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Another Electric Vehicle (But It’s Not for the Masses)

Can we please have more EVs that are cool AND affordable?

by
Becky Graebner

Bio

September 14, 2013 - 9:00 am
BMW-i8

A new EV for the super-car stable

Four months ago, I wrote a piece about the reemergence of electric car maker Detroit Electric. In that short piece, I mentioned that the electric car market is “super-saturated” with expensive, super cars.

While the American dream supports Detroit Electric’s pursuit of happiness (and success), I am not 100% sold on what D.E.’s niche will be…  what will make them stand out compared to its competition? The start-up EVs tend to be super-cars on a veggie diet… or electric sports cars.  Tesla has its sporty Model S and now we have, essentially, an electric Lotus Elise in the Detroit Electric SP.01. Keep in mind, buyers also have another luxury option in the electric BMW ActiveE.

The hybrid super-car competitor for Tesla and Detroit Electric, Fisker, is currently exploring bankruptcy and Tesla just made a profit (after 10 years). Do we really need another electric sports car?  It sounds like something isn’t working… and it think it’s the price-tag.

BMW revealed its newest, brightest EV at the Frankfurt auto show last week.  The new EV on the block?  ANOTHER EV super-car.  All I can do is shake my head.

Some stats on this new BMW:

Name: BMW i8 Plug-in

Tops speed in electric-motor mode: 75 mph

Mileage (Electric): 22 miles

Battery: 5 kilowatt-hour lithium-ion battery pack

Mileage (Gas): 94 mpg

Price tag: $135,925

What else could you buy for this money? According to The Detroit Bureau, almost three Chevrolet Volts…

Bottom line: The new BMW is really cool. It has some amazing horsepower (362hp!) and is luxurious inside and out, but it’s just way too expensive. The creme de la creme of the population has a fleet of EVs to choose from — how about the middle class?!

Heavy-hitter Tesla has heard the complaints and is attempting to bring down its prices so that more consumers can purchase their vehicles. Good plan. I have said this so many times that I am starting to annoy myself: If EVs are actually going to be the car of the future, there need to more affordable options for consumers. Please.  No more super-cars (unless they are under $40k).

Becky Graebner moved to the east coast from Wisconsin in 2011. She is still a rabid Badger and Packer fan, although she does support the Caps in hockey. She enjoys Formula 1 and Indycar. She likes the eastern seaboard but does miss track days with friends and family at Elkhart Lake and the Milwaukee Mile. Her favorite drivers are Kenny Brack and Robby Gordon.

Comments are closed.

Top Rated Comments   
I don't believe in Aether Wave Theory, so no, I don't want to talk physics with you.

You say that you have a degree in electrical engineering, but have you actually ever created anything? That's an important concept, because the people who are actually involved in creating new battery technology do not underestimate the difficulties. It's not like creating "TitStare" for your I-phone.

There is no "Moore's Law" for batteries. Doesn't exist, never will.

What we have is incremental improvements. In order for batteries to displace ICE on a large scale would require that batteries have high energy density (equal or exceeding that of gasoline on a pound for pound basis), fast discharge, fast recharge and high cycle life and it would have to do this in a range of temperatures experienced from Maine to Arizona. Creating a battery with those characteristics is proving about as difficult as creating a sustainable fusion reaction and for the last 50 years that technology has been "right around the corner"
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
What? For $135 grand, this beast can go an entire *22* miles as a electric vehicle, and that at a blazing top speed of *75* miles per hour? You have got to be kidding me! Unless it comes with an included accessory of say, the entire Swedish Bikini Team, they won't sell one of these!
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
Electric cars will never work as long as they rely on chemical batteries. You see, physics isn't interested in your ideology or desperate wishes for utopia.
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
All Comments   (62)
All Comments   (62)
Sort: Newest Oldest Top Rated
This is no more than a rush for all the makers to say "me too" look at what we have. Electric ( eclectic ) for you! They don't want to be left behind and are just trying to show that they can throw a bigger polluting nickel battery in an existing body style. They're still a long way from what the average driver needs. For now...it's for the "look at me" crowd with bucks to burn. The 1% of course, so they can lecture the rest of us on the "ills" of fossil fuels.
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
These don't use nickel batteries. Your confusing hybrids(like prius) with plugin hybrids(Chevy Volt) and BEVs(Tesla Model S). Hybrids like prius use nickel batteries. Cars like Chevy Volt and Tesla Model S use Lithium batteries.
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
The electric propulsion and battery is so expensive that a "cheap" EV will still cost $40 000 or so and will look so cheap that no one who can afford a $40 000 car (entry level BMW money) will buy one.

