Where are the carriers?
In a previous thread, Belmont Club Commenters, thinking on the crisis in Libya and the possible need to cover an evacuation there asked, “where are the carriers”?
103. Cowboy — Here’s where they are:
CVN Enterprise: North Arabian Sea
CVN Vinson: North Arabian Sea
CVN Lincoln: Singapore
CVN Washington: Japan
CVN Stennis: San Diego
CVN Truman: Norfolk
CVN Reagan: Eastern Pacific
CVN Bush: Western AtlanticNo carrier group in the Med. … 105. Blast From the Past — Cowboy, That means that 3, the Nimitz, Roosevelt and Eisenhower, are in overhaul and can’t get underway. Another 4, the Stennis, Truman, Reagan and Bush are either undergoing training and preparing to deploy or are recently returned and awaiting an overhaul.
And now ten retired British senior officers have asked, “where are the carriers?” According to the BBC the officers criticized the British government for not having an aircraft carrier to cover a possible operation, to which a defense spokesman replied, ‘why should we when the Americans are not?’ The British can’t field a carrier because they have nothing to field. On the other hand, the USN has no carrier in the region because for some reason, they’ve decided not to field.
A former field marshal, three generals and six admirals say the loss of Ark Royal and its fleet of Harrier jets has damaged Britain’s defence capabilities. … Defence Secretary Liam Fox has defended the “difficult decisions”. …
“None of our allies have seen fit to position an aircraft carrier off the coast of Libya as this is not the tool required for this task; there is no requirement for ground attack aircraft, but even if there were we would use our extensive regional basing and overflight rights,” he said.
But a retired US Admiral, James Lyons, writing in the Washington Times writes, “as a first order of business, we should reposition an aircraft carrier in the Mediterranean. The USS Enterprise and the USS Kearsarge, both in the Red Sea, and perhaps the USS Ponce as well, should be turned around to re-transit the Suez Canal and take a position off the coast of Libya.”
As the Enterprise and Kearsarge were leaving the Med, two Iranian warships were actually entering it, in a kind of revolving door act whose symbolism Teheran probably relished. The potential problem was obvious. As Bellum at the Stanford Review noted:
In terms of the Westerners still stuck in Libya, reportedly some 5,000-6,000 Europeans remain. Without a significant ground component in addition to the aerial units enforcing the putative no-fly zone, the intervening power would be setting up the mother of all hostage situations. Assorted tribes, Libyan military, and mercenaries could all respond by seizing these hapless foreigners as bargaining chips, human shields, and so forth.
And it was not just the Iranians. The Wall Street Journal reports that China has used the crisis to showcase its naval power. It also sent chartered ships and aircraft to evacuate 30,000 Chinese nationals stuck in Libya.
China has sent one of its most modern warships to protect vessels extracting thousands of its citizens from Libya, in the Asian power’s first naval operation in the Mediterranean Sea and its first deployment of military hardware in a civilian evacuation mission. The Chinese navy diverted the Xuzhou, a 4,000 ton missile frigate, from anti-piracy patrols off the coast of Somalia and dispatched it to the Libyan coast on Thursday, according to a statement on the Chinese Defense Ministry’s web site.
As the Chinese and Iranians were heading in, the US was perhaps coincidentally, heading out. But the West could get lucky and not be faced with a hostage situation at all. The trouble is, given the almost unbroken series of crises that have rocked the region and the world, luck is getting a little hard to rely on.
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You can’t help but ask in a situation like this: “what would Jimmy Carter do?”
Somebody might ask him.
Once were warriors.
ADE
I’d say goodbye to most of those 5,000-6,000 Europeans and whatever handful of other Westerners there remain in the future failed state known for now as Libya. Like the CIA “contractor,” Raymond Davis, left out to twist in the wind by Obama’s foreign policy, they’re doomed to be Eid al-Adha sacrifices …
“The British can’t field a carrier because they have nothing to field.”
I thought the UK Gov owned Airstrip One. Have they sold it?
How many of those foreigners are Americans?
Oops- 5000-6000 Yurpeons was it?
My bad. I thought for a moment people might need an evacuation, but surely not any of the saintly Yurpeons. They abhor violence, and are on the side of the poor oppressed Palestinians, etc.
Why could there be a problem?
Watching British culture disintegrate in real time is unsettling. Imagine hopping in your 1945 time machine to tell the Brits who survived WWII that it was all a big waste of blood and time. Their well educated grandchildren were going to give it all away for an aroma therapy session and an extra serving of foix gras, and call them xenophobic idiots while doing it.
Too bad we can’t use a carrier group to pound a little dose of reality and enduring common sense into the mushy brains that consider carbon a greater threat to civilization than their own indolence.
“Why should we, when the Americans are not?”
I think that cuts to the chase right there. Says everything about the situation that needs to be said. If America does not lead, no one will follow. If not us, who, if not now, when? If the first casualty of war is the truth, there still has to be someone to tell the truth to. The only altruistic people in the world are currently locked in a death match with community organizers, insatiable tax eaters and union thugs over control of our own country. The great, largely bipartisan effort we maintained to be the shining city on the hill is having a stake driven through its heart. The hammering starting about 1972 and is currently being played out in Madison, Denver, and the White House, where people who have plenty are petulantly whining for more from the only people who are capable of producing it. The “pay any price, bear any burden” Democrats are long gone, and unfortunately, that is about half of us. I am not saying invade Libya. I am saying that the prospect of having 30 F/A 18s sixty miles off your coast might concentrate a thug’s mind and maybe save some lives. The One doesn’t get that, never will, its not in his make-up.
“…where people who have plenty are petulantly whining for more from the only people who are capable of producing it.” That’s some fine writing, VoC.
That said, I have a small quibble with your last thought: that the prospect of a squadron of F-18s off the coast might make the thugs think twice before killing people. Problem is, the street thugs don’t even know the carrier is there, nor do they believe it will attack, nor would they be much concerned that even if the carrier launched, *they* would be the target.
Fact is, a carrier group doesn’t affect street-thug thinking at all. That could be changed if, whenever a carrier deployed, several towns were levelled within a week or two–but of course no president would ever do that.
Never fails to make me laugh, all those world travelers, that visit/live in exotic locations that almost to a tee, hate Israel and support it’s destruction find themselves in a pickle when the location (tunisia, libya, cairo, gaza, beirut to name a few) goes native…
If you lay down with dogs? You get up with fleas…
The Arab world (islamic as well) have institutional hatred of Jews, israel and the West. They will gladly accept your travelers checks and provide you a nice vacation but beware..
THE BEARS DO BITE.
Travel or Work ANYWHERE in the Islamic world at your own risk.
I have read to many people give great platitudes about how friendly and warm the arab peoples are. And they might be, try being honest with them next time you break bread with them, tell them about the historic rights of Jews in Jerusalem and the reasonable request that arabs only control 899/900 of the middle east and tell me how friendly they would be. Tell them that FGM is unjust. Ask them to correct the ethnic cleansing within their midst of Christians and historically of the Jews that they kept as 2nd class citizens for centuries. Ask the Arabs about their feeling towards africans…
yeah a real friend group of jackals….
The Bears do BITE…
It aint Tel Aviv..
5. Xennady
How many of those foreigners are Americans?
Oops- 5000-6000 Yurpeons was it?
My bad. I thought for a moment people might need an evacuation, but surely not any of the saintly Yurpeons. They abhor violence, and are on the side of the poor oppressed Palestinians, etc.
Why could there be a problem?
February 25, 2011 – 3:42 am
The Chinese and Germans may have all their nationals out by now. I understand that the Brits and French have also made considerable headway toward relieving their folks. The big glob of “Westerners” screaming for evacuation seem to be Americans. Indeed, there are worldwide accounts of the Libyan “authorities” being helpful in moving civilian foreigners out, other than Americans.
While apparently unrelated, there are now thousands of foreign mercenaries operating in Libya. Their ROE seem simple enough: If it moves shoot until it doesn’t. Needless to say, these butchers have not endeared themselves to Libyans. Consequently, when accounts are settled (assuming Gaddafi’s Napoleon-like flight from either Egypt or Russia or his defeat in detail) the mercenaries are dead men walking…unless…Bingo! … American hostages might be their tickets home.
