Update
French President Sarkozy today “voiced sympathy for Switzerland’s controversial decision to ban the building of Muslim minarets, calling on religious practitioners to avoid ‘ostentation’ and ‘provocation’ for fear of upsetting others.” He counseled Muslims to consider a “discreet” form of religious practice, not an “ostentatious” one.
Original Article
The mainstream media continue to decry the Swiss referendum on minarets. To date, the New York Times has published one editorial and five additional articles on the subject, including one today. Perhaps The Paper of Record views the 30% of the electorate who actually voted in Switzerland as traitors to their own multicultural, anti-racist, politically correct belief system.
The problem is that the Islamic world today does not share this hallowed belief system. Actually, it never did. Rather, it has destroyed or built over synagogues, churches, and temples, and denied that such infidel places of worship ever existed. Note the fevered Palestinian attempts to claim the Temple Mount, where once the ancient Jewish Temple stood, as really “Islamic.”
The Islamic world does not allow new synagogues or churches to be built. Either at all — or without great difficulty. (Yes, certain Muslim countries may now “restore” synagogues as museums. There are no or very few Jews left and the synagogues are not fully functioning places of worship.) Further: Muslim fundamentalists currently persecute, torture, and murder those Christians who dare remain in the Middle East, and they kidnap, forcibly convert, and “marry” their very young daughters.
It is time to demand — or at least to expect — reciprocity. Otherwise, we are really being racist in having one (higher) standard for Westerners and another (much lower) standard for the barbarians.
Granted: The West is not as barbaric and intolerant as the Islamic world; we do not willingly wish to become intolerant. Yet, tolerating the intolerant is unwise, or as the Jewish sages tell us: Being kind to the cruel results in cruelty to the kind.
Thus, if there can be no churches or synagogues built in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc. — then why should the Swiss or the Europeans allow new, blockbuster size mosques, and sound-splitting loudspeakers emanating from minarets? According to Imam Kurdi, writing in the Arab News:
“And let’s not be hypocrites. If you held a referendum in a Muslim country asking whether the construction of new church steeples should be permitted, you are also likely to get an overwhelming no. So let us not brand this a Swiss phenomenon and let us also remember that it is not the majority of the Swiss population that supported the ban but the majority of those who voted, which if you do the maths comes to 30 percent of the population.” (Thanks to Esther for bringing this to my attention.)
I am not troubled that the New York Times has had its editorial and op-eds on minarets. Minarets are not the danger, as I have written before. But something happened in Binghampton, NY, that may very well be an example of a real danger. A professor was murdered by a student from Saudi Arabia. According to some sources, the professor was a convert to Judaism. If that is indeed the case, the Times did its readers a great disservice by not mentioning the issue. If the source is unreliable, the Times should have mentioned that doubtful accusations have been made. In either case, they should not have left this out of their story.
Ordinarily, telling part of the truth but not the whole story is a minor problem. The world is a complicated place and we can’t explain everything in all conversations. On the other hand, occasionally telling only part of the truth is a way to go about lying. When we read the story of Oedipus, he was deceived, as were his parents, by being told only part of the truth. The deception was deliberate. It led to the tragedy of the story. I don’t know how much the Times knows, but I am suspicious of their motives. I suspect they are telling only part of the truth as a way to deceive their readers about a real and serious danger.
If I thought that banning minarets would save the life of a single woman, I would favor it.
However, it will not, because as George Jochnowitz wisely points out: “Minarets are not the danger.”
The danger is in the extremist views that some people hold, and in the violent actions resulting from those views.
In addition, it is not wise to dilute democratic standards because of dislike for
the repugnant actions of dictatorships.
European democracies (and our own) need to behave like democracies; not like the Middle Eastern dictatorships that have such abysmal records on human rights, civil liberties, and freedom of religion.
It definitely smacks of racism to expect tolerance from Jews and Christians, while at the same time, expecting the intolerant to continue being intolerant.
Knowing which companies do business in countries which are currently majority Muslim, that is a necessary step. Step two would be a printing of that list, so that people can contact them, asking why they are aiding regimes to dish out man’s inhumanity to man, via making the regime stronger economically.
For those afflicted with selective vision in business refuse to accept that the more economically powerful the regime, the more power the regime has to inflict man’s inhumanity to man, upon those it concludes are
its enemies.
It is high time that they are held accountable
for being accomplices to evil.
For those who are not familiar with the SWISS LEGACy fromWORLD WAR II, it is important to understand that the SWISS contempt for the Jews, and admiration for ADOLF HITLER, led the SWISS GOVT., under color of NEUTRALITY, to act as Hitler’s bankers during WORLD WAR II.
Sympathetic to Hitler and the Nazi cause of world enslavement, the SWISS acted as Hitler’s bankers and helpd prevent the Jews from using Swiss Territory to escape the deadly poisons of his Holocaust. the SWISS prevented the Jews from fleeing via Swiss territory, and the Swiss further aided the Nazi cause of murdering tens of millions of ALL races, (and enslaving the entire world, not just the Jews. )
So today, when the Swiss continue to pour out their poisons to the Jews,
it is because they have a long and infamous record of supporting evil, as they continue to support the Nazi Legacy by providing aid and comfort to the residuary legatees of the Nazis, the islamists, themselves allied with Hitler in his deadly attempts to colonize the entire world, including America and Britain. The proceeds from OIL no doubt play a part in the Swiss motivations. After all, they need some new source to replace the SECRET BANK ACCOUNTS, now that the USA
People who say that minarets are in-your-face assertions of superiority while church towers aren’t, obviously don’t know what it’s been like to be a Jew in Europe during the past thousand years.
“Let me be clear. I am one of those westerners who has “dreamed East.” And, as a Jew, I have an undeniably dangerous but familial kinship with Arabs and Muslims. I find the Muslim call to prayer beautiful—but only if I refuse to understand that, as an infidel, an American citizen and patriot, a Jew, a woman, and a Zionist, that my place inside that mosque is that of a sub-human, fair-game target for hatred or worse.”
