Can’t Buy Me Love
Lost amid the crisis shaking the region was an Egyptian Army operation against Coptic Monastery in Egypt after Mubarak had fled. The news was reported on Al Masry al Youm — not exactly daily reading inside the Beltway — and featured on a YouTube video, which you may view after the Read More. Interestingly, the Al Masry al Youm says that the Copts gathered in Tahrir Square to protest the use of armor against the monastery.
Around 2000 Copts gathered on Wednesday in Tahrir Square to protest reports that an Egyptian army unit had attacked the Monastery of Saint Pishoy in the Nitrian Desert earlier on Wednesday.
Protesters said that a military unit using armored vehicles had demolished newly-built fences surrounding the old Coptic monastery. They claimed that the soldiers fired live bullets at monks. They added that two had been injured and transferred to the Anglo-American hospital in Cairo.
The video is below. Since I lack Arabic, I sent the video to the Belmont Club’s Egyptian expert for analysis, who provided the context and supplied a translation for what was being said in the background.
embedded by Embedded VideoYouTube Direkt
Bedouin attacks on desert monasteries have become quite common in recent years, but have not led to any official protection. Following a recent violent attack on this monastery, the local authorities told the monks to organise their own protection, which they did by the building the wall seen in the video. The authorities decided that they shouldn’t have done this. Their response is as you see — armored firepower and troops in battle gear are brought to bear on unarmed monks and local civilians, without warning
You hear ‘kyrie eleison’ chanted during the attack: a Greek expression, testifying to some of the ancient roots of the Coptic Church. The soldiers attacking the monastery wall have no idea of this of course. Half a millenun of pre-conquest Christian history of Egypt has been wiped from the school books They are schooled, like other Egyptians, to believe that the Copts are essentially foreign intrusions onto Muslim soil.
In the last minute or so, one soldier is to be seen actually attacking a tree. The background voice comments on the irrational hatred suggested by such an act.
You also see the monks collecting the bullet casings. They are here anticipating — correctly — that the Army would later deny that any such ammunition was used.
In other words, for the Copts at least it’s the same old same old in the ‘new’ Egypt, though this time with a protest in Tahrir Square.
If they had better publicists, the Copts would receive at least as much sympathy as the Palestinians. But they are poor and have no one to plead their case. If they had money they would be at least as well represented as Mohammar Khadaffi, who counted among his admirers people like Jeremiah Wright and Louis Farrakhan.
The Atlantic Wire notes that Khadaffi still has the unstinting support of those Leftist stalwarts, Hugo Chavez and Fidel Castro. And why not? The Duck of Death has been the godfather of left wing insurgencies and causes from one end of the earth to the other.
Among other things, he bankrolled the Islamic secessionist movement in the Philippines and brokered the Tripoli Agreement with Ferdinand Marcos. As late as March, 2010 the President of the UN General Assembly, a former Libyan diplomat, was declaring his displeasure at the lack of full implementation of the agreement — probably because the rebels really have no interest in laying down their arms — at a conference of the Special Non-Aligned Movement Ministerial Meeting on Interfaith Dialogue and Cooperation. Conference names like that are normally minted at the same place that named the Ministry of Truth, the Ministry of Plenty and the Ministry of Love.
But backing rebellions in the Philippines was small potatoes. As Ezra Levant notes, Khadaffi bankrolled everything that would go boom — and the Europeans let him — for that most mundane of reasons. Money.
Where did Moammar Gadhafi, the brutal dictator of Libya, get the money to pay the foreign mercenaries who are butchering his people? How did he pay for those French-made fighter jets strafing protesters?
Europe, mainly. Europe buys 80% of Libya’s oil. Other than terrorism, that’s pretty much the only thing Libya exports.
That would be the same Europe against which Gadhafi’s regime committed most of its terrorism. In 1984, the Libyan embassy in London opened fire on peaceful protesters outside, mowing down 11 of them and killing a 25-year-old police officer named Yvonne Fletcher.
Gadhafi was just getting warmed up. In 1986, he bombed a Berlin nightclub killing three people and injuring 230. In 1988, he bombed a 747 jet over Lockerbie, Scotland, killing all 259 people aboard and 11 on the ground. In 1989, he bombed a plane flying from Chad to Paris, killing 170.
That would also be the same Europe, Levant notes, that is on the warpath against Canadian oil because it takes 20 grams more of carbon dioxide to produce a megajoule of energy than does Libya. Poor Ezra Levant fails to recognize that while stopping massacres might be mildly important, stopping carbon dioxide is about saving the planet. But anyway he writes:
the very week when Gadhafi and his son told the world they’d fight democracy protesters to the last bullet, was the week the European Union chose to criticize Canada’s oilsands because — get this — they say we have 20 more grams of carbon dioxide per megajoule of oil than Libya does.
It’s true, it takes more energy to produce oil from Canada’s oilsands than from Libya’s desert because we have to steam it out of the sand.
European oil imports from Iraq and Nigeria have the same carbon footprint as our oilsands. Those countries burn off the natural gas that comes up when they pump oil — an illegal environmental practice in Canada. And oil from Hugo Chavez’s Venezuela has even higher carbon emissions.
Our European friends are silent on all of this. …
Our European friends are silent on all of this.
It’s showboating, since Canada only exports oil to the United States. If Europe wants to make a big deal out of not liking the oil we’re not selling to them anyway, that’s fine. But fair’s fair. If they don’t like Canadian oil because of 20 grams of CO2, let’s insist they swear off oil with blood in it.
Reports put Gadhafi’s spree at 1,000 people dead. The human body has about 185 ounces of blood. So that’s 185,000 ounces of blood, not counting the blood of Libyans who were only injured.
Money buys a lot of friends, blood or no. Khadaffi appealed to his “friend” Tony Blair to help him in his hour of need. Not an unreasonable request from someone who is believed to have over $31 billion of deposits in London. For that kind of mazuma you’d expect at least a character reference.
Khadaffi was even closer to Italy, within whose territory the Vatican nestles. The Australian notes that no other major Western country had such extensive ties, including an arms trade. In its defense, Italy has claimed that it had no choice but to go along in order to work with Libya to stem the flood of refugees crossing the Mediterranean. But however that may be, don’t expect Christian Europe or Catholic Italy to put in a good word for the Copts. It’s a whole lot more lucrative to deal with the Robbers.
Politics runs on things like money, oil and trade; and sentiment for co-religionists like the Copts plays a very small and insignificant part in serious affairs, as probably do things like patriotism, love of country and respect for common decency. Why can a mosque can be built at the World Trade Center site? Follow the money. Is it a mystery why Islamism is so above criticism? Follow the money. Is it a wonder why people like Castro, Chavez and Khadaffi (until recently) are the darlings of the Left? Follow the money.
Money makes the world go round. George Galloway was for a long time an apologist for Saddam Hussein. He’s still the darling of the Left. Only two days ago, Vogue ran a special puff piece on that beautiful couple, the Assads of Damascus. And why not? People in Damascene palaces are typically more fashionable than monks from a dusty monastery in the middle of the desert.
Roger Sandall, reflecting on the lives of John Gunther and Walter Duranty, wonders aloud about how much the “journalistic and literary culture of the time” contributed to the Second World War. So much of what readers failed to learn about Hitler and Stalin was the result of “self-censorship”; the consequence of a kind of omerta that only those on the inside truly understood. Duranty, for example, was a widely known to be a pervert, a scoundrel and a liar. Yet:
How could someone from the world of Aleister Crowley and the Paris bohemian demi-monde be hired by the New York Times as its resident commentator in Moscow on Russia under Bolshevik rule? How did he become the best-read authority in the US on Stalin’s famous planned economy? Why was such a man invited to Washington in July 1932 to advise Roosevelt about Soviet gold production?
It could happen because he was part of the Brotherhood, party to the fix and in on the secret. Eliding the true nature of Hitler and Stalin was just one more secret among so many. Money is why murderers are treated better than they should be, and why we are surprised to discover, once they are unmasked, how much everyone knew all along. The lack of money is why Coptic monasteries can get beaten down with armored vehicles and the event only get coverage in Al Masry al Youm. Not that anyone should mind, for that is the way of the world, but at least the apologists of unsavory causes and dictators should see themselves for what they are, before they daily put on the mask of moral superiority.
It is probably no coincidence that some of those who benefited most from Khadaffi are now calling for the seizure of his money. “Britain, through the United Nations, is pressing for asset seizures, for travel bans, for sanctions, for all of those things we can do to hold those people to account, including investigating for potential crimes against humanity,” Businessweek reported. And the UN Security Council voted unanimously, 15-0 to “to freeze the assets of the Libyan leader, his daughter and four of his sons”. Diplomats from the EU told Dow Jones Newswires that governments agreed to freeze Libyan assets. But sooner or later frozen assets become cold cash. Dying dictatorships attract politicians the way a carcass attracts buzzards.
If by some miracle the Duck of Death survives in power it would be interesting to see how lasting the opprobrium of the international community would be. And as for the Copts, there will be no Rachel Corries, no Lauren Booths, no humanitarian flotillas, no celebrity benefits; and all they have is this slender promise:
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, [even] unto the end of the world.
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An excellent post Richard.
The Egyptians pogrommed out their Jews in the 50′s so they cannot scapegoat them. When food shortages really hit, the Copts will cop the blame.
I hope your book is selling well.
“Slender promise” Wretchard?
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled : for all these things must come to pass , but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. 10 And then shall many be offended , and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise , and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound , the love of many shall wax cold . 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved . 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come .
When our day comes we shall see.
“Politics runs on things like money, oil and trade; and sentiment for co-religionists like the Copts plays a very small and insignificant part in serious affairs, as probably do things like patriotism, love of country and respect for common decency.”
Even Rome serves Mammon first. No wonder it’s so hard to find good role models.
The allies: Left-liberal socialists & Mohammedanism.
The mugs:
Canada: Liberal Ad$Cam MartinJr.:
“Gaddafi no terrorist to Paul Martin **
Gaddafi no terrorist to Paul Martin, scandal-plagued Paul Martin Liberal Government, Muammar Gaddafi, Libya, Great Man-Made River Project, SNC-Lavalin, friends, water …”
http://www.canadafreepress.com/2004/cover122004.htm
http://beta.images.theglobeandmail.com/archive/00250/Martin_and_Gadha_250081artw.jpg
Britain: socialist Blair:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/revealed-blairs-secret-calls-to-gaddafi-2226887.html?action=Popup
“Revealed: Blair’s secret calls to Gaddafi
Ex-PM phones Libyan despot – and urges him to quit, while SAS mounts daring rescue of oil workers stranded in desert”
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/revealed-blairs-secret-calls-to-gaddafi-2226887.html
So that no one remains confused about the root of evil, we should note that the subject is only one word, which is not money. The subject is φιλαργυρία, derived from philarguros, meaning avarice or love of money.
So the root of the evil that is being castigated in 1 Timothy 6:10 is not money, the physical object, specie, or fiat currency, but it is a mental attitude of inappropriate desire. Perhaps better translated lust for money or avarice, what is being described is a Mental Attitude Sin.
