Reuters reports that some NATO countries participating in the Libya operation have punched themselves out, although Khadaffy is still standing. “New U.S. Defense Secretary Leon Panetta said on Monday that some NATO allies operating in Libya could see their forces ‘exhausted’ within 90 days.” European forces are wearing out from the beating they are delivering to the Libyan dictator.
“The problem right now, frankly, in Libya is that … within the next 90 days a lot of these other countries could be exhausted in terms of their capabilities, and so the United States, you know, is going to be looked at to help fill the gap,” Panetta said, speaking to troops in Baghdad.
AFP added that the Italians are pulling out their carrier and Norway is pulling out its planes. The Italians have called for a “political solution” in Libya. France is reported to be secretly negotiating with Khadaffy for a settlement, according to Saif Khadaffy, who says talks have been ongoing between a Libyan envoy and the French President. The reality is that Europe’s combat power will soon have to be cut back in Libya unless the US takes up the slack.
Among the European countries involved in Libya, Norway has announced it will withdraw its six F-16 fighters on August 1, and Italy is pulling out its Garibaldi aircraft carrier, for a saving of 80 million euros.
Panetta said that Nato’s European members must “make efforts to develop their defence capability; they’re gonna have to invest in that kind of partnership as well.
“We can’t be the ones that carry the financial burden in all of these situations,” Panetta said.
Washington bears 75 per cent of Nato’s defence budget. Of the 28 Nato countries, only the United States, France, Britain, Greece and Albania meet the Nato threshold of two percent of GDP spent on defence.
The problem facing President Obama is that, by his own account, there isn’t even a war on in Libya, or nothing that amounts to one. It will be hard to make the case that he needs to come to the assistance of allies in military need, if that need has by defined into nonexistence by none other than himself.
If France and Italy have negotiate a settlement that leaves Khadaffy in power they will have provided a textbook example of international rope-a-dope, one convincingly demonstrates the limitations of feeble muscles allied to soft-power. It will be the perfect companion to the emerging debacle to financially save Greece. Europe has punched itself out fighting a non-war against a 5th rate country in North Africa. Far from covering themselves in glory enhancing the prestige of the old continent they will have succeeded in making themselves nothing but a laughing stock. The only problem is that there will probably be serious consequences.
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I wonder how much of the “defense” spending in a country like, say, France, is really thinly disguised social spending (pensions and benefits) or indirect subsidies for favored industries (Airbus, etc.). Certainly there isn’t a whole lot making it to the actual battlefield.
The Libya adventure serves as a metaphor for the entire Leftist delusion.
Someone here pointed out that the Nato assault was prompted by Ghaddafi’s threat to stop accepting payment for his Sweet Light Crude in U.S. Dollars, which would be a serious pinprick advancing on the U.S. Fiat Currency Bubble. (Wow! Watch me juggle mis-matched similes…)
So the EU and the USA puff up their blouses and tumble into their brightly painted clown vehicles, zip all over the map bumping into each other, become distracted with slapping each other silly over mimed insults, toss a few brickbats at the Colonel, and then stand picking there big red noses when he won’t go along with the charade. Looks like they’re all about to climb back into their Shriner-parade rejectmobiles (no slight to Shriners intended!) and pedal back home for cookies and Kool-aid, sniffing and pouting.
Except they were actually killing folks dead with their little tantrum.
Funny, I’ve heard seven thousand liberals lecture me over the decades that we have NO RIGHT to force the authentically oppressed third world indegenes sell us their natural-born resources at prices dictated by mean old us ever. So WTF?
This seems like the most outrageous example EVER of the hypocrites in Liberal fall colors doing EXACTLY what they shrieked GWB was up to in Baghdad. But I’m not aware that we extracted so much as a cubic millilitre of petroleum from Iraq without they got paid standard rates.
Anyone know otherwise?
Emotionally exhausted and morally bankrupt.
scuse my sloppiness: “…picking THEIR big red noses…”
“The reality is that Europe’s combat power will soon have to be cut back in Libya unless the US takes up the slack.”
I am going to suggest an edit to this sentence.
The reality is that Europe’s combat power will soon have to be cut back in Libya whether the US takes up the slack or not.
If Britain, France, and Italy combined do not have the military clout to topple the Duck of Death then why do we need them as allies? It is just more border to defend.
It is a sorry and pathetic sight, but compared to our economic problems inconsequential. The US needs to pull back. We are over-extended politically and militarily and we need to rethink our military doctrine. For starters even the hawks need to take a look at a map and they would quickly realize we are in motti. We are basically dependent on hostile powers for supply routes and if the Pakis block the Khyber Pass on us we will be totally dependent on an equally tenuous aerial supply route.
We are broke, our allies are impotent and a drain on our own resources, our civilian leadership sucks, and our enemies smell blood. It is time to pull back and regroup before the bad guys can get it together to really take the initiative.
But, but weren’t we told the Daffy man was on the ropes……
So where does this leave our Savior of a President? How does he save this situation? How can we continue to fight this kinetic action when France and Italy are cutting deals to end it? Or better yet, why should we continue to risk American lives? For what?
The problem isn’t power or even money. Europe is still objectively far more powerful that Libya in its weakened state. Even Italy has a much greater military potential than Libya, bankrupt though she may be. What the current cascade of crises demonstrates, however, is how paralyzed the whole system is. It can move only comparative inches to each side. There is no way it can use even 1% of its potential in anything.
The principal advantage Khadaffy has over NATO is freedom of decision. He can do stuff: risk his life, suffer deaths within his inner circle, decide to change his foreign policy depending on his calculations. He can do whatever he needs to do. The West cannot.
