“One of the great follies in legislative history.” That’s how John Hinderaker at Powerline describes the bait-and-switch — I mean the cap and trade — bill that is due to be voted on in the House of, er, Representatives imminently.
As with the 1000-page non-stimulating stimulus bill that Obama shoved down your throat mere days after he assumed office, this bill will go largely unread by the people you elected to (among other things) oversee the country’s finances responsibly. Let me mention that bill’s sponsors, Henry A. Waxman and Edward J. Markey, are up for re-election in 2010, something the readers in California and Massachusetts will want to think about when they wake up to what the bill would mean to them. (Note to readers: don’t forget about ThrowTheBumsOut.Org.) As Hinderaker points out, if enacted, the Waxman-Markey climate confusion bill would “create a convoluted federal bureaucracy that would control key sectors of the economy and of our lives.”
Hinderaker posts this informative graphic created by Minority Leader John Boehner, showing in schematic format some of the mischief that would follow in the wake of this piece of expensive legislative folly.
I said “expensive legislative folly.” The Wall Street Journal has something to say about both the folly and the expense. The folly:
The whole point of cap and trade is to hike the price of electricity and gas so that Americans will use less. These higher prices will show up not just in electricity bills or at the gas station but in every manufactured good, from food to cars. Consumers will cut back on spending, which in turn will cut back on production, which results in fewer jobs created or higher unemployment. Some companies will instead move their operations overseas, with the same result.
Really, this bill should be called the decapitate and strangle bill, because what it would do is systematically hobble the U.S. economy by starving it of affordable energy. Why? Because of a misplaced faith in the virtue of using less energy. It’s a version of spiritual smugness like that emitted by eastern yogi, health nuts, and other graminivorous bipeds who believe that the extent of their asceticism is a reliable index of their enlightenment.
Waxman cites a misleading number from a preliminary analysis conducted by the Congressional Budget Office estimating that the bill would cost the average household a mere $175 a year. Cheap to save the planet and give yourself a daily pat on the back, what? But as the Journal points out the real cost is likely to be $1,870 a year for a family of 4 in 2010, a figure that rises to $6,800 by 2035 as various restrictions take effect.
I heard someone point out that this will cost Hospitals to pay more for energy. Of course, that will then drive up medical costs, because someone has to pay for it. never fear, all part of dear leaders plan to destroy our health care system.
if only congress had to be subject to everything they foist on us.
Cap&Trade is a form of economic protectionism (something Obama said he would never engage in). India and China will be forced into Cap&trade because thier products would be deemd “dirty” by the environ-mentalia. Eventually all trading nations will be forced into cap&Trade. And yes, it’s going to cost jobs. When the cost of everything rises, people lose their jobs.
Cap & Tax could turn this recession into a full blown depression. What will the Democrats want after the damage is done? Raise even more taxes & expand the government further. All I see is one huge backlash for the Obamabots in the Obama Administration including the Democrats carrying Obama’s water. A monsoon will sweep them out to sea & never be heard from again called the American voter & the Tea Parties…
Going south. Real estate prices will sky rocket in the south. Buy now support the cap and trade.
Have you ever tried to live without heat or electricity in the Northeast?
This is what they wanted when they voted for the “one”.
Cap’n tax is a sin tax is an indulgence. The Catholic Church paid dearly for being in that business. When are we going to learn that we can’t tax our way to virtue by selling indulgences?
The cap and traitors in congress need to be told in no uncertain terms that their political career will be capped and they will be traded for someone who is not a traitors.
Responding to Republicans who have said a cap-and-trade bill could cost thousands of dollars a year for the average family, the Democratic sponsors of the bill are citing a new study from the Congressional Budget Office that they say shows their plan will be affordable.
“For the cost of about a postage stamp a day, all American families will see a return on their investment as our nation breaks our dependence on foreign oil, cuts dangerous carbon pollution and creates millions of new clean energy jobs that can’t be shipped overseas,” Rep. Edward Markey said in a June 22, 2009, press release jointly issued with the co-sponsor, Rep. Henry Waxman.
Waxman and Markey, from California and Massachusetts respectively, are the authors of a bill that would set up a market for power companies and other polluters to buy and trade carbon credits. The goal is to force them to cut their harmful emissions and lower carbon pollution 83 percent by 2050. But critics say polluters will inevitably pass the cost of buying credits or cleaner technologies on to the consumer.
Putting a pricetag on such a complex plan is tricky and controversial, as we note today in our article Your Guide to the Cap-and-Trade Estimates. The Heritage Foundation, a conservative think-tank, says that cap-and-trade could raise the average family’s annual energy bill by $1,241. House Republicans have said that cap-and-trade could cost consumers up to $3,100, a figure they say came from a Massachusetts Institute of Technology report. But the writers of that report admonished the GOP for incorrectly interpreting their work; intially, the authors predicted it would cost consumers about $340 annually, and have since updated that estimate to $800.
Waxman and Markey are relying on a June 19 Congressional Budget Office analysis of their bill. The CBO is a well-respected, independent arm of Congress, but we have found its findings are occasionally mischaracterized by members of Congress. So we wanted to check whether Waxman is correctly summarizing the CBO’s findings.
Indeed, the report cited by Markey and Waxman predicts the bill would have a net annual economywide cost of $22 billion — or about $175 per household — in 2020. Divide that number by 365 days, and you get about 48 cents. A first-class stamp costs 44 cents, so Waxman is close.
The CBO’s estimate includes several assumptions about important decisions that still must be made by Congress, such as how much energy companies will pay to buy and trade polluting credits. But it’s worth reading the fine print on this one, because CBO notes that the actual cost per family will vary depending on income. For example, low-income consumers could expect to save $40 a year, while wealthy people will see a net increase for energy costs of $235 to $340 every year. And the analysis does not include the costs or benefits of other parts of the bill, such as government efforts to quickly develop new technology, wrote CBO director Douglas Elmendorf in a June 20 blog post.