What the Word of God is capable of that mankind continually fails at, is judging the thoughts and intents of the heart (soul). We can only infer intent from verbal emanations or physical actions. Therefore our judgments, both legal and extra legal are often flawed.
I have some words to say about it here:
http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/2011/02/attack-on-coptic-monastary-in-egypt.html
The money shot:
This seems to be a rather excessive reaction to what amounts to a building code violation.
Ezra Levant and all of us need to start changing the verbal battlespace by calling these “killings” exactly what they are: murder. A 25 year old police officer was not “killed.” She was murdered. People in a night club were not “killed.” They were murdered. People aboard jets blown out of the sky were not “killed.” They were murdered. The taking of innocent life is defined as murder. All of us need to stop sanitizing it and call it exactly what it is: MURDER.
“If by some miracle the Duck of Death survives in power”
It won’t be a miracle, it will be rivers of blood. Chinese killed a Lot at Tiananmen Square. The “official’ guesstimate is 8,000. Col. Quack-quack is probably passed that already. And Libya has gone beyond food riots. When Armored vehicles roam the streets looking for prey, Civil war is an apt description. The winner will be the side with the best logistics. Normally that is the way it works.
I would give the Duck of Death a slight advantage at the moment. While the Libyan Army struggles to reach the level of very incompetent, they are still better then a bunch of camel jockeys that have never driven any sort of vehicle, much less a military one.
We should note that the Copts are the only true Egyptians. The Arabs are colonizers.
The Copts violated the rules of the (probably fictitious) Pact of Umar II of 717 by improving their church. They did not act like proper dhimmis. From the wiki;
Richard can you free my frozen comment in spam moderation on the last thread?
The Leftist Media is also a Brotherhood, conniving to keeping the truth from reaching YOU, and misrepresenting and slandering those it despises on a global scale.
They lie and misrepresent on a scale equal if not exceeding that other Brotherhood.
What their are really doing is undermining their own societies. But so what?….
Yes, the MSM Brotherhood: “All the bathwater that’s fit to throw (never mind about that baby)”
Very good work Richard. Well done. I pray for the Copts.
“How did he pay for those French-made fighter jets strafing protesters?”
“Apparently Dassault only returned 4 Libyan Mirages to flight-ready status. With 2 F1ED now in Malta, that leaves 2 F1BD two-seaters in Libya.
The two-seaters do not have internal guns, and apparently the rockets are from the original stocks delivered around 1980, which is causing headaches in Malta because they are time-expired and potentially unstable. Seems like the pilots were smart to defect, because the rockets might have blown up in their faces on launch!”
“La Libye n’a plus que deux Mirage F1 en état de vol
Les deux autres sont désormais à Malte.”
http://www.marianne2.fr/blogsecretdefense/La-Libye-n-a-plus-que-deux-Mirage-F1-en-etat-de-vol_a142.html
the jetfighters were sold in 1970 years
the other planes that Libya has are russian’s
“Our European friends are silent on all of this.”
but our American friends? couac !
The cables, from the American Defence Intelligence Agency (DIA), suggest that Iran was behind the attack on Pan Am flight 103, which killed 270 people in 1988, in response to the shooting down of an Iranian commercial airliner by the USS Vincennes, an American warship, five months earlier.
One document that the defence team had planned to produce was a memo from the DIA dated September 24, 1989. It states: “The bombing of the Pan Am flight was conceived, authorised and financed by Ali-Akbar (Mohtashemi-Pur), the former Iranian minister of interior.
“The execution of the operation was contracted to Ahmad (Jabril), Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine General Command (PFLP-GC) leader, for a sum of 1,000,000 US dollars.
“One hundred thousand dollars of this money was given to Jabril up front in Damascus by the Iranian ambassador to Sy [ie Syria], Muhammad Hussan (Akhari) for initial expenses. The remainder of the money was to be paid after successful completion of the mission.”
The document is included in an unpublished report by the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission, a public body that considers miscarriage of justice claims and which had cast doubt in 2007 on the safety of Megrahi’s conviction.
The report also cites a DIA briefing in December 1989 entitled Pan Am 103, Deadly Co-operation, which named Iran as the probable state sponsor of the bombing.
Robert Baer, a retired senior CIA agent who claims that Iran was behind the attack, has alleged that the Americans were wary of pursuing the country in case it disrupted oil supplies and damaged the economy.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article6797773.ece
http://archives.24heures.ch/VQ/LAUSANNE/-/article-2000-06-2247/lockerbie–revelationsun-transfuge-iranien-balance-son-paysun-mois-apres-le-debut-du-proces-des
hmm, FPLP-CG, and Iran responsabilities were volontary occulted
Thank you for an excellent post on the persecution of the Copts.
I am contemplating a way to even the odds. I shall declare myself Robert Arafatopoulos, leader of the Ionian Liberation Front. We shall force all the descendants of Greeks who fled Turkey in the 1920s to re-ghettoize in dreadful camps up near Didymoticho. We will get vast UN and EU funding. From there, we will shell Constantinople, and demand the return of that city, Smyrna and Trebizond as well.
Have I missed anything?
I don’t think politics is always about money. Those beautiful cathedrals in Italy and the rest of Europe were built largely to demonstrate the willingness to sacrifice the material as an expression of awareness of and homage to God.
The trouble is that Italy and the rest of Europe are no longer Christian, having been hollowed out by the materialist theology birthed by Rousseau, Marx and others.
As events unfold, it is increasingly clear that this world war is being waged by the materialists, which is where Islam seems oddly to belong, against Israel and the New Israel. This, more than anything else, explains the targeting of the United States, a Christian country, Barry’s confusion notwithstanding.
And Lord Acton is right. We know how this war turns out. We win.
Is it news that Europe buys oil from fanatic Muslims? Including from US oil companies producing it for fanatic Muslims?
The Islam/dhimmi thing has never been even as good as claimed, with huge massacres of Jewish dhimmi communities over the centuries. In the modern world there is less reason for the dhimmis to stay, dar al-Islam shed its Jews fifty years ago, and is shedding its Christians now. So be it, simplifies targeting later.
Thank you for this post Mr. Fernandez.
by the materialist theology birthed by Rousseau, and the Marx brothers
“In the last minute or so, one soldier is to be seen actually attacking a tree. The background voice comments on the irrational hatred suggested by such an act.”
Amazing. Dust off your bible and turn to Deuteronomy 20:19.
Despite growing out of Judeo-Christian roots, Islam as practiced today has basically no relation to the Judeo-Christian tradition rooted in the Bible. On paper all three major religions are similar (particularly when contrasted to polytheists). But what matters in the end is what they do with the paper. The practical effect of a religion is the actions of the believers, not the contents of the beliefs.
Is there no way the Copts can arm for self defense? There were many reports of Egyptians using sidearms and AKs for defense and anti-burglary patrols during the riots. Perhaps self-defense is only allowed to the Muslims and not the dhimmi.
W,
I think you’re wrong about the impact better publicists would have. The problem is that very few governments give a crap about Christians or Jews. They aren’t violent enough.
If the Copts started killing Westerners, or Jews, though, then they would get a lot more sympathy.
15. maineman
“…..war is being waged by the materialists, which is where Islam seems oddly to belong,..”
I have long felt that Islam is a political system disguised as a religion. If you veiw Islam through the prism of politics rather than faith a lot of its idiosyncrasies are more easily understood. Their alliance with the materialists is explicable in terms of their desire for conquest (a desire going unquenched these past five centuries). Islam is not a religion that converts through persuasion, they convert through violence and enslavement.
Look at what passes for a martyr amongst the followers of Mohammed as opposed to the martyrs of the early Church and the difference is quite stark.
Materialists are totalitarians at heart so they look at Islam as a fellow traveller.
Thank you, Richard, for the essay.
Maybe at some point the predictive power of Rene Girard will falter, but his analysis of the scapegoating instinct as a foundation of human societies seems still on target. His comment on Islam is that it is apparently “unaware” of its scapegoating imperatives. There’s an understatement.
The West has the opposite problem, a Rachel Corrie engaging in selective favoring of victims, usually the ones that stroke one’s sense of moral virtue, or (in the case of the oil meisters) line one’s pocket in some way.
Money can’t buy you love . . . but it kind of does, at least for a long time, until someone else can take it from you.
Jay, beltway,
The destruction of trees was universally recognized as against the most basic rules of combat and contrary to divine law for all communities. Muhammad specifically broke that law when he ordered the destruction of the trees of the Jewish Banu Nadir tribe before expelling them from Yathrib (Medina) in 625. To do this he declared a new revelation creating a special exemption from the law at his convenience. He did the same thing to justify pederasty, treaty breaking, betraying a host, using poison, and other crimes. Since he is seen as the perfect man the example of Muhammad is one that other Moslems seek to emulate. Therefore a soldier could see himself as gaining merit by attacking a tree during a period of religious combat.
Islamists trumpet the environmentally sensitive passages in the Quran, without mentioning that those passages are considered as superseded by other destructive sections under Islamic doctrine.
Still hoping the Wretchard will check the spam/moderation list on the last thread.
CHRISTIANITY WAS DOMINANT BEFORE THERE WAS ISLAM
The history and plight of the Copts brings to mind the history of the Dark Ages and early Christianity.
Whatever the demerits of the Crusaders (and there were many), their military missions were in response to a very real threat at the time, and one that had been ongoing for centuries (“Song of Roland” anyone?).
It is forgotten that the Mediterranean basin was largely Christian at the time Islam emerged from the Arabian peninsula. The distorted notion that Crusaders were simply western “invaders” on land viewed as having been Muslim since “forever” or something, is ridiculous and ignorant. Most people aren’t even aware that Arabs were not the chief target, but the Turks, who were even viewed as enemies by Arabs, co-religionists or not. Also, the Christian, and Jewish, presence in the Middle East was still substantially larger than it is now if one excludes modern Israel.
exhelodrvr 20. “If the Copts started killing Westerners, or Jews, though, then they would get a lot more sympathy.”
In order for that to work they would have to deliberately but unconciously re-enact a murder with a new victim in place of the originally murdered victim, creating a vicious circle of violence. I suspect the Copts, particularly Coptic monks, look to Christ as the one victim for all time and memorialize that murder symbolically in the Liturgy rather than pass it into the present. And everyone knows the Liturgy is totally declasse.
Don Rodrigo @ 24 said:
“It is forgotten that the Mediterranean basin was largely Christian at the time Islam emerged from the Arabian peninsula. The distorted notion that Crusaders were simply western “invaders” on land viewed as having been Muslim since “forever” or something, is ridiculous and ignorant.”
Don Rodrigo is repeating one of my standard rants, that Northern Africa and Asia Minor were originally Christian. Constantinople, Alexandria and Carthage were among Christianity’s foremost cities. One obvious response is that it’s time to roll-back Islam’s influence and restore these ancient cities to their former glory. This response ignores the ugly reality that Islam was designed through accident and/or social Darwinism as the next best thing in religion. Call Islam “Judaism Version 3.0″ where Christianity was “Judaism Version 2.0″. Arab intellectuals who have wanted to rid themselves of Islam have understood Christianity’s basic limitation and used atheism or secularism as the alternative religion. Typically these atheist Arabs have been Communists. Of course from our perspective it’s hard to judge whether Arab Communists or worse than Islamists. Trying to replace Islam with Christianity is a no starter. The best strategy is to encourage Islam to reform itself or embrace secularism without Marxism.
