Where the Old Flotilla Lay
The ‘aid flotilla’ bound for Gaza met the immovable object and the resulting clash, under circumstances yet only sketchily described, may have resulted in 16 protester deaths and 6 IDF personnel injured. The LA Times reported that “Israel had vowed to intercept the boats, by force if necessary, and tow them to the Israeli port of Ashdod, where passengers would be arrested or deported.” The Turks, who were heavily represented in the flotilla, have already called in the Israeli ambassador. There is almost certainly going to be an denunciation of Israeli actions from Europe. The incident will mean that Prime Minister Netanyahu’s forthcoming visit to Washington will be even frostier and more difficult than expected.
Relations between Washington and Israel were already at near historic lows. Now it looks like we ain’t seen nothing yet. But the immediate headlines should not obscure the 3 trends which are driving up tensions in the region and threaten to drive them up further. The first is Iran’s continuing search for a nuclear weapon, a development which Israel views as near existential threat. The second is the buildup of Hezbollah missiles which can reach all the major Israeli population centers from launching sites in Lebanon. And the third are the unintended consequences of President Obama’s diplomacy which has resulted in the singling out of Israel’s undeclared nuclear arsenal at the month long Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty conference in New York. Like a circular-running torpedo it managed to miss its every intended target — missing North Korea and Iran — while hitting Israel.
The United States got few of the specific goals it sought at the conference, such as penalties for nations that secretly develop nuclear weapons, then quit the pact (think North Korea). … And the conference’s final document singled out Israel’s suspected nuclear program — but not Iran’s secret facilities, which many think are part of an effort to build an atomic bomb.
Eli Lake, writing for the Washington Times, notes that the NPT conference threatened to unravel the long standing policy of turning a blind eye to Israel’s nukes in exchange for an assurance not to brandish them.
Israel and the U.S. have since 1969 had a secret understanding on the Jewish state’s nuclear arsenal. Avner Cohen, a senior fellow at the Center for Nonproliferation Studies and the author of the definitive account of Israel’s nuclear history, “Israel and the Bomb,” has called the understanding “don’t ask, don’t tell.” In exchange for Israel not publicly disclosing its nuclear weapons, the United States does not pressure Israel to join the NPT and shields Israel from pressure to join the treaty.
In May 2009, Mr. Netanyahu received assurances from Mr. Obama that this secret understanding was still in effect.
Whether this is still believed is a matter for debate. The Washington Times article quotes a senior Republican staffer who works on nonproliferation issues as saying “this is the first time a U.S. administration has placed a greater priority on getting a consensus NPT review conference document than on America’s traditional role as protecting Israel’s nuclear ambiguity.” Certainly the Palestinian Authority believes that a yawning gap has opened up between the US-Israeli alliance, if indeed it can still be said to exist. The Jerusalem Post quotes the London-based Al-Quds Al-Arabi newspaper as saying, “President Abbas told Mitchell that the Israelis are no longer peace partners as much as the Americans are … the Palestinian Authority is negotiating with Washington and not with Tel Aviv.”
Together those three developments — the shadow of the Iranian nukes, the missiles of Hezbollah and the loss of American support — may have fostered a regional perception that Israel is vulnerable. Certainly the flotilla organizers could not have been insensible to the rising pressure on Israel and were determined to exploit it, nor was it lost on the IDF that if they showed weakness in the face of the flotilla there would be more to follow. In one sense the flotilla put to sea on the perceived political tides and were met by IDF elements sailing on the contrary currents. The result was a clash inconsequential in itself, but not in the sparks that it may generate.
The problem is that the strategy of pressuring Israel to win brownie points with the Arab world and get the peace negotiations moving is a two edged sword. Its proponents may hope that it will provide space for the diplomats to maneuver. Having failed for decades to pull on the Arab side of the rope, they will now try the Israeli end. But it also emboldens Israel’s enemies and makes the Jewish state that much more paranoid. The combination of Syrian and Iranian thrusting and the Israeli determination to defend itself at all costs can lead to a dangerous situation. Certainly there is enough explosive in the region to make things dangerous. Recently, the Times of London reported that Israeli nuclear armed submarines are now on rotating patrol off Iran’s coast.
