earlier period: http://twitpic.com/xemkv
Phyllis,
You’re spot on. This is probably the best article of yours that I’ve read. It seems to me (if I, a Christian, American gentile should dare to intrude) that it is time for the women of WOW to march to the wall – the “men’s” side, or whatever – in full religious regalia, in full daylight and say their prayers, and take whatever consequences befall. Taking the compromise position of a separate area that apparently is not even the wall itself (if I understood correctly) was the mistake. I have mentioned on this blog before that compromising with bullies never, EVER accomplishes anything good: it only emboldens the bully. Everyone knows the history of the American civil rights movement: eventually you just have to raid the front of the bus; you just march into the damned university – excuse my french but I’m starting to get hot. I’ve never had to do this, I admit, so I’m not judging those who balk at the physical and legal risks entailed in what I am suggesting. But it is the ONLY way change ever happens. Bottom line. 150 years ago Abraham Lincoln told the South (I’m using “artistic license” obviously) “Free the slaves.” The South said, “Never.” So he said, “Free the slaves or we’ll kill you.” The South said, “Never.” So he killed them – 300,000 give or take, losing about the same himself. It was that – or we’d still have slavery.
Enough is enough.
The Ultra-Orthodox Jews can still worship as they see fit in their own synagogues. But they shouldn’t be allowed to control public areas in a free society.
No compromise with muslim terrorists, and no compromise with the haredi either. No compromise, period! And tell Nofrat Frenkel
that she can move to my neighborhood and be my doctor — Lord knows I could use a good, praying doctor — if her own people don’t want her.
I’ve lived in Israel. I refuse, absolutely refuse to set foot in any shul that demands I separate myself from my husband and sons as if I am a lesser person because I am a woman. This means I may never be able to go to the Kotel.
Samir,
Do you think it ridiculous that some traditions like the prayer shawl are exclusively male? What does having a penis have to do with prayer?
In the outer context, this seems to be a problem of human rights.
Innermost, it is a problem due to the imperfection of religion. Normal religions at best modify only the surface of the nature. Moreover, they degenerate very soon into a routine of ceremonial habitual worship and fixed dogmas.
The imperfection of religion comes from the clash of man’s spirituality and his endeavor at ignorant sublimation of his lower nature.
There are 2 ways to define religion:
1) Permanent and Unchanging: The lower religion, that gives way to orthodoxy, dogma, intolerance, and protocol. It spins around without gain. Uses definite scriptures: Bible, Torah, Koran, etc. This is one playing havoc in the context of your article.
2) Changing in communion with the Divine: Like Yoga, no dogma but experiences, change only due to inner spiritual reason, from development from within. Kabbalah, the closest to Yoga within Judaism, has been an expression of the needs for this second movement.
some animals are more equal than other animals
#12 Lisa–
It’s not the presence or absence of a penis that’s involved here–it’s that women have periods, which render them spiritually unclean for half of the month, and the Hebrew Bible mandates that they need to avoid contact with me at that time. Check out Leviticus 15:19 and 15:20 (KJV) and you’ll see what I mean.
But don’t be too hard on us. Those passages give Jewish women a right that Gentile women don’t enjoy: the right to say “no” to their husbands.
Also, the Hebrew Bible mandates that men and women dress differently, probably to discourage transvestism, and other forms of what Moses termed perversion. A woman who dons a tallis is therefore trying to dress like a man, which is forbidden. The Torah has served humanity well for the last 3,000+ years, and I can understand those who don’t want to just walk away from it. Sorry!
A. Nonymous,
The period excuse is bullshit. We don’t live in an era where women have to sit on straw mats for days on end to absorb the blood. We have tampons and sanitary napkins. My brain doesn’t turn off because I bleed. I am not going to stain the Torah with blood.
Are girls who don’t menstruate allowed to do all those things? Women who have gone through menopause? Women who have hysterectomies?
The Torah has only served half of humanity well.. the male half. These are man’s commandments, not God’s.
Thanks, Phyllis, for tackling this difficult issue with such sensitivity. You’ve certainly earned your bona-fides as a supporter of Israel when it is criticized unfairly; this is a situation where public criticism is necessary, lest this kind of thuggish behavior become the next “red line” of the ever-moving religious status quo (moving to the right, of course!).
By the way, WOW’s usual site for Torah reading at the nearby archaeological site of Robinson’s Arch (an extension of the ancient western retaining wall, but not part of the public prayer area) was chosen as a compromise until such a time that the women could be guaranteed security praying at the Kotel itself. It’s been 21 years. Apparently with all Israel’s security expertise, this is one problem they haven’t been able to solve.
One quibble:
Your statement that ultra-orthodox men don’t believe their womenfolk should hold well-paying, responsible jobs is simply not correct. There are many, many professional haredi women who support their families — and specifically their husbands, who choose to sit and learn in yeshiva rather than earn a living in the secular world. For many of these women, supporting their husbands’ mitzvah of learning Torah is a matter of pride… even if it means significant stress from juggling their work duties and the needs of their (usually) very large families.
It’s not a lifestyle I would choose, but hey, it’s not the Taliban either.
16. Lisa:
[The Torah has only served half of humanity well.. the male half. These are man’s commandments, not God’s.]
I agree, this is my point all along.
Hinduism is plagued with the same type of arbitrariness, prejudices, obscurantism, dogma, unnecessary protocols.
Some temples in Indian won’t allow visits by non-Hindus. A few will even question you if you don’t look one of them. Then there is the Dalits and untouchable BS, it will wreck Hinduism alright if they don’t change fast. The caste system was perverted by men a long time ago.
A famous Yogi, now known as Jesus of Nazareth, once told the Pharisees that they not only don’t enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but prevent others from doing so.
A. Nonymous: Torah did not serve Humanity: it served Jews.
***
This Article makes me very sad – included some of the Comments to it.
I am especially appalled about “Christian” and “Prostitutes” shouted as Synonimous and that “she looks like a Man”.
I wonder what kind of Respect and Perception of People do these Commenters have of Others.
***
“Nice” to aknowledge it, though. Thank you ….
Samir S.Halabi
Your statement is a total acceptance of mythical sex role stereotypes created by men with no basis in reality. If women were not forced to look like children by hair styles, clothing, shaving, make up, lack of physical and muscular development and breeding selection of the weakest, males and females would look very similar. Big women would appear similar to big men and small men would look like small women. It is males who have forced the sexes to live out only half of their natures in order to maintain domination over women. It is sexist culture that has made women acceptable only if they deform their bodies to become sex objects for men.
A. Nonymous
The fact that women create life in their bodies and feed that life from their menstrual blood is the essence of the mystery of the creator. Menstrual blood is a sacred symbol and the only unclean thing is the minds of religious men who have labeled it as dirty as their own narcissism. It is holy. It is what nourishes new life. To see it as unclean is a sin against the creator regardless of what the old men teach and write. The religion needs to evolve. Fundamentalist Jews need to see that their patriarchal culture with all its’ evil and stupidity is closer to Islam than to the vibrancy of majority Judaism .
That the state of Israel allows these reactionaries to control the holy sites is a blot on it and dangerous to its’ ultimate security. It is breeding terrorists.
The fundamentalist Jews are practicing terrorism against women and because it is “only” women it is encouraged through tolerance. This is why most women, as soon as they are free, walk away from these patriarchal systems. The religions controlled by males insist women are different and therefore restricted from full participation in the culture. And their privileged gender males terrorize women to maintain the power structure. A few men on top with their soldier followers keeping the women in line by force. And practicing animal abuse as well. How is this different from Islam? Judaism is bigger and better than this part of Israel’s religious practices. The state should outlaw their barbarism in its’ own interest.
Hey Phyllis, everyone has the “right” to criticize Israel. Its called free speech. You just learn to ignore certain critics after a while.
…a “perfect storm” in which fundamentalist Muslims, jihadists, and western progressives all agreed that human suffering, every world problem, was Israel’s fault, and could be corrected only if Jews were defamed, forced to suffer, and if the Jewish state were abolished.
Substitute “US” for “Israel” and “Jews” and you find the same attitude from this satanic triumvirate.
A culture that requires of itself an introductory biogrophy of bona fides before offering criticism implies that your opinions are more worthy, certainly than others that do not have that exerience, while in truth it only lacks the confidence and muscularity to be defended.
The ‘Women of the wall’ aren’t interested in promoting Judaism, they’re interested in destroying Judaism. Women are different than men, with different obligations and different roles. Jews are different than Gentiles, with different obligations and different roles. This is fundamental to Judaism.
They read from a Torah that they don’t believe in; they pray to a God that they don’t believe in; not out of caring about Judaism, but just to spit in the faces of those who do care about Judaism.
