I’m not even close to being an expert on Turkey or what’s going on there. I know enough, however, to know I don’t like it — and that’s a shame because I like what I’ve seen of the country rather a lot.
Claire Berlinski, however, lives there, and she wrote a compelling piece for Britain’s Standpoint magazine that should be required reading for those disconcerted by what they are seeing and who want to know more.
In May, a ship full of civilians — but not full of humanitarian aid — sailed from Turkey to join the Free Gaza flotilla. Having warned the Mavi Marmara that it would not be allowed to breach the blockade, Israeli commandos raided the ship. In the clash, nine Turks were killed. I’ve lived in Istanbul for five years and I’ve spoken to hundreds of Turks about these events. A Turkish documentary filmmaker and I have filmed some of these conversations. Something will immediately strike the viewer: the Turkish people have no idea what happened. This is because the most basic facts about and surrounding these events have not been reported in Turkey.
In billing the flotilla as a humanitarian mission, the IHH — the expedition’s Islamist sponsor — exploited the Turks’ Achilles heel: their generosity. Turks think of themselves as charitable and compassionate, as indeed they are. They genuinely believe, because this is what has been reported here, that the Palestinians are starving. They know almost nothing about the reasons for the blockade. They believe that the ship was on a humanitarian mission and nothing but a humanitarian mission. They are bewildered that anyone would have interfered with such a noble-minded endeavour. They do not know that there were no humanitarian supplies on the Mavi Marmara. They do not know the most rudimentary facts about Hamas. As one man said: “These are elected people. It’s not like they took over by force, via a coup.”
Almost no one in Turkey understands any language but Turkish. If this obviously thoughtful man was unaware that indeed, Hamas took over precisely by force, via a coup, it is because he had no way to know. The men and women to whom we spoke were astonished when we told them that Israeli officials had invited the ship to disembark at Ashdod and deliver the aid overland. But they were not disbelieving — and importantly, when we told them this, it changed their view. Many spontaneously said that they knew they could not trust what they heard in the news, that the situation confused them and that something about the story just didn’t sound right.
“” They do not know the most rudimentary facts about Hamas. As one man said: “These are elected people. It’s not like they took over by force, via a coup.” “”
Take a poll of Americans, I doubt many of them know this fact.
“you just need to enforce laws based on religious sources. If you enforce the tax code, laws on foreign financing of the media and laws on religious incitement selectively, well then, voila! — you’ve got yourself an Islamist press,”
Rule of law starts with enforcement. What is enforced is the “real law”, whether it’s bully rules (give me cash to go pee), or commie rules, or political correctness (there’s no law stopping Harvard from hiring more conservative teachers, just PC).
Very sad article, especially at how easy it seems to be to manipulate the Western press.
Hamas, like Hitler, really was elected. Then, they also eliminated Fatah in Gaza, but it’s not quite a coup. It’s not much different that what Mugabe did in Zimbabwe, or what Chavez or Putin did.
Authoritarians often get elected in economically troubled times, and then become more dictatorial.
“Friendship Time”
“Friendly Hands in Black Days”
“A Great Support Organization – Five Greek Municipalities say there is no flag or ideology in humanitarian aid”
“Help Flows in from Neighbors – Russia first, Greece the most”
According to Wikipedia, these were the headlines in Turkey after the 1999 Izmit earthquake. The Turks got the chance to return the helping hand less than a month later, when a quake hit Athens.
In tragedia, veritas. In trying times, people’s true natures come out, as much in earthquakes as on the Mavi Marmara.
Excellent article! It focused on one of my greatest questions, which was why what I was hearing about Turkey in the MSM in the West was so at odds to what a very well-informed, intelligent Turkish friend of mine kept telling me. I duly forwarded the article to him and I’m eager to hear his reply.
In related news, Israel and Greece have been rapidly improving/upgrading their diplomatic and military relations. Doesn’t take a genius to understand why.
Two relevant things Erdogan said:
1. Democracy is like a streetcar. When you come to your stop, you get off.
2. The minarets are our bayonets, the domes our helmets, the mosques our barracks and the faithful our army.
Vilmos
From that essay, I doubt that Claire Berlinski has a high opinion of Vali Nasr.
Thanks for the link to Standpoint – I didn’t think there were any sane people left in Britain. Very good article by Claire Berlinski – it pretty much confirmed my opinion of what is really happening in Turkey.
One thing really stood out, at least for me. Ms Berlinski said that this is a conflict between factions of the elite, she called both groups ”thieving scum” & added that 80% of Turks would like to see a gov’t. that didn’t steal everything they could get their hands on. While you might say this applies to all countries, it is particularly appropriate for Middle-Eastern countries. It was exactly the same where I came from.
#2 Tom Grey.
How easy is it to manipulate the Western press? For the most part, the Western press WANTS to be manipulated, they have an agenda, biased towards the ”correct” view & they spin everything to push that agenda. Most journalists are lazy, uninformed, & generally incompetent anyway. Since they’re also ambitious & don’t want to screw up their over-paid careers, they just follow the pack, afraid they’ll be penalized for any independence or originality. They’re just hacks, a word which is very useful these days, not only for journalists, but for politicians, academics, & ”experts” ……..
Michael Totten.
Mr Totten, you made a comment that Israel has Muslim allies, you didn’t mean Turkey, & that the next Iranian gov’t. would be friendly towards Israel.
You did not, however, mention who these Muslim allies were & for the life of me, I can’t think of one. You surely cannot mean either Egypt or Jordan.
Care to name these allies?
Terry,
Kurds, Albanians, and Kazakhs are allies of Israel. Azerbaijan is also friendly, though I’m not sure I’d call it an ally exactly. I don’t know about the other central Asian “stans,” but I’ve never heard of any of them being hostile.
Meanwhile, Syrian and Palestinian Christians are incredibly hostile.
Describing the conflict as having nothing to do with Arabs yet involving the entire Muslim umma is just flat-out wrong.
It’s called the Arab-Israeli conflict for a reason.
Also, Terry, you yourself pointed out that Berbers, who also are Muslims, don’t buy into Arab anti-Zionism either.
And doesn’t everyone know that Kurds and Israelis are friends? I thought this was common knowledge. It’s certainly common knowledge in Iraq, anyway. And last I checked, Kurds are just as Islamic as Arabs.
“just as Islamic as…”
Hopefully, without pitting Michael, Del and maybe others in a fruitless (to me, anyway) sparring match, can we ever—to everyone’s satisfaction—define this term “Islamic”? Inquiring infidel minds want to know.
See here:
Notwithstanding its membership in the Organisation of the Islamic Conference, Kazakhstan has good relations with Israel. Diplomatic relations were established in 1992 and President Nazarbayev paid official visits to Israel in 1995 and 2000.[5] In 2006, during a state visit by Kazakh Deputy Prime Minister Karim Masimov, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert remarked, “Kazakhstan can show a beautiful face of Islam … Contemporary, ever-developing Kazakhstan is a perfect example of both economic development and interethnic accord that should be followed by more Muslim states.”[6] Bilateral trade between the two countries amounted to $724 million in 2005.[5]
In 2008, Kazkahstan and Israel began to embark on joint military developments which include Self-Propelled Guns and Multiple Launch Rocket Systems.
Paul,
The overwhelming majority of Kurds are Muslims. They are more pro-American and pro-Israel that just about anyone else.
And there are a heck of a lot more Kurds than Palestinians.
The “umma,” so to speak, is not, never has been, and never will be united on anything. Every point of view and its opposite exists in that world.
And here’s an excerpt from a piece I wrote for City Journal some time ago:
—–
Kosovar Albanians also strongly support, of all countries, Israel. “Kosovars used to identify with the Palestinians because we Albanians are Muslims and Christians and we saw Serbia and Israel both as usurpers of land,” a prominent Kosovar told journalist Stephen Schwartz. “Then we looked at a map and woke up. Israelis have a population of 6 million, their backs to the sea, and 300 million Arab enemies. Albanians have a total population of 8 million, our backs to the sea, and 200 million Slav enemies. So why should we identify with the Arabs?”
Berisha echoes the sentiment. “We have very much in common with Israel,” he says. “I would never side with the Muslim side to wipe Israel off the face of the world. Ninety percent of Kosovo feels this way.” Though that number sounds high, I didn’t meet anyone who said he felt otherwise. And Shachar Caspi, a Jewish Israeli restaurateur who moved from Tel Aviv to Kosovo, agreed. “Nobody has given me any problems or been against Israel,” he said. “Nobody here is radical. On the contrary, people are very warm, they are very nice, they have taken Islam to a beautiful place, not to a violent place. When they hear I am Israeli, they react very warmly.”
“Nobody cares?” I asked. Considering the vicious anti-Semitism that infects so much of the Muslim world, it was hard to believe. “On the contrary, people like it,” he said. “They come to speak to us. They want to be in contact. They tell me that in the Holocaust, they used to keep the survivors inside of shelters. And vice versa, in 1999 the first plane that landed in Pristina for [humanitarian] support was an Israeli plane.”
