I just met with a high-ranking member of the Muslim Brotherhood in Cairo while large ongoing demonstrations against Egypt’s ruling military junta continue 24 hours a day in Tahrir Square downtown. Every political party in the country is at that square right now except the Muslim Brotherhood. If you want to meet with them, you have to take a taxi down to their headquarters.
My friend, colleague, and traveling companion Armin Rosen is with me. He and I have spoken to liberals, socialists, small-l libertarians, intellectuals, human rights activists, moderate establishment figures, professors, local journalists, Egyptian foreign policy experts, and a bunch of random people. The range of political opinion right now in Egypt is much wider than it was before. The January revolution really broke this place open. It’s physically and culturally the same country I visited before, but it’s politically unrecognizable as the Egypt I knew.
Everyone outside Egypt wants to know more about the Muslim Brotherhood, though, so I’m going to start by letting you read the entire conversation Armin and I had with one of its most prominent figures. Be careful, though. Don’t assume this man represents Egypt’s political center. He doesn’t. The Muslim Brotherhood speaks for itself and represents only a large minority.
It was the largest and best organized opposition group during Hosni Mubarak’s rule, but that was partly a function of it being the only sizeable organization that was semi-tolerated by the regime for its own reasons. Now that Egyptians are free to go their own way, there are roughly 40 different political parties. The Muslim Brotherhood isn’t the only available “protest vote” any more. I’ve already met people who have abandoned the Muslim Brothers to join liberals and leftists, partly because they’re tired of rigid old men, but also because more liberal options are finally viable. And the Brotherhood itself is rupturing into relatively moderate and reactionary fragments.
It is still a powerful force, though, powerful enough that the United States government thinks it might be a good idea to establish contacts with the party. And the Brothers will no doubt have an impact on regional politics even if they do end up, at the end of the day, smaller (and therefore with a harder core) than they recently were.
If you’ve been wondering whether or not the Muslim Brotherhood in its current form is a moderate or an extremist organization, I will let this interview with one of its senior officials, executive bureau member Esam El-Erian, speak for itself.
Muslim Brotherhood executive bureau member Esam El-Erian
Armin Rosen: Can you tell us about the Muslim Brotherhood’s vision for Egypt at this point?
Esam El-Erian: Egypt has changed, and change is ongoing. It has been changing not only in the last ten years, but for one hundred years. We have been struggling for freedom and independence for a long time, ever since we were occupied by the British in 1882. During this period we had two big attempts to build a democratic state. Both failed. One was a good attempt after the big revolution in 1919. We had a liberal life, a parliament, and a constitution, but the monarchy stopped everything. Then we had a military coup in 1952. We hoped to have a good democratic system, but when the military rules, you can forget about having a democracy.
This is our third attempt, and it’s different this time because the people themselves went to the streets to revolt. No one dares to say he’s a leader of the revolution or behind the revolution. The people are making this happen through their own efforts. We Muslim Brothers were among the people because we represent a sector of the population, but we’d never dare to say this revolution is an Islamic revolution. It’s a national revolution.
MJT: You guys were completely taken by surprise by this, weren’t you?
Esam El-Erian: We all need a free and independent democratic state. We have struggled for a strong and independent Egypt not only for 100 years, but for 200 years, since Mohammad Ali. He was also supported by foreigners. There was no USA at that time, but the French, British, and Germans put him under siege, and this was an insult to Egyptians. We were under the authority of the Ottoman Empire, and we respected Mohammad Ali and the Ottoman authorities, but he wanted reform within the empire and to have a good modern country as a symbol. He never achieved this. In 30 years, he was broken. And ever since we’ve wanted an independent and strong modern state.
MJT: What do you think of the liberal era before Nasser came to power in 1952? When you look back on that, does it look better than the current era or worse?
Esam El-Erian: The Bush Administration invaded Afghanistan, and it failed. You’re facing disaster there now and don’t know how to escape. [Laughs.] A safe escape from Afghanistan will just add another disaster added to the disaster of the occupation. And the Bush Administration tried to create a democratic model in Iraq. It also brought a disaster, not only to the Iraqi people, but to the nation of America and the values of America. And to the economy of America. [Laughs.]
This was, of course, not in the American interest, but in the interest of some people who are governing the think tanks and the media. Now that Obama is facing this disaster, the Republicans are putting this burden on his shoulders. This is a big lie. He inherited this.
It is time for you to respect others, to respect your values, and to be a real democracy. Respect multiplicity in the world. We are different. This county is different from Saudi Arabia. It is different from America and the U.K. This is the most important lesson of the Egyptian and Arab revolutions. You need to respect their choice. Don’t intervene in their domestic affairs. Treat them as equals, as human beings, not as an oil field. [Laughs.] People are not going to drink oil.
I hope after the success of the revolution, if the revolution has an impact in Saudi Arabia, that the Saudis will only produce the oil they need, not what you need. If they keep their own oil for their own future generations, that will teach the Americans to respect others and not to insult the Saudis and the Arabs.
Armin Rosen: How are Americans insulting the Saudis?
Esam El-Erian: Yes. Yes. Yes. I’ll give you some examples. Your administrations—while your people are silent—have been supporting tyrants and dictators all over the Islamic world for more than 60 years.
MJT: The government has, yes.
Esam El-Erian: You supported the Shah of Iran. You supported Suharto, the generals in Pakistan, all Arab leaders.
MJT: You do understand that was government policy.
Esam El-Erian: Yes, but the American government is an elected one. You don’t only vote on your taxes. You also vote for foreign affairs.
MJT: During our election campaigns we don’t get the choice between supporting or not supporting Mubarak.
Esam El-Erian: You insult Arab people.
MJT: You insult Americans.
Esam El-Erian: No.
MJT: There is a lot of anti-American sentiment in Egypt, especially from you.
Esam El-Erian: Please respect my intelligence. When you vote for Republicans who create wars in the Arab world, and when a million people take to the streets while having no effect on the administration, what can you call this?
The second thing, of course, and you know this from media reports and human rights organizations, that people are tortured and killed on American orders. The third is that you never respect the rights of Palestinians. You never give equal opportunities to Palestinians and Zionists. All the time you are biased. You’re biased now and will be in the future. You’re biased.
Hillary Clinton just said Bashar al-Assad is not important to Americans anymore. Before this declaration, he was important! You supported him! People here are intelligent. They consider every word.
How can people here explain or understand the last decision in Congress which prevents Mr. Obama from training the revolutionaries in Libya?
MJT: What do you think about what’s going on over there?
Esam El-Erian: Look, sir. It’s a big game. You cannot convince me that the American administration is sticking to American values. Qaddafi is your man.
MJT: He’s our man?
Esam El-Erian: Yes.
MJT: Now, wait a minute.
Esam El-Erian: Yes.
Armin Rosen: He bombed a disco full of Americans.
MJT: He has been an anti-American dictator since the day he took power.
Esam El-Erian: French people are now having secret talks with Qaddafi and his son. [Laughs.]
MJT: We are not French.
Esam El-Erian: You neglected everything about Qaddafi when he declared that he’d get rid of so-called nuclear weapons. You neglected to think about him killing people and destroying his country. Your administration neglected everything. So how can I understand that Qaddafi was behind the attack over Lockerbie, Scotland? El Megrahi [the supposed mastermind of the attack] is still living in Libya and is a very big symbol of the hypocrisy of the West. All the West.
MJT: I want to back up for a second. You said that Qaddafi is our man because we restored relations with Libya. Is that all it takes for a dictator to be “our man”? That we have diplomatic relations?
Esam El-Erian: Sir. Who protected Qaddafi’s military coup d’etat? Who protected him? You had all this military power. You could have stopped him.
Who protects all the dictators of the Arab world? Your men are there everywhere, from the king of Morocco to the king of Bahrain. They are your men.
MJT: The king of Bahrain is an American ally, but Qaddafi was never an ally.
Esam El-Erian: These men represent foreign interests. I study history. You might not be convinced by what I say, but this will all be clear after secrets become available in documents. Some people here in this country believe Nasser was protected by the Americans. You advised Mubarak during this revolution to stay in power by making reforms.
Armin Rosen: What sort of relations would you like to see Egypt have with the United States?
Esam El-Erian: Ordinary relations. I think Americans are on the same track. And the world is not America. The world is very wide. We have Africa, we have Asia, we have the Arab world, we have Moscow, we have India. All those are ready to have ordinary relations with the Arab world. China is now the big purchaser of oil in the Sudan.
Armin Rosen: The government in Sudan is far more oppressive than the government in Libya.
Esam El-Erian: No. No. No. Look, sir. China, Iran, and France are the three players in Africa. America is now out. And the Arab world may be lost to America if it doesn’t revise its strategy. It may be lost. All the Arab world. This American attempt to stop the revolution in Syria and Libya and Yemen is going to fail.
MJT: Now, wait just a minute.
Armin Rosen: You think it’s okay for China to buy oil from Sudan, but it’s not okay for the U.S. to re-establish ties with Qaddafi after he gave up his nuclear weapons program? Isn’t that a double standard?
Esam El-Erian: China’s interests are economic only. It doesn’t link economics and politics. All your candidates say they will transfer your embassy from Tel Aviv to Al Quds [Jerusalem].
MJT: They always say that, but they never do it.
Esam El-Erian: But what’s the message to the Arab world? This is very dangerous for the image of Americans. You are biased!
MJT: Yeah, but you’re biased, too. You guys are completely biased toward the Palestinians.
Esam El-Erian: When Congressmen stood up thirty times to salute Netanyahu when he gave his speech in the Congress, it destroyed any dream for peace.
MJT: Why should Americans be unbiased, but it’s okay for you to be biased?
Esam El-Erian: We are fighting for and defending our interests.
MJT: So are we. That’s how the world works.
Esam El-Erian: This is our right.
Can you imagine a democratic Syria or a democratic Jordan assimilating Palestinians in their lands? They cannot. It is a matter of time. Those people must go back [to Israel]. You prevent Mexicans by force from secret immigration.
MJT: Only illegal immigrants, not legal immigrants.
Esam El-Erian: This is illegal. We cannot have non-citizens in our lands. They take our jobs.
MJT: Palestinian refugees have been living in Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan for more than 60 years.
Esam El-Erian: No! Even if they’ve been there for 200 years, they must go back [to Israel].
MJT: What about all the Jews in Israel that got thrown out of places like Baghdad?
Esam El-Erian: Let them live together.
MJT: Should they go back to Baghdad?
Esam El-Erian: Let them live together. Why not? Live together.
MJT: They can’t live together because they don’t like each other.
Esam El-Erian: What about the Jews who came from Russia? Why do you put pressure on Syrian people, or Lebanese people, to compensate and tolerate Palestinians? You never put any pressure on Israel to compensate or tolerate Palestinians. Is this biased or not biased?
MJT: It’s biased, but why should we not be biased and not stick by our allies, while you are biased and stick by your allies? That’s just how the world works. Look, I don’t expect Egyptians to suddenly like Israel, so why…
Esam El-Erian: Our only war is the war for democracy. Those guys in Tahrir Square and Syria and Yemen are struggling for democracy. When democracy flourishes, it will solve everything, including the conflict with Israel. Democracy will solve it, peacefully, without bloodshed. We need democracy and freedom. These are human values. Are we an exception? We are not an exception!
You spend 40 million dollars here to promote democracy. This was declared in the Congress. This is good. But you can keep this for yourselves, and we can build our democracy without any aid.
MJT: You would rather that Americans who support Egyptian democracy not help you?
Esam El-Erian: Keep your money for poor Americans. It’s better for you.
MJT: Well, a lot of Americans would agree with you about that.
Esam El-Erian: You have trouble with your health care system. Sick people in America need this money. It would be good for them. And good for us.
Hosni Mubarak is Egyptian. If we dislike him, we will put him on trial. I was tortured in prison by Hosni Mubarak, but I am for giving him a fair trial and the opportunity to defend himself. I faced a military trial, but never called for a military trial for Hosni Mubarak. You know why he won’t face international charges? Because he will be asked about everything. And when he says everything, it will destroy the images of many leaders around the world. Your leaders are against a trial for Hosni Mubarak. There will be big surprises when we try Hosni Mubarak. Israel will send a spy to kill him before the trial! [Laughs.] We want to know why a former Israeli minister described Mubarak as a “treasure.”
Please, if you want to describe what is going on in Egypt and the Arab world, it is a big change. No power can stop this change because it’s the will of the people, the power of the people. People want to live in peace, not in war, in independent democratic states, preserving their human dignity, keeping their wealth for themselves and future demonstrations.
MJT: Do you think they’ll win in Syria? Assad is killing lots of people.
Esam El-Erian: Others killed even more. His father killed 20,000 people in one day in Hama. Change can reach every place. The kings of Morocco and Jordan are making reforms.
MJT: What do you think of the Saudi government?
Esam El-Erian: They are intelligent. Kings are more intelligent than tyrants. They have the wealth and the power. If they give some power to the people, they keep the wealth. And this is good.
I hope you transmit the truth to the American people, and also advise politicians that they must revise their strategy.
MJT: What would you like American foreign policy to look like?
Esam El-Erian: Of course, that is up to Americans. You should advise them. I cannot advise them. You in the media play a very important role.
MJT: A little role.
Esam El-Erian: The media and think tanks play a very important role. You created a ghost, a monster, this terrorism. You magnify terrorism, and we face its vengeance. You in the media link every Arab, every Muslim, to terrorists. We were pushed to take off our shoes in your airports.
MJT: I have to take off my shoes, too.
Esam El-Erian: Why?
MJT: I don’t like it either.
Esam El-Erian: You make people live in terror.
MJT: Who does?
Esam El-Erian: You do. The media.
MJT: Who is living in terror?
Esam El-Erian: Your politicians. Your media. Your media.
MJT: We don’t live in terror. I don’t know a single person in the media who lives in terror.
Esam El-Erian: Can you answer one question? Why don’t we hear about trials for September 11?
MJT: Because the people who did it are dead. They killed themselves in the towers.
Armin Rosen: There was a civilian trial.
Esam El-Erian: Four thousand innocent people were killed, and there has been no trial.
MJT: That’s because the people who did it are dead.
Esam El-Erian: Nobody was put in a cage to face a trial.
MJT: They were on the planes. They blew themselves up in the towers.
Esam El-Erian: No. Who was behind it?
MJT: Osama bin Laden. And we just killed him, too.
Esam El-Erian: We know you have about 600 people in Guantanamo Bay. None of them have faced trials. Why? This is a very big mystery.
MJT: Well, what do you think happened? What’s your theory?
Esam El-Erian: And another 4,000 Americans were killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. You have almost 10,000 innocent Americans killed. Never mind the millions killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. You never put anyone on trial. Who is behind all this? Who made the conspiracy? Is Osama bin Laden alone? Who is behind Osama bin Laden?
Armin Rosen: Who do you think is behind Osama bin Laden?
Esam El-Erian: I want to know!
MJT: What’s your theory?
Esam El-Erian: You have the documents now that Osama bin Laden is dead.
MJT: What’s your theory?
Esam El-Erian: I don’t know.
MJT: You have a theory.
Esam El-Erian: I want to know. That is the question.
MJT: Everybody has a theory. What’s yours?
Esam El-Erian: Why 10,000 Americans killed? Why? Without any investigation.
MJT: Why does it have to be a conspiracy? It really isn’t that complicated.
Esam El-Erian: Is Osama bin Laden alone, or is somebody with him?
MJT: Why does anyone have to be behind Osama bin Laden?
Esam El-Erian: This must be investigated in America! There is this case in the U.K. about hacked telephones. 160 news people were fired.
MJT: [Laughs.] That has nothing to do with Osama bin Laden.
Esam El-Erian: A very old newspaper was closed. There was no drop of blood. If 10,000 Americans don’t expect to have a full investigation about the killings in New York, Iraq, and Afghanistan, we want to know.
MJT: Look, it really isn’t that complicated. Osama bin Laden had some support in Saudi Arabia and from Pakistan’s ISI.
Esam El-Erian: Look, sir. It is not enough that Osama bin Laden admitted in public that he did it. Osama bin Laden can’t do it alone.
MJT: He had some support in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.
Esam El-Erian: If you’re saying Saddam Hussein supported him, it’s a lie. Colin Powell said Saddam Hussein had biological weapons, but this was a lie. Colin Powell now regrets this.
We want to know.
MJT: What is it that you don’t know?
Esam El-Erian: You tell me.
MJT: This isn’t complicated.
Esam El-Erian: Yes, it’s complicated. I agree!
MJT: No. It’s not complicated.
Esam El-Erian: I am a physician. If a lady comes to me and suffers from any complaint, I will investigate. A complicated case must be fully investigated.
It has been ten years. When will Americans will know the truth about who killed 10,000 people?
MJT: The American people are satisfied that we know who did it.
Esam El-Erian: No.
MJT: Yes, we are.
Esam El-Erian: No.
MJT: You aren’t, but we are.
Esam El-Erian: The people cannot forget. The victims and their families will face everyone who keeps silent and protects the real people who were behind this and have drawn a curtain over the truth.
MJT: Who do you think did it? You think the United States government did it?
Esam El-Erian: The American people faced Joe McCarthy. And there were the Chinese people after the Cultural Revolution.
MJT: Are you suggesting the United States government was behind 9/11?
Esam El-Erian: Nobody knows! I don’t know.
Armin Rosen: Let me suggest…
Esam El-Erian: You are very naïve people.
MJT: I’m not naïve. I do this for a living.
Esam El-Erian: So Osama bin Laden admits he’s the murderer. You gave him 25 million dollars, then you killed him, so fine, now the file is closed. For me, it is not closed.
Armin Rosen: Let me be even more blunt than Michael. There is a clear line between the founders of the Muslim Brotherhood and the ideology that inspires Al Qaeda.
MJT: That’s absolutely true.
Armin Rosen: Is there some queasiness on your part in blaming 9/11 solely on him as opposed to the dictators that you believe the U.S. supports?
Esam El-Erian: Of course. We are victims of 9/11.
MJT: Ayman al-Zawahiri was a member of your organization.
Esam El-Erian: This region [pounds table] is a victim of 9/11. This region was put under dictatorship because we were accused as a nation of being behind 9/11.
MJT: Nobody thinks Egypt committed 9/11.
Esam El-Erian: Mohammad Atta is from Egypt.
MJT: Yes, he’s from Egypt, but he himself is not Egypt.
Esam El-Erian: We were all called criminals. The entire nation.
MJT: Nobody thinks that.
Esam El-Erian: Yes. For ten years. Why do you support those dictatorships that torture us in our prisons?
Armin Rosen: Do you see any relation between the ideology of the Muslim Brotherhood and Al Qaeda? There is a history there.
Esam El-Erian: Al Qaeda has been against the Muslim Brotherhood all its life.
MJT: That’s true, but Ayman al-Zawahiri was once a member of the Muslim Brotherhood.
Esam El-Erian: I was surprised when a Congressman visited me last week and said it is well-known in America that the Muslim Brotherhood is linked to Al Qaeda.
MJT: I’m not saying you are Al Qaeda.
Esam El-Erian: You know, but he is a decision-maker. He says the Muslim Brotherhood and Al Qaeda are the same.
MJT: If you were Al Qaeda, I wouldn’t be sitting in your office.
Esam El-Erian: Look, sir. If you don’t dare to learn the truth about 9/11, we will. We were victims of this dirty and bloody crime.
MJT: You think you’re victims because Egypt was blamed?
Esam El-Erian: All the nation. The whole Arab and Muslim nation was called terrorists. And you put these nations under dictatorship to face this ghost.
MJT: We didn’t put Egypt under dictatorship.
Esam El-Erian: Your administration did.
MJT: Mubarak was already in power.
Esam El-Erian: And you put Hamas in the same cage as Al Qaeda. They are fighting for their liberty, but you describe them as terrorists.
MJT: What do you think of Hamas’ martyrdom operations [suicide-bombings]?
Esam El-Erian: Hamas was elected in a democratic process that your former president Jimmy Carter witnessed, but you neglect everything and call them terrorists.
MJT: So you think they aren’t terrorists.
Esam El-Erian: Of course. They are fighters for liberty. Their land is occupied by the real terrorists. Real terrorists who kill innocent farmers in Qana and children in Egypt. They killed children in school here in 1968. They are the real terrorists.
MJT: Hamas kills children in schools.
Esam El-Erian: Why do you describe one as terrorist, but not the other? Say both are terrorists. If you make an excuse for someone, you must have this excuse for others.
MJT: Not all violence is terrorism.
Esam El-Erian: Israelis kill children. They killed 300 children in Gaza. Those 300 children were fighters?
MJT: Children get killed in every war, but that doesn’t mean everyone who fights in a war is a terrorist. Egypt sent troops to Yemen to fight there and help the revolutionaries. Is Egypt a terrorist state? Do you seriously believe that no Egyptian soldier ever killed a child in Yemen?
Esam El-Erian: Look, sir.
MJT: I asked you a serious question.
Esam El-Erian: For three centuries your grandfathers killed the Indians.
MJT: We can do this all day.
Esam El-Erian: If you want to go to history, we can walk through history together. But we are speaking about the present. [Bangs table.] In the present, you are biased.
MJT: Of course we’re biased. So are you.
Esam El-Erian: Your media and administration are biased.
MJT: Everyone is biased.
Esam El-Erian: The politicians are no longer making the rules here. The people are. And the people are very intelligent in Egypt, even farmers in Upper Egypt. They know who is our enemy. Don’t link yourself and your nation to the enemy of the Egyptian people.
MJT: Who is the enemy of the Egyptians?
Esam El-Erian: Israelis.
MJT: You guys have a peace treaty with Israel.
Esam El-Erian: If they respect it, the Egyptian people will respect it, but the Israelis do not respect it.
MJT: Israel is not attacking Egypt.
Esam El-Erian: Israel attacks everybody.
MJT: Israel is not attacking Egypt.
Esam El-Erian: Why are you neglecting the attack on Gaza?
MJT: Gaza is not Egypt.
Esam El-Erian: Bombs came over our borders. Why do you neglect the treaty? We have no comprehensive peace and no Palestinian state.
The whole world is changing. This is a time to revise the whole world order, as George Bush the father said. We need a new world order. Human beings should have equal lives and equal opportunities with the West. We must share in this new order and not be neglected all the time.
Armin Rosen: There are a lot of people in the U.S. who think the Muslim Brotherhood wants a moderate Islamist state supported by the military like they have in Sudan.
Esam El-Erian: Sudan is not an Islamist state. [Laughs.]
Armin Rosen: It’s a constitutionally Islamist state backed by the military.
Esam El-Erian: All the Arab states are constitutionally described as Islamic states. All of them.
Armin Rosen: Well, what sort of ideal state structure do you want?
Esam El-Erian: An Egyptian state.
Armin Rosen: What does that mean?
Esam El-Erian: All of your colleagues ask me that question. The British made a democracy, and the French made another one, and the Americans made a third one, and the Germans made a sixth one. All are democratic. We have diversity and different interpretations, so we can have different models of democracy.
MJT: Lebanon has its own model of democracy, and Iraq has a slightly different one. What would Egypt’s look like structurally?
Esam El-Erian: Lebanon is a special circumstance.
[His cell phone rings. He has been ignoring most incoming calls, but he has to take this one and he talks for ten minutes in Arabic. He eventually hangs up and switches back to English.]
Thank you, sirs. It was a nice hot meeting. [Laughs.]
MJT: Before we go, can I at least ask why you aren’t down in Tahrir Square with everyone else? Every party in the country is demonstrating against the regime except the Muslim Brotherhood.
Esam El-Erian: We were in Tahrir Square.
MJT: But you aren’t there now.
Esam El-Erian: Because now is very confusing. I went down there yesterday. I looked at the faces of the people, and they are not the people I know.
MJT: The people down there are liberals and socialists.
Esam El-Erian: It’s chaos.
Armin Rosen: We’ve talked to a lot of activists there, and almost all of them say the Muslim Brotherhood is not on their side, that you’re opportunists.
Esam El-Erian: We were there on Friday, but we are not backing the sit-in.
Armin Rosen: I mean in general. They don’t feel like you’re on their side.
Esam El-Erian: Look, sir. When the history of this revolution is written, everything will be clear. We are not going to say anything about our role in the revolution. Let the others say what they want.
*
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This guy must be a great politician — his mouth moves and words come out but they make no sense.
He babbles incomprehensibly, regurgitates his mythology and seems unable to follow simple points.
THIS is the Muslim Brotherhood? Yikes!
Boy, do I admire your willingness to listen to the mindless drivel of this nutcase and argue with him…
Insanity ‘R Us.
And this is the tip of the iceberg.
Wow. That was heated. He didn’t answer any questions, either. I guess he’s not used to it.
It is a bit hypocritical for him to blame the U.S. for Arab tyranny. And our alternative has been what? Did the U.S. invent Arab dictatorships? Does he forget that the MB initially supported Nasser? The only true democracy in the Middle East is the very one that the Muslim Brotherhood has vowed to wipe off the map (Israel).
And to think that Esam El-Erian supposedly represents the “moderate” wing of the MB. These are the guys we’re now dealing with?
I used to talk to people like this all the time, basically meshuggah, it sounds totally insane in English but when said in Arabic & in the context of a country where so many people talk like this, it just sounds irrational, twisted. But, the guy wasn’t trying for a rational discussion, he was just trying to score points, like bargaining in a bazaar, being coherent is not a ”value” – he could say totally different things five minutes later, perhaps equally nuts, but different. And, believe me, he was toning it down for a Western audience, this was his idea of ”moderate” …….
I used to bait characters like this from time to time just to see how enraged I could make them, then you really get an ear-full ……
Michael and Armin challenged his talking points. I bet no one in Egypt outside the military would dare be so confrontational as to challenge his talking points to his face. He took it amazingly smoothly for an Islamist thug. But you know that every lie Michael challenged will be back unchanged the next time he talks. These are not honest men, they are fanatics demanding as much power as they can possibly get.
The fact that he was capable of anything approaching shows how weak the Muslim Brotherhood has been. No one could argue that bluntly with a leader in Iran or even with a Hezbollah leader.
I meant to type:
…The fact that he was capable of anything approaching debate shows how weak the Muslim Brotherhood has been…
That was kind of exhausting to read. Thanks for publishing the entire thing. I get a sense of what it must be like to be a Muslim Brotherhood ideologue. It’s an ideological hothouse, for sure. Dogmatic, evasive, accusatory with an implication of the tyrannical.
You should have asked him how the Arabs came to Palestine originally and whether they were “illegal immigrants” and why the Jews cannot take Palestine the same way the Arabs did.
Terrific interview, Michael. This guy reminds of Azmi Bishara, a former Israeli MK who defected to Syria. The man was brilliant but so angry that it overwhelmed his intelligence. This guy is clearly not stupid, but he’s also shooting at windmills with a bazooka. His remarks about Israel are very telling. He doesn’t even really hate Israel, because he doesn’t know anything about it. He hates the idea of Israel he’s built in his own mind. Same with the United States.
Unbelievable interview! Did you guys ever feel threatened during the interview, as it got heated and twisted?
He doesn’t even really hate Israel…
Um, actually, he does. He really does. (The least you could do is give him the benefit of the doubt(!!))
…Although, I suppose one could maintain that he doesn’t hate Israel; he just wants it to disappear. Like immediately….(And if he really, really “knew” the “real Israel”…he’d want it disappear even faster…)
Well, whatever.
Thanks again for this priceless panorama—-this “Fantastic Voyage” into the crepuscular (if not exactly “unknown”) recesses of what constitutes cutting-edge Egyptian politics!
I’m impressed that you didn’t go nuts talking to this person. People like him really believe what they’re saying and don’t seem to notice that they’re blathering irrationally. But he’s smooth too, trying to make you out to be the racists (“Respect my intelligence”), the biased ones, the oppressors, and the enemy of the world. Not much new information here, and few surprises. If the MB gains enough traction to have a significant presence in a new Egyptian government, God help them all.