Important corollary to Eggplant/Don Rodrigo.
North Africa and the Middle East were Christian, then Arab/Muslim, then Turkish/Muslim until the end of World War I. For less that 50 years, the British were there and it’s been just as long that the region has been free.
Yet whom to the Arabs blame for their backward state? Not the Turks, and not themselves, but the West.
The best strategy is to encourage Islam to reform itself or embrace secularism without Marxism.
If frogs had wings they wouldn’t bump their ass on the ground.
The Wobblies’ One Big Noodle vs Huxley’s Dystopia.
“This corroborated a long-held suspicion that “progressive” ideology is predicated on feelings, rather then logic.” S’course.
…-
“A Brave New Plan for America, the World, and Noodles: My Time in Madison, Wisconsin”
“To the contrary, they are warm, kind-eyed, genuine. Among them are some of the politest protestors I have met at a left-wing rally.”
“The ideas expressed seemed to all be traceable to a common emotional impetus – a general disdain for “the ruling class” and the free market instead of any sober assessment of economic science. This corroborated a long-held suspicion that “progressive” ideology is predicated on feelings, rather then logic.
I did not show up to this meeting uninvited. The night prior, I had encountered within the Capitol a young man named Rob Lewis, early 20s, an activist with ISO. Kind, bright and friendly, he explained, very eloquently, just what was going on upstairs in that building, and how it ought to be interpreted and addressed from the standpoint of “the workers.” He told me he was one, at a local chain restaurant called Noodles. So I asked him how things would be different at Noodles if he had his way, and could successfully implement the ISO vision.
Lewis proceeded to illustrate how the world is made up of “workers,” and “capitalists,” and how he and his fellow Noodles employees, whom he describes as “the workers,” would act as a virtual board of directors, while the owner, the “capitalist” would be kindly offered a seat at the table (socialists are, after all, humanitarians), but would be forced to accept their terms and sit down as a “co-equal,” or be simply kicked to the curb.”
http://biggovernment.com/chartsock/2011/02/28/a-brave-new-plan-for-america-the-world-and-noodles-my-time-in-madison-wisconsin/
Not that there’s any reason to hurry. Reuters-”US repositions military forces around Libya.”
On the video: That’s the vaunted US trained Egyptian military? They looked and acted like one of Farrakan’s gangs, but with armor. For a while there I was thinking the wall was going to win.
“Oh Lord, have mercy on us” — is about right!
29. maz2:Lewis proceeded to illustrate how the world is made up of “workers,” and “capitalists,” and how he and his fellow Noodles employees, whom he describes as “the workers,” would act as a virtual board of directors, while the owner, the “capitalist” would be kindly offered a seat at the table (socialists are, after all, humanitarians), but would be forced to accept their terms and sit down as a “co-equal,” or be simply kicked to the curb.”
Completely lost on Lewis is the fact that, without the capitalist, Noodles would not even exist. “The Workers” could create their own restaurant and run it however they wish but, no, the evil “Capitalist” should just hand over his property. Why never enters into their thought process. Idiots.
Robert Arvanitis @ 27 said:
“For less that 50 years, the British were there and it’s been just as long that the region has been free. Yet whom to the Arabs blame for their backward state? Not the Turks, and not themselves, but the West.”
Arabs are a proud people with a distinguished history. They pulled Hellenistic scholarship out of the West’s trash can, restored it and then went beyond it in mathematics, astronomy and architecture. One can not tour the Mamluk madressa mosques in Cairo and not be extremely impressed with the brilliance of Arab architecture. Just prior to the Reformation, Islamic culture was way ahead of the West in virtually all parameters. Then the West got lucky, went through the Renaissance, broke the stranglehold of the Catholic Church and embraced the scientific method. Our civilization went into hyperdrive while the Islamic world was stuck in the Middle Ages. If you’re an Arab, realizing this has got to hurt. Any rational analysis of why the Arab world was left behind leads to the conclusion that they needed to reform their damned religion. That’s a conclusion that they presently will not accept. Hating the West is the next best alternative to reforming their religion.
“The lack of money is why Coptic monasteries can get beaten down with armored vehicles and the event only get coverage in Al Masry al Youm.” Lack of money also explains why St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church, the only religious building to be destroyed on 9/11, is still tied up in Port Authority of NY red tape while Bloomberg fawned over the Islamic Center. The Greeks are patient but have finally had enough and announced they’re suing the Port Authority to finally permit the church to be rebuilt on its original ground or at a site less than a block away.
Pity the poor Greeks. No one cares about them unless they’re using German bank bailouts to buy German tear gas and riot gear.
When faced with such injustice, what else can a monk say but “Lord have mercy”?
Eggplant,
Read Bernard Lewis, you have it almost exactly backwards. Islamic Civilization did achieve great power and displayed great wealth but that involved surprisingly little creativity on the part of people raised to think according to the precepts of Islam. Many of the early achievements were derivative from subjugated cultures. Others were from individuals during the period of expansion. Society was more flexible while the controlling and exploitative aspects could be directed outward. Once checked Islam imploded intellectually as the engine of repression turned in. The wealth was largely rents extracted from trade and inefficient, compared to available technologies, agriculture.
The problem is the nature of Islam. It is not simply a variant on Christianity or Judaism purged of errors. That is a false claim. The differences are vast and involve the nature of God, the nature of man, the relations of God to man, the relation of man to man, the relation of man to authority, the nature of time, and the nature of knowledge. The Moslem says, “How can these scum become wealthy while we are poor? We treat them like dirt and rob them blind and yet they gain wealth and power. It is the Will of Allah because we have not followed his commandments well enough. He says we must conquer the Infidel and make them submit. Our failure shows that we have not tried to do that hard enough. Either that or there is some secret plot by outsiders to frustrate Allah’s Will. All else is unimportant.” The Christian or the Jew knows that they are commanded to deal justly with all, even the Stranger in the land, and that we are responsible to care for each other and God’s creation but not to presume upon his wishes. The Christian or Jew may and will do wrong but that is not because of Divine Will but in despite of it. When we fail the fault is ours.
They pulled Hellenistic scholarship out of the West’s trash can
This is a common theme. The West were poor and backwards students who should be grateful to the Moslems for saving the intellectual heritage the West was unworthy of.
Western Europe certainly did become poor and deurbanized during the early Middle Ages. At its height Ancient Rome had a population of well over a million. By the 6th century that was down under 50,000. That was due largely to the depredations of invading barbarians but plagues also played a part as well as the breakdown of irrigation, poor hygiene, and loss of trade in grain. Still despite the problems in the Western provinces the Empire in New Rome continued in wealth and power and learning. They beat back the Northern barbarians with difficulty in the Balkans and after long wars finally defeated the Persians in 629. The stage was set for a revival of trade and learning in the Mediterranean basin. Unfortunately at that moment the least likely of all forces appeared out of the desert.
Why didn’t Constantinople restore order to the West and transmit the learning of the Greeks? Byzantium was the Greek Civilization. The problem was Islam, which struck with perfect timing. It was the loss of the ancient urban centers of Mesopotamia and the Levant and North Africa, and above all Egypt with the Great Library, that cut Europe off from its heritage. To give the Moslems credit for possessing what they conquered strains credulity.
The phrase “pulled Hellenistic scholarship out of the West’s trash can” implies culpability, as if the West had deliberately disposed of the learning of the Greeks. That would be a canard but one that might be encouraged by those who view Judaism as a clannish superstition and Christianity as a brutal and ignorant intrusion located between ancient Philosophy and modern Secular Humanism. In that narrative Islam comes off well as a clean simple analogue of Atheism, with a god so abstract as to be ignored or treated as a variant on mathematics.
So Eggplant and Blast:
Where do the Irish monks fit into all this Islam and Hellenistic culture narrative?
From the then “far West,” the Irish monks went about preserving western learning of their own accord, and they did so in a Northern Europe that was at least half pagan at the time. It was the fact that Chritianity had not yet fully blossomed in the north that made the Islamic conquests all the more alarming. Christianity was on the ropes during the first half of the Dark Ages.
The comming problem for the Islamic countries is that as they kill and chase out all the heritics, apostates, and minorities, things will not get better, so they will define their internal scapegoats down even further. The killing will continue as part of the mob/circus entertainment. Then as the lack of food die off accelerates, they will find that a passive West no longer has the interest,sympathy, or the means to help them out.
“You can pull the ladder up now Jack, I’m OK.”
Don Rodrigo,
Good point. Most people do not consider just how near a thing the survival of Western Civilization was. Much of the brutality and paranoia of Medieval Europe only makes sense when you realize just how close they came to being wiped out. “Christendom” was reduced to a lifeboat, a narrow strip tied to Constantinople over pirate infested seas and few monastic islands in the wilderness. Their belief in miracles was under the circumstances understandable. Here is a wiki map of the Med in 650. That is just before the fall of Carthage, which was a major center of learning (Augustine of Hippo came from near there) and was after the losses of Antioch and Alexandria. Germania was still a pagan jungle and even the Lombard, Gothic and Frankish territories of the Old Empire in Gaul Iberia and Italy were more barbarian and even if nominally Christian steeped in illiteracy and heresy than seen as any asset in preserving learning. Consider that to the East were Slavs and Asians, Avars and Huns, who were seen as wilder and more dangerous than the Goths had been. Less than a hundred years after this even the ancient province of Iberia was lost to the invading Moors.
Charlemagne’s later campaigns in the trackless wilderness against Saxons, Sorbs and Avars was small compensation. The Norse invasions came after these disasters. Britain to anyone thinking of preserving the legacy of ancient learning had simply fallen off the map. At the end of the Middle Ages, when order was finally restored after centuries of depending on the bulwark of Byzantium (Tolkien’s model for Gondor) the fresh disaster of Manzikert meant the loss of the one sizable territory of the old empire that had survived. That is what set the stage for the Crusades as a response to 400 hundred years of Islamic aggression against the centers of Western Civilization.
e @ 33: Arabs are a proud people with a distinguished history. They pulled Hellenistic scholarship out of the West’s trash can, restored it and then went beyond it in mathematics, astronomy and architecture. One can not tour the Mamluk madressa mosques in Cairo and not be extremely impressed with the brilliance of Arab architecture. Just prior to the Reformation, Islamic culture was way ahead of the West in virtually all parameters.
I don’t know the timing of each structure, but at a glance it appears to me to only be parallel to the progress in architecture in Europe in the later middle ages. The Saudis are much bigger on destroying structures – even their own! – than building them. So much for Islam.
As for pulling Hellenistic culture out of the trash can – what did they do with it, in Islamic terms? Nothing at all. One can argue whether any progress in Islamic-conquered lands reflects Islam or the previous inhabitants. But none of it ever entered the locked and shuttered Islamic culture. The AK-47, RPG, and suicide vest are about the biggest changes to Islam in the last thousand years, and they are just details on jihad and assassin cults. Anyway, in Hellenistic terms you have to include Constantinople in “the west”, and I have to wonder how much that continued to feed Islamic centers all during the middle ages.