…………………………………….
As a Jew, I don’t feel any kinship with muslims. And furthermore I find the muslim call to prayer a hideous sound.
NB, those times are past. The current threat to Jews is islam.
Let’s offer Islam a deal. Give back the Hagia Sophia to the Catholic Church and you can have a few minarets. Drop your claim to Temple Mount and you can have a few more. Treat your women better and no more talk of jihad and we might even begin to see eye to eye.
See. It’s easy.
“It is time to demand—or at least to expect–reciprocity. Otherwise, we are really being racist in having one (higher) standard for Westerners and another (much lower) standard for the barbarians.”
“It definitely smacks of racism to expect tolerance from Jews and Christians, while at the same time, expecting the intolerant to continue being intolerant.”
Oh, and what race are Muslims? Adherents to Islam, like the other faiths, includes a variety of ethnicities. This is not a matter of racism. It seems ever since our acclaimed Black leader was elected racism has taken center stage.
Dark skinned people supposedly have a right to behave in a bigoted manner. Most Muslims are not blond haired and blue-eyed individuals. Thus, the politically correct elites feel these alleged victims are not obligated to adhere to Western “white” values. On top of that, the Jane Fonda and Bill Ayers types hate their own society. The Islamic radicals are perceived as enemies of my enemies—and therefore friends. One is often tempted to find excuses, however logically inconsistent, to justify the behavior of an ally.
“The danger is in the extremist views that some people hold, and in the violent actions resulting from those views.”
No, the danger is in Islam. If anything, the “extremists” are the correct ones. They indeed know exactly what their ‘religion’ proclaims and are simply following it. There is no moderate in Islam, the ‘peaceful’ ones are uninformed and uneducated disciples of their ‘religion’. Every single ‘extremist’ action from suicide bombers to beheadings to their maltreatment of women IS justified and found in the Koran and Hadiths. Islam is not peaceful. It was spread by terror and brutality. So let’s get this straight, these people are not radicals nor extremists, but genuine sincere practitioners of the real Islam. And I, like Laura, find the Muslim call to prayer equally hideous.
“Freedom of religion” only means freedom of Islam for islamists. Having to get along with people who aren’t like you is only the hallmark of being a civilized adult. If they want to put up minarets, they should let other people put up churches and synagogues.
5. Jerry Boris: what you say is not just wrong, it is very dishonest. Swiss/Switzerland NEVER ordered the murder of anyone, and they did not murder people, Races, or whatever. 25% of Swiss population is so called “Multicultural” one: Swiss/Switzerland have/has a long humanitarian Tradition, no matter the colour or the Belief of helped people!
During hitlerian Nazism Switzerland remained a neutral Country, and did not allied with Nazis. The Swiss Government rather tried not to allow Nazism to spread into Switzerland, and subjugate its own population.
I FEEL THAT ISLAEL (JEWISH STATE) FIGHTING FOR “ISLAMIC/ISLAMIST – HUMAN? – RIGHTS” AND AGAINST SWITZERLAND AND ITS 57% VOTERS’ VOTE, IS (MUST BE!) A SIMILAR ACTION: ISRAEL (JEWISH) SUPPORT ISLAMO-NAZISM IN ORDER NOT TO BE (FURTHER) TARGETED BY IT. ISN’T IT?
Otherwise I would think Israeli Government and Jewish to be … crazy. Do they support the spreading of an Ideology which openly declare the will to murder (!) all Jewish, to whipe Judeo-israel (because, of course and why not, Israel too is and must be an Islamic/Islamist State, no more nor less than Saudi Arabia, right?), and to accomplish what Hitler failed to do? [Please, follow MEMRI: there are frightening Documents about the subject!]
MY DEAR, THE PROBLEM IS NOT SWITZERLAND (NEUTRAL DEMOCRACY AND DIRECT DEMOCRACY: DO YOU KNOW WHAT DOES IT MEAN? WELL, 57% OF THE VOTERS KNOW, SWISS GOVERNMENT AND ISLAMIC/ISLAMIST ORGANIZATIONS APPEARENTLY DON’T OR FORGOT!), THE PROBLEM IS AND STILL BE ISLAM-ISM! AND THIS IS NOT JUST A MATTER OF (FOR) SWITZERLAND, BUT FOR WHOLE EUROPE AND FOR THE MIDDLE EAST TOO, ISRAEL INCLUDED! NOT TO FORGET THE EAST: INDIA INCLUDED! OH LORD! INSTEAD OF SUPPORTING ANTI NEO-HITLERIAN-NAZISM (= ISLAM-ISM) FIGHTERS, THOSE FIGHTERS ARE ATTACKED …: GO ON ATTACKING THEM, BUT PLEASE …
THEN DON’T COME HERE AND COMPLAIN ABOUT THE SPREADING OF NEO-HITLERIAN-NAZISM (IN SWITZERLAND, TOO), AND ITS DOMINATION (OF EUROPE AND THE WEST, AND ELSE) – IF YOU’RE STILL ALIVE AND HAVING A LIFE, WELL UNDERSTOOD ….
I can recall just a couple of years ago when the Moslems were screaming the words “Itbach al Yehud” from their minaret loudspeakers just a few kilometers from where I live. They were inciting the mobs of Arabs who were attacking my town to “slaughter the Jews.” Some religion of peace, some religion period.
6. NB SAID “People who say that minarets are in-your-face assertions of superiority while church towers aren’t, obviously don’t know what it’s been like to be a Jew in Europe during the past thousand years.”
Oh, please! You make it sound like the Church itself was stuffing Jews into the ovens. Get a grip, and try to remember who the villains were. Sure Christians find Jews irritating, but there’s a big difference between being annoyed and actually perpetrating genocide. Christians have always tolerated Jews, in spite of the relative hostility of many Jews toward Christians. Let’s try to not get too carried away with the hyperbole.