Why is ti that Women want to be men? Are you not happy with the body Hashem has given you? Just because women have a different roll in Judaism does not make it less important. What is insulting is that you insist on projecting your desires on those who wish to practice our faith as it has been for over 3000 years. The other option is for you to get an addadictomy and then you may be able to pray with the men!
21. HellenoChristian:
[A. Nonymous: Torah did not serve Humanity: it served Jews.]
As far as I remember, the Torah is part of the Christian Bible, as the first 5 books of the Old Testament: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, so it has served more than the Jews.
This nonsense has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with feminist agitprop.
Well, Yehoshua and Berel certainly have proved that they are good at trotting out all the old canards: that we want to destroy Judaism, dress like men, get publicity, and hand the keys of our city to the enemy while we’re at it.
Yawn. I’ve heard it all before.
Is this supposed to be an invitation to intelligent debate? No, I guess not. It’s just the old spewing of hatred and ignorance that we’ve unfortunately seen for so long — the mindless regurgitation of old accusations that are so groundless that they are laughable.
I always thought that yeshivas taught their students better ways to argue their point.
Yehoshua and Berel, your ignorance and hatred are showing.
I’m not orthodox, but if it weren’t for religious Jews, we wouldn’t be talking about this right now because Judaism wouldn’t exsist.
Yehoshua and Berel,
Doesn’t Leviticus also say no carrying on the Sabbath. Yet, folks put up those silly eruvim so that you can pretend that you aren’t leaving your home and thus not carrying. You aren’t supposed to use fire (which is bizarrely equated with electricity) and yet Shabbat elevators are common.
There’s all these silly workarounds for laws men decide are too burdensome. Yet, when women ask for EQUALITY, something that matters… what do they get?
The men throwing chairs and diapers do so because they want to control women’s roles… its that simple. They don’t have that right.
Rahel,
Actually it is your ignorance that is showing. When you Feminists resort to name calling, it shows that your argument is based on emotion not rational thought. Not once did I say women are inferior, they are different. I also said that in Judaism we have different rolls. Most men do not want to be women however, many women want to be men.Men have more obligations under our faith. Another reason for the separation is biological in that men are attracted to beauty, and this is distracting during prayer. However the fact that some women feel the need to assert themselves with the same obligations and dress as men is another story. Because we have different obligations and biological make up does not make the women role in Judaism any less important. Most men will agree that the woman’s roll is fare more important.
Have a Great Day and remember crow is not Kosher!
Lisa,
There is also the Mishna which establishes the laws as well as Talmud which interprets them.
Women will never be “Equal to Men”. You are biologically different and this is not politics it is our faith. If you wan to be a man so be it. Our modern technology will make you a man. In the secular world women have the same rights as men. In the Jewish world they have a different mission than men. Again no less important but different. If you want to pray with a Kippa and Tullit go ahead and do it. When yo decide to make a show of your feminist views, in a public forum,is when most people object to it.
Lisa, you nailed it. The opposition against WOW has nothing to do with prayer or piety, and everything to do with power, turf and control.
Captaindawg, what’s your point? FYI: most of the core members of WOW, including myself, are religiously observant.
Evil Pundit 29 and Yehoshua Dalin 26:
Of course this is the case. It doesn’t matter. In a free society public areas need to be available for everyone to use, otherwise you have the tyranny of one group. There’s no in between. They can keep the strictures of their religion in their own synagogues.
A. Nonymous 15:
“…women have periods, which render them spiritually unclean……the Hebrew Bible mandates that they need to avoid contact with me… Check out Leviticus 15:19 and 15:20…”
No, they are rendered physically unclean; there is no moral issue so no spiritual uncleanliness. And it is just as incumbent on you to avoid her; “… whoever touches her will be unclean….” But because the cause is physical and not spiritual no sacrifice is needed, indeed nothing is needed except to wait for the sun to set! Besides there are such women everywhere all the time, so how have you been dealing with this? There’s your solution: deal with it that way!
Lisa 16:
There is no “half of humanity”. This is the insanity into which Feminism so eagerly dives (and it gets deeper; see below). Humanity is one indivisible thing. Within that context men play one role, women another, children another, etc. Now you will say I’ve contradicted myself. Not so. To use the apostle Paul’s wisdon: the body is also one thing. What is the heart without the body? Or vice versa? Nevertheless the heart has an essential role within the body, and ONLY that role. It cannot hear, it cannot see – nor can the ears or eyes pump blood. It is really very simple and quite obvious. I do not understand the allure of insanely stupid beliefs. Their source is Satan. Stop listening to him.
Hellenochristian 21 was right to correct you that the Torah served the Jews, not humanity – at first. And it served the group as a whole (and therefore also the parts) equally well. MiamaMan’s point is also correct: the Torah now also serves all of humanity in it’s proper role within the context of the entire revelation of God, the Christian Bible. (Of course he did not put it that way, I added my own analysis.)
Greenconsciousness 22:
“Your statement is a total acceptance of mythical sex role stereotypes……”
This entire paragraph is unbridled feminist insanity. So we men are so powerful as to change the very physiognomy of women?! And that against their wills?! And the (obvious, genetic, fundamental) differences between men and women are nothing but “mythical stereotypes” which we invented and foisted upon women for our own benefit?! Wow. Okay. If we men are this powerful perhaps we have not been given enough deference: we should be worshiped as gods! Just minor deities, not GOD – but still! Where’s our props?!
Still deeper: Menstrual blood is not sacred. It is not a symbol. It does not “feed life”; if a life had been created there would have been no menstruation. It’s uncleanliness is no illusion. It is refuse; tampons are thrown away for a reason. Really, you’re this ignorant!? No. Feminism has driven you mad.
This whole subject turns my stomach inside out! I’m ashamed of our bigoted fundamentalist Jews who have stayed in the dark ages. Two years ago my grandson had his barmitzvah at the Kotel. How disgusting it was that we, observant Jewish women, who came from the USA, S. Africa and other countries, had to stand, two or three on one chair, to watch our Barmitzvah boy. Shame on you all those who keep good Jews from equality under the guise that it’s because we’re “different” from men, when it’s really all about control by men who don’t have half the compassion or intelligence of the women they’re deriding and abusing. Thank you Phyllis and bravo for continuing to bring these enlightening articles.I lived in Israel for several years, and am the grandaughter of a Rabbi.
Maybe these most recent outrages are what’s been needed to mobilize the community that should be supporting WOW and challenging Israeli Taliban….
– but what is with the featured ad for Scott Brown?!
Three topics to avoid:
Sex, religion, and politics;
Addressing all three at once ?
There is a failure mode of the
human mind which manifests as
a revulsion towards reality:
“The World, the Flesh, and the Devil”
“The World is a carcass”
Whatever
If I wanted to be _truly_ divisive,
I would say “the _male_ mind” and
add that the complementary failure
of the female mind is a conviction
that life should be fair, and if it
is not, should be made fair by force.
I have heard that some moderate Jews
are leaving Jerusalem, to avoid the
Ultra-Orthodox insistence on literal
interpretation of and compliance with
all the strictures of scripture.
WOW and the Haredi are equally obnoxious and deserve each other. WOWs are dilettante feminists pursuing an anti-religious agenda by baiting religious fanatics into predictably rabid responses in order to embarrass religious people at large.
The Haredi (Jewish Shakers) are a minute minority who contribute nothing to the defense of the Jewish State or to its moral, cultural or technological standing in the world. Not surprisingly, the Haredi contribute nothing to Judaism either. For all their overt piety and purported devotion to Torah, they produce neither outstanding torah scholars nor worthwhile scholarly texts.
That said, it can’t be denied that the Haredi were present in Hebron and Jerusalem and praying at the wall long before the Yishuv. They were in the Jewish homeland and committed to Judaism (if not to a Jewish State) when the secular parents and grandparents of the WOWs were flogging Socialism and Communism in Europe and America.
The role of women in Judaism needs to be openly debated by honest Jews genuinely committed to a happy and healthy Jewish future. Those who think that the kippa and the tallit are exclusively male garb need to ask themselves some honest questions. For instance, when did the practice of wearing a kippa begin and why? (No, modesty and humility are not the reason.) Is a woman exempt from the requirement of attaching fringes to a four cornered garment? Did the Prophet Deborah, as Chief Justice, not establish clear precedent for a female rabbinate–indeed for a female Chief Rabbi?
Such questions can only be resolved by well meaning and open-minded Jews. Haredim in black and WOWs in hippy skullcaps and prayer shawls are equally ill suited to the task.