Good point 8 @sf
I was thinking specifically of Quadaffi when I said that. To prevent what you are describing, and in fact what is happening, takes boots on the ground, and I am not advocating that unless there is a threat to us, which there is not. But if the President were capable of formulating a coherent message about the promise of America and our resolve to prevent such thuggery, it would go a long way towards getting said thug’s attention and more importantly, steel the resolve of potential victims. Former Gulag inmates have long reported that just the idea that Reagan was there gave them the hope to continue. You don’t always have to act on what you believe, sometimes you just have to say what you believe in a large enough microphone and send subtle hints like an 80,000 ton nuclear powered hunk of America to back it up. The problem is, if your only view of America is slavery, Wounded Knee and the exploitation of labor, you can’t get there from here. Next time we elect a “CEO”, lets look for one who believes in the basic premise of the “company”.
Another Brit does his “country” proud, verbally abusing an innocent Jewish couple outside a Paris café
This little squeak just happens to be Dior’s top designer.
I will be in Paris in June…Hmmm…
My 2 pence…
If you had a six-pack of F18′s travel overhead at supersonic speeds, making a few low level passes, the thugs would be put on notice that SOMEONE was out there watching them, and they’d better not… Follow up with a few slower, higher passes just so they can see the markings, and know it is the Big Satan.
Sonic booms are not commonplace there, to my knowledge, and might just be attention getting enough to make a difference.
During my active duty, there was always a carrier group in the Med. Always. Sometimes two as rotation schedules bumped against each other. Just shows to go ya how inept our current… Oh, never mind, it is becoming so repetitive.
tom
11. Vanguard of the Commentariat
“and I am not advocating that unless there is a threat to us, which there is not.”
Boy that’s good news. I was worried for a moment that all that was going on in the Arab world might somehow affect us. I’m glad it’s not going to. Thanks
I fully realize that our ultimate military chief is a civilian..Commander in Chief.
But did that stop some of our greatest generals and admirals from going public with criticism when the situation called for it? NO. Do they risk a demotion and a reprimand , yes. But I say that a concerted public assault on the treachery going on in the WH by Obama warrants a united Joint Chiefs message to the American public.
It is bad enough that our finances go through a private bank with little to no public accountability, which has shown before and is showing again that it’s composition is for the wealthy only.
But to endure military gutless wonders afraid to lose a star and a badge on their uniform in times of national peril is equally as treasonist as Obama has been during his entire tenure. Where are the Billy Mitchells, the Doug MacArthurs, the Geo. Pattons?
This is high stakes poker game we’re current NOT in ,but should be , and as a consequence we can only come out the buggest losers. I am not advocating a coup but simply some sane voices to give the population some hope that not everyone in Washington is a total coward, which is the way it is looking at the moment. Top military men have a duty first to the Constitution, the first section of which is devoted to the House of Representatives. Where are the hearings so they can answer why we are so weak and at least do it under oath and cover of the House? Or is there unanimity in the JCS that Obamas way is the right way? Our generals and admirals are not the SS where their allegience is owed solely to one man, they owe it to the country and are obligated to follow only legitimate orders. We don’t even know if we have a legitimate President. A nation totally out of guts at the top, civilian and military.
Vanguard #7:
“The “pay any price, bear any burden” Democrats are long gone,…’
I beg your pardon! What do you think those union types in Wisconsin are saying to the taxpayers?
But not to worry… perhaps private industry will pick up the load. Just the other day I read where one of the ex-RN Sea Harriers was bought by a 7 year old kid in the USA. Unfortunately, he did not have the money in his piggy bank and his Dad refused to pick up the tab. But a little private deficit spending can’t hurt, can it? Just look at GM! They still owe the taxpayers gazillions and just “made a profit!”
Very simple. The President has not ordered any carriers to the med. He can do so at any time, but this president has no idea on how to use military power and is anathema to him.
#10 Allen
Nothing in the links I clicked on here indicates that any of those folks stranded in Libya are Americans. Thirty seconds of google implies to me that most Americans are out already. I don’t care enough to search more.
Yurpeon, are you?
Aaah. Too bad.
Why should we, when the Americans are not?
In addition to what VoC already has said on this, I have the following observation. The Brit defense spokesman has laid bare the vastly overspending we seem to have been doing defending our so-called allies: they are entirely freeloading off American treasure and American blood, refusing to contribute anything to the effort at all.
Eric Hines
Wouldn’t need a CVN, it would also be interesting to know where the amphibs are. That would be arguably as good, in some ways better, for this situation. If they need really air strikes to protect the hostages, you’d also better have ground troops to provide security for them while they are being ferried out.
The Dong Feng 21 Effect
I am beginning to believe that the Chinese anti carrier missile has totally changed the gonad composition of our forces. The range of the modified Dong Feng 21 missile is significant in that it covers the areas that are likely hot zones for future confrontations between U.S. and Chinese surface forces.
The size of the missile enables it to carry a warhead big enough to inflict significant damage on a large vessel, providing the Chinese the capability of destroying a U.S. supercarrier in one strike.
As witness to this just a few weeks ago after the Chinese announced the Dong Feng 21 our carriers withdrew in great haste from the Persian Gulf, no doubt fearing the loss of a carrier and the sufficient belligerence to warrant a real war declaration. They headed for the high seas. Certainly by now our national technical means have determined the Dong’s whereabouts.
We are witnessing the beginning of the end of American greatness. It’s a sad sight but it’s what you get when a mulatto bellboy is running the country with no clue except how to “get down with MoTown”
Hey hey, it’s just a scheduling problem people. I’m sure Barry is going to get around to sending a Battle Group to the Med. Why I’ll bet he’s working on it right this minute. And just as soon as Barry and Shelly round out the attendees for their next White House jamboree he’s do some serious butt kicking.
One group in Singapore, one in Japan.
In Patrick Robinson’s “Shark Mutiny,” the Chinese create a diversion in the Mideast-Hormuz, distracting American resources and attention. Eventually there is no American carrier power in the Western Pacific. The Chinese then invade Taiwan. The Dong Feng accomplishes more readily what had to be done more indirectly via low-tech methods in the novel.
The Fed, printing money on behalf of the powers that be, is now holding 37% more in U.S. Treasuries than China, which actually paid real money for the treasuries. I wonder if China is more than a little miffed and might pull the rug out from under our feckless president and his banksters?
Obama doctrine? Let’s all bow to one another. Let’s all print paper money. Let’s all kick the cans down the road. And it’s o.k., I guess, to devolve into the natural order of things, which is warlordism.
Hey guys, let’s build a factory in West Frackistan.
Great idea, we’ll send over senior managers with their families to supervise the friendly native workers.
We won’t have to worry about unions and health benefits and all that stuff.
What could go wrong?
Exhelo #20:
Yes, an LHA or one of the new LHD’s with the eggbeaters augmented by some AV-8B’s should do nicely. And it can deploy those Amtracs as well.
Recall that for the Falklands operation, the RN was forced to deploy RAF GR. Harriers on container ships and eventually developed a Sea King-based AWACS for fleet defense there when the “looking out the window” approach turned out to be less than adequate. It’s not like this hasn’t been coming for a long time.
You know, what we need is some Hellcats. F6F’s could operate off an LHD with minimal ship mods and their six .50′s and some 5 inch HVAR should handle any rag tag bands we have to argue with. More impressive than “Swish… boom”, too.
“Boy that’s good news. I was worried for a moment that all that was going on in the Arab world might somehow affect us. I’m glad it’s not going to. Thanks”
Possum, methinks you are trying to bait me for some reason. Let me try this: If Libya, or any of these other third world basket cases meets the criteria of, lets say 22 out of 23 verifiable belligerent deeds against America, and over 70 percent of the Senate votes for it, then yes, there is a threat to us, and I would advocate the use of US military power, which included me in the past, and includes my son now, to do something about it. We ain’t there yet, but there are many things we can do to influence events on the ground. That’s is all I am saying.
exhelodriver (I am one myself), good call on the ESG vice a CV battle group. Much more of a range of capabilities from deadly to humanitarian.
