Each of the Presidential candidates and those who support them are fighting for the soul of America. Each has a radically different world view; each inhabits a radically different culture. They listen to different music, watch different movies, read different media. Each mainly socializes only with others who are like themselves. They do not talk to those with whom they disagree and when they do, it is often with anger and contempt.
I have lived in both worlds. I still do. There are good people on both sides of the great divide. Nevertheless, their values and tastes are different. One world is a glittering and violent urban metropolis where one can lead an anonymous life–or reach for the stars. The other world is a Small Town where everyone knows everybody’s “business,” prays together, helps out in emergencies, joins the civilian fire department, and usually joins the Army.
And here’s a newsflash for you: Some people can live in a large city psychologically even if they live in a small town and vice versa.
The Democratic National Convention had music by the great Stevie Wonder; Jennifer Hudson, like Senator Obama, a sudden and recent star who won an Academy award for her supporting role in Dreamgirls; Melissa Etheridge; Sheryl Crow; the very popular soul singer, John Legend who performed twice, once alone and once with Will.i.am, a member of the funk/hip-hop group, The Black Eyed Peas. Robert Moore, a Rosebud Sioux tribal Council member, sang a traditionally non-traditional version of the national anthem.
The entire convention, especially the last night when Obama spoke, was the equivalent of a rock concert. To many people, especially younger people, this is what moves them, what is real. Only celebrity, “spectacle,” performance, and popular music have authority, are familiar, and command their respect.
The Republican National Convention had very little music. I myself saw and heard only one young Christian rock singer. Maybe there was more music and I missed it. Perhaps the Republicans decided to focus on the speakers and not on the entertainment. The RNC website lists no musical entertainers, probably courtesy of Hurricane Gustav.
However, the presumably anti-feminist Republicans have now chosen a woman as their Vice-Presidential candidate. Democratic feminists are not at all happy about this because despite Palin’s oratorical gifts and enormous charm, she is a feminist–but from “another world,” one in which feminists are married, God-fearing, pro-military, pro-guns, pro-American energy independence–and anti-big government, anti-taxes, anti-jihad and anti-abortion. It is feared that Palin may also be pro-censorship. Her position on women’s economic rights is as yet unclear.
Today, the Democrats have announced they will employ a troop of “female surrogates,” including Senator Clinton of New York, Governor Janet Napolitano of Arizona, and Governor Kathryn Sibelius of Kansas to take Governor Palin on and hopefully steal her thunder away from voters in battleground states.
Sounds like it will be a page from my book Woman’s Inhumanity to Woman.
I wonder why the guys are so uncomfortable taking a woman on publicly? In the political arena, they do so all the time, usually behind closed doors–except if that woman is Senator Clinton. How ironic, that Senator Obama has had to turn to her now.
In my opinion, President Amadinejad might indeed have formidable opponents in Senator McCain and Governor Palin who understand that we are at war and that it is one we must win. Unlike Senator Obama, I bet they do not view the terrorists as “perverting the Islamic faith” (Obama said this in his interview with O’Reilly) but rather, as expressing it all too well. On this very point, (whether there is a “good” and “peaceful” Islam or not), our Republic will either stand or fall.
To be fair: Whether or not they can always practice what they preach, (Clinton got a pass on his various sexual assaults), to their credit, Democrats condemn racism, sexism, homophobia and poverty; support women’s reproductive rights, including birth control and non-abstinence-based sex education, equal pay for equal work, big government, and independence from foreign oil. They tend to oppose the military in general and the war in Iraq in particular.
This is not exactly the Republican Party platform. The Republicans are talking about soldiering and Islamic fundamentalist terrorism and about the dangers of appeasing such terrorists.
As I said: They are cultures, perhaps worlds, apart. McCain has said that he wants to work with everyone, “Republicans, Democrats, and Independents.” I am not sure that Obama has weighed in on this precise point as yet, but he has said that he would sit down and try to work with America’s enemies.
In 2000, when President Bush won (others say “when Bush stole”) the election, the Democrats became enraged, some say “deranged.” That rage has grown. If McCain wins–I predict that the cultural wars will not only intensify but will turn into the beginnings of the next Civil War in America.
What do you think will happen after one side wins and the other side loses? Will blue or red states want to secede from the union? Will there be more violent and ugly confrontations upon encountering ideas and practices with which one disagrees?
Folks: I am in bed with a fever and battling an infection and cannot do further justice to this theme at this time. I hope my readers can fill in the blanks and point out to me what I haven’t covered.
NEWSFLASH: To My Readers: I am very glad to hear from and publish those of you who write–but I am uncomfortable with the direct insults that some, but not most, readers are hurling at each other. Going forward, I will not publish comments that attack someone else as “paranoid, fascist, idiot, moron, ” etc. Attack the ideas, oppose the issues at will. Describe a point of view as “fascist” but not the person themselves.
This is not a high school (or shall I say college) class. Too much is at stake for us to degenerate into simplistic and insulting name-calling.
Thank you.
The Ms Manners of the Internet
People tupically move from small towns to the city. They then may move from the city to the suburbs. It is much less common for city people to move to small towns, although sometimes it happens. My father came to America from Krakow, Poland. During the Depression, he wanted to move back. My mother, who came from the small town of Ropczyce, refused to move back. She won. That’s why I am alive today. When I saw where my father came from and where my mother came from in Poland, I understood why he wanted to go back and she didn’t, even though the scenery around Ropczyce is beautiful.
At the Republican Convention, the speakers talked about Washington as if it were part of a country that isn’t America. This is odd, since President Bush is a Republican, and there have been Republican majorities in Congress in the relatively recent past.
It is natural for competing parties to hate each other. Most citizens, on the other hand, agree with each of the parties on different issues.
When Democrats talk about energy, they may metnion the possibility of public transportation. Republicans never do. When Republicans talk about energy, they support offshore drilling. Democrats never do. Neither increasing the possibilities for public transportation nor finding new sources for oil offshore can solve the energy problen alone. One needs to try several different techniques at once.
Religions, historically, have no tradition of women’s rights. Urban environments, historically, have no tradition of joining the army. Our coutnry needs to defend itself; it also needs to pursue rights for women, gays, and minorities. The reason we want our country to defend itself is because America is the land of women’s rights, civil rights, and gay rights—all phenomena that arose in areas where people are likely to be pacifists and where they don’t understand that Islamists want to destroy our rights.
Life is complicated.
Feel better soon!
“In 2000, when President Bush won (others say “when Bush stole”) the election, the Democrats became enraged, some say “deranged.” That rage has grown. If McCain wins–I predict that the cultural wars will not only intensify but will turn into the beginnings of the next Civil War in America.”
Phyllis, the above statement is from your recent column. I hope you are right because if they win and want to inflict their views into my life I will certainly take part in the war. The pro-choice, pro-women, anti-censorship, people, as many of us are, do not insist that the religous zealots follow in our footsteps. If they think we will take their laws ie: overturning Roe v. Wade without a fight they are wrong.
I feel I’m caught between the two Americas, and if there were a Civil War, I wouldn’t know which side to take.
The democrats seem to be moving ever farther to the left and republicans to the right. I don’t understand why democrats cannot see that we can be fair and tolerant of other cultures, but look at the reality of a culture of violence that is right now being promoted throughout most of the Islamic world. I heard only yesterday on NPR a female Islamic doctor speaking about her Muslim friends. They all studied and interned in NY, but were “satisfied” that 9/11 was the right and justified action against the US. Why must democrats always support the underdog in every case. When Israel was a struggling nation of Holocaust survivors, they were all for them. Now that Israel has, in only 60 years, been able to transform their nation into a strong, stabel democracy, the democrats run to the side that vilifies every action Israel takes.
Why must the republicans try to insert their personal religions into government policy? I am religious myself, but see no reason to impose my beliefs on others. I agree that we must remain diligent in our fight against ratical Islam (which today is most of Islam), but we must also acknowledge when we have been dead wrong in the invasion of a sovereign nation.
Now I don’t know who I should support: a misogynistic party with the smooth-talking politican that has literally done nothing of consequence politically in his life–or: the well-tested politican who was willing to give a nod to the women of the US, but whose party supports laws opposed to women’s rights.
There’s always plan C: move to th UK.
I hate to have to point out these two verities:
1. The portrayal of Democrats and Republicans in these comments are strawmen (or, if you must, strawpeople).
2. In the event of a REAL civil war, the sworn duty of every soldier, sailor, airman, and Marine is to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign AND domestic. So… from where do these people enlist?
3. Consequent of 2: How are your marksmanship skills?
Ches, please get well soon.
Go with Joe (Lieberman)!
Yes, what Rock_Rega said.
Exactly.
Lieberman Democrat
“If McCain wins–I predict that the cultural wars will not only intensify but will turn into the beginnings of the next Civil War in America.”
No, I don’t agree with this.
In fact, I believe just the opposite is true.
Remember what Bill Clinton said about Candidate X and Candidate Y.
McCain has proven he is willing to compromise.
Obama never reached across the aisle that I’m aware of.
Get well soon.
Well, if there is a civil war, I’ll be on the side that supports the 2nd amendment.
MG: I must be speaking to and hearing lots of strawpeople. Not quite sure I got your last comments.
My dear Ms.Chesler: was so hoping you would comment on the vapidity and predictable ( down to the text deployed )mumbles of G.Steinem’s recent screed in the LATimes re: Palin’s chromosome simil. with Hillary-or is it Hilary (pace: Sir Edmund )?Steinem , methinks , left her feminist soul at the haircolourists and must need new aviator specs…she can neither hear nor see , apparently. Does it matter – in this critical battle over sexism – whether the woman in question has an abortion or carries a child to term? No! What matters is that Palin is a positive role model for ALL women/young girls…was Hillary? Who pimped for power her whole career…word!
Ms. Chesler, Keen insight on the clash of ideologies being represented from our present major two party system. The mere fact that it is only two major participating parties representing the polar opposite interests of our very complex issues at stake in our current history of this country, means it will always remain this way, at opposing spectrums. The current negative emotional climate we are witnessing is just the beginning of the coping mechanisms to be displayed as rapidly intensifying issues over core beliefs become reactionary and angrier in nature and behavior. I share in your foreshadowing hypothesis. The anger is embroiling just like your fever. It will continue to increase until the weaker competitors fall or wins, but it really doesn’t make any difference anymore. Success for either party this time will bring civil vengeance to demand equality unlike anything we have ever experienced in the US before.
G-d speed to your return to good health.
I predict that the cultural wars will not only intensify but will turn into the beginnings of the next Civil War in America.
What do you think will happen after one side wins and the other side loses? Will blue or red states want to secede from the union? Will there be more violent and ugly confrontations upon encountering ideas and practices with which one disagrees?
The divide is there, and even more marked when you look at subgroups. 90% of blacks and civilian government employees are Democrats. 85% of the military are republicans or conservative-leaning independents, blue dog Democrats. Most violent criminals come from families that traditionally vote Democratic, but also elite academics and wealthy Jews – while Christian whites more and more see Republicans as where they belong.
A Civil War grows more likely because America has financial problems that will not be solvable without really screwing various groups, the Constitution has become frozen and unamendable, American standards of living are set to decline with Open Borders and Globalization.
And more and more people are frustrated that nothing changes and are habituated by culture into believing, even knowing, that violent action is the highest, most effective version of “the squeaky wheel gets the grease”.
If violent struggle breaks out, on paper, the edge goes now to “red forces”. They have the energy sources, all the food supplies, and can exist if the blue cities and welfare settlements are cut off from them…but not vice-versa.
The outcome could change if the progressives argue that conservatives only exist to serve the CEOs, fatcats, and tools of the Richest 2%. Then it becomes 98% wanting the wealth that the richest 2% set up rules and laws to favor them sucking up all monetary gains from GNP growth, government pork to businesses, outsourcing and globalization.
Then the “Red force” loses the battle.
The outcome, if there is an ugly Civil War with lots of deaths is likely not secession. But removing the losers from power with a new Constitution. Isolation of the losers – not in their own states that have to be split off but in red area warrens or blue city ghettos. Disenfranchise the losers from voting, eliminate their access to court for lawsuits. Enforce the law brutally on any new insurrection until the conditions that caused the 2nd Civil War are eliminated from the culture.
The other type of possible civil war is a racial one.
Blacks against everyone else. Sure to be a loser for blacks.
If mass black rioting and crime breaks out the solution is likely not to ask “what must be given to blacks to stop them from self destructive behavior” as was done in the liberal 60s, but instead, with the failure of massive tax revenue and affirmative action to fix the pathologies to take a much harsher line: “Screw them and their burnt-out neighborhoods…its not like they can ever vote again”.
Then you have the Atzlan hispanic radicals that want a separate SW and will not be permitted to secede.
But the aftermath of any civil war be one in which not ALL people of the sort on the losing side would be stigmatized on looks, ethnicity.
The Israelis have shown that the security technology exists to keep two near identical looking peoples – “enemy” Palestinians and Israelis of non-Askenazi or Ethiopian origin (Jew or Israeli Palestinian citizens) – separate.
Most Americans are somewhere between the extremes you cite. The major political parties tend to be dominated by more extreme and mobilized elements from their political bases. This turns a lot of people off because they don’t like being compelled to chose between a theocracy and the People’s Republic of Santa Monica. E.J. Dionne wrote about this false choice, this polarized politics, in “Why Americans Hate Politics”. Ex. most Americans find abortion distateful, but they don’t want to outlaw it categorically because of the cruelty and hypocrisy involved.
Also, the Republicans have focused on divisive social issues in order to perpetuate their power. This diverts attention away from the impoverishment of the formerly middle class, the increased economic insecurity due to a fraying social safety net and economic competition from the developing world, and a deregulated financial system that is
becoming dangerously fragile. Economic insecurity and calamity destroys families. I’ve seen it happen!
With respect to the growing threat of Islam, I believe that Obama/Biden have the better plan: the development of renewable energy resources and the more judicious application of military power. Just because Putin or the Islamo-Fascists wave red hankies in front of us, that doesn’t mean that we always have to charge like a bull. They just want to bleed us. Our military is bogged down in the Iraq quicksand. What are the Bush II goals in Iraq? Why do we need to keep Iraq together? What’s the benefit to us? So much violence has always been needed to keep that artificial state together. Although General Patraeus’s Surge has been a military success, we don’t know whether it will be a political success for the United States. Are the Arabs going to be grateful for our sacrifices?
Finally, I remind Phyllis of something the Zionist leader David Ben-Gurion said in the 1940′s, during the Jewish people’s darkest hour: “We will fight the war (cooperate with Britain’s war effort) as if there were no White Paper (British policy cutting off the immigration of Jewish refugees to Eretz Yisrael). And we will fight the White Paper as if there were no war.” Ben-Gurion could keep two goals/ideas in his mind at the same time. We have to do that, too.
If there is going to be a civil war, I predict it will be within the pundits and chattering class, many of whom deliberately paint the opposing side as all-evil and one-dimensional. These people lack imagination, and perhaps experience on a day-to-day level with people whose views differ from their own, or maybe they will just do or say anything to advance their own agendas. I consider myself a proud member of the “Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy”, but work with and live near some ultra-liberal Obama supporters. I had a shouting match with a liberal neighbor recently, but we made our peace afterward. We babysit for each other and socialize regularly. Most Americans muddle along and I think respect the right of their fellow-citizens to their views and to vote as they see fit.
Our government is structured to make sweeping change difficult, and if a plurality of people don’t like the current office-holders we can vote them out–I feel so fortunate to be an American!
I hope you feel better soon; I enjoy your columns, they are original and thought-provoking, even though I am sure we have differing views on a number of issues.
The only music I heard played atthe Republican Convention (aside from “God Bless America”) was Chuck Berry singing “Johnny B. Goode,” hardly an inspired choice.
Get well, Phyllis. Your country needs you.
Civil war for sure. Especially if Obama looses. Then there will be race wars as well. We will be told he didn’t win because we are racists. Doesn’t matter he is unfit for command.
The trouble in America is we have a party that blames America for every problem in the world. I would have found the democratic position on Iraq perfect if it ever was lets do what it takes to win or leave. The fact that all they wanted to do was leave tells you all you need to know about their true positions. McCain said it best, country first, party second. This is how he has behaved his entire life. There isn’t a single democrat of note, with the exception of Lieberman, with the same moral compass.
I am not sure it will come to a second “civil war,” however the attacks and smear campaign against Governor Palin have been disgusting and over the line.
I am especially disappointed in the New York Times which has turned its paper into a sophisticated version of the National Inquierer.
I hope they continue to lose readers and they are forced to sell the paper soon.
Phyllis – a full and speedy recovery with special greetings from Israel. Just to set the record straight, the Republicans had great canned music. I only heard a little because as you know I was fulfilling my lifelong fantasy of being at a convention since Chicago ’68 but this time doing security as a volunteer. It was an extraordinary experience to witness such an event, to greet the people while scanning the ‘situation’ for security. As a retired Minnesota ice hockey mom who wears lipstick, I could relate. I saw the Anarchists riot and smash Macy’s windows but in the end law and order prevailed. You mapped out the camps well and you hit the nail on the head with “a page out of your book.” Women remain scary. You know we don’t even know Ahmadinejad’s mother’s name. He only talks about his father – if that doesn’t speak volumes, I don’t know what does. . .
Polly, don’t move to the UK! It’s not as dramatically exposed over here as over there – we don’t do big political conventions, but the same “culture” war is occurring here – and one of the obvious reasons for it, is the growth of big government: that is, with so many people working for the government, bureaucracies proliferate and expand, and suddnely they are the agenda. I myself am in the middle of a law case trying to restrict the state’s intrusion into my family life and have to take on a secret state-within-the-state to do so, as the family courts work in secrecy. The reason for the left-ward lurch of the the Democrats who are anyway the natural party of big government, is that all the folk who work for the government have to have something to do and are the types of bossy people who like interfering, knowing “best”, and so more and more of what ought to be private is deemed to be the government’s business. That’s the reason for the Civil war of which Phyllis speaks – and it’s taking place here. HELP!
Hey Nancy:
I always enjoy reading your posts. Your comment on the “Anarchist” riots in Minneapolis spurred this memory: I lived in the “Minniapple” from 1978-1987 and I remember the bratty little “leader” of that rat pack. Although I can’t think of his name, I will never forget his behavior. He could be counted on to show up, uninvited, at house parties, where he would eventually be found in a female tenant’s closet, SNIFFING HER SHOES! No lie! When he wasn’t doing this, or leading cadres of window- smashing street punks through the shopping district, he was famous for booking himself and his cohorts into local clubs, where they would assult the senses with an hour of noise (having only the vaguest notion of how to tune a guitar; sometimes they showed up weilding industrial tools!) before being banned from the premises, only to reappear on “New Band Night” a month later, under a different name. Sort of turned me against the concept of anarchy. Anyway, I’ll bet he’s still in charge. He’s the only thing I don’t miss about my time in Minnesota.
You might want to review http://www.plumbbobblog.com/?p=752. There, I argue that the attempt by Progressives to criminalize policy differences between themselves and Republicans, which they plan to carry out if Obama wins the election, will be the cause for civil war, if not immediately then eventually. I don’t think you and I disagree so very much; we’re just watching from different sides.
I’ve been saying for about 20 years that the US needs to partition into 2 nations. The Constitution we have does a fine job of allowing arbitration between different points of view, so long as those points of view share a common moral system. However, we have two, very different moral systems at work in the US, and have had since the 1960s. There can be no compromise between them, laws drawn up with both in mind are inherently schizophrenic, and they’re so very different that eventually war must break out. To prevent that, we need two separate nations.
Dear Dr. Chesler:
It is to be expected that women as well as men will debate Sarah Palin so it is puzzling to me that you characterize this routine facet of political campaigns as worthy of “a page from [your] book Women’s Inhumanity to Women.” Indeed, it would be condescending for the Democrats, whether male or female, to go easier on Palin because she’s a woman.
It is quite a stretch to characterize Palin’s politics as feminist. In her RNC speech, she disparaged Barack Obama’s experience as a community organizer. This is an ahistorical stance for an ostensible feminist, as both the civil rights movement and the second wave of the feminist movement were largely products of grass-roots community organizing.
With regard to Ahmadinejad, I think that Obama and Biden are far more sensible choices than McCain and Palin. Where McCain is bellicose and aggressive, Obama is prudent and deliberative. In addition, the president must take an oath of office to “preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.” How can McCain be trusted to fulfill this oath when he has voted with the Bush administration 95% of the time and has been silent about Bush/Cheney’s assault on civil liberties, lies about the war in Iraq, and overall contempt for the rule of law?
Like the War of Northern Agression, this new civil war divides families. My ex and her grown kids still have dreams of the socialist Utopia, and think America is a horrible racist country. She lives in the Canadian bush but Amy Goodman is her compass on all things social and political. I almost told them I was contemplating buying a rifle and hand gun if Obama wins–that’s how much he worries me, but I decided that would just reinforce their notion that I have truly gone round the bend.
Any Civil War caused by blue staters because they lost power in Washington will be a short one. Period. Good luck storming the castle, boys…what would more likely happen instead is guerilla action ala the 60s–but with a much less accepting public this time around.
The real danger comes from an insurrection caused by those of red state sympathies, with liberal control of the Federal government. This is not going to happen for a while yet–ten or twenty years, absent a major attack on the US not responded to. The more likely scenario in the next decade is blue state frustration boiling over. Nevertheless, in the case of a red state insurrection, it depends upon the circumstances, since the members of the military will have to make a choice on what to do. Unless the case is overridingly obvious that a new tyranny has been put in place, the military will follow orders from Washington. The long term effect though, would be that people would not enter the military after that, and the Republic, for all intents and purposes, would be on the road to eventual dissolution or some kind of major structural change.