37. Ester:”This whole subject turns my stomach inside out! ”
Do you now see what Jesus was talking about when he talked to his fellow Jews about these things? Or does he still not make sense to you?
Ha, ha, Phyllis, thanks for creating this Jewish brawl here and now in this post, I learn a lot about the different characters and customs and “them Jews”, especially from Yisrael, you people are definitely an admirable lot.
As a full-blooded member of the Spanish race, I am sure I have a healthy percentage of Jewish blood (Conversos, Marranos). Look at a picture of El Caudillo Franco, he looked definitely more Jewish than Galician (being from El Ferrol), supposedly Celtic country.
Anyhow…may a promote a book I have for sale on eBay? I found it the other day in an old bookstore here in MiamA…The Rise of David Levinsky – Abraham Cahan – 1stEd 1917, ha, ha.
28. Reading Comments such as 26. and 27. I really see that Christianity isn’t served by the (same) Revelation.
***
There are very masculine Women as well as very feminine Men, and this doesn’t mean they have to become Transgender (or Hijras) to please your sclerotized Idea(s) about how Women should (must!) be or how Men should (must!) be.
***
According to my Life’s Experience I can state that Women carry on their Shouldern far more Responsibilities than Men do.
***
36. Torah is a Middle-Eastern Tradition; the World is (was) plenty of other Traditions, too.
—
In case of Pregnancy Menstruation Blood would very directly help the Incarnation of the Baby’s Soul.
Men who consider it dirty have been very directly helped by this Blood, too ….
David Levavi 40: How much do you really know about WOW and its members? Maybe you should speak to a few of us before you make such a sweeping negative judgment.
Misogyny cloaked in religiosity…
The issue is about power and control. Men who question what women want and how women choose to express themselves, remain clueless as to what they tell us about themselves. The men are terrorized of their dependency on the female body which gave birth to them and life.They feel insecure about giving up their power and control.
Another issue is how Islamic radicalism and Khomeneism have seeped into Jewish culture, making it become more polarized rather than flexible and compassionate. There is no reason in the world that religious Jewish men should be harassing Jewish women. It mirrors to a degree what is happening in the Islamic world as well as the social anxieties within Israel as it struggles to become a better democracy.
Phyllis – keep up the good work. It is no fun to have to wash our dirty linen in public but if we don’t the aggression will escalate and besides, we should never feel so threatened that we can not speak up otherwise we succumb to the very terrors that underpin this intolerance.
Well, of course these women are going to draw anger and critism, they look like lesbians and they are wearing male dress (talit shawls and kippot head coverings are for men, not women). If these women would just show up dressed like women and pray like normal, I doubt anyone would care.
Freaks.
The Taliban are taking over Israel. Wonderful. With all of the horros that seem to be multiplying every day that’s what we need in the world…more Taliban.
It will be fun when these dirtbags (just like the rest of the pit of vipers called Pharisees that Jesus spoke of) have to face Him at the throne of judgment. Hypocrisy is second in the most evil of sins next to that of corrupting a child.
As a Jerusalemite, I am used to Haredim. And the longer I live with them, the less I can stand them. They are becoming a danger to Israel. Particularly the Ashkenazi Hassidim.
But, on the other hand, people here need to make no mistake. Most Israelis don’t care for WOW, don;t like them, and don’t support them. The secular Israelis can’t even start to understand why they want to pray.
Me neither and I am not even secular (nor religious exactly, but in the middle like most Israelis). Women don’t have to pray in Judaism. It’s not a punishment it’s a gift. Be happy with it.
WOW and similar groups are perceived as provocateurs with a weird American ideology. The ultra-Orthodox are wrong but WOW is no better.
G-D gives women a place of honor and respect in the Bible! G-D raised up women leaders who were awesome!
“Religious”? Haredim (ultra-Orthodox) scare people away from G-D in their soul-destroying behavior. Whilst claiming to be godly their evil, ungodly behavior dishonors G-D and frightens away spiritual seekers. These VIOLENT, hate-filled ultra-religious study Torah? Did they re-write their own version? G-D is against violence!
The Bible reveals G-D is a loving, merciful, forgiving G-D whose requirement for ALL humanity is KINDNESS:
And what does the L-RD require of you but to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your G-D. Micah 6:8
Haredim who savagely attack praying Jewish women ought to tremble in fear of the Holy One. Surely, G-D will judge very harshly those who with hate and violence have misrepresented G-D thus blaspheming G-D’s absolute goodness, holiness and perfect character.
Please allow me.
It is a fact. It has been proven, that a person who becomes a vegetarian does more to reduce greenhouse gases than one who switches from driving an SUV to a hybrid. How? By decreasing methane emissions from bovine and other animal populations.
On this PETA has taken to task several times that hypocrite of the first water known as Al Gore.
The freakish, Al Ghoulish, Nancy Pelosevish Karloff, eco-terrorist, California-San Francisco-loony-bin, liberal crowd, including its Gobernator who ain’t Republican, should start by this measure and give up their juicy steaks.
Reduce bovine population by several hundred million count, keep those for milk production only, cultivate the vacant pastures with grain, vegetables, etc (4 times more efficient than meat production), and solve the hunger problem of the world, decrease greenhouse gases dramatically, and violence too (why, you think these rivers of blood create no negative Karma?)
To #49 beni:
You state: “The ultra-Orthodox are wrong but WOW is no better.” You are saying WOW is the same as the ultra-Orthodox! Where is YOUR evidence that WOW engages in filthy, violent anti-G-D acts as perpetrated by the ultra-Orthodox?
‘Ultra-religious men have thrown heavy metal chairs, tear gas, garbage, and excrement at members of Women of the Wall (WOW) while they were praying; ultra-religious zealots, both male and female, have also cursed, stalked, threatened, and physically wrestled with WOW members.’
The haredi are a bigger problem than the arabs. They contribute nothing as most do not work, but are supported by the state to “pray and study”. They are parasites, but for some reason have extraordinary powers in what was initially supposed to be a secular state. Wearing 18th century cosumes and haircuts does not imbue holiness.
benji
Why should free women support a country that allows discrimination and terrorism against women; a country that, by its’ tolerance of violence against women, supports terrorism against women? Women in the US are strong for Israel in reaction to the way Muslims treat women. But the comments on this board are reflected in the decisions of your courts; not supporting WOW and calling them lesbians using that term as a pejorative; demanding they conform to sex role stereotypes or be accused of wanting sex change operations. Actually refusing to allow women to be and do what they feel called to do unless they stick a penis on their genitals. Are you crazy?
Some women glory in their womanhood and still want to wear the holy garments and be included as full humans not one half of a foolish myth. Other women want no part of a religion that denies them human rights and will not evolve.
The real question is how the state treats these differences. The state presumes equality or it does not. Does the state protect the minority and provide public secular space or does it have religious las as does Islam. Western women will say – since there is no difference why should we fight the left for these misogynists? We judge a country by its’ laws and the freedom ALL its’ citizens are granted.
US women are critically looking at Israel in light of the cost of our commitment. I have listened to radio shows with Israeli spokesmen and they are very intelligent, warm and witty speaking of justice, democracy and humanitarianism until I call to ask about the status of women. Then their dismissive attitude is revealing. They show a contempt for women’s struggle for equal rights, a disbelief in their humanity, all reflected in your comments and the comments of other men on this board.
I want to convince you that if you see American ideology of equal rights as weird, we won’t be there to protect your rights when you need US weirdos. Stop telling us what a democracy you are if that does not include security and equal rights for women.
I would like to introduce myself as one of the observant members of Women of the Wall. I cover my hair always (mostly with hats, sometimes with scarfs and infrequently with a kippa), observe all other mitzvot that I can, as carefully as I can. This includes tefila (prayer) 3 times a day–in the morning with talit and tefilin. I also wear a talit katan (not usually visible). I do so, not to “be like a man”, but to be closer to the Holy One and to remember my religious obligations (that’s what tzitzit are for).
monthly bleeding does mean we shouldn’t have physical contact with our husbands, it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t pray or read Tora. The ritual impurity is not “contagious”–that is not the reason we separate from our husbands.
The enjoinder of not wearing men’s clothing is not “black and white”. Not everyone agrees on its exact parameters and certainly not everyone agrees that talit and tefilin are what is meant.
Yehoushua and others: how dare you presume that I don’t believe in God or Tora! You and others spit on us (some litereally). As I’ve written elsewhere–we come to the Kotel to pray. We come quietly and usually in small number. We ask only to be left alone. we leave the Kotel in about an hour.Most people wouldn’t know we were there, if not for the Haredim who come specifically to harass us. Most men and women who come to the Kotel to pray do not notice us, are not bothered by us and do not bother us.