Few outside Albania and Kosovo know about the area’s heroism during the Holocaust, but the ethnic Albanians I met brought it up several times. “We sympathize a lot with the people who have suffered the same fate as us,” Berisha says. “We were Muslims even in the Second World War, stronger Muslims than now, but even then we protected [the Jews] with our lives.” And Hamiti says, “Albanians everywhere are aware that Jews want to help them in this conflict. And Jews are aware and thankful to Albanians for saving their lives during the Second World War.”
After concluding my Kosovo trip, I attended a conference in Tirana, Albania, called “Albania, the Albanians, and the Holocaust.” Among those in attendance were Albania’s prime minister and president. Dan Michman, chief historian at Jerusalem’s Holocaust museum, Yad Vashem, was one of the speakers. “Is it really true that Jews had a 100 percent survival rate here during the Nazi occupation?” I asked him.
“Yes,” he said. “Actually, if you look inside the borders of ‘Little Albania’—excluding Kosovo and the Albanian regions of Montenegro and Macedonia—there were three times as many Jews living here at the end of the Holocaust as there were before the war started.” Albanians, Christian and Muslim alike, refused to surrender Jews to the Nazi authorities, and Jews were safer among Albanians than they were anywhere else in Nazi-controlled Europe.
At the conference, Albanian prime minister Sali Berisha delivered a thundering condemnation of Islamist radicals that you’d be unlikely to hear from a head of state anywhere else in Europe. “Israel will accept an independent Palestinian state,” he said. “But Israel cannot accept the fundamentalists amongst Palestinians because their ideology is identical to that of the Nazis.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Israel
Actually, I’m not nearly so confident about the next Iranian government being all that friendly with Israel, at least not to the levels of the Shah era.
I have to wonder if there aren’t some Israeli politicians who aren’t regretting making those arms deals with Turkey. And I have to wonder, how does the Turkish government explain to their own people those arms deals in context to their current stance on Israel?
I’m intrigued as well Mr. Totten. Whom might those allies be? Diplomatic relations with some no doubt, but allies?
PRAY
TELL,
R
Michael,
Kurds, Kazakhs and being pro-Israel:
Since we’re talking today about the power of the Turkish press, how do these far removed populations get their information about what Israel is all about?
And here are some excerpts from Amir Taheri’s book The Persian Night: Iran under the Khomeinist Revolution.
—
Despite the presentation of the Jew by the Khomeinist regime as the ultimate “other” and object of hatred, anti-Semitism has failed to find a wide audience in Iran. Leaving aside what one might call “vulgar anti-Semitism,” there is no evidence that hatred of the Jews has any echoes in contemporary Persian literature or art. Part of this is because the overwhelming majority of Iranian writers, poets, and other “producers of culture” reject Khomeinism as a form of anti-Iranian fascism. The main reason, however, is that the average Iranian, though he may sympathize with the Palestinians, cannot identify with the Arabs, whom he regards as an ancestral foe. The fact that the only major war that Iran has fought in the past three hundred years was started by an Arab nation – Iraq under Saddam Hussein – makes it hard for most Iranians to contemplate an Irano-Arab front against Israel.
So, why has the Khomeinist regime tried to present itself as an advocate of the most radical anti-Israel, not to say anti-Jewish, strategy? The answer lies in the regional and even global ambitions of a regime in search of hegemony and empire. If Iran were to use Iranian culture and the Persian language as vehicles for projecting those ambitions, the regime would have to tone down its Islamic pretensions, thus losing its principle claim to legitimacy.
The only theme that the Khomeinist regime might use to find an audience among the Arabs is one that has resonated with at least some of them since the 1950s: hatred of Israel. Israel has all the qualifications to become the scapegoat for the Arab audience that Ahmadinejad seeks. To start with, Israel is Jewish and thus presumed heir to the “Jews who made Muhammad suffer in Medina.” Israel is also the “outsider” because millions of its citizens, though perhaps no longer a majority, have Western backgrounds. Being a democracy also makes Israel the exact opposite of the despotic Khomeinist system. Having adopted a capitalist market economy, Israel is perceived as a challenge to the Islamo-fascistic populism that Khomeinists present as their political ideology. In any case, Israel must be doomed because it has already had a woman as prime minister, and, as Muhammad is supposed to have said, a nation ruled by a woman is bound to perish.
[…]
The Khomeinist regime hopes to achieve a number of objectives by adopting the destruction of Israel as its cause. It will attract the attention of the Arab intelligentsia, a good part of which has built its utopian vision of the world around deep hatred of Israel. Hatred of Israel also provides a bond between the Islamic Republic and the broader Arab masses who are suspicious of Iran’s Shiism. The same is true of the remnants of the left in the Middle East, to whom an anti-Israel stance is part of a broader anti-imperialist strategy that Khomeinism, too, claims to espouse.
[…]
Ahmadinejad’s message to the Arabs is simple: Forget that Iran is Shiite, and remember that today it is the only power capable of realizing your most cherished dream, the destruction of Israel. The Sunni Muslim Brotherhood promised you it would throw the Jews into the sea in 1948, but failed. Pan-Arab nationalists, led by Nasser, ushered you into one of your biggest defeats in history, enabling Israel to capture Jerusalem. The Baathists under Saddam Hussein promised to “burn Israel,” but ended up bringing the American infidels to Baghdad. Yasser Arafat and the Palestinian “patriots” promised to crush the Jewish state, but turned into collaborators on its payroll. Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda never gave two hoots about Palestine, focusing only on spectacular operations in the West to win publicity for themselves. Sheikh Ahmad Yassin and Hamas did all they could to destroy Israel but lacked the power, like flies attacking an elephant. The only force now willing and able to help realize your dream of a burned Israel and drowning the Jews is the Islamic Republic as created by Khomeini.
[…]
It is not easy to present Israel as a threat to Iran, let alone a Muslim world of 1.3 billion people. There is no history of enmity between Iranians and Jews. On the contrary, most historical narratives on both sides radiate with genuine warmth and affection. Ancient Persians helped save the Jews from extermination in Babylon. Jews always remained loyal to Iran, fighting and dying for it whenever given an opportunity. Even when Israel was reborn as a state, few Iranian Jews were prepared to choose it over Iran. Iran and Israel do not face any of the problems that set one nation-state against another. There is no border dispute between them. They are not competing over access to rare natural resources or markets. They do not suffer from a collective memory of hatred and war. Any Western visitor to Iran would quickly realize that Iranians do not hate Jews and would not be prepared to sacrifice them for the Arabs. This lack of a popular base for a policy of hatred and war may well prove to be the ultimate check on Ahmadinejad’s messianic illusions.
Before Ahmadinejad wiped Israel off the map, moreover, he would have to deal with the third “other” in the Khomeinist demonology: the American Great Satan, which, although weakened by its internal squabbles and surrounded by squeamish allies, remains the world’s sole superpower. Between Ahmadinejad and the light of day stands the shadow of a heavily armed foe that has all but encircled the Islamic Republic, and, its tergiversations notwithstanding, remains capable of doing quite a bit of mischief.
Paul: Since we’re talking today about the power of the Turkish press, how do these far removed populations get their information about what Israel is all about?
From their own media and governments, like everyone else.
Anyway, the Kurds of Iraq have suffered more from Arab Nationalism than anyone else, far more than Israelis have, and they don’t need anyone to tell them how they’re supposed to feel about it.
Now that’s some timely service right there. You didn’t used to be a waiter, did you?
===
Ok, Kazakhstan, Kosovo/Albania…
Do the Kurds count as an independent nation yet? (if anybody should…)
I still think the word “allies” is a bit strong. It’s not like the Kazak Army is going to ride to Israel’s rescue anytime soon.
Thought you might be heading toward a closet stealth arrangement with some of the Gulf States regarding a mutual problem.
RATS,
R
#7/8 Michael Totten.
Kurdistan is unfortunately not an independant country. I know virtually nothing about Albania except it used to be Illyria which I guess shows how out-of-date my knowledge of Albania is, but I haven’t read anything about current Israeli/Albanian cooperation. The Azeri connexion is the subject of a current PJ article & I thnk you’re right, not exactly an ally but not hostile. I knew a girl in my ulpan (Hebrew) class from Azerbaijan, she said there was little anti-Semitism there, I found it interesting that she was Russian-speaking although she looked quite ”Mid-Eastern” ……
The situation re: Berbers, at least in Morocco, is complicated. In recent times, yes, generally, Berbers are less likely to be anti-Semites. In the past (before the French), Jews in Berber areas were treated pretty badly although Berbers & Jews would always ally against the Arabs. My own thinking is that the Berbers who are Berber nationalists would take any anti-Arab position, also, many Berbers in France have close relations with Moroccan & Algerian Jews who also immigrated to France.
But, of course, Berbers also do not constitute an independant state.
I think the exceptions prove the rule, Islam is very anti-Semitic, it’s built-in to the religion, & there just is no way to get around it.
As for the various Middle-Eastern Christians, they were anti-Semitic in the past, they’re anti-Semites now. I think we discussed this briefly – that these Christians use being anti-Israel to prove their ”Arab” credentials.
I will mention one point, from my own experience. On a day-to-day basis, Jews & Arabs in Morocco generally got along, not necessarily friendly or social, but we got along. The incitement, the hatred, came directly from the mosque. Directly.
After some sermons, you could feel it, the open hostility, the nasty remarks. It’s the Party Line.