Three German-built Israeli submarines equipped with nuclear cruise missiles are to be deployed in the Gulf near the Iranian coastline.
The first has been sent in response to Israeli fears that ballistic missiles developed by Iran, Syria and Hezbollah, a political and military organisation in Lebanon, could hit sites in Israel, including air bases and missile launchers.
The submarines of Flotilla 7 — Dolphin, Tekuma and Leviathan — have visited the Gulf before. But the decision has now been taken to ensure a permanent presence of at least one of the vessels.
The flotilla’s commander, identified only as “Colonel O”, told an Israeli newspaper: “We are an underwater assault force. We’re operating deep and far, very far, from our borders.”
Each of the submarines has a crew of 35 to 50, commanded by a colonel capable of launching a nuclear cruise missile.
The vessels can remain at sea for about 50 days and stay submerged up to 1,150ft below the surface for at least a week. Some of the cruise missiles are equipped with the most advanced nuclear warheads in the Israeli arsenal.
The ruins of the American “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy towards Israeli nukes lie before the diplomats like a lost city in a Hollywood B-movie. Unlike the Israeli Air Force, those missiles do not require American permission to transit Iraqi air space to retaliate on Iran. But the bad news is that unlike manned airplanes, missiles are harder to call back and their payloads are likely to be unconventional in the extreme. This exemplifies why the attempt to put the heat on Israel and link its undeclared nuclear arsenal to Iran’s is a dangerous undertaking. Turning this ‘key’ to peace is like trying to safe a complicated bomb where any short, any jar, any wrong move can set off the mechanism. Even the proponents of this strategy should recognize that it risks intensifying regional tensions along the way to their supposed resolution.
What could go wrong? Plenty. But the greatest danger would be missiles fired out of Gaza and Lebanon by Hamas and Hezbollah, two nonstate actors which have shown the willingness to open up into Israeli territory. The London Times quotes an expert as saying “there are more missiles per square foot targeting Tel Aviv than any other city”. With tensions running high in the wake of the flotilla incident there is always the danger that rhetoric will ratchet itself up to the point where some damned fool missile in the Middle East can set off a war involving both Gaza and much of Lebanon. It would have tragic consequences for Lebanon, which would be wrecked yet again by the Israel response, a response that would have to go penetrate exceedingly deep to put the Scuds out of business. And it would be fraught with great peril for the region and beyond.
Turkey has accused Israel of violating International Law. The government of Turkey was in emergency session. The Associated Press is now reporting that protesters are storming the Israeli consulate in Ankara. And only hours have gone by.
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But the immediate headlines should not obscure the 3 trends which are driving up tensions in the region and threaten to drive them up further.
Indeed, the noose is tightening, tightening, ever tightening. Turkey has declared itself another enemy of the Jewish State, a pal of Syria, and an ally of Iran. (Of course, at the same time, the Turkish regime has essentially declared itself an enemy of the Turkish state, but that’s a topic for another day.)
The current US administration, in its wisdom and judgement, believing it knows which way the wind is blowing (like former empires—the USSR, England and France of days of yore), even if it’s has the perfect excuse (that it is doing its utmost for peace—”peace of the brave,” perhaps?) has decided that Israel is no longer an ally and should no longer be perceived as an ally—except to provide a few straws for Israel’s political echelons to grasp and assuage those minions of gullible Jewish-American voters (who dearly wish to be assuaged.)
You did mention “3 trends”—but they’re more like “3 facts”; actually 4:
Missing, though perhaps because it’s too obvious to even state (though for the usual suspects, it’s the elephant in the living room from which they go out of their way to avert their jaundiced gaze): that Hamas and Hezbullah and Iran (Syria, being slightly more discreet)—with all the vast quantity of rockets and missiles at their disposal pointed in the direction of (not only) Tel Aviv—have vowed to destroy the Jewish State. With the Palestinians of the PA, with their demands for “justice,” running political and propagandistic interference—holding their fire as long as they believe that violence is not currently “in their interest”.
Not mentioned, though. No need to, one supposes.
Israel’s “paranoia,” did you say?….
War is hell…
I suggest the so called “peace activists” have been taught a lesson…
Maybe next time they try to support Hamas their ships will be sunk…
Congrats to the IDF that no Israelis were killed.