It’s also important to note that the costs will vary year to year. As the bill stands, polluting allowances will initially be given away for free. But by 2035, about 70 percent of those allocations will be sold by the government. Supporters of the bill say federal revenue from the program would be used to pay for tax credits and rebates for the middle class.
CBO chose 2020 as a milestone for its analysis because it’s a point at which the program would have been in effect for eight years, giving the economy and polluters time to adjust. But had CBO chosen a later date, the cost per family may have been higher because the government would gradually be charging polluters more.
Waxman and Markey are clear about these variables and omissions in their press statement. They note that the poorest people will gain from the bill, and point out that the study does not include every element that could contribute to cap-and-trade’s cost.
But critics are more skeptical of the report. By not including all variables, the CBO report “grossly underestimates costs of cap-and-trade,” said a memo from the Heritage Foundation, which has published many articles opposing the proposal. Among other things, Heritage says the study is flawed because it doesn’t address economic changes resulting from restricted energy use and potential job losses.
For this Truth-O-Meter item, we are not addressing which study is best, but focusing on whether Markey correctly described the CBO’s findings. He was close — off by just 4 cents — and he indicated it was an approximation because he said “about a postage stamp a day.” So we find the statement True.
Update on grab/smash otherwise known as the algore/george soros scheme to destroy capitalism and make themselves billionaires at our expense. Nasty the Bolshevik Bitch has 212 votes and needs 7 more. Apparently the Bolshevik Bitch is trying to get 7 REPUBLICANS to go there way. Id like to find out who and REMIND them who THEY WORK FOR. Not for the botox queen Bolshevik Bitch Piglosi or disgusting Harry Greed, but for WE THE TAXPAYERS.
We do not have an administration that is interested in stimulating the recovery of our traditional capitalist economy.
We have an administration controlled by dedicated radical socialists of the Alinsky stripe, fully committed to take full advantage of the early days of Democrat euphoria to jam through as much capitalism-destroying legislation and changes to our Constitution as possible, and to a degree that will make reversal impossible.
There is no concern about the impact of costs on the business and industrial complex, or on citizens. CHANGE is what they promised, change is what you voted for, change is what your getting – and will continue to get.. The rest of the world has gone over to socialism: they are going to make the U.S.A. the world leader in socialism, and Obama is their Prophet.
Until the realization sinks into our electorate that this is the course that the Supreme Prophet has chosen for us, this is what he promised, the audacity of his hope will be our destiny. The sooner outrage sets in, the better. Roll up your sleeves!
“For the cost of about a postage stamp a day, all American families will see a return on their investment as our nation breaks our dependence on foreign oil, cuts dangerous carbon pollution and creates millions of new clean energy jobs that can’t be shipped overseas,” Rep. Edward Markey said in a June 22, 2009, press release jointly issued with the co-sponsor, Rep. Henry Waxman.
Back when they were passing Medicare over 40 years ago, everyone was told that the program would cost “about a cup of coffee a day”. This was in the days when a cup of coffee cost about 25 cents. They predicted that the program would cost $6 billion a year by 1990. The cost was over $100 billion. It’s costing several hundred billion dollars a year today. Even factoring in inflatin and things like fru-fru Starbucks brands, that’s an expensive cup of coffee.
Sure, cap & trade might cost “about a postage stamp a day”. Today, that’s 42 cents a day, or $153.30 a year. Is that each of us, totaling over $600 a year tax increase for a family of four? Or they could just use this as an excuse to raise the price of stamps…
Obama claimed that only the top 5% would see their taxes increase. Anyone gullible enough to believe that blatant lie deserves whatever they get.
Ain’t gonna happen. The Chinese are holding a lot more cards than Teh One. What’s going to happen instead is that more and more of the American industrial base will move to China and other non-cap countries, including higher technology manufacturing. The hollowing of the US economy will accelerate.
The US isn’t the only market in the world.
#9-”the shadow” -in 1965 the CBO told the american public medi care would cost the taxpayer 9 billion/yr by 2000. The real cost turned out to be over 200 billion about 25 TIMES what our geniuses in govt told us. So take your BS figures the communists Markey and Waxasshole put out there and shove them in your piehole. Barney the Fag might believe that bs, but dont spread it in here. History calls folks like you quislings or traitors.
So what is the Republican solution to global warming?
That’s right: pretend it doesn’t exist.
I hope you’re all listening to cspan and what the dems are up to and I hope you are calling your reps now and any reps to tell them to kill this awful bill. Waxman is a joke! “”"”Clean energy and security act” is a joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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As Roger notes above, 44 percent of our people do not pay Federal income taxes. This bill gives those making 150% or less of the baseline poverty level a direct deposit refund, of an amount “to be determined.” That’s a fine way to insure your vote far into the future.
Everything this administration has been doing has been over-reaching and I believe destructive to America. Increasing unemployment, increasing taxes, removal of freedoms, and almost seems to be an intentional drive to destroy America. At this point it almost makes sense to let this goverment drive us into the ditch. When this Democratic Party control evaporates in the next year and a half, We the American People should take a page out of the Democratic Party doctrine of vindictiveness. If even one dollar, other than their income, ends up in the pocket of a Senator or Congressman or President they should be charged with Treason.
Obama and the Congress are determined to emulate all the programs in the world that have caused the most damage to those countries taht they come from.
**Out-of-Control Spending is destroying this economy.
**Health care to reform to emulate countries where the people have the least access to the care they need.
**Green Economy reforms to emulate the system in Spain (where they are experiencing more than 18% unemploymnent).
**Imigration reform defined as making illegal aliens and their extended families legal citizens….which will increase the unemployed population searching for already limited jobs, increased healthcare uninsured, etc….
Hey Boris (#15): Here is my response: Global warming is solid male cattle excrement, and is nothing more than an excuse for warmed over socialists to try and retard the economic growth of the west in order to bring those economies “back to the pack” in terms of fairness.
According to most astronomers and cosmologists the sun has entered a cooling phase and global temperatures are actually dropping.
So, there’s my response. You want my response to Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny as well?