You can’t make sense of the Middle East if you think of it in terms of Muslims versus non-Muslims. The Muslims are divided along ethnic, national, and sectarian lines, and they’ve been fighting along those lines for more than a thousand years. They’re perfectly willing and even eager to make alliances with non-Muslims to fight against other Muslims.
In places like Lebanon and Iraq, few think of themselves as Muslims. They think of themselves, rather, as Sunnis and Shias, and as Arabs and Kurds. These are the divisions that matter.
Render: You didn’t used to be a waiter, did you?
In college, yes I was.
#15 – “…the only major war in three hundred years…”
Gah. WW2 was pretty major, wasn’t it?
OPERATION
COUNTENANCE,
R
Terry: Jews in Berber areas were treated pretty badly although Berbers & Jews would always ally against the Arabs.
Yes, that’s how it works.
No one in the region gets along with Arabs. No one. And they all band together against the Arabs. The only exception is Iran under the Khomeinists, but that stage will pass and Iran will revert to the norm. Arabs and Persians loathe each other even today, despite the regime’s use of Arab rhetoric and “resistance” as a way to win hearts and minds.
“From their own media and governments”?
If I were to trust such sources here I’d have a far different impression of things than trusting my own senses along with a little bit of Internet research gives me. Yes, I have access to what they may not, but “consider the source” seems to have never applied more. Then again, I’m terminally, hopelessly skeptical.
Render: Thought you might be heading toward a closet stealth arrangement with some of the Gulf States regarding a mutual problem.
I wouldn’t call that an alliance, though anti-Zionism in the Gulf ain’t what it used to be.
Aside from Iran, these days it’s mostly a feature of the Levant.
Michael, if I were to trust media and government, in this relatively open society we both live in, I’d have quite a different view of things than trusting my senses and a little bit of Internet research provide me. And short of first hand experience my senses could tell me nothing about the lives of far flung cultures, regardless of what types of similar experiences we may have had. So I’m just left wondering how Kurds or Kazakhs arrive at any accurate impression of Israel.
#22 Michael Totten.
Yes, that’s how it works. You don’t have to tell me, I had a lot of Persian & Turkish friends in college, they couldn’t stand the Arabs. How funny is it that this Moroccan Jew (half, anyway) defended Arabs to non-Arab Muslim friends? Yet, I have to say that I had NO Arab friends in college, they were VERY unfriendly. I found it shocking since I always had Arab friends back home, although most of my friends were Berber, especially in Marrakech.
I agree with you that the important conflicts in the region are Sunni/Shi’a or ethnic, such as Kurds vs. Arabs, etc. – but, they still use anti-Semitism & can cooperate against Israel. I’m used to shifting alliances among Arabs, nothing is ever permanent, betrayal & treachery are normal, so is copperating with an enemy against another enemy, then switching sides again for another advantage.
I’d be cautious about accepting the idea that pre-Khomenei Iran was a good place for Jews, that’s not accurate, Shi’a Islam believes that Jews are unclean or impure & there was much persecution & forced conversions in Iran.
Similarly, quoting Olmert is not too credible. The gov’t. of Kazakhstan is a rather nasty dictatorship, I have no idea what the population believes.
ah-ha. I think I see the problem. I’m thinking in terms of a military alliance. The definition is quite different.
===
“Aside from Iran, these days it’s mostly a feature of the Levant.”
And certain US college campuses as well as probably half if not more of the politics related sections of the web…
===
There is a location that is an exception (regarding #22), of sorts, although it isn’t really a location. It’s called The Base. They still don’t along all that well with the Arabs within The Base, but they do get along well enough set much of the world on fire over the last twelve years.
…and with that I need some sleep…
CLICK
CLICK,
R
“I wouldn’t call that an alliance, though anti-Zionism in the Gulf ain’t what it used to be.”
Doesn’t El-Jazeera originate from one of those Gulf states?
It weilds less influence there, perhaps?
Mark C.
I just saw your comment at the end of Mr Totten’s interview with Mr Spyer.
One thing struck me as very much the opposite of reality.
You said that there were many who had made a profession out of being nay-sayers to change in the Mid-East, particularly re: Israel/Palestine.
In reality, it is far more accurate to say that the whole ”peace process” has engendered a Peace Industry, comprising numerous journalists, NGO’s, academic experts, & a whole host of political parasites like Martin Indyk, Dennis Ross, etc. etc. as well as numerous Israelis like Beilin & Co. – all of whom make a very nice living promoting false hope, failed ideas, & suicidal strategies.
There is very little evidence that much has changed on the Arab side, much is made of insignificant items, such as some security cooperation, while contrary evidence is generally ignored in the media. The IDF plays politics just like every other institution in Israel. The PA has it’s own motives for their limited cooperation, none of these motives having to do with their sudden change of heart to peace.
Thanks Michael for the excellent article and subsequent discussion. Now here is something we don’t see in the Turkish Press: http://www.alternet.org/story/147998/why_israel%2C_palestine_and_jordan_are_rallying_around_a_single_cause?page=entire
nor do you see much of this either: http://www.historyoftruth.com/news/latest/7846-no-reason-for-turkey-to-open-armenian-border
or this: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3944963,00.html Iran says Turkey committed genocide against the Armenians….
Terry –
Your cynical rant against the “peace industry” is nothing more. You may disagree with them, but they are not whores and parasites as you suggest. You only prove my point that facts which interfere with one’s well-cultivated point of view are generally met with anger and invective and little else. YOu say the facts I cite are insignificant. I say that they are not. Time will tell.
As to allies, isn’t it rather churlish to ignore Egypt and Jordan, with whom we have peace treaties, and who are on the same side of the fight that we are: http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/egypt-police-seize-missiles-ammunition-bound-for-gaza-1.310677 ?
Note that they are allies, not friends. Their journalists hate us and their cultural institutions boycott us, but that doesn’t stop them from being allies where it counts. The fact that they are acting entirely out of self-interest also doesn’t preclude calling them allies. The kurds and the kazakhs may love us, but I don’t see them doing much.
@ Michael Totten
“Describing the conflict as having nothing to do with Arabs yet involving the entire Muslim umma is just flat-out wrong.
It’s called the Arab-Israeli conflict for a reason.”
Mr Totten,
I would not not advise you to travel to Bangla Desh, Pakistan,Malaysia and Indonesia with an Israeli passport
Firstly, You would not be allowed to enter these countries
Secondly, using another passport for entry and telling locals about your real origin would expose you to an unpleasant fate
The same fate might await you in Nothern Nigerian states !
You refuse to understand that the real seeds of Muslim hatred toward Jews lie in the Medina surats,it is too bad for all us.
There are two sides to every story.
The blockade is not limited just to military or “dual-use” materials. It includes a substantial list of purely consumer goods having no military use whatsoever.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goods_allowed/banned_for_import_into_Gaza
Perhaps someone can explain to me how chocolate, clothing, or musical instruments can be used to make bombs or rockets. It seems to me that the purpose of the blockade is not for national security, but to wage economic warfare and to impose collective punishment on the Gazan residents for voting for Hamas in their election. The following story is about the Israeli government admitting as such.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/06/09/95621/israeli-document-gaza-blockade.html
As I say, there are two sides to every story and this blog is presenting only one side of the story.
Trumpledor: I would not not advise you to travel to Bangla Desh, Pakistan,Malaysia and Indonesia with an Israeli passport
I wouldn’t advise you to travel to Kurdistan with an Arab passport, but you will be warmly welcomed with an Israeli passport. That’s just a fact, and I’m not going to pretend that it isn’t.
Trumpledor: I would not not advise you to travel to Bangla Desh, Pakistan,Malaysia and Indonesia with an Israeli passport
I wouldn’t advise you to travel to Kurdistan with an Arab passport, but you will be warmly welcomed with an Israeli passport. That’s just a fact, and I’m not going to pretend that it isn’t.
We agree but you try to bypass the Jewish- Israel/Muslim issue which is the core of the conflict .
I would not say current conflict because this one dates back to the 7 th century,in 622.
Lindsey, the whole point you’re trying to make is: collective punishment is immoral. Why? Do you really think America would be sending chocolate and musician instruments to Japan in 1943? Did the Gazan population vote in Hamas? Basic necessities were always allowed (no embargo before Hamas came to power), but the idea of a vibrant economy that supports the activities of their elected government is a bit insane. You seem to dismiss this.
The Left in America also rails against collective guilt of Muslims. Collective responsibility is the issue side stepped in such intentional framing. When a group does not impose local punishment on behavior that threatens the larger group, then the larger group exerts pressure to persuade the smaller group to impose the rules of cooperation. This is a basic anthropological fact. The promoter of Ground Zero claims Allies murdered 500,000 Iraqi children in a collective guilt trip. Not only was this a false story, but sanctions have consequences. In the case of Cordoba House, it is the less than sincere effort to take collective responsibility of the hijacked message of Islam, that creates collective responsibility. The alternatives such as Afghanistan and Iraq, where we tried to punished the offenders resulted in a large blow back by the Muslim community. Likewise the Israeli effort to terminate Hamas created more resistance among the population. And the issue of creating more collective responsibility can involve many approaches. Still, the suffering of Gazans is not THE most important item. It is always what suffering and reward can do to progress.
The conclusion from your logic would be no sanctions, no collective punishment, no collective responsibility, no peace and a whole lot of dead people.