About the vote and the voters:
30% of the population (with Vote’s Right [*]) voted against minarets (political Islam, and Islamic/Islamist Domination of their Territory, Country, Land, Culture, Civilization – sorry if it is too little …).
[*] 18+ years old, sane, with Swiss citizenship.
That means: less than 60% of the population (with Vote’s Right) [**] went to the Polls,
and 30% among them voted against minarets (political Islam, Islamic/Islamist Domination, …).
[The other more than 40% of the people (with Vote's Right) remained at home (as usual when it comes to Polls in Switzerland, no matter the subject of the vote. These non-voting voters remain at home, without exercizing their Vote's Right, either
. passively testing their Lives under a - still - Democracy, a neutral one, a direct one, or
. refusing to still take part to that "Circus" called Politics, full of Hypocrisy ...).]
[**] out of around 7 million people (babies-children-youth-adults-elderlies, Swiss citizens or Immigrants without Swiss citizenship yet, included) – a very small Country Switzerland, isn’t it? -, I ignore how many have Vote’s Right (how many are 18+, sane, with Swiss citizenship); we know that around 1 million and a half of the ACTIVE population (with Vote’s Right) refused to be invaded by minarets (political Islam, Islamic/Islamist Domination).
Here another article by PajamasMedia, which explains how minarets in Switzerland are built by political Islamic/Islamist activists, and not by “peaceful sheep of a Religion, of Peace” (which anyway claim extra human Rights for themselves, while they do not even recongnize basic human Rights to others!!!): http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/why-the-swiss-were-right-to-prohibit-construction-of-minarets
DON’T FORGET WHAT DOES THE (UNDOUBTELY) “BEAUTIFUL SONG” OF MUEZZIN SAYS: THE ISLAMIC/ISLAMIST SHAHADA (ALLAH+MUHAMMAD), AND DON’T FORGET WHAT DID MUHAMMAD SAY AND DO. NOT BECAUSE I’M GOING TO CHANT “HEIL HITLER” WITH A BEAUTIFUL AND NICE VOICE AND MELODY, THIS MAKES THE MEANING OF MY SONG BETTER THAN IT ACTUALLY IS ….
Good bye (and – appearently, from recent News – “good bye Switzerland”. They managed to modify the vote of the 57% of the population which really care about Democracy, neutral Democracy, direct Democracy. And all of that, for the sake of Islam-ism. Sorry, I have to go throwing up …).
Churches and non-Muslim houses of worship are disallowed in SOME Muslim majority countries, but not the majority. In Switzerland, Catholic church bells are prohibited from tolling in some Protestant cantons. The discrimination goes in more than one direction.
The Swiss law is despicable and silly. Westerners are supposed to be better than that.
Thomas L;
Hagia Sofia belonged to the Orthodox Church, not the Catholic. And may I point out that, in the past, mosques have been confiscated by Christians and turned into churches (ie. Spain and elsewhere). The indigenous temples in the Americas suffered the same indignity. Christians (like everyone else) weren’t above stamping their god’s home on top of someone else’s. It’s a sad fact of human conquest.
Thank you for your piece that is helpful for its insights into the Islamic world. I do, however, request an adjustment. I have recently returned from a 6-year stint in Egypt and I do know that it is possible to build new churches there–it is quite difficult, but possible. As far as synagogues go, I understand that there have been nine synagogues in Cairo renovated in the last years; in Alexandria, there is a beautiful synagogue and the Jewish cemetery there is very well kept up–it is a real beauty. I share these thoughts to give some perspective.
The Islamic world does not allow new synagogues or churches to be built.
Disinformatory garbage. The countries with the largest Islamic populations have no prohibition on churches. example:Indonesia’s churches:
http://across.co.nz/IndoChurches.html
Saying things like the muslim world, and mentioning the Palestinian claim to the Temple Mount [absurd to anyone who has the slightest knowledge of Israel or Palestine], indicates that you are either a liar or an ignorant hack. Either way, you’re lucky to have tenure madame.
First they banned the burqa – but I did not wear a burqa, so I said nothing.
Next they banned the minaret – but I did not have a minaret, so I said nothing.
Do you folks not understand that this kind of religious oppression is fundamentally incompatible with a pluralistic democratic society?
You don’t win this contest by sinking to their level. You win it by upholding the dearest values of free society. Instead, it seems you would abandon our cherished freedoms as a demonstration of irrational fear and resentment.
Peace.
DS
Islam is more than a religion. We have seperation of church and state. Islam is also governmental, and requires all those within its pervue to be Muslims or pay taxes to the Mosque. Islam is a theocracy, which is arguably the worst form of government. After all the Mullahs, god’s representatives on earth, can never be wrong.
Islam is an all encompassing government, church, and community; all rolled into one package. It encourages converting or killing those who do not believe, and especially those who convert to other religions. This is a gutter concept, and familiar as a pimp’s way of keeping his girls in line through terror. Calling this a religion is disgusting to anyone of decent faith. Mohammed was not a prophet, he was a religion pimp. His real motive was political power through convincing the ignorant,uneducated rabble he lead, that they would find joy in the next life, not this one. Mohammed was a religion pimp and Allah was his invention to control the ignorant masses he needed to control. His ministry resulted in the Arabs being the most backward people on this earth with the possible exception of sub-saharan blacks. It is time we allowed freedon of religion to Muslims, but totally reject their political restrictions on thier believers. No burquas, no head scarves outside the Mosques, no calls to prayer to disturb the tranquility of our cities, and absolutely no honor killings or genital mutilation. Any attempt to commit treasonous acts should be met with instant death. Those who cannot adapt to OUR culture need to go away. We have no need of gutter religions or those who hate our culture. Christians , Jews, and Hindus all get along, why put up with rabid dogs who can’t assimilaate. As H. rap Brown said” you’re eith part of the problem, or part of the solution”: It;s time we stopped acting like wusses and started acting like men. Islam is nothing more than a sucessful cult, perpetuated by the stupid followers of a blasphemous reject. Let’s reject this perfidious blasphemy, and ban it from our countries, just as they ban our cultures from their countries.