There is a reason why the Republican party does not appeal to minorities. The rhetoric and ideals they spout has been heard before. In Germany and it caused WWII. Palin and McCain wants to end women’s choices that her daughter got to make. Burn books that the Christian Right deems inappropriate. Make anti-gay policies and make the Christian Right the only religion in America.
Just like the nazis they are using religion, and I stress using religion to infringe on the constitution. Hypocrisy is the only language they speak. I am a christian also and i don’t believe in abortions or homosexuality but i don’t want to FORCE people to believe what i believe. Does god force us to love him? I cringe when they say christian right because they are not very christian all. Jesus said there would be people swearing they were doing his works but when he comes back he would say to them ” I don’t know you”. Sounds like the republican party fits that description perfectly.
Are you hoping for one? Give me a break. We are a lot stronger and united than partisan hacks on both sides imagine. I work in a plant full of immigrants, blacks, country folks and urban working class, with all sorts of politics and culture, and no one is at anyone’s throats over the election. Shut off your computer and get out in the real world, instead of linking to some nut’s web column and using that as your weather vane.
Civil war, huh? I have to agree with Javelin, that is an utterly ridiculous hypothesis. Number one, we are really only at each other’s throats like this once every four years and it is cathartic. Next, the first amendment, IMHO, is what keeps us from a “civil war,” the second amendment helps too. We fight it out on the net, the blogs, in conversation, etc. No average American thinks about civil war, cept a few Hillbillies’ or a few crazed swamp Cajuns hiding out waitin fer the revenuers. (I am half Hillbilly/half crazed swamp Cajun so I am qualified to say it.) Americans are so much better than that, from city folk to rural folk and everything in-between. Start believing in your fellow Americans, they might surprise you.
The “politics of destruction,” and especially the threat to prosecute the other guys after coming to power (most recently by Biden) is reminiscent of the beginnings of the civil war between Pompey and Caesar, the civil war that turned the Roman Republic into the Roman Empire.
Javelin is right. I kind of liked things better before the internet when I was completely unaware of just how many stupid but opinionated people there were out there. People who talk about America heading towards theocracy = morons. People who think Obama is secretly a marxist = morons. The person who suggested Palin isn’t a feminist because in spite of being the embodiment of what feminism was about she doesn’t have the “right” beliefs = a moron. People talking about a literal war between red and blue states = morons. People equating republicans with nazis = morons. People who question Democrats’ love of country = morons. I wish I could say I find it entertaining but it is more disturbing than anything else.
Marion L. 7:45pm – “Indeed, it would be condescending for the Democrats, whether male or female, to go easier on Palin because she’s a woman.”
And yet, Obama has to cover his attacks on Palin by having Ms. Clinton, Ms. Sibelius and Ms. Napolitano do his dirty work. Condescention and cowardice, not exactly a combination I seek in a President.
Of interest:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/015/534rlysq.asp
I’m with Javelin…I believe this country is stronger than their differences. However, if you happen to be right? I’m not sure what that says about those who lean left. Those of us who lean right put up with a Democrat controlled congress for 40 years. We put up with Bill Clinton for 8 years. We never incited a civil war. If left leaners need or want to incite a civil war because the majority of Americans don’t agree with them, I think that says a lot about what they think. I think it says they are clearly less tolerant than they would have us believe. But hey, that’s just me.
It’s just so amazing when I read all of the one sided articles on this website or any other websites. There is no objectivity in news reporting anymore. It truly shows that this country IS divided and we actually do have two Americas: Red America and Blue America. Both Americas stand by their beliefs so strongly and neither ones will listen to reason but will maintain their beliefs till the end of time.
Well, I actually have one question for both Americas – is all the political fighting worth risking the oppression of our own country from moving forward economically? We are seeing this bipartisanship clearly in Washington and this is what’s oppressing our own country from getting things done. Should we see this in ALL of America? If another country were to look at us, it does look like The Civil War all over again, with the exception of human casualties.
In this election, just take away your party alliances, America. Be a better person, use your common judgment, look at all the facts and not be coerced by rumors or speculations, and just vote objectively for the right candidate. America has been plagued with this bipartisanship for way too long. We need to unite ONE America as a whole again.
An interesting related article. One excerpt:
You must understand printing lies about Republican candidates is OK. It’s called “vetting.” Printing the truth about liberals – that’s called “swift-boating.”
http://bostonherald.com/news/opinion/columnists/view.bg?articleid=1117419
Horatius, I agree wholeheartedly. If the dhimmi whiners don’t win and decide to engage in some sort of mass civil war of discontent, then they will surely be the losers. I can’t see too many elite, effete, metrosexuals taking on the vast middle America who cling to their guns and religion desperately. Poor babies will probably have to move or have nervous breakdowns. They’ve never gotten over the 2000 election. Talk about sore losers.
The editorial was right on the money. It’s too bad that opposing views and philosophies can’t disagree civily. That’s why Washington never gets anything accomplished. Both sides are too busy fighting each other and have no time to do the people’s work.
Mc Cain has a record of understanding this problem and is probably the only candidate that is strong enough to shame the politicians into behaving themselves.
Phyllis Chesler:
Your writing is obviously Republican. But you want to make it look kind of neutral and unbiased. No luck. You want to manipulate people into your beliefs. I would too. Unfortunately, you are misguided and hypocritical. Are you being paid to write? . . .
“pro-choice, pro-women, anti-censorship, people, as many of us are, do not insist that the religous zealots follow in our footsteps”
On the contrary – the far left wing of the feminist movement insists of providing abortion on demand to 13 year olds without parental notification. That compels parents to accept a massive intrusion into the family and childrearing in a matter that they believe concerns not only the well being of their daughter but also the life of the aborted child.
I do not seek to have Roe v. Wade overturned. But if we are to avoid outright civil war, my friends on the left had best understand just how deeply and broadly they have sought to take over every aspect of daily decision making, ironically in the name of ‘choice’ and ‘freedom’.
what are economic rights, and why do Women have specific economic rights?
Back here in the UK the libs are talking of Palin as a hick, moose skinning hockey Mom in the most outrageously snobbish manner imaginable. What an indictment of the core principles of socialism which shows how hollowed out they’ve become? These ghastly faux ‘women of the people’ live in a strange world of their own, brooking no dissent or debate. They are always shrilly right yet these self same women support the Blair Babe MP’s parachuted into safe seats who now cream off huge amounts in expenses for second homes. They are quite disgusting and our electorate has finally twigged. Obama, for me falls into this metropolitan elite with shady deals and associates colouring his past. He uses his blackness as a passage of right and rights, using trigger words which inflame both blacks and white apologists alike. He is as hollow as our lot and the US should beware these false prophets of ‘hope’. We had ours in the shape of Blair and look how far he’s descended into a gravy train of self enrichment? Heres my view.
Two articles dominated the online media yesterday. One, Palin and two, the so called ‘concrete ceiling’. As an aside, from what I remember from my youth and casual building labouring work is that all ceilings are, er concrete. Behind that pretty facade of polystyrene squares is the actual ceiling, also doh, the floor of the room above. I helped tamp down and pour quite a few of the buggers but no, there were no women slopping around, up to knees in wet concrete and tripping over the steel reinforcing in rain, hail or baking heat so maybe they are unaware of what lies beneath. And maybe that is the problem with these socially engineered women who talk such bull it makes me weep. What I find both amusing and irritating is the vile abuse these British liberal/marxist indoctrinated women who know not one jot about America are now hurling, pontificating from on high about ‘hokey’ Palin. So on the one hand they whine on and on about ‘workplace discrimination’ but when a woman actually is placed to reach the second most powerful job in the world, they pick and pick obsessively around the minutae of her personal life. These urban parasites find the fact that she can field dress a moose so amusing and nose wrinklingly outre. They are the new Antoinettes, disguised beneath a wafer thin veneer of socialism where entitlement trumps experience. Where membership of the chattering salons counts for more than the true reality of that diverse world out there which isn’t controlled by targets, ethnic and gender quotas and work flow charts. Where actually getting on with it is how it is, rather than organising a meeting about a meeting on a paper produced by some lofty think tank. For these women it’s all doctrinaire and ideological theory and gasp, rolling sleeves up and getting stuck in is such a strange experience they cannot understand the reality of the word, ‘work’. We live in strange times. God help our childre
I am a white woman who is eleven days younger than John McCain. My life is anchored in both of the worlds described here, in my case I have spent half my life in West Texas and the other half in New York City (Manhattan).
The author is perceiving a false dichotomy, and a dangerous one. McCain and I share the disappearing memory of the decades in the shadow of WWII and the Korean War. Those were dark times in which people who were young, as we were, lived with looming nuclear destruction. But then we saw the darkness lift, and the renewal of freedom. Our hope is not audacity; we want to tell you that hope works because we have seen it happen.
The dichotomy presented in this essay demeans us all. Americans are not dividing by type of culture — only by the same old human foible. Lincoln famously said: “You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.” In the next 2 months we are going to find out how many people — rednecks and urbanites — are fooled.
Jesus, lefties are ignorant.
The NAZIs (National SOCIALIST WORKERS Party) didn’t ‘use’ religion, they made one, the NAZI state, and Hitler was the god. You can ask any Rabbi, Priest, or Minister that was sent to the death camps.
And, who gets to decide what is a ‘minority’? Since when did the leftards become the sole and only arbiter of who is a minority? Try thinking outside your leftard, unexamined premises.
PS How’s that 60 year Free Tibet struggle going? Is Tibet free yet? Afghanistan is. Iraq is( twice as many American deaths in Chicago than Iraq. So much for Community Organizer, Obama, the Big O.)
Anyways, I’ll go with the rednecks. We fix, build, grow, own guns vs. the childless shrews and metro limpwrist lawyers of the left.
I pray to see the day when the paper temples of the left are burned hulks with documents and busted computers laying around.
That rage has grown. If McCain wins–I predict that the cultural wars will not only intensify but will turn into the beginnings of the next Civil War in America.-
HA.
Gun controllers carrying pepper spray and clubs.
2nd amendment administrators carrying automatic weapons and 9mm pistols.
I predict the new civil war will last 3 days.
To the person trying to pass himself/herself off as a Christian, posting as “truth.”
First, I don’t believe that you are a Christian, else you would have capitalized “God,” and “He,” when referring to Jesus, although it might have been simply an error on your part; it’s obvious from your grammar, punctuation, and use of capitalization that English is your second (or third) language. My guess is that you’re really a Morlock (a Muslim), attempting to fool us all into believing that you’re a Christian. (If you don’t know what a Morlock is, see H.G. Wells’ classic scifi novel THE TIME MACHINE. Wikipedia does a nice job on it. When there, do a search for “Morlocks.”)
Then, too, your statement
“Jesus said there would be people swearing they were doing his works but when he comes back he would say to them ” I don’t know you”. Sounds like the republican party fits that description perfectly.”
says that you’re a pretty sick individual.
Christians believe that only God can judge. You can’t speak for Him. Your condemning either Democrats or Republicans, just because of whatever ideology you might subscribe to, is not Christian, in the least. If I were you, I’d pray to God, asking Him to cleanse your soul of all the hatred that is there.
I was not going to vote in this election!
I thought the two favorite contenders
were not worthy and was going to protest
with a third party vote. And then there
was a change in the way the political machine worked! A fresh face came onto the scene; Governor Sarah Palin, she talks from
the heart, she entered politics for the
right reasons and serves her constituency.
What is not to like even if you do not agree
with her she walks like she talks and tries
to keep it simple. Unlike the two lawyers
on the other side, or her running mate.
Change starts with the first step and with
out her coming on board there would never
been the possibility for change.
About the Jihad, the Arabian Peninsula can
sustain 30 million people, there are over
300 million muslims there. Indonesia is
well over populated. They have to go out
from where they are!
Wars will be over survival of whole
cultures and how to sustain them! If
nothing changes we will go the unthinkable
routes. Insanity is doing the same thing
over and over again and expecting different
results.
Cheers, rfm
Truth, thy name is liar. Where did you get that info about choice and book burning? Huffpo? As a Christian you shouldn’t be there. I would rethink your judgements. Sounds like you are one of those Christians that buries the nickel in the backyard – is Jesus going to be happy you only have a nickel when he comes back?
This cultural/political polarization probably got its start in the 1990′s with Clinton’s impeachment, which was seen by many of those often portrayed as the liberal elite (aka well educated and informed) as being mostly malicious behavior by Republicans disingenuously using the Monica Lewinsky business as an excuse to attack Clinton in the hope of better positioning themselves in the 2000 elections. The 2000 elections, of course, were an embarrassment to this country, and really cemented the reputation of Republicans as bad guys who will do anything, anything at all, to get their people elected. The Iraq war made things even worse, with one side (the smart, well-informed one) seeing it as being totally bogus and the other side (a little fuzzy on facts and whom to believe) seeing it as preventing another 9/11. Then of course there was the 2004 election which gave birth to the term “swiftboating,” again furthering the reputation of Republicans as the bad guys.
If this wasn’t all bad enough, thanks to the decline of real journalism and the stature of the mainstream press, along with the rise of alternative media outlets like blog sites, we now have a Tower of Babel when it comes to “news” — no matter how extreme your political beliefs, there is a media outlet to cater to them. This has the consequence of obstructing even having a coherent argument on any topic since nobody can even agree on the basic facts, whether it involves global warming or Iraqi civilian casualties.
Politics have always been divisive and a source of argument, but nowadays it’s a ready to eat source of bitterness and hostility. I pop by conservative blog sites in cycles to try to understand the psychology involved, and while there is some genuine, inexcusable nastiness, for the most part, most conservative seem like Hank and Peggy Hill — meaning well, like traditional, simple values, are a little bit fuzzy on facts involving complicated matters but do try to vote for people that they believe will represent them and take care of business, and get very angry and defensive as being portrayed as mean gullible hicks and dummies.
A McCain/Palin victory will only continue if not magnify further this polarization.
Ms. Chesler is indisputably correct: the culture war is real. We are essentially in a pre-civil war state of society. Red/Blue political and cultural are simply irreconcilable. While it’s true that many more Americans are moderate in personal and political temperament than those who can be counted on the left or right, the fact remains that moderation inevitably fails in these circumstances, as indeed it failed in the long runup to the Civil War. I don’t mean to suggest that actual bloodletting is also inevitable. More probable is continued disintegration, the hollowing out of society from the middle, until …what? Many plausible scenarios follow, none good. The irony is that real fighting is almost preferable for its ability effect resolution and unification in most cases. In any case, so-called moderates and independents need to understand that this Red/Blue conflict is real, that it’s not going away on its own, and that they are part of it whether they like it or not.
It’s Locke versus Rousseau (Nietzsche and Marx). I’m doubt there is peace to be had in that mix and it’s the Marxist imposition of values that is to blame.
Personally, I find Rousseau, Nietzsche, and Marx to be extremely miserable and negative human beings. I cast my lot with Locke, the natural rights of man, and Red State America. Blue state America represents retrogression. The state is not supreme. They do not have the right to dictate how I live my life, no matter how much smarter and sophisticated the liberal narcissists imagine themselves to be. Masters of projection they are.
Civil War? I sure hope not. But if it comes to it, I’m, perfectly clear about which side I’m on – and I will be there with all the vigor of the Spirit of 1776. Government is not the boss of me.
Completely agree with the author.
First, I hope you get well soon. It’s never fun to be sick.
Second, I think viewing this divide as an uncrossable gulf between incompatible sides is the entirely incorrect way to approach it. How are we supposed to believe there’s room for compromise at all if we view those who disagree with us as an enemy worthy of death for their ideas?
What we need is a political climate that permits and encourages PRODUCTIVE disagreement, so we can come together on the things that affect everyone in the nation. In order for that to happen, we need some shifts in the media and the public perception of politics both at once.
I think both presidential candidates seem far more compromising than the previous administration, which is a good thing. But I hope we can trust that image, given that Bush also ran on a policy of less foreign intervention and no nation building. Either way, I think we’re in a position to do better.
I can imagine the cultural war getting worse, but not an actual civil war. Americans IMO are too resilient, tolerant and practical to do so–however heated the rhetoric.
Besides what is the particular wedge issue? In the Civil War, it was clear: slavery. Today, abortion? Roe v. Wade for all its faults is still a viable compromise. I know conservatives who oppose abortion but accept Roe on that account.
“Just like the nazis they are using religion, and I stress using religion to infringe on the constitution. Hypocrisy is the only language they speak. I am a christian also and i don’t believe in abortions or homosexuality but i don’t want to FORCE people to believe what i believe. Does god force us to love him? I cringe when they say christian right because they are not very christian all. Jesus said there would be people swearing they were doing his works but when he comes back he would say to them ” I don’t know you”. Sounds like the republican party fits that description perfectly.”
I would like to know exactly how you feel so “imposed upon” by Christianity, and exactly which laws are holding you back.
While abortion and gay marriage continue to be hot issues, unless you’re an expectant mother in a lesbian relationship whose having second thoughts I don’t really see much ACTUAL legislation that invokes Christianity and represses anything you might ACTUALLY do. Is it that you just don’t like Christians because you feel as though they are hypocrites? It’s fine if you do, but please don’t vote out of spite for a religion!
Are you that much of a hater to ignore all other issues?
Your comparison of Bush to Nazis is so historically inaccurate I doubt that you spend much time thinking about that though. Enjoy your “warm fuzzy” when you pull the “Democrat” lever.
this “second civil war” will not occur. too many people are working together for that to happpen. I agree with what javelin says: “Shut off your computer and get out in the real world, instead of linking to some nut’s web column and using that as your weather vane.” Real life is different. This is just a cultural change. Boomers are aging and their sons and grandsons/granddaughters are rejecting their views. I know at least in my case that i did it. Their utopian views are great stuff but it doesn’t work in real life. and most importantly it doesn’t pay the bills. hippies that messed this up in the 60′s are aging and dying. In McCain and Palin they see their worst fears realised. They may live to try to stop McCain but Palin is young. Eventually they’ll be too old to do anything about it. Plus there’s Bobby Jindal waiting…
They radical anti American left will try to push a race/class war they are already threatening to. I would not be a bit surprised to see rioting/arson/terrorism if the Obamaniacs do not get their way. Unfortunately for them they will soon discover that their behavior will not be tolerated.
Of course the MSM and Hollywood will keep up the crap that they have been shoveling at us for the last eight years. All that will come of that is that entities like CBS News and CNN will become such money losers that their accountants will pull the plug on them and a couple of the movie studios will go bust. Money talks and bullshit walks.
TO: Phyllis Chesler, et al.
RE: Another Perspective
There certainly is a lot of pressure building up. And as the frustration builds more and more people are venting theirs in physical manners.
Yes. There’s a possibility that the rancor could break out between:
• Blacks and non-Blacks
• Hispanics and non-Hispanics
• Reds and Blues
• Cats and Dogs
• Newts and Gingriches
However, all of those are philosophical contests. REAL contests break out over resources. And for the last 44 years there has been a growing divide at the state level over such. Ever since the SCOTUS Reynolds v. Simms (1964) decision which destroyed the legislative balance of power at the state level by making the state senates nothing more than an over-paid, glorified version of the state house of reps.
Ever since then the rural areas have little if any legislative authority to prevent their resources from being slowly stripped away by the metropolitan areas.
Here in Colorado, the Denver metroplex holds 17 of the 35 seats in the state senate. This impacts where funds go and what judges are appointed, not to forget where the limited supply of water goes.
Sooner rather than later, there’s going to be REAL trouble.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
A woman’s “choice” begins with her choice to say no to the pressures from a man who is only out for his own selfish interests and from a culture that now tells her that her worth depends on her “sexiness.” This is the flaw in your otherwise good argument, Phyllis. Many women took your and your fellow feminists’ advice regarding the “choice” of abortion in order to advance their careers, and have lived to regret it. They are now Palin supporters.
And on your point about the “civil war” . . . let it come! Let it come if it is a war of ideas. Conflict, in the contest of ideas and values, is the hallmark of democracy.
TO: Mary Grabar
RE: Conflict? Bring It On!
As for the physical form. Nasty, but I think I’m well prepared for any such. I’d rather it not happen….but….after 27 years in the infantry?
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Qui desiderat pacem -- praeparat bellum. -- Vegetius]
If John McCain and Sarah Palin are to win, it will be because all this talk about polar opposites isn’t true. They are shooting for the big middle of this country, and they have to get votes from people who disagree with them on some issues. This is true with respect to a number of points raised in this post, but I will address only one, on an issued I’ve followed for quite some time.
“In my opinion, President Amadinejad might indeed have formidable opponents in Senator McCain and Governor Palin who understand that we are at war and that it is one we must win. Unlike Senator Obama, I bet they do not view the terrorists as “perverting the Islamic faith” (Obama said this in his interview with O’Reilly) but rather, as expressing it all too well. On this very point, (whether there is a “good” and “peaceful” Islam or not), our Republic will either stand or fall.”
The difference between Sens. Obama and McCain is not that one views the terrorists as perverting the Islamic faith and the other views them as expressing it all to well. The differences are in 1) how the two Senators have publicly cast their stance against state sponsors of terrorism and 2) how they have said they will deal with Iraq, assuming they will get elected.
Barack Obama has been projecting a conciliatory stance toward rogue states, emphasizing his willingness to “negotiate.” When pressed, he has stated that he would not take any military option off the table. John McCain has expressed his distrust of rogue states, and said that he will stand firm, and would try everything, including all forms of diplomacy, short of war, but war remains an option. In the event, and if history is any indicator, each man in office is likely to act more like other American presidents than a partisan member of the Senate. Both the responsibility and the options come with the office.
