Damn the Torpedoes: North Korea Strikes South Korea
CNN reports that North Korea has hit a South Korean island with 200 rounds of artillery. “At least 200 rounds of artillery hit an inhabited South Korean island in the Yellow Sea after the North started firing about 2:30 p.m. local time … South Korea’s military responded with 80 rounds of artillery and deployed fighter jets to counter the fire, the report said.” CNN correspondent Andrew Salmon said, “what we’re seeing is something new.”
But maybe not unexpected.
In March of this year, the South Korean Pohang-class corvette Cheonan was torpedoed by a North Korean submarine. Hillary Clinton responded by sternly warned North Korea that it would face consequences.
embedded by Embedded VideoYouTube Direkt
In warning Pyongyang, Secretary of State Clinton aimed to send a “clear message” to North Korea: “We cannot allow this attack on South Korea to go unanswered by the international community.” Whatever the message sent was, it didn’t deter North Korea from this latest attack. But don’t worry. The odds are that Secretary Clinton is consulting with allies to determine how to engage Pyongyang so that this doesn’t happen again, at least not in the next few months.
embedded by Embedded VideoYouTube Direkt
Update:
Reuters has details on the US response. The gist of it is that the allies are going to get China to talk to North Korea. This is a backhanded admission that the arbiter of affairs on the Korean peninsula is China.
State Department spokesman Mark Toner said the United States was seeking a unified diplomatic front with North Korea’s neighbors including China, Pyongyang’s sole remaining major backer which has in the past resisted international efforts to get tough with its isolated ally.
The message is that if you want something done in the region, talk to China. Washington’s utility has been reduced to a spokesman of the delegation to China. But the real gears turn in the Middle Kingdom. Therefore, it would not be surprising if one day the allies simply recognized that the US Secretary of State was an unnecessary and superfluous intermediary between themselves and the real audience. Logically the next step is to deal directly with the Chinese leadership in Beijing. The US has been dealing itself out its global commitments. Whether that is good depends on your point of view. One thing that is undeniable, however, is that an American retreat will have consequences, ones that will not be easily reversed.
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Hill-de-Beast should know about the “international community” (yes, sneer quotes), After all she has in common with them being toothless old dogs.
Bark! BARK! gum gum.
Just to throw a fact in the mix. Doesn’t this violate the truce agreement?
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Korean_Armistice_Agreement
pinched
Article 1
6. Neither side shall execute any hostile act within, from, or against the demilitarized zone.
As a rule of thumb going back to when thumbs were new things, hotter then an I-pad, Shooting violates a truce and makes it invalid.
So technically, we are at war with North Korea. The original Chapter 7 Un resolution is now in force.
So if the Obomination had a pair, he would send in the bombers tomorrow. Hit the Palace and the Reactor. Rubble them and if the Norks don’t make nice, bounce the rubble. Keep doing it until they get the idea.
In the real world “I don’t know” is sometimes not an option.
I had to work my way through college doing blue collar jobs. As such, anything I learned in the classroom had to be reconciled with the real-world experiences I had in the workforce.
In those days that was the norm. But even then there were a few of my classmates who didn’t have to work. They were the ones who could spout platitudes like nobody’s business. And they were the ones who would look like a deer in the headlights when pressed for a workable plan of action to make something work beyond the realm of the conjectural.
Thinking of them I’m reminded of this clip of the president.
The South Koreans (aka Republic of Korea, or ROK) will only be held back so long, before they themselves respond forcefully to such provocation. Of course, the dear leader and his cronies are just looking for an excuse to try out their nukes for real. I wonder if they can get those missles fired, before the ROK Air Force and Special Forces take them out. I also wonder if they are accurate enough to actually hit anything they are aimed at, or will they instead hit Tokyo (or Beijing)??
Not difficult to figure out what’s going on; North Korea is trying to shake down South Korea and its friends and allies for money. Blackmail, in other words. “Pay-us-off-or-we’ll-do-crazy-shit”. They’ve been doing this for years.
OK, we’ve tried engagement and we’ve condemned their actions. And we get this. If we wave our hands and stamp our feet, how will the Norks respond? A nuke on Osaka?
Joe Biden tells us the Prez is extarordinarily brilliant. So I’m sure he will figure out what to do.
Wouldn’t it be a stunner if Barack Obama’s legacy was Japanese re- militarization?
This is very, very frustrating.
I don’t believe the Administration has even expressed it’s “disappointment” yet.
Hillary had better get crackin’.
While it is rational and perfectly correct to attempt to “defuse” the situation and urge “restraint” in order to prevent the escalation of events the region is paying the price for failing to deter North Korea. The ratchet is moving in one direction: North Korea is becoming increasingly belligerent. It has a sunk a warship. It has tested what is allegedly a nuclear weapon, fired missiles over Japan, brandished a new uranium enrichment plant. Now it has shelled civilian targets.
One day, maybe this week, maybe next month — but eventually — things will go too far. Some “damned fool thing” in North Asia will happen. Like all the bubbles that have burst after decades of kicking the can down the road, the bill will suddenly come due.
And yet even if the politicians see it coming, they’ll respond in the only way they know how: kick the can down the road.
The US should immediately announce that it supports the establishment of nuclear programs in RoK, Japan, and Taiwan and will immediately invite top scientists from these countries to US nuclear labs for a crash course, while construction of necessary facilities begin in the home countries. Then tell the Chinese to shoot their rabid dog in DPRK or deal with the consequences of nuclear states on their periphery. even if they do topple the regime, we continue with the plan.
If I were Japan, the Philippines, Taiwan, and all I’d be doing my best deal with the Chi-Coms now. It is obvious the US either can’t or won’t do what is necessary to protect allies.
We are in the process of watching what could have been “little wars”, if the aggressors were met with resolution, turn into big and much more destructive wars. If our leaders had any genuine core principles (besides accumulating as much personal power as possible), North Korea, Iran, and other festering wounds would have stayed small and relatively impotent–instead, they have become raging infections that threaten the life of the world.
With a weak US President, the bad guys feel they can do pretty much as they please. Which one is next?
I wonder what consequences NK will suffer for this latest outrage. Condemning the torpedo attack last March was necessary, but our Administration’s clumsy “consequences” threat made us look like the boy who cried wolf.
This time around I hope the Administration can learn from its mistakes without inviting further embarrassment due to its utter incompetence.
I don’t remember our previous president kicking too many cans down the road, although you could argue that he did Kick cans. That artillery was fired at President Obama.
North Korea has the capacity to kill 250,000 civilians in the city of Seoul in 20 minutes. They have been able to do that for over 40 years using conventional artillery. The capital of South Korea is 35 miles from the border and the North Korean artillery is dug in and defiladed to fire from the back side of the mountains. Even if the South Koreans begin with a massive attack on the North Korean artillery sites they must expect that 20 minutes of slaughter to happen. South Korea should mobilize and begin to evacuate Seoul but understands that as soon as it gives that order those quarter of a million people will die. Once war begins the ROK army should rapidly destroy the North Korean forces and regime.
We should encourage the development of nuclear forces by Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and Australia.
If things weren’t going to be so painful, and if real lives weren’t on the line, I’d almost enjoy the coming disasters and the blame being pinned where it should be. It would go great with popcorn and a couple of adult beverages.
As it is, I fear the black swan, and I pray harder every day.
Reuters reports: S.Korea says it test-fired in area before N.Korea firing
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTOE6AM05P20101123
The terrorist is well served by regularly notifying it’s target that the terror weapon is on permanent hair trigger and that mayhem will directly follow if the target gets out of line. This is how the terror weapon works. Most of the time it doesn’t even need to be used, just see the West’s fawning over “Muslim sensitivities”, fearing to provoke in any way another outburst from the peaceful Muslims.
We solemnly promise we won’t draw pictures of The Prophet, peace be upon him.
We solemnly promise we won’t “insult” Islam by offending you in any way.
We solemnly promise we will install prayer rooms in airports so Muslims don’t feel alienated.
We solemnly promise we will exempt your women from TSA pat-downs, they are such delicate flowers.
We solemnly promise we won’t mention the words “Islam”, “Jihad”, or “Muslim” when discussing terrorism.
We solemnly promise we will begin preparing all of our meats in Campbell’s Soup in halal fashion.
We solemnly promise we will slant our history books in favor of Islam, elevate Islam, and denigrate our culture.
We solemnly promise we will begin celebrating Muslim Holidays, and distort our history by depicting Islam as integral to both American history, and our current culture.
We solemnly promise we will walk off the set if anyone dares to suggest that Muslims have anything to do with terrorism, or that anyone should worry if Muslims are on their flight.
North Korea’s prize is the domination of the south through terror. That is bad enough. But Muslims intend nothing less than what their hideous book proclaims and exhorts: that Islam Uber Alles is the ultimate goal, that terror is their weapon, and we are groomed accordingly to comply.
“Speak loudly and carry a big check” – Hillary Clinton
NK is a Chinese client state, so why are the historically patient Chinese doing this now, rather than just let the US continue to destroy itself? The most benign reason is just to increase their influence in the region. Or, perhaps they feel we are so hollowed out that the time is ripe to accelerate the trend.
“North Korea is becoming increasingly belligerent.”
Danegeld due again?
the advantage to kicking the DPRK down the road is that a nation that is trying to subsist on grass isn’t going to last forever.And in the regime’s fall they aren’t likely to strike out(ain’t no 72 virgins waiting for them), either the Kims will hide in China or end up against a wall.
Iran and Pakistan are the longer term problems and are likely to have wider repercussions.
17 Jaybird
Well spoken Jay, There is no other reason.
“What we’re seeing is something new.”
WRONG, microphone-breath! What we’re “seeing” is the acting out of the baser instincts of human nature–a fixture of man since time immemorial–and something that “progressives” who believe in the infinite perfectibility of man are constitutionally incapable of wrapping their minds around.
It is concievable that this action is a warning from the Chinese to the administration about the consequenses of continuing to devalue their debt held in treasuries by QE2. After subtle (and not so subtle) protests by the world community, the forex wars may have taken an ugly turn.
MarkIX is right, NK is not a wild dog, they are China’s pit bull. Remember the article about the Chinese military officers’ attitudes. A nasty client war is underway.
“I wave this paper in your face with determination.”
Yeah, that’ll do it. We’re set now. That’s the ticket.