How common are such irrational views in the Arab world?
The incoherence coming out of this guy was painful to watch. I noticed that it seems to be a common trait amongst Arabs to blame everyone but their own for their ills. Is this a common observation?
Well I have to say, you two guys really have balls!
I had to skip some parts…it was making my head spin.
Anyway, it was a real revelation. Thank you so much, Michael and Armin.
But you know in 1931-32 Hitler and the Nazis were a “large minority”.
This is all too familiar. To this guy and all his pals, they are doing God’s work.
Terry is right. This is the tip of the iceberg. In arabic it no doubt would be a lot worse. Sounds a bit too much like “Ein volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer”
Akiva: Did you guys ever feel threatened during the interview, as it got heated and twisted?
Not at all.
How common are such irrational views in the Arab world?
There’s no shortage of bizarre irrationality in the Arab world, but no one else I’ve talked to since my arrival in Cairo is even remotely like this guy. Some of the people I’ve met are very impressive.
He certainly has an enduring tactic, to mix hard truths that no one wants to acknowledge with conspiracies no one can prove. At the very least he seems like another ‘freedom’-shouter who ultimately just sees journalists as one way microphones. At best is his point about Americans sharing the responsibility for the actions of their elected leaders, not even when, but especially when narrowly elected.
Did he know that his interview was going into the blogosphere rather than any big print outfit?
He reminds me of the same fanatics in our country who will, as it suits them, piggyback either the ‘will of the people’ or the bias of the media as an excuse for why the will of the people is wrong. I’d like to know how genuinely independent journalists plan to counter this tactic when, as you suggest, bias seems more an inevitability than a flaw.
Michael: What this guy said to you or to your buddy is not important in so many ways! This interview reminded me that Arafat would say something pleasing to the West in English and then really express his mind in Arabic and the West ignored those last statements! Perhaps this guy and The Brotherhood is playing the same kind of Kabuki theater now?
However, great job of digging into Egyptian life!
Its like talking to a pickle. Simply amazing logic bending skills.
Michael how is the relative feel of Cairo in terms of crime, tourism and overall daily life? Is it completely different from before the revolution? I’ve read there’s a large spike in street crime and general lawlessness. Economy must be at a standstill right now as well.
ps – the MB nutbag’s comment on American aid going back to ill Americans, I completely agree with him on that one. (The only thing I agree with him on)
THAT was quite the interview! I was suffering vertigo for a minute or two after reading the text. His facts and fantasy tour wore me out. Our politicians seem masters of logical thinking after reading this interview.
However, all kidding aside, your and Armin’s interview with Esam El-Erian was invaluable into understanding the mindset of these people. This is the kind of reporting that enlightens us into who we are dealing with over there.
Many thanks.
Michael,
Working with Egyptians outside of Egypt, I have had opportunity to speak with them about the happenings in their country. When you say there are many different factions and opinions over there, I have an easy time believing it. I don’t think I’ve spoken to two people that have the same opinion of who should be in charge, how the government should be formed, or how Islam’s roll will play out. That last one I’m very hesitant to get into with them because you just never know how big of a hot topic that will be!
Great interview! I can’t say that I’ve spoken with anyone like him, but there are definitly widly varied opinions and the Egyptians get very passionate when “discussing” them!!
It just occurred to me that what I said b4 might be better illustrated by considering that Hamas is a wing of the Muslim Brotherhood, at this point known for throwing the opposition to their death off the top of buildings.. Not guys you want to get into arguments with.
You are a patient man Michael, but I think you knew already that in time these people would condemn themselves out of their own mouths. The Moslem Brotherhood is an islamo-fascist organistation. Any Western policy that does not aim at their utter destruction is mistaken.
Josh Scholar: Not guys you want to get into arguments with.
I’m not going to just sit there and cringe while a deranged belligerent bigot insults me, my country, and my intelligence unless he is armed. Most journalists probably do sit there and take it, but I am not them.
He would have picked that fight with any American who walked into his office, but his own culture and religion forbid him from treating guests this way. No one else I’ve interviewed in this country from any other political party is even in the same time zone as this guy. Everyone else has been incredibly nice, and also far more reasonable and intelligent than this weirdo.
I’d make a terrible diplomat, I know, but oh well.
Jesus Mike is this the best you can do. I learnt absolutely nothing bar this character doesnt like US ‘foreign policy’, is this really going to remain your interview style? How about actually attempting to uncover information that is relevant rather than getting sucked down these rabbit holes
Ronan: is this really going to remain your interview style?
First time here, I take it.
Frightening! In any other culture, the guy would be considered a lunatic. At least half of it was just tirades, completely unconnected to any question you asked. Do you think he knows (or cares) that most Americans would consider him to be literally insane?
And what are the chances that people like him will make up the next government of Egypt? In my pessimistic moments, I’d say roughly 100%. And why not? Isn’t that what happened in Iran?
And the Arab world may be lost to America if it doesn’t revise its strategy. It may be lost.
How does he know that “losing” the Arab world is not America’s strategy? I’ll go on record right now and state that I am totally OK with America losing the Arab world, and Egypt should be the first over the side.
Micheal, I started counting the lies and gave up in the middle of his first response when I hit three. I only slimmed the rest of the interview. Sorry. I was really kinda hoping we’d hear from the liberals you’ve been telling us we should give a chance.
This man is indeed on a very different level of rational thought, if you can call it that. He really doesn’t seem to answer questions very much and I loved the dialogue you two exchanged about 9/11.
Esam El-Erian: This region [pounds table] is a victim of 9/11. This region was put under dictatorship because we were accused as a nation of being behind 9/11.
So Mubarak, who became President of Egypt in 1981, was appointed dictator because of something that happened in 2001? Seriously?
When has the Arab world not been run by dictators or colonial powers in the last century?
Either this guy is unclear on how causality works, or his grasp of english is shaky. I think it’s more likely to be the latter. Do you have any idea what he was trying to say?
And what kind of vibe did you get off these guys?
Mike Reynolds: Frightening! In any other culture, the guy would be considered a lunatic.
Believe me, the Muslim Brotherhood is considered insane by plenty of Egyptians. No one else I’ve talked to has bombarded me with this kind of insanity. There are 39 other political parties in this country.
The British made a democracy, and the French made another one, and the Americans made a third one…
So, he was educated in a British school, eh? I don’t think the British even admitted the US was a sovereign state at all until about 1850 and I don’t think they acknowledged we had democracy until the 20th century
MJT, if the Muslim Brotherhood is just an influential minority why does so much of what this man says look just like what I’ve been reading on Egyptian blogs the last half dozen years?
That was an embarrassing interview for all involved (well, actually, Armin Rosen came off well). El-Erian clearly holds bizarre, conspiratorial views, but I don’t think it was entirely his fault that the conversation resembled a flame war in the comments section of a blog rather than a rational discussion. When he avoided questions, or went off on tangents, there was no attempt to control him or redirect and refocus the conversation. The challenges to his points cam across not as serious attempts to confront him and push him to substantiate his claims, but rather as merely belligerent. There was hardly any discussion of the ostensible topic of the interview–politics and the MB in the new Egypt.
Further, the decision not to interview him in Arabic was a poor one (though perhaps he insisted on English?). While his English seemed competent, any speaker of a second language knows that being able to speak properly in a language does not mean it is easy to speak in a coherent, organized fashion. That’s not to say he wouldn’t also sound wacky in Arabic, but I’ve heard him speak in Arabic and he comes across as measured and articulate. Perhaps, then, you could say it’s a boon to hear him interviewed in English as it brings out his weird worldview, but I think the right questions could have solicited similar positions in Arabic and there would be a smaller likelihood that he would launch onto these odd tangents. Moreover, the presence of a translator would have provided a buffer between the interlocutors and so limited the petty fighting.
I suppose even with the transcript it’s hard to get a feeling of the atmosphere of the discussion, so maybe I’m not putting enough blame on El-Erian. But still, I’m just flabbergasted that an interview with an important member of the biggest political force in Egypt (even taking into consideration the bizarro world he inhabits with respect to some issues) could result in such drivel.
I did research all over the Arab world (for grad work). This guy is typical. Not of everybody, but of alot of people.
Michael
This interview brought back memories of conversations over a five year period with Egyptian businessmen, often at the Royal Auto Club in Cairo, where their understanding of business and global scene was based on beliefs that, to me, seemed incredulous. One of the remembered soundbites was when the widely traveled managing director of an Egyptian company said, “Jon, if only Egypt had oil we’d be another Japan.” As this was a cordial meeting I did not bother to note that Japan had no oil, not to mention the other rather obvious differences between the two countries.
When I first experienced this type of reasoning it seemed like an elaborate put on, but after awhile one notes these are firmly held beliefs across a wide range of individuals. Meaningful conversations are often impossible and negotiated agreements suspect. Still, in those not so long ago days I would walk Cairo’s streets unescorted and unmolested, absorbing a frustrated vibrancy. Egypt is a enchanting, endlessly fascinating and a completely enigmatic place.
Keep up the good work.
kzndr: I’m just flabbergasted that an interview with an important member of the biggest political force in Egypt (even taking into consideration the bizarro world he inhabits with respect to some issues) could result in such drivel.
It’s not my fault that his brain is a bubbling cauldron of paranoia and hatred and that he refused to answer my questions.
I tried to calmly ask him perfectly reasonable questions that I had prepared in advanced, but he wanted to rant and rave and yell at us instead. Hezbollah people behave similarly at times. It’s their choice.
Armin and I had a translator in the room with us. The decision to speak in English was his.
kzndr: When he avoided questions, or went off on tangents, there was no attempt to control him or redirect and refocus the conversation.
I think what you mean is no attempt was made to get him to clarify what he was saying so that it didn’t sound so bizarre and irrational. I admit that does seem to be the job of western journalists when they interview Islamists, these days, but it’s not MJT’s style. And that’s a good thing. There’s no shortage of western analysts and journalists who seem to think they have nothing better to do with their careers than make Islamism seem palatable to a western audience. This man has probably already dispensed hundreds of interviews to such western mouthpieces. How would it benefit anyone to read one more?
Michael,
Did you feel you were talking to an angry child?
Unfortunately reading the text and pronouncements of Islamic religious leaders (in English or as a translation from the Arabic) you comments are are often (not always) childish and immature.
Unfortunately there are also many in the West who come across the same way.
Erian’s jumbled and loopy responses mirror the Noam Chomsky view of America and her politics.
9/11 trutherism. check!
Jewish corruption of Arabic leaders. check!
Jews corrupting the Western thought process. check!
Hamas, revolutionary vanguard of the Palestinian people. check!
American Indian genocide – Manifest Destiny. check!
No Blood for Oil. check!
The Vietnam_Afghan_Iraq war quagmire allegory. check!
The distorted Lancet civilian casualty survey figures. check!
Sorry,
should be “their comments” and only one “are”
Fascinating interview, Michael!
Actually, the most interesting part of it for me was this, about allowing Palestinians into their countries:
Esam El-Erian: This is illegal. We cannot have non-citizens in our lands. They take our jobs.
This, to me, shows why we could never have a successful Israeli/Palestinian peace. Israel is too small to give up any territory and the West Bank and Gaza are much too small for their populations, so the only good solution I can think of is for the Palestinians to expand the West Bank and Gaza by grabbing up parts of other countries, or for “Palestine” to merge into an existing country. Obviously this is impossible, even into Egypt, which I think would be capable of absorbing their populations.
As for their conversation on 9/11, it was very interesting seeing them try to say that the USA caused 9/11 without actually admitting that was what they believed. It makes me think of Obama on the budget trying to deny it’s his problem …
D
@Soda,
Actually, one thing I’m willing to give Chomsky credit for is that he’s ripped on the 9/11 Truther movement before. So I’ll give an ideological opponent credit here for getting that part right.
Above and beyond that, I do agree: Erian was basically a verbal talking-points script for anti-Americanism. When he started yelping about “respect” and not interfering, I wanted to yell at the screen “Afghanistan not to house people that attack America then”. And when he pulled out the “oil” excuse, I wanted to yell again “Show me the oil fields in Afghanistan”.
Man, some of these guys are just mannequins wired for sound and programmed with simplistic scripts. Respect is earned, and it’s earned by **not aiding, abetting, and contributing to violent radicalism**. Once people get *THAT*, you’ll be surprised at how much respect you earn.
Gaaaaah! I just now got to the point where he tried to say that Quadaffi is the US’s “man”. Good God, this guy’s full of ****.
Anybody who makes it their mission to be loved by that man had better step back and re-examine their priorities.
Michael;
Terry Eilat’s comment hit the nail right on the head. I have spent countless hours in conversations just like the one you depict in this story.
I’ve had these conversations over the past 21 yrs in Saudi, Kuwait ect.. .ect… and almost every single one of them gets to the point of what we in the West would call “Irrational Logic”.
The ‘Art’ of argument is a common theme in the Arabic world.
How logical one tries to be is not near as important as appearing to have won the discussion.
Answering a question with a question has a whole different meaning in that part of the world.
Having said this, the MB and people like Esam El-Erian have a vision for the future of the world that is very different than most.
Can you imagine if you would have walked into the room with a female assistant rather than Armin Rosen?
Five months ago, the people of Egypt decided enough was enough!
The MB is determined to been to take this opportunity to bend Egypt to their vision.
I talk about this almost every day.. Coldansviewpoint@blogspot.com
Great work Michael!
I loved Michael’s interview style here by the way.
I am surprised that anyone is surprised though. This incoherent ranting sounds like a lot of papers in the the Middle east and like most of the Muslim blogs I read. The interview is like many of the arguments I have on those blogs, minus the bit where my comments get altered or deleted…
This guy Esam El-Erian reminds me of a man I met in a Bible study class who claimed that Obama wants to implant computer chips in Americans to control them. Every skeptical question that I posed received a weirder response — never any facts, just more, ever more complex conspiracy theories.
Is there something about religious fanaticism that leads to this paranoid style?
I think that Thomas Pynchon is the one who said something about “God” being the biggest conspiracy theory of them all, so maybe fanaticism takes that mode of thinking and applies it to everything.
It all makes sense if you just understand that it’s all being manipulated from behind the scenes . . .
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
yesjb: Did you feel you were talking to an angry child?
Not really, no. He came across as the belligerent supremacist thug that he is.
When I politely asked him about how he felt about Egypt’s pre-Nasser liberal era, he said this to me:
“I hope after the success of the revolution, if the revolution has an impact in Saudi Arabia, that the Saudis will only produce the oil they need, not what you need. If they keep their own oil for their own future generations, that will teach the Americans to respect others and not to insult the Saudis and the Arabs.”
I knew then that it was only a matter of time before the interview went off the rails. I’m trying to imagine an American answering a polite and reasonable question from an Arab journalist that way, but it’s hard.
The Obama administration will have great fun “engaging” with these guys. Our diplomats will be more polite when they’re accused of backing Assad and Qaddafi, but they’ll get the picture. Guys like El-Erian can’t help themselves.
I’ve met some brilliant people here, though, who have taught me a lot in a very short time.
…minus the bit where my comments get altered or deleted…
I know how that goes! It’s really annoying when the bastards selectively delete your comments, so that it looks like you had no response to the “great” counter-arguments people threw your way. It’d be better if they just deleted ALL of your comments, but of course then there wouldn’t be any context for all the dingleberries of wisdom coming from the brainwashed masses, nor any justification for all the verbal abuse and the ethnic slurs. Really makes me wonder what the US is even trying to accomplish in societies where dog and pony shows like that constitute rational debate.
Horace, I first heard that “computer chips in my brain being monitored by military satellites” theory from a drug addict in 1982, and she was an atheist. I’d buy into a theory that paranoid personalities are linked to obsessive personalities, but the only link that’s got to religion is that religions also are sometimes attractive to people with obsessive personalities.
Terrific interview, a real window into the feverish mind of an Islamic extremist. I really appreciate that you didn’t edit it to make it more coherent. The views I already knew, but the lack of coherence was most revealing.
It also shines a spotlight on the most confounding aspect of dealing with the Arab/Muslim world. How can you engage in useful discussions and reach lasting accords with people who are completely irrational?
DAD1: Can you imagine if you would have walked into the room with a female assistant rather than Armin Rosen?
Sure. Armin and I walked in with an uncovered Egyptian female translator, who turned out to be unnecessary since he speaks fluent English. He was polite to her. Plenty of uncovered woman walk around Cairo. She works here as a journalist and has met him before. It’s not a big deal. He’s crazy, but he isn’t the Taliban.
Actually, Craig (#52), I was wondering about religious fanaticism specifically, not religion generally, so perhaps one could suggest that obsessive personalities are attracted to religious fanaticism and that fanatical religious movements therefore attract those obsessive personality types . . .
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
Micheal Totten: “Some of the people I’ve met are very impressive”
I would like to hear a bit more about these impressive people. It would give me at least a glimmer of hope for the region.
I think people are quite good at noticing simple rules and applying them unconsciously.
In Islam there is an underlying message that God wants Muslim supremacy, wants war and oppression to support that supremacy and demands that Muslims hate others so that they are prepared for war and to be oppressors… beyond that it is clearly stated that one wins wars through dishonesty, ie propaganda…
So it is quite philosophically consistent, quite pious for believers to exaggerate and lie in order to create the conditions for hatred, war and oppression. Since part of this structure involves is a significant social barrier to trusting information from outsiders there is this odd hallucinogenic feel to people’s beliefs. Lies are made up easily, unconsciously, by everyone and yet they are trusted more than reliable information.
It’s a pattern even a child could pick up, this isn’t complicated. And you see it everywhere.
I have an acquaintance who is an ex-Ahmandi from Pakistan. He quit Islam because he was so appalled watching his friends and family celebrate when 9/11 happened. But when he would try to corner them on how could such slaughter be acceptable, many would simply switch and deny that Muslims committed 9/11… They’re so slippery. And I don’t think he can understand it either, that’s why he couldn’t stay one of them.
I just pray that some day the idea of objective reality, that there is a reality out there, real people to have empathy for.. not just war and lies to jocky for position takes root. And I hope that the constant miasma of slippery lies that the Islamists exude is seen for what it is.
@Mike Totten First time here, I take it.
No unfortunately not. I’ve followed your campaign to patronise and stereotype any foreigner that fails to agree you know what’s best for their country quite closely, and read the comments section of your blog with dread as the realisation dawns that the side responsible for so much violence this past decade are not only not shutting up, but getting stupider and more brazen.
@M Totten
No unfortunately not. I’ve followed your campaign to patronise and stereotype any foreigner that fails to agree you know what’s best for their country quite closely, and read the comments section of your blog with dread as the realisation dawns that the side responsible for so much violence this past decade are not only not shutting up, but getting stupider and more brazen
David H Dennis writes, “Israel is too small to give up any territory and the West Bank and Gaza are much too small for their populations, so the only good solution I can think of is for the Palestinians to expand the West Bank and Gaza by grabbing up parts of other countries, or for “Palestine” to merge into an existing country.”
You touch upon some of the “peace process” consequences few will broach – that in the unlikely event there *were* a settlement, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt would look to dismantle the refugee camps and tell the residents “You have a country now. Get out!” Can the West Bank and Gaza absorb them all? No way. That will stir up those irredentist sentiments Palestinians don’t hide well, with demands they need more land – the Galilee and/or the Negev, for example.
But there’s yet another thing going on. Jordan knows a Palestinian state is a threat to them, and some officials have suggested Jordan will *oppose* the PA’s request for recognition at the UN. They know that many Palestinians have designs on the *east* bank of the Jordan, as well as on Israeli territory.
As to El-Arian, he is to anyone of a more or less rational bent a total wack-job. Quoting Cheech & Chong on Joni Mitchell’s “Twisted”, the dude is “twisted, crazy, oobie-shoobie, flip city”. Yet such thinking and argumentation finds resonance within much of Arab/Islamic culture. To any who insist we’re all pretty much the same, wanting the best for our families and other such pablum, clearly we’re not.
The volume of facts, information and context that Ronan failed to process in writing his smear is utterly mind boggling.
“I hope after the success of the revolution, if the revolution has an impact in Saudi Arabia, that the Saudis will only produce the oil they need, not what you need. If they keep their own oil for their own future generations, that will teach the Americans to respect others and not to insult the Saudis and the Arabs.”
What was he even arguing here? That the KSA should stop selling crude to the West, in order that they may reserve their oil exclusively to fuel the great industrial and technological might of Arabia?
Good point about the female issue, but I can’t name a MB leader or senior member who is a female!
The MB is better at being ‘polite’ in the presence of others, but their beliefs towards females are well known.
I think Ronan is a KABOBfest tard, over here spying on the enemy. I recognize the style, as well as the intellectual dishonesty on display with the drastic change of direction from first comment to second.
Ronan – I don’t know how you could possibly reach that conclusion. The overwhelming majority of this interview is the subject’s own words. I see nothing that indicates a patronizing or stereotypical attitude except for the subject’s attitude toward the U.S. and Americans.
Benjamin Kerstein: I see nothing that indicates a patronizing or stereotypical attitude except for the subject’s attitude toward the U.S. and Americans.
Ronan has the exact same reactionary attitude toward the US and Americans that Esam El-Erian has. That’s why he does not like my blog.
I dont know what a KABOBfest tard is so cant really reply to that. It seems to me that leaving aside some of Esam El-Erians more idiotic comments his basic premise, that US foreign policy in the region has been counterproductive to US national interests and has been a factor in stunting economic and political growth in the region, is the same as the neo-cons leading up to Iraq 2003. I am also of the opinion that that war was a criminal and stupid act, beneath a country like the United States, both in its justification and implementation. But thats a personal opinion and not really one worth rehashing here. My views on Israel would also not find much support here, although its not exactely Robert Fisk territory, and specifically operation cast lead could be categorized in the same terms as the Iraq War. Once again this is only a political position so Im not in the mood to argue over it. (As Israel/Palestine conversations generally go no-where.)
My problem with Michael Totten in this case is he went to Egypt with the opportunity of rising above the provocations of an obvious embitterred ideologue and enlightening us with some useful information on the role the Muslim Brotherhood hope to play in the ‘new Egypt’, their comittment to democracy, the recent turmoil in the organisation, their possible economic policies and any other number of things that we dont know, but instead he got involved in a shouting match and a regurgatation of the same old 2001 talking points. My problem is also that his style, once again an opinion, is patronising and reliant on stereotyping foreigners. Just once it would be nice to see a US media personality listen to a side he doesnt agree with and not feel the need to blugeon them into agreeing with him.
The majority of scholarship, both from left and right, is closer to Esam El-Erians view than Mike Tottens. Reading actually informed commentators like Geoffrey Wawro, Lawrence Freedman, Marc Lynch, Stephen Walt (I know that wont go down well)to name but a few will back that up, even if they obviously wouldnt support some of his more insane ramblings.
My point about this mindset being responsible for so much violence the past decade stands on its own and doesnt need to be factually backed up
I dont know what a KABOBfest tard is so cant really reply to that
Seriously? Because, after reading that last comment I can’t imagine another environment where you’d fit in better. yet, you deny even knowing about that blog? I find that strange. Since the KABOB festers are infamous liars I’m going to assume you are a contributer there, and are just lying about it in order to try to trick people into trying to engage with you. On the off chance I’m wrong, here’s the blog address:
http://www.kabobfest.com/
Send them an email and I bet they’ll add you to their staff. You’ll fit right in. And you’ll be a lot less traumatized by their version of reality than you claim you’ve been here.
Jeez, Ronan, you talk about Michael stereotyping foreigners, yet you miss the point: That was Esam El-Erian’s own words. You want to find blame for perceiving his rhetoric as a stereotype, I think you should 1. Look to El-Erian, then 2. Look in the mirror. Because the only one with the bludgeon in this interview was El-Erian, not Michael, and trying to portray that otherwise is indicative of a deep internal bias leading you to draw conclusions in contradiction to the data present.
But keep on trying to accuse Michael of doing something he’s not. It’s fun to see people make fools of themselves by retailing unsupported assertions.
Can we just write off Ronan as a marxist anti-imperialism anti-western anti-whatever tool and get back to discussing things that matter? This leftist entity did not come to MJT’s blog to engage, it came here to insult and offend.
@M Totten:
“There’s no shortage of bizarre irrationality in the Arab world, but no one else I’ve talked to since my arrival in Cairo is even remotely like this guy. Some of the people I’ve met are very impressive.”
I feel so much better already. You talked to what? 20 people?, and the rest are democracy activists, human rights believers and Jeffersonians.
Moslem Brothers are tiny, really insignificant group that may get a negligible, virtually invisible 30%-40% of votes, may be slightly more, like 60-70%.
Main thing is, we have voting, therefore we have a new democracy in Egypt, therefore a new great success of US foreign policy and neocons and Obamanistas in particular.
Squires,
MB guy: “I hope after the success of the revolution, if the revolution has an impact in Saudi Arabia, that the Saudis will only produce the oil they need, not what you need. If they keep their own oil for their own future generations, that will teach the Americans to respect others and not to insult the Saudis and the Arabs.”
What was he even arguing here? That the KSA should stop selling crude to the West, in order that they may reserve their oil exclusively to fuel the great industrial and technological might of Arabia?
No, he wants the Saudis to use their oil as a weapon against the US, in order to coerce us into doing things we don’t want to do and to make concessions we don’t want to make. Extortion and coercion are recurrent themes amongst Islamists. The pathetic part is that it works so very well that the victims often come to the conclusion that they submitted voluntarily. This technique has been on display in Lebanon for several years now and I suspect we’re going to see its pre-eminence in Egypt as well in the near future, regardless of how hard MJT’s alleged Egyptian liberals try to fight against it.
However, it won’t work against the US and that’s what has western leftists so upset.
the whole time, i couldnt help thinking: this guy is a dead ringer for howard dean, ya know?? maybe not his looks. but he sure sounds like him. ……
MJT: So, all this rhetoric you are saying about America, where do you all your facts?
Esam El-Erian:[licking a piece of lead foil], it appears you have the joooo in you. Cuckoo, cuckoo, cuckoo.
MJT: Check please!
What I got from that is the same thing I’ve gotten from every interview or Q&A with an Arab: “Leave us alone, and stop neglecting us!” Schizoid.
“Believe me, the Muslim Brotherhood is considered insane by plenty of Egyptians. No one else I’ve talked to has bombarded me with this kind of insanity. There are 39 other political parties in this country.”
Majority of which are rather irrelevant and some of which are more islamist than Muslim Brotherhood. And unfortunately only Muslim Brotherhood has the drive, the money and the organization, other parties are trying but are far behind MB. But I do admire your optimism and do hope MB will get irrelevant. Soon.
As for the insanity, I had similar kind of discussions with “normal” Muslims. After couple of times one gets used to this “style”.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14153583
It looked much neater than really it was back in February. Egyptians had just emulated the Tunisians by overthrowing an authoritarian president who had seemed secure behind a brutal, well-organised police state.
Really? So Jeremy Bowen thought the future looked bright for Egyptians back in February?
And it is clear that the process of change that has come to the Arab world is not neat, quick or easy.
But now, he doesn’t? What a bummer. I wonder what it is that Jeremy Bowen thinks it is we can learn from Jeremy Bowen about the alleged Arab Spring, though? Isn’t he admitting he got it wrong 6 months ago? But, he’s not wrong now? Shouldn’t we be reading articles written by people who didn’t already get it wrong? Or am I just dreaming here?
Well, lets see what Jeremy Bowen said 6 months ago:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12325128
The country’s only properly organised mass political movement outside the ruling party is the Muslim Brotherhood, and it would do very well in any free election. Unlike the jihadis, it does not believe it is at war with the West. It is conservative and non-violent. But it is highly critical of Western policy in the Middle East.
