“…men who are in closer contact with their friends are happier, healthier and wealthier.”
So says an article on Bromances:
The report argues the evolution of friendship has moved from the reserved 19th and 20th century model, in which men were more independently minded, to a 21st century interconnected world of the kind depicted in films such as “Wedding Crashers,” in which two friends openly profess their emotional reliance on each other.
It describes such dynamics as “fireteam friendships,” a basic unit of four or five friends who watch each others’ backs, and argues that men who are in closer contact with their friends are happier, healthier and wealthier.
When men marry, they don’t see their friends as often. In earlier times, married men had lodges, clubs and other places to hang out with other men. These are now discouraged or illegal. Married men seem more isolated down in a man-cave or garage these days. How does this affect their well-being?
Dr.Smith
I hope you don’t mind an entirely unrelated comment but I think that it is on a subject that you find interesting. I have read that Mitt Romney won overwhelmingly among married people, both men and women. When I read sites aimed at women, they seem to have an awful lot of articles complaining that men will not “commit”. Given that the laws are so stacked against men, it seems that many are rationally deciding that marriage is not worth the risk.
What if it were possible to pass state laws that lower that risk? One area that almost everybody agrees is unjust is paternity fraud. What if the laws were changed so that in a divorce no child care payments will be awarded until there has been a DNA test to verify that the divorced husband is the father of the child? Obviously most men do not get married to women that they think will cheat on them and then divorce them but the possibility exists and it is a risk that adds to the calculus that many men are making in deciding against marriage.
So you might have a few marriages where a cheating woman stays with her oblivious husband who raises and pays for her kids instead of divorcing him and collecting child support. I think that the current consensus is that the kids will be better off raised in an intact family (although you would know better than I what studies say about that sort of thing).
The main result, though, is that one risk of marriage is removed, some more men will make the calculus that the risk of marriage is worth it and some more women who would like to marry and be faithful to their husbands will have that opportunity.
The only people worse off are cheating whores and the Democratic Party.
One male-only bastion remains: The Masonic Lodge. Good luck with getting women into that room.
Don’t hold your breath. It is coming…
FYI the lodge was formed to help men, mentored by older men, reach for and live more responsibly.
Done, fini, over.
Sigh
(Lyrics to taps)
Day is done, gone the sun,
From the lake, from the hills, from the sky;
All is well, safely rest, God is nigh.
Fading light, dims the sight,
And a star gems the sky, gleaming bright.
From afar, drawing nigh, falls the night.
Thanks and praise, for our days,
‘Neath the sun, ‘neath the stars, neath the sky;
As we go, this we know, God is nigh.
Sun has set, shadows come,
Time has fled, Men must go to their beds
Always true to the promise that they made.
While the light fades from sight,
And the stars gleaming rays softly send,
To thy hands we our souls, Lord, commend.
Feminists have specifically stated their intentions to break apart male spaces. It’s very important to female-centric social engineering.
Indeed. While of course supporting female centric clubs and such. I have a cigar club and weekly men’s group that helps me in this regard, along with my wife’s best friend is my best friend’s husband. But friendships with men is really important to us guys, and important to build into our lifestyles no matter what the resistance.
Trey
“I have a cigar club”
I go to a cigar club once a week. We smoke cigars, play cards, etc. When women walk in they cough, turn around and walk out. To keep quit the busybody women everywhere, smoke a lot of cigars.
Exactly so, Zorro. And there seems to be a mild resurgence of the institution, When I joined Lodge about 13 years ago, in my mid 40s, there were only a few men younger than me. Now, I am the old man of actively participating members.
Joining the Blue Lodge was the smartest thing I ever did. My lodge brothers rate as the finest men I have ever known. And the more I read about the history of the craft, the more impressed I am. You should read Born in Blood by John J. Robinson. That is the finest and most authentic history of the beginnings of Freemasonry. The rep it has today is preposterous. I’d like to smack Dan Brown until his eyes go crosseyed permanently.
I went looking for more information and found that the full report seems to be available online here.
Then there are sections of the report like the following:
i.e. it seems to be pushing the interchangeability argument – I’d disagree with their “authoritative” study though – even though it’s one who’s conclusions they do seem to overstate (and which does at least acknowledge some differences in aggression and lists in its metaanalysis “Agreeableness: Tendermindedness” as a strongly female-oriented trait and “Assertiveness” as a moderately male-oriented trait).
Men’s spaces are good for men but if they are to make a comeback it is men who will have to create them. If they do not come back, then men didn’t want them bad enough.