Yes, yes, I know the Leaf is cheaper than that, but it will hardly go around the block before you have to worry about recharge.
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
I'm not against electric supercars...but they don't seem to serve much of a purpose other than separating fools from their money.

What we NEED is an electric vehicle that serves the exact same purpose as a hundred years ago: quiet, easy, simple, cheap, urban transportation for about 40 miles and 40 mph.

An electric horseless carriage could run twice as far, and twice as fast, as a horse. So compared to a horse, electric is brilliant. Compared to a petrol engine, it's, well, a horse. So quit trying to make long-distance GT racers out of a battery car. Make comfortable, air conditioned transport pods that will get you from your house to the grocery store and the kids to school. Pretty much exactly like the Detroit Electric of a hundred years ago. Except with air conditioning.
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
That's not going to cut the mustard in places out west, like Southern California. Any practical car out here has to be able to drive the freeways, so a top speed of at least 70 MPH, and a range of at least 200 miles is absolute minimum. It has to be air conditioned and safe in a high-speed crash. I don't know of any EV's that can deliver those parameters at a reasonable cost of ownership compared to gas-powered cars.
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
Well technically the Tesla Model S can deliver that but the cost is outside of what most people would pay for a car. But they do have the Gen III coming in 2016/2017 which should deliver that at a price most people buying a new car can afford.
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
Exactly. Because EVs can't do that. It's the same argument that was made in The Horseless Age magazine in 1900. Electrics are best for urban use and delivery vehicles, where there's a low daily mileage and an overnight place to plug in; gas cars are best for long-distance and high speed work, where daily distance is only limited by the size of your tank. We're re-inventing the wheel because people are ignorant of history. Kinda like Barry's "presidency."
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
Nobody is ignoring history, technology just improved significantly since then. In the 1900s the top speed of electric cars were 10-20 mph and had range of 35-100 miles. On top of that they had to take forever to recharge.

Today, EVs have top speeds of over 100mph and range of over 200 miles and can be recharged in 30 minutes.

We even have the technology to recharge electric cars by wireless while they drive. (South Korea has 2 active bus lines running using wireless power)
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
What your describing is NEVs, there are a bunch of them actually. There is also a bunch of options like Nissan Leaf, Chevy Spark EV, i3, Ford Focus EV that do just that.

The reason why many of them target performance is because motors allow for 100% torque from 0. On top of that, it is easier to streamline the price of the battery into a luxury car than a budget car.

But overall people prefer cars that can do 200 miles+ and looks like a normal car, hence why the Tesla Model S is the fastest selling EV.
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
What? For $135 grand, this beast can go an entire *22* miles as a electric vehicle, and that at a blazing top speed of *75* miles per hour? You have got to be kidding me! Unless it comes with an included accessory of say, the entire Swedish Bikini Team, they won't sell one of these!
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
hey, Dave that's what they said about the Tesla. It's a, er, special market for folks who have to have the latest gadget without any regard for cost or practicality.
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
Well, yeah, except that the Tesla Model S has a range of *230* or *300* miles (depends on the battery pack you buy), no *22*, and a top speed of *125*. And costs about $80K, maybe $90K fully loaded. So 10-15 times the range, 1.6 times the top speed, and around 2/3 the price? Seems like a no-brainer.
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
OK, OK, but plug in hybrids are not the same as EVs and comparisons are difficult. I'm a big Tesla fan (I have an X on order if Musk will ever get around to building the dang thing) but the BMW guys are right proud of their cars and especially that engine.
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
Electric cars will never work as long as they rely on chemical batteries. You see, physics isn't interested in your ideology or desperate wishes for utopia.
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
Right, it has nothing to do with ideology or people's desperate wishes for a utopia. Chemical batteries are far from perfect, nothing in this world is or will ever be perfect. But physics dictates that batteries+motor are better than ICE. That is physics. The problem with ICE is extremely hard to fix, that being extreme inefficiency. It can be improved by adding a battery to make it a hybrid but overall it is still inferior to pure electric battery. Simple Physics.

On top of that, when we move away from chemical batteries to ultra capacitors for example. The transition will be seamless.
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
"The problem with ICE is extremely hard to fix, that being extreme inefficiency."