Proof that Americans are really, really stupid
U.S. in best mood since ’08
Consumer sentiment rises to a three-year high in February, according to a University of Michigan poll.
Has the THC content gone up that high? Are the’shrooms in full bloom?
http://tinyurl.com/6x8s6d7
Is the SM-2 and the Aegis system unable to deal with the Dong Feng 21? CWIS, point defense? We certainly have enough fleet carriers and amphib groups. Perhaps none were scheduled to be in the Med at this time, but it is certainly a conscious decision on someone’s part not to have ordered one in over a week ago. Say we are positioning against Iran. Anyone in here actually believe Wright’s Disciple will help defend Israel against Iran?
25. RWE
Prefer Able Dogs …tougher. Can carry more. etc.
Aside from the oil,which WE need, We the civilized world, exactly what is to be gained by having any Arabs in the ME?
We managed to kill off the native American Indian, why can’t we do the same to an area that incubates only hate and misery for the entire world and that wants all infidels dead?
The meme has been updated, it is now “pay any ransom, bear any indignity.”
The Perfumed Princes of the Pentagon, should have spoken long ago; perhaps a Powerpoint is being prepared. Sacrifice is for taxpayers, enlisted men, and junior officers.
Here are more timely questions:
Why weren’t these remaining Westerners long gone by the time Libya fell into chaos?
Who, exactly, are these Westerners still left in Libya?
Should our national security be totally compromised because these “Westerners” remained behind?
The three “hikers” which Iran kidnapped come to mind. Those three anti-American traitors were in Iraq to do god-knows-what. I’m certain they thought their anti-American bona fides more them protected them from the seething Muslim mobs. They were and remain nothing more than useful idiots to the Muslim fascists of the region. Of course the MSM has whitewashed the anti-American backgrounds of these three idiotic traitors and depicted them as innocents abroad. And needless to say, the barbarism of Muslims is never discussed in polite society either.
The “Westerners” whom I have seen interviewed in recent days in Libya are wearing charming garb like Palestinian kaffiyas, etc. Who are these people? Perhaps those who curry favor with Muslim Nazis during the good times should gracefully accept the consequences. I can understand why hapless tourists may have been caught unawares during the Egyptian crisis, but why the he’ll are 5-6 thousand “Westerners” still on the ground anywhere in Dar ul Islam…? I suspect the vast majority are hardly recognizable as westerners as most of us would accept that definition…
Intel from inside Libya from a very reliable friend:
Mr. Schwanner,
I run a manufacturing business in Harvey, LA which builds oilfeld equipment. We have sales agents in several foreign countries, including Libya. This morning I received two emails from my agent in Tripoli. This gentleman has a PhD in Engineering, and has been representing U.S. and European companies in North Africa for many years. He was introduced to me two years ago by a member of the U.S. Commercial Service team from New Orleans. He was part of a Libyan trade delegation to the Offshore Technology Conference in Houston sponsored by the U.S. Commercial Service. I have every reason to believe that his observations are as accurate as can be expected under the circumstances he finds himself in. Here is the text of his two emails:
Received at 2:25 AMCST
I do appreciate your concern. My family is not in Libya. They are safe. I am barricaded in an apartment with enough food and water for about two weeks. I am fine. We do have electricity and water supply, but the mad dog is threatening to shut them off. Cell phones are down most of the time. The Internet is very sporadic and extremely slow to prevent people from sending photos and videos. When my monthly internet subscription expires, I will have no way to renew it.
It is very bad. African mercenaries are shooting heavy automatic weapons, killing, looting banks, and raping. Mercenary Gunships & Choppers are shooting rockets and using paid snipers to hunt defenseless protestors. The mad dog is threatening violence has not started yet. Young protestors use pebbles to fight back, and are putting up barricades on streets to delay the mercenaries. I hope we don’t see Mustard gas being used against the civilian population. We have no functioning army or police, only mercenaries. The mad dog has never trusted the Libyan military, so the deserted military have very little weapons. Practically all the dead military have been shot for disloyalty by the mad dog and his family not by protestors. The mad dog has more than enough billions to pay the mercenaries.
Surprisingly, there are no reports of Libyan gangs roaming the streets. The Libyans are united against the mad dog and there is not going to be a civil war, only mercenary war against peaceful protestors. To get the support of the west, the mad dog is claiming the protests and the uprising are arranged and controlled by Muslim extremists. Nothing can be further from the truth.
Please urge the UN to arrange for Arab armies to go into Libya and to impose a no-fly zone.
Take care.
Received at 4:12 AMCST
We now have mercenaries from dozens of counties from several continents. Ukrainians are flying the choppers and manning the sniper positions. Serbs are flying the fighter jets, and hundreds of killers from eastern & western Europe, the middle east and the Indian subcontinent. Loads of planes continue to arrive.
We hear mercenaries are rewarded $10K to $30K a day and generous bonuses for every protestor they kill. Libyan oil money is being used to kill Libyans.
High level Defections from the regime is now rampant. Very soon the mad dog will be alone with mercenaries.
Take care
If you need to contact me for verification my cell is 504-xxx-xxx. Please help get the word out about the dire situation in Tripoli.
Hey guys. I got another great idea.
Let’s put all our important corporate data in the “cloud”.
What’s the cloud?
Oh, servers.
Where are the servers?
They’re in East Frackistan.
Oh, okay. What could go wrong?
18. Xennady said…
Yurpeon, are you?
Aaah. Too bad.
February 25, 2011 – 6:24 am
…not in this lifetime…
The latest I have is that 300 Americans are aboard a ferry which MAY be on the way to Malta. They have been waiting for three days. From what I gather, about an equal number remain.
In Barack Obama’s statement on the uprising in Libya Wednesday, he asserted somewhat counterfactually that “throughout this period of unrest and upheaval across the region the United States has maintained a set of core principles which guide our approach.” He added that “these principles apply to the situation in Libya” – and as he delineated them further, it became clear that he was siding strongly with the Libyan people and other Middle Eastern protesters, and that he was assuming that the recent Middle Eastern uprisings were all idealistic, humanistic pro-democracy movements. In reality, they’re anything but.(I think Habu hit this too)
Obama condemned “the use of violence in Libya,” declaring that “the suffering and bloodshed is outrageous and it is unacceptable. So are threats and orders to shoot peaceful protesters and further punish the people of Libya.” He affirmed that “the United States also strongly supports the universal rights of the Libyan people,” and enumerated several of those rights: “That includes the rights of peaceful assembly, free speech, and the ability of the Libyan people to determine their own destiny.”
That phrasing itself suggested that Obama envisioned the crowds thronging the streets of Tripoli, crying out for Gaddafi’s blood and holding up pictures of him with Stars of David drawn on his forehead, as something akin to the Founding Fathers of the United States of America in Congress assembled. He saw Jefferson and Madison elsewhere, also, as he added that “even as we are focused on the urgent situation in Libya,” his Administration was working to determine “how the international community can most effectively support the peaceful transition to democracy in both Tunisia and in Egypt.”
________________________________________
Obama expressed satisfaction that “the change that is taking place across the region is being driven by the people of the region. This change doesn’t represent the work of the United States or any foreign power. It represents the aspirations of people who are seeking a better life.” And he quoted a Libyan who said: “We just want to be able to live like human beings.” In conclusion, he vowed that “throughout this time of transition, the United States will continue to stand up for freedom, stand up for justice, and stand up for the dignity of all people.”
The one thing the President didn’t explain was on what basis he believed that the Libyan (and Tunisian and Egyptian) people themselves were interested in principles and rights such as the freedom of speech and the dignity of all people, or held an understanding of freedom and justice remotely comparable to that of the American Constitutional system.
Unfortunately for him, there are numerous signs that they don’t. It is not insignificant vandalism that protesters in Libya have marked Gaddafi’s picture with the Star of David; rather, it is an indication of the protesters’ worldview, and of the pervasiveness of Islamic anti-Semitism. When Muslim protesters want to portray someone as a demon, they paint a Star of David on his picture. This also shows the naivete of Obama and others who insist that the demonstrators in Libya, Egypt (where the Star of David was drawn on Mubarak’s picture also) and elsewhere in the Middle East are pro-democracy secularists. They may be pro-democracy insofar as they want the will of the people to be heard, but given their worldview, their frame of reference, and their core assumptions about the world, if that popular will is heard, it will likely result in huge victories for the Muslim Brotherhood and similar pro-Sharia groups. Hence the ubiquitous chant of the Libyan protesters: not “Give me liberty or give me death,” but “No god but Allah!”