Thomas_: (#9):
I like your plan–except that the Hagia Sophia should be returned to the ORTHODOX Church.
Anonymous (#23):
Granted, Ms. Chesler hyperbolizes about the ban on churches and synagogues in Muslim-majority countries; but you are falling off the horse on the other side by citing the example of Indonesia as proof of Islamic tolerance. There is far more discrimination against Christians and Jews in Mulim-majority nations than there is discrimination against Muslims in Christian-majority ones. As two minutes of Google “research” would show you, it’s illegal and/or downright dangerous to be a Christian in a number of majority-Muslim nations (Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen, Iran, Iraq, even Egypt). Name me ONE majority-Christian country where it’s illegal or dangerous to practice the Muslim faith.
I can’t tell if Phyllis Chesler is opposed to religious intolerance, or just the kind that doesn’t favor her.
I wonder how she feels about the constant attempts by some to declare America to be a Christian nation.
Poster #1 is wrong. Not sure if he is willfully wrong or just unwittingly wrong. He is wrong.
Minarets DO NOT Appear in the Koran (Qur’an).
There were no minarets in Ol’ Mo’s day. Minarets came later, after the expansion of Islam. They were used as a symbol of secular control and power. Minarets don’t conquer, they occupy.
An Islamic version of ‘winning hearts and minds’.
Think about that. Since actions speak louder then words, building Minarets means the Muslims consider Europe already conquered. Now all they have to do is convert their new subjects.
We need a pool on when the terror bombings start in Switzerland. Put me down for mid January.
For George and his ilk, something doesn’t need teeth and claws to be dangerous. Nor firearms. Drop you in the middle of the Pacific and you are in grave danger, even though there isn’t anything deadly looking around. Ditto for the Gobi desert.
Getting someone to feel safe while you prepare to kill them is an old trick. So old it has a modern name. Strategy of the Indirect Approach. Since it’s football season, let me introduce you to the trap play.
Minarets look harmless, which just shows that looks can be deceiving. A suicide bomber can take your life. A Minaret takes your freedom. Which is more precious is your choice.
What’s to wonder about. Her constant, shrill complains about ‘the muslim world’ leave little to the imagination. She hates muslims; one is tempted to declare that its because she had a bad relationship with a Muslim man, but that would be the same kind of generalization that she makes about the hundreds of millions of muslims on a regular basis.
The misuse of the word racist makes an other wise good article just sad.
Islam is not a race. You are not a racist for being against islam because islam is not a race. In fact with in islam you have many races. Jew is not a race either nor is christian. In fact both have members of many races.
Laura,…
They don’t do any of the Arameic prayers in your Shul ?
Gee, the back of my Siddur mentions a lot of it was written in Jewish communities in Israel, hence many of the traditional melodies sound like the call to prayer.
There’s a huge cultural overlap.
Deal.
Yes, I meant to add that this is known as bigotry. Bigotry is a larger concept that also includes race, gender and religiously based hatred. It is true however, that thanks to writers like Chelser, many Americans consider muslims to be a “race”, despite all evidence to the contrary.
I believe a better translation of “Being kind to the cruel results in cruelty to the kind,” from the Hebrew Tanach would be: “Those who would be merciful to the cruel will soon be cruel to the merciful.”
It might be like a woman who is attracted to a man who scorns her, mistreats her, and/or strikes her. An abuser with many people who are willingly abused, unwillingly abused, or some who find the thought of abuse committed against others titillating. Could it also be those with little faith of their own somehow admiring Islams pretense of faith, though forced in many cases, a sight to behold en masse.
I haven’t quite figured it out, or yet understand, why we are demanding respect for Islam which does not respect us back. It seems to me that it is very likely, just as Islam has no compunction against demanding conversion, it also has no compunction against demanding respect not earned. I think we will be seeing quickly in our religion neutral world that indeed, respect for the unrespectable will be our forced conversion.
Finally, when commenting on the beautiful sound of the call to prayer, perhaps it is like a song where hidden in the melodic rhythm are ugly words. When we learn the lyrics chills replace delight.
You mean the country with the largest number of Christians left. That said, Indonesia is a country where Christians have been told to convert of die by Muslims, I am not sure this is an example of tolerance. Certainly this behavior is not occurring towards Muslims in Israel or any largely Christian nation.
http://www.persecution.org/Countries/indonesia.htm
As to the Temple Mount. You were not specific about your disagreement. There are many records of Muslims acknowledged it is the site of the Jewish temple, overwhelming archeological evidence, and recordings of Palestinian officials denying it. Regardless, it seems most people who live in Jerusalem are not violently opposed to the current upper / lower division of the site. Actually, there is a similar arangement in the Church of the Holy Seplucture which is divided among four denominations.
—————-
The Islamic world does not allow new synagogues or churches to be built.
Disinformatory garbage. The countries with the largest Islamic populations have no prohibition on churches. example:Indonesia’s churches:
http://across.co.nz/IndoChurches.html
Saying things like the muslim world, and mentioning the Palestinian claim to the Temple Mount [absurd to anyone who has the slightest knowledge of Israel or Palestine], indicates that you are either a liar or an ignorant hack. Either way, you’re lucky to have tenure madame.
Anonymosity, you do realize that your whole “I-Am-Not-A-Bigot-So-I-Won’t-Say-The-Following” Gambit is frankly disgusting?
Yes, I think that banning minarets is a mistake. But failure to acknowledge radical Islam is just as much a mistake as discriminating against real Muslims.
Trite though this may sound, one of my best friends IS a Muslim. For the purposes of this comment, I will call him S.