If Islam ever had any redeeming social values, one has to wonder if it still has them or has undergone a reverse reformation, a disintegration. Well, maybe if so, the pieces can be reassembled into something better.
24. Don Rodrigo
It is forgotten that the Mediterranean basin was largely Christian at the time Islam emerged from the Arabian peninsula.
………..
True but the dominant form of Christianity in the middle east and north africa was arian Christianity. The Nicean Creed is still recited in many denominations because of the Council of Nicaea that anathematized the Arian Heresy.
The arian heresy also drew from gnostic gospels whose story of Christ looks remarkably similar to that written in the Koran.
The arian bishops of Spain invited the Moors to cross the straights of Gibraltar in 711 to settle their disputes with trinitarian bishops.
The arian heresy is a low view of christ. That he is just a man. This low view of christ was embraced by protestant europe after 1848 and lead to the destruction of those churches in the next 100 years. The arian heresy was also embraced by the mainline protestant denominations in the USA. As a result– all of these denominations are in slow decline in the USA.
While the Catholic church is growing in the USA — this is mostly because of immigration. In Latin America evangelical and pentacostal christian churches grow by leaps and bounds. All these churches have the high view of Christ (ie he’s fully God and full Man.)
Why?
I’m not familiar with catholic doctrinal disputes but liberation theology would likely be nourished by a low view of Christ.
What is the problem with the low view of Christ.
The first problem is that the central mystery of the church is a human sacrifice. This is very creepy. Worse a human sacrifice is no more effectual for the forgiveness of sins than a chicken or a pig. People remain dead in their sin.
The second problem follows in part–but not wholly– from the first. The low view of Christ gives its practitioners no power beyond what they can gin up from their own persons.
Mr X
“Pity the poor Greeks. No one cares about them unless they’re using German bank bailouts to buy German tear gas and riot gear.”
oh that, I’ll bring it onto the blogs, where the Germanz display their money crisis authoritarian views, to upset them
41. Charles:
You know more about the nuances of early Christianity than I do, and I appreciate your post. The complexity of how Islamic expansion occurred is not widely known, including to me.
eggplant 26. “This response ignores the ugly reality that Islam was designed through accident and/or social Darwinism as the next best thing in religion. Call Islam “Judaism Version 3.0″ where Christianity was “Judaism Version 2.0″. Arab intellectuals who have wanted to rid themselves of Islam have understood Christianity’s basic limitation and used atheism or secularism as the alternative religion.”
Astonishing! So far off base it can’t even be said to be wrong. Was this synopsis drawn from a video game?
Blast From the Past @ 35 said:
“The problem is the nature of Islam. It is not simply a variant on Christianity or Judaism purged of errors. That is a false claim.”
I would not claim that Islam is a religion purged of Christianity’s and Judaism’s errors although that could be inferred from my previous post. I do claim that Islam was designed either through accident or Darwinian social evolution to effectively compel Christians and Jews to convert to Islam and prohibit Moslem populations from converting back to their earlier religions. Through an analogous process one could argue that Christianity had a similar influence upon Judaism. Along this line of reasoning, I would argue that Islam has been more “successful” as a religion than Christianity and likewise towards Judaism. However what has made Islam successful as a religion has made it catastrophic to it’s host culture. I would argue that Islam’s reliance on blind devotion and wrote memorization has made cultures under Islam’s influence insusceptible to the social forces that caused the Renaissance in Europe. Islam’s very strength as a religion is also the basis for an Islamic culture’s greatest weakness. Also, it is interesting to speculate how much sooner the Renaissance would have occurred in Europe if the late Roman Empire had adopted Judaism as its state religion rather than Christianity.
Don Rodrigo @ 37 asked:
“Where do the Irish monks fit into all this Islam and Hellenistic culture narrative?”
That’s an interesting question. Supposedly there was a time when Ireland was the last stronghold of Christianity. I actually find this hard to believe because Christianity was doing just fine thank you in Constantinople while the Irish monks were converting German pagans to Christianity. However it makes for a nice story, particularly if you’re Irish.
Brilliant.
Eggplant, Blast:
You ought to throw Marxism into the mix, especially in juxtaposition with Islam. Its design elements are ostensibly more “modern”, but I wonder. Much of that claim arises directly from the fact that Marxism was a parasite upon the West in its apogee. But as a system of thought and social organization itself Marxism does not seem to lend itself to scientific thinking.
There is nothing inherently progressive about it; nothing in its habits of thought which of themselves would lead us to the stars.
If you take Marxism and transplant it to a Third World country, you get a retrograde development. And given enough time, Marxism seems to have the ability to sterilize formerly vibrant societies, the current difficulties in the West being a suggestion of that.
There is a difference between a religion (and one should include Marxism) becoming successful and the success of the society which it influences. Marxism and Islam can claim success according to the calculus of political power; as once the medieval Church did. But that is not the same as inspiring success in the contextual society. They are a success the way a CEO who makes a lot of money out of bankrupt company is a success.
One of the practical difficulties with religions which take a “low view” of religious goals, such as for example, the personhood of Christ, is that it really weakens the sense of transcendence which motivates many.
That transcendence indirectly drives freedom, for if we have nothing to “gin up” but ourselves then we are not mentally leaning forward into something bigger than ourselves, and therefore had better start taking orders from the party in order to make ourselves comfortable before “the screen goes blank” — in the words of Christopher Hitchens.
Perhaps freedom requires some inclination not to accept death in order to prosper. The individual must believe, or hold the hope, that something in him is indestructible in order to go a little further yet. There must be in him, not an acceptance, but an uncompromising defiance of the “last enemy” — the the belief that this too, will be overcome. And it is that unreasonable quality of Christianity, perhaps, that made the society in which it was a dominant influence so successful, once upon a time.
“Ah, but a man’s reach should exceed his grasp, or what’s a heaven for?”
Re the Arab wave of conquest in the 7th Century. Historic bad luck. The Arabic tribes found the Byzantine and Sassanian empires at flukey weak points (not unconnected with the conflict between those two). Had one of these two polities not been at such a low ebb the Arabs would have been kicked back into the desert whence they came.
The Koran was probably written a century later. Mohammad probably couldn’t have been a peodophile, even by the standards applicable to merchant-brigand patriarchs of the time. Because he is probably fictitious.
BTW, may I wave the Union flag here a bit? Anyone noticed the way Cameron has calmly and authoritatively taken control of the Libyan crisis? SAS/SBS/RAF evacuate the desert and making the running diplomatically? Compare and contrast to Obama. Or Sarko but probably not Merkal (the special ops in the desert look like an Anglo-German effort).
Charles, I don’t think it is correct to say that the dominant form of Christianity in North Africa and the Middle East was the Arian form. In those regions the two major groups during Early Church days were the Catholics and Donatists. St. Augustine was a Catholic, the Copts are Catholics. North African Catholics communites survived in lingering form until the 12th century when all but the Copts were wiped out. The Donatists disappeared right away under the Muslim crush, however.
It is hard to distinguish Donatists from Catholics, too. The major way you could tell was by looking at the churches. The Donatist churches characteristically featured plain whitewashed walls, while the Catholic ones were adorned with painted imagery. Both groups held the same essential creeds, the same liturgies, and very similiar teachings. Didn’t stop them from hating each other’s guts to an unbelievable degree, but so it was. The chief difference was in attitude, I suppose. The Donatists estimated themselves to be a noble elect, similar to Calvin’s elect, while the Catholics believed the temporal church was more like a ark full of humanity, warts and all, certainly not perfect.
Though Arius himself became prominent in Alexandria, Arianism as a major force entered North Africa through the barbarian invaders. All of the Germanic tribes, with the execption of the Franks who proved the rule, were Arian and not Nicean.
St. Augustine was killed by the Vandals while they sacked Hippo in 490. The Vandals had been Arian Christians for a long time by then. Some of them, and subsequent waves of invaders and migrants, stook around. What resulted was a polyglot of different sects of Christians living together through North Africa, as indeed was the situation all over the Empire by this time.
It is convenient to think of the situation as High Church vs Low Church, with the High Church being the Catholics, Donatists, and various Orthodox groups. These were typically populated by the members of the older native cultures. The Low Church types would be the Arian sects, typically populated by the people of Germanic descent.
The dividing line between the High and Low Churches isn’t hard and fast, either. John Chryostom was one of the greatest and highly regarded of the Early Church fathers. Yet he taught in a Goth church, but in Constantinople. Theodoric the Osthogoth was quite the Arian barbarian, but at his court they still recited Virgil in Latin, while Boethius was over in the corner producing the era’s greatest works of philosophy.
—
On Liberation Theology, it has been condemned by the Vatican. Pope John Paul II led an effective campaign to marginalize it. He despised it, viewing it as attempt to graft Marxism onto Christianity. Pope Bendedict XVI shares the view. Your critique when you invoke the “low view of Christ” mirrors Benedict’s pretty well:
http://www.christendom-awake.org/pages/ratzinger/liberationtheol.htm
“St. Augustine was killed by the Vandals while they sacked Hippo in 490″
I didn’t know that, thanks. One way to achieve chastity and continence.
O’s last stand. The cat’s out.
It’s all about AlMoh.
It’s that “rookie right-wing governor”‘s fault.
But, TORedStar is a leftistagitproporgan; has been since 1936, FDR’s 2nd term.
Look at this: “14 Democratic senators hiding out across state lines in neighbouring Illinois,”.
Here’s what’shisname from his safe seat in WashDC: “On Monday, U.S. President Barack Obama cautioned in a speech to the National Governors’ Association against ganging up on public servants.
“I don’t think it does anybody any good when public employees are denigrated or vilified or their rights are infringed upon. We need to attract the best and the brightest to public service,” Obama said in Washington.”
…-
“Unions’ last stand in Wisconsin: ‘This is our Alamo’”
“Chicago Fire Department Lieutenant Paul Ryding, one of thousands of unionized workers to descend on the Wisconsin state legislature the past week, rallies in Madison, WI on Monday. Ryding is worried that anti-union laws in Wisconsin will spread to other states.”
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/946355–unions-last-stand-in-wisconsin-this-is-our-alamo?bn=1
O’s Red-Green AGW Ponzi collapses.
“I’m not ready to throw a Molotov cocktail at the D.C. government, but I’m very disappointed,” Levy said. That money “is my backup fund I use in case of sickness, my safety fund.”
“D.C. reneges on aid to install solar panels”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/27/AR2011022702910.html
H/T:
“Hopenchangen
Now is the time at SDA when we juxtapose!
Huffington Post, Oct. 2010 – Solar Panels On White House: Obama To Install Solar Panels In 2011
Washington Post, Feb. 2011 – Dozens of [Washington, CD] residents who installed solar panels on their homes under a government grant program promoting renewable energy have been told they will not be reimbursed thousands of dollars as promised…
Flashback! – “Renege on solar power angers farmers, investors”
Posted by Kate”
http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/
So, they’re reneging on the rebates for solar panels already installed. The unions should think on that. It is generally unwise to enter into a binding agreement with entities which can’t pay.
If the states are bankrupt, of what use will all these generous collective bargaining agreements be? I might as well make a bargain with the homeless man down in the town center. He can agree to pay me a million dollars next week and I’ll work for him. But if doesn’t have the capacity to pay, it’s self deception. So all that hope is going to be worthless unless there’s money to back it up.