Please explain and use perhaps the US and Mexico or Canada as your hypothetical. Seems a whole lot of collective guilt is placed on Arizona. If New York by popular vote decided to place NYPD under Hamas control, my State would be embargoed. No soup for me!
Here in America we are seeing the frustrations of many Americans. Not only are we told that collective responsibility is anti-Constitutional, we can’t even prosecute the mastermind of the USS Cole bombing. I suggest that the Left’s logic is drawing bad reviews from the Political Center. Obama won’t even decide where the 9/11 mastermind will stand trial. Don’t kid yourself, they are both connected.
On another note: Bengla Desh recently banned Islamic dress codes. They have tried to move against radical Islam. Their continued antisemitism seems to be another issue. We all know that neither Iran or Turkey harbors such hatred at a cultural level. Since neither are Arab nations, their government’s actions reveal more about the lunacy of leadership than the street attitudes. Therefore, Michael is quite correct in his replies regarding this issue. 1.4 Muslims are not all hateful, antisemitic or even driven by the whims of clerics. To forget this is a huge tactical mistake as well as a mortal strategic one.
Re: collective responsibility and the lunacy of leadership
American voters, who hire their “public servants,” have no excuse; the Syrian at street level I cut some slack.
Yes Paul, I agree. I don’t think the Iranian people at this point have collective guilt on their heads and I bet many would like to see whatever done to remove their leadership. Who thought the Kurds were responsible for Saddam? Lebanon is a tough case too. Hell, can’t say I like the idea of collective Turkish responsibility and we know their war record………
That’s why collective responsibility is case sensitive.
I note the role of negative emotions when punishment is not deployed. Free Rider here can mean those countries enjoying global trade and freedoms without the appropriate enforcement of the rules of larger group rules of behavior:
http://129.3.20.41/eps/mic/papers/0305/0305006.pdf
as for cross cultural cooperation, this might be interesting: http://www.cod.edu/people/faculty/bolyanat/Altpunishment-Proc2008%5B1%5D.pdf
“Because third-party punishment is a powerful way to
promote cooperation, we may think it would always be a
good thing to promote. However, consider that among the
Taliban, those who punish a woman when she is not
covering her head are third-party punishers of norm
violators; presumably the woman’s husband, father and
brothers are the wronged second parties. These sorts of
impositions on individual liberty are unimaginable in
some small-scale societies where few norms are enforced
by third parties. Individual liberty can coexist with a good deal of cooperation in such small-scale, ‘egalitarian’ human societies. We stress ‘human’ societies because small-scale, non-egalitarian chimpanzee societies are so different (Pan troglodytes, Jensen et al. 2007).” from the last link above…
third-party punishment
Maybe Ali and others will add insights about the role of appropriate punishers.
I know this one is WAY out there, but is there any realistic, Islamically-sound theological argument in support of the existence of a Jewish state in Israel? The only Sheikh I’ve heard of that advocates this is the Italian Sheikh Palazzi:
Palazzi accepts Israel’s sovereignty over the Holy Land, and says the Koran supports it as the will of God as a necessary prerequisite for the Final Judgment. He accepts Israel’s sovereignty over Jerusalem, if the rights of other religions are protected. He quotes the Koran to support Judaism’s special connection to the Temple Mount. According to Palazzi, “The most authoritative Islamic sources affirm the Temples,”. He adds that Jerusalem is sacred to Muslims because of its prior holiness to Jews and its standing as home to the biblical prophets and kings David and Solomon, all of whom he says are sacred figures also in Islam. He claims that the Koran “expressly recognizes that Jerusalem plays the same role for Jews that Mecca has for Muslims”.[8]
When asked whether he see himself as a “Muslim Zionist”, he replied: “If one means a Muslim who supports the right of the Jewish people to have their own independent and sovereign State, who is solidly behind the State of Israel when it is attacked by terror and when its existence in menaced, who thinks that developing friendly relations between the Muslim nations and the State of Israel is in the interest of the Muslims and of human civilization in general, then I think that the label of Muslim Zionist is appropriate.[9]
According to scholar Dina Lisnyansky, Palazzi “created his own niche. Being born into an immigrant family, he combined the democratic rights of western Europe with a love for Islam,” but added his Zionist mission. As a result, “he is a radical too, but not on the radicals’ side. He is fighting everything that political Islam promotes.” She explains, “One of the reasons why he is not on some black list in Iran is the fact that he, unlike Rushdie, has never said a negative word about Islam. To extremist interpreters of the Qur’an he doesn’t say ‘you are wrong.’ He would only say: ‘You got something wrong.’ His mission, therefore, is clearly not about reinventing Islam; it is about correcting the perspective.”[10] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Hadi_Palazzi
Assuming Palazzi’s interpretation is sound, I still don’t believe it will change much, at least not anytime soon; but getting this sort of debate started in the Umma would be a good thing.
Even assuming the majority of the Umma accept such a view, the dispute with the Arabs would likely continue because there are issues involved other than religion alone, even if religion seems to drive it the most for at this moment in history.
S-5000, it is beyond my powers of analysis to explain why Congress hasn’t passed a resolution demanding that the majority of the Umma declare the right for a Jewish State of Israel to exist and that infidels are equal under the greater laws of international justice. P Lang would argue that because there is no central Umma board of directors, no such vote can take place. Then each Muslim nation requires leading clerics to issue a yes or no. The most basic question can be answered. I find it rather sad that for a religion preaching a Sharia world, it hides behind claims of decentralization and diversity.
One would think that the Great Misunderstanding should be cleared up ASAP. Even more ironic is the idea that accepting these conditions and accepting the reasonable is a violation of freedom of religious expression. Getting Russia and China to interject their self-interest in having this misunderstanding by demanding this reformation or modification of Islamic doctrine shows that for now, competition with the West trumps critical cooperation……
As Michael said, there is the underlying problems of cultural and ethnic competition. I would argue that is more amenable to peace efforts than reforming Islam.
http://www.memri.org/clip_transcript/en/2590.htm
And S-5000, if we’re so screwed up here, what right do we have expecting clerics abroad to be more rational than p[professors here at our universities?
On the other hand, is this really religious expression or hate speech? That this person is certified by some religious hierarchy is something our administration and Europe should be asking our “allies”.
When Valley of the Wolves is highly rated in Turkey, does that make Turks collectively responsible for the behavior conditioning that promotes further hatred? The Press should ask that of Erdogan EVERY time he comes before the mic.
Genes
Trump
Words
http://www.memri.org/clip_transcript/en/2587.htm
The transcript of the Egyptian cleric I left out above….
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Zionism
In my view, scripture has nothing to do with Israel. I only support Israel because I think it is the right thing to do and I base my support on secular, democratic, and liberal values. It is possible that Palazzi is right.
Paul, isn’t the government the only appropriate punisher?
“Paul, isn’t the government the only appropriate punisher?”
Interesting, Ali; I guess I expected to learn about familial power, a secondary subset of which are external, public authority figures.
Ali, I hear ya, but I brought up the point simply because for right or for wrong, most people in the Islamic world still take their marching orders based off of what they are told their faith says.
Not much point in Israel allowing musical instruments into Gaza since Hamas bans them anyway.
Gary,
I wonder what the punishment might be for a spontaneous whistle or hum. Sneak some kazoos or harmonicas in and watch what happens.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvEDj7MweBs
“There is no fun in Islam.”
-A. Khomeini
THE SOUND
OF THE GUN,
R
By government, I meant generally agreed upon authority figures.
That Hamas video was hard to watch; I’m glad the camera wasn’t closer. Profoundly sad.
So what happens when Hosni Mubarak dies (coming soon to a theater near you)? The list of his potential replacements is far from promising, for Israel.
===
A quick note – Egyptian M-1A1E and M-1A2 SEP Abrams do not have the DU insert armor or the Silver Bullet DU ammo. I’m not sure if they have any armor inserts at all and their main APDS round is a tungsten core.
===
Sorry Paul – There is much much worse out there video-wise regarding HAMAS.
MUCH
MORE,
R
No apology needed, Render; it was less what I saw than what I know it represents.
Kids and their future…can’t get that thought out of my mind.
A video supplement to the Holocaust denial site:
“Compilation footage of Nazi concentration camps in the immediate aftermath of World War II. The footage was gathered by the US Department of Defense as part of the effort to conduct war crimes trials”
http://tinyurl.com/2fww3oa
#56 Render.
What happens when Mubarak dies? Best case scenario, his son succeeds him & manages to keep the support of the military & the same stagnant, rotten system creaks on for a few more years. If the son is smart, by a combination of ruthlessness & bribery, he might succeed. But, even in this best case scenario, he will be more ”Islamic” even as he represses the Muslim Brotherhood. If Iran goes nuclear, Egypt will do what all the other Arab states will do – play a two-faced game, appease Teheran while trying to undermine Iranian goals combined with a military build-up, including possible nuclear programs of their own.
That’s the best case. All down-hill from there.
I’ve heard reports of Omar Suleiman, intelligence chief, succeeding Mubarak. He seems friendlier to Israel, but I could be (and am probably) wrong. I don’t see any chance of anyone outside the “establishment” coming to power in Egypt.