About a month ago, I heard Waxman reference the UN’s IPCC (intergovernmental panel on climate control) report as the basis & rationale for this bill.
He did it rather glibly (no, don’t need to read the thing either, can hire a speed reader FOR THAT)
I found it mind boggling at that time that such sweeping legislation is grounded in a highly controversial report out of the UN, some scientists, as I recall, refused to append their names to the IPCC report.
As for Obamacare, the cost will be huge, there will STILL be millions of Americans not covered. Sounds like the Porkulus, spend a trillion, get little or nothing.
Why don’t they just give each uninsured/unemployed person a million dollars, it would probably be more cost effective?
This legislative agenda, ramming this stuff through, seems to be completely out of control.
“The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under
the name of ‘liberalism’ they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened.” Norman thomas
cap and trade will take our jobs overseas…call your reps now…
#15 Boris: it doesn’t. The Earth has been cooling since 2000.
theres a storm coming. get ready.
As long as those driving this carriage cast a blind eye towards the damage inflicted upon the
third world by this: http://www.nytimes.com/cwire/2009/06/24/24climatewire-possible-plan-for-tariffs-on-imports-from-ch-25103.html
then, is it surprising to see them as blind as a bat in regards to this.
For these “honourable” people have already made up their minds about “The Great Climate Warming Swindle”, even before seeing it.
#23…we agree with you..
Prepare folks, you asked for it by Not acting like this country belongs to you..
ha! cap and trade..gonna make Gore rich, the bill has NOT BEEN READ~~~but!! it’s being voted on and is said to be b.s. , but it’ll make him rich and your jobs will be outsourced…just sit back and watch, and get ready to scrape for a living..All the programs they are wanting have already failed in other countries..miserably failed…
Scientists have tried to tell Gore and the kids that we are in global cooling.. Gore and the kids have such a loud voice, and nobody is listening anyway….yep…gonna be a storm..
I’m listening to Boehner on CSPAN right now on the floor, reading excerpts of this. All I can say is unbelievable. Jaw-on-ground unbelievable.
http://c-span.org/Watch/C-SPAN_wm.aspx
Are you watching cspan? Minority leader is reading part of it. good grief, it is a nightmare:
http://c-span.org/Watch/C-SPAN_wm.aspx
Check out David Horowitz’s site “discover the networks”. Research George Soros & his “OSI” (Open Society Institute). Everything on Soros’ agenda is exactly what Obama has promised to do & is implementing at breakneck speed before the American public catches on. You’ll all see many connections…
I agree the government is saying one thing, and doing another. It has been going on long enough for us to be in hock to CHICOMMS. It is called seling out to special interests.
In a few years, those that pushed this next step of the NWO will have $2,000,000 a year jobs. Most likly at green energy companys.
Treason is what I call it.
Boorish, your non-arguments, like #15 above, have been annihilated, here and elsewhere, on an almost countless number of different occasions (like the time Willis Eschenbach had you crying and stammering like a baby at Rank Exploits, or when the thin man handed you your ass on Watts Up With That); and every time the rubber hits the road, it’s bye-bye Boorish. The fact that you’re still framing the issue in terms of “Republicans and Democrats” is, to say the least, indicative. Don’t you even know yet that they’re two sides of the same penny, you fool?
The answer to your question, granting you even your catastrophic climate change scenario, is, as usual: technological problems require technological solutions, and capital (as opposed to taxation) is what generates technology. Capital is the lifeblood of progress. Don’t you even know that?
And would you really have us all believe that the state is better equipped than we ourselves to regulate our lives, to regulate trade, to regulate commerce and industry? Would you have us all believe that the economy is best determined not by the free-market and the voluntary exchange of goods and services, but by bureaucratic decree and rule by special interest?
Would you have us believe that we each do not possess the inalienable right to our own property, which includes the corollary freedom to trade that property?
And would you have us believe that centralized power is the proper way to deal with “global warming”? That pollution and waste disposal require not technological solutions but coercive intervention, and that laissez-faire capitalism, with its vast technological superiority (via the profit motive), should be replaced by bureaucratic control? Did Natasha teach you that, you lackey?
Don’t you even know that when private property rights are fully recognized, businessowners have incentives to pollute as little as possible — whereas government officials have no such incentives at all? Don’t you know that pollution is caused by a lack in savings and investment, and that as long as the capital base of any society remains primitive, the means to deal with societal issues necessarily remains limited?
How, then, are you going to lecture us on “Republicans” and “global warming” when you don’t even have the most rudimentary grasp of this? Of economics? Of the immanent and inalienable nature of rights?
Do us all (yourself included) a favor: go throw your cheesy, half-assed comments in over at Real Climate and Climate Progres, where you can all give each other high-fives and great big slaps on the back, and spare us here the banality.
I’m asking nicely.
In California, Mr Waxman is up for re-election eventually. He’ll be hard to beat – he’s always won by about 70% to 30%, and he’s in the heavily Democratic Los Angeles district. But we shuld try anyway.
Markey has been in (in Massachusetts) since 1976, and he’ll be hard to beat, too. But we really shuld remind the MA voters that he’s the guy that tried to cripple the country, whenever he comes up for re-election.
Fabricating an inconvient truth is perjury. Making it an extortion by law and penality is a high crime. Junk science is malfeasance. Congress can not even guarentee that they read the bill, much less the validity of the science. The bill only reduces energy consumption while applying a stealth tax. If your congressman signs it then he is in collusion with superstition while picking your pocket.
The tired Global Warming crap, er Climate Change. It has been loosing adherants among scientists for several years now. You need to factor in the 30 year climate cycle.
Uh, Uh, the Artics melting! Well whoohoo. in 1938 two ships met in the North West passage, one coming from the Atlantic side and one coming from the Pacific side. It’s happened before and it’s going to happen again.
What you should be afraid of is Global Cooling. That has happened before also in just recorded history. That could lead to billions starving to death in short order.
Ok, I am ready for the ad hominem attacks.