Extreme inefficiency? Today's ICEs are some of the most efficient engines ever created. Variable Valve timing, super/turbocharging, fuel injection, the list goes on. And they can do it at an incredibly cheap cost: You can get a traditional car for less than $20,000. You can't do the same with an all-electric and that's probably because all-electrics are really only of interest to people who have money to blow.
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
Yes, extremely inefficient. People have to remember that just because it is the most efficient it has ever been does not make it efficient overall. When ICE burns gasoline, most of the energy is completely wasted. In comparison, motors have efficiency of 90% or more.

And yes, you can buy a traditional gasoline car for 20k or less. But that is not possible with an EV. But that is because of economies of scale. Once the economies of scale comes in, you will have your 20k EVs. (Though considering fuel, maintenance and insurance savings, even a 35K EV is cheaper than a 20k gasoline car)

The price of batteries are dropping at around 7% per year.
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
"When ICE burns gasoline, most of the energy is completely wasted."

You're saying this when batteries wastes all of its energy over time? And I don't mean "years," but when it is not plugged in the battery still has to continue to provide power so that it can instantaneously respond to the need to provide power to said vehicle.

"At 40mpg a gasoline car can move only 92 miles."

I copied this from your response to tolbert. I don't even know what you mean by this. What I can tell you is that I do about 300 hundred miles every three days on a full tank of gas. My tank holds about 13 gallons so my mileage is about 23mpg. wh

At the same time, I can fill my car up with gas, not drive for weeks, months, or years (although the latter is not recommended) and still be able to go from Point A to wherever with hardly any problems.

How much more "extremely efficient" would you like for ICEs to be?

"And yes, you can buy a traditional gasoline car for 20k or less. But that is not possible with an EV. But that is because of economies of scale. Once the economies of scale comes in, you will have your 20k EVs. (Though considering fuel, maintenance and insurance savings, even a 35K EV is cheaper than a 20k gasoline car)"

"Automotive grade lithium ion chemistry have pretty good battery life. The battery in the Tesla Model S will last you 15-20 years and over 500k miles."

There's no way you can know this as a Model S has not been around for 15-20 years.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree. I don't see EVs as a future to anything, it solves a problem that doesn't require solving, and it is vastly expensive putting these cars in the hands of people who have too much money to spend on them.

I do see Teslas occasionally on the road. They are nice to look at, and they have good torque, but I can get all of that with my "extremely inefficient" ICEs.
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
"You're saying this when batteries wastes all of its energy over time? And I don't mean "years," but when it is not plugged in the battery still has to continue to provide power so that it can instantaneously respond to the need to provide power to said vehicle. "

Not really, your completing a circuit mostly. If you disconnect the circuit the energy won't flow. That is actually one of the advantages of EVs. The initial start up of the equipment is same as a gas car, a separate 12V battery.

"I copied this from your response to tolbert. I don't even know what you mean by this. What I can tell you is that I do about 300 hundred miles every three days on a full tank of gas. My tank holds about 13 gallons so my mileage is about 23mpg. wh"

To put it simply, a gallon of gasoline holds 131.76 MJ of energy. If you have a 23mpg car, that means your using up 5,728 KJ of energy per mile traveled. A car like the Tesla Model S that gets 265 miles for 85kwh is using up 1,152 KJ of energy per mile. That is why ICE is not very efficient, most of the energy of gasoline is wasted as heat and other things.

"At the same time, I can fill my car up with gas, not drive for weeks, months, or years (although the latter is not recommended) and still be able to go from Point A to wherever with hardly any problems. "

You can do the same with an electric car.

"How much more "extremely efficient" would you like for ICEs to be?"

1,152 KJ per mile? Though personally it was not a discussion of how efficient gasoline cars need to be but more of efficiency of battery+motor vs engine+gas. And how energy dense batteries need to be.

"There's no way you can know this as a Model S has not been around for 15-20 years."

It can be predicted by running the battery through multiple cycles back and forth. And watching the curve.

"We are just going to have to agree to disagree. I don't see EVs as a future to anything, it solves a problem that doesn't require solving, and it is vastly expensive putting these cars in the hands of people who have too much money to spend on them. "

That is relative. Why doesn't it require solving exactly? I think you miss the benefits of EVs so I will explain:

1) When you are in a gasoline car and are in traffic, or running around in slow speed around the city or stopping and waiting for a friend. Your gasoline car burns gas, a lot of gas. Electric cars on the other hand actually gain efficiency in those conditions. American households by average burn over 800$ a year in traffic. That can be reduced to 0$.