Oh! It’s the moderate Muslim Brotherhood! He’s talking about this guy you interviewed, Michael! Jeremy Bowen is a big fan! Or at least, he was 6 months ago! I guess now we’re at “Well, that didn’t work out so well, but everyone knows these things take decades anyway…”
Ronan,
“My point about this mindset being responsible for so much violence the past decade stands on its own and doesnt need to be factually backed up”
Every argument needs to be back up factually. Its the basis for rational thought and discourse. Without it we become like the MB or like yourself.
That you would even think otherwise says a great deal about your own mindset, and I don’t mean that as a compliment.
Its clear you can’t support your own arguments but would rather just cast aspersions on others because thy don’t fit your own point of view.
Your arrogance is quite astonishing but then anyone who makes statements such as yours, devoid of facts, but full of opinions, your own and others and trots them out as the last word or God’s truth deserves all the opprobrium heaped on him.
Interesting interview! Way to go!
All I can say is that I know now what Bohner meant when he said talking to Obama about spending is like talking to jello. Talking to the Muslim Brotherhood about Israel and the US is like talking to jello. There is a lot of lip flapping but little substance to grasp.
My head just exploded.
If this guy’s inane babble indicates the mentality of all fanatical Muslims, we’re in for a long hard war. “Epic”, comes to mind.
Couldn’t have phrased it better, yesjb.
Great interview Michael in that you transcribe what “cognition” goes on in a MB representative.
Ronan states there isn’t any need to back up his comments with facts, particularly the claim that the mindset here is responsible for so much violence in the ME.
Iran – the Mullahs backed the Shah’s coup and now executes more per capita than any other country including China.
Pakistan -continues to project terror into India and Afghanistan.
Syria – son of a butcher continues his father’s MO.
Lebanon -prisoner to Iran’s proxy.
Gaza – the continuing drama of bad Palestinian theater.
Libya – need I say more
Sudan – more Islamic terror and genocide.
Egypt – a street looking for jobs, food and sanity.
Turkey – unwilling to meet the bar of EU admission
Yemen – a wonderful tourist destination
KSA – an elite sustained solely through oil revenues.
And yet WE and our mindset created all the violence. Bravo Ronan!
That’s all the bait I take until facts are offered.
He somewhat inadvertently let out a very interesting nugget of truth: “They take our jobs”. I don’t think you could create a more pithy summary of the typical Arab Muslim “solidarity” with Palestinians.
Michael, superb interview! I have two quick observations:
1) El-Erian says: “I study history. You might not be convinced by what I say, but this will all be clear after secrets become available in documents.” This type of sentence occurs VERY VERY frequently in talks with Arab politicians, leaders, and spokespersons (at least the ones who are clearly anti-US and anti-Israel). They make some grand assertion and then “back it up” by stating that they have no evidence right now, but it will make itself manifest in some hazy, ill-defined time in the future. This is absolutely classic.
2) It’s so interesting to see El-Erian express openly his xenophobia: “We cannot have non-citizens in our lands. They take our jobs.” (Of course, this begs the question: why not MAKE them citizens???) He adds that Palestinians have to return to Israel even if they have been living in Egypt (or Lebanon or Jordan) for 200 years! Next to Egypt, Israel is a role model for absorption of immigrants!
The value of Toten’s interview here will be lost on the folks at our State Department; I can’t for the life of me see why anyone at all thinks “Outreach” to such creatures as this Muslim Brotherhood member will yield anything.
But, our current State Department and White House coat-tail-riding personnel will keep reaching out even as their fingernails are pulled away from their cuticles. They’re beyond teaching.
How we voted these naifs into office and continue paying their salaries without recalls is beyond my understanding.
This guy is not crazy or stupid. He is a clever demagogue and twister who will say anything to gain power. And his gang probably will take over Egypt and make more trouble for Israel. Arafat did it for money. I wonder why he does it. You can bet he has an ulterior motive.
Ronan,
I have to say that I found your post very amusing in a sad way.
Michael is condescending and bludgeons the people he’s interviewing? What bizarro world do you live in? I’ve been reading Michael’s blogs for several years now and I’d say one of the enormous differences between his interviews and those of most journalists is how he allows the viewpoints to shine through, warts and all with a small dose of informed commentary that can easily be separated from the rest of the article.
And quoting the likes of Walt as an educator/scholar on the subject? Yikes! He represents everything that’s broken in the field. And no, we’re not interested in anti-Jewish conspiracy theories here except to laugh at them and stare in wonder at those foolish enough to believe them.
Well said Howard. People know MJT. When I visit more Liberal blogs I am denounced as a MJT neocon with remarks reflecting Ronan’s. When I visit more conservative blogs, the remarks are something like the one I recently posted. I’m a butt kissing disciple of Saint Michael the Deluded.
This reaffirms something for me. Reason is not on the extremes. It is a tougher fight to hold one’s center against the anger, than join the partisan madness of either the reckless or feckless endangerment advocated at the ends of the spectrum.
Great interview.
Thank you, Michael.
#76 –
“Unlike the jihadis, it does not believe it is at war with the West.”
That is, beyond jihad against the West being their defining purpose.
“It is conservative and non-violent.”
The Sahara, being a desert, exists in a state of nearly constant rainfall.
#72 – I know how the game works – including the other side of the coin in which they use the profits of selling us the very oil they threaten to withdraw from us, against us. And of course, to fatten up their ruling class.
It was this part: “If they keep their own oil for their own future generations, that will teach the Americans to respect others and not to insult the Saudis and the Arabs.”
…that makes it sound like he was advocating the Arabs take their toys and go home, and enter a period of isolationism to teach us that we can’t live without them and the bounty Allah has bestowed upon their magnificence.
Except, of course, that without outside civilizations to sell their oil to, they have nothing. We would recover and adapt to life without them, and they would once more become a largely irrelevant backwater once their wealth had dissipated. All the better for us, all the better for the countries whose populations they prey on for slave-laborers and “maids”.
Squires,
It was this part: “If they keep their own oil for their own future generations, that will teach the Americans to respect others and not to insult the Saudis and the Arabs.”
The first part, that you bolded, is the threat. He was just being deceptive in indicating that he wanted Saudis to do that in order to help their own people, rather than to use withholding the oil to coerce the United States. His later words, which I bolded, where he admits the point of his big idea is to teach Americans a lesson we won’t soon forget puts the lie to earlier words. Presumably, after we have been humbled and come begging for mercy, we will get the oil we need. Provided we do as we are told.
A real piece of work, that guy. I wonder if he he even stops to think what would happen to Saudi Arabia, if they ever actually did stop selling their oil. I mean, besides the fact that somebody would decide to come and take it from them, what in the hell does he think the Saudis are going to do to earn a living without the oil revenue?
PS @86, I’d really like to see the look on this guy’s face if the Saudis did get their asses invaded for oil and infidel soldiers were slumming around Mecca and strip searching Muslim pilgrims. I bet he’d have another brilliant idea to deal with that, too, right?
But not to worry. These guys are totally moderate. Pacifists, even. Almost Gandhi-like. We shouldn’t have any trouble getting along with them…
I think our different interpretations are hinged simply on a difference between how much he’s lying to us vs. how much he’s lying to himself. I wouldn’t put it past him to actually believe (even if he knows it’s pure fantasy) that the Arab world is on top (while also, of course, being an oppressed victim of outsiders).
I’ve gotten the impression that quite a few people int he West’s political left don’t comprehend how ephemeral Arab wealth is, either. This may be a lack of perception, the BS of the education system, or simply because their used to thinking of wealth as something acquired, rather than created – something Marxism shares with all the other plunder-cultures history has produced.
#87 – I don’t think the US would be willing to cross that line, or even find it necessary. Europe would be in a much tighter spot, but I doubt they could even project the force required. Who would that leave? Russia, China, Iran (once weakened, why not grab up those resources and come to the “rescue” of Mecca)? Either of the first two, and strip searches would be the least of their worries.
I think that this MB guy’s point of view is really more mainstream than you would believe. Arabs and others of the East tend to hide their true beliefs under a thick veneer of culturally instilled politeness. I have had eerily similar conversations with Arabs and Turks but only ones who I knew well enough to discuss any topic with. Once you make a point that they cannot logically counter (or point out something even mildly negative about Islam or Muhammad), they take insult and then the crazy conspiracy theories, irrationality, and paranoia come out. I would say to people in the West cheering for muslim democracies to be careful what they wish for.
Good intervue, it is too bad that so many people commenting show a lack of historical understanding. Until the Battle of Tours (AD732)the Moslem world was the leading country under the reigning Caliph. When the Caliph and his Generals were killed and the Moslem degenerated into its present world under the control of its religious leaders. The Molem Brotherhood in Egypt is a leader in this attempt to control the Moslem world. It is not a democratic movement and they hate the US. We need to understand what religious fanatism is doing in the world and understand how to respond to it. Jimmy Carter botched the job and now our leader is following in his footsteps.
@Maxtrue
Do you really think that by finding fault with specific US policies that im (a) comparing the US to any of the countries you mentioned or (b) excusing the brutality of those regimes. Thats the last Iv got to say to be honest as this is getting tiresome
Excerpt from a recently declassified Eisenhower Administration Memo:
“ President Eisenhower, in an internal discussion, observed to his staff, and I’m quoting now, “There’s a campaign of hatred against us in the Middle East, not by governments, but by the people.” The National Security Council discussed that question and said, “Yes, and the reason is, there’s a perception in that region that the United States supports status quo governments, which prevent democracy and development and that we do it because of our interests in Middle East oil. Furthermore, it’s difficult to counter that perception because it’s correct.”
Michael, this is tough for me to explain well at 1 am, but as I am sure you know, languages are much more than their words and grammar, and in my opinion, can’t really be learned simply from a textbook. And as such, it is possible for someone (such as el-Erian) to be “fluent” in a language (such as English) without being fluent. As I was reading through this interview, I found myself translating his words back into (Lebanese/Syrian) Arabic, than translating them back into the thoughts in English that he was intending to convey. As I have lived half my life (I’m 26) in the US, and half in Lebanon, I feel I am well positioned to do this competently. And I will do this for you if you would like.
But what he was essentially trying to convey throughout the entire course of the interview, is the disgusting truth contained in the excerpt above.
We HAVE been propping up those corrupt degenerate regimes (ie Mubarak, al-Saud, al-Khalifa, al-Sabah, etc.)that he was referring to, against both their own people, and even, in my opinion, well-considered consideration of our own long-ter
My point that this mindset is responsible for creating so much violence in the region is obviously a reaction to the various US interventions in the region, im not saying its the only source of violence by any means but we were talking specifically about US policy. Its nothing unique to the US, great powers have always generaly behaved in such a way, but for various people here to ignore that is delusional.
@ Howard I. Michaels first question was: ‘You guys were completely taken by surprise by this, weren’t you?
Which personally strikes me as overly agressive and a poor way to build rapport (also factually inaccurate as the MB were involve in the protest, at least the youth movement) His second question about the ‘liberal era before Nasser’ seemed a further attempt to provoke a reaction. Why cant someone make these reasonabl enough points or hold a different opinion without being accused of being some class of pro Islamist, anti imperialist Marxist? Iv no problem with Michael, he strikes me as a decent type, I just, personally, think most of what he writes (exhibit a darkness in Palestine) is horses&&t.
@Maxtrue 88 Really? If everyone else is disagreeing with you perhaps its you thats the extremist.
As I say thats it from me. I guess my second post was a bit agressive so i apologise for that but Iv elaborated as much as I could be bothered and I realise noones going to actually reply to the merits of the argument
Sammy,
While it’s obviously true that the United States supported Hosni Mubarak (and I don’t blame Egyptians for being angry at us for that), the idea that we’re trying to stop the revolutions in Libya and Syria is sand-poundingly stupid. So is everything he said about 9/11.
Ronan: Michaels first question was: ‘You guys were completely taken by surprise by this, weren’t you? Which personally strikes me as overly agressive and a poor way to build rapport
Everyone here has told me they were surprised and amazed by what happened. The Muslim Brotherhood was also not on the streets at all at the beginning. Even the protest organizers were surprised. They only expected a few hundred people to show up. You didn’t know that, but El-Erian and I both knew it when I asked him that question.
His second question about the ‘liberal era before Nasser’ seemed a further attempt to provoke a reaction.
Wrong. The reason I asked that question is because he said “we had a liberal life” as though that was a good thing, which surprised me a little. I wanted him to expand on that a bit.
Instead he decided to act like a belligerent jerk. The fact that you didn’t notice the obvious is, I suppose, not surprising since you acted like a jerk in your first comment here. You and he have plenty in common.
Anyway, you said you were leaving. I think that would be best for everyone involved at this point.
Marc Lynch
The role of the Muslim Brotherhood in the ranks of Tahrir points to one of the greatest and most sharply contested legacies of the revolution: Who can legitimately claim to speak for the revolution? The loose coalition of youth activists and liberal politicians warn loudly that the Islamists might “hijack” the revolution. But the Muslim Brotherhood youth were in Tahrir as well, fighting hard. So were a wide coalition of workers, ordinary people, and the “Ultras” which have been receiving a bit of attention of late. Indeed, that diversity is precisely what made Tahrir so amazing. But if the Brothers were a key part of the assembled forces on Tahrir, then why do they not have equal claim on its legacy
(http://lynch.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/06/12/tense_times_in_egypt)
You can argue over what drove the revolution, and it seems clear that it wasnt the Muslim Brotherhood, but the claim that they were ‘totally taken surprise by it’ is clearly nonsense as they have shown themselves to be the most organised and capable political entity in post Mubarack Egypt. So the question is unfair and misleading.
Peculiar the fact that Im the only one singled out for being a ‘jerk’ considering the abuse Iv gotten on your page, the leeway you give to the misbehaviour of people that agree with you in the comments section, your own behaviour in the past decade (specifically Chris Hitchens related), and the company you keep (once again Hitchens, but Steyn also and the entire collection of armchair warriors)
‘the idea that we’re trying to stop the revolutions in Libya and Syria is sand-poundingly stupid.’
Really? You dont think the United States( as well as the French, British, Russians, Iranians, Chinese and so on) arent really going to attempt, whether successful or not, to direct the post revolutionary Mid East into a political reality that suits them? This doesnt have to be done through explicit military or covert action, but through targeted funding, subtle diplomacy and propaganda.
Moreover the reality still hasnt been dealt with that a number of the points Esam El-Erian made are valid and are implicitly supported by the neo-con arguments leading up to Iraq.
Also for what its worth I am not ‘anti-American’ or a foreign policy ‘liberal’, this is a historically US conservative position
My point that this mindset is responsible for creating so much violence in the region is obviously a reaction to the various US interventions in the region
Every reasonable assumption one makes when listening to people from the middle east turns out to be wrong.
These are the most alien cultures from us imaginable.
You have to start from scratch if you want to understand them. And since not everyone can do that, there are lots of people who are wrong about everything in the middle east.
OTT, but:
Craig: “I don’t think the British even admitted the US was a sovereign state at all until about 1850″
No. The first British ambassador to the USA was in 1791. Not to mention the Treaty of Paris in 1783 that officially ended the war.
Translation of conceptions is often wrong.”justice”,democracy,”deserving living” in Arabic is not the same as in English( not to say the wrong translation).
In Russia,for example the great number of recently appeared democrats demanded the terrible KGB distruction and “liberal empire” establishment.The lexicon of the west democracies is popular in backward countries during revolution or coup`detat.But realities of the past soon win, and “democracy” is the abusive word in today`s Russia
Ronan, if you’re going to condemn me for being friends with Christopher Hitchens, then you need to leave. Just go. We have nothing to say to each other.
Excuse me.
Ronan, is this you?
http://www.delexical.com/tangents/2011/01/31/for-obama-a-case-of-there-goes-the-neighbourhood/
EVERY
WHERE,
R
Ronan, think about what you just said. If conservatives opine Michael and by extension, me are wimps too blind to see evil’s motives and progressives think Michael, and by extension, me are blood thirsty neocons, then “I must be an extremist”, shows your irrational thought process. To a rational person it looks like Michael sits between the extremes which indeed he does.
Mr. Rubin asks how “liberals” can support an increasingly “illiberal” Democrat Party now intent on transforming the notion of “liberal”. What was once an International Advocacy for Liberal Democracy has become either isolationism or a Pro-Democracy push more concerned with unseating any leadership that was friendly towards the US while pushing fantasies that Democracy in itself will lead to liberal democracy.
Republicans tend to see all of Islam a problem and are having difficulty laying out a reasonable plan to sustain more aggressive pressure to isolate and defeat the worst of our adversaries in the face of economic difficulties and an irrational ME street twisted through years of crappy leadership and religion.
The position staked out here tends to fall between these extremes and your claims falls woefully short.
As for the ME, you offer no facts for your claims. With all the oil, many powers will try to influence events so they can have access which the oil producers have no problem supplying. But that is hardly explains US policy. You should review the US Intelligence Report of 1954 posted by Pipes. Leaving aside your unsupported claim that MB above made truthful assertions, the fundamental problem has been that ME countries have either supported Western adversaries or have violated any reasonable standard of human rights while engaged in sectarian warfare disruptive to both the ME economic interests and the world. And although this started long before WW2, we all know what the Mufti brought back from Berlin to Egypt. The narrative of the MB no matter the legitimacy you attempt to describe to them still echo the Mufti’s words. Hoe easily you dismiss their drivel or their history ascribing legitimacy as simply their right to vote.
Despite your deflections and claims about conservatism, you’re just Victor on steroids. Human cooperation has been shown to require rules and enforcement. The larger the non kin group, the greater importance to maintain the legitimacy of that enforcement especially because rules require punishment often with no immediate selective advantage to the individual require to take action. This is not neoconservatism, but human behavior which you can plumb on the interent. Walt (besides his BS) rejects Democratic Peace Theory which asserts democracies rarely fight each other. Actually, more accurately, liberal democracies rarely fight each other. You obviously reject this too suggesting the idea to inculcate liberal values in the ME or punish those violating them as bringing violence to the ME.
First, such violence and oppression always has been there and the events I listed for countries above are largely the result of actions having little to do with the US. Second, going back to the Shah’s coup and forward to today -apparent in Pakistan and other places, refusing to intervene and influence has enormous consequences for the West. The Mullah’s backed the Shah’s coup for good reason. Today, the Egyptian government can’t feed its people. The Syrian government hides secret WMD installations while it butchers its people and makes a deal with the Devil. Sudan buries many hundreds in graves. Hizb’Allah holds Lebanon hostage. Despite your implied neorealism and bogus historical facts, cooperation in Post revolution ME depends on the ability of Muslims to rise about radical Islam and enforce the rules the majority of the world has accepted (at least in leadership statements) govern legitimate human behavior. The consequence of failure to impose international justice will result in more war and the fallout. It appears that only you defend 17th century mindset that has indeed brought violence to the ME. And that mindset is clear in the interview above.
“Like “give it a try”. You cannot reconstruct the sentence as “give a try to it”” -Ronan
And why not Ronan? Give it a try means “attempt it”. Or, give an attempt to it.
[try - Make an attempt or effort to do something: "he tried to regain his breath"; "none of them tried very hard"; "he tried the maneuver".
Noun: An effort to accomplish something; an attempt: "Mitterrand was elected president on his third try".]
I see your difficulties start and proceed from the linguistic level.
Thanks Render..
Michael,
Great expose of orthodox MB thinking. And thanks for having the guts to go Cairo and obtain it. I have heard much the same conspiracy-driven drivel from two other sources: from ayatollahs and hujatollahs (although expressed more politely) when I was in Iran back in 2008; and from hardcore liberals I know in this country. (For anyone unfamiliar with the rampant, paranoid conspiracy-theorizing that blankets the Muslim–not just Arab–world, read Daniel Pipes’ “The Hidden Hand”). While you’re certainly correct that that (most of) the MB are not Taliban, it’s also true that in the end their goals–a regional, and eventually, global Islamic state–are virtually identical.
MT,
A question, if you’re still checking here: do you speak (much) Arabic? I’d be willing to bet that such an interview conducted in Arabic would be even more revealing, as El Erian would not be able to hide behind acceptable weasel words in English.
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/07/11/in-israel-archaeologists-unearth-bibles-bad-guys/?intcmp=sem_outloud&intcmp=obnetwork
Before the US,,,,, (just some humor)
Well done, Michael. Now you are ready to interview my co-workers, 19 nuts engaged in different levels of anti-Americanism, sharing the same hatred of Israel. Nineteen El-Erians. Oh, the contortions to hold my daily bread with one hand and my ideas with the other. [Laughs.]
Oh, and Ronan, while this is from a “neocon” source, I think it is always a good idea to see what the spectrum has to say (not to compare this writer with OBL or Galloway). Some salient points are cited regarding Palestinian’s desire for “peace”. It is very rational to ask ourselves what perverts the step towards peace. I hardly think the US and even Israel share the central blame. Of course, Israel might not have been restored in the first place in 1948, but I rather doubt, you would “give an attempt” or “give it a try” in defending the forced expulsion of millions of Jews.
http://frontpagemag.com/2011/07/15/31-opportunities-for-statehood-squandered-in-favor-of-genocide/
“I’ve met some brilliant people here, though, who have taught me a lot in a very short time.”
Well, some of us are waiting anxiously to read about those engagements. Please.
This Ronan character sounds like a cookie-cutter Chomsky product. Same exact talking points, same exact reasoning and rationale and same exact interpretation of global affairs and policy through the same exact twisted anti-US prism.
I’ve talked to a number of people like this before, there is certainly no use in providing facts or rational arguments to this mindset, its a US-version of the MB fool that M.Totten interviewed. This kind of rationale, that US is the key to all follies and wrongs in the region, can only develop in someone who views the region in a patronizing and antagonistic manner, someone who’s never traveled nor talked to the people living there. Someone who doesnt understand that there are dozens of other important forces and facts shaping events there. This is the typical Chomskyist view of the world, that US actions are the sole creator and catalyst of events and grievances, that the regional power games between Iran, Turkey, Egypt and S.Arabia are irrelevant just because US is actively looking out for its interests in the region. I wonder if Chomsky and his acolytes are this concerned over Iran’s meddling and interference with her neighbors as much as they gloss over any trifling regional US engagement.
Maybe we need to let Ronan on a little secret. The roots of instability in this place are far more complex and go far earlier than any action by US. You would understand this if you’d do a little more reading (and some traveling) besides the usual Lynch, Walt and Freedman. Read Lee Smiths’ excellent “Strong Horse” for a start.
ps – Steven Walt, the subscriber to the “Jews control everything” theory is not a regional expert on this matter.
Some posters have sought to minimize the words of the MB as typified here…They’re not accurate, he didn’t really say that he didn’t mean it, he’s not fluent in English, his words were twisted, etc. etc.
But this is all machination and subterfuge to distract from the fact that this man like every other totalitarian supremacist be it religious or political all speak from the same playbook.
As they have already demonstrated, their knowledge is narrow,limited and pathetic.
They employ opinion, fiction and conspiracy instead of facts and research to support unsupportable arguments.
In many ways, these individuals are more dangerous than fanatics, because there is often a grain of truth to their comments and to the unsophisticated, unread and poorly informed they even make sense. It is simple-mindedness appealing to the simple-minded.
Many here have dealt with people like the MB and know from first hand experience as well as a study of Arab and Muslim culture that what people like Ronan, sammiman, Victor anand fnord and the like is just irredeemably tiresome nonsense.
Thanks for the drivel, guys.
Michael and friends,
I enjoy reading this blog, but I think many of you have fallen for a trick. So-called Ronen is using a tactic to divert the blog away from good conversation. While there is nothing wrong with debunking his ignorant statements. But he has virtually succeeded in hijacking the blog. Look how interesting the blog was until he took over and so many people felt the need to respond to his nonsense. Some of you may not believe me, but “ronen” is applying intentional sabotage. Notice the hebrew name. Could be real, but I doubt it, there aren’t many Israelis who are apologists for the Brotherhood, even on the left. Look at the authors he promotes, maybe its even one of them.
Its worse Mike because Chomsky’s followers rejected him after he refused to blame Israel and the US for taking down the WTC on Sept. 11, 2001. So as the Ronans echo Chomsky it now resonates in an even more rabid Left.
And note that Ronan’s tactic is a bit different than Chomsky. Ronan admits Syria and Iran are not to be compared. He claims he isn’t conservative or liberal. So he positions himself between the Far Left and places Center in the conservative camp on the right. He actually tries to suggest HE is centered and everything else is more extreme. America tends to be a bit more Center Right with less than 25% of the Democratic Party actually backing the most “liberal” policies. That would make this wing less than 12.5% of American voters. This is why Obama pivots prior to election time.
Personally, I am tired of the “Ronans”, but his remarks did attack the majority of commentators including the author of the blog. His particular attack by association on Michael’s friendship with Hitchens was calculated to escalate his contempt or Ronan would be forced to admit his stupidity.
As for the Muslim Brotherhood: http://english.ahram.org.eg/~/NewsContent/1/64/16468/Egypt/Politics-/Essam-El-Arian–Strikes-and-protests-are-legitimat.aspx
Nowhere do you see for public and international consumption of what he really thinks. Michael shed some light on that as the WH weighs its Muslim Brotherhood.
SLICK
BUT
STILL
SICK
M
not to be compared to the US, that is….sorry
Well done. Even though the interviewee did his best to dodge questions this is a fine piece of journalism.
Every bit of attention given to guys like this and their ignorant spewings brings the universe down a notch or two.
Guys like Esam El-Erian are brainwashed to be obsessed with America as their enemy. Individuals in the American administration are idiots for (recently) purporting to recognize the so called importance of the MB.
What a dumb game everyone is playing.
If the Muslim Brotherhood is to play a significant role in the “new” Egypt, then it is truly a sad situation for an historically great country.
Steve, diversion is part of the narrative game we see over and over. Why? Ahram won’t even post this link at their report of MB’s statement today. I know why. Michael should present it in Arabic at Ahram’s office in Egypt. So unfortunately, rebutting the misdirect nonsense is part of the comment thread as such BS is apparently all “they’ve” got.
Michael usually posts self-evident interviews so often the diversions and their rebuttals follow, not that every interview is without rational debate. It’s more an immune response to Ronan than anything else. The link above from Ahram gets it all back on thread……
Last thing as Ill respect Michaels wishes and leave.
@Mike R
I’m not a huge Chomsky fan, if I was to pick someone from the ‘radical’ camp I think Andrew Bacevich has a lot of interest to say. I also don’t agree with democratic peace theory, and think the attempt to install democracy through force is doomed to fail. Strange that I’ve been called a fan of Chomsky and a neo-realist, as far as I’m willing to designate I’m neither.
@Render.
No
@ Maxtrue 109
“Like “give it a try”. You cannot reconstruct the sentence as “give a try to it”” -Ronan
I don’t understand your point, perhaps it’s lost in translation
@ Maxtrue 114
I never said the US or Israel deserve to share the ‘central blame’, but some.
@ Mike R again
I live in the Middle East and find certain ‘cultural traits’ a pain at times (sorry I couldn’t think of a better way to articulate this)I’ve generally found this to be the case in most places Iv lived. (I also don’t volunteer or work for an NGO before the presumptions begin)
I’ve read Lee Smiths book, same as I read Michaels articles. I understand the roots of instability are complex and never claimed anything other. I’ve offered a very specific critique, based on the past decade mainly. This has been ignored completely. I have also never said the US retaining diplomatic relations with a regime makes it culpable for the regimes actions. (Selling weapons blindly and offering security guarantees and military training is another matter)
@ Mike Totten
I didn’t judge you for being friends with Hitchen’s, but for not standing up to ‘your sides’ overblown rhetoric to the same degree you do others. (A double standard if you will)Also the articles you’ve written about your ‘escapades’ in his company and your willingness to attack you’r opponents (Nir Rosen is one example)character.If you give it out you should be willing to take it.
I’m not going to stop replying if people keep misrepresenting my points and attacking me personally, perhaps I should be ignored if you don’t want me posting anymore.