Maybe we can get the Goober to go to DPRK and create a new ‘agreed upon framework’, it was so successful last time.
/sarc
tomw
Nothing new in this post.
I have advocated for five years nuking several of our enemies. Af-G is topographically perfect.
North Korea, the paranoid state of planet Earth is also due for a nice hunk of megatonnage, nuclear style.
Folks, it’s coming so by what logic does one wait for a first strike when multiple enemies have been attacking us for decades, or in the case of Islam for centuries …. just refer to Pres. John Adams and T. Jefferson.
We gain zero advantage in waiting to be hit first. The reality is the USA is, and has been, the most giving country the world has ever known, but we should also show some offensive backbone after being threatened time and again by NorKo,Iran, and the AQ via the Taliban.
Nuke first, then negotiate. Guarantee the world will be all ears. As for the Chicoms and the Sovs …lets just see if they go all in to save the above mentioned delinquent states. They won’t.
Talking with allies? I am surprised Obama hasn’t claimed the shelling was just a failure to, “communicate,” with NK. I’m sure it’s all just a misunderstanding. Does any one else find it amazing that under Obama’s watch our enemies are more brazen? Now, they demonstrate, in a dog and pony show, just how far they’ve come in nuclear tech inspite of all the, “West,” has done at their political games. Now, on top of this, they are so ballsy that they even shell, not hide under a secretly launched torpedo they deny doing, a South Korean island. This is an active military move not hidden and cannot assume plausible deniability (or was it just a miscommunication with a NK commander). Now Russia as well as China are warning the those that defend and support South Korea not to cause problems? There should be massive red flags popping up all over the place. Can’t wait to see if Obama goes for another round of golf to celebrate.
Only an accident by the ROK or US will lead to any real consequences for the NROK otherwise the balls are nowhere and have never been found in any American Administration since Ronald R. that will seriously deal with the NROK’s, the Political cost and the Chinese make anything other then “tempered words” the most to come from our political leaders (Republican or Democrat)!
Dear Seoul,
Question: when North Korea goes belligerent, and you want it to stop, who do you call Washington or Beijing?
Before answering, remember one nation’s elites are self-confident and proud of their nation and its accomplishments, the other is not. Sear that into your memory, South Korea.
21. MarkIX
It is concievable that this action is a warning from the Chinese to the administration about the consequenses of continuing to devalue their debt held in treasuries by QE2
Concievable but highly unlikely. The linkage just isn’t there.
It is more likely that NorKo acted alone,knowing the Chicoms would protect them in the Security Council, but that will not stop a war. The Japanese prior to WWII in attempting to establish their Co-prosperity Sphere of influence assaulted China which was a de facto American protectorate. In China, between the two World Wars, “Dr. Frank J. Goodnow, a distinguished political scientist of the Johns Hopkins University, accepted a post as constitutional advisor to the government.” Goodnow effectively wrote the first constitution of Republican China in 1914 became an important influence on governance in China and one of several major civilian players in the China theatre. Frank Goodnow left a deep impression on many of the Chinese leaders, some of whom later applied these ideas to Taiwan. The Japanese also overran Siam, another protectorate along with several other US protecotrates. When the US did nothing the Japanese drew the conclusion that the US would not fight. Obviously wrong but in the interim we allowed Pearl Harbor to validate our war stance. Allowing first strikes is for suckers.
Unfortunately, 99 percent of this analysis is not on target. Commentator number 4 said it all. Stand by for a shake-down of epic proportions. It works domestically and has worked for NK in the recent past. Bill and Hil to the rescue with checkbooks and cold cash.
It is inconceiveable that SK will ever fight a war with thier Northern brothers. They might win. Winning would mean they would have to nurture a basket case far more destitute than E. Germany was when the wall came down.
Much of what posters say about military options are true but they are also irrelevent.
The #12 post was not from me. If there are two of us I claim the title of “Gordon Senior”.
Meanwhile, OT, check this out from the URGENT AGENDA blog:
Okay, here goes. I was at a meeting tonight dealing with happenings in the academic world. I cannot use names, but an exceedingly well informed source told me that he was in discussion with a formerly high official of Columbia University, circa early 80s, and the subject turned to Barack Obama, class of ’83.
The Columbia man told this source, approximate quote, “Nothing at that time went through the Political Science Department without my knowing about it, and I never heard of Barack Obama.”
Hmm. There was a poll taken of 450 members of the class of ’83, and not one person polled remembered Obama. And, apparently, no faculty member recalls him.
What’s going on here?
So it seems the chance to improve relations between the two countries has completely vanished. However, North Korean leaders should reconsider their decisions. Their country is so much dependent on the charity of the outside world for food and fuel. And if they carry out attacks like these the world community may refuse to provide any assistance to them.
I’m reupping. Who’s with me? Huh? Come on, calling all patriots! Time to step up and defend this great nation! Sorry, butt pimples aren’t enough reason to refuse to serve. We’re an all volunteer force. If we don’t do it, who will? Who’s with me? Trust me, it’s not that bad. Sure, you may get injured. Might get mamed, lose a limb or a mind or a life, but that’s a small price to pay to keep the American dream alive. So who’s ready! Let’s roll! Anybody? Hoorah? Hello?
*patriotic Tea Bagger chicken hawk crickets*
OT, kinda…has anyone noticed the WSJ’s report about FBI raids on hedge fund offices?
Buddy, where are ya?
Now, back to the Korean peninsula…
29. bigjimbo
Baloney.
It was inconceiviable that the the NK would assault and take the USS PUEBLO, which was captured by the North Koreans in international waters in 1968, and was the first U.S. Navy ship to be hi-jacked on the high seas by a foreign military force in over 150 years.
We did nothing
The USS Pueblo is still tied up on the Taedong River in North Korea. NK is a rogue nation and needs to be obliterated from the face of the Earth. Iran will take note.
Nothing is off the table. These two countries are technically still at war.
If we wait, if we dissimble and allow our stated enimies to gain nuclear weapons do you believe our “payoffs will go down, that our position will be strenghtened?
NoKo is China’s retail window for nukes and a proxy to humiliate us. We have over the past two decades placed ourselves in a position of commercial vulnerability to the ChiComs. Its our own fault. Buraq is no help but it aint fully his fault. Its ours, Walmart’s, HP’s, Nike’s, Target’s, Federated Dept Stores’, everybody’s that likes cheap stuff.
I see no way out that does not involve pain. Physical pain or economic pain, doesnt matter much but its gonna hurt. Now the issue is that the pain that is deferred will be greater than pain now. How long do we put this off? I dont see the current regime in DC willing to face any music for anything let alone the pain that this will take. I couldnt watch all of the second video. The obvious lack of ideas and will that showed in the first ten seconds of his answer was chilling.
God help us.
south korea is still furious with america for pulling out and not completing the unification of the peninsula in the korean war
this region is a cancer and it’s poison levels fluctuate depending on the level of cajones occupying the white house
i’m surprised it took n korea this long to be this bold
BigJimbo, I agree, as I said there are none and have not been any “balls” to do anything other than “Use Tempered Words” with the NK’s for over forty years, the problem with the “checkbooks and cold cash” playbook is the “0bama” administration is quickly making the money “funny money” so how long before the NK’s (who are also one of the top international printers of phony US money) realizes the Green back is just plain ole paper? I think it is well time to tell SROK, Japan, Taiwan and Europe (Poland, Hungry Ukraine, etc.) they should “Nuke Up”! then let’s see how well the China, Russia and NK deal with their own boarder problems (in other words we play the same game they have been playing on us)
“North Korea has the capacity to kill 250,000 civilians in the city of Seoul in 20 minutes.”
Evidence please!
There are many example of artillery fire being used to reduce cities. At the worst, there were NEVER more then 10% of the casualties you mention. And that took weeks, from a LOT more tubes then the Norks have.
What you are spewing is propaganda driven by cowardice. You have nothing to fear but fear itself.
From the military POV, you are assuming all those Koreans will sit there and wait to die. I know better. Seoul is a major city, one of the largest in the world;
http://www.worldatlas.com/citypops.htm
2nd in the world with a population of 20+ million. S.Korea is a very wealthy nation;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29
#15 by 2009 estimates. What I’m getting at is most of those Koreans living in Soeul have autos. When (not if) the shooting starts, they will drive south, out of artillery range.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/rok/seoul-imagery-artillery.htm
Of the hundreds of artillery guns (hereafter; tubes) only the M1978 has the range to reach the SUBURBS of Seoul. It fires 1-2 rounds every 5 minutes.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/dprk/m-1978-170.htm
There seems to be about 500, although like all numbers from a police state, those should be taken with a bucket of salt.
What I’m saying is the math doesn’t add up.
The claim of 250,000 casualties in 20 minutes is completely bogus, something invented to sell newspapers and strike fear in the hearts of cowards.
Keep in mind that the use of nuclear weapons is ONLY illegal against non-nuclear states. North Korean IS a nuclear state, which means it isn’t breaching any treaty to turn portions of North Korea into Tritonite once the shooting starts.
I agree with Numerian #4 – it’s all about money. N. Korea has no economy and wants the West to give it money to ‘behave’.
But Obama, who is an ignorant and arrogant empty-head, gave his usual empty and ignorant answer to the question of: ‘what are you going to do about N. Korea’? All he said – and he takes forever to say it – is..’we’re going to consult with the 6 parties’..and ‘we’ll get a clear resolution condemning N. Korea’s actions’. Wow.
Meanwhile, Sarkozy sat beside him, stone-faced and obviously appalled at Obama’s answer.
Consider Obama’s foreign policy to date:
-Iran. He’s stood by while it develops nuclear weapons; all he’s done is advance the ‘sanction date’ further and further as Iran ignores all dates of compliance;
-Iran. He utterly ignored the people demonstrating for democracy. He could have publicly supported them; he was silent.
-Honduras. He openly supported Zelaya, who was violating the Honduran constitution and in contempt of the Honduran Supreme Court and Legislature;
-Israel. He’s chastized and denigrated it, putting it in the untenable position of either doing what the US says (and thus weakening its own sovereignty)..or ‘insulting’ the US president.
-Mexico. He had the Mexican president chastize the US Congress for their objections to illegal aliens from Mexico – and refuses to secure the border or insist that Mexico control its migrants and gangs.
-S. Korea. He’s just blown the trade agreement set up by Bush.
-Poland et al. He threw them under the bus with regards to missiel defense.
