Scene is familiar. Half naked kids beg for food in the streets. Poor people search through trash cans for food. Soup kitchens close their doors on long lines of people still waiting to eat. Professionals leave for overseas. People squirrel their money into foreign bank accounts.
Welcome to Europe in crisis, or at least to Greece. The approved word for poverty in Europe is “social exclusion,” a concept invented to describe people who had not yet been brought into the European Social Model. It “refers to processes in which individuals and entire communities of people are systematically blocked from rights, opportunities and resources (e.g. housing, employment, healthcare, civic engagement, democratic participation and due process) that are normally available to members of society and which are key to social integration.”
According to the European Statistics Office in 2010, 27.7% of people in Greece, 24.5% in Italy, 19.3% in France, 25.5% in Spain and 25.3% in Portugal were “socially excluded.” As a whole 23.4% of[r] around half a billion European citizens fell into this category.
Medecins Sans Frontieres is watching the rise of infectious diseases and malaria in Greece, things it believed were gone from Europe. How did it come to this? Nick Cohen of the Guardian is beginning to understand that collapse of southern Europe is the direct consequence of the European political project:
Currency union is — self-evidently — a disaster. Admitting that would bring a loss of face too great for the European elites to bear. To take the most discreditable example, Germany and Holland have benefited enormously from the single currency holding down the exchange rate for their goods, while imposing effective tariff barriers on southern Europe.
Still, it was all done with the best of intentions. Even now, admitting that a mistake has been made requires more gumption than most politicians can manage. For years the European Social Model — and Europe itself — was such an act of faith that to express skepticism would have been blasphemy. It still is.
The EU cannot take responsibility for what it has done and be magnanimous for reasons British readers may not grasp. Raised in a Eurosceptic country, we do not understand how an absolute commitment to the European project was a mark of respectability on the continent. Like going to church and saying your prayers for previous generations, a public demonstration of commitment to the EU ensured that the world saw you as a worthy citizen. If you wanted to advance in Europe’s governing parties, judiciaries, bureaucracies and culture industries, you had to subscribe to the belief that ever-greater union was self-evidently worthwhile.
To the Left, the real problem with Europe was that it could not rid itself of the last taint of capitalism. Cohen recalls his conversation with “Liana Kanelli, spokeswoman for the Greek Communist party, about her country’s crisis”:
[S]he flew off into a rage about how the 1999 Nato intervention to stop Serb nationalists slaughtering Kosovo Muslims was an imperialist plot to extend capitalism into the Balkans.
Unfortunately the aspirin of fantasy can no longer palliate the hell into which southern Europe is descending. Kanelli is getting her wish, and the last vestiges of capitalism are being driven from the country.
University of Athens economist Panagiotis Petrakis ticks off the indicators: standard of living down, by as much as 30 per cent; bank deposits that have not been spirited out of the country are dwindling; almost 70,000 businesses folded in 2010 and bankruptcy is stalking more than 53,000 of the remaining 300,000; unemployment, 25 per cent – but youth joblessness is 47 per cent and rising; a quarter of the population living in poverty; homelessness, up 25 per cent, with well-educated youngsters accounting for much of the rise. Petty crime, doubled.
On top of all that Petrakis detects a slow run on the Greek banks. “It means a slow death for the economy,” he forecasts.
One Greek economist commenting on the parallels and differences between Greece and Argentina, In addition to having what amounts to no manufacturing, “We aren’t even self-sufficient in agriculture.”
SYRIAN ELECTION FEB 26, 2012
China has been holding out on the basis that there should be a referendum on Feb 26, 2012 for a caretaker government. Let’s call their bluff!
With such short notice, who would run in the referendum? I propose that Syrians be given a choice. Vote for Bashar Al-Assad or vote for his wife Asma Al-Assad. This would be a nod to Queen Consort Noor of Jordan, who has led the way.
Everyone knows who the candidates are, so pick the one you prefer for a short term caretaker government. Vote Feb 26, 2012.
All right Syrian ladies, to the streets to bang on your pots and pans for Asma!
The Turks must be thanking their lucky stars that they did not join the EU.
Greeks with science/engineering skills are emigrating to Canada, Australia and USA in droves.
Greece will become a large retirement home for aged N Europeans who will appreciate the weather and the low cost
–quite a change from the days of Club Med with nubile nudes frolicking in the sun and sand.
What Greece has is what every piece of property has, Location Location Location. They can earn money the same way they have for 3,000 years, through trade and shipping. Those Turks not wedded to the dead anchor of Islamist challenges to the West, which in practice means becoming a stooge of Russia and China and enabling the Iranian fomenting of disaster for the Sunni Ummah, might support Greece as not a barrier but a conduit to the West. After all the old Sublime Porte was largely run by the Greeks. The Israelis can hope that the approaching oil and gas wealth will help stabilize Cyprus and Greece, and revive the fortunes of their friends in Turkey.
As in Detroit people are returning to the land. What Greece is burdened by is the insupportable urban administrative tumor in Athens. It is possible that the repudiation of Centralism in Greece and by extension in the EU might lead to the revival of traditional local identities that have been reduced to meaningless administrative units. Perhaps in 50 years the inhabitants of Thessaly or Epirus the Cyclades will be largely self governing and secure in the knowledge that no one will either ask them to fund anyone else’s “Social Deficit” or send money to support an elite devoted to nurturing a deficit of theirs.
“youth joblessness is 47 per cent and rising”
I have a vague recollection of reading that about half the people who joined Mao on his Six Thousand Mile March were under the age of 18. And they brought down the government.
One of the key jobs for the Political Clique in Greece must be trying to keep electric power on. If the power grid fluctuates and the internet goes down, that army of jobless young people may finally say Enough!
Just as the Arab Spring was triggered by a single Tunisian’s self-imolation, the Political Cliques in the rest of the EU must be worried about what Twitter-less young Greeks could start in the rest of the high unemployment EU. No wonder Germany keeps printing more money for Greece.
The lands of make-believe…. The delusional European politicians still cling to the idea that their one-size-fits-all currency contraption will work, even as it crashes and burns. US politicians still talk of building bullet trains and wind farms in the desert and pretend that Obamacare, Medicare, Social Security and other unbounded entitlements won’t push our entire enterprise over the cliff. China continues to spend lavishly to produce GDP (regardless of whether that spending actually creates antyhing useful) seemingly with the belief that as long as the patient is stimulated to run at full speed, he can’t die. Where is the land of make-believe? Apparently anywhere a politician’s head is. It appears that almost all of them dwell there.
I’ve been socially excluded all my life
And so have both my children and my wife
We think we know why we must play this part
We fart
When Lefties tell us socialism’s great
The model for each high progressive state
We nod and say we take these words to heart
And fart
The single currency is not at fault
As Germans load the money in the vault
And when they say it’s all because of Sartre
We fart
We watch the EU countries in collapse
They say they’re fine it’s just a slight relapse
Until they put the horse before the cart
We’ll fart
given their limited remaining private sector, what level of population can actually sustain itself there now? seems like one way or another at least 30% of the current population is going to have to make alternative accommodations.
Here is the “its not so bad” version:
“The Way Greeks Live Now” By RUSSELL SHORTO, February 13, 2012
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/19/magazine/the-way-greeks-live-now.html
Perhaps without meaning to the NYT is repeating every point that is being made on this post. From the link above:
But isn’t this exactly what the system is setting up the rest of Europe and America to undergo? The denial by the left newspapers; newspapers which themselves are headed straight into bankruptcy; the emerge of a black economy, even barter, unending unemployment, the corruption of the banks, the dominance of the Chinese, the power of oil money … any of it sound familiar?
I should have asked the Left wing journalist interviewed by the NYT where his paper was when all of this was happening? And what they plan to do now — now that the last vestiges of all capitalism except Chinese and Qatari capitalism had been driven away.
Were they happy yet? Maybe they thought the answer was more Green Energy. More windmills. Maybe they think it is more college graduates. Maye they think it is more stimulus spending. Sure that will do it.
But who can laugh at the Greeks when the Best and the Brightest are following right in their footsteps? Greece is not the land of the past, but the land of the future. That should be plain. But it is not.
As Cohen in the Guardian observed, Europe did not so much lose its religion as change it. Socialism and Gaia. Well it’s a god that failed. But they are still waiting for a miracle.
Walt 7,
Channeling Spike Jones?
Der Fuehrer’s Face.
The Donald Duck Disney version used a less obvious sound effect.
Terrible as things may get I believe that they can also get better. Once the rent seekers and those who have benefited from cultivating Social Deficits learn the till is empty then most of them will work. Maybe I am showing irrational exuberance but I believe that Americans have the same gifts we always have. We just have been trained to hide them. I also believe that as America is a nation of immigrants there is no good reason why other nations cannot also find the path the liberty and prosperity. Perhaps the Greeks like the Americans will act as Churchill predicted, and after exhausting every other alternative they will do the right thing.
2/4
I recall a handful of news articles from several years back – which have NOT been followed up by our courageous domestic MSM – about the various TENT CITIES of Homeless and un-employed people, which have sprung up around the country. My recollection is that the articles indicated the municipal authorities in most cases were treading very lightly, refraining from “rousting” the residents so long as they weren’t embarrassing them by indulging in crimes against their host communities.
At the same time, there was some sense in the reporting that it was becoming increasingly difficult for the cities to keep the issue out of the news.
Well, Anyone heard any further news about homeless tent cities or “shanty towns” around the U.S?
Some links:
from the UK Daily Mail…
…from NYTimes back in 2009…
…from the UK Guardian…
…from a CANADIAN PAPER, the Toronto Star, from its online version, circa 2008!
I can’t find a SINGLE UNITED STATES NEWS ORGANIZATION with any CURRENT article about the so-called “Obamavilles.” ANYONE ELSE????
Effing Traitors won’t report anything showing the bankruptcy of President Failure-Face.
p.s. Dear Blast,
I salute your cheery optimism, but I suspect it’s for the LONG VIEW, not the short term.
Hey, Europe recovered from the Black Death, and workers enjoyed a huge advantage for generations after.
The approved word for poverty in Europe is “social exclusion”, a concept invented to describe people who had not yet been brought into the European Social Model.
How elegant! I hope to find the opportunity to trot that out before some petit-academic and show how enlightened I are.
But who can laugh at the Greeks when the Best and the Brightest are following right in their footsteps? Greece is not the land of the past, but the land of the future. That should be plain. But it is not.
I ain’t laughing. Greece had democracy two thousand years before the US and especially California, but as a collapsed socialist state it is probably less than twenty years in advance – maybe twenty hours, who knows. In any case, we’re catching up! Hey, they even had Gaia first.
Did you see the closing episode of “Boston Legal”, where the Chinese who bought the firm start smoking cigars and drinking scotch the way the Americans (Shatner and Spader, Denny Crane and Alan Shore) had before? Hope they enjoy themselves. Don’t look back, fellas.
–
But I have a question, too. Greece is tiny, total population around 10,000,000. I’d guess Los Angeles county has more unemployed. Is the whole Greek tragedy after all some kind of farce?
“The result is that Greece, like Detroit, may be destroyed”.
http://www.detroityes.com/home.htm – The ruins of Detroit must be seen to be believed. As an American who grew up at the tail end of the baby boom with the expectation that the escalator only went up, they were shocking.
it’s not the social welfare that bankrupted countries it’s the euro, that was created for suiting Germany’s need to get a bigger Market Lebensraum than eastern Germany alone, whereas southern economies couldn’t match a big industrial machine orientated towards exportations.
We had a equilibrated social welfare until we were locked into the EMU based on the DM, since the nineties, as debt and inflation were compensing each other. Spain still had one of the lowest national debts of the EZ (60%) until the euro crisis started.
The problem is that Germany doesn’t want to assume her responsability of leader, and to make transfers to the poorest regions, as they are in use in the US, when a state is on the verge of bankrupty.
She even don’t want that the Greeks step out the EZ, or that she herself steps out of EZ too.
AEP made quite a few posts on the german stubborness austerity plan, that drives the EZ into a grave recession.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/
oh and BTW, Germany doesn’t appear in the above link for the poverty in EU eurostats, though there is quite a big percentage too, when 3O% of the labor force is on part time jobs of around €5 pro working hour, and the Hartz IV program jobs, even lesser, we saw a report on german elders, that earn €400 pro month for their retirement wages, and must find a student job to finish the month.
It is the “Modèle Allemand” that Germany wants to impose in EZ, and that our silly Sarkozy is advocating for France too, this will not pull EZ out of recession, I hope that whatever new president is elected, he will not buy into this schema, and make alliance with Italy and Spain for changing the rules, wether Germany accepts the eurobonds, and that ECB becomes a true central bank, wether the EZ will break down into two zones, the northerners vs the southeners, politically it will never be accepted by Brussels, or each one returns to its own currency, then EU in Brussels will go kaputt too.
stats on poverty in EU
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_PUBLIC/3-18012010-AP/EN/3-18012010-AP-EN.PDF
BFTP/11
Not consciously, but when I was 12 I thought Spike Jones was hilarious. Saw him in person when I was 14, and I still remember it, full audio, visual and olfactory recall. Spike Jones was a genius, and I am not ashamed to admit I have 6 of his best on my iPod, including Der Fuhrer’s Face, under Walt’s Favorites.
There are only slightly more than “half a billion” Europeans in total (503,824,373 (July 2012 est.) according to the CIA Factbook). Therefore 23% of them would be around 115 million.
BFTP11 & Walt16
I’ve got to go and find “Cocktails For Two”. I haven’t thought of Spike and the City Slickers for years! Thanks guys.
Ned
Josh@13 -
I’m always about 4 or 5 years behind the curve on tv shows, thus I’m only on Season 4 of Boston Legal. Damn you for your spoiler!!! LOL
Greece is doomed to become a nation of low paid waiters and nurses aids.
The dreams of oil and gas have collapsed
Smart people are leaving–why would they stay?
The Financial Times predicts that Spain is next.
The United German Empire is moving forward-they are also getting more rational in ending subsidies for solar and wind boondoggles.
The question is will the United German Empire align with Russia?
a .7 probability now and trending higher.
20. Victor
except if Russia feels that Germany is a threat, like in the 1890 years, otherwise there are many signs that Germany prefers extending eastwards
The fact that things seem hopeless suggests that those benefiting from the current arrangements will stop at nothing — at least not by feelings of solidarity, patriotism or humanity — for as long as it keeps their gravy train rolling. Just as they left Detroit a ghost town, and perhaps as they’re going to leave the Golden State in time a ghost state, nothing will stop the architects of catastrophe except an inability to continue.
In time, a coalition of political forces will arise in response to the inevitable resentment and unrest and unseat them. Just as perhaps the Republican or Democratic Parties will renew themselves through breakaway factions, or a new party appears — something anyway — the Europeans are likely to generate a political movement that will respond to their condition. Inevitably that will come. Of course the 1930s showed that replacement parties were not always better than those they superseded.
But at any rate the current political elites seem signally unable to reform themselves, which means they are doomed to detach themselves from their parent societies and in time, burn themselves out.
Since a discontinuity is almost certainty, one would think that ambitious political entrepreneurs will soon be leading movements in revolt. But in such cases, timing is everything. What one is likely to see in the interim is the emergence of proto-movements and perhaps the Tea Party and even Occupy are harbingers of that.
The game is afoot, but it is in its early stages. Those who are less than 20 years of age are likely to see the cycle complete and live to see a new flourishing, presuming the world doesn’t blow itself up. But those who are 40 and over are probably SOL. Living through rapid change while shambling around in a walker looking for your dentures or glasses so you can make your getaway on the 5 gallons of gas left in the tank is probably not going to be fun.
W said –
“Those who are less than 20 years of age are likely to see the cycle complete and live to see a new flourishing, presuming the world doesn’t blow itself up. But those who are 40 and over are probably SOL. ”
–
In most European countries there are to few ” less than 20 year olds” to pay the price of supporting the old in their dotage
.–same with China, Israel etc– for that matter.
What will the smart kids in these countries do?
They will leave to America, Australia, Canada where there is lots of space and opportunities
–the science and engineering kids will leave firs
t–but there is still lots of opportunities in agriculture in Canada, USA and Australia.
Power is about food, oil, gas , commerce, technology and last– weapons
BTW-the head of the Joint Chief of Staff has spoken
–He said
-Iran is a rational actor and is not an existential threat to the USA
–end of story
I thought you were talking about the Hukou system…
Depressing news and it is very scary when you think this is a vision of our future (and most of Europe’s too). The question is how long we will wait? As Greece if finding out (and as Argentina experienced previously), if you wait too long the pain is far far worse.
Japan Posts Largest Trade Deficit EVAH!!! http://tinyurl.com/6n49kyt
WHAT DO WE WANT?
A RE-START OF THE NUKES!
WHEN DO WE WANT IT!
NOW!
How do you say “The only thing we need to fear is fear itself” in Japanese? German too!
Greek? How about some Greek politican with “Greek balls” goes to the EU and demands that those wussies in Germany stop listening to Frau Merkel, who comes pre-castrated, and re-start their nukes to save the GERMAN economy?
Greek balls = In the European Union, anyone with a trace of testosterone is said to have “Greek balls”. Such as “in the land of idiots, an imbecile is king!”
Victor said: “–same with China, Israel etc ”
Same with Israel? With three and a half births per Jewish woman ( and even when not taking into account ultra-religious, it’s three point one) ?
Victor @ 23 – Yes, Iran is a rational actor. That’s why A-Jad is in a panic to call off the dogs of (Arab Spring style) Gunboat diplomacy(war by other means). The class clown act has gotten very old and the new nanny is having none of it!
So if getting a timeout from SWIFT doesn’t do the job, we’ll let the Green Revolutionaries have a turn, and A-Jad can swim with the fishes, just like Osama. Wouldn’t even need a refueling plane, just dump him in the next plot while flying back to “a secret location” in the Indian Ocean. Bombs Away!
End of story.
“Greece is devolving into something unprecedented in modern Western experience…”
Perhaps not unprecedented. Remember “a Panzer in every village?”
“But at any rate the current political elites seem signally unable to reform themselves, which means they are doomed to detach themselves from their parent societies and in time, burn themselves out.”
Well, “detach” can have multiple meanings. Recall the PI Commie leader who you showed dancing in a nightclub with a lovely young performer? He was “detached” from his society, wasn’t he? Left the mess at home for the equivalent of a Leftist Officer’s Mess among the admiring accolates in a foreign country.
Reading these comments — reminds me of the old Bob Zimmerman/Dylan tune, “You don’t need a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing”.
That sentiment seems so much more pertinent today than it did back in the day. The “wind” back then blew Obama-guides Dohrn & Ayers into well-paid sinecures in the system they despised. Ah! But we were so much older then; we’re younger than that now.
“The result is that Greece, like Detroit, may be destroyed. What accounts for the absolute lack of political consequence is myth.”
Standing in front of the ancient ruins of Greece, knowing even its history to some extent, one asks, where did these great people go, what led to their downfall? And now we have a modern answer by example; the great people died and those who believed that the very dirt they stood on was the well spring of greatness and not the achievements of few ran their predecessors works back into the ground from whence they came.
victor – “Greece will become a large retirement home for aged N Europeans who will appreciate the weather and the low cost”
Good one. Club med for an aging European elite.
deleted
G&D to social exclusion to SOL…seems a natural progression that has been happening for years with only the actors and phrases changing. Alas, with the economy global even those of us that prefer to smile and laugh at our selves are afforded less opportunity to do so.
I will ponder this further as I turn my pile of compost.
Pol Pot is alive and well in Greece, Germany and California
Denninger has a post of what happened to Iceland after it defaulted:http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=202294
‘Iceland give the banks the middle finger/wins”.
Such a course of action may be far too late and not entirely possible for the Greeks because they and their social welfare state would have to – ahem – live within their means.
Remember Thermopile?
You’ve come along way, baby.
Some years back as I read Paul Kennedy’s Rise and Fall of the Great Powers, I noticed something about civilizations and stability. Many of the older civilizations (e.g., China, Japan, The Mogul empire) endured for a long time due to the rise of a bureaucracy which kept things quite stable. Unfortunately, bureaucracies favor stability over innovation; thus, we tend to view those civilizations as somewhat stagnant. Yes, they endured for long periods, but intimately they fell when they were unable to adapt against a stronger force from outside. Adaptation requires an ability to innovate under pressure.
This seemed to be the general trend except for one corner of the world: Europe. In this area, no overarching bureaucracy evolved. Instead, the European nations engaged in fierce competition, always throwing elbows and looking for an advantage. This competitive environment fostered an unusual degree of creativity as nations sought to out-do their neighbors. Eventually, this lead technical and economic innovation, as the Europeans expanded overseas for resources, and new ideas in the marketplace made people rich. In a nutshell, competition allowed Europe to dominate the world.
What we’re now seeing in Europe is the imposition of a Mandarin-type bureaucracy that seeks stability at all costs. This unfortunately comes at the expense on innovation. Thus, Europe has become stagnant (seen any great ideas out of Europe lately, other than governmental process?). The lesson should be that bureaucracy is the antithesis of competition.
The parallel in the US is that originally the individual states were set up to be separate areas of innovation. What the progressives are trying to set up is an overarching, one-size-fits-all, Mandarin bureaucracy, mandating compliance in all areas of life. Our crumbling economy merely reflects the killing off of market competition and risk aversion to new ideas as folks hunker down against the storm.
The big question is, to what outside force do we eventually succumb?
Social Exclusion sure smells like a second hand term for unwelcome and very dependent immigrants.
Italy is absolutely flooded with Romani/ Gypsies — and Albanians — and muslims, too.
Without the Catholic Church, they’d be starving.
The road to Hell is paved with good intentions — and the Church meant well when they fed the needy.
The moral hazard of providing open ended succor was not seriously debated. The result is that people who would have starved in their land of birth now come and starve/ scrape by in the West. This displaced tragedy has gutted the economic engine of Europe — for it was not a high growth zone to begin with.
Like Mexicans, these immigrants would’ve been far better off – collectively – if they’d stayed home – and modernity came to them. In their own lands they would be princes.
But in provincialist Europe they are economic non-persons. European law most emphatically does NOT favor immigrants. Even wealthy Americans find that they can’t expect to EVER attain citizenship there. You need blood connections to even have a shot. Long term residency is permitted, however, as long as you’re not an obvious economic parasite.
Which is where the ‘socially excluded’ euphemism comes into play. Such immigrants are in the European twilight zone.
If it were not for the horrific example of the Nazis, these objectionable residents would’ve long since been deported.
——
The game must change, now that a hard limit is upon all: the end of the stash.
At some nexus the entire European community will ‘flip’ and re-categorize the socially excluded as a manifest threat to their polity. I expect some crazed blow-up by the ummah — massively amplified by Tehran — to trigger this shift.
While all of the talk these hours is of Jerusalem vs Tehran — the mullahs are REALLY at war with the West – entire.
Now that they’ve cut off France and Britain — it’s a pretty good bet that we’re on a hyperbolic ascent to crisis.
I expect both Jerusalem and Tehran to think entirely out-of-the-box — and that all open speculation will prove anti-informative.
—–
My prior track record for prediction has me gagging myself: I don’t care to influence events — which now seem headed towards equal parts tragedy, farce and folly.
So approximately 25% of Europeans are estranged from the society they inhabit?
AFAIK, that is a historical low. During Feudal Europe That number had to be closer to 80%
Of course, Feudal Europe did not have the American Eagle standing watch over their lives and property. I suspect ALL societies have a certain percentage of members that really don’t want to be there.
Is it possible to use the percentage of disaffected as a metric for the success of society? Or is a societies success calculated in some other way?
The big question is, whatever happened to balance. This goofy pipeline is a poster child for the absolutist dogmatism that passes for insight and direction. Build, innovate, and expand!! Go forth and Do Things!! The Rest be D@mned!! And Don’t Blame Me!!
Same thing with the debate over Statism. Corruption encroached on any benefits that ‘may have accrued’ over the last half century. What to do? This country needs a Christian theocracy!!
This stuff is just nuts. Ann Barnhardt on steroids.
Since the earlier thread won’t accept my response, the Brookings consensus is somewhere between neutral and center-left, none of which seems to have affected their high level of influence and regard:
In a 1997 survey of congressional staff and journalists, Brookings ranked as the second-most influential and first in credibility among 27 think tanks…..Along with the American Enterprise Institute and The Heritage Foundation, Brookings is generally considered one of the three most influential policy institutes in the U.S.
I really don’t understand how so many people seem to think that there’s going to be some sort of Great Awakening in which socialism will be destroyed (or destroy itself, I guess) and its adherents will accept that it doesn’t work. This is the same mindset that followed the fall of the Berlin Wall. As if all those hardcore communists, KGB/GRU/WTF agents and all the rest were just going to to beat their swords into plowshares. Really? But this time will be different, right? Bull*. This struggle will go on, in one form or another, until humanity ceases to exist. It’s just human nature.
The question that really puzzles me is where are the socialists/statists will run to after Greece and the rest are no longer a viable host for their brand of parasitism.
Abbie Normal @ 37: “The big question is, to what outside force do we eventually succumb?”
Beg to differ. Which outside force will be involved is not so important. It will be simply a spin of the roulette wheel. The force which is bringing western civilization down is inside the gates.
Not so very long ago, lots of people died of pneumonia. But their bodies had already been weakened by other diseases, malnutrition, and injuries. That left them exposed to a terminal infection, and pneumonia fitted the bill. But pneumonia was only the immediate cause of death, not what really killed them.
As with individuals, so with societies. See Prof. Charles Handy’s theory of the Sigmoid Curve.
Blert
Iran oil for France was counting for 3% (and the libyan oil is resurfacing), UK had already given up iran oil, so the mullahs make a phoney warning
Hello, long time lurker here, many thanks to W and the commenters for a fine product, simply the best. I carpool with an ex MiG-21 mechanic turned aerosol engineer who told me this AM, of a bank note exchange in the late 80’s in the USSR. One Monday morning you were told over the radio you have until Midnight Wednesday to exchange your notes. “Local bank only please, and 10k a-day max”. Being a cash only economy, huge hordes of cash were the norm. On that Thursday he said you could find stacks of 100 note bills in dumpsters. Makes great wall-paper though, he laughed. Today that would be an add-water civil war, but I wonder how much longer before we shuffle off to the bank to wait in 12 hour long lines, muttering under our breath at the inconvenience.
Unsk @ 35 said:
“‘Iceland give the banks the middle finger/wins”. Such a course of action may be far too late and not entirely possible for the Greeks because they and their social welfare state would have to – ahem – live within their means.”
IMHO, this is an apples and oranges comparison. My reading is that Iceland tried to make a quick buck through the international banking/finance Ponzi swindle but it blew up in their faces. They then defaulted on their debt and went back reluctantly to making an honest living as fishermen. The Greek situation was entirely different. Years ago, Greeks saw an opportunity to milk the northern Europeans for billions by joining the EU and going deeply into debt. After plugging into that gravy train, the Greeks through the PASOK (Panhellenic Socialist Movement) party became a nation of unionized civil servants who earned their living by voting for more socialism and going on strike when the money didn’t flow in fast enough.
The Greeks have had a good run, enjoyed several decades sunning themselves on their beautiful beaches, eating delicious food and living a comfortable life. Unfortunately that gravy train has run its course and like the people of Iceland, the Greeks will soon have to earn an honest living. Maybe they’ll figure out that socialism was a bad idea (yeah, right, is there anyway that could happen?).
Eggplant
except that was Goldman & Sachs that advised Greece, and that Germany wan’t then opposed to Greece access to EZ. Delors wanted to make a audit of Greece before the decision was teken, he receive a phone call from higher authorities to not do it. So seing the number of Goldman & Sachs boys in EZ, EU, Draghy at ECB, Monti at the head of Italy’s goernment, Papademos at the head of Greece’s… and many others that aren’t in the medias topics… the whole euro thing was a bankers decision from your side of the pond !
Eggplant #45:
Just saw this:
“Greece is expected to be forced to set up a separate account that would ensure it services its debt. This escrow account would give legal priority to debt and interest payments over paying for government services. That would maintain pressure on Greece to stick to promised austerity and reform measures and spare the eurozone the risk of a destabilizing default.
The escrow account would, however, be an unprecedented intrusion into a sovereign state’s fiscal affairs and could ultimately see Greece forced to pay interest on its debt before paying salaries to teachers and doctors.
In addition, Greece’s international creditors will station permanent representatives in Athens to monitor the country’s progress.”
Based on this precedent, when will the Occupation Force for California be defined? And will the International Monetary Fund be renamed the Impossible Missions Force?
Greek @ 40
“In a 1997 survey of congressional staff and journalists, Brookings ranked as the second-most influential and first in credibility among 27 think tanks…..Along with the American Enterprise Institute and The Heritage Foundation, Brookings is generally considered one of the three most influential policy institutes in the U.S.”
That was in the year 3 BB (Before the Blogosphere). The birth of the blogosphere was 2000 AD, with the birth of Rathergate. So you think a positive opinion from the Lame Stream Media is a positive credential? No wonder Greece is broke! But if you really want to go back to BB, I still say we’d be delighted to declare Arianna Huffington persona non grata and deport her to her native land! She’s a real PROGRESSIVE SEER! You’ll LUV her!
So is the Iranian warship in Tartus there to provide an escape route, ala Douglas MacArthur’s escape from Corregidor by PT boat, for Assad? One assumes the Iranians would offer asylum to him.
You know that sort of thing is happening here in the US, too? The BBC recently had a thing about children in the US being forced to catch and eat rats…(google it, or just look for it on Youtube).
Rather than clucking on bad government behavior in Greece, why don’t we focus on it here at home? One of the worst traits Americans have is telling others what to do, when our country is just as screwed up.
Nearly all of Europe sucks. Income taxes range from 60% to 8o% depending on what country you live in. With that kind of taxes, nobody wants to invests. All the money goes for social programs.
We have a friend who save up her frequent flier miles for British Airlines. With all her flier miles her tickets were free; however there was a catch. The carbon taxes on her one ticket is $2000. Being that she is traveling with husband that means they have to cough up $4000 for two free tickets just to visit England. Assuming that they are going, they will go into debt just to get there. Assuming they are not going, England will lose out on the tourist dollars they would have spent.
Hello Marie Claude, I have missed you.
No need to worry about Greece. The Euro Central Bank has just the solution; it has unilaterally subordinated all private Greek Bondholders to the ECB. Now the ECB will get it’s money back – if that ever happens- first. And the Euro will be tanking 4..3..2..1. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/ecb-has-opened-pandora’s-box
Greece is now experiencing the consequences of American-led corporate imperialism. Like most Western Europen nations, Greece had many compassionate social programs despite being under the heel of NATO, much to the chagrin of the American corporate plutocracy.
Unfortunately, democracy and compassion were crushed in order to satisfy the requirements of the German, and unltimately Wall Street, corporate overlords. The consequences are the Greek working class has become almost as impoversihed as its American counterpart.
The Greeks need to tell the Wall Street plutocracy and their German toadies to take their corporate rules and shove them where the sun don’t shine. Then, they can start a crash program of new compassionate social programs that will provide nutritious food, housing, and jobs for all.
I’m not sure if #53 is parody. The last sentence seems to suggest it is.
Anyway, that sort of ‘thinking’ has fooled the Greeks: The big political winner in the current situation; the party gaining the most support is …. The Communist Party.
All hail Walt!! That most flatulent of commenters who cannot be improved upon – until tomorrow.
#15 ex. Marie Claude:
……re your…..”it’s not the social welfare that bankrupted countries it’s the euro….”
That’s nonsense. The Euro is merely an unwanted, no-confidence-vote, printed, token, medium of exchange.
Thatcher’s Rule is Europe’s problem….you’ve simply run out of other peoples’ money…everyone simply cannot continue eating that same quantity of cake provided by those precious few others’ labor.
For all the horrors about to befall them Greece is a sideshow. Watch Italy. They are on the mainland of Europe.
And let’s not forget to ask ourselves where immigration, legal and illegal has fit into this scenario. Greece has an unknown but large population of illegals who are many of the ones going to those soup kitchens. They occupy places in social services that would normally be given over to native Greeks.
Even 10 years ago Greeks were complaining about Albanians and there were people from Africa selling pens in the street. Before the Euro Greece was cheaper than the rest of Europe and in only a year or two prices rose sharply. If Greece leaves the Euro their debt will rise even more as the Greek currency will fall.
“Nearly all of Europe sucks. Income taxes range from 60% to 8o% depending on what country you live in”
Where did you get these figures from? I’m a Brit and you’d need to be earning some seriously grand salary to pay this type of tax.
British income tax, for the average earner,is around 20%.
No Worries Mates! The Great Administration of Divine Justice (AKA Karma) is about to take place in The Big Easy. I keep telling people to not piss off Santa Claus and yet they keep doing it. “When will they ever learn, when will they ever learn?”
http://tinyurl.com/7eagusj
Skewering the American Trial Bar before the whole world? PRICELESS!
MachiasPrivateer: To medicate, or not to medicate, that is the question.
45. Eggplant
Your working assumption is ENTIRELY wrong.
The crux of Iceland was ICESave — an internet bank scam that was created by Russian Mafia players.
Until that scam Iceland had a AAA reputation, sort of the Swiss in the Arctic.
ICESave conned British and Dutch depositors/ suckers into advancing monies so as to take advantage of a sweet bump in interest rates; 25 to 50 basis points, IIRC.
The Russians had gained effective control of the institution — and looted it silly — granting themselves massive ‘loans’ against sham assets.
The perps ran off to Moscow. Iceland sent a delegation to Russia in an attempt to get the money back. Putin stiffed them. They’d paid their cut to the supreme mafia don — him.
Warrants have been cut — but Putin won’t extradite.
Britain and Holland twisted Nordic wrists in an attempt to get the tiny nation to cover for the fraud that occurred right under their own noses. The powers that be had been sitting on their tushes even as ICESave accumulated INSANE deposit levels at a tempo it couldn’t possibly employ in a world that paid less on investment grade debt than ICESave was offering.
This ONE super-fraud utterly dominates the Icelandic tale of woe.
The average Icelander never even knew of the ICESave gambit — since it was not promoted within Iceland.
By comparison, ICESave flooded the media in Holland and Britain.
As for the suckers: they were entirely unaware that ICESave had NO official sponsorship. Such a claim is impossible to make for the regulators.
Yeap, the British and Dutch authorities entirely screwed the pooch. They were so clueless they didn’t block mega-wire transfers in the final hours.
For some strange reason the financial press in Britain is VERY slow to get to the bottom of this barrel of stink.
I’d say it’s radioactive — even Polonium.
And we all know how that story ends.
At least we know deficit spending doesn’t mean anything. Besides, we grow our own money and that makes us an economic powerhouse. You betcha.
There’s only one solution for these Europrogressives:bring back stalinism and end social exclusion! Really, the stupidity of the Europeans is both criminal, and terminal.
Probably the best thing for Greece would be to accept their lumps, default, leave the Euro, and accept a lower standard of living while they still have some economy left. Since there is no sign that the Greek government will do that things will have to wait until the next election at which point the EU government will have the unenviable choice of cancelling the elections, accepting default, or trying to control a revolution in a member state with no army. I predict that there will be massive scapegoating and that the rest of the EU will be facing a flood of refugees.
A system that can not be sustained will not be sustained.
15: it IS the social welfare.
Tell me how you progress throwing all your money at those least able to a damn thing with it but party and procreate.
Give to the makers, not the takers. The poor will always be with us. We don’t, however, have to join them, nor do we need to quit making the world a better place just to ensure that the least capable live a luxurious life.
You don’t have to believe me. Reality is b1tch-slapping your a$$ even as we speak.
“Seems like one way or another at least 30% of the current population is going to have to make alternative accommodations”
If I was an enterprising reporter I’d be working the phones to find out if the families of the senior pols were leaving. And where they are going.
With all the anti-Americanism coming from Europe leading up and during the Iraq War, the world’s smallest violin now plays upon my shoulder.
I always said one day the Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapateros of the world would come groveling…We should take the time to drop trou and tell them to kiss our collective *ss when they come looking for a handout.
The carbon taxes on her one ticket is $2000. Being that she is traveling with husband that means they have to cough up $4000 for two free tickets just to visit England.
Taxes, fees, charges and surcharges are often more than half the fare but there’s no such thing as $2000 carbon tax at British Airways or any other European airline. The fuel surcharge is usually more than the other charges and taxes combined.
RWE @ 47 said:
“Greece is expected to be forced to set up a separate account that would ensure it services its debt. This escrow account would give legal priority to debt and interest payments over paying for government services. …. The escrow account would, however, be an unprecedented intrusion into a sovereign state’s fiscal affairs and could ultimately see Greece forced to pay interest on its debt before paying salaries to teachers and doctors.”
I also saw this. Allegedly this deal was supposed to save Greece from default. No rational political process would agree to this sort of loss of sovereignty. The Greek government has been given an offer that it MUST refuse. After the Greeks refuse, the Northern Europeans can then pull the plug and allow Greece to default in late March. Supposedly the Northern Europeans have already fire-walled Greece and prepositioned themselves for a Greek default. Allegedly for the last 6 months the Northern Europeans have been stalling to enable setup of this firewall. Now that it’s setup, the Greeks can go to hell. Where it gets interesting is if the Northern Europeans have outfoxed themselves, i.e. the dominoes start falling due to the Greek collapse but somehow the dominoes get outside of the firewall. The people who set this deal up were Ben Bernanke class financial geniuses. They’re good but there are limits to how smart mere human beings can be. I suspect there is no way they could have completely fire walled off an entire national economy such as Greece. In a little over a month, we will know.
Marie Claude @ 46, I do not doubt for a minute that the Goldman Sachs Corp., alias “the vampire squid” is utterly evil. However the Greek debacle was a European foul up and not an American construct. Maybe after the fact, Goldman Sachs saw an opportunity to suck some blood. That’s what they’re good at.
Years ago, I enjoyed touring Greece. I particularly enjoyed the Peloponnesos which offered excellent tourist value for the money. The Greeks are wonderful people and Greek food is among the world’s best. Maybe after the Greek economy implodes and they go back to the Drachma, I’ll be able to afford traveling in Greece again.
Don’t worry about Greece, with all the exposure to bad Eurozone debt Goldman Sachs and the other TBTF banks have, when the time comes the Feb WILL bailout Greece and stiff us all with the bill.
Look at the trillions of dollars of wire transfers the Fed has been sending to the European Central bank in an attempt the “kick the can” just past the 2012 Presidential Elections.
It would be good karmic justice if the first act of Obama’s second term is ANOTHER jumbo Wall Street bailout followed immediately after by persecutions of OWS and the throwing of these “useful idiots” feet first into the wood chipper.
Random Blowhard
exactly,
EU,is a american schema since the beginning when Churchill and Roosevelt started the Atlantic Alliance, and when Truman implemented the Marshall plan with the condition of making a Union, we would know if we weren’t the US vassals, then NATO would have been dismentled when the Warsaw pact wwas.
http://germany.usembassy.de/eu_presidency/milestones.htm
Though, now, that Germany has become a proheminent economical power, Germans think to get rid of this US pression, remember, this has been a remnent dream, Bismarck and the Kaiser, Germany had a plan to invade the US
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/may/09/kateconnolly
Hello Oscar, I prefer your former nic !
hmm you have a gloomy view of our continent, but it might become true if things don’t improve
MC – “…So seing the number of Goldman & Sachs boys in EZ, EU, Draghy at ECB, Monti at the head of Italy’s goernment, Papademos at the head of Greece’s… and many others that aren’t in the medias topics… the whole euro thing was a bankers decision from your side of the pond !”
haha. You talk as if it were rape, when in fact it was consensual sex.
56. Charlie Griffith
no, I maintain it’s a banks leverages problem for us and a euro that is overrated for our economy, but still favorable for Germany, who would have had to “freeze” her DM value, like Switzerland had to last year, because Swiss couldn’t sell their merchandises anymore, too expensive !
Of course our next goverments will have to cut some social spendings, because of a growing unemployment, and that that our economy isn’t based on industry like in Germany, but on services and agriculture, which clients are on dollar value markets
74. Louie723
yes, but we were only allowed to watch our elites doing parties in their palaces
70. Eggplant
your analyse is correct
Well, drowning Greece will have more consequenses than the enlighteneds in Francfurt club are expecting, it will become a drowning of the Balkans economies too, then hello Terrorism, we didn’t need that in Europe, we have enough of ME one
“yes, but we were only allowed to watch our elites doing parties in their palaces”
That is true all over the world, we all get to watch the elites party. But back in the 80′s I heard Europeans of every class singing hosanna’s to the New Europe. everyone. Only now has it become an American plot. My how recollections do change.
78. Louie723
that’s true, but whad only official infos available then, now we cand digg infos from everywhere with Internet, and finally understand that we were all trapped into a bigger schema
“If you look at the highlighted area, you will see that the total value of Credit Default Swaps for 2011 is a staggering $32,409 BILLION dollars! That is $32 TRILLION, with a “T”! To put this into perspective the gross domestic product (GDP) of the United States in 2010 — the total value of all the goods and services generated in the entire country that year — was $14.6 trillion. The amount of credit default swaps held by the banks dwarfs the entire economic output of the United States. There is no way in hell that these banks could ever pay even a small fraction of these claims. The TOTAL amounts of derivatives is a staggering $707 TRILLION plus a measly few hundred billion more. This entire system is a house of cards just waiting for a single card to fall. There is not enough money on this planet to cover these contracts.
A report by the Comptroller of the Currency has the nation’s five largest banks — JPMorgan Chase, Citigroup, Bank of America, HSBC, and Goldman Sachs — holding nearly 95 percent of the industry’s total exposure to derivatives contracts. This means the 5 largest banks are on the hook for over $30,000 billion for just the CDS they issued.”
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article33140.html
MC – you got it!
The numbers are just incomprehensibly large, and there is absolutely no way to prop them up to avoid default. And to think B of A was allowed this year to put the rights of its $78 Trillion in derivatives ahead of it’s depositors claims in case of default, courtesy of the Banking Reform Act of 2005. The vampire squids have won. We are all slaves. Most of us just don’t know it yet.
From the End the Illusion website of Rudy Avizius, author of the Market Oracle article on BIS report @80:
There will be solutions that progressives will support some and solutions that they will oppose. There will also be solutions that conservatives will support and solutions that they will oppose. This probably means that they will be just about right. There will be opportunities to discuss and critique the submitted ideas and comments.
The insights of both the progressive and conservative thinkers is needed to create a balanced approach that will ultimately result in effective policies. The progressives have been at the forefront of human social development from the Magna Carta to the Civil Rights movement. It was the progressives that eliminated child labor, eliminated slavery, fought for women’s right to vote, just to name a few examples. However, we also need the conservatives to keep the movement from evolving into a total socialist state where individual initiative is stifled and dependence on the state has the effect of increasing the state’s power over the members of the society.
His statement is likely too simplistic to satisfy political historians, but the emerging ‘movement(s)’ will be constituted in some ‘third way’ space (likely fourth and fifth versions before stability returns.)
Funny things happen on the way to the quorum.
Nearly thirteen years on, and the Serb-bashing never ends:
“To the Left, the real problem with Europe was that it could not rid itself of the last taint of capitalism. Cohen recalls his conversation with “Liana Kanelli, spokeswoman for the Greek Communist party, about her country’s crisis”:
‘[S]he flew off into a rage about how the 1999 Nato intervention to stop Serb nationalists slaughtering Kosovo Muslims was an imperialist plot to extend capitalism into the Balkans.’”
While I’d be the last person to defend communists (Greek or otherwise), the NATO intervention was not perpetrated to extending capitalism into the Balkans. It was a failed attempt to appease the Muslim world by allowing a Muslim narcoterrorist stronghold to become established in Europe. It was also a public relations move to bolster the Clintons’ image after the impeachment, and to keep the media from focusing on Juannita Brodderick’s allegations of rape.
The accusation of “Serb nationalists slaughtering Kosovo Muslims” was, and is, a lie. The US/NATO/EULEX occupation has had well over a decade to come up with some credible evidence of that, and they remain empty-handed. Any news that casts doubt on the official story (such as organ trafficking) is carefully kept out of the news, at least on this side of the pond.
Obviously, Europe and the world would be a much safer place nowadays if the Serbs had actually done what they had been accused of doing, but that is an argument for another day.
Marie Claude – “The value of the CDS is $32 Trillion.”
That is there paper value, the scary thing is there real world market value is ZERO. Why? Simple, how are you going to be paid when ALL your counter parties are INSOLVENT and as such have NO MONEY to pay you?
ALL the major european banks are INSOLVENT. Why? They are leveraged on average 35:1 and there capital buffer consists of PIIGS DEBT which is going to ZERO.
Germany’s largest listed bank Deutsche Bank is leveraged over 45:1 and is full of PIIGS debt.
During the FIRST leg of the economic collapse in 2008 banks that were leveraged over 25:1 became instantly insolvent, Citigroup, Goldman Sacks, JPMorgan, Bear Stearns, Lehman Bros all went bust. Unfortunately for Bear and Lehman they were not TBTF.
It took 36 MONTHS for Greece to go from AAA to failing state. We lost OUR AAA rating ~ 6 months ago. I bet Obama can destroy the United States faster than the socialists in Greece could.
Obama the Black Juan Peron.
The United States of Zimbabwe = 4 more years, Change your getting and if you vote for him, change YOU deserve…