I wonder if “peace activists” were trying to supply the PKK how nice and loving the Turks would be?
Maybe that’s an excellent IDEA…
Supply the PKK!
Free Kurdistan from the Turks, Iranians, Syrians and Iraqis that SQUAT on their lands…
And while we are at it…
Stop the OCCUPATION of Cyprus…
There’s still a way back from this, at least for now, if the Hezbollah don’t open up with their missiles. Some fire from Gaza is probably in the cards. But that won’t be enough, provided nothing further happens, to touch off the magazine. But if heavy missile fire comes in from the North, then lordy, we’re in a world of pain. What Washington should do now is make calls tout de suite. But what are they going to say? ‘Assad, keep your pecker in your pants or else I’ll complain to the Security Council?’ I hope it’s more persuasive than that. Anyway, they need to put the ice on it quick.
It’s about 3 am in Chicago and near enough that on the East Coast. Here’s the proverbial 3am call for good old Hillary and Barack Obama to field. Let’s hope they are up to it.
Rockets from Gaza already are coming in the last few days….
We’ll be at war in the very near future. Everyone here knows this. As far as I’m concerned, we’re justified in using EVERYTHING we’ve got in the coming conflict. Say goodbye to Teheran, Damascus, & Beirut, who knows, at the rate things are going these days, maybe say goodbye to Ankara as well. This is the result of appeasement & babbling on about ”peace” by all the idiot liberals. The only thing that appeasement brings is war, and on a much larger scale.
When Terry says “we” I think he means Israel. It will be a short battle. I also think Obama will quote Tonto; “What do you mean we, White Man?”
I say battle because Israel has been at ‘war’ since 1948. Only 38 or so more years to go before it equals the 100 years war. One of the reasons it has gone on so long is the politicians don’t know the difference between a firefight (skirmish), a battle, a campaign or a war. The foundation for success at any of them is knowing the difference between them.
What worries me is that ALL the other hot spots that lay smoldering will burst into flames when Israel and the Arabs start their next campaign.
While the cat is away the mice will play. It is no co-ink-see-dink that robbery goes up when the police are dealing with riots.
Next question. Is it coincidence, machination or the natural results of a weak, incompetent POTUS? I think the answer to that will be how many little wars explode into large wars.
If the ME goes crazy, the Norks invade the South and China goes for Tiawan, then we know it was a plot. Of if Turkey gets involved in military action against Israel and Russia picks up the Ukraine en’passant, then we know that Moscow had a hand in things.
SO much for the UN. I sort of hope that the Norks tell the UN to go pound sand.
It will be interesting to exactly what type of “construction supplies” and “food” was on this ship.
It pains me to see what’s happening to Israel right now, and I mean that sincerely. Diplomatically, Israel is being isolated the way it was back around 1949, with few friends and surrounded by enemies. This is not a good thing, because Israel today is a lot better armed and equipped than it was back then. There is a major confrontation about to take place between Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, and possibly Iran, and yet our own government, one of the few friends Israel still has, seems to be going out of its way to undermine Israel’s efforts to simply stay alive.
There have been only a few times in my lifetime that I’ve been thoroughly ashamed of our government, and this is one of those times (one of the others was when we abandoned South Vietnam to its fate, with some horrible consequences taking place as a result of that betrayal). Obama’s administration is selling Israel out right now and, if we’re not careful, that country will go the way of South Vietnam, only this time a hell of a lot of people are going to die in the process, on BOTH sides of that war.
Yet our “brilliant” administration (headed by the most “competant” candidate EVER, followed by a Secretary of State that doesn’t have a clue as to what to do with a president that is way beyond his depth) seems to think that if it remains on the side of the Muslims and abandons Israel, it will score political points with the Muslims and they will “love” us because of our impartiality. What utter nonsense. All we will have achieved is abandoning another friend to the United States in the “hopes” that, by doing so, we will score political points with people who hate us.
Think of it. Suppose there was an unfriendly and openly hostile regime in Mexico right now bent on the destruction of the United States (some would say there already is, but let’s leave that alone for right now). And then a convoy of about 10 ships is headed for Mexico loaded with supplies and possibly even military equipment for the military regime there. Don’t you think the United States would have a right to stop that convoy from reaching its destination?