And since there’s none, it has to be Plan B.
All this talk about how Islam preserved Hellenic learning, is complete balderdash when you consider that the Greek fathers of the Orthodox Church, fluent at least in their own language and proud of their own heritage, would have worked to preserve the great works of Greek philosophy and mathermatics, whatever their views on the merits of the racier literature of Aristophanes. This is simple common sense. The tremendous prologue of St John’s Gospel attests to the influence of Greek thought on the Gospels and it should be noted that the Gospels were written in Greek. No less a figure than Pope Benedict has pointed out that for intellectual Christians Greek philosophy seems like a Fifth Gospel. The apologetic core of Christianity, having to deal with the nature of the Trinity, the Incarnation and the unfolding of God’s plan of salvation through History, of necessity required that intelectuals be able to parse subtle and abstruse arguments. Even in the mundane material realm, the Europeans by the time of the Crusades had mastered long distance warfare, international finance and their armed tactics were always a match for the Saracens; for that is what it took to sustain the Crusades for nearly two hundred years. All this is made clear in God’s Battalions by Rodney Stark. Its about time that the slanderous legends about brutish Europeans and Islamic fashionistas, mostly originating from those who have an axe to grind against the Catholic Church were laid to rest.
epi/5; had to stop reading down the thread and remark on that comment –last para is like ringing a bell –
Eggplant,
I do claim that Islam was designed either through accident or Darwinian social evolution to effectively compel Christians and Jews to convert to Islam and prohibit Moslem populations from converting back to their earlier religions.
That needs far more elaboration it you are going to venture it at all. Much of what you say about the impact of Islam on the productive capacity of a society meshes well with what I have said, especially my prior point of disagreement with ETAB. The difficulty in getting people to depart Islam is a known condition and does need explanation. Your argument about compelling Jewish or Christian conversions by theological design is merely an assertion. An argument could be made that there was no intention to have mass conversions, especially of Jews and Christians. More likely they were originally intended to be a captive populace for the parasitic Ummah of nomadic warriors to live off of. Islam expanded because conversions created a shortage of taxable victims.
Wretchard,
Thank you. My intent was to have people read Atheist Secular Humanists as including emotional Marxists. This is old ground that others have explored in the Club better than I have. If I remember it was pointed out how State Shinto can be seen as in a group with Islam and Marxism while another could be said to include Judaism, Christianity and Buddhism.
Any luck with the spam/moderation list on the last thread? Never mind, my bad it is there.
Blast From the Past @ said:
“Read Bernard Lewis, you have it almost exactly backwards. Islamic Civilization did achieve great power and displayed great wealth but that involved surprisingly little creativity on the part of people raised to think according to the precepts of Islam. Many of the early achievements were derivative from subjugated cultures. Others were from individuals during the period of expansion. Society was more flexible while the controlling and exploitative aspects could be directed outward. Once checked Islam imploded intellectually as the engine of repression turned in.”
Yes, the Caliphate did implode intellectually. Whether it was due to the Turks, the Mongol invasion or Islam’s intrinsic faults is a matter of debate. An important personality from Islamic civilization is:
Muḥammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī
al-Khwārizmī lived from 780-850 AD. His big claim to fame was discovering the complete solution of the quadratic equation. He got the ball rolling for modern day algebra. There’s a direct intellectual thread that starts with him and ends with Issac Newton. al-Khwārizmī was Persian but appeared on the scene relatively early in the history of Islam (the Arabs conquered Egypt in 641). The example of al-Khwārizmī tends to support Blast From the Past’s assertion that Islam’s major achievements were the result of individual achievement during the period of expansion. However that same sort of argument could be made about the Renaissance, i.e. it was the consequence of individual achievements, e.g. Michelangelo, Da Vinci, Galileo, etc.
An example of beautiful Arab architecture can be seen in the following link:
http://bp0.blogger.com/_xjAs6KrJCNY/Rszc7A4KSxI/AAAAAAAAADw/MHoIQrztTdk/s1600-h/Qaitbay-elev.jpg
I’ve toured this building (Qaitbay’s mausoleum/mosque/madressa) and it’s one of my favorites (up there with the Lincoln Cathedral, the Kiyomizu Temple in Kyoto and the Aghia Sophia). Qaitbay was alive from 1468-1496 (shortly after the Ottoman Empire got up and running).
Blast From the Past,
I looked in spam and moderated for something hung up. Did a search on your name. Nothing. I can’t find it.
Eggplant,
Thank you. A significant difference IMHO is that European Civilization had its greatest period of physical and intellectual expansion in the period after it was devastated by hundreds of years of barbarian invasion, the loss of core intellectual resources to the Moslems, and the Black Death that wiped out a third of the population. Islam’s greatest achievements were in the period before any similar adversity was encountered. This does not minimize the destruction of their invading hordes, such as Timur the Lame’s signature contribution to architecture, the pyramid of skulls.
My thesis is that difference in results reflects a difference in the underlaying religious/cultural systems.
Wretchard,
My bad, it showed up. Sorry.
It also ignores the many Greeks who moved to the places the eventually became Italy both before and after the Ottoman conquest of Constantinople … and who took their philosophy etc with them.
Eggplant (57)
The lovely Arab architecture was made possible by the concept of the pendentive, from the Hagia Sophia.
Blast (59)
Props for Bernard Lewis. Indeed, the Black Death shifted the labor/capital equation in Europe, making investment worthwhile. Thus the entire feudal hierarchy had an interest in the prosperity of levels below
Meanwhile, the Arab rulers rewarded retainers with limited tenure rights to tax receipts, not ownership. Hence the “tragedy of the commons” on a grand scale. Milk it, don’t invest. And when the Portuguese, Dutch et al bypassed the Arab traders, Islam was destitute.
So the Enterprise and the Kersarge are heading for the coast of Libya.
Reporters questions on what they’ll do when they get their have been answered with the equivalent of “We are still trying to figure that out.”
Perhaps they’ll drop harshly worded leaflets from Sec. Clinton in Italian?
Meanwhile back at the Raunch, The Wisconsin Governor has given the wayward Dims a deadline to get back before the firest 1000 layoff notices go out. I wonder on who and on what basis will the layoff be. Perhaps the Capital Police?
Robert…
They could still fall back on enslavement, and ransoms…
Balderdash. Most of the heavy lifting was done by the dhimmis. Mostly Jews. The Alhambra was designed by a Jew whose master, a Moon-god worshipper, claimed the credit. As for most of the works of mathematics also.
Your boy Quaitbay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qaitbay) was a Circassian slave “…and was purchased by the ninth sultan Barsbay (AD 1422 to 1438) before being freed by the eleventh sultan Jaqmaq (AD 1438 to 1453).”
Maybe the history you think know is a bit incomplete.
blert @ 63,
Are you talking about the Wisconsin government unions?
Eggplant, you need to read Thomas Cahill’s ” How the Irish Saved Civilization”
Just to throw in my two cents, during the Umayyad dynasty, Arabic was still not a written language, and original nomads that ruled Islam had no administrative training. Naturally they turned to the conquered Greeks from Asia Minor and the conquered Persians to administer Islam. The Ummayads were also considered by many to be insufficiently devout in the ways of Mohammad and could have allowed foreign ideas to germinate. It’s not hard to see how the influence of Greek and Perian scholarship could have had an effect on Islam at that time. I’ve also read that the rise of Abbasids and the overthrow of the Umayyad dynasty from 756 onward was in part a reaction to influence and power of the non-arab greeks and persians in the Islamic bureaucracy at that time.
Many here have probably read Whittaker Chambers’ “Witness” already, but for those who have not, I highly recommend it. The book’s introduction contains IMO the best explanation I have read of the appeal of Communism. Reading Chambers’ description makes it that much more apparent why, despite what ought to be deal-breaking differences, Leftists and Islamists end up on the same side of the fence, namely, the anti-American, anti-Western, anti-Judeo-Christian one. Call it the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact of our times. They really should be at each other’s throats (and would, if they were the only two standing), but they have each judged it in their respective best interests to make war on us first.
Communism, according to Chambers, appeals because it is “a vision and a faith …. The world outside Communism, the world in crisis, lacks a vision and a faith.”
From Chambers:
The revolutionary heart of Communism is not the theatrical appeal: “Workers of the world, unite. You have nothing to lose but your chains. You have the world to gain.” It is a simple statement of Karl Marx, further simplified for handy use: “Philosophers have explained the world; it is necessary to change the world.” Communists are bound together by no secret oath. The tie that binds them across the frontiers of nations, across barriers of langugage and differences and education, in defiance of religion, morality, truth, law, honor, the weaknesses of the body and the irresolutions of the mind, even unto death, is a simple conviction: It is necessary to change the world. Their power, whose nature baffles the rest of the world, because in large measure the rest of the world has lost that power, is the power to hold convictions and to act on them. It is the same power that moves mountains; it is also an unfailing power to move men. Communists are that part of mankind which has recovered the power to live or die — to bear witness — for its faith.
Substitute “Islam” for “Communism” and “… to make the world submit to Allah” for ” … to change the world,” and you have an almost perfect symmetry of motivation and behavior between the two groups.
Both groups are fanatical true believers. Both are willing to use, and have a history of using, the most brutal violence to achieve their ends.
Chambers says that the revolutionary vision of Communism is “Man without God.” That’s why Communism would *seem* to be antithetical to Islam. And would be, if Islam were truly about “Man with God.” Except it’s not. “You shall know them by their fruits.” Islam’s fruit drips with human blood. Same with Communism.
But, as has been observed on BC many times before, you can’t beat something with nothing. Conservatives and traditional Western Civ are caught in the pincer movement of two fanatical, violent ideologies whose power derives from their very fanaticism. They are driven by their faith.
What are we driven by?
RagnarD,
But there is a movie at the Hall of Science, starring Ben Kingsley (a Quaker birth name Krishna Bhanji) called “1001 Inventions and the Library of Secrets” that says that Moslems invented everything, and it’s for the children. He once played Gandhi and the good guy in Schindler’s List, so it must be true.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1361600/USS-Enterprise-way-Libya-U-S-Navy-repositions-warships-ahead-sanctions-proposed-fly-zone.html
t @ 62: So the Enterprise and the Kersarge are heading for the coast of Libya. Reporters questions on what they’ll do when they get their have been answered with the equivalent of “We are still trying to figure that out.”
yeah. well, what were they doing before? article suggests hunting pirates. that requires an aircraft carrier and an amphibious assault ship? yeah right.
imagine Obambus in charge of all this stuff. Or Hillary. Ow my head.
The Copts are required by Sharia law to pay dhimma to the faithful. The unauthorized wall inhibited the local bedouin from collecting their rightful due. The boldness exhibited by the Copts when evading their taxes simply could not be tolerated.
The practioners of this impecable logic freed themselves from responsibility through the adaption of what they perceive as Allah’s moral code.
Video found, Admiral Obama doing a Table Top Exercise to plot his Grand Strategy.
Charles — The first problem is that the central mystery of the church is a human sacrifice.
I believe that is better expressed as self-sacrifice.