S is of Persian descent, but he was born in CT, like me. When his parents came to this country, they changed their surname. He is, aside from skin color, totally indistinguishable from any other American teenager. He aspires to a career as a computer technician. He’s a guitar player, is a very accommodating person, and makes all of his friends feel valued regardless of religion.
Granted, he’s not terribly devout. He was recently bemused to learn that he’s a Shi’a. He prays, but not as regularly as some Imams would like. He doesn’t think much about the hereafter. Why should he? He’s only nineteen.
And I am frightened for him, but not because of right-wing hate mongering. I’m scared because I think that the media’s interpretation of Islam, on both sides of the spectrum, is that ITS ADHERENTS ARE INHERENTLY DIFFERENT FROM EVERYONE ELSE. The right says that Muslims are dangerous. The left says that they are abnormal creatures who cannot not live like other citizens. If the right alone was the source of bigotry, then it would be much less dangerous.
But the right’s bigotry is fed by the left; conservatives are told that they must make special exceptions for Muslims by liberals. Conservatives are told that Islam is a religion of peace, and are shouted down when they ask about Islamic terrorism. Conservatives are told, by liberals, that we must reach out to the “moderate” elements in Al Qaeda and the Taliban.
Claiming that there are moderates in terrorist organizations is much, much more harmful to Muslims than taking down a few minarets. The left is, knowingly or not, blurring the line between normal, decent people and megalomaniacal madmen. Slowly but surely, the “progressives” of this country are feeding a monster that may devour them all.
And what will happen to S? Will he be counted among the monsters because the well-meaning left has forbidden acknowledgment of real evil? S deflects such concerns with humor. I think his reaction to Phyllis Chesler’s article would be a laugh and a shrug. But that’s because he’s an average American teenager who is defined not by his faith but by his actions. He doesn’t need special treatment.
I would, in conclusion, advise other commenters to stop and think before insulting the author; voice your opinion, be civil, and try to change her mind with logic rather than abuse. If you don’t, you’re only serving to tip the scales in the favor of hatred.
Minarets are not the problem, although I can see why the Swiss wanted them banned. The problem is what goes inside some mosques housed in the West. If anything is to be banned it is the call to destroy the infidel shouted from the “pulpits” of those mosques.
The main problem the West has with Islam is that a good chunk of Islam (if not all) is a political ideology masquerading around as a religion. That puts in the West (especially the US) at a disadvantage because of our non-interference with religion. We need to determine whether Islam is indeed a religon or whether it is not, and then go from there. (As long as Sura 9 is in the Koran, which requires world conquest and then conversion or death or death for the conquered, I would consider Islam a religion.)
Larsen E. Whipsnade @ #18: You forget the lachrymose history of Jews in Europe beginning with the Crusades and extending through blood libels and pogroms, all culminating in the Holocaust. But not only Jews died at Auschwitz. As Spanish reporter put it several years ago: Europe died at Auschwitz. Eurpoean Civilization and Christianity will survive, but I think they will survive primarily America.
Finally, it should be observed that Switzerland was the country that required a big J on the passports of Jews prior to WWII, so I don’t think there hands are so clean either.
David S @24;
First they came for the Swastika, but I wasn’t a nazi, so I said nothing.
Then they came for the HAmmer and Sickle, but I wasn’t a commie, so I said Nothing.
There may be (stike that, ARE) some moderate, non-devout moslems (like in Nonner @36), but they are doing a terrible job of speaking out against those who have “high-jacked” the religion. Heck, they’re not doing any thing, in fact. Intimidated, cowed, not aware or prcticing taqyiaa, makes no difference.
And I,too, have heard the call to prayer and it sent chills down my spine. I have read the koran, and it turned my stomach and kept me up at night. Reading the history books (many, and varied) leads me to the inescable conclusion that it’s comin’ and I feel sorry for the first mf that tries to put my daughters in a burka or tell my sons they have to, well do everything that moslems have to do!
It’s a totalitarian ideology, the very name means submission. I’ll assume you know that because even though I disagree with almost everything I’ve seen you write, I do believe you’re educated enough to know that. Resisting a totalitarian ideology is an obligation of any free society that wants to maintain their freedom.
People bashed McCarthy, much like people bash those sounding the alarm today, and Mcarthy was correct in form and substance.
over
Two things strike me:
1. Our media is lopsided in their coverage. Sorry for stating the obvious, but as Ms. Chesler points out, they appear hell bent on jumping all over the decision in Switzerland, while happy to ignore human right’s violations in Muslim countries that occur every day.
2. Minarets are meaningful for several reasons. Not only are they symbolic, but they enable Muslims to loudly broadcast messages far and wide. They are doing this here in the U.S. (try going to church ihn Deerborn, MI and see how they works out for you these days) and it is a very dangerous tool to be in the hands of those who plots against us.
Thank you, Ms. Chesler, for your tireless work speaking out on these important matters.
23. Anonymous:
The Islamic world does not allow new synagogues or churches to be built.
Disinformatory garbage. The countries with the largest Islamic populations have no prohibition on churches. example:Indonesia’s churches
Can a synagogue be built in Saudi Arabia? Can a synagogue be built in Bethlehem?
In 1948 and following, about 3/4 of a million Sephardi Jews left their homes in Arab and Muslim countries out of fear for their lives. Why do Sephardi Jews have no interest in returning to live in the Muslim countries that their families are from?
Christianity is Middle Eastern in origin. One might expect thriving Christian communities there. Instead we see Copts being persecuted in Egypt, Christian Arabs forced out of Bethlehem and Nazareth, and Chaldeans who would rather live in Detroit than Baghdad.
After 9-11, some Muslims danced in the streets, and passed out candy. I read in New York City some followers of allah the moon god danced in the streets after the Fort Hood Islamic terrorist attack.
After every terror attack by Muslims on America, several Mosques should be destroyed. Soon, the followers of Mohammed would get the message.
Let’s start with 1983 Marine Barracks murder, and work our way forward.
allah akbar baby!
“The Islamic world does not allow new synagogues or churches to be built.