2) If you look at overall economy, it is in line with the price of oil. The price of oil dictates our economy growth and recessions. By switching to electric, we are no longer tied down to a single source of power for transportation. This creates stable prices and economic stability.

3) We can put an end to wars for oil and reduce military bases protecting that oil in foreign countries.

4) EVs are much safer than gasoline, that is because the battery is on the bottom. That allows for crumple zones and low center of gravity allows for better handling. There are over 200,000 vehicle highway fires per year. A switch to EVs can make that 0.

5) EVs are much more efficient and are cheaper to fuel. The cost of fueling an EV is 5x cheaper than a gasoline car. The difference will probably continue to grow as oil prices keep rising.

6) No tailpipe means that toxic emissions can offloaded in areas where there is no population and not into people's lungs and water supply. On top of that, since there is greater efficiency, the toxic emissions are also less and can be easily handled at power plant level. With eventually removing them.

7) 100% torque.

8) EVs require virtually no maintenance and can be diagnosed remotely.

9) It would streamline our infrastructure.

10) Less CO2 emissions.

I can do this all day. The benefits of EVs are there.
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
And where does all this electricity come from? Especially on a national grid that is experiencing increasing failures with no sign of abating. It's all BS!
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
Magical thinking will get you nowhere. You need to get a hard science degree or defer to someone who has one, because it is apparent that you do not have the basic understanding of physical phenomenon.

1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
I am sorry you feel my degree in electrical engineering is not good enough for you. What do you prefer that I study? Magic?

If your up for talking physics, I am up for talking physics. But it would help if you stop with the unicorn talk and lets talk physics.
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
I don't believe in Aether Wave Theory, so no, I don't want to talk physics with you.

You say that you have a degree in electrical engineering, but have you actually ever created anything? That's an important concept, because the people who are actually involved in creating new battery technology do not underestimate the difficulties. It's not like creating "TitStare" for your I-phone.

There is no "Moore's Law" for batteries. Doesn't exist, never will.

What we have is incremental improvements. In order for batteries to displace ICE on a large scale would require that batteries have high energy density (equal or exceeding that of gasoline on a pound for pound basis), fast discharge, fast recharge and high cycle life and it would have to do this in a range of temperatures experienced from Maine to Arizona. Creating a battery with those characteristics is proving about as difficult as creating a sustainable fusion reaction and for the last 50 years that technology has been "right around the corner"
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
What does Aether Wave Theory have to do with anything? We are not discussing how to make a quantum propulsion system.

When did I say that it is going to be easy as cake? All I am pointing to is basic physics and past trend as a ground work. Yes there is a Moore's Law for batteries. But the advances are not at the same rate as Moore's Law. Actually, people underestimate Moore's Law. Moore's Law is not achieved easily, it is achieved through billions spent on R&D.

And incremental improvements are more than enough. A breakthrough would accelerate things, but we reached a point where incremental improvements can get what we need.

And the fact that we need batteries that have the same or higher energy density or greater than gasoline is a mistake. Energy density is only one dynamic, but you have to factor in energy density and efficiency to do work. If we had batteries with energy density of gasoline, you would be able to travel 20,000 miles on 1 charge. Do you really need a car that goes 20,000 miles on 1 charge?

Again, you have to look at the efficiency of the entire system. First thing you have to realize is that gasoline does not burn itself, it requires an engine, a V8 engine weights 400lb-600lb on most cars. An EV can accomplish the same performance with two 70lb 3 phase ac induction motors.

Next thing we have to look at is center of gravity. While weight is important, center of gravity is also important. By having the battery on the bottom, you achieve low center of gravity. You can also create crumple zones and trim weight in other areas which would be impossible on a gasoline car without compromising safety.

And last thing is efficiency, as I pointed out below. An EV can move 265 miles on 306 MJ. At 40mpg a gasoline car can move only 92 miles.

So this is why batteries do not need to be as energy dense as gasoline. Because ICE engines are not very good at using said gasoline.

Fast discharge is not a problem for lithium ion batteries. Fast recharge is a little bit more tricky but also not a problem. The bright side to lithium batteries is as capacity goes up, so does the speed of charging. (Assuming you have a power source that charges at said rate like a supercharger).