One of the confounding problems when it comes to this question of who gets the credit for ‘saving’ Greek literature is a failure to understand the Romans. The Romans didn’t “do” Greek. They did Latin. The number of Romans well versed in Greek literature was vanishingly small at any given point in time during the entirety of the history of the Western Empire. A very tiny cadre of Rome’s foremost hyper-educated men of letters knew Greek literature well in Greek.
That’s not to say the average educated Roman didn’t have any exposure to Greek thought, but the sum toto of his knowledge usually came through translation. Heck, even a work as important to the Roman of Late Antiquity as the Bible was known only through the Vulgate, St. Jerome’s Latin translation. To this day that Vulgate retains the imprimatur of the Roman Church as the authoritive version of the Bible.
It’s like this: do you know Tolstoy? Rimbaud? Goethe? Cervantes? Yes, you do, in the same way the typical Roman knew of the Greeks. Through translation.
Tacitus is a major Roman historian. Most scholars consider him to be the best Roman historian. Romans of his day and thereafter agreed with this opinion. Everybody always thought Tacitus was a treasure. And we’re lucky to know his works, because we have exactly one set of copied manuscripts of his work. That’s all that survived. ONE. That is the level of disaster that befell the Western Empire when it collapsed. Scholarly works, especially when the inflation-adjusted price of one hand-copied “page” approached $14.00, were simply not that common.
We almost lost our written ties to classical civilization of the Western Empire in the Mad Max World that emerged in its vacuum, even for just the Latin writers not to mention the Greek ones.
By the Early Middle Ages, almost nobody in Europe could read ancient Greek. Yes, some of those guys were in Ireland and in England, places far removed from the epicenter of the civilizational bomb that went off in Italy. Almost all that was known of ancient Greek thought was known through Latin translations and Latin commentaries of Plato, who was popular thanks mostly to St. Augustine. St. Augustine did not know Aristotle, and also quite typically, could not even read ancient Greek. He was your typical Latinist. He got Plato through translation.
Yes, it was via the Muslims that Western Europe got re-introduced to Aristotle, and this took until the time of Thomas Aquinas. Because Arabic translations of the Greek got translated to Latin!
How in the heck was this possible, especially given that Arabic as a written language was an extreme latecomer?
Could it be because of the sword? Because Muslims piled out of the desert conquered Greek-speaking lands? They did get to Aristotle first. By conquest, not because they’d developed a long-standing appreciation and centuries full of intellectual debate and commentary about the old Greek ideas, as the West had done before the cataclysm.
Muslim attitudes towards non-muslim writings were almost consistently harsh. Normal practice was to burn them.
The muslim connection to the Hellenic knowledge is dubious. In a pattern now something chronic, palimpsests passed down the years in Christian monasteries wherein their scribes re-used the ancient pages to craft additional copies of Christian tract.
It was the Eastern Roman Empire that stood as the refuge for ancient texts. It had the dry, mild climate. It also had pack-rat monks who just stored them as vellum. And since Anatolia was home to many, many Greeks you had your best shot at translation, too.
Algebra is considered Arabic in origin — generally. Likewise the modern arithmetic is considered Arabic. However, it now appears that the ultimate source for these was India. The Hindus developed the core of modern algebra going so far as to introduce the zero. Not being in any kind of position to dispute Arab claims, the West has incorrectly lauded the muslims for what the Hindus had done.
——
Shifting blame and taking undue credit has been a muslim vice forever and ever. Some of the tales out of Iraq on this score sear the conscience. The scale of duplicity destined for prompt exposure seems to know no bounds.
Based upon the muslim track record and absolute nullity of ‘achievement’ when left to their own devices tells me that further research will impeach all claims of greatness.
And how is it that the most accomplished muslims are never Arabs? By their habits, morals and norms they function like neolithic man: might-makes-right politics at every turn; every alpha a tribal chieftain. Islam is more of the Neolithic than even the 7th Century.
Cowboy,
Good points. One small adjustment. You describe the ignorance of the Equestrian and Senatorial classes in the decaying West of the 4th and 5th centuries. Earlier, certainly in the 1st and 2nd centuries Roman aristocrats were educated by Greek slaves and often spent time in the East, where the common language was always Greek. The Court in Constantinople used Latin for longer than many realize but they switched over as the West collapsed. My thesis is that absent the Arab conquests the Byzantine return to the West would have proceeded and the revival of learning might have happened earlier, but without an independent Latin identity.
Over time the West gained by having a distant and ignored Emperor. Ceasaropapism did not take root and the Church was freed. That could have been disastrous if Iranian style Papal theocracy had become entrenched but fortunately we lucked into the compromise that gave the most hope for the later development of pluralism. So despite the real risks and costs we might have been guided by some unseen hand to the best outcome.
You can add to your list of the nearly lost that only one copy of the Talmud survived intact from later dangers. In the East we lost all but one poet from the Old Comedy and have a handful of plays from just three dramatists of the Old Tragedy. Lost were hundreds of plays, the complete works by authors who we know defeated in competition the men whose work we have. We are like drunks looking for clues under a street light because that is all we can see. Destruction continues apace. There were films made within a lifetime that are gone.
#74 blert,
Yes, that’s right–most of that mathematics attributed to Arabs comes from the Hindus.
That video really makes my blood boil–what a bunch of high-on-themselves bastards those Egyptian troops are. Or, maybe the real culprit is who’s giving the orders? The fact that the West seems “embarrassed” by the plight of the Copts is really, really disturbing. We should be whipping Egypt into shape on the topic, not cowering like puppies.
Robert Arvanitis @ 61 said:
“The lovely Arab architecture was made possible by the concept of the pendentive, from the Hagia Sophia.”
It seems that most Turkish architecture was derived from the Hagia Sophia. This is immediately apparent when one tours Istanbul and different variations of the same building keep reappearing. However most Greek Orthodox churches also seem to be scaled down variations of the Hagia Sophia. It was a pretty good design and worth repeating.
RagnarD @ 64 said:
“Your boy Qaitbay … was a Circassian slave …”
All of the Mamluk sultans started out as slaves. It was arguably the world’s weirdest political system, i.e. the absolute leader of Egypt always started out as a slave brought in from outside of Egypt, who then work his way up through the ranks from zero. It was the ultimate meritocracy. An Arab Egyptian was probably the actual architect of Qaitbay’s mausoleum/madressa. The Mamluks were all trained from birth to be soldiers (mainly cavalry). Qaitbay’s mausoleum is the prettiest in Cairo’s Northern Cemetery. Barquq’s mausoleum is the second best in my humble opinion. I should mention that the Northern Cemetery is a giant slum and dangerous to visit. Only go their if you’re with a local or part of an organized tour.
Unsk @ 66 said:
“you need to read Thomas Cahill’s ”How the Irish Saved Civilization””
I’ve listened to the book tape (it’s good for long road trips). The Christian monk who most influenced pagan Germany was not an Irishman but an Englishman. His name was Boniface. He was active around 680 AD. There’s alot of stuff in Fulda dedicated to him. The ancient pagan Germans were plant worshipers (the ultimate tree huggers). Boniface made his reputation with the Germans when he cut down an oak tree that they were worshiping. Supposedly the tradition of the Christmas tree comes from that event. The ancient practice of worshiping plants sneaks into other German Christian traditions. There’s a thousand year old rose plant in the cathedral of Hildesheim. Supposedly the local German’s were worshiping that rose before they were Christianized. I saw that rose plant when I toured Hildesheim cathedral and it was easily the most beat up rose I ever saw. If you go into a German church in northern Germany, you’ll typically see a statue of the virgin Mary standing on the lunar crescent. What does the virgin Mary have to do with the Moon? Nothing at all, because it’s not really the virgin Mary. It’s actually Frau Holle, the Earth Mother. The clever Irish/English monks combined the Earth Mother myth with the virgin Mary. The ancient Germans could continue to worship Frau Holle and still be good Christians.
Unsk also said:
“Arabic was still not a written language, and original nomads that ruled Islam had no administrative training. Naturally they turned to the conquered Greeks from Asia Minor and the conquered Persians to administer Islam.”
The Arabs have had a long relationship with Greek civilization. The ancient Arabs were part of the Nabataean and Sabaean kingdoms. The Sabaean coins were based upon the Athenian Attic standard. The Sabaean coins had Athena on the obverse and the Athenian owl on the reverse.
Cowboy @ 73 said:
“Tacitus is a major Roman historian. Most scholars consider him to be the best Roman historian. … And we’re lucky to know his works, because we have exactly one set of copied manuscripts of his work. That’s all that survived. ONE.”
Many of the ancient texts are based upon single manuscripts. An incredible amount of information was lost during the Dark Ages.
I was told an interesting story by a classical scholar that it is possible some of the old classics might be recovered. Apparently it was very hip in ancient Rome to have a private library. Many of the well-to-do Romans had significant private libraries in their country villas. Many of these country villas were near Mt. Vesuvius and were covered with ash during the same disaster that destroyed Pompeii. Ancient library papyrus scrolls were sometimes stored in large terracotta vases that could protect the papyrus from the volcanic ash. Some treasure hunters were exploring an ancient villa and thought they had hit the jackpot by discovering a cache of ancient scrolls. Unfortunately, these ancient scrolls were all copies of the same work, i.e. an obscure philosopher named Philodemus of Gadara. This was the equivalent of some future archaeologist finding a seal shipping container with 10,000 copies of the comic book “The Adventures of Sylvester the Cat and Tweety Bird”. The hope is that there are other villas to be discovered with more diversified libraries.
As an Eastern Rite Catholic, I appreciate whenever the plight of Middle Eastern Christians is brought to the public’s attention and this was a particularly good piece.
I do take one exception in this article, the comment Richard made regarding Italy… actually Italy and France have spoken out regarding the persecution of Christians in the Middle East … unlike nominally Catholic Belgium, Spain, Luxemburg and sadly Ireland who recently nixed specific diplomatic verbiage introduced by Italy & France in an EU communique regarding the persecution of Christians.
72. MSO
Charles — The first problem is that the central mystery of the church is a human sacrifice.
I believe that is better expressed as self-sacrifice.
…………
Your play on words is the reason for the exactitude of the Nicean creed.
Pete
“actually Italy and France have spoken out regarding the persecution of Christians in the Middle East”
sorry France has, in the beginning of january, after the massacre in a egyptian Copt church, our Copt church in Marseille was threatened of the same attack, and some political voices said that we ought to make a new crusade
OT:
Blert, Buddy, et. al. Did you see the gopher that poked its head above ground today on Drudge? (Sorry, don’t know how to embed)
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/feb/28/financial-terrorism-suspected-in-08-economic-crash/?page=1
I cannot help but noticing that some of the most strident critics of the Bush Doctrine, including our Dear Leader and most of his party, are now saying what a stinker we all knew Khadaffi is and are thinking up military ways to hasten his departure from the scene. And the “anti-war” movement, human shields, Bush giant paper mache head makers and other assorted political theater types are nowhere to be found. C’mon Cindy, lets go Medea, where are you Sean? Mr. Moore? Ms Corrie? (Oh sorry!) Sen Kerry? Beuhler? Anyone? I mean its not like Khadaffi is Saddam Hussein or anything!