Berel, Captaindawg and others:
our faith has not remained the same for 3000 years It has evolved as I suspect it will continue to do.
The picture that someone submitted earlier showing women praying at the Kotel prior to 1967 shows no mechitza. I havent’ heard anyone here suggest we take the mechitza down, even tho for years Jews prayed at the Kotel without one.
I believe I carrying on the traditions of my ancestors and they would be proud of my actions.
Much more to say, no more time.
If this were a cafeteria, I just opened the door during a food fight.
There is no way a person who believes that religion is a sociological creation can discuss anything with someone who believes the Torah has divine origins. Well, there is a way, come to think of it.
The former person can assert that the latter person, although more religious, doesn’t understand the text they claim to wholeheartedly believe. Which means that sociology has to have a BETTER understanding of the religious texts, not be dismissive.
The same goes in the other direction, that a religious person should be MORE sensitive to the emotions and thoughts of the sociologist than the sociologist, rather than being dismissive.
But that’s not the way the argument is going. Rather, each side chooses to call each other variations on the word ‘idiot’. This reflects poorly on those who have taught both sociology and religion.
The issue isn’t about power or control. The issue is whether people can open a book, read the words, and understand what those words mean. This is a more difficult skill than it appears, since so few people in the world seem to be able to do it.
I say this, because if you can open a text, read and understand the words, then you’re not going to have a food fight.
And it’s only a hop, skip, and jump from understanding text to understanding another human being.
Berel, not only did you say nothing different or new… but you repeated the old arguments that I heard years ago and didn’t believe then. No sources, no discussion, just this: “Woman, accept that women are different from men. Or, more accurately, accept my interpretation of what your being different from men means. You don’t get to think for yourself, or investigate the sources, even those that allow you to wear tallit and tefillin. Just do what I tell you or be silent. Now, go eat crow.”
That’s what I heard from your comment… and I must confess, Berel, that I would have heard it a bit more clearly if you’d used spell-check.
Why would anyone, anywhere, want to be part of any religion in which they are treated as lesser beings?
The answers here are either to leave Judaism, or to confront its prejudices head-on — thousands of years of Jewish history and the advent of the modern era haven’t been enough to bring about reform.
By the way, my advice applies to all religions.
I sympathize with the author of this article, but would like to point out that ultra-orthodox Jews do not represent the plurality of World or Israeli Orthodox Jewry.
Sadly, because of their political sway, the Israeli government is forced to kow-tow to the (often unreasonable) wishes of the ultra-orthodox.
On the other hand, although you are correct in stating that prayer groups of women are permitted (and even encouraged) under orthodox law, many ultra-orthodox liken WOW to religious fringe groups, such as those of the reconstructionist movement, who seek to challenge traditional Judaism wherever possible. Women wearing talit and tfilin is a big part of these movements, which can, in whole or in part, explain why the ultra-orthodox are inherently phobic of this phenomena.
That being said, nothing excuses violence, and it is due to an epic failure on the part of ultra-orthodox leadership that they believe it is okay to stone or otherwise harass anybody who doesn’t conform to their religious standards, especially those who are clearly not violating their right to adhere to their own.
Phyllis, you state: “Israel does protect the holy sites of all religions”. Israel most certainly protects Muslim sites. Israel does NOT protect Jewish holy sites! In a disgraceful, despicable act, Israeli leaders gave control of the Temple Mount, Judaism’s holiest site, to Muslims.
Pro-Islam Israeli leaders broke Israeli law for global Islam, and have ALLOWED Muslims to vandalize and destroy precious Jewish Temple artifacts and structures at the holy Temple Mount. And build mosques. An extremely significant conquest for Islam bestowed on Muslims by anti-G-D Israeli leaders.
Muslims regularly attack, desecrate and destroy Jewish holy sites in Israel. In the filthy Islamic invasion of Church of Nativity in Bethlehem, Judea, Muslims tore up Bibles for toilet paper. Bibles in which G-D gave His Laws to His Hebrew servant, Moses, as ‘YOU SHALL NOT MURDER’.
In evil, vicious attacks on G-D, Israeli police arrest Jews (and Christians) if they are even suspected of praying on the Jewish Temple Mount.
Israeli leaders run Israel as if it has been conquered by totalitarian Islam.
If these women showed up at any other public prayer site in the world for a legitimate purpose (prayer being the main one), they would attempt to abide by the established ground rules, including dress code, for that site.
However, their agenda is not prayer itself but the embarrassment of the religious establishment. Rachel, Deborah, Hannah, and the other great women in our religious past would be aghast. Had Hannah been as in-your-face as these women, she would have sabotaged her whole mission as an innovator of prayer.
Nancy Hartevelt Kobrin:
…It is no fun to have to wash our dirty linen in public…
Better to wash our dirty linen in public than to walk around in stinking rags, say I.
Many of those commenting here are confusing Jewish custom and Jewish law. The Kippa and the tallit are custom. Recall that prayer was instituted by the Rabbis as a substitute for sacrifices. Consider also that devotion for any physical structure, much less a wall built by a tyrant of qestionable royal legitimacy, smacks of idolatry.
I have to say that my sympathy tilts towards WOW and here Phyllis, Ilana, Lisa, Rahel, Ester, esthermiriam, and even Linda Rivera (whose name sounds Puertorrican).
And yes, I must confess, I never liked Jews, I mean, Jewish men, they are usually hairy, pushy, and ugly…now, Jewish women, that’s another story, as they are usually beautiful.
Greenconsciousness: Please, you do not need to use possessive for “its”, like its’, its is already the possessive, and it’s, is the contraction of “it is”. Alles klar?
Kol tuv everyone!
The traditions we follow today, such as the tallis and tefillim, evolved out of rabinnical interpretations of the bible. But they do not exist in the original. Therefore, no one has the right to tell me that I cannot, out of respect to him, wear my late uncle’s tallis.
As for the objects thrown over the divider into the women’s section, I hope the women picked up all that crap and threw it back.
First, we need to understand that the ultra-orthodox are not a block. There are many groups inside them with different attitudes and ideologies.
The more open minded are the Sefaradim represented by Shas. They present themselves as Zionists and are a real part of the society. We need to differentiate among them between the more tolerant North Africa Judaism and the Middle Eastern one represented by Ovadia Yosef.
Then we have the “lithuanians” who are mostly centrists in the ultra-orthodox world and willing to change.
And then the hassidim who are divided in dozens of sects, some very open (Habad, Brastlav) and some extremely closed and intolerant (Satmar, Toldat Aharon…) and anti-Zionists. These last one of the groups making problems in Jerusalem. Nobody else.
The ultra-orthodox world is becoming a greater part of Israel because of the very high birth rate. But at the same time, it is changing from the inside. The extremist anti-zionist groups are slowly dying. Too slowly. But hope is here: more and more ultra-orthodox serve in the army and work, forcing them to cope with the secular outside world and learn to live with it.
Regarding the WOW movement, the problem, as someone wrote it, is they are seen by most Israelis and in particular by religious Israelis as a reform movement. Not as Orthodox women. That’s why they are perceived as provocateurs and the police do not like them. The Jerusalem police has enough issues to deal with and, in its view, does not need a bunch of crazy women to ignite another religious conflict. So, knowing these women are mostly nice American ladies, they try to scare them so that they will stop. That’s all the story. No political pressure or anything else.
As long as we have “authorities” claiming that the menstrual cycle renders a woman periodically unclean, we absolutely MUST have a Phyllis Chesler to shine a light on the muddle-minded. Thank you for this important article.
lisa, you are correct that menstruation has nothing to do with why women do not where talesim. But as was pointed out, the mandating of different garments for the two sexes does have a lot to do with it. Also involved is the fact that the Torah exempts women from many of the time bound positive commandments, which includes the wearing of tzitit.
As to greenconsciousness’ comments about male-authored mythology, anyone who believes that has rejected the Torah anyway, and has no need to pray at the Wall or elsewhere, and certainly no need to wear a talis, all of which stem from what she sees as that same partiarchal bunch of myths. If someone believes it’s all myth and insists on doing it anwyay, it’s hard to resist the conclusion that she is acting out of a desire to provoke and not out of a desire to engage in sincere worship. Fortunately, not all of th WOW share that view.
I’m a long-time baal teshuva who has lived in and out of the charedi world. Phyllis, truthfully: What could be the basis in Jewish law for publically flouting the accepted mores of a holy site like that? If I’m an Ashkenazi in a Sephardi Shul who puts on tefilin during Chol HaMoed, the halacha requires that I do it strictly privately. The halacha enjoins respecting the minhag hamakom, specifically in order to maintain peace—and this with respect to totally normative practices, which women wearing a tallis, and having a “minyan” are surely not (even if special dispensation can be found for doing these things privately).