It’s also hard to reconcile Obama’s warm approval of these protests as “being driven by the people of the region” with the clear indications that the mood of the “people of the region” is decidedly anti-American. Even before CBS reporter Lara Logan was brutally raped in Cairo’s crowded Tahrir Square by a mob chanting, “Jew! Jew!,” several other mainstream media reporters from the United States were roughed up or otherwise imperiled, including Anderson Cooper and Christiane Amanpour. These two hard-Left journalists have repeatedly insisted that Islam is a Religion of Peace and that anyone who said otherwise was bigoted and racist; in Cairo, they ran up against the buzzsaw of reality.
Meanwhile, also in Egypt last Friday one of the biggest crowds of the entire Egyptian revolution thronged to Tahrir Square to hear Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, one of the most influential Muslim clerics in the world. Qaradawi, although he has been praised as a “reformist,” is actually a fanatical antisemite who is barred from entering the U.S., has given Islamic theological justification to suicide attacks against Israeli civilians, endorsed the death penalty for apostasy, and boasted that Islam would soon conquer Europe. ( an MB guy) Last Monday he called for the murder of Libya’s Gaddafi. The enthusiastic reception Qaradawi received in Cairo on Friday, along with the barring of secular liberal Wael Ghonim from the same stage, were ominous signs that genuine democracy is not in the offing in Egypt.
The likelihood that the Muslim Brotherhood would play a significant role ( Habu hit this before anyone else, while most said ney, ney) in a post-Mubarak Egyptian government led two thousand Christians to mount a protest in Cairo last week, calling for a change in Egypt’s Constitution to guarantee a secular state. Although Egypt does not fully implement Islamic law, Article 2 of its Constitution currently stipulates that “Islam is the religion of the state. Arabic is its official language, and the principal source of legislation is Islamic jurisprudence (Sharia).” Protesters chanted: “Tell the people that the revolution is a cross and crescent!” One declared: “We sacrificed our souls for the sake of Egypt, and our aim was a civil state not a religious one. I came here to ask for equality, the Constitution has to be changed and article 2 removed.”
Nothing seems less likely to happen than that; the momentum is moving in the opposite direction. Aware of this fact, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev was more realistic than Obama when he remarked on the Middle East situation Tuesday. “These states are difficult,” Medvedev said, “and it is quite probable that hard times are ahead, including the arrival at power of fanatics. This will mean fires for decades and the spread of extremism.”
Obama should take heed, since – at least for the next two years – those fires will be his responsibility.
Frontpage.
Possum:
SPADs may be too big. Looking at the deck space between the island and the deep blue sea on an LHD, it don’t appear too big. They must have made the coffee dispensers up in Admiral Country much bigger on these new ships than on the Essex Class.
But, hey! Why not some Jeep Carriers? They would work fine in this application. Convert them from Disney cruise ships; just add a wooden flight deck. The swimming pool could hold the Avgas.
“Fact is, a carrier group doesn’t affect street-thug thinking at all.”
That’s NOT a fact. It’s an oft dis-proven Leftist theory. Remember Reagan and Col. Quack-quack. The killer duck got the message when those F-111′s missed by a little bit. Calmed him right down.
Targeted assassination from the air is proving to be highly effective in the GWoT. Yes, A Carrier group gets EVERYONE’s attention. Even a mini one like the LHD-3. The Kearsarge has A Marine Expeditionary Force on board also. IIRC, that is 700+ Marines with enough CH-48′s to get them ashore in two waves. The wheels came off in Quackakstan 2 weeks ago. LHD’s like the Kearsarge can go 20 knots for days. That is about 25 MPH. 24/7. so in the two weeks, those Marines could have travelled about 600 miles per day. over 14 days that is 7,500 miles. give or take. WHY has the Obomination kept them crusing in circles where they can’t do anything? Why hasn’t Gates and the JCS said anything? Gates needs to be impeached.
‘ell, Berry needs to be impeached.
A POTUS so bad that his opponents are protecting him because they think running against him improves their chances.
33. Arkroyal
Sounds to me like Col Q. knows exactly how to take care of his business, as unseemly as it might be. I mean it wasn’t too long ago the the Tutsi and Hutu killed one another by the millions with machetes. Mercs are mercs. Just pay them.
Col Q is simply using some excellent killing resources and no one is going to stop him. Somehow you have to admire his insight, where we apparently have none.
21@Possumtater
Your comment is repugnant
Must I refresh memories?
The USD is international money and stands as the Reserve Base for all other currencies — along with gold.
Hence every other nation on earth is compelled to import USD year after year after year…
And in so doing FUNDS our Department of Defense.
That is the mechanism that permits America to sustain such an outsized expeditionary force/ global Navy.
Any reduction in pax Americana is going to have the exact same impact that hit Britain. When the Royal Navy shrunk to home waters — the Pound Sterling collapsed as international money.
It would show a real sign of intelligence if American bitching about European defense expenditures would cease.
They’re picking up the tab for forces that we control. That’s a great improvement over prior schemes.
—–
WRT the 6th Fleet: It is plain as day that the CinC US Forces sent the boys down the canal to get out of harms way and to attend the pirate tragedy.
Strangely there are no reports of our Navy bagging the pirate mothership.
The Davis Affair may also compel us to double up in the North Indian Ocean.
—–
WRT imperiled Americans in Libya: Most figure to be in the East, in which case they are pretty safe. The Duck of Death can’t get at them. The rest had best keep their heads down and sneak into an embassy.
BTW, the border with Egypt is wide open at this time. Daffy has zero control of it.
Last I looked Tripoli is no Berlin. Water and food have to be brought in, yet the ports are closed for normal business. Oil exports have been terminated. I suspect that refining operations have tailed off, too. Which means that Daffy Duck’s fuel depots are destined to drain quickly.
40. MSO
Care to elaborate or is that the extent of your thinking?
a @ 33: very clear, very believable, and very sad.
BUT it is clear that the US cannot be the world’s policeman. I still do not see why the US should consider it a priority to send a get well card to Libya, much less a carrier battle group. The whole world bitches and moans when the US bends a blade of grass in a foreign country, not to mention the sanctimonious and hatefilled Arab League. The rest of Europe has dismantled their ability to project actual force, they won’t even arrest Muslims on their own soil, giving over areas to sharia law, so they should go to Libya and start arresting, shooting people?
I have an idea – let’s send Code Pink.
If real life were a game of Stratego I would provoke a fight with Hizbullah and then exterminate them, as in completely eliminate their influence in Lebanon. The Sunnis and Druze would be on board with that. A credible American presence (and whatever Eurps joined in) would be required to stabilize Lebanon, provide humanitarian aid, and guarantee the peace (or whatever other story you wanted to sell).
That would give us a major port on the Med and a secure corridor into the entire ME. That would put any potential bad actors in the region in the deep freeze, and prevent or halt mass migration from Africa to Europe. It would also prevent any possible large scale war against Israel and the potential of it escalating into something even bigger.
My deal with Iran would be that they can look for their future in the East without major interference from us, but any thoughts of influencing outcomes in the West were off the table. I would pull out of Afghanistan because I don’t see any big prize there no matter how many Taliban we kill. The Saudis and the Emirates could just keep on pumping oil without watching their back to keep the Chinese and Indians happy and in full economic mode and off ours.
I think that a European/North African economic bloc is an inevitability not matter what we do, so why not give it the best opportunity to proceed as smoothly as possible? The prospect of major European capital investment in the ME would be enough incentive to keep the Arab teenage population bulge out the reach of the MB and their Islamist cohorts.
That wins the WOT because I don’t care how whacked Islam is, no 20 year old is going to trade a job and a girl just so he can live in a cave and wait his turn for getting ground up into potting soil.
In my fictional world the Eurps could get more demanding of their immigrant populations because their investments in the ME could make up for the revenue drain from their native aging populations.