Most men (sorry, but it’s true) just don’t need to connect to other human beings, except a woman.
Yup. The plan is find a new ‘mommy’ and attach yourself to her like Bob the humanoid barnacle.
As one man I know said, ‘why hang around with a man, you’re not going to GET ANYTHING’.
Men pretty much use other men to fuss over their hobbies. Hi-fi gear, cameras, sports, etc. Other than that, forget it.
‘Male friend’. That’s pretty much a contradiction in terms. I’ve been looking for men who wanted to be friends for 40 years. I have pretty much given up.
It’s possible you hang around too many introverts. Or maybe you’re the kind of guy who moisterizes a bit too much.
Men who hang around other men don get anything? My mother taught me how to cook. She is the only woman who ever taught me anything. Everything else I have learned came from other men. The knowledge and skill transfer among men is unbelievable.
Finally, men seek friendship for the same reason women do: our friends are people we trust, and everyone needs someone they can bounce ideas off or seek counsel. Or do you prefer to trust politicians, lawyers, journalists and the sales staff at Friendly Bob’s Used Car Bazaar?
Stop slagging introverts. There are plenty of introverted women.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0KYU2j0TM4
Read her book “Quiet”.
I am an introvert. I don’t have the time to read fluff by feminists. Read Party of One by Aneli Rufus. Or Introvert Power. Or The Introvert Advantage.
“As one man I know said, ‘why hang around with a man, you’re not going to GET ANYTHING’.”
Obviously a man who thinks sex is the only thing worth getting…which means he wasn’t getting it.
It’s easier as a male to be friends with another man than to be friends with a woman. At the very least you can relate to each other better.
I would love to have more time with my close male friends.
Given, however, that I have a full time job, a house, a 4-year old and a 7-month old, I wouldn’t have time to spend with them even if most of them didn’t live several states away. The idea of some sort of men’s club is, to me at this moment, entirely useless.
Seems Helen discourages a discussion involving fraternities, or maybe just Masonic Lodges.
My failed marriage of 20+ years witnessed a systematic discouragement by my ex of fraternizing with my male friends. They, my male friends, you see were imperfect. A human enough condition. In isolation, I worked harder. Turned out, working did not meet Ex’s needs. Wives can disappoint. I worked harder yet; wrong guess.
Maybe, had I had fraternity 20 years ago, I could have better recognized my predicament by the various situations of my brothers. Maybe I could have corrected.
If you believe Helen is discouraging any sort of interaction amongst men, then you are misreading her as much as you admit misreading your wife.
Male bonding is different from female bonding, and different from male-female bonding. The fist is based on trust, the second on support and the third on responsibility.
I think the thing about this bromance nonsense is related to the breakdown of the nuclear family and the absence of fathers. It takes a man to raise a boy to be a man.
When I was a kid, whenever I had a problem or got into trouble, I could always go to my father. He wasn’t my friend. He was my father. But he would always support me and help me work through whatever problem I had or trouble I was in. Of course, if I really screwed up, he would smack me upside the head, before telling me how and why I screwed up.
Male friends, and I mean real friends, are for adventures, like camping, hunting, going to football games, stuff like that. Men laugh and joke together, make fun of each other, but a friend always your back when the going gets tough. Women do not do this with their friends. They sit around and talk about their relationships. Men do not talk about their relationships with their friends. A relationship between a man and a woman is between him and her. “Hey, who was that hot girl I saw you out with the other night?” “That’s for me to know and for you not to find out.”
Bromances are for boys who did not have a father figure growing up. They’re basically like an infantile gang centered on juvenalia. I suppose they make for good comedy, but at the first sign of real trouble the bromance breaks up.
A real friend, a true friend, will stand by you and always have your back.
Most men lead relatively solitary lives. They have relationships with women, but very few friends. Of the true friends I have had over my life, two died young, two moved to California, one lives in Tennessee, one lives in Dallas, and one lives in Maine, my brother.
Most of the guys I meet are just as boring as most of the girls I meet. And I wouldn’t trust either of them for as far as I could throw them out the door.
The “Bromance” is the modern day version of what used to be called “The Buddy Flick”. They were pretty popular in the 70′s, the most popular of which is arguably Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.
Those who haven’t seen a movie like that, watch one then watch one of these “bromances”. You’ll see how the dynamic was, and what it’s devolved into now.