If you love Torah and the Jewish people, you will not persist in sowing such division by the childish insistence on publically flouting the commonly accepted mores of Judaism at the Cotel.
I totally condemn the use of violence as a form of protest in this situation.
As for women on buses: I’m willing personally to come to blows to prevent the Neturei Karta bullies from telling you where to sit on a public bus. In fact, I almost have done when a over-zealous demonstrator tried to order my neighbour’s wife not to stand in a certain place on the street. It is not for him to decide that. The Cotel is different matter. It is an ancient holy place with accepted mores, which means there are limitations on appropriate behaviour.
In order to hold the line against extremists–and indeed we do need to do that—we need to build bridges of consensus. Until there is a Sanhedrin empowered to change time-honoured practices that rules otherwise, the WOW will be outside the halachic consensus, and will continue to bring tragic division the more they persist.
I probably have no business commenting since I am not Jewish and not a woman. But I read the article because I am generally interested in human rights abuses everywhere.
I hate to appear unsympathetic but it seems to me that these issues accrue from the acceptance of a certain level of theocratic rule in Israel – by victims and perpetrators alike in this case. It seems to me more of an internal fight to alter the limits set on personal freedom that are natural to the religion in question. So I wish you well in your internal struggle but I find it far more compelling to focus on the places in the world where lack of freedom is all encompassing and where basic human comforts and personal dignity are stolen from people by corrupt regimes and ideologies.
Haiti is a prime example. Certainly the earthquake was an act of god. But the high level of misery, destruction and loss of life is strictly manmade. At 7.0 on the Richter scale, the Haiti quake was only about half as energetic as the 1989 San Francisco 7.1 quake. In the SF quake only 62 people died and the major aftereffect might be classified as extreme inconvenience for some – but not major suffering for millions. That hundreds of thousands of people may die in Haiti should be laid at the feet of their “leaders” who have suppressed economic development over the years, stolen high percentages of foreign aid for their own benefit and fed their citizens a constant stream of self serving ideologies rather than leading them to a better standard of living for all – including properly reinforced structures in which to live and work.
Ahad Ha’amoratsim,
Did you read my post (or all of Phyllis’ for that matter)? The distinction between men’s and women’s garmnets is not as clear as you portray it. And of course being EXEMPT does not mean being FORBIDDEN. You certainly know that over the years women have taken on positive time bound mitzvot like shofar and sukka. This has even been encouraged in some traditional Orthodox parts of the world.
Benjamin,
I am not sure you are correct that the Israeli police “don’t like W of W” On Rosh Hodesh Tevet they were very respectful and even friendly. True they didn’t arrest or even admonish the Haredim, but at one point two female guards pointed out to the police commander on site that they could see the talit that Nofrat Frankel was wearing. He smiled and said it was ok. Another women (not one of our regulars) openly wore her talit, had a conversation with a police officer about the illegality of her actions, after which the officer walked away. Anat Hoffman was called in for an interrogation weeks after this. it seems to me the police were “told” to bring her in. If the police had thought she was breaking the law that day, they could have arrested/detained her then.
Bob,
Hannah was not trying to innovate, she was pouring out her sould to God, trying to communicate as I do every month. I am sure she would proudly find her place amongst us at the Kotel–certainly not with the screaming, taunting Haredim.
Rudy,
while much of what you say is correct please note that it is not (primarily) Reconstructionist or Reform women who wear tallit and tefilin, since I would venture to say that Reconstructionist and Reform men also do not. It is Conservative and Orthodox women who do, just as their male counterparts do.
69. Mike G:
[Haiti is a prime example. Certainly the earthquake was an act of god. But the high level of misery, destruction and loss of life is strictly manmade.]
As another non-Jew who sticks his nose in this Jewish brawl, allow me a comment on the Haiti issue you brought along.
Cal Thomas wrote last week, proposed, that Haiti should be disbanded as a country, after miserably failing, and its population scattered around the globe. Food for thought. Haitians thrive in many other countries, never together.
Haiti is like a black hole, where US, Europe, and other donors’ money disappears, I mean, before the earthquake.
Haiti has been the sick country of Latin America for over 200 years; lately Nicaragua, Bolivia, and Paraguay, who once competed with it in misery, finally left Haiti behind, and alone at the peak of dispair.
Could this problem be associated somehow with the fact that black Africa could feed itself while colonized and years after being freed can’t? Hush, hush.
Now with the earthquake, Haiti has become a political hot potato here. Obama being so-called black, he must now go to bat for his race, and excels himself. Problem is, we are almost broke here.
Your views are very biased towards the Israelis and against the Palestinians (but then I would say that because I’m an Arab).
I reject that Muslims have a cultural predisposition to armed conflict with Jewish, Christian or any other system of belief (history shows that these populations can live in peace and equality for thousands of years).
I propose that the majority of Muslims are solely interested in justice and only hold resentment for those that seem to have malevolent intentions, as highlighted (many times) by the very democratic United Nations.
For your information, Israel currently holds the record for the longest ongoing illegal military occupation in the world, and also the record for the most number of disobeyed UN Security Council resolutions. Is it Anti-Semetism to point this out?
Phyllis, ignore your sycophantic urge to appease the Israeli lobby, read some Chomsky, then start to heal the wounds caused by willful ignorance over the last 60(!) years…
72. Lao Tzu’s best friend:
I think you should be called the “Grand Mufti of Jerusalem’s best friend”, the great Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, and wasn’t this Mohammad one of Hitler’s friends, a refugee in Nazi Germany during World War II? Please refresh my memory.
I sold on eBay a couple of Chomsky pamphlets recently. 911 and another similar rag. I think Professor Chomsky believes in the authenticity of the “Protocols of the Wise Men of Zion”. Many Arabs believe in its authenticity too, and the book is often commented upon, together with Mein Kampft, in the many smoke-filled, tea-vapor-filled, front backrooms of the great Arab world (the back backroom are for liquor and cheap porn movies).
But what about if I tell’ya that the Protocols was created by the Zarist Ochrana, under Generals Oryesky and Ratchkovsky? As Russian philosopher Solioviev wrote, the Antichrist “does not look like what he is”. It was finally Rosenberg, who later hung in Nurenberg, who took it from the Russia and the Baltics to Munich and through Hess and morfine-addict Dietrich Eckhart and the Thule Society to Hitler.
But go and explain that to Professor Chomsky.
Shalom!
MiamaMan 51:
“…a person who becomes a vegetarian does more to reduce greenhouse gases than one who switches from driving an SUV to a hybrid. How? By decreasing methane emissions from bovine and other animal populations.”
This is completely untrue for a couple of reasons (and I am very sad to see that you have fallen for this AGW nonsense at all.) The first reason this is wrong is because AGW is a purposeful scam anyway; none of it is true. It was global cooling when I was in high school. Before that we were all going to starve to death because human population would outstrip our ability to produce food. This last myth goes all the way back to the 1800s. Now it’s already morphing into “climate change” because global warming, gosh darn it, just ain’t happening anymore. Second: if AGW was real cow (or any biologically produced) carbon/methane still would not make any difference. The carbon released into the atmosphere in this way is only that contained in the plant-life to begin with. It was taken out of the atmosphere by the plant when it was alive, and released after it was eaten, as it would have been also if the plant had simply died. It’s a constant natural cycle (the “carbon cycle” no less – go figure) that changes nothing, that CAN’T change anything however many herbivores of any type there are. Besides, you would just have us become the herbivores in question. You vegetarians have to admit …. well …. never mind. Furthermore, I would argue that even carbon released from fossil fuels makes no difference, but I am not going to delve into that here. Suffice to say the only problem caused by “SUV’s” is smog. Dense populations overloading a particular environment with exhaust is a problem and needs to be dealt with, and has been dealt with over the years, at least in developed countries: our cars are much cleaner now than even a few years ago, we no longer use leaded gas, etc. All these improvements are well and good and necessary, but there is no “global” problem even there.
Bob Miller 61:
You are probably right on your second point, but I doubt these women would show respect for anyone anywhere: their purpose appears to be agitation, pure and simple, as has been said. But that doesn’t mean they’re wrong on this issue. This is a public space. It’s purpose is public prayer. If they say they are there to pray, and they appear to do so then they must be left alone: leave the mind-reading to the psychics. It is like a public park the purpose of which is picnicking, or playing, lazing about, reading a book or meditating. You can’t throw the “bums” out because they’re not “really” doing those things – like the rest of us (sniff). They have to be left alone unless and until they do something WRONG.