Any kind of real movement — whether it be military action, labor market reform, budget reduction or even cracking down on crime — in Western societies is now nearly impossible. Whole societies have been paralyzed by the need to service the status quo. Keeping things going, with only minor excursions, is now the prime directive of Western politics. Everyone spies on everyone else to enforce political correctness. Britain today is mesmerized by — News of the World! But it doesn’t give a hoot about Julian Assange. It has almost forgotten it is fighting Khadaffy and losing.
Instead it is obsessed with ludicrously small issues. The political system worries endlessly about soap opera problems, sexual politics, racial quotas, “climate change” etc. This littleness promotes people like Herman Von Rompuy or Julia Gillard or Barack Obama — complete ciphers — to positions of power for no other reason than that they check all the boxes. A terrible diminuation of mind, an unbelievable poverty of thinking, has descended on the Western world.
who to trust?
NATO may be preparing ground operation in Libya
http://en.rian.ru/world/20110701/164951748.html
US and NATO prepare final assault on Qaddafi. He threatens terror
http://www.debka.com/article/21082/
“R2P” is not just a new international imperitive; it’s a way of life for some. They are “R2Ping” everything in their worlds, from continuing unsustainable welfare programs to international assertions of power over sovereign states’ internal affairs (latest e.g., Texas).
This is not a screwup; this is business as usual in certain quarters.
And if the Yerps were really smart they would arrange a “mouse that roared” solution, trick Kaddafy ino invading Greece, and then it would all be his problem.
Qaddafi Seeks Exit Guarantees: Russian Envoy
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-07-05/qaddafi-seeks-security-guarantees-to-relinquish-rule-russian-envoy-says.html
You may have noticed how little we now hear of “R2P”. Like nuclear winter, global cooling, climate refugees, global warming, overpopulation the term is being quietly retired until it is time to rehabilitate it once again in the service of some absurdity.
It has made an embarrassment of itself for now. It will not venture out again until it has been thoroughly cleaned, made-up and renamed. But it will be back. The Left has a warehouseful of BS that it seems to have no difficulty flogging on the credulous or those of limited intelligence. Just the other day some people on the radio were saying they didn’t mind becoming poor paying Julia Gillard’s “carbon tax” as long as they “saved the planet”. You don’t know whether to laugh or to cry. There’s a sucker born every minute and Karl Marx, not PT Barnum is the master of the show.
And these charlatans are even now squirming their way into “international institutions” and “international courts” to sit in judgment of everybody, ready at the drop of the hat to invoke “human rights” or “animal rights” or the “duty to die” in the service of one or the other of their scams. Because that’s what it’s all about: scams, like the “education” offered by the Atlanta Public School system. It’s all about the money they’re going to make from the dopes, from the people who trusted them. What is really discouraging is that the marks keep coming; and the scamsters keep raking in the dough.
If the whole damned system goes down, take comfort in this: that somewhere, someplace there’s an international bureaucrat who’s suddenly discovered that he’s run out of Other People’s Money.
Let’s you and him fight, say the Europeans, exhausted by a low grade, no casualties kinetic slugfest against a guy with no air force or navy and whose mobile armored force consists of a pair of beat-up Toyota pickups.
Of course we’ve heard this all before
It happens every little war
The Euros start and cannot reach the end
From Libya to Kosovo
They start at ease and then go slow
While counting every mortar round they spend
Exhausted now, in deep despair
They’ve reached that blackest point to where
They cry their airplane can’t take any more
And both their pilots called in sick
And so they want that backwoods hick
The US to come in and win the war
And yes I know we are already flying most if not all of the air strikes, though Obama says it is not a war at all and therefore doesn’t need anybody’s permission to do whatever he wants to a country that up until now was counted as a friend, or at least more friendly than most Arab cessholes.
W/12—yes, run out of OPM. Now he doesn’t have it but somebody does, the smooth operator who saw through the whole thing right from the start. Better: he’s run out but he kept plenty for himself (see Fannie and Freddie, for example).
It’s like the oft-quoted poker game: you’re the chump.
[shaking head] Poor Leon. First he had to deal with slick Willie’s sliding zipper and now with Oblahblah’s sliding reelection chances. He needs to suddenly yearn for the comfort of his old retirement home
and stop pandering to politics. He’s heading for the title of Worst.Defense.Secretary.Ever.
if the whole damned system goes down, take comfort in this: that somewhere, someplace there’s an international bureaucrat who’s suddenly discovered that he’s run out of Other People’s Money.
Sorry Wretchard–one of the key premises of the Western Welfare States is the notion that there will always be somebody with a stash that you can steal from. The idea that such people might go extinct is unthinkable. That would be the end of the world as they know it, and they would not feel fine.
When the money runs out their little brains will and cannot fathom that. Their conclusion will be that nasty, greedy people have managed to hide the remainder of the stash from them, so its time to start cracking the skulls of the greedy until they reveal where the stash really is.
Things will start to get really ugly pretty soon, especially in Europe. The chaos will start there first, by my predictions, and it will be very, very ugly.
The Hideous Strength holds all this Earth in its fist to squeeze as it wishes.
C.S. Lewis, 1946
The only way the countries of Europe will be strong again is if the United States leaves. US presence there ensures the Europeans have to spend only pennies on defense and can continue attempting to integrate into some kind of EU state.
Machiavelli knew this centuries ago, and touched on it in The Art of War(1521) in which he wrote a passage on this subject. To understand the passage, however, one must first understand what Machiavelli calls “virtu”. According to Dr. Neal Wood- Professor of Political Science at York University in Toronto, it is a difficult concept to translate. Dr. Wood describes “virtu”:
“Virtu is a necessary quality of of effective military and political leadership, and it is essential to the survival and well-being of a people in this alien and hostile world…..