Oh, that’s right, we already DID something like that with Mexico. It was just before the United States entered World War I and we discovered the Zimmerman Telegram, where Germany was trying to convince Mexico to enter World War I against the United States. As a result of that telegram, the Wilson administration imposed a virtual naval blockade against Mexico. Although we didn’t stop all ships from going into Mexico, the US Navy had the right to search any ship headed for Mexico (and it certainly did, a lot of them). We were defending ourselves, yet the world never seems to want to extend that same courtesy to the Israelis. I wonder why?
Face it, ALL of the Muslim nations, and probably a lot of European nations, want Israel to just go away. Funny thing is, the Jews have seen what happens when Europeans and other countries want Jews to just “go away,” and they’re not about to go anywhere right now, nor should they. If the Obama administration does not come out and fully support the actions the Israeli Navy took today, it will only prove that this current administration is just as anti-semitic as the Europeans.
Good luck, Israel. You’re going to need a lot of it in the next few years, especially after Iran gets its nuclear weapon.
If there is any place on earth where you can draw that clear line in the sand between the stifling darkness of Islam and the light of civilization it is around Israel.
We are cursed by an administration of knaves and fools who know neither courage nor honor.
That’s 16 fewer useful idiots in the world.
Egypt expressed its support for the flotilla, obscuring the fact that it too participates in the blockade of Gaza. “The Flotilla mission was to break the economic blockade on the Gaza Strip and deliver aid to the people of the small Mediterranean enclave. Israel, obviously, believed there was no need for the mission to take place and decided instead to open fire and murder the activists.” Of course, Gaza has a border with Egypt and a crossing, the Rafah crossing, linking the two areas. If Egypt wanted to send Gaza supplies it could have simply landed the flotilla and moved it across the land border.
But of course that wasn’t in the cards. Wikipedia notes that the Rafah crossing “was closed by Israel on 86% of days due to security reasons. It was not opened for the export of goods. In June 2007, it was closed entirely by Egypt after the Hamas takeover of the Gaza Strip. The blockade of Gaza is a joint effort of Egypt and Israel, largely because both perceive Gaza to be run by hostile elements. Egypt is actually lining its border with steel plate underground to discourage tunneling. So although Egypt will make all the right noises condemning Israel, that is in part for Western consumption.
Interestingly, the Egyptians are just now conducting a largely unnoticed crackdown on elements of Muslim Brotherhood which is in opposition to Mubarak, which are hooking up with Hamas, not that the Egyptians are above that themselves.
A report from another regional newspaper says “Supreme State Security Report 404/2010, claims that some elements of the Muslim Brotherhood formed an organizational center dedicated to promoting armed struggle against Israel and conducting military training in conjunction with the Hamas leadership in Gaza.” In particular:
Which is not surprisng at all, since according to the Council for Foreign Relations “Hamas grew out of the Muslim Brotherhood, a religious and political organization founded in Egypt with branches throughout the Arab world.” It is this interlocking of political threads across boundaries that makes things so complicated.
Until the Kemalists retake power in Turkey, it must be considered a mortal enemy.
And that means targeting Ankara and Istanbul with nukes.
Clearly we are here because of Obama’s great misjudgment.
The O’lmighty’s bow, the Cairo speech, his repudiation of friends, emboldened the Arabs. Arabs saw themselves as the strong horse. Time to stick it up the Israelis. Time to round up the usefull idiots. Sadly, time for Arab idiocy.
The Arabs just don’t get it – Israel is changing the currency: first there was Lebanon, then there was Gaza, now there are Flotillas in glorious HDTV.
Bit by bit, the Western dread of violence becomes that bit less. When your way of life is at stake, why not? Now the West lives with drones. Next stop for the West? Rejection of ‘refugees’? A surgical strike on Pakistan?
10 lives one day, 10m the next. Such is devaluation, when pushed to its conclusion.
Pushed too far for me and mine.
ADE
the third are the unintended consequences of President Obama’s diplomacy
Nothing is “unintended.” For B. Hussein O. the destruction of Israel is a goal.
makes the Jewish state that much more paranoid
It is not paranoid when you recognize a real enemy who is determined to kill you.