Lao Tzu’s best friend 72:
“I reject that Muslims have a cultural predisposition to armed conflict with Jewish, Christian or any other system of belief (history shows that these populations can live in peace and equality for thousands of years).”
1) Muslims haven’t existed for thousands of years. they’ve existed for hundreds of years. (1400 to be exact.)
2) Yes, anyone can live peaceably with Muslims – as long as they are militarily stronger. Being weaker… well… put down Chomsky and try reading some history. The Muslims have finally (and correctly) despaired of ever having military parity, let alone superiority with the West again, so they’ve started with infiltration and suicide terrorism, the latter always being a last resort which has never yet worked. We shall see.
74. logos1j1:
Again, I don’t know what’s going on with you lately. You are going off on a tangent again.
I don’t believe in the global warming BS either. Notice I strictly said: “greenhouse gases”. Now, these gases I refer too do have a greenhouse effect, meaning they trap heat. Among them, the most reactive is methane (major constituent of the common fart). I was also trying to put old down Al Gore, who I don’t like.
Still…what about the argument of efficiency? Feeding people with veggies is about 4 to 10 times more efficient than meat production, Al Gore or not. Let go of Ronald McDonald, please.
And please, please, Massachusetts folk, vote for Brown!
So where are all these smart Jewish lawyers in Israel?
This type of discrimination is ridiculous and should be the issue of human rights and religious discrimination lawsuits. Add in lawsuits against the police for “failure to perform their duties”, aka “depraved indifference”, and if a “writ of mandamus” exists in Israel, use it to force the authorities to perform their duties.
As a last resort, a nasty one, take the issue to the UN’s Human Rights Commission or an International Court. That would get some attention and Bibi off his fat ass.
Tie up their stupid butts with more lawsuits than a New York lawyer could write.
47. I am almost totally sure that Spirituality is Unisex – and that Spirituality is that, what matters. Anyway Buddhism (too) considers “Males” as superior than “Females”: it is therefore obvious that WOWers are ready to enter the priviledged Elite (that of “Males”). On the other Hand you’re free to consider yourself as “different” or “inferior”.
49. I dare to say that Stones are much more spiritually sensitive than you! How comes that “Women don’t have to pray/meditate”? Either you think that every Woman is (already) perfect, or you think that Women don’t have a Soul to pray/meditate for – which aren’t the Cases.
51. There are many Ways to cause Individual or Collectif bad Karma.
74. WOWers are not provocking – exactely the Way Critics of Religious Ortodoxy (Islamic/-ist Ortodoxy included) are not provocking. Oh yes: they’re provocking … a Changing, a Reform. Which is rather laudable than else.
Well I shouldn’t be surprised if Jewish Women the very partners who keep Israel alive and remembered are considered less and given cramped quarters to approach their Creator while the men invite all sorts of unholy fellows to pray with them at the Wall.
It must be why they don’t mind the debauchery of Islam that looks down upon them as they pray like hypocrites pretending that YHWH doesn’t know what is in their hardened hearts. Two brothers with one thing in common, their dislike of women. What fun they must have had on those day with one watching as the other threw vile objects at the ones that silly YHWH made to be at their sides. Better the Wall and better the Temple Mount belong to those two brothers, always fighting until of course the women come, then joining together with the real object of their anger.
In my mind I see the wall crumbling and the Mount desolate. Wait a minute…
Ms. Chesler and Ms. Mack –
I really sympathize, and there is no excuse for haredi men to act like arabs.
What both of you don’t realize is your crusade ignores the sensitivities and rights of religious Jewish women who want to pray at the Kotel in the modest and traditional manner. Please understand that there are many women who want to pray quietly and humbly at the kotel. I appreciate that you think women should pray aloud, read from a sefer Torah aloud, and wear pants, kippot, and tallitot. But most Jewish women who come to pray at the kotel do not share your view and your behavior disrupts the tranquility of the place and their prayers.
There is a dedicated place at the kotel reserved for men and women such as yourselves who think women should read aloud from a sefer torah and wear tallitot, etc. You have the freedom to do exactly what want to in that place. So for your group to enter the area reserved for the rest of Jewish women who do not agree with you and are disturbed by these activities really is a provocation. .
The real irony is in your quest for equality you are being very insensitive to the religious freedom of other Jewish women!
I am not saying you are wrong to read wear pants or read Torah (though I assume you skip over Devarim 22:5 when you do). You are incorrect to disrespect other Jewish women and their traditional mode of religious expression when there is a dedicated place for your mode of expression.
It is amazing to me how these Orthodox behave exactly like the Pharisees in the New Testament. In fact, the stoning *cough*murder*cough* of Stephen (Acts 7:54-8:1) comes to mind in particular.
63. MiamaMan:
THANK YOU! I googled it and you are correct. I am shocked. SHOCKED! I thought I was taught that in high school but I must have misunderstood. Thanks.
The gender war is raging here again.For SHAME! Gender wars always hide behind something, like God. When God is a man , men claim they are gods. Delusional HUBRIS.
Women are the primary gender, both sexes are created by us. We create EVERYTHING. From between our two legs come out taxpayers, citizens,and we create all commerce. Women have invented the sacred cloths, the ancient worship of the ancestors, agriculture, and all people participating in civilizations.
I am looking at these so called religions who want to push women out : lets see orthodox Islamist, Jews, and the Christians as well. Hindus too. There are NO excuses to push women around. These are NOT sacred religions. Women are rejecting them, Xians are feeling it, no more free labor of the nuns,no new priests either. Arab women are awakening big time, feminism has moved to where the oppression is the worst.
The male gods are loosing power over the despised women.
I think those Jewish women in their embroidered tallitot look stunning. Beautiful and brave, those are feminine qualities.
When women define the feminine the Goddess is our role model. These mean guys will die out like the dodo bird. Not fast enough.
83. Sacredblood:
[Hindus too] True.
In ancient India, differently from Greece and Rome for example, the institution of slavery was almost unknown, and the woman had then a freer and more dignified position. Soon the slave was replaced by a “depressed class” group, called the Shudra (Dalits, untouchables, etc), and a tendency to deny rights to both this class and the woman, brought down India to the same low level of the Western countries in this regard.
However, woman is more efficient on the physical plane due to the following of her intuitions. Thus she arranges matters more easily than man who wanders hither and thither within his mental constructions. Man is more intellectual; woman more intuitive, she is also a better politician, only she has not been given the opportunity to prove it yet. A few generations may still be needed.
This intuitive quality is what can baffle people facing a politician like Sarah Palin, who, apparently with the certitude of a sleepwalker, goes and touches the golden stone. For many, in the man-controlled media and politics, this is a hard pill to swallow.
80. Any Time there is a Problem among your Communities, do you call it “a Crusade”?
Forbidding Women to pray the Way they want and feel, it is like forbidding them to study or making a Professional Career due to a sclerotized Perception of Women’s Role.
84. Maybe you have to better proove that India was so high … and that The West was so low.
“Men are …” – “Women are …”: isn’t it rather Time to talk about “masculine (active) Qualities” and “feminine (passive) Qualities”, which are developed – in every human Being – through Education? (The more or less sclerotized Perception of the Genders/Roles – in a Society – affects one’s Education/Mentality).
83 Sacredblood: Are you insane or just smoking some very strong stuff ? Seriously, I did not know people like you really existed until I came here.
MiamaMan 75:
Yes, again I apologize. (See the previous post.) I have completely conflated at least these two articles. What else can I do but apologize and try to do better. And now I’ve got the inevitable splitting sleep-deprivation headache. If I lay down I won’t sleep, if I drink coffee it’ll just make me jittery.
“Greenhouse gasses” is AGW jargon par excellence so it sure sounded to me like you were favoring it. Anyway, I think we could use a little global warming. We get the term from the very fact that we purposely build greenhouses to improve crop production! More carbon/heat is better for plant growth. I suspect that before the Flood when the Earth was much healthier there was much more carbon in the atmosphere than now. The fossil record shows the magnificent health and abundance of both plant and animal life in the past as compared to now.
So far as efficiency: so what. We have plenty of food to go around. Scarcity is not the problem. Incompetence, corruption and flat out cruelty is what causes famines today. The famines in Russia in the 30′s, China in the 50′s, Ethiopia in the 80′s, Somalia in the 90′s, now Zimbabwe – all human caused and ON PURPOSE to destroy certain segments of the population and terrify the rest into utter submission. There is no production problem. So I will continue to enjoy my steaks.