-UK, France, Germany, Norway – he’s insulted each and every leader of these countries.
-Gulf Oil Spill. He ignored it for days, then extorted millions from BP…and continued to ignore it. Oh, he forbade offshore drilling, putting thousands out of work – while encouraging such drilling in Brazil, where his friend Soros has financial interests.
-on and on. His failed Copenhagen and Oslo trips. His world tours, apologizing for the pre-Obama America, telling the Islamic world he’s aware of their contributions to science (???) and peace (???).
A disaster both domestically and internationally.
Maybe Hillary’s warning of stern consequences were somewhat like Hans Blix’s “very strong letter” in Team America World Police?
Now we know why the Norks were happy to show us what they had at their new enrichment facility.
Makes you wonder if the Norks will nuke South Korea before Iran nukes Israel. At least the latter can take every country within 3000 miles down with it.
Meanwhile, South Korea can count on the USA to provide….a stern condemnation..
(Kim must be scared $#@!less at that.)
# 5
surely this is a “hahaha” post..surely.. uh, I don’t know….puke
Obama is the perfect storm waiting to dump his full force on our destruction.
30. Gordon
This is one part of the Obama story that I believe. I’ve seen a telephone directory record of him from 1982-3 on east 96 which matches his story. Yeah, I’ve been on many threads with columbia college people saying that they have no memory of O. That’s likely because he didn’t attend the college. Rather he attended the School of General studies. I was there at the time in the school of general studies in the poltical science department as well. As an undergraduate you were allowed to take any courses in any college or graduate school in political science. The undergraduate courses at both the college and General studies were so uninteresting that you had to do graduate level courses just to keep your eyes open. So for that reason Obama may never have set foot in a Columbia College class.
I’d transferred from American University which is about on the same level as Occidental. I’ve also seen an article he wrote for the columbia spectator on nuclear weapons which matches his current nuclear weapons policy. His politics hasn’t changed much from those days.
One of the guys I know from that period claims that O attended a poetry reading we held at the West End Bar. I vaguely remember the black guy but not well enough to attest that it was O.
The thing you have to know is that General Studies people were generally second class citizens at Columbia and for the most part anonymous to the community at large.
O’s records at Columbia are currently sealed.
The South Koreans get to call the tune on this. They are the ones being attacked and it is their citizens who will bear the brunt if any action is taken. For our part we just need to make sure North Korea is not rewarded financially and is punished in whatever ways we have at our disposal. I also think some rhetoric about how we are sure the Chinese will bring their client state in line would be in order. You can appeal to their pride and make it clear that they will lose face if they do not take steps to remove the regime in North Korea.
Now that China is modernizing their economy there is absolutely no advantage to them to have a madman on their border with nuclear weapons that threatens a trading partner like South Korea. They have to also be told that North Korea will not be the only country in the area to gain nuclear weapons should they be allowed to continue on their current path. When cast in this light it would be hard to see the Chinese thinking or North Korea as anything other than a huge liability and a decent president would state that fact for the world to know.
Obama truly is the most dimwitted president we have ever had. Watch Sarkozy start looking around like he is bored and tired of listening to Obama’s drivel at the end of the video.
If we had only listened to Patton and MacArthur, Earth would be a hundred or a couple hundred constitutional republics, and we’d be using military budgets instead to colonize the solar system.
It would be nice if a Stuxnet were to visit the Norks’ centrifuge farm. Indirect approach, deniability, minimal collateral damage, much better PR, etc. But it’s a fond hope, partly because I doubt we’re that clued in, or could get so lucky twice; and partly because the Norks’ infrastructure is probably so antediluvian that there aren’t enough computers worth infecting. When you’re already in the Stone Age, getting sent there doesn’t even register. So the alternatives are: get all nukey on them (immediately or by getting into a spiral of tit-for-tat), or pay them off. Even though I often rant about “glassing” the troublemakers, that’s not really where we ought to go if we can possibly avoid it. What passes for brains in the UN and State Department will conclude the same: hey, if they endorsed the nukey thing, who needs diplomats? Totally against their self-interest as well as all their training, culture, etc. So guess what, we will pay them off.
My only hope is that we pay them off in such minimal useless ways –e.g. more cash to Little Kim and his cronies– that the regime continues to free-fall. People who are eating grass eventually decide they’d rather die fighting their oppressors. When it implodes, we may end up with a bigger economic/social problem than if we’d nuked the place. But so it goes.
Good thing we have strong leaders with the foresight and credibility to see this through!
/s.
NKorea has just made a dynastic transition of leadership, both the ship sinking and this artillery barrage is a form of saber rattling in a small scale, the tragedy is that people have died in the process of this pas de deux. What is becoming clear over time is the travesty of participating in a dance with a totalitarian state. The Korean War is a 50+ year old armistice and with it, we have eventually tacitly accepted co-existence with totalitarianism. The longer we dance, the longer we are complicit. All NKorea has to do is stay in the upper end of a low level of agitation, maintaining the threat of all out war to keep the rest of the world on the hook for a bottomless well of appeasement.
We need to go in NOW, as we should have done many times over the last 10 years, and take out all of North Korea’s nuclear sites and missile sites.
And when China (the real culprit behind their NK junkyard dog) acts up. Just tell them to back down.
Would China really risk going to war with us and the rest of the Asian peninsula?
If they actually did, we would no longer have to honor the debt.
Question: What does a missile launch off the coast of California, and a NORK shelling of ROK have in common? Hmmmmmmm?
Okay, this might be a stretch, but is China using NK as a proxy in it belligerence in the Pacific? China is already trying to bully Japan, but now is it trying a slightly bigger power play? I mean, lets look at how weak Obama is as a world leader or defender of any thing but socialism. Then lets look at the military’s ready state and the failure of the administrations to identify and deal with enemies any more. Now I say military ready state based off some thing a Frank Gaffney guest stated about it taking 2 days for the US military to way in on the launch of what could have been a missile. Is the US seen as being so piss poor able to defend itelf, its interests, and its allies (those that Obama doesn’t directly attack or abuse) that enemy countries are now getting even more aggressive?
The Obama clip is one of the most pathetic things I have ever seen. Beyond the emptiness of his policy, he can’t even fake something for the cameras. I guess that helps explain the omnipresent teleprompters…
For a genius, he sure seems slow and unintelligent.
Me believes the Chinese and NoKo’s have learned what the Russians did not… They see the time is ripe with “0bama” while the Russians did not quite have the nerve when Jimmy boy was in office! God will not help an America that has turned its back on him, there is a very large assortment of cans that have piled up down the road, we may have finally created a road block to our future.
RWR,
that was actually 2 missile launches off of California that coincided with Obama’s visit to Asia. Media chose to ignore the second launch.
I read that they were launched from a Chinese sub. Remember that Chinese sub that surfaced right in the middle of one of our naval military exercises and our Navy had not detected it?
China just may have military technology that is more advanced that ours.
Ha! North Korea wins again! Naturally, the US, UN & the ROK will do nothing but whine, moan & wring their hangs. All of the Western diplomats dealing w/ the Norks are a ship of ignorant fools. Bottom line: North Korea will get whatever they want after Obama bows down to them. With every “crisis” the Commie retards in the north make they get more $, food & probably naked photos of the late Walter Brennen for old buffont hair…
IMHO – This dilemma will slouch toward abandon until the NK regime finally collapses or jumps the shark demanding a resolute international response. The only dog we have in this hunt is Japan and they know better than to provoke China. NK will nibble around the edges of provocation and SK will suck it up because the consequences of an open war with the North will be too disastrous to contemplate. The State Department was already getting ready to dole out the goodies in aid and compromises and this attack is little more than a punctuation on NK’s demands. The US accrues fleeting benefits in this tumult and though it may be in our best interests to wait it out, the brilliant One will probably surprise us all by offering a long term settlement and reunification deal with US forces being pulled out over the next decade ala Jimmy Carter and the Panama Canal.
Our irrational obsession with global trade and international justice will stay the hand of the money traders. Walmart will have more to say than the American people.
sigh. Is there no end to human stupidity? South Korea has to some extent humored the North and tolerated their nuclear ambitions in the vague hope of someday reconciling with the North and thus inheriting the nuclear power thereby. I suppose *assuming* that the North held similar romantic ideas. But if they come to blows, then the romantic consumation becomes less likely, and if the South instead comes to fear the North’s nuclear progress, then …. odds are still prohibitive that the North loses bigtime, whatever damage they may do to the south in the dustup.
And we get to see just what the US has in our contingency files.
Will it go there?
Should it go there?
sigh.
All I can think is that, it’s in nobody’s best interests if it does go there. So many better paths.
As Treebeard said: Songs like trees bear fruit only in their own time and their own way: and sometimes they are withered untimely.
‘The year 2000, published in 1967, was written by Herman Kahn. It described a Japanese ‘weather rocket’ which, interestingly, had the same dimensions as the Minuteman ICBM. Now a ‘weather rocket’ of these specifications is only good for one thing, and that would be to throw a nuclear warhead. So most likely, the Japanese Government has had nuclear weapons since the late sixties.
Under these circumstances, it is difficult to imagine what N. Korea or China would find to be rewarding about flying missiles through Japanese airspace, or doing anything to annoy their government. The obvious conclusion, that someone in N. Korea and/or China is deranged, is more disconcerting than any likely plot might be.
45. buddy larsen, I agree 110% but it brings to mind the old line about if your aunt had testicles she would be your uncle.
Machiavelli was correct when he said ‘It’s good to be loved but it’s better to be feared. Or something like that.
A new videogame, “Homefront”, gives speculative fiction a new meaning. In it, Korea is reunified with Dear Leader’s son, Kim Jong Eun, as its new leader. Because of financial malfeasance in the United States, Korea, with its military might from the North and economic prowess from the South, is able to become the world’s foremost superpower (never mind what happens to starving Norks who have never experienced modern life, they are still trained in the vagaries of warfare). Korea becomes so powerful that they are able to launch a nuclear strike on America and, within months, America is invaded proper.
Needless to say, Korea is not going to be reunified anytime soon and the United States is not going to be invaded by anyone in the short term. That being said, it seems the United States should consult with the game’s writer (you guys know him as the author of Red Dawn) and begin to pick his brain as to why he thinks Korea will be reunified anytime soon. Then again, actions like this and North Korea sinking the South Korean corvette begins to lend credence that South Korea will be invaded proper and reunification will be done through the barrel of a gun, North Korea’s gun.