I fully expect the world’s bad actors to challenge the next US president, just as they have done with every other US president in recent memory. In my opinion, John McCain is more likely to be able to pull off a diplomatic victory because of his tougher stance, and his credibility in voicing it.
Barack Obama has paid attention to some seriously bad advice from people who have engineered some recent, spectacular foreign policy failures. He appears to have given the world’s tin-plated dictators the impression that he is a wuss. That’s why they want to see him elected. They think they will be able to do anything they wish with Obama as president. My best guess is that they will insist on overreaching, and force Obama’s hand, if he is elected, and we will have military action.
Because Obama is more likely to get backed into a shooting war, I favor McCain.
This analysis does not turn on any kind of evaluation of the “truth” about Islam. The truth about Islam at this moment is that the terrorists argue that they are the embodiment of true Islam, and the scholars of Islam have declared that the terrorist writings are outside the ambit of true Islamic teaching. The scholars have even taken the step of pointing out that Islam includes the most-loved teachings of Jesus Christ, which explicitly refer to earlier, Jewish writings. Meanwhile, in Iraq, the terrorists are regarded as perverted evildoers, due to their barbarous actions. And, those perverts continue to be able to recruit gullible young people from other countries on the basis that they are building a world more pleasing to God. None of this has much to do with the options an American President might have to consider shortly after assuming office.
Yes, there is a civil war coming and it will be unlike anything people can imagine. It will be a revolt against the status quo, against the politicians, against police state government, against higher taxes for the lower income American, against putting foreign countries before America.
It will not be a war of words or about values and ideals but about what is right and what is wrong, something our elected officials seem to have forgotten. There will also be food wars, water wars, gas wars, territorial wars, wars between races, between ethnic factions, between religions and there will be a war to restore our personal freedoms.
let it come, my guns are loaded.
Amnesty for illegal immigrants
Giving constitutional rights to terrorism suspects
Global Warming hysteria
Waving the white flag in Iraq
Snuffing out talk radio by resurrecting the Fairness Doctrine
Believing 9/11 was an “inside job”
Imposing same-sex marriage by activist judges
That is what you want?
I’m with MG and Javelin. Shut down your computer and get out into the real world. The so-called “division” is mostly the artifact of the chattering classes and pundits who have lost all sense of proportion.
We all hope you get well soon Phyllis. We also hope that, in the future, you will refrain from writing while delirious with infection and fever. Your assessment of the divides between, ‘red’ and ‘blue’, is just more of the same old blah blah spouted by editorialists who have run out of ideas that might sell copy. Take a break Phyllis, get better, think about the subject you are going to write about, then write.
Not really.
And McCain doesn’t? Please provide evidence.
The devil in the details is defining “equal work”. This vacuous phrase is meaningless.
Yes.
Baloney. Pure, 100% unadulterated B.S. The direct and inevitable consequence of their drilling bans is the huge amount of oil imported today. Platitudes about conservation have done nothing practical to help. The next effect of Democrat policy has been to massively boost oil imports from countries with vile governments.
It’s not even true that the environment has benefited from this. The net effect is that they’d displaced oil production from a country where the production would have been done under strict regulation to countries where there are no environmental restrictions at all. Next time you think that these drilling bans are for the polar bears or whatever, think about the black skies, day and night, in Nigeria. That’s what the Democrats have wrought.
I agree that there should not be the weaving of personal religious beliefs into political life. And I agree we must guard against it.
But what when the Left and the radical Islamic forces unite against us?
And what if Obama said as much?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zQK_EhDhZQ
Nahanni,
rubbish, you base your paranoidd view based on what, a column by a Nation of Islam spokewoma? And if there is a class and race war, don’t you think that the GOP is feeding off of that too?
The democrats seem to be moving ever farther to the left and republicans to the right.
What horse-puckey. Democrats left, yes – the evidence is their abandonment of Joe Lieberman. Republicans right, no – the evidence is in their stupid emulation of the bloated Federal governments invented and increased since FDR. Republicans right, no – their respect for free speech gags an administration which has abjectly failed to defend itself against eight years of savagely biased scurillity from leftwing media led by the NYT. Republicans right, no – their treatment of prisoners of war is no worse than Clinton’s ‘extraordinary renditions’, nor FDR’s summary executions. Only the leftwing MSM have howled and roared a typhoon against the administration, whose Democratic predecessors got a pass when some of the media still was on the American side.
Gary Ogletree:
“Like the War of Northern Agression,”
Code words of a Southern slavery traitor apologist!
Until after carelessly dropping Christianity your religion has become environmentalism, or anti-obesity or anti-smoking or anti-SUV crusading. Then your religion trumps liberties we all shared not so long ago – what consenting adults may do with the property they own, what to smoke, what to drive, how much to eat. The list of recent proscriptive legislation against the behavior of ‘others’ is endless – the list of newly created liberties is microscopically focused on whose gonads may engage each other, and whom to marry.
There’s been a low level civil war (albeit, no shooting so far) going on for quite some time. The radical socialists that control the Democratic party are, for the most part, the radicals of the 1960′s. They are getting old and running out of time to create their long-sought socialist utopia. They will do and try anything. They hate this country and that is why they will eventually lose.
Polly:
I feel I’m caught between the two Americas, and if there were a Civil War, I wouldn’t know which side to take. et al ……..
There’s always plan C: move to th UK.
I agree with most of what you say but if you think the UK is a social utopia think twice. Our Muslims are a completely unintegrated group and refuse to do so. They are anti British yet stay for our welfare and free or subsidised housing whilst acting in the most provocative ways possible, screaming for Shariah at every chance. Our Melanie Phillips has the handle on them and I’d recommend her blog. For a bit more eludidation as to how far we’ve sunk after 11 years of a Labour gov read my earlier comment of the liberals view on Palin and weep.
TO: colagirl
RE: A Sugar High?
Yeah. We saw that the week before last at the Denver convention. Not to mention bumping into it on the streets in my own community; people being arrested for taking political signs they disagree with out of other peoples’ yards.
Better switch to a nice herbal tea, dearie.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Beware the Coca-Cola Syndrome! Coming to a keyboard near you soon.]
The evidence is even more straightforward than that. The fact that McCain pw3ned Huckabee so decisively forever gives lie to the claim that the Republicans are in the pockets of the evangelicals.
Agree that the triumph of Obama over Clinton was a proxy triumph of George Soros over the last remaining adults in the Democrat party. They really have become a very small tent. But the situation in the Republican party is more more fluid and ambiguous, and it should be clear that no one interest dominates. McCain seems to be in the process of affixing a new rudder to a party that has been missing one since Reagan left office.
These ‘culture wars’ have been going on since the 60′s. The fact that they are heating up again can largely be attributed to the anger at losses sustained by the left. They lust for revenge and will accept nothing less. In the last 40 years their international allies have lost – big time. If the left loses, they will take to the streets as they did in the 60′s. If the right loses, they will feel the full force of the left’s revenge and begin a powerful backlash. Either way, the conflict will intensify. Having tried the ways of metro man for several years, I’ve found it doesn’t work. Count me in with the folks with the guns.
I don’t see it coming to a civil war any time soon, but if it did it would effectively be the Charlton Hestons and the John Waynes against the Michael Moores, the Bill Mahers and the Barack Obamas.
A very short war it would be.
It’s really Urban vs Rural, Red and Blue are just labels that the Media types need. Most media people are pretty, but not very smart. Some are clever, some are not. Most of them have problems conceptualizing, so they need the help of symbols to grasp abstract concepts.
The Rural/Urban split started shortly after the first walled cities were built, about 9000 years ago.
Those walls were built to keep people out. The people being kept out occasionally tear down the walls. The people inside the walls call it civil war. Those outside call it urban renewal.
It is inevitable that 21st Century America add it’s chapter to this long sad history. On a positive note, it won’t be a very bloody civil war.
Some kid with more hormones then IQ claimed here (PJM) that the bi-Coastals (blue staters, Urbanites, whatever) outnumber the fly-overs (red staters, Rustics, etc.).
Not wanting to prove him wrong I let it slide, nor did I point out that his food is grown out here in the red states, so those numbers could change pretty quick. No major urban area has more then a weeks worth of food on hand. Blow some bridges, set up some roadblocks and the civil war will be over in about 10 days. Very few American know what it is like to go 3 days without food. When they find out, it will cause a serious attitude adjustment on the part of those going hungry. I doubt that it will get to the point where they are eating each other, but you need to keep an eye on your pets.
After all, it wouldn’t do for your neighbor to eat them first.
“An idealist is one who, on noticing that a rose smells better than a cabbage, concludes that it will also make better soup.”
H. L. Mencken
US editor (1880 – 1956)
The simple solution to the Civil war is to simply return the Fed to its constitutional limits:
“the way to have good and safe government, is not to trust it all to one, but to divide it among the many, distributing to every one exactly the functions he is competent to. Let the national government be entrusted with the defense of the nation, and its foreign and federal relations; the State governments with the civil rights, laws, police, and administration of what concerns the State generally; the counties with the local concerns of the counties, and each ward direct the interests within itself. It is by dividing and subdividing these republics from the great national one down through all its subordinations, until it ends in the administration of every man’s farm by himself; by placing under every one what his own eye may superintend, that all will be done for the best. What has destroyed liberty and the rights of man in every government which has ever existed under the sun? The generalizing and concentrating all cares and power into one body, no matter whether of the autocrats of Russia or France, or of the aristocrats of a Venetian senate.”
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Joseph C. Cabell, Monticello, Feb 2, 1816
If We stop fighting at the national level, THe Repbublic will stand. THe Blue States an live under thier blue state laws, and the Red states under theirs. The Fed has no businss providing welfare, medicaid or social security. (just rad the 9th and 10th amendments) Let the States decide how to “care” for those in the state, how to regulate abortion, etc. If there is a Civil War it will be because the “tolerant” left won’t tolerate others making their own decisions about how to live.
Marion L: — “With regard to Ahmadinejad, I think that Obama and Biden are far more sensible choices than McCain and Palin. Where McCain is bellicose and aggressive, Obama is prudent and deliberative.”
Has it ever occurred to you that McCain’s attitude is a conclusion of prudent deliberation?
Ladies and gentlemen: the howling stupidity of the average American votist is leading you to hell.
Chesler is right, but only largely by accident.
All politics in this country now is rehearsal for civil war, and she barely scratched the surface of the subject.
I would not expect a civil war. I do think that if McCain wins there will be many blacks that feel increasingly disenfranchised and become more radical and strident than ever.
And I believe the radical jihadist will certainly recognize this and attempt to exploit it to their advantage. And that could get very, very ugly.
I predict that if McCain wins the first thing the Dems will do is scream faud, second they will scream racism and third there will be riots by Blacks (not necessarily in this order). The msm will carry the Dem’s water for them so unplug your TVs and prepare for the blasts.
Also, I really think this is beneath you:
That’s rumor-mongering, pure and simple. Either it is or isn’t true, but unless there’s evidence, it has no place in a serious piece.
What’s next, asking McCain when he stopped beating his wife?
All posters are using the American Civit War as a metaphor. I think that the proper historical analogies are 1) the English Civil War in the early 17th Century and the NAZI revolution that arose due to the inability of the SPD-Center coalition to work out a stable economic policy with the agricultural and industrial powers in Weimar Germany.
Yes, the Democrats have put the woman in her place. She in now thumping for the two MEN to get elected!!!! Excuse me, what party is anti-feminist? The Republicans have been waiting for a woman willing to make the sacrifice. Condoleezza Rice wasn’t willing. Sarah Palin is!
Civil war? Pfft. A schism antagonized, sure. Protests and marches, okay. No one’s going to take up arms. That language is just inflammatory.
The right remains where it always has been. The left hasn’t moved further left, it’s just bullied and hijacked the Democrat party.
David Wynn: “How are we supposed to believe there’s room for compromise at all…”
There isn’t. Try to understand: the principle political confrontation of our times is collectivism vs. individualism. I’ve pointed out before that there are all kinds of distortions on the surface of the thing (e.e. — instinctive individualists joining pressure-groups like NRA), but that’s the root of it.
I, for one, and not interested in “compromise” of my rights. A rational analysis of the concept of “compromise” would tell you why. The collectivists have nothing worth trading for my rights. There is no basis on which to deal them at all.
“Compromise” is what got us into these straits in the first place. That’s the last thing we need.
I agree there will be terrible times for our country ahead no matter who wins, and being a woman a black woman at that I am afraid anything my daughters and I want or need will be the least important of a McCain-Palin win. I don’t trust another human being to tell me how to live and what i may or may not do in my own life, I believe The repubs. will win and after 4 more years of the same things maybe not as bad or maybe, but will you see then that change has to happen? And God forbid something happen to McCain because then this woman will set back womens causes 500 yrs. You think the “good ole boys” will nominate a woman ever again after she screws it all up? Not hardly.
The Culture War has been ongoing since the 60′s when the left hijacked our culture. They captured the media and academia to use as their agents. Conservatives have been frozen out in both places and the marketplace of free ideas has been withering.
Look no farther than nihilistic socialized Europe, they are unlikely unless they regain their conservative western cultural roots to fight off encroaching militant Islam. The hideous demographics there are the result of the decades of radical feminist assaults on the family and pro-life morality. Add socialism’s redistribution of incomes which keep most young Europeans in small apartments and Nanny State micromanagement which punishes deviant behavior and the demographic result is toxic.
Each election cycle in this country has more dumbed down voters thanks to the MSM and our rotten schools where economics, civics and critical thinking skills aren’t taught. I put the blame squarely on the left for that. They control both the media and the schools. The next question, has it been deliberate?
“Each has a radically different world view; each inhabits a radically different culture.”
Unless you’re talking about the Amish, commune-living hippies, or polygamist sects in the southwest, you have no idea what you are talking about.
I’m writing this comment on Sunday, when millions of Americans across this great country, from coast to coast, border to border are either watching football or going to church, and in many cases doing both.
“Completely separate culture” my knee.
If there is a blue vs. red, it will be awfully lopsided. We’ll have our handguns, hunting bows and “moose” rifles. They’ll have their Che t-shirts and molotov cocktails.
There won’t be much of a fight, because “war is never the answer” to them and they’ll appease us.
They’ll be too busy attending their Franklin Street Fairs or crying in the forest as they mourn for the old growth.
Their drums of war will be nothing but homeless men and bearded college kids having a drum circle, pounding on plastic buckets from last months local lard delivery.
The “presumably” anti-feminist Republicans?
Exactly what is that supposed to mean?
Liberals have sold to the public specific issues they claim belong to them & them alone.
The attacks on Sarah Palin demonstrate for all to see the complete hypocrisy of such claims of moral high ground.
Subtle words & phrases designed to create doubt, are being employed by those who were totally skunked by the Palin selection. They must discredit her because she stands for everything they oppose. And worse, she is the woman who has proven “women can have it all & still be happily married with children. Even special needs children. She did not have to abort. She did not have to let the government step in to provide for her, to dictate her life to her. She & her husband, did it on their own. They discredit the “government has to help” (read: run your life), positions that Americans have been sold by liberals, who want socialism & to be a part of the elite to run it, in this nation. Like we need to have a system like those of Hugo Chavez & Fidel Castro that are held up as shining examples! No free press, nationalized industries & financial systems, no private property rights, no religious freedom if the religious oppose any policies of the government.
The subtle words used to hide intentions and actions have seduced some Americans. Others have uncovered the mass propaganda indoctrination methods being employed.
I don’t think it will come to a “civil war” over issues like abortion and gay rights. Any court decision overturning Roe v. Wade would most likely punt things back to the state level. Then, the worst situation would be a Balkanization of Red vs. Blue states. People living in Blue states get to keep their abortion and other “rights”, provided they don’t infringe on the rights of others (one of the big conundrums of this issue).
The big challenge is if Obama is elected and perceived to be weak (because he IS weak), proceeds to dismantle the military, appeases evil regimes and sends the wrong signals to the world about American responses to aggression. This would no doubt end the way these things always do — in a very, very bad war and probable domestic terror attacks, rendering our cities unlivable — a good reason to relocate to a self sufficient place in the country before all hell breaks loose.
Logdon, when we fish our pogrom on lieberals we will come free Europe again. This time from leftist malignancy.
Lieberals buried in great masses. Truth and honor returns fastest.
Heh… “fish”= finnish. :^)
Some may feel the South waged the Civil War only over slavery. However, if one actually studies history, they will find that “states rights” was behind a significant portion of those who waged that war.
Slavery became the easy issue to use for the war, and because “the North won,” the winner got to write the history.
The states rights issues of those days, remain with us today as some try to push us into a federal government that controls virtually all aspects of our lives.
Do we want socialism or do we want our constitutional republic? Its one or the other. For the most part, the two are diametrically opposed politically & functionally. Where they do meet, social services must be kept in check or they will naturally grow out of proportion.
“If collecting more taxes from the rich is the real plan, & acceptable to Democrats …
then why haven’t “the rich” just signed the checks & sent the money into the treasury all these years? Its not like the treasury would have refused the money!”
Why have the rich been using all of those tax shelters & off shore accounts? Why have the rich created those “foundations & endowments” that enable them to pass on
“their” fortunes to their children, with few, if any, taxes due?
These very facts make the “I will only tax the rich & companies” promise, as empty as any political promise we have ever heard.
Add to this the plans to “control” the Internet, recreate the so-called “Fairness Doctrine” & shut up (conservative) talk radio, & to legislate union organizing through the “card check” system, (so employees can face the intimidation tactics of old that caused many to vote yes for representation rather than face death, pain, or job loss if they refused!), and what we have folks, is Fidel Castro style and Hugo Chavez style government.Its called socialism.
And, it has nothing to do with freedom or equality. It has to do with an elite gaining control over every aspect of human life!
I hear the people who believe that only extremists, politicians, and the elite punditry are deeply divided and ready to fight. Trouble is, you’re talking about our political and cultural leaders. It’s like saying only extremists wanted to fight over over slavery or states’ rights before the Civil War. Possibly true – but the laws, policies, and judicial decisions foisted on us by extremist legislators and judges, and the fighting rhetoric spouted by the extremist media, eventually led many people to conclude that war was the only choice. Moderates and compromisers – those who believed the American people could avoid war if we would just worked together – simply got used by the extremists to strengthen their positions.
Make no mistake: Today’s extremists believe they are right, they are playing to win, and they will drag the country into war rather than give an inch to the opposition. If we let them, they will eventually legislate and judge us into a position of irreconcilable conflict.
“What do you think will happen after one side wins and the other side loses? Will blue or red states want to secede from the union? Will there be more violent and ugly confrontations upon encountering ideas and practices with which one disagrees?”
I live in St. Paul, and I have been thinking this very thing. We had a little war here a few days ago, one that, but not for some great police work, could have turned out very badly. There is a lot of hate out there, and it is growing. And the Civil War metaphor, it seems to me, works quite well in many respects. More & more I am coming to regard liberals as Confederates, and conservatives as abolitionist Yankees. Now I know how screwy that sounds on the surface — Dixie being the GOP’s present-day heartland and all — but stick with me. My thinking is centered on the abortion debate. Most strong conservatives regard Roe v. Wade as the modern-day equivalent of Dred Scott. At the expense of burning a whole lot of biscuits, I premise my argument on the defensible contention that both rulings sought to legitimize — to “mainstream” — an exceptionally unsavory human/societal practice; both rulings defined the law of the land; and both divided the nation more viscerally (by far) than any other issue of their day. Slavery was ugly. Abortion is ugly. Slavery was a dehumanizing self-serving excuse, and so is abortion, when applied outside of those RARE exceptions of protecting the life/heath of mothers, and of serving to relieve the pain (arguably) of victims of rape or incest. Hmmm. I’m getting long winded here. So let me just throw a few notions out there. 1) Radical leftists today are the equivalent of the pro-slavery firebrands of antebellum times: you don’t see conservatives engaging in the sort of personal intimidation that is commonplace among michaelmoore/code-pink Democrats. Like the firebrands of old, today’s lefty diehards are just itching for a good fight. And like the abolitionists of old, conservatives are growing increasingly interested in giving them exactly what they want. I know the thought occurred to me many times last week as to how *satisfying* it would be to inflict upon the masked thugs and code-pink harpies the sort of pain that they wanted SO BAD to freely rain down upon St. Paul’s honored GOP guests. And you know (yes, this is probably crazy talk), just as the Civil War was a fight that this nation had almost no chance of avoiding, maybe we should just, you know, get down to it. Maybe we need to just bleed off the bad blood that’s been building up since Vietnam. Ya think? How about you, Cindy Sheehan, should we just get it over with? Anyway… I’m rambling. These thoughts of Civil War, American style, have been rolling around half-formed in my mind as well. But I know one thing: I despise the sanctimonious, foul-mouthed, crybaby Left every bit as much as they despise me and the old-time values that I try to live my life by. And BTW I am VERY pro 2nd amendment. God, I can’t believe I wrote this on a Sunday. I need to pray more.
Oh, good grief! We are as much one culture as any country with as many polyglot waves of immigration can be. And the notion of, say, the folks over at Kos or Huffington Post taking up arms against a McCain Presidency is ludicrous.
Nobody seems to read history any more, even the history of your own political views, and nobody seems to understand that true political violence in this country has actually decreased tremendously over the last half century.
There are still people in this country who have been alive long enough to remember cross burnings, lynchings, church bombings, and casual political murders under the cover of darkness. We are even still attempting to bring the doddering perpetrators of them, whom no jury would convict when I was a boy, to some sort of justice.
I also remember Police Chief Bull Connor, his fire hoses and his attack dogs [real dogs and not the metaphorical ones we attach as labels to politicans who couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag]. I saw them in Life Magazine as it happened. I don’t suppose anyone else here has ever heard of them.
