Quagmire
The bloody mess we’re seeing in Iraq today is typical for the end of any war.
World War II ended in Europe in May of 1945. But the fighting, on several fronts, lasted for years. Italians battled Yugoslavs around Trieste; Greeks and Turks fought their own; there was a practical mini civil war in France against collaborators; French colonial forces found themselves at war in Indochina; the denazification of Germany was sometimes bloody (much like what we’re seeing in Iraq today); and more. “It’s a little-known fact, Diane,” that partisans in the newly-annexed western Ukraine kept fighting against their Soviet overlords well into the ’50s.
Probably the only reason the occupation of Japan went so smoothly is that the Emperor had commanded his people not to fight
The problem isn’t with the war, it’s with the media coverage. Iraq Round 2 will go down in history as one of the most complete and shocking military victories ever once the media becomes more concerned with history and the truth instead of sensationalism and attacking Bush. The complete defeat and occupation of a country with about 300 casualties? Are you kidding me?
It sounds kind of funny, but we really need the blogosphere to cover this war. There’s a very real disconnect between reality and the negativistic fantasy that the media is portraying in its coverage. Truth, history, and context are simply vanishing from the news and are being replaced by an uninterrupted stream of opinion.
And to think less than a generation ago Walter Cronkite with his TV news reporting used to be the most trusted person in America. Sad.
Stephen,
Excellent point.
I’d like to suggest, however, that it is also worth noting that the American track record in fighting counter-insurgencies is quite impressive:
Indian Wars of the 19th Century
Filipino Insurrection
Central American “banana wars” of 1920s
Hukbalahap insurgency (Philippines)
And, if you believe Lewis Sorley, even the Vietnam War was not lost to the insurgents. Certainly, post-Tet’68, it was clear that the GUERILLA war was over there. Notice that South Vietnam fell, not to guerilla marching into Saigon (as occurred in Hanoi in ’54), but to an armored thrust down the coastal highway—a very conventional war.
we only lost vietnam to the democrats (or rather the left wing of that) aka filthy dirty hippies
now we have ann coulter, so that aint gonna happen!
The Left is not concerned with truth or fact.
It is emotion driven. They can’t accept the
world for the cold, cruel place it can sometimes be. But they are great with slogans. IT’S ALL ABOUT THE OOIIILLL !!!!
Go Army, Hang tough.
The Left is not concerned with truth or fact.
It is emotion driven. They can’t accept the
world for the cold, cruel place it can sometimes be. But they are great with slogans. IT’S ALL ABOUT THE OOIIILLL !!!!
Go Army, Hang tough.
What bolsters your case, Stephen, is that the “smooth”-ness of Japan is only relative; even though violence against Occupation troops was rare and generally confined to the early months, the populace itself was in upheaval and chaos for over two years. A famine in the 1945-1946 winter exacerbated need in the devastated nation; a black market thrived and the Yakuza grew immensely in an economic vacuum. Anecdotal and documented incidents of widespread theft, looting and bizarre criminal mischief and tragic murder dot the months through 1947.
A general strike was planned for February 1st, 1947 (the “Two-One Strike”) by Moscow-backed Communist forces that had been taking advantage of massive industrial unionization instructed by MacArthur’s populist demands. It was stared down successfully, and as popular appeal for extremism like socialism and Communism faded with the gradual restoration of normal life, Japanese authorities and SCAP began conducting “red purges” in 1950.
And in regards to MacArthur: even though political control was always solidly in American hands (thus precluding mischief from the Soviets or vicissitudes from Europe), reactionaries in the Diet and conservative Prime Minister Shigeru Yoshida would quite often give the Supreme Commander a political run for his money.
Bottom line: a country’s reclamation is a noble pursuit – but an unimaginably difficult, frustrating undertaking that can only be completed with vision and perserverence. No exceptions. Ever since I so much as acquainted myself with the general outline of SCAP’s work from 1945-1952, very little in Iraq has either surprised or bothered me.
Michael Ubaldi puts his finger on a key point:
For a truly successful insurgency to flourish, there must be not only outside support (such as several of the Communist efforts saw), but also some kind of leadership around which to rally.
The Japanese had no such thing, in large part b/c the Emperor himself surrendered. Nazi Germany lacked the same, b/c the top leadership was dead.
This does not guarantee peace, or even victory, but it simplifies matters enormously.
Nailing the two sons (and hopefully Saddam) will remove the same core around which the Ba’athists will rally. It won’t end the war, but it’ll knock out a goodly hunk of internal support.