Too soon for Obamy to start his war.
Check back in the spring of 2012.
When North Korea bombards Seoul
Obama’s guys will take a poll
To see if we should act or sing and dance
We must not act just out of fear
But wait until the facts are clear
We must of course leave nothing up to chance
Our allies spread throughout the world
Don’t want their banners yet unfurled
Too early still to know what’s going on
It’s better that we just hold back
To see if it’s just one attack
Or just the king-four move of lonely pawn
Our lone response from Sec of State
Will show the Norks we are irate
That they would start to shoot in midst of talks
We know that Kim’s a peaceful man
Who’s doing all that one man can
To hold in check his country’s youthful hawks
And so we offer Kim a bribe
Such things as we will not describe
But first among them cash and oil and food
We must do nothing to inflame
Or cause our foes at home to blame
Us for our country’s ugly sour mood
Numerian, in comment #4, is exactly correct. These vile shenanigans by the RoK are nothing new and we should all by now why they do it. The incoming “Supreme Leader” needs money and prestige to get off to a good start. These other commenters here, convinced we should go to war with North Korea, simply ignore the implications with regards to relations with China, the numerical strength of the KPA, and the North’s popultion of brainwashed zealots. Bombing the RoK would lead to a massive bloodbath on the Korean peninsula. Hillary Clinton and Obama are right to be cautious in how they deal with this. Hotheads would only make the situation much worse. Yes, one day we may have to bomb North Korea. Who knows? Maybe sooner than later. But that should be a carefully deliberated strategy, not some stupid neo-conish, reactionary, hotheaded, jingo-pandering, knee-jerk nonsense.
JMJ
The disinfomation has already begun- you will soon start seeing stories popping up everywhere that the South provoked the attack by holding artillery drills dangerously close to the border, and the North retaliated sensibly against those provocative drills. You may even hear that the shells were fired at the North during those drills.
The truth of the matter is that there was an artillery drill- but it was one that was fired into the westward range that had been used since the eighties, and that has been conducted many times before. The North’s goal is to slowly strip the South’s control from that area, and this is a handy thing to do. No ship patrols- those are provocative. No artillery drills- those are provocative. Next up- no troops, no civilians, no flag, whatever.
It’s far lower-risk than it may initially appear, and it gives the young new leader a chance to establish control and credibility for very little cost. Well, except for the cost of those shells- they can’t be cheap given North Korea’s depressed economy.
Lets all sit this out and let the NorKs and the RoKs slug this out on their own.
Deal with the winner.
#62, you do realize that because we decided not to finish the Korean War due to worries of an aggressive China who would stop at nothing to prevent the aggressive behavior of the United States from waging war on its borders that we are where are today, right? Every choice has a consequence, even 50+ year-old thoughtful deliberations on what to do about a resurgent North Korea which was passed from Kim Il Sung to Kim Jong Il to Kim Sung Eun.
If we were to favor a military strike, wouldn’t one be better when Dear Leader is weak and is passing his country to his son in a moment of weakness? Nah, the “neo-cons” instead want war at all costs and not peace.
Just a thought, would a full on NorK amphibious invasion of these Islands trip the war off onto hot again?
I seriously doubt that NorKs on the beaches would invite any response from America who would order the RoKs to accept the fact as a done deal.
See, it’s easy to predict what the POTUS Obama (PBUH) will do.
The simplest way to make the point that terrorism doesn’t pay is to blow up the oil pipeline between China and North Korea. Done properly, it will take a month to rebuild.
A very cold month in North Korea.
Okay, Hillary (and Barry), what consequences will be facing North Korea this time? Same as last time? Maybe a sternly worded letter?
@A Nobody #63: disinformation began with the first news coverage by National Public Radio this morning. They were careful to include the fact that the South had been conducting a military exercise and the Norks had duly complained of such belligerent and provocative activity. It’s always OUR fault…I do think that this psyops aspect of the campaign is at least as important to its ultimate p(success) as the lobbing of shells. The shells are real enough, but they are real the way a fake gun in a play is real. They symbolize action and intention, execute a mental maneuver on the interior stage of every single one of us hearing the news.
This is a war of shadows, a test of will; and one at which we seem completely inept or outflanked.
I suspect that this insular little ruling-class culture cannot stand to be ignored. Their standard will be different from others, but this is their only link to the rest of the world, and they prize it.
First the revelation about the enrichment facility with sophisticated centrifuges, then this.
This is NoKo’s rogue move, telling the world China’s influence is weakening on them, they probably have others backing them now.
China is ‘losing face’ on the intl stage, esp they have ambitions to dominate in the Asia/Pacific arena. Mega not good.
no mo uro @ #2, wow, I can relate to what you said. I had the exact same experiences, but not as long ago as you gave the impression that you had them. I suppose that snotty, clueless, liberal college kids have always been with us; the same irresponsible, clueless and conformist androids who voted for Obama for no other reason than because they thought that it would be “cool” to have a black president. Who would be surprised if they learned that Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton were once a pair of those snotty, clueless, irrsponsible and conformist android college kids themselves? They fit the mold.
46. oMan
Your prescription is the same nuclear blackmail we have been paying for decades.
What will be the price if NK continues to work with other rogue countries in developing nuke tipped ICBM’s? Countries that have aleady attacked us (remember September 11th, 2001?)or threatened Israel’s existence? Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has stated that Israel could not do a “damn thing” to stop the Islamic state’s nuclear program, which the West suspects is a front to build bombs. Trust him not to nuke Israel? Trust NK not to work diligently to sell nuclear technology and ICBM’s to rogue nation. In 2006 the Washington Post reported “North Korean technicians are reportedly in the final stages of fueling a long-range ballistic missile that some experts estimate can deliver a deadly payload to the United States.” Think they have they have the Taepodong 2 secure as a launch vehicle by now?
How many time do we have to get slapped around before we take these countries out of play? Will it take NYC or DC to get nuked before we get serious about their threats?
We can’t just sprinkle fairy dust on the challenge and hope it goes away, but we can nuke ‘em out of play.
“North Korea has the capacity to kill 250,000 civilians in the city of Seoul in 20 minutes.”
Evidence please!
There are many example of artillery fire being used to reduce cities. At the worst, there were NEVER more then 10% of the casualties you mention. And that took weeks, from a LOT more tubes then the Norks have. – stoicheion
I second that. Weather NK can deliver that artillery on target depends a great deal on how well the equipment has been maintained and how well trained their starving troops are. Juxtaposed, if those tubes ARE NOT ready for action, which NK junior officer is going to fess up and admit it to .. um .. executive management. The NK’s are not probably as incompetent as Saddam’s boys, but remember the numbers thrown around two weeks before Saddam’s army was reduced to disarray. Remember the millions of tons of stored shells, ready for action except that they weren’t.
Though it’s been a few years, I’ve worked with the South Korean’s, too. They ARE good. I highly doubt that NK will be allowed to reduce Seoul to rubble in 20 minutes unopposed.
On the other hand, Seoul is not my capital, and my family does not live there. Churchill was no soft slouch, and he said “better to jaw-jaw than war-war”. The only thing we can be certain of is that once the war starts in earnest, NO ONE can predict the results.
Expect the unexpected.
Old Salt
Chrisbolts- That’s just brilliant! Ya, you are so right! We don’t have to worry about the Norks hitting a few more villages or cities or whatever and killing untold South Koreans in the thousands or millions, or maybe even developing nuclear ballistic missile capability – we can just wait for Kim Jong to weaken or something – as if we would really know when that is. That strategy has worked so well in Cuba- you know Fidel is going to croak any day now, too. Those nasty, belligerent neo-cons – always trying to protect our liberties, our interests and maybe even save some American lives in the process. How revolting! Those tired, old worn out ideals of American exceptionalism just don’t play at any of the cocktail parties I go to either.
This looks like a probe by the North Koreans to gauge Mr. Obama’s reaction to a deliberatively provocative act against an American ally. It is particularly interesting since the President is fresh from a visit to South Korea and pledged the continued defense of that nation. It looks like Pyongyang is “trying it on” to see if the administration reacts with anything more than United Nations puffery and a lot of meaningless finger-shaking. Look for more of these probles to continue both in Korea and elsewhere.
I know this is probably a stupid question:
Why hasn’t South Korea moved Seoul’s population out of artillery range?
For example, the modern Greeks got tired of rebuilding Corinth after it kept being destroyed by earthquakes. They moved Corinth’s population to a new city (Nea Korinth) and allowed old Corinth to revert to farmland.
oMan,
That strikes me as the biggest problem and the biggest failing- it’s not that there should be a massive mobilization AND THEN immediate strikes, but rather that a calculated response that shows spine must be employed, along with better infowars measures. We mustn’t rush off half-cocked, but there’s a difference between careful analysis and being too scared/shocked to be decisive (and subsequently looking like a fool). The danger is that if we blink in the game of chicken too many times, or even look like we might blink, then the other side may escalate to the point where shooting war is upon all of us.
Eggplant,
The danger with moving the population, beyond the costs of doing so, is that the North Koreans would view it as a provocation and start shelling the refugee columns. Heck, they might view it as a handy assistance, as the roads would be clogged with people, thus making it harder for the South Koreans to advance.
Obama may have ‘pledged the continued defense of S. Korea’ on his recent visit, but surely we know enough of Obama to know that Obama’s words last only as long as he says them. He’ll contradict that pledge the very next day – speaking to a different audience.
And remember, Obama just blew away an important trade agreement with S. Korea, an agreement set up by Bush – and now, smashed by Obama.
Obama is not an executive, not a leader, not a president, not a thinker, not a policy developer, not an analyst. He campaigns. That’s all. The only thing Obama can do, and has done all his life, is to charm and wheedle people. He’s a community organizer, who will exhort his minions to ‘go out and activate’, but he himself never thinks through their actions and possible results.
He rapidly became bored as a senator, for he can’t, and I mean the word, think through policies and programs. He’s the same as president; he can’t plan, read through, discuss, analyze policies and programs. All he can do is campaign – to cheers of a crowd; all he can do is speak amorphous platitudes and vacuous promises from one cheering crowd to the next. He cannot examine those promises and platitudes.
So – Obama can’t lead the US in this or in any domestic or foreign policy. He’ll wait until someone in the WH tells him what to do about N.Korea. Then, he’ll have a news conference (no questions, please) and announce it.