But see, here is one advantage to EVs that are more difficult with ICE. On an EV you wake up every morning with 100% range. That means the only time you would need to to recharge is when traveling over your max range(which is what 0.1% of the time?). Tesla has gotten recharging speed to 200 miles in 30 minutes. The 3rd gen superchargers will cut them down to 5-10 minutes.

Automotive grade lithium ion chemistry have pretty good battery life. The battery in the Tesla Model S will last you 15-20 years and over 500k miles.

With BMS systems, difference is temperature is irrelevant. You will of course lose some range with heating up the cabin for example. But you would still have over 200 miles range on a Tesla Model S. Improvements can easily be made in this front by improving insulation and cabin heat system.

Ah, no. Not even close. For one, 50 years ago, a rechargeable Lithium Ion battery did not even exist. As I mentioned in another post which a lot of people don't realize. It is more than just making a battery that is better than an ICE of 100 years ago, it is about making a battery that is better than the ICE of today and tomorrow. Because while batteries have been improving, ICE has been improving as well with billions in R&D. Batteries have mostly been neglected. Over the past 100 years we have went through Lead Acid, NiCd, NiMH and finally arrived at Lithium Ion. Lithium Ion specifically with chemistry such as NCA became the first battery that became feasible to begin replacing ICE. And batteries are now advancing at a rate 10X faster than ICE as ICE technology begins to hit a dead end.

If it was not for laptops/tablets/cellphones, batteries would probably not have reached this point. The technology is not "around the corner", it is here now.
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
Boys, boys calm down. It isn't worth a fight.

Tolly, let me say this: I'm just another old lawyer and I get confused trying to line up the big prong on the plug with the big hole in the wall, BUT, there are at least four Teslas (four different colors) running around my neighborhood and it looks pretty real to me.
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
they need to start with allowing people to convert to natural gas. apparently the eco nuts in cali think joe user is fully capapble of going to autozone, buying all the parts and assembling whatever engine they want from the ground up. BUT somehow not qualified to mod the engine to run on NG. i can either buy an old p70 or pay several grand to have a 'professional' do it
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
ehh ill take my lil 4 banger old beat up civic. not worth the cost. there is no way youll make up the cost of that in gas savings. not to mention last i checked the Teslas refueling(charge) time is something like 12+ hrs or MORE. what gets me more is the fact that the 'eco friendly' feds wont let you mod engines to run natural gas. esp here in cali. you can pay someone 5g to do it tho...WTF (not Win The Future)
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
I don't think someone in the market for a luxury car is going to buy an old beat up civic. People have different needs, simple as that. As far as gas savings, it depends on what your comparing it to and how much mileage you put on it. For example, if you use a Tesla Model S as a Taxi, it will be cheaper then a beat up civic.

So again it depends on people's use and what your comparing it to. It also depends where you live (Places like Europe have pretty high gas prices). Though once Tesla releases the 35k Gen III, in 2016/2017, that will make a huge difference.

As far as recharging goes, it depends on how much range you have to fill up and what your filling up with. If your filling up with a Gen II Tesla Supercharger, you fill up 80% in around 30 minutes. If your at home and use a Tesla Twin charger, you can fill up to full from 0 in 4-5 hours. If you use a 240v dryer outlet, then yes around 10 hours. So it depends on what you charge with.

Obviously it makes sense that if your buying a Tesla to get the Twin charger for home.

1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
so I have an old honda that get 40 mpg on the highway and you think changing from a car with no payments to a car with high payments or cash out, is going to be economically beneficial.

Sorry, the cost of the car makes this a no brainer, not worth it.
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
No one is telling you to ditch a perfectly good, paid off car. I have an old Subaru that's got over 230 K on it, and has been paid off for over a decade so I have squeezed every dime of value out of the original sticker price but when it dies, I would consider a Tesla.
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
I am pretty sure I made it clear that the payout depends on people's individual condition. No 2 people will be the same. Each has their advantages and disadvantages.

For example, you have an old Honda that gets 40mpg on the highway, what does it get in the city? How safe is said old Honda? What is the insurance rate? What is the maintenance cost? What is the dollar value that you would put on your and your family's lives?

All these factors have to be considered when factoring in value. It doesn't have to work for everyone. It just has to work for enough people and it does.
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
I think it is a good strategy to start with expensive cars first and as the technology becomes more affordable the 'minion' class can buy up green electric pintos. They would make nice commuter vehicles or maybe even US mail trucks; something that could plug-in at the parking garage.