FWIW, I agree with #6 Gawain’s Ghost. I had a group of close friends when I was younger, but having “lost my mind” by ridding myself of the Left wing brainwashing, not many of those friendships remain. I remember noticing in college, the emphasis on homosexuality seemed to drive guys apart in the sense that you didn’t want to get to know another guy too much, because you never knew if he was alternative or not, and who wants to open that can of worms? Also most of the ‘macho’ posturing that sets the foundation of male friendships was strictly taboo–any overt sign of manhood meant you’d never get laid as an undergraduate again. Plus, you never knew who was the kind of feminist who, if you were to share a reflection about women with, would then go and spread the word you were an objectifier etc. As an adult, I would say male friendships start with respect based on demonstrated ability. Whenever expediency enters the equation, it adds a layer of calculation that prevents friendship from developing, e.g. most work related ‘friendships’. What is a ‘bromance’? Whatever it is, it doesn’t sound right.
I have always been a bachelor and will remain so. All of my male friends are married and it is very difficult to get any time alone with them. “My purpose is to serve”, one of my buddies told me, referring to his family. And he said this in front of them before we went on one of our few Saturday afternoon hikes. When my guy friends aren’t fixing this or that(the honey-do list), or doing something with/for the kids, he is doting on her. I feel that there is an undercurrent of jealousy from the wives because these women resent that I am taking their husbands attention away from them.
And then they have to gall to put us down for not having any close friends!
You have wisdom, JimG.
In a comment that follows, Jeff fleshed out some of the details.
Men do stuff. They are all about skills: nunchuku skills, bow hunting skills, computer hacking skills. They form what looks (to women) like shallow relationships centered mostly on their interests. Sometimes they will coordinate with several men to accomplish audacious things. Women roll their eyes and say, “if only their powers could be used for good.” After all, any effort that isn’t directed at establishing what *they* want is childish by definition.
Women don’t actually need skills– not like men. They can dally with interests, hobbies, or careers… but seriously, how far would you pursue any of those things if members of the opposite sex were only too willing to give you a pass or a free ride. Women can do stuff like math if they wanted… but the path of least resistance is to get some nerdy guy to do it for them. Just the hint of sexual attention will get those guys to put out.
Women are supposed to be experts at relationships. This is not they case– what they are good at is emotional warfare. People on the losing side of guilt trips and power plays just assume that women know more about emotions and relating and communicating. That’s why when you get a group of women together, you immediately get drama. Men establish their pecking orders based on skills; women base theirs on power. Women are all about establishing a pecking order and sabotaging their “friends” and shunning and excluding people.
This is all possible because the vast bulk of women in the U.S. under 50 believe, literally, that their own vagina is the center of the universe, and is the most wonderful and powerful thing in the universe. The reasons for this erroneous notion are numerous, but chief among them are messages from the education and entertainment industries.
Therefore, they “reason”, it is only right and fitting that a man forego anything in his life other than earning money for, entertaining, and worshipping the vagina.
Sadly, large swaths of men have bought into this notion as well.
“Women don’t actually need skills– not like men.”
———-
Most men are brought up to directly face problems, face the physical world and get things done themselves. Many women are brought up to simply get men to do it for them. Men manipulate the physical world; women manipulate men.
Men need skills for handling the physical world (engineering, inventive skills, logic, seeing reality) – women need skills to effectively manipulate men (using sex, the promise of sex, tears, guilt induction, victimhood etc.).
I guess everyone has their role.
The guy down my street became a millionaire by working his butt off for forty years with his own plumbing business; Heather Mills became a millionaire by marrying a millionaire, getting wined and dined and then divorcing him a few years later.
Everyone has their role (except that women are terribly oppressed).
“When men marry, they don’t see their friends as often. In earlier times, married men had lodges, clubs and other places to hang out with other men.”
I once had a friend that played chess and other games with me. I got married, and he got married… and months later I come up for air and decide to go back for a game. His wife was cold to me… and she sat on the couch why we played and talked. She sent out this vibe of discontent… and nagged her husband about some sort of social event they had to go to in a couple of hours. I never went back. It just wasn’t worth a struggle.
Other guys… I ask them to do stuff… they say, yeah sure… then they call back in a day or three and say their wife has something planned for them. If I’m organizing couples type activities, I don’t even bother asking the men. The wives keep the social calendars after all.
I’m all for women doing their thing… but to behave this way and then wonder why guys don’t have friends is particularly galling.
More emotional warfare tricks:
* If a man works hard to provide to you and the kids, complain about how he’s never there for you.
* If a man does the Mr. Mom thing to any extent, complain about how he is a loser and no good at it.
* If a man does anything that is not directly related to supporting and entertaining his wife and kids, speak loudly about how selfish he’s being.