In the WH – this enormous vacuum of leadership, with a mentally absent president – has resulted in a WH trapped in internal feuding between factions. Whoever ‘wins’ each fight, tells Obama the result – and he announces it. He himself hasn’t a clue about its viability and doesn’t care.
His personal preferences are honed by his upbringing and also his marriage to people dedicated to anti-Americanism, anti-capitalism and statism. He’ll feel more comfortable with these solutions, but, he doesn’t think them through; he just delegates all decisions and repeats them to America.
Think about his public comments on the TSA violation of Article IV of the Constitution with airport screening. All Obama can say is: ‘it’s an inconvenience’. No it isn’t; nothing to do with ‘being inconvenienced’. It’s an intrusion of privacy and assumes that All Americans are terrorists. Obama himself hasn’t thought it through; the lobbyists for the screeners, and the TSA union – have told him that they support these measures. Obama doesn’t analyze their opinions; he just repeats them.
He’ll do the same with N.Korea – dither until someone tells him what to say.
Habu #73: Dude, I so want to smoke the Norks, ‘kay? It’s just that I see no good way of doing it without unacceptable casualties. The best, for me, would be to hurt their leadership and their military brass with pinpoint stuff, head games, actions that are cloaked, indirect. Example: their subs fail to return from the mission. Their targeting systems fall apart. Their vaunted nuke capability fizzles. Their top scientists defect, or die in “work accidents,” or are caught in flagrante, etc. Their elites’ bank accounts don’t work. The special shipments of good booze etc. stop coming. Lord willing, all that is happening. And of course it’s not enough. So we may very well end up in the hot one. For which I really wonder about our readiness and will. The best way to prevent it is to be clearly ready (even eager) to embark on it. Si vis pacem, bellum preparat. We aren’t projecting that, we don’t seem to be positioned for it with forces, training, logistics, etc. So the Norks are going to do as you deplore: play us for fools one more time.
Glad I’m not a diplomat, I’d have asked for the Big Red Button a long time back.
A Nobody, I think Eggplant is suggesting a long term strategy of building a new capitol or population centers along the southern coast, perhaps, not something that would address the current crisis. Brazil in the mid-fifties created a new capital, Brasilia, away from existing cities. That didn’t work out too well because I don’t think anyone wanted to live there, but the situation in South Korea is completely different. It would make a lot of sense for South Korea to create population centers well away from the DMZ for many reasons.
In the SunBelt in the US, effectively new cities have been created out of farmland or desert in just a few years. There is really no reason why South Korea couldn’t do something similar. If South Korea had done that 15-20 years ago, they would be far less vulnerable than they are now.
74. Old Salt
One nuclear tipped artillery shell, perhaps a few would get the job done. Even a box barrage of conventional shells would kill hundreds of thousands (remember density of Seoul.) Seoul proper is noted for its population density, which is almost twice as concentrated as New York and eight times greater than Rome, though slightly less than that of Paris. The density of its metropolitan area is the highest in the OECD.
“On the other hand, Seoul is not my capital, and my family does not live there. Churchill was no soft slouch, and he said “better to jaw-jaw than war-war”.
Neville Chamberlin tried that too. Churchill had no trouble making war-war after he became PM. The jaw-jaw time and the pusillanemous allied reaction allowed Hitler to push into the Sudetenland area of Czechoslovakia in 1938 even though they were unprepared to do so and had orders from Hitler to withdraw if they met ANY resistence ..jaw-jaw gets more people killed in the end than simply acknowledging the threat and dealing with it.
Finally to simply say Seoul isn’t my capitol etc. is to say to the world, “Hey the US will cut and run on any “ally” we may say we have. Not a good message.
If all mankind ever did was jaw-jaw then the history of the world would be long periods of peace with interstitial wars…..but it’s the other way around…peace is the exception, war the norm.
Why don’t the South Koreans move to Tampa Bay? That’s where all of the Greeks went.
32. Your Sensei: Speak for yourself junior. Many of the posters here have been, or currently are, veterans. Or were you just speaking for yourself? Are you really willing to enlist or just building a strawman? I call your bluff. Proceed to the recruiting office post-haste.
62. Jersey McJones: Act cautiously, yes. Pay them off, HELL NO.
65. Chris Bolts Sr: To be fair I have to add the first Gulf War to that list. Republican Presidents have made the same mistake. Now if they would all learn from them……
“Why don’t the South Koreans move to Tampa Bay? That’s where all of the Greeks went.”
That is because Tarpon Springs and Dunedin were full.
The biggest question is how far is South Korea willing to go? I don’t see them willing to risk the aftermath of a preemptive strike
85. stoicheion : Actually, I think Tarpon Springs was first on the list. At least they were proud to be Americans first while maintaining their Greek heritage. I grew up there (Tampa) with many of them as neighbors in complete harmony- just as with the Cuban immigrants. Just sayin’.
81 Unsk,
The challenge with that is that the North Koreans would probably view any move of the sort as a provocation- and it would be difficult to hide the move. Even a depopulation of Seoul over 10-15 years would be noticed, and possibly reacted against. Or perhaps not reacted against in terms of a major attack, but rather in terms of little things like we just witnessed today- attacks sufficient to disrupt sovereign rights over a piece of land, but not enough to provoke a major military response. Basically, North Korea making it too painful to change the status quo of Seoul being within easy strike range.
There’s also the optics of such a move. Would a South Korean government be able to weather the political storm from doing so? But like you said, 15-20 years ago would have been about the right time to have started. It may be too late right now.
eggplant @ 77: For example, the modern Greeks got tired of rebuilding Corinth after it kept being destroyed by earthquakes. They moved Corinth’s population to a new city (Nea Korinth) and allowed old Corinth to revert to farmland.
Yes, saw a flyer some years ago, the Dull Men’s Club of Los Angeles was going to debate the proposition: “Rodeo Drive Should Be Rezoned Agricultural”.
It would greatly improve the local availability of fresh arugula.
When will the Apologizer in Chief understand that he must go to Pyong Yang and bow to the MadHairStyle President (and Great Leader of the Milky Way Revolution) ?
Go, get on the plane.
(AirWeakness 1, of course.)
The RoK has long had plans (since 2004) to move the capital from Seoul and reduce some of the population density. It’s just not enthusiastically supported, but they are said to intend to complete the move by 2012 or so. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gongju
So what you’re saying, ETAB @ #79, is that Obama is just a slick street hustler, an empty suit and a lazy, useless, decadent dilletante, who has never had an original idea of his own, and who just parrots the loony ideas of his radical Communist mentors with some finesse, and who doesn’t have any executive, managerial or leadership skills whatsoever, and who is nuttier than a fruitcake, also? It took you half a page to say that? No wonder you can’t get the gist of concise comments, requiring, instead, wordy and lengthy explanations. Have you discussed your exotic form of dyslexia with someone who specializes in solving the difficulties that you have in reading comprehension? (Reserving an 8″ X 24″ block for your answer.)
An/65 is probably right –see what he means via map –the island is a good deal north of the 38th parallel and much closer to DPRK than ROK. So they’ll try to just create a hostile atmosphere and take the place by osmosis over the usual generation span –all else equal that is. Not that the island is so important, but that the revolution in the eyes of the masses be always moving forward, never backward.
Re the NoKo arty and Seoul, we should not assume HE in all that ordnance –i’ve read somewhere –and it may be BS –that they’ve got every nasty thing under the sun and moon loaded. I’m sure G4 knows –and yes NBC can drift north but if the arty is a sacrifice pawn anyway (and it is, as soon as it salvos) –so what?
FYI…
Korea practices evacuation drills for the Capital which feature the locals going underground and using the subway to evacuate/ shelter.
Automobiles are considered death traps — rather like Independence Day.
—–
Nork rocket troops can reach the city from even further back.
The trend in Nork military capability indicates that you’d have to move the Capital to Hawaii to get it out of range.
Kim is training his kid on how daddy makes his living. The punk needs to get at least one shakedown under his belt.
In well under five years one should expect the Kim family business to have a credible IRBM with a Super Bomb warhead.
In any event Korea has been annuitized.
i wish i knew what ‘annuitized’ means –
anyhoo, wanted to comment on the mkts –DJA is down 150 but–but–under the triple whammy of NoKo, FBI/SEC, and Europe –the volumes are normal, no panic –and, jeez, can i say this, strength is showing via lack of panic.
That said, watch out for the tax cut extension –LOTs of fingers on the buttons, long and short, buy and sell –and the wait is to see, if the cuts are extended before year end, the fingers come off the buttons, if not, they press down and we get a year end bloodbath. IMHO from reading trader comments –
DRR, the double-short Euro currency ETF, is up 4% –eeeeek!
I can’t believe so many people used to compare Obama to Kennedy. The two presidents couldn’t be more different. I recommend a comparison of the two at http://www.yallaland.com
#62, what do you mean by “finish the Korean War?” Finish it how? We were at a stalemate with a half-million Chinese. What do you propose we should have done? Nuke China, as MacArther had suggested? Go to war with the most populace country on the planet? Could you imagine, just a half dozen years or so after WWII, being caught in a protracted war of attrition against an unattritionable enemy, an enemy skilled and angry, fresh and invigorated from victory?
You don’t make sense.
We did finish the Korean War. We liberated South Korea and brought and end to the bloodbath. The aftermath is not our fault. The Chinese and North Koreans created that mess. We should be pressuring China to bring an end to the RoK’s loony ruling dynasty. We should only engage militarily if South Korea is formally invaded.
JMJ
11. DUTCH in Atlanta, GA
With a weak US President, the bad guys feel they can do pretty much as they please. Which one is next?
Yep, that’s pretty much it. As American Thinker decribed him, “he’s an effete academic weakling,” and that was before he got elected.
No one has ever come up with a better description of him in my mind than that one.
What are we to really do to stop the shakedown by the NoKs? We will do what we have done for years because there is no way we are goingto sacrifice a couple hundred thousand lives or a few billion in aid to the wackos of the North. We can piss and moan all day about who does and doesn’t have the stones to stand up to this yahoo, but the fact remains we aren’t ready to go to war to put an end to the BS. Most of the comments are street corner tough, but are just hot air. I fully agree with Jersey on this one becuase we couldn’t do anything then and we sure can’t do anything different today.