“Hundreds of US, British and French military advisers have arrived in Cyrenaica, Libya’s eastern breakaway province, debkafile’s military sources report exclusively.”
http://www.debka.com/article/20708/
Kadhafi is saying that he commit suicide like Hitler in his bunker, his son in charge of repression is said to have left the country
I would imagine that the administration wants the Libyan Madman eliminated as quickly as possible, otherwise he might start castigating the pResident for not coming to his (the Mandman’s) aid after all that (financial) support he (the Madman) gave the pResident during his election campaign.
Of course, it is important to ensure that you do not appear to have blood on your hands, as well.
Arkroyal@33: wow, thanks for that “inside the beast” viewpoint. Things have gone nonlinear and thus will not last much longer. Like hand combat: people run out of energy after a very short time. As the physical and economic infrastructure collapse (water, food, electricity, telecom, fuel, banks, medical service and supply) the mercs will face a big problem. They cannot shoot their way back out. The Colonel’s checks will bounce; and if they’ve been paid in cash, the more they’re paid the harder it is to carry. And eating that stack of dirty paper isn’t going to nourish them. They came in light and fast and have little or no chance of re-supply. Time is very much against them. They are from Somewhere Else and cannot (easily or at all) blend back into the local population: who will have every incentive to hunt them down like dogs. I suppose they will try to rally to some enclave and hold on; and certainly they will try to create a bargaining position by taking hostages. Next month or so is going to be very ugly.
Just my WAG.
The Prez understand the use of military force? He can’t even pronounce “corpsman”.
our extensive regional basing and overflight rights
Snort worthy. Thirty two years ago the British had a base on Malta. Now their nearest base is on Cyprus, about 800 miles from Benghazi. They have an airstrip at Gibraltar, but no assigned planes. When they fought in the Falklands they still had heavy bombers that could fly from the UK to the South Atlantic with in flight refueling. Now they can’t even get around Spain and France to the Mediterranean. They no longer have long range bombers but only air defense fighters with a ground attack capability. What they have are some aging Panavia Tornados and some new Eurofighter Typhoons. The former are stretched by operations in Afghanistan and are being phased out. The later is deficient in the ground attack role. Recently the RAF disbanded their Harriers and fired many of their trainee pilots. The RAF and the RN are going out of business.
It is impossible to overstate how flattered I am that Wretchard quoted me for this thread. It reminds me of a story in one of Mary Renault’s novels. An Athenian was with the crowd watching the victors at one of the festival games parade by. Three of his sons who had won honors marched by the cheering citizens, who then turned to the proud father and cried out “Die now.” Perhaps I should quit.
e@34:
Let’s put all our important corporate data in the “cloud”.
What’s the cloud?
Oh, servers.
Where are the servers?
They’re in East Frackistan.
Oh, okay. What could go wrong?
*****************************************************************************
I wouldn’t worry about that.
All hardware will be certified and radio tagged for virtual tracking and cross correlation (level 2 redundancy as a security enhancement feature) under contract with Servers First Training Corp, conveniently located in West Frackistan, as mandated under UN Resolution BS-1984.
For a long time the US depended on the UK to “police” the seas. We even ran anti-slavery patrols with them prior to the US Civil war. At one time during the late 19th Century Chile had a larger and more modern Navy than the US did. I fear we not only will not be able to police the seas in the near future but that nobody will. The thing is that now the majority of countries depend on bulk import and export of one thing or another. Choke it down too much and the die off begins. AT my age and financial condition I expect it fairly soon anyway but way too many kids will be collateral damage. I hope I live long enough to see those responsible gut shot before their dispatch with one to the head.
Yeah, funny that. English has traps for the less {sophisticated, intelligent, self-important}.
Perhaps if it was l’homme de corp or something it would have been easier.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x52w8txtiQs
Let Go-There’s Beauty in the Breakdown.
The world is US Centric.
This thread is Navy -centric. Think outside the box, and forward.
Look at this-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Saudi_Air_Force
Think they can control the box.. Think perhaps maybe they could buy some good will with the street.
First, the latest figures I have [and they are since last night] were that there were 35 US Embassy staff and their dependents making up just under 100 still in Libya. They could not leave until ordered to, and so at the very least we have the obligation to get our own out just as we would not leave troops behind. There are about 500 other US nationals who were there for whatever reason. If they have not gathered with other Americans, they are probably barricaded like #32 Arkroyal‘s friend. If they hold a US passport; part of the purpose for the existence of the armed forces is to protect the lives of Americans overseas. We need to try to get them out, realizing that if they are scattered through urban areas and trapped, we may not be able to. But we have to try. Included with those US nationals, there are probably an unknown number of legal dependents who have a right to travel with them. There are maybe a few thousand dual national US-Libyans in the country. If they want out, they have a legal right to be rescued; but they are scattered all over the country and they may not all want out.
The ferry chartered by Hillary is, last I heard, tied up to the docks at the port of Tripoli with the embassy personnel and a total of “several hundred” Americans on board. It has not been allowed to leave because of the “weather”. It is a trimaran ferry, and I was under the impression that they were more stable in heavy seas than single hulled ships. The fact that it is not allowed to leave, while the Europeans, the Turks, and the Chinese are being ferried out en-masse makes me nervous. I am not a trusting soul, and for some reason I am reminded of the moments when the passengers of the airliner hijacked to Entebbe were separated into Jewish and Gentiles, and the Gentiles were allowed to go home.
I also have to note that this incredible cluster of an evacuation is being run by the State Department with no military input. State, unlike the military, is requiring that US nationals pay a fare for the ride to Malta, up front. There is a possibility that State is leaving Americans behind because they don’t have the cash to pay.
During the last war in Lebanon, our “Gator Navy” was able to pull 25,000 Americans out of Lebanon in the middle of a shooting war, safely. That is what the Navy and Marines do. We got them to Cyprus, and let them off there. I don’t think we charged them a thing for the evacuation to Cyprus, as that was their job which was already paid for. If there were financial arrangements that had to be made, it was done after the fact when our people were out of harms way.
Mention was made about deployments being scheduled in advance. Yes they are. But since we shrank down to the point where we do not have enough ships to constantly maintain forces on station, the deployments have been kind of like a conveyor belt of ships coming and going, designed to maximize the ability to divert them to critical areas if something happens. The Med and North Africa is a critical area, and it is part of the “conveyor”, for both CVBG’s and ARG’s.
If diverted from the original deployment orders, the military just handles it. This is not something that came out of nowhere. If the freaking Chinese Navy can get a missle frigate from off of Somalia to Libya, if the National Command Authority had directed, we would have at least an ARG there. As far as I know, we have the KEARSARGE ARG off of Bahrain, and the PONCE ARG was sailing south in the Red Sea in company with the ENTERPRISE NW of Jeddah on February 16. I think PONCE is going to take up duties off Somalia. Guess what? We are not going to do anything drastic about the Somali pirates under this NCA. Rescuing American nationals from a war zone has priority. The ship the PONCE was going to relieve would have to stay on station for a while longer. We are getting close to being two weeks into this. IF diverted, the PONCE ARG could have been there. [And to be honest, if the CNO had so diverted her, the NCA and his minions probably would not have noticed.]
Every ARG’s Marines train in NEO [Noncombatant Evacuation Operations] as part of every work up for deployment. If it has to become combatant … well they are our Marines. A Gator like the PONCE is preferable for this mission over a CVBG, but a CVBG could send the small boys in to do it.
In a previous thread, we discussed the possibility of seizing and holding the Libyan oil infrastructure in the chaos. I am still against that. We do not have the forces available, we have an NCA who would not think of doing anything that might benefit this country, if we did try it, it would be another full blown war with us tied down trying to defend fixed positions and delicate assets from terrorists while at the end of a tenuous supply line through enemy territory, and in such a war the NCA would mandate ROE’s designed to get Americans killed for no purpose. It is several bridges, and a few sand dunes, too far.
All I want to do is go in, get all the American passport holders we can under the safety of an American flag guarded by American Warriors, and get the h**l out. The Europeans are doing what appears to be an excellent job of getting their own people out. Even the Brits, without a carrier, are there. The “Yurpeans” are not our responsibility. Mind you, if some show up I have no problem giving them a ride too; but our job, our primary job at this point, is just getting as many of our people out as we can.