Terry, what do you think of the Islamic community center near Ground Zero? I think it is incredibly stupid. I think Rauf isn’t actually a moderate. However, I don’t see any legal way to stop it from being built. Rauf says the exact same things that most leftists say and I doubt that there would be this much controversy, if leftists tried to build a [insert place where leftists hang out here] center. I think most politicians are exploiting this for political points and the only one who dealt with it sort of responsibly was Gov. Paterson.
Ali,
If you compare response from the Left about the mosque to reaction following the shootings at Fort Hood, Texas a pattern is apparent.
Speaking of Turkey…
I get the impression that Rauf is little more then an opportunist with an opportunity. A borderline cult leader lucked on to a profitable game. He’s reveling in the attention, seeing dollar signs. He thinks he controls all those young thugs outside of his condemned furniture store building.
In theory he’s supposed to know better. He’s supposed to know the evil power of the game he’s playing with. But its obviously too late, it owns him now, soul and life. He’s almost to the end of the razor blade.
I suppose that makes me a racist now…
Let me know when we can open up a synagogue in Mecca. Let me know when we can have Medina back…
===
Our left went around the bend on 9/11 and never really came back. Over the days and weeks that followed we all learned the vast difference between loyal opposition and disloyal.
That disloyal opposition, an all too vocal minority, openly joined with the far right (Stormfront joining Al Sharpton in Cindy Sheehans ditch being one of the more obvious examples).
We’re still learning…
===
Gott help me I can’t get this music out of my head!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOFVhXpBNdE&feature=related
WHAT’S
SHE
SAYING?!?,
R
#60 Ali.
I don’t think Suleiman has much chance. No Egyptian political figure can be seen as ”friendly” to Israel. Behind the scenes, some might be more pragmatic than others. It’s my belief that our peace treaty with Egypt was a mistake. It had it’s advantages, to be sure, but over the long-term, it probably won’t last.
I have my own idea of what we should have done. I think we should have created a Bedouin state in the Sinai, semi-independant, as a buffer zone with an Israeli military presence. We could have encouraged our own Bedouin to settle there as well.
With the right policies, we could have reduced the influence of Islam among the Bedouin while allowing a slow development based on their own traditions.
As to the mosque at Ground Zero, you can’t ask me, I’m against building mosques anywhere, or rather, I should say that if Muslims in a community want to form a mosque, it must meet specific conditions – 1. the financing must be only by the members, no foreign (I mean Saudi) money at all. 2. No Imams with connexions to any international movements or organizations or Muslim Brotherhood front organizations.
3. The mosque must have in their charter a specific mention of separation of religion & state & if there is a conflict, the secular law takes precedence.
I don’t have a doubt in my mind that this Ground Zero Mosque project is being done with ill intentions. I’d agree that politicians on both sides are using this as an issue but that those who oppose the mosque among the general public are expressing a genuine sentiment. No legal way to stop it – there’s always a legal way to stop something.
Interesting and useful article on Netanyahu and the upcoming peace talks. Looks like we may be entering the world series here, and many on this site continue to insist that the season hasn’t even begun.
http://www.haaretz.com/magazine/week-s-end/netanyahu-may-be-a-latter-day-gorbachev-1.310509
#64 Mark C.
I don’t think Haaretz has much credibility on this site.
Haaretz only represents the views of a very small, marginalized & discredited minority of far-left extemists & anti-Israel wackos.
#60 Ali:
Just because the courts decide it’s legal, doesn’t mean it will go anywhere. Check out the aftermath of the Kelo decision:
http://ij.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3392&Itemid=165
Long story short: Despite the ruling from SCOTUS, the public pressure on the project has essentially halted all its progress.
#64 Mark C.
There is a far more realistic assessment in the JPost by David Horowitz, hardly a right-winger.
”Editors Notes: Does Abbas Want a Deal?”
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Article.aspx?id=186172
Even more realistic are a whole series of articles by Prof. Barry Rubin, also a very moderate analyst at his site RubinReports.
http://rubinreports.blogspot.com/2010/08/direct-israel-palestinian-talks.html
Terry, Eilat;
Thanks for links. They are definitely “glass half full” articles, but I don’t think that they contradict the article in haaretz. The article in Haaretz focuses on Netanyahu, and his seeming enthusiasm for a deal with the Palestinians, while your articles focus on Abbas.
I can understand Abbas’ reticence – my guess is that his primary fear is that the Israelis are setting him up for failure. Either he will have to accept the unacceptable (some variation of Netanyahu’s “economic peace” that leaves the settlements largely in place)or appear to the world as the one who rejected peace. That’s why he wants all these preconditions. His desire for the continued settlement freeze is also understandable – he would be in an impossible position if in mid-negotiations Israel announced a thousand building starts in some East Jerusalem neighborhood.
The Palestinians also have a lot more to lose from failed negotiations. It would probably be the end of Fatah and the Palestinian Authority, period. I have no idea how the Netanyahu government views such a possibility. For Netanyahu it may be a no lose proposition – either Israel does a deal that it’s prepared to do, or the PA goes to the wall. And a third intifada could be the pretext for a reconquest of the West Bank. The settlers would certainly rejoice. I don’t really believe that the latter is a consideration, but who knows?
Don’t forget that Barak, the author of the Camp David offer, is also an important part of the equation, although he likes to stay in the background. Unless he really has turned into the lazy, fat whore that he appears, I can’t imagine him being party to a sham negotation. He’s the head of Rabin’s labor party, for God’s sake.
As a final note, I think you would improve your own credibility by avoiding such foolish hypberbole as calling Haaretz readership “far left extremists and anti-Israel wackos” (or Dennis Ross a “political parasite”), unless the point is simply to tweak my nose.
PS. Your opinion that the peace treaty with Egypt was a mistake doesn’t exactly put you in the forefront of political thinking, either.
#68 Mark C.
Mark, tell me about the concessions the Palestinian leadership is offering? Or, do concessions only come from Israel?
For example, on what exactly is the Palestinian claim to Jerusalem based? To 19 yrs. of Jordanian illegal occupation that ended in 1967?
Will Abbas recognize Israel as the state of the Jewish people & an agreement is an end to all claims & excuses for conflict?
What is the signature of Abbas really worth?
Why are you worried that the settlements remain in place? So, you thinks it’s OK to establish a Judenrein Palestine but at the same time, we get to keep over a million Arabs as citizens.
Won’t Netanyahu be in a difficult political position if he continues the freeze on construction? Why is only Abbas’ position important to you?
Just out of curiosity, you do remember Rabin’s position on many issues?
And what about Hamas? What is our recourse should Hamas seize power? I mean, after all, our little experiment in Gaza really didn’t work out very well.
Please don’t ask me about Ehud Barak, my opinion of him is not printable in a public forum.
Do you really think Haaretz represents the opinion of the vast majority of Israelis?
In your opinion, generally, what percentage of Israelis agree with the editorial position of Haaretz? You may not have noticed, how I don’t know, but the Left in Israel has become a very small minority, electorally insignificant. And, judging by the comments in the English version, a large proportion of their readers are foreign anti-Semites & Israel-bashers.
#69 Mark C.
What will our peace treaty with Egypt be worth when Mubarak dies, his son fails as the next Raîs, and an Islamic regime takes power?
What will we do if an Islamic regime in Egypt repudiates the treaty & moves troops into the Sinai?
Why does Egypt, with all it’s many economic problems, poverty, illiteracy, spend so much on up-grading their military? And just who exactly is the focus of their military training? I’ll give you a hint, it’s not Libya.
#68 Mark C.
Regarding Haaretz – in Israel it _is_ perceived as ultra-left-wing; on local political map it is somewhere between Meretz and Anarchists Against The Wall (closer to the latter). Basically, its readership consists mainly of infamous “Tel Aviv bubble” left-wing intelligentsia.
If Egypt ‘went rogue’ and broke off the peace deal I’d still argue that overall the peace deal between Israel and Egypt was worth it. There’s a zillion reasons why so I won’t list them.
But let’s say the unthinkable happens and Egypt rips apart the peace treaty. From a military standpoint the Egyptian military has to transverse the Sinai to reach Israel. Israel would literally see them massing and coming from hundreds of miles away and make mince meat of them if they dared cross into Sinai.
I don’t know what type of government will take over in Egypt, and how powerful it will be. My main worry is there’s a generation of Egyptians that don’t remember how devastating and costly the ongoing conflicts with Israel were from the late 40s until the 70s … and that they may be ready to repeat mistakes.
#73 Semite5000.
I don’t think there are a zillion reasons. There was only one reason – by removing Egypt from the Arab equation, no other group of countries could declare open war with us. I’m not saying this was not a good result. I’m saying we could have had the same result without the treaty by smashing the hell out of Egypt, they would not have been receiving all the US aid, & we could have kept them weak even if it meant a few small wars along the way.
The problem with the Sinai is not that all of a sudden, Egypt will mass troops & send their army across the sinai in plain sight.
It is rather that they will move slowly, gradually infiltrating soldiers, creating arms stockpiles, fortifications, missile launchers, over a period of years.
And, every step of the way, it won’t be enough of a provocation to start a war.
Just like S. Lebanon.
And then, one day …………..
Terry:
What will we do if an Islamic regime in Egypt repudiates the treaty & moves troops into the Sinai?