Israel is at war. It faces an existential threat. Retreat, compromise or even surrender would do nothing to change the goals sought by the Salafists and Khomeinists who control the Ummah. Therefor they must undertake certain steps in the short run to control the tactical situation and additional steps to defeat the Ummah over time. Immediate steps for Israel to take include;
A long term plan to defeat the Ummah and remove its grip on not just Israel but the entire Western community would include the following;
Finally Israel needs to institute the prepositioning of 200 nuclear devices, some small within Western cities and some larger within Islamic regions, in secure shielded locations from which they could eliminate a large section of the Ummah under the Sampson option and make clear that the costs to others of assisting in the destruction of Israel would be unacceptable. Let Putin tear the Moscow subways and sewers apart looking for the bomb before he sends a box of zippo lighters to Iran.
Israel cannot permanently sustain rotating diesel submarines with a 50 day mission window to Iran when their fleet is so small. They need more submarines and they need submarines with greater endurance. In the meantime they need to place MRBMs on converted Merchant ships who can loiter in the Arabian Gulf between Diego Garcia and the Straits of Hormuz.
There is one part of the Gaza flotilla ploy as a propaganda device at this time that we can be grateful for. It makes clear how there is a linkage between the goals and methods of both the antisemitic efforts of supporters of the Ummah, who were heard shouting “khaybar khaybar ya yahud, Jaish Muhammad Sawfa Ya’ud” from the ships off Gaza, and the methods and goals of the Open Borders supporters of La Raza who are marching against Arizona. The two movements may share operational links through Iranian agents operating with Chavez and a known Hezbollah presence in Northern Mexico.
Everyone but fools, knaves and outright anti-semites understands what the purpose of these terror enabling, floating vessels were hell bent on achieving – a PR stunt to ‘prove’ how vicious Israeli forces are.IF only they were vicious enough…..
While the Gazans receive tons ! of aid through our efforts on a regular basis-its stores overflowing with stock-the Gazana are still ! treated as starving wretches. In any case, the IDF could have sunk the ships and saved themselves the trouble, and their forces from getting injured. To my dismay they didn’t. Appeasing as our leaders are prone to being, they were told to give myriad warnings to the terror flotilla, that they must head to Israel’s port, have the cargo inspected, and then sent over to the ‘victims’.Who gives enemy ships so MANY chances?
Of course they declined, as this NEVER was about aid.Fast forward (to the terror flotillas pre-planned results) as well armed lynch mobs attacked IDF commandos-who had EVERY legal right, according to maritime law AND the Oslo Accords, to stop these ships for inspections-and of course the IDF returned fire. Par for their Islamic course, dead terror enablers make good photo ops, as did Rachel Corrie and others before them.It doesn’t pay to play in the terror sandbox.
At the end of the day, surely Israeli forces were proportional in their response, because other armies would have sunk the damn boats!!
God bless the IDF, and may they have a full recovery. They will be needed in the near future as our enemies are encircling for the kill.This provocation was also meant to further stir up the Islamists(and Israel’s fifth column Arab citizens) to gear for battle.However, I am quite sure that this go around our leaders will take the IDF off its leash and let them take care of business.
LOTM
there is a linkage between the goals and methods of both the antisemitic efforts of supporters of the Ummah, who were heard shouting “khaybar khaybar ya yahud, Jaish Muhammad Sawfa Ya’ud” from the ships off Gaza, and the methods and goals of the Open Borders supporters of La Raza who are marching against Arizona.
That was what I meant when I wrote Rejection of ‘refugees’?, without your clarity.
Good luck, Israel.
You are fighting for all of us.
ADE
I was awaiting with such hope that for once this news could be reviewed with some balance.But sadly no.
You are all intelligent people,you know this isn’t about Iran or Obama.Israel being weak? WEAK! They can clearly do what they want .
Look at the real issues.
These ‘ activists’ are from around the world, including politicians and academics from Israeli allies.
One is Mairead Corrigan Maguire, founder of the Northern Ireland “peace people”, awarded a Nobel Prize in 1976.
European legislators and an elderly Holocaust survivor.