Subotai Bahadur
“Y2Kyoto: They Won’t Be Satisfied Until We’re All Living In Caves
But first, they’ll have to get by the Lambton-Middlesex Landowners Association;
Doug and Sheila Thompson own and operate Thompson’s Hardwood, a sawmill specializing in the milling and harvesting of hardwood lumber. The company employs between 25 and 30 people, most of whom are residents of the area.
Doug Thompson — who with his wife took the mill over a number of years ago from his father, Dean Thompson — said the MOE recently notified him that they would be entering the business on Feb. 22 to do an “air facility inspection.”
Thompson said this has become a problem for his industry, adding that the ministry had recently shut down eight sawmills in Eastern Ontario following similar inspections, an issue the Ontario Landowners Association (OLA) has taken up on behalf of private sawmill owners.
“They’re saying sawdust is a pollutant, but as far as I can see top soil is basically sawdust and rotted trees,” said Thompson, who added that he sees it as just an excuse to mandate a bunch of new equipment that the business doesn’t need and can ill afford.
[...]
When MOE officers Whiting and Hutt arrived, they were confronted by an enthusiastic but peaceful crowd that blocked their entry to the premises. Hutt spoke to the Thompsons and told them that under the Environmental Protection Act he had the right to enter the property and conduct an inspection of the facility.
[...]
After considerable discussion Hutt said: “I know I haven’t got a chance in Hell of getting into this building today.”
h/t Louise”
http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/archives/016167.html#comments
Latest on Americans in Libya http://tinyurl.com/6jsdlcy Interesting what the POUS was doing while they waited?
Time for a show of 0bama’s massive power! Send in Hillary! Her massive Skill and ability at the use “Softpower” will make any third rate dictator back down! He_l them Musslemen ain’t got a chance! Why 0bama promised Softpower was the…
Deploy to the Med. to over watch and assist with evac. efforts? Are you crazy we and the Brits are too busy with wedding plans. Theirs royal ours gay.
SB @ 53: First, the latest figures I have [and they are since last night] were that there were 35 US Embassy staff and their dependents making up just under 100 still in Libya. They could not leave until ordered to, and so at the very least we have the obligation to get our own out just as we would not leave troops behind.
Hello, Hillary?
She chartered a ferry? Is there some problem flying in and out?
They waited this long to evacuate staff and dependents?
Is there a marine detachment at the embassy?
Trimaran is stable in that it doesn’t list as much in normal conditions, but in bad conditions when it goes, it flips, in general not advisable in bad weather.
Mention was made about deployments being scheduled in advance. Yes they are. But since we shrank down to the point where we do not have enough ships to constantly maintain forces on station, the deployments have been kind of like a conveyor belt of ships coming and going, designed to maximize the ability to divert them to critical areas if something happens. The Med and North Africa is a critical area, and it is part of the “conveyor”, for both CVBG’s and ARG’s
But we have no real actions seriously contemplated for Libya, so you know how a request to divert would be resisted by the brass and the bureaucracy all worried about ongoing operations in Pokiston where they’re about to behead a US diplomat/spy anyway, and our friends the Saudis probably requested we keep the carriers near their shores for what reasons you may guess.
–
Who knew we had an embassy in Libya? Huh. Yeah I know oil, US companies involved in service, production, whatever. Still think we could set up an air bridge and air base out in the desert, might be better, except what Eurotrash countries would give us relay rights to fly over to get there?
Y’know, the whole idea of sending 100,000++ US troops to Afghanistan, and keeping them there for years, when all this began ten years ago I looked at a map and didn’t think we would ever go for something like that. And, trying to maintain it over a land bridge through Pokiston, with as poor cooperation as that was every likely to have … whew. Was that wise? Is it wise? Because it leaves us where we are now.
The New York Times describes the departure of the US ferry from Libya, together with a hint of why the administration has been so restrained. They did not want to be provocative and create a hostage situation.
So the NYT’s sources imply that the administration policy has been tempered by a potential hostage situation. That may account for why US naval assets are sailing away. But the ferry departure doesn’t mean all Americans are out. Indeed a very large number remain and cannot leave without the Duck of Death’s permission.
Those people are probably stuck for the duration. The question is: how long is the duration? Two weeks of food and water may sound like a lot, but that time can pass quickly and if the comms and utilities go out in Tripoli, as is not unlikely, then they will be in little isolated pockets all over a big ville, with no way out until either one side or the other wins, or someone comes to pull them out. Probably the former, rather than the latter.
Barack Hussein Obama will not threaten Muslims with force. He won’t do it.
FWIW: Hillary’s ferry has finally gotten under way.
“VALLETTA, Malta – Rough seas stranded thousands of Chinese workers hoping to be evacuated Friday from the chaos in Libya, but the ordeal of hundreds of Americans and other foreigners stuck on a ferry for three days appeared to be over as their ship finally left a Libyan port.
The Maria Dolores, carrying 167 U.S. citizens and 118 other foreigners, left Tripoli’s As-shahab port Friday on the eight-hour trip for Valetta, Malta. Its passengers have been aboard the catamaran since Wednesday but high seas prevented it from leaving.
“The ferry carrying American and international citizens from Libya to Malta is finally underway,” U.S. State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley tweeted.
Tens of thousands of foreigners are trying to flee Libya, with Turks and Chinese climbing aboard ships by the thousands. Europeans are mostly boarding evacuation flights while North Africans race to border crossings in overcrowded vans. A U.S. government chartered aircraft is expected to depart from the Mitiga Air Field near downtown Tripoli for Istanbul later in the day.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/02/25/ferry-americans-aboard-leaves-libya/
More details about the evacuation of Brits, Poles, Chinese, and other foreign nationals at the link.
Sara turned into the wind
As dawn showed dark and gray
The SBDs rolled down the deck
And slowly climbed away
A Fletcher class destroyer blinked
A semaphored well done
And CV-3 , her Wildcats gone
Sailed toward the rising sun
In Washington the Chiefs of Staff
Shook heads in disbelief
That Striped Stack Sara still was used
In refugee relief
The Med was bare of US hulls
No CVNs about
So rescuing our people from
Khaddafi was in doubt
But when you have a problem
Or a big tough job to do
What better than old Sara
And her fighting Yankee crew
A squadron of Hurricanes has just been dispatches to Malta.
Rommel will not get his fuel now!
Spontaneous combustion does occur as do accidental fires. But it is unusual for several such incidences to happen within a small time frame in a single community. In such cases it might be a reasonable hypothesis that the fires were set by a single arsonist. At least, it would seem foolish to dismiss such a possibility without investigating it.
But here we have most of North Africa and parts of the ME having “spontaneous” revolts in which radical Islamic factions are major players in these games. In the meantime, Iran sends warships to Syria … for what reason? Iran which may or may not have enough enriched uranium to make an atom bomb ships what to Syria?
And now it seems that the US navy is singularly absent from the Mediterranean.
Its all just a string of coincidences. I’m sure …
I also have to note that this incredible cluster of an evacuation is being run by the State Department with no military input. State, unlike the military, is requiring that US nationals pay a fare for the ride to Malta, up front.
Subotai, are you sure they’re charging a fare, or just checking against DNC donor lists and giving folks a convenient option of bringing their accounts up to date on the spot? I mean, it is Hillary after all. Say, what’s Mark Rich up to these days? Or those four Hasidic guys from New Square, NY? Maybe the folks still stuck in Lybia could hire them as advisors on how to get their situation taken care of.
‘why should we when the Americans are not?
In the run-up to WWII, Mussolini met with Neville Chamberlain, then Prime Minister, and Lord Halifax, the Foreign Secretary, in very early 1939, when it wasn’t yet clear whose side Italy would be on. After the British delegation left, Il Duce told his own Forein Minister (and son-in-law) Ciano “These men are not made of the same stuff as Francis Drake and the other magnificent adventurers who created the Empire. They are, after all, the tired sons of a long line of rich men.” The grandsons are apparently even more tired.