I’m certain the IDF, US, and many other countries will make it clear to the Egyptians that if they move into Sinai, Israel’s gloves come off. Apart from the usual international buffoons, what country will rush to support Egypt?
But forget other countries, Israel will not allow the Egyptians to pour into Sinai; they just won’t. And while Egypt’s military is formidable, it’s no match for the IDF, and would seem to me to be at a distinct strategic disadvantage to boot. They’d have to mass their armies (easily spotted by spy satellites, aircraft and other intelligence mechanisms) on the border with Sinai. In some cases crossing the border means crossing the Suez Canal, not an easy thing to do quickly. If the IAF doesn’t pulverize them, Israel’s infantry and armor will do the job. Israel is intimately familiar with Sinai and far more comfortable operating there than Egypt. The average Egyptian soldier is not a desert dweller; he’s from the Nile Valley or the city; the Sinai is not home.
If Egypt is stupid enough to rip up the peace treaty, sever its ties to the West, and then try to take on Israel the result will be that after the dust settles you’ll be able to drive to Dahab from Eilat without stopping at any border station.
These are all bit “IF’s” regarding the future of Egypt; we don’t know enough yet. Likely, though, an Islamist Egypt wouldn’t just be Israel’s problem, it would be a lot of other countries’ problems, too.
#75 Semite5000.
No one will make anything ”clear” to the Islamic Republic of Egypt. What countries – the US, the EU, maybe the UN? Ha, ha – you must be kidding.
Who will support Egypt? The entire Islamic world, for sure the entire Arab League at least. And Syria, Lebanon, who knows about the future gov’t. of Iraq, they might join in, even Jordan if the little King is gone by then. This is assuming that we haven’t gone to war with Iran – but if Iran is a nuclear power, they will see this as their perfect opportunity.
Sure, I’m guessing, speculating. But being a paranoid in the Middle-East is a sign of mental health.
And, please, don’t tell me what Israel won’t allow. We allowed Syria to arm Hezbollah, we let Hamas shoot missiles at Sderot for 8 years. We seem to be allowing Iran to go nuclear.
I’m not saying we wouldn’t win. I’m saying that when the Arabs believe that they have the upper hand, they’ll attack. They’re done it before, no reason to think they won’t try again.
Mark, you’re assuming that Abbas wants peace. He doesn’t. Abbas wants those preconditions because he will cause the talks to fail and then 1) Israel will have to fulfill these preconditions, anyway. 2) Israel will refuse and world opinion will condemn Israel as the evil, apartheid-istic, Nakba-causing obstacle to peace. 3) #2 and a third intifada.
I have a relative who served in the Egyptian army. He says that their training is presented as preparations for the future war with Israel.
I’m assuming Israel is the country that will make it “clear” to Egypt.
“I have a relative who served in the Egyptian army. He says that their training is presented as preparations for the future war with Israel.”
That is very chilling, Ali. Terry and semite5000 had a very interesting exchange but that supports Terry’s downbeat assessment of the situation.
Haaretz is a center-left newspaper, it is balanced and responsible, it is not “anarchists against the wall” or something idiotic like that. I’d love to know where some of these posts are coming from – probably from the other side of the greenline.
And what is all this about the Tel Aviv “bubble”? Tel Aviv and the Sharon region contain most of the country’s population. The rest of you are bubbles.
Keep up those zero-gravity geopolitics, Terry. Smashing the hell out of Egypt? Turning the Sinai into a new country? This just isn’t serious.
I cannot answer your long list of questions, some of which are valid, others merely provocative. The short answer is that Israel is the big winner in this game and so yes, Israel will be making most of the material concessions. It is up to Israel to leave the Palestinians with the rump end of a territory that they can call a country. Remove settlements whose inhabitants would never recognize any form of Palestinian sovereignty and, unlike the Israeli Arabs, have a short and disputed tenure on the land and live in a permanent state of antagonism with the Arab residents. Give them a few neighborhoods in East Jerusalem for a capital that anyway contain only Arabs and have for time immemorial.
What do the Palestinians have to give? To recognize Israel as a Jewish country, demilitarize and agree to necessary security arrangements, give up right to return to Israel (an absurd demand)and other acts which are largely symbolic.
I’m all for it. There are security risks for Israel, but not mortal ones, Israel could reconquer the west bank in a day. If it succeeds, the benefits for Israel are incalculable. And compared to some of your suggestions, it is all quite do-able, to the extent that ideology doesn’t get in the way. Removing the settlements will be a very costly and difficult process, but that’s what the Americans and the Europeans are there for . I have a feeling that Obama will be doing a lot of sweetening the pot for both sides to get this deal done.
As for the question about Egypt, I think Mubarak answered it best. During operation defensive shield, when some young Egyptians were asking why the Egyptian army wasn’t marching to the Palestinians’ defense, Mubarak responded: “You want me to attack Israel? Great, somebody give me two hundred billion dollars and I’ll attack Israel.”
Wars cost money. Egypt ain’t got none, except what the U.S. gives it.
#80
Unfortunately, Terry is usually right. I think we all wish he wasn’t, but we can’t really wish things into existence.
#75
Semite, you are discounting the very real possibility that martyrdom itself is a “goal” for many Egyptians, especially followers of the potential Muslim Brotherhood/Islamist regime.
2009
http://www.haaretz.com/news/egyptian-army-conducts-series-of-war-games-on-sinai-peninsula-1.270380
2010
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?179972-Egyptian-Army-Exercises-in-Sinai-May-2010
They are not practicing for the Libyans…
INGREDIENTS,
R
Actually, I thought it was common knowledge that most of the Egyptian military’s training basically assumes a belligerent posture vis-a-vis Israel. I know I’ve read about it before but I’m too lazy to dig up sources right now. That said, it doesn’t mean war is inevitable in the future, even if the next regime/s decide to tear up the peace agreement with Israel.
And were Egypt to do that, it would be shooting itself in the foot. Egypt doesn’t have oil, like Iran. Where, then, would Egypt find leverage to use against Israel? The Cold War is over, so what major technologically advanced power will back Egypt in its showdown with Israel and the West that will be alarmed by an lslamist Egypt?
Iran is far from Europe; Egypt is very close. Egypt’s trump card–the Suez Canal–could also be its Achilles heal.
Marc: And what is all this about the Tel Aviv “bubble”? Tel Aviv and the Sharon region contain most of the country’s population. The rest of you are bubbles.
Well said.
#81
I’ve heard many settlers say that they are willing to accept Palestinian citizenship to live in the West Bank.
Ali:
Semite, you are discounting the very real possibility that martyrdom itself is a “goal” for many Egyptians, especially followers of the potential Muslim Brotherhood/Islamist regime
I don’t discount that at all. It actually dovetails with what I wrote earlier, which is my concern that that younger Egyptians don’t remember/fully understand the costs of war with Israel.
Terry and Semite5000,
I can see easily a scenario after Mubarak’s death, that Iran’s influence in Egypt becomes major, just as it will in Iraq in the near future. The danger of Egypt becoming another member of a grand Iranian confederation including Iraq, Lebanon, Syria and possibly Jordan once the monarchy is gone is not too far fetched.
In that situation, the Arabs plus Iran will get that old time feeling of 1967 when they thought Israel was just “easy pickin’s” and try a rematch with Egypt leading the way with Iranian guidance.
This is perhaps a simplification, but Iran is noted for using waves of combatants (including children) as a means of overwhelming the enemy (not Libya).
They just need to convince their soldiers or whoever that death is sweeter than life and a martyr’s death is to be desired more than anything. Shouldn’t be too difficult…
# Mark C
If you are referring to me being some sort of the Hill Youth – you are mistaken. I am moderate center-right and I live in Sharon region (Netanya, to be more exact; and, unfortunately, I can not be described as young). Terry, as you probably noticed, lives in Eilat and not in some God-forsaken settlement in Hebron Hills. If you don’t recognize the expression “Tel Aviv bubble” – well, you have no idea about modern Israel and, more to the point, you are not reading Michael’s blog. You may re-read his interview with Benjamin Kerstein ( though my definition of “Tel Aviv bubble” differs from Benjamin’s).
As for Haaretz being center-left, balanced and responsible – well, don’t repeat this one to any average Israeli if you do not want to be laughed at. Haaretz position (notably excluding its economic supplement TheMarker) is on extreme left side of Israeli political map. Yedioth and Maariv are basically centre-left ( and yellow to the core, but that’s another story). Jerusalem Post, Israel Hayom and Russian-language daily “Vesti” are center-right. Makor Rishon is solidly right.
As for “Give them a few neighborhoods in East Jerusalem for a capital that anyway contain only Arabs and have for time immemorial” – don’t you understand that nobody is interested in Abu Dis or Shuafat? Palestinians can have them yesterday and nobody will be bothered (except for these townships’ inhabitants who do not want to be parted with Israeli Social Security). Do you seriously suppose that Palestinians will be satisfied with “a few neighborhoods” when they want the Holy Basin?
“What do the Palestinians have to give? To recognize Israel as a Jewish country, demilitarize and agree to necessary security arrangements, give up right to return to Israel (an absurd demand)and other acts which are largely symbolic.”
_You_ think that right of return is absurd demand. Palestinians, unfortunately, see it as their major demand for any possible peace settlement.