Americans were among the civilians aboard the ships. They include a former ambassador and a former State Department official.
Israeli naval commandos raided the ships while they were in international waters about 80 miles from Gaza’s coast.
Long-time Muslim ally Turkey,was the flag some of the six ships were flying.The boarding of the vessels, all also flying European flag, in international waters is being denounced as an act of “piracy.”
Three of the ships were from Greece, while one sailed from Ireland .
The boats are carrying items that Israel bars from reaching Gaza under the blockade, like cement and other building materials. The activists said they also were carrying hundreds of electric-powered wheelchairs, prefabricated homes and water purifiers.
But U.N. officials and international aid groups say the blockade has been counterproductive, failing to weaken the Islamic militant group while devastating the local economy.
For once will someone on Pajamas media view Israels action’s with some humanity.
The consequences of this is terrifying,to ignore Israels
crimes is astonishing.
mags @ 17.
Oh, please. The frame has been built. We will watch this work itself out inexorably in the next few days. Pray that the missiles do not fly. Take your fake astonishment and kiss your children while you still can. Events are getting too serious for your posturing, now. This is where it starts.
So called ‘Peace Activators’ went into a gun fight against Israeli special forces
with clubs and large tools.
Several of them got killed because they were Stupid.
Stupid is as stupid does-
Forrest Gump
Mags,
Filthy Jew-hating Nazi scum like you will get us ALL killed – Jew and non-Jew -when your Islamonazi allies feel emboldened enough to strike Israel, and she is forced to let the nukes fly.
What will you do when you see the mushroom cloud?
#17
Sir, cannot you recognise a blatant setup when you see one?
Why did the activists refuse to use the Egyptian port offered?
Why did they refuse to use Ashdod?
Why did they refuse to heed warnings?
Why are the organisers allies of Hamas?
Use your loaf on this one – or at least observe in the activist’s OWN video the first IDF member aboard the larger vessel being atatcked on landing by a terrorist wielding a steel bar.
The reflexise anti-semitism of interlocutors such as yourself is a sign of considerable intellectual poverty – at best.
(Yes, I am being extremely generous towards #17)
MarkL
canberra
While the Jews and Israelis on the board are constrained to show the appropriate level of loyalty and defiance in the face of Moslem provocations– to a non Jewish ear the talk of deploying nukes sounds too much like the Götterdämmerung: Twilight of the Gods.
Short of that I like LOTM’s tit for tat in the gaza and if hezbollah gets involved –this time the alawites need to pay. For example if Hezbollah rains rockets down on tel aviv–what the hey–the israelis might do the same for damascus only with better telemetry. it would be a matter debate as to whether they tell the syrians beforehand that that’s what they’ll do–because it is long past time for the alawites to go and a sunni regime to come to power in syria–to cut off iran and square the deal with iraq
Obama will be gone in three years.
comment from freerepublic.
What a cluster goat screw by the IDF. I expected better operational tactics from them.
The IDF should have fabricated a ship-disabling mini-homing torpedo for these contingencies. It would go for the propellers, and instead of expolosives it would unspool clouds of thin kevlar and wire lines to foul the props and stop the ships.
The IDF pioneered UAVs with mini missiles that only destroy one car without breaking windows across the street. You would think they would have had a technical answer for these ships, short of the FUBAR spectacle of boarding them with commandos, on film.
There are already mini-torpedos used as decoys and for other special purposes. These can be used as the existing chassis. Only the homing method and payload would have to be changed.
I think the Arabs have started believing their own lies. One of the lies the Arabs tell themselves is that Israel has won all the battles because the USA has supported Israel.
Now they see that support being removed and go for a provocative action to create a legal fiction to support military action. They will lose this series of battles (a campaign) also.
That is because victory no longer belongs to the bigger battalions, but the more technologically advanced battalions.
Military technology requires education and initiative to work properly. Arab social structure is stuck in the 7th century, where most of the people were serfs. The last thing any tyrant wants is educated serfs with initiative. That ALWAYS leads to the tyrant’s demise. Better to have your army get waxed by the IDF then end up swinging from a moose.
Saddam was an eyeopener for the average ME despot. As many times as Israel has defeated Arab armies, they never hung any despots afterwards.
Better the devil you know.