And what about the “financial terrorists” from within the US, or do we call those “financial vampires”?
Yeah, I noticed Soros and Obama didn’t make the cut.
And what about the “financial terrorists” from within the US, or do we call those “financial vampires”?
The proper name is Goldman Sachs.
mainman,
Embedding is simple, you want the “a href=” code. In my example just replace ” ( ” or ” ) ” with “≺” or “≻” but not in quotation marks, except that you use the quotes around the URL. Getting the angle symbol to display is a major problem since html Will read it as a command. They are the Precedes and Follows symbols over the comma and period on your keyboard.
Did you see the gopher (a href=”http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/feb/28/financial-terrorism-suspected-in-08-economic-crash/?page=1″)that poked his head out of a hole?(/a)
Remember to close your tags by placing a right angle ” > ” at the end of the URL and also to close after the title with /a enclosed by angles.
Done right you get this;
Did you see the gopher that poked his head out of a hole?
Re. Cowboy’s #49 entry:
Augustine was not killed by the Vandals when Hippo was sacked. Rather, he died of natural cuases in 430 during the seige. The city fell shortly thereafter.
Of Liberal Iggy’s O’Harvard buddy and his running ‘rats.
Feast your eyes on this:
>>>> “By the following Monday, eight of the 14 had gone 30 miles northeast to the two-hotel town of Harvard”.
The gods are laughing & rolling in the corn fields.
Bringing in the sheaves with the TEA Party’s posse.
They are cutting off O’s tail with the carving knife: See how they run.
““Why are you running?””
…-
“Cornstalked: As the 14 Wisconsin Democrats run, meet the Illinois Tea Party activists giving chase
To say that 14 Wisconsin Democrats are “on the lam” in Illinois is an understatement. Relentlessly hounded by Illinois Tea Party members, they are truly, on the run.
No matter which podunk border town the senators try to hide in, they are running all the time thanks to highly effective efforts of conservative activists who have streamlined their “search party” by utilizing Facebook, email blasts and quick video posts. Who knew the Tea Party would be so good at bounty hunting 2.0?
On Thursday, The Missing 14 unsubtly crashed the Clock Tower Resort’s Chocoholic Frolic in Rockford, Ill. David Hale, the Rockford Tea Party, and his camera began stalking the resort pestering the senators. By Saturday, some of the Missing 14 had skipped over to the city’s Holiday Inn — and were reportedly seen at Hooters having a last supper of sorts — when Hale waltzed into the hotel’s lobby and confronted them with his camera and questions like, “Senators! Why won’t go home and do your job.”
Probably aware that a posse of 14 pasty bureaucrats will stick out in a crowd, the senators did what any fugitive chain gang would do: They cut the links and went in separate directions. One did the smart thing and disappeared into the polished back alleys of the Windy City, where only the New York Times could find him.
By the following Monday, eight of the 14 had gone 30 miles northeast to the two-hotel town of Harvard (Pop. 9,000ish) thinking it might be a good place to “hide.” It took just one tip from a “concerned citizen,” however, before a few amateurs Illinois activist descended upon the hotel, causing enough trouble commotion for the senators to quickly pack it up.
Mary Alger, the coordinator of the Crystal Lake Tea Party was was grocery shopping when she got the tip. Dropping off the produce, making a quick sign and skirting 15mins Northwest to Harvard, she met up with “Doc,” a member of the Northern Illinois Tea Party who holds down a full-time job when he’s not hunting Democrats. Lori White, a Spring Grove resident, showed up after responding to a Facebook post on the Rockford Tea Party site asking if anyone near Harvard was willing to drop by the hotel, preferably with a video camera.
The hotel called the cops on “Doc” and Mary because they were trespassing, so Doc skedaddled and at a nearby McDonald’s Mary waited for White to arrive into town. Unfortunately, White got there just in time to see four senators piled into a tiny Mazda behind her — the make, model and license plate she’d gotten after responding to the Facebook post. As she fumbled for her video camera, the senators sped off, up Highway 23. Though she tried to follow, White eventually lost them. Not that she’ll stop helping out in the other bounty hunters.
Meanwhile, a local paper published a picture of one of them Democrats. Northern Ill Tea Party board member Joe Terrell had not only set up a “Flee Party Tracker” Facebook page but was able to do some magic thanks to information sharing and basic internet research.
“Based on that picture, a list of Democratic donors and Google Earth we were able to identify where it was taken,” said Terrell. And with that, he posted the citizens equivalent to what the police like to refer to as an APB — an All Points Bulletin.
For the past week and a half, this has been the regular rhyme and flow of both the Wisconsin state senators and the amateur bounty hunters tracking them down. Each time the senators find a place to hide, some local resident sends a quick Facebook note or records a few minutes of footage so that tea party members around Northern Illinois can coordinate confrontations no more dangerous than a slightly pushy reporter asking, “Why are you running?””
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2681818/posts
http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/archives/016201.html#comments
Phil Gramm of Texas was a prophet, “People will be hunting Democrats with dogs.”
Cowboy @ 73 wrote: “The number of Romans well versed in Greek literature was vanishingly small at any given point in time during the entirety of the history of the Western Empire. A very tiny cadre of Rome’s foremost hyper-educated men of letters knew Greek literature well in Greek.”
I’m curious: are you saying that Greek influence no longer had the same cache’ in the Empire that it did in the Republic? Certainly in the earlier era, philhellenes among the movers-and-shakers (e.g. Scipio Africanus, who wrote his memoirs in Greek, and his “grandson,” Scipio Aemilianus, who pal-ed around with Polybius) were common enough to attract Cato the Elder’s baleful gaze. And was Cicero such an exception to the rule?
I always thought of Romans who spoke/read Greek as analogous to, say, an 18th Century British gentleman who read Latin, or a 19th Century Russian who conversed in French and German. Am I overestimating how bilingual the educated elite was in Rome?
Sertorius @ 91 said:
“I always thought of Romans who spoke/read Greek as analogous to, say, an 18th Century British gentleman who read Latin, or a 19th Century Russian who conversed in French and German. Am I overestimating how bilingual the educated elite was in Rome?”
I believe Sertorius is correct. It is my understanding that most educated Romans tried to learn Greek. It was very trendy amongst wealthy Romans to have Greek sculpture and artifacts on display in their country villas and speak Greek at home. The Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius wrote his “Meditations” in Greek. “Meditations” was actually his private diary and never intended for publication. Marcus Aurelius was a beautiful human being who had the role of Emperor thrust upon him. Reading “Meditations” is like drinking from a clear running mountain spring.
Off topic, interesting financial links:
http://www.oftwominds.com/blogmar11/counterfeit2-11.html
http://www.gainspainscapital.com/
We’re approaching a branch point and events are just about to get “interesting”.
Thanks, Blast. And thanks to you and others for the historical perspective, above.
Wonderful fellow, Marcus Aurelius(if you saw “Gladiator”), apart from the persecution of Christians…
This from wiki:
“Belonging to the later Stoical school, which believed in an immediate absorption after death into the Divine essence, Marcus Aurelius considered the Christian doctrine of the immortality of the soul, with its moral consequences, as vicious and dangerous to the welfare of the state…
One of the best-recorded acts of violence against Christians in Marcus Aurelius’ reign is the persecution in Lyons, which occurred in 177 AD.”
Robert Arvanitis @ 94:
I suggest that you read “Meditations”.
B@90: Phil Gramm of Texas was a prophet
Phil “Stop your Whining” Gramm??
The Pentagon report described in the Washington Times link above is a (weak and ultimately) futile attempt to gin up support for the Fed audit, which is currently being shepherded by Lone Cowboy Ron Paul, now that the more credible voice of Judd Gregg has dropped out.
That dog won’t bark. Noise from the stadium won’t do it. In fact nothing will. It’s too late.
The Saudi stock market just collapsed by 7%, refer to:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/93e4bd68-42e7-11e0-8b34-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1FJm7uvHh
The fan is spinning up and there’s a bucket full of poop right next to it.
I just checked the above link and it has spam issues. Refer to it through Drudge Report:
http://www.drudgereport.com/
Eggplant (95):
I have, admittedly in the John Jackson (Oxford) translation. Despite the surname, I am fluent in demotic but not classical Greek.
Yes he has admirable thoughts – “you do not mourn being a certain height or certain weight; why mourn being only certain years?” (or that effect).
Nonetheless, a creature of his time, as were our (slave-owning) founding fathers, and just as we shall no doubt appear to our distant progeny. Thus tempered enthusiasm is appropriate.
–i don’t think the vandals ever actually sacked cities –they mainly just do minor property damage late at night then go on home before their parents wake up.
Anyhoo, re the extremely tardy study on the financial terrorism of naked shorting and how it collapsed the TooBigToFails stock values in September 2008 –thus allowing the Obams to win the election AND take over during a crisis he could exploit AND blame on his predecessor, take a gander at this (and then research it yoself if you have doubt about it):
((begin excerpt:
…Deep Capture has reviewed evidence showing that little Penson Financial and one other relatively unknown firm were by far the biggest traders in financial stocks in the first nine months of last year, handling more than 80 percent of volume. To repeat, Penson Financial, a little firm in Dallas, Texas, and one other relatively small firm handled by far the biggest volume of trading in the stock of all those big banks that collapsed last year, leading to the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression. When it came to clearing trades in financial stocks, Penson was bigger than Goldman, bigger than Merrill, bigger than every major brokerage on Wall Street.
We do not know for certain that the trading through Penson was naked short selling. We know only that naked short selling accounted for much of the overall trading last fall in companies like Lehman Brothers. And we know that a preponderance of the overall trading went through Penson. Perhaps Penson carefully weeded out the naked short sellers, in which case it handled almost all of the trading in financial stocks except for naked short selling. But if Taibbi’s video is any indication, Penson was certainly willing to locate stock that did not exist.
If I have anything to add to Taibbi’s terrific reporting, it is this: Penson Financial’s vice president in charge of stock clearing (that is, the head of the division that appears to have located stock that did not exist) is a man named Christopher Sandel. From 1985 to 1995, Sandel was a top executive at Adler Coleman, best known for being the clearing firm to the Genovese Mafia family.
Adler Coleman famously went bust when its top customer, the Genovese-controlled brokerage Hanover Sterling, self-imploded in one of the greatest naked short selling scandals of all time. Several traders tied to the Gambino crime family were charged with naked short selling companies that were underwritten by Hanover. That the Genovese Mafia brokers at Hanover were not charged in this case seems odd, because the most likely scenario is that the Genovese underwrote hapless companies, pumped their stock prices, and then called in the Gambinos to vaporize the companies, with everybody profiting on the way down.
Anyway, when some of America’s biggest financial companies collapsed under a barrage of short selling last fall, an enormous chunk of that trading was being cleared by a fellow who used to work for a company that seemed to specialize in clearing trades for the Mafia. Should this concern us? Might the Mafia have played some role in the collapse of the financial system? If I were more heavily armed, I would venture an opinion.
end excerpt))
Here’s more on the Septmber bank panic as well as the DTCC and related other items. Just scratching the surface.
Robert Arvanitis @ 98 said:
“Despite the surname, I am fluent in demotic but not classical Greek.”