Disinformatory garbage.”
You, sir (or m’am) are the one practicing disinformation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pact_of_Umar
{snipped} from the pact of Umar;
“Dhimmi are granted the right to practice their own religious rites in privacy. Manifesting their religion publicly or converting anyone to it was prohibited, as was keeping their children from becoming Muslim, or building houses of worship or repairing such as fell into ruins.”
This decision was reached in AD717 CE (Christian era). It was later modified somewhat to allow Dhimmi’s that surrendered without fighting some leeway on the subject. As in the form of bribes. Bribes are an integral part of Islamic society.
My question to you is are you lying or mistaken about the facts?
I’ve personally been inside synagogues and/or churches in several Muslim countries: Turkey, Morocco, Malaysia, Indonesia, Qatar.
Muslims building towering minarets in foreign lands is akin to dogs marking their own territory. It’s a blatant act of Islamic imperialism, and when those minarets go up they’re telling us they own us thereof. Many muslims still believe half of Spain is theirs for goodness sakes.
In a round about way it also prescribes their intolerance of and dislike to coexist with other faiths, which is why many Churches in Islamic lands are raised to the ground in a heartbeat given the right chaotic circumstances. Systematically driving out other faiths, be it with insanely oppressive taxes or sheer skulduggery is a popular past-time in many Muslim countries.
Once they take root in neighborhoods there’s no going back, without lots of bloodshed and misery.
Unrelenting bombing of the islamofacist terrorists should do the trick. Peach through superior firepower.
Yes, and by the way, where is the outrage from alleged “peace loving muslims” over suicide bombings, hijackings, kidnappings, aiding and abetting murder of US troops in Iraq. That’s right, there is no outrage because all muslims are complicit in the conspiracy.
Perhaps the Soviets had it right. Kidnap a Soviet attache, Soviets abduct a PLO stooge then cut his arms off then dump his body in front of arafats PLO. Voila, no more Soviets kidnapped, attache returned unharmed.
32. Phranc:
Yes, I meant to add that this is known as bigotry. Bigotry is a larger concept that also includes race, gender and religiously based hatred. It is true however, that thanks to writers like Chelser, many Americans consider muslims to be a “race”, despite all evidence to the contrary.
———————————————– Wow. I love how some people find a need to post under some one elses handle. The dishonesty of some people is just pathetic. I didn’t write that and my punctuation isn’t that good.
Those minarets in the Swiss poster looked like those that surround the Hagia Sophia see at these links
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Hagia_Sophia_%28Constantinople%29
http://www.huliq.com/1/89248/turkey-feels-pain-swiss-minaret-ban
To an Orthodox Christian these particular minaret are symbols of oppression. And it is not only the Swiss concerned, also some Norwegians
http://frontpagemag.com/2009/12/09/will-europe-put-its-foot-down-by-hege-storhaug/
Islam is as Islam does and we all know what Hate and Death CULT Islam does.
Historically, minarets are not religious in nature – they were built as signs of domination, portraying for all to see that Islam had conquered the site. A minaret is, by its very nature, a sign of dominance and agression. Yet, I suppose, it directly reflects the barbaric faith and culture quite well
33. I would add that the Hebrew word for mercy is the same as the word for love, and I’m sure everyone here is familiar with it- ruth. It is the root of the word “ruthless.” Even to a troll, that must be self-explanatory.
Excellent point, that nobody ever mentions.
Reciprocity, a word to defeat islamist propaganda.
#22 FYI…..the Ben Ezra synagogue in Cairo, which was the main synagogue for years and years, has been closed for over 20 years and her front door is chained. I asked my tour guide why it has been closed for so long and he replied “the boiler doesn’t work”. Yes, of course, the boiler……
43. Mike Shuster:
I’ve personally been inside synagogues and/or churches in several Muslim countries: Turkey, Morocco, Malaysia, Indonesia, Qatar.
To answer you Mike, the main synagogue in Istanbul has a guard outside and you can get in by special request ONLY. You have to write in advance if you wish to visit it. The main synagogue in Cairo has been closed for years (see my post above). Jews in Morocco, Yemen, Qatar, Syria, Iran, Indonesia live in DAILY FEAR for their lives and regularly undergo persecution, verbal and physical assault, kidnappings, forced conversions and death at the hands of their Moslem overlords.
Toronto Girl;
The tour guide is probably correct. Churches need official permission before effecting repairs, and that can be hard to acquire. I imagine the same legal disability applies to synagogues.
RE #9/Thomas_L:
[...] Give back the Hagia Sophia to the Catholic Church and you can have a few minarets. [...]
A correction – Hagia Sophia was the main orthodox cathedral in Constantinopolis, i.e. in the what nowdays is called Istanbul.
However, if we really want to go technical, you are right (probably involuntarily – hope you don’t mind), because, the Eastern Church still maintains, despite the 1054? schism, in its very oficial name, the term Catholic which means “Universal”.
Also, if we go uber technical, the Catholic term is even more correct, because ECCLESIA is not SPLITTABLE, and after a “man-caused” estrangement of about 1000 years, the two sides in cause are getting surprisingly closer.
And more – considering the geological pace of these rifts, it is amazing how fast have liberals managed to finish the Episcopalian Church – my bet is that in about ten years or so the Episcopalian Church will shrivel to sect-sized dimenssions, the parishioners having defected to either the Catholic-Vatican authority, or to the un-erratic African Anglicanism -
Heh- sic transit gloria mundi – just a generation ago the Episcopalians were regarded as those “who matter in the USA” (see the saying about Jews: rich and influential like an Episcopalian, and voting like portorican). And now – my, my…
Regards -
RE #24/David S:
[...] Do you folks not understand that this kind of religious oppression is fundamentally incompatible with a pluralistic democratic society? [...] Peace. [...]
Dave, can you give me the phone # of your peyote supplier?