My father often told me of watching newsreel footage of UAW President Walter Reuther being jumped and beaten to a pulp on the River Rouge Bridge by Ford Motor Company goons or, as they were known on the other side of the bridge, “security guards”. Years later I ran across the still pictures taken of it in a back issue of Life magazine.
And I don’t suppose anyone here has ever heard of the Molly McGuires, the strikebreaking of the Pinkerton Detective Agency, the routine use of National Guard troop against striking workers, or the labor violence on the San Francisco docks and in the Western copper mines.
Nor of the delightful political tactics of tar-and-feathering stretching from the Stamp Act in in the eighteenth century to well into the twentieth. Nor the New York waterfront thugs under the control of Jewish gangsters like Meyer Lansky and Buggsy Seigel that would routinely break up meetings of the German-American Bund.
I could go on and on, but what’s the point.
There is a mild cultural divide in our red/blue political map, however. It goes all the way back to before the American Revolution and is roughly split by the Mason-Dixon line, the old National Road which we now call I-70, [anybody ever hear of those?] the Sierra Nevada, and the Coast Ranges.
The northern part of it is the settlement route from New England to the Oregon Territory, and the rough distribution of Irish, Dutch, and Scandanavian immigrants from the nineteenth century, as well as Jewish and Italian ones from the twentieth. The western part is the Oregon settlement and the stampede from New England and the old Middle Colonies around the Cape Horn to the California gold fields.
The southern part of it is the Confederacy and the diaspora of disaffected Southern soldiers into the Rocky Mountain west, as well as the center of the movement of German immigration down the Ohio River to places like Cincinatti, Saint Louis, and the eastern part of Texas.
There’s a Civil War in it, but it’s the old one, and we are still fighting the ghosts of its battles even yet.
When I find I no longer root for the guy who is my countryman but for the guy who is of my race, gender, or culture, I know the gig is up in this country. And about a year ago, it finally happened. The liberals’ identity politics has won. They got what they wanted. I’m a white male first, an American second.
But because I’m a white male, they’ve chosen to exclude me, vilify me, and take what little money I have for their programs that promote this heinousness.
My only chance to live a life away from those who hate me for what I am is to split this country up. I can’t change the way these sick people think, but at least I can do my best to get away from them. Perhaps then I can regain my love of country first and the ideals that it promotes.
Let them have their world; maybe they can make it work for them. But right now, they’re keeping me from the world I want to live in.
We don’t need a civil war, but a another velvet revolution would do nicely.
Stop telling people how to lead their lives. Be a libertarian.
“I wonder why the guys are so uncomfortable taking a woman on publicly?” They are afraid to be called (a so called) sexist. Only feminists can be sexist in their hypocritical agenda. Furthermore, women cannot handle criticism-but have the special right to criticize. & of course, since that is true, their vote is important to these weak men. Since speaking good logic is not important because it may hurt many feelings-to speak nonsense will accomodate the feminist agenda & give them their vote. All being said, there are still good strong women who haven’t fallen for the modern hoax.
“We need to unite one America as a whole again.” I do not believe that is possible unless America is attacked from an outsider. With-in the people of America, it is pretty clear one is Red the other Blue. Too many progressive changes have been made at the expense of a once united nation made-up of conservatives based on God. The progressives aren’t satisfied with what they’ve accomplished & want more. The still remaining conservatives aren’t willing to give-up more since the environment surrounding them contradicts their strong beliefs. It is not hard to understand it because the moral break-down of America is quite clear. There is no question a division is pretty obvious theologically-to geographically divide the nation of America is looking to be the only solution. A civil war always starts off psychologically. That is what’s happening now-a psychological war. Ultimately it may lead to a military civil war if a compromise is not granted. I do not see that happening because the progressive agenda is too aggressive, they will not give-up until they totally get it their way-to impose their agenda on everyone agains’t their will. When push comes to shove ultimately may lead to a bloody civil war. It is not beyond America for it to happen. They have had one in the past-they are having a psycholigical war in the present. What makes you think a military civil war is not inevitable?
Logdon: you are dead on-good comments. & yes, “God help our children.”
Javelino: I threw that Southern name for the Civil War in there for humor and to possibly provoke the humorless. Seems to have worked. In fact, it was a war of northern aggression, unconstitutional, but completely necessary to end the horror of slavery. This is one case where it can truly be said that they (my cotton aristocracy ancestors [staunch Democrats]) brought it on themselves. They knew it was a total violation of the spirit of the Declaration, a document they claimed to hold sacred and then used to justify secession. Southerners will root for Jackson’s “foot cavalry” because, hey, that’s our kin; then we’ll root for the 20th Maine because they fought for the right cause after all and first and foremost we are Americans. Lecture over and Maestro Gary cautions you to hold back with the assumptions and avoid exposing yourself as an idiot.
Absolutely. This is what I was thinking this morning. The left has had years of practice of smearing and destroying conservatives – Bork, Clarence Thomas, Newt Gingrich, Ken Starr, even G.W. Bush, who has only some conservative features. Nevertheless, the idea that the best way to respond politically is to destroy the conservative has become the primary method that the left deals with their opponents.
They’re doing it to Sarah Palin, too.
When they lose this election, though, that urge to destroy will finally expand to include most of the American people. Those who voted for McCain and Palin will be painted as racist, corrupt, and venal. The same kind of smears we see against Palin and Thomas will be expanded to include everyone who isn’t on the left. We have a hint of this with the Rev. Wright screaming “God damn America” and the friendship of Bill Ayers and Barack Obama.
You become what you do and say. The left has been destroying people as individuals for a long time. Now that they’ve had their practice, they’ll strike out at the rest of us when they lose.
In fact, they will probably strike out if they win, too, although that would be more subtle, in the form of regulations and laws and taxes. If they lose, though, expect to see the same kind of mayhem we saw in the last part of the 19th century, with assassinations, murder, bombing, and destruction – also done by people on the left.
There are storm clouds on the horizon, and they’ve been there for some time. The only positive thing is that a battle between the cities and the people in the countryside is often won by the people in the countryside. The bad news is that the left is a vicious and resolute adversary, willing to kill millions for political advantage. Whether or not we have that kind of living hell is something no one can predict.
I keep hoping that the coming battle will be like the Glorious Revolution in the 1660s of England – a war between competing elites. We have Limbaugh – they have Keith Olberman. They have Obama – we have Palin. The end result of the Glorious Revolution was a flowering of individual rights and representative government as seen in the formation of the United States. (Of course, the Irish see it a little differently.)
We’ll see. I hope that everything I’ve written here is wrong.
Ms Chesler,
You are feverishly exaggerating.
I agree with Javelin and Critical Thinker.
The notion of a new Civil War is ridiculous. The differences between the “sides” are rooted in reality, but that reality harbors all kinds of intersections with the “other side,” overlaps, and grey areas. Differences are rhetorically hyperbolized by partisan politics, especially towards the end of an election cycle, on both sides, as well as commentators’ discomfort with complexity and the push to choose a “side.”
I’m a pro-choice conservative and First Amendment and Second Amendment “fundamentalist.” To many, that’s an oxymoron, an impossibility.
I like Palin and what she represents, overall, but any hint that she and McCain are going to try and impose their religious beliefs–about how life came about (“creationism”) and when the soul of a human being starts–on people like me, who don’t share their theology, will give me pause and reconsider my support for them.
Any attempt to criminalize abortions, in a society in which men still don’t take full responsibility for their–how shall I put it politely–engendering capabilities when they have sex??–and the burden, by biological fiat, is a woman’s to bear, I’ll fight them. Tooth and nail, just as I’ll fight any totalitarian ideology.
There will not be a civil war. Any moves in that direction, regardless of which party controls the executive branch, will be met with swift and devastating supression. Remember Waco? The military, the police, the national guard, the entire apparatus of the state governments and the federal government would be brought to bear against any movement, from either the right or the left, that moved towards a real civil war. The hypothesis that the current polarization of the national scene are somehow equivalent to a real war is patently ridiculous. Both Democrats and Republicans believe in the status quo. They may want to manipulate it slightly differently to serve their respective constituencies better, and have certain stylistic differences in the way the present themselves, but at core they are siblings that need each other. The system works in such a fashion that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, with the caveat that the squeaky wheel needs to be part of a constituency that can accomplish something politically. If the status quo really becomes completely unpalatable politically, there are mechanisms for changing the fundamental rules of the game, i.e., the constitution. We haven’t heard any talk of this so the idea that civil war is coming is just a sensational and pathetic attempt to play on the emotions of a political season.
Firstly, the biggest divide in America is between the people who work and the people who live of the government handouts. These two groups see the government in completely different ways. For the productive members of society, American government is mostly a dead weight on their backs, while for the moochers it is the only source of life. The abortion issue, gays and the like are important to many – but I doubt they make that much of a difference.
The typical noncense about women’s rights – equal pay for example, is nothing more than an effort to divide the productive members of society, and turn some of them into the recipients of the handouts. It is absurd to presume that any business would pay a man 20-30% higher salary just because he is a man, while they could hire a woman and pay her less. Nevertheless, this argument is often made by the people who are either illiterate or dishonest.
Lastly, if there is indeed a civil war, then the R’s will defeat with D’s in a landslide.
Great point about Obama being most likely to be backed into a shooting war, Valerie. I’ll take the one who has actually SEEN war, LOOKED into the face of EVIL, and HATES WAR over the naive soul who believes he can “negotiate” with it.
As for the culture, the “war” here is nothing new, and it won’t go away soon no matter who we elect, though I’d say McCain has a better chance of reaching those across the aisle than Obama would (I’m still waiting to see a concrete example of him doing so…not just attaching his name to some legislation that has an “R” attached to it!)
What you mention as far as cultural differences is, yes, striking, but we as Americans actually have MORE that unites us than divides us…we just fail to recognize it and celebrate it like we should…lest we give the “other side” a reason to rejoice in “victory”.
Silly, isn’t it? It’s really more like a family feud than a civil war.
Feelings are hurt, voices are raised, recriminations are raised…but at night we sleep in the SAME house…even if it is in seperate bedrooms!
I think everyone needs to calm down.
I’m a Republican, and I come from a family of Democrats. Still love them, they still love me. We have some VERY energizing political discussions.
I’m gonna be carrying a gun against my family and folks like the neighbor across the street (who helped me changed my tire last week) just because they from a different political party?
I don’t think so!
That’s the stuff of bad science fiction.
Bugs nailed it @ 12:13. If we do have a war, it isn’t because the cab driver in Manhattan hates the truck driver in Terre Haute. It’s because the college professor at Columbia and the TV anchorman in Manhattan hate all of us.
As a former leftist turned libertarian, in any civil war I will know who to take on first. I say take on rather than take out, because it sounds better.
The left is undisciplined, living in a daze of drugs, alcohol, and delusion. They have rejected the study of war as beneath them, the study of agriculture as beneath them, the study of mechanism as beneath them. They are largely pseudo-intellectuals of the media and academia, and idiots who believe what the above PIs spout. In other words, mindless marching morons of the mental abyss.
Religion is irrational, but it helps people focus. There are secular equivalents, but most leftists disdain them as beneath them.
I doubt there will be civil war due to advances in technology which will make most problems and disagreements in the US moot. But if it comes to war, it cannot possibly be an equal battle, and it will not last long.
Well if we do have a civil war the Dems or libs will win for two reasons. 1.Dems/libs are a lot nastier, more evil and not as nice as conservatives. Conservatives won’t have the heart to go for the throat. 2.Dems/libs/evil doers will be supported militarily by most of the rest of the world.
Well, if there is a Civil War I can tell you which side will win. Pro-2nd Amendment, former military trained personell predominats the Republican/Conservative side. Knowing how to shoot an M-4, 240, 249 and trained in urban combat, against guitar playing, anti-war, loberals and it’ll bw all over in a couple of days.
The thing most people fail to remember (or learn in the first place), it that most “civil-wars” are started by a very small percentage of the population, for the vast majority, they simply have to live and deal with it. One should consider the American Revolution as a “civil-war” since for the most part, it was fought between factions here at home as much as the “armies” of Independence and Great Briton.
I don’t expect there to be a true “civil-war” as in 1861-1865 with maneuvering armies. If there was a Red/Blue military/insurrection conflict, it would be short in the extreme as has been explained in detail here due to the geographic distribution of firepower and logistics. Even those who partake of the Kool-Aid are not that ignorant. What I do expect is civil unrest which will make Watts of 1965 and LA of 1992 seem absolutely parochial.
Be prepared for some cities to have major holes in them.
MI
TO: Dave II
RE: The ‘Family’ Feud
I think that’s how the previous American Civil War started…..a ‘civil’ discussion about whether or not Blacks were actually ‘human beings’. And later, after things in the rhetorical arena ‘heated up’, it became somewhat more ‘intense’. And cost 600,000 American lives to settle the matter that THEY ARE ‘human beings’.
Today, thinks appear to be following a similar pattern. However, this time, it’s over some different moral issues; abortion, homosexuality, etc. And, following a similar pattern, it could well go a similar way.
But, as I pointed out in a comment (above), I think the trigger is going to be a matter of resources. In the mid-1800s the resource was Black slavery. Here and now, it’s probably going to be a more basic resource….water….in Colorado. Perhaps something different elsewhere.
The point being that I think the fact that the metropolitan areas, dominated by so-called Democrats, sucking up resources that make for the living of people in the rural areas, populated by so-called Republicans, are bringing a hellstorm upon US all.
The best way to avoid this is for the Supremes to revisit Reynolds v. Simms (1964) and overthrow that bit of activist judicial action; restoring the balance of power between metro and rural areas in the legislature.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
Sep 7, 2008 – 11:51 am Rubicon:
I think Rubicon comes closest to my position. The Fascists of the left are intent on making me a slave. Do I meekly acquiesce or do I die fighting?
To quote Patrick Henry: Give me liberty or give me death.
Folks, think to the future and to the logical conclusion of what the left wants for you.
What remains after you are a slave to the state?
Them and what army?
TO: Beth
RE: That….
…would be great.
But tell me…..
….how can you ‘calm down’ when everything you have has been stolen by the legislature?
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[No ones life, property or liberty is safe while the legislature is in session.]
Since we’re gaming a “red-blue” war, one other thing: I’ve heard blue staters claim that the red states need the blue states economically more than the blue states need the red states.
I wouldn’t bank on that. City folk so quickly forget where their food comes from. And their raw materials, and an increasing percentage of their manufactured goods. And…
And with telecommunication technology, we don’t need big cities as headquarters any more. The big city is an economic dinosaur. Go ahead and think that you’re economically indispensable, coasts.
“Will there be more violent and ugly confrontations upon encountering ideas and practices with which one disagrees?”
That’s a good question! Ask the Socialist left, they’re the alleged party of “tolerance”. They’re the individuals calling for an end to free speech via re-enactment of the “Fairness Doctrine”. They’re the individuals rushing on stage to attack a conservative guest speaker (Horowitz, Coulter, etc.). They’re the ones protesting on campuses to prevent conservative speakers from appearing (free speech for me but not for thee). They’re the ones harrassing college republican information stands on college campuses (So much for free speech again). They’re the ones attacking military recruiting offices (Milwaukee, New York’s Times Square, Berkeley Calif. by Code Pink) . They’re the ones calling our soldiers murderers based on now dismissed charges (John Murtha, D – PA Still waiting for Congressman Murtha’s apology) They’re the ones vandalizing cars with conservative bumper stickers. They’re the ones stealing conservative party lawn signs.
The list of intolerance from the Socialists goes on and on ad nauseum………
Today’s Socialist party (Democrat party) is nothing more than a repeat of the vanguard of the Nationalist Party of Germany back in 1940. The only difference being today’s “Nationalist Party” members are enjoying a lifestyle undreamed of back in 1940.
If there is going to be a “civil war” then I say bring it on before I die because I want to be a part of it……………
I think the whole culture war can be resolved by returning to our Constitution. The intent of the Founders, via the 10th Amendment, was for the states to be semi-sovereign with the Federal government acting on behalf of the nation as a whole in international affairs, defense, trade, and other functions that require us to act as a single nation. Today the Fed completely ignores the 10th Amendment and routinely usurps state authority which has led to the Red/Blue divide. This will allow people to live as they see fit without Californians dictating to Kansans for example how to manage their state resources, that they should support gay marriage, abortion, etc. This was the original intent of the Founders.
And for any of you pro-choicers that believe a McCain-Palin administration will have any impact on your precious “right” to abortion, please remove your heads from your a$$es. It ain’t gonna happen. Do you really think a majority of Congress would pass a bill outlawing abortion?
Even if Roe were overturned that does not make abortion illegal.
Roe however, should be overturned simply because it’s bad law. Even honest Liberals admit to that. There is simply no right to privacy anywhere in the Constitution from which a right to an abortion can ‘emanate’.
What should happen is for Roe to be overturned and then abortion returned to the STATE legislatures where it Constitutionally belongs. Some states will ban it, others won’t.
And if we ever did enter a civil war it wouldn’t last long. The disarmed effeminate Lefties would be slaughtered or surrender within a week.
If the Left wants a socialist Utopia then I say let THEM pay for it. There is a line on the 1040 tax form that allows you to make additional ‘contributions’. So if you want to pay for national (socialist) health care then pay for it yourself. Stop using the power of the government to enslave the rest of us to our government masters.
Ms.Chesler
I hope you feel better soon. Certainly I hope your temperature drops. You have illustrated in this article why such overwrought imaginings are often described as “fevered”.
One thing to keep in mind is that if Roe v.Wade were, by some unlikely chain of events, to be overturned the legality of abortion would be decided by individual states. New York and California had already legalized abortion before 1973. Most blue states would not experience any change in their access to abortions.
TO: Eric
RE: Let US Return!
Great idea. However, there is one teensy-weensy problem.
Via the vaunted American public education system, a LOT of people don’t understand the idea that the rule of law, as espoused in that document, should be observed. Someone, a few millennia ago, referred to the situation along the lines of ‘a generation of vipers’.
I lay the fault at the feet of the vaunted American public education system, i.e., the ‘teachers’ [Note: Something of a misnomer, that.] union.
Their comportment of late reminds me of what someone else in another thread was describing as the primary motivation of ‘Community Organizers’, i.e., lining their pockets with money and garnering political power.
In the meantime, in my capacity as a county-level commissioner, I hear how young adults coming out of the high school can’t cope with college-level education.
I think it’s referred to as ‘brain-washing’.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. Got any suggestions on how to correct this problem?
It is absolutely ridiculous to compare Nazis to Republicans. The National Socialist Party was thoroughly secular and pretty heavy-handed with any dissent from religious leaders. Being a Socialist Party, they had no problem with taking an active role in controlling markets and industries, and wildly expanding public works programs, which is in marked contrast to the ideology of American “Red-State” conservatives, who advocate free market capitalism and private enterprise. The expansion of the “safety net” welfare state advocated by Democrats is far closer in practice to the National Socialist Party than any Republican policy. But conservatives never call Democrats “nazis.” Any honest comparison to the National Socialists to either American party is an infantile rhetoric device.
Any liberal who trots out that old horse should be laughed off of this or any blog.
If I were to make a biting negative claim about the Democratic Party, I would merely use their own history to condemn them. The Democratic Party’s ideological history follows four paradigms: The Four “S’s”. Slavery. Secession. Segregation. Socialism.
The Democratic Party supported the perpetuation of slavery. When Lincoln won the election on an anti-slavery Republican platform, Democrats seceded from the Union and formed the Confederate States of America. After losing the war, Democrats overcame Reconstructionist efforts by Republicans to integrate Southern politics and instead passed segregationist “Jim Crow” laws and organized the Ku Klux Klan as their terrorist arm to intimidate black Republican voters at the polls.
Every historical African American figure you’ve ever studied, from Fredrick Douglass and Harriet Tubman right up through Martin Luther King, Jr. were all card-carrying Republicans. While it is true that President Lyndon Johnson was the primary political force to finally get civil rights legislation passed in the US, he did so by arm-twisting bigoted members of his own party–and, in the end, 80% of Republicans voted for it and only 60% of Democrats did. Almost every piece of substantial civil rights legislation of that time was written by Republicans, most notably Senator Dickson if IL.
When Republicans question the perpetuation of affirmative action, Democrats have no place to call them “racist.” Affirmative action was a Republican initiative. They own it, and certainly are in a morally superior position to question its continued use than those who opposed it.
If Democrats want to criticize Republicans on a valid issue, it would be corruption and hypocrisy. Republicans have never, ever been successful with their stated goal of “reducing the size of government.” Even with Republican control of Congress, the Senate, and the White House, they caved in to the same “pork-for-pork” favor-trading with each other to buy off constituencies, and took obvious conflict of interest donations from powerful businesses and PACs.
In fact, the 1994 Congress, with their “Contract With America”, were far more effective at advancing that Republican ideal than the current crop, even with Bill Clinton in the White House.
McCain’s initial opposition to the Bush tax cuts was not that he didn’t like the idea–he just thought some sort of fiscal responsibility should accompany one. There is no doubt that scaling back tax rates can stimulate an economy, but doing so while expanding federal expenditures is a bad idea. While it’s true that Bush’s tax cuts resulted in MORE money taken into the US Treasury (not less, as detractors would suggest), the additional revenue does not compare with the huge budget and the deficit spending required to keep the bloated US federal government afloat.
I don’t view this as “Red State” vs. “Blue State”. It is really urban vs. rural.
It is a clash of traditional American provincial values of individual liberty and freedom voluntarily restrained through commonly shared Judeo-Christian morality; material prosperity achieved through participation in a fairly managed meritocracy where private enterprise, small business ownership, and independent, self-interested hard work bring success; and an intrinsic value given to human life and liberty that extends to the pre-born. These are historically held values, and even after decades of assault to them by the entertainment media, are still largely held by the majority of Americans in “fly over country.”