If we were so screwed up in our economy, we might have been able to bring pressure on China to curb their mutt. That is out of the question when we are walking around hat in hand asking the bad old commies to fund our debt. You want to do something about it then back a balanced budget and paying off the national debt, then we can speak as equals with the Chinese and get something done about the wacko to the north.
#82 – Finally to simply say Seoul isn’t my capitol etc. is to say to the world, “Hey the US will cut and run on any “ally” we may say we have. Not a good message. – Habu
Re-read the context of my original post again; you have misinterpreted my comments. “Seoul isn’t my capital” in the sense that while I might unleash the dogs of war on an old adversary that dearly needs it, the lives of a million Korean civilians are at stake, not MY family’s life.
So, the SK’s will probably tread a bit lighter than Old Salt and Habu would, since they have skin in the game. In fact, I have a few old friends on the Southern part of the country whose family’s deserve to survive.
I do think that SK’s entire world view is going to change rapidly. As with America post 9/11, the rose colored classes come off after they are covered with blood. SK may in fact, start evacuating Seoul and preparing for war. I’d love to see the smirk on the Dear Leader’s face when he realizes that the SK’s are going to stand up.
Ditto goes for China. If you remember Bush’s famous quote about what he worried about at night, and the moment of candor of the Chinese premier, the Chinese leader’s thoughts were on 25 Million jobs a year, NOT when will the Nork’s kick SK asses.
At this point in China’s (r)evolutionary cycle, I do not see the Chinese going to the mat, or sacrificing 20 years of hard earned trade gains to back the idiot in NK on a fools errand. The Chinese are not the Japanese; they will carefully weigh the financial transaction before committing to nuclear war in defense of North Korea, merely to “save face”.
Old Salt
If America hadn’t helped to radicalize these countries with it’s poor understanding of history and today continue to keep the tension high there would be no problem. All U.S. troops should leave S. Korea and the 2 countries left to befriend one the other as it should be. U.S. foreign policy has been one unmitigated disaster after another since the end of World War II. Our ignorance of history and the uses of subtlety have doomed us to being the most hated nation on earth. How have Americans benefited from any of it? I do not aspire to be a policeman to the world. Let them sort out their own hatreds, rivalries, bigotry and massacres. Why should I have to get groped or radiated at an airport because the American gov’t can’t stop rattling sabres? Stop all immigration now! It is literally killing us and every war we get involved in brings in more of the disenfranchised. Will it be a bunch of North or South Koreans next? Get out of there already.
Sorry for the typos, but for some reason my spell check isn’t working. It should be: “We will do what we have done for years because there is no way we are going to sacrifice a couple hundred thousand lives over a few billion in aid.”
Who Goes First, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad or Kim Jong-il?
The field has come down to two insane despots, Iran’s Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and North Korea’s Kim Jong-il. The question comes down to which of those two crazies will be first to precipitate a nuclear holocaust, the twice-elected Iranian 54 year old nut or the never-elected 69 year old fruitcake in North Korea?
It’s a bewilderment, I tell you, an absolute bewilderment, even if some would emphasize that the dynamic duo wouldn’t be the first country to nuke another country. The United States has undisputed claim to that first since we dropped ”Little Boy” and ”Fat Man” on, respectively, Hiroshima and Nagasaki to end World War Two.
We also can proudly lay claim to being the only nation in the history of the planet to possses the ability to bring every other nation on the planet to its knees, enslave them if we had such a mind, and have them pay billions in tribute in perpetuity. We chose not to do any of that and instead chose to rebuild a devastated world.
It can only be speculated as to whether the Communist U.S.S.R. or the Communist People’s Republic of China–or today’s Iran or North Korea–would have picked that option, speculated only by the terminally naive.
However, back to our two contemporary loonies, Mahmoud and Kim, either or both of whom would have gleefully reduced the globe to glowing, radioactive dust had they been able 65 years ago and, as they themselves gasped their last glowing, radioactive breaths, still have blamed someone else. . .
(Read more at http://www.genelalor.com/blog1/?p=2793)
Re #95 Markets.
Emerald PIG; SNAFU
Green party (minor partners in governing coalition, with about 3% of popular vote but all of their deputies getting ministerial positions) has announced it will crash the coalition – but not quite yet, maybe january or feb.
There is an attempt within Fianna Fail (National Socialist lite -totally populist, blatantly serving vested interests in the banks and property development and the largest party in the governing coalition) to replace Brian Cowan (also known as BIFFO – Bloody Ignorant Fecker From Offaly), the party leader and chief minister of the Republic.
The main opposition coalition of Fienna Gael (centre right – Christian Democrat) and Labour (union owned democratic socialists) have been invited into the talks with the IMF and the Eurocrats. They will be the next Gov whenever the time comes, possibly with labour as the bigger partner – this is a change as F. Fail and F. Gael, the two centre right parties have been the two biggest parties in the republic, since they split over the treaty dividing the island (F.gael under Michael Collins was pro treaty, F. Fail under Devalera was anti treaty – F.Gael won the resulting civil war but F.Fail has been the main party of Gov for most of the time since that war)
one socialist party member of the european parliament staged a walkout of a meeting of Irish MEPs and the european central bank – he’s more interested in ego trips than in trying to find out what is happening.
European Stockmarkets are down around 2%, though it is difficult to know whether Paddy’s Shenanigans or the Norks are more to blame.
I really think that Richard may be right about the ability to stabilise the yoyo. it could easily capsize.
I was on a long drive today (5 hours) so pleanty of listening to the radio.
Much wailing and gnashing of teeth as raiments were wrent…
There were some amusingly provocative texts read out, along the lines of rejoining the UK – at least the island would be reunited and there would be devolved government, plus Ireland would have a proportionately larger voice in the London Parliament than it does in the European Parliament, and the pound is a much smaller currency, more able to assume a favourable level for economic development (no one mentioned a Bankrupt Scotland doing that exact thing in 1717).
Also, many texts bemoaning voting yes in the re-run of the referendum on the Lisbon treaty.
The non English language European papers are pretty much headlining with call for the Irish to stop messing about as the bond markets are getting worried about the remainder of the Euro zone.
73. Habu: How many time do we have to get slapped around before we take these countries out of play? Will it take NYC or DC to get nuked before we get serious about their threats?
We can’t just sprinkle fairy dust on the challenge and hope it goes away, but we can nuke ‘em out of play.
I’m not sure what world you believe we live in but I’m pretty sure it’s not one in which tactical nuclear weapons are even considered an option.
To answer your hyperbole, yes, it would take something on the magnitude of a mass casualty event in the West for that to change. That’s what history dictates. Whether you want to call the West’s outlook ‘realist’ or complacent, it cannot change without large-scale disaster.
This is not so say that DC or NYC is actually on NK’s ToDo list. To the contrary, NK would have nothing to gain. NoKo’s leaders are mafiosi (with a touch of old fashion racial bigotry,) not ones who are looking to upset the game.
NK is exploiting the current political economic situation by harassing the South because serious responses are not an option. Aggressive US and/or SK action undoubtedly cause major disruption to world markets and international politics.
Total war campaigns aren’t on the menu and haven’t been for quite some time.
Obama is an empty suit who says what ever his teleprompter has been programmed to say by the “men behind the curtain”. When he’s off the TOTUS, he sounds like Professor Erwin Cory. China holds our debt and all the cards when its comes to the Korean peninsula. Imagine if we had a real defense policy, we wouldn’t allow the Fed to devalue the dollar, and we wouldn’t be trillions in debt because we shipped most of our industries to China and Southeast Asia. What do we make in the US anymore? Even Boeing outsources to China. I doubt that this “spat” will escalate into WWIII, but if it does, the US may end up at war with the Chinese ( their military has been planning for this for years) and that will end very badly for everyone. Our capacity to wage war has been severely restricted since the “Peace Dividend” was initiated by Clinton and our Navy is vulnerable to Chinese missile technology. Lets hope this doesn’t escalate and we can get a handle on our economy and stop being in denial.
We will pay the blackmail money because we are in no position to do otherwise until we fix our economy and national debt. It makes very little difference who is occupy the WH, when you are a debtor nation that needs natural resources (oil). We can’t do a darn thing about NoK or Iran. How does it feel to have the biggest “stick”, which turns out to be a limp noodle because you are a beggar.
China (hopefully) has too much to loose to allow the Norks to start a full blown War.
There are tens of millions in China who have tasted economic development, I think the central comittee of the commi party would rather euthenise their little gangster neighbours than risk facing the disorder that a drop in living standards at home would bring.
China is absolutely obsessed with avoiding the kind of chaos that followed the fall of communism in the Soviet Union.
That said, I think they will happily push the US and allies to find out just where the boundaries are and what they are made of. Are they razor wire, or paper?
The Iranian millenialists are a far more dangerous threat. The Norks may believe in “Progress” but they can’t abdicate all responsibility for what happens with a shrug of the shoulders and an “insha allah” the way the muzzies do with setting up rocket launches in school and hospital grounds.
That, and Commies don’t believe in 72 virgins and a bunch of pretty little boys greased up and waiting for them in heaven, or that some long dead imam will return to earth if they kill plenty infidels.
Washington kicks the can down the road…no huevos!
Washington spurns Tokyo’s demand for reprisal against North Korea
DEBKAfile Exclusive Report November 23, 2010, 8:11 PM (GMT+02:00)
Tags: Japan-US Noth Korea-South Korea clash Yeonpyeong island shelled
USS George Washington in Korean waters
Washington roundly condemned the North Korean Nov. 23 artillery attack on the populated South Korean island of Yeonpyeong on the Yellow Sea border, calling on North Korea to halt its belligerent action and abide by the terms of the 1953 armistice agreement. But the Obama administration was clearly not about to meet Japanese pressure for joint military action in support of Seoul or reinforce its fighting forces on the peninsula – even as a deterrent. Two South Korean marines were killed and 17 soldiers and 3 civilians injured as the flames engulfed the targeted island.
A Pentagon spokesman also said it was too early to discuss redeploying US tactical nuclear arms to South Korea, a possibility raised by South Korea’s Defense Minister Kim Tae-young Monday when North Korea’s parade of its uranium enrichment and light water plants came to light.
The Japanese Prime Minister Naoto Kan’s second demand in his call to President Barak Obama after the North Korean attack was to convene an urgent UN Security Council meeting. That too went unheeded. The session France announced would take place Tuesday night was indefinitely postponed.