Regards -
I am no Hebrew scholar and there is much vocabulary with which I am unfamiliar, but as far as I know, buster, the root meaning “mercy” is RKhM and the word for love has the root AHV. “Mercy” may have overtones of love, or it may not.
It’s quite possible I’m missing something; correct me if I’m wrong, please.
And yes, it would be nice for some western leaders to tell the Arab Muslims that they merit the respect they give others. I don’t even think that concept exists in mainstream Muslim thought.
Shuster
You can not be in peace even in death. This is from the moderate Malaysia:
Claiming a corpse in Malaysia: M Moorthy, 36, was a national hero in Malaysia due to his mountaineering exploits, especially his being a member of his country’s first expedition to the top of Mount Everest in May 1997. He was also a Hindu, the child of Hindu parents, married to a Hindu wife, who as recently as two months ago was interviewed on television about his preparations for the Hindu festival of Diwali. But he was paralyzed from the waist down due to a 1998 injury and a fall from his wheelchair on Nov. 11 led to his death on Nov. 20. His family, naturally, wanted to give him a Hindu funeral.
At that point, however, an Islamic court sided with Moorthy’s former colleagues in the Malaysian Armed Forces who claimed that he had converted to Islam; the court would not even permit the family, non-Muslims, to appear before it to dispute the matter. A dreadful scene then occurred at the mortuary as family members jostled with state Islamic officials and former soldiers for the body. The family lost and applied to the country’s Appellate and Special Powers High Court, which ruled that it could not override the Islamic courts in such a matter. Moorthy in the end was buried as a Muslim.
The president of the Malaysian Consultative Council of Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism and Sikhism, Rev. Sri K. Dhammananda said the council was “very disturbed” by what happened and called this development “a crisis for non-Muslims because they can seek no legal remedy.” He called for the repeal of a subsection of the Federal Constitution “to make it clear that the Syariah [Shari‘a] Court has no jurisdiction to hear matters involving non-Muslims.” (December 29, 2005)
I would bet David S. isn’t ‘gonna come back here, but I wanted to ask him if he did, and this goes for the rest of the like-minded brain-dead trolls here, “At what point are we allowed to defend ourselves and our ‘pluralistic democratic society’”?
out
@60. nolan:
I would bet David S. isn’t ‘gonna come back here, but I wanted to ask him if he did, and this goes for the rest of the like-minded brain-dead trolls here, “At what point are we allowed to defend ourselves and our ‘pluralistic democratic society’”?
If you think abandoning our cherished freedoms is the means to defending ourselves, you probably don’t see any irony in destroying a village in order to save it. A minaret is not a danger to a pluralistic society. Banning religious practices is.
Peace.
DS
note the duplicity of the muslims (freeq)
he wrote “And may I point out that, in the past, mosques have been confiscated by Christians and turned into churches such as in spain.”
You fail to add a little detail. The mosques in spain were previously christian churches, such as the mosque in Cordoba.
Nice spin in trying to draw the typical leftist moral equivalence. Too bad lies do not stand. The cathedral in cordoba was a christian church turned into a mosque and turned again into a church.
Secondly you claim that Churches and non-Muslim houses of worship are disallowed in SOME Muslim majority countries, but not the majority.
When corrected by multiple people and actually caught again lying, you turn your sentence into “Churches need official permission before effecting repairs, and that can be hard to acquire. I imagine the same legal disability applies to synagogues.”
It is possible that some muslim majority countries need to keep a civilized facade for tourism or other international relationship reasons while on the other hand the people and the goverment do anything in their power to keep those other infidel places of worship closed, wrecked, under siege, harassed and submitted.
The church in alexandria, egypt has been under siege by ten thousand muslim hordes fired up by the friday prayer. It is an outlet, you need some churches around so muslim youths can practice stoning and violence.
HAve you ever thought that the just hatred for you muslims depend also from your total inability to look at yourself critically instead of spreading the usual lies of the religion of peace?
you show no remorse, no mercy and no empathy for the people who currently suffer under your imperialism worldwide while you are very quick in finger pointing, demand and denounce the slightest negative comment directed at you.
Among 1 billion muslim there is NO ONE (and I repeat NO ONE) that cares about human rights of minorities. The only ones caring are the few who converted to a more decent religion. Aren’t you ashamed of youself?
Do you really believe you will outnumber anybody else before the people say “enough”?
# 61 David S says
“If you think abandoning our cherished freedoms is the means to defending ourselves, you probably don’t see any irony in destroying a village in order to save it. A minaret is not a danger to a pluralistic society. Banning religious practices is.”
So I take it you are in complete agreement with the Mohammedan ‘RELIGIOUS PRACTICE” of Shariah LAW and agree to THIEVES having ARMS and LEGS cut off and Adulterous WOMEN being stoned to DEATH and a Woman’s word only counting for HALF that of a Man and a Woman having to provide FOUR witnesses to be able to claim Rape. Are these are the RELIGIOUS PRACTICES you support you MORAL EQUIVALENCE spouting idiot because they are ALL part and parcel of Islam.
Moonbats like you would do well to engage your brain before spouting nonsense.
Don’t run away from the question moonbat defend SHARIAH or admit you are a fool.
Western ignorance about Islam is truly astounding.
I just watched Campbell Brown on CNN interviewing Rev. Franklin Graham who stated clearly and factually that Muslims are forbidden to change their religion, and those who do are subject to a Koran based, Sharia law death fatwa. Campbell Brown retorted incredulously and patronizingly “I can’t believe that”, then quickly changed the subject.
Franklin Graham was factually correct.
Campbell Brown was dangerously ignorant.
The simple truth is that Islam is:
- segregationist
- supremecist
- totalitarian
- intolerant
- fear & intimidation based
- revenge based
- misogynistic
- militant
- barbarically violent
But don’t believe me….please do your own research. I encourage everyone to read the Koran, the Ahadith, the Sunnah, the life of Muhammed, Sharia law, and the history of the expansion of Islam.
