Courtesy
John Lucaks isn’t happy with the recent tradition of American presidents returning salutes from uniformed military personel:
This unnecessary and unseemly habit was adopted by Mr. Reagan’s successors, including Bill Clinton and especially George W. Bush, who steps off his plane and cocks a jaunty salute.
This gesture is of course quite wrong: such a salute has always required the wearing of a uniform. But there is more to this than a decline in military manners. There is something puerile in the Reagan (and now Bush) salute. It is the joyful gesture of someone who likes playing soldier. It also represents an exaggeration of the president’s military role.
I agree almost completely with Lucaks. The President wears no uniform, is Constitutionally a civilian, and has no business returning offered salutes. A nod of the head in return suffices and is quite proper.
But to accuse Reagan and Bush 43 of being puerile, while giving Clinton a pass?
Oh, please.
Sorry, I have to call you on this one! there are dozens of military regulations regaurding salutes, and the president has to respect none of them, I guess. However, the salute is also a sign of respect. Failing to return a salute is an insult. People who have a problem with the president returning salutes never served in the military, and have no clue what they are talking about. Of the three presidents most recently sworn into ofice, it was Clinton who said he wished he had been a wartime president, though he conspicuously avoided military service himself. Unfortunately, due to his untrained eye, he failed to recognize that he was a wartime president.
Hate to disagree, but I believe (though not well-versed in military protocol) that as the Commander-in-Chief, the President should return salutes; regardless of whether or not he (or she in the future) is wearing a military uniform.
I also think it is appropriate, and a sign of respect for the commander in chief to return a salute.
Gotta go with the Jury on this one. I see it as a sign of respect, and I can’t imagine anyone in the service having a problem with it.
Actually, I’d say Dubya has a pretty sharp salute, for a wing-wiper. And like several of the others, I see nothing wrong with the CinC returning the gesture of respect. More importantly, Bush does it even when he’s not playing to the cameras…
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the President returning salutes offered him.
I suspect the author’s intent was less to argue the fine points of military courtesy than it was to tag two Republican Presidents with the word “puerile.”
And the conspicuously omitted Bill Clinton was, in the end, nothing if not “puerile”: a superficial, self-absorbed, attention-craving lightweight who presided over America’s eight-year vacation from responsibility and who accomplished little beyond getting his knob polished.
I was never in the military, but I’m unsure exactly how Bush is exaggerating his role, he is Commander in Chief of the Military. A specific rank in the military. In the line of command. How do you exaggerate being the commander in chief?
Maybe we should send in a letter to Mail Call.
Maybe the real problem is the scourge of hatlessness that Kennedy visited upon the presidency. A tip of the hat would be a fine civilian response, no?
I don’t really know what I think on this. I understand the protocol, but I also think it’s probably a sign of respect, since in the case of Bush and Reagan, they revere those in the service.
I am curiuos though, what Eisenhower did. If the pres is retired military, what does or did he do. Just curious if anyone knows.
As a former military office, I know I would have been pleased to have the president return my salute.
As the tenor of Lucaks’ comments should clearly indicate to you, he is not worthy of regard in this matter.
Love your stuff, respect you greatly – but you are wrong on this one. The only ‘puerile’ viewpoint here is Lucaks own.
At least RR supported the WWII effort and W did fly jets, although some people don’t think so. That myth was debunked before the 2000 election. While the former panty-snapper-in-chief wasn’t inhaling.
You can tell this dipwad doesnt have a clue when he makes the statement, “It also represents an exaggeration of the president’s military role.” Obviously he’s never been in bootcamp and had to memorize his chain of command. EVERY person in the military remembers the pictures of the chain of command, guess who’s on top? PRESIDENT! I dont understand how you can over exaggerate that.
When Reagan started returning salutes (I’m too young to remember if Presidents prior to Carter did so), I was annoyed. Yes, he’s the Cominch, but he’s a civvie. Then I read an article, which made a couple of points. Before Reagan started returning salutes, he was very uncomfortable when saluted, because he didn’t think he was able to return the salute, but also didn’t want to simply ignore the person saluting him. So he asked the military – not the generals and admirals who are closest to a President, but the Marines guarding the White House doors, the privates and NCOs maintaining Air Force 1, and so on. They all stated that it was appropriate and appreciated for the President to return the salute, since he is in their direct chain of command. (This also applies to the SecDef, though I don’t remember if the article referenced the SecDef in connection to this.)
As far as I’m concerned, if the military prefers it and the President is comfortable with it, then returning a salute is appropriate, even though the President is not in uniform.
FYI, AR-600-25 is the resource for your questions about salutes. Enjoy the site and commentary. A Bombay Man myself although a chilled “Grey Goose” with a spash of tonic and double lime is a nice summer change of pace.
Thank You for your support of the Armed Forces.
Russ
US Army 86-92
TO: Stephen
RE: Salutes
While there is no military regulation regarding whether or not the president of the United States should or should not salute military personnel in uniform who are saluting him, there is only one commander-in-chief of all the armed forces of the United States.
And whereas generals can adapt their uniforms to be whatever they want, within written regulations…
…the president of the United States, in the absence of regulations written to the contrary, can do damn well what he pleases with respect to the respect of those who are sworn to respect his orders.
That’s a personal opinion.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[If it moves, salute it. If it doesn't move, paint it. If you don't know what it is, put a guard on it.]
Steve,
The author also omits one of the more surreal moments of Clinton’s presidency involving a salute: on Bush #43′s inauguration day, after Bush was sworn in as president, Clinton–now an ex-president–inspected and saluted the troops assembled into some sort of “honor guard” in an aircraft hanger after hopping of Marine One, but before getting into Air Force One (which wouldn’t have that call sign of course). Naturally, there were mini-cams to cover it all for TV, thus increasing Clinton’s TV time, even after his term was over. I remember listening to Brit Hume practically choke on his coffee watching it.
Ed
Chuck,
Your signature line is so correct in the military. “[If it moves, salute it. If it doesn't move, paint it. If you don't know what it is, put a guard on it.]”
So right!
Lukacs should have done some research before writing his hate piece….a salute is always to be returned when possible, regardless of the apparel of the individual being so honored….the Commander in Chief is always honored regardless of his apparel…..even when in civilian clothes in a civilian vehicle, one should return the salute tendered by the gate guard unless to do so would be unsafe.
I thought Lukacs leaned to the right? If so, perhaps he held his tongue on Clinton, or the good folks at the NYT drew a line through that paragraph.
FYI, Lukacs is a big Churchill fan.
Gotta disagree w/ you on this one, Stephen.
At West Point, every class session begins when a cadet appointed to be “section marcher” calls the class to attention. That cadet then salutes the professor — military or civilian — and the class remains at attention until the professor gives them permission to sit down.
That custom sets the tone for future Army leaders: in the United States, the military will ALWAYS remember that it retains its professionalism precisely by respecting the high civilian authorities to whom they report. The CINC is in the direct chain of command and returning the salute is appropriate.
I’m ringing in with all the comments above and adding, besides, this POTUS has a commission. Ok, so he made O-2, maybe it’s just nice to return a salute for a change.
Oh please. Queen of England Elizabeth II waves. She is nowhere near as militarily minded as Blair. She waves.
One is sure Michael Jackson, Liz Taylor Michael Parkinson, Princes Diana and Oprah all have or had their own degree of wave/salut
nro ( i think) had a source saying that rr’s questions lead him to say: “I know I shouldn’t do this out of uniform, but i feel bad” and someone (nro names a general) says: “as cinc, your uniform is civvies, so go with it”
ps.. can’t remember from clancy books.. what is pres called in mil? cinc? does he have a cool suffix to cinc? (like CINCPAC, CINCLNATFLT, etc… maybe CINCWORLD or CINCUSFOR)
Hmmmm, I guess it’d be CIC, or Eagle 1 or something. The smaller the suffix the higher the position, in most cases anyway.
So he salutes them. For him it’s a sign of respect he can show those who perform their duty in his service.
And the military doesn’t mind, they know he LIKES and RESPECTS them. Unlike that a@@ Clinton.
From Ronald Reagan.com: http://www.ronaldreagan.com/tradition.html
PRESIDENTIAL TRADITION
I never ceased to enjoy reviewing our men and women in uniform and hope I started a new tradition for presidents. As commander in chief, I discovered it was customary for our uniformed men and women to salute whenever they saw me. When I’d walk down the steps of a helicopter, for example, there was always a marine waiting there to salute me. I was told presidents weren’t supposed to return salutes, so I didn’t, but this made me feel a little uncomfortable. Normally, a person offering a salute waits until it is returned, then brings down his hand. Sometimes, I realized, the soldier, sailor, marine, or airman giving me a salute wasn’t sure when he was supposed to lower his hand. Initially, I nodded and smiled and said hello and thought maybe that would bring down the hand, but usually it didn’t. Finally, one night when Nancy and I were attending a concert at the Marine Corps headquarters, I told the commandant of marines, “I know it’s customary for the president to receive these salutes, but I was once an officer and realize that you’re not supposed to salute when you’re in civilian clothes. I think there ought to be a regulation that the president could return a salute inasmuch as he is commander in chief and civilian clothes are his uniform.” “Well, if you did return a salute,” the general said, “I don’t think anyone would say anything to you about it.”
The next time I got a salute, I saluted back. A big grin came over the marine’s face and down came his hand. From then on, I always returned salutes. When George Bush followed me into the White House, I encouraged him to keep up the tradition.
Courtesy of Simon and Schuster
Bugs Bunny: “what is pres called in mil? cinc? does he have a cool suffix to cinc?”
The President is the Commander in Chief and the only one. Last year, Rumsfeld issued a order that all the services would no longer use CINCPAC or CINCwhatever. There is only one CINC and that is the President.
And yes, it is proper for him to return it.
By the way, this isn’t the first time Lukacs wrote something bizarre in the New York Times. Several years ago, during the controversy over the Superconducting Super Collider (an issue close to me professionally at the time, over which I was quite torn– there were good arguments for and against it), Lukacs wrote a strange NYT op-ed in which he explained that the SSC was a bad idea because all of modern physics was risible nonsense. His primary evidence was that physicists gave particles funny names, which he claimed was evidence that they were engaging in the “medieval superstition of nominalism,” ascribing special powers of understanding to names.
(It actually got me to look up nominalism in the dictionary, and as far as I could tell it meant the opposite of what Lukacs seemed to be implying; Lukacs was himself being nominalistic by saying it was nothing *but* names. But as I am not a philosopher I could be wrong here.)
It turns out that Lukacs has expressed elsewhere a special beef against 20th-century science for describing a world that is not human-centered. He has my apologies, I suppose.
The whole salute thing never bothered me, though I wasn’t alive/cognizant enough to notice it before the Reagan years. I think that in this “hatless” age, it just replaced the FDR-famous “tipping of the hat” to the troops.
I’m open to suggestions about how a President who doesn’t wear headgear can show a token of respect to the grunts who guard him.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but he *is* the head of the military chain of command, and a suit is, for all practical purposes, his uniform.
If I had had the strange chance of fate to meet the POTUS while I was in uniform during my 8 and a half years in the USN, I would certainly have saluted, provided it was someplace where sailors salute (not on a ship underway, with a very very few exceptions, and not indoors.). And giving a salute to someone who is unable to return it is awfully awkward.
The technically correct thing for the pres to do would be a verbal acknowledgement, which is what Navy officers do if they are not in uniform and are saluted by someone who is. (In theory, if you recognize an officer, and you meet the requirements to render a salute, you salute regardless of whether the person receiving the salute is able to give one in return.)
That being said, I think he should salute. I’m afraid you’re on the pier watching the boat leave without you on this one. Saluting is a gesture of respect, and a well rendered salute should never be taken as an insult.
I still say we need a President who wears a hat.
Clancy refers to the President as POTUS, which gets really old after the 20th or so occurrence. I’m not sure if I can recall an instance where he refers to the President as CIC, mostly because it’s easy to confuse with the CIC on a ship.
Another annoying habit of Clancy’s is to refer to characters as their codenames. For example, SURGEON, FLOTUS and Cathy Ryan are the same person referred to with nearly equal frequency by all three appellations.