HellenoChristian 78:
By all means speak your point of view and try to persuade. I do this. And I’ve supported your right to access the public prayer area that is the Wailing Wall. But I fear that after this you will try to infiltrate and protest and sit in on other people’s synagogues and churches to force your view on everyone – in other words become the bullies you are now fighting. This becoming like one’s enemy is very common, almost universal. I have seen it in my own religion: it destroyed the church I grew up in. People could not be content in their own church, they had to come en masse and destroy ours. And now there is nothing left but a shell – a 1000 plus congregation reduced to maybe 150. It was a work of the devil. Is Jay @ 80 right? Do you already have a place at the actual Wall? I had understood differently and indeed I have no access to the truth of the matter. But you know. So has it come to simple provocation already? I hope not. Live and let live.
Sacredblood 83:
Sounds to me like you’re a part of this war you claim to despise. You create everything? Well then you are God! You should win easily enough. Why not just stop creating men since we cause so much trouble. As the sole creator(s) you don’t need us right? I think you must have skipped your fifth grade biology. Here is the insane, gibbering ego again. Yes! We must all be SO significant! We must change the world! How about just being a decent person. Christ taught humility. Try that on for size.
Men active women passive hmmm…tell that to all the women of the world who actively toil day in and day out past, present, and future trying to make a better life for their children with the measly cost of their blood, sweat, tears, and yes many even fought! Wah! Wah! my perception of the world is changing! Pass the smelling salts! Another weak, passive women has fainted er…maybe that’s a misperception long overdue and finally laid to rest.
We’re stronger than you think Bub, and that could be one reason why suppression and oppression is a method most favored by those who like to pretend that they approach their Creator with open hearts and judgment laced with mercy. I see a good stiff wind blowing those soiled diapers right back in their faces, and then a upwind slamming those Muslim men with a face full of crap. Right back at ya!
Appears that the Saudi men even fear an army of fit women strongly striding down the streets, black garb billowing with health and vigor as they exit the gym. Oops sorry! doors closed. Misery and ill health your lot in life, well deserved for…well too many reasons to count.
I found this Interview (of Phyllis Chesler) right now, and I think we should listen to it –
it talks about Women Inhumanity to Women (which follows Men Inhumanity to Women), the Kabuli Experience (Women’s Apartheid), that Art to turn Evidences into exceptionable Facts (above all when it comes to Women’s Treatement), Radicalization of -ism (Misogyny included), and Women’s Choice (to be filo-gynist or else):
http://www.phyllis-chesler.com/682/fighting-jihad-with-lipstick-on [listen 00:15:00 - 00:26:00]
Benjamin, oh yes, there are millions and millions of women circles around the world,who are self realized women , proud of our past, which you of course were not privy to in school.Women’s past has been erased, women were marginalized, men like you think our contributions didn’t happen. But generations of women woken up,created Women’s Studies, and Third and Fourth wave feminists sisters have emerged. That you are ignorant and resentful towards humans who gave you life, our sacred blood makes you uncomfortable, shows how estranged you are from Nature.
Logos.!
i have created two taxpaying men, a marine and a scientist. They are not abusers of women of children. Women are the Goddess, not flipside of god. Oh yes, and i have written eleven books on the subject published by several big publishers.
What have you created?
sacredblood 90:
“What have you created?”
You are Goddess; you should know!
We men call what you’re trying to “create” here a “pissing match”.
You’ve just proven my point. If only you could see it.
sacredblood 90:
And if the blood is sacred what of the child? I suppose “that” can be disposed of at will? Just curious.
87. logos1j1:
1) No need to apologize. That said, voilà!
2) On Coffee: Dr. Andrew Weil, of “Natural Health, Natural Medicine” fame, does not take new patients that consume coffee, which, for some people is like poison. Investigate that angle on the insomnia front.
2) Insomnia occurs when the mind, wound up, refuses to rest. The practice of Nadi Shodhana
http://www.yogasite.com/nadi.htm
is highly recommended in this case before going to sleep.
3) Moreover, the use of a Neti Pot twice daily, helps relieve tension in the head and contributes to good sleep.
http://www.himalayaninstitute.org/Netipot/NetiPotGateway.aspx
(Add 1-3 drops of pure eucalyptus oil to the water).
MiamaMan 93:
“Insomnia occurs when the mind, wound up, refuses to rest.”
Yes, very true. I have my own meditation method, and prayer, both of which I’ve been neglecting. This would help more than going off coffee. I’ve never read a credible (to me) study that showed coffee to be bad. Eucalyptus though: that’s a new one. There’s a natural health store I go to; I’ll have to check that out next time. Thanks. And of course there’s always warm milk.
87. I think you don’t get (my and Sacredblood’s) Point: I think a Book about Tantrist Yoginis (Females) would help.
I’ll try and explain:
Women interested in Spirituality and its highest Achievements – which must definitively be “Unisex” -,
often are simply following “how do they feel like” – this hasn’t to do with “ill Will”, nor with “Evil”:
it seems that this depends on the(ir) Spiritual Job done in a Past Life. [Appearently Jesus-the-Christ supported "Reincarnation"].
In this Present Life, their Job is simply still flowing ….
It is said that Avatars’ (Incarnation of a God) Parents are People who,
through the Spiritual Job they did in Past Lives,
achieved an highest Spiritual Level,
which allowed themselves to coinceive (the earthly Incarnation of) a God/-ess.
This appearently was the Case of Joseph and Maryam (Jesus-the-Christ’s Parents). [According to Institutional Christianity Maryam was a Virgin, who conceived Jesus-the-Christ through the Holy Spirit only: but I'd say,
either she got cloned and Jesus-the-Christ was a Clone of hers, or her virgin Conception doesn't make much Sense.]
***
Imnsonia isn’t necessarely a Disease: it could be the Opposite – appearently most enlightened People sleep very little, and their Mind remains awaken.
Your Imsonia must be contextualized in your general Life Style, before one can judge it (as Sign of Illness or … of Health).
Dirty diapers, dirty laundry, curses, screams and shouts it seems, are the only things offered to YHWH these days. Paper prayers hide hardened hearts, pushing and shoving, spying on their neighbor, judging them and finding them unworthy to praise their Creator. Shh, shh, your place is behind not beside, and all the while the others look with glee from above knowing the desolation is safe for now.
HellenoChristian 95:
“Women interested in Spirituality…..often are simply following “how do they feel like”….”
This is not wise. We must act on Truth, not feelings which are fickle and untrustworthy. Truth only comes from God, not from within us.
“…which must definitively be “Unisex”….”
How do you know this? God made you female and chooses to reveal Himself to us as male/Father. Why do you reject this? There is something profound and wonderful about it which we do not yet understand: but we are still children. Babies, really.
“but I’d say… either she got cloned and Jesus-the-Christ was a Clone of hers, or her virgin Conception doesn’t make much Sense.]….”
This is the strangest idea I’ve ever heard. Cloning 2000 years ago?! This “makes sense” to you?! The virgin birth was a miracle, pure and simple; a creative act no different than the making of the world itself. You either believe in it or you don’t. There is nothing to “make sense” of. I believe the testimony of God: why should I doubt Him when I don’t doubt my own, fallible parents?
“[Appearently Jesus-the-Christ supported "Reincarnation"].”
Absolutely not. The Christian doctrine regarding this is best summarized in Hebrews 9:27. There are many other passages. Christ spoke of the Day of Judgment and eternal judgment many times (e.g. Matthew 12:36). You give me no reference point for your claim so I can’t respond further.
“Imnsonia isn’t necessarely a Disease: it could be the Opposite….”
Very true. (I’m rather a connoisseur when it comes to insomnia(s) (sniff).) One of the most profound spiritual/personal growth experiences I’ve had was a period of extended wakefulness (seven days and nights). I think this case is because I’ve been neglecting my meditations and prayers. God has never let me get away with anything. So I run around doing “more important things” that are urgent – and ultimately everything suffers. And I suffer. But thanks for the note.
Lynn 96:
2 Kings 6:16-17; Psalm 40.
97. Jesus-the-Christ (too) reported that the (Kingdom of) God is inside and all around you. (This doesn’t mean that one has to listen to him/herself only, while these “Feelings” could be those of his/her lower Nature. Neverthless there are People who can keep in Touch with their very divine Nature. Appearently they are not the Majority).
Phisically you’re either a boy or a girl, or bi-sexual (there are some), and you can be either polarized in the masculine Way or in the feminine Way, but (and this is what the Spiritual Job is all about) one can (must) develop the Qualities of his/her Opposite. Unisex means that one included in him/herself both masculine and feminine Qualities of the Being (for Instance, “masculine” Rationality and “feminine” Compassion).