“Virtu in the special sense is basically a military quality. There is no synonym for this use of virtu. Machiavelli employs it to characterize masculine and aggressive conduct that is exhibited in a dangerous and uncertain situation of tension, stess, and conflict. The concept entails the idea of tremendous force of will and inner strength that will enable one to overcome the most recalcitrant opposition and to endure the most perilous adversity. Among the attributes included in virtu are boldness, bravery, resolution, and decisiveness.”
Therefore, I now give you the relevant passage from Machiavelli:
“Cosimo: I should be very happy to learn if you have ever considered how it comes to pass that we are so degenerate, and that not only these exercises, but all manner of military discipline, have now fallen into such neglect and disuse among us.
Fabrizio: I shall give you my opinion on the matter very freely sir. You know, then, that there have been many renowned warriors in Europe- but few in Africa, and fewer still in Asia; the reason for this is that the last two mentioned parts of the world have had but one or two monarchies and only a few republics in them,. and that Europe, on the contrary, has had several kingdoms, but more republics in it. Now men become excellent and show their virtu according to how they are employed and encouraged by their sovereigns, whether these happen to be kings, princes, or heads of republics; so where there are many states, there will be many great men; but where there are few states, there will not be many great men. In Asia, there were Ninus, Cyrus, Artaxerxes, Mithridates, and a few others like them; in Africa (without mentioning the ancient Egyptians), we read of Masinissa, Jugurtha, and some Carthaginian commanders of eminent note. The number of these men, however, is very small in comparison with those Europe has produced; for in this part of the world, there have indeed been numbers of excellent men whom we know about, and doubtless many more whose memories are now extinguished by the malevolence of time; because every state is obliged to cherish and encourage men of virtu, either out of necesity or for other reasons- where there are more states, there must of course be more men of virtu.
Asia, on the contrary, has not produced many men of virtu because, to a great extent, that part of the globe is subject to one monarchy alone- to so great an extent that most parts of it languish in indolence and cannot form any considerable number of men for great and glorious enterprises. The same may be said of Africa, although there have indeed been more commanders of virtu in that region than in Asia, thanks to the republic of Carthage. There will always be a greater number of excellent men in republics than in monarchies because virtu is generally honored in the former, but feared in the latter; hence, it comes to pass that men of virtu are and encouraged in one, but discountenanced and suppressed in the other.
If we consider Europe next, we shall find that it was always full of principalities, kingdoms, and republics which lived in perpetual jealousy of each other and were obliged to maintain good discipline in their armies and to honor and encourage military merit. In Greece, besides the Macedonian monarchy, there were several republics, and every one produced many excellent men. In Italy there were the Romans, the Samnites, the Etruscans, and the Cisalpine Gauls. France, Germany, and Spain abounded with republics and principalities; and if we do not rread of as many excellent men in any of them as among the Romans, that results from the partiality of historians, who generally follow the stream of fortuna, and content themselves with praising the conqueror. It is only reasonable to suppose, however, that there were a great many illustrious men among the Samnites and Etruscans since they defended themselves against the Romans for 150 years. The same may be supposed of France and Spain; but the virtu which most historians fail to celebrate in particular men, they are forward enough to praise in whole nations, when they tell us with what bravery and resolution these nations exerted themselves in defense of their liberties.
Since it is obvious, then, that where there are many states there will always be many men of virtu, it is certain that when the number of those states is diminished, the number of such men will likewise decrease by degrees- just as the effect must cease when the cause is taken away. Thus, when the Roman Empire had swallowed up all the kingdoms and republics in Europe and Africa, and most of those in Asia, virtu met with no countenance anywhere but in Rome; so that men of virtu began to grow more scarce in Europe, as well as in Asia, until at last there were hardly any to be found. Just as all virtu was extinguished, except among the Romans, so when they became corrupt, the whole world was similarly corrupted, and the Scythians poured by swarms into an Empire that, having extinguished the virtu of most other nations, was not able to preserve its own.”
(I think Machiavelli was a bit too dismissive of the “virtu” of the empires of Asia. However, I also thought that he may also be onto something.)
Soft power institutions have no problem issuing warrants of arrest, binding the US Justice system, recommending the arrest of former members of the Bush administration, etc when they can’t even serve a process on Khadaffy. They are oblivious to irony, and with unshakable confidence in their moral superiority demand obeisance. It’s as if the internationalists could step up to any knuckle dragging American and replay that scene in Pirates of Penzance:
And so one supposes, the internationalists think all they have to do is display the crest of the UN tribunal and the savage colonials will fall abjectly to their knees, tugging at their forelock. Alas, it works with all too many who wish to demonstrate that they are not rubes and that they love their queen. But with Khadaffy and Assad it works not at all. So the solution is to send the colonial Pirate Kings after them.
Life Of Brian – Ending
Always look on the bright side of life
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1loyjm4SOa0
gaddifi will leave for Malta and live with Suha Arafat whom he stills gives money to..
whiskey hits some similiar themes
http://whiskeys-place.blogspot.com/2011/07/sleazy-i-banks-and-end-of-nationalism.html
still more dangerous to long term american interests is corporate patent reform
http://whiskeys-place.blogspot.com/2011/07/sleazy-i-banks-and-end-of-nationalism.html
Oh, well. Since the use of manned assets has decreased in Afghanistan with the increased use of drones, I suspect there are a lot of USN and USAF pilots whose training quals are expired/about to expire. This will give them a chance to update those.
My friend David High, Marine Iraq combat field-grade infantry officer with three years there and later, civilian service in sub-Sahara Africa, told me in the beginning that Obama got rolled by the Europeans.