After the IDF kicks butt this time, they need to reconsider that policy. Since Israel perfected modern targeted assassination techniques, thy need to put them to use.
Let the local despots start to look over their shoulder for UAV’s with Spikes or worry about the headrest in the limo having a small amount of C4 added. I thought that was even better then the Exploding cell phone.
No, mags, what’s astonishing is your naivete. This so-called peace flotilla accomplished exactly what it set out to do. It was a direct provocation intent on spilling blood for the purpose of propaganda. This incident has the potential to be this century’s Sarajevo. The fuse is lit.
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=3091039
My suggestion: sink the flotilla and call it the Rachel Corrie Memorial Artificial Reef.
mags @ 17: “One is Mairead Corrigan Maguire … awarded a Nobel Prize in 1976.”
Oh, mags! You old leg-puller. That is really great tongue-in-cheek writing. The Nobel Prize — ha! ha! Ever since the Norwegians let their inner leftist out, the Nobel Peace Prize carries less weight than the Bill Clinton Marital Fidelity Award.
“swinging from a moose.”
In the most perilous times, may we never lose the ability to be amused.
Your Bullwinklian slip is showing.
Taking its lead from The Won, the anti-semite world has decided to have a go at Israel.
Israel is being backed into a corner that will require it to take very tough action against its enemies.
Personally, I wish Israel well, and look forward to seeing its enemies brought low.
Well, it only took 16 posts to have an useful idiot show up… Mags you really should stick to slinging coffee in SF.
Back on topic. If it can go wrong it will. The stage is set and the fuse is lit. Now we get to see if the Regime in DC will show their true intent. I sincerely hope that twinkle toes is still in Israel. That would be true Kharma.
10. Peter Boston
“We are cursed by an administration of knaves and fools who know neither courage nor honor.”
Well said, my good man, well said.
When I look at the Obama Administration’s foreign policy I keep in mind the saying,”Do not ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by idiocy” and then I remember the collorary “But at times you must consider that you may be dealing with malicious idiots” and everything becomes clear.
Even Yahoo News lets the truth leak out; “Al-Jazeera earlier reported that the ships initially changed course to try to avoid a nighttime confrontation, preferring a daylight showdown for better publicity.” FOR BETTER PUBLICITY, since when is the delivery of needed aid a publicity stunt?
Somebody ought to cue in the Red Cross et. al. about their new responsibilities. Saving lives? yeah, but only if we can get some good footage out of it.
These people disgust me.
I’m with Israel all the way.
Israel needs to do some serious defensive operations. Time is running out for all freedom seeking people.
Just what are the Jews worried about? It’s not as if the Palistinians or any other moslem groups have EVER tried to attack or kill them or anything like that.(SARC OFF). Of course, the moslem in chief in DC will immediately rush to the defense of the Jew killers, whether they be Pali’s, Turks, Saudi’s, Iranians, Syrians or any other “good” jihadi’s.
Israeli prime minister’s office says he’s canceling White House visit to deal with Gaza crisis – AP
Some of the Hamas ships were flying the Turkish flag. Will the Turkish government now attempt to invoke the Nato Treaty, only previously used in response to the attack on America on 9-11? Will Obama use this fig leaf to set up a confrontation between US forces and Israel? Susan Powers has been itching for this for years. What will US UK FR or IT military do?
Constantly updated source of info about the attack:
http://www.facebook.com/israelflotilla
As I wrote on the wall, the speed and competence of pushback is amazing, to those of us used to the unforced errors and self-inflicted wounds of the Mohammed-al-Dura era. I’m glad Netanyahu is PM.
My son’s best friend, a junior in high school, is supposed to go to Israel for the summer. Gonna be a hot one, I bet he stays here.
I’m very sad to hear about the IDF commandos injured in this operation. The PM of Turkey is to blame for this marine assault on the Jewish state.
Mags #17″
“…I was awaiting with such hope that for once this news could be reviewed with some balance…”
Balance? All in the eye of the beholder Mags. Take your meds and maybe you can restore some of yours.
Israel might as well be hanged for a sheep as for a goat and blow the morons out of the water. Wholesale.