The House of Representatives has passed the most ruinous bill in American history and paid tribute to a pedophile. What a sad day.
The blithering idiots in the house passed it. Eight stupid blithering idiot republicans voted for it. More Dems voted against it than republicans. I am seriously depressed. All that calling and emailing? What a supreme waste of time. They don’t listen to us – they don’t give a shite what we think. They want their money and power. They said Nancy was working the floor all day. Yeah, I bet she was working it real good.
Sarcasm on:
Now onto the senate! Yay! They can pass it too! Ooooo… I can’t WAIT to see all those nasty little carbons find their rightful place here on earth or above the earth or whatever carbon hell they’ve just been condemned to. I never did much like carbons anyway. Dirty little polluting things. Especially the ones that come out of cow hineys. Goodness.
I just thank GOD for all of those warm hearted earth loving liberals who have saved us! They saved us, I tell you! From ourselves! Because we don’t know how. They know everything so much better than anyone else. They know what’s best. And the bonus is that they get to feel so darned good about themselves – I can just see all of their little hearts swelling with happy-happy-joy-joy! After all, feeling good is the most important thing in the whole wide world, isn’t it? It’s such a yummy, happy feeling, to feel good about onesself.
Because this isn’t about power, you know. No, no… it’s all about saving the earth from us nasty, dirty, carbon producing humans. It’s not like our government wants to run the power companies. Gee whiz! Who could possibly think that? Heck no. It’s not as though politicians are on some kind of power trip! It’s not as though they want to control other people. No, they just want to do what’s best for everyone and they want to do what’s fair. Golly, there’s nothing wrong with that, is there?
And that silly ol’ scientific proof thing… oh heck, let’s just not worry about that! The important thing is to celebrate the passage of this bill in the house with a cookie exchange! I know, I know! We can make cute little nametags for each other and play some of those “getting to know you” games! I can’t wait to get to know Boris and Shadow and Sheesh, et al. Gosh, I’d better go grab my rainbow and butterfly art set and make them some nametags on my pretty unicorn paper.
Sarcasm: off.
There will no longer be any trust in any number that the government hands out including the CBO. BHO will see to it that the CBO does not contradict him any more. There will no longer be any trust in any main stream media organization. All are compromised. The word is propaganda. Even if the MSM happen to tell the whole truth in any given circumstance, because they are liars they are no longer able to speak the truth without it being tainted by the lie. What they do speak is opinion presented as fact. That is not the truth. The same goes for the liar in chief. It’s like basing global warming on climate models instead of the real evidence on the ground, garbage in, garbage out or in this case opinion presented as fact. Therefore we hope that money really does grow on trees because we are out of money now. No wait we are going to starve the trees because they thrive on co2 and we are going to end co2. I guess no money from trees. Because global warming is a lie and co2 is a poisonous gas and causing global warming is a lie therefore the cap and trade bill is based on a lie. Just because the Supreme Court says co2 a poisonous gas and harmful to the environment does not create the truth out of a lie, therefore every elected politician who voted for this ugly monster of a bill (without even reading it) is a liar too. The Justices also, at least 5 of them lied too.
Anything based on lies cannot stand for long, it’s just a principle in the nature that God created, and we can’t change it. We must conform to the rules of Gods natural law or we’ll pay the price. So if all of the massive redistribution of wealth is based on lies then the money our government is talking from the people is no more than stealing which violates another of Gods natural laws “You shall not steal.” “You shall not give false (lie) testimony against your neighbor. This nation shall not stand under such circumstances.
Find a way to survive and protect yourselves because this government cannot stand on its own anymore and must take the wealth from the people for there is no other wealth left. We are looking at massive debt and rats will be fleeing the sinking ship. Hyper inflation will soon follow. The government will have to rely to the gun to get what it needs from its people which will constitute another crime. If a robber kills you while trying to steal your money that’s called murder “You shall not murder.” Because the government writes a law saying it’s legal to take your money does not make it right and does not change the fact that it’s stealing and if they take it by force and kill you in the process it’s still murder.
These things are being done to you without your consent despite what the government might try to tell with their bogus numbers and polling. The American people as a whole (corporations are owned by people too) do not want to and cannot afford to pay more taxes and should not have to especially without their consent.
Sounds bad I know I know but Gods principals are given to us to ensure that we survive and were truly necessary and they will not be suspended for us just because our government currently does not believe in Gods principals anymore. He will naturally fight against our government because that’s who He is. His word will not return to Him void.
Note: The best way to save yourself is to get as close to God as possible so that when He swings His weapon He won’t hit you, kind of like what you might have done when mamma was coming after you with a stick and you hugged her and said ‘I love you mamma’ so she couldn’t beat you with that stick without hitting herself.
Democrats, p*ssin’ on your back, and callin’ it rain…
I am no fan of this cray government spending, but I think your math is off by a factor of ten. I believe the actual cost per household is more like $40,000, rather than $400,000. Still a shocking number. But not one that will require me to change my underwear.
Michael: Amen Brother.
Glaciation is an eternal threat. Warming
will probably just mean longer growing seasons and more farmland up North.
BTW: Remember how Ronald Reagan was going to cause a war that would cause “nuclear winter” thanks to all the smog and gas those bombs would put into the atmosphere?
Those people were lying then and they are lying now. Final answer.
John Adams
“If men through fear, fraud or mistake, should in terms renounce and give up any essential natural right, the eternal law of reason and the great end of society, would absolutely vacate such renunciation; the right to freedom being the gift of God Almighty, it is not in the power of Man to alienate this gift, and voluntarily become a slave.”
–John Adams, Rights of the Colonists, 1772
I believe John Adams was on to something here. When we give up our faith in God and put it in the hands of man, we get what we have today in our own country right know. When the Constitution was written tour four fathers new this was the result of looking to Government and not God.
“We The People”, not we under Government control hold the people. Words have power and the power was given to the People, not the Government. As we have seen over the last 100 years or so the more we ask the Government to do for us the more we loose power in our own lives.