It’s 3 PM, are there still just two Koreas?
It smells like a diversion.
That being written, I would love to see a complete attack on all NK military assets. Mostly, I am tired of reading about a backward POS country being a problem, and I just would love to see America use 1/4 of it’s power to shock the CHICOMMS.
Bueno de Mesquite’s method is controversial but the accuracy of his results are not – better than 90% predicting the behavior of complex organizations. He does it with game theory but the key part is that his decision making focus is on how the potential outcomes would affect the status of the most influential individuals in the decision making process.
I like that because it junks the whole theory that complex organizations, a state in this case, always act rationally and in their own best interest. We know that people often act emotionally and make decisions that they believe will bolster their self esteem and their status, even when the outcome will almost certainly harm any other interests they may have.
My guess is that Lil’ Kim is making his bones with the NORK military. Unless Lil’ Kim has the absolute assurance of the Chicoms that he will be the next big man, regardless of what happens, it does not seem likely that he has any advantage to creating a larger conflict. The NORKS have shelled that island before.
Sigintel #109: I wonder what “no huevos” is in Japanese? This El Foldo by our “leaders” is going to accelerate the re-thinking and re-aligning of our erstwhile allies. Had to happen, I suppose; but it’s painful, and likely to become a lot more so.
So, this doesn’t warrant a UN Security Council meeting? Well, either that points to the relative modesty of the event –hey, only a few dead, some buildings blown up and burnt, what’s the big deal?– or it points to the absolute impotence of the Council. A talking-shop, and a bloody expensive one at that.
While I appreciate your desire to show the CHICOMMS what for, are you ready for the total economic meltdown that will follow? How about we go put Iran in its place, while we are dropping bombs. I am no Dove, but our economy is our biggest national defense liability and until we fix that we won’t be shaking our big stick at anyone, unless you want to be laughed at because of our impotence. I love and fully support our strong military, but our politicians have spent us up a creek without a paddle.
We need to let Washington know that the gravy train is over and to pay off the national debt. It is much better to be a world power that can influence other people’s actions by loaning to them vice a paper tiger with hat in hand begging for someone to cover our spendthrift ways. I was embarrassed to be lectured by the commies on monetary policy because they were 100% correct.
Best case scenario:
Military coup here. Restoration of the Republic after a short, nasty civil war. As Heine once said, “We must forgive our enemies, but not before they are hanged.”
Announcement to the world in general: “Threaten our civilization and yours is forfeit.” Demonstration on selected Islamic capitols.
Decapitation strike on Pynongyang and selected NK military installations. Message to Chinese Communist leadership: “Three Gorges Dam. Like it? Want to keep it? Then sit back down and STFU.”
Can you hear us now?
“Oderint dum metuant…”
Otherwise, we kiss our civilization goodbye. And soon.
Move Seoul away from artillery attacks? Yeah, kinda like move San Fran away from earthquakes?
There is no hope for the US under Obama-Clinton. All things predicted for an America Under Weaklings is coming to pass. Expect more pressure on Israel over apartment balcony expansions in suburban Jerusalem.
“In the wake of this unacceptable escalation by North Korea, and given the ability of the Israel-Palestine Conflict to exacerbate conflicts around the world, we at the State Dept implore PM Netanyahu to end his needless provocation of the agrarian eccentrics in Pyongyang.”
Why not?
32 – No-sensey
This one’s for you. (with apologies to the Soggy Bottom Boys in the classic O Brother, Where Art Thou)
He’s in the basement now
He’s in the basement now
I told him once or twice
To quit postin’ drivel and tellin’ lies
He’s in the basement now
Well I knew a blog troll named No-sensey
whose silly ideas had no defense; he
thought he was the smartest guy on line
But I found out last Monday
That basement got locked up Sunday
Parents feed him through a slot in the door
He’s in the basement now
He’s in the basement now
I told him once or twice
To quit postin’ drivel and tellin’ lies
He’s in the basement now
Well he broke out last Tuesday
Trolled the blogs he knew and
Showed everyone he was a keyboard clown
Well he started to post his nonsense
Brains devoid of content
Busted when they took his link down.
He’s in the basement now
He’s in the basement now
I told him once or twice
To quit postin’ drivel and tellin’ lies
He’s in the basement now
Sure Sensei, I’d love to join the military, but they won’t take me. Write a letter to your congressman and senators demanding that they abolish the discriminatory prohibition on high-functioning autistics serving in the military.
I would think that it’s time to start reinforcing US military forces in South Korea. A subtle show of force and commitment should bring North Korea to the negotiation table.
Probably will have to move some Patriot missiles and Aegis BMD equipped ships into the area just in case…as well as nuclear armed US ships/planes/etc…
Also probably a good idea to ship the reinforcements/supplies over with full naval escort…just in case the situation gets too sensitive…
oMan 113#….it appears that our leader has never played a game of poker in his life….stud, three card draw or Texas hold’em…the cat ain’t cut out for dealing with the REAL THING, we are at WAR and the milk toast in the White House with his “lets all diet” wife (after many extravagant international pig outs) are completely removed from reality. When we are eye ball to eye ball with serious enemies and our leadership gets blinkey like Nancy Pelosi at a State of The Union speech by Obama …well you know what’s next…KA BOOM.
Economic meltdown? Is that what you call DaOne’s economic policy?
The world would get the message, and Iran would cry to the UN. Of course, in the New Age we hold hands, talk, and continue to issue strongly worded letters to bullies.
Question. Why secure SK borders, when Americas southern border is being invaded by Marxists?
Hmmm Iran or North Korea?Is it too much to ask to take them both of them out of the picture?I mean cmon ,armistice violations is an act of war for cryin out loud!
Keep wagging that finger yeah thatll do some good.Or extort western economies some more ,yeah thatll work.Not one more penny to these dicktators.
114. Sandy Salt
I hate to say it, but you’re right. We can’t be a superpower when we’re in debt up to our eyeballs and most of our industry has gone overseas.
Of course, this is a feature, not a bug to the leftist and internationalist elites. I’ve been saying for years that they can’t create their world government until they first destroy the U.S. economy and the U.S. military. They’ve nearly completed the first part. The second will occur after our economy collapses and we can no longer afford the military.
rickl,
We are not far off from the second as you hear daily calls to gut the military to balance the budget. I do believe that we could do without half of the flag officers, but that won’t fix the national debt. This is the most depressed I have been over our financial crisis because it is evident that the rest of the world has now seen us for the paper tiger we now are.
OMG! Who gives a CRAP about Iran? And honestly, can’t South Korea afford it’s own military? Let them spend the money, let them lose the soldiers, let them fight their own battles.
I’m confused — again! Since Prussian days (or earlier), don’t countries have General Staffs & Diplomatic Staffs that prepare plans for potential human-caused contingencies (or whatever the Poltically Correct term is)?
Norks fire heavy weapons across the border? Rip open envelope D-12 and implement the plan, with modifications as required by the specific circumstances.
Doesn’t someone on the US President’s massive staff carry around a bunch of outline statements to give him guidance in the event of — whatever “Events” come his way?
126. rechill
Your comment really deserves no response but I find it hard to restrain myself from calling you an idiot. You are obviously a novice at international relation…but fear not you’re good for a hearty laugh.
Read every comment. Few mention at all the NorK’s motivations.
China OWNS NK. 90% of essential things, NK gets from China. They are doing this purely with China’s okay. They do not fart without permission from China.
Is Li’l Kim making his bones? Yes.
Does it highlight Obama’s weakness? Yes.
To whom does it highlight it? Everyone.
Does it send a message? Yes. There’s a new sheriff in town.
Might they get tribute from this? Yes.
Is there any risk at all for them? No.
It is all upside for them and no downside.
Why doesn’t China do it directly herself rather than use a proxy? Because direct provocation is more provocative. It might force us to oppose them. It might give us the spine we need. Think Pearl Harbor. We are weak, because we lack the national will to fight. We are NOT weak in capability. As long as they do not push too far too fast, they can achieve their goals of domination, and we’ll sit back and watch it happen.
This is good politics by the Chinese. They have gauged it just right.
Is it 2013 yet?
105. bastiches
How silly you are. Nuclear proliferation is on a very steep acendant slope on a global scale and you’re dopey enough to say they shouldn’t even be brought up in the context of a first strike.
Wake up dude. One day some rogue state will acquire them and launch them at their enemy du jure or used them for endless nuclear blackmail. How do you stop those events? Preemption.
Don’t tell me..you voted for Obama.
80. oMan
Certainly their would be horrendous casualties. Wars do that. But your scenario is fantasy in that NK will use the Taepodong 2 with a nuke tip to obliterate, say LA or SFO. Certainly South Korea.
Are you of the opinion the nuclear genie can be put back in the bottle? Atomic weapons have already been used twice and now hydrogen weapons are spreading like weeds. Do you really think they won’t be used again by some nutball country or even a drug cartel? If so you’re in serious denial.
China won’t do anything because they need our markets and all we would need to do is default on the bonds they hold and they would be up shit creek. Sure it would hurt our bond rating but Obama is already working on that.
Plus we’re plum outta blackmail money.
Stoicheion @38:
If you were only talking about conventional artillery, I would agree that a quarter million deaths in 20 minutes is fear mongering. Regrettably, the NorKs are one the worlds foremost users of chemical weapons. Both their doctrine and training call for early and widespread use of chemical agents in any wide-scale conflict with the South.
All U.S. forces stationed on the Korean Peninsula, or tasked with that theater for deployment, are somewhat equipped to, and train rigorously for survival and operations in a contaminated chemical weapons environment. The ROK military has similar if somewhat less sophisticated training and equipment.
The civilian population of Seoul on the other hand does not. Compared to most American cities, Seoul has an outstanding civil defense infrastructure, but as you pointed out it is a huge, densely populated city. Much of the civil defense infrastructure dates from the 1960s, 70s, and 80s, when the threat of war seemed much more imminent to ROK politicians (and before the high-tech economic boom that made civil defense jobs projects not only redundant for economic weal but a labor intensive obstruction). The continued growth of Seoul has completely outstripped the civil defense facilities and equipment available to the vast majority of the cities population.
I believe it was last year, Israel embarked on an expensive program to fit and equip every citizen with an effective gasmask. To the best of my knowledge there is no similar program anywhere else in the world, and nearly everywhere else such a program would be wasted money. The only other spot on earth where such a program is really needed is in the large cities of South Korea.
