Left and Right and the Confusion over War in Libya
Here are two quotes from major American politicians, both senators. I offer you a quiz. Two different U.S. Senators are responsible for the quotes. Which Senator said the first quote? Which Senator said the last two?
The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation. As Commander-in-Chief, the President does have a duty to protect and defend the United States. In instances of self-defense, the President would be within his constitutional authority to act before advising Congress or seeking its consent. History has shown us time and again, however, that military action is most successful when it is authorized and supported by the Legislative branch. It is always preferable to have the informed consent of Congress prior to any military action.
2.
I do not agree that under our Constitution the Executive can bring about a state of war without usurpation. He may have the power to get us into war, but he certainly has not the right. The mere fact that his power cannot be disputed in war does not mean that it is constitutional. …I don’t propose to acquiesce in any policy leading directly to war unless it is approved by Congress.
And at another time, this same above senator said the following:
The president had brought “that war about without consulting Congress and without congressional approval…[the fighting was] a complete usurpation by the President of the authority to use the Armed Forces of this country.”
The first, as you probably guessed, is from Barack Obama in 2007. The second quotation is from long ago, from “Mr. Republican,” as Senator Robert A. Taft was called in the 1940s and 1950s. The first Taft quote is from 1941, the second is from his response to Truman’s entry of the U.S. into the Korean War, in 1950. Obama was opposing a Republican’s war; Taft was opposing one led in both cases by a Democrat. Invoking the Constitution, it seems, has its uses by both sides when it seems convenient to invoke it.
You might have guessed, if you have been reading conservative websites, that the second might be from Andrew McCarthy at NRO, if I had not said it was from a politician. McCarthy wrote a few days ago that American combat operations cannot be validated by a vote from the UN Security Council, since “our Constitution vests Congress with the power to declare war. That authority cannot be delegated to an international tribunal that lacks political accountability to the American people.” He added that while the president can authorize the use of our armed forces against an “actual or imminent strike against the United States,” that is not meant as a blank check. Thus “Congress must weigh in and either endorse or put a stop to presidential war-making.”
Thus, in our present day, both Left and Right are thoroughly divided and confused over the nature and meaning of our actions in Libya. Writing today at The New Republic, journalist John B. Judis lays out why he thinks today “the Left Got Libya Wrong.” Recalling how in 1990 all of his friends on the Left opposed the U.S. action after Iraq invaded Kuwait as leading “to another Vietnam” and nothing less than an example of “U.S. imperialism,” Judis expresses dismay that, once again, those on the Left are having a similar response.
Siding instead with the liberal interventionists at his own magazine, Judis talks about the dangers of allowing Gaddafi to retain control of a key oil supply, to sow discord in the region, to stop in its tracks democratization in the Arab world should he win. Judis, like others who condemned Obama for acting too slowly, thinks the president should have stepped in earlier, instead of being “shamed into taking leadership.” He writes:
Obama did the absolutely worst thing — he called for Quadaffi’s ouster, but did not do anything about it, and discouraged others from doing so.
Judis, like other interventionists, hopes that the U.S. will knock out Gaddafi’s troops and help lead the way to a rebel victory. “They have little choice,” he writes, “but to seek Qadaffi’s ouster.” He hopes, without providing much evidence that this will be the case, that Libya will “become part of an experiment in democratization that is now taking place across North Africa.”
As for whether or not Obama should have gone to Congress, Judis says: “I am not sure there was time for a full-scale debate.” Hence, he lines up with what the Left used to call the power of the imperial presidency, the bane of liberals like the late Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr.
And here is further grounds for confusion. Fred Siegel, one of the most astute of political commentators, e-mailed me his take: “I can see why this is in Europe’s national interest; they face both a refugee and an oil supply crisis. But what I can’t see so far is why this in America’s national interest. That said, now that we’re in we need to win — assuming we know what that means.”






“[Clinton] doubtless remembers more clearly than Obama what happened in Bosnia, when her husband took years to approve effective military intervention.”
Oh – you’re referring to that other imbroglio and “manufactured crisis.”
Someday, if we even survive the poisonous Obama era, a “brilliant analyst” may finally take note of the peculiar fact that we have curried favor with the Muslim terrorists for decades yet remained completely confused about his Jihad against us. We are still incompetently fighting their wars, bulldozing mountains of gold from our treasuries into the bulging coffers of Jihad, and have murdered our natural allies and abetted our natural enemies. And still we wonder why its all gone so wrong.