If we do not stand up and say,no yell that we have had enough, this snow balling power grab will go on until one day we wake up and are being asked for our papers as we go to the store, out of state to other states, arrested for speaking out against the President and Government.
Look at what is happening over in Europe as they watch us become more and more liberal they are becoming more and more conservative. They know if we continue down this path they will no longer be able to call on us to protect them from attacks of all sorts. Our military will fall apart, our economy will fall apart, and as things stand today China will have ownership of us in total.
Find God again America, and find that “Shining City on the Hill” again. We can be great again.
Semper Fi
http://torquedmarine.blogspot.com/
Boris (15)
“So what is the Republican solution to global warming?
That’s right: pretend it doesn’t exist.”
Actually, no. The Republicans asked the EPA and NASA scientists who, in turn, told them it was due to Sun cycles . This proves that the current democrap solution is widely known to have nothing whatsoever to do with global warming.
When that becomes obvious even to the democrap elite, I suggest you don’t side with them when they decide that sacrificing an idiot to their Sun Goddess once a week would solve the problem. You’d obviously be near the top of the list of those to be so honored.
Now do like your mommy says, and always stay in the middle of the herd; no matter how nasty it makes your little hoofs.
I’m afraid this means that we’re one step closer to a Jeffersonian revival.
Socialism will make law breakers of us all. Americans will turn to the black market before they agree to sit in the dark and shiver. Firewood will become the new moonshine and federal agents will be on the hunt for wood burning stoves. The unintended consequences of this folly will be to create a cottage industry in illicit fuels. Anything combustible, trash formerly destined for the landfill, will find a dollar value on the black market. The government will legislate, but the free market has other ideas.
To #15 Boris, the only warming going on right now is from the Tee-Off people of this country.
Oh, Ray, it’s cute that you think you know enough to judge the scientific arguments.
As for centralized power being able to solve the problem, do you need to be reminded of the success of the Montreal protocol and the SO2 cap and trade system? That you think property rights and some sort of naive libertarianism will solve a tragedy of the commons type problem is not surprising given how unsophisticated and immature your attacks on me turned out.
As you might notice from the link you provided, I’m not afraid of getting into with people who have some ability to discuss the issues, but I save my ” cheesy half-assed comments” for the people and sites that exhibit cheesy and half-assed thinking– for people like you, Ray.
“Actually, no. The Republicans asked the EPA and NASA scientists who, in turn, told them it was due to Sun cycles.”
You actually believe this to be true, don’t you? But then again you thought “democrap” was clever enough to type twice, so you are, at least, consistent.
I don’t think the issue here is the truthfulness (or non truthfulness) of the argument as to whether global warming is a function of man’s activities on the Earth, most specifically, the emissions of CO2 those activities generate.
(water vapor is the most common & pervasive “greenhouse gas”)
The issue revolving around this bill is, fundamentally, no different from other recent governmental initiatives, that is, insertion, control & the growth of the scope and power of the federal government & its agencies.
Frankly, Boris, man and his computer models of weather haven’t much of a clue as to whether or not the thesis of anthropogenic global warming holds water, or even water vapor
However, you seem pretty damn sure, which must be because it’s part of your required political philosophy to think that way.
Sun cycles ? Here, read a little about low sunspot activity & our quiescent sun.
Deep Solar Minimum
New Solar Cycle Prediction
Global warming? Not so fast, skeptics say at meeting
Boris (46)
“You actually believe this to be true, don’t you?”
Unlike you, I know what is true and what isn’t, so yes I KNOW it’s true since all truth is not relative.
“But then again you thought “democrap” was clever enough to type twice, so you are, at least, consistent.”
I do consistently irritate some small minds by so spelling the name of their masters. I find that it almost always make it impossible for them to not reply and even mention the spelling. That way I know exactly what level of moron that I’ve been dealing with and therefore can just move on without bothering about them further. They are, after all, unable to sort reality from fantasy or bait from sushi.
Have a nice day
Somebody needs to get capped, that’s for sure
In 1968, Professor Paul Ehrlich, Al Gore’s hero and mentor, predicted, “If I were a gambler, I would take even money that England will not exist in the year 2000″. Sound Familiar?
The following predictions were made at the first earth day celebration:
1) 75 to 85% of all species of living animals will be extinct by the year 2000.
2) The world will be 11 degrees cooler by the year 2000.
3) It is to late to avoid mass starvation, and the average age of death will be 41 in the year 2000.
4) By 2000 the U.S. population would have declined to 22.6 million.
And today, we have prominent politicians,news anchors, celebrities, billionaires, etc. making similar predictions, and any politician that is not a believer, is ridiculed by the MSM. We live in strange times.
BTW…Will someone in the media please check on the island that ’60 minutes’ reported many years ago would be under water by now, due to global warming?
As a “custom farmer”, who provides specialized tractor services to local farmers and ranchers, I am appalled by this irresponsible legislation. The only (perverse) satisfaction I will gain will be when I raise my rates to my (mostly) liberal Democrat customers and explain why I have been forced to do so. Perhaps such fools will think twice before voting for another leftist.
What’s the donkey response going to be? Pretend that the Great Pumpkin doesn’t exist?
/I’ll bet Boris doesn’t believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, either…
This is a solution to a hoax! There is no science to support this problem as man made. I bet is that the Senate will not support this act.
If it does it will be a major set back to the economy.
The 8 republicans that voted yes were all from blue (socialist) states. Ron Kirk (R) Illinois, voted yes, and is running for the Senate seat in 2010. Will definitely be a campaign issue.
It is so fitting that the House stopped to honor child-molester Jackson in the midst of cap and trade pressures. It’s hard to see the difference between Jackson and them when it comes to what this means for our children.
O, my, Rashputin, I fell right into your brilliant trap. Well played, sir!
But, okay, since you know it’s true that the Republicans consulted with scientists at the EPA and NASA, then you won’t mind giving me just of few names of those scientists. Since you know everything, this should be no problem.
The whole problem I have with this, is the arrogance of this society. Do we really believe that we as humans have the ability to destroy that which GOD created?