One of my remaining life ambitions is to learn classical Greek. It’ll be humiliating because I’m terrible with foreign languages but I’m going to try anyway.
Lucky Luciano ran Baltimore while Pelosi’s father Thomas D’Alessandro was mayor. Luciano, along with Meyer Lanski, “supervised” the Five Families comprising the Italian-American Mafia – of which the Genovese Family was (is?) the largest.
Tito – you’re right. I think I confused Augustine’s death with someone else’s – remembered an injury at a wall during a seige.
Sertonius – the parallel you draw between the educated 18th century aristocrat and the old Roman aristocrat is apt. I’d say the old Romans were both smaller in number and also more fragile as a group.
If you’ll indulge me, I’ll elaborate my position. The “action” in the surging Roman Republic was public life, i.e., urban affairs and administration. The elites of that time schooled their children accordingly, the heavy emphasis of a typical Roman education being “rhetoric”, military affairs, engineering, and law. But predominatly rhetoric.
The Latin language betrays the Roman mind. It’s a concise language with an economical vocabulary, with large and complex grammatical structures best described as “architectural” in nature, and chocked full of militarist idioms.
(Warning, classist pun!) On the other hand, we have the Greeks. Ancient Greek has a large, sprawling vocabulary and a simpler more accommodating grammar. It is far more irregular than Latin allows and has a broader range of idioms.
Latin exhibits the practical mind, Greek is for the dreamer. Here are actual sentences from the first day of my Latin classes, translated into English: “Britain is an island. It’s big. It’s not small. The inhabitants of Britain are farmers.” Here are actual sentences from my first day of Ancient Greek: “The soul is deathless. A woman and the sea are equal in their anger. The golden rule is best.” It’s almost like a left side of the brain vs. right side of the brain kind of difference. A question arises about language and thought, and which is steering the wagon and which is pulling the wagon, but either way it goes Latin reflects a journey down one road, via the weight of its own momentum, and Greek reflects another.
Now, to the historical case. Most young Roman elites with their rhetoric focused education emerged with an awareness of Greek thought and varying capacities of facility with the Ancient Greek language, which was ancient even by then. The Greek on the streets and in the slave quarters of the villa, and of (eventually) the New Testament, was Koine Greek, a dialect related to Ancient Greek fairly closely, but not Plato’s Greek. A veritable handful out of this set of Romans were truly deeply aware of Greek literature and thought. The case is laid out early on by Lucretius in his amazing epic poem to philosophy, “De Rerum Natura”.
The opening of that poem declares its purpose. It is to show Lucretius’ patron, Memmius, and by extension the wider body of Latin readership, the quite foreign Greek ideas behind Epicureanism. Shortly after this declaration, Lucretius slams Latin, calling it a “pauper language”, and apologizes in advance for having to work with it. The ideal medium would seem to be original Greek. So, why was Latin necessary, then? Why couldn’t he have just written it in Greek? Because he was trying to reach Romans. Ergo, Latin.
Roman intellectuals and men of letters schooled in Greek, like Lucretius, were to be found in places just like you found Lucretius: hangers on of the rich and powerful. They were tutors, they were entertainers and wits, they were show-toys of prestige. This dependence made being a man of letters not a good place to be, especially when the emperors came. There always were damn few of them.
Above, Eggplant mentions the finding of Philodemus’ papryi in Herculaneum, a city destroyed along with Pompeii when Vesuvius erupted. Eggplant jokingly compares this discovery to a comic book discovery, to great effect. But Philodemus was no comic book writer. This library was probably Philodemus’ own library, since Philodemus came from Herculaneum and it prominently featured his work. His star pupil was one Virgilius Publius Naso, or Vergil, Rome’s foremost literary immortal and Dante’s guide through the Inferno. “What a bit of luck!” you might say, that this one obscure library was so connected to greatness. But really luck had nothing to do with it. The chances are if you found one Golden Age intellectual’s library, as what happened in Herculaneum, you touched them all. It was an exceedingly small band. The bit of luck was finding it in the first place, everything else falls out from there.
To get a handle on the smallness and fragility of Rome’s intellectual band you can look at their output as a metric on their health. The Golden Age of Latin literature spans a very short time. It is divided into two parts, the Ciceronian and the Augustan, going from Cicero to Ovid. Most all of the players knew each other since their lives in a small pond overlapped. They lived a life, like Lucretius’ life, dependent on patronage, and this made the scene fragile. Augustus was a good emperor for them, for he strove to maintain appearances, but upon the ascension of Tiberius all pretensions were set aside and the reality of the Imperial Age roared away. The Golden Age died instantly, followed by the Silver Age of Latin literature which chronicled a slow burn down to Marcus Aurelius, whose death punctuated the run for Classical Latin.
This was a brutal downhill run for Roman intellectuals. Dependent upon patronage, any hint of political instability presented a huge problem. Worse, freedom died. What were you going to do, risk the emperor’s ire with your writings? And a Catch-22 arose if you praised him, because then you’d have a lot of explaining to do the the rival who murdered the emperor and assumed the throne.
When the imperial court, for all practical purposes, went east to Constantinople, so did all the patronage. Rome settled back into a centuries long decline taking her intellects with her.
The tragic plight of the last great intellectual, Boethius, is telling. Boethius’ patron was Theodoric the Great, an Ostrogoth who had assumed power previously reserved for Roman Emperors of the West. Boethius was the court’s wit, tutor, and bon-vivant, until he fell out of favor and found himself imprisoned. Seeing the writing on the wall for the intellectual tradition he represented, he undertook a two-part project.
The first part was writing his masterpiece, “The Consolation of Philosophy”, which summarized and lionized Hellenistic thought in Latinate form. Much like Lucretius project before it all began. The second part of his project was to translate as much Greek as he could into Latin before he died.
He never made it to Aristotle, it seems, before Theodoric took his life.
Medieval Europe knew Plato through Boethius, and got a window view of broader Greek thought through the Consolation.
But classical Roman learning died, practically alone, with Boethius talking to his imagined woman, Philosophy.
Let us pause a moment and thank Mr. Fernandez for hosting a blog, that goes well beyond forum, to become a salon.
Excellent posts draw interesting readers and learned, if widely wandering, comments.
Vandals in sandals caused real estate scandals and laid low mighty Rome.
Nothing changes.
psssssst…..
Holy Cow, Eggplant…..
If overtherainbo sees these posts, we’ll get 40 pages about the evils of Islam!
Don’t get ‘im started…
Cowboy/102–thanks a million; I love that kind of stuff!!
another step closer to the abyss
Catholic Critic of Blasphemy Law is Shot Dead in Pakistan
The Catholic Herald (UK) ^ | 3/2/11 | Ed West
Pakistan’s leading Catholic politician has been murdered in the capital Islamabad. Minorities minister Shahbaz Bhatti died this morning after gunmen opened fire on his car while travelling to work through a residential district. Mr Bhatti, 42, a leader of the ruling Pakistan People’s Party (PPP), had just left his home when at least two gunmen ambushed his car, police official Mohammad Iqbal said. He was rushed to the nearby Shifa hospital, but was dead on arrival. Mr Bhatti had received numerous death threats after calling for changes to the country’s controversial blasphemy law.
Cowboy @ 102 — Thanks for the (fascinating) elaboration: amazing the distance between the Virgil of the “Georgics” and Lucan’s “Pharsalia,” is it not? Another data point supporting how quickly systems/civilizations can fail…
#78 Eggplant
Late to the thread. Actually, we are pretty sure where there is one of those libraries fairly intact. But recovering those scrolls is being held up by the Italian government. One of the largest private mansions in ancient Rome was that of M. Calpernius Piso, Julius Caesar’s father in law. It was in the city of Herculaneum [now Ercolano] which was destroyed by the same eruption of Vesuvius that destroyed Pompeii. The mansion was the architectural model for the Getty Museum in California.
The Villa is a small distance away from the actual excavation of the city of Herculaneum, along what was then the coastline.
The Villa was broken into by looters centuries ago, and only sketchily excavated by archeologists. Among the things they have found were charcoal bundles. They turned out to be book scrolls, and what they found was apparently what was dropped by slaves trying to get them down to the beach where there may have been a ship. When it was attempted to unroll them, they shattered. Even the fragments are charcoal.
However, Brigham Young University has discovered a way using a form of CAT Scan and using spectrums outside visible light to digitally “unroll” the scrolls and image them. From the limited number of scrolls that they had to work from, they have increased the total number of recovered ancient texts by about 1/3.
Somewhere inside the Villa, covered by the pyroclastic flow that totally filled and buried the Villa; are the rooms that constituted the Library of the mansion. Given that the owner was one of the richest people in Rome, the library was probably somewhat larger than the average comic book store. They have not been found.
Excavations are expensive. As is the process of preserving what has already been excavated. From what I have heard, the Italian government is barring any search for the Library, demanding that whoever looks for it fund not only the excavation there, but also pay for the preservation of the entire Herculaneum dig, which is deteriorating rapidly. No one with deep enough pockets has come forward.
I hope that before I shuffle off this mortal coil, that they find and recover that Library.
#89 maz2
I saw that and some related articles a couple of days ago. In what I saw, aside from the “Tilted Kilt”, they have been caught several times at Hooters and similar establishments [after all, they ARE Democrats], and were chased off by TEA Party people who publicly confronted them. I have no problem with chasing the Fleebaggers; but I have suggested in a couple of venues that a different tactic be used. One or more TEA Party patriots should enter the establishment with concealed videophones/cameras pretending to be customers and keep an eye on them. If something untoward should happen between a Fleebagger and the waitresses, post a video of it, with editorial comment. It would immediately break their Narrative of being self-sacrificing martyrs; and adding an irate spouse or two into the mix probably would get at least one of them to head back north.
It is not entrapment, because they choose where they are holing up, and how they act while there. Just “transparency”.
No, I am not a nice person [*smile*]
Subotai Bahadur
Subotai,
What do you have against Hooters? Their nice girls, food is just so so but still.
#110 Blast From the Past
Absolutely nothing against Hooters. Mind you, being happily married and intending to stay so [the chances of finding anyone else who would put up with me being minuscule]; I’d have to concentrate on the food. And perhaps the beer, assuming that they have some decent brands [Coors should have been left inside the horse.].
However, these are Democrat politicians. If they choose to hang out there, it is not because of a taste for hot wings. This is the party who had two of its most senior senators known for making involuntary “waitress sandwiches” in the middle of restaurants in DC. They had the power and skills to get away with it [and since ex-Senator Dodd is the new chief lobbyist for the motion picture industry, I assume that they will now be starlet sandwiches. Although since Teddy has gone to his sulfurous reward, they will probably be open-faced.]. But these Wisconsin Senators are small-town amateurs. They are likely to be stupid and clumsy about it, especially if they are somewhere where hormones outweigh synapses. And if so, the tactical and strategic advantages of recording and broadcasting their misconduct make a two track policy [surveillance AND/OR public confrontation] the smart thing to do. Fun too. If they choose to act out, having them desperately fleeing not only their jobs in Madison, but also a bloody-minded, wronged wife seeking vengeance would be eminently popcorn-worthy.
Subotai Bahadur