Re: 2. What is “occupation”
“I suggest the so called “peace activists” have been taught a lesson…” You seem to be an optimist. They are like cockroaches. Try to teach the cockroaches a lesson.
So Israel protects her borders and kills a few idiots that try to bring a knife to a gunfight.
Obama needs to take a lesson from all this and protect our borders before we have to take up weapons and defend them ourselves.
Well the plans of Obama’s handlers are going right along schedule…chaos in the economy, chaos in immigration, chaos on the international front.
“I’m an agent of chaos, oh and you know the thing about chaos, it’s fair”
This is not the result of incompetence. This is the result of deliberate actions…let the awfullness of that sink in and then after you do that punch an Obama voter in the stomach for being so goshdarn stupid.
I would’ve sunk it. Torpedoes away!!! Gettin’ real tired of people provoking sitations then claiming aggrieved status.
At Rwanda’s border there are refugee camps where militants of the Hutu Power plan another genocide to end the job they weren’t able to complet in 1994 and from where even if they have been unable to implement their dream they have launched murderous raids into Rwanda. Which normal person would try to help them?
At Israel’s border there are refugee camps where militants from movements akin to Nazism plan to end Hitler’s work and from where ven if they have been unable o implement their dream they have launched murderous raids in Rwanda. Which normal person would try to help them?
In Sudan three are people who are victims of a genocide and are starving but they aren’t getting the hundredth of what well-fed Palestinans are getting on the concept of “humanitarian” aid. Why?
“There is none like God, O Jeshurun,
who rides through the heavens to your help,
through the skies in his majesty.
The eternal God is your dwelling place,
and underneath are the everlasting arms.
And he thrust out the enemy before you
and said, Destroy.
Deuteronomy 33
What “unintended consequences” to the NPT UN deal? There wasn’t anything “unintended.” How could it be “unintended?” It was crystal clear what would happen! To even a child! Obama’s been working on this directly for a long time. His whole NPT Nuclear Free nonsense has been directly aimed at this. His intention is to destroy Israel and has always been so.
I’m so sick of hearing even Right wing commentators blah, blah, blah about how Obama’s approach to Iran is “misguided.” “Misguided” my foot. He has always intended that Iran get Nukes. His entire ridiculous approach of getting China and Russia to “sanction” — what they have produced themselves! has been nothing but a smokescreen farce, and everyone buys into it.
How is it that it isn’t clear even to the blind that this all neatly fits into his passion for the idea of a diminished and “equal” (nonsense!) America — a New World Order — away with the old alliances! — A new power structure where the power is “shared.” Idiot!!!
It’s sickening, sickening, sickening.
“And the third are the unintended consequences of President Obama’s diplomacy…”
What makes you believe these consequences were unintended?
21. MarkL of Canberra
‘Sir, cannot you recognise a blatant setup when you see one?’
If it was such a blatent set up.Why did Israel fall for it then?
These elite ‘Defense’ forces blindly fell for the cunning plan and led the whole region to the brink.
The Hamas leader in Gaza Ismail Haniyeh said Saturday that if Israel behaved like pirates and attacked the international Freedom Flotilla carrying 10,000 tons of aid meant for Gaza, then the Palestinians will have won.
‘the first IDF member aboard the larger vessel being atatcked on landing by a terrorist wielding a steel bar.’
They were in INTERNATIONAL WATERS ! Yes the whole world has seen armed IDF enter the ship in direct violation of international law.
750 people from 40 different countries, among them 44 parliamentarians and politicians has a right to self defense under international and maritime law.
It is pathetic to claim every critism of Israel is due to anti-semitism.It’s like saying you disagree with Obama
just because he is black(maybe that’s true).
Ever since 1941, the Nazis have been having a hard time getting across the Mediterranean.
Netanyahu has cancelled the White House visit per the Guardian.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2010/may/31/israel-troops-gaza-ships
It makes no difference were they in international waters or not, because their declared goal was breaching of blockade. See what the law states:
12 June 1994
SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT
Neutral merchant vessels
67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:
(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture”
This ship tried to breach the blockade; it ignored clear warning to stop; they intentionally resist visit, search and capture.
So they were fair game.
Israel has every right to stop aid to the enemy of its state. These fools were warned and yet they persisted in trying to breach the blockