The truth shall set you free and the apparent truth is that Anders Behring Breivik, the man who planted the car bomb in Oslo and massacred scores of young people, had no apparent relationship to any Islamic organization. On the contrary, he wrote a manifesto (warning the authenticity has not been verified) emblazoned with a cross, declaring his intention to start a European Civil War. And he did it in the name of ideas which many persons who have accounted themselves reasonable might have agreed with in parts.
This “civil war” would come in three phases, he predicts. The first runs through 2030 and includes “open source warfare, military shock attacks by clandestine cell systems (and) further consolidation of conservative forces.”
Between 2030 and 2070, he calls for “more advanced forms of resistance groups (and the) preparation of pan-European coup d’etats.” The final stage features the deposition of Europe’s leaders and “implementation of a cultural conservative political agenda.” …
Advertisement“The situation is just chaotic,” he writes, noting that “thousands of Muslims” are coming into his country annually. “These suicidal traitors must be stopped.”
It contains an extensive preliminary section detailing the historical path of the conflict between Islam and Christendom, going so far as to remind us why the Knights Templar, Hospitallers and the Teutonic Knights were founded and recasts his movement as reincarnation of that effort. In order to describe why it is needed he turns to Robert Spencer, Bat Ye’or, Bruce Bawer, Timothy Garton Ash, Walid Shoebat and various other commentators on the current War on Terror to say that a toxic mix of multiculturalism, Marxism and Islam are the reasons why today’s Europe “is burning”.
Q: Some will claim that you are Christian fanatics, just as hateful and intolerant as Al Qaeda. How would you react to accusations like that?
A: The PCCTS, Knights Templar is a European indigenous rights movement and a Crusader movement (anti-Jihad movement), a part of the pan-European and national resistance movement. In a way it is a conservative revolutionary movement. By propagating and defending Christendom we simply mean that we want to halt the cultural Marxist/multiculturalist attacks and systematic deconstruction on our Christian cultures and the Church itself and to reverse the de-Christianisation of Europe. The biggest threat to Europe is the cultural Marxist/multiculturalist political doctrine of ”extreme egalitarian emotionalism”. This type of political stance involves destroying Christendom, the Church, our European cultures and identities and opening up our borders to Islamic colonisation. The Islamisation of Europe is merely a ”secondary infection”. Western Europe has grown weak and decadent and will be completely annihilated culturally unless we succeed to implement a second European renaissance and reverse the damage done. History has shown again and again that you cannot co-exist peacefully with Islam. The only thing you can do is to isolate it as our forefathers have done for the last 1400 years.
Burning. And he wants to bring it on. In short, if his manifesto is authentic, Breivik believes a twisted version of what many people who have opposed the Marxist and Islamic tendencies of recent years have argued to be true. He goes further than most by declaring his willingness to work with European neo-Nazis.
Q: Considering the fact that you may be willing to fight alongside so called neo- Nazis against cultural Marxists under extreme circumstances, doesnt that make you a neo-Nazi or a neo-Nazi sympathiser?
A: First of all, I don’t consider 70-80% of so called neo-Nazis to be actual Nazis, but rather misguided individuals. I believe many of these youngsters have made an unfortunate mistake by being drawn to the Nazi symbols due to lack of alternatives and because it is the strongest and most well known anti-Marxist banner. But I don’t believe the majority of so called neo-Nazis really support the slaughtering and genocide of all Jews, a one party state and an imperialistic policy of conquest. I believe they are just bewildered nationalists in search for uniting factors. In their frustration they have chosen the most despicable banner available as a way of saying a big “fuck you” to the current establishment. But I am well aware that 20-30% of them really hates Jews and support most aspects of national-socialism. This shouldn’t be tolerated and we shouldn’t sympathise with them whatsoever. Driven by their Jew hate, these Nazis are willing to take side with Muslims in order to accomplish their goals. They are absolutely blinded by this hate.
Breivik is the mirror product of an increasingly rising tension in the world today. Under the seemingly placid exterior of Western Europe, the old devils lurk. And from those memetic caverns the Jihad has spawned an antithesis whose elements are sometimes rational and some not entirely so. Or perhaps the fires simply the Jihad to come out again. Whatever the case, they’re here. There will be many calls in the following days to clamp down on “hate speech” as if by doing so it could bank the fires which Breiviks tapped to justify his criminal behavior. Except that the fires a real and not the less so for having criminals like Breivik act upon them.Now both the Jihad and the West must admit that they have militants in their ranks. The age of innocence in the anti-Jihad movement is at an end. As with Islam, the West must now acknowledge that it harbors the fires that burn no less hot than al-Qaedas. Will it be Harper’s Ferry moment or another Oklahoma City bombing incident. Whichever it turns out to be, the sadness has just begun.
Perhaps it is too early to intrude upon Norway’s grief, but there is something they will need to thing about soon:
Every Jihadi in the world has now discovered that one man with a gun in Norway can kill 100 people completely unopposed, be arrested without violence, and be released after 21 years.
No need to die with your suicide bomb. No need to plant bombs which might not go off. No fear an incensed mob might tear you to pieces. No fear the police might shoot you.
Call it an unintended consequence. There will be copycat attacks.
This guy thinks that what he did is fighting? My Teutonic Bullshit meter redlines when it gets near the words that are alleged to be his manifesto. It’s the Mitford Sisters all over again. Which daft Mitford sister is this guy – Diana or Unity? I don’t believe he is a new phenomenon. These mystic Teutons never went away. What’s new is that the Barbaric Islamists have given the Mystic Teutons a licence to come out and play. The Teutonic Ape is the mirror image of the Barbaric Islamist.
The Ape and the Barbarian will draw strength and power from each other. We, the Shire folk, have been there before and we are always the ones who must end up fighting the evil Ape and the evil Barbarian at the same time. We are the ones who eventually give up everything in order to neuter these bastards. It never ends.
Now that the Jews and their leftist fellows have total control of the West they will have chance to reflect on the quote, “You can do anything with bayonets except sit on them”.
In the civilized world, we capture and punish our violent crazies. In more barbaric places they name streets after theirs.
In Norway this creep attacked children. How the hell do you get from protecting western culture to shooting children? The Islamists at least have a kinda sorta strategy about kafrs cringing in fear to create a new caliphate or something. What could this vicious moron even hope to accomplish, except to demonstrate beyond doubt that there are those for whom hanging is too good? Norway is a free country. He thinks he’s going to make it freer? How’s that supposed to work? There cannot be many to whom this makes any sense.
People, as a whole, cannot cope with the kind of stress the politicians have forced on them. The fecklessness, the greed, the corruption, the lack of morality and coupled with non-existent will at the “top” is destroying what maintains the already tenuous equilibrium of normal life. People will act and act out in order to relieve the psychological pressure. The world expects it of the cowboy Americans, but not the civilized, reasonable, balanced, virtually anesthetized Norwegians. Which should suggest just how dire the situation is.
The moral question has to be: is there anything that I wrote, said or implied which have directly or indirectly worked on this man’s diseased mind and impelled him to kill kids? And the answer has to be potentially yes; and even if the answer is empiricially no (for I did not see any references to this site in his manifesto) the answer could have been yes.
Of course anything you say can unpredictable effects on a madman. And although that fact can be justified to say, “well I did nothing out of the ordinary but think clearly” that is cold comfort. The fact is that it isn’t just bullets that go astray. Ideas can be just as deadly.
About the only thing you can do is the fact and live with it. Act or speak and there will be consequences: wrong consequences, unintended consequences, wholly perverse consequences, but consequences all the same.
One of the themes of this site has always been that the King’s Justice must be seen as effective if “private justice” and vigilanteeism or policy in extremis is to be forestalled. To the perils of letting the “youth” run amuck is now added the peril of letting the other kind of “youth” run amuck in their own deadly way.
Readers will remember my counter-argument to the supposition that a group of Islamic scientists could make a private nuclear or biological weapon was there was nothing to prevent the other kind of youth from doing exactly the same thing and doing it far more effectively.
The only way the genie is going to be put back into the bottle is to restore the supremacy of the King’s justice.
When we stopped stringing up people like the Weather Underground and the Black Panthers, we basically guaranteed that some day something like this would happen.
This man is no Christian.
I can live in the garage and drink gasoline, but that doesn’t make me a Corvette. He can call himself a Christian, but his actions belie his words.
That being said, we must have a nation of laws. Free speech is no crime, but actions must be punishable by law, and punished, or there is no end in sight for the violence.
Wretchard @ 6:
Yes, my old hobby horse favorite phrase, “Justice must not only be done it must be seen to be done.” I’ve read that the most the Norwegians can do to him is 21 years in prison. Law will be seen to be done but probably no justice.
Johnathan Levy @ 1. Ayup. Kind of reminds me of the Fort Hood massacre. Only with a slower response time. We’ve had crazies snap in the US and try to kill a lot of people but except for that cluster fark at Columbine the police response or private citizens bring them to an end fairly quickly. The spree at the university in Virgina, a gun free zone, also comes to mind. It won’t be just the Jihadies taking inspiration from this. All kinds of goblins will decide to go out in a blaze of gory then three hots and cot.
Can the Norwegians crack down on their far right crazies without equally cracking down on their far left and Muslim wacko’s. Gonna be hard to do.
There is probably going to be some puckering on the Norwegian left now that they realize they are just as fair game as the Jews and there are no “safe” areas.
I’m pretty sure this goblin was getting off sexually while gunning helpless kids down. Interesting in that all the old cliches are popping up, “He seemed like a regular guy.” No prior police troubles reported, yada,yadda.
Richard,
I’ve been thinking about something these last few days that has serious bearing on this matter. Since the 60′s there has been, on the left, the “by any means necessary” attitude toward obtaining their political and social goals. No demonization of the right was too dirty or too dishonest as to be “beyond the pale” when it came to attacking the political opposition. The left have used every underhanded trick in the book and been quite successful with them in that they’ve been stopped on occasion but never forced to cede territory gained.
This incident in Norway may be emblematic of two things. First, that the left have finally pushed their endlessly demonized opponents into the same “by any means necessary” thinking, and second, that there aren’t any bounds anymore to the political warfare. It’s war to the knife and valuable soft targets are now begging to be hit. Breivik had to know that there wasn’t anything else he could have done that would have struck the Labor Party, both leadership and rank-and-file, harder. Killing an equal number of Muslims would have had nowhere near the same effect. Killing the sons and daughters of the governing party was intended to be a terrorist (freedom fighter?) act against them because he sees them as traitors. His act was horrific but I suspect he sent exactly the message he originally intended the Norwegian left to get.
In the U.S., those lefties that bussed in several hundred union members to demonstrate on the private lawn of a banker’s home this year thought that they were the only ones who got to play the “let’s get personal” card in political warfare. I think Mr. Breivik just showed that that street runs both ways. Since atrocity tends to breed atrocity, I’d say we’re nowhere near hearing the end of this. The one thing you can absolutely be sure of is that it is going to get a lot worse before it gets better.
Let’s see if this interesting piece of the puzzle, the attacker’s “Good work-out buddy”, gets any attention after this initial noting of it:
From the BBC account:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14259989
A school friend told Norwegian TV he did not recognise him as the boy he knew.
“One of his good work-out buddies was from the Middle East, and it seems as though they were good friends all through junior high school, and hung out a lot together,” Michael Tomala said.
“It seems as though he has taken a completely different direction than what we knew of him from junior high school.”
Let the conspiracy theory spinning begin:
http://www.constitution.org/ocbpt/ocbpt_06.htm
http://www.jaynadavis.com/highlights.html
The farther out the outliers lie, the farther out the inliers can lie without being outliers. That is to say, this kind of stuff will get a lot of attention, as it should, and various other dangers, not being so bloody, will be overlooked. “After all, it’s not as if he/they shot a bunch of kids.”
Hard to say at this point what set this guy off. The first government response, supported by the chattering classes, will be to restrict speech. This locks down a social safety valve, convincing most citizens that,not only cannot the government protect their women from rape gangs, the government is at best trying to ignore them, if not enable them. The King’s Justice can’t be seen to be done if the crime is not acknowledged in the first place.
Lucy @6 has got the nub of the issue:
destroying what maintains the already tenuous equilibrium of normal life
This is precisely what is motivating the jihadis (their normal life is being wiped out before their eyes); and Stolkholm Syndrome (how apt?) now promoted to a virtue by the new elitist Western Kings is destroying the tenuous equilibrium of Western normal life.
Anders Breiveik has shown how tenuous is the rule of Kings who will not rule in the interests of their subjects.
ADE
Madmen to the left, madmen to the right, so it will always be. I’d wager that Breivik, like McVeigh, has no real ties to Christianity, i.e., doesn’t attend a Church, lives out a non-traditional DIY sort of belief-system unrelated to the actual historic Christian faith. Madness is singular, so Breivik will have no descendants. His “movement,” like Kaczynski’s, is dead upon arrival. It is morally repulsive to sane persons, whatever political policy they pursue.
OTOH, Hezbollah, Hamas, al-Qaeda, the Muslim Brotherhood, etc. are not singular and are not the work of madmen. These groups rejoice in the singular Western madmen on whom the West will fixate in a dopey sense of “terror equivalency.” It provides cover for the continued development of true terror cells, mostly in Islamic countries, but also in the West.
Does no one wonder what became of this man’s conscience, the inner voice that speaks softly and says, “No. That’s wrong.” None of my firearms would ever murder the innocent, as they all have a conscience fastened firmly in the hand gripping them.
Sudden-crusader-syndrome?
I think the Harper’s Ferry moment was the 1983 Beirut bombing of our Marine barracks.
Unfortunately, there was no follow up response by the US Government.
I’m not quite sure of the meaning of #6 wretchard’s concern over whether any word or act on his part was causal to this individual’s actions.
Such a direct, mechanical ‘kinetic’ mode of causality: word–>act may be operative within a military command but not in normal life. So, I’m puzzled by such a suggestion.
The ‘King’s Justice’ refers to the rule of law about actions but doesn’t explore causality. And it’s causality that is important.
I think that #5 Lucy has a point: societal stress. Although I don’t think the stress comes from the greed and corruption of the politicians but from a deeper societal and demographic stress. What we are seeing in the world is a tectonic shift in population demographics, where the peoples of one sociopolitical realm are moving into the sociopolitical realm of another.
The two don’t mix; there are no normative modes of belief and behavior common to both; indeed, they are polar opposites.
You have the Islamists, who are tribal rather than civic, who measure loyalties to tribe rather than nation, who reject individualism, reject democracy, reject the capitalist private market, reject the use of reason and science in favor of dogma and submission to a metaphysical force, and, who expect the same metaphysical force (god/statist government) to support and economically sustain them.
You have Western culture, which is a civic mode, based around individual self-responsibility and self-reliance, based around reason, science, the notion of technological progress, freedom of thought and speech, and a free market capitalism, the separation of church and state (i.e. dogma does not trump free speech and reason and democracy).
These two populations, kept isolate from each other prior to the world wars, are now meeting up – with the massive migration of the tribal Islamists to the West. There is obviously nothing in common. The Islamists have arrived with the declared intention of imposing their tribal mode on the West.
At first, the West, viewing the arrival as mild ‘cultural diversity’ akin to exotic food and clothing booths at the local fair…accepted the influx under the term of ‘multiculturalism’. Then, as the incomers pressed for more recognition within the law (Wretchard’s rule of law)…the West relaxed its rules and began to privilege the incomers with ‘human rights legislation’ and special dispensations at work and school.
Then, the bombings and killings began, with the newcomers insisting that their rule of law (Sharia) and their mode of life would become supreme in the land. A critical threshold had been crossed..and the West began to fight back. The laws against Sharia, against burkhas and veils are spreading across Europe. However, it is slow, and, the Islamists use our rule-of-law against the West, insisting that their mode of life is not a culture but a religion and must be privileged.
And, we are seeing individuals who have reached their own critical threshold and are taking matters into their own hands. This Norway tragedy will not be the last..as the meeting of this two totally opposite modes of life, the tribal MidEast, trapped in the 7th century..and the modern West..meet up.
This strikes me as a copycat crime. Car bombs and wearing a police uniform to gun down children are the mark of Islamic Fascists.
The Islamic Fascists have been doing this for decades and the official response within the West has been to speak soothing words about how we are not at war with Islam and how “gathering up people from all around the world and placing them in Gitmo” is the real crime.
This horrible crime is a way of saying, “It works for THEM. How would you like it if someone ELSE did it?”
The end of innocence indeed. We must become an armed society, as in anywhere at any time.
My vote is for Oklahoma City bombing.
What is ironic is that this nutter has acted to support Islamic extremeism by his actions. The very sub-set he attacked will use his attack to explain away the Jihadists.
They might be right.
I will argue against that based on the fact that Christian nutters act alone against the teachings of their God. Islamic nutters act within the framework of their religion. That is a huge difference, although the Left will not recognise it.
If you believe in that nonsense, Christian mass murderers burn in hell, Islamic mass murderers go to Paradise.
Everything that Wretchard has said argues against how this person acted. To blame those sane conservative voices calling for the restoration of a society that values human life individual creativity rational analysis honest debate and the rule of Law is as insane as blaming the fire truck for the existence of fires. Some people have drifted off into romantic speculations in the comments about civil wars past and future that could be seen as undercutting our host’s message. That is why he began closing threads.
What we need are politicians who can articulate the virtues of traditional American values and how revolutionary they are as well as the commonality of the ideologies of the Left and Islamist totalitarians. The golden thread is the distinction between Us and Them and in this case someone crossed the line and acted according to their values and not ours. For that reason I am requesting a dispensation to repost my comment from the bottom of the last thread.
A climate of lawlessness infects an entire society. The passing psychopath can appear at any time or place. In a healthy society the vast majority who are sane and functional induce those who are at risk but not obviously Giffords shooter deranged to outwardly conform. Perhaps over time the damaged and marginal decay into alcoholism without becoming a murderous menace.
Islam changes things by enabling those potentially dangerous persons present. It also relies on mechanisms of subterfuge solipsism and authoritarianism that corrupt the pillars of rationality needed to sustain a successful law abiding society that discourages marginal members from resorting to violence.
Socialism similarly promotes irrationality as well as arguments based on unique identifiers for special grievance pleading and the glorification of charismatic Leaders who resort to violence.
It doesn’t excuse his actions, but I wonder if this would have happened had governments taken appropriate steps against the Islamic jihadists.
I smell the same smoke that wafted over Europe almost exactly a hundred years ago. The rise of Hitler was facilitated by a couple of decades of hand wringing by the traditionalists in Germany who correctly saw an assault on their civilization by the modernity that had come to permeate Weimar, even more than such centers of relative decadence as Paris, with the Jews in the vanguard of the arts, sciences, and philosophy. Another word for modernity is secularism.
It’s not at all true, as suggested above, that the separation of church and state means that “dogma does not trump free speech and reason and democracy.” It means that the dogma of modernity/secularism is enshrined as the state religion, and that all other beliefs must go. It’s naive to think that the forces of western tradition and Christianity will just sit idly by and not react, and unfortunately violence seems always to be part of the response.
Perhaps we’ll be lucky this time around and will just see occasional outbursts like this or the killing of Dr. Late Term in church a few years back. Maybe we here in America still believe we have a political solution to the problem, whereas in Norway secularism has a stranglehold and such actions are more likely to occur.
All we can say for sure is that we’ve seen a version of this movie before.
Interesting that this happened, not in evil, racist America, but in one of those Scandanavian countries the American left is always holding up as an example of successful socialism. I’ve often wondered if racial and cultural homogeneity didn’t contribute to that success. The US, despite what our leftist critics believe, has always been a full-on multi-culti freakshow. We whine about immigrants and their bizarre cultures, sometimes discriminate against them, sometimes pass laws against them, but ultimately they find a place for themselves here. Few of them go rushing home complaining about their treatment at the hands of the evil, racist Americans. Norway, with its official policy of multiculturalism, wants to accomplish the same thing but without the friction and ugliness. Let’s keep it all nice and civilized. Evidently, some Norwegians are not ready to do that. The question is, how many feel that way?
Bruce Bawer explains how Norway, the self-proclaimed “peace nation,” is turning belly-up to Islamicists and allowing the Islamicization of their country:
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/a-double-tragedy-for-norway/
“Will it be Harper’s Ferry moment or another Oklahoma City bombing incident. Whichever it turns out to be, the sadness has just begun.” Wretchard
Actually it has been sad for quite some time now
OK here’s my version.
He has his narrative, whether it is icey truth or firey nonsense hardly matters. The question is, does it *suggest* copy-cat murders, sudden crusader syndrome, or is that indeed copying the problem and not solving it? Or, maybe he knows it’s a poor solution, but it’s the best he can individually do. And so many people just talk, and nothing really happens. Worse, if you talk about it too much, you get arrested, even preferentially, as a nutter, or the bad guys target you, as they should, strategically.
Then there is this Norwegian context – they have no framework for evaluating his crime, just as they have no framework for evaluating the threat of Islam. Can he serve as their wake-up call?
The worst drug in the world is believing your own hype.
I think, to a first approximation, this comes out an OKC kind of thing, an individual throws himself against the outrages of an Enemy. The reaction in the US has been to consider OKC a nutter and to attempt to tar the right with it and to tell us all to further eschew violence. No doubt that will be pretty much the MSM reaction to Breivik.
So what of it? Well, turbulence will continue.
“Everything that Wretchard has said argues against how this person acted.”
True, but … After the sorrow fades for this atrocity, these questions of portent still remain and require answers :
Q: Where does the arrival of 25,000,000 Muslims in the heart of Europe take Europe and the West? Clearly, slaughtering Leftist youth on an isolated island is a hideous and monstrous act – an act far more likely to set the anti-Jihad back on its heels once the Leftists and Cultural Marxists harness it for their purposes – this is only going to muddle matters further and marginalize the people who wish to resist Islamization without violence…
Q: If cultural Marxism is ushering in the deliberate annihilation of Western civilization — and I believe it is — what is the proper response? What will succeed in turning the tide? Is anything going to turn the tide? Should the tide even be resisted, or is resistance futile? That’s certainly what the destroyers of the West on the Left and within the camp of Islam wouldmlike us to think…
The situation is similar to that in mass shootings in the US.
In the 1960′s the Warren Supreme Court struck down the idea of protective incarceration for the mentally ill who had not already committed crimes.
This “defined deviancy down” – insanity previously thought to require professional efforts to protect both the insane and society was redefined to be merely harmless eccentricity. And harmless eccentrics have the same rights to privacy and to guns as everyone else. We all just had to learn to live with the situation – it takes a village to raise a lunatic.
But of course you can’t have nutjobs getting guns so the answer was to deny them to everyone. That did not go over well, so much so that “Gun Control” is now a forbidden term among the Left.
We ended up with a sort of Community Reinvestment Act for mental illness – government mandates that you can’t treat some people differently, so we avert our eyes from the contrary evidence, and it’s houses for the poor, several houses for the not-poor, and guns for the insane.
And this is applied multiculturally as well. You can’t assert that one kind of culture or personal behavior is better than another.
Welcome to the Wild Wild West.
The “elephant in the room” truth here is that he hated the left far more for allowing all the Muslims to immigrate than he did the Muslims, of which he had several friends. Just look at who his victims were. Muslims are not Marxists.
From what I can tell, the MSM is jumping to portray this as the actions of a typical far right racist extremist. But apparently this guy didn’t consider himself a racist or a Nazi, but this won’t stop the MSM from manipulating this disaster for their own multiculti purposes.
It is the left in Europe that have muzzled people like Breivik with all their “hate” speech laws. Just like trying to cap a boiling vessel, eventually it explodes. Americans don’t really have any appreciation for European racial “purity”. The entire continent is littered with villages and towns where people from as little as 20 miles away are considered foreigners, where families have intertwined histories going back generations. Many people in these villages rightfully do not agree with the multiculti goals of the leftists.
Breivik considers the socialists running Norwegian government to be cultural Marxists who have usurped power and are deliberately set on destroying the country in order to bring it into the new world order. Although the Norwegian socialists have not committed crimes of any where near the magnitude of the Nazis, at some point joining the resistance could well be as legitimate as joining any other resistance movement.
Wrechard calls the attendees of this Socialist Party Youth camp “children”. Breivik didn’t see it this way, and the youths were between 15 and 25 in age. I am sure in his mind they were as legitimate a target as the Norwegian resistance would have found a Hitler youth camp where youth were being turned into SS cannon fodder.