@ Steve 118
I’m genuinely not ‘using a tactic to divert the blog away from good conversation’. My names Irish not Hebrew (a not e)
@ Maxtrue 119
I said I am conservative in foreign policy, I don’t think 9/11 was an inside job if this is what your implying and Iv failed to follow the logic of any of your posts. That’s probably a fault on my part so I apologise in advance
Marge: No. The first British ambassador to the USA was in 1791. Not to mention the Treaty of Paris in 1783 that officially ended the war.
Which doesn’t amount to much when it comes to British attitudes towards former British colonies that had rebelled against the British Empire, does it? The fact that the British to this day maintain an entirely different version of early US history than Americans themselves do, and that they believe their version is correct and our version is wrong, is obvious for all to see. I was able to pick up on this interview subject having been educated by the British from one simple sentence, for instance. I could go on the BBC right now and find British journalists who STILL talk as if the US is a rebellious colony
Ronan,
im not saying its the only source of violence by any means but we were talking specifically about US policy.
Actually, that is pretty much what you were saying. Do I have to go back and find the quote, or can you do that yourself? And nobody but you was talking specifically about US policy. Everyone else was talking about the Muslim Brotherhood.
As I say thats it from me.
I guess my second post was a bit agressive so i apologise for that but Iv elaborated as much as I could be bothered and I realise noones going to actually reply to the merits of the argument
Those weren’t arguments. They were lies. I’m not sure what you think the “merits” of dishonesty are, but maybe you can enlighten us about that? I’ve been wondering how it is that activists think they are doing good work by lying to everyone for a very long time.
” You insult Arab people.”
“Don’t confuse ‘Islam’ with ‘Arab.’”
“When you vote for Republicans who create wars in the Arab world, and when a million people take to the streets while having no effect on the administration, what can you call this?”
“Seeking our interests, not yours. Got problem with that?”
“You cannot convince me that the American administration is sticking to American values. ”
“I don’t particularly want to, nor do I see the need. They aren’t your values.”
etc.
Why argue with this thug?
The interview was primarily about an MB members view of US foreign policy, and the general consensus was that there was no merit to anything he said. Once again I dont agree with his overemphasis on the US, or a number of his points, but there was some ‘merit’ to his arguments. This is without even starting to get at why it matters what MB members individually think (Real power will more than likely continue to be held by the military)
How is, for example, my claim ‘that US foreign policy in the region has been counterproductive to US national interests and has been a factor in stunting economic and political growth’ (along with the many more benign personal opinions I offered) a lie? (Note the word factor)Are you trying to say that the worlds preeminent power has no affect on developments in the region?
Craig
Do I have to go back and find the quote, or can you do that yourself?
If you can find it then yes ill admit to have been lazy and over the top
…and there is a difference between this Brotherhood clown and the collective intellects of the members of the Obama administration?
Ronan
If you can find it then yes ill admit to have been lazy and over the top…
OK. Your claim:
im not saying its the only source of violence by any means but we were talking specifically about US policy.
Your previous comments:
cooment one from you: …(I) read the comments section of your blog with dread as the realisation dawns that the side responsible for so much violence this past decade are not only not shutting up, but getting stupider and more brazen.
You are clearly blaming ONE SIDE and not the other, for the violence of the past decade.
comment 2 from you: Jesus Mike is this the best you can do. I learnt absolutely nothing bar this character doesnt like US ‘foreign policy’, is this really going to remain your interview style? How about actually attempting to uncover information that is relevant rather than getting sucked down these rabbit holes
YOU LEARNED that this guy doesn’t like US policy. None of the rest of us are even concerned with whether or not the Muslim Brotherhood likes US foreign policy, and I think you’ve got MJT and the readers of this blog all wrong if you think this is a US foreign policy discussion forum, or that MJT goes on these trips to try to sell US foreign policy abroad or to try and influence it at home. I’ve been reading this blog for years and I think MJT is merely trying to understand what’s going on, and to explain his findings as best he can to others. It’s the people you like, such as Marc Lynch, who do “public diplomacy” for a living.
From your latest comment:
The interview was primarily about an MB members view of US foreign policy…
Why would you even think that? MJT has been talking about this trip for weeks… do you really believe he made this trip just to try to understand Egyptian attitudes towards US foreign policy? I thought you said you’d been reading this blog a while?
…your own behaviour in the past decade (specifically Chris Hitchens related), and the company you keep (once again Hitchens…
Very funny, but this is the wrong place to try thatt trick beacause we all remember what happened when totten was in lebanon with hitchens. That “behavior” was chris driven by passion to deface a swastika and then barely escaping nazi thugs with their lives.
Also michael is a journalist not a pundit and I have never seen him mention mark stein. Mike has never even shown a sign of being a conservative. You are totally out of your depth here. Stop making a fool of yourself.
Ronan, I’m not going to waste any more time diverting attension to your sloppiness (and that’s being gracious). I think we all know what you said (repeatedly). I suggest you pretend you never posted anything here and start over, but then I’m just one frequenter here. Next time please be very specific and focus your critique on particular lines or comments supported by facts. You still haven’t made clear what this ass was saying that was true. We all read his comment today on Ahram and by itself, sounds perfectly sane. But we know better, don’t we?
I think you tipped your hand and left a bad taste. Micheal as far as I know has never retracted a strike three call. Consider yourself lucky you are still able to post.
P.S. I can see why Render picked Tangent….lol. But if this is incorrect I must apologize for the “try v attempt” references.
Okay this will genuinely be the last post, but to clear up once and for all
@Craig
I retracted and apologised for those comments which were lazy, although it still doesn’t even come close to saying that the US is the only source of violence in the Mid East. (This was aimed at those on this board that I saw as cheerleaders for Iraq 2003) Read again the side responsible for so much violence this past decade. This decade and so much violence, this isn’t me being pedantic but the statement says nothing close to what you claim.
The thread was almost solely concerned with his reaction to the United States policy in the region. Whether or not this was Michael’s intention, the interview became concerned mainly with this MB’s views on the US
@ Josh
I was talking about the argument Michael and, mainly, Hitchen’s had with a couple of Iraqis after a TV interview five years or so back, although the Lebanon fiasco also strikes me as another example of unnecessary provocation.
@ Maxtrue
His answers to MJT question on ‘before Nasser’ aren’t entirely inaccurate.
‘You supported the Shah of Iran. You supported Suharto, the generals in Pakistan, all Arab leaders.’ This is true if over the top and out of context
‘The second thing, of course, and you know this from media reports and human rights organizations, that people are tortured and killed on American orders.’ Its true that the US government implemented a policy of torture and targeted killings. Once again debate the context but the claim is true.
I’ll leave out mention of Israel for another time, although his case has some merit, as MJT admits by replying
MJT: Yeah, but you’re biased, too. You guys are completely biased toward the Palestinians.
I could go on. There’s no doubt he’s over the top and removing everything from context but even his comments on Mexico, China in Sudan (though hypocritical) health care, the overtures to Qadaffi etc are all fair points depending on perspective.
Let me say for the last time, I don’t agree with everything he said or his perspective in its entirety. I think it is valid though, and although it is aggressively ‘anti-American’, in the sense it’s not favourable to America, it doesn’t mean this guy is ‘bizarrely irrational’ mike @18 or that he would be considered a lunatic in other cultures @ Mike R 29 and so on.
Now I’m done. I honestly don’t want to get involved in this anymore so please don’t bait me. I won’t post again and Michael feel free to ban me.
Michael: While it’s obviously true that the United States supported Hosni Mubarak (and I don’t blame Egyptians for being angry at us for that), the idea that we’re trying to stop the revolutions in Libya and Syria is sand-poundingly stupid. So is everything he said about 9/11.
Michael, while his “trutherism” is doubtlessly idiotic, many of your neo-con buddies, such as Lee Smith, have their own brand (far more insidious, IMHO) of “trutherism”. And this is the allegation that al-Qaida is basically guided and enabled by people who wear western-style suits and go to work in Tehran, Riyadh “Saudi” Arabia (call somebody from Arabia a “Saudi”, and see what happens to the contours of your jawbone), Dubai, Doha, Damascus, Baghdad (previously–or, perhaps, still?), and Beirut(!)–I think he has mentioned all of these countries (and very strange bedfellows) from time to time, as being complicit, directly or indirectly , in 911. Others on your (?) side of the debate promulgate various versions of this hate-mongering, and war-mongering and enabling (in its effect) slander. Before we invaded Iraq, over 75% of Americans believed the fallacy that Saddam sponsored (or was involved in sponsoring 911)–and to say that the Dubya administration did not discourage this, would be an understatement–this blood libel being a significant reason that the war, at least initially, had majority support in the US. Also,
Michael, I have a request. Would it be possible for you post interviews with significant people who are roughly in Egypt’s political center?
Hopefully the MB splinters and the more moderate faction comes to the fore. This, however, may be a moot point–as Egypt cannot be Iran even if it wanted to. It doesn’t have 125 bln barrels of oil and, also unlike Iran, is not self-sufficient in food production (nowhere close). Due to the corruption of the Mubarak regime, moreover, so much rot has accumulated in the Egyptian military (which will take a generation to fix)that I doubt they could pull off a ground invasion of Libya. Therefore, like it or not, they will have to be open to the world. This obsession with the MB is overblown, I think, for many important reasons.
what is the way for me to purchase your book that will put the most money in your pocket. I am anxious to read it and send you a review–or post it on an appropriate thread, should the opportunity arise.
Actually, I think I will ban Ronan, though perhaps not for the reason he expects.
The reason is his insulting me for who I choose to be friends with. That’s not a critique of my work, but an attack on who I am. It’s not as bad as slagging me for who I married, but it’s in the same time zone. There would be some merit in this sort of thing if I consorted with neo-Nazis or terrorists, but we’re talking here about Christopher Hitchens.
Good bye, Ronan. Try to be a little bit nicer elsewhere on the Internet.
Sammyman: Would it be possible for you post interviews with significant people who are roughly in Egypt’s political center?
I’m going to quote people from all over the spectrum, and all of them are smarter than Esam El-Erian, though perhaps a bit less entertaining.
what is the way for me to purchase your book that will put the most money in your pocket.
Thanks for this, especially since you don’t particularly agree with my take on things. I should make the same amount of money, though, no matter where you buy it.
One of my largest points, and this requires a book rather than the half-paragraph that I now have time for, is that America’s forefathers envisioned a nation that would benefit from, but NOT BE DEPENDENT on world trade, such as the global trade in oil–as this leads to entangling alliances and the “need” for friendships with such characters as the Shah and the al-Saud (no matter how important the interest, however, I am unwilling to accept the premise that propping up corrupt, degenerate, dictatorial regimes, is a legitimate way for us to promote our interests).
What we need a Manhattan Project to develop fusion reactor technology, as well as a vastly-larger-than-a-New-Deal-scale program to make the hydrogen economy a reality.
Oil is too valuable, anyways, to be burned as fuel. It needs to be preserved for future generations as a feedstock for petrochemicals, fertilizers, and plastics. If the Gulf Arabs, Iranians, et al, get their shit together, they can produce these commodities far cheaper than anybody else, for obvious reasons.
So, Craig, many of our views, about doing what we have to do to wipe our hands of the Middle East actually converge, if not entirely agree. I apologize for calling you a bigot in an earlier thread–you clearly are not–but you sometimes do paint with an overly broad brush.
the Lebanon fiasco also strikes me as another example of unnecessary provocation.
Amazing. Just fucking amazing. Hating Nazi affilated fascists gangs is considered a fault in Ronan’s world.
was talking about the argument Michael and, mainly, Hitchen’s had with a couple of Iraqis after a TV interview five years or so back
Does anyone know what this creep was on about?
The server is being slow and my comment didn’t show up after minutes so I’m trying again:
the Lebanon fiasco also strikes me as another example of unnecessary provocation.
Amazing. Just fucking amazing. Hating Nazi affiliated fascists gangs is considered a fault in Ronan’s world.
was talking about the argument Michael and, mainly, Hitchen’s had with a couple of Iraqis after a TV interview five years or so back
Does anyone know what this creep was on about?
Josh,
Ronan is upset that Christopher Hitchens said the United States wouldn’t let a Taliban regime take over Iraq even if it won an election. (There was never any chance of that happening anyway, and this was more than five years ago.) He isn’t the only leftist who accused Hitch of being an imperialist for saying that.
Funny Michael, I still don’t know what Ronan thought Erian said that was true or factually true. Yes. Eisenhower thought the Shah was better than the Red Army in Tehran and the Mullahs agreed. I don’t know why that is considered spreading violence in the ME. Nixon prevented the slaughter of the Egyptian army in 73 and the result was the Carter peace treaty. If Ronan had taken a particular line from the interview and presented some evidence that supported Arian’s claim, that would have been fair debate. Instead he came in swinging.
Ronan means little seal. He got clubbed and I’m not sure that Render wasn’t right all along. Irish first name and an Irish last name along with a blog that’s consistent with his spin here.
I knew however his swipe at Hitchens was a cry for banishment. So you called this batter out on strikes.
Michael, I wonder if you tried to get your interview to Ahram. Wasn’t that Arian today declaring striking and protest is legal? I’m surprised Erian wasn’t more tactful in his interview with you and makes such measured statements to Ahram.
Wrong Michael, Ronan says he’s a conservative…lol
I think Victor described himself as such.
As an outside western observer who takes this class to learn from my professors, the “proof will show up in the future” part just jumps out and screams “argument weakness,” even in a collection of nonsense. Is this tactic common?
“Any day now, you’ll see; it’s just over the horizon…” Because you’ve visited the future?
MADNESS
AMONGT
US
Sammy, you are right that petroleum should probably be conserved for material products. Scientists however have found ancient bacteria that can produce petroleum and one day this genetic mechanism can be transferred to e. coli and industrially produced. The ME is a great place for solar energy production.
My hunch is that we will prefect fraking shale and extracting oil from tar oil opening up more than a few decades of fossil fuel. There is enough of both in Canada and the US for many decades.
Hydrogen is a great fuel but it requires lots of energy to extract. An American researcher has found a Cobalt catalyst that can aid solar cells while producing hydrogen from water. Here’s is the problem of low energy methods for Hydrogen extraction: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/02/110219165217.htm
On the other hand thorium power plants can produce tremendous power, burn up military HEU and create enough energy to produce drinking water from sea water and hydrogen. In the short term, I see a cheaper version of fixes: http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&newspaperUserId=27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3a4f599cd0-471c-45b2-9b00-3b087b6423d5&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest
You are right that KSA and others should invest heavily in new energy technology, but the serious research is not in the ME besides Israel. What we need here however is indeed a Manhattan project that can advance fuel cells, thorium mini-reactors (we have huge deposits), solar, clean fracking technology for gas extraction and continued energy conservation science reducing power demand. Carbon sequestering is presently being tested on a large scale.
Imagine a hybrid car that can burn various fuels including biofuel or cellulosic fuel and supply electrical power to your car and also to your home running at night to charge up your home fuel cells. All the natural gas we have can power homes and even industrial energy demands. Its really time we wake up and stop spending trillions on ME oil.
Too common Paul, far too common these days…
Ronan is offended that hitchens said we wouldn’t allow Sunni extreemists to oppress a country full of Shiites? After standing up for nazis in lebanon, he just gets worse and worse
(In fairness, as many people do) … El-Erian begins with what he wants, then creates his own Reality.
Seems to me, Sayyid Qutb did exactly the same in Greeley.
I don’t know what the fuss is all about. Esam is spewing a typical Middle Eastern rant. “Death to the USA” and “Death to Israel,” in so many words. We should be used to it by now.
This is Middle Eastern culture. They are backward, most are uneducated and their golden rule is “get them before they get you.” Lie, steal and cheat are all acceptable ways to conduct your life. Worst of all, they are the kings of conspiracy theories and blaming others for all their ills. They see how successful and powerful the USA is and they just can’t stand it. They hate Israel for the same reason. The area where Israel now exists was once pretty much a wasteland. They settled it and turned it into the super power of the region; without oil money either. They really hate that. So, they blame us instead of looking inward and admit that their own crappy culture and religion are keeping them down. If it wasn’t for oil they would still be goat herders in abject poverty and no one would give two nickels for them. Until they can change that cultural dynamic they are doomed. Each successive regime is, and will continue to be, more corrupt than the last. It will not go well in Egypt, mark my words.
Same thing in Iraq, those folks were brought up with the same cultural dynamic and I had hopes that they could ascend themselves with our help. Bush took a big risk trying to save the place. The jury is still out, but right now things seem tenuous at best.
Afghanistan, I fear is lost. Those people can’t be saved. Their culture is even more backward and corrupt than the Middle East proper.
Don’t get me wrong, Middle Easterners are fully capable of transcending their cultural yoke and millions of them have. Unfortunately, once they see the light, they don’t stick around to better their native countries, they get the hell out and who can blame them. I sure don’t. My dad was from Iran and he left Iran for the aforementioned reasons. I thank god every day that he had the temerity to stay in this fantastic, wonderful, good Christian country, hence my sig “Fortunate Son.”
I have a no tolerance policy for America bashing or American culture bashing which includes Christian bashing. Even though I’m not very religious, it was a major contributor in forming our culture which in turn made us great. That said, Hitchens is a liberal dolt who got one thing right.
Don’t sweat it Josh. Ronan can contemplate how the US brought violence to Syria. http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/15/us-syria-idUSTRE76D7NP20110715
Instead he is likely to contemplate this: http://www.voanews.com/english/news/middle-east/How-Disappointed-are-Arabs-in-United-States-125631748.html
Max,
Before water wars either set in (or escalate?), I’d bump H2O supply up high on the priority list. Fuels have variants, and more will arise, as you point out. However, I’m not drinking them, or washing my dishes, clothes or skin with them, no matter how “green” they may be. Side note: with the glut of wine grapes alone around today, I wonder how much water those vines suck up—not that I want them plowed under! Well, certain varieties anyway…
True Paul, real water wars coming in China’s area of the woods. We should be happy for our rain. Thorium power plants by the way don’t need coolant. We need some powerful energy planets if we hope to produce hydrogen and desalinate sea water. Fraking for gas does use water.
Here is an interesting take on Pabama foreign policy. http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article/the-obama-doctrine-defined/
Micheal, Ahram twice told me your link was posted but I have to see my comment there with link. V of A has this link too at the end of the Zogby poll (IF they post my comment).
Here’s a laugh for you Paul in light of Michael’s interview above. And the side bare is funny too…
http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/07/20117313948379987.html
Max,
Guess which country is a world leader in solar research, desalinization and electric cars.
Yes, that’s right! the country Sammyboy finds despicable, disgusting, fascist blah, blah, blah.
Hey and guess what else? They also have off-shore gas and shale deposits,most of which are within the 1948 armistice lines.
So now or soon, the Israelis will be able to fund further research for renewable energy.
And Sammy’s friends would rather rot in their graves than use anything to better themselves that those Jews created .
For them its a win-win situation…They can show the world how miserable and hard-done by they are and then like Sammyboy, blame it on the Jews.
Nice work and play the perpetual refugee
Esam El-Erian says, “We all need a free and independent democratic state. We have struggled for a strong and independent Egypt not only for 100 years, but for 200 years, since Mohammad Ali. ” He notes that Egypt was under the rule of the Ottomans for some hundred years. However, Egypt was not an independent state for some 2000 years, since Octavian (Augustus Caesar) defeated and killed Cleopatra, the last pharoah of Egypt, and Marc Antony, her husband. From that time, it was ruled by Rome, then the Arabs – which is why Egyptians now speak Arabic – the Ottomans, France, Great Britain – and only got independence in the 20th century.
f
The opinion that “all opinions are biased” is self-refuting. A biased opinion is false, so the opinion that all opinions are biased is a version of the opinion that all opinions are false. But if all opinions are false, then the opinion that all opinions are false is itself false. See what Epimenides the Cretan had to say: All Cretans are liars!
He isn’t the only leftist who accused Hitch of being an imperialist for saying that.
The two things that offended him about Hitchens was opposing oppressive Sunni supremacism of the sort that Joseph Braude’s Taxi driver evinced and opposing Nazi supremacism.
I’m not convinced that Ronan is a leftist, he says he lives in the Middle east, he may well be the sort of supremacist that is ubiquitous there. That taxi driver by the way was the perfect example to clarify that the problem with Arab/Sunni/Islamic culture is simply supremacism. We are so used to a certain European sourced flavor of supremacism that we tend to refuse to notice other kinds but in the end, supremacism is simple. It doesn’t matter to the average supremacist whether he’s been told that his privilage to oppress, conquer, exploit and/or slaughter is because of a fictional “race” membership, an ethnic membership, a religious membership, anointing by God, royalty, language or some other excuse, in the end supremacism is similar and can at least be classified as such. Also the endless protestations that one is an innocent victim is also a common property.
By saying “everyone is biased” it’s obvious that Mr. Totten was looking for a diplomatic way of trying to get his subject to concede his own bias and move on from repetitive, insane, insulting ranting to a more reasonable subject. It might have worked, slightly. It also served to point out the paranoid double standard where only Arabs are allowed to work in their own self interests without be classed as criminals.
@155
“It also served to point out the paranoid double standard where only Arabs are allowed to work in their own self interests without be classed as criminals.”
Very interestingly put, Josh. And the implications are quite profound.
Max,
“Greed has become a foundational structure of the US economy – exemplified by the pharmaceutical industry.” (A Guardian reprint wouldn’t surprise me.)
“Reagan mythology is leading US off a cliff”
If Al Jazeera declares it so, who am I to be skeptical?
Max,
Trust me, Ronan is a Western leftist, not a Middle Eastern conservative. I can tell by the way he writes/talks.
I suppose he is, but there are people like George Galloway who seem to be devoted to teaching Islamists how to pass as leftists.
And the simplest explanation for Galloway is that he has made the journey from leftist to crypto-Islamist himself.
Michael, I agree with you which is why I put a lol after my statement. I was being sarcastic though in reference to some others, I think Josh has a good observation.
I thought on reflection perhaps it might have been a bad idea to try and link this thread at Ahram. They finally posted my comment without your link after my third try –
[Hypocrisy 101
Just so you know, many American viewers understand you don't post comments you don't like. How can you post a comment by this MB official and NOT post his interview with Michael Totten? Is it because you know what Americans would think of the Muslim Brotherhood if they heard El-Arian's words? Censorship however is not the answer my friends.]
I don’t want to put you at risk while you’re in Egypt. Is that a concern? I did read that Hizb’Allah kept tabs on your blog. V of A on the other hand did post your link and my comment to the Zogby Poll article linked above, right after Ahmed from Egypt said US favorability in Egypt was 0.
Paul, given the mentality Michael has exposed me to of Egyptian thought processes, I laughed when AJ said we’re a nation of psychotics. And some of those side bar headlines made me laugh too. This is the paper the Democrats want unfettered while they crucify Murdock’s.
Yesjb, I did remind Sammy where the only world class research on solar (and now fraking) takes place in the ME. I think he was under the illusion that just because the Saudis have sunlight and oil money, scientific breakthrough follows. You need a robust capitalism and a vibrant higher educational system. My understanding is that means sending their kids over here to learn. And research, if you look at the Science Daily article above, means many scientists (some Jewish and many Christian) of many ethnic backgrounds working together. I just don’t think that environment exists outside of Israel in the ME. Sammy should understand that and ask himself why. He is quite right that America needs to create our own energy tit to suck on. Time for Israel to start sucking on their own too. Not pleased Yesjb with the new boycott law. But don’t let me divert from what I find unpleasing about the Muslim Brotherhood.
Yesjb, http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/hezbollah-lebanon-will-not-let-israel-seize-its-natural-gas-1.373201
Assad is stepping up missile transfers to Hizb’Allah as security head position falls to Hizb’Allah as well. Next will come some more control of the military. We can see where this is going.
Perhaps Erdogan will want his claims for oil to be recognized if he is to support Israeli claims. What a messy game of chess. But of course we get only a rosy view from Lebanon: http://www.dailystar.com.lb/Opinion/Columnist/2011/Jul-16/Say-Hallelujah-to-this-week-in-Egypt.ashx#axzz1SGbj6hiq
I don’t think the Copts are saying “Hallelujah”…..
Max, I’m not in any danger here, at least not from the Muslim Brotherhood or the government.
I was at Al Ahram recently, the institute not the newspaper. Interesting place, and definitely not a bastion of the MB.
This interview is what you call “Theatre of the Absurd”.
A clear example of how these irrational arabs try to turn the tables around with their absurd logic.
Thanks for responding Michael. I thought I had made a wrong move…Hopefully Egyptians can get a look at your interview in Arabic, though I’m not really sure they care.
A note from another writer who blames the US for the present seriousness between India and Pakistan. I must say this writer ignores the state of reality just prior to 9/11 as India and Pakistan moved towards nuclear confrontation and the Pakistan aided Taliban gave OBL safe haven for operations against the US.
Carter’s decision to engage Pakistan was largely due to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan that Brezinski has taken credit for instigating. At the time India wasn’t particularly drawn towards the US.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304911104576445862242908294.html
In Egypt, the military faces a different problem, but as in the case of Pakistan a wrong decision may make things far worse than under Mubarak.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iFWQtQJEfHaFPdh10Kpre5TUtbPg?docId=CNG.dc25ca3b91c1dca03c4e92b9874f6487.861
Just few facts.
Egyptian need no help from out side.
Egypt has to feed 80-90 million people. It does not have the money. Now it is all kinds of hand outs. In order to live it must have a major econ. reconstruction program especially ag. development. It already use more water than it has, etc. What can MT tell us about that and about the economic future of Egypt in general.
Arabs keeping their oil.
More people like the interviewed person think so. The gas pipe to Israel-Jordan was dynamited 3 times. Israel and Jordan will have electricity. Egypt will keep the gas. Egypt need the money for the gas, Egypt need investments. These oil & gas keepers will drive away any investors.
Who support Gadaffi.
In Libya the opposition to Gadaffi is 100% product of NATO (ie USA) and few arab countries. Even now if these outsiders will go away Gadaffi will win.
Weapons.
Up to about 1970 Russia=USSR was a major supplier of weapons to the Arabs, not the USA. Now probably 80-90% of the weapons used by Syria came from Russia, China, North Korea.
Max, why you working so hard on drawing attention to a Zogby poll that says Arabs don’t like America? Not exactly a news flash, is it?
Sammyman @138, it’s no big deal but thank you for the apology
Haha….no, not a news flash, but I had not seen such low numbers and was surprised the number went up in KSA. I thought after reading the interview above the comment thread was funny, but really it was more to leave Michael’s link so readers at V of A can see some of the dynamic that gets those low Egyptian number. Ahmed says its more like zero…..
[interesting side note today. The Dawn space craft now circles Vesta, the largest asteroid from the belt where the rock that killed off the dinosaurs likely came from. Huge event even bigger than the Arab Spring...lol Just recently, researchers got this confirmation of that evolutionary changing strike: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/dinosaurs/8633970/Meteorite-did-kill-the-dinosaurs-fossil-shows.html I noticed on other PJ blogs, there are many conservatives that don't believe in evolution and many who take Genesis literally. Nuts, and I wonder what El-arian would have said abut evolution. Perhaps he shares some beliefs with America's religious right.]
#164,
Thanks Max,
I did see the article earlier in the week. Its hard to say how much is BS and wishful thinking and how much is a real threat.
Every day there is a new announcement from Iran about how they have developed this and that and the West better not try anything or else! I’m waiting that any day now they’ll announce a new gizmo to let them walk on water then turn the water into wine
They can strut like the cock on the walk all they want but I think the Israelis take this gas field development very very seriously. And I believe that they have some strong foreign backers.
Rani, four times.
Rebels are making some advances, but Qaddafi would likely win if we left.
Russia has supplied many arms after 1970 as has China and North Korea.
#170
An asteroid!!?
I thought it was smoking that killed off the dinosaurs!