If the Norks are serious, if they “go all in” it’s not going to be 250,000 dead it’ll be ten times that number, and untold millions more permanently disabled from chemical weapons exposure. The world hasn’t dealt with mass casualties of chemical weapons since the First World War. Since then, weapons have become much more effective and most victims simply die, a horribly painful and none to quick death.
Let’s pray that things either calm down, or that we and the ROK take Habu’s advise and strike decisively first to completely decapitate the Nork command & control structures so that no orders to fire those tubes ever reaches them.
The Obama administration is weak, but the USA certainly is not. Americans prefer to let military crises build up to ghastly proportions so as to insure that we will take a profit alongside our Victory. Go USA!
Caught today’s Barbara Walters’ interview w/ Obama. Why is he giving cagey exclusive interviews on days when the Norks shell the South Koreans? It’s a hot foreign policy issue, tailor made for a President for good or ill, to step up to the plate and at least re-assure people.
But it _was_ cagey. The Obvious Question came, a la, “Is there going to be a military response? Warships moving in, troop movements, posture changes, etc?” Obama answered, “Now is not the time for this kind of speculation.”
Speculation? Who would be asking for the President to speculate? People want to know about decisions, facts, resolves, or just about anything rather than speculation. You go to a pundit for speculation, and the President of the United States is not a pundit. He’s an actor, meaning one who acts. Not speculates. Not who sits there on the sidelines providing the “vision for change” or whatnot.
This has been said to death, but here we are again: this guy Obama just sucks. He’s weaksauce. For whatever reason he’s simply not getting the job done. It’s embarrasing, and worse it’s dangerously unsettling.
Surely the sane response to this latest provocation from North Korea was to destroy the artillery positions that launched the attack.
I’d do something, but I’m headed for the airport to get my b*lls scratched by a stranger.
stoicheion,
By your math I postulated a 2.5% casualty rate for South Korea in the initial exchange. This is reasonable given the possibility of up to 200 long range M-1989 170mm “Koksan” shells landing in civilian populated areas along with several liquid fueled, read first strike only, Nodong-A, a few NK-02 SCARAB variants, and several hundred of the FROG-7 ballistic missiles. A nice unclassified study is the “Bluffers Guide.”
My expectation is that the DPRK will launch what it has in the knowledge that they will not get a second chance. I clearly said that after that first strike the superiority of the South Korean forces, with the US participating, should shatter the North Koreans. The large civilian population of Seoul is a liability and not an asset.
Remember a few facts.
Hundreds of civilians just died in a stampede in Cambodia, how many thousands or tens of thousands would die attempting to flee Seoul under fire?
Mass civilian casualties can be achieved by means that are not rational from a purely military perspective. These would include the use of a dirty nuclear device as well as chemical agents. Given the size and proximity of the civilian target my estimate of the cost of the war to the civilian population in the South is not unreasonable. My hope would be that the ROKs institute a series of evacuation drills to reduce the loss but given that the DPRK has the first mover advantage losses will happen. In addition the ROK must consider the humanitarian disaster that will befall the starving population of the presumably soon to be former DPRK who will become their responsibility.
Your inclusion of an ad hominem that I was cowardly for noting these commonly accepted risks was offensive and unfitting for a serious conversation. It does not matter if you consider yourself as one of the conservatives or a one of the socialists, by resorting to such a personal attack to prevent someone else participating in this forum you have hurt this blog and proved yourself to be not worth further conversation. From the Left trolls I expect that abuse and expect to see it get rebuked but I see that such language is considered tolerable here among those who say they stand for more respectable values.
For my part I will read the topics and may post a word to subscribe to a thread, unfortunately PJM does not offer a simple option to just subscribe without posting, but I doubt I will consider this a home.
Whatsso4me @134:
“Americans prefer to let military crises build up to ghastly proportions so as to insure that we will take a profit”
I’m surprised you didn’t bring up “NO BLOOD FOR OIL!”
I’m still waiting for my $0.50 / gallon gasoline.
What profit do we hope to gain in Afghanistan, one of the most backward, least developed sh!t holes on the planet. Thank God parts of it are beautiful, and many of the native tribes are great people so long as you are just visiting and don’t have to live at their mercy or as an enemy.
What profit have we realized from Iraq?
How about from Serbia? We spent, and continue to spend billions protecting the Muslims of the former Yugoslavia. Where’s the profit?
Habu,
It’s great to see you back and in fine form. I look forwar to your comments. Has anyone heard from Subotai recently?
Ned
Two Step Strategy:
1) Sink the Pueblo
2) Invade
Keep in mind that the NORKS declared the Armistice null and void two years ago.
We have the authority in place to take that place out. Go do it!
Habu #131: I hope I’m not in denial, although my efforts in this thread to adopt the quietist policy, rather than my usual “nuk’em now” stance, are definitely messing with my head. Of course you are correct, if the Norks decide to light it up, they will use everything they have, the whole NBC portfolio, and there will be lots of dead and dying. And the retaliation will be, should be, massive. Both because it will take a lot of megatons to winkle-out the Nork facilities they’ve been tunneling under the mountains for decades to emplace; and because we want to make sure they don’t get a second strike. And also because their leadership needs killin’ in a big way. And, finally, because if we do have to retaliate, we will be doing it to send a message to the rest of the world. That message should be, “Slow to anger, and then terrible in our wrath. Do. Not. Eff. With. Us.” We will have paid bigtime to deliver that message, so we better make sure it’s heard loud and clear.
In Tehran and every other corner where similar madmen and pirates have set up shop. I don’t think the nuclear genie can be returned to the bottle –technology gets commoditized– but I do hope the incentives to invoke the genie can be managed sensibly. One proposal that I like is assured destruction of everybody who’s a known troublemaker, if there is any trouble at all. The problem of showing causality will be finessed, and it will be the mad mullahs’ job to ensure nothing bad happens to trigger the counterstrike. Messy, nerve-racking, unstable, yes. But at least it will be them worrying first and most; not us.
habu/132; China won’t do anything because they need our markets –are you sure that’s not a red herring? Not a rhetorical question.
http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20101123-716001.html
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/china-russia-to-drop-dollar-in-bilateral-trade-2010-11-23
“62, what do you mean by “finish the Korean War?” Finish it how? We were at a stalemate with a half-million Chinese. What do you propose we should have done? Nuke China, as MacArther had suggested? Go to war with the most populace country on the planet? Could you imagine, just a half dozen years or so after WWII, being caught in a protracted war of attrition against an unattritionable enemy, an enemy skilled and angry, fresh and invigorated from victory?
“You don’t make sense.
“We did finish the Korean War. We liberated South Korea and brought and end to the bloodbath. The aftermath is not our fault. The Chinese and North Koreans created that mess. We should be pressuring China to bring an end to the RoK’s loony ruling dynasty. We should only engage militarily if South Korea is formally invaded.”
No, we didn’t finish the Korean War for if we did there would be only ONE Korea, not NORTH AND SOUTH Korea. We would not have a Demilitarized Zone that forms an artificial border for both countries, we would not have Eisenhower supporting the UN-signed Armistice declaring an end to hostilities but NOT an end to the war (which North Korea recently declared null and void) and the war would not become known as America’s “forgotten war” because there would have been a proper conclusion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War
It’s you who don’t make sense on this issue, Jersey. There were no good choices in the Korean War, but the worse choice is now obvious: As a result of not finishing the Korean War not only did China get nuclear weapons, but North Korea did as well. Yes, we would have to face off at several hundred thousand Chinese, but we had military strength (not least of which we had nukes, they didn’t). Now we live with the result of that decision today. The entire point of my previous post to yours was to show you that ALL decisions have consequences and what may seem as the most prudent decision may turn out to be the most worse decision. We made the worse decision because at the end of the day we worried about so many dying Chinese and dying Koreans and dying Americans. Well, we had many dying Americans in so many wars afterwards and so many dying Chinese and North Koreans due to the brutal nature of communism and totalitarianism. Now, the latter two are more dangerous than ever.
This mess, unfortunately, was one of our making because we feared the alternatives then and decided we should kick the can down the road. Now, it’s time for one of our future presidents to finally pick up that can, because the current surely won’t.
144. Chris Bolts Sr
Chris,your point are well taken. We could have nuked them and they would have had no response. They had NO nukes, their army was on foot and few could walk across the Pacific, we had total air superiority, we had kicked their butts back across the 38th parallel.
Shear numbers does not make an army unbeatable. We should have and still today nuke them.
Oh, I forgot about the no “isolationists” policy in this blog’s comments.
Time to stop being lapdogs. Drop a tactical nuke on the launchers of the missiles. If they do it again drop 2. Keep escalating till they stop stop provocating.
Is this a result of the chickens coming home to roost? Like World War I which never finalized anything, leading to WWII, the Korean War was never finalized, either. The Indochina War didn’t finalize anything, leading to the Vietnam War. During the Korean War maybe MacArthur was right – “Nuke China” he advocated, which got him fired by Truman, who as a previous poster said, just “kicked the can down the road”, in effect making it our problem today. The Korean War never had closure, and there will be consequences.
AXIS OF EVIL NORTH KOREA STRIKES SOUTH KOREA AGAIN
After doing nothing to punish the nuclear bullies of Communist North Korea for the sinking last March of the Cheonan, killing 46 of its South Korean crew, expect more of the same or worse from our weak, incompetent bungler-in-chief in response to today’s unprovoked attack on Yeonpyeong Island. I say “worse” because North Korea’s economy is imploding and Kim Jong Il wants a new round of concessions from Obama and the West and will likely get them thus continuing Bill Clinton’s dangerous policy of extreme appeasement-which is greatly responsible for the sinking of the ship and yesterday’s provocative attack . The numeric signs that I’ve discovered seem to confirm as a warning to Obama the consequences he will suffer to his presidency and legacy for following the failed policies of the past and chosing weakness over strength in dealing with Kim………
Click my name for the rest of this widely posted article on my NUMBER ONE blog at townhall.com
The big question now that we’re sending an aircraft carrier is: What will President Obama do when the North Koreans sink it with a torpado?
The question must be asked NOW rather than after it happens.
I’m afraid that our College-Professor-In-Chief hasn’t given any thought to this and will be completly paralyzed if it happens.
I wonderif he wishes he had a real Secretary of State instead of a failed opponent who got the job to keep her out of trouble…