Call it nature or God it/He has been around a long time before any of us. The earth has been going though Weather changes all that time. Mt. Saint Helen’s put more pollution into the atmosphere than any car or other man made condition in our entire history, and Earth cleaned that up just fine.
Stop thinking you and i have more power then God. Take back control of your lives, stop asking for Government to fix everything for you, and fix it your self. We (the Troops, that have come before and are now, and that will come after), are fighting for the freedom of the People not the Government.
#54 Correction…..Mark Kirk (R) Illinois
Here are a few links to check out. I’m sure you can find more. boob-ama is screwing us some more just like he had us save Chrysler (UAW pensions)as pay back for getting him elected he is now screwing us by jacking up the price of everything with the cap and trade. The joyce foundation provided over a million dollars in grants (read tax write off) to set up commodity trading of carbon. richard Sandor is already rich from it.
The boob even sat on the joyce foundation board. They also provided the website that cleared up any rumors about the boob.
We gotta march
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04/20/key-obama-climate-change-exchange-swayed-officials/
http://www.twine.com/item/11t74myyj-1g1/barron-s-online
http://reddotinaredstate.com/2009/03/25/obamas-cap-and-trade-a-payback-to-joyce-foundation-and-chicago-climate-exchange/
“yep…gonna be a storm.”
No, I don’t think that is what it has normally been called throughout history. But whatever you want to call it, it won’t be pretty, it won’t be gentle, will likely not follow Boris’s concept of the “rule of law” and will make a lot of today’s liberals wet themselves.
See, there is an the upside to everything.
there is a vote coming up in 2010…be there!! and bring every living soul with you and take as many of these people out of office as possible.
So you guys down in the USA want to be poor. Us guys up in Canada would rather be rich. But, as surely as the sun rises over Newfoundland, now the US will erect protectionist trade barriers masquerading as Green Religion, to decide that Canadian gas and oil is “dirty”. This will hurt Canada until we smarten up and find some new energy playmates in the BRIC world. The USA is forcing its best, most reliable and most secure source of energy to look for new markets.
Why is that? Because the USA has been taken over by crazy people. It’s gonna hurt us all in N. America.
Boorish wrote:
You didn’t “get into it,” as you say. Please don’t flatter yourself. You were simply very cocky at first, and then you were thoroughly beclowned. And you never did answer the question. Also, after you were called out, you certainly did seem afraid. Obviously, you were afraid to answer the question directly, and that, I presume, is why you never did.
Boorish wrote:
You beclown yourself again. To be honest, I’d prefer discussing this with someone who understood the issue. Montreal and SO2 cap-and-trade are completely inapplicable to HR-2454, for obvious reasons. As Rob Shapiro, of the US Climate Task Force, notes:
Montreal wasn’t true cap-and-trade (a fund was created that paid producers to restrict output — also called a “fee” — please see Rob’s article in the link above), and acid rain can hardly be compared with carbon dioxide. In fact, William Reilly, the EPA Administrator, got semi-famous for his opening remarks at Montreal’s second meeting:
It’s endearing that you think you understand the economics enough to weigh in on this subject, but a direct tax (or fee, if you prefer) on the manufacture of CFCs is hardly the same as Waxman-Markey. I would note also, even more importantly, that the EPA has long acknowledged that “from 1950 until 1970, the amount of volatile organic compounds and carbon monoxide in the air fell by more than 20 percent, even though total vehicle-miles traveled in this country rose by 120 percent, from 458 billion to 1.1 trillion. The level of sulfur dioxide in the air began falling as far back as 1920, and the total amount of airborne particulate matter has been reduced by 79 percent since 1940″ — all of which obviously occurred before the Clean Air Act of 1970 took hold — and that to this day, the EPA is, by its own admission, “unable to produce evidence that efforts have independently improved air quality” (emphasis mine).
Don’t you realize either that cap-and-trade by definition raises prices, which thereby drains (in carbon offsets) resources by the profits and costs of brokers and traders and certifiers and licensers and lawyers (ad infinitum), all of whom have vested financial interests in maintaining the program?
We notice also that you don’t mention anywhere in your remarks the Los Angeles cap-and-trade program, called the Regional Clean Air Incentives Market (RECLAIM), which was a true cap-and-trade, and which not only failed but failed stupendously.
We notice furthermore that there’s no mention in your remarks of Kyoto, in which utility companies and other sources have “underreported their emissions, purchased flawed offsets, driven up prices, reaped billions in undeserved profits and generally failed to produce promised emission reductions or any significant scale-up of clean energy.”
Why no mention of those, Boorish? They were actual cap-and-trade regulations, much like what you advocate here in this country, and it certainly is centralized power in the ultimate purport, which is what you’re explicitly defending, yes? No? Did Natasha not tell you what an arrant waste Kyoto has turned out to be? Did news not reach Memphis that RECLAIM was a plenary failure? Have you really been reduced to citing (repeatedly) Montreal and acid rain legislation, despite that fact HR-2454 wouldn’t provide a competitive price advantage for so-called clean energy over fossil fuel energy — in other words, wouldn’t create incentives for investment?
No one is denying that centralized power can “solve” the problem — if by “solve” you mean “quash.” The phrase I used was “better equipped.” Government is by definition an agency of force, and centralized power, as its very name implies, entails that government has the power to restrict all industry, if it chooses. That would certainly “solve” CO2. That doesn’t make it right. The real question, of course, is: at what cost? This is called what is seen and what is not seen. “There is only one difference between a bad economist and a good one: the bad economist confines himself to the visible effect; the good economist takes into account both the effect that can be seen and those effects that must be foreseen. In the economic sphere an act, a habit, an institution, a law produces not only one effect, but a series of effects. Of these effects, the first alone is immediate; it appears simultaneously with its cause; it is seen. The other effects emerge only subsequently; they are not seen” (Bastiat, What is Seen and What is not Seen).
The tragedy of the commons, which was a term coined and popularized by a defender of laissez fair named Garret Garret (who, incidentally, in 1918, wrote a book called The Driver in which the main character’s name is Henry Galt, a mysterious and capable fellow who saves an economically collapsing America through his brilliance and productiveness, and of whom it is several times asked “Who is Henry Galt?”), occurs, as Garret Garret points out, precisely because of the lack of private property rights.
We can’t help noticing either that you don’t once mention the fact that cap-and-trade legislation represents a massive infringement of privately owned property, on a number of levels, beginning with the fact that government (as opposed to supply and demand) determines straightway how much energy these industries are allowed produce. That’s called government control of energy, sir, plain and simple, and it’s not only anti-freedom; it’s sheer madness.
Nor do you anywhere address the fact that savings and capital breeds newer and ever newer technologies. Nor do you once broach the fact that the centralized powers which you have so much confidence in have taken the cleanest energy option completely off the table: nuclear energy. Nor, for obvious reasons, do you bring up the fact that nuclear power, the cleanest, most abundant, and most ingenious form of energy we’ve yet discovered, has for decades been forbidden by environmentalists and your lobby groups; so that over a thirty-year time-span, you folks have brought the world 400 million more tons of coal used per year, because for thirty years now, since 1979, following the Three Mile Island accident, we’ve been using more coal.
Nor do you bother mentioning that the meltdown of the uranium core in 1979 at Three Mile Island was so overblown by antinuclear groups that it went virtually unnoticed how the containment vessel at Three Mile Island had done its job and prevented any significant release of radioactivity; nor the fact that despite years of government subsidies (regulators, for instance, have forced utility companies to buy “renewables”), these same renewables still only generate about 0.9 percent of our total electricity. Quoting one Alan P. Loeb, former attorney of the Environmental Protection Agency, reviewing Indur Goklany’s book:
Nor, finally, do you anywhere bring up the utter unconstitutionality of your cap-and-trade legilsation, and indeed you are very wise not to bring it up, since it will disclose in full your stance on inalienable private property rights.
What, Obama won ANOTHER one! He’s a steamroller, baby. And he’s gonna roll all over you. Hey, here’s an idea . . . a 4th of July Tea Party! Yeah! I’m willing. Are you?
Ok Boris, since you’re such a smart sciencey dude, and know all that nerdy-cool science shiite, quick, what’s fugacity, and what does it have to do with the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere?
[And frankly, I don't care if you google it, because you still have to like....understand these things.]
#63 Ray: Wow! I mean, Wow! Awesome response. Thank you very much for contribuing this great comment to the discussion. Obviously, there is no possibility of a reasoned rebuttal to your argument, ergo the reason our intellectually challenged friends are not responding.
Thank you also for the incredible research you did on our behalf. When “Boorish” (love the new moniker) tossed out the bit about Montreal, I had no idea what he was talking about. Unfortunately, I had to dash off to work, but was very delighted to see everything explained so clearly in your post. Thanks for saving me the leg work! Well done.
“You beclown yourself again.”
I never stated that SO2 and Montreal were the same as CO2, only that centralized power works to correct pollution, which you implied was impossible. But completely missing the point seems to be a hobby of yours.
You and the other free market fetishists around here believe that the market will somehow produce new technology, but fail tor realize that the market is already failing because it does not include long term costs associated with global warming.
Obama’s “transparency”, openness? Latest example: The Competitive Enterprise Institute is charging that the EPA has actively suppressed a scientific analysis of Global Warming, which finds that CO2 isn’t a significant factor in global warming. Why would they do such a thing? Could it be political pressure to pass the bill in the House?
Sam Kazman of the CEI General Counsel is quoted as saying, “This suppression of valid science for political reasons is beyond belief. The EPA’s conduct is even more outlandish because it flies in the face of the President’s widely-touted claim that ‘the days of science taking a back seat to ideology are over.’”
Regurgitate all of the numbers that you can find, run computer models until you are blue, argue quotas until you turn red in the face, the bottom line of the welfare of 100′s of millions of Americans and millions of millions of money is on the table for an experimental bet! If the cap and trade wins then we turn green, if it loses then we turn toes up brown.
“If the cap and trade wins then we turn green, if it loses then we turn toes up brown.”
ROFLMAO !!! China and India combined account for what percentage of the planet’s population? Not only are you so wrong that you’re hilarious, you’re so wrong that you may surpass the idiots who were claiming that only particulate matter released in the US mattered back in the seventies when our use of fuel was sure to bring on an ice age. Not the particulate matter from China, Russia, Europe, India, or anywhere else, only from the US. Now, you tell is us that we’re going, “toes up brown” based on what the US does, no matter what the vast majority of the people on the planet do?
Gawd, it really is entertaining to see people so stupid that they’re a danger to themselves post sanctimonious crap like that. Thanks for the good laugh, I needed it.
Have a wonderful last few days on the planet, brown toes
69, the “Pascal’s Wager” argument. But even that’s phony, because of the logarithmic nature of Arrhenius’ law. Pick any feedback factor, it doesn’t matter, the result still is that knocking 10 or 20% off of emissions won’t make a measurable difference. And that’s not even taking into account the increases from India and China.
The truth is that if this is an actual problem, cap’n tax is a joke as an answer. I actually find myself agreeing with the most radical environmentalists on one very narrow point: if we do have a real problem, this is pissing in the wind.
So no, this isn’t even Pascal’s Wager. This is more like buying a bridge.
71 Strawman:
Pascal’s Wager is about faith in a divinity. Arrhenius’s law is a minor part of thermodynamics. It is great when a diversity of opinion is brought into play to try to solve open ended questions with multi-variables, and divergent end point scenarios.
Where does that bridge go?
Pascal’s Wager is also a “heads I win/tails you lose” proposition. Often AGW measures are presented as a kind of Pascal’s Wager in policy drag. They not only ignore the severity of the downside, they commit the unforgivable sin of insisting that their solution, worst case, will save us.