“It’s their mess,” David said. “This is an after-affect of French and Italian colonialism. The Libya war is neo-colonialism by the Europeans. And the United States is like fraternity pledges that the brothers make mop up the frat house floor on Sunday morning after an all-night kegger that they didn’t attend.”
So is there a Plan B? Ha! There was never even a Plan A!
Soft power institutions have no problem issuing warrants of arrest, binding the US Justice system, recommending the arrest of former members of the Bush administration, etc when they can’t even serve a process on Khadaffy. They are oblivious to irony, and with unshakable confidence in their moral superiority demand obeisance.
Such is the rot that comes from security. When the dire wolves are only a memory it is easy to say that they can be placated by offerings of dog biscuits should they come again. In times of actual conflict idiots and their theories are eaten by the iron jaws of reality.
My father served in the US army for twenty years. He fought in WWII and Korea. His observation was that in peace time political idiots rose to positions of leadership in the military. It took wars to demonstrate their incompetence and let real leaders take their place. In times of peace the politician soldiers would rise to power, and this was a very, very bad thing.
And so it is now on the political scene. So long as everything was on autopilot we could afford to have defectives at the wheel based upon how pretty the defectives looked and sang. But now there is a great big mountain in the path of the plane and our little pretty meat-puppet pilot has not the slightest clue as to how to steer the plane, let alone accurately answering the question of how many states there are in the US.
I am ornery enough to wonder whether the purpose of the Libya adventure wasn’t precisely for this purpose — to deplete and weaken Europe.
W’s point about the brittleness of the West and its inability to make spontaneous decisions makes me see how much it resembles the former Soviet Union in that specific respect.
From Whiskey’s Place link above (C@21):
….
What should have remained a staid, sedate business serving the specialized needs of big metals consumers in the US and elsewhere, has been turned upside down by what amounts to a set of elites with no boundaries or national feelings. Even Gilded Age Robber Barons had some sense of propriety, a shared nationalism that moderated the urge to gouge every last penny out of the average person. Even Standard Oil’s John D. Rockefeller had limits:
In spite of the formation of the trust and its perceived immunity from all competition, by the 1880s Standard Oil had passed its peak of power over the world oil market. Rockefeller finally gave up his dream of controlling all the world’s oil refining, he admitted later, “We realized that public sentiment would be against us if we actually refined all the oil.”
….
Not all Robber Barons were created equal – or maybe they are.
” Law? Who cares about the law. Hain’t I got the power?” – Comment alleged to have been made by Cornelius Vanderbilt, when warned that he might be violating the law.
….
In 1883, when questioned by a reporter about the discontinuance of a fast mail train popular with the public, [William Henry Vanderbilt] declared: “The public be damned!… I don’t take any stock in this silly nonsense about working for anybody but our own.”{Interview, Chicago Daily News, October 9, 1882}
….
But it is a fascinating comparison – the modern financier vs the industrial Robber Baron.
From the Whiskey link:
Any nation can withstand some corruption and greed on the part of its elites. Those flaws are part of human nature, and can at best be only curbed, not eliminated. But in the end, it is not laws (nearly always evaded in one form or another) that curbs the greed, ambition, and power of the elites. It is, or at least has been since the late 1500s and the rise of the nation-state, nationalism that has curbed the worst excesses.
Nationalism. That’s more of a Bill Gates type Creative Capitalism solution than it is a rule of law solution, as I suggested earlier.
(Goldman Sachs – before getting into the mortgage biz – cut its fee for service teeth in the utilities industry where they finessed the ‘chop shop’ financial model (buy, slice-and-dice, and sell what’s left for fees.) Any number of public utilities are still recovering from the trauma of a GS swoop down. CRA? My butt. These boys carry their sophistication like professionals, which means that Barney and Maxine in Washington will never see them coming.)
Donald Sensing
“It’s their mess” uh, Libya wasn’t a french colony, but a italian’s, though occupied by the Brits, the French until its independance in 1951, though a few american bases remained in Libya until Kadhafi outed the lot !
Also, if the Americans hadn’t empeched UK and France to fight the Suez war, may-be be “communist” Nasser wouldn’t have become Kadhafi model, nor we would have heard of him, and you would still have bases in Libya !
18. Panday
‘The only way the countries of Europe will be strong again is if the United States leaves.’
I’d like to edit that to ‘The only way the countries of Europe will be strong again is if they put steroids in the tap water.’
If the taboos, fears, political correctness, endless regulations and utter loss of confidence and pride in our western civilization that we see today, were in play 60 years ago; then none of the achievements and advancements that have been made in that period would have happened. We would have done nothing. Technologically we would be in 1945, sliding back into the 1930′s.
Hopefully in the U.S. and Canada there are enough doers who are comfortable with themselves to get our countries back into action. We can fix N. America while Europe tries putting steroids in their beer.
At this moment aged ex-Soviet officers are sitting at home in their underwear at tables on which stand before them half filled vodka bottles. They are slapping their palms on the tables or raising a finger in the air to scream at their indifferent families, “I told you we could take them.”
So I hate to say this, but brother Alex Jones appears to be right again — that the French et al can’t finish off Gaddafi and are therefore going to push hard for a U.S. ground invasion, ala what all those guys purporting to be 1st Cav have been calling in telling brother Alex in Austin for the last few weeks. Their invasion date is supposedly October/November after Ramadan is over and the desert cools off, but still leaves tanks nice and highlighted on IR sets at night after they heat up in daytime.
“At this moment aged ex-Soviet officers are sitting at home in their underwear at tables on which stand before them half filled vodka bottles. They are slapping their palms on the tables or raising a finger in the air to scream at their indifferent families, “I told you we could take them.” Fortunately those guys cared more about their families back in Moskva staying intact and non-radiated then the prospect of driving their tanks across the Rhine.
Adolf destroyed Europe when he murdered its conscience and its Jewry.
Never again refers to European hegemony.
The loss of that much ultra-high IQ talent is a wound that can NEVER heal.
This shame is compounded by functioning under Nazism-lite.
To a stunning degree almost all of current European grand designs for integration, high speed rail and unification to the Urals comes straight from Hitler.
Defeat of his corpus was not a defeat of his memes.
Nazism = Nationalist Marxism — with a Vengeance!
——
It is irony on steroids that Hitler’s anti-Jewish crusade started with his rivalry with the Frankfurt Shul.
Naturally, they suffered not, and fled to incubate in America.
Loaded to the gills with Ashkenazi Jews — but to a man: apostates!
Even their informal name was a parody of Temple.
They are the reason every college in America seems overrun with Marxist apparats spewing Critical Theory.
By the time these clowns are done the modern indoctrinee feels that man has no inalienable rights given by God.
The State is God.
I give you the Wan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Any38uNUelM&feature=player_embeddedhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Any38uNUelM&feature=player_embedded
This is but a slice of the megalomania of the Wan.
The Libya adventure serves as a metaphor for the entire Leftist delusion.
AKA “Just DON’T win, baby!”….
(Unless you’re a socialist, anti-nationalist, anti-American, anti-Zionist, anti-capitalist globalist—in which case, rules are only for others.)
#29 “uh, Libya wasn’t a french colony, but a italian’s, though occupied by the Brits, the French until its independance in 1951, though a few american bases remained in Libya until Kadhafi outed the lot !”
Uh, yes but the very large country just to the west of Libya, Algeria, was a French colony. And after WWII the French briefly “attached” the Libyan province Fezzan to Algeria.
What the Suez has to do with it escapes me, except that it is a wonderful way of saying that it is all ultimately the Americans who are at fault!
blert @ 33 – Is that audio at the link an excerpt from his book or something contrived?
What were the objectives again, or were there ever any? I recall some “strong’ statements about “weeks”.
Make a deal with gaddaffy, any deal he wants, then when he’s in some square celebrating the deal hit him and his supporters with something very fast and large.
Blame it on the terrorist protestors.
My command of older history is obviously much weaker than that of many here, so I’ll leave parallels to and differences from that history for others more qualified than me to make.
In more recent history, though, I’m smacked in the face with the fact that as a supporter of GW Bush, I had to endure endless mocking of our effort in Iraq. “He never had a plan for after the invasion! He’s a dolt! How can you invade a country with no idea what to do afterwards? He’s the worst president in history!”
What, then, of Obama, who did not have a plan to win in the first place? Who assumed that Europe, no single country of which (or any combination as a team, for that matter) has won a war without US help (unless you count the Falklands, I guess) in decades, would simply steamroll the enemy while he “led from behind”?
Our president is a self-declared REMF with no plan to win. If he’s not going to do the heavy lifting and not even providing a plan for those who are, then what exactly is he doing? And why? The duck gave up his WMD programs. For that we more-or-less told him he was off the hook for most of the other stuff. A few short years later we participate in an invasion. The duck is a bastard, but I’d think we could forgive him for wondering “WTF?”
The Yurps would be far, far better off in their military adventures if they simply ignored the US militarily and assumed we wouldn’t be there until we get a CIC who ISN’T quite such a doofus.
Agoraphobic Plumber 39,
(unless you count the Falklands, I guess)
Maggie couldn’t have done it without Ronald Reagan’s help, including the intelligence and critical logistic support.
The thing that’s smacking western nations in the face is not that that it’s too expensive for them to fight, it’s that it’s too expensive for them to fight in the manner in which the media has seen the US fight. Carefully coordinated, scientificly precise bombardments with cutting edge technology, no friendly casualties… this is pricey stuff. If NATO was doing it Old School, and was willing to bombard Tripoli with conventional naval gunfire until Kaddaffi surrendered, France could bear the cost alone, and be done with it within a month or two. Of course there would be 50,000 Libyan casualties, and miles of smoking ruins.
It’s not that our defense budget gives us the ability to wage war, it’s that it gives us the ability to wage war without making such a mess.
“I told you we could take them.”
And they would have been wrong. Since about 1940, the army with control of the air over the battlefield has never lost a battle. The Soviets didn’t have the technology to disrupt NATO control of the airspace except for local, temporary situations. NATO airbases in England and Spain were outside the reach of any Soviet weapons other then ballistic missiles, which were to dangerous to use. On the other hand, Soviet logistics were naked to NATO airpower. Soviets understood that, which is why they developed a doctrine that tried to avoid logistics.
Soviet Armor was designed to carry 30-49 rounds of Main gun ammo. Two engagements max ( 30 rounds at 6 rounds per minute, which is the autoloader fire rate, is 5 minutes of sustained fire). Soviets would have maybe made it to the Rhine before they ran out of ammo. Soviets lived off the land for food, fuel, etc.
So once they ran out of ammo, they stopped. That means they would quickly strip the land bare of food and fuel. NATO trades land for time. Wait a week or two and start trading with the Soviets. A Balonga sandwich for an AK-47. An APC gets a canned ham. A T-72 gets the whole hog.
Just what the Duck of Death is doing today. The Rebels fear him trading land for time since they know that once NATO goes home, if the Duck is still in control of some land and an OIL well or 2, he will slaughter them and in 2 or 3 years control everything.
Meanwhile in 2 or 3 years, NATO will have new management and the Duck will be home free.
Allie allie in come free.
The real question in all of this is where the won found such stupid people to carry his spears? From top to bottom, his minions have walk in freezer grade IQ’s. Lots of credentials, little accomplishments.
“What the Suez has to do with it escapes me, except that it is a wonderful way of saying that it is all ultimately the Americans who are at fault!”
this was a response to the person that said that “it’s their mess” !
Yet it’s the Allies mess altogether !
Hmmm Fezzan was undder french control, and what does that mean in the occurence, that the troops who controlled algerian sahara were the same that controlled libyan desert !
Suez, was a war against nationalist Nasser, educated by the soviets, and promoting a pan arabism, like Kaddafi did, same formation, same mottos, same heros ! If Nasser hadn’t such a worshipping in “winning” this Suez affair, then not such a glory would have been tied to his personality, and, he wouldn’t have been able to found and subsidy FLN through his brotherhood fellahs !, nor Kadhafi would have got the same supports from the same sources
Tout est lié, it’s still the last fight that wasn’t finished then, that we are assisting to today
If the Mediterranean dance seems awkward it is because the dance partners are embarrased although not for the same reasons.
Obama has had a crush on Europe since he first laid eyes on her. She is everything he wants to be. She is the prom queen and he finally has his dance ticket.
The Euros were flattered at first but having a closer look know that he is is not boyfriend material. They will smile politely. They will use him when they need a ride somewhere and hope nobody sees, but that is all. They know what kind of life they want but have no intention of providing it for themselves.
It is more embarrasing for the spectators than the dancers. Obama doesnt know when he is being made a fool of. The Euros are getting a lift to the party where they will look for a more attractive ride home.
*
Did you write the book of love
And do you have faith in God above
If the Bible tells you so?
Now do you believe in rock and roll?
Can music save your mortal soul?
And can you teach me how to dance real slow?
Well, I know that you’re in love with him
’cause I saw you dancing in the gym
You both kicked off your shoes
Man, I dig those rhythm and blues
I was a lonely teenage broncin’ buck
With a pink carnation and a pickup truck
But I knew I was out of luck
The day the music died
Mr X
hmmm you would like that, but it’ ain’t going to happen within your scenario. Most likely, Kadhafi will out (depending on the guaranties he’ll get for not being tried to La Haye), leaving his son as a ruler, and the Rebels will have to attend the negociations table. Still troops on the ground will be need, just to empech slaughtering of the populations, and to insure that the new rules will work. These troops will be most likely muslims, Turks, and of the arab and of the african union, may-be Russians, and German peacekeepers too. While technicians, advizers, from the trio France, UK, US will reconstruct the place and its administration
stoicheion
Ref Sov armor. I believe their doctrine was to use a unit hard and when it was fought out, pass another, unscathed and fully loaded, through it. The sustainability of a US unit–company cook, armorer, maintenance training, etc.–seemed odd to them, or at least it seemed unnecessary for them.
Their stuff crapped out so frequently that even hitting the road was a dicey proposition. Adding combat to the mix would use up a unit rapidly. Even if they didn’t get hit much, manuvering combat-style stressed tracks and powertrains.
So two engagements would have been sufficient, or at least the best they could do and they dealt with it by having successive waves coming over the same axis.
This is Obama’s war, literally, as far as American participation goes. Obama made it so by his dismissal of Congress’s role. He owns it. Then again, Obama thinks he owns the country and acts accordingly.
MC #45: “Still troops on the ground will be need, just to empech slaughtering of the populations”
The EUnuchs and the Obaminoids don’t seem to be too worried about Assad slaughtering Syrians. Do they really care about what happens to the Libyan people?
I assume R2P got its start with the transnationalists being haunted by their abject cowardice in the Rwanda genocide. Not all transies are haunted, although Samantha Powers apparently is.
One thing that is forgotten about the Rwanda debacle is that Rwandans settled it themselves. The Tutsi-led rebels defeated the genocidal Hutu militias, and a huge portion of Rwanda’s Hutu population fled. Problem solved; ugly solution, and a new problem for the Congo/Zaire, but hey, one thing at a time. Supposedly, Rwanda is one of the better-maintained Sub-Saharan countries these days, and should be left alone. Evil may have made Rwanda Hell on Earth for many horrendous weeks, but Evil did not triumph there.
Kinuachdrach
then again what does mee for you the pro-Assad manifestants attacking french and american embassy?
Did Assad send a message there?
it’s planned, but some need to clear the libyan mess first
Don Rodrigo
I wouldn’t hold the actual regime of Rwanda as blank from slaughtering too, Kagame organised the former Rwanda president plane crash, and Tutsis slaughtered Hutus before and after the “event” too
So let’s say that the apparent equilibrium of today, there, suits our appreciation
what does mee —> mean
It is irony on steroids that Hitler’s anti-Jewish crusade started with his rivalry with the Frankfurt Shul.
Naturally, they suffered not, and fled to incubate in America.
The US brought the Frankfurt School back to Europe, where it never had that much influence until sponsored by the US provisional military government in Germany. Along with things they learned in America, from Freud and Franz Boas, their ideas became the basis of the German education system. Teachers were subjected to questionaires (‘fragebogen’) about everything from politics to their sex lives. Removing the German mental sickness (ie Christian bourgeois morality) from the youth was a major priority all bankrolled by Uncle Sam.
Not much has changed since then. Wikileaks showed how the US promotes multiculturalism in France. In recent weeks US ambassadors have stuck their noses into the domestic affairs of numerous European countries, such as Finland and Slovakia, coming down on the side of the left. The Bush Administration did the same in Hungary where it pulled out all the stops to help the ex-communists against the nationalist right. I was certainly not surprised by Hillary’s recent bragging about how the State Department got the disgusting Lady Gaga to play in Rome.
Mark Hackard:
While Clinton’s speech acknowledged U.S. promotion of gay rights in Africa and Latin America, State’s primary focus is Eurasia, not coincidentally the center of the Pentagon’s geostrategy. Eastern Europe and the former Soviet space have yet to be fully enlightened to current Western cultural standards, and so Orthodox nations like Serbia, Belarus and Russia are the target of U.S. information operations and well-funded human-rights NGOs. Along with subverting Moscow’s sphere of influence at this most intimate level (with adequate help from some Russian elites), Washington continues to assist the EU in the leveling of what was once Christendom. In every significant sense, from ethnic identity to religion and culture, European peoples have been marked for oblivion. Regardless of the contradiction to its homosexual agenda, U.S. policy also sponsors the growth of Muslim power on the Continent; both programs work toward the destruction of traditional Europe.
Gung-ho American patriots (and even Canadians of all emasculated people) like ridiculing European political correctness and degeneracy. They like to contrast European feebleness with robust American traditionalism. It’s long past time that such Americans took a more critical look at their own country’s role in the decline of the West. Americans don’t seem to realise that the virus of PC began in the US then spread to Europe where there were fewer constitutional protections from the worst accesses such as so-called hate speech laws.
The poster who said Europe can only be strong again if the US leaves is correct. Not only that, it would be good for the US as well. (Just ignore the hysterical screams of “ISOLATIONIST!” from Max Boot, John McCain and his mini-me Lindsay Graham). The US would not be saddled with useless allies and the resentment – on both sides – that goes with such a relationship and each European nation-state would be free of the crutch that is US military protection and they would also be able to ignore US PC moralizing about the evils of nationalism and intolerance towards Muslim immigrants. Realism would return to the continent and the West would be stronger in the long term. If such realism did not return then the US could then more easily wash its hands of Europe. A US military withdrawal from Europe should be made an issue in the next election.
So let’s say that the apparent equilibrium of today, there, suits our appreciation
Yes, MC, I am speaking of the present, as I do know some of the history of Rwanda and Burundi. The Tutsi victory was a very “ugly” one, to use an American sports metaphor, because 500-800 thousand peope had to die first. May the equilibrium hold.
A lot of really damaging stuff looks to go through in the next 18 months.
Now the nitwits are preparing to let mexican trucks through the border uninspected with unlimited access to the USA.
As Obama hands America’s trucking industry to dangerous Mexican trucks Hoffa bleats like a sheep
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2747345/posts
Charles@54
I did a brief stint as an over-the-road trucker a little over a year ago in a fit of temporary insanity. I had the pleasure to picking up a load in Detroit and taking it down to Laredo, ultimate destination somewhere in Mexico. I picked up an international load in Laredo and brought it back up to Dayton, OH.
I’m not sure what it’s symbolic of, but it’s gotta be symbolic of SOMETHING that the load going down consisted of a full load of pallets that had come up earlier and had been reconditioned to use for more loads, and the load coming back consisted of finished goods on the exact same type of pallets. Do we even make ANYTHING here anymore?
I am happy to report that there are a LOT of beautiful women down along the border, by the way. At least if, like me, you appreciate Mexican women.
Don Rodrigo #47
I agree completely that the memory of Ruwanda led to R2P. But don’t forget the genocide of Darfur. When Hillary Clinto “suspended” her presidental campaign she finished the announcement by getting with some other liberal fems and chanting about all the stuff they were gonna do, one day, presumably when they had the power; one of them was “end the genocide in Darfur.”
And the problem with “ending the genocide in Darfur” in the first place is that it would require Regime Change in Sudan, that horrible, horrible, discredited G.W. Bush concept. So with Obama away in Brazil, Hillary came up with R2P to “stop the genocide in Durfur, uhhh, I mean, Libya” without employing Regime Change.
Except now, of course, they have figured out that Regime Change is the only thing that will work and they are backing into that position so they can look like they were there all along without ever admitting they went there. Like walking onto a theater backwards as the previous crowd comes out in order to keep from having to buy a ticket for the next show. Being a DC politician is about never having to say you were wrong – and especially about never having to say that your opponents were right all along.
36. epignosis
Those words are Barry’s own. If you purchase the audio book Dreams of My Father… there they are.
What the video artist did is simply draw the images he saw while listening to the pResident.
Music was added.
Swami.
It would be interesting to find out if NATO could manufacture shell and replacement gun barrels to accomplish the goal as you suggest could be done. Given current performance, probably not. Consider none of NATO’s planes have been shot down. They’re short of money, scheduled maintenance due to high op tempo, and munitions. Maybe their pilots have hit their quarterly or annual max hours or something. Maybe every little town needs not one but two HIV/AIDS counselors and they can’t afford to fight the fight they wanted to fight and take care of the home folks.
Switching to shoals of shells–shell shoals–and replacing barrels every so often (hundred rounds, thousand rounds, five hundred rounds?)might not be any easier than maintaining what would probably be something short of Red Flag optempo but without any, you know, opposition.
I was in 69-71 and while SEA was getting the ink, everybody was looking over his shoulder at the Warsaw Pact. OCS was six months at the time and we joked that we doubled our fathers’ three months because we had two wars to learn to fight. And to think we would have been depending on these clowns…. You know, nobody thinks the Anglosphere battalions were slackers. Everybody knew how they’d done in WW I and WW II and Korea. Our fathers and uncles and high school history teachers told us. But to consider that what we had as partners was…battalions. With a guaranteed shortage of beans, bullets, and beer.
Coisty, the Europeans are big boys and girls and know how to reject anything emanating from the US if they so choose. After all, they reject missile defenses, nukes, Microsoft and American beef when it suits them. Why not also PC nonsense? The post-war seeds must have found very fertile ground there indeed to have been so successful. Probably the crapola cranked out by Hollywood over the last 30-40 years has had more influence than any nose-sticking by ambitious ambassadors.
My (admittedly jaundiced) view of the purpose and intention behind R2P?:
Certainly NOT to help anyone in Darfur. (After all, they’re just black folks; but more importantly, their murderers are Arabs and they can’t be touched; so no dice, can’t help ‘em. Ain’t that right Rev. Wright? Mr. Farrakhan? Alice Walker? Mr. President?)
And certainly NOT to help resolve the Libyan fiasco. (Though as a precedent for going in to “help and protect,” as it were, Libya has presented a priceless opportunity that could not be overlooked.)
And certainly NOT to help any Syrian riff-raff (or otherwise) threatening to take down Israel’s nemesis (and Iran’s best friend and ally).
And certainly NOT to help any Congolese (see the first point, above).
And certainly NOT to provide Lebanon with true independence from the Hizbullah/Iran/Syria vise in which it finds itself.
Etc.
The rationale for R2P (based on the admitted ideology of its architect-in-chief) is to protect Israel’s enemies, who after launching attacks on the Jewish State from within civilian emplacements will face the inevitable massive Israeli retribution.
As I said, my jaundiced view.
8. wretchard
That is why I’m pushing a bank run. IT will take out the Jekyll Island system and FORCE the Politicians to get off the pot.
Richard, that was the Soviet theory. One of the draw bacvks was unit density. Huge Traffic jams as all those broken down BTR’s and T-72′s clogged the roads. What the air-to-mud boys called a target rich environment. Doctrine called for a Soviet formation to be fought out to a 1/3 rate. Then the next echelon would pass thru. That is where the fiction came in. Soviet Doctrine left out the Enemy. Since the enemy ALWAYS gets a vote, leaving them out of the calculation is never a good idea.
Of course NATO had similar delusions.
I was attending a planning session for one of the Reforgers and during the after meeting beer drinking I asked some planners how they planned on dealing with the 20 million or so Germans headed for the border in their Mercedes piled high with family heirlooms. Everybody got quite and looked away, then the German Major holding court changed the subject. NATO NEVER had any sort of plan to keep the roads open for the Reforger troops. The Soviets never had any plan for dealing with the Honest John and it’s 200+ Sarin loaded sub-munitions.
What I don’t think people grasp is how Arab minds work. When the protesters were fighting by themselves they were desperate; when NATO intervened they took a more relaxed approach: why take risks when outsiders are willing to fight in your cause? You can always go back to fighting for yourself later, when they leave. So I doubt that Qaddafi will be defeated as long as NATO is relying on the locals and refusing to send even a battalion of ground troops.
stoicheion
Hackett in “August, 1985″ dealt with civilian traffic, although it was mostly the sovs doing the running over.
A column of tanks is a tough target, at least tougher than a column of trucks, which you say the sovs didn’t think worth the effort. They are armored and, given the concentration of combat power, merit AAA protection. Presumably the broken down vehicles would be pushed off the road, providing at least two lanes.
Point is, they didn’t have to win the war. They only had to break through seriously in two or three places and SACEUR has the nuke question.
It was said that the IAF took so many casualties attacking the Egyptian formations in 73 that the IDF said, go home, dammit, we’ll do this ourselves. Reminds me of a story my father told about B25s trying to prep a town for my father’s unit to attack. So many were getting shot down that the doughs were screaming, uselessly, for the airdales to get out of there.
So tac air west of the IGB might have been target rich from NATO flyers’ pov, but the air might have seemed the same to the sov AAA. Might look at the Hanoi ring for analogous air defenses. And that wasn’t considered a great place to visit. ‘course the ROE would have been different. Right? Right???
63. Richard Aubrey
The peaceful invasion of 1968 proved that more than half of the Soviet tanks couldn’t make it to the undefended objectives.
Later, August, 1980, versus Poland, the Soviets mobilized a strike army to her East. The mobilization was a fiasco. Lacking enough chow, the troops roamed the countryside Napoleon style raiding every farm in sight.
After a bit, it was decided that the whole invasion schtick was dead — they’d have to go the ‘police route.’
The Soviets proved to themselves that they were too incompetent to invade. Someone must have brought up Russian history: she ALWAYS starts out a loser and wins only in the end game. There have been no exceptions.
As for invading Germany, France ( stopping at the Rhine was NEVER in the battle plan — it was always Paris or bust ) the Soviets would be attacking THE two countries known to launch armies out of a cannon.
When you cut through all of the propaganda and lies…
America NEVER intended to let the Soviets seriously get across the inter-German border, EVER.
In the early years the response was going to be atomic — and massive.
Later NATO re-built the German Army — to go no where. It was still going to be an atomic war.
Later still, 1978 wargames, the possibility of stopping the Soviets with conventional arms first started to look practical.
At the end, it was discovered by both sides that the war would have gone atomic within minutes, not hours, and that it would have erased Europe first, then America and Russia — and the rest of the world.
blert.
When I was at Benning, we studied nukes. Hell, we had an hour block of instruction about almost everything. We thought nukes were unprofessional.
What is the rationale about believing the war would go nuke in minutes? If NATO could stop the Warsaw Pact with conventional weapons, why get themselves nuked by starting nuking?
If the sovs were going to start nuking everybody, why bother invading? What would they have had?
Aubrey slaps own wrist. What the hell was I thinking? No war has been begun by anybody who could be demonstrated to have been rational. It was always stupid, involved wishful thinking, rose-colored glasses, and could have been seen at the get-go to be a loser. Not just in hindsight.
Even so, some times you win. But the Germans mostly not, and the Japanese….