After systematically betraying our foundational precepts, after admitting millions of Muslim enemies into our national precincts, now we wring our hands and throw them in the air, we stare slack-jawed, deep in confusion about how we got to this place…
Somewhere between Reagan and either Bush1 or Clinton1 we lost our fricking minds. I think it began when Bush1 failed to complete Desert Storm and install an America-friendly regime in Iraq. This was augmented by awarding a Jihad mini-state to the Muslim marauders of Yugoslavia in the hopes of pleasing our Muslim enemies. Imbroglio and “manufactured crisis” barely begin to describe that gargantuan misstep in American history. It has been a natural progression from there into all the subsequent Jihad we have witnessed ever since.
We lost our minds the instant Reagan left office. Gulf War I was pointless in and of itself. We should never have had any alliances with, or delivered any assistance to, any Muslim nation, tribe, organization, or individual. They are all bad, without exception, and supporting them is never in US interests.
I have not forgotten that during Bush I’s campaign versus Bill Clinton, he was all gung ho for fighting Serbs on behalf of the Muslims.
Any US politician – and even any journalist – who advocates the US going to war on behalf of any Muslim power is a traitor, and should be treated as such.
Why is congress etc., not jumping up and down saying ‘we did not give you permission”!!!???? are they afraid of Obama???? he just seems to walk all over America and we don’t fight back!!!
Get this man out of office!!! and be darned careful who we put in. We are turning into a nation of mush
Is “mush” a polite word for sewage?
This topic is getting beaten to death at PJM. (What’s happening in Japan?)
This action IS an impeachable offense. But, who, in the present Congress, has the testosterone or hormones, to start proceedings against our first, incompetent, petulant, ethnically disabled, morally challenged, mac-daddy, of a president?
This fool has never been in charge of anything requiring responsibility.
How can you expect anything of rational, emotional, humanistic, philanthropic, intelligent, or just plain sensible, from this completely accommodated failure?
PLEASE!!!!! GIVE US CREDIT FOR A LITTLE MORE INTELLIGENCE
Man – can people not see why it is in America’s interest to get rid of Khaddafi? Seriously? Are they idiots? What does a person need to do to be worthy of being gotten rid of? What do we have a military for? Do they understand anything about the military? Do they even understand what oil supply means? Who are these people? By the grace of what indulgant god do these ignorant, subverted, passive-aggressive 15-yr-old 45 year olds have any voice that I have to listen to, even though it’s not coming from a mouth in the same room as me? Is everything really so mysterious? The same people who were rejoicing over the revolt against Qadafi – as they rejoiced in the revolts against lesser tyrants – and who were anxious that the rebels would lose are now pissed off about American intervention on behalf of those people and rebels and against the vampire Gaddafi? Have I fallen through the Looking Glass, or am I trapped in a room of Willy Wonka’s Chocolate Factory? Did someone slip me acid that lasts 10 years? Could this great country really be full of such complete fucking intellectual and moral idiots?
Did you REALLY have to ask that final question?
Really? That’s what you perceive? Please allow me to disabuse you of this notion.
Khadafi is a tin-pot tyrant, but he backed down when Reagan went after him and killed his kid. When Bush went after 2 Muslim States, Khadafi canceled his nuke program, not wanting to be next. Do I want him gone? If we have a strong President who’ll “reads him from the Good Book”, I do not care if he stays and restrains himself to killing his Muslim citizens.
Would replacing him be good? It is becoming pretty clear that the options truly stink. We have two other choices: the Muslim Brotherhood guy; or the rebels in Benghazi with ties to al-Quaeda. As long as it seemed that there was a chance to replace this regime with a non-fundamentalist regime, there was a glimmer of hope. That hope is now gone.
Of course, now that that hope is dead, THAT’S when Obama decides to act! His actions, as usual, run exactly counter to American interests. He angers both Left and Right. Kucinich AND Paul? Wow. Nice work, doofus!
C. Someone slipped you acid that lasts 10 years.
Stop ranting and get a hold of yourself. Obama should not have authorized that we join the Brits and Frogs on bombing Libya, especially without congressional approval. We have no national interests there. The Brits and Frogs should be able do the job by themselves, against a banana republic dictator. If they can’t, they should join the “turd world nations” club. Much of British and French oil comes from Libya. Libya provides only about 3% of the world’s oil, and none to us. To depose a murderous dictator in Libya, especially when we don’t know what we will get in return (democracy or Islamists?), is not enough reason for us to make war.