If the worst case really is as bad as the IPCC claims (and I’m decidedly not claiming that it is), all the cap’n tax in the world won’t save our sorry souls or our sorry butts.
Reality is that cap’n tax is kind of like an inverted Pascal’s Wager – either way, we lose. And the bad guys win. Funny, that.
What is not being talked about is how unequally “cap and tax” will be distributed. Agriculture, forestry, high energy use manufacturing, transportation, etc. will obviously bear the brunt of these taxes and their costs of operation will further sky rocket.
It also opens a Pandora’s box of possibility for easily setting up corrupt market monopolies in an elaborate “pay to play” system. Ex: farms could easily be collectivized under “cap and trade”. Further nationalization of industry (like car making) is another example.
The real cost of this bill will be found in the way the “ripple effect” plays out.As with the animals of “Animal Farm” some animals will definately find they are “more equal than others”.
#15. Boris, it’s already been pointed out, ‘global warming’ has become ‘global cooling’. The reason is the sun. See http://www.tmgnow.com/repository/solar/lassen1.html
How extremely funny it is seeing all these left wing ‘neolib’ ‘Numpties’ STILL bleating about Global warming when it has been COOLING since 1998. What this proves that it must take longer than ten years to get something through their thick skulls.
Waxman-Markey to Smoot-Hawley – a series of innocuous Adjustments.
The rules:
1 – treat WaxMan as two words conjoined. Each word must be valid.
2 – changes to ‘Markey’ must all be proper names.
3 – change one character in each word in each iteration.
WaxMan Markey
WaxMat Marley
SaxMat Harley
SaxOat Hawley
SamOat Hawley
Smoat Hawley
Smoot Hawley
The Deniers amongst you may have spotted that SamOat became Smoat, and that this may trangress Rule #1 and possibly #3. However, there is a consensus amongst the members of the Supreme Noun-Benders And Fictioneers Union, that these Adjustments are valid. Indeed, the Literature is Settled.
Visualizing the debt: if we say that Obama is increasing our mortgages by $400,000, THAT really hits home.
REMEMBER WHO VOTED TO SAVE AMERICAN JOBS AND THOSE WHO BETRAYED US.
Don’t believe for one minute, we are out of the quicksand yet? The illegal immigration enforcement battle has just began. Starting when Senate Leader Harry Reid, Speaker Nancy Pelosi and even President Obama begin their devious manipulating when the amendments enter closed door sessions. Our victories may have seemed successful and closed, but it now enter the dark domain of the conference committees. This is where our laws and brought and sold by the highest bidders, because the vicious cycle comes with open border, the free traders who have already been lobbying hard and have large war chests. Sen. Jim DeMint (R-SC) authored the completion of 700-miles of fencing along the southwest border, not just pathetic vehicular barriers and a virtual barrier.
Sen. Jeff Sessions (R-Ala.) that would require all federal contractors to check the eligibility of new hires through E-Verify. Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-N.Y.) tried to table the amendment, but the motion was defeated. The amendment also calls for a permanent reauthorization of E-Verify, which is set to expire in September.Sen. Charles Grassley’s (R-Iowa) E-Verify amendment to the Homeland Security spending bill allows employers to check the workplace eligibility of all employees–NOT JUST NEW HIRES. Sen. David Vitter’s (R-La.) No-Match amendment prevents further delay in the implementation of a Bush Administration rule allowing the Social Security to send No-Match letters to employers.
All the anti-sovereignty, pro-illegal immigrant groups are already swallowing their own bile, but will be on the doorstep on the Congress in the following days. The American people must be vigilant against many organization, who not only want to squash E-Verify completely, but de-construct the border wall. Council of Foreign Relations wants no barriers between the North American countries, so it doesn’t inhibit the free movement of cheap labor. The US Chamber of Commerce seems to believe American workers should be in competition with anybody who climbs the border wall? Who would ever think trade unions such as AFL-CIO, would in their leadership condone illegal labor in their membership. ACLU group like many others are secretly financed by taxpayer dollars, as is LA Raza and other radical organizations. If we didn’t have the bloggers and a moderate media, the public would be left unaware of the weakening of ICE RAIDS, 287(g) police enforcement the REAL ID ACT.
Almost every law on the books that includes 287(g) for local enforcement is always weakened or even snuffed out by political conspirators. Any activist knows whose behind annulling the 287(g) police questioning, arrest and detain of illegal aliens? Our lady at the Homeland Security office, Madam Janet Napolitano. She keeps opening her mouth and with a forked tongue, swears she adamantly supported E-Verify and other programs, while secretly she and her minions underfund working laws, just as she did when she was governor of Arizona? Sheriff Joe Ariapo showed most of these genuflecting elected officials the door, and he certainly has major backing of voters in Maricopa county. They have had enough of spreading crime and utter indifference to American law.
Their is a commitment by the Catholic church to undermine federal immigration laws, that is outrageous and they should lose the tax exempt status. But remember that although the coming AMNESTY is a disastrous crisis, the following waves of illegal potential squatters will be our Armageddon. The acceleration towards the genesis of Overpopulation. If we allow the politicians to enact another immigration reform program, it will become a calamity as was the 1986 AMNESTY.
California–a SANCTUARY STATE–is now bearing a heavy burden, for voting into office–TAX AND SPEND–legislators, who allowed the state to become a refuge for millions of illegal aliens and families, that have drained the government coffers dry. THE GATHERING STORM OF FURIOUS VOTERS FROM ACROSS AMERICA, CANNOT NOT, MUST NOT STOP CONTACTING THEIR SENATE AND CONGRESS. 202-224-3121 THE US TAXPAYER MUST REMAIN ALERT AND LET THESE POLITICIANS UP THERE KNOW WHOSE IN CHARGE. THAT THEIR JOBS ARE ON THE LINE, LIKE THE MILLIONS OF AMERICAN WORKERS. GOOGLE THE INTERNET, TO DECIDE THE FACTS FOR YOURSELF. OR GO TO NUMBERSUSA, CAPSWEB, JUDICIALWATCH & AMERICANPATROL