That world view opposes the relatively newer, more cosmopolitan values of liberty of human conduct completely unfettered from any binding universal truth or moral standard, the collectivist impulse to rely on government to solve societal ills and the willingness to trade economic liberty for welfare programs that are intended to serve the common good, and the elevation of property rights of a woman’s body over the individual rights of the pre-born person (not unlike the Dred Scott Decision, another Democratic embarrassment). These values are held by those in urban areas and among disgruntled members of American minority groups and liberal academics, and really took off during the rise of socialist workers movements in the early and mid 20th Century. In fact, it is often said that the last bastions of ideologically pure Marxism remaining on Earth are American university campuses.
Senator Obama comes squarely from the latter world, his opponent (and his running mate in particular) from the former. Which of the two tickets truly represents “American values”? We’ll soon find out.
TO: Historian
RE: Compare & Contrast
I disagree.
Anyone who engages in the public venue of political debate can be compared and contrasted against ANY political philosophy.
To claim somethink is ‘out of bounds’ is the epitome of ‘political correctness’.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Hitler was 'politically correct', in HIS venue.]
BRAVO, “Historian”! Most articulate. I’d be interested on your estimation of Goldberg’s book, “Liberal Fascism.” (I know, OT…hey, it’s Sunday evening…)
Historian, we already know.
That question has been asked by pollsters on a regular basis for decades;
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_082508/content/01125110.guest.html
{snipped from Rush}
What is Question D3 and what were the results to Question D3 in the August 20, 2008 Battleground Poll?
When thinking about politics and government, do you consider yourself to be…
Very conservative,
somewhat conservative,
moderate,
somewhat liberal,
very liberal,
unsure/refused.
“20% of Americans considered themselves to be very conservative; 40% of Americans considered themselves to be somewhat conservative–”
So before any ads, speeches or clever political ploys, the conservative vote is half again what the liberal vote is.
ANY Liberal candidate starts off in a 20 point hole.
America IS a conservative nation, or at least it’s citizens identify themselves as such by a 3 to 2 margin.
Every 4 years we go thru a process that offers formal recognition of that fact.
“That all men are equal is a proposition which, at ordinary times, no sane individual has ever given his assent.”
Aldous Huxley
English critic & novelist (1894 – 1963)
I am retired, and as such, free to be quite political, I fear, as do 90% of my neighbors, that if Obama is elected that there will be great strife in this nation, civil and financial.
My Son is a Sheriffs Deputy and a SGT in the National Guard. He tells me, and I have no reason to not believe him, that the word from *da hood* is, when B-rock Obama gets in, it’s ON, Barack isn’t gonna let you white (insert the reference to ones mother here) do all us bros like that anymore, we are gonna own yo white a**es…
Now you can take it as you like, but I fear that either way it goes, we’re in for a fight in this nation very soon…
My next door neighbor and his wife are both black, and VERY conservative, both are very against Obama, they have family in law enforcement too, and they are hearing the exact same things my Son is hearing…
The folks that was racial equality the most seem to be the ones doing the most to assure racial dominance, and the sad truth is, we’re all a part of the HUMAN race, they seem to forget that…
And BTW, this is an excellent article, I hope you get well soon, we need great writers like you doing daily rants in the blogosphere…
If it actually came to violence, it isn’t hard to figure out which side would win. It’s the side that has the guns and knows how to use them. It’s the side where the majority of America’s soldiers, sailors, and airmen hail from. It’s the side that thinks freedom is worth dying for, and is willing to prove it with actions.
Ultimately, it would be the “other America” outside of the nation’s great metropolises that would win, but perhaps it has not yet occurred to most of its hard-working, humble inhabitants. That, or they are long-suffering. Either way, “cosmopolitan” America would probably be wise not to take it for granted.
I just don’t know anyone on the left who is patriotic, respects the Constitution, supports the rights of Americans as described in the Bill of Rights, opposes communism, opposes socialism, opposes jihadism, and supports the separation of mosque and state. There is no patriot in the Democratic Party. The morons who vote for the Democrats are just that. Stupid people who say “Oh well, Republicans have been in office for a while. Let’s have some change. Give the Democrats a chance”. Morons to the last one. And dangerous as well, as when confronting Iran, Al Queda, an imperial Russia, etc., the Democrats reflexively support the enemies of America. Whethere is is the communists of the cold war or radical Islam, the Democrats are on the side of the enemy. No amount of “Oh, there are good people on both sides” nonsense can cover it up. Because if those who support communism and Islam can be good people, the commies and Islamists can be good people. Can’t we all get along mentality is suicide.
I believe the writer has missed a valid point. When Obama does lose the 2008 election the blacks in this country will again feel cheated (LA RIOTS), again demand the “no jussice no peece” thereby causing massive chimp-outs and rioting and looting. Again, Whites will falsely be accused of racism. Again, instead of accepting the fact that America isn’t ready to trade freedom for Marxism they (the blacks) will instead claim that Obama wasn’t elected because he’s black with race and the perception of racism being what drives them to the polls. I believe that the coming civil war will not be about who believes what, or what party should be in the White House, but about Race. All we can hope for is a peaceful November 3rd.
@ Chuck,
Actually I do have one idea; elect Obama POTUS. With him in charge and the Dems with majorities in the House and Senate we can be guaranteed massive growth in socialism that may just push a lot of Red states over the edge and follow Oklahoma’s lead in fighting for their Constitutional rights: http://townhall.com/columnists/WalterEWilliams/2008/07/16/oklahoma_rebellion
If Obama wins my prediction is that much of the Red part of the country joins OK.
Ex-Fetus,
Thanks for the link. You have buoyed my spirits considerably!
Ed Wallis,
Have read about it but not read it yet. Might pick up a copy now that you mention it. Just read Mark Stein’s America Alone–which was very compelling. Hard to argue the slow moving yet unstoppable glacier that is demographics. Europe is pretty much doomed. Enjoy your burkas, feminists of London and Paris. If you think biblical Christianity’s condemnation of abortion is bad, wait until you get to live life under Sharia, once Muslims outnumber all other factions in a parliamentary democracy. Which WILL happen, seeing that you all are making such informed “reproductive choices”, while immigrant Muslim families explode in population. But they’re “assimilating”, right?
Good luck with that.
Thankfully, the US is one of the only Western nations that is actually reproducing in sufficient numbers to maintain equilibrium. And our biggest immigrant population, Mexicans, at least share our Judeo-Christian values.
But now back to the topic. If, as the Battleground Poll suggests, that 60% of voters are conservative, then the Sarah Palin pick is a work of political genius. Every conservative I know is absolutely high as a kite about the McCain/Palin ticket, and would have stayed home in droves if he would have picked Tom Ridge or Lieberman. Palin is Reagan in pumps. Attractive, witty, funny, winsome. Provided she doesn’t completely drop the ball in the debate with Biden, she’ll be our first woman VP. With her outrageous gun -totin’, moose-huntin’, hockey mom bio and her thick Upper Midwest accent, the Democrats and the MSM won’t be able to resist the temptation to dismissively underrate her as a bumpkin. That’s okay. They dismissively underrated Reagan and George W. as well. Liberal intellectual elitism and snobbery = Republican victories, provided we have a star-power candidate, which they do.
Do you guys ever read the stuff you write?
According to the posts I read here, there is a line in the sand which cannot be crossed. All conservatives are gun-toting, bible thumping, baby loving, no tax, pro-war, oil drilling, highly intelligent, with a mandate from God.
whereas all liberal are either femininazis or metrosexuals, who want to give all of their money to the gov’t and be protected from cradle to grave,atheist (or at best agnostic), abortionists,turn the other cheek, green, two digit IQs with no concept of what God has made us.
No wonder you talk of civil war. But what if there are people out there who believe in war only if necessary and if diplomacy has failed, that believe that government should be truthful, that own guns and hunt but don’t believe that everyone needs an AK-47, who realizes that like death, taxes are inevitable, but expect responsible spending from Gov’t, Who don’t necessarily believe in abortion but also don’t believe that they have the right to tell another what to believe. Who don’t have a religious affiliation, but don’t mind if you do and don’t really want to hear your views on it. Who want the ability to have freedom of religion but also freedom from religion if they so chhoose. who expect to be able to disagree with the government and its’ policies without being branded a traitor. Who is a veteran but believe that this war is unfounded and ill prosecuted. Who believe we were right to invade Afghanistan but not Iraq. Who wonders why we will follow Bin Laden to the gates of hell, but not to Pakistan. People who hunt but think that you should eat what you kill. People who wonder why in these tough economic times we give money to countries like Pakistan who so obviously don’t support our goals.
In short what about those of us who are not Red or Blue but White (not in the racial sense) like that other color in the flag. What about those who like Patrick Henry may not agree with what you say but will fight to the death for your right to say it? We have a right to an opinion too without being stuck with a label. We are people with opinions and maybe being in the middle is the new politically incorrect position.
Why would anyone take time to comment on a thread where Godwin’s Law is broken so often? After 15 years of internet arguments I know I shouldn’t, but here I am.
People, in internet discussions the first person to bring up Germany’s government in the mid 20th century LOSES the argument. Unless the other side responds in kind. This thread has so many violations that I’m not sure who’s won.
Reductio ad Hitlerum is ALWAYS an invalid argument unless the initial topic under discussion is historical and involves the policies or events of 1875-1950.
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
Ahem,
A triggering assassination, as in the terrorist attack of June 28, 1914 might do the trick with regard to the blue state – red state divide. As various commentators have pointed out, the military resources of the red states vastly overmatch those of the blue states.
An assassination of the newly elected R party vice president during the illness or incapacity of the not-so-young John McCain would put Nancy Pelosi in charge of the USA. If a foreign crisis were ongoing and, if some person of the political views of “truth” (first violator of Godwin’s Law, supra) were apparently responsible, well, I could imagine a division in the military over following Ms Pelosi’s commands.
Much stranger Black Swans have happened in history. People remark on Bristol Palin’s early pregnancy, but remember, a bunch of middle aged military men once put their country’s army into the hands of a girl. ( Saint) younger than Bristol. Amazingly, that actually worked out.
There is always a middle ground. Hopefully after Obama’s embarrassing defeat (and subsequent global hissyfit), the Democratic Party will purge the toxic left and move back to the center – socially liberal, but solidly pro-American.
TO: Eric
RE: The Doomsday Scenario
I’m reminded of the last lines spoken by Claudius in I, Claudius….
Rather messy. But effective….
….if there are any people left over who can affect reform.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. From a very personal perspective….
…the oath of office of every commissioned officer of the Armed Forces of the United States is to “uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States against ALL ENEMIES; foreign AND domestic.”
Once you’ve taken that oath, you are without honor to not uphold it.
Usually when I hear someone bring up the subject of civil war or (more commonly) revolution, it’s an unabashed leftist. I always ask these people how many guns they own. They’re horrified and tell me none, they would not have a gun in their house.
“That’s funny,” I tell them, “I own about a dozen. Good luck.”
And Chuck — you are correct. I took that oath, and will not be released from it until they put me in a hole and shovel the dirt in.
Goodwins Law is a THEORY, NOT a law. Not in any sense of the word law.
It got Goodwin some ego bo, but that is about it. It gets violated all the time, or in a scientific manner has been disproven as many times as the flat earth theory.
I have seen it fail on a forum thread, and many times since blogs replaced Forums.
Now that we have PJM, which is a incestuous cross between a forum and a blog, I expect Many of the old wives tales called ‘laws’ that exist about the Web to be disproven.
I forget what it’s called, but there is a theory that no one site will attract and keep more then 160 posters. ITM did MUCH better then that in it’s heyday. I’m pretty sure PJM will blow right past those limits, if it hasn’t already.
So we will see if by grouping 10 blogs you bump that 160 to 1600.
“The problem with any unwritten law is that you don’t know where to go to erase it.”
Glaser and Way
how can you ‘calm down’ when everything you have has been stolen by the legislature?
Chuck, if you would, please elaborate on that comment for me. Not sure if I get your point.
Are you talking about you in particular right now, or all of us at some point in the future?
“Goodwins Law is a THEORY, NOT a law.”
Sorry, no. Laws are broken all the time in my state. You telling me you don’t lock your door at night?
Flat Earth is a theory. I believe it’s been falsified.
Human laws cannot be falsified, just violated.
I do think no group can have very much more than 160 regular posters. At least in usenet’s heyday someone would create a new group well before that level was reached.
In any case, the comparisons in this thread to that German government that followed the Weimar republic are quite strained.
In order to have a civil war, both sides must have enough power to give them a colorable chance to win. That is why I postulate some situation where the armed force’s oath rightly mentioned by Mr. Pelto would be ambiguous. In the case I mention above, the Blue states would have to be able to argue with at least some validity, that Ms Pelosi’s orders were invalid. Under the 25th Amendment to the constitution, the president’s incapacity might be declared and the vice president take over. The amendment only details how the vice president goes about declaring that the period of incapacitation is over. Should the VP be killed during the president’s incapacitation, the constitution is silent on what happens. All this seems very improbable, but history is absolutely filled with civil wars that occurred because of improbable succession crises.
Otherwise there cannot be a civil war. President Obama’s orders will be obeyed. Jihadists in possession of a nuclear weapon might completely decapitate the US government, but that wouldn’t be a civil war.
the leftists are not liberals nor are they socialists, obama is no marxist and neither is joe biden. other than empowering their own paltry selves, none of them have any core values. the pandering leftists want just to hear their own rhetoric. owners of the new political correctness, they are so asisine as to support islamic fanatics who would like nothing better than to see them dead. fortunately, for us, they are barnacles that have attached themselves to this faux replica of the democratic party and they will go down together. it would seem the democrats, even one so ignorant and as much of a doofus as howard dean, might have noticed this was happening. obama’s inability to understand the true nature of americans, mistakenly led his flock to believe that we are no deeper than our color. it is the reason he will fail miserably. no one deserves it more than barry obama. the man is vacant of mind and soul. there is no civil war between americans. there is a dividing line. it is between what is good and what is very bad for america. Islamic fascists, supported by the left, who in turn align themselves with mr. obama (and vice versa) want a divided america. they have insinuated themselves into our schools, our universities, our media, blabbing their dislike of america and their bizarre fake history. I am a life long democrat, but I am an american first. I will vote for mccain-palin. personally, it will help me sleep better, knowing who is roaming around the white house.
Paul from Florida,
you are ignorant one. the Nazis co-opted many Priest and Ministers and didn’t go around killing people over religion unless it was Judaism. They even created an Aryan Christian church. Remember the Concordat of 1933? Somehow a lot of Christian and Catholic cons have created some veritable fifth column of Catholic resistance to Nazism out of thin air. Yet the Vatican never once made one overt anti-Nazi statement or warned the world about the Holocaust, even after we liberated Rome. (If they were so anti-Nazi, the Nazis had a year to do them in but didn’t) And they use to laugh at the French for overplaying their Resistance.
A country boy will servive.(HW Jr.)
Sums it up for me.
Johnnie,
and most people like you on the right can’t get past cheap talk show cliche thinking and conjuring up one doomsday scenario after another.
Eric, your cheap crack about effeminate gunles liberals being easy meat for gun toting rednecks like you is so pathetic and juvenile, it’s amazing you can use a computer. Figure, if there was going to be a civil war, a: not all country people would fight for the Republicans b: the black and latino criminal gangstas and military members would mostly go blue c: There are still plenty of labor union types who could care less about snake handlers and rich corporate douchebags, and there are plenty of marginalized working class whites who would feel the same.
You sound like you are hoping for one, so you can satiate your blood lust and gay hating mentality. But like your Bush baby hero, you would end up biting off more than you could chew.
Judy 9/07 4:39 am:
Please continue making people see the light!
Chuck Pelto:
Keep it up!!!
People like you can move this country ahead.
I hope it wont come to this conclusion because we all have to remember that we all came from the same place, world and being! As John Lennon said…..Remember all the people, living life in peace!
I’m glad some of you folks commenting here think “upholding and defending the constitution” is a good idea. It’s a shame it’s only some. And a bigger shame that many of you in your writing express something bordering on glee at the idea of an actual shooting war between Americans on American soil. That is treason.
i don’t remember retracting that oath either. so people without guns are going to fight with people with guns? knives to a gunfight? not going to be a good thing. ok,seriously, that tired old line about when the revolution comes…. give it a rest. the left is gonna have another hissy fit because they put up a no load to run for potus. they are supposed to be the intellectuals here.
anarchist meeting canceled due to inability to come to order
“Sorry, no. Laws are broken all the time in my state. You telling me you don’t lock your door at night?”
No, I don’t. This time of year I don’t even close it.
I have the worlds best burgler alarm. A 120Lb Rottweiler bitch. For you city types, that is a BIG dog, about twice the size of your average police dog. Plus a gravel driveway about 2 miles long that goes past two neighbors before it gets to me. BTW, I’m armed. Well armed. Suzui ( my dog) sleeps pretty soundly after eating. I try not to feed her before bed but letting a big dog with big teeth get hungry is not a very good idea( country joke).
I’m hoping what comes out of this standing on the brink and looking into the abyss is a reduction in the federal government and an increase in States rights. That way those Americans that prefer Socialism can go live in a Socialist state like Maryland, or Taxachussets. Those that wish to murder their children can go someplace to do that. Ditto for hard drugs, perverted sex, gambling, etc.
That isn’t a permanent solution, but it will work until those socialist states run out of other people’s money, and by then the Roe Effect will be in full force and those states can be re-populated.
When your enemy intentionally won’t reproduce, waiting for their extinction is a viable strategy.
We can safely predict that there will be no civil war if/when the Republicans once again occupy the White House …. These are the simple facts …. You are likely all doomed (well 95% of you) to increasing poverty, illness and mayhem.
After a McCain victory there will only be the ever growing masses of people who will live marginally and are controlled by the ‘market forces’ and also the Oligarchy of the Rich and Powerful (All Old White Men – I’m one of them) who seek to ever expand and consolidate wealth and power.
From a distance we weep for all Americans who are among the voluntarily disenfranchised and will not vote for Obama even if it is in their best interests ….
Medicare is a case in point where both major parties and their respective candidates in the US elections fail their people quite grievously …..
We weep for a country who’s leader threatened to veto a childrens medicare bill because that would lead to “Government Sponsored Medicare” …. Look north my good friends to a neighbouring country (Wealthier than America) where all our children are covered by “Government Sponsored” Universal Medicare …. Your politicuans all need to pull their heads out from “you know where” and act now!!
Remember not to listen to the lies about creeping “Socialism” they are so stale and so 100% LIES [Remember Edward R. Murrow] …. Come north for an “In-Person” visit and talk to the Candaian people here about how medicare funded by government/taxes ‘works’ rather than accept the littany of lies told by the American media and your politicians who are all too timid (or bought) to tell the truth.
All Americans are in peril to the moneyed minions (Predominantly Rich ‘White’ Republicans) who machinate behind these latest moves … and who believe and practice methods of governing & business that ensure that the “Market” will still be promoted as a salvation in and of itself … and who also believe (d) that it’s self-regulating capacity was just fine and so they spouted such gibberish until their shareholders were already in the tumbrel ….
Whoever your new president is … and McCain seems to have the Rove playbook down pat and the media are ineffectual as usual so his chances grow exponentially …. Should McCain win he will assuredly step into a time warp …. of course that will require he spout a line from March of 1933 …. by about Jan 20th of next year …. “The Only Thing We Have to Fear Is Fear Itself” ….
I wonder if this group of “I’m not a Bush Republican” corporate front pieces are as capable of scraping together a credible disaster handling “Brains Trust” as FDR did …. and does Senator McCain have a reputable and intelligent economist in the wings …. the disturbing reality is that he has (by current stock taking) only obtained a photogenic VP who is by dint of American subservience to ‘image’ — given instant ‘credential’ without any time tested evidence of substance (Her public utterances would certainly indicate a second rate intellect) …. But her brilliantly displayed capacity to insult and mislead under the protective cloak of gender, family and religiosity is not enough for the test …. So we fear for you all.
It is indeed an inadequate facsimile for what will be required should McCain die or be incapacitated in office …. a distinct possibility for a man of years and previous physical wounds and illness ….
History has many lessons … but that so few have learned them is all too apparent here … let us pray ….
— Written in a corner of the north woods of Canada … Where reading the works of Spinoza, Newton, Hume, Locke, Voltaire, Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Mary Wollstonecraft, Henry David Thoreau, Thomas Paine, & John Kenneth Galbraith is still considered an essential grounding in the basics of democracy …. And necessary for sound reasoning and thinking … and an exercise that gives pause and due consideration to avoiding any ‘ill-educated’ reflection on the human condition that is grounded solely in the text subject to examination in the Scopes Monkey Trials of 80 years ago….
Some of us Canadians have a sad and melancholy fear about what may befall the Great Republic to the south of us should the party of the past eight years of grievous national and international mistakes and subservience to greedy corporate narcissism continue to hold sway in the halls of government … especially the “White House”.
Canadian Geezer,
Absent from your list of essential reading regarding democracy: any of the authors of the Federalist Papers. When it comes to discussing US political theory, the rationales of the Founding Fathers is arguably the most important and the most logical place to start.
With regard to Canadian healthcare: isn’t it true that a new crop of private sector, free enterprise health clinics and service providers are peppering the Great White North? Even though they are technically against the law and defy the mandate for a universal health care system? They wouldn’t exist and could never make their first loon if the public sector healthcare system was the utopian dream you’ve implied it is. Where does the demand come from?