Speaking of paternity, I am descended at some legnth from Drake’s cousin, Sir John Hawkins, one of the men who converted the Royal Navy from a collection of ships into a force that “Ruled the Waves.” I’m a little saddened to see the end of Great, Great, etc. Grandpa’s work, but there it is. An institution that made it four centuries on top ain’t bad though. It’s worth noting that he had to fight vested financial interests to get his changes through. The people making a living off the Royal Navy when he took over didn’t like his financial reforms, which insisted on more money for the ships and men and less for the administrators and paper-pushers. Wonder if Scott Walker is a distant cousin?
Profiles in courage: hey the O is debating removing Libya from the UN Human Rights Commission. That ought to merit an oak leaf cluster for his Nobel Prize.
…the incredible shrinking rescue of American citizens from Libya…
The boat (not a ship, mind you) has landed in Malta. Contrary to earlier reports, the Mail is reporting that less than 200 Americans were aboard, and had been since Wednesday. The remainder of the passengers were non-American nationals. As to dual citizens, there are about 6,000 Libyan-Americans trapped in Libya, says the paper as well as uncounted “hundreds” of other Americans.
You may be certain that because the US government has failed to use larger ships and has shirked its duty, Americans are going to die in Libya, just as they have off Somalia.
I think youse guys are overlooking something. The Obomination doesn’t care about America, he Doesn’t care about Americans. What he cares about is Obama and getting re-elected. Right now he is looking at an uphill battle after presiding over thr worst economic melt down in US history. Then there is the collapse of everything American that reached fruition on his watch. It doesn’t look good but he’s the master of the telepfompter anf he fooled the suckers once. What is to say he can’t fool them again?
History will show him as the POTUS that lost the ME. That won’t happen until he is back in Chicago in private practice, pedalling influence to former despots. But what will sink him, completely is the same thing that sunk Carter. Hostages. A daily hostage countdown. The MSM will try to avoid that but once one breaks the line they all will. Yet hostages will be taken. That is the only chance the mercs have to get out alive. So this administration will do what is natural for them and take the cowards way. They will hide in the corner and hope nobody notices them.
Now all we need is a rabbit to chase Berry around the rose garden.
We haven’t enough warships because the Democrat Party for many decades has been gutting the U.S. Military, since the presidency of James Earl Carter.
They are only interested in scam, grift, con, and loot.
“Sorry Rascals” is a term used by southerners in polite company to indicate people who cannot be trusted to behave honorably or decently unless closely supervised at all times.
Excerpt from an Associated Press article of 24 Feb 2011, under the byline of Matt Gouras, AP:
…
Some residents, Democratic Gov. Brian Schweitzer and even some Republican lawmakers say the bills are making Montana into a laughingstock. And, they say, the push to nullify federal laws could be dangerous.
“We are the United States of America,” said Schweitzer. “This talk of nullifying is pretty toxic talk. That led to the Civil War.”
…
————-
I reply to the governor with this open letter:
To the Honorable Governor Schweitzer,
In making this inflammatory statement, you utterly ignore the serial violations of constitutional principles and instructions by our chief executive, conveniently the leader of your political party. You are the worst kind of hypocrite, sir. Your own party, from lowly municipal functionaries, through county, regional, state and federal level elected and appointed officials, have for decades been imposing draconian rules and measures on the tax-paying subjects of this land, while siphoning off huge treasures and perquisites for themselves from the river of gold they coerce from the citizens.
Do NOT dare to tell us that those who stand and oppose your party’s prolonged abuse of this republic are the cause of the trouble. Do NOT tell us that our impatience with Democrat Party crimes is in any way comparable to the secessionist defense of the institution of Slavery. Sir, it is the Democrat Party which historically governed the South and initiated the secession of the southern states. It is the Democrat Party that ruled the South through the period in which the KKK was formed and operated to intimidate black citizens. It is the Democrat Party that stood in the door blocking integration of public institutions in the late 1950′s. It is the Democrat Party whose members voted overwhelmingly to defeat the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
I won’t bore you with the list of a hundred vicious misdeeds by members and leaders of the Democrat Party in the brief period during which you all enjoyed a supermajority in both legislative houses. The disgusting behavior of Democrat officials during those two years will stand as the worst examples what passes for public service long after this nation has crumbled to dust.
in 1969 Edward Kicked-out-of-Harvard-for-Plagiarizing Kennedy left a party with his assistant Mary Jo Kopechne. Half an hour later he left her slowly drowning, trapped in the vehicle he drunkenly drove off the Chappaquiddick bridge. The Democrat party never missed a beat — Not satisfied with merely forgiving or defending this moral monster, they celebrated and advanced him to the position of honored elder statesman. Ditto for William Jefferson Clinton despite his serial abuses of women under his power. The Democrat Party has no shame, no standards except take everything they can get, and screw the country.
The only way a petty tyrant like our current leader can continue to commit one violation of the law of the land after another, is with the clear support, acquiescence and complicity of the members of his own party. You, sir, and the rest of the Democrats have abdicated your sworn duties.
Respectfully,
A Voting Citizen
(Possibly even a resident of the state you claim to represent)
Now all we need is a rabbit to chase Berry around the rose garden.
Per Instapundit, Carter looks like the (increasingly unlikely) best-case scenario. A rabbit seems more than Obama deserves, when you consider his stature. A dyspeptic gopher perhaps instead.
Maybe it’ll be after his arugula, and Michelle will save him by chucking a can of Pepsi Zero at the rodent.
68) stoicheion,
“What is to say he can’t fool them again?”
It wouldn’t be shocking at all – according to the polls, after everything that has taken place over the past two years, he still gets 45% of the vote if an election were to take place now.
what came to my mind was, “30,000 Chinese? That’s a lot Chinese.”
I mentioned yesterday as an addition to Cowboy’s post that the ferry stuck in Tripoli due to high seas was a ripe, target concentrated with American hostages, and hoped the U.S. put Spec Operators on board for their defense. But, of course, if the U.S. has 5,000 (!) hostages milling around at airports and seaports waiting and hoping for a ride out, why worry about one ship.
Truth be told, if a hostage crisis results from Obama’s feckless leadership and poor planning, it’ll be “Jimmy Carter II”, and nothing will save his Presidency. After all, it’ll be pretty damn tough to blame this situation on Bush and Cheney, not that they won’t try.
That said, I hope our countrymen get out O.K., because even if they’re Muslim sympathizing, Euro-trash wannabes, they’re still American citizens, and that used to mean something once, other than “easy target”.
And again, these events demonstrate that “death announcements” of the Carrier and Amphibs were a bit premature. Just last week reports had the Marines downsizing due to a perceived modern irrelevancy.
Old Salt
Exhelodrvr:71,
It wouldn’t be shocking at all – according to the polls, after everything that has taken place over the past two years, he still gets 45% of the vote if an election were to take place now.
My take on this is that the ballot box is still secret, polls not so much. A large percentage of our population do not want to be seen or heard criticizing President Obama for fear of the racist implications. As a practical matter I know very few of my friends (mostly liberal) who voted for him in the last election, who are not visibly suffering from buyer’s remorse. Will this carry through to 2012? Deponent knoweth not.
Subotai in his # 53 refers to “the NCA.” With screws in my hip from kid, I didn’t serve, so there’s an awful lot of terminology I hafta look up. For any other ignoramuses, here’s a quote from a Wikipedia article on the “National Command Authority” — acronymic “NCA”
“The NCA consists only of the President and the Secretary of Defense or their duly deputized alternates or successors. The chain of command runs from the President to the Secretary of Defense and through the Joint Chiefs of Staff to the Commanders of the Unified and Specified Commands. The channel of communication for execution of the Single Integrated Operational Plan (SIOP) and other time-sensitive operations shall be from the NCA through the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, representing the Joint Chiefs of Staff, to the executing commanders.
—Section 3.1, Department of Defense Directive Number 5100.30 December 2, 1971[1]
After the 1986 reorganization of the military undertaken by the Goldwater-Nichols Act, the Joint Chiefs of Staff does not have operational command of U.S. military forces. Responsibility for conducting military operations goes from the President to the Secretary of Defense directly to the commanders of the Unified Combatant Commands and thus bypasses the Joint Chiefs of Staff completely.”