I live out west and until I can go 200+ miles round trip at 80Mph towing a load of hay there is no way I'm buying an electric vehicle. It cracks me up to see guys in their way cool Teslas zooming across I-70 from Denver and then in an absolute panic looking for an 'electricity pump' in Aspen.

I'm waiting for Mr. Fusion to come out. That should have enough power.
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
You can get 200 miles on a Tesla Model S going 80mph. Though even with the SUV like cargo capacity I don't think loading up hay in it would be most efficient. Because its a family sedan after all.

Tesla plans to release a pickup truck in the future, if they but their 500 mile battery in that, it will more then fit your needs.

Also, I think Aspen is getting a Tesla supercharger in 1-3 months.
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
Come on tell us...you work for Tesla, dont ya?
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
No, all this information is public info. I wish I had insider info.
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
Thanks you...two times...I've got it straight now. Prius, nickel and al that!
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
at least 1.21 jigawatts ;0)
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
Electric cars are toys, nothing more. They don't solve any problems. The DO relocate one - pollution. If all of southern California ran on electric vehicles, the air would be cleaner there, but whatever environmental impact isn't there, was simply moved to wherever the elect5ricity was generated. Oh, and then there's the pollution caused by the mining, processing, and disposing of millions of batteries full of toxic chemicals.

TINSTAFFL.

There is no compelling energy or environmental case for electric cars. There won't be until we find a better way to generate electricity.

That is where the research money needs to go.
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
Actually, they solve a lot of problems and for obvious reason. The benefits EVs give go far above just environmental reasons.

That said, on the environmental front:
1) Yes, the pollution is offset to other locations, but those locations don't have people, so people are not breathing in said pollution. There is a big difference between a tree falling somewhere in the forest, and a tree falling right on top of you.
2) Even still, EVs are more efficient then ICE vehicles, so that pollution is less. You would pollute 2x less by burning the same oil in a power plant and using it in an EV then a gasoline car.
3) Your not creating reasons for not using EVs, your creating reasons for why we should clean up the grid. One does not detract from the other. A catch 22 argument makes no sense, we can do both and we are doing both.
4) I hate to break it to you, but Lithium Ion batteries are non-toxic,use no rare earth metals and are 100% recyclable at a profit. (Your probably confusing them with Lead Acid batteries, not the same thing)

1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
"2) Even still, EVs are more efficient then ICE vehicles, so that pollution is less. You would pollute 2x less by burning the same oil in a power plant and using it in an EV then a gasoline car."

Yes, assuming you have a 100% efficient power delivery system.

Whoops! You are also assuming we have the capability to generate enough electricity to power those EVs.

We don't, and it's not anywhere on the horizon. No, it's not in solar or wind or ocean currents. We don't have it, and we aren't getting it unless we radically change course.
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
"Yes, assuming you have a 100% efficient power delivery system."

Actually I was assuming realistic conditions. If I assumed 100% efficient power delivery than it would be more. You never asked for what would happen if I used a 100% efficient power delivery model so I used the real world model. Do you want me to calculate how much more efficient it would be in an 100% efficient power delivery system.

"Whoops! You are also assuming we have the capability to generate enough electricity to power those EVs."

We have the capability to generate enough electricity to power millions of EVs without any new power plants. That is because most EV charging is done at night. during night, most energy capacity goes underutilized.

Here is a fun fact, it takes as much electricity just to produce 1 gallon of gasoline as it takes to drive an EV an equivalent of 1 gallon of gasoline.

"We don't, and it's not anywhere on the horizon. No, it's not in solar or wind or ocean currents. We don't have it, and we aren't getting it unless we radically change course."

I don't know if your up on current events, but many states are moving towards renewable energy. Today, already 10 states generate 90%+ of their electricity from renewable energy. Other states are catching up increasing their renewable energy by set deadlines. Of course there are some states who are holding out and don't want to. But even then, due to strict EPA regulations, they are forced to make their powerplants more efficient.

Personally I think with solar, wind, hydro, tidal and thorium reactors we can fully convert away from burning fossil fuels for energy generation. (This last line is strictly my opinion)
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
We saw a Tesla S on the highway the other day and it was gorgeous. When I mentioned how expensive it was my very wise 16 year old pointed out that my current ride gets under 20 mpg and requires premium. He's right, of course. If the model S gets the equivalent of 90 miles per gallon, the sticker price is not that shocking, really.
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
Except that for the price difference between your current car and the Tesla you could afford to put gas in it for 40 years.