For all of the wacky, pro-socialism rhetoric we hear from the likes of Michael Moore, suggesting that Cuban healthcare is superior to that of the US, the truth is that while it is certainly expensive, American healthcare is the envy of the world. Anyone who can afford to heads to our hospitals and clinics to treat their chronic diseases.
While we appreciate your concern, we’ll be just fine with McCain and Palin in the White House, thank you very much. They present a much better chance at addressing the undue influence of corporations or PACs in government than Senators Obama and Biden.
Cleanthes 6:34 – “Much stranger Black Swans have happened in history. People remark on Bristol Palin’s early pregnancy, but remember, a bunch of middle aged military men once put their country’s army into the hands of a girl. ( Saint) younger than Bristol. Amazingly, that actually worked out.
Yeah…but it turned them all French!
…jocularity…jocularity…
I don’t think all Canadians would agree with you. Any American who has had to deal with Medicare (or Kid Care) would like as not disagree with you — the general concensus of most people on state health care around here (I live in a very “blue” state) is that they would be better served by the local vetrinarian than the state healthcare “professionals”, and most private practice doctors no longer accept state healthcare patients as they often wait 2+ to be reimbursed by the state which often tries to short them on the amount paid out — so you have these patients going to the local emergency room as their primary provider, even for the common cold. Add to that the tax burden on the working class, land owners, and business, and it has led to more poverty, not less (which perpetuates the state healthcare and other welfare programs). Not a good, workable scenario. I think health insurance reform/regulation might be the answer, but so far state provided healthcare, at least here, has been a dismal failure.
I find this “red state/blue state” commentary a bit naive. There are many “blue” states which have very “red” sections to them — Mr. Obama’s is a very good case in point. There are large sections of Illinois (mostly in the central and southern counties) which are very much opposed, and yes, there have been grumblings of secession of the down state from Cook Co. that have gone on for years. There are neighborhoods in NYC, NO, SF that are very much “red” in a sea of blue. Most people in America, at least I find most people, are some shade of “purple”. So I believe the political climate is far more nuanced than either the far left or the far right would like to admit, and the likelihood of civil war/secession is pretty unlikely.
I do however, believe that there will be some civil unrest with this election — hopefully people keep their wits about them and don’t excerbate it.
Much of this discussion involves what ideologies/motivations would drive a civil war. Whether from the right or left I don’t think a broad based guerilla insurgency is tenable. The Feds would squash that easily enough.
Most likely (just as in the Civil War) one polarized state decides to secede. This could happen on either side of the political spectrum-say California or Texas.
Should that occur, again the Feds will step in (either party) and if they have the loyalty of the military, will win. That’s the real question. Will the military be unified and loyal? If so, the war’s soon over. If the military splits that’s when the war begins and things will get ugly very quickly.
TO: Beth
RE: Taking It All Away
It hasn’t happened to me….nor anyone else I’m personally aware of….YET.
But I see the pieces on the chess board being moved into place.
RE: Example
Aurora, a major city adjacent to Denver and part of the metroplex, has multiple leases of water from farmers, ranchers and municipalities in the Arkansas River basin. It is building businesses and houses using that water.
The local Board of Water Works people claim that their leases are iron-clad and cannot be broken in a court of law.
However, when those leases expire, what is Aurora going to do? Tell all those people and businesses that they have to move away? Or will they use their heft in the state legislature—since the state senate is dominated by the metropolitan areas—to change the laws so that these iron-clad contracts are made null and void?
Some people may argue that the Water Courts wouldn’t let that happen. But, as I pointed out earlier, the governors appoint judges for such and those judges are approved with the advice and consent of the state senate.
Change the laws. Appoint the proper judges and [please pardon my French] Voilá!
Then the REAL ‘fun’ is going to begin.
Without the water in the Arkansas, southern Colorado is a desert.
This is why I don’t think much of the possibility of serious racial or political wars. They are strictly idiotlogical in nature. But when you start losing your livelihood….THAT’s a different story…..
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[There is no maxim, in my opinion, which is more liable to be misapplied, and which, therefore, more needs elucidation, than the current one, that the interest of the majority is the political standard of right and wrong. -- James Madison]
TO: DonB71InWA
RE: Good Question
I remember having this sort of discussion as a rifleman in an rifle platoon of the 82d Airborne Division prior to deploying to Washington DC for the May Day Riots of 1971. We’d all been briefed in on the lawful use of deadly force. We’d all been made VERY MUCH AWARE of what constituted a ‘lawful order’, vis-a-vis the My Lai Massacre and/or Kent State.
We were certain that if an idiot officer—not that we had any in our company at the time—told us to do something involving an illegal use of deadly force, that officer might be VERY surprised at what actually happened.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[A good education makes a people easy to lead, but difficult to drive; Easy to govern, but impossible to enslave. - Lord Henry Brougham]
P.S. Currently, it my considered opinion that the vaunted American public education system is not providing that good of an education.
However, when those leases expire, what is Aurora going to do?
Probably give it to the person(s) who will pay the most for it. And that won’t be the farmers/ranchers.
We have the same situation here in California.
But we do have more options in solving the problem of water use in the arid west. I expect desalination to be a big part of our future.
Of course, if we stopped our projected massive population growth (mostly from legal/illegal immigration), many of these problems could be averted or minimized. If not, I fear that you are right about future water wars.
Dear Mr. Wallis:
It is routine for presidential candidates to dispatch supporters to challenge the positions of the vice presidental candidate of the opposing party.
As there are 50 states in the United States, there is a lot of territory to cover and the presidential candidate cannot be everywhere at once.
That Obama’s campaign operates within these logistical realities (just as McCain’s does) is not evidence of condescension or cowardice.
That Democratic women are willing to rebut Palin’s reactionary agenda is a testimony to their genuine concern for the welfare of women in the United States.
A lot of people are talking about Roe v Wade here. When the civil war comes it won’t be about abortion. Not really. It might be about race, but not really. There will be blacks and whites on both sides. It might be triggered by water rights, but it won’t be about water. The war, and it’s coming eventually, will be about the nature of sovreignty. Can the people surrender their natural sovreignty to a government as Rosseau claimed, or is the right to abolish a government inalienable as Locke claimed? Is the guiding document to be the constitution, which brooks no abolition, or the declaration of independance, which *is* the abolition of government in written form?
I don’t think the constitution can be saved. People have learned to vote themselves money. Either there will be a civil war and the winners will rewrite the constitution to make vote buying as close to impossible as they can manage or there’ll be a civil war and the winners will turn our constitution into the EU’s or there’ll be no civil war and we’ll slowly slip into socialism through judicial reinterpretation and amendment. Or maybe congress will stop spending like it’s not their money, but historical evidence seems to be against the amilenialists.
Dear Mr. Wallis:
It is not condescension or cowardice for a presidential candidate to dispatch supporters to campaign appearances. It is routine politics for both McCain and Obama.
Dear Mr. Beck:
To respond to your question, I think that Obama is more reflective and deliberative than MCain. We have an honest difference of opinion. It is intolerant of you to attribute that to stupidity.
I personally believe American Liberals are indoctrinated Communists or Communist sympathizers that are in control of the DNC, along with Socialists like George Soros… they are NOT Democrats…I also believe that Obama is a closet Marxist Communist…I persoannly believe also that while there are things wrong in the US, there are many more things right…The ‘Liberals’ simply want to enslave me and mine, at any cost including Civil War…
Brian in Ohio,
you are too ignorant and paranoid to cast as sane, objective ballot. But at least you are home here at PM.
Phyllis,
We older conservative-libertarians welcome you younger ones to the movement with gratitude and respect. However, it might behoove some of you to read up on folks like Allan Bloom, to understand where the real divide is.
Blame it all on Rousseau. The Romanticist-utopian, humanistic-idealist ideas he fostered upon the modern world, not only directly lead to Robespierre and The Terror, but to Weber, Hegel, Marx. Nietzsche, Marcuse, Sartre, the post-modernists in vogue in campuses today – to every statist utopian scheme that murdered millions, enslaved millions more, and excused, distorted, and obfuscated all this under tonnages of goopy pseudo-intellectual rhtorical windings. Another recent convert to common sense, the writer David Mamet, seems to get it when he calls his new understanding a turn to the “pessimistic view” – ie. the classic Judeo-Christian understanding of man. The best Enlightenment thinkers (Burke, Montesquieu) got it. The Founders got it. The best conservatives from Chesterton to Churchill, from Podhoretz to Prager get it. The Holocaust survivor, psychologist and writer, Victor Frankl got it too:
“The gas chambers of Auschwitz were the ultimate consequence of a theory that man is nothing but the consequence of heredity and environment — or as the Nazis liked to say, of ‘blood and soil.’ I’m absolutely convinced that the gas chambers of Auschwitz, Treblinka and Maidanek were ultimately prepared, not in some ministry or other in Berlin, but rather in the desks and lecture halls of nihilistic scientists and philosophers.”
That’s where the real battle has been always, and will continue to be.
Ex-fetus:
You are quite paranoid and belligerent, Wouldn’t all your small town virtues and faith in Jesus would make you more trusting and kind?
A lot of people here are actually itching for a war, exhibiting the same fascist, militaristic, gun nut thinking that helped start the last war. Iraq was not jihadist, part of 9/11 or any threat to us yet you juvenile militaristic bullies went right along with Bush and his Napoleonic delusions cause you are basically stupid, dishonest easily duped fools. War war guns guns kill kill, all from pro-life people of faith who claim to love the constitution so much.
In reading through the comments, I find an interesting variety of hypotheses regarding the nature and timing of a coming civil war in the United States of America.
I would suggest that the civil war is already under way. We are a nation divided, and the division has been growing for decades – with a pronounced bump at every presidential election cycle, regardless of the outcome. The level of polarization – of partisanship – seems incomprehensible to those of us that have been around a few decades, but we shouldn’t be shocked. Simply look to George Washington’s farewell address, with its warnings against the spirit of party.
One particularly salient excerpt:
“One of the expedients of party to acquire influence within particular districts is to misrepresent the opinions and aims of other districts. You cannot shield yourselves too much against the jealousies and heartburnings which spring from these misrepresentations; they tend to render alien to each other those who ought to be bound together by fraternal affection.”
The Right and Left in this country are at war with each other to the point where civil discourse and the ability to come to some sort of compromise are, if not dead, certainly in very poor health. And I see no hope for removal of these walls that are growing between us.
A civil war coming in the USA? I say it’s already going on – I just pray we can continue to keep it short of a violent armed conflict.
“A civil war coming in the USA? I say it’s already going on – I just pray we can continue to keep it short of a violent armed conflict.”
Too late, it’s already happening, albeit in a localized manner. The so-called “RNC Welcoming Committee” had a large cache of weapons on hand for their “peaceful anti-war demonstration” plans in St. Paul last week. The weapons were crude & low-tech, but they were potentially lethal. Thankfully, these people are so stupid and so narcissistic the authorities were able to infiltrate their ranks well in advance.
I like Palin, and might vote GOP if she was on the top of the ticket. Should she wake up in the VP mansion.. there will be a note under her pillow dispatching her to NRA rallies to boost enlistment of goy boys to die for Israeli expansionism.
Sorry.;..the Neocons and Tel Aviv are still running the Republican Party… Palin is a NON ISSUE>… and will not receive my vote.
I agree with Jack thomsen. This is an old story documented from many centuries ago in historical treatises such as “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.” While we on the Left have always been for pacifism and non-aggresion (we were even against the unprovoked war against the German people and invasion of Germany in the 1940′s) at times, as Sartre and Marcuse taught us, it has been necessary to resort to resistance and “necessary violence” as my comrades had to in St. Paul last week, before they were brutally assaulted and silenced.
TO: All
RE: Idiots In the Open….
….FIRE FOR EFFECT!
I guess either Javelin (1) never noticed or (2) a controlled-substance-induced-amnesia….
…the demented ravings of a character on PJM during the DNC convention in Denver talking about the coming ‘civil war’. That it has already begun.
Obviously SOMEONE thinks there’s a fight going on SOMEWHERE. And if one person HERE thinks it. It would seem logical that a number of others who aren’t here are of the same opinion.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. About ‘trusting and kind’….
First off…
….any rational Christian would put their trust in Christ before putting it in YOU.
Secondly….
….kindness is a virtue to be bestowed upon those who are worthy of it. You don’t seem to qualify….at this point in your spiritual development.
Look on it as ‘tough love’.
Israeli expansionism? How about mere survival?
I prescribe a good dose of memritv and jihadwatch as a reality check as to the situation in tne middle east.
Of course, not everyone is interested in reality, so this suggestion will most likely fall on deaf ears.
TO: Beth
RE: Hmmmmmm
I’m sorry if you misunderstood my previous communication.
Aurora is leasing the water FROM the farmers, ranchers and municipalities of the Arkansas River basin. Aurora is situated immediately EAST of Denver, in the Platte River basin. About 100 miles north of the Arkansas River.
Then there is the City Council of Parker, Colorado—an upscale bedroom community—about 10 miles south of Aurora. They approved a development of 9000 houses. And then told the Public Works/Water people to go out and find the water.
I’m sure you do, as the other day another person from California was complaining about how the metropolitan centers had squeezed out the rural areas in the political/governmental realm.
It’s not just water. There’s money too. Case in point here in Colorado. US 50 runs the east-west length of the state. It passes through Pueblo. In the last 30 years it has not seen a major repair or improvement.
Why? Because US 50 does not serve Denver.
In the mean time, Denver is doing it’s own version of the Bostonian ‘Big Dig’, but without the tunneling under water.
Furthermore, disabled children outside of Denver are not getting as much support anymore. Seems more of the money is going the the Denver metroplex.
The Californian issues with illegals will be a factor. Indeed. The issue has already caused several severe problems, as I’ve noticed over the last 10 years. What was it that caused Orange County to consider declaring bankruptcy?
But you start talking about natural resouces, i.e., taking water from one area and arbitrarily giving it to another….because it has political clout that the Supremes cut away from another group to give to them, you’re talking something akin to ‘taxation without representation’.
We’re talking a REAL war. And the farmers and ranchers know how to use explosives, as well as rifles. They just need a bit of organization, leadership, staff-work, training and motivation. The last item will come by itself. The others, from their own ranks of those who have served this country in the military.
The city-folk don’t stand a chance……
The only way to avert THIS particular disaster scenario is a return of The Great Compromise to the state-level legislative bodies.
And Chief Justice Earl Warren will go down in history as one of the worst to ever stand at the summit of judicial power.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
As an observant Jew AND a feminist, a woman who is against Jew hatred AND woman hatred,who pro-choice AND pro-Israel, I have no vote-both candidates stink.
Thinking that women should be excited about a female vice presidential candidate who is anti-choice, is like expecting Jews to be exited about a Jewish candidate who is who is anti-Israel. (Sadly there are plenty of Jews and women who WOULD be exited about such candidates)
Dear Marion L.,
First of all, I appreciate your civility in writing – a couple of “jerks” lurking around here could learn quite a bit from you.
I have no problem with “surrogates” (or however one wishes to name then) speaking “on behalf of” a candidate…it’s not unusual, as you say…THESE choices ARE unusual, just a bit on the cynical side, seeing as how hard he “dissed” Hillary during the primaries.
Ms. Clinton, to my understanding, has told Obama (in effect, my interpretation) “go fight your own fight,” AND RIGHTLY SO!
To “iammefrommiami” (Miami must be great this time of year!),
Please provide me background on which you base the claim Palin is “anti-Israel.” I have seen photos of her in her office in which she has an (albeit small) Israeli flag behind her desk…which would make me wonder “why”, were she in fact anti-Israel, which I doubt. Thanks.
Dear “iammefrommaimi”, Sorry, I forgot another “problematic” thought I wanted to pose:
Obama has gained support from Louis Farrakhan and Hamas (AMONG OTHER other Islamic terrorist bodies).
Therefore, though you DO say, “both candidates stink”…I would have thought that YOU (“an observant Jew AND a feminist, a woman who is against Jew hatred AND woman hatred”) would be MORE TROUBLED by Obama.
Can you please explain? Thanks.
BMoon;
“The gas chambers of Auschwitz were the ultimate consequence of a theory that man is nothing but the consequence of heredity and environment-or as the Nazis liked to say, of ‘blood and soil.’ I’m absolutely convinced that the gas chambers of Auschwitz, Treblinka and Maidanek were ultimately prepared, not in some ministry or other Berlin, but rather in the desks and lecture halls of nihilistic scientists and philosophers.”
I agree to the point of absolutely convinced.
My question is-who funded & owned these scientists & philosophers? I believe them to be families of the Elite Secret Societies. The Bank Cartels & Corporations who privately (slowly being exposed) control western civilizations (America included) politics & all it’s precious institutions. They are founders of Marxism Communism, absolute socialism, left-right, red-blue, liberal-conservative, democrats-republicans etc. It’s a chess game they always play & love to play. They create two rivals as to pin one against the other to the point of major warfare between nations-civil wars within nations-civil unrest within nations. That is what their doing in America. The idea is to cause havoc amongst the people as they argue over social ills (inventions of the Elitists) such as the Republicans & democrats are proposing or discrediting. While people are preoccupied with these differences to the point of real anger, these same Elites are free (with little disturbance) to manufacture the environment they covet so much-ultimate power/One World Government under the guise of Globalization. The United States is now Governed by Corporate America. Corporations are Governed by the Elitists.
While they (by design) secretly created the environment of a civilian cultural warfare in America, also breaking down the economy & of course indebting it (don’t forget…they invented & control the Federal Reserves Treasury), they are quietly hoping for a civil war in America. When America beats itself-up to a pulp, they can send in a powerful secret army to impose martial law. By then a world wide depression is in place. What better time for the Elites to impose their will on every individual here on earth- then to put in place a NWO economic system (blue print complete & ready to serve)& they will rule with an iron Fist. The blue print was completed-not in the White House-nor the Senate-nor the House of Commons-but rather in the desks and lecture halls of nihilistic Secretive Elitists & their agents. Now they continue to work & wait for the fruit of their labour-complete destruction of a once lovely thing we had-liberty in a sovereign nation.
I do not promote a civil war-nor is a civil war to be certain-but a NWO is for certain because it is prophesied.
“Dear “shocked!”,
Are you a tinfoil-cap street-corner babbler, or can you please either document proof for your premise or at least articulate CLEARLY and FULLY just WHO this is, as I find your words – “…the Elite Secret Societies. The Bank Cartels & Corporations… woefully insufficient.
But you DO raise my interest!
Let ME interest YOU and other to watch a 2-part 10 min (2 times 5 minutes) video of related, yet contrarian, matter…thanks!
http://www.thepeoplescube.com/red/viewtopic.php?t=2281
Underlying all this simmering under the surface is the lefts embrace of multiculturalism since the 60′s. We are no longer Americans, we are sub groups to be targeted for victimization seminars on how to best claim victimhood from a long past wrong. When we became sub groups, our American culture splintered with each group having their own version of America. Instead of celebrating what’s right with America and what we have in common, multiculturalism made us distinct from one another with each trying to claim it’s share of the pie. The result is where we stand now. Ethnicities vote in blocks and the angloamericans who populated this New World (from the Indians) are the evil ones and as such half blame themselves and vote that way, and the other half vote for themselves as it should be. I have had thoughts of late on this civil war issue. The Red states would be victorious but none of us would win. I agree with many in here that it will be the left that instigates it as their behavior the past eight years has shown. When republicans disagree with issues, they write letters and complain loudly. When liberals disagree, they look to government to solve it, i.e. courts (same sex marriage, illegal immigration) and legislation (fairness doctrine). At some point in time, the left in this country will corrupt the constitution through the courts and by legislation that the only way to restore it will be through armed action. That may be a hundred years from now but it’s coming.
For some reason this blog seems to be for more than one political party than the other.
If the intention was to show both parties with equal negatives/positives then “my opinion” is that is did not do this.
But if the intention was just to voice your personal opinion of the current state of affairs then there is no problem with it at all.
Shocked,
Conspiracy theories such as you mention are fantasies for gnostic narcissists with emotional needs for easy answers and to feel like they are in-the-know. That was not what neither I, nor Victor Frankl were even remotely referring to.
Phyllis,
This intellectual battle that has been continuing for over two hundred years is indeed heating up considerably. The real problem and danger of our times is that free speech and free exchange of ideas has been severely stifled by the Left, especially in the Academy and the Media. Conservatives have been effectively silenced in these two arenas with a few exceptions. Without Fox News there would be no mainsteam source for anything approaching fair and balanced. Activist judges incessantly silence fair debate by decreeing leftist social agendas upon the unwilling public.
Stanley Kurtz wrote about how the Academy , especially the elitist ones, serve as “the key generator of our polarized political and cultural battles. They cultivate extremist, one-sided, intolerant Leftism, Anti-Americanism, Anti-Christian bigotry, and disdain for western civilization and tradition. Conservative professors are routinely denied tenure and positions, while their intellectual cohorts are shouted down, silenced and threatened by extremist Leftist and Islamic groups during speaking engagements.
Kurtz writes that only a return to open and equitable dialogue and debate, and of the “old-fashioned liberal values that makes this possible, “gives us a shot at social peace.” trouble is, the inmates have taken over the asylum at most universities.
Chuck,
Thanks for the further explanation.
What do you think about reinstituting the Great Compromise at the Federal level?
Secondly, don’t you think that the forces of law and order will side with the courts rather then the ranchers? After all, our police/sheriffs are sworn to uphold existing law, not law as they wish it would be. I’m also rather cynical because I see how little effort most law enforcement agencies are making to help support the border patrol.
The Californian experience with illegals is a nightmare. My daughter was at a funeral a couple of weeks ago for a young man with four children-killed in front of his home by our lovely Mexican “immigrants”. The majority of the crime in my area is the result of the influx from south of the border. And McCain goes around calling them “children of god”. I’d like to have him live in/next to the barrio for awhile without any police protection and have him get back to me on that.