Don’t you realize that Obambi is abdicating his authority and office? And he knows that he can rest for the remainder of his term, even if there is a motion to impeach.
Where the hell is he going on his next vacation?
This episode indicates how weak Obama’s core beliefs are: He had the right idea by listening to Sec-Def Gates and others who cautioned regarding our national interests and concern about the rebels’ beliefs. The battle reverses and he listens to the women Powers, Clinton and Rice, authorizes use of force without congress and is planning to subcontract our military to the French and Arab League. And he did it all while on spring break!!!!
I just figured it out! No fly zone. Naval arms embargo. NATO is in the lead, not the US, but Turkey will appose any crusader NATO involvement. Libya is a practice run for doing Iran next! Right?
No, he wasn’t on “spring break”. He was “working” in Brazil, giving away our oil interests to George Soros and the Brazilian people. He guaranteed a $2B loan to Brazil to finance their offshore drilling operations. George Soros is heavily invested in the oil company that will do the drilling. Meanwhile lots of American oil workers along the Gulf coast are without work because the Obama Administration and their green supporters are against offshore drilling.
Sorry, the above comment was to @mikey, above you.
Good work. Hard to see how Obama can face this info in a debate come the run-up to 2012.
I can already predict what he’ll say. It’ll be something along the lines of being a President is a lot different from running for the office.
Yeah, tell us about it. It turned Obama into Bush every full moon.
Absolutely disgusting. America, UK, and all other non-Muslim nations should stay out of this conflict. It is for Muslims only to deal with. Let the Muslims use their great oil wealth, their military and their planes, etc. Let Muslims fight this war if that is what they want.
And who will be the winners? Al Qaeda or the Muslim Brotherhood?
Excellent article. One quibble: I have watched Richard Engel’s reporting for years, and I would not use the expression “first-rate” in the same paragraph, let alone in the same sentence, or, God forbid, in close proximity to his name. I’m not on a mission here, so I won’t explain.
Anyone can see the ambush. Where are the Arab planes?
Not one rifle.
Spindok
Well Ron, you are spot on with your quotes, but where is the uproar?
This whole operation might be a test to see what he can get away with.
Look out for the Live Fire round about 2 or 6 months before the 2012 election.
Anybody who thinks they aren’t gaming that kind of stuff on an active basis is a helpless fool.
Hussein is right on target with his primary goal: bring down America, in every way possible: economy, reputation, morale. He is a hater along with his hitlerite mentors Farrakhan and Wright. It’s so amazing that half the American people still support him according to the stats on realclearpolitics.com… America seems to have gone off its rocker: now you have people on the right justifying this illegal war by recalling Qadaffi’s terror acts from decades ago, but what does that have to do with the current Arab world’s revolutions? Answer: nothing. Americans need to wake up and slay the federal monster before they go down into oblivion…
Ron, your title to this essay uses the correct term; “Confusion”.
The “confusion” is all in Obama’s head. Can you imagine what an unprepared statement would sound like from our “President”?
Read comment #17 at PJM article “America Through the Looking Glass”,
http://pajamasmedia.com/victordavishanson/america-through-the-looking-glass/
by Victor Davis Hanson, for an idea of what it would sound like.
Only the Left is confused. Obama is doing something they abhor. Even they can see obama morph into Super-Bush. They are deeply conflicted. Even they cannot whitewash this. They cannot, because their hearts aren’t in it. Even their attempts to justify it, or blame the right somehow, simply lack any conviction.
The Right is not confused, but they are just wrong. “Now that we are in it, we should focus on winning.” BS! We should stop now. This would be a great time to stop. The Arab league has stated that this is not what they wanted. “Okay, we’ll stop now. What, exactly, do you want us to do?” It is the perfect out.
If we,as a Republic, resolve to go to war, then we should prosecute the war to its fullest. However, this was a unilateral action by our President. We are NOT obligated to support this in any way. Not at all.
Begin impeachment proceedings. Even if you fail, it must be attempted. It MUST! The legal grounds could not be more clear! What are you waiting for, Congress? Fiery letters in the sky?!?