I have been an engineer for some 35 years. EVs still have a long way to go to compete with internal combustion engines, which are still being improved upon. Baring some miracle, I do not expect EVs to equal ICEs in number during my lifetime.

1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
I am sorry to hear you don't plan to live very long.

That said, EVs don't need to equal ICE vehicles, they can be better then ICE vehicles. Even without any breakthroughs, at the rate we are going is more then enough. A breakthrough will just accelerate the process. For example, Tesla is already testing a 500 mile battery that will go in the next Model S refresh in 4-5 years.

Though how in the world do you know what kind of car he is driving or how many miles he puts on the car? Judging he is putting premium gasoline in his car means that he is driving a premium car already.
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
Thank you, Weapon. I am a female and yes, I can do math.

1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
"That said, EVs don't need to equal ICE vehicle, they can be better then (sic) ICE vehicles"

Yes, and unicorns will better than horses when they inevitably arrive, because, well they just will.... Do you believe in EVs?...If you believe, clap your hands!

BTW, I have a Porsche 914 that I converted to electric several years ago. Again, barring Jesus descending with a miracle battery pack, EVs aren't displacing ICEs in any volume anytime soon.

If I were betting on a replacement for ICEs it would be fuel cell powered vehicles rather than EVs. And don't get me started on "supercapacitors" either.



1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
"Yes, and unicorns will better than horses when they inevitably arrive, because, well they just will.... Do you believe in EVs?...If you believe, clap your hands!"

So instead of making a logical response you respond with lala land gibberish? I see no reason to compare it to believing in unicorns. (That is not to say that in the future humans will not be able to genetically engineer a unicorn but that is a different debate). The point is such EVs exist today, and we have the technology right now to make them even better. That is how technology works, get used to it.

"BTW, I have a Porsche 914 that I converted to electric several years ago."

That is more of an indicator of your limited engineering ability than the limitations of the human race as a whole. Overall though, converting a gasoline vehicle to electric makes as much sense as making cars with horse legs. Inefficient. To make a proper EV, you need to start from scratch and make a car centered around a battery.

" Again, barring Jesus descending with a miracle battery pack, EVs aren't displacing ICEs in any volume anytime soon."

You don't need a miracle battery. Will a battery breakthrough help? certainly. If we can make Lithium-Air and other Metal Air batteries commercial it will be huge. But even without them, current improvements in batteries is more than enough to begin the transition. Obviously, initially they won't work for everyone. When gasoline cars came out they didn't work for everyone either. But slowly and steadily they will take over markets. And they are displacing them in markets. The Tesla Model S for example is the best selling premium full sized sedan in the USA. In Norway, Tesla Model S is the best selling car of any car.

The biggest barrier to entry right now is cost. And that is what the Gen III will help resolve.

"If I were betting on a replacement for ICEs it would be fuel cell powered vehicles rather than EVs. And don't get me started on "supercapacitors" either."

Well first of all, fuel cell cars are EVs. With that out of the way, as much as I think fuel cell technology has uses, its not very useful in cars. I know why people get obsessed with fuel cells, it promises them an ICE equivalent. But that is the wrong way to look at it, the question is not what technology makes the best ICE car, the question is what technology makes the best car. And if you look at all current technologies and their future potential. Battery EVs make the most sense.

As far as supercapacitors go, Tesla originally planned to make a super capacitor/battery hybrid. But found that with current technology it makes more sense to use a larger battery. Though they do hope for prospects in that field in the future.
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
Again with the magical thinking.

Why don't you just spout the nonsense that they will be printed on a 3-D printer as well.

There's no use in trying to show you the error of your thinking as you're obviously a Dave Matthews fan as well.
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
You don't have to believe in facts. They will happen with or without you. Like all new technology, there is doubt phase and eventually there is an acceptance phase.

While a possibility of printing cars in the future on a 3D printer is possible.(NASA already prints engines on a 3D printer) And it would be very good. I have not yet done my due research on the topic enough to give the time table or viability of the technology.

Who is Dave Matthews?
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
Dave Matthews is a musician. Don't know much about him...
1 year ago
1 year ago Link To Comment
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