What was it that caused Orange County to consider declaring bankruptcy?
Poor investment by the County treasurer with no oversight (foolish!). However, LA county spends 1 billion per year on illegals (education, incarceration, medical care). Two thirds of the state budget deficit would be wiped out if we stopped handing out freebies to Mexican citizens.
Protecting our borders is one thing I think would be worth a shooting war.
Relax Bmoon,
There’s no need for hysteria. Your beginning to sound like Javelin when he disagrees with someone. When Victor Frankl mentions “in the desks of nihilistic scientists & philosophers,” he is partly right. What i am saying is that these scientists & philosopher’s are properties of the Elites. I truly believe a NWO will take effect. The Biblical book of Revelation says so. Little did i know until a while ago that the path leading to it isn’t by chance, rather it is by design-in the works for over two centuries.
Edwallis,
“Tinfoil-cap street-corner babbler.” I have no time for it nor am interested. Even with the truth i believe to possess. Thorough research from a variety of sources has provided me with a healthy dose of real knowledge. It is a knowledege not for everyone. Every being has the right to believe as they choose. Since you have shown a little interest, here are a few websites with many links. Take it for what it is.
http://www.henrymakow.com
http://www.infowars.com + http://www.prisonplanet.com
Christian G.Rakovsky was a high member of the Elitists. During an interrogation by Stalin’s secret police, he gave up many of the hidden secrets so as not to be executed. Here is a copy of that interrogation:
http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/red-symphony-html
Sorry Edwallis-here’s a correction:
http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/red-symphony.html
to their credit, Democrats condemn racism, sexism, homophobia and poverty; support women’s reproductive rights, including birth control and non-abstinence-based sex education, equal pay for equal work, big government, and independence from foreign oil
nonsense. Democrats worship power, nothing else. Racism is fine as long as it can be harnessed to generate more votes from guilty whites and blacks aggrieved over illusory discrimination. If Democrats opposed sexism and homophobia they would be violently opposed to any accommodation with Islam. Independence from foreign oil? That is laughable since they have done everything possible to increase our dependence on foreign oil.
At the end of the day, all Democrats want is to be in power so they can control other’s lives and improve their own. Nothing more than that. They would sell our country to the highest bidder in a heartbeat if they thought it would benefit them with more power. We have been witnesses to the spectacle of a President of the United States doing just that with the Chinese and, as he was leaving office, selling pardons. Typical Democrat behavior.
War? Possibly. Every now and then one must fumigate a house to get rid of the roaches.
TO: iconoclast
RE: True
And don’t forget how they had no qualms against trotting out and disparaging Reagan and Cheney over their homosexual children.
The point being is that Democrats are the epitome of hypocrisy.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Where there is no religion, hypocrisy become good taste.]
TO: Beth
RE: A Better Understanding
Thanks for the further explanation. — Beth
Your welcome.
RE: The Great Compromise
I was unaware that the US Senate was no longer elected based on geographic region. When did that change?
RE: The Forces of Law & Order
They might. Just as they did during the Colorado Coalfield War of 1914. Took federal forces directed by President Woodrow Wilson to stop the fighting; between the state militia and the coal miners. I am of the opinion that the coal miners were winning at the time.
Then again, I recall stories about the Depression where game wardens in poor communities would have a bowl of ‘beef’ stew offered them by a family living off the land and not mention that it reminded of them of venison. I think they wanted to keep body and spirit together.
Could be something to that. But I’m not sure exactly what.
My point is that even law enforcement officers have a conscience. Furthermore, I point out that the oath of a commissioned officer in the United States Armed Forces does NOT include the phrased, “….and obey the orders of the President of the United States and the officers appointed over me.”
Interesting thought in that….eh?
RE: The California Illegals Situation
Definitely bad. We’re experiencing similar things here in Pueblo, Colorado. And the law-enforcement has trouble trying to figure out who the ‘killer’ is, when they ‘accidentally’ left their wallet with drivers license at the scene of the broad-daylight murder.
RE: Children? Yes. Whose? Well….that’s Questionable.
From the Christian perspective, every living soul is a part of God’s creation.
However, only those who have truly accepted Christ as their savior are ‘Children of God’. But keep in mind that a loving Father WILL ‘discipline’ His children. Just because someone is ‘saved’ doesn’t mean they don’t have any ‘problems’.
As I recall it had to do with your comment.
Considering what we are hearing from the drug cartel in our neighbors to the South, it may come to that. But there will be considerable more subtlety to it than sending a latter-day General Pershing in pursuit of the current version of Pancho Villa.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Power always thinks... that it is doing God's service when it is violating all his laws. -- John Adams]
Phyllis, first I hope you are feeling better.
Second, with all due respect, I fear a civil war if Obama is elected. The majority of his supporters will never be happy under any circumstances — they live in the culture of woundology. They will seek to cut down good people at every turn, making everything a racial attack against them, change our laws, not just policies they claim to be against, such as the war in Iraq. Our system will never be the same.
TO: Lauren
RE: Well….Actually….
And, all thinks considered, even the ‘circumstance’ of his winning the ‘election’. After all, it is all too true that….
Regards,
Chuck(le)
they live in the culture of woundology. They will seek to cut down good people at every turn, making everything a racial attack against them, change our laws, not just policies they claim to be against, such as the war in Iraq. Our system will never be the same.
We have a situation bordering on the truly fantastic. The ONLY prudent and responsible thing to do is for us all to stop assuming we understand Islam and, instead, join together to call for a national consensus on Islam.
[QUOTE]Never before in history has one civilization allowed large numbers of those who come from an alien, and immutably hostile situation, to settle deep within that first civilization’s borders. Never before have the members of one civilization failed to investigate, and even willfully refused to investigate, or to listen to those who warn about, the consequences for all non-Muslims of the belief-system of Islam.
In history, the phenomenon of the Barbarians at the Gates is hardly new. Those barbarians lay siege; if they win, they enter in triumph. Should they lose, the advanced civilization survives. But never before have the gates been opened, to an entering force that has not even been identified or understood.
Never before have the inhabitants of the by-now vulnerable city made efforts not to recognize, or realize, what they have done, and what they have undone. That demographic intrusion shows no signs of diminishing.
The systematic building of mosques and madrasas, paid for by Saudi Arabia, everywhere in the Western world, helps to make the conduct of Muslim life easier. Western populations have been trained to make much of “celebrating diversity” and “promoting difference” and constructing, on a base of militant but unexamined pluralism, an edifice of legal rights and entitlements.
These rights, these entitlements, this militant pluralism are exploited by Muslims who do not believe in pluralism. Nor do they accept the individual rights of conscience and free speech, the legal equality of men and women, and of religious and racial minorities, recognized, for example, in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
Their current claim to support pluralism is based on the need to protect, and increase the power of, the Muslim umma, or Community, within the West, until such time as that umma no longer needs to pretend to have any interest in Western pluralism and Western values.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/004628.php
[/QUOTE]
If Muslims are to be welcomed, let’s welcome them. If they are not to be welcomed then let’s not welcome them. If they are to be welcomed but only with certain conditions, then let’s do that.
Right now there is too much jockeying for position without knowing what the facts are.
And this variance in the view of Islam and Muslims is the source of the greatest division in this country. Walid Phares says this misunderstanding was prompted by Islamists misleading Western Academics in the 1970′s.
If that is true, it suggests the brilliance and the subtlety of the Islamist’s long range plans.
TO: All
RE: Did I Say THAT?
” —
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they live in the culture of woundology. They will seek to cut down good people at every turn, making everything a racial attack against them, change our laws, not just policies they claim to be against, such as the war in Iraq. Our system will never be the same.”
Am I REALLY that ‘drunk’? How very odd…..
…or maybe it is something else at play here.
P.S. I’ve captured this thread in order to keep thinks on the up and up, so to say…..
Canadian Geezer, you’re ill-informed. We don’t need socialized, universal health care in the U.S. Not only is it not affordable, it is unnecessary. The cities of the United States have clinics and hospitals that care for the indigent, the disadvantaged and the ones who just don’t make enough to carry on a monthly HMO bill. When I was in college, I was one of the latter. I got my birth control pills, pelvic exams and physicals at these health clinics. At first, the visits were free because I was a full-time student. Later, when I was a working student, I paid maybe $10 per visit, and that was it. That was in California over 20 years ago. I have 2 brothers today who get free medical care in Arizona because they only work part-time. Obama’s health care scare is bogus. The U.S. takes care of its own — it always has, it always will. Don’t get fooled by all that baloney. Canadian Geezer, get real.
I believe we are headed to armed civil conflict much sooner rather than later.
Democrats are hell bent on pushing socialistic principals on us in spite of all the wars we have fought against those principals. Remember the Nazi and Mussolini association. They were socialists. The modern Democrat is nothing more than a Nazi.
Government actions that continue to erode the constitution whether through regulation, courts or just plain bureacratic intrusion, are why the founders expressly gave us the 2nd amendment. To fight off intrusive government. And what about the Democrats that want us to give up our national sovernty, pay American taxes to the UN.
Democrats that abuse the cnstitution and continue to attempt to rewrite it are the targets
We call it the “War Between the States” or the “War of Northern Aggression” or “Mr. Lincoln’s War”. A civil war is a war to control the existing government. The War of Southern Independence was not driven by a desire of the Southern Confederacy to take over Washington, D.C., but rather to gain independence for those Southern States which chose to pursue their own way of life.
In response to your question, I believe that if McCain wins the Blue states will start a so-called “Civil War,” but it will not be a conventional war, nor a war in the streets, but a war in the courts with liberal Federal judges and SC Justices that will turn the U.S. into a completely socialistic nation in short order.
If, on the other hand, Obama wins, we will have more conservative bloggers complaining from the comfort of their homes rather than marching in the streets. We conservatives just aren’t into that.
Faultline USA, You are clearly an ‘bot fraud. Your post is neither funny/ironic nor informative. Please stay at Kos.
“…to gain independence for those Southern States which chose to pursue their own way of life.”
Unfortunately, “their own way of life” meant enslaving black people. The Civil War was about “States’ Rights;” I agree. However, the specific “right” those states were fighting to defend was the right to treat thousands of fellow human beings as property with no rights at all.
Strangely, the same “states’ right” that the secessionists claimed was being infringed upon by the Federal government was made the law of the land in the Confederate constitution. All members of the Confederacy, including territories and newly-admitted states, were required by law specifically to accept and protect “the institution of negro slavery.” Not property ownership in general, but the peculiar institution of negro slavery. This effectively banned states from exercising the very right the secessionists were seceding over – the right to decide whether to allow slavery. The people who wrote that constitution knew that if states were allowed to opt out of slavery, the Confederacy would disintegrate.
So you can talk all you want about the high principles of the Confederate “founding fathers,” but ultimately the purpose of secession and the Civil War was to protect the institution of chattel slavery. It was all about money and race – not patriotism.
Let me add to that. For many Confederates, the Civil War WAS about patriotism – loyalty to their homes, states, etc. In my opinion, this proves the point about elites and extremists being dangerous. It was the Southern elites – the so-called “Slave Power” along with its supporting media and political machine – that spun the slavery issue first as a states’ rights issue and then as a survival issue. The mass of Southerners didn’t just spontaneously come to believe that the move toward abolition was anti-American or that the Federal government was a looming threat to their states, homes, and families. They were told these things, constantly and for many years, by their politicians, intellectuals, and newspapers. These elites successfully framed the issues for maximum effect. By 1861, a debatable principle had become for many people an unquestionable right – guaranteed by the Constitution and paid for by the blood of their patriot ancestors. We know the result – the “rich man’s war, poor man’s fight.”
On the other hand, let’s not forget about people like John Brown – who pretty much thought the Republic should burn rather than tolerate slavery. Think about that: an idealist who “loved” his country so much that he’d rather see it destroyed than suffer its imperfections. A humanitarian who was willing to kill any number of “guilty” people to save his chosen victims. An extremist who was openly or covertly supported by many in the Northern intellectual and political elite and lionized by the abolitionist media. The abolitionists eventually got their war. I think Brown would have enjoyed it.
I guess the point is, extremists will use you if they can. So don’t get in bed with them even if they claim to have your best interested in mind. See what the far left has done to the Democrat party. Remember what the brush with Christian fundamentalism did to the Republicans. We have to figure out a way to put these vocal nut jobs back where they belong – somewhere out on the fringes, away from the decision-making process. The center must hold. Don’t let the fanatics tear it down.
Quote ,
” I bet they do not view the terrorists as “perverting the Islamic faith” (Obama said this in his interview with O’Reilly) but rather, as expressing it all too well. On this very point, (whether there is a “good” and “peaceful” Islam or not), our Republic will either stand or fall ”
With this comment not only are you playing into the hands of terrorists that really do want to attack america you are also giving them what they want most and that is a war based on religion and whos religion is good or bad.
Islamic terrorists want to kill americans for a lot of reasons, this include pure hatred of our freedoms and the freedom of women, and men of all backgrounds to be treated equally and fairly with out outcasting or punishing people for their religious and cultural beliefs, there are many stories in the muslim world of women being killed because they do not conform or they break some insane law meant to oppress them.
but some also want to hurt americans because of some actions that america has taken in the middle east, although some people are not willing to admit it, american foreign policy has not always been guided by our principles and sometimes the US has not acted in ways that we could be proud of. mostly this is due to more incomptence rather than some actual attempt at being bad but nontheless it does not not help our cause in trying to make friends. and making friends is a good idea, not because it should be american policy to make friends for the sake of it but because it is very clear that the more friends america has the better of we will be at getting what we want which usually beniefts the world as a whole .
so i caution people that try to paint all muslims as evil or out to hurt americans , there are good, decent muslims just like tere are good decent christaians and on both sides there are those who use both the bible and the koran to justify some action they are takin. in the case of muslims this is suicide bombers and in the case of christains , abortion clinic bombers.
americas war should be aganist the radical islamists not the moderate or liberal muslims who constitute a majority of the muslim world. we need moderates to speak out against extremism and we need moderates help to once and for all destroy the influence of radical islamists,
we will not win over moderates and liberal muslims by insulting their faith and i hope that is clear to all who really want to see the best for america as we go forward in the future.
The US resembles a putrid, festering toilet clogged with 40 years of corporate greed,and liberal cultural excrement;it’s time to flush it!
Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.
It doesn’t have to end in the nightmare scenarios discussed on this thread.
The answer is to set aside our narrow partisan, regional, and special interests and put our country first.
There is only one ticket in this election that is advocating that approach, and that have walked the walk as well as talked the talk in their personal life-long experience: Senator John McCain and Governor Sarah Palin.
Yes, I have no doubt that if they win and the Obama/Biden ticket doesn’t, the supporters of the other ticket will throw a tantrum. We’ll just have to deal with that as a nation as best as we can should it come to that. Threats are unlikely to sway anyone’s votes, and are actually more likely to be counterproductive.
The concerted media attack I’m seeing has gone beyond being ludicrous – the vast majority of the dead tree media and network anchors are unabashedly spewing outright lies and raw hatred. They aren’t even trying to pretend they’re “unbiased” anymore. We’re starting to see just how deep the rabbit hole really runs. Wake up people, look around at what is going on – or this is going to lead us into an honest-to-God civil war.
Rumor is – from some people I know that dabble in such matters – is that someone is spending $$$ at close to 2 million dollars per hour, 24×7, attacking Sarah Palin in an attempt to take her down or get her out of the race. Bonus paid if you take out her family as collateral damage. Extra bonus if you get it on video.
This whole thing appears to be driven and orchestrated by some SERIOUSLY BIG money. This sudden media frenzy is something that the Justice Department might really want to take a good hard look at. And money wise – this whole thing smacks of being funded by terrorists.
There are some very liberal people with offshore accounts that are doing VERY well at the moment. I’ll just suggest that maybe the folks in Homeland Security might want to take notice of some of the cash flows happening right here in the USA, and those as are spending and those as are “raking it in”.
We are in the middle of a outright war, whether you realize it or not. You may think this sounds paranoid, but anyone that wants to dig a little can see that events are being orchestrated on a global level – all directed at bringing down AMERICA this election. There is a war being fought here, people, and we’re going to lose it unless people wake up.
Democrats and Republicans alike are “just Americans” to the people waging this war, and being liberal isn’t going to save anyone, regardless of what they might believe about that.
There are two glaring differences between democrats and republicans. There are lots of small ones but really two large ones that have played out over the last 8 years. For the last 8 years, republicans have been fighting Islamic Fascists. For the last 8 years, democrats have been fighting George W. Bush. For the last 8 years, republicans have been defending faith. For the last 8 years, democrats have been defending Islam. When one party sees the real enemy and fights that enemy, while the other sees it’s political opponent as the only real enemy, then you have a divide that cannot be overcome. The old adage a house divided comes to mind. Before we totally defeat the real enemies of freedom abroad, the real enemies of freedom in our own land must be defeated………….
Mr. Neher,
nice to see your good at self righteous and childish cheerleading. But it was your idol who walks hand in hand wiht the rulers of Saudi Arabia and constantly assures us that Islam is a religion of peace. As well as attacking the a country that was no threat to us and not jihadist. But don’t let the facts get in the way of your juvenile right wing tirade. The real enemies of freedom indulge in the same sort of lies and hype that your post displayed.
“Democrats are hell bent on pushing socialistic principals on us in spite of all the wars we have fought against those principles. Remember the Nazi and Mussolini association. They were socialists. The modern Democrat is nothing more than a Nazi.”
You are the Nazi. Shut up please, okay you ***??!!
Normally, I view feminists with a great degree of suspicion. I generally assume them to be along the same lines as blacks that want reparations for slavery. This was, however, an excellent article on an important issue that does not get enough face time. It was written very diplomatically; I am a far right-wing Republican with liberal tendencies and I wasn’t offended by your characterization of the “Red” culture, which left me wondering whether you’re one of us. You correctly noted that Governor Palin is a feminist, albeit a different kind, instead of denigrating her for having divergent views.
If we were all as accomodating and civil as you, we would not have the fractious, schismatic problems we have today. My coworkers are from inner-city Detroit, but we can have lively discussions on politics, with them proponing liberal policies and I conservative right-wing ones, simply because we don’t take things personally and are genuinely interested in hearing each other out. If that is possible, anything is.
You have my respect.
Well, the financial industry might be collapsing now. If we spiral into a serious recession, you can expect mutual recriminations over that, too, upping the probabilities of civil war. Who knows what will really happen? Not me. Probably not civil war, but it’s happened before and it can happen again. One thing seems very clear though and it is that never in living memory, probably not since the last Civil War, has there been two such completely different political views dividing the country. Sure there was division and political unrest in the 1960s, but most of the unrest was on the part of kids. The attitudes of those kids now dominates the political sympathies of almost half of the country. Most dems aren’t radicalized at all, but they are led by radicals and it doesn’t take that many radicals in power to start a real war. Look at the Russian Revolution
The mere idea of this being discussed is both refreshing and terrifying in the same moment. Refreshing because many individuals are recognizing the lack of unity currently being displayed within our wonderful country and as such may act to walk a step closer to the middle and ultimately compromise. Terrifying because so many Americans continue to firmly believe in the “it can’t happen to me mentality”. Let me tell you something folks… I have been in one civil conflict or another for the past ten years, so I have a little bit of experience to back up the following line of thought. In ALL of the countries in which I have served, the overwhelming majority of John Q public never believed it could happen to them. As some other bloggers have stated the memories of WWII and the devestation surrounding those conflicts have all but faded into “a bad dream” by many members of the public who cannot grasp the magnitude of the type of enviornment a true civil war in the United States would present. Every reader or writer on this blog should get down on their knees and thank whatever diety they worship for the utopia in which we live because the alternative is likley akin to a painting from Dantes Inferno. Alarmist? possibly, but it is in these kinds of discussions where I would love to be proven wrong. Unfortunately I fear that we sit teetering atop a precipce to which such a fall into utter chaos is all too possible. Hopefully I’m just some crazy pessimistic survivalist nutjob!!
A 2nd Civil war is coming to America soon.
When one side uses the political system to win there causes but is over ruled by 1 to 9 judges. When laws are put in place to prevent people from voicing their moral views. When the other side does not want equal rights, but want to have all the rights (We got to this place by being willing to compromise and they aren’t). When all options to have your values represented are taken away, then there is only one option left.
We do not want to go down this road. This is not a movie. It may not be the other guy who dies; it could be me or my loved ones it could be you and yours.
I see the start of this happening by the assasination of each side’s leaders. For the liberals I ask: If a far rightist kills a left leader/s how would you feel? What would you do?
And you Conservatives I ask: If a far leftist kills a conservative leader/s how would you feel? What would you do?
Sides are being taken and lines are being drawn. Be ready because what is coming will make the first Civil war look like a small battle.
The only way out of this is for both sides to compromise.
Heaven help us if we don’t!!!
Review “Truth”‘s opinion above.
Then I’ll state: I can’t wait for it to begin.
Would not suprise me if the USA ends up in another bloody civil war. The seeds would be planted if a socialist leaning US Senator gets elected. Remember the majority of people in this country are center/right and will not accept a pro socialist US Senator as President. He could be the lightning rod that could ignite a new bloody civil war with his positions.
I think there is a lot of truth to this idea of a civil war. We are in fact becoming further and further apart.
Me and most of my neighbors are McCain supporters, but the “seedy” element in our neighborhood supports Obama. Of course, they don’t display Obama signs in their yard. Instead, they have repeatedly vandalized or stolen the signs of me and my neighbors.