” blood libel ”
Bwahahahaha. Even if Saddam wasn’t involved in 9/11, how horrible to commit a “blood libel” against a benevolent dictator who wouldn’t harm a fly. We all know blood libels are only allowed to be used against da Joooos, the way sammyboy ronan anand victor fnord et al. do.
No, the dinosaurs got smoked…. and here’s a quickie that portends of implanted iphones. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110714101513.htm I bet every kid will want one. What next, teachers screening kids for biochips? Maybe after we figure out how to screen travelers for implanted explosives.
I dont have much hope for Egyptian democracy. El Erian makes one bizarre, deluded contradictory statement after another. Michael has written before that this is very common in Egypt where the same person can say that the Holocaust never happened and then accuse the Jews of acting like the Nazis did during the Holocaust without missing a beat.
It is a culture incapable of being honest with itself, and hence unable to make significant changes. such populations are easily controlled by dictators and unlikely to sustain the uncertainties of democracy and civil liberty.
Michael,
You mentioned you had a translator with you: when the Brotherhood’s pitchman took that single phone call just prior to the interview’s end, could you translate what he was saying?
Max,
I enjoy your inclusion of issues that deserve more attention than they get. Our obligation as considerate guests is to try to fold them into Michael’s themes if possible; I have trouble doing it, being one of the least knowledgeable about this part of the world.
“means many scientists (some Jewish and many Christian) of many ethnic backgrounds working together.”
Science is unsettled (the jury is always receptive to new evidence, Mr. Gore) and usually collaborative, by nature, or it’s an ideological agenda, not science.
Rani,
Egypt is haemorrhaging money and investors by the hundreds of millions per week. And whose going to bail them out, Europe, the US?
Not likely. China and India won’t do it.
I think that Syria is in a similar situation. These countries are in very dire situations.
Ummm, anyone notice how the current issue of ‘Time’ lists el-Erian as one of the leading Egytian Islamic moderates?(!) What does that tell us?
yesjb: And whose going to bail them out, Europe, the US?
I don’t want any American money spent to help people who hate Americans. Zero. None. Nada. Nothing.
I have no way of knowing, but I imagine people in other countries feel that way too. Can we see that poll one more time so we can determine who Egyptians don’t hate? Maybe one of them has the funds to help Egyptians.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-14175337
Iran says it is ready to co-operate with Argentina over the 1994 bombing of a Jewish community centre in the Argentine capital, Buenos Aires.
Kinda like mafia offering to help investigate the mafia, isn’t it? Since when are the accused welcome to investigate their own case? What’s next, they will help the US get to the bottom of the Tehran hostage crisis? Either these are the stupidest sons of bitches to ever walk the earth or they are deliberately taunting Argentina. News, flash for the IRI: there are outstanding indictments against some of your government personnel for this crime, as well as interpol arrest warrants. If you wanna help, extradite the suspects to stand trial. Otherwise, out a sock in it and stand the hell by for when the time when people actually have to pay for the things they’ve done. It isn’t going to be pretty, and you aren’t going to get much sympathy.
Congratulations, Michael, on enduring the interview with el-Erian. I didn’t actually hear him but his illogical premises, analyses and conclusions showed him up to be the irresponsible clown that most other Islamists appear to be. In Israel, the Jewish people are used to these explosive, high-pitched, uulating invectives which utter from the Arab mouth. It’s actually quite frightening until you become habituated to it and realize that the Mideast is full of people like el-Erian who refuse to admit that they have ever lost a fight, a battle or a war (unlike Anwar Sadat) and continue threatening no matter the consequences to themselves, their families and to their own people. As noted, we Israeli Jews are used to that. In the end, we recognize (at least the Sephardim and those other Israelis who have gradually moved further and further to the right) that the Arabs only understand one thing: Force. No, there will not be peace. We will have more battles, perhaps a war, certainly increased incursions. Eventually, for our own survival’s sake, given leaders like el-Erian who cannot be defeated by argument, discussion and logic and who are intent, no matter the cost to self and others, to inure their enemies (all non-Muslims, especially the Jews, we will have to defeat our Arab opposition by force once again. I didn’t come to this conclusion lightly. It evolved. I recall that a Hamas spokesman once said in a hate-filled speech re Operation Cast Lead (caught by UTube) that Jews appreciate life like Muslims love death. I think, when you understand this statement, that you will understand that our enemies, like el-Erian, must be slain much as our Holy Book has, on several occasions, formerly advised us in other contexts. Pity, weakness and western compassion will only see us (and you) exterminated. The world take note!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14175443
“Britain, as always, has shown huge generosity and is in a leadership position to try and resolve this crisis. We need others to do so too. We need the whole of the international community now to bend every sinew to help these poor people here who are in a desperate condition.”
Britain needs to count the US out of that proposition. If Somalis want US aid they better get out of Somalia but quick, and relocate to someplace else that’s not under the control of an Al Qaida offshoot. I’d suggest we leave Somalia to rich Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia, but if the British want to jump in there too it’s up to them. As long as they don’t drag the US along with them.
“We simply will not deal with al-Shabab and we will not allow our operations to be fettered by them,” said Mr Mitchell.
Both of those claims are obvious lies. No humanitarian NGO is going to be permitted to operate in an area controlled by Al Qaida without “dealing” with them, nor will they be permitted to conduct their operations without having constraints placed on them. The UK’s international development secretary would be well served by learning the value of being honest whilst lobbying for humanitarian causes.
On a not related to Egypt, I heard an American was “arrested” by a mob in Tahrir Square today. I sincerely hope that wasn’t anything to do with you, Micheal. Been searching for more info but there doesn’t seem to be much available.
And the guardian describes this guy as:
“an outspoken reformist on the brotherhood’s guidance council”
Yikes!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/08/egypt-muslim-brotherhood-uncovered
Well, it looks like the old “I’m a patriotic Egypt who tried his hardest to screw Israel” defense.
http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=229728
(So maybe they’ll put his name back up on all those buildings?….)
File under: Some people jus’ don’t get no respeck….
Thanks Paul. Sometimes when I sense a lull, I try to stretch the topic and bring in some “related” news items, admittedly distant sometimes. Global Warming has a ways to go before its anywhere near evolution’s validity. In fact, its the irreversibility to our evolution that is the worry of the GW advocates, but in itself, we see cycles of temperature and green house gas variations over time. Before the rise of plants, the atmosphere would have killed us and I would rather a bit more CO2 to O2 because were our atmosphere any more rich in oxygen, that rock ending the dinosaurs would have ignited our world and likely all life. Why the O has always been below flammable is rather amazing as no one can find the feedback loop and selection could not have been cause.
Micheal, do you have an Arabic version of this interview? This is great stuff for Memri……
Craig, at the least, I think the President ought to make a case and tell us exactly what has happened since his Cairo speech to warrant billions more in aid and military assistance. I’m sure Michael will interview someone who can make an argument. I have never seen such low numbers including in Israel, Turkey, Afghanistan. I hope Michael also can ask the women rights group to explain the zero response to Logan’s attack as well as the continued behavior.
Iran? http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia-pacific/irans-top-leader-tells-pakistan-president-that-us-is-the-real-enemy/2011/07/16/gIQATAUIII_story.html
Time for India, KSA and Russia to step up and the world to isolate the regime in Tehran. I’m not sure I want Obama telling them all “don’t make me play my bluff”…
Craig, at the least, I think the President ought to make a case and tell us exactly what has happened since his Cairo speech to warrant billions more in aid and military assistance.
I don’t need him to explain anything, Maxtrue. I need him to cut off the flow of US funds to Egypt. I also need him to enact a more realistic stance towards Egypt and other countries that are hostile towards the US, but which our State Department treats as friendlies. I blame Obama for a lot but he’s innocent of causing Egyptian stupidity and insanity. That’s all on Egypt.
An article by John Zogby on Huffington Post last year:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-zogby/polls-egypt-obama_b_818192.html
While the data I’m reporting here may portray alarmingly hostile attitudes toward the U.S., my experience with the region (I have been to Egypt eight times and we have done extensive polling in the Middle East for more than 10 years) makes me feel we can improve our standing with Egyptians and be a seen allies in a new, more democratic nation.
I don’t want to be allies with assholes. I don’t want assholes to like America. If Obama (and Zogby) need to explain anything, it’s the reasoning behind such ridiculous notions that Americans should want our enemies to like us.
I recall a conversation three years ago with a diplomat from a Middle Eastern nation who said of Arabs that “we love America. It’s the U.S. we have a problem with.”
Who cares? Considering how screwed up in the head Egyptians are, and what a mess their country is, it’d be pretty fucking alarming if they approved of the US. Do the bastards who promote such stupid ideas as “we want to be popular with savages!” have any idea how dysfunctional they sound? I’m guessing they probably don’t, but maybe they could rein in their enthusiasm long enough to step back and take a close look at what they are really saying when they write these warm fuzzy feel good “can’t we all just get along!?” articles.
Somebody discussing the Zogby and Pew polls of Egypt:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2672357/posts
85% of Egyptians hold an unfavorable attitude toward the U.S.
92% of Egyptians believe the U.S. is one of two nations that is the greatest threat to them (the other nation the Egyptian people hate is Israel)
65% of Egyptians believe that Islamic clergy must play a greater role in the Egyptian political system
79% percent of Egyptians believe that it would be positive if Iran is able to acquire nuclear weapons
Another Pew poll last June revealed that only 17% of Egyptians hold a favorable view of the United States, while 20% hold a favorable view of suicide bombing.
Pew also revealed that 82% of Egyptian Muslims support stoning human beings to death for having sex outside of marriage and that 77% of Egyptian Muslims support public whippings and cutting people’s hands off for theft. In addition, a terrifying 84% of Egyptian Muslims support the death penalty for anyone who has the good sense to leave the religion of Islam.
Why is there even a discussion amongst American pundits about whether or not it is desirable for the US to be allies with a society like that? The Egyptian Youth Movement was kind enough to give us an easy out on the Camp David Accords. Lets declare the treaty null and void and kick Egypt to the curb. I DARE Zogby to show his poll results to Americans and then poll them about how they feel about the US courting Egyptians as allies.
Michael, I think anthropologists could probably explain el-Erian best. Savage societies hava tradition of ritual boasting, complete with cuckoo threats, wild exaggerations etc. Lest anyone think I am being crass by labelling Muslims as savages, it should be noted that Celts, frontier Americans, and Texans have a ritual boasting tradition that has survived prtty much into our own day.
A noted example is ‘Davy Crockett’s Brag’ (from Wiki):
Who-Who-Whoop — Bow-Wow-Wow-Yough. I say, Mr. Speaker; I ve had a speech in soak this six months, and it has swelled me like a drowned horse; if I don’t deliver it I shall burst and smash the windows. The gentleman from Massachusetts [Mr. Everett] talks of summing up the merits of the question, but I’ll sum up my own. In one word I’m a screamer, and have got the roughest racking horse, the prettiest sister, the surest rifle and the ugliest dog in the district. I’m a leetle the savagest crittur you ever did see. My father can whip any man in Kentucky, and I can lick my father. I can outspeak any man on this floor, and give him two hours start. I can run faster, dive deeper, stay longer under, and come out drier, than any chap this side the big Swamp. I can outlook a panther and outstare a flash of lightning, tote a steamboat on my back and play at rough and tumble with a lion, and an occasional kick from a zebra.
“To sum up all in one word I’m a horse. Goliah was a pretty hard colt but I could choke him. I can take the rag off-frighten the old folks-astonish the natives-and beat the Dutch all to smash-make nothing of sleeping under a blanket of snow and don’t mind being frozen more than a rotten apple.
“Congress allows lemonade to the members and has it charged under the head of stationery-I move also that whiskey be allowed under the item of fuel. For bitters I can suck away at a noggin of aquafortis, sweetened with brimstone, stirred with a lightning rod, and skimmed with a hurricane. I’ve soaked my head and shoulders in Salt River, so much that I’m always corned. I can walk like an ox, run like a fox, swim like an eel, yell like an Indian, fight like a devil, spout like an earthquake, make love like a mad bull, and swallow a Mexican whole without choking if you butter his head and pin his ears back.”
Sorry about the comments spam.
More from Zogby on the Huffington Post. This was just before Mubarak stepped down:
If they succeed, it is unlikely a new Egyptian government and the military (the nation’s most stable and enduring institution) will reject continued U.S. aid. We would have a great opportunity to restore Egyptian confidence in the U.S. Let’s hope that will be the outcome.
After rattling off most the same stats I mentioned in my last comment, he speaks of “restoring” Egyptian confidence in the US? I’ve decided this man is crazy. I can’t think of any other explanation for an intellectual to think Americans, who have probably the most advanced democracy in the world and certainly the most freedom, should want people who live in one of the most barbaric and regressive societies on the planet and who thing that’s a GOOD THING, to “approve” of the United States. What’s next? Should we poll murderers and rapists to see what we can do to get their approval for our legal system?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14141809
A former News of the World journalist’s allegation the newspaper paid police to track mobile phones raises serious questions about the UK’s eavesdropping laws, according to experts.
What, privacy matters now? Seems like the British should have thought of that before they allowed CCTV cameras to blanket their country, no? And besides, aren’t all the young folks who defend facebook and google (and etc) for raping their customer’s privacy saying that privacy is an outdated notion? What’s the deal? I’m getting very confused by all these conflicting messages being sent out. Is it that privacy only counts when it impacts politicians? Isn’t that sort of backwards? We protect the privacy of public figures, but we don’t protect the privacy of private citizens? That’s a very British attitude that dates back to the days where there were only two kinds of Brit – people who matter and people who don’t – but that’s hardly compliant with British talking points, is it?
OK last comment for a while! And sorry about going off topic again too!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14149615
Jaycee’s American accent is so convincing that the US caller is almost certainly unaware that he’s actually on the other the side of the world, in the Philippines.
Probably, but that’s only because everyone expects their customer service and tech support calls to be answered by an Indian, these days. Anyone who doesn’t sound like an Indian is assumed to be an immigrant.
It’s this accent, coupled with the high number of fluent English speakers, that is making the Philippines the new destination of choice for international companies wanting to outsource their call centres – especially for the lucrative US market.
Yes, there are a lot of English speakers in the Philippines. Virtually everyone who has been to school speaks English to some extent. Though certainly not “fluently”.
“To an American, the Philippine accent appears clear and neutral.”
The hell it is. Filipinos have a very distinctive accent. I spent a lot of time in the PI and I never met anyone who speaks English like an American.
All that said, if we have to outsource our call centers along with everything else we outsource, I can’t think of a country I’d rather have benefit from that than PI. Filipinos are nice people. And unlike some people *cough* Egyptians *cough* they don’t hate Americans.
Obama and the woman who was described by Democrats as “one of the world’s smartest” in her run-up to her run for the presidency (before Dems fell head over heels for “the anointed one”) want to dialogue with people like this? We are in deep trouble. The current administration wants to negotiate with people with whom no deal can ever be reached because they will never commit to a firm position and will not uphold their end of any bargain after obtaining concessions. The only reasonable alternative is to treat them like an enemy and do all that is necessary to defeat them.
Obama and the woman who was described by Democrats as “one of the world’s smartest” in her run-up to her run for the presidency (before Dems fell head over heels for “the anointed one”) want to dialogue with people like this? We are in deep trouble. The current administration wants to negotiate with people with whom no deal can ever be reached because they will never commit to a firm position and will not uphold their end of any bargain after obtaining concessions. The only reasonable alternative is to treat them like an enemy and support rational alternatives to their accession to power. If they do accede to power, only war can result
Guys let’s look in the mirror a little bit before we completely drown in our “Western”, secular, “modern” righteous indignation toward the, shall we say, pre-modern mindsets of many Egyptians.
I too was alarmed at some of the results of the above-mentioned polls–though the often (I think deliberately–by the right) misquoted Pew poll CLEARLY shows, by a significant margin, preference for secular government on the part of Egyptians of all walks of life. Look up the poll itself and see for yourselves.
And offhandedly saying stuff like “someone should be killed for adultery” or “someone should be killed for leaving Islam” is VERY DIFFERENT than actually supporting legislation for these things. Most of these Egyptians polled probably just thought they were having a conversation with somebody, unaware that this “somebody” was attempting to conduct a scientific analysis of their society, based on what they may have thought were offhanded comments.
Moreover, while the Western/Christian world HAS ACTUALLY carried out exterminations of ethnic and religious minority populations, as we all know: entire pagan Germanic tribes who refused to convert (8th century–unknown numbers), Albegensian Crusades (13th century–75-120000 “heretics” butchered in SW France), Holocaust, etc– I could go on, as we all know. Nothing comparable ever happened in Arab history.
Notice I did not say Muslim history, which would encompass the “Turks” (though the Kurds in Eastern Anatolia were the actual primary butchers of the Armenians–though encouraged of course by the Young Turk regime–and P.S. the Kurds also massacred 25000 Assyrian Christians in Northern Iraq in the early 1920′s–all this contrary to the prevalent myth in the U.S. that they have been perpetual victims of modern Middle Eastern history). “Ironically” Israeli diplomats were happily able to at least refuse to apply the label of “genocide” to what happened to the Armenians, during the warm period of Turkish-Israeli relations. American Jewish organizations also vigorously, if reluctantly and behind the scenes, opposed efforts in the US Congre$$ to recognize the Armenian genocide. I guess I am going off on a tangent now…
Over the last 20 years there have been an average of 18-25000 homicides in the US every year, compared to 800 in Egypt. In fact more human beings murdered in domestic and street violence in the US, than by “Muslim Savegry” in Algeria during the course of the Algerian civil war.
My point, and peeve, is that I just think many of us are too quick to throw around words like, “savages”.
I do not deny, however, that there are many in the Middle East who have one foot in the Middle Ages and one foot in the modern world. And I do not deny that it is a problem.
And how many people were murdered in Iraq by Saddam Hussein, sammiboy? You whine about the US supporting repressive regimes in the Middle East, and then attack the US for getting rid of one of the most bloodthirsty mass murderers this side of Pol Pot. You stormed onto this blog with the express purpose of demonizing Israel but you say Hussein was a victim of “blood libel”. THAT is exactly the problem with the Middle East, that people like you can’t bring yourself to admit that the Saddam Husseins were responsible for vastly more death and destruction to Arabs and Muslims than Israel ever was. And your latest weaseling and backtracking trying to sound “reasonable” doesn’t mask the fact that you’re still peddling the same old crap.
Gary Rosen: “THAT is exactly the problem with the Middle East, that people like you can’t bring yourself to admit that the Saddam Husseins were responsible for vastly more death and destruction to Arabs and Muslims than Israel ever was.”
Gary, this is by far the most powerful point I have ever heard a partisan of the Israeli right make. Anger in the ME region toward Israel IS disproportionate to other regional issues which are a lot more problematic to a lot more people. I do not condone this. However this fact in no way justifies Israel’s massively unjust treatment of West Bank Palestinians over the last 4 decades–the land confiscations for settlements, the fact that 300,000 settlers are allocated more water than 2000000 Palestinians, etc–I can go on, but you already know all this stuff. And instead of acknowledging that this shit is wrong, that it is racist, you and your ilk call me, and others who point it out, antisemites.
Sorry for going off topic, but I had to briefly answer Gary on this.
Craig, please look at the Pew poll itself. It has been oft misquoted (deliberately, I believe, by the right). A solid majority of Egyptians from all walks of life in fact prefer secular government. There is no doubt, though, that many Egyptians have one foot in the Middle Ages; however, saying offhandedly that “adulters should be stoned” or “apostates from Islam should be killed”, is very different from actually supporting the enactment of legislation for these things. Those Egyptian citizens interviewed may have thought they were simply involved in a casual conversation with somebody, without realizing that this “somebody” was attempting to make a scientific analysis of the attitutes and culture of their society.
I’ve heard similar anti-American rants from Europeans and Western Leftists, but Arabs tend to be more discreet, less openly rude than Esam El-Erian. It’s no surprise that left-leaning media types and UN employees think he’s ‘moderate’.
If he was asking why Osama Bin Laden’s supporters in the KSA and Pakistan were never punished for their involvement in 9/11, I’d say that’s a good question to ask, but, like most politicians, he used that perpetually un-answered question as an excuse to push his own, unrelated agenda.
Looking forward to hearing some reasonable voices from Egypt
Great interview, Michael…and a great commentary from your contributors. I’ve been really busy since I moved down to Mexico for research but I will catch up and read all of your work soon.
sammyman,
You wrote: “Over the last 20 years there have been an average of 18-25000 homicides in the US every year, compared to 800 in Egypt.”
Could you please provide references or sources for your numbers?
Sammyman,
Guys let’s look in the mirror a little bit before we completely drown in our “Western”, secular, “modern” righteous indignation toward the, shall we say, pre-modern mindsets of many Egyptians.
I think you nailed it when you used the word “western”, but i disagree with you trivializing the outstanding issues as a mind-set. It’s western culture we;’re talking about here. A mind-set is a certain way of thinking. It can be changed, and it can be transmitted to others. Cultures, on the other hand, are not subject to change in the short term. And I would submit that the prevailing culture in Egypt is fundamentally at odds with the culture of the western world, and no amount of discussion is going to change that.
And offhandedly saying stuff like “someone should be killed for adultery” or “someone should be killed for leaving Islam” is VERY DIFFERENT than actually supporting legislation for these things. Most of these Egyptians polled probably just thought they were having a conversation with somebody, unaware that this “somebody” was attempting to conduct a scientific analysis of their society, based on what they may have thought were offhanded comments.
I can’t think of any reason why somebody who thought those were the proper penalties for the crimes in question to NOT want that to be the law of the land. It doesn’t seem logical to me. Are you claiming that people would say it’s justice to stone women for adultery, but would oppose that being made law? I’m not really buying that. For instance, I’ve never met anyone in the US who thinks the death penalty is wrong but supports the death penalty, or vice versa. I think you’re engaging in a little wishful thinking, maybe. You read these poll results and want to believe that’s not REALLY where so many people in Arab countries are at
Moreover, while the Western/Christian world HAS ACTUALLY carried out exterminations of ethnic and religious minority populations, as we all know:
Yes, that’s true. And perhaps to a greater degree than any other place in the world. Read up on the Anglo-Saxon invasion of Britain for a good example of that.
…entire pagan Germanic tribes who refused to convert (8th century–unknown numbers)
That’s a less good example. The Saxons (which is who you are talking about there) were the primary rivals of the Franks. They were neighbors in Northern Germany going back into antiquity. The main reason the franks (under Charlemagne) went after the Saxons for being pagans was because the Saxons kept raiding Frankish lands. Every time Charlemagne went on a military campaign someplace or other (often against Muslims) the Saxons would start raping and pillaging. He’d come back in a snit and lay down the law for a few months and then get back to his campaigning, and voila! Saxons, raping and pillaging. The “conversion to Christianity” thing was just an excuse, and it didn’t work out in the end because once Charlemagne was gone the (now Christian) Saxons took over leadership of the German people from the Franks. At some later point in history the Franks even became lowly Frenchmen, and not Germans at all.
Albegensian Crusades (13th century–75-120000 “heretics” butchered in SW France)
I don’t do French history but they prolly had it coming.
Holocaust, etc– I could go on, as we all know. Nothing comparable ever happened in Arab history.
Well, as I said your examples were not very good ones but I do agree with you that the Europeans have a worse history when it comes to ethnic cleansing and genocide than Arabs do. On the other hand, Arabs throughout (Islamic) history have had different motivations that the European tribes did. Muslims forcibly assimilated whole populations, so they really didn’t need to engage in wholesale slaughter of the locals. They just had to make a few high profile and extremely brutal examples and their work was done. The barbarian European tribes had only two types of people in any given society: members of the tribe, and slaves. It’s easier to enslave populations if you kill a lot of them first.
I guess I am going off on a tangent now…
You were off on a tangent from the start, but that’s OK. Everyone does that around here
Bottom line is that I agree with you about Europe. Shit is going to hit the fan in Europe in the not too distant future and we will o9nce again see what Europeans are really like, when they aren’t promoting humanitarian socialist utopia. The primary difference for me is that Europeans for a long time now have been struggling against their base nature and have managed to advance themselves and the entire world along with them, despite their periodic relapses. Arabs/Muslims on the other hand seem to be enthusiastically embracing their own base nature and want drag the whole world back into darkness. That’s a pretty stark contrast in my opinion.
and this is the latest on the Egyptian saga:
http://www.albawaba.com/behind-news/elbaradei-mossad-links-questioned-382123
I see Sammyboy, relies on the unvarnished truth for his accusations and also those stalwart supporters of fair reporting and openmindedness, Amnesty International.
BTW AI said there were 450,000 “settlers” in the West Bank when in fact there are 300000, which is about the only thing you got right!
Here is the response to AI’s criticism of Israel.
Sammi is just pleased as shit that once again he can proclaim his mantra of those racist Jews. But Sammi, you have no credibility…none!
“According to the Oslo agreement, 23.6 million cubic meters of water will be allocated to the Palestinians annually. In actual effect, the Palestinians have access to twice as much water. Israel has extensively surpassed the obligatory quantity of water. The Palestinians, on the other hand, have significantly violated their commitments regarding important issues such as illegal drilling (they have drilled over 250 wells without authorization of the Joint Water Commission) and handling of sewage. (The Palestinians are not constructing sewage treatment plants, despite their obligation to do so and the important foreign funding earmarked for this purpose.)
Israel has offered to supply Palestinians with desalinated water, but this has been systematically rejected due to political motivations. Israel has significantly reduced its use of fresh natural water from 508 (m3/person/year) in 1967 to 149 in 2008. During the same period, Palestinian consumption rose from 86 to 105. It remains unclear how Amnesty’s claims of “discriminatory policies” towards Palestinians can sustain the trial of reality. The authors of the report chose to ignore Israeli data, although they contain verifiable facts presented with total transparency. ”
That the issue is complex has escaped the likes of sammyboy.
Oh BTW Sammi…you left out the part were the Palis dump their own sewage into the water sources, and refuse to purify it or use the organic waste for agriculture. While Israel becomes “green” the Palis sit and pout and of course blame the Jews.
Its never the fault of the Arabs, is it sammi?
Of course not!, Its much easier to blame someone else! And give these guys their own state…OK!!
On another point, sammi, don’t confuse “savagery” and “criminality”.
To deny that the Arab majority supported the Nazis and their exterminasion policies is to fly in the face of history and cold reality. If they had been able to do so, there is no question they would have.
Only the British defeat of Rommel, saved the Arab masses from being more complicite in the savage elimination of the Jews.
Even after Rommel’s dfeat the vast and vastly disappointed Arab majority still supported the Nazi ethos and its implementation by the Nazi forces.
And we see that attitude alive and well to this day.
Only the likes of sammiboy would have us believe that its really those evil Jews that are to blame for all the ills.
What a pathetic little fool you are!
Why are there no Jews remaining in the environs of what we now call Medina, as of roughly 1400 years ago? Why is %48 of Israel’s Jewish population made up of refugees or the offspring of refugees driven out of numerous Arab (or should we say, more truthfully, Arabized) nations during the mid-20th century? More than a millennium apart – but the reason is ultimately the same. Because the mental maturity of the culture in question hasn’t changed, from Abu Afak and Asma bin Marwin, to the Fogel family.
But, good news everyone:
http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=229774
“Death to all Tunisians attempting to normalize relations with Israel,” said Ahmed Kahlaoui, who chairs a committee opposing the restoration of diplomatic ties. “We will denounce them and publish their names,” he said, the AFP news agency reported, speaking at a meeting attended by hundreds of people, some waving anti-Israeli banners. Participants performed songs, dances and poems, and Tunisians veterans who took part in the 1948 Arab-Israeli war gave testimonies, AFP reported.
“We can no longer trust this body’s members, which includes academics who support normalization with Israel and have had ties themselves” with Israel, Kahlaoui said. The recently banned Islamist party Al Nahda (Renaissance) opposes removing the anti-normalization provision, as do Arab nationalist factions and those on the extreme left. Polls show Al Nahda enjoys roughly 20 percent of the electorate’s support.