So now I understand that referring to the NCA is a convenient narrowly focused but oblique reference to the prez and secdef, whom the framers of the legislation could never have anticipated would be a couple of soiled-didie morons.
I do NOT understand how any legislation coming from Barry Goldwater would have intentionally removed the JCS from the chain of command between the CinC and the operational commands. I read about it, but I don’t understand…
In his #64 TCobb mentions the links among Iranian nuclear weapons program and the mystery ships sent through the Canal… to Syria????
Keep in mind that as long ago as 2001 Syria had already mined some 2 Million tons of phosphates containing up to .02 percent U235, under the nominal supervision of the International Atomic Energy Agency. The percentage of fissionable Uranium in those Syrian phosphate sediment deposits is small, but out of billions of tons of phosphates, it is possible in the fullness of time to extract as much Uranium as is desired, for purposes peaceful or otherwise.
Can someone among the BC readers calculate with some reliability the amount of weapons-grade Uranium yielded by a million tons of phosphates of which .02 percent is Uranium of natural isotope ratios?
I betcha they have a whole bunch more U02 now than they did 10 years ago.
Presumably, this is the reason the IAF bombed the nuclear facility in Syria’s desert Deir ez-Zor region in September 2007. The Syrians deny it ever happened, deny there was any nuclear facility, and in any case, had cleared away the debris in just a month. Hmmmmm. Nobel Peace Prize Laureate Mohamed ElBaradei, whom many in the US media portrayed as a hero of the late Egyptian transition, criticized the Israelis for “shooting first and asking questions later.”
Where was that bastard when Syria was extracting Uranium right under his nose?
32. Arkroyal
Those letters are very enlightening. Would that the Arab League or the Egyptian Army intervened, and somebody in the region dealt with this rather than the US.
It’s obvious why the AL won’t be a help, but I wonder if the Egyptians could come in? I have no idea how Libyans would take that, and there’s probably a snowballs chance that the Egyptians would do it anyway. I don’t know if they’re capable, due to the recent instability, even if they were willing. I also don’t know who the Egyptian power centers are rooting for.
From the looks of things K’s days are numbered, and he’s either going to take the country down in flames with him, or not. Egyptian intervention at this stage probably wouldn’t change the outcome much, but may help speed it up. Earlier it or something like it would have been much more useful.
I hope there’s some way we can identify some of these mercenaries and bring them to justice. I don’t think that’ll happen either, but it should. After Q is gone it would be nice to return some of these folks to Libya for “trial”. People who kill unarmed protesters for pay are not mercenaries, they’re hit men, but they’ll probably be murderers that get away. At least the ones who aren’t caught in country will.
There’s been a recurring question we’re hearing: “Where are the Americans?” The World, particularly the Europeans, have come to expect that when things get sticky they can count on the US to step up, even if they subsequently protest our action. Those days are coming to a close, whatever the implications for World stability.
The future will look more like the 30′s than it will the 90′s. That doesn’t sound good, and it isn’t. It’ll be a very risky time. There will be multiple world powers, and we will be in the first rank still, but won’t be able to dominate matters as we have been. In short, there’ll be no “world policeman”.
We’re in bad shape fiscally, politically divided, and we recently elected an unknown empty suit community organizer as President, as if that job was no different than being mayor of a medium sized city. We’ve got some major recovering to do, and the world will have to deal with many of their problems on their own, or with indirect US support, while we do it.
Where are the battleships? That is what I ask myself. Reagan took some out of mothballs for this exact exigency, and I would say it worked well for over thirty years of dividends.
The threat of those big guns would be a truly sweet comeupance for MQ and his ilk.
So we are going to finally have a situation where doing without the Navy and all those sailors will occure.
Doesn’t matter the men and women on those ships will never get a bit of actual thanks, recognition, glory or medals even should the Carriers be found and sent back into position.
perhaps this is the rope-a-dope where a larger number of Americans are killed than were killed on 9/11 and America finally decides to name it’s enemies.
kck/78,
the south Atlantic Falklands war
sent Sheffield to the ocean floor
and made some of us truly sore
afraid of ASMs galore
swarming out to ship from shore
80 buddy L; Not to mention the Belgrano.
By the way for a CV, being out of position is usually given when orders to take on an immediate mission cannot be instantly obeyed. If The CV in the Arabian sea were called on to rescue anyone in Libya the answer would be CV cannot comply out of position.
#78 KCK
Sadly, the BB’s are long gone, reduced to museums. Between 1992 and 2006 they were stricken from the Naval Vessels Register and de-militarized. I also miss the great utility of gunfire and missile support possible from them. And the impression that they make. But they were expensive to operate, having older low efficiency, high manpower and fuel intensive engines. There were no spares for the power plant and engineering. We had to choose between operating a battleship, or a half dozen or so destroyers every year. And the barrels of naval rifles have to be replaced after so many rounds. It was found that this country is now totally unable to fabricate a 16″L50 Mark 7 barrel, at any cost.
Given that our Navy has gone from approaching the 600 ships we need to comfortably handle our worldwide obligations back down to where we have fewer combatant ships than we had before World War I; we can’t afford them.
The fact that we cannot keep a force permanently in the Med is telling as to where that will lead. Especially if the Suez becomes an undependable route.
Subotai Bahadur
Mad Fiddler…
Barry Goldwater discovered that the Joint Chiefs creates a Sum of All Fears effect and that it is never a force for action. Never did it help in the past.
More generally, the Joint Chiefs are financial warriors. Budget battles are their forte.
Because they spend virtually all of their time fighting over money it is impossible for them to co-operate operationally for any purpose.
Goldwater found out about this only after having years of experience and countless interviews with the top brass.
As a practical matter the President never gets involved in military details unless he’s a fool like LBJ.
Typical carrier deployments are decided by the CNO with occasional oversight by the Secretary of Defense. Presidential involvement is uncommon and crisis oriented. You can bet your last dollar that the Resident sent the Fleet off to the Indian Ocean. He’s the only one to see the utility of that shift.
the evac from Beirut (2006) as seen by an American Chef:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJCeMXRmHzo&feature=related
I don’t understand why they have put an arms embargo on Libya now. It was okay to sell them arms so that they could someday attack a country but it is not okay if they attack themselves?
#75 Mad Fiddler, #84 Blert -
Background, as short as I can make it, and ignoring various elements such as the State Department and various other staffs etc).
The short version: Carrier schedules are written by the Office of the Chief of Naval Operations in response to requests from the Combatant Commanders (COCOMS), reviewed and adjusted by the staff officers working for the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (CJCS), approved by the Chief of Naval Operations (which, despite the title, is an administrative position) after personal approval by the CJCS, then briefed to and approved by the Secretary of Defense in person.
Every time a ship or aircraft – or, under SecDef Rumsfeld, for that matter – a single soldier – crosses one of the demarkation lines between the COCOMs (such as the that between Central command and European Command), such movement has to be personally approved by the SecDef himself. So – the CNO has no operational control over forces, and can’t move anything anywhere.
Goldwater-Nichols, as the legislation is referred to, was rammed through to in response to a series of military disasters, Desert One and Grenada among them, which showed beyind the shadow of a doubt that the individual services could no longer fight wars on their own. (That’s the company line, which is pretty close to the truth). The result was to bifurcate the Department of Defense into warfighters (the COCOMS) and service providers (the heads of the Services). (Remember, this is the short version – there are other elements, but I am ignoring them for now).
Very briefly, the chain of command runs from the President through the Secretary of Defense (together called the National Command Authority – NCA) to the Combatant Commanders in the field – Central Command, Pacific Command, European Command, and so forth. The Joint Chiefs of Staff is composed of the heads of the military services, who report to the Chairman, who in turn reports to the NCA. They are, altogether, STAFF officers.
The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff is supported by his own staff of about a thousand officers (together called the Joint Staff). Each Service Chief (the CNO, the Army Chief of Staff, etc) is supported by his own staff. Together, they have no operational control over anything.
The Service Chiefs train and equip their Services for employment by the Combatant Commanders. The Combatant Commanders are the warfighters – they employ the forces in the field.
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