I encourage everyone to research these terms and references:
- Jihad
- Dhimmi
- Jizya
- Saifullah
- Mushrikun
- “People of the Book”
- Houri
- Koran (2:191-193); (2:216); (2:223); (3:151); (5:33); (8:12); (8:39); (9:5)
- Bukhari (52:177); (52:220); (8:387)
- Ibn Ishaq (327); Tabari 7:97
I’ll help get you started on your homework:
Bukhari (52:220) – Allah’s Apostle Muhammed said ‘I have been made victorious with terror’
Still believe Islam is a “Religion of Peace”? Res Ipsa Loquitur.
~ The Infidel Alliance
#26 wrote: “….Google “research” would show you, it’s illegal and/or downright dangerous to be a Christian in a number of majority-Muslim nations Saudi Arabia….”
And this is why “intelligence” is required to operate “google.”
My “teachings” tell me the Muslim nations, the Christian nations and the Jewish nation were all blessed by God…..its been “mans teachings” that has been the detriment to those blessings.
I have lived in worked in Arabia for 15 years. I am a Christian. I can assure anyone I am far “safer” in this country than my wife is in the States. I have a personal difference in my belief system with those in this country, but can say the large majority are peace-loving people here, and many I would consider as a friend. They respect my beliefs and I respect theirs – even though neither of us agree. Crime in this country is nearly non-existent….and even more rare towards Christians. And I’m not saying there is no hatred in this country….just less shown here, than in the rest of the world.
I would ask #26 – have you ever been to this country….other than your trips through cyberspace?
Dear #65 Thomas,
You may feel “safer” in the totalitarian Islamic kingdom, but do you feel free? The people of North Korea also probably feel “safe” but as in the Islamic kingdom is is because of fear. Are totalitarian fear based societies your prescription for “safe” societies?
The issue is not how safe you feel in the Islamic kingdom, but how safe the rest of the world feels in relation to Islam.
The crowning achievement of Islams ‘holy prophet’ Muhammed is his barbaric legacy: the 1,400 ISLAMIC WORLD WAR that rages on every continent except Antarctica, against everyone and everything “non-Islamic”.
Let’s look at the facts:
Islam against:
- the Catholics in the Philippines (routine slaughter & beheadings)
- the Christians in Indonesia (routine slaughter & beheadings)
- Australian tourists in Bali (blown up…twice)
- the Buddhists in Thailand (routine slaughter & beheadings)
- the Hindus & Sikhs in India (hundreds of years battling the Islamic Jihad)
- the Jews in Mumbai (slaughtered)
- the Zoroastrians & Baha’i in Iran (virtually exterminated)
- Islamic converts to Christianity in Afghanistan (death fatwa)
- ancient Buddhist statues in Bamiyan, Afghanistan (blown up)
- the Chaldean Christians in Iraq (routine persecution, slaughter & church burnings)
- the Jews in Israel (routine attacks against civilians, threat of 2nd genocide)
- the Jews in Yemen (nearly exterminated)
- S. Korean & German tourists in Yemen (blown up)
- the Coptic Christians in Egypt (routine persecution, slaughter & church attacks)
- the Christians & animists in Sudan (genocide)
- the Christians in Kenya (constant Jihadist threat from Obama’s homies)
- the Christians in Nigeria (routine Jihadist attacks)
- U.S. embassies in Tanzania & Kenya (blown up)
- the athiests in Europe (the prime target)
- the native French in Paris (torched car terrorism)
- Jews in Paris (read the grisly story of Ilan Halimi, a Jewish shop clerk who was kidnapped, tortured and killed in 2006)
- the native Swedes in Malmo (Islamic rape brigades)
- the native Dutch in Amsterdam (routinely terrorized)
- Dutch politicians (Geert Wilders & Ayyan Hirsi Ali – death fatwa)
- Dutch cinematographers (Theo vanGogh savagely murdered by an Islamist in broad daylight)
- Dutch cartoonists (Kurt Westergaard – death fatwa)
- Dutch newspaper editors (Flemming Rose, Jyllands-Posten’s culture editor – death fatwa)
- Train commuters in Spain (blown up)
- Tube commuters in London (blown up)
- Airports in Scotland (blown up)
- Jews in Argentina (blown up)
- Jews in Caracas (blown up)
- Twin Tower office workers in N.Y. (blown up – twice)
- Defense workers in the Pentagon (blown up – airliner jihad)
- Army/Navy military recruiters in Little Rock (gunned down by an Islamist)
- Soldiers in F.t Hood Texas (gunned down by an Islamist)
- Pedestrians at the U. of N. Carolina (run down with an SUV by Islamist)
- Journalists like Daniel Pearl (savagely decapitated by Islamists)
- Nick Berg, Kim Sung-il, Piotr Stanczyk, Jack Hensley, Eugene Armstrong, Paul Johnson (savagely decapitated by Islamists)
- Jewish centers in Seattle (slaughtered by Islamist Jihadist)
- Jewish centers in Toronto (slaughtered by Islamist Jihadist)
And on, and on, and on……….
It is Islam against everyone, everything, everywhere that is not Islamic.
It is Dar al-Islam against Dar al-Harb. Them against us, not us against them.
THE ISLAMIC WORLD WAR – mandated by Allah & Muhammed in the Koran & Ahadith: Bukhari (8:387) – Allah’s Apostle Muhammed said, “I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah
Let’s face the facts and call it what it is. It is not a ‘War on Terror’ against a few ragtag misunderstanders of Islam. It is nothing less than: THE ISLAMIC WORLD WAR.
THE ISLAMIC WORLD WAR – Muhammed’s legacy – it’s real.
~ The Infidel Alliance
Thomas you are safe in Saudi Arabia for now because they need infidel expertise to get their oil out of the ground and run their other technologies that they are not advanced enough to run themselves. The minute the Saudis don’t need infidels, you will find out exactly what the status is of you and your wife under Islam.