.
Sammy, I post an article from Frontpage above that documented 31 chances for peace Palestinians rejected. Each time their State shrunk. You’ve really got to address the core assumptions and challenge them with facts, or you’re just flapping your wings…
And this is how Erdogan rules Turkish foreign policy. The UN blasted his view and report on the flotilla crisis and this is their predicted action: http://www.thememriblog.org/blog_personal/en/39358.htm
He will use the threat of what he just stepped back from as retaliation against Israel -to hell with unity concerning greater issues. Clinton responded by telling Erdogan in Istanbul that his censorship of journalism and the internet wasn’t acceptable. Whatever full course press is going on to bring Egypt and Turkey, Pakistan. Iraq and Afghanistan in line, there is a clock ticking on Obama. While I have my reasons not to disengage with all of the above at the moment, there does come a time Obama’s gonna have his bluff called…..
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/if-we-retreat-from-iraq-will-iran-take-over/2011/07/14/gIQA4ZscKI_story.html
Max,
My favorite GW skeptics are Joe Bastardi and Roy Spencer; both have forgotten more about meteorology than many have learned.
As Big Joe says though, right now in Texas the fire hydrants are fighting over dogs.
U.S. Drought Monitor:
http://www.drought.unl.edu/dm/monitor.html
Now, if thorium could power desalinization of Gulf water…the Gulf of Mexico, that is.
yesjb: A welcome and accurate rejoinder. I reside in a Yishuv in Gush Etzion across the Green Line (disputed territories). Arabs who reside in both Shomrun (Samaria) and Yehuda (Judea) are, for the most part, delighted by the Jewish presence as it allows them (Arabs) a good deal of paid work which, given that they pay the Arab administration neither taxes nor anything for power while food is relatively cheap, is well paid. Although your referent carries what might be a mideastern name, “Sammyman”, it appears that he really does not know Israel nor the Westbank and is very similar to most Israel detractors. Two more items: 1) Westbank Arabs are not of one mind re Israel. Many want Israel to remain as its presence allows for greater democracy and freedom as well as extended economic benefits, 2) Westbank Arabs are riven by factionalism. They are made up of huge extended families and clans. They originally came (nineteenth and twentieth centuries) from many different peoples and nations including, but not limited to, Greece, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Syria and Kurdistan, etc. They spoke many different languages and had very different backgrounds. What they had in common was the Muslim religion although that varied considerably (and still does) as many of their forefathers were forced to convert. Unlike Jews, whose myths, stories and history go back many thousands of years in an unbroken chain insuring the fact that Jews from many different nations may associate due to common and very powerful archetypes (for which they have suffered considerably), the Palestinian Arabs have nothing other than the myth of the Dome of the Rock, the Nakba and now the Naksa. Were they powerful symbols, we would see many Arabs returning to their socalled homeland the way Jews do. But they don’t. Those Arabs who scream most vociferously about Jewish domination of the Holyland (like Sammyman) would never think of returning. The myths and therefore the associations, are just not powerful enough. Furthermore, they are mainly falsehoods.
“And the people are very intelligent in Egypt, even farmers in Upper Egypt.”
If I recall the ethnic mix of Egypt properly, this essentially means “even our blacks are intelligent”. Real charming racist fellow…
Robert Haymond,
Thanks for your interesting backgrounder. As I said recently, this classroom of Michael’s has many valuable lessons for those of us at a distance.
Yesjb,I’ll look into the water issue. If I find I am wrong I will say I am wrong.
Robert Haymond: “Many want Israel to remain as its presence allows for greater democracy and freedom as well as extended economic benefits”….”They originally came (nineteenth and twentieth centuries) from many different peoples and nations including, but not limited to, Greece, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Syria and Kurdistan, etc.”
Robert, I wonder if even you believe this shit.
“Those Arabs who scream most vociferously about Jewish domination of the Holyland (like Sammyman) would never think of returning.”
I am from Lebanon, Robert, though I presently reside in the Northwestern US. I visit Lebanon as often as I can afford to, time and money-wise. It is quite a wonderful, endlessly fascinating place.
Craig: “Shit is going to hit the fan in Europe in the not too distant future and we will o9nce again see what Europeans are really like, when they aren’t promoting humanitarian socialist utopia.”
THe European Union is moving headlong toward a total collapse of its financial system. That said this is going to be BEYOND interesting.
” instead of acknowledging that this shit is wrong, that it is racist”
If Israel is “racist”, excuse me RAAAAAAAAAAAACIST!!!!!!!, then what does that make the rest of the Middle East? As for acknowledging that Israel does things that are wrong, you know it’s really, really important for us here on in Michael’s blog to point out when Israel does something wrong. Becuase Israel *never* gets criticized for its faults – not by the UN, not by the MSM, not by the Europeans.
This is so “Clash of Civilations”. This guys non stop hints at conspiracy theories reminds me of the Egyptian accusation not to long ago that the Zionists were responsile for a shark attack at Sharm el Sheikh. Same thing goes for blsming the West for all the troubles in the Arab and Islamic world. It is a cultural mindset that is completely different from that of the Wst and it must be dealt with and not judged. His transparent references to “democracy” were laughable. Michael , Iwas hoping oyu would bring up the situation of the Copts in Egypt to see his view. Also how would he feel to have All the Jews that left Egypt come return and claim their property?, etc.
Question for Michael:
Recently an Israeli journalist came back from a visit to Egypt in which he interviewed people from a;; views and walks of life. He claomed that what united them all was their hate of Israel and/or the Jews. Is he spreading “they all hate us” paranoia for Israeli consumption or does he have a point, even if only partially?
Let me understand. If the US intervenes against a dictator (Saddam Hussein) it is evil, and if it does not it is also evil. Also, the whole thing was caused by a small group. Obviously he means “the joos”. This is the country where the Protocols of the Elders of Zion was a television series.
RockRega: He claomed that what united them all was their hate of Israel and/or the Jews. Is he spreading “they all hate us” paranoia for Israeli consumption or does he have a point, even if only partially?
I know Egyptians who don’t hate Israel, but they’re the minority. Most people here are definitely anti-Israel. That’s true in every Arab country. For the most part they hate an Israel that exists in their minds, not the Israel that exists in reality.
I do not, however, detect the presence of people who yearn for armed confrontation with Israel. And I have it on good authority that the army is still implacably opposed to a war with Israel.
I can pretty much guarantee that Egyptian-Israeli relations will deteriorate, but they aren’t likely to deteriorate to pre-treaty levels.
MJT, very interesting interview. You shouldn’t have left France under the bus though. You should have also pressed him harder on Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan.
For example, did he recognize the post June 2004 Iraqi Government as fully sovereign and legitimate? Did Esam El-Erian strongly condemn all violent attacks against the ISF? If not, was this because of his deep personal hatred and bigotry for Shiites and Kurds as well as any Iraqi Sunni Arabs who “collaborated” with Iraqi Shiites and Iraqi Kurds? Does Esam El-Erian at least acknowledge the military victory won by the GoI and ISF in 2007 and 2008?
Similarly, pin him down on whether he supports violent attacks against the GIRoA and ANSF. Ask him if he strongly opposes all international efforts to surge ANSF capacity. If so, does he acknowledge the relationship between the Pakistani Army/ISI [can add many Gulf Arabs as well] and Al Qaeda/Taliban and what role does this play in Esam El-Erian’s desire to keep the ANSF weak?
I would have also asked Esam El-Erian if he was willing to criticize the slaughter of Shiites in Kurram Agency Pakistan by Sirajuddin Haqqani/Taliban/Al Qaeda. Similarly ask Esam El-Erian if he is willing to on the record condemn Osama Bin Laden for his famous massacre of thousands of Shiite civilians in Gilgit, Kashmir in 1988. Would also ask Esam El-Erian if he is willing to condemn Osama Bin Laden for massacring thousands of Afghan civilians [and a few Iranians] in Mazar e Sharif, Afghanistan, in 1998.
Regarding Israel, I would have asked him if he agrees that a majority of all Israelis were either non Jewish Arabs [23%] or Jewish Arabs. Would he acknowledge that many Israeli citizens are Iraqi Israelis? If so, was he anti Arab in attacking Israel so vociferously? If not, why not?
Would ethnically cleansing Egypt of Palestinian Arab Egyptians who have been born in Egypt from parents to moved to Egypt in 1948 [as Esam El-Erian advocates] amount to “crimes against humanity” or “war crimes.” In what way was he less anti Palestinian than Lieberman or Bibi Netanyahu [who I like possibly Sammyman and Victor regard as anti Palestinian.]
Sammyman, I have also tried to study the water issue. Confusing. One of the best informed people on Palestine and Israel is “Soldier No Longer in Iraq” from Abu Muqawama and Ink Spots. As you probably know the world’s largest water desalinization plants are being built in Israel/Palestine. Water in Palestine/Israel is too expensive for cost effective agriculture. Subsidies for agriculture strike me as misplaced. Similarly, heavily subsidizing water for settlers strikes me as deeply distortionary and harmful.
Comment 214: Many countries around the world are unfairly violently attacked, have to hear foreigners publicly call for the destruction of their state, and are unfairly criticized. This happens all the time. Please stand up for freedom and justice everywhere. Please stand up for all the oppressed.
Sammyman, I am learning a lot from your comments [as I do from Terry, Rani and others.] Can I ask you a question? Have you read Andrew Exum’s research on Lebanon? If so, how would you respond to Andrew’s views on Hezbollah and the efficiency with which Hezbollah spends money on military capacity and social services capacity/execution?
To your point on the global financial crisis; Greece was far more irresponsible than any other country. It is sad that Greece is threatening a much larger crisis, and that Greeks are so unapologetic about the harm they have caused. I hope the Europeans are regretting not letting Turkey into the EU. Turkey is projected to have close to a balanced budget next year.
“For the most part they hate an Israel that exists in their minds”
If only they could learn about and, better yet, see the Israel that actually exists. Your statement strikes me as an appropriate quote/observation for a future book, Michael. Actually, it seems to speak volumes.
I hope such a future work will be translated into Arabic and widely disseminated.
To Sammyman:
213. sammyman I visit Lebanon as often as I can afford to, time and money-wise. It is quite a wonderful, endlessly fascinating place.
From wikki and official Lebanese publications. These are the 18 recognized sects of Lebanon: Alawite, Armenian Catholic, Armenian Orthodox, Assyrian Church of the East, Chaldean Catholic, Copts, Druze, Greek Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Isma’ili, Jewish, Maronite, Protestant, Roman Catholic, Sunni, Shi’a, Syriac Catholic, Syriac Orthodox.
Notice “Jewish”
One of the biggest lie ever in demographic statistics JEWish AS A SECT IN LEBANON !!!
JEWS. The Jews of Lebanon were ethnically cleaned 100%. There are few old people here and there but the trib, the community, the society was exterminated completely by the people and the government of Lebanon. Nothing like that was ever done to the Palestinians. You were bla bla bla about ancient European history. This happened in your time and perhaps some body you know is even now at this very moment enjoying their property.
Before you are talking about the Palestinans can you say a word about that?
Robert Haymond wrote “They (Palestinian Arabs)originally came (nineteenth and twentieth centuries) from many different peoples and nations including, but not limited to, Greece, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Syria and Kurdistan, etc.”
and sammyman replied “Robert, I wonder if even you believe this shit”
Sammyman, part of palestinian Fellachin really are relative newcomers – some came in late Ottoman period, some came during British Mandate.
Exact percentage is hard to define, but every reasonable estimate shows that this percentage is significant.
Anan, Misrachi and Sephardi Jews in Israel are _not_ “Jewish Arabs”. Jews are nation, not religion. Would you call Lebanese Armenians “Armenian Arabs”?
For Max,
Skepticism about global warming is just that, skepticism, not ideology or dogma. Science transcends belief, or it’s not science.
WHAT
IS
MATTERS
@Paul S. #220/221:
You might be interested to discover that an Israeli political science professor started a set of Facebook fan pages in several languages, including Arabic, to explain Israel to the world.
Surprisingly, he mentioned that once the Arab Spring got started the Arabic fan page received over 2000 public “likes” and half a million views (evidence of the viral effect), positive public comments from all across the mideast, and even the phenomena of fair-minded Arab visitors getting together to denounce trolls who came to mouth off on the page.
The English verison of Daily Candy from Israel is here:
http://www.facebook.com/mydailycandyfromisrael
The Arabic version is here:
http://www.facebook.com/nubdha.tayiba.min.Israeel
For the latter, I suggest playing around with Google Translate to see what’s going on. Unfortunately, it’s not a perfect solution, but with it you can get the gist of the blog topics and comments.
yesjb,I’ll look into the water issue. If I find I am wrong I will say I am wrong.
Maybe you should have done that before you posted your egregious racist nonsense.
Have a nice day!
Former Student,
Let the viral spring flower, with technology as its catalyst.
Anan, we have looked at links from Exum on Lebanon which Victor brought up and his research papers I posted bases his views begins with questioning the idea Hizb’Allah is a terrorist group. So much for your pointing Exum out. I repeat “alleged terrorist group?” Tell us all, do think Hizb’Allah is an “alleged terrorist group”?
Taking money from Iran to hand out for social services PR is nothing new. Perhaps you should read Michael’s posts or even his book to open your eyes. Hizb’Allah murdered Hariri and yet you bring up Exum.
Some interesting comments (some I agree with) that reveal deeper sentiments : http://www.cnas.org/blogs/abumuqawama/2011/06/picking-through-tim-pawlentys-middle-east-speech.html
“on 02 Jul 2008 at 11:37 pm2 Andrew Exum
Over the past few weeks, I have been repeatedly asked to imagine how Hezbollah might respond to an Israeli or American strike on Iran’s nuclear facilities. Invariably, the question that gets asked is whether or not Hezbollah would strike civilian or military targets outside the battlefields of southern Lebanon and northern Israel—where Hezbollah has concentrated the overwhelming majority of its operations. Chuck Freilich’s post seems like a good place to weigh in with some thoughts.
In some ways, I feel that I am poorly qualified to offer any informed comment. As a social science researcher with expired security clearances and no access to classified intelligence products, I cannot make any authoritative claim about Hezbollah’s external activities and capabilities. The best presentation I have heard on Hezbollah’s alleged external operations and capabilities was given by MESH member Matt Levitt not too long ago, and part of what made Matt’s presentation so compelling was his humility. He was up front and honest about how little we know and admitted that most of what is out there in unclassified reports is largely speculative.
That said, even if Hezbollah possesses a potent external operation, I feel attacks on Western targets outside the Middle East are highly unlikely. First, I agree with Freilich that it is significant that Hezbollah did not attack targets external to southern Lebanon and northern Israel in 2006 despite coming under direct, heavy pressure by the combined might of the Israel Defense Forces in July and August of that year. We can sit back now, in 2008, and reason that Hezbollah was never threatened existentially in 2006. But I’m not sure that’s the way it appeared to Hezbollah in the first week or so of the war—when the Israeli air force was seemingly attacking at will and a powerful ground invasion appeared likely. So if Hezbollah is not going to attack external targets when it is under attack itself, would it attack external targets in the event of an attack on Iran? Maybe, but this leads me to my second point.
As recently as January, the United States had 196,600 military personnel deployed to Iraq and surrounding countries. It had 25,700 personnel deployed in support of operations in Afghanistan. If you’re Iran, your nuclear program is attacked, and you decide to respond against the United States, why would you order terror attacks external to the region when you can simply make life miserable for the United States in Iraq? The past year and half have demonstrated that despite impressive gains in Iraq and a truly heroic effort by our soldiers and diplomats, a large portion of that country’s security environment is determined by the Iranians, who have leverage with nearly all of Iraq’s political parties and factions. If Iran desires to turn the heat up there or elsewhere in the region, it can. And punishing the United States in such a way for an attack on Iran’s nuclear program makes a lot more sense than Hezbollah-orchestrated external terror attacks.
This is also why I suspect an Israeli attack on Iran’s nuclear program would be greeted with outrage among America’s uniformed officer corps. Although Israel cannot be expected to act in the interests of any nation but Israel, an Israeli strike on Iran’s nuclear program has the potential to erase many if not all of the hard-won gains in Iraq and to make the environment there and elsewhere in the region much more dangerous for U.S. servicemen. I am in agreement with Patrick Clawson and Mike Eisenstadt that Iran’s response to an attack on its nuclear program would largely depend on what kind of attack it was—and that there is much that we do not know about how Iran would respond given various scenarios. But as a veteran of both the Iraq and Afghanistan wars and with many close friends still serving in each country and elsewhere in the region, I would certainly understand why an Israeli attack on Iran would, at this moment, not be welcomed (to put it mildly) by those operating in already difficult political-military environments in Iraq and elsewhere.”
http://www.registan.net/index.php/2011/06/27/does-this-make-sense/ Anan at work
And of course reality: hxxp://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Politics/2011/Jul-18/Hezbollah-to-harm-further-STL-credibility-Fadlallah.ashx#axzz1SSaQH3Lb
Many countries around the world are unfairly violently attacked, have to hear foreigners publicly call for the destruction of their state, and are unfairly criticized. This happens all the time.
WTF?
Max,
“Israeli strike on Iran’s nuclear program has the potential to erase many if not all of the hard-won gains in Iraq and to make the environment there and elsewhere in the region much more dangerous for U.S. servicemen.”
All those hard-won gains will go up in smoke the moment the US leaves…no actually before as things are working out.
An active defense against Iranian hegemony will never take place under Obama.
The Iranians see the US as a paper tiger and nothing under the present administration will change that.
Well, I wonder if Craig would support defending the Kurds against Iranian aggression. They do like us. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14189313
I agree Yesjb and I posted those comments to show the weakness in thinking….
yesjb, the IRI will see us as a paper tiger right up until the day they die. The regime could be destroyed and they could be hiding in ratholes like Saddam was and still they would be belittling and insulting us. It’s in their supremacist nature.
Maxtrue: Well, I wonder if Craig would support defending the Kurds against Iranian aggression. They do like us.
I would. In fact, I’ve thought for years that if we really wanted to get draw the IRI’s military into a fight where we could destroy it and call ourselves the good guys while we did so, that we’d work that strategy around Kurdish independence. Too late now, though. I don’t support air wars without ground troops and we don’t have the ground troops in the region to do it anymore.
This, by the way, is also one of my major complaint5s with Exum in that post of his you linked earlier. he always seems to see the US in a reactive roll. That’s not a proper military mindset. It’s the mindset of somebody who loses a lot. Nobody ever won a war by reacting to what the enemy was doing. This is a military guru?
Barry Meislan, do you really not know what North Korea’s dictators say about the South Korean government, Japan and the US? Are you really unaware of North Korean unprovoked attacks against South Korea and Japan? Do you really not know what Afghans and Pakistanis say about each other to this day? [Afghanistan's President in the 1970s stupidly made fun of Pakistan and talked about moving the Durand line further east, and Pakistanis have helped destroy Afghanistan with Afghan proxies ever since.] Are you really unaware about what many Pakistanis and some Gulf Arabs say about India? Are you really unaware about what some Taliban factions say about Russia? Are you really unaware about what many Africans said about each other during the great Congo war of the 1990s in which perhaps 7 million Africans died? Are you really unaware about what many Azerbaijanis and Armenians said to each other in the 1990s? About Armenian, KDP, Serbian rhetoric towards Turkey? About what Turks use to say about Kurds [its better now]?
Maybe you should pull up a you tube video of Chemical Ali [Saddam's brother] talking about killing 20 million Iraqis for the “true Arab nation” [which he mentioned numbered 5 million "real Iraqis" who happened to Sunni Arabs.] Maybe you should listen to the type of nonsense many non Iraqi Arabs talk about to this day, often wistfully dreaming about the genocide of 15 million Iraqi Shia and 6 to 7 million Iraqi Kurds. Or hear what they “REALLY THINK” about Iranians. Not Iran’s atrocious dictator Khamenei, but Iranians in general.
Woe is me. I am oppressed. I feel so sorry for myself . . . Yes we all know the drill. Maybe try caring about the oppression of others once in a while.
“All those hard-won gains will go up in smoke the moment the US leaves…no actually before as things are working out.” You wish. The ISF is stronger now. Gen P4 and Gen James L. Jones both publicly said in mid 2007 than the ISOF was as good or better than any other special forces in the middle east [implicitly including Israel.]
Yes the US Congress has since 2003 stupidly tried to block the arming of the ISF with quality armaments. Offering Iraq more dumbed down new F16s than the US offers to Egypt, Tunisia, Morocco, Jordan and the GCC. Refusing to transfer used US F16, used US F15s and other quality US military gear to the ISF. Some Iraqis are suspicious about the role of the Israeli lobby in this. Stupid is as stupid does.
“An active defense against Iranian hegemony will never take place under Obama.” The primary resistance to Khamenei’s hegemony doesn’t come from the US, nor does it have to.
“The Iranians see the US as a paper tiger and nothing under the present administration will change that.” Most people around the world see the US in economic decline. Please stop painting all Iranians with one brush. Most Iranians back the greens against Khamenei.
Yes Craig, Abu Muqawama “is a military guru.”
Admit to being biased though.
Have never understood why you are more focused on Iranian extremism than GCC/Pakistani extremism.
Anan,
“Please stop painting all Iranians with one brush. Most Iranians back the greens against Khamenei.”
You’re a total fool, Anand! Who do you think I was referring to, those revolting against the regime?
You’re the only one who didn’t get it, but that’s no surprise judging from your “wacko” posts.
If you believe the iraqi military or government will prevail once the US is gone, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
You are woefully and completely living in a parallel universe. You have no grasp on reality at all and just make it up as you go along.
“Gen P4 and Gen James L. Jones both publicly said in mid 2007 than the ISOF was as good or better than any other special forces in the middle east [implicitly including Israel.]”
That’s just massaging their egos, you nul!
Get a grip!! TW its no longer 2007, or did you even notice.
Michael,
To go off subject – I am interestsed to know (and I hope others are too) what it is in the Egyptian psyche that causes the occasional (frequent?) lynch-mob environment such as when Lara Logan was attacked or the various attacks on Coptic communities and churches. Is this especially Egyptian or may it be pan-Arab? Is it an “built-in hatred of the “Crusaders”? Inferiority thing? Pride/Dignity excess?
Anan,
Yes Craig, Abu Muqawama “is a military guru.”
Admit to being biased though.
Evidence? He seems to me like one of those self-help guys who bounces from one conference to another giving motivational speeches, while selling amway products on the side. But I admit to being biased too
Have never understood why you are more focused on Iranian extremism than GCC/Pakistani extremism.
I’ve never understood why you praise Hezbollah and the IRI in these threads as often as you have. We’ve had this discussion before.
#237
RockRega,
The activity of the Egyptians in this context is not unique, not by a long-shot.
Nor is it confined to the Middle East and North Africa.
I’ll leave it at that.
To Rockrega (#237): You raise a legitimate point about the lynch-mob mentality in Egypt, and I have an anecdote in that regard. I have family who were Egyptian Jews. In early 1949, my uncle and his pregnant wife went to the cinema one afternoon. While they were watching the movie, word got around Cairo that there had been a skirmish between the Israeli and Egyptian armies. By the time my uncle and wife left the movie theater, mobs had formed that wanted lethal vengeance. I forget the details, but I remember they told me about an American soldier in a jeep who found them and drove them to safety. Meantime, the mob found someone else (a Muslim, it turned out) whom they thought was a Jew, and they apparently lynched him. When I heard about Lara Logan, I remembered that incident. Didn’t surprise me at all.
Anan, you know exactly the thrust of questions asked of you, but you dance around. Its deflection and one of your Gurus Ackerman wrote a lengthy email once about using strategic deflection including using bogus claims of racism to tar GOP leaders. Of course you knew Yesjb was talking about the IRI, the Mullah’s and that maggot Ahmadinejad.
Your claims regarding Afghanistan troops still sound silly and pointing to Pakistan where US drones conduct strikes show to a high school student the difference in US approach to Iran and Pakistan. Please tell us fools the rejection by who of claims made by India, South Korea, Southern Sudan concerning aggression towards them. Perhaps only those engaged in the aggression? You compare this to Israel’s situation where elements in the West defend the actions of Hamas, Hizb’Allah and the IRI? Name one country that supported the sinking of a South Korean ship? Name one country that supported the new attacks in India. Who has applauded the new graves found in Sudan?
Do you disagree with Exum that Hizb’Allah is a terrorist group rather than an “alleged terrorist group”?
Do you deny from even the latest open sources that Iran is already making inroads into Iran using violence including attacks on the Kurds? What happened this last week was that the UN embarrassed Erdogan and 13 Turkish soldiers were killed by unknown assailants. I warned of false flags yes? This pushed Erdogan’s buttons. Ahmadinejad moved at the opportunity to exploit this as Assad is crumbling Iranian’s position in Syria.
If you were anything more than reactive, you would propose things IN ADVANCE. You would present your brilliant policy to end Iran’s terror support and nuclear designs. Instead you have always minimized these. You would explain how Pakistan and the Taliban are turned. Nada…. You would explain how Iraq stays safe. Nada…. You would show the path of freedom in Lebanon or how anyone in their right mind would treat Gaza as ready for Prime Time. Nope you just spout along….
“Yes the US Congress has since 2003 stupidly tried to block the arming of the ISF with quality armaments. Offering Iraq more dumbed down new F16s than the US offers to Egypt, Tunisia, Morocco, Jordan and the GCC. Refusing to transfer used US F16, used US F15s and other quality US military gear to the ISF. Some Iraqis are suspicious about the role of the Israeli lobby in this. Stupid is as stupid does.”
We should have armed a disbanded army quality items? What do you plan those “dumbed down F-16s” for, attacking Israel? The role of the Israeli Lobby? At the present course, advanced weapons and even those F-15 you would have delivered might now likely end up as parts for the Iranians. Or did you imagine Iraq would confront Iranian aggression in the skies? Note how you absolve responsibility of the Iraq government and the Shia for failing in seeking unity and instead push it on the US. Does Exum do that? Patraeus or Mullen, Gates or Panetta?
“You wish. The ISF is stronger now. Gen P4 and Gen James L. Jones both publicly said in mid 2007 than the ISOF was as good or better than any other special forces in the middle east [implicitly including Israel.]” You’re on drugs…..(in mid 2007…lol)
The primary support against the regime and the IRI should come from that element that can defeat them. Or do you base hope on a group decimated by regime terror alone? If the demographics and power in Iran resembled your fantasies, these elites would already be gone. They shot their generals upon taking power and forced thousands in absurd tactics into certain slaughter.
What would you do to prevent an Iranian nuclear bomb? Be sure to check with your guru first….
I remember now why I ignored most of your posts….
Do you disagree with Exum that Hizb’Allah isn’t a terrorist group but rather an “alleged terrorist group”?
Big difference….
Craig wrote to anand: “I’ve never understood why you praise Hezbollah and the IRI in these threads as often as you have. We’ve had this discussion before.”
The simplest explanation is that anand is Shiite. This is also consistent with his extensive babblings about takfiris and about Marjeyahs…
@Sammyman #197. Your “facts” do not agree with either the US Census Bureau or the FBI crime database. In the last 20 years, murder and violent crime of all types have been on teh decline in the US. In 2008 there were little over 16000 murders and/or non-negligent homicides. Most of those centered in and around our 10 largest cities.
What we have here, that I would bet they don’t in most African or ME countries, is the world’s best database on crime. I would be willing to bet that much of the violent crime that goes on doesn’t get reported or is reported wrong. Remember, some of these countries allow “honor killings” that do not get reported as murder or even as violent crime. Some of them will not report, as murder, an Arab who kills his/her Philipino maid. Many will not report, as murder, a Sri Lankan dude killing another Sri Lankan(lots of Sri Lankans in the ME used as slaves). So you are comparing apples to rocks with that one!!