If this global economic train wreck is being orchestrated by Alex Jones’s “Globalists” then the end game will be serfdom and possibly an elite engineered die-off for the the majority of the masses. If this is the case then Breivik may simply have been premature, perhaps even the vanguard of the new Norwegian resistance.
One of the themes that has run pretty consistently throughout a great many of Wretchard’s posts has been the failure(s) of the current Western political system (dominated in most countries by socialism ranging from the soft to the hard). Gargantusaurus Civitas appears to be on its way to extinction due to OBE syndrome and that pesky little thing called human nature.
We’ve spent a lot of time on BC discussing Big State’s sclerotic inability to respond in a timely or successful manner to crises in the financial, domestic political, and international arenas.
What has been lurking all along … and maybe we discussed it recently but the thread just slipped from my recollection … is the topic of Big State’s inabililty to address societal fracturing. More to the point, Big State’s role in *causing* societal fracturing, due to its failures in the areas mentioned above.
What is government for?
It seems we keep returning to this fundamental question over and over again.
Here is the traditional American answer (the correct one, IMO) to that question:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed …
Government derives its just powers from the consent of the governed.
Government is supposed to use this power to secure the unalienable, God-given rights of its citizens.
Among these rights that government is supposed to secure (not the entire list of rights, but we can assume they were considered the most important since they are mentioned by name): Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.
The main problem with Big State is that it ends up serving itself and not its citizens — government of the government, by the government, for the government. And the more it serves itself, the more it becomes neglectful of and ultimately destructive towards those very unalienable God-given rights that it is supposed to safeguard.
How, then, can it continue to govern?
The answer is, it can’t. At least, not well, and certainly not justly. It ends up restoring to a witches’ brew of force, corruption and exploitation of ignorance in order to maintain control … but even these tactics will garnder only diminishing returns over time. Because Big State is inherently a parasitic model. Over time, the ruptures — its loss of control over events and people — will, after a period of apex of state control, begin to increase, until finally the ruptures overwhelm, like hull-crushing stage in a sub after enough rivets have blown.
So what is Breivik, besides a mass murderer? If he is completely nucking futs, then nothing. He symbolizes nothing. But if he is sane, even if he is also evil (no argument from me on that point), then his sanity counts for something. And if his sanity counts for something, then so do his observations of Norwegian society. This is not to say that we have to subscribe to his thinking of “A, therefore B” … it could be that “A, therefore C” (or even just “A, therefore x where x is non-B”) is in fact the concensus of decent people … BUT, note that “A” is not negated in this scenario.
Because there are at least two questions in play. (1) “What is wrong?” and (2) “What then must we do?”
A leftist’s answer to #1 will be radically different than the answers of conservatives and libertarians (and a fair percentage of moderates) to #1.
According to the left, “What is wrong?” gets the following routinely rotated menu of replies:
NO! The sub has not reached crush depth!
YES! There must still be a stash somewhere! Big oil! Corporate jets!
LOOK!!! Squirrel!!!
How many American citizens can at least coalesce around the answer: “Government is too d@mn big, it spends too d@mn much, and by the way, we’re broke” ?
How many Westerners can at least coalesce around the answer: “Whatever is wrong, it is NOT the Western values of (a) freedom of religion, (b) rule of law, (c) a legal right to private property, (d) the civic equality of women, and (e) government by consent of the governed —- few to none of which are true in Islamic societies” ?
***********
Breivik is, IMO, not a John Brown. Not quite a Tim McVeigh, either, although (again, IMO) his choice of targets was more calculated & focused. The kids on that island were not “collateral damage,” they were actual targets, or proxy targets.
But McVeigh and Breivik are both, I think, rivets popping.
We have not yet seen our John Brown. God help us if and when we do.
arrgh
restoring = resorting
gardner = garner
miss the edit function!
wretchard 6
“The moral question has to be: is there anything that I wrote, said or implied which have directly or indirectly worked on this man’s diseased mind and impelled him to kill kids?”
Touch of grandiosity here, Wretch? I’ve been reading you for years and I have yet to see you advocate violence on any individual or collective level to defeat the ills facing our world. Put it from your mind.
Once, when I was still in the priesthood, I preached a homily to an intimate group at a Holy Hour we sponsored. It happened that just that afternoon a certain Father John M. had died, who was a popular priest known to most in the group, I announced his death and led a prayer for the repose of his soul. Afterwards my Superior reproached me because an elderly couple had misheard, thinking that I had said that Fr. John T. had died. The couple were very sad, and moments later astonished to find Fr. T. (who had been present the whole time) right behind them. This Superior tried to make me responsible for their misunderstanding and sorrow; a ludicrous notion I roundly rejected. 10% never get the word.
The aspect of this I find most troubling is that he went and spent hours hunting down and killing kids that would have looked and sounded human to him. He was able to shut his heart to the image of their humanity, effacing their humanity with a overwhelming image in his own mind that objectified them as not human. Normally it takes a lot of training, membership is a group committed to the same ends,a high religious sanction and a strong person of authority to direct and compel that kind of action. I am interested to see if he is a member of some kind of group or a lone wolf psychopath.
If you’re looking for just what may have pushed Breivik to the place he found himself, check out this bit from a Reuters story.
At Oslo cathedral, Britt Aanes, a priest aged 42 said the fact that Breivik was Norwegian had affected people deeply.
“In one way, I think it was good that it was not a Muslim terrorist group behind this,” she said. It pointed up the complexity of immigration and inter-religious issues for Norwegians, “a small and privileged people,” she said.
“We must open our eyes and not simply think that we can keep all this wealth to ourselves.”
Absolute, utter cultural nihilism and suicide, and from a priest, and a female priest at that. If these are the sorts of people that represent the power structure — and of course they are — the real miracle is that we don’t see so much more of this kind of acting out.
Is this the first sign of the anti-gang…gang?
There is little doubt that the Marxists and jihadists have linked arms in an all out assault on Western civilization.
The differences between Breivik and McVeigh are stark. The former has formulated a kind of weird blend of Helter Skelter and a WWF smackdown of radical Islam.
Not quite sure how shooting up camping labor party children advances the “cause”, and it certainly seems a bit homebound for a “crusade”. Radical Islam invades the lands of others for its attacks, as a declaration of war. (the “holy” bit…is a tad presumptuous and is more of a cover)
Breivik represents a bullied voice, that snapped. He could not take the inequity and lies and distortions…and he built a castle in the sky and the chains of the drawbridge have broken. ALL opponents of Marxist/jihadist calumny will now be branded as “equal in terrorism, equal in religious fanaticism, equal in depravity”. It will not be so and the rage will grow even stronger, I fear.
It is important, therefore, to stand firmly against that false narrative. Even more firmly and forcefully than before this tragic event.
Bugs “The US, despite what our leftist critics believe, has always been a full-on multi-culti freakshow. We whine about immigrants and their bizarre cultures, sometimes discriminate against them, sometimes pass laws against them, but ultimately they find a place for themselves here.”
Multiculturalism worked very well for the US and can be counted as a strength until the government found out that they could profit by using other cultures as a political axe to punish their enemies. The US government is a racist organization that promotes racial disunity. It has been said that the melting pot has turned into a tossed salad.
There is nothing wrong about becoming an American, eating hotdogs, and waving the flag. Immigrants do this with great enthusiasm. It is the schmo from downtown Grimyville that just found out that he is a forth generation …fill in the blank… that is the most ardent at bringing his old culture back to the US. If he only knew why his forebears chose to escape it.
Case in point, John Papadakis was named by his father who relished the freedoms of America. His son, Petros has been steeped in a deeper Greek identity than his father. Their Greek restaurant, a mainstay for decades closed around the time the homeland was faltering. It is hard to be so ethnic for so long. Entertaining but exhausting. Being American is as easy as apple pie.
Maybe I am alone, but I ain’t buying it. Too many times in the past the authorities/media have their “man” and it turns out not to be the case. Reserving judgement on this. Seems way too pat. Seems too easy. Seems tofit a much needed narrative way too much.
The IRA needed a political and a military wing to free Ireland. The abolitionists needed a political and military wing to free the slaves, until they went 100% military in the Civil War. Perhaps…, no: opposition to Islam and Communism must be entirely peaceful.
There is no morality so enlightened that people won’t kill to impose it.
What did they do to Breivik to make him act out like that? Well, his government hates him and wants to replace him with a more genetically ethical stock. The women and man boys of his nation want to be dominated by swarthy men. Each Norwegian princess secretly wants to be defiled by a dark stranger. Their desires defile Norwegian men instead.
Too soon, or should we be still morning? OK, we are all Norwegians today.
W :“The moral question has to be: is there anything that I wrote, said or implied which have directly or indirectly worked on this man’s diseased mind and impelled him to kill kids?”
Wretchard , Tamquam is right. I have never read anything you have written that could be construed by any sane person to justify this mass murder. Unfortunately, the Left doesn’t have a monopoly on the insane. This man read some thoughtful comments by well known people and then read into them something in them that just wasn’t there. End of Story. He was a nutjob. As many others have said, Breivik greatly injured the cause he supposedly was trying to help.
What troubles me most is that a person like yourself, who has given us on nearly daily basis some tremendously enlightened commentaries on our difficult world, would think about editing your comments for fear of inspiring some nutjob like Breivik to misinterpret what you have written, and act out , based upon that misunderstanding , in a wholly inappropriate way. We cannot control how someone interprets what we write. The times we live in demand commentators who are honest and true, no matter how difficult or confrontational the subject. And no matter how some readers are willing to misuse what you or others have written.
Wretchard
“is there anything that I wrote, said or implied which have directly or indirectly worked on this man’s diseased mind and impelled him to kill kids?”
It’s a testament to personal integrity to post such an honest question in light of such a tragedy and knowing that the Left will jump on it and other writings and pronounce you “guilty” notwithstanding your introspection and conscience.
Having said that, I have to wonder whether some of the more marginalized living under Leftist hypocrisy and heavyhandedness will watch this unfair rush to judgement and begin drawing the conclusion that you are “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” or “in for a penny, in for a pound” or some such sentiment.
This leads to “if they are coming for me anyway, I might as well take as many with me as I can”
Scary times ahead.
Tarnsman – “Maybe I am alone, but I ain’t buying it.”
What if it were true. Islamists immigrate to Norway then begin to attack their women. I heard that 100% of rapes in Oslo, that is 100%, were perpetrated by Muslim males against indigenous Norwegian women. One must get the impression that they enjoy the attention and are looking for more of it.
So you Muslims attacking Europe and Crusaders, attacking Europe. What is not to believe?
It’s possible that McVeigh and this loon were solitary operators. If they were not, those who insist they were will face the same issue as if the two were lone wolves: Our lone nutcases are a hell of a lot more efficient than their lone wolves. So, if you’re going to insist, in the absence of or in contradiction to the evidence, that they were solitaries, you have to face the fact that they were very,very good at what they set out to do.
So. White guys, even nutcases, are smarter than Muslims? Nope,can’t have that. So the folks who insist it was a lone wolf type are logically forced back to having to entertain, or distract from, the argument that they weren’t loners.
Which means…?
Found this link elsewhere:
http://diversityischaos.blogspot.com/2011/07/is-anders-behring-breivik-zionist.html
I am with those commentators who have objected to the characterization of these junior members of the nomenklatura as “kids”. 16 to 25 years old. In the Europe of less than a century ago, these “kids” would have been on the front lines, doing man’s work. The deaths of young adults are no less sad than the deaths of chldren. Let’s at least give young socialists some dignity.
Not that these particular ones earned much dignity.
They were attending a socialist “Youth Camp” as part of the grind of climbing onto the ladder of access to the right colleges, the right connections, leading to eventual participation in the governing class. They saw themselves as Norway’s future leaders — yet when the test of leadership arrived, they failed.
Not a single one of them had the leadership quality to lead a charge against a hopelessly outnumbered lone gunman. Not a single one of them had the leadership quality to organize a simple encirclement of that lone individual. On a rocky Norwegian island, not a single one of those socialist youth could organize a collective rock-throwing exercise. Instead, they huddled behind trees and texted their parents.
The passengers on Flight 93 are just a dead as the passengers on the other 9/11 flights. But they died in a way that would have caused the Vikings of old to write songs in commemoration. No Viking of old would recognize what has become of his young socialist descendants.
Its back to the future all over town. At the start of the century the old Islamic crusade re-kindled. Putin then begins re assembling the Soviet Union. Now the Nazi’s are back. Waiting for reports of a strange radioactive Dinosaur crawling out of the wreckage in Japan.
6. wretchard
‘The moral question has to be: is there anything that I wrote, said or implied which have directly or indirectly worked on this man’s diseased mind and impelled him to kill kids? And the answer has to be potentially yes; and even if the answer is empiricially no (for I did not see any references to this site in his manifesto) the answer could have been yes’.
You are not guilty. You publicly advocate nothing but serious, intelligent thinking. . There are people out there whose words encourage loonies – Reverend Wright, Fire Breathing Imams, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad etc etc. Not you.
The cartoon character Popeye has it right when he declares “I yam what I yam”. Sane, generous, sensible people who write thoughtful pieces under the masthead of ‘The Belmont Club’ are sane, generous and sensible. Deluded murderers are deluded murderers. Anything written or presented in public forums is available for private use. People have used pop songs, movies and books to support murder.
Controlling the private use of public information could only be achieved through some sort of universal mind control. Human civilization would end the on day that happened. You are not responsible in any way for this guy’s actions but bless your cotton socks for worrying about it.
How do the events in Oslo compare with this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_103
If Wetchard is complicit in Breivik’s spree, then Paul McCartney is complicit in Manson’s Helter Skelter.
The Charlie’s actions were pure Charlie. Breivik’s actions were pure Breivik.
I am going to agree with 45 Kinuachdrach, but add that this was much more than an attack on children. That could have happened in any small town. It was an attack on the Norwegian ruling class; the mass slaughtering of the children of privilege; the elimination of a good chunk of the next generation of the ruling class. This was a profoundly political attack; a point which appears to increasingly be lost in the weaving of the narratives. The ruling class failed to protect their heirs, a point which will not be lost on their enemies.
Bravo 10. mac and 19. RWE. You hit the nail on the head. Quoting from Breivik’s 2083 European Declaration of Independence, page 1353: “Unfortunately, spectacular operations like these are the only way to be heard. Everything else we have tried has failed and yielded nothing. The Muslims showed us that deadly shock attacks are the only tool we have at the moment which will guarantee that our voice is heard. By forcing them to acknowledge our presence and explaining our agenda to everyone we are making it very hard for the cultural Marxist/multiculturalist media establishment to ignore the call of the free people of Europe.”
Except, as has been pointed out, you have stretched the definition of children. There was probably real children on Pan Am Flight 103.
#52
Not an equivalence. There is the possibility that ABB actually decided that killing as many as he could–the possibility was probably upwards of a hundred–of the next generation of the ruling class would cause a major change in the makeup of the government and major institutions thirty years from now. Norway has a small population and a hundred people is a very big deal, especially if they come from a tiny group–the heirs of the current ruling class. It would be interesting to see how many children the top, say, five hundred families closely associated with the party have left.
If you were to total up all the folks who’ve served in our dem cabinets, the top ranks in the dem party, the top ten appointees in the various agencies, the big shooter CEOs associated with dem-loving crony capitalism, those running the revolving door from government to the media to advocacy non-profits, and others I could think of, and see, with the help of a time machine, where their children would be at age forty, chances are a lot of them will be at the same kind of endeavor.
It is conceivable that ABB thought this was a way to empty that tiny but influential and inevitable next generation of the ruling class in a way that nothing else could.
Those slots will be filled, I can imagine him thinking, but with people not anointed at birth.
I have no idea what he was thinking, but the above scenario would fit with his lawyer’s quote of ABB that the act was atrocious but necessary. Herod took the same approach, but did so to avoid a turnover.
It would be interesting to know how far ahead he was thinking. Would this cause the major institutions to become even more supine as regards Muslims? Would that cause such an intolerable situation for ordinary citizens that the roof comes off? Would the folks who come to power during the chaos be his type?
People like this think they can alt-hist with Turtledove and the best of the sci-fi guys.
The mass murder of the sons and daughters of political and social leaders–this facet is being ignored by the mainstream press. This Norwegian’s act was not at all a copy of the Oklahoma bombing or the Virginia shootings. This mass murder is a political act quite different from the acts it is being compared to because of its precise focus on members of the elite class and no others.
Even the fact that the act took place on an island that nobody BUT the elite could access (not even the police) is significant. It shows that someone can attack the elite precisely in the places where common people cannot go and so common people will not be hurt. Such an approach to terrorism is less likely to alienate common people once they understand they won’t be hurt by it.
With regard to the bombing, the same terrorist also took care and KNEW, because he was Norwegian, that ordinary workers would already be out of the buildings he bombed because his attack was after 3:00 p.m. and the workers left at 3:00 p.m.
These facts indicate to a person who knows military strategy that the terrorist sees himself engaged in guerilla war, not terrorism.
Hmmmm, I’ve just read that the Norwegian police have made further arrests, 6 men, and are investigating another “chemical” dump find. I’m starting to wonder just how much smoke and mirrors are involved here and who is generating it. “Round up the usual suspects” or Oops, he had an Islamic buddy, or Oops, he was part of bigger right wing group, or who knows at this point?
Slightly off topic: Just what constitutes a child anymore? I’ve known 15 year olds who were more mature and responsible than I am or ever will be. I’ve known middle aged men who are still basically 12 years old. I was just reading that the master’s degree has become the new bachelor’s degree. Also an article in the Wall Street Journal, which was an interview of Bill Gates talking about his institutes moves to improve education in the US. One thing that struck me was that he said that Asian schools for the most part taught fewer math concepts but they were very thorough in teaching them however in the American math curriculum they taught more concepts but not very well. As a results the Asian kids became more proficient at math at an earlier age. I think one of the things driving this was that in some Asian nations education is mandatory only through middle school. If you are poor or don’t test out very high, it is off to the job market for you. In the West we seem to keep extending childhood through the educational system as much as anything??
Another side note: In the US teachers complain about having only the time to teach to the “middle” students at the opposing ends of the bell curve for what ever reason either can’t comprehend the lecture or are so smart they get bored out of their minds. In some Japanese schools they separate the students in to different classes in the same grade based on test scores, and the teachers drive those classes according to their abilities and needs. Class A gets higher level work, class F gets the basics ground into them. Work your butt off in Class F, test well and you get reassigned to a “higher”class. For reasons obvious to the readership that would never fly in the US.
Some stories of heroism are emerging. Notably, there was another resort island nearby, and campers there responded to the gunshots. They got in boats and went on a rescue operation plucking refugees out of the water. The effort was led by a German roofer on vacation, not by Norwegian socialist youths, though.
Let’s call a spade a spade!
If it turns out that he was killing the offspring of the political and social leaders of Norway, then that is what he was doing. It is wrong to label is as killing children when those individuals were at least adolescents if not adults in the normal meaning of the term.
#54:
So, I think we can expect the media to do one of two things:
1. Drop this hot potato
2. Highlight that this was one of those evil, blond, blue-eyed Scandinavian males who eat babies when they are not killing puppies.
I suspect that pretty quickly they will deny him his pulpit in court and perhaps declare him not mentally fit to stand trial or something.
jms @ 50: “It was an attack on the Norwegian ruling class; the mass slaughtering of the children of privilege …”
OK, so we are going to have to disagree on the definition of children. But perhaps your accurate observation points to the silver lining in the current black cloud — simple self-interest may lead the transnational Tyrant Class to start avoiding self-segregation into identifiable “nomenklatura” ghettos (aka “targets”). Maybe sending their offspring to the Friends School in Washington DC will no longer seem like such a smart idea. And if the Tyrant Class start to mix more with the People, they may see the error of their ways and cease to behave like tyrants.
t @ 55: they don’t stratify US kids by ability anymore? they sure did back in the day, at the junior high and above levels. I was smart, so I was in the “E” level classes, which we all said meant “excellerated”, showing what *that* was worth! (try “enriched”) (though if they were enriched, I pity the fools in the mere “A” curricula).
Yes, if these “kids” were 16 to 25, then that’s a different kettle of fish. Though when it comes right down to it, would it have been so much less shocking it if was an AARP camp for socialists? I gather Breivik’s bomb didn’t ask to see anyone’s ID.
If his manifesto answers some of our speculations about his motives, well, I may get around to reading it, though the single word “manifesto” says about everything you really need to know, and after that res ipsa loquitur.
40. Unsk
W :“The moral question has to be: is there anything that I wrote, said or implied which have directly or indirectly worked on this man’s diseased mind and impelled him to kill kids?”
Wretchard , Tamquam is right. I have never read anything you have written that could be construed by any sane person to justify this mass murder. Unfortunately, the Left doesn’t have a monopoly on the insane. This man read some thoughtful comments by well known people and then read into them something in them that just wasn’t there. End of Story. He was a nutjob. As many others have said, Breivik greatly injured the cause he supposedly was trying to help.
Unsk and Tamquam, count me in. Like you, I have been a fan/friend since the beginning of The Belmont Club. As I have said before I value the opinions of almost all the regular posters on this site and I share in the admiration of our host. Wretchard, you can not be remotely responsible for the actions of someone consumned by evil and mental illness.
Until today I have never read of or heard of Bruce Bower. I checked out Roughcoat’s link and read some of the from his Norske “fans” to get a read of the thinking in Norway. I must admit Bower gives interestin insight into the Home of the Nobel Peace Prize. I can see how the Leftist Humanist Norgers react to Bruce!
In the mean time I shall follow developments because this story is far from over.
Salaam eleikum friends!
bw/31; well done –finished reading it wondering, if affection for and understanding of one’s own culture is ‘racism’, how is hatred for and misunderstanding of one’s own culture not racism? After all, the two conditions are parallel structures. If drawn, parallel lines come into contact only where the medium is destroyed –only if the piece of paper is wallowed & folded into adding a dimension –at which point the lines are not really ‘finally’ in contact, but are really just gone –obliterated.
Pol-Potted plants. “What am i, chopped liver?”
54 Gloria:
“Even the fact that the act took place on an island that nobody BUT the elite could access (not even the police) is significant.”
Norway is filled with small rocky islands that are only accessible by boat. This particular one was owned by the Labor Party, but appears to have been serviced by a ferry boat, probably regularly during the summer months. The police did not have access to a boat to get to Utoya. Why not is another question. Like Cho at Virginia Tech, Brevik found another way to chain the doors of Norris Hall.
Wrethard, your self-examination and sense of conscience are proof you are not part of the problem. Words can inspire but the manner in which the inspired acts is the most telling. If Breivik was affected by something you had written the appropriate response would have been posting a comment, in support or opposition, not going off on a killing spree. He obviously believed the time for words was long past,or as others have posted, his actions would focus the leadership of Norway on the fact that some words were going unheard. That does not condone his actions, period. The ends DO NOT justify the means if the means are illegal.
The root problem facing all of us today, IMHO, is the unleveling of the playing field. Fiat law has replaced rule of law in way too many instances. That is why the class-warfare game has gained traction in the US. Stories of bank bailouts appearing on the same page as record CEO bonuses, all on the backs of the taxpayers. Congressmen and women not paying their taxes or committing crimes being rewarded with reelection. GM gets rewarded for poor business practices while their competitors see no special gain for performing better. Affirmative action replaces personal performance, the ultimate reward for hard work and the grand equalizer in a capitalist society. Atlanta school superintendent receives bonuses as a result of wide-spread cheating by those she is responsible of supervising. Regular folks keeping less and less of their own earnings so scam artists and lazy individuals can have flat-screened TVs and become obese on junk food. Unions can engage in extortion against factory owners and be rewarded by the White House by holding up the opening of a factory that would provide additional jobs. And the President speaking of shared sacrifice while lavishing his insiders and operatives with loot from the treasury and demanding still more, more! Ugh.
Still, while his actions are absolutely abhorrent, his understanding of how well terrorism has worked world-wide in giving a voice to the seemingly voiceless is complete. Only the privileged or extremely violent get any attention. How do we fix that?
Gloria, the attack had elements of both the Oka. Bombing and the Beslan attack.
Just as a point of fact, the modern terrorist was created by the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact Members as a way of waging war on NATO that wouldn’t get those crazy American Cowboys involved. In defence of the Soviets it was in response to the USA punching their paranoid button at regular intervals.
While superfically there are similarities between classic guerilla ( Spanish for ‘small war, so guerrilla war is the same as small war war) and terrorism, the differences are greater. A pure guerrilla is fought between invaders and those being invaded. Insurgency is a better word. Guerrilla efforts are mostly against the Logistic chain of the occupying power. Guerrilla IS legal so long as the G’s have an Identifying mark (Badge, armband, scarf, etc.) and obey the rules of war as defined in the Geneva Conventions.
Terrorism is distinguished by it’s targeting of non-combatants and it’s complete disregard of the Rules of war.
Confusing the two is dangerous because it lends the terrorist a legitimacy they don’t deserve. That is why the term 4th generation warfare was coined. Not only to establish a separation between insurgency and terrorism but to set up a category for other low intensity conflicts that fall short of total war. Civil War is another form of low intensity conflict cover by 4th genWar.
I would consider targeting the seed corn of the establishment to be a form of civil war.
So maybe Wretch was correct with his Harper’s Ferry/John Brown comparison. It wouldn’t be the first time he was correct about something.
More commentary elsewhere:
http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2011/07/24/norway/
speakeasy/63; How do we fix that?
Discontinue the communications industry? When this nation was born, distance equaled time at the speed of a horse.
The evening after the massacre at Virginia Tech, my wife had to walk part-way into campus to fetch me from my office because the authorities had barred cars from campus. As we walked away from campus together, my wife was overcome and began weeping. I held her as she sobbed, “How could this have happened in our little town?”
I understood her emotion, but the question was nonsense. “This” can happen everywhere today. “This” is one thing that’s going to define our age. And “this” is why I want legal concealed and open carry to spread across my country.
And wretchard, you had nothing to do with “this.”
s @ 64: Just as a point of fact, the modern terrorist was created by the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact Members as a way of waging war on NATO that wouldn’t get those crazy American Cowboys involved.
I don’t follow that.
Saboteur, assassin, anarchist, even the jihadi idea of throwing your surplus, retarded sons at the enemy – all classic ideas.
Just as berserker is a classic Nordic idea … but not supposed to happen this near the *summer* solstice, is it?
The meme seems to be becoming popular:
http://subrealism.blogspot.com/2011/07/targetting-children-of-liberal-elites.html
in a darwinian sense, the people on that island were unfit, and nature took its course.
onto my main point; notice how terrorists don’t go after politicians or business leaders? why is that? as long as they only slaughter “little people” the voice of “reason” prevails; i.e. the slaughter is allowed to continue. a perfect example of this is the ira and british government. for decades the british government tolerated the regular slaughter of british citizens, and even minor members of the monarchy (sorry lord mountbatten, you deserved better). but once the ira went after the tory leadership, the gloves came off and within weeks there was a mass slaughter of ira members — proving that the government knew where the ira were all the time.
now the ruling class in norway has been attacked from within (ethnically) because of its perceived betrayal of non-”elite” norwegians. they can try going after political organizations but will that work? not against this kind of spontaneous individual. so maybe they will be induced to address the muslim issue instead. probably they will just muddle along making a mess of things as usual, as the pressure builds within their society. in any event this attack is a symptom of something bigger and badder, bubbling away.
i expect a wave of political attacks and assinations across europe, since the electorate are completely shut out of all decision making. let the hard men return, because it has been proven that the “reasonable” men will always let the wolf in the front door.
63. speakeasy
Only the privileged or extremely violent get any attention. How do we fix that?
Nothing to fix, just opportunity to take. Rick Santelli’s rant and the formation of the Tea Party; Codevilla and his essay; Steve Mcintyre and his Climate Audit blog; all got plenty of attention.
I went through the results of all the Norwegian Parliamentary elections from 1980 – 2010. In 1989 a Norwegian political party “Stop Immigration” received 0.3% of the popular vote, but isn’t listed after that. Breivik would have been about ten years old then. So from his childhood there has been some kind of organised opposition to non-Nordic immigration. He could have become a spokesman in that movement, like Geert Wilders in Holland. Whether one agrees with Wilders or not, there goes a brave man whose ideas are influencing people.
Breivik the bushwhacker had plenty of other ways to get people’s attention. He chose bushwhacking.
This is very curious. Is there a disinformation operation being conducted? Was Breiviks’s facebook page altered after the fact?
Pamela Geller poses two interesting questions: Why did a jihad group take credit for the atrocities, and then retract? And who altered the murderer’s Facebook page?
This is starting to look really odd. It’s gotten me wondering.
All the “chestnuts” belong to the Norwegians! There’s NOTHING American about this attack, except the Norwegian elites HATRED for America! At some point? At some point this Breikvit character will be recognized as home grown! You never know, but some in Oslo may ask “where the hell did he get the money?” How come the “neghbors didn’t know?” They never saw him with a gun? They never saw him “practice?”
He bought bullets with vegetables?
Not only didn’t the police react well. What about the driver who delivered 9 tons of fertilizer?
Being the “home of the peace prize” doesn’t explain it all. Or AT ALL!
Plus, all the dead kids are kids of the elites who had this Labor camp all to themselves. There didn’t seem to be a guard house up, though … that would have kept trespassers off the island.
Josh @ 59:
When I was in school they had the separate classes for the really smart. Of course that was so far back they didn’t have Special Ed. classes. Those students went to a separate state run institution. It all depends on the school district. For gifted students there are the AP classes in some high schools, and they have trouble finding qualified teachers for those. Back in the 1980′s I was acquainted with a graduate student couple who were going to teach at a private school for “gifted” children. It seems that the inability of the public schools to “handle” those kids had created a demand. Judging from some comments that I have read and overheard there are members of the educational establishment that are actively hostile toward “gifted” students. I’ll leave it to others to analyze that.
School and childhood are ending for Norway.
Western Governments and institutions are eaten up with childish leadership.
It has been a long time since they had to react to adult responsibilities and they do everything they can to avoid it. Obama is probably the most notorious child-man who has reached a position of power in our times. A childish clique put him there, is trying to keep him there, but events and Jihadies aren’t co-operating.
@64
The Soviets were indeed masters in the black arts of terrorism and insurgency. They weren’t involved in every incident of terroristic activity, however.
Has anyone here ever heard of the Brabant Killers aka The Nivelles Gang?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nijvel_gang
A series of robberies/killings took place in Belgium back in the 1980s. The robbers raided an arsenal and then used the weapons to go into grocery stores and kill people. They’d take small amounts of money and then leave the cash somewhere where the authorities could find it. It quickly became apparent that robbery wasn’t the real motive in these crimes. Speculation soon turned conspiratorial, with sinister insinuations about Operation Gladio outfits turned rogue as well as supposed links to right-wing nationalist groups. Most of these implications seem quite left-wing in origin, not surprising when you consider how much Europe was wound up in the early 1980s about nuclear weapons and that damned old actor in the White House. Nonetheless, they never solved these murders and never made any arrests as far as I know.
There are many weird things about the Brabant killers, though. Like how they stopped for a couple of years and then started back up again. Also strange is how they located some evidence in a forest just a couple of years ago.
I don’t know…the killings in Norway made me remember these crimes. They’re not related in any way. Just thought I’d throw it out there because I’m sure some people here would be interested. I’ve never run into anyone who knows about the Brabant Killers, but it wouldn’t surprise me if several Belmont Clubbers know about them. Smart people in these here parts…
Other than the shock and grief of bereavement, what, I wonder, is going on in the minds of the elite Labor Party parents of those slaughtered Norwegian adolescents and young adults, and, for that matter, in the minds of the parents of those Norwegian adolescents and young adults who survived the ghastly mass murder on that isolated Labor Party island?
They’re angry, no doubt, and suddenly insecure, fearful, and threatened, too, for sure. Under these circumstances, then, we may expect their already endemic, virulent strain of anti-Jewish hatred to go totally ballistic now.
Two wrongs don’t make a right. Anders Breivik may hate the evil of totalitarian mass-murdering Islam, but real defenders of life and liberty do not engage in evil themselves; real Teutonic Knights are not murderers; real warriors do not murder their own people. If this sick man were really as courageous as he wishes us to think, he would already be fighting the Islamic jihadists as a Norwegian soldier. No, this man is a coward because he was shooting at children – murdering people who couldn’t shoot back. What a pathetic excuse for a real man.
mbm @ 69
I used to peruse that blog until he referred to the BC as a “den of racists” or words to that effect.
His pretentious efforts were becoming tiresome, altho his sentence structure and word usage were quite good. But I can find fancy words in the dictionary.
It was one of the sites that came up when I did a search for “Norwegian shooter targeting offspring of elites” or something like that. I have never visited it before.
The guy who owns the NorwegianShooter blog at blogspot had better delete it, though.
ABB was more assassin than terrorist.
His acts were specifically aimed at politicians ( the VBIED ) and their heirs. ( the island )
He deliberately timed the VBIED to avoid the common man — yet affect the top players.
The ‘children’ were mostly of college age — and destined to be life-long politicians — they were engaging in a political rite of passage.
——
“Anders Breivik may hate the evil of totalitarian mass-murdering Islam, but real defenders of life and liberty do not engage in evil themselves; real Teutonic Knights are not murderers; real warriors do not murder their own people.”
Have you ever heard of civil war, Storm Rider? What is civil war but the murder of your “own people”? The majority of civil war is murder, but every reader here knows that it is the victor who writes the history and decides who was a murderer and who was a “Teutonic Knight”.
Check out http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2011/07/norway-attacks-2011-view-from-ireland.html
The odd thing about Breivik, is that at least according to those who read his stuff ( see above) , was that it was not that extreme.
From Mark Humphrey’s via Gates of Vienna:
“In fact he was apparently like me — liberal right. He was anti-racist, pro-gay and pro-Israel. So how on earth did someone like that become a terrorist against the West? Perhaps he radically changed his politics since his last post to document.no in Oct 2010.”
In his manifesto he referenced Gates of Vienna 88 times and the Fjordsman 111 times. His blog posts supposedly would not lead one to expect mass murder from him. Even though he seemed from the pictures I’ve seen that he was a handsome enough guy, some have suggested he had trouble connecting to women romantically. He lived with his mother.
Several things bother me about this episode. Like many others here I’m uncomfortable how many of Breivik’s assertions I’d sympathize with. Where he and I differ 100% is what he chose to do about his beliefs. Wretchard, you spoke of unintended consequences of our actions. Believe me, the world would not be a better place without your commentary. Many people see problems and injustice in the world, they don’t decide to murder countless people to get their point across. Breivik’s actions are his alone, no one bears else bears responsibility.
I wonder what makes this man think this was the way to further his goals? Even given the biggest soap box in the world, wouldn’t any right thinking people distance themselves not only from him but beliefs they may have shared due to the heinousness of his atrocities? I think back to Bill Ayers and his fellow travelers doing the same things in the 60s/70s. What made them think that their terrorism would have the intended effect? Did killing cops and blowing up government building help bring the revolution? Did they really think it would? Or even rally a few more to the cause? Or did it just bring the wrath of police and alienate the population? Bill Ayers has not reformed and thinks he didn’t do enough back then. What between the 70′s and Clinton’s election made Ayers and his ilk stop their campaigns? Breivik has made it clear he is acting out of desperation, It would seem so was Ayers back then too. Usually I’d dismiss this guy as a pure nut, but like Wretchard what bothers me is the preponderance of his beliefs that aren’t nuts. Has postmodernism infected him so much his actions are indistinguishable from those of his enemies?
Or maybe this is all a psyop.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_measures
Patty, 8: “This man is no Christian.”
Real Christians adhere to the Biblical command: “Thou shall not murder.”
Real Muslims adhere to the Quranic commands: “Those who have disbelieved our signs, we shall roast them in fire,” and “They but wish that ye should reject faith…so take not friends from their ranks untill they flee in the way of Allah, but if they turn renegades, seize them and kill them wherever ye find them.”
Real Marxists adhere to the Manifesto command: “You must, therefore, confess that by “individual” you mean no other person than the bourgeois, than the middle-class owner of property. This person must, indeed, be swept out of the way, and made impossible.”
ConfederateH 81,
The American Civil War was not “the murder of your own people.” It was a war fought between two opposing governments and their military forces – like all wars. No Confederate general ordered the murder of Southerners, and no Northern general ordered the murder of Northerners. Some civilians were murdered by opposing soldiers during the Civil War (war crimes occur in all wars), but murder of civilians by their own military forces during the American Civil war is a lie.
The atrocity in Norway has prompted many comments here and around the internet which attempt to use historical or cultural precedents to explain the inexplicable. My mental image was of Col Kurtz in Apocolypse Now and his epiphany upon returning to the village to find the pile of “little hacked off arms” and being “shot through the forehead with a diamond” at his realization that some actions are not unthinkable to the true believer. His statement that with a few battalions of such men “this whole business would be over very quickly”
This event may truly mark the point where Europe and the West may have reached
the horrifying conclusion that we may have to repeat the oceans of blood sown in the last century to resolve the way forward. The predictions in “The Fourth Turning” creep closer with each month. What Breivik did is hateful and evil and cannot be the action of someone who is “civilized”. When has that ever made a difference? The horror…the horror.
Breivik it seems speaks a great deal in his manifesto about defending Christian culture and the church itself, but I have a hard time seeing how anyone with a real commitment to the New Testament could have possibly committed mass murder as he did. It would seem that his association with the church is mostly cultural. He wants to defend the church because Norway has been christian a long time sort of thing.
“no Northern general ordered the murder of Northerners.”
http://www.civilwarhome.com/draftriots.htm
“The north and west sides of the city were effectually cleared of rioters by detachments sent by me from the arsenal. In Broadway, Forty-second, Twenty-seventh, Twenty-eighth, Twenty-ninth, Thirtieth, Thirty-first, and Thirty-second streets, Seventh, Eighth, Ninth, and Tenth avenues, mobs were attacked, and in every instance defeated or dispersed. No blank cartridges were issued to or used by any of the troops under my orders.
Snipped from after action report by
Brig. Gen. JOHN T. SPRAGUE,
Adjutant-General, State of New York.
One of many. The US Army has on several occasions used lethal force against US Citizens. Look it up.
Ut oh. i thought I turned the bold off. MY BAD.
Back in the Day, “” turned off all the uni-code. Obviously, that has changed and I didn’t get the memo.
So now every post will be in bold? I’m gonna run away and hide.
It is slowly becoming apparent that huge swaths if not nearly all of his manifesto are plagiarized. It’s hard to fake beliefs without going overboard or lacking conviction; plagiarizing is a nifty trick to fool us with our own rhetoric. If your are passionate about your beliefs why would you rip off your life’s work like someone trying to skate through a term paper in a class you were too hungover to attend? This whole thing stinks and a false/flag psyop is looking more and more plausible. Btw the picture of him holding a Mini-14 rifle in tac gear and what looks like a wetsuit reeks of mall ninja. His attempts to organize others seem like half-hearted attempts; things done just to establish a narrative. Somebody connected got him that police uniform.
I am reposting this link because it bears reposting.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_measures
[/b]
I was under the impression that Ammonium nitrate fertiliser was useless for bomb-making as it had been adulterated with substances that make the mix basically non-explosive. Folks who do blasting for a living, generally have licences allowing them to buy the good stuff.
Additional notes:
6 tons plus fuel (distillate) is a LOT of stuff to look after. Think “Ryder” truck. However, in the unlikely event that someone brews up that quantity of real ANFO, there is a further problem; the stuff is fairly “lively’ and starts to get hot and very sensitive to shock; not the sort of thing you want to be bouncing around in the back of a closed truck for several hours in the summer sun.
You can set the mix off with a standard detonator but in that mode, the stuff is classified as a “low” explosive; the velocity of the blast front is relatively slow. I am not going to elaborate further.
This loony is reported to have posted a “rant” generally plagiarised from other’s material shortly before doing the berserker thing. Said document seems to have subsequently been taken down. Any thoughts as to why, if he were a Norwegian nationalist, he would have posted such a document in English and not Norwegian?
Finally, there are nasty parallels with the Port Arthur massacre in Tasmania, Australia. In the latter, Bryant systematically shot up a gun-free National Park. In the broad Arrow Cafe, he methodically slaughtered many of the occupants, none of whom appear to have made any attempt to defend themselves or strike back, even whilst Bryant was reloading. All sheep and no sheep dogs?
I don’t think any of us with sanity can imagine Breivik winning anyone to his rather elaborate “cause” by making the first targets of his wrath his fellow citizens. By making the authorities in government the targets, his message is one of anarchy or civil war at best. Conservatives want to resolve our struggle to preserve the Republic and its founding principles and founding document through in the arena of ideas, in the electorate, through our elected representatives, and at the polls. So, Breivik doesn’t represent a body of thought, nor any ideological political stance. Only a deranged personal agenda.
wrt your last graf:
There was a shooting in either Washington state or Oregon. High school. Some kids jumped the shooter while he was reloading,one of them already shot. It was said they were heroes in the media until it was found they were members of the NRA. That may be an exaggeration.
Could be “Kip Kinkel” would be a good search.
Anyway, what inferences do you draw from the lack of response? Some kind of gas first?
Same thing happened at Ecole Polytechnique in Montreal.
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/208723.php
Since ABB’s manifesto is massively plagirized from the Unabomber, Ted Kaczynski, the ‘English translation’ can be explained.
http://dougsaunders.net/2011/07/political-thinking-anders-behring-breivik/
For those with an interest — ABB’s upload of a wagon load.
—-
Bruce:
Even a bright person is going to have troubles pulling off an ANFO detonation with massive effect. What sounds simple gets real complicated very quickly. As a green horn ABB would have had to run his own bomb testing school — and not get noticed.
John Brown raided the federal arsenal at Harper’s Ferry in an attempt to arm slave insurrections in Virginia and throughout the South in 1859. Ultimately he was captured and hung for treason. His last words were
“I John Brown am now quite certain that the crimes of this guilty, land: will never be purged away; but with Blood. I had as I now think: vainly flattered myself that without very much bloodshed; it might be done.”
Kevin Barry was an 18 year old medical student who led a raid on a British detachment buying bread in Dublin. The goal was to capture their arms and ammunition. The raid went awry, several soldiers were killed, Barry’s gun jammed and he was captured tried and hanged. Much was made of the fact that he was just 18 but the British soldiers killed were no older and one was probably just 15, lying about your age being common practice.
The two things the perpetrators of these “criminal” acts have in common is that they were both committing acts of domestic terrorism in a cause that had not yet reached a generally recognized state of warfare and they both had songs written about them. Still history is divided on how to treat them both. Were they madmen, profits, murderous criminals, nation heroes, or something else entirely.
History is written by the winners and war is hell and the first ones to strike in a civil conflict are inevitably engaging in criminal activity against the existing state. When do abuses become sufficiently intolerable that it is your right or duty to strike out against the government? Do not look to me for the answer but Breivik’s targets were the ruling party and its youth wing not random citizens and not Muslims or places of worship. He identified the problem as mass Muslim immigration and held the ruling socialist party responsible for that policy. He may be brutal but he is not crazy. Watch out if they write a song about him.
PS – probably a good thing Norway does not have the death penalty. Hanged prophets are always the most troublesome.
A madman named Anders Behring Breivik has just killed over a hundred people in Norway, land of my ancestors. But that land is a very long way from the land of the Viking kings. Norway is now a leftist utopia, and some people, like Anders, don’t like it, don’t like the direction Europe has taken down that old socialist road, a road that promises to make Europe into a Muslim colony. Neo-Nazis are gaining strength, people, like Anders, are determined to preserve the graves of their ancestors. Connect the dots. Socialism is destroying Europe, Muslim immigration is destroying Europe, and Crusader societies are rising in strength. This is just the beginning. There will be more. Anders assaulted the ruling left, whom he blames for the problems of Europe. Others will attack the Muslims, and the Muslims will respond. Connect the dots. This is just the beginning. The spider is spinning her web and the dots are connecting.
She sits and she waits
With her unblinking eyes
She is patient, and knows very well
That something will blunder
And say its goodbyes
Trapped for good in the maid spider’s spell
Yes the road’s filled with promise
With smiles all around
The Left strides ahead with its schemes
But far in the distance
The merest faint sound
Signals end to the fine Leftist dreams
The men of faith rise
From the holdings and shires
Crusaders, true men of the land
Who fight for the graves
Of their kin and their sires
And others soon join in their stand
The road that once taken
That leads to the Left
Leads only to misery and death
‘Tis better to fight
Than find family bereft
And down to their last final breath
Yes the spider she waits
For she knows that in time
Her web will connect many dots
And the ending will see
A fair Europe that’s free
Of the Muslims and foul Lefty plots
700 to 750 campers and staff on an island the size of a Walmart parking lot, yes it is surpassing strange that he was so safe from counter attack. But even more strange, how did he know –assuming he did know, or guess –it would play out this way? How does it come to pass that a large crowd of healthy older adolescents would generate no fear of resistance –to their own executions?
Is the new world order salting our food? air? water? …or something? The species cannot become SO docile SO quickly, Darwin would have you know.
***
This site has –at the bottom –six headlines headed ‘related’: three of the stories are what you’d expect, but the other three kind of gnaw a little bit, under the circumstances (note, the links will no doubt change before long):
http://theforeigner.no/pages/news/george-soros-visits-norway/ (Soros promoting humanitarian sharing of oil as seen at a new website of his)
http://theforeigner.no/pages/news/norway-to-double-vaccine-funding/ (Bill Gates visiting to request child-vaccination funding uptic)
http://theforeigner.no/pages/news/barents-oil-within-pms-grasp/ (29 days to go and the gavel rings down on a provisional treaty with Russia over the boundary line of a potentially rich hydrocarbon lode in a new far northern area of the Barents Sea)
In this series of comments I have missed the guns. Man what about the guns. If fully auto how do you get them in Norway? Really hard to do in the US. I assume Norway is the model gun control state. In a small population and highly controlled country how does a “citizen” amass an arsenal?
It’s going to be interesting to see how the elite’s handle the aftermath of this incident. I suspect they’ll overreach in some manner. Look for attempts to wall themselves off from the little people even more than they do now.
After the Gabby Giffords incident, I thought it was quite interesting that within several months both Keith Olbermann and Glenn Beck ended their programs and left their networks (although Beck supposedly will do some extracurricular work at Fox in some capacity, from time to time). Reasons were given for their departures, but I thought the timing had more to do with the shooting of Giffords and a fear on the part of the elite that the incident tied in directly with bomb throwers on television. Maybe I’m wrong, but let’s watch and see if something happens to crack down on “extremist” voices in the MSM and on radio.
The UK Guardian is reporting this guy wrote a 1,500 page manifesto? Of course most of it was plagarized. But even the Hebrew Bible if I’m not mistaken is not much more than that. And even if he started in 2002…really? And quoting Ted Kacyznski, which is not the slightest consistent with all the rest?
This whole thing stinks. It stinks about as much as a Soros-funded website at the American University claiming that Fort Worth Alliance airport is a smuggling point for guns to the Zetas. Really? Do the owners of Alliance have any comment on this? Should they sue Soros for libel? Something is just….off.
Wretchard, I understand your public thoughts. It’s truly frightening that something extracted from Belmont Club might wind up conveniently in the massive load of web output/quoting/paraphrasing attributed to this either loon or brainwashed stooge. All too conveniently. Hence the chilling effect that people will keep thinking BC type thoughts but make damn sure they do it only face to face and not through any electronic media.
Isn’t this it?
William Butler Yeats (1865-1939)
THE SECOND COMING
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
ABB purchased 9 tons of fertilizer.
If it was a car bomb it might have accommodated 1000 pounds.
Maybe ABB had future plans. Except he didn’t seem in a hurry to leave the island.
Checking the goog news aggregator for stories on the FAA shutdown, among the top handful of URLs are several concerning the FAA effect on Alaska in particular, including this onrush-of-the-new-world-order gem.
***
BigR/100; scroll down on Instapundit a little ways and see a blurb on the new Mossberg AR-15. If you enter the linked site, one of the sub-links inside is about the Norway story. It contains the shooter’s video, as well as (scroll down a little ways, see in italics) a long quote from some official source about Norway’s gun rules:
http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/07/robert-farago/norwegian-spree-killer-anders-behring-breiviks-youtube-video-revealed/
I have contended on this board for 5 years or so that the Europeans will eventually kick out the moslems.
The only real issue will be as to whether technology will have advanced far enough to make it possible to deliver water so cheaply to the desert that north africa’s and the middle east deserts will be turned green–making that part of the world much more attractive for a trained new work force from Europe.
I think that desalination and transport technology is moving rapidly enough so that the technology will be in place to send the moslems back to africa and themiddle east when the europeans kick them out.
All along the main fear was not islamic take over of Europe, No the main fear was a resurgent National and Racial up rising with the goal of turning on the gas and firing up the ovens in the crematoriums to rid Europe of it’s new problem race and religion. Everyone who knows the history of World War 2 and the ethnic cleansing of Jews from Europe during the holocaust can see what the islamic militant rise would do, set the Euro’s off on an old fashion pogram and muslim final solution.
The Muslim’s have played hell and now the devil is waiting for his due.
I say America step back and let the Euro’s handle their own little problem in their own ways.
Reviewing what has been said , I have been beaten the punch on several things. Yet not all.
First, let us posit that the story that first came out about ABB as an individual is true. That is not said to deny that truth, but to set a parameter for discussion. The information about him as an individual, does not in and of itself confirm other points of the narrative. It was said shortly after he was arrested, that he had tried to “wipe” his internet tracks, and inserted a narrative that fit his current acts. We can accept that as a possibility, and yet not have it as the be-all and end-all of the story. Apparently, his online presence is still being edited by persons unknown, for reasons unknown.
I received this from a friend:
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2011/07/who-added-christian-and-conservative-to-norway-shooters-facebook-page-yesterday.html
Captures of his Facebook page, from yesterday just after his arrest, and today, show that it has been changed in both and English and Norwegian versions to emphasize his Chrisitianity and conservatism. I rather think that he does not have online access at the moment, so one can assume that whoever is changing it is doing it for their own purposes; as an ally or as an adversary of ABB. This calls into question the accuracy of any narrative from yesterday forward.
It may be that Facebook [known for sympathies to the Left] and/or the Norwegian authorities are playing MiniTru. Or it may be that he has allies and the “crazed lone wolf” scenario so beloved of governments everywhere as an explanation for any untoward event is not true. This is going to be one of those historical events where the truth is neither clear nor guaranteed to will out.
It is claimed that he is a farmer, and that he purchased 6 tons of Ammonium Nitrate fertilizer in the last two years. Sounds scary. But there are a number of questions that I would like the answers to.
1) forensic examination of the blast(s) in Oslo.
a) what kind of explosive? Was it in fact ANFO, as they are hinting but not openly saying? Was it some other explosive, which would send the investigation in other directions, if they are being honest?
b) they know [we may not, but Norwegian cops do] the exact points of detonation by now, AND what vehicles were used to contain the bombs. Is there forensic evidence consistent with ANFO in a quantity large enough to cause the damage in the cars’ debris? In time they should be able to figure out how the vehicle was loaded with it, and figure out the blast pattern. Is that consistent with ANFO?
Oklahoma City was with a big [Huge by Euro standards] U-haul truck loaded with ANFO; plus possibly interior secondary explosions. From the video I have seen, the bomb(s) were in one or two standard passenger cars. European passenger cars are small. That fits in Scandinavia. ANFO is bulky compared to other explosives. I’ve worked with it in commercial form long ago when I was a hard rock miner [and vastly prefer other explosives]. Could the car or cars have held enough to do the damage that was done, as it seems to have been a very large blast? If they weren’t and the forensics indicate dynamite, gelex, semtex, or other explosive; the case they are putting out against ABB as a sole bomber just got a big hole knocked in it.
2) His background as a farmer. Did he in fact buy that much Ammonium Nitrate? They should be able to trace every transaction going back years in Norway. How much was used on the farm, and how much could have been left over? I am not a farmer, but from reference works, Ammonium Nitrate fertilizer is 34% Nitrogen by weight. Taking Bermuda Grass pasture/hay as a rough indication [and who knows what they grow in his part of Norway?] you need app. 400 lbs/acre per year of Nitrogen by weight, which works out to roughly 1200 lbs. of Ammonium Nitrate fertilizer per acre, per year. How big is his farm? Admittedly, it does not take a whole lot of land to use up 6 tons of fertilizer in two years. Granting that the application rate will have to be adjusted for local conditions, but it would take orders of magnitude fudge factors to have it so that it was not a reasonable amount to have used on any decent sized farm.
Did he run diesel equipment on his farm or gasoline vehicles? The “FO” is diesel fuel. How much has he purchased in the last couple of years? If he did not, there are other implications.
If you have a quantity of ANFO defined from #1, is there forensic evidence of the mixing and storage. If I remember correctly, McVeigh had to use a dump truck as a mixing bowl, and it took several people over 24 hours to mix it. Does that fit the loner theory?
If the explosive was not ANFO, then he probably had help acquiring it. If it was a large enough quantity of ANFO, he probably had help mixing it. I don’t know about in Norway, but here it would raise eyebrows if you invited a bunch of casual acquaintances to an explosives mixing party and Smørbrød picnic.
The Socialist [Labour, actually] Party Youth Camp is as described. It is an incubator for the Zampoliti, Apparatchniki, and Nomenklatura of the future. This kind of rite of passage/indoctrination is common for European political parties. It is not something that we are used to; our regular political parties and system being not conducive to coercive discipline and more akin to herding cats. The closest thing in the American political experience to this actually comes from European based parties of the two variants of Socialism; Marxist and National. The Trotskyite “Socialist Workers Party” used to [and may still for all I know] have summer youth camps in the Catskills of New York and later elsewhere. The pre WW-II “German-American Bund” had similar camps.
And amongst both groups, some of the outgrowths were units of cadres for street fighting. That kind of thing, private political armies, are a feature of European politics. The closest thing we have are the SEIU and OFA; and both are pale imitation wanna-be’s of the European cousins.
If, either in ABB’s deranged mind, or in the minds of any accomplices; they were targeting the Nomenklatura, and as noted Norway is a small country with a small Political Class, the camp makes sense as a target.
In the aftermath, what is likely to happen? First, we are going to see the Political Class take their own personal safety a lot more seriously. The police reaction to reports of the shootings at Utøya was a cluster of the first order. For a SWAT team equivalent not to have access to helicopter transport [if not their own, then by lease, commandeering, or ability to call on the military (there is no posse commitatus there) is scandalous. For them not to have access by the same means for boats in a country that is mostly coastline and lakes is just as bad. We are going to see an upsurge in the personal security budget for politicians and their families.
We are going to see a clamping down on non-PC speech, as has been mentioned by others. The problem is, whether ABB was a loner or has allies; it is the inability to engage in legitimate political discussion and solutions of society’s critical problems that encourages violence as the only alternative to submission. And as has been discussed, if Justice is not seen to have been done, more violence will come.
Finally, one thing to look for. Will the parties of the Left form their own “protection units” for the security of their public and private functions? Or will they use the organs of the state for that purpose? If they form private units, they will eventually be engaged against their political opponents. If the state is used, its one-sided approach to the laws will trigger more opposition. Think Germany in the 1920’s as a partial template.
And then there is the wild card. In addition to the ongoing societal pressures of the massive Muslim immigration; what if … what if there is a major Islamist attack? Last December 11 there was a car bombing/bomb vest attack in neighboring Sweden by an Iraqi immigrant Taimour Abdulwahab al-Abdaly; who left tapes in Swedish and Arabic saying it was in protest of the Muhammed cartoons years ago. There is no level of appeasement possible to prevent such a wild card.
Subotai Bahadur
In the US as far as I know the small bags of Ammonium Nitrate fertilizer that you buy at the local Garden supply store are adulterated, usually with calcium. The large commercial quantities have “tags” in them so if they are used for naughty purposes they can be traced. The stuff is still used for certain commercial booms, mining and sounding, so they need the unadulterated stuff. You can lay down pipe in the ground mix it up as a slurry and pump it into the pipes. The low speed blast front is actually an advantage in some applications. Overseas it is a different story. Some of it is tagged but most of it is not. Blasting caps are tricky to get hold of in the US, making your own is dangerous.
Every once in a while some do get stolen though.
I inserted here an ending bold tag to see if the bolding gets turned off in the successive comments here. We all make tagging mistakes from time to time.
stoi – 40 lashes with a wet noodle for you, for starting this boldface stuff!
a few minor notes -
#1
The manifesto author (may or may not be Breivik) states early on that English is his secondary language. Meaning, he does speak it. He mentioned the not first language thing in order to apologize beforehand for grammar and spelling lapses. If all this is the case, no translation was necessary … the doc was written in English to begin with. (I don’t know about an alternate version in Norwegian.) He also mentions that it was a “priority objective” to have the book translated into German, French, and Spanish.
Aside from some repeat S/V agreement gaffes and too ornate adjective endings (“demographical” and “democratical” instead of just “demographic” and “democratic”), the passages that I read (spent about an hour browsing the document) were actually not that badly written from a grammatical or comprehension standpoint. Funny enough I actually found it better written & more readable than Michelle Obama’s thesis.
#2
The link that blert provides at mypetjawa (and the Google oversetter link from there) did not convince me that the 2083 manifesto was “massively” plagiarized from the Unabomber’s. The examples provided (and I was taking it on their word that the citations from TK were in fact from TK) amounted to something probably way less than 300 words. 2083 is more than 770,000 words in length. Less than one half of one-tenth of one percent doesn’t exactly consititute “massively” in my book. This is not to say that 2083 doesn’t rely on plagiarization (generous or otherwise) of other sources. Merely that the purported demonstration that it lifts liberally from TK did not bear up mathematically.
Cut & paste job or not, 1500 pages / 770,000+ words is still a LOT of material and took a lot of time to assemble as a readable (if highly weird in many places) document. Someone(s) had a lot of time on their hands.
The first government response, supported by the chattering classes, will be to restrict speech.
The point of systematic terrorism is to provoke the state into taking unpopular measures which will swing more people over to the terrorists viewpoint, or at least swing them away from supporting the state. Time will tell whether or not these “Templar’s” are capable of systematic terrorism, or whether this was the act of one man.
“The age of innocence of the anti-jihad movement is at an end.” Well said. Years ago as a young man, I was startled to learn that anti-semitism was still alive and well in Europe. I had naively supposed that it was burned out of Europeans by WW2 and the Holocaust. During Hitler’s rise, the fanaticism of the Nazis was viewed by many as a necessary counter to Communism. The “old devils” that Hitler loosed did not die with his defeat. Some will justify their awakening as essential to Europe’s preservation. I would not be suprised to see some charismatic leader rise up lead this movement. This is not going to end well. It will be ugly, whoever wins.
“And the whole earth became full of darkness and cruel habitations.”
C. S. Lewis, Perelandra, cf. Psalm 74: 20
stoicheion 88,
“The north and west sides of the city were effectually cleared of rioters by detachments sent by me from the arsenal… No blank cartridges were issued to or used by any of the troops under my orders.” Brig. Gen. JOHN T. SPRAGUE, Adjutant-General, State of New York
Here’s the rest of the story:
“Eventually numbering some 50,000 people, the mob terrorized neighborhoods on the East Side of New York for three days looting scores of stores. Blacks were the targets of most attacks on citizens; several lynchings and beatings occurred. In addition, a black church and orphanage were burned to the ground. All in all, the mob caused more than $1.5 million of damage. The number killed or wounded during the riot is unknown, but estimates range from two dozen to nearly 100. Eventually, Lincoln deployed combat troops from the Federal Army of the Potomac to restore order…”
http://www.civilwarhome.com/draftriots.htm
“The New York City draft riots (July 13 to July 16, 1863; known at the time as Draft Week) were violent disturbances in New York City that were the culmination of discontent with new laws passed by Congress to draft men to fight in the ongoing American Civil War. The riots were the largest civil insurrection in American history apart from the Civil War itself. President Abraham Lincoln sent several regiments of militia and volunteer troops to control the city. The rioters were overwhelmingly working class men, resentful, among other reasons, because the draft unfairly affected them while sparing wealthier men, who could afford to pay a $300 commutation fee to exclude themselves from its reach. Initially intended to express anger at the draft, the protests turned ugly and degraded into “a virtual racial pogrom, with uncounted numbers of blacks murdered on the streets”. The conditions in the city were such that Major General John E. Wool stated on July 16, “Martial law ought to be proclaimed, but I have not a sufficient force to enforce it.” The military suppressed the mob using artillery and fixed bayonets, but not before numerous buildings were ransacked or destroyed, including many homes and an orphanage for black children.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_draft_riots
stoicheion 88: “The US Army has on several occasions used lethal force against US Citizens. Look it up.”
I suppose you didn’t think I’d actually read the historical account, but I did look it up. You painted this incident as an example of state murder of its own citizens – but it was not – it was an example of state suppression of a murdering mob of 50,000.
And a not-so-minor note:
On p824 of the 2083 manifesto, there’s a passage that does track with blert’s take on the attacks as political assassinations as opposed to (plain ole) terrorism.
See the relevant paragraph under “Military Objectives.” I will not quote directly in order to keep BC from coming up in quotation search results. But the manifesto does use the word assassinations and adds that WMD must be deployed if the attacks are to have any influence on the Yurp political establishment.
I guess future events (or lack thereof) will tell us whether ABB is a lone wolf or part of a larger organization. The manifesto mentions that he met with 9 (IIRC) other like-minded individuals in London (does not name them for obvious reasons, but he does state their nationality, and it’s a cross-section of Europe). So are we talking 1 guy claiming a phantom fellowship of 10 … or are the 10-or-so really real … and, if so, are there more than these dozen?
Subotai – “Norwegian authorities are playing MiniTru.”
Hard to say. Norwegians like to play politics against truth to the rest of the world. Norwegians are a bastion of rabid femi-Nazi’s who could not be reasonably trusted with the weapon of truth that they wield against those who they hate, namely their own populace. Let us examine some of the world’s most deserving recipient of the Nobel Prize that follows.
Barack Obama (2009)
Yasser Arafat (1994)
Jimmy Carter (2002)
Kofi Annan (2001)
Kim Dae-jung (2000)
Mikhail Gorbachev (1990)
Henry Kissinger and Le Duc Tho (1973)
Leon Bourgeois (1920)
Woodrow Wilson (1919)
Theodore Roosevelt (1906)
They are clearly more interested in posturing to the world politically. I must wonder what my ancestors were thinking.
Whatever the truth, you can be sure that the Norwegians will craft it to humiliate their own as is their custom.
The only way the genie is going to be put back into the bottle is to restore the supremacy of the King’s justice
I think the problem is that the King’s justice is widely seen as unjust. That tends to lessen peoples desire for its supremacy. The state can always enforce its supremacy, as it often does at present, but that just aggravates the underlying problem. If a significant number of ordinary middle-class people come to believe that the state(s) we live in are illegitimate, the Kings will find themselves without subjects.
I spent about four hours reading 2083 so far. I’m going to read some more of it, too, maybe all of it. I find it to be pretty fascinating. That’s way more than I can say from the Unabomber manifesto, which I attempted to read back in the day. Found it awful and boring. But that was a long time ago, maybe revisiting the Unabomber is in order.
This guy Breivik is a real piece of work! I love how he put a legal disclaimer in there before he declares war. A manifesto and cookbook for wanton slaughter that comes with a legal disclaimer! Had to laugh out loud when he catalogs the arms of Justiciar Knight, listing gas masks as optional but iPods as essential. Got to have the right ambiance rolling for the mayhem?
A huge and serious takeaway from the manifesto, however, is the realization that bombs are really a tremendous waste of time and also inefficient resource sinks. Breivik documents his bomb-making efforts in detail. It took lots of work to manufacture, to test, to keep hidden. The bombs also upped his risk of getting caught, and he dodged detection by luck a couple times.
In the end his shooting spree had the most impact. The bombing wound up almost diversionary. This is the same realization to be had after 9/11, when the DC snipers showed up. The WTC/Pentagon operations were over-engineered, high risk, flamboyant terrorist poetry, yet all it took was two idiots with a gun to paralyze Washington, DC for few weeks.
We’ve been lucky our main opponent has been al-Quaeda who fortunately for us seem to insist on the grandiose high-risk operations. Breivik and the DC snipers demonstrate that what’s really important is will, not bombmaking skills, not coordinating teams of guys, not having jet plane piloting skills – nothing fancy. Gun. Ammo. Will. That’s enough to cause real trouble. And that is frightening, because that is very hard to prevent. Breivik just made a compare and contrast episode of two operational approaches to the whole terrorist world.
”
The chilling effect will make its way here if it hasn’t already. In war, truth is the first casualty. In a tyranny, the first amendment is.
Richard Fernandez has never himself promoted genocide in his dispatches–he is innocent in this regard.
He has, however, provided a forum in which many posters have promoted genocide, racism, and religious murder.
We hope he will monitor comments diligently moving forward.
Given the slaughter of children in Norway by a fanatic Zionist aka christian this blog will be monitored by Australian, US, Echelon and other security agencies as a routine matter moving forward.
Unfortunately the massacre is a huge game changer for free speech on the web.
Under the seemingly placid exterior of Western Europe, the old devils lurk.
In this respect if in no other, people are people regardless of where they live. Western Europeans may be more effective at killing than other people, but they’re not more prone to it.
He goes further than most by declaring his willingness to work with European neo-Nazis
I think you’re really reaching there. One of the striking things in his missive was his criticism of racists and haters, specifically including Nazi’s and neo-nazi’s. For instance, these words of his:
>According to a YouGov poll taken after Question Time, no fewer than 22 per cent of British voters would ‘seriously consider’ voting for the BNP.
>That nearly one quarter of British people might vote for a neo-Nazi party with views inimical to democracy, human rights and common decency is truly appalling.
Never mind the Nazi’s, he felt the BNP was too extreme for him!
Wretchard isn’t it time you gave ‘Victor’ the boot?
This bold was killing my eyes… Sigh…
Bluto
V @ 121
Put down the crack pipe Dude!
There is irony here…
The Norwegian Labor Party permits Mullah Krekar to murder chronically across Iraq — far beyond the numbers assassinated by ABB.
We can only hope that Oslo snaps out of terrorist toleration — and sends Krekar on his way to Bagdad.
Once there, he can answer a LOT of questions.
Oslo permitted itself to become terror central for Europe — now they have blow-back.
Let us not forget the warrants unserved piled up in Oslo — from Britain, Spain, America and Iraq.
Hmmm. Perhaps the next time any Jew is murdered, Victor should be held personally responsible for that crime…
To me, the most interesting aspect of Anders Behring Breivik is how he self-identifies himself as a “crusader”. Think about it. Al-Qaeda has barked the label “Crusader” constantly against westerners for the last fifteen years. And now, this man self-identifies himself the way Islamists identify him.
His tactics are a refinement of the tactics of Islamists, for he apparently uses more precision than is usually evident from Islamists. He may call himself a Christian. He may call himself a Crusader. Yet, his self-identification is not indigenous. His self-identification is more of a mirror image of Islam and specifically al-Qaeda than an identification arising from his own heritage.
If this attack were a “false flag” production, it could not have been executed more effectively. It plays into the desired worldview of al-Qaeda and identifies itself the way al-Qaeda wants. Moreover, he seeks to use this massacre as a podium to express his views, in imitation of al-Qaeda’s propensity to murder people and then give harsh lectures to the relatives of the dead.
This attack is classic “propaganda of the deed” – he is using this event to proselytize the same way al-Qaeda used the September 11 attacks to proselytize. One thing Anders Behring Breivik does seem to understand is that if one can always start a war if one massacres enough people.
Victor: “We hope he will monitor comments diligently moving forward.”
We hope he (Wretchard) will monitor Victor’s comments diligently moving forward.
Victor: “Given the slaughter of children in Norway by a fanatic Zionist aka christian this blog will be monitored by Australian, US, Echelon and other security agencies as a routine matter moving forward. Unfortunately the massacre is a huge game changer for free speech on the web.”
Anders Behring Breivik may consider himself a “Christian” but as a mass-murderer he separates himself from the Christian faith and the Christian Bible. God will decide if Anders Behring Breivik has separated himself from God.
Any commenter who advocates murder or mass-murder should not only be banned from commenting, but should be turned over to the FBI. Any commenter, like Victor, who suppresses freedom of speech by peaceful and thoughtful commenters – through fear of government security agencies – should also, in my opinion, be banned from commenting.
One thing should be made clear here; Anders Behring Breivik has nothing to do with American Conservatism – which is based on the equal rights of man – the American Declaration of Independence, Bill of Rights and Constitution – the American Revolution it’s self. Anders Behring Breivik is a European Fascist – a member of the Fascist Left. American Conservatism is in eternal opposition to both the Marxist Left and the Fascist Left – both of which are enemies of the equal rights of man. Both Marxists and Fascists believe that some (themselves) are “more equal than others.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7M-7LkvcVw
c @ 118: A huge and serious takeaway from the manifesto, however, is the realization that bombs are really a tremendous waste of time and also inefficient resource sinks.
The pen is mightier than the sword, and all that, the Bolsheviks took over the government without WMD, the Nazis didn’t slaughter the democrats to take power. WWI was started by a single bullet, sort of, after a small explosion failed. And yet, I would not dismiss the value of big booms even in freelance anarchism. It’s an ongoing issue for me, actually, that so many see precision-guided munitions as being best used with tiny, surgical boomlets. In general I believe war calls for collateral damage, not to mention big bombs give you margin for error. Besides, one should always go with what one is good at, and we’re good at big booms. Amateurs not so much – that’s kind of what keeps them amateurs, isn’t it. I believe in asymmetric warfare – they snipe at us, we wipe them out.
If Breivik thinks otherwise, I suggest it’s because he’s not really into the war thing after all. He might even agree. He’s into politics and culture and prophecy and aggitation, or maybe just performance art. For those purposes, maybe small booms are more elegant.
One tactic of the right wing extremist on blogs is the persistent use of a recent ritual- that of suddenly, and without warning, of the participants in unison suddenly, and without warning, switching to bold text to highlight their nefarious methods in brown shirted, jack booted solidarity.
One can only speculate as to what this mysterious and unusual tactic portends.
This blog is getting more apocalyptic every day. And more apoplectic too.
“We hope he will monitor comments diligently moving forward.”
VICTOE@121 Is that like the royal we or are you having multiple personality issues?
Josh, one must hope that terrorists continue aiming for this performance art element. That urge makes them far easier to detect. I’m afraid the economy of terrorism leads us to Utoya. Simpler, harder to detect attacks, which are also capable of happening at a higher frequency.
The only effective defense against that is to arm everybody. That’s also the last solution our betters will accept.
To whom it may concern:
I am quite sure that the Belmont Club has been monitored by various intelligence organizations for several years. This is nothing new and nothing to be worried about. As a rule, one does not write down comments on a blog such as this one unless one wants one’s comments to get picked up by intelligence organizations.
For God’s sake, somebody close the bold tag.
/b
Rough cut@133 I am not sure the same cannot be said of the world we live in. we are bombing away in at least five different countries, borrowing 40 cents of every dollar we spend, got no budget, Greece is taking the Euro down the tube or vice versa, Iran and North Korea are run by madmen with the bomb and VIctor apparently com ands the intelligence services of the semi-free world.
go figure.
It would seem impossible to close the bold tag!
136. Alexis
Countless times I’ve witnessed BC commentary leap onto the front page…
So it’s MUCH worse.
Even the NY Times lurks at the BC.
One could make the case that the Belmont Club is Clear Channel….
At 500,000 Watts.
——
I’ve often thought of why the BC is … the BC.
Why it has not degraded into… well… the h-post and lessers.
I believe it is due to our host…
And due to ourselves.
—–
The BC simply does not feed the fire of the enraged apparat/stooge/dope.
Somehow they find their way to Kos and Huffpoo.
Considering that ABB claims to be a Norwegian Christian, please indulge me one brief significant quote from Martin Luther. “Hier stehe ich, ich kann nicht Anders.”
Neither kann the rest of us, except perhaps Viktor.
http://www.okcupid.com/politics
Someone just told me about this up and coming (er, yeah) and free dating site, that has you take interesting tests to match you up. This is their “politics” test. Besides the fact that you are forced to answer some questions you’d probably rather pass (or qualify), it is indeed … interesting. It seems to be just about what you’d expect, a test written by young lefties trying their level best to be fair. Mostly, it isn’t all that much about politics per se, or what do you think?
This might have a tad of relevance here as we try to figure out what sort of an act this Norwegian business comes to – was it after all politics, or something else, and if so, what? Is terrorism politics? Is politics terrorism? Would you vote for the candidate with the best package?
Speaking of Crusaders, those of us with any education ought to remember that the Drusaders who went to the Holy Land came prirmarily from Western and Soutnern Europe. The Crusaders from Prussia and Scandinavia took their war to Russia and fought against other Christians of the Eastern Orthodox faith. Many of them ended up swimming in Lake Chud in their armor. Others created the Principality of Livonia in Estonia/Latvia which lasted till Ivan the Terrible. Is this what Anders BB really wishes to identify with?
Rurik, that’s a loaded question. As far as I can tell, ABB referenced Jan Sobieski in that context.
“I am quite sure that the Belmont Club has been monitored by various intelligence organizations for several years. This is nothing new and nothing to be worried about. As a rule, one does not write down comments on a blog such as this one unless one wants one’s comments to get picked up by intelligence organizations.”
Alexis,
While we’re discussing spooks, Senor Equis did receive a request from a ‘former’ Aussie spook now in the think tank world a few months back asking to become a Twitter follower of his. Except for one teensy problem — Senor Equis at that point hadn’t made a single tweet.
And no, I won’t give his name, cuz he may read this, but there it is. I wanted to write the man back and ask, “I can’t think of anything you down there and Oz and I up here in the States have in common, save for a shared interest in Russian history and one Richard Fernandez.” But I didn’t do it. It did get a nice laugh though from my Russian wife.
Peace out, semi-free world! Looks like it’s time for another hiatus from my addiction to Belmont Club….
That’s funny as hell, Josh. Those political spectrum charts are no new thing cooked up by some dating site guys. They were cooked up by Wilhelm Reich. Reich is the mystical Marxist. Cloudbursting, Daddy!
We’ve got the mystical Templars seeping up again after dormant centuries, now Reich.
toadold was right. I do expect to see a radioactive dinosaur creeping up of Fukushima!
twobyfour,
Is it a loaded question? Sorry, but I’m not bright enough to see how. I will plead guilty to multiple typos. In my opinion the legacy of the Teutonic/Livonian Kinghts was mixed. They did result in the Baltic Peoples maintaining their identity and a Western Orientation (good), whild helping consolidate the schism between the Western and Eastern Churches (not so good. But most relevant of all from the Breivik perspective should be the fact that those they fought against were Christian Heretics, and they never fought the Muslims. Yes I know about Liegnitz, but that was a case of Pole fighting Mongols of the Ulus Jochi. Crusaders and Muslims not notably involved. Sort of like ABB did, fighting the Muslims by killing a bunch a Norwegian secularists.
c @ 147: Look around this site, they have some pretty funny stuff, their trends, and their mainline tests. I don’t think Reich wrote this particular political test.
http://blog.okcupid.com/
“Scientific” dating sites have been matching people on inventive questions and metrics since punched card days, without being Marxist.
I think some of the questions are reasonably revealing, but really needs a couple of choices like, “no answer”, or “you can’t ask that”, too many of these are “have you stopped beating your significant other” kinds of things.
I am not ruling out some form of taqiya here. Reason is that the “he was an anti-muslim/marxist/etc” evidence is just a little too perfect for my tastes.
This is the same thing as saying that the guilty party will be the one with the perfect alibi.
In this case the “perfect alibi” includes painting legitimate anti-jihadists
(Bat Ye’Or, Robert Spencer, David Horowitz et al) as inspiring mass murder.
In the same vein is the claim that the victims died because they backed Palestinian victims over Israeli aggressors.
Probably a few other indicators in the mix as well.
Should this “conspiracy theory” of mine be validated, then the planning and execution would necessarily involve professional staff work outside the normal
Arab/Persian matrix.
Conspiracy or no, there has often been dovetailing between westerners fascinated with the occult and Islamic fanatics/bandits pretending to be fanatic. The Third Reich was the most notorious but a long ways from the only.
Painting the Knights Templar and others as “occult” is a new twist on the theme. It goes along with the “perfect alibit” bit.
Now that is what I’ve got folks. Chew on it and tell me what you think.
In the 1920′s Japan was just two decades beyond a spectacular victory over the Russian Fleet, that showed how very far that culture had come in just half a century.
When Commodore Matthew Perry, in command of the U.S. East India Squadron appeared in the harbor just off Edo (now known as Tokyo) the handful of warships carried enough cannon to destroy the Japanese forces defending the Tokugawa Shogunate. He had studied the reclusive culture, and had learned from earlier expeditions that had failed to penetrate Japan’s xenophobic resistance. In successive visits, Perry used a mix of diplomacy, calculated theater and pageantry, and unrelenting persistence. Within two years, he’d worn them down without firing a shot, and was finally invited to present his letters from the U.S. President to the emperor in Yokahama. He traveled in a sedan chair carried by eight attendants, accompanied by over 300 military “retainers” and gifts including small arms, a telescope, farm implements, lifeboats, a telegraph, and a beautifully crafted pygmy steam locomotive with tender and passenger car.
The Japanese realized at last that they MUST transform their culture or be overwhelmed by the West. They began a prodigious remaking of their society, outlawing many of the feudal warring traditions that had dominated affairs for centuries, sending a generation of their brightest children to learn Western technologies and manners, spending their blood and treasure to purchase a fleet and train their own people to recast their martial traditions to the needs of a modern Western war machine, and their agrarian society into a modern manufacturing powerhouse, so that they would be able as soon as possible to build their own steel dreadnaughts. Within the span of less than half a century, they had managed to humble one of the great powers in a battle in the Straights of Tsushima, clearly establishing themselves as a major power, if not fully equal to the other Western nations.
But by the 1920′s the toll brutal wrenching of every long-held cultural institution, habit, and ritual, began to result in a spreading network of cracks and fractures. A fierce nationalism and hostile xenophobia began to emerge — surely it had been part of the mix that made the transformation possible in the first place. But now it began to prompt fanatics to “purify” the leadership. Throughout the decade, there was an accelerating wave of assassinations: bankers, diplomats, manufacturers, educators — particularly those who were seen as “Too Western.”
In time this lead the Military to seize control of the country. Doesn’t matter whether they’d been manipulating it, or just took advantage of the trend, or maybe even did so to prevent their country from descending into chaos. The result was that the agenda of the Military rulers became the agenda of the entire nation, no dissent or alternatives allowed.
Look at the attempts of Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi to push Iran’s medieval culture into the 20th century. Remember how the Islamic Revolutionary leaders began to slaughter their own people in the first few years after the fall of the Shah and the takeover of the U.S. embassy? We hadn’t even had time to learn how to pronounce their names, and the guys who’d helped establish the new Islamic Revolutionary government like Abolhassan Banisadr, and Sadeq Gobtzadeh, were either tossed out unceremoniously, arrested and executed for supposed counter-revolutionary activities, or just murdered. It’s fair to say that much of the hostility to the Shah had been for his attempts to wrest control of the distribution of farming land from the mullahs, and for making it possible for Iranian muslim women to adopt provocative western attitudes, jobs, and dress.
I’m thinking the murderer in Norway might be acting out the same xenophobic nationalist fanatacism the world saw in Japan and Iran, and other countries that were forced to wrench themselves to accommodate changes that tore their cultures to shreds over several generations.
Just read that ABB’s father is Norwegian Diplomat and Labor Party member. Does not approve of sons actions and has been estranged from son for 16 years. Plenty of fodder there no doubt for the MSM.
Josh, I have no interest in how they have cutesied up their surveys in ways that amuse themselves. I was speaking more to the bankrupt foundation of “science” that constitutes the thin veneer from which they hector. Nothing new or even interesting results from their misuse of a broken “science” they no longer even understand. It is pathetic. Laughable. Just a bunch of immature libs on a circle-jerk.
Look back to Wilhelm Reich, a certifiable madman whose ideas did wind up being formative to Marxist social policy anyway, who did provide the “science” behind this idiotic quiz, for a glance into the inner rot of modern leftism.
Whatever else can be said about Anders Behring Breivik, his views are very emphatically against “The American Empire”. Like a typical demagogue, he refers to the United States (on page 1286) as “the last Empire on earth” and its European allies as “vassal states”. He writes, “The difference between the Middle Eastern and Latin American vassal states on the one hand and its European vassals on the other is that we are consider crown vassals with extra rights in the US cultural/economical Empire.”
He plots a mass deportation of Muslims from Europe (warning that the United States will go to war to protect Muslims). Page 1306, he has an interesting map plotting a massive carve-up of Turkey.
On pages 1462-1463, his list of “Successful militant organizations” includes al-Qaeda. He goes into depth on al-Qaeda, claiming, “If Muhammed was alive today, Usama bin Laden would have been his second-in-command. They follow the teachings of the Quran and as such have more than 100 million sympathizers and supporters…” He clearly admires al-Qaeda.
Anders Behring Breivik isn’t quite the man portrayed in the mainstream media. His revolution appears to have much in common with twentieth century fascism, particularly in his promotion of a vanguard of knights and an obsession with resurrecting an idealized vision of the past. Like many other political radicals, he appears to be highly narcissistic. Indeed, his violence appears to be a highly effective means to call attention to himself.
The anti-Americanism of Anders Behring Breivik isn’t much far away from the rantings of Hugo Chavez.
Breivik is not anti-American. He’s not pro-American, either. He includes North America in his umbrella of cultural Europe, that entity he strives to protect. When he gets down into American affairs, he’s surprisingly well versed on them.
In true fascist style, he not only hates Marxists but also capitalists. The man is a fascist, he will deny that with sincerity until the end, but he is no friend of capitalism to say the least. When he talks about Ameria it comes with an aura of disappointment. The United States, to him, is pursuing the self-same suicidal end that has Europe in thrall.
HE;s got little in common with American conservatives. By his own admission.
c @ 153: I was speaking more to the bankrupt foundation of “science” that constitutes the thin veneer from which they hector.
um, … ?
if this is an attack on all of science, mathematics, and quantitative methods generally, then on behalf of the number two I hereby defend their honor against your accusations, whatever exactly they are. I will take it as evidence that you have conceded the argument and apologized profusely if your computer, and indeed anything electrical or logical, continues to serve you. though Lord knows they tend to serve a lot of crazy purposes in this world, still without being crazy themselves.
–heinrich himmler is your huckleberry –the mystic teuton fantasist & flamboyant costume enthusiast whose visions by some freakish slipfault of nature became real for a short intensely bloody while.
dave, chewed on it and as you asked what we think i’ll tell you that tho everything you say seems right, it still requires the star player to be either a mind-controlled zombie or a very sacrificial conspirator willing to give up his life and take many other lives in a performance to act out what would boil down to a satire or parody of the image that the conspirators sought to discredit. Seems a lot of cost for the value payoff. But i need to chew on it some more –i’m missing something i think.
AP is now reporting that:
DENVER (AP) — Parts of the manifesto written by the suspect in Norway’s terrorist attacks were taken almost word for word from the writings of “Unabomber” Ted Kaczynski.
http://news.yahoo.com/norway-suspect-borrowed-unabombers-manifesto-200617817.html
How do people like himmler gain so much power? Well, he was a school teacher and poultry farmer, and could have, and normally would have, stayed right there doing that all his life, dark dreams and all. But that would have required some force to resist his proceeding right into that dream world pulling the real world in with him. As Darwin described her, mother nature normally forbids such a thing. Normally, but as we who have grown beyond childhood know, mother nature as powerful as she is, has no idea what she’s doing, she’s just manifesting the odds.
#3. Poor Fellow Soldier of Christ
Nice to see a raw antisemitic comment stay here witout response. Should we expect a similar massacre on Jews soon then?
Tell me, if the Jews have total control of the West, how come Europe and the current American administration are so hostile to Israel, allow Iran to develop nuclear weapons unmolested, while at the same time allow the Muslims to drive out Jews from Europe? To me the West is complicit in a declared genocidal conspiracy against the Jews in Israel while at the same time allowing Muslims to drive out Jews from the West to Israel so more Jews can be murdered. I can assure you if I as a Jew had even a little bit of control over the West none of this would happen. But then I don’t expect you to think rationally.
–pnina, you’re mistaken about this site –these folks savvy the meaning of the war on Israel and the jewish people and are staunchly on their side.
Apologies is someone’s already mentioned this, but the blogger at Gates of Vienna has similar concerns about personal responsibility, wretchard. Some people have even spread the word that he was ABB.
To apologize and become defensive in such a situation is the worst thing you can do. All that’s required is to condemn and condemn and condemn in order to separate yourself from the violence. How much better the world would be if moderate Muslims had been doing that for the last 10 years.
Interesting how my link coding got eaten. Here’s the Gates of Vienna post I mentioned.
http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2011/07/thoughts-on-recent-atrocities.html
salt lick, that is probably what is bothering wretchard –Gates of Vienna folks used to comment here and do still from time to time. The shooter’s writings mentioned GoV and a Norwegian anti-jihadist who frequents that blog. And really, despite all the encouraging words we may offer both blogs, there’s no silk purse anywhere from this sow’s ear –anti-jihadists have had a voice here and on on GoV and now an anti-jihadist has gone to murdering and suddenly the membrane or looking glass is passed through and what was an intellectual attempt to stop a war, to break down and deconstruct the causality, has stepped into what could be –from our side –the moot of all that striving, all those years. At both sites i’m sure the good people –western classicists all –are feeling pretty wet from the Rubicon. All we can do is offer our help in alliance in whatever form it may be needed. We’ve all been saying it for years, that none of this is likely to end pretty.
buddy
A discussion–more a dispute–at neo-neocon about whether talking of McVeigh and pointing out what seems to have triggered him is justifying his actions. Came from asking about an equivalence between him and ABB.
My contribution was that pretending that pointing out an inevitability or high probability is frequently conflated–deliberately and dishonestly–as approving or justifying the action in question. Ex is you can’t tell a feminist that women need to be careful without getting an earful of “rape apologist” or “victim blaming’. Reason, as far as I can tell, is to discredit and distract from the actual point by making the person raising it out to be a Bad Person.
BC has been pointing out, in detail with learned speculation, an inevitability. Turns out they’re right. Well, we knew that.
This is a miniature version of the Three Conjectures. ABB, from what we know if we take him at his word, went after what was causing the trouble and damaging Norwegian society. Expecting a lot of people to follow. We’ll see about that.
But pointing out an inevitability is not causing it.
ABB strolled calmly around the island targeting anything that moved; while the victims waited hours for the arrival of a SWAT team from afar. When SWAT arrived, ABB surrendered.
ABB will be eligible for parole in his forties. Will his outlook have changed?
The narrative we are getting doesn’t quite pass the smell test.
If this guy didn’t like Muslims and wanted to start a crusade/civil war to remove them, then wouldn’t the most obvious plan be to attack Muslims? Then the Muslims fight back against natives and he gets his civil war and his goal of removing them.
If a fellow is pro-European and anti-immigrant why shoot up European youth instead of immigrant children? Sure, they were labor party, but they were his own people that he avowed to defend, not the hated invader. This idiot couldn’t find a single mosque in Norway?
Does not compute.
His “manifesto” cites the major voices that speak out against Islamism in Europe. If someone wanted to discredit and demonize the anti-Islamists and conservative politicians in Europe by association, the manifesto is very convenient.
This comes on the heels of our own DHS telling us to look out for terrorists of the white middle class variety. There is a meta-narrative out there that Islam = peace, and native opposition to Islamists = evil and violent. This event fits the narrative a little too well, it plays right into the hands of the multi culti labor party politics.
Victor’s admonition to Wretchards says all there is to say about the chasm between American jurisprudence and the “fuzzy” arbitrary censurious drives of everyone else.
In America, last I checked, a murderer is tried as an individual for crimes against other individual plaintiffs, not as a ‘group’ against another ‘group.’ In other words, no court would ever indict, say, Charlton Heston or Sarah Palin for a gun crime. (This is where victims group identities and the prevalence of class action lawsuits serve to corrupt America’s judicial system.)
But, in media, and in other countries that lack our constitutional guards against autocracy, it is a common proposition that innocent bystanders can be smeared with guilt vicariously by other ‘groups,’ (ex. the NAACP group accusing “Conservatives” of racism), jailed simply on an accusation by the best connected patronage groups in society, or see their licenses, permits and opportunities pruned by the state’s regulatory agencies.
No, in Victor’s world, and MSNBC’s world, and in that, too, of the globe’s statist-elites, individuals are NEVER responsible for their actions. Smoke too much, eat too many trans-fats, have Erectile disfunction and like to shoot up primary schools? It’s not your fault – it’s some group’s fault.
Some law wasn’t passed, or some culinary school-group mis-trained its chefs in the class on shortenings, or societal taboos asserted by key “groups” make you anxious and effect your performance in bed, or, you listen to Glenn Beck and ‘hate’ this or that ‘group.’ Out of this contorted philosophy springs a rationale for evermore laws, evermore paternal government, evermore social stigmatization of certain “groups,” and evermore pressure to elimate Americans’ right to bear arms.
To focus simply on individual responsibility, of course, deemphasizes the Left’s chronic agenda items. Vicarious guilt is essential to their project, let’s not give it to ‘em.
Victor, nothing personal Mate, but lets try importing a little of American jurisprudence to your side of the pond to see whether it doesn’t fit you better than Europe’s stifling constraints do. Try it…I think you’ll like.
-S
VoxDay’s take:
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=325637
This guy seems to be a prototypical NAZI – except in his scheme switch the roles of the Jews and the Muslims.
He’s a violent, authoritarian, anti-capitalist, racist promoter of his own version of white/european supremacy with some deranged ideas of christian ideals. The Left to him are what the Soviets were to the NAZI’s – a rival authoritarian gang to be eliminated.
But why would he expect his envisioned followers to rise up in his Neo-Nazi Helter Skelter to kill defenseless leftist kids? I guess the guy was just really deranged with some bigtime hatred issues of his father.
I don’t understand this “violence discredits your cause” argument. Islam hasn’t been discredited in the eyes of the antiSemitic, antiChristian multiculturalists by its violence; indeed the violence of Islam raises its stature. Environmentalism hasn’t been discredited by the violence of Theodore Kaczynski. Civil Rights, Affirmative Action, and Racial Equality haven’t been discredited by the violence of the Black Panthers (or any of the many, many other black racist murders). Socialism hasn’t been discredited by Mao, Castro, Pol Pot, Stalin; indeed its stature is higher than ever (why is mystery to me).
Who cares what ideas in which Breivik slew his victims? Breivik true inspiration is Charles Manson, who also wanted to start an internecine war (Helter-Skelter). Breivik’s actions have supplied a Reichstag Fire to Islam and the multiculturalists to use to attempt to discredit people who would preserve liberty and the West.
I supported racial equality until the Black Panthers murdered people; now I’m a racist.
I supported feminism until Valerie Solanis shot Andy Warhol; now I’m a male chauvinist pig.
I supported environmentalism until Kaczynski murdered people; now I’m a capitalism polluter.
I supported Islam until 9/11; now I’m an atheist.
I supported Zionism until the King David hotel bombing, now I’m…, oh the heck with it. I don’t believe in anything.
If one is opposed to violence, in the end, one must believe in nothing.
Josh, I wasn’t attacking science, but rather Wilhelm Reich, lunatic, “scientist”. Google him to see what I mean. The guy was actually nuttier than Breivik. It is amazing how much of a nutter you can be, and still find audience, if you bow to the proper gods, as Reich proves.
Along these lines, Ed Driscoll had a trenchant observation: at last we have found a terrorist who _isn’t_ someone’s freedom fighter. Gives some pause.
Several folks have blurred the lines between historic chivalric orders. The Teutonics and Templars were different. The Templars were supposedly destroyed (that whole Friday the 13th thing…) but one claiming the name popped up in this thread at #3.
The Teutonic Knights, as we call them, were fractured by the reformation and then supressed around WWII. The Catholic Church still has a clerical order, Orden der Brüder vom Deutschen Haus St. Mariens in Jerusalem, and there was a Protestant Bailey that survived and still exists in the Netherlands, Balije von Utrecht. Recently I’ve seen some associated hereditary orders claiming the name have been re-chartered and recognized, in Austria, Italy, and the UK. So governments are once again re-recognizing it in various forms as a military order (NGO of sorts). Historically speaking this was the Crusading Order that fought in Eastern Europe. They are not the Templars.
The Templars got zapped hard enough that the survivors went underground as it were. Lots of folks claim them as inspiration. Even more folks make elaborate and dramatic claims of occult knowledge derived from the Templars. Supposedly they picked up Pythagorean traditions while they stayed in the Holy Lands.
I know it’s not particularly relevant, but I saw the identifiers mixed in previous comments. We should use the right names, when we refer to who he claims he identified with.
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“This idiot couldn’t find a single mosque in Norway?”
It appears that as a neo-fascist that this guy has more in common with Islamo-fascists then he does the Labour Party of his homeland. But the commonality belie the fact that he is in competition with them as an equal but opposite force, Teutonic Knights of the middle ages verses the ascetic jihadist wearing the accoutrements of the ancient regime. Perhaps this episode is the Oedipus complex writ large.
Cowboy, I was fascinated by Reich in my salad years until I read more in depth about his theory of Orgone and Orgone accumulators; a real nutter.
RA/166; i hear ya. What i was trying to get at with the “whither himmler?” –right up to the point his SS started murdering, and even after that point, critics of the SS (say, a wretchard) could be cast as publicists for the object of their concern. The idea being, “shhh, shut up, don’t talk about it, it might go away –it might behave better –if we leave it alone”. And that, if you read the witness accounts, is exactly how it is that no one stopped the Nazis. That is, short of a stupifyingly apocalyptic war.
Wretchard, Buddy, Salt Lick, others –
Hi, it’s been a long time. Thanks for your support. As you can imagine, it’s been kind of a rough ride.
Fjordman is the most decent and humane person I know, and the two catastrophes — the slaughter of his countrymen, and then the vile, scummy people who named him as the shooter — were almost more than he could bear. He was devastated.
The good news is that the Scandinavian media have actually linked directly to GoV, so that hundreds of thousands of people are now reading Fjordman’s writings for the first time. They can find out for themselves what he has to say.
I’m sure that’s not what his enemies wanted.
I don’t comment here much anymore because I don’t have the time. Our relative success turned our blog into a 16-hour-a-day job. But I know Dymphna stills shows her face here from time to time.
What a long strange trip it’s been.
Why would intelligence agencies monitor this blog?
Finally, the MSM finds a terrorist who is not a freedom fighter:
http://pajamasmedia.com/eddriscoll/2011/07/24/one-mans-terrorist/
BB/178; hang in there, friend. great nugget of good news re scandinavian media reading fjordman. could be front end of a game-changer. but watch that six –everything costs.
Good to hear from you Baron. I still lurk over at GoV from time to time. Fjordman is a real treasure. Cheers to him and you and Dymphna and chin up. There’s nothing like your news feeds and content anywhere on the net.
Rough – “Why would intelligence agencies monitor this blog?”
Something to do while CNN is on a commercial break?
Buddy –
Thanks very much. Yes, I realize the costs.
Some of our people had never actually taken fire before, and they were hit pretty hard. Others — like Elisabeth Sabaditsch-Wolff, who has already been tried, convicted, and fined in Austria for talking about Mohammed’s pedophilia — were staunch.
As I said last night, “This is a WAR! Did you think it was tiddly-winks?”
Some of us may go to prison for what we do, especially the Europeans. Some of us may even die — think Theo Van Gogh. Those are the stakes.
Like it or not, Breivik’s actions have also pushed to the forefront the debate between nationalism, immigration, and globalization.
It’s much tougher to ignore the concerns of the anti/limited-immigration voices given the scale of this tragedy, and next to impossible for the traditional media to serve as gatekeepers barring the public from reading for themselves the possible motives, inspiration, and logic behind this horrific event.
@BB/178, even in my own country, the immigration debate is extremely heated. My fear is that more and more of the disenfranchised would resort to violence, just like Breivik. He has opened the gates – will the flood follow?
bl @ 177: And that, if you read the witness accounts, is exactly how it is that no one stopped the Nazis. That is, short of a stupifyingly apocalyptic war.
Let me noodle a bit here. Hitler filled a vacuum in leadership, trust a nutter to jump eagerly into any such gaps. But the national socialists were largely (certainly not entirely) rationalists, “scientific” (hello cowboy). The whole world was seeking scientific socialism, in Italy, Britain, USSR, even the US. This was the hayday of twentieth century science, maybe it could do government and society as well as electricity and transportation. Which is to say, nobody stopped Hitler because to a large degree, he seemed to fit the bill of being modern and trendy … and right. Oh, perhaps a bit crude, but the arrivistes so often are. Remembering that if Hitler had not attacked Communist Russia, it is questionable what role the US would have taken in WWII, or at least when. (And if he had not, as part of his arrogance, scapegoated the Jews, well, write your own alternate history here)
In this, perhaps, we have a difference with the case of Islam. Nobody in the west thinks Islam is right. Perhaps harmless, as a religion necessarily archaic, maybe even cute in a multiculti sort of way, the innocence of the primitives. But not Right.
Though (noodling onward) perhaps what could be said of the present is not that the enemy is right, but that we, all full of original sin as westerners, are Wrong. In the minds of certain “liberal” turds.
Victor describes this mass murderer as a “zionist aka christion”
Cute. This guy who justifies assiciation with Nazia and identifies with Jew-slaughtering crusaders is a “zionist”.
So Victor finds a way to blame the Jews in classical antisemitic style. Not a Jew in sight but he is a Zionist. Let alone the point that his false Christianity needs to be labelled as such.
Then he has the chutzpah to scold Wretchard and tell him how to run his website.
183. Annoy Mouse: LOL!
r @ 179: Why would intelligence agencies monitor this blog?
They, and/or their bots, monitor everything. So whatever you say, don’t mention “plutonium”.
–
And now for something completely different, Rush was just detailing the newest budget proposals from Boehner and associates. Couple of trillion in “cuts”, no new “revenues”, short-term, in exchange for raising the debt limit.
Only the Fox report says they (Reid, cough cough) are counting as “savings” money NOT spent on Iraq and Afghanistan. Swell. I have in my pocket a Roosevelt dime that is not being spent on Iraq and Afghanistan, so I guess it’s part of the trillion in cuts and savings.
Random thoughts:
I wonder why on average, crazed non-Muslim terrorists are more effective killers than crazed Muslim terrorists. If I was a Jihadi, I think I’d be a little humiliated by the fact that in the one thing I truly excelled at, non-Muslims were STILL better than me.
I have nothing against examining the role of ideological inspiration here, as long as it works for Muslim terror also. If we can talk about the influence of paranoid rantings on right wing blog sites leading to murder, can we talk about paranoid rantings in the Q’uran leading to murder?
Hours after a Muslim attack, the second thing you hear from the Media is concern that it might provoke “backlash”? Has any media talking head been worried about backlash against conservatives?
Things we will not see: Streets named in his honor, mobs celebrating his deed, clerics praising his heroism. More: The Intelligentsia noting his “Legitimate grievances”, or recommending policy changes to avoid provoking more attacks of this kind.
Bugs@24: “The US, despite what our leftist critics believe, has always been a full-on multi-culti freakshow.”
I do believe that is one of the most accurate descriptions of the United States that I have ever seen. EXCEPT…multi-culti implies a salad. We used to be more of a melting pot, but have morphed into a salad over the last few decades.
The way it works best, IMO, is that when people move in here, some of them rubs off on our culture and our culture swamps their previous culture. What’s left is what was here before their arrival plus the best aspects of their culture maintained in corners of the overall environment.
Multiculturalism, by definition, strives to maintain completely separate identities between different groups. When you have no accommodation and merging of groups to form a new whole, you essentially are encouraging neverending friction and potential for tragedy.
I see no happy ending in all this for Scandanavia, just as I see no happy ending for us if we don’t go back to our former melting-pot model at some point soon.
BB/178, yes, Theo Van Gogh, the stakes. i think uncle Vincent was bedeviled by the same thing and tried to paint it away. He started out a preacher, trying to warn.
190 Swami: “Things we will not see: Streets named in his honor, mobs celebrating his deed, clerics praising his heroism. More: The Intelligentsia noting his “Legitimate grievances”, or recommending policy changes to avoid provoking more attacks of this kind.”
DUDE. Don’t you realize that this guy was a hero to our people? He’s….he’s…one of the MINUTEMEN for crying out loud. You can’t keep pushing people and not expect them to push back!
/SARC
One thing we should make clear here is that Anders Behring Breivik is not “Right Wing” in the American sense; he is part of the European Fascist Left. The Fascist Left is just a little to the right of the Marxist Left. The American “Right” is empowerment of “We the People” against totalitarianism of either the Marxist or the Fascist Left. The American “Right” is real Power to the People via just government power which derives from the informed consent of the governed – securing their equal God-given unalienable rights to life, liberty and fruit of labor in pursuit of happiness. The American “Right” is the Declaration of Independence, Bill of Rights and Constitution. In this country (The United States of America) we should not refer to Fascists as “Right Wing.”
http://bcmoney-mobiletv.com/view/1083/the-american-form-of-government/
J/186; re ‘noodling forward’ –you may be wrong. Item, mid-oughts, western left refusing to recognize liberation of Taliban women and Ba’ath victims. Seemed to be BDS, but from here GWB is almost inconsequential. So, what, then? Islam is ‘right’ is what –the submission of the collective, attractive on several counts to the western left. Which of course, incoherently also simultaneously idealizes perfect personal freedom from duty, obligation, and tradition.
–but why nitpick, their hearts are in the right place, at least, while we don’t even one. heart, i mean, on the right. Wait, the heart IS on the left, right? Maybe they are all ‘cardiac realists’ while we are ‘central nervous system realists’
174. aaron
Most people use the word ‘teutonic’ as a synonym for ‘germanic’, not as a reference to a bunch of Crusaders who were contemporaries of the Templars.
Teutonic or Teuton(s) may refer to:
the Teutons
Germanic peoples
Teutonic Mythology
Germanic languages
Having qualities related to Modern Germans
Nordic race
Teutonic Knights
Yes the Teutonic Knights were a bunch of Crusaders, but they aren’t normally who one thinks of when using the word “teutonic”.
The issue is not multiculturalism but rather the one world project of the transnationaists. They want to block the world into one political entity. With one world government. The point of multiculturalism and free movements of peoples across borders is to corrode nation states until they have no national identity. Then they can be more easily taken over by the trans-nationalists. The anti christian anti jewish biz is the shadow play of islam and the sodomy elites who both compete for the top spiritual hand in the transnational game. (neither christians or jews are in that game competitively because the jews are too few and christians are too weak.)
Victor@121: “Richard Fernandez has never himself promoted genocide in his dispatches–he is innocent in this regard.
He has, however, provided a forum in which many posters have promoted genocide, racism, and religious murder.
We hope he will monitor comments diligently moving forward.”
Wow. Just….WOW. Yes, we must by all means make sure that people don’t have a way to let off steam. Damn the torpedoes and the first amendment, and full speed ahead!
121. Victor
Richard Fernandez has never himself promoted genocide in his dispatches–he is innocent in this regard.
He has, however, provided a forum in which many posters have promoted genocide, racism, and religious murder.
……………
This is really lazy and stupid writing by the resident kgb(or whatever the name of the successor agency) guy. This is what a life of zero risk, unending government checks and guaranteed pensions do to a man.
The only time Victor can be intelligible is when he writes about intensely russian issues like whether Medvenev’s diversification of russian industry has any chance against Putin’s corrupt bureacracy. Or whether chinese theft of russian technology is a good thing for russia. Or whether its a good thing for Chinese to come over the border into soviet siberia. Or why the average life span of Russian men is declining and what can be done about it.
Of course, Victor never writes about this stuff. Its a paycheck matter. The bias of the security agencies in Russia are naturally going to be for Putin.
“The issue is not multiculturalism but rather the one world project of the transnationaists.”
Bingo. And what is that project? The same as the Nazis, Maoists, Stalinists, and various other spawn of 18th and 19th century nihilists: to destroy the west, namely Christendom, to enshrine and build on the Original Sin and to reject the source of mankind’s greatest achievements over the prior thousand plus years.
That’s how we all knew, even if just intuited, that a hot war has been beginning and creeping forward these past few years.
And let me add to Storm-riders important point, above, that there needs to be clarity of thinking regarding the distinction between patriotism and nationalism. I’m sure the two will be conflated by those who are still hard at work trying to tear apart the only possible avenue to peace on earth.
Needless to say both Putin and Medvenev are nationalists.(That is they are not trans-nationalists.)
To some extent Putin (along with the Chinese and Saudis–who are also nationalists)can be credited with spiking the global warming scam at the big Scandinavian conference two Decembers ago.
Okay, Cowboy, if Mr. Breivik isn’t anti-American, how do you explain the following references from “2083”?
Page 930:
Revolutionary patriots like the Justiciar Knights will then be celebrated as destroyers of Marxism and the slayer of tyrants; the fearless and selfless protectors of Europe, The Perfect Knights.
Page 1095, repeated on Page 1099:
Many of us will have to sacrifice our life for the cause in order to destroy the tyrants of our time.
Pages 1286-1287
3.133 The cultural/economical American Empire – dealing with a tyrant – why
the Democratic and the Republican Party cannot be trusted
“From 1945 to the end of the [20th] century, the USA attempted to overthrow more than 40 foreign governments, and to crush more than 30 populist-nationalist movements struggling against intolerable regimes. In the process, the USA caused the end of life for several million people, and condemned many millions more to a life of agony and despair”.
William Blum, USA writer from the book, “Rogue State”
The US is the last Empire on earth. It doesn’t control its vassal states through direct territorial domination but rather through cultural and economical domination. It will generally allow their vassals (especially their Western European crown vassals) self determination as long as they don’t implement policies (cultural/economical) that hurts the US in any way. The US indirectly controls Europe, especially Western Europe, a legacy which it has maintained since WW2 and through the cold war until today. And of course, we have the many banana republic’s of Latin America, most of which are now included in the US cultural/economical Empire. The same goes for many African and Middle Eastern states. The US, often assisted by its other vassal states (through NATO) has ensured to place corrupt puppet leaders in charge of the majority of Muslim countries.
The difference between the Middle Eastern and Latin American vassal states on the one hand and its European vassals is that we are consider crown vassals with extra rights in the US cultural/economical Empire.
Methods used by the US to ensure order in the vassal states:
Threats/diplomacy
Psychological warfare (through its affiliated media corporations)
Various other forms of intervention including cultural, economical and military means
Economical hitmen, as soon as there is a regime shift in one of the vassal states (where a hostile leader emerges) the US will first send an economical hitman to demand loyalty from the new ruler. The hitman will present an offer; he will say f example; in one pocket I have 1 billion dollars which is a gift to you (or a suitable sum depending on several factors). In the other pocket I have a gun, which we will use to kill you should you refuse our first offer. The choice is yours. They will list multiple former regimes they have toppled/state leaders they have murdered etc. to attempt to scare the new regime from turning down the offer.
Since 1945, the USA has been responsible either directly or indirectly of helping remove dozens of governments, many democratically elected, around the world. Sometimes the events are kept secret for years and only slowly come out. Other times, the events are the cause of demonstrations, anger and resentment at the time they occur.
Whenever, an event like this occurs there are two reasons to be considered:
Reason 1: The reason given by the USA, its media and its friends around the world. Reasons like Communism, Terrorism, Fascism, Human Rights, Freedom, Liberation, Weapons of Mass Destruction, etc.
Reason 2: The actual reason. This is usually hidden from the general public and has to be looked for in quotes by under-reported officials or subsequent events on the ground. Often, the victims of the intervention/change of government know the real reasons better than the populations of the Western countries. Real reasons are many but usually include Business Interests, Access to Resources, Markets, Military Bases, Strategic Value, or Political Support.
#168 Jay
If a fellow is pro-European and anti-immigrant why shoot up European youth instead of immigrant children? Sure, they were labor party, but they were his own people that he avowed to defend, not the hated invader. This idiot couldn’t find a single mosque in Norway?
Does not compute.
I cannot speak to ABB’s mindset with any surety; for I like the rest of us am looking at this from a distance, with incomplete information, through the dark glass of assuredly inaccurate media reports [remember the old Napoleonic era French dictum, "to lie like a Bulletin"?], with the additional point that is not mentioned that we do not think like Norwegians. Different cultures have different thought patterns and templates on viewing the world.
That said to qualify my speculation; I note that it is a regular train of thought here that if TSHTF, it will be incredibly vile and violent. It will be beyond the comprehension of any who have not been through it before; and that includes Your Humble Servant. Many will not be able to take it. There will be a Time of Troubles [Смутное время]. Any breakdown in societal order [something far more serious than a transient breakdown in civil order] involves drawing hard lines. US -v- Them. It can be a civil war, it can be a religious or cultural movement, it can be a low grade insurgency between ethnic or cultural groups. But the line is drawn. And it is rarely a one way street.
I have repeatedly posited the concept of TWANLOC. The differences between those who rule us [or would rule us], and consider themselves to be an elite [and this crosses party lines] and those of us just trying to live our lives under a Constitutional order are apparent. Hell, just today there is a report [NOT yet confirmed] that under Boehner‘s Debt Ceiling Plan a “Super Congress” will be appointed, 6 from each House and party, to draw up a financial plan beyond the current round. This “Super Congress”‘s plan could not be changed by the “Lesser Congress”. Can’t find that in my copy of the Constitution, even in the penumbras. And Boehner leads the party in the House that is supposed to be on our side. The antipathy and contempt between the Political Class here and the people is already palpable and open.
Could it not be that a similar dynamic is in effect in Norway and other parts of Europe? I cannot speak to the specific dynamics of the Norwegian political culture, but some broad outlines are apparent.
1) They are, and have been for some time, ruled by the Left; with all the inevitable downsides of that.
2) In a Leftist ruled European country, free speech is superceded by political correctness to a degree that the American Democrats and MSM can only lust after. For any socially divisive issue, there is the approved position that the governing political/media elites decide; and any other position is automatically beyond the Pale and those who hold them are themselves not legitimate. In effect, declared TWANLOC.
3) While that may lead to a sense of structure and order that the elites prefer; it does not allow the peaceful hashing out of issues and evolution of society in reaction to the inevitable stresses and changes that occur. In the absence of that evolution, pressures build to an intolerable level.
In Europe, a mass movement like the TEA Party, unsanctioned by the powers that be, is inconceivable. Voting, outside a narrowly prescribed range of parties dedicated to preserving the status quo, is not practical. That is one advantage we have, if we will take it. We have a chance of changing things before the pressure builds up beyond tolerance. If that chance is denied us by TPTB; then the consequences are on them.
4) Europe, far more than the US, is a hodge-podge of mutual hatred between ethnic, religious, and class groups. They are not a unified people, except in those small countries that have homogeneous populations. A decision that someone or some group is TWANLOC comes a lot easier over there on any of a number of basis’ that we would not even consider. [Most Americans do not give an obese rodent's gluts if their neighbors' ancestors were conquered by Turks 500 years ago, or if Christian they cross themselves from right to left or left to right, or which side of the field at Culloden their ancestors fought on.] Despite their assumed sense of superiority over the inherently violent “cowboys” over here; Europeans have a far richer historical tapestry of group violence, internal warfare, and vicious government suppression of minorities.
5) This morning, news reports say that ABB admitted that his “prime target” was the Norwegian Prime Minister; who is head of the Labour [Socialist] Party that happens to be enforcing the PC regime, and protecting Muslims in Norway from the consequences of their actions. While I am not asserting this as necessarily true, because ABB’s reality testing indeed may be as out of whack as a thread at Democratic Underground; but it may well be that he decided that the Labour Party was the Norwegian version of TWANLOC. And that he decided to strike its current leadership AND given the nature of the attendance at the Labour Party Youth Leadership Conference, at its future structure.
His goal could have been to strike at the influx of Muslims by striking at those who shielded them.
And this may be a totally whacked out speculation. And I may soon be subject to chastisement by various persons who will assert that Europeans are in fact all happily marching in Socialist solidarity into the new dawn under the leadership of the best and brightest in Brussels. Oh well.
Subotai Bahadur
108. Subotai Bahadur
“The problem is, whether ABB was a loner or has allies; it is the inability to engage in legitimate political discussion and solutions of society’s critical problems that encourages violence as the only alternative to submission. And as has been discussed, if Justice is not seen to have been done, more violence will come.”
Bingo.
The key word in understanding Mr. Breivik’s attitude toward the United States is “tyrant”. He uses the word for the Soviet Union, he uses the word for Euro-socialists, and he uses it for the federal government of the United States. He apparently believes that if there is a revolution led by a vanguard of Templars in Europe, “the cultural conservatives of the US will rise and fight their own tyrant as they know they will have the complete backing of a strong Greater European cultural conservative Federation.” (page 1248)
In other words, he seeks revolution in Europe and then expects American cultural conservatives to install an allied (or puppet) regime in sympathy.
Reuters
By Mohammed Abbas
OSLO | Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:11am EDT
Analysis: Norway massacre exposes incendiary immigration issue
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/25/us-norway-multiculturalism-idUSTRE76O3H220110725
British Prime Minister David Cameron, Germany’s Angela Merkel and France’s Nicolas Sarkozy have all declared in recent months that multiculturalism has failed, in speeches that were otherwise careful to highlight the contribution of immigrants.
Another interesting remark by Mr. Breivik on page 1248 is, “However, Europe should not help directly as we can’t risk a nuclear war devastating both the US and Europe.” In other words, he envisions a possible trans-Atlantic Cold War between the United States and Europe and hopes to use “cultural conservatives” as a Fifth Column within North America.
Charles@197: “The anti christian anti jewish biz is the shadow play of islam and the sodomy elites who both compete for the top spiritual hand in the transnational game. (neither christians or jews are in that game competitively because the jews are too few and christians are too weak.)”
I of course can’t speak for Catholocism or any of the other branches of Christianity that aren’t my own, but I’ve spent time in Lutheran and Evangelical churches, and both of those at the time I was in them were not at all INTERESTED in political gamesmanship. It wasn’t that they were too weak…both churches more or less would shrug such issues off quoting “render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar’s” or some similar verse from the Bible and get on with trying to better understand issues of redemption and such.
If a “religion” is interested in politics and control, that’s a dead giveaway that it is no religion at all, but a purely political movement. True religions, like most Christianity, Buddhism, even Hinduism (which seems to have SOME shades of a political organization, IMO) and various animisms tend to shun politics in favor of salvation, enlightenment, and so forth. About as far as most real religions go into politics is as far as they must to try to create a situation where they will be left alone to worship as they wish in peace.
Islam–at least what I’ve seen from my own vantage point–is the least religious of all the religions I can think of offhand.
Regarding me@208, I should add that I number Judaism as among true religions. The existence of the state of Israel may militate against my own definition of a religion, but I’m inclined to understand why jews would feel they need such a thing, given their history and the fact that they are surrounded by 300,000,000 deadly enemies. If their shoe was on my own foot, I think I’d feel much like they do.
Subotai Bahadur @ 203
“And that he decided to strike its current leadership AND given the nature of the attendance at the Labour Party Youth Leadership Conference, at its future structure.
His goal could have been to strike at the influx of Muslims by striking at those who shielded them.
And this may be a totally whacked out speculation.”
No, not whacked out speculation at all, but spot on. I’ve also drawn the same conclusion (and have lived 4 years in Norway to boot).
Jay 168,
This event fits the narrative a little too well, it plays right into the hands of the multi culti labor party politics.
You are saying that they killed their own children. Prove it or stand accused of being an insane troll.
To Richard and the regulars, here is a view from a long time reader.
It is apparent that Richard has concerns about the future of this blog, or he should. And it’s time for Version 3 of BC.
Version 1 was ‘wretchard the cat’
Version 2 was ‘Richard Fernandez’
Version 3 should be ‘A Legal, Private, Subscriber based network’
BC has done an outstanding job of mapping the issues facing us, we have done enough talking, and the left is going to marginalize BC soon.
So it’s time to stop talking, start taking care of each other. BC should become a foundation for helping people run their life without interference from large corporations, academics, hollywood, silicon valley and politicians.
BC, with its extraordinary group of talented individuals, should help each other lauch their own small companies and networks, with the goal of leaning away lefty institutions.
First, we need our own banking and credit facilities. We have to stop the big banks from controlling us, and it is perfectly legal to start our own bank.
Second, we need an IT infrastructure, so we can keep the prying eyes of Google/Facebook out. Build a secure infrastructure so businesses and consumers can depend on it.
Third, Lawyers. We need lot of them to defend each other from the left. We need to use the infrastructure built by the left, use the rules they created to defeat us.
How do we go about doing it?
BC could become a members only, paid, subscriber based network. Members should pay, like $10 to $50 a month, to run the club. Richard and some regulars could become paid, fulltime staff, LL3 could become a legal counsel and so on.
Think about it!!!
205. Alexis
In other words, he seeks revolution in Europe and then expects American cultural conservatives to install an allied (or puppet) regime in sympathy.
……..
This strategy has worked well for the sodomy elites in europe and america. With the legalization of gay marriage in new york–american christian conservatives now expect that the next step for the sodomite elites will be to make preaching against homosexuality a hate speech crime in the United States — as has happened in Sweden.
http://www.soulwinning.info/rights/criminalizing.htm
AG, you raise an interesting point, and I think things are changing regarding religion’s willingness to take political stands (which I would disagree is an indication that they are necessarily political movements rather than religions).
Re. the Jews, one salient characteristic of their long and glorious history has been the ambivalence about marrying the religion with some kind of nation-state, a primary reason for the diaspora. but from time to time, as under King David, they do coalesce.
As for American protestants and Catholics, taking political stands is increasingly seen as necessary. I would say this is a natural response to the fact that there is a state religion that just can’t be left to do what it wants any longer.
212 — sounds like what Simon Black of Sovereign Man is trying to create with his subscriber network and libertarian colony in Chile.
Charles – “With the legalization of gay marriage in new york–american christian conservatives now expect that the next step for the sodomite elites will be to make preaching against homosexuality a hate speech crime in the United States”
My take on it is that the progressive left hand in glove with government is sweeping group by group into the specially ‘loved’ category that comes with privileges like being protected by armed thugs from the government. Once you have all of the self defined ‘loved’ groups under the aegis of a fascist state then anyone left over is part of the ‘hated’ group. But see how clever this is? They focus on those who are ‘loved’ and never have to mention their unmitigated vile hatred for ‘traditional’ males. Fascists have long required a hated figure (Jews, et al) to practice their version of statist policies. The Homosexual intelligencia are creating a government protected hate group and you will be punished for it plain and simple. Eventually, men with guns will come and see to it.
LUA 212,
Transforming The Belmont Club into a private, subscriber network would result in a greatly reduced readership base, and thus result in the very thing the American Left desires – a greatly reduced BC readership. Reducing the readership base of The Belmont Club is in fact the marginalization to which you refer – why should it be self-imposed? Marginalization of BC through Leftist government power (law &/or regulation) is a violation of man’s God-given unalienable right to freedom of speech and press – a violation of the American Bill of Rights – an act of government tyranny.
“If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter.” George Washington
Surely patriotic Americans (and others overseas) can organize themselves into banking and business activities without limiting freedom of speech and press – the latter is what the American (and International) Left desires – why help them?
i would think that a libertarian joining a colony –by definition viable only to the measure of its united solidarity –no longer libertarian. Maybe libertine, yowza!
This thread is like a college dorm all-night bull session that has gone on far too long. I’m feeling the same way about this blog. We just keep saying the same things over and over and over. I know: I’m as guilty of this as anyone. Lately I’ve been feeling this way about all blogs, even the ones I like–especially the ones I like. (Notable exception: Iowahawk.)There’s a sense of overload, of too much of the same; of weariness. Too much clutter. On and on it goes, talking endlessly and saying the same things about the Left, Islam, Obama, the media, religion, terrorism, war; talking about conspiracies, about the coming apocalypse…. It’s not doing me any good anymore. “It’s not you, it’s me.” I guess it’s time to go. I’m going back to the weeds and I don’t think I’ll come out for a long time. Maybe never. To vote, yes; otherwise I’m staying put.
Subscriber based network?
That’s a funny thing that small groups think they can be self supporting of their own infrastructure and economy. Every conservative that I have ever argued with will tell me that we need to have trade relations with China, East Timor, and Somalia because nuthin’ will ever work in a global economy unless we send all of our money to Saudi Arabia, China, or Mexico with nothing in return but trade deficits and borrowing.
Now I am to believe what wont work on a global scale just might work on a community scale? Unbelievable.
Simon Black of Sovereign Man? Sounds like another Timothy Ferris.
LUA@212: I suppose there might be something that could be done to improve Belmont Club…but I’m hard-pressed to name anything myself. W has created something here that nearly nobody else on the ‘net has managed…to facilitate a group of brilliant (each in their own way) people who mostly take the discussions seriously and THINK about what they are posting. Partisanship is present but rarely bitter or anything but respectful, or dismissive at worst.
I’ve read this thing since, oh, I think it was early ’04. I found it a few months after W started it anyway. I’ve posted under a couple of different nicks before AP in the early days. But in the 8 years or so I’ve haunted/lurked/posted in this place, I’ve never come across it’s like anywhere else.
And there are many people out there looking for just such a place. Taking it offline into a private arena would deny them the chance to find what they’re looking for. Unless W comes under direct personal physical or legal threat or something of the kind, I encourage him to please continue to do this in the same way he has for as long as he has the energy to continue. I think I speak for the majority here when I say that it is much appreciated and we’d probably be willing to help in any way we could; he just has to say the word.
But under no circumstances would I want to see W drastically change or discontinue BC because of ethical considerations about whether some freak halfway around the world saw something here that W may or may not have written and was inspired to raise hell. I understand the impulse to reexamine your potential culpability in things, but in cases like this what happened was the fault of the guy who did it. Nobody else’s, and absodamnlutely not W’s.
And dammitt, W, I need your posts as a catalyst in forming my own thoughts about events. Things are picking up steam worldwide in ways definable and otherwise, and I have no idea how long we go through a “polar shift”. At THAT time, perhaps it would make sense to take BC underground. Not before, though.
214. maineman
Zionism goes back at least as far as Moses; the whole ‘promised land’ being a settled state.
IIRC, the Constitution prohibits state support for any religion. Yet the bulk of recent Federal spending is entirely oriented towards Gaiaism / Wiccan belief systems.
There is no science to back up global warming. There is ample evidence that the Arctic is being influenced by Red Chinese soot emissions. Obviously, it’s beyond American control.
Annoy Mouse@216: “The Homosexual intelligencia are creating a government protected hate group and you will be punished for it plain and simple. Eventually, men with guns will come and see to it.”
You just jogged a memory. I once read L Ron Hubbard’s decology “Mission Earth” (not to be confused with his “Battlefield Earth”, which was good but made into an excreble movie). It gets cartoonish in the last few books, so much so that I almost didn’t finish, but his ironic treatment of “the system” avidly encouraging the population to become gay to reduce population growth was hilarious.
AP
A guy I worked with ran a government project into the ground for the tune of around $10mil. Anybody in this organization who as much failed to earn 5% always got canned so around that time he came out of the closet by starting a gay and lesbian bowling league. He inoculated himself there for a year or more from getting fired by being a homosexual (and the stories I heard about naked parties in his classified lab, yuck). Anyhow, you may be born black or a Jew but if you decide to pack coal where the sun don’t shine you have protected status.
If we all go gay to protect our civil rights it will come down to who is the most gay and how would you go about proving it?
Subotai,
Some years ago, I was having a conversation with a Norwegian exchange student studying in our history department, trying to give an impartial account of lingering American regional animosities going beyond just our Civil War legacy. He laughed and said that “Norwegians consider the villagers in the next vally to be foreigners”. Growing up in Minnesota, I had encountered the same sort of attitude among the old-timers who had immigrated here in the 1890s. The Norwegian traditionalist might well reject the concept of TWANLOC in preference for Those Who Never Were Our Countrymen. Remember what European peoples did to each other during the Religious Wars of the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Century. The Treaty of Westphalia, ended the Thirty Years War and establishing the modern state system in 1648. It is said that in America 500 miles is a short distance, but in Europe 500 years is only a short time. A breathing space. And I have heard frequent discussion among the Eurofools that the Westphalia Nation-state system is obsolete and needs to be scrapped. This nay be a taste of what will replace it. Eto tolko tsvetochki, a yagodki vperyod! (These are only the little flowers, the berries are yet to come).
210/Anduril & Subotai Bahadur/203
Several posters have addressed the question of why ABB didn’t target Muslims directly. Just when you think things couldn’t get any stranger, I encountered this info in another discussion on Free Republic which seems to shed some additional light.
**************** excerpt from FR poster drpix ***********************
Norway Killer: Must ‘Kill Civilian Children To Earn Trust of and Reach Common Ground With Islam’
From Killer’s Own Words: “…The Islamic Ummah should view our enemies; the US/EU globalists, as a greater threat than we would ever aspire to be. The reason is that we do not wish to destroy Islam but simply to isolate it primarily outside Europe.”
“Assuming we will ever seek common ground, which is unlikely at best, the problem will be the authentication process. How can the Ummah, the enemy of our enemy, know they are really dealing with a Justiciar Knight and not a CIA or EU agent? How can it be proved that the individual seeking to become a proxy for the deployment of nuclear/radiological/biological/chemical weapon(s) isn’t an undercover agent working for the US or a Western European country’s intelligence?”
The difference between an agent and a Justiciar Knight is that the latter will be willing to make a great sacrifice for the purpose of proper validation. Now what kind of sacrifice would be great enough to remove all doubt that the candidate is not a EU/US agent? A Justiciar Knight is willing to martyr himself for the cause while a EU/US agent will not be willing to sacrifice much. The entity should demand that the alleged Justiciar Knight in question surgically remove his penis and testicles and/or execute a fixed number of civilian children.” – [Manifesto, {page 960 (of pdf file)]
And this:
Many have asked if he was an anti-Islamic Crusader, “why didn’t he target Muslims rather than Norwegians?” Here’s another excerpt from his manifesto:
“Authentication process when acquiring nuclear/biological/chemical weapons from the enemies of our enemies
There might come a time when we, the PCCTS, Knights Templar will consider to use or even to work as a proxy for the enemies of our enemies. This might be an option if we feel that conventional approaches are fruitless or if the intelligence agencies/system protectors working for the Western European regimes successfully manage to neutralise our long term efforts to liberate our countries.
Under these circumstances, the PCCTS, Knights Templar will for the future consider working with the enemies of the EU/US hegemony such as Iran (South Korea is unlikely), al-Qaeda, al-Shabaab or the rest of the devout fractions of the Islamic Ummah with the intention for deployment of small nuclear, radiological, biological or chemical weapons in Western European capitals and other high priority locations. Justiciar Knights and other European Christian martyrs can avoid the scrutiny normally reserved for individuals of Arab descent and we can ensure successful deployment and detonation in the location of our choice.” – Breivik Manifesto, p.959 -LINK
This excerpt appears just before the original excerpt of this post/thread and gives another motive for the killer “proving” himself thrust worthy to possible Islamic allies. And tells us why he did not target Muslims.
************** end excerpt from FR poster drpix ****************
Curiouser and curiouser…
*Note that in executing his plan he conveniently omitted the “surgically removing his penis and testicles” part.
This is why I take issue with William Bennet and others who seek to define us as a “Confessional Nation”. What happens to those who hold a different confession? It reverts to “Who eats Who?”
Intelligent people are always somewhat uneasy about their thoughts and opinions. Wait, let me change that to wise people. If you realize that other people live in a bubble that shapes their world view, sooner or later you start to wonder if you are living in one. When you realize that you do, then you wonder to what extent it has, does, and will influence you in the future. Uneasy lies the head that goes beyond its comfort zone.
R/219, AP/221 just addressed your concern –even when the mood goes sour at the pace of change, you gotta find some way to keep your colors standing on the parapet. otherwise those who might want to rally to your side can’t find you or even be sure you’re there. And there’s new people on the hunt for common sense who have no idea of there being any repetition here, because they’re new arrivals unlikely to do any archival research. gotta have something up for them, even if you’ve already said it before more often than you can count.
It’s like the twelve bar blues –the form is fixed or it ain’t the twelve bar blues –but only that classic framework allows the fills and embellishments that make every artist able to jam a new sound entirely different that means something only because it is in a language the listeners understand.
Mein got! This guy really is a Nazi. Just a more ethically clear headed one than Hitler or the skin heads. This guy is talking about ‘cultural’ conservatism, as in conserving the culture of the Germanic peoples. To that extent, he is very un-American because cultural conservatism in the US is not about race, or tribes as he calls them, but is more akin to ‘God, mother, and apple pie’, hardly an ethic thing. He wasn’t too hot on Christians either. He was however a World of Warcraft aficionado. Maybe the Left ought to ban that.
From the manifesto;
The great Satan, his cult and the Jews
Whenever someone asks if I am a national socialist I am deeply offended. If there is one
historical figure and past Germanic leader I hate it is Adolf Hitler. If I could travel in a
time-machine to Berlin in 1933, I would be the first person to go – with the purpose of
killing him. Why? No person has ever committed a more horrible crime against his tribe
than Hitler. Because of him, the Germanic tribes are dying and MAY be completely wiped
out unless we manage to win within 20-70 years. Thanks to his insane campaign and the
subsequent genocide of the 6 million Jews, multiculturalism, the anti-European hate
ideology was created. Multiculturalism would have never been implemented in Europe if it
hadn’t been for NSDAPs (the Nazis) reckless and unforgivable actions. Eastern Europe would have
remained free, the US and Russia would never have risen up as super-powers. The
balance of power would have remained in Europe. And it would be a beautiful Europe
with beautiful cultural conservative policies – very similar to the ones you now find in
Japan and South Korea. Hitler almost destroyed everything with his reckless and
unforgivable actions and he will forever be known as a traitor to the Nordic-Germanic
tribes.
So, I am really speechless when I see the cult calling themselves national socialists
today. If you truly love our tribe, the Nordic tribes or any other European tribe, you must
learn and acknowledge that Hitler is a traitor to the Germanic and all European tribes,
NOT a hero.
…
Were the majority of the German and European Jews disloyal? Yes, at least the so called
liberal Jews, similar to the liberal Jews today that opposes nationalism/Zionism and
supports multiculturalism. Jews that support multiculturalism today are as much of a
threat to Israel and Zionism (Israeli nationalism) as they are to us. So let us fight
together with Israel, with our Zionist brothers against all anti-Zionists, against all cultural
Marxists/multiculturalists. Conservative Jews were loyal to Europe and should have been
rewarded. Instead, he just targeted them all… So, are the current Jews in Europe and US
disloyal? The multiculturalist (nation-wrecking) Jews ARE while the conservative Jews
ARE NOT. Aprox. 75% of European/US Jews support multiculturalism while aprox. 50% of
Israeli Jews does the same. This shows very clearly that we must embrace the remaining
loyal Jews as brothers rather than repeating the mistake of the NSDAP
…
But I was unable to discuss this issue further after I was banned and kicked out by Stormfront and another national socialist forum.
In any case; educate yourself and learn the difference. Today’s conservatives and want-to-be Nazis are ignorant when they obsess so much over the Jews. There is no Jewish problem in Western Europe (with the exception of the UK and France) as we only have 1 million in Western Europe, whereas 800 000 out of these 1 million live in France and the UK. The US on the other hand, with more than 6 million Jews (600% more than Europe) actually has a considerable Jewish problem. But please learn the difference between a nation-wrecking multiculturalist Jew and a conservative Jew. Don’t make the same
mistake that NSDAP did. Never target a Jew because he is a Jew, but rather because he
is a category A or B traitor. And don’t forget that the bulk of the category A and B traitors
are Christian Europeans. 90% of the category A and B traitors in my own country,
Norway, are Nordic, Christian category A and B traitors.
Unification of all European cultural conservatives under the KT banner
We will defeat the cultural Marxists/multiculturalists because they seek to wipe out
everything European. We will not forgive them and we will show them no mercy
whatsoever unless they fully capitulate to our forces within 2020. But we must fight them
for the RIGHT reasons, and NOT because we want to pick up what Hitler tried to do. So
for God’s sake; please join the PCCTS, Knights Templar as a Justiciar Knight in our pre-
emptive war against the EUSSR/US cultural tyranny under OUR banner, or any other, but
NOT under the swastika. 60% of NSDAPs policies were great classical conservative
policies and the PCCTS, Knights Templar share these conservative policies even today.
But the remaining 40% of the policies are not worth fighting for.
227. Rurik
Bennet had to confess his gambling addiction.
I rather suspect that’s the angle he’s coming from: the MSM hounds public figures until they confess.
—-
Alternately, Bennet used Confessional Nation in lieu of Religious Nation, a term that would have flamed the ears of the MSM.
—-
226. tharkun
Elsewhere on the web I’m reading that ABB actually had muslim friends in his teens.
Your post clearly indicates that he has more than a little bit of co-identification with the immigrants.
—-
227. Rurik
This is why I take issue with William Bennet and others who seek to define us as a “Confessional Nation”.
………..
imho Newt put this one a little better. He said that intra European relations were contractual whereas intra American relations are covenantial
Plutonium.
(Schmlutonium. Peanuts compared to the fury of old-timers who don’t get their checks next Tuesday. Arrest that cardiac realist – he’s got my pacemaker.)
Yes, Anders the Aesthetic Terrorist. My guess is that he gets ‘accidentally’ assigned to one of the more free-form penitentiaries and doesn’t last a year.
That publicity shot of him in the wetsuit with the gun looks fake. It might be the lighting but the line around his face looks artificial.
Apparently Norwegian intelligence picked up on him in March of this year.
Just looking at his face I see a giggler. Similar to the ‘giggle tell’ recently correlated with certain political figures. So far his psychological profile reminds me of Hinckley. There’s even a (faint) physical resemblance. If Breivik is part of a bigger picture, I’ll be surprised. Some interesting statistics on mental illness here: What makes a Behavior “Abnormal?
I see a dysfunctional outlier driven by delusions of grandeur who cleverly designed a platform for message delivery that reduced humanity to collateral damage – an ultra collectivist who assigns no value to the individual – when really the stakes are ‘so much higher.’ Classic terrorist profile. USA has had its share and should recognize the signs. Norway is (AFAIK) new to the world of civilian terrorism, although one wonders if their mental mindsets are open to the empiricism on their very soil.
Upthread was mentioned the rape situation in Sweden and Norway with perps being all immigrant Muslims. I had to look that up. It’s essentially true. Search on “Norway Rape statistics.” It’s not just rape, but criminal assault by gangs on the natives. I don’t know the latest on the “no go” zones in France, but assimilation as a societal model needs more work.
….
Rc@219: There’s a sense of overload…
Sen. Claire McCaskill (D-MO): To me, the only way we solve problems around here is by compromising and working together. Unfortunately, solving problems and winning elections — around this place — is too often like oil and water.”
I do not think that the Tea Party movement has been helpful in the on-going debt-ceiling discussions, which is another subject, but the public is, I think, formally “mad as h^ll” and looking for a solution to the twin dragons of Washington, where bipartisanship is losing mightily to ‘my way or the highway,’ and Wall St, where the Gordon Gekko brand has become tarnished. Moderation is losing to extremism in both venues.
AM/230, the other night an old 1940s comedy on Turner Classic Movies –set at a military academy, it’s the night of the big ball and the Commandant has just moved thru the hall and among others greeted his visiting daughter, there as the date of one of the cadets. As the Commandant moves away, the cadet turns to his date, exasperated, voice an octave high, and exclaims “Holy Smokes, how DARE you tell me you’re the Commandant’s daughter when you REALLY ARE the Commandant’s daughter?!”
Mass slaughter is not the opening gambit to dialogue. Whatever books or pamphlets or blogs Mr. Mass Killer read before he began killing innocents – well, he left all that behind when he pulled the trigger.
Don’t fall into the trap of trying to explain or understand Mr. Mass Murderer. That is to shower him with an undeserved respect/reason. It took the left all of about 10 hours after 9/11 (along with the MSM) to start looking at the attack “objectively”. That is, articles about the search for root causes, articles wondering if the terrorists didn’t have some reason/right given America’s foreign excesses, articles outright sympathizing with the terrorists, articles explaining the chickens coming home to roost, etc. That slush of sympathetic bile pushed me forever away from the left.
The internal conversation of the right since 9/11 has not been so concerned about the left; it picked up on the left’s soft-sympathy with the jihadists and has been mocking them (rightly) for it mercilessly ever since. The right has been trying to sort out “Root and Branch vs Crazed Minority”. Or “Feature vs Bug,” if you want to put it that way. Or, are we looking at a billion people out to get us or a sizeable minority, say 50 –100 million? (I’m of the sizeable minority school myself and I actually think as long as one Muslim mom derives peace and solace from her religion and passes on the values of peace to her children that Islam is a religion of peace — but this is not my point). My point is that in all the years of reading conservative or right wing blogs about this internal debate I have never come across any serious call to violence or arms against Muslims (or leftists for that matter).
Recall that after some jihadist attack the MSM and the left have no shame about saying things like: I wish it were not a Muslim that did it, I wish it were some white guy, etc.
ABB is a homegrown Nazi sympathizer who is beholden to his ‘tribe’ the same way ‘La Raza is obsessed with the furtherance of the Mexican ‘race’. He is also a pawn in a global tribal fantasy (MMORPG) in which ABB has created his own ‘Hero Class’ in a Burning Crusade of his mind. If he is not mentally deranged he is a violent man-boy filled with sophomoric fantasies and in possession of lethal weapons. DBUH
Annoy Mouse,
RE Nazi’s and “Right Wing:” This massacre is gonna scramble the Left’s friggin’ brains!
ON the one hand, ABB is, if you believe the Left’s framing of him, a “right winger.” As you can imagine, that term is used as a slur. But, and here’s just one of the twists this case tosses up, it’s Norway’s Socialists that are running the Socialist Youth Camps, and who openly label themselves with the third word coded in the NAZI acronym, “socialist.”
So, who are the real NAZIs here? Is it the armed shooter, or Norway’s “Youth Corps Socialists?” Is it the man who will murder children to make a political point, or the politicians that will herd impressionable children into isolated camps to form a perpetual political bloc? Is it the single suicide bomber, or is it the enabling society of NGOs, mosques and Imams that incited him?
These are waters too deep and murkey for a Chris Matthews, or a Keith Olbermann to ford. So they’ll keep it shallow and political to hide their ignorances and score their patrons’ political points. If there’s a way to spin this to assist Obama’s reelection, we’ll hear them spin it.
But here at BC we’ll dive in, head first. The worst that can happen is someone will be “wrong.” Well, that’s survivable – I’m evidence of that! Keep up the comments guys and don’t stop posting, Wretchard. You all are needed!
YBR v- “I do not think that the Tea Party movement has been helpful in the on-going debt-ceiling discussions, which is another subject, but the public is, I think, formally “mad as h^ll” and looking for a solution to the twin dragons of Washington”
Please don’t forget that the present administration in concert with Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi shoved a highly unpopular and controversial bill down the throat of the American people without even READING IT. Darn right people are angry. And those angry people are not content to watch our nation turn into a government by tyrannical decree as long as their voices might be heard. People want the runaway spending to stop. Personally, I think you can decrease spending by 20-30% by just eliminating waste, fraud and abuse. The lies and bullying are not ‘helping’ either.
From that link on abnormal behavior:
Perhaps the Norwegian Socialists should show more understanding towards people like ABB …
With the recurring caveat that we are correct in what we know of ABB from what he says, I would guess he struck the labor party in lieu of the Muslim community because the former was a concentrated locale of the problem. If he killed Muslims, the labor party and related institutions would import more. No real change. It’s the labor party and the rest of what we would consider more or less conventional political institutions that are the problem. Muslim immigration is one of the more obvious results, but ABB would want to strike at the core, the focus.
buddy larsen/229 and YBR/233:
Interesting comments.
I don’t know much anymore. I never did know much. But I do know this: I want the government to leave me alone, and I want a whole helluva lot of people who are in my life, in one form or another, or to one extent or another, to get out of my life.
I want to restore grace to my life.
Don’t interpret this as going soft or pacifistic. On the contrary, I and people like me can be, in certain circumstances, very, very dangerous. I recognize this about myself. Like the wolverine in the forest: leave him alone when he waddles by, and you’re okay. But disturb him, and, well … things could get very ugly.
Let this be a warning to politicians, Muslim terrorists and bigmouths, Leftist ideologues, arrogant credentialed academics, journalists, bullsh*t artists of every shape and hue, etc., etc., etc. I’m getting old. I turned 60 this year and the filters are beginning to fall away. Don’t rile me. Turnd down the damn music and get offa my lawn.
Robert Spencer of Jihad Watch, who’s had a rough day, was just on the radio saying that he’s seen the Islamists take “credit” for things they didn’t do but never, never claim an attack and then retract.
Roughcoat – “Turned down the damn music and get offa my lawn.”
I understand. Every so often, at least once a year, I go on news fast. It is hard to do because we are constantly bombarded with it but if you can get away from the TV, the radio, newspapers, and your usual circle of friends it is doable and the effect is amazing. The world can be distressing and every week brings a new outrage. It reminds me of beating to weather when I am sailing; you’re in the teeth of the wind and waves, you take a pounding, water sprays in your face, everything buffeting and fierce you hear your shrouds whistling. Then I turn around and now the waves are going my way, the wind is moving just a little faster than I, and everything becomes peaceful again.
Take a break and come back invigorated.
The excerpts from the manifesto are just as bent as I figured they would be.
Breivik doesn’t come out a whole lot more coherent than the Giffords wack job attacker Loughner.
It’s a problem, though. Dealing with the complex of issues is enough to twist almost anyone trying to think it through, until the best lack all conviction and the worst are filled with passionate intensity. Guess there’s nothing so new there after all, but neither do I have a magic solution.
But twisted ideology or not, here’s the thing. I’m curious what happens next. Again following the analogy to OKC, did it in fact have something like the effects intended. I hardly think it will do even 2% of what Breivik says he wanted, but just maybe even 1% of that would prove significant. What it then comes down to is, if it’s 1% effective, wasn’t there a BETTER WAY TO GO ABOUT IT? Because the acts are not just “attrocious” as Breivik apparently says of himself, but counter-effective in a big way as well. That’s why, when in doubt (which should be most of the time), try to follow those ten commandments, all of them.
we’re in the same boat, roughcoat. Life’s personal duties more or less concluded, kids grown up, should be enjoying life. This war –for DC as well as the west vs jihad, it’s all the same war, and it keeps me grim and i don’t know what to do about it. But i’m on short count too, in the cycle of life, and –well –what will it be, sir, cancer or heart attack? I’d rather go down waddling up the pasture with Pickett’s men, i really would, Mr Reaper, if you could arrange it.
***
“You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality”
–Ayn Rand
More comparisons: http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2011/07/right-wing-terrorism-as-folk-activism.html
All the comentary, all the suppositions, the guessing of what
drove a handsome young Norwegian to kill, will never come up with the simople
answer. Complexities abound. How about a simple explanation. Has he watched with anxiety, his nation decending to the appeasement of the left, the invasion by Muslims of his country. And the slow but constant erosion of the old values,
religion, laws, eating away at his desire to preserve Norway for Norwegians.
Could it be so simple?
On September 4th, beginning at noon Greenwich time, there will be an all-world, all-faith prayer day. Perhaps strengthening those faiths that do not believe in the right to kill those of other beliefs might help. And a hope that
others like ABB will understand the greater power of prayer–not guns.
The left/intelligencia/MSM has pretty much obeyed the dictats of the jihadists (overt and unspoken) and left Islam alone. The obviousness of the point doesn’t make it any less amazing to me. Anyone else? Why let go of satire — a great western technique for needling those who would excercise power over us. It is a great literary device with roots going back to late medieval Spain (and beyond) in “The Book of Good Love” on through Rabelias to Swift, Dickens, Twain…Why not make fun of a bunch of religious crazies (who are not Christian)? No Movie, TV show or play will dare. That the media/left saves its heavy pounding for Sara Palin and Michelle Bachman shows how weak they really are. Their choice of enemies is so feeble. They won’t go near jihad Islam for anything. To bring up jihad terror with the left in any context other than sympathetic understanding is to bring down calumny upon your head.
Annoy Mouse & buddy larsen:
Thanks for your comments–your encouragement, sympathy, and insights. Much appreciated, and much obliged.
I think I do need to go on a media fast: excellent advice!
I’ll be spending the weekends in August in the rural parts of Illinois and Wisconsin, taking part in sheepherding trials with my border collie and hanging out with stolid Midwestern rural folk, great people, none better. I just know this will do wonders for my outlook and attitude. Like tonic for a weary soul.
This is an ancestral activity, in ancestral lands. I’m Irish and German, half-n-half exactly. My German family emigrated to Wisconsin in the 1870s then moved to rural Illinois. My Irish family emigrated to Decatur Illinois in 1850 (“Famine Irish”): upon the outbreak of the Civil War, all the young adult males, Catholic Burkes from Ulster and Church of Ireland Luttrells from Meath and Dublin, enlisted forthwith, joining volunteer regiments in the Decatur, Illinois, area. Two great-granduncles perished in the conflict, both in the Chickamauga area: one fell in battle (his regiment was in the forefront of Maj. Gen. George Thomases’ rearguard action), the other died of diptheria in a nearby field hospital. My great-grandfather Wm. Burke enlisted at age 16 and served as a cavalry trooper until a bad fall from his horse caused him to be invalided out (he died young because of the injury).
I look at the photos of them in uniform; I think about my German grandfather and grandmother, who lived long, whom I knew well–born in the 1880s, died in the 1970s, can you what they lived through and saw!–and I know that I want to be like them. I look around at the Midwestern landscapes on hot mid-summer evenings, listening to the crickets, the wind stirring the cornstalks, and I feel their presence.
Comforting thoughts. Grace.
#224 Annoy Mouse
On a slightly more humorous, albeit sick note:
If we all go gay to protect our civil rights it will come down to who is the most gay and how would you go about proving it?
Believe it or not, that question has come up. I used to wear a badge, working for the State of Colorado. Whenever a Democrat is governor here, the State Department of Personnel attempts to impose part of their agenda. They have been trying to impose quotas and protected class status for gays and lesbians for all hires and promotions. A group of us, in the midst of a set of war stories, were discussing this, as in how to prove that you qualified for the quota. This was just after they required tribal registration paperwork showing 1/16 Native American blood to get that preference. Too many of the hated white males had Indian ancestors, so the preferences were not going to the desired group. We came up with: If you are Native American, you have to have the papers. If you are Black, Female, or Hispanic; it is usually visually apparent. And this lets TPTB count the double quota hits too. If they start given preferential promotions to Gays and Lesbians, there is only one way to do it. …. Convene an Oral Testing Board.
[ducking for cover]
#226 tharkun
That is in fact chilling. WMD exchanges in Europe. However, they will not be limited to there for long.
In reference to:
*Note that in executing his plan he conveniently omitted the “surgically removing his penis and testicles” part.
I admit that I may have missed it in the coverage, but I don’t think that any probative evidence, pro or con, has been publicly offered on that subject.
Subotai Bahadur
R/249, …and that right there is a valuable message –the good of a time out of message. And remembering one’s place in time. That old Celtic prayer, they used it in the movie 13th Warrior but it wasn’t written anew for the script, it goes way, way back. The movie version (there’s many, all roughly the same):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQnW4sciFy4&NR=1
I’d like to apologize, at least to my better self, for prior apoplectic murderous ranting on the BC. It was embarrassing at the time, and more the product of a road-rage-like impulse than any measured thought. I thank Wretchard for not posting some of my comments, which would have profaned all you good people.
It is chastening to open the manifesto of a mass murderer and see the arc – or much of the arc – of one’s thoughts splayed out before one. So, I am chastened.
Wretchard, your anxiety is understandable, because you are an honorable man. But you did not contribute to this atrocity. The coherent critique part of the manifesto is animated and populated by insights and historical investigations that should be obvious to any fair-minded person. The account of the Cultural Marxists is true, if not least because it is derived from conventional, generally non-”conservative” (i.e., in this circumstance, non-anti-communist) accounts written by members of the New York Review of Books set. Don’t worry man.
But as to Anders himself, and his account of himself, and the acts themselves. Have you guys read the diary that Black Five posted? I haven’t read more than the first 50 pages or so of the manifesto, so I don’t know if BlackFive’s material comes from there, but you guys should read it. It’s very interesting.
First, it’s very interesting because it exists at all. It really provides a very thorough account of salient events in this guy’s life, including his thinking and motivation and financials and daily habits and work-out regiments; accounts of his conviction that he could purchase arms in Prague, and then his failure to do so; his purchase of 100% pure nicotine, and so on, right up to early 2011, I believe.
Second, his associations are interesting. Somehow he became the Norwegian representative to that London meeting in 2002. All of this started because he somehow was contacted or he contacted a “Serbian Nationalist” who lived in Libera. He was also associated with a National Bolshevik editor of a magazine he hoped to collaborate with, and whom he admired, but things didn’t work out for reasons I can’t remember.
The thoroughness of the planning, and the time over which it was conducted, are sort of astounding. On the one hand, this is a young man who wants us to believe that his best friend growing up was a Pakistani. He began to turn against this Pakistani when he cheered when America was attacked, according to some headline, during the Gulf War 1. He himself claims the Europe-is-sacrificing-itself-to-Muslims light turned fully on not on 9/11, but when Clinton bombed Serbian Christians to save the Muslim Kosovars and Albanians.
This was, he says, in 1999 or 2000.
At that point – when he was about 20 – he knew his life’s mission was to earn $3 million in order to bear the cost of his historic mission to rid Europe of Cultural Marxist and Muslim immigrants.
Then he actually proceeded to do that. Somehow, he did amass some very large amount of money by the time he was about 25. He then abruptly quit his work (sold his company?), bought a farm, and – he told his friends – began working on “his book.” He continued this determined, detailed, mammoth fraud on all those around him, including the stepmother he moved in with when he was 30 – 5 years after quitting his job and 10 years after his epiphany.
As you read through the account… I don’t know, does anyone else think all this detail, all this explanation, all this theorizing of an absolute cut-out of the thoughts on blogs such as this one and others that must be among the popular on the internet for conservative types like us – doesn’t it all seem so concocted?
Of course, it could be true, but so does a professional legend. And there is this “network,” extending to Liberia apparently.
RC@241: “Don’t interpret this as going soft or pacifistic. On the contrary, I and people like me can be, in certain circumstances, very, very dangerous. I recognize this about myself. Like the wolverine in the forest: leave him alone when he waddles by, and you’re okay. But disturb him, and, well … things could get very ugly.”
WOLVERINES!!!!!1!
Okay, since 1984 when Red Dawn came out, it’s been a cliche. But think about it…the wolverine is the perfect animal to represent the generic American. He’ll roll with things that he has to. He’ll mind his own business. But he’s tough, and if you mess with him he’ll mess you up bad.
I too can be a very dangerous man, and I too recognize that about myself. Those who love me most dear and think they know me best would, I think, be surprised at the things I’ve thought through and am prepared to do should things go a certain way. I’ll never do something like the nut in Norway…but if I’m backed into a corner I can’t escape by the encroaching nanny/totalitarian state, I’ve already squirreled away the tools to deal with it. I may be history at that point if it ever comes, but some others will go with me if I have even half a chance.
And I don’t give a crap if government agents monitoring this site. If you guys are even half of what you portray yourselves to be, you know who I am, where I live and what color of underwear I have on. Come over, sit down, have a donut and ask me your questions. Just don’t bust in like you own the place, a la many incidents that have been reported over at Instapundit. I wouldn’t take kindly to that at all.
Sad. I remember a time when I considered the government my friend. It certainly isn’t today…though I’d still be polite. Too bad the government so often isn’t anymore.
IMO, the references to the Teutonic Knights may be, either or both, because the concept interests him, or he thinks the concept may interest sufficient others.
Consider: Heroic. Big men on big horses. Everybody’s a noble, no mention of who cleans out the stables. Brave. Tradition. Belonging. Powerful. Clothing meant to exaggerate one’s potency and power. Ancient great deeds. Into exotic lands.
First Harry Potter reference in this thread: Potter, living a lonely, unloved, unglamorous life, is rescued by people of power, taken off to Hogwarts, through idyllic English countryside, to an astonishing castle, turrets upon turrets, where the furnishings are lavish and rich and the food excellent (not necessarily characteristic of an English boarding school), and lives a life of adventure. Meantime, just…over…there is the land of tne Muggles WHO DO NOT KNOW. Potter and his friends know of Muggles, but the Muggles are oblivious. It’s just…over…there. Through a pillar in the train station, into a pub on a Muggle street no Muggle notices. There, Potter BELONGS.
What kid wouldn’t identify with and absolutely love the whole premise? Rowling was a genius to lasso all this up and start with it.
Seems to have worked.
Ditto some kids’ (including kids in their thirties and forties) fascination with the Teutonic Knights, the Templars, various made-up ancient organizations. Doesn’t take much imagination to think of people whose lives are such that Teutonic Khightsish ravings are like water in a thirsty land.
From all of which, it may be nothing but some kind of made-up fantasy to comfort some part of himself while he went around doing what he was going to do, looking more important than it really is.
There really were Teutonic Knights. They really did stuff in the Olden Time. The connection? Possibly only sad fantasizing.
What IS this? –is it left-wing greenie wiccan, or is it from the other end, whatever end that is, the opposing force against the left-wing greens. Has credits at the end –South Carolina, not Valhalla: The Pagan Norse
hmmm we would say that this guy “a pété les plombs” !He is a “barje” (a banana) from the beginning, like some said above, he would perfectly fit into a SS corpse, these were some kind of fanatics for cleansing humanity from “unuseful” persons, of from persons designed as responsible of spoiling their “order”.
Like some other said, his action = zero, at the political level, for he wasn’t motivated for transforming the norwegian society, but for eliminating some people, if he was seriously motivated, he should have started to make politics like Geert Wilders, but he hadn’t the patience, as he wanted to get his fame moment. It looks like he wanted some reconnaissance from a family, his fashist net connections, and may-be the first one, from his father, that had left him when he divorced his mother when he was 13th, that also lives in France. Sure now, his father can’t ignore him anymore ! But now, that this man has killed without emotion, he is like a wild bast, he’ll do that again at the opportunity, so me think, that the best service that the Norwegian society would do to humanity, is to eliminate such enraged beast, thus death penalty would be a sanitarian action for conscience peace of all of us !
wild beast
Subotai@250: “If they start given preferential promotions to Gays and Lesbians, there is only one way to do it. …. Convene an Oral Testing Board.
[ducking for cover]”
No. Ducking for cover will not save you for THAT one. I’m afraid we’re going to have to kill you now.
Blert #231
Bennett was using the term “Confessional nation” to suggest that America define itself b y our ideology, rather than race, ethnicity, language or culture. While Bennett and I share belief in the same Christian, conservative, free market ideals, I am leery of using those beliefs to define who is an American, in contrast to other European peoples who define “the Nation” by language. As we have discussed repeatedly in other threads, America seems to be approaching a point where we all divide ourselves into ideological camps. The Left has already read most of us Conservatives out of America, or even the human race, and we are approaching a point of reciprocation.
Charles #232,
I agree that Newt put it a bit better – as Newt usually does. But I still worry about a Nation-state which defines its legitimate citizens on the basis of ideological belief rather than birth, language or culture. The Soviet Union was a covenantal society of sorts – if you were a Marxist worker you were a valued citizen, if not you were envited to emigrate to the Gulag.
there’s a interesting article on Slate France, the author is American, then probably that the english version of his article is available
“Les communautés allemandes qui ont soutenu les nazis sous Hitler persécutaient déjà les juifs au Moyen-âge. La culture de la haine et du racisme franchit les siècles et les générations.”
http://www.slate.fr/story/39289/juifs-hitler-haine-histoire-persistance
Globally it says that the Germans who slaughtered the Jews were of the same cultural and genetical background as those who made pogroms in Middleages.
So one can’t evacuate “hate” and “taboo” as long as one didn’t get crossed roots !
Roughcoat #241
You just described every one of my friends … and me, save that I’m within a couple months of 65.
250/Subotai Bahadur
re: “I don’t think that any probative evidence, pro or con, has been publicly offered on that subject.”
I’m not aware of any either. However, there were several responses that immediately occurred to me, all of which would have substantially lowered the level of discourse here, so I’ll just say that I should have qualified my comment with “he appears at this point to have conveniently omitted…”
(all of the below is from JR Nyquist’s current column –read the rest at the link)
Quite naturally, people like the idea of government solving their problems. After all, it promises to make life easier for them. What people have refused to realize is the way in which this process gradually undermines national productivity and solvency.
It seems that the multiplication of wants applies on a collective level, and it applies to the state. The state has access to a seemingly unlimited supply of cash. Yet there is a limit. Even history’s richest nation cannot have everything it wants. A kind of revolution is therefore pending; that is to say, a passage from one national reality to another. If the government partially defaults next month the situation will worsen. The dollar will suffer and the government’s means will further shrink. In this situation, the price of gold will go even higher.
The danger for the country, and the financial system as a whole, is found in what happens next. How does the country adjust to new financial realities? Will violent passions be aroused? The English Civil War and the French Revolution both grew out of disputes over government finance. In both instances the parliament overthrew the National Executive. In both instances the respective countries suffered from internal warfare, with hundreds of thousands of casualties.
It is too early, of course, to predict civil war. In this context, we should remember the words of Gustave Le Bon. “The social idea of the Anglo-Saxons is very clearly defined,” he wrote. “whether under the English monarchy or the republic of the United States. It consists in reducing the functions of the State to a minimum, and increasing the functions of the individual to a maximum….”
Obviously, America is no longer an Anglo-Saxon country, though we can see the old Anglo-Saxon tendency attempting to re-emerge. This re-emergence is either a genuine awakening of an old spirit, or its last gasp.
Roughcoat@241: I want to restore grace to my life.
I have long thought that there is a strong environmental component to achieving a state of grace. Having lived in several different climes, I can say from experience that I thrive in the desert (It’s a dry heat) and on the coast (the hypnotic rhythm of the ocean tides acts like a sedative, which is always one way to go.) Other environments leave me with the distinct impression of being out of place – and, all too often, out of time.
I do not think we are facing the “end times” but the non-elite demographics are in for a lengthy and painful period of adjustment. Whether we take it to the streets in rage, or not, remains to be seen. I fully expect grace will be in short supply before we move along into the next chapter of history.
Whether one believes in a divine provocateur or simply righteous bad luck, either way, there it is. It helps to have a good dog. I have found.
From the Jawa Report:
“It has emerged that the man at the centre of the attack is also a member of a Swedish Nazi forum which encourages attacks on government buildings.
The revelations were revealed by Swedish newspaper Expo who claim Anders Breivik is part of ‘Nordisk’ which has 22,000 members and focuses on political terrorism.”
http://www.romea.cz/english/index.php?id=detail&detail=2007_2634
202. Alexis
Okay, Cowboy, if Mr. Breivik isn’t anti-American, how do you explain the following references from “2083”?
—–
I’m in a hard position because I’m not really very interested in defending Breivik. Yet I do think, and stand by, the assertion that his motivation is not anti-American. The man is to be utterly condemned for his crimes. Utterly.
Yes, he has said unkind things about the activities of the American government, and he does consider President Obama to be a cultural Marxist. If that is sufficient to gain the anti-American label then I fear one would be strained to find someone who could not be termed anti-American, even among the ranks of America’s fiercist patriots.
Breivik lays out his bogeymen and builds his case against them with much effort. His principle enemy are what he terms Cultural Marxists. He is more wroth at them than Muslims, despite his easy portrayal as an Islamaphobe racist. In fact, if you read his manifesto closely, he does even entertain the notion of allying with Muslims for his greater cause of defeating Cultural Marxist. Yes, he does.
He traces the heart of Cultural Marxism to the infamous Frankfurt School of intellectals, who are almost completely European to the man. This preoccupation takes up the first section of his manifesto. The second section is an exploration of Islam and a historical account of Europe’s encounter with Islam. The third section, having sufficiently built up his case in his mind, is a declaration of war. Don’t you see that in this narrative America is nowhere to be found? His cause is Eurocentric. His frustrations with America arise only when America’s leaders begin to resemble European ones.
Later, in field-guide mode, he is at pains to teach his ideas regarding targeting and political operations. State by state political parties are broken down even unto micro-level party groups in Europe and each are rated, then individuals are classified into category A, B, C or D target groups. His focus is entirely European, no American party or American leaders are analyzed as targets. A ton of history flows through his tome, and a great deal of analysis of contemporary events. Almost all of it centers on European affairs. America, simply put, is not on his mind or in his cross-hairs.
In the end Breivik advances his vision of the triumphal Europe in 2083. It is one in league with what we do call the Anglosphere. His ideal Europe is a powerful partner of a trade block with the United States, Canada and Australia. They stand together as the locus of the proud tradition of Western Civilization. They are Christendom. They are what he, as a Justiciar Knight, is out to preserve and advance.
He does not look at America as an enemy, but as a brother state suffering from a similar malady.
That’s my take on the madman’s stance. Could be wrong. Don’t think it is.
264/buddy larsen
Obviously, America is no longer an Anglo-Saxon country, though we can see the old Anglo-Saxon tendency attempting to re-emerge. This re-emergence is either a genuine
awakening of an old spirit, … or its last gasp.
And it’s that last possibility that is, to me, more chilling than any atrocities we may be forced to endure in the times to come. We can survive and overcome events, but not the loss of our essential soul as a people.
2083? he’s like a Waco prophet !
in his idealised world, there’s no mediterranean club (no latin), how many people he wanted to eugenised ?
Marie Claude: I just wanted to tell you that I immensely enjoy your contributions here, and the fact that you obviously recognize the quality and importance of this forum. Plus you defend your heritage, nation and continent against all comers in an environment that would quickly wear down many in your shoes.
Bravo.
MC/269, search “Plan Ost” –may or may not be on the net somewhere. I don’t know but have heard said that this nazi plan for the future after toppling Churchill and Stalin intended to depopulate a very large area of the eurasian landmass.
Depopulation –radical depopulation –seems to be a priority of the occult wing of the New World Order. Many instances of it, but search [ georgia guidestones ] for a creepy modern encounter.
tharkun/268, yes i know what yoiu mean. as a fellow texan you probably grew up reading tales of texian whose descendants you know or are one yourself (my aunt Lala married into the Austins) being ridden down by Santy Anny’s lancers –and now, woops, we can see it happening again. Well, if we run out of ammo anyway. But boy did we screw up, letting DC be DC so long a time. Whatever in the world were we thinking?
Unsk@266: “The revelations were revealed by Swedish newspaper Expo who claim Anders Breivik is part of ‘Nordisk’ which has 22,000 members and focuses on political terrorism.””
Holy shit. 22,000. Isn’t that about the combined population of Norway and Sweden?
In the Great Soviet People’s Republic bold tag closes you.
Buddy@272: “But boy did we screw up, letting DC be DC so long a time. Whatever in the world were we thinking?”
That’s the perfect epitaph, should and when one be needed, for this once-great country.
But you know…my optimism for the American dream still is there. This country will end one day, and maybe in my lifetime, but what it represents will live on WAY longer than the depraved rantings of one Karl Marx. Or even Richard Marx.
There will always be those of us who take all this seriously and who know what’s important. THAT will be our salvation. I hope.
I will admit that it gave me sharp pause: someone types out his concerns of creeping Islamization of Europe, which I share in substantial part, and then goes and murders nearly a hundred young campers. I now know the disquiet progressives must have felt from time to time these past ten years, hearing jihadists repeat their own denunciations of the First World, while waving severed Western heads.
It is okay to shout. NEVER use bold tags.
Another thing is to use underscores. That’s _really_ good.
Or asteriks. Astericks are *not* as good as Asterix, but they’ll do.
These strategies also save *_TIME_*!
Don’t be a fool, go OLD SCHOOL!
While I entirely reject ABBs acts — I can understand his frustrations.
He lives in a nation that has, for all practical purposes, state controlled media — by way of finance/ subsidy and hence oversight.
Norway has no First Amendment.
Norway has essentially no Second Amendment.
YIIKES.
THAT’S the problem.
Next, they’re importing perpetual dependents. There is absolutely NO prospect of any muslim making his way in ultra-high taxation Norway. ( Norway has an IQ norm 103ish, muslims norm to 83 ish, the law of large numbers kicks in: it can’t ever work. )
Next, muslims can’t abide Western norms — like working on Friday.
Europe and America are set up for Christians and Jews — Sunday and Sabbath. Three day weekends are too much.
Modern society can’t work around praying 5 times a day; goat herders, yes.
Muslims — in bulk — do NOT EVER assimilate. It’s entirely against their rule set.
Europe needs to stop handing out the honey.
America needs to stop handing out the honey.
When that happens, amazing things are possible.
129,130. Storm-Rider:
Wow, Dude. Sounds like Victor got you moving in precisely the direction he intended.
amazing things are possible
–blert @ 278
135. Cowboy
Imagine 50,000 motivated and righteous John Mohammeds and Lee Malvos’ descending on the United States at one time. It just might create a great deal of consternation.
but not to worry – we’ll get that southern border thingy worked out be 2020…at the latest.
I’m wondering what my Civil Defense MOS wqill look like. Ooops, forgot; we don’t have CD anymore. Just State Police outfits that have undergone serious payroll slashes and layoffs.
Wonder if that sounds apocolyptic enough for some.
Blert
We have not such a experience of evil muslims, we shared the same patry for nearly 2 centuries, and muslims have been our faithful soldiers in our army in both WW, and were patrolling Sahara, and Syria under our mendate with this unforgettable Meharis regiment. Today quite a few of our muslim immigrants are fighting the Taliban with our troops in Afghanistan, and some are on duty on our carrier for the Libyan campain !
Though it doesn’t mean that some are in our country for helping us, but they do not represent more than 10% of the Maghrebin population
……………
230. Annoy Mouse
Your post bears repeating, as his own writings show he is not “conservative” at all, but just another species of neo-nazi socialist.
He sounds like a Nazi influenced by growing up in a more PC culture – he doesn’t hate gays or Jews, just the ones who are “nation-wrecking multiculturalist traitors”, which is 75% of them. So he only wants to kill of 75% instead of 100%, and only wants to implement 60% of Hitler’s goals, not 100%. Wow, improvement.
The Europeans will still call him “conservative” because over there anything to the right of Marxism is “conservative”.
Hate to go all psychosexual on you (especially being a lowly carpenter) but maybe the shooter was pushed over the edge by Muslim rapists repeatedly raping Scandinavian women and paying little penalty for it. Perhaps he himself wasn’t getting much. Rumor has it his idol Herr Schicklgruber was sexually challenged
(Eva Braun took that knowledge to Hell with her).
t/285; somewhere there’s a report on the allied shrinks’ postwar debriefing of the house staff at one of the hitler redoubts –probably that Bavarian Alpine castle where the couple was together quite a bit –that the conjugal bedsheets yielded little evidence of any activity. nosy maids –they WOULD have been debriefed, so the story is probably true.
trangbang
Adolf suffered from an undescended testicle — something that is not THAT rare.
His father rejected him for it — and beat him to a pulp: broken bones, ribs, knocked out — the works.
It killed his soul.
It’s a defining element for him — and THE reason that he never wanted any children.
He hated himself — and then everyone else.
287. blert
My understanding is that there was a huge homosexual contingent in the upper heirarchy of the Nazi establishment.
http://modernhistoryproject.org/mhp?Article=PinkSwastika
247. Lorraine McKinnon
Yes, Lorraine, it very well could be that simple, but we each write our own personal experiences into the tapestry.
See Buddy at 229 for the truth in keepin’ on keepin’ on.
See Buddy at 245 for insight.
Each has had different experiences in what we believe in: our marriages, raising children, career success, the continuation virtue, a true melting pot…and when we all get to a certain age where it becomes clear that there is nothing to be done to improve our personal records, we have to recline to the fact that well, we did our best.
Some of us, embracing a “mission” (grounded in logic and history, not utopian fantasy) to attain the “oughts” in the world, used our own vision to carve out or remake the world “for our children.” Others worked surreptitiously with our children behind the scenes in the school and the media, to carve out their own automatons completely opposed to the war we were fighting. Alone the way, it appears that those interlopers took the younger generation away from those of us who worked to make the world a sane and better place that would, yes, require toil to sustain. Instead, the interlopers offered an idyllic utopia and we are seeing the results of their choice today.
The outcome? Most of our kids took the milk instead of the meat; the Big Mac instead of the vegetables. Soon they too will have a very uncomfortable epiphany. Will they come back to the lessons their parents taught, but they rejected? Will they become the lost sheep or the prodigal? Their souls lay in the balance.
When you do your best and fail, the good sportsman in us comforts us that “it’s not whether you win or lose, it is how you play the game.” If you did your best, you ought to give that to yourself. But when you see everything you worked for – sometimes in many countries around the world – molder and rot, well, it’s just real hard to recline on “good intentions” and idealistic platitudes.
But that’s precisely when a “higher standard” can save your sanity AND your life.
Where did Breivik get the money? Selling vegetables isn’t all that profitable.
Who was his banker?
What if he had muslem friends? What makes you think he didn’t?
His plans didn’t come up overnight.
Somebody footed the bill. What makes you think the police in Oslo are sharp enough to make any statement at all … that you would judge them to be competent people?
They bow and scrape to their king and queen. And, that’s about it.