For what it’s worth, as a curious foreigner, unfamiliar with the Israeli media, I sampled and decided that Haaretz would not get a bookmark, for much the same reason MSNBC doesn’t. Full disclosure: I concluded decades ago that the Left is hopeless, a mindset resistant to maturation. Fortunately, some grow, prodded (“mugged”?) by reality.
Israel: like trying to herd feral cats, it seems from this distance.
“What will we do if an Islamic regime in Egypt repudiates the treaty & moves troops into the Sinai?”
You will give them few (but only few) warnings and if they will not listen you will bomb them to smithereens and will live happily ever after.
On serious note, I do not think they will brake the treaty so blatantly. They are not that stupid. What ARE might do is to start covertly supporting Hamas in their glorious straggle against Zionist occupiers. Which, btw is just slightly less stupid, but consider it a gift for it will be your chance to clean up Gaza, lock the door and throw away the key.
My total time in Turkey is about 10 days all of which was spent in the western 10% of the country, so I don’t have any in depth knowledge of Turkey. From my limited experience I found that the people I met seemed to like Americans and Europeans, they did not seem to like Arabs. With that said do you think that maybe Turkey was blindsided by the flotilla? Maybe to drive a wedge between Israel and Turkey? Again my knowledge is limited but I think the possibility is worth considering.
Once again excellent interview and topic. Thank you Michael
Turkish support for the flotilla of death (and other recent anti-Israel actions/words) is very possibly directly tied to Israeli support of the Kurds.
Israeli relations with the Barzani family go way back, back before Israel even existed.
TENSE,
R
I’m getting the feeling that the Turks sort of want to move on from the Flotilla incident. I haven’t heard much bluster about their earlier ‘demand’ that Israel apologize. Perhaps somebody in the US admin. really did bitch slap the ‘em behind the scenes? A recent Jpost article quoted a Turkish official saying that Greece and Israel’s new-found friendship worries them not, but I suspect it’s sinking in that they overplayed their hand. Maybe they’re afraid that Israel could start playing hardball too, by supporting the Kurds, maybe making inroads with Armenia … who knows. Publically, at least, the Israelis played it very cool.
Now, what did Turkey really gain from all this? A few Gazans naming their kids Erdogan? Turkish flags flying in Gaza? Wow, impressive. Frankly, I think the truth is this hurt Turkey’s image in the eyes of the countries that count, and the Turks know this. I mean they fu*ck&d up so bad, even the BBC’s Panorama program aired a show about the flotilla that was very fair towards Israel!
Another Turk I know told me once, “Everybody hates us.” He didn’t mean it in an immediate way, but rather in a broader historic manner, and he’s got a point. The Ottomans stepped on a lot of toes–to put it lightly–during their expansion and rule. There’s still bad blood and bitter historic memories about the Turks among the Orthodox (mainly Greek) Christian world, among the Armenians, Kurds; and then there seems to be a lingering, generalized fear in the Central and Western European mind about the Mustachioed ‘Mohammadan’ Turk always attempting to invade Europe, enslaving captives, using European women in the Haram, and inserting broken coke bottles into the rectums of enemies, although there was no coca cola back then, so maybe a Raki bottle … but you get the point (oops, a pun!).
THE OTTOMAN
LOOKS GREAT
IN THE SALON
(I love Renderisms … from now on we should all close with one!)
Render: Turkish support for the flotilla of death (and other recent anti-Israel actions/words) is very possibly directly tied to Israeli support of the Kurds.
Israeli relations with the Barzani family go way back, back before Israel even existed.
This is true, and the relations went back before Israel and Turkey got all lovey-dovey during the 90s, so I’m not sure that it explains why Turkey has been giving Israel the cold shoulder in the last few years. It probably has more to do with the AKP and that old thang called Islam, or to be more PC and probably more accurate, Islamism.
ENJOY YOUR
KURDS AND WHEY
Turkey wants Israeli radars: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3943942,00.html
#95 Semite5000.
I think Erdogan’s radicalism is proving to be less popular than he thought. So, he’ll tone it down, a sort of strategic retreat, temporary to be sure. It has less to do with Israel & more to do with secular Turks becoming alarmed at Islamization.
Turkey’s economy isn’t doing so great either. Elections are coming up & looking more moderate sells better.
The Turkish military made a big mistake. Before the election of Erdogan, they should have banned his Islamist party, cooked up a good corruption scandal against Erdogan & some of his friends, & then arranged his assassination by some thug. Unfortunately, they listened to Western idiots about keeping the military out of politics, democracy, blah, blah, blah. Big mistake.
#90
I was once a person who could’ve been potentially described as a leftist. Thankfully I was “mugged” a few years ago.
KURDS AND WHEY,
THATS CLEVER
Or Obama’s lack of support for the Turks and the demand for apology to Armenians. Check back just a little before the Turks killed Armenians, Armenians kill quite a few Turks, just a less efficient job of it.
The “renderisms” were originally inspired by political cartoonist Herb Block (RIP) and the sarcastic little stick figure that hid at the bottom of many of his cartoons.
http://myloc.gov/Exhibitions/EnduringOutrage/MiddleEast/pages/SLObjectList.aspx
The nic “Render” was loosely inspired by the Orson Scott Card masterpiece “Ender’s Game.” (Re-Ender)
http://www.hatrack.com/
I’ve been using both nic and style exclusively on-line since the early 80′s. When the information superhighway was a loose collection of one-way dirt roads dead ending in peoples bedrooms. (I’ve been at this war for a very long time).
I’m flattered (very), but the real compliments belong to the two men above for the inspiration and the education.
ENVIRONMENTAL
PRODUCT,
R
Take a bow anyway, Render.
When I need a chuckle, I check out cartoonist Michael Ramirez’ work at Investor’s Business Daily.
A recent one:
http://tinyurl.com/29wjxua
Think your corner of the world is getting dangerous? On the same page, to the right, check out the statistics in “The Killing Fields of Caracas.”
Ali #82: “we can’t really wish things into existence”
How true. And it applies to many things other than Middle East politics – like life.
Yes Render, but you often add a riddle to your renderings……
Gee, Iranian Press is making great moves….
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/life-style/people/Iran-brands-Carla-prostitute/articleshow/6461240.cms
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11127409
As this remark wouldn’t even make Memri, I don’t know where to begin.
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0810/AntiMuslim_attacker_works_at_proPark51_group.html?showall
Paul, if this is true and that the attack was a false flag by the Left, the lack of following this through in the Press would be unbelievable. Let’s see what happens…..
Michael J. Totten: RE Kurds
I am sure you have answered this question before, so forgive me, but are there several books out
there that would help one gain a better understanding of the Kurds? Thank you.
Max, sadly, as we know, the problem is reliable reporters tracking down accurate sources. But, remember, I was born Mr. Half Empty.
107. Paul S.
Still, how many schools of journalism and their students could let such a political dirty trick of the worst kind if true go unreported? It would almost be like a terrorist attack Republicans set up to make Obama look bad. In fact, that is still a claim of Znetters. Or a missile launch from Mexico by proponents of closing the border. Obviously, as complexity makes everything even murkier, this will happen. I’m thinking here about Daily Mailer revelations were come thought the ends justifies whatever means.
The whole notion of capitalism and representative government relies on third party verification. Pew polls show what Americans think of the Press and of Congress. My theory is that if you can destroy non partisan reporting, A is true and false. It is this tipping point that worries me. Third parties are critical to both cooperation and capitalism. Even the Fed is a balance of three.
Interestingly enough, the term excluded middle can mean opposite things. It can be the silly situation of A both true and false, and also a third vantage point, the field on which action and reaction takes place. From here partially out side of dichotomy, one can extract some of what is true in views from one side of an issue and the other, which they cannot see. The Political Center is sometimes such a non partisan place and yet, it is indeed the excluded middle in the sense there ain’t no Independent or Middle Party….
Okay, enough of digressing. This applies to countries like Turkey where is must be a Political Center, yet through media and slogans, clarity is lost and polarity dominates. Ironic however, in modern history the polarity of the Cold War was in some ways more stabilizing than the Multipolar mess we are in now…..
where some thought the end justifies the means
“how many schools of journalism and their students could let such a political dirty trick of the worst kind if true go unreported?”
Ah, many; they graduate and work for the MSM. Non-partisan reporting doesn’t have to be destroyed by a head on attack; just don’t let it in the room. Drudge today: “Obama, Dems got 88% of employee contributions from ABCCBSNBC…”
See, “diversity” also has a new redefinition. Like fairness, justice, feminism…
Semite5000, did you ever hear from your Turkish friend?
I’m surprised you’re surprised, Max.
This is interesting. I wish I had a way of intertwining this thread with this one:
http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2010/08/30/to-and-fro-in-the-middle-east/
What we need is a “community organiser” to combine them, sell them and be able to make a profit and “re-distribute the funds”.
Oh well, just as well it doesn’t happen. YOU know, oil and water…
Papa Ray
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/146379.pdf
SO fighting Arizona’s immigration law is like fighting for human rights. One blogger said that when Muslims and Mexicans we welcome them like brothers they will respect us.
Kids rebel, that’s their nature. There is a concerted effort here to influence the news. Back to the State Department Report, to confuse the Constitution with “protecting human rights (open borders)” is something HRC knows better than doing. This looks like some Holder wrote. I rather think Mexicans and many Muslims think we’re idiots.