I am really sick to death of all the nastiness of this campaign and particularly the Liberals and their nasty tactics. I am fed up with it all to the point, I really wish they would just go away and live in their gunless, religionless land with wealth redistribution and “nanny” state control. I am tired of it.
You know, in the end who’d win. Which group do you think belongs to the NRA?
Deliberate manipulation of the Global Free Market Economy Financial Markets and designed orchestration of global corporate rescues and bailouts have been designed and implemented to shift more wealth to us Republicans and our global supporters only, maximize profits & prosperity for American citizens that are active Republican Party members nationally, and our like minded allies globally, before and after our plan for a 21st century civil war in the United States and coming war with Iran.
This activity is purposely designed to benefit active American Republican Party members nationally and our like minded, New World Order allies globally ONLY.
It will consolidate and secure our global financial power and hegemony once and for all, within the next 4 years.
If you want to live, if you want to profit and prosper too, you must become an active Republican party member and supporter now.
Space is limited in the tax payer financed life sustaining underground cities that have been prepared for Republicans ONLY, in advanced of planned future events that will temporarily necessitate their use.
The choice is yours. Soon there will be a “surge” in national and global events that will permanently secure Republican Party member hegemony until the end of time! Choose the good life, join us, vote and BE Republican.
Thank you.
“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.” – Beloved American Founding Father, Freemason, Nephilim – Illuminati, & 3rd President Thomas Jefferson
I come from a long line of secret society members. One that became divided when secrets were beginning to be sold for profit, unstead of uplifting the soles of all mankind. You might want to revisit Faust, and if you are at any ‘important’ level within your group you would not be spouting off on some blog. And Nephlims are a suborder of energies (most people would consider them angels) I won’t waste advanced physics on someone who in my opinion faces iniquity. If you know any of the true secrets, you are the one who is going to be left behind, along with all the others that think they have found ‘technological’ ways (financed of course by those you seem to worship) to beat the natural laws of order. Whichever way the election goes, it will not affect these laws. Justice, equity, tolerance, yes and love–which are the truest secrets and the hardest levels to reach–will be the measure of every man and woman.
I am aware of the processes of which you speak, but I will going on practicing the true principals, and I will die to defend them in order to ever become a participant in what you profesize.
three little links in the chain.
riots might happen if obama losses or even if he wins what a world!!!!!!
http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/police-prepare-for-unrest-2008-10-21.html
loss of first amendment:
funny dont see them going after Farrakhan in same way wonder why???????????
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2008-10-22-irs-catholic-obama_N.htm
http://cbs2chicago.com/local/nation.of.islam.2.843209.html
loss of frist amendment2:
use of force even before getting in office!!!!!!!!
http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=77825
A Democratic win, will force us into a war. Freedom, or Socialism. That, is the choice.
Freedom, isn’t FREE. It asks a price, of all of us. Are we willing to pay it? That is the big question.
If Obama is elected, it won’t immeadiately be obvious, what he’s truly up to. That will take some time.
When it comes, even his loyal supporters are going to be shocked. I think when the shooting starts, you’ll find “ex-Liberals” in the fight to return Freedom to America.
It’s not about race, or who’s right or wrong about political correctness, and all that garbage.
Bottom line is, it’s about continuing to be a free nation.
That is why there will be a war. Pure and simple.
Those mentioning that law enforcement and the military will be against us, think again. The military is already pretty much against the government.
And while I can’t speak for the police where you all live, I’m pretty familiar with ours. On the day they try to take our firearms, or force their Marxism on us, the ditch will be full of badges. And the cops will be standing with us, against the government.
This has to happen anyway. It’s long overdue. The Constitution must be restored to it’s rightful place, as the Supreme Law of the land.
The right of the States to self-govern must be restored. And the Federal Government chopped WAY back in size and function.
We’ll eliminate the Federal Reserve and the IRS as well. Big banks and big money have had their time. But, it’s time it was over.
Meanwhile, until the shooting starts, there is a lot we can do to deprive Mr. Obama his funds to spread around. On April 15th, don’t file a return. Tell the IRS to get lost. They gonna arrest 50, 100, 200 million people? I don’t think so.
I was taught that if you need a helping hand, look at the end of your arm.
I’m not funding lifestyles for couch potatoes any more. Or supporting children that I didn’t bring into this world.
We do not owe these people. And I’m sick of screwed up Liberals imposing their guilt on me. It’s time for that to be over as well.
I ignore most of their stupid laws anyway. I think what I want, call me a hate criminal. Big deal. I’m not politically correct. And very proud of it. I’d recommend that anyone trying to come “get” me over any of these “offenses” think it over. Carefully.
The First Ammendment works fine, exactly as written. It needs no further “clarification” by activist judges or lawyers. In fact, the entire Constitution was written simply enough that we don’t need any legal help in understanding it.
It’s just come time to put America back to rights as the world’s greatest and most free nation in the world.
This election, and it’s outcome may just be the spark needed.
Nothing is good about war. But sometimes it’s the only way to clean the house. And we have a ton of politicians that are not going to willingly give up their power and wealth. We’ll have to persuade them another way.
Your views are ridiculous. Bush did steal the election with the help of his brother. You talk about liberals being enraged by this and say nothing about the culture of hate and intolerance that right wing talk show hosts from Limbaugh and O’Reilly to Hannitty and Coulter have been spouting for the last two decades. You talk about Clinton getting away with assaults. Huh? What assaults? He committed adultery which last I checked is not a crime. And he was impeached for it. You say nothing about the lies this Bush creature and his cronies told that got this country into an unnecessary war and killed untold numbers of innocent Iraquis and killed or crippled thousands of mostly economic ‘draftees’ in this country. If a civil war does happen it will be because the right wing in this country won’t be able to handle an African American as President and right wing propagandists will continue to stir up hate and intolerance on the airwaves. So long.
if he tries to take my guns there will be a war
Islamic radicals and terrorist have more than proven that when they are protected ( as the carter adminstration made certain of) and Legitamized,,,they take advantage of such protection,legitamization,and mere talk,,,to regroup ,gather in strength,recruit,,and grow. The Carter administration legitamized the PLO and Arafat. Up to Arafats death,,,Arafat and the PLO believed in “suicide bombers” and “Terror Attacks” on ALL Civilians World-wide. Today PLO members have joined Hamas , Hezbollah , and All the other Terrorist Groups,TO DO,,,TERROR OPERATIONS. Giving Islamic Radicalism and Terrorist Groups the upper-hand and merely dealing with them through talks,,,will only give them time to regroup,recruit,grow,and plan More Attacks.
McCain’s Plan to Drill was merely a temporary situation,,,To be used in order to Make America LESS dependent on Foriegn Oil FASTER,,UNTIL more sustainable fuels,,and Green Technology could make it’s way into American Mainstream,,,and at a more afforadable price,,for Americans.
Omama’s plan KEEPS America dependent on foriegn Oil LONGER and benefits foriegn Interest more than it does American.
McCain/Palin’s plan to Streamline Washington,fight corruption,and use current program moneys More Efficiently,,,and use excess money produced to balance the Budget,,was a very feasible plan. It also Did Not include the raising Taxes on Americans.
McCain never said we would stay in Iraq for 50-100 yrs. He said,,we should be ready to,,in order to stay the course. By that I believe he meant that seeing how Iran,Syria,Al Queda,and other Islamic Radicals,WAIT in the wings to pounce on Iraq from all sides,,to destabalize not only Iraq but the entire Islamic World,,,in order that Islamic Radicalism and Hate grows,,,thereby eventually totally encompassing every area it touches,,World-wide. The results of such a thing accuring could be disastrous to every being on the planet. America at this time does not destabilize the Islamic world,,However,,America does destabilize Islamic Radicalism in a attepmt to keep Islamic Radicalism and Terror from Growing.
Some say It has grown,,however that is a false perception. The ants are just coming out from the woodwork.
Obamas plan to just talk and bend to Islamic Radicals needs and wants,,,will not work. Because,,Thier plans are to encompass the earth,,so opening the doorway further for them to Grow and Spread,,is Only a Only opening the doorway to word-wide disaster.
Americas enemies are rejoicing the fact Obama won the election. I believe it’s not because he is a man of color,,but merely the fact that Obama will be a man easily bent to thier will.
Only Time will tell. I hope and pray that I am wrong.
I do not fear war,,,I do not fear much at all as a matter of fact,,,However,,,I am worried about America,,,Because a man who used Class on Class warfare to get elected,,,won. A Fire was lit,,,Let’s all hope it doesn’t grow.
I LOVE My COUNTRY,,,I Love America. Because I do,,,I shall stand behind my Commander In Chief,,,through thick and thin.
Should America need me,,I am at her disposal. God Bless America!!
Oh like Obama didn’t steal the election? His campaign used smoke and mirrors and brainwashed people. They knew how stupid and star struck the American people are. Without the very uneducated, the people who wanted to vote for the first 1/2 black president and the ignorant youth vote, he would have been crushed. Ask most young Obama supporters why they voted for him, and if they are not werewolf liberals, they have answers like “I don’t know, my friends are” or “he is cool” then ask them who Palosi is and you get “Who?”
Wow the democrats must be so proud of the way he got elected.
“fed up” please give examples of the hate of the few radio talk shows and let’s compare that to the hate and intolerance of the hundreds of foaming at the mouth leftists. When did O’Reilly ever say he wanted the Bush daughters raped and murdered?
Try working in the motion picture industry where if they find out you are Republican you will not get work (how tolerant is that from the ones who scream free speech?) I watched a poor craft service guy get fired because a well known actor did not like a Bush sticker he had in his room. (The same bipolar nuts that brainwash America every day in T.V. and movies.)
And the cicil war?… It “IS” coming. Just let Obama try the Natzi national police force he wants.
(Right there with you Savage!)
So Polly can’t quite figure out which side to support huh? The side that thinks that killing 3000 innocent Americans was a good move or those crazy religious fanatics that try to force their beliefs down her throat by knocking on her door-what-maybe twice a year with those nasty little books they carry with them? Tough one Polly.
The division of America is beyond obvious. The “drum beat” of war is sounding louder in both camps although it would seem many are oblivious to it. For myself, I fully support state succession. Although distasteful for obvious reasons, I would accept armed conflict as an inevitable consequence. Economically the U.S. cannot be saved. Economic failure may very well act as the triggering device for the coming conflict. This hopeful belief in American unity under pressure sounds nice but will more than likely fail. The U.S. is not “bulletproof” so to speak. Much of what I have read here is comparable to what was believed prior to the outbreak of our last civil war. Yes, conflict is coming. Exactly what form it will take is unclear. It is at least high enough in probability that it cannot and should not be dismissed outright.
I would not worry about a civil war being started by the liberals ” democrats” fact is they dont have the stomach for it or the courage it takes to fight…..I like to call it the Pussification of the United States!!To conclude, we are on a down hill path at a rapid pace that will eventually move to some type of engagement…I believe it’s time we just split the country up and move on ” just like the russians did “… We are way apart on just about every Issue…By food, guns and ammo….. Steve
Yes, buy food and supplies, that is always a good thing, but be careful about making statements about buying guns. Who do you think you are going to shoot at? No one knows, but do not underestimate democrats, republicans or people in general. People are not simply a party or a label. Those who believe that it is this way will surely lose. There are many common factors to do with the financial system that needs restructuring, unsecured borders, jobs and industry (or lack there of) that are a common problem that everyone needs to tackle because the playing field will be leveled soon enough by these problems. Those who imagine that a civil war would emerge over black and white democratic or republican issues, I believe, are wrong. Maybe we will end up as the ununited states but there are powerful non-violent ways to make this happen. Revolution of the minds through communication will need to take place. An uninformed person who is fearful of the wrong things or just fearful is the most dangerous thing onthe planet. Lets not create fifty states full of these please.
The sad thing is that if a civil war to erupt in the United States, it would very quickly degenerate to the point where battle lines would be drawn up along racial divides. No one likes to say it or think it, but it is true.
I think this divide as describes is way too simplistic. Where are these small towns where all know each other? In this age of the Internet, cable tv, air travel, corporate global travel, feminism, gay rights—where are these towns you speak of? Yes, States’ Rights. This is the issue. But red versus blue is an illusion. The rural and urban are all melded together in this postmodern America.
Its kinda funny, you said when Mccain becomes president that you thought that it would be the beginning of the civil war. Well, Obama is president now and I hope your over your sickness, and if not get up and walk outside and look around. Whether we see it or not, we are at the beginning stages of civil war. Jobs are being lost eveeyday and it almost feels like theres no hope. I believe when we do break out into civil war other countries are gonna take advantage, and maybe start a raid. If I was a president or terrorist in another country, I would wait for that diversion. Think about it.
It seems as though everyone beleives if there was another civil war that the only way it could happen is democrats vs. republicans but think for one minute about the economy and how the national crime rate grows how can we not be sure that it is not citizens vs. government whp will go to battle
Red state – Blue state, what crap! What happened to America?
Look up Thomas Jefferson’s quote concerning watering the tree of liberty; I think he is right and I think it will happen soon.
With the current expansion of the government taking place I am forced to think of the quote by Thomas Payne “The government that governs best is that which governs least.” I also believe that the constitution was so written as to provide the citizenry a remedy for such an expansive tyrany by advocating disposition of the offensive government by force. Thus the purpose of the second ammendment.
Democrats: Selling out our jobs to cheaper slave labor so the rich companies can make a killing and contribute to campaigns just to hold onto power….Hitlery Klinton, Walmart board of directors, where walmart gets cheap chinese products while shafting American companies out of work, undercutting local businesses out of business due to not being able to compete with prices at the same time hiring illegal aliens who will work for less than the average American can afford to live on. They support socialism, which robs those that work to pay for those who dont work, and wont work because they get my money for free. Pelosi lied about impeaching Bush, Obama is continuing these same policies Bush was doing with the wars the democraps lied about ending, they lied about holding anyone accountable for torture, they lied about everything. Obama is continuing the bailouts, robbing us blind, the economy will never be fixed until the “meat” of the economy has jobs to pay the taxes and the bills and the car payments and the mortgages. But no, lets bail out the car companies while they continue to ship our jobs overseas, we give them money and we dont even get a car. If I was to have an ice cream shop, and no one could afford to buy, or didnt even buy my ice cream because they didnt like it, should I go to the government snd demasnd I make everyone pay me anyways? Socialism and nationalizing business is a dead end, does anyone know history anymore? Also, about the second amendment, what part about simple english in conjunction with what the founders wrote to back up the meaning of it, do you not understand? Since when is it up to you to determine how I should live? Would you want me telling you how to live? What not to do, what to do, while I decide to take what you made from work and distribute it to whomever I wish? This is NOT a democracy, this is supposed to be a republic, this is so the 51% of the population doesnt end up tyranizing the other 49%. What is to stop the 51% from voting to erradicate the other 49%? This is why we are supposed to be practicing a Republican form of Limited government, founded on christian principals. And the second amendment is there to also protect the other amendments, as well to get rid of an out of control government.
Republicans: Warmongers and big business panderers, making sure the poor stay in their place. Sending our kids off to die in a war that we were lied into. Ignoring the rule of law, the will of the people. Fascism. Marrying the big business and the government. Most of these scoundrels are from big corporations, does anyone even read someones resume before they vote for these idiots? Then who is the bigger idiots. We have the internet where these things can be researched.
Both parties: Have consistently ignored the will of the people who they are supposed to have permission to do anything at all from. Now, every one of these idiots has their own agenda. They tell you what you want to hear just to get into power, they play from the same playbook, Obama, and Dick Cheney were members of the CFR, who are not elected but seem to dictate our policies, you are getting what a think tank policy is from both members, the left right, blue/red issue is a non-issue, its an illusion to create the idea you have a choice. You will get the same, only what they spouted out against of the other party is still done, only in the dark. One is for fascism, and the other for socialism. They are party first, pockets second, Israel third, bankers and big business forth, and last and least, the American people themselves. They are tyrants, and your ideas, wants and wishes are in the way of what they want to do to better the world for them, not you. Repubs and dems have been in power now for how long? When are the sheeple going to get it that you are not on the agenda for anything but slavery, economic, militaristic, moral (or lack thereof) Slavery. Look up New world order, pay attention to what is going on, they are selling us out methodically, look at what is needed for one world dictatorship, look at what has been done, kiss your freedoms goodbye, and the bill of rights, you may not want these rights for those that you despise, but that is a double edged sword. And soon you will feel the pain of not having them the more you try to get them out of the ones you hate. Where is self responsibility, self reliance, self protection, self worth? Where are the men, the real men?…well they were castrated through laws by the feminist movement, you women are on your own now, good job, men arent allowed to be men, they turn into pussies wearing suits weilding a pen while wearing depends because how dare they be masculine, take up space, wave a flag from ontop of the battlefield of ideas, you know, the same kind of men who started this country in the first place. (I had to add that seeing that this seems to be a feminist site.) You have castrated your own protectors, now that they cant practice being men, they are watered down versions forced into being sniveling cowards reliant on a system to protect them that cant even manage itself.
I voted for Ron Paul, not because he is dem or repub, but because his record speaks for itself, he is not a politicion, he is a statesmen, there is a huge difference. He stands by the constitution, he speaks of lyberty and what this country meant, but you idiots made your choice, you rejected freedom. Maybe get away from the TV sometime and research and formulate your own opinions, not from the lying manipulating mainstream media who is owned by the very ones selling us all out. We do need a war, a revolutionary war, this system is beyond changing, that is a pipe dream, they are entrenched and will never give the power back to the people, that would ruin all their plans for population reduction, world government, and control. By the way, a guy in a cave did not pull off 9/11, do some damn research, the answers are out there, add them up and see what you get. Herd sheep, dont be one. Peace.
Sorry for the mispelled words, I was on a role.
Good evening,
I would just like to address the issue of sitting down and discussing the issues of ALL sides. I (and many like me) have been and actually do sit down and discuss the issues, but it seems that whenever we have someone in the discussion who may have voted for Obama, they are the only ones who get upset and out of control with the discussion. I love to discuss what is going on and even bring forth proof of what I state (such as news video, newspaper articals and such of those talked about) and just simply ask for those involved to discuss what the see and hear. Not everyone can accept what they see and hear. Straight up and honest, I know both sides are to blame for where we are at, but if you cannot see how MR Obama has and is literaly tearing this country apart, then you are hiding it from yourself, because it is evrywhere. I stated from the beginning that I hope that I would be proven wrong and that I will be the first to admit it. I have prayed each and every day (sometimes several times a day) for the leadership of this country and that they would make the right decissions as well as for the truth to be exposed to the people of this country and that we would all have an open heart and open mind to what we see. Thank you for your time and may God bless those who speak his truth and abide in his word. Jeremiah 12:17 But if they will not obey, I will utterly pluck up and destroy that nation, saith the LORD.
There are many great points in these posts. I am confused, as we spar about republicans and democrats at what point did are politicians move from public servants to royalty. It seems to make little difference who is elected; these so called public servants vote them selves monetary increases and give themselves perks that they are allowed to keep for the remainder of there lives. We have allowed our public servants to put themselves on pedestals, even to the point that there lives are protected by law on a higher level then the bosses (tax payer). Our so called leaders could not run a Girl Scout troop with out spending the cookie sales revenue from 2025. America’s employees should not be entitled to private jets and limos at the taxpayers expense, but rather there own provided transportation or public. They would have the option of a deduction on there IRS 1099. People in numbers will always have there differences. We should be able to find common ground in the fact that our elected contractors are a bad value. Our elected contractors are so deeply rooted in our pockets that even during this economic down turn they were able to give there staff raises. You have to wonder if their health insurance was removed and their pay lowered to the average annual income of the taxpayer, would they still spend two million of their own money to get elected.
The next Civil war is about color it’s going to be against the terrorist, that kind of nationality. It’s about the White, Black and Mexican’s = The New America taken out the loved ones that took out our loved ones. Our Military, Don’t protect the ones that serve. FTW
I’m Christian and conservative. I do not wish to push my beliefs upon you and don’t want you to impose yours upon me. I may disagree with someone else’s lifestyle, might even say so, but that’s not imposing or forcing. Maybe you only fear the unknown of what comes in the end and which each of us must face and who is right.
And as far as our lousy scheming politicians, it should be obvious. They speak with slick words, touting how they will even the playing fields and give to you from the earnings and wealth of others to make that happen. Ever notice – THEY’VE NO INTENTION OF GIVING UP ANY OF THEIR WEALTH, WHICH MANY HAVE AN ABUNDANCE OF!!!
They intend on being the ones left in power and staying there, just by promising and dangling that magical carrot in front of you. How long will you remain a child, having a tantrum when you don’t get the toys “freebies” you want, regardless who must pay the price for it? Do you appreciate having the “worker” next to you sitting there while you do the job and then get the same paycheck at the end of the day?
If you don’t believe in the old saying “what goes around comes around”, you need to, because it really does happen! You will have a consequence for what you sow. It just may not be what you wanted.
Personally i don’t really see a coming Civil war in america……….What i do is see is *The Melt Down Of American Values* A Government that strengthens its hands to do that of their party’s agenda rather then listening to the will of the people. The recent health care bill is a prime example of this! Its more about whats left, or right in america today. Rather then whats right for america, and its people. The mass spending by our government is out of control, and with all of the recent bailouts it will cost all of americans..**NO MATER WHAT PARTY YOU BELONG TOO* Sorry for the caps just stressing a point. The Cost of living going up within the future, alone with higher taxes will be a burden to alot of families. But don’t we elect folk to represent us. But. The way things are we seem to elect them to represent their own party values, and ideas. Last time i checked the government should be *Of The people, and for the people, and by the people……..
SM Kovalinsky: The small towns exist. I have lived in three of them. Electronic communications will never replace face-to-face communications.
hmmmm…and no one has spoken on here since then…