* Complain that your husband is distant and beg him to “open up.” When he does… be sure to let him know how ashamed he should be of his feelings and inner life. Make sure to point out how his honest reaction to life is somehow a direct assault on your emotional well-being. When he predictably withdraws after this, throw pots and pans at him until he becomes sensitive and romantic.
* Always go for the jugular vein. Always deal the low blow. If your husband reacts with the slightest hint of anger or if he defends himself in anyway, speak loudly about how you just can’t relate or trust or reciprocate or have any sort of mutuality with a man that behaves so brutishly.
* If any man speaks frankly about marriage, cut him down in any opening that presents itself. This can be especially effective if you add spiritual Jesus-Bible talk to the mix.
* If any man raises concerns hook-up culture and general trends in marriage, shut him down by labeling him as a loser in his mom’s basement that is incapable of having success with women.
It is inevitable that once a man is married, he is less available to his former social circle. That is both understandable and predictable if we are to assume he is a devoted husband/father.
Having said that…
I have noticed numerous cases where, once a woman turns a man into a husband, she culls various members of his social group. The longer a husband associates with a pal who is a bachelor, the more likely he will be jettisoned out of the husband’s life. A pal who is married will often (not always) be welcomed firmly into the husband’s life as will his wife.
I don’t think married women much like their husbands associating with bachelors, and the worst bachelor of all is a happy one. No wife wants her husband to listen to the details of that awesome salmon fishing trip to Alaska, nor the junket to the US Open tournament, nor especially that 15-day trip to Bangkok which the bachelor is especially hesitant to describe in great detail.
The Friend: “Hey, Fred! I just got back from a SUPERB 5-day marlin hunt in Bermuda. You wanna hear about it?”
The Wife: “Time for you to be off!”
Yeah I am famous for getting cut out of my male friends’ lives by their wives. Has happened several times. She can’t let a free man give her donkey tales of life outside of the farm.
Interesting, my situation is reversed, I am more introverted and my wife more extraverted with theater friends. They are just too much histrionics for me, so I get scarce when they are around. Over time, my wife hangs with them less. I am cool with her spending time with friends she likes, so my wanting to not be involved hasn’t cut down her social time. Bottom line is I do not need as much social time as she.
Trey
Most of my male friends are overseas (in the City or the Sillicon Valley). The only males I see on a regular basis are the husbands of my female friends and we get well with each other, while we are not that close to see out of their wives’ presence.
Part of the problem is that many women have been brought up to believe that their husband should be their best friend. Thus, any male friends he has are in her eyes competition for his affections.
I encourage my guy to hang around male friends (and have always encouraged, so I, little-miss introver can have some alone-time)
It does seem that they’d rather be home alone, home with me, or out with me.
I guess I’ve always found introverts, now that I think about it!!
I am like a lot of guys here. I don’t think an adult male needs to hang out with friends. Human are like deer, the females herd and the males hang out by themselves. I used to be in the army, single and live in barracks. You formed really close friendships with you mates, but then you would move to another unit and never see them again. Of course your career would cross paths with them over time and you would catch up, but you really didn’t have need to hang out. I am now happily married. I spend all day at work in a 95 percent male environment. I would consider my work mates friends, but after spending all day with them none of us feel any requirement to socialize after work. In my spare time I have my young sons and my sports team. I have a few close friends who have known for 20 years to life, we regularly communicate but rarely see each other face to face. My wife if very gracious with all my friends, has never tried to pressure me into not having them over (not a common event anyway) and she has never tried to stop me from going out to do guy things (hunting for a week at a time on an annual basis, gun club, sports meets). Mind this is wife 2.0. wife 1.0 was a real horror show.
I posted the following on Doctor Helen’s website on 2012-09-21. It is appropriate in this forum:
There is nothing feminine about feminism. Feminism objectives were never egalitarianism and equality. Their objectives have always been getting even with, and punishing men; obtaining revenge and reprisal against men; attaining superiority over adult men; condemning little baby boys to a life of false guilt.
I grew up in a neighborhood of people whers a large group of us became life long friends. A large group knew each other from elementary through high school and even college years. Marriage and career moves (some literally) spread us out. Yeah, some drifted away, me being one of them for 14 years.
There is still a core group of us (8) who still see each other, drink beer, cook out, play music in various garages. We built decks, painted and roofed each other houses. We’ve been at each others’ weddings, graduations, kids’ birthdays, and sadly, funerals. We are all staring at 60. I’d say we’re lucky. Hmmm…..I need to make a phone call.