I don’t see the closing of Gitmo, civilian trials, repeal of the Material Support Bill here.
Well Papa, the comment thread is certainly different….
See, “human” (potential voters’) rights don’t necessarily coincide with taxpaying citizens’ rights. Does Mexico welcome Guatemalans like brothers? I had the AZ SB 1070 discussion with a Leftie neighbor who conveniently skirted the issue of an illegal adult first—necessary prerequisite, that is—breaking our laws to then have an anchor baby here.
A dark era of madness is descending.
September, October, November 2nd…Let there be light. Or else…
Bad enough already, Max that my A’s are being thumped in the Bronx tonight.
what happened to Turkey? nothing too much. Israel and Turekey are competitors becouse both sell gas. thats why this accident was provocated- actually nice way to get israel boycotted.
Has Israel actually pumped and physically sold any of that natural gas yet? My understanding is that the gas won’t start being pumped until 2012 and the refinery won’t be finished and operational until 2015.
Seeing as a small proportion of the off shore natural gas field named Levithan extends into Lebanese waters, it would seem only rightful that Israel and Lebanon negotiate a percentage of the profits from that one field to Lebanan.
Turkey does not sell natural gas. They buy it, mostly from the Iranians and Russians.
The black helicopters are real, they belong to…
160TH
SOAR,
R
#120 Render
Only natural gas currently being pumped in Israel is from relatively small Yam Tetis field, exclusively for internal consumption.
Looking at the concession maps, it doesn’t seem likely that Tamar and Leviathan gas fields straddle the border with Lebanon, but, of course, Leviathan structure may be larger than currently estimated.
MJT, this article seems to be too narrow way to view Turkey. Turkish/Israeli relations represent a small fraction of Turkey’s major international role and contribution.
Turkey has been one of the fastest growing economies in the world over the last decade. Total trade is about $250 billion/year.
We Americans and the world in general should try to emulate Turkey’s free trade, free investment, pro business, lower/simpler regulation policies.
Plus, the Turks are good at a lot else. Facilitating international coalitions to solve global problems would be only one of those things. The Turks have provided leadership in many global security missions [including Somalia 1993.]
To take just one example in Afghanistan: Turkey was perceptive enough to understand the international threat posed by the Taliban and AQ early on, and was one of the first countries [along with similarly farsighted Russia, India and Iran] to back the Northern Alliance against them. Turkey’s combat embedded advisors within the Northern Alliance had a good record prior to 9/11. After 9/11, they continued to perform ably.
When Pres Obama was elected, only about a thousand ANP were being trained at any given time. The Turks have played a significant role in boosting that training capacity to 11,200 ANP at any given time, of which about 10,200 are currently seated. Of these 2,600 in the training throughput are officers [educated policewho get long term training]. 600 of them are being trained physically in Turkey. Turkey is helping MoI, Germany, EGF [http://www.eurogendfor.org/], US, NTM-A, train the other 2,000 inside Afghanistan.
Turkey’s contribution to ANA training has been similarly valuable, as have Turkish embedded combat advisors.
Even more important, Turkey exercises positive moderating influence on Pakistan and many other countries.
Turkey makes many other positive international contributions. Turkey is an emerging superpower with 73 million people and a trillion dollar GDP that perceives and relates to the world increasingly in global terms. Israel has 7 million people with far less income, wealth and global influence. Israel and many other countries are naturally focused on their relations with Turkey. The reverse is less true.
While I don’t know “sect leader Fethullah Gülen” as well as some commentators here, to me he seems to be a positive force. He is a close friend and ally of Israel who opposed the aid flotilla to Gaza, preferring nonviolent ways to help Gazans. He is also a positive voice that stands up to global extremism including Takfiri extremism. Fethullah Gülen is no tool of President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan or anyone else.
anand wrote: “Fethullah Gülen…is a close friend and ally of Israel”
That is complete rubbish.
A more accurate analysis:
http://www.meforum.org/2045/fethullah-gulens-grand-ambition
“As Turkey’s ruling Justice and Development Party (Adalet ve Kalkınma Partisi, AKP) begins its seventh year in leadership, Turkey is no longer the secular and democratic country that it was when the party took over. The AKP has conquered the bureaucracy and changed Turkey’s fundamental identity. Prior to the AKP’s rise, Ankara oriented itself toward the United States and Europe. Today, despite the rhetoric of European Union accession, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has turned Turkey away from Europe and toward Russia and Iran and reoriented Turkish policy in the Middle East away from sympathy toward Israel and much more toward friendship with Hamas, Hezbollah, and Syria. Anti-American, anti-Christian, and anti-Semitic sentiments have increased. Behind Turkey’s transformation has been not only the impressive AKP political machine but also a shadowy Islamist sect led by the mysterious hocaefendi (master lord) Fethullah Gülen; the sect often bills itself as a proponent of tolerance and dialogue but works toward purposes quite the opposite. Today, Gülen and his backers (Fethullahcılar, Fethullahists) not only seek to influence government but also to become the government…”
Here is what’s up with Turkey:
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/38960983/ns/sports-nba/
“By Alexandra Hudson
updated 5:07 p.m. ET, Wed., Sept . 1, 2010
“ISTANBUL – Cheerleaders donned black leggings and white T-shirts for a World Championship basketball match between Iran and the United States in Istanbul on Wednesday to respect cultural sensitivities.
Some Iranian officials still left the arena shortly before their routine began, however. At previous matches officials had stood up and turned their backs.
Cheerleaders were missing altogether from Turkey’s last two matches in Ankara, raising eyebrows in the overwhelmingly Muslim but officially secular nation, particularly as scantily-clad cheerleaders had been present at other matches…
The Ankara troupe, named the Red Foxes and hailing from Ukraine, were absent during Turkey’s match against Greece on Tuesday and their match against Russia on Sunday.
The Russia match was attended by Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan and his wife, who wears the Muslim headscarf.
A spokeswoman for Turkey’s Sport and Youth directorate said she was not aware of any ban on cheerleaders at Turkish games.
A source close to the situation said however that Turkish government authorities had asked informally that cheerleaders not be present at games attended by officials of the ruling AK Party, which has roots in political Islam.”
Del, don’t fall for the smear campaign against Fethullah Gülen. He criticized the Flotilla and said aid to Gazans should be coordinated with Israel. He isn’t anti Israeli. Many people are simultaneously pro Israeli and pro Palestinian. Fethullah Gülen appears to be part of this group.
Turkey is European and Asian. It is natural for Turkey to seek close relations and alliances with as many countries as possible.
Who cares about cheer leaders?
anand wrote: “who cares about cheer leaders?”
Apparently, AKP party leaders as well as Iranian officials care strongly. Why would they?
As for Gulen, his criticism of the Gaza flotilla is comparable to Qaradawi’s criticism of bin Laden after 9/11. That is: Gulen see the IHH as a real or potential rival to himself, and aimed to cut them down a notch. Gulen is as much a friend of Israel as Qaradawi is a friend of the United States.
“anand wrote … complete rubbish.”
Yes, and in other breaking news the sun rises in the East.
“It is natural for Turkey to seek close relations and alliances with as many countries as possible.”
And with as many genocidal antisemitic savages like Hamas as possible. That is why anand is now such an enthusiastic cheerleader for Turkey.
hold on a second here…
I care about cheerleaders. Without cheerleaders basketball is just a bunch of really tall sweaty dudes in their underwear running up and down a wooden court and rubbing on each other. Who wants to watch that?
SAVE
THE
CHEERLEADERS,
R
Render, :LOL: . . . classic.
Del, many religious muslim dudes are pretty cool. Gulen at first glance might be one of them. Obviously normal orthodox traditional muslims dislike extremist muslims more than nonmuslims [even non muslims like Del] do. Probably always will. That is exactly the point. Nonmuslims and normal muslims ["normal" sounds a lot better than "moderate"] should ally with each other to resist the wackos. I think this is what the war on terror is about.
What is wrong with people nonviolently attempting to inspire and encourage Israelis to do right by the Palestinians? To believe that at heart the Israelis are a good and decent people who should be inspired to be true to themselves is to be a friend and well wisher of Israelis. True pro Palestinians are also pro Israel. Israel has enough real enemies to worry about to pretend that Israel’s friends are enemies too.
I don’t get the obsession with Israel. Israel is a cool important country. But it only has 7 million of the world’s 7 trillion people. Other countries matter too. Only a small percentage of humans look and understand the work through the prism of Israel.
Some people are pro Turk because they like Turks and what the Turks have done around the world on issues unrelated Israel. It makes more sense to look at Israel through the lenses of Turkey than look at Turkey through the lenses of Israel since Turkey is a more important [economically, politically, culturally, diplomatically, militarily] country than Israel.
“I don’t get the obsession with Israel.”
It’s because Jew-baiting savages like you want to kill all the Jews there. Also because little Israel has contributed more to scientific and technological advancement than the entire Arab and Muslim world put together. The oil ticks have blackmailed the West for *trillions* of dollars for a mineral they couldn’t even get out of the ground without Western technology. And they have nothing to show for it except limousines, concubines and a bunch of savagely repressive human rights hellholes.