The blogger guesses with such confidence.
The differences between Iraq and Vietnam are of course, too numerous to mention, but there are similarities – maybe key ones. Is Iraq more like Vietnam where we found ourselves unable to identify the enemy who surrounded us or is it more like Cuba, with it’s guerilla irregulars? Impossible to say given what we know – Republicans like to say that it’s just some holdout Baathists causing all the problems, but there’s notable evidence that there’s hatred of Americans across the religious and ethnic spectrum. If it’s the former, we can win just through attrition. If it’s the latter, we couldn’t win in a million years. I don’t know which it is yet, and anyone who claims to is lying.
And anyone who says that “if this is another Vietnam, then I’m going to be the next Pope” is just playing indian poker.
“Republicans like to say that it’s just some holdout Baathists causing all the problems, but there’s notable evidence that there’s hatred of Americans across the religious and ethnic spectrum.”
And yet what it’s not across is most of the country– it’s mostly confined to a Baathist stronghold. Funny how you didn’t mention that.
And this “notable evidence that there’s hatred of Americans across the religious and ethnic spectrum” amounts to what and comes from where? If the evidence comes from the (barely even) anecdotal quotes from BBC, CCC, and/or NPR I for one would encourage you to remember their track record in the 8 or so weeks of actual fighting.
Great post, Steve. See “Germany Was Not a Piece of Cake” in The 7/28 Weekly Standard to the same effect.
But, Heiligestrohsack, Mein Herr, you forgot Deutschland after WW I, esp. with the “stab in the back” rants & riots. A German American friend of mine tells how his ancestors came from Germany to America in the ’20s ’cause one day they were beaten up by the Commies & the next by the Nazis.
For that matter, Reconstruction after our Civil War was not an example of Jeffersonian democracy.
And my ancestors from the Emerald Isle never understood that the English had conquered ‘em in the 12th Century. Um, the latest accords in Northern Ireland….
TomCom
One thing that should be constantly pointed out to the Iraqis. They have four choices at this time. (1) A return of Saddam. (2) A Shite Mullah controlled Government, such as Iran. (3) An Al Quaida style Government, such as Afganistan had. (4) A Democracy developed with the United States. They have to make the choice. I suspect that the average Iraqi will choose number 4.
The State Department’s new Arab language youth publication – “Hi” – announces America’s latest secret weapon: Doctor Phil.
http://www.himag.com/articles/article6.cfm?topicId=1picId=1
Winning is very important. And it is important to do it often, and visibly – I got somthing on it right here.
No insurgency won or even came close without outside support. Russia in Viet Nam, the Allies during WW II helping various partisans.
And sanctuaries were needed. Cambodia and North Viet Nam, Yugoslavia during the Greek Civil War, etc.
No outside supplies for Iraqi resistance, and no sanctuaries.
One writer suggested that nations which support and harbor non-national groups such as terrorists erode their own borders.
See Syria’s malleable border with Iraq now.
Bush shows no inclination to allow the bad guys to hop behind a line on a map and make faces at us, which a number of folks in the region must have noticed by now, if they’re lucky.
“No insurgency won or even came close without outside support.”
Santo Domingo slave revolt: of course, they were fighting the French…
Oh, I forgot (as did our sponsor): The “Wanna Go Home Riots”.
After The War in Europe officially ended in May ’45, initially, GIs got to go home on the basis of points. Some who’d served for almost 3 yrs would thereby have to have served ’til sometime in ’46. The Reuther brothers helped start the “Wanna Go Home Riots” in Paris. The girls back home joined in the complaining.
Micro Result: Uncle Ed & a lot of GIs got home for Thanksgiving ’45.
Macro Result: The US didn’t look too resolute in the eyes of Hitler’s Evil Twin, Stalin.
And also, after WW I, there was a clamor to get the boys home ASAP (that term wasn’t in use then, of course). Uncle Ted was held in the service for an extra year & boy, was he p–sed for life. No one was held over any longer. The public was tired of a zillion deaths & didn’t want to hear about Germany’s problems or the Communist thugs in Russia; that could wait for another day. That day was WW II. In the meantinme, Germany & Russia weren’t liberated from tyrany.
TomCom
The State Department’s new Arab language youth publication – “Hi” – announces America’s latest secret weapon: Doctor Phil.
Well at least the answer to the question “Why do they hate us?” will be easier to answer next time.