Del @243, If I was going to guess I’d say it has more to do with his odd theories about how the Aryans came out of India and populated Europe. He’s obviously got some kind of ethnic nationalism going on there that includes Iranians (Aryans). But I don’t like to guess about such things because people guess about what motivates me all the time, and it pisses me off
Anand: Please stop painting all Iranians with one brush. Most Iranians back the greens against Khamenei.
Most Iranian dissidents – from what I’ve seen on Iranian blogs – think that Lebanese Hezbollah is disgusting. You don’t. So, who are you to speak for Iranian dissidents?
This has been an interesting thread. Some very good comments, good discussions.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/07/18/report-iran-threatens-to-cut-oil-supply-to-india/
I wonder if anyone else sees the extraordinary back and forth going on. Now Iran attacks Kurdish positions IN Iraq after 13 Turkish troops are ambushed (by who?). Pro-Assad tribal leaders threatens to eat Ambassador Ford should he enter Al-Zour which has a large Kurdish population. Hizb’Allah moves to secure more control over Lebanon’s security organs. Turkey plans the next Flotila. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Cops-probe-calls-from-Iran-to-plant-bombs-in-Meerut/articleshow/9277904.cms
And Iran seeks some “understanding” with Pakistan.
hxxp://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/MG19Df02.html
Iranians are making deals with the Taliban and are quite frantic about Assad. Turkey is wavering as usual first trying to be civil to Cyprus and Greece and then demanding results. The UN report makes a liar out of Erdogan. We see the hissy fit… In Egypt here’s something El-arian probably agrees with: hxxp://www.memri.org/clip_transcript/en/3035.htm
On another note, at some point in the future the asteroid belt is going to rock and roll. I never realized its effect presently on Earth’s eccentricities. Note that chaos prevents any certainty of future impacts on the earth, but we had better have a good rock sapper by then…. hxxp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110715135156.htm
Max,
Do we even know how many boulders of what size are rolling around in the asteroid belt, let alone their trajectories?
NEIGHBORHOOD
MAPPING
Max @247, everyone’s running scared because South Asia is going to blow and the US is heading for the door. Future not so bright in the Arab ME, either. And the IRI is caught in the middle. No honor among thieves, though, is there? All this jockeying around won’t save them from what’s coming. I have no idea why the US was trying to maintain the dysfunctional status quo for so long, but this reckoning is long overdue in my opinion.
Not sure what Turkey’s plans going into the future may be, but they seem like the odd man out. No place in Europe, and no place in the ME either. Plus, they have that “no honor among thieves” problem too. In spades.
#245 – “If I was going to guess I’d say it has more to do with his odd theories about how the Aryans came out of India and populated Europe. He’s obviously got some kind of ethnic nationalism going on there that includes Iranians (Aryans).”
He has it ass-backwards – the invasion came from the northwest into India, and hence why north Indians and the upper Hindu castes have lighter skin. (Persisting, of course, thanks to India’s unusually heterogeneous breeding groups.)
I’m just watching this thread…so far…
AHEM,
R
Well Paul, hope this makes you happy. It seems that chaos has infiltrated into our Newtonian Solar System. All the ephemerises will have to redone.
The implications for climate science is significant. http://www.aanda.org/index.php?option=com_article&access=standard&Itemid=129&url=/articles/aa/full_html/2011/08/aa17504-11/aa17504-11.html
Also as we learn more about the incredible solar storms and filaments that sweep out from the sun, attention is turned to what protects us: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080305173341.htm
Changes in our magnetic field is causing changes in the belt that protects us. This has a few effects; allows more radiation and cosmic particles to reach the surface, alters the entry point as poles migrate and wane, effects living systems and the climate. In July 1962 with things heating up with the Soviets America detonated space nuke Starfish Prime:
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starfish_Prime
and observed a new radiation belt:
hxxp://news.google.com/newspapers?id=138yAAAAIBAJ&sjid=iukFAAAAIBAJ&pg=3822,1639621&hl=en
This EMP blast followed by a persistent radiation cloud orbiting disruptively for some time over the denotation area is what people talk about when discussing the EMP threat. And like Ceres and Vesta colliding and setting the asteroid belt towards the inner planets, so too chaos waits the collision of WMD and humanity….
chaos and hiss
This is interesting stuff, even if the math challenges my brain.
From AP, via The Iconoclast blog:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2011/07/17/international/i081004D94.DTL&type=politics
“HAMZA HENDAWI, July 17, 2011
CAIRO (AP) — The soldiers shouted, “Raise your head high, you’re Egyptian.”
It was one of the most inspiring chants by young protesters during Egypt’s revolution, encapsulating the newfound pride of a people rising up after a lifetime of humiliation under authoritarian rule.
From the soldiers, it was a taunt…”
Two spins…
Mr. Ackerman weighs in on Tahrir Square….
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/07/egypt-social-media-activist/
And so does Juan Cole…….
http://www.juancole.com/2011/07/qaddafi-was-linchpin-of-corrupt-dictatorships-in-tunisia-egypt.html
So who’s the neanderthal? hxxp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110718085329.htm
“But Maher raised eyebrows when U.S. reporters — including me — got emails from an Los Angeles PR firm called the Levine Communication Office talking up Maher. Steve Cook of the Council on Foreign Relations contended, “Perhaps they don’t understand how their engagement of an American public relations firm might look to their fellow Egyptians.” That is: inauthentically Egyptian.” Ackerman
Really? Would you have raised your eyebrows if you got emails from the Muslim Brotherhood? Wouldn’t that have looked more authentically Egyptian? Really? Did you raise your eyebrows because the emails were from an “American” PR firm, or that it was “Levine” PR firm?
And from Cole we see…
“How important Qaddafi was to Hosni Mubarak’s police state needs to be further investigated. But there is growing evidence of his baleful influence. (There is? I thought the Jews were behind it) How the left-leaning (western supported) post-colonial regimes in Tunisia, Libya and Egypt deteriorated (really Juan, really?) into seedy police states with vast domestic spying apparatuses, secret prisons, torture, press censorship and ultimately crony capitalist cartels is yet to be completely understood (but less relevant as deciphering the existing shit regimes you’re not particularly bothered by), but the evolution of Muammar Qaddafi into king of kings of Africa (Jesus Juan) is an important part of this story.” Cole
Yes Professor Cole, Mr. Qaddafi is “an important part” of the horrific evolution of the MENA’s POLICE STATES. Was there a Golden Age? I can’t wait for the next installment where Juan focuses in on the real culprits responsible for the insanity and violence……
Something tells me where that’s going…
Sorry about missing this one from the first jump – but I love it!
Oh what a picture!
I see Richard Trumka holding a meeting with Esam El-Erian discussing how to best apply US Union funds for the purchase of flowering plants for the ‘Arab Spring’.
“They would be Egyptian / American plants”!
“No – No – No Egyptian Spring – Egyptian plants!”
“Bull shit they are my plants – it’s my dues money!”
Funny but not so funny!
Paul, to quickly finish the Starfish Prime story, we then built an enhanced nuclear warhead weighing about 150lbs and figured out a way to fire it up at 100gs so fast that it could detonate and EMP-fry the enemy’s incoming warheads. That was almost thirty years ago. As for hitting warheads with metal, we have come to the limit of that technical ability as objects are becoming too fast and too many.
As for the doughnut shaped belt that protects our atmosphere from the intense solar winds and ejecta; it consists of charged particles trapped by earth’s magnetic field which migrates, waxes and wanes over the epochs. Lucky our magnetic field for now is positioned exactly where it can minimize radiation from the sun. Witness the glowing curtains in the sky where the charges rippled down to earth at the poles through the doughnut hole. Mercury’s field is bizarre.
Like the chaos introduced by the asteroid belt rendering indecipherable the record of earth’s orbit over hundreds of millions of years, these magnetic belts and the currents they protect ourselves from are also chaotic populations of “things” reacting with the irregularities in both magnetic field and the changing nuclear reactions of the sun in addition to the gravitational influences of the planets moving in the solar winds and the constant streaming of cosmic particles. The multitude of non-linear processes come alive everywhere. And for us humans, the spectrum of visible light that penetrated to earth’s surface and drives the atmosphere was captured by a chemical photosynthesis within self-reproducing organic complexes. What started out as Newtonian clockwork based on ideal algorithms has finally become an amazing open system of non-linear chemical and organic organization pushed far from equilibrium by the power of the sun and the 400 trillion watts of heat coming from the radioactive and molten earth. Added to these are the centrifugal forces of moving bodies, from the black hole in the center of the Milky Way right down to the atomic spin of our sub atomic constituent parts, each resonating with all other local constituents like Ceres and Vesta.
Chaotic systems sculpted by the irreversibility of time.
Seems light years from Cairo… another population pushed far from the point of equilibrium.
You’ve got me interested in the Dawn mission, Max.
“Image of Vesta Captured by Dawn on July 17, 2011″
http://dawn.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/dawn_vesta_image_071711.asp
Broadsides into the melee…
Is Juan Cole (still) re-writing history to suit his own fantasies?
===
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan%E2%80%93Egyptian_War
“On January 26, 1976, Egyptian Vice President Hosni Mubarak indicated in a talk with the US Ambassador Hermann Eilts that the Egyptian government intended to exploit internal problems in Libya to promote actions against Libya, but did not elaborate.”
My pardon for the Wikilink, there are much better accounts of that short nasty little war between Libya and Egypt written by both John Keegan and James Dunnigan, but they’re not online. They’re found in books.
At one point during the Carter era, Qaddaffi was reported to have sent hit squads to Cairo to assassinate Ambassador Eilts, prompting the peanut farmer to get his dander up and threaten Qaddaffi back.
Apparently in Juan Cole’s left twisted little fantasy world, Cowboy Reagan just upped and bombed poor ol innocent Col Qaddaffi for no apparent reason(s). Because apparently in Juan Cole’s mind, that’s what those “evil, fascist, Republican, right-winger cowboys” do.
===
On Exum…
His tactical experience as a combat company commander would invaluable as a training tool. But it seems to be neither offered nor received at the combat company training level in the US military. (puh-lease, FM 3-24 is not a tactical combat manual. It’s a small wars strategy guide to failure in a world war.) So sad…
His strategic acumen is seriously lacking and all too obviously biased towards defeatism and isolationism. It’s also rather easy to see where that bias is coming from…
Ronan the banned accidentally gave the hint already…
Andrew Bacevich.
Seen here under the V-8 chainsaws of logic and well documented historical facts…
http://render64.wordpress.com/2010/07/05/endless-war/
===
Is it ok for me to be just a little bit confused as to why some people get paid so very much to be so very wrong consistently for so very long?
“If there’s a new way, I’ll be the first in line.
But it better work this time.”
-Dave Mustaine &…
MEGADETH,
R
oh yeah…About that crack Iraqi Army?
http://home.comcast.net/~djyae/site/?/blog/view/97/&PHPSESSID=bf98852e4701b49e5abd0b41f62326d3
FACE
PALMED,
R
Rock Rega: To go off subject – I am interestsed to know (and I hope others are too) what it is in the Egyptian psyche that causes the occasional (frequent?) lynch-mob environment such as when Lara Logan was attacked or the various attacks on Coptic communities and churches. Is this especially Egyptian or may it be pan-Arab? Is it an “built-in hatred of the “Crusaders”? Inferiority thing? Pride/Dignity excess?
That was an extremely disturbing incident, but violent crime here is lower than it is in the US, so I’m not at all convinced that Egypt has any more of a lynch mob mentality in general than anywhere else.
Crime is going up now, though, even though it’s still very low by world standards. Yesterday I spoke to a prominent Christian who said that Egyptians (both Christian and Muslim) and limited by society whereas Westerners are self-limited, so some people here are more likely to behave badly at a time when state power is weakened than Westerners would be under similar conditions. It’s as good a theory as any other I’ve heard, but I’m not an expert on this particular phenomenon.
Michael, I believe in terms of per capita, assaults against women are higher in Egypt and I have not heard of any incidents in the US where the groom rapes the bride in front of her in-laws on her wedding night. Have you? According to Rachel below, this isn’t about religion or Egyptian culture. In fact, the violent attacks against religious minority is higher and a neonazi party that is free to unfurl its banner in public is also something we don’t have as much of here. Let’s take a look at this brilliant piece of of BS: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rachel-newcomb/blame-the-muslims-violenc_b_824008.html poverty? drinking water…hhhhmmm, proximity to Israel? Okay, excuse the sarcasm…
Render, you got that all right. Cole lives to fit pieces of “facts” into his personal narrative against the West which is why Michael beats him yearly as the best ME journalist. Exum is what they won’t do to his blogging record a century from now especially if his defeatism and isolation helps lead us to new lows in leadership and the rise of Sino Muslim power…lol.
http://www.pipelinenews.org/index.cfm?page=alamoudi7182011101.htm Setting the MB free…..
Great link to the review of Iraq forces Render….Iran, obviously has the easiest invasion logistics….
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/e-nina-rothe/life-imitating-art-how-ca_b_862332.html
http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/1/64/16766/Egypt/Politics-/Liberals-dominate-Egypts-new-cabinet-after-reshuff.aspx
Most violent crime in the US is drug related. Maybe Egypt doesn’t have as many addicts and therefore lacks the large scale criminal supply system.
MJT, I’m stunned by your comment @262. What are you basing your statements about “low rates of violent crime” in Egypt on? The numbers published by Egyptian police?
As far as the “lynch mob mentality” that’s not even the most disturbing and disgusting part. The rally bad part is that nobody in Egypt gives a shit when incidents like this happen. Which wraps back around to your endorsement of comic book crime stats. I don’t believe for a second that a society which treats such horrific violence as if it’s a triviality has low rates of criminal violence.
Yes, I’m a bit surprised too Craig http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-13796966
I think Michael was talking about homicides per capita…..
Maxtrue: I have not heard of any incidents in the US where the groom rapes the bride in front of her in-laws on her wedding night. Have you?
I’ve never heard of it happening in Egypt either.
a neonazi party that is free to unfurl its banner in public is also something we don’t have as much of here.
I have seen no evidence in Egypt that such a party even exists. It certainly isn’t playing any significant role.
Some things get blown out of proportion in the media. (Big shock, I know.)
Craig: MJT, I’m stunned by your comment @262. What are you basing your statements about “low rates of violent crime” in Egypt on?
I’m stunned that you’re stunned. No Arab country has a high rate of violent crime, unless you count Iraq, but Iraqi violence is of a very different nature. Cairo is an extremely safe city. Everyone here knows that. It’s not controversial.
Some comments on misc. comments.
The UN has statistics on countries’ homicide rates, listed here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#cite_note-unodc0310-33 Please read the introduction – it’s not all apples to apples. I found this list and a different set of homicide numbers yesterday. The homicide rate for the US from one of the lists (don’t remember which) was about 5.8 times the homicide rate for Egypt. In other words, the reported homicide rate for Egypt could be under reported by almost 500% (very highly unlikely) and it would still be less than that of the United States. My best guess, and it is an educated guess, is that Egyptian society is less violent than American society.
Regarding the mob assault on Lara Logan and what that says about the Egyptian people as a whole (I really don’t know – I don’t know much at all about Egyptians as a whole). What happened to her probably happens every day here in the US. Google “Knockout Game”. This is simply random, stranger-on-stranger violence, purely for the sake of violence. Or Google “Flash Mobs”. (For example, one story from Fox News yesterday: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/06/18/top-five-most-brazen-flash-mob-robberies/ ) And these things are growing *fast*.
Don’t get me wrong. I sure as heck would rather live here in the US than any Muslim country. Or any other country, for that matter. I still live in the best country in history. But when it comes to stranger-on-stranger and mob violence, we have nothing to brag about.
(As an aside, while violent crime has declined in the US over the past three or so decades, the nature of violent crime has changed. It has changed from family and acquaintance crime to crime against strangers.)
Moving on. The Pew poll cited above *does* show that “At least three-quarters of Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan say they would favor making each of the following the law in their countries: stoning people who commit adultery, whippings and cutting off of hands for crimes like theft and robbery and the death penalty for those who leave the Muslim religion” (from Pew’s summary). The questions were specific/explicit. And I think the idea is absurd that Pew didn’t tell the interviewees that they were part of a poll, that the subjects didn’t know that they were being polled.
Other Pew statements in its summary of the poll (as you can see, it’s a bit of a mixed bag): “The survey also finds that Muslim publics overwhelmingly welcome Islamic influence over their countries’ politics. In Egypt, Pakistan and Jordan, majorities of Muslims who say Islam is playing a large role in politics see this as a good thing, while majorities of those who say Islam is playing only a small role say this is bad for their country. ……….Similarly, at least three-quarters of Muslims in Egypt (85%), Nigeria (82%) and Jordan (76%) consider Islamic influence over political life to be a positive thing for their country ………..In Egypt and Nigeria, however, most Muslims who see a struggle in their countries [between modernizers and fundamentalists – my insertion] say they identify with Islamic fundamentalists (59% and 58%, respectively). ……..majority of Muslims in Egypt (59%) say democracy is preferable to any other kind of government. ………About six-in-ten in Egypt (61%) and Indonesia (59%) and more than four-in-ten in Jordan (44%) and Turkey (43%) are also concerned about [Islamic] extremism in their countries. …………One-in-five Muslims in Egypt and Jordan offer support for suicide bombing in defense of Islam, as do 15% of Indonesian Muslims. Yet, far more in these three countries say these violent acts are never justified; 46% of Muslims in Egypt and a majority in Jordan (54%) and Indonesia (69%) reject suicide bombings.”
The poll summary is here: hxxp://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/ (Change the hxxp to http.) It has a link to the full report in the upper right hand corner.
That’s not to say there is no violence, but it’s definitely at a low level. The high-profile cases you’re familiar with made the news because they aren’t typical. Arab countries are generally (with the obvious exceptions of war zones) among the safest places to travel in the entire world.
The northern Sinai is sketchy now, though. Some Bedouin are robbing people on the highways at gunpoint, but that’s the Sinai, not Cairo.
I take my personal security very seriously and always check the lay of the land before I go anywhere. I have to make a habit of this because sometimes I do visit the darkest and most dangerous parts of this region.
I think Michael was talking about homicides per capita.
That’s the only number that has any meaning. Cairo is one of the largest cities in the world.
Iraq is less violent than it appears from far away, too, by the way. As far as I can tell, that’s true of every Arab country except for Sudan and possibly Yemen. (Somalia doesn’t count because it’s not really Arab.)
Don’t get me wrong, by the way. I’m not saying all is well here. The condition of this country in general is catastrophically bad.
The problems Egypt has to contend with right now are (in no particular order), calcified military rule, reactionary Islamism, extreme poverty and underdevelopment, widespread illiteracy and poor education, knee-jerk anti-
Americanism and anti-Zionism, and a general climate of illiberalism. The military is on the defensive and liberals (I use the word generically) are a bit more visible now, but otherwise this place is just as backwards and dysfunctional as it was when I came here six years ago.
A culture of violence (and the associated militarization of politics) is one serious problem that Egypt blessedly lacks, unlike Lebanon, Iraq, and Gaza.
MJT,
Do Egyptian Copts view Cairo as an extremely safe city? My impression from the news is no. Nor would American Blacks have viewed, e.g., Birmingham, Alabama as a safer city 50 years ago, even if, statistically, there were fewer homicides per capita than in, e.g. New York City [note: I don't have statistics on homicides in either city; my point is in the "if"].
About Iraq, your comment that violence is “of a very different nature” is unclear to me. If you mean that most violence is directed by nominal “insurgents” against the “state”, or by “state” security agents against “insurgents”, I would immediately wonder what Chaldeans or Assyrians think of such an assertion.
I’m stunned that you’re stunned. No Arab country has a high rate of violent crime, unless you count Iraq, but Iraqi violence is of a very different nature. Cairo is an extremely safe city. Everyone here knows that. It’s not controversial.
I suppose everyone knows that sexual assault, robbery, assault with a deadly weapon, murder, torture, and etc don’t count as “violent crime” in Arab countries as well, then.
I don’t even know what to say. However, I just became much less interested about reading your interviews with Egyptian liberals.
In some cases Michael, Egyptian women didn’t even know there were laws against harassment. http://www.almasryalyoum.com/en/node/476947 Also assualt and rape are very under-reported but I’ll take your word for it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/06/world/europe/06iht-letter06.html
hxxp://213.158.162.45/~egyptian/index.php?action=news&id=19880&title=Egypt%E2%80%99s%20future%20in%20Western%20eyes Professor Brown becomes a Muslim
hxxp://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1108.html#crime
PS: That’s not to say there is no violence, but it’s definitely at a low level. The high-profile cases you’re familiar with made the news because they aren’t typical.
Actually, they didn’t make the news in the Arab world. They made the news in the west, and only because the victims were westerners and westerners were reporting on them. Which is part of the problem. If even such horrific incidents are not even treated as crimes at all in Egypt, than what value are crime stats in Egypt even if the Egyptian authorities were honest instead of being corrupt?
http://harassmap.org/ but as I said very under-reported which is why some countries are high in ranking. We see the same problems with cancer demographics. The best healthcare systems usually report the highest number of incidents….
The lack of Egyptian police will take a toll. And then there are statistics involving foreigners. In Jamaica the homicide rate is rather high, but for tourists extremely low.
PS#2 Micheal, I read a blog post by a western woman living in Cairo a couple years ago where she posted a video she shot on her cell phone of an incident she witnessed on her way home from a club. An Egyptian woman was being assaulted by another women and several men. There were knives as well as rocks. After about 10 minutes some cops showed up and told the assailants to go home, which they reluctantly did. That’s far from the only incident she talked about on her blog though it is one of the only ones she documented with proof. Do you think she’d call Cairo an extremely safe city? Do you think that incident was counted in the stats? Do you think police in the US would tell a group of people assaulting a woman with deadly weapons and beating her severely to just go home?
Craig, the plural of anecdote is not data. I didn’t say violence is unheard of in Cairo. It isn’t. It’s a huge city, bigger than all of Lebanon and Israel combined. The fact that you can point to incidents of crime does not mean that Cairo is more dangerous than America.
Egyptians think America is the most crime-ridden place in the world, and they can point to scary numbers that make their assertion look valid to those who don’t know any better. Don’t do the same thing to them.
Del: About Iraq, your comment that violence is “of a very different nature” is unclear to me.
Iraq didn’t experience a wave of serial killings and muggings. Iraq experienced terrorism, sectarian cleansing, and war. I know that you know this, so why are you arguing with me?
You guys seem to be arguing that since Egypt is not 100 percent non-violent that Egypt is therefore more dangerous than America. This strikes me as preposterous, especially while I’m in Cairo and you have never been here.
I routinely go to places that are more dangerous than America. This isn’t one of them. I’m sorry if you want to believe that Egypt is more dangerous, but it isn’t. If you derive emotional satisfaction from slagging Egypt as inferior, I’ll give you plenty of real material in the coming days. There is no need to invent any fake reasons.
I do not see a Sexual assualt taking place on the Harassmap at Tahrir Square. Does anyone? I guess that makes my point. I see 4 Rapes or Sexual Assaults taking place in Cairo proper in the last seven years. Is this even reasonable? While America does indeed have a great deal of violent crime, the response of the justice system, the number of suspects sought and indicted and the sentences they get figure greatly into the overall picture of justice. How many were tortured? Who served time for more than 800 people killed?
This started out as a question of how women and minorities are treated. In that regard, I view Egypt with a great deal of disdain. Beyond that, I leave it to experts….
experts include you Michael…..
And my Egyptian friend mentioned his concerns that guns will become more prevalent in Egypt push crime upward, but in general he agreed with your assessment regarding homicides….
Much of the killing in Iraq is sectarian. I guess that’s what it is called in Sudan, Somalia and Afghanistan. Turkey, by the way has a very high homicide rate. They do however, tend to report crime more often….
I just became much less interested about reading your interviews with Egyptian liberals.
Read something else then. It’s obvious to everyone here that you hate Egypt. I don’t like it either, and I will be happy to leave, but I didn’t come here to feed your prejudices or anyone else’s.
One reason I like to visit the places I write about is because it provides me with a more keenly calibrated bullshit detector than I can acquire at home. I don’t know a single person here, Egyptian or foreigner, who believes Cairo is a more dangerous place than America. Your anecdotal evidence can’t compete with that. I’m sorry, Craig, it just can’t.
You can use anecdotal evidence to “prove” just about anything. I could use anecdotal evidence from this trip to make an argument that Egypt is actually pro-Israel (I’ve met a number of Egyptians who are). Egypt, though, obviously isn’t pro-Israel, because the plural of anecdote is not data.
I guess the dangers I am most concerned about Michael are ones of war and terrorism. I am certainly glad you are safe which would have been a different story in Syria.
Maxtrue: This started out as a question of how women and minorities are treated.
They’re treated badly. Christians are second class citizens, the tiny minority of Shias are treated even worse, and women are harrassed constantly.
But that doesn’t mean I’m going to get mugged at gunpoint on my way to get coffee.
You guys should give me some credit. Do you seriously believe that I’m not aware of my security environment when visiting dangerous places is part of my job? I do this for a living, and I take way more precautions than most people.
Syria most definitely is not safe.
My impression is that in many Arab societies, violence against those who conform to social “norms” (often Islam-based) and keep their head’s “down” is relatively low. However those who do not conform, perhaps because they are simply ethnic or sectarian minorities, or even women out alone in public, or certainly those who don’t keep their heads “down” because they protest against the state or its policies or actions, are subject to considerably more intimidation and physical violence than non-conformists in what are generally described as liberal democracies.
As for Egypt, the reports of numerous neighborhood defense committees formed in the immediate aftermath of Mubarak’s overthrow suggest that Egyptians don’t (or at least didn’t) see Cairo, or Suez, as extremely safe places.
Were those reports of the formation of neighborhood defense committees inaccurate or unrepresentative?
Del,
Egyptians are worried because the crime rate is going up. And it really is going up. But it’s still lower than what we’re used to.
It’s going up for two reasons. Mubarak let a bunch of criminals out of jail, and the police and the army have a weaker presence on the street. They’re almost invisible now, which is a huge change since the last time I was here.
It looks and feels like no one is in charge of this place, which is pretty strange for an Arab country, but this isn’t Iraq. It’s not even close.
If you were here with me, you wouldn’t be arguing with me about this. Really, you wouldn’t. Looking at a country through solely media reports is like looking at a landscape through a pinhole.
MJT,
You wrote, “Iraq experienced terrorism, sectarian cleansing, and war. I know that you know this, so why are you arguing with me?”
Yes, that is part of my less than perfectly written point, with the emphasis on the “cleansing”. And I’m not looking to argue really, just discuss. Did I come across as rude?
Michael: Craig, the plural of anecdote is not data. I didn’t say violence is unheard of in Cairo. It isn’t. It’s a huge city, bigger than all of Lebanon and Israel combined. The fact that you can point to incidents of crime does not mean that Cairo is more dangerous than America.
Unless you’re prepared to vouch for the data that the infamous Egyptian police publish as being reliable (which I doubt that you are) then you are using anecdotal data too
Egyptians think America is the most crime-ridden place in the world, and they can point to scary numbers that make their assertion look valid to those who don’t know any better. Don’t do the same thing to them.
Egyptians also think that Americans are fatter than they are, because the stats say that we are. I guess they don’t own mirrors, eh?
Craig: Unless you’re prepared to vouch for the data that the infamous Egyptian police publish as being reliable (which I doubt that you are) then you are using anecdotal data too
Fine. And of course I don’t believe any official statistics that come from the police in this country.
But look. I always inquire into local security conditions. Always. I sometimes look slightly paranoid when I do it, even though I am not. And not a single person here thinks I’m in any significant danger. That includes US government sources who live here. Not all my sources are Egyptian.
I’m not going to stand up and say they’re all wrong and refuse to listen to anyone when what I hear is unanimous. That’s no way to behave in strange countries. An attitude like that would be extremely arrogant, would prevent me from ever learning anything, and might eventually get me killed.