Bring the issue into focus, or the next President could do the same thing, whether Dem or Pub. You won’t be able to fight it then, because he’ll get to point at this and show the hypocrisy. Then, we won’t get substance in a future discussion of this. We’ll get finger-pointing and name-calling. This is the one chance to get bi-partisan support. Kucinich (D) and Paul (R) are already calling for it.
Even if you fail, you must try! You are certainly no believer in the Constitution, if you don’t!
There. The gauntlet is down.
Doesn’t the President have at least 60 days before he has to go to Congress? Meghan Kelly claimed tonight that “it wasn’t right, BUT Presidents have been doing this for forty years.” She also cited Truman’s going into Korea with the UN mandate.
In other words, I think that you are completely overreacting with this impeachment talk. It may be an odd decision, but that’s why we have a CIC, isn’t it?
You could introduce a bill to stop the commitment, but impeachment? C’mon.
It is 90 days.
The President is actually only CiC in times of war. Only Congress can declare war. Only Congress can start a war. Only the President can end the war. Congress can defund the war, or IMPEACH.
There is no funding for this war. He is requiring the military to redirect resources allocated by law to other purposes. This is illegal, too.
The President is specifically empowered to act in the face of an imminent attack, or in certain situations on the high seas (piracy, et al).
Impeachment? No, I am not going too far. This is a gross usurpation of Congress’ authority by the President. If they do not try to impeach, there will be no restraining future Presidents.
Even the President must be held accountable to the law. Especially the President. This one has gone rogue. We must try to rein him in, or we have an Emperor, not a President.
Dwight, you’re a Lefty, but even you must see the danger in this to your side. What if a Pub gets into office and does the same? Then what?
Marc, C’mon, the mentality that pushes you to mention impeachment is what keeps you guys marginalized. Lawrence and Meghan Kelly have pointed out some of the precedent here, but what you see is red meat dangling from a stick and you can’t help drooling.
For the 100th time, the reason that it is difficult to take many posters here seriously, is that they slip easily into anti-Obama epithets and expostulations, probably something to do with the melding of the internet and Scotch-Irish tradition. When you are around these people in person, you can pick up some money making bets and getting odds from those who have to back up their talk with money, or else backing down. Yes, they may try to start a fight to wriggle off the hook, or just because that is what they do, but, hey, it is part of this country’s wonderful diversity.
We have wandering minstrels such as Mr Lucky who can zero in on supposed internet poseurs such as I, ignoring the purity of my motives (and logic) because they have a different agenda.
Seriously, drop the impeachment talk, and I, for one, will take YOU a bit more seriously.
Yeah, a very serious case of Ping Pong Tongue…
“…what you see is red meat dangling from a stick and you can’t help drooling.”
“…Meghan Kelly…”
“…the purity of my motives…”
“…those who have to back up their talk with money…”
“…fight to wriggle off the hook…”
“…the mentality that pushes you…”
Of course D-White, these will make for great Death Metal lyrics, for you new 8-track tape to be sold at midnight on Beltane 2012. So good to see that Red Pencil Neck tongue lashing of all who might propose something disapproved of, released for… consumption.
What the hell, some random D-White witticisms.
The crush unrequited, like a reverse Down in the Boondocks –
38. Dwight
“I am fascinated by Alaska, but not quite so much by her any more. It’s like she works at sounding like a hick.”
October 20, 2010 – 5:14 am
And a lot more -
The “real” Pick It Fence BUT bares its, what, soul? No kidding –
72. Dwight
“I will plead guilty to being a flawed human being who has to make many decisions hoping that they are the right ones, but in any case, knowing that I will have to live with the consequences.”
January 30, 2011 – 5:47 am
Live.
This is a really good “huge” one!
Dwight
“It’s not a huge deal to me, but I’d like to see conclusive evidence that that is Boehner’s natural skin color. If I am wrong I will admit it, but that is an artifically tanned or colored face to my eye.
Or maybe I’m wrong on that.”
January 8, 2011 – 7:15 am
D-White’s “gripping” ad on SomeList –
52. Dwight
“I voted for Obama, but knew that he was just another guy…”
“Evidently, a preponderance of you guys and gals are a bunch of frantic drama queens, creating a non-stop soap opera about the guy.”
“…but you revel in telling these stories to each other around the campfire. This could be the end of western civilization as we know it, blah, blah. Get grip, but then, that might be too boring.”
“Obama is just a small piece of it.”
February 23, 2011 – 8:29 pm
The Birkenstocked Rebel With a Cause talks about you know who –
12. Dwight
“Have you checked out Jesus as one source?”
“Lefties may not even believe in God, but have had a revelation that the government should try to do what Jesus says (and be “sensitive,” except around righties.) God’s revelations come in strange ways, eh?”
December 14, 2010 – 5:41 am
A hungry New England tweed refugee English teacher cries out for understanding. And gives pension assurance details –
Dwight
“Anyway, do you have anything to put on the table here, or just want to be jealous of my estate with its barbed wire, guard dogs, surv. cameras, and ten-year supplies of sunlight, moonlight, and do-right?”
October 29, 2010 – 11:08 am
500mcgs of pure Modern Liberalism will do this –
Dwight
“Can you cite ONE time when Obama has said, ‘they are against me because I am black’”
July 27, 2010 – 1:36 pm
And you say, “Impossible”
As he hands you a bone.
I am impressed when you go back to the dusty files as is your wont, for fragments of the collected works. Do you have daily recitations, possibly hymns thereof at the Lucky-dome? Is it a solo, or a whole chorus? I am deeply touched.
Sure D-White. How lame will you go, dear “Centrist”? History is only for that which you deem necessary to support the now so obvious left leaning Pick It Fence BUT Dogma.
Mr. President will certainly look good now, better than the model you have been advertising. Just think, no one can show facts beyond the Birkenstocked Red Pencil Neck imposed time line. Mr. President will be free of himself, much the same state you desire for the Ping Pong Tongue.
You could say, a “no time zone” of sorts. Bring in the tweed F-15s and smoke ‘um! Yeah, really, an appropriate use of imaginary force. Modern Liberals like that. Like playing house or doctor or army with other people’s lives. Thing is D-White, Modern Liberals aren’t good anymore at imagining either.
What are they good at?
To get you facts
When someone attacks your imagination
But nobody has any respect
sitting here listening to news talking head after t.h. trying to figure out why are we doing bla bla bla.
still trying to avoid logical thinking if you ask me. once you look at el presidente as a wanna be dictator, and what does this action mean toward that objective, you will understand why he goes out of country and orders the military to bomb amother country.
military kinda getting used to taking orders to bomb and make illegal war?
$pending boy was about to get cut off. now that is page 27 news? $$$$ continues, just stepped up a notch.
going around and minimizing congress. they are qickly becoming a non-entity. not many backbones there.
foreign military giving orders to our military?
el prez, n.a.t.o. & u.n. sending us into war, w/o asking anybody? 1984 anyone?
he sends the world into further turmoil while on vacation. what does he care? the more tired of war we become, the less likely to revolt?
what will this fool do when he loses in late 2012 and becomes a lame duck?
God help us all if we can’t get this maniac out of that office soon. he and gadaffi have a lot in common.
It is going to be hard to show that the Libyan action is unconstitutional, because the Constitution is vague and laconic on the issue. However there are serious responsible grounds for impeaching Obama because of the Libyan action. A president may be impeached for high misdemeanors. When does negligence become a high misdemeanor? When it threatens the republic. Is that happening? Yes.
Obama has artfully raised neglect to a tactic, central to his methods and strategy. He has never been punished for negligence. The ignorance of Jeremiah Wright’s sermons (when convenient) is an example of neglect as a useful tactic. However the Libyan action is a combination of neglect and aggression against the USA, and it is a high misdemeanor.
The US Govt budgets for 2011 and for all subsequent years are extremely negligent. They are careless, reckless and feckless. In Fiscal 2011 the US govt is budgeted to spend $175.70 for every $100.00 it receives in taxes. Moreover the US Govt has run a deficit every year since 2000, and it is never budgeted to run a surplus. This is ruinous for the republic. The action in Libya is not budgeted, so it must be entirely financed by borrowing – ie taxes in the future. Now the action in Libya is to protect the Libyan people. The UN resolution makes that clear. Obama has said that it is for the benefit of the US but he cannot show how, because it is not true. The US is not harmed because the Libyan people are harmed, any more than Stalin or Mao harmed the US when they killed their people. Only in the world of spirit is everything connected. To smash the US economy for a putative spiritual benefit is a high misdemeanor, because in the world of spirit there is no USA.
Obama chose to act in Libya after deliberation, contemplation, consideration, calculation, consultation, debate and thought. It was not reckless, careless, feckless. The combination of his care for the Libyans and his abuse of the Americans are not two different things. It is one misdemeanor. It is intolerable for the USA. The degradation and exhaustion of the American economy by excessive debt reduces the ability of the nation to fight against a foreign aggressor in the future, and to recover after an attack on the nation .
Obama does this too often. The Libyan action may soon be over but the combination of affection for foreigners and passive aggression against the USA is permanent. The border with Mexico is not secure against Iran’s jihadis. Obama has shown hostility to the idea of securing the border. If, say, in 2017 or 2028 the Iranians assemble and detonate a nuclear device in the USA it will be because they came across the Mexican border with Obama’s help.
We should impeach Obama as soon as possible to save America.
There are some real taboo issues to resolve.
The constitutional requirement in Article I, Section 8, Clause 11, “Congress shall have the power…to declare war…” has become unusable in the modern era.
The ideological right-wing and left-wing of US politics may believe in Article I, Section 8. The great majority of elected representatives, of both parties, do not believe in the utility of Article I, Section 8. The Supreme Court has relatively little to say about war powers.
The constitutional violations have been extraordinary since post WWII. They can not be easily resolved in the short term. The proposed impeachment of the President is a propaganda exercise, at best. It is really surrealistic that the Commander-in-Chief is currently on a good will trip to Latin America.
It is obvious, for all to see, that the Executive branch has utterly defeated congressional power when it comes to modern war and peace.
Maybe, Justice Scalia will be asked to address the freshman Teaists on this constitutional problem, at their next lecture.(Don’t bet on it!)
We could ask the Representative responsible for reading Article I, Section 8, at the beginning of this Session, about its meaning. (Don’t count on an answer.)
This section of the Constitution is utterly dysfunctional.
Not dysfunctional at all. The original wording was not declare war. It was wage war. The Founders purposely split up the powers of making war. It requires a marriage of Congress and the Executive to make war. Congress has to authorize it, and the President must sign off on it. Once war is authorized, then only the President can call it off, and he is CiC during time of war. This is so Congress cannot meddle in the daily running of the war, like the Continental Congress did. The only recourse Congress then has is de-funding the war, and impeachment.
Dividing the power made it so the nation has to come together to make war and no one can do it alone, nor shirk responsibility for it to the people. It was also to prevent an Imperial Presidency, and such Presidents seeking war for their own glory.
“The President is actually only CiC in times of war. Only Congress can declare war. Only Congress can start a war. Only the President can end the war.
congress can defund the war, or IMPEACH.” Marc
“The original wording was not declare war. It was wage war.”
Marc: All well and good, Marc. But it has not been functional since WWII. That means it is dysfunctional. It doesn’t work as intended, not in Korea, not with Vietnam, etc. etc. etc.
“Not dysfunctional at all.” You are living in a dream world.
Actually, the original wording was “make war’. Sorry.
Dysfunctional? Only because folks accept the breaking of the rules when they support the purpose of it.
Many Presidents have pushed the envelope on this, even Reagan. Grenada was not sanctioned by Congress, but Reagan relied on his authority based on “imminent danger” to US citizens, an arguable case, even if dishonest. Efforts in Honduras were never even reported to Congress, as reqired by the War Powers Act of 1973.
Truman got us into Korea, but got Congressional approval for his “police action”.
Polk got us the Mexican-American War.
I think it was Teddy Roosevelt who provoked the Spanish-American war.
The problem is not that it is dysfunctional, but rather, that Congress is dysfunctional. They want to always be on the winning political side. They do not want to commit until they see how it plays out. They do not want to be held responsible for taking a position one way or another. They let the President do these things, so they cannot be held responsible. It is supposed to be a joint effort. It is supposed to require a marriage of President and Congress to take us to war.
The Founders never envisioned career politicians like we have today. Our Founders fought and won an impossible war. 8 of them were caught and hanged by the King. Most survivors were bankrupted. At the Battle of Saratoga, the Brits were using one of the Founders’ house as HQ, and Washington was avoiding shelling it. The owner sidled up to Washington and said, “George, shell the house.” It was his last possession. He would be ruined. He sold himself down the river for his country. Today’s pusillanimous “leaders” sell their country down the river for themselves. Our Founders had spine, and they could not imagine such out-and-out poltroons and traitors as we have today.
“Our country was meant for a moral people. It is wholly unsuited to any other.”
The Constitution is not dysfunctional. The people are.
George Washington was NOT at the Battle of Saratoga; Gates and Arnold were, fighting like hell with each other the whole time, setting up Arnold’s (who fought heroically in the battles on the first day, and weeks later on the deciding day) eventual “treachery.” So of course the Founders knew about the vicissitudes of human nature. The Federalists believed that a powerful central government was necessary, the Anti-Federalists feared what that would become, but lost that Battle. Madison and Hamilton said that the Constitution would provide the necessary check on the powers of the Federal Government, the Anti-Federalists said that it wouldn’t, and demanded that a Bill of Rights be added, which it was the next year. They also spent a lot of time arguing if one representative FOR EVERY THIRTY THOUSAND PEOPLE was the way to go.
That John Adams quote makes for a catchy line to throw into the mix when the discussion is about how we are going to hell, but back then the Federal Government was essentially broke, the country was weak, and they were just making it up as they went along. Imagine if they had had the internet then!
“…demanded that a Bill of Rights…”
Gee D-White, can you count to ten?
Why don’t you make yourself useful and find out how many of the state nominating conventions suggested the right to bear arms as one of the Amendments. Inquiring minds want to know. Contribute something.
Classic. Control. Bulging Red Pencil Neck.
D-White, pull up the map covering part of the blackboard and take a look.
Oh, that “does not apply” 10th amendment…
“…and they were just making it up as they went along.”
You have many contacts
Among the lumberjacks
To get you facts
Who is Obama ‘taking his orders from’? Seriously, who is pulling the President’s strings? It seems he ‘stalls’ and ‘stalls’ (dithers) on issues, then all of a sudden BOOM he makes a decision… Is our Leader of the free world really THAT indecisive?? Or is ‘someone’ whispering in his ear… And Why is America – Never ‘First’ anymore?
In the Case of Libya, he stalled and stalled, then without even consulting with the U.S. Congress, Boom! The no fly zone is in effect – we are on our way to save the day! No one knows anything more than that… No Objective?? No game plan?? AND our Military will ‘be under the command’ of a foreign commander? Are we now effectively working inside “The New World Order”?? The ‘world’ is setting the tone for how the United States is to act or not act in situations like this ?? Not consulting with Our Congress? Especially when the US is not directly threatened by an enemy? Constitution? What Constitution?
When has the United States ‘ever’ waited for a ‘World Consensus’ before we attacked another country who posed a threat to the United States? [OR] In the case of Iraq, we attacked an oppressive, violent, crazy leader Hussen who was killing his own citizens? The US didn’t wait for a world consensus for this monster, and no, it didn’t work out as planned, but that is not the point. The “world consensus’ put us in this position. Imaginary or not, the US will get blamed for any and all civilian killings in Libya… another excuse to hate us….AND the NEW QUESTION (?) – Just who are the Rebels? Who exactly are we defending? Who are these people? Are they for or against us (when we are not helping them)? Are we defending other terrorists?
Obama has a lot of splainin’ to do when he gets back from “vacation”. People of America want answers… we do not want another WAR!
Personally, I don’t want (an) oppressive leader(s) killing their own citizens. However, there are plenty of Middle East countries who have a Military. Who have money. Who “claim” they are peaceful, want peace and claim they are Saintly. Why is the question not asked to the other ME countries – Why are ‘they’ not helping those who are oppressed why aren’t ‘they’ fighting ‘for peace’ since this is what the “claim” they are all about… Oh, wait, silly me, that was a really, really dumb question.
Seriously, why is the United States always coming to the Aid of people who hate us? This is very frustrating…
Quite frankly, although I do not agree with this group, in this one instance, I understand what Medina of Code Pink says…that the people of ‘said’ country have to fight for their own freedom themselves…United States cannot keep doing it for them…
I’m not confused. This country is full of problem-solvers who could have done an assessment and proposed solutions in a matter of hours or days, weeks ago.
My field is programming, and there are simple and obvious methods that would apply here, or most any where. Roughly, define the problem and desired solution, determine if solution is possible as defined, define inputs and outputs and available methodology, & cost analysis (is solving the problem, presuming that is possible, so expensive it isn’t worth it). There’s more to it, but people do it every day all across the country.
But obviously not our gov, this is a PR adventure, aimed at polls and votes, etc. People may differ on many of the above, as applied to Libya, but who can differ on the notion that implementing half-baked and poorly considered measures makes sense by any standard?
Our track record of nation building since WW II. No Hit’s No Runs and way
to many errors..