Whatever happened 2’000 year ago (and even before – think about Egyptian Pyramids) remains a Mistery to us. If you like to believe in the Virginal Conception of Jesus-the-Christ, you’re free to believe it. Allow me to note a Lack of Sense of Reality (and an Aboundance of Irrationality) from you. Maybe “the Christ” (the very Spiritual Side/Carachter of Jesus) was conceived in a Virginal Way (in total Purity), but Jesus’s Body was most probably conceived in the very natural/practical/biological Way.
Jesus-the-Christ said abou Johan-the-Baptiser he was Elia’s Reincarnation “but they did not recognize him”.
About Imsonia: you only know why do you remain awaken, and what kind of Thoughts and Feelings dominate you during this Time. I wish you Light and Love. Meditation and Prayers could drive to Insomnia: the Opposite is true, too.
HellenoChristian 98:
“there are People who can keep in Touch with their very divine Nature.”
This is the Spirit of God Himself, the Holy Spirit, not “us”/the person in question. We do not have wisdom “in ourselves”. (John 14:26, 1 Corinthians 2:13ff.) Listening to Him I encourage very much. I wish more people would.
“…but (and this is what the Spiritual Job is all about) …”
I don’t see why this would be and don’t buy into the stereotypes for men and women which you’ve described. This distinction between sex (male/female) and gender (masculine/feminine) is also “much ado about nothing.” Feminism is sometimes determined to make the sexes exactly the same, other times just as fervent in emphasizing (false) differences like this. This shows a fundamental flaw in the “philosophy”.
“Maybe “the Christ” (the very Spiritual Side/Carachter of Jesus) was conceived …”
The virgin birth can only refer to the physical reality for two reasons: first, if it weren’t there would be no reason to note that Mary was a virgin. The whole point is that a very real, physical miracle occurred. Second, Christ’s Spirit was not created/conceived at all; He exists always; He is God. (1 John 1:1-3)
“…you only know why do you remain awaken…”
It differs not only from person to person but from incident to incident. My own policy is: if warm milk cures it the cause is physical. If it doesn’t it’s probably spiritual. (Barring some obvious cause like a particular stress (sermon the next day) or having had five cups of coffee at some dinner.) I’ve stayed away from over-the-counter medications (and even herbal remedies like MiamaMan suggests, though I’ll look into it). Mostly I’ve found they don’t work anyway. An acquaintance of mine has had severe insomnia and restless leg syndrome for years; he’s gone from medication to medication; and as I’ve gotten to know him better I’m completely convinced the problem is entirely spiritual. It must be taken on a case-by-case basis and each person must decide for himself. You can only say so much to someone.
Incidentally, the seven-day experience I described above was not a case of insomnia but a very purposeful “sleep fast”; a spiritual exercise I learned of in my studies of Zen Buddhism. (Even the Navy SEALs use a version of it in their training regimen, though for a completely different reason.) I prayed about it and at the proper time God led me to do it. I meditated almost non-stop for this period except for bathing, eating and maybe an occasional break or walk. This is possible because proper meditation is very like sleep in some ways, so the brain gets most of what it needs during this time.
One last note on insomnia: I am through it and as I thought all that was needed was prayer and meditation, and I am stronger for it. Learned something new, too. Much harm is done, by thinking only of medical solutions. The man I spoke of I truly think would heal possibly in as little as a few days if he would only take the real issue in hand, and this has been going on for years. Hopefully someone else can that benefit from this discussion. Insomnia is very common in our culture and though I am stronger for it it is very real suffering when it is happening. Thanks, HellenoChristian, for the blessing.
99. Dear Logos, thank you for your Comments and for explaining better about Buddhist Awakening.
About Feminism, I must add that it arose to oppose the bad Consideration and Treatement of Women/Females in (several) Societies.
It is not a Movement (the Way I reward it – and I think, the Way one like Phyllis Chesler rewards it) which wants to turn Women (Mothers) into Men (and Men into Women).
I personally like NeuroLinguistical Programming very much, which shows how many caractherial and attitudinal Differences there are between Beings themselves: therefore there even isn’t a fixed “feminine” Model and a fixed “masculine” one; it is therefore impossible to talk about “Women” and “Men” as if they were something standardized,
a part of their Genitals (whose Functioning is anyway not the same for every Woman/Man, which means, eventually what matters for every BEING it is her/his human psychological Asset – the Asset/Evolution of her/his Psychè/Soul).
100. logos1j1:
1) [The man I spoke of I truly think would heal possibly in as little as a few days if he would only take the real issue in hand, and this has been going on for years.]
But how do you know the man does not want his illness or malady? A large percentage of illnesses are there because we want’em to be there. They serve a deeper psychological need. Many an illness is simply an unhealthy concentration of consciousness on a given point, process, or organ. Move that concentrations away from the point and the illness disappears.
I have studied the greatest, and oldest, medicine system in existence in the world: Ayurveda for over 10 years. There is also a branch of yoga that pertains to healing, called Yoga Chikitsa (chikista in Sanskrit means medicine). Ayurveda teaches that illnesses are always a disequilibrium.
2) Again, on insomnia: To calm the mind that refuses to sleep, repetition of Mantra is very helpful. For Christians, a Christian mantra like “Thy will be done”, can be used. Trying to meditate while in bed is also conducive to sleep because when you meditate in supine position always end up falling sleep.
HellenoChristian 101:
I once studied NLP (briefly). I’m sure I’ve now forgotten everything. I saw very much good in it, though, I remember that.
Each individual is unique, but there are still two clear and distinct groups which God has chosen to create and which have similarities within themselves and differences between each other. This is very beautiful, if only we could see it correctly and in Truth. I don’t think the way feminism has used “masculine” and “feminine” has added anything useful to this discussion.
Obviously the mistreatment of women is unacceptable. But the mistreatment of Anyone is unacceptable. So, again, I don’t think feminism brings anything valuable to the table. We can and should address the problems of injustice, cruelty and evil without dividing humanity into two camps.
God bless.
MiamaMan 102:
“But how do you know the man does not want his illness or malady? A large percentage of illnesses are there because we want’em to be there. They serve a deeper psychological need. Many an illness is simply an unhealthy concentration of consciousness on a given point, process, or organ.”
Yes! this is absolutely right. You’ve hit the nail right on the head as you so often do. I think this is exactly the case. But there must be a better way to meet this need of his. I cannot imagine carrying such a burden for as long as he has.
“Move that concentrations away from the point and the illness disappears.”
This is what I was saying. This is what I would like to see happen; what I pray will happen.
“Trying to meditate while in bed is also conducive to sleep because when you meditate in supine position always end up falling sleep.”
It is very effective, but as with all things it can fail at times. Very rarely. An interesting story comes to mind: A young woman once came to me for counsel: she felt very guilty because she would say her nightly prayers in this way and would promptly fall asleep. She was quite afraid that she was on God’s bad side for this “sin”. I asked, “If a child, while talking to her father, fell asleep on his lap, how much trouble would she be in?” The answer is obvious. I said, “When you pray tonight imagine yourself on your Father’s lap.”
However this can’t always be so, for sometimes we need to finish the conversation, as I have found out.
A real case:
Man having marital problems, impotence, relatively young, now develops symptoms of prostatic hyperplasia, chronic prostatitis: frequent nocturnal urination, pain, interrupted stream, impotence. Man was gay and in the closet. Later, when out of the closet, prostatitis rapidly disappeared, as there was no need for it anymore.
Jay,
You are mistaken. In addition to the fact that we come for one hour, one day a month (which is actually less than the 11 hours usually claimed because Rosh Hodesh does fall on Shabbat, when we do not meet as a group at the Kotel.) our tefila is not a disturbance to those who come to pray. Most months many other women are at the Kotel on Rosh Hodesh and they are able to daven. They are not disturbed by our tefila, because they cannot hear us. We are usually a small group, we stand in the back. Often it is men from the other side of the mechitza who yell at us disturbing us and other women who are there to pray. It seems they are looking for us–they can’t possibly hear us from where they are. On Rosh Hodesh Tevet, the men who constantly yelled at us were not wearing tallit and tefilin. We were not disturbing their tefila, they had clearly davened earlier, or were planning to daven later. Then and always, lots of other men were davening. Those who choose to be disturbed will be, Those who choose to daven most certainly can.
Jay,
One more thought (actually 2). You claim that women who wear pants must be skipping the prohibition in D’varim. I’m not sure that is true. I am certain that there are poskim who hold that pants are not what the Tora is talking about and therefore there is not prohibition on women wearing pants.
I am equally certain that you have not seen me wear pants at the Kotel.
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Thank you for taking the time to discuss this, I feel strongly about this and I enjoy learning about this topic. If possible, as you gain facts, please update this blog with more information. I have found it enormously useful.