If you were to visit Cairo and feel all paranoid about security, it wouldn’t take long before enough people around you told you to chill that you would, in fact, eventually chill. And you’d feel safe enough walking the streets anyway that you’d learn to chill all on your own. The mood of this place is way too lethargic to be scary. I’m always alert because I’m aware that a percentage of this society is totally nuts, but it’s hardly in the grip of a serious crime wave.
MJT: Read something else then. It’s obvious to everyone here that you hate Egypt. I don’t like it either, and I will be happy to leave, but I didn’t come here to feed your prejudices or anyone else’s.
I guess I’ll take you up on that and just skip your “Egyptian Liberal” posts. I was regular on Mona Eltahawy’s blog for years and she the pet Egyptian liberal of the western media outlets. I was also a regular on most if not all the Egyptian blogs that people think of as liberal. If I just wanted to read bullshit I’d go back there. I was hoping you’d press people and get them to answer teh hard questions and not just repeat the stupid talking points, but your willingness to give Egyptian culture a pass on some pretty egregious violence and the tendency of the authorities to brush it under the carpet indicates to me you probably aren’t going to do that.
And Michael, I haven’t ever been to Egypt but I spent years of my life in the third world and I could tell you stories about what happens outside of the tourist areas that would make your skin crawl. We have nothing similar in the US.
Craig: I guess I’ll take you up on that and just skip your “Egyptian Liberal” posts. I was regular on Mona Eltahawy’s blog for years and she the pet Egyptian liberal of the western media outlets.
I didn’t interview her. She’s not even on my radar.
If you knew what I know about some of the people I’ve interviewed, you wouldn’t want to skip what they have to say. But I can’t tell you what I know about some of them because they could get in serious trouble. That’s true of people in almost every country I work in–especially Lebanon, but also Egypt to a lesser extent. I know all kinds of things that I cannot tell you (some of it personal, some of it classified, some of it on background, and some of it things they should never tell journalists), but I factor it all into my analysis. If you don’t want to trust me on this, then I have nothing else to say about it.
And if you think they’re contemptible just because they happen to live here, then it’s probably time for you to read something else.
I will say, however, that some Egyptian liberals are not really liberals–and I’m smart enough to know the difference.
My last comment on this, and sorry for letting my “hatred” (why is it my fault that 92% of Egyptians or whatever hate the US?) derail this discussion.
I always inquire into local security conditions. Always. I sometimes look slightly paranoid when I do it, even though I am not. And not a single person here thinks I’m in any significant danger. That includes US government sources who live here. Not all my sources are Egyptian.
US government sources in Egypt disagree with the US State Department travel advisories? Some of the advisories for tourists the last few years have been pretty alarming, particularly when it comes to female visitors being sexually assaulted and the additional difficulties they face when trying to report crimes. I realize you aren’t female and probably aren’t traveling alone, but that seems like it might be a bit of a red flag.
I’m not going to stand up and say they’re all wrong and refuse to listen to anyone when what I hear is unanimous. That’s no way to behave in strange countries. An attitude like that would be extremely arrogant, would prevent me from ever learning anything, and might eventually get me killed.
You’re talking to the wrong people. The US military is who an American wants to hear from when they visit another country. They know the truth, because they live with the truth. Listening to people whose job it is to promote tourism might very well get a person killed, though.
If you were to visit Cairo…
I wouldn’t visit Cairo.
…and feel all paranoid about security, it wouldn’t take long before enough people around…
Being paranoid about your security when you are a stranger in a country with a hostile population is a very good thing. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.
,,,you would, in fact, eventually chill. And you’d feel safe enough walking the streets anyway that you’d learn to chill all on your own….
Yes, that kind of complacency is extremely dangerous. It’s always good to know where you are, who is there, and to have a plan to get out of dodge in a hurry if that becomes necessary. It’s also good to know if you are in a country where you really need to run from the cops if they show up to “investigate” something that involves you.
Anyway, I’m sure you know all these things Michael. You’ve been around. I’m still surprised you seem to be willing to let your own perceptions trump your common sense, from time to time
Oh, and Mona Eltahawy may be Egyptian, but she does not live in Egypt. She’s part of the global left-liberal media culture and a completely different type of person than those I’ve sought here in Cairo.
Craig: And Michael, I haven’t ever been to Egypt but I spent years of my life in the third world and I could tell you stories about what happens outside of the tourist areas that would make your skin crawl.
What makes you think I did not leave the tourist areas? I’ve been to places in Egypt that not even Egyptians, let alone Western tourists, are willing to go.
Craig: You’re talking to the wrong people. The US military is who an American wants to hear from when they visit another country.
What makes you think I haven’t talked to the US military? The army has a presense here in Egypt, you know.
Seriously, man, you’re making some huge assumptions about me and how I work that are totally off.
And yes, I’m aware of the problems women have in this society, especially foreign women. I have written about it before. I would never–ever–take my wife here.
Craig: Yes, that kind of complacency is extremely dangerous.
I’m not complacent when I’m out and about, but I’m not afraid either. I don’t scare easily. If I did, I would have chosen a different profession.
I visited one place in Cairo where I was strongly advised to bring security with me, so I did. The reason I knew to bring security is because I asked. And the reason I asked is because I am not stupid.
Anyway, my point is that Cairo isn’t Detroit.
Yes, that kind of complacency is extremely dangerous. It’s always good to know where you are, who is there, and to have a plan to get out of dodge in a hurry if that becomes necessary. It’s also good to know if you are in a country where you really need to run from the cops if they show up to “investigate” something that involves you.Anyway, I’m sure you know all these things Michael. You’ve been around. I’m still surprised you seem to be willing to let your own perceptions trump your common sense, from time to time.
Craig, you are an unbelievably arrogant jerk. Who the hell are you to warn a journalist who’s been to some of the most dangerous places in the world of complacency? You, who’s never even visited Cairo! People have pointed out that the per capita homicide rate is 5 times as high in the USA. Do you really believe more than 80% of the homicides in Egypt are unreported? And what the hell do you know about how Egyptian cops would behave in investigating a crime? You’re a perfect example of an ignorant ideologue who will stick to his prejudices no matter what information he receives from people far better informed than he is. It really lowers the tone of a blog to have comments from someone like you.
ZK: Do you really believe more than 80% of the homicides in Egypt are unreported?
Wouldn’t surprise me in the least if much more than 80% of *all* crime in a place like Egypt went undocumented. Why? How much of the crime in Egypt do YOU think is unrecorded (whether “reported” or not)? Or do you just accept what the police in a place like Egypt say is the absolute truth? lol
No, I haven’t been to Egypt. But if Egypt is as safe as you claim it is then I’ve been to places that are far worse. In fact, I seem to live in a place that’s far worse! Who knew?
Sorry for breaking my promise to not talk about this anymore, Michael, but there’s a difference between insults and discussion and I don’t like to let insults go unanswered.
Proximity’s lessons:
“Egyptians think America is the most crime-ridden place in the world”
Japanese, with limited experience in America, have expressed the same fear to me. Two recently arrived students asked to see my gun, and were taken aback when I said I didn’t own one.
“it provides me with a more keenly calibrated bullshit detector than I can acquire at home.”
“Cairo isn’t Detroit.”
A report I remember from a while back concluded Basra, Iraq wasn’t either, by a significant margin.
Craig, I have friends who are Egyptian and most are friendly towards Israelis and definitely grateful for America. Yes, they aren’t so typical of the Egyptian street. I am sure at least one has read this thread. They don’t make excuses. One had El araby as a professor for four years in an Egyptian university only to read his pathetic pep talk to Assad a few days ago. Most would hardly move back at this point, but there are significant numbers of “moderates”, no matter the Press reports. Nasser, poverty, elites who manipulated the street and clerics with too much time on their hands… have created quite a mess as Egypt lives on loans from Dubai and KSA. Since I know normal Egyptians and respect the historical record, I look forward to Michael’s posts as do many.
On the other hand, I hope Egyptians and other Arabs understand the abject anger there is in America for pay-rolling illiberal States, sacrificing American blood in the ME and having to suspend normal expectations of respect and reciprocity for people who dislike us and work against our interests.
Our modern friendship with Egypt began after Nixon stopped the Israelis from destroying Sadat’s army in 73 after an initial tough and dangerous fight in the Sinai. Only two years later, Kissinger told Iraqi officials that the US wouldn’t mind Israel becoming a Lebanon as Nixon WH had no problems making deals with the Arab world at Israel’s expense (Sunnis were in charge of Iraq).
Funny how much of the Arab world resembles Lebanon these days in some sense.
Oil, the Suez, the Gulf and our security arrangements with NATO, Israel, Jordan, KSA prevent us from a quick exit. You can be sure however, this is deal time….
ZK, what cops? I see the crowds quite hostile to the police. Aren’t they hated? Under-reporting is a known fact in Egypt and if you read the European report of 2011 on world crime (Google), how many suspects are detained, how many are indicted and imprisoned is an important factor of a country’s “justice”. As Michael pointed out the treatment of women and minorities in Egypt is unacceptable by western standards and that was what started the comparisons. Americans do no accept a culture that accepts female harassment and sexual intimidation nor do we tolerate religious persecution. I would not be shocked that those crimes are grossly under-reported or not acted on by officials. Ever heard of virginity tests?
While Craig might be turning on the octane a bit much, he is essentially rejecting “US partnership” with a State that works against our interests, our allied interests and the values of Liberal Democracy. He would include Pakistan, Turkey and Libya and probably other countries as well. He is entitled to his opinion, though he would be more considerate to Michael to state this in a way that doesn’t disparage Michael’s work as a professional journalist IN EGYPT.
I would like to see what there can be done to change the direction in Egypt, but if you suggesting that we should continue assistance and “friendship” if a vast majority hate us and their leadership promotes contact and relations with our adversaries, I would disagree. Do you want money going to those who revere the Protocols of Zion or translate Mien Kamph into Arabic? While the result in Egypt is far from decided, I am willing to see what happens, but I can understand how some have found their patience expired…..
Keep on trucking Michael and don’t worry about the audience….
psss….Paul…..http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/07/milky-way-ribbon/ Queequeg’s coffin
Wrapping a bow around our core, Max; this is endlessly fascinating stuff.
We’ve only just begun; save JWST!
Maxtrue @307, I cried my last tear for the Arab world in 1983. If they want to get out of their situation and we can help them, I’m fine with that. What I’m not fine with is them wallowing in their own shit while telling us how much they despise us and demanding that we do more for them. After 9/11 I made a serious effort to get on the blogs and try to find Arabs who didn’t like things the way they are. I haven’t had much luck with that. However, I’m not advocating we throw all Arab countries under the bus. Just Egypt.
Keep on trucking Michael and don’t worry about the audience….
I agree with that, and I’m sure MJT will keep calling it the way he sees it. It doesn’t matter if I agree with him or not. He’s a neocon and I’m not, so we’re going to have some pretty serious disagreements right from the get-go on foreign policy anyway
Come on now, folks, why can’t we jes’ all get along…
(and blame Israel for all the scores of billions of dollars poured into Egypt since the peace accords—I think that’s what they’re called, though maybe “non-belligerency accord” is more accurate— were signed)…
…and let Michael do his yeoman’s work.
(I wasn’t aware that he was forcing people to read his blog! Well, you learn new things every day!!)
After 311 talk backs just an observation. In the whole MENA
ITS NOT YET FINISHED !!!!
I think that of all places in the MENA Egypt is a good place to be, though I think that one of the many facts that MT will bring from Egypt is that also there nothing is finished yet.
As very clever others, and stupid me, suggested, at the begining of the story in Libya, it can go on there for ever. Even the shape of a possible end is not known. The gov. of the USA is talking much too much and signing checks that can not be easily cashed.
In Syria already there are areas to which the army can not enter. And in other places the army keep diligently killing civilians. The opposition is split, there are reports of Sunni killing ( slowly in pieces) Alawaits, Sunni Killing Durzi and Christian living in fear, as you know the Jews left that place. Alawites in govenment service and as gangs are involved in too much killing and the accounts are being kept and will be paid with interest. When Ramadan come any thing can happen.
In Lebanon the take over by Iran ( called there Hizballa for some reason) is pracically complete.
Turky is cooking a strange brew and the planned Turkish PM visit to gaza may end in a vey ugly way.
Several un-needed stupidities done by the present, not very clever, Israeli government are also contributing to the whole mess.
Wouldn’t surprise me in the least if much more than 80% of *all* crime in a place like Egypt went undocumented.
Your lack of surprise at a highly implausible conjecture isn’t worth much. Even corrupt police forces are under considerable social and political pressure to catch criminals and keep the streets safe. Assuming the worst of a society without evidence is exactly what the Muslim Brotherhood guy was doing.
No, I haven’t been to Egypt. But if Egypt is as safe as you claim it is then I’ve been to places that are far worse. In fact, I seem to live in a place that’s far worse! Who knew?
I have been to Cairo on a short visit and noted the large number of tourists there, but I wouldn’t claim that amounts to much compared with the knowledge of a seasoned journalist. On the basis of your experience, you should claim even less.
I would like to see what there can be done to change the direction in Egypt, but if you suggesting that we should continue assistance and “friendship” if a vast majority hate us and their leadership promotes contact and relations with our adversaries, I would disagree.
I wasn’t suggesting a damn thing except avoiding a knee-jerk rejection of facts and perceptions, made by a highly credible sources (MT), that don’t fit in with one’s own prejudices.
Do you want money going to those who revere the Protocols of Zion or translate Mien Kamph into Arabic?
Absolutely not. I just don’t think the best way of fighting extremism is to display the same ignorant bigotry of the extremists.
ZK “Absolutely not. I just don’t think the best way of fighting extremism is to display the same ignorant bigotry of the extremists.”
Don’t get me started ZK. What Craig said doesn’t come close to the daily transcriptions of the declarations of bigoted extremists. Go to Memri and see for yourself.
There must come from some US quarter a clear and definite red line that affirms we will not support a country that hates us and works against out strategic interests. Stewart diced and sliced Musharraf last night on the Daily Show. So he used humor. He basically called Musharraf a liar as Musharraf refused to even talk about the use of terror groups IN THEIR STRUGGLE WITH INDIA.
China at least contributes to an economic partnership. KSA tries to keep a lid on oil prices. But Turkey and Egypt, who plan a Gaza provocation had better understand there is consequence to screwing with us and further boiling a street to dislike us. I don’t know how you say this without sounding harsh. After I posted a comment on Ahram (see link above) they removed two hostile comments towards the US from the comment thread posted by Egyptians. Go see. Ahmed is no longer there saying Egypt has zero like for the US. Without push back, leadership there will not weigh the consequences clearly. Perhaps you consider the editor from Newsweek calling Obama a dick, bigoted extremism. Maybe you would call Cain a bigoted extremist. There is a huge gap between harshness and bigoted extremism. Maybe you favor what this guy thinks: http://en.rian.ru/russia/20110719/165285700.html
But it ain’t going to happen. I would argue (and have) that now is time to make clear the stakes and part of that is recognizing our own disgust for the illiberal and “partners” who think us idiots and without principle. SO far Erdogan hasn’t figured out how to be safe from GAZANS as he makes provocation plans as pay back to Israel and the US for shifting diplomacy in Libya to Russia and the UN’s report on Turkish BS regarding the Flotilla. Neither have Israelis found safety in GAZA. An emotional reaction to provocation and hatred, narcissism and political exploitation including the “Israeli” and “US ” card by Egypt and Turkey should be met with an unambiguous “NYET”. Sometimes that comes across over the top, but that hardly makes it bigoted extremism. Even the Egyptian military weighs the consequences of its rabid street: http://articles.boston.com/2011-07-17/news/29784694_1_military-plans-constitution-islamist
Barry, and you know what happened to Jack……
What some of back room dealing is about: http://en.trend.az/regions/met/arabicr/1903382.html
http://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/trend-lines/9461/israel-cyprus-maritime-border-deal-fuels-mediterranean-energy-tensions
Egypt and even more so Turkey have some issues at stake here. With Cyprus leading the EU in 2012, we see the erratic policies oscillating between muted support and public provocation. I see mules jockeying for position using typical double talk.
We see worse forms in Syria, Libya, Lebanon and Pakistan. We see it in Afghanistan and Sudan. Now Somalia needs immediate food relief or millions will die. People playing a game of poker at Atlantic Beach would have already been bounced from the game.
hxxp://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gioYfi5mbbBsOOjuRUNh4JRTnlkA?docId=ac87daf76e014e53a991327bfab1bab5
US demands Pakistan advertize US AID. Thinking linearly however, has its consequences…..
Maxtrue #316: Your quote ( http://articles.boston.com/2011-07-17/news/29784694_1_military-plans-constitution-islamist).
I suspect that the real reason is: who will be as generous as the US?
if the US stops aid to Egypt, which was going for the military, who will give them money……………
ZK,
Your lack of surprise at a highly implausible conjecture isn’t worth much. Even corrupt police forces are under considerable social and political pressure to catch criminals and keep the streets safe.
Now you are into an area where I can claim some expertize, and what you just said there is bullshit. The only “pressure” put on police in a corrupt police state is to make sure nobody of importance (such as tourists, rich people, or foreign dignitaries) has an unpleasant experience. Catch criminals and keep the streets safe? You must be joking. The polioe usually ARE the criminals in countries like that. At best, they are on the take and being paid off by criminal gangs to not see what they aren’t supposed to see, and not catch who they aren’t supposed to catch. In the average 3rd world dictatorship it’s impossible for a lowly peon to even report a crime, let alone have it be investigated. The people live in too much fear of the police to be willing to expose themselves to the risk of trying to report a crime that may involve somebody with a lot of influence.
Assuming the worst of a society without evidence is exactly what the Muslim Brotherhood guy was doing.
But, I do have evidence. Since I said I wasn’t going to rant specifically about Egyptian crime in this thread anymore, I won’t get into it, but if you spend an hour or two with google you can find plenty of evidence – much of it on the blogs of EGYPTIANS – that indicates Egypt falls into the category of “third world police state”. And, I have much experience with those.
I have been to Cairo on a short visit and noted the large number of tourists there, but I wouldn’t claim that amounts to much compared with the knowledge of a seasoned journalist. On the basis of your experience, you should claim even less.
You said MJT had visited some of the most dangerous places in the world earlier. What are those places? What places has MJT visited that are more dangerous than Egypt? (Iraq doesn’t count because he was embedded with the US military). You can’t have it both ways. Either these countries are safe or they are dangerous. They can’t be safe and dangerous at the same time.
The Egyptian military may prove to be the only thing that can save Egypt from the MB. If they are co opted by the Islamists as in Turkey, then the military will become an extension and no doubt an extremist one of the MB; banging on the war drums.
Hopefully the US will cut off all military equipment if that happens (but Obama might try an end run around Congress)
Iran would only be too willing to step up to the plate…for a price, of course
Well Yesjb, that is what the Egyptian military is considering. On the other hand they’re considering a provocation in Gaza with Erdogan. I wonder if Michael has been able to talk to anyone in the military establishment.
Now how do you deal with this? http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=230235
I’m sure Craig would say, don’t deal at all. Personally, I don’t see the politicians doing anything to break this cycle of thinking. More likely, it will be fertile ground for further exploitation from that crazy place we call Egypt….
Now that leaves the military with crap options…
From that article on the Egyptian military and the proposed constitution:
Proposals under consideration would give the military a broad mandate to intercede in Egyptian politics to protect national unity or the secular character of the state. According to a report last month in the Egyptian newspaper Al Masry Al-Youm, a top general publicly suggested such a role.
I have no desire to make comparisons between the United States and a shithole, but the US military also has the authority (actually, it’s an obligation) to prevent anyone from assuming control of the US Federal Government in an unconstitutional manner. I’m just arguing semantics here, though, because to suggest Egypt is going to end up with anything resembling democracy when it’s populated by Egyptians is to make a mockery of democratic principles. There’s not 1 person in 1000 in Egypt who could even define democracy in a way that made sense, and there’s not 1 in 100 who’d even want it even if they understood it perfectly.
I’m sure Craig would say, don’t deal at all.
You got that right. It’s the dysfunctional relationship the US has had with Egypt the last 30 years combined with the fact that Egyptians hate America so much despite our “long-term friendship” that convinces me we have a moral obligation to let Egyptians fend for themselves. The survivors will be better off for it. And even if they aren’t, we’ll at least be able to laugh at them from a distance without having to explain why it is we’ve been borrowing money from China to give it to assholes in Egypt who don’t even like us anyway. Seriously: how stupid is that? Let the Chinese give money to Egyptians directly, without running up our debt and making us look like sleazeballs who pay off dictators. We need to stop getting in the way and let nature takes its course. Mother nature knows how to deal with psychopaths who lack survival traits.
What places has MJT visited that are more dangerous than Egypt?
Most of the places I’ve visited are more dangerous than Egypt. The biggest hazard in Cairo is traffic. Many US military families (with women and children) live there. The army puts it in the “safe” column.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2011/07/20/international/i114601D33.DTL No foreign election monitors? Not even Jimmy Carter?
Michael, does the military speak of an alliance with more liberal youth who fear the Islamists?
If the interest in such data infuriates you Craig, skip it. Mindsets are not stone. Already many things have changed in Egypt. Some good, many bad. I don’t really know which is why I would like to read Michael’s coming posts. The old way was going nowhere. Mubarak boasted he charged Israel 3x the going rate for gas as he worked at cross purposes. I suppose the election will decide who the Egyptians really are and what their foreign policy is. I am sure leadership understands both the US’s patience and savings accounts. Both a running thin these days.
It doesn’t infuriate me, max. I made up my mind about Egypt last February. My support and my loyalties are not for sale. There’s nothing Egyptians could “offer” that would make me change my mind. I spent 5 or 6 years talking to Egyptians on the blogs and trying to be reasonable and flexible. I think that’s enough. Now, I’m just waiting for everyone else in the US to get with the program
MJT: Most of the places I’ve visited are more dangerous than Egypt. The biggest hazard in Cairo is traffic. Many US military families (with women and children) live there. The army puts it in the “safe” column.
The PI under Marcos hosted the largest US Naval base in the world and it was “safe” for American servicemen for the most part, though I never – not even once – saw American women and children off base at Subic Bay. Luckily, that base was a paradise and maybe that’s why they didn’t feel the need to go out in town. That doesn’t change the fact that crime rates in Olongapo were horrific, or that Filipinos regularly “disappeared” never to be seen again, or that the Provincial Constables ran the provinces like a mafia. Safe for tourists and US military does not mean “safe”. And even if it did, you yourself stated that you wouldn’t bring your wife to Egypt. That doesn’t sound like you think the biggest risk for Americans in Cairo is the traffic, to me
In any case this dispute started over claims that Cairo was safer than the US. I don’t buy that. I’ve yet to see anyone present any evidence of it either, other than crime stats which almost certainly aren’t worth the paper they are written on. I’d like to see some Egyptians vouch for the integrity of Egyptian police… that really doesn’t seem to be where Egyptian liberals are at at all, to me. Didn’t the revolution get sparked over police abuse? But now Egyptians want the tourism back, so it’s safe and the police are trustworthy? And one more thing: If Egyptian “liberals” wanted to convince Americans that Egypt was safe they should have strung up the perps who brutalized Lara Logan from the light posts, instead of going on facebook and making degrading and insulting comments about her. Just saying.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14222584
But US aid officials say assurances must be given that the insurgents will not interfere with its distribution.
By “insurgents” they mean Al Qaida. And I have to seriously doubt either the sincerity or the sanity of any US official who thinks Al Qaida could or would offer any “assurances” to the United States that were even vaguely useful for anything besides writing news articles. These are the people who blow up embassies, fly planes into office buildings, and murder UN aid workers. We forgot?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shabaab
http://www.informationdissemination.net/2011/07/gang-of-six-will-cut-deep-into-defense.html
Which is also why we must curb spending that doesn’t produce results. When the Navy is going to take a 23 billion dollar a year cut, the billions we hand out must be reconsidered.
Unexpectedly, I met a young man today who works at my local market. He talked about his Dad being a Maronite Christian from northern Lebanon. As I watched and listened to him describe his Dad’s stories about the country the son would like to visit, it was as if I could see a curtain of sadness descend over his expression and filter through his tone of voice. The more stories he recalled the sadder he became, which left me feeling the same way.
Craig: you yourself stated that you wouldn’t bring your wife to Egypt. That doesn’t sound like you think the biggest risk for Americans in Cairo is the traffic, to me
Because she would would be harrassed, not because she would be violently attacked. She and I spent a week in Guatemala City together, one of the most dangerous cities in the world. And that was her idea, not mine. (We were there for one of her projects, not for vacation.)
Cairo’s problems are catastrophic, but a higher-than-average violent crime rate just isn’t one of them.
Muslim countries generally have a lower rate of violent crime than Western countries. Of course this doesn’t apply to places like Iraq, Afghanistan, and Somalia, and Iceland could well be the safest place in the world, but it’s true in general, and everyone who works in Muslim countries that aren’t war zones knows this is true.
That doesn’t mean Muslim countries are better than Western countries. Violence in the lands of Islam tends toward the political/sectarian rather than criminal, and you all know what that’s like. It’s not all Lara Logan all the time over here.
Michael, I mentioned this young man’s stories about his Christian dad growing up in northern Lebanon because I’m anxious to hear your reports from the Coptic perspective.
On my way home, I thought about a criterion, a marker for a civilized society, a just society. I think it has to begin with the treatment of women, children and minorities, be they racial, ethnic, cultural, religious or political. “But America’s history…” some will say, to which I respond that most Americans don’t shrink from acknowledging past injustice; many if not most of us have learned from it and made our society better as a result.
MJT,
My impression of the Lara Logan attack is that it was not an individual opportunistic criminal attack motivated by pecuniary considerations or even merely lust. It was a group assault motivated by ideological considerations which I understand was accomplished after Friday prayers had likely whipped up some of the participants. It is better understood as what you categorize as political/sectarian but to which I would add religious/cultural. If it was not religiously motivated (she was uncovered “meat” to quote a certain Australian sheikh’s discussion of women who do not cover themselves “properly”) then it was Cairene harassment taken to another level.
That harassment differs from petty crime such as pickpocketing where the victim is, in my sense, incidental, to the cash which is the target of the crime. In Cairene harassment, and the Lara Logan attack, the woman herself is the target of the crime.
An attempted distinction between “violent” and “non-violent” crimes does not clarify here. A more meaningful distinction would have to address the motivations of the attackers.
I don’t even know what “crime rate” means when the only data available is what’s self-reported by police who can’t even screw in a lightbulb without accidentally torturing a political prisoner, Michael. But don’t worry, I’m not going to start in on it again. I just wish you wouldn’t make these dubious comparisons between apples and oranges. I don’t think they are necessary, or that they add any weight to the points you are making.
That harassment differs from petty crime such as pickpocketing where the victim is, in my sense, incidental, to the cash which is the target of the crime. In Cairene harassment, and the Lara Logan attack, the woman herself is the target of the crime.
Pickpocketing is not always incidental, del. In my aforementioned example of ologapo the only people who ever targeted were American GIs, because we were the only people who had anything worth stealing. It’s also not always a non-violent crime. My first week there, before I got the memo about carrying my money in my sock, I was buying some junk from a food cart and soon as I put my wallet back in my pocket some guy yanked it right back out again and tried to run off. Marines have fast reactions and I’m faster than most, so I had him by the scruff of the neck and my wallet back in my pocket before he got done turning around. And then I noticed he was trying to put a butterfly knife in my stomach so I took that away from him too. And then I let him go, because I knew what would happen to him if i walked him down to the cops and turned him in for trying to rob an American GI. Even if I didn’t mention the part about him trying to gut me.
Sexual harassment is also not a non-violent crime in my opinion. I think in most cases the perp is seeing how far he can go. It may start verbal, but it certainly doesn’t mean that’s where it will end. Particularly in a country where violence against women is considered normal and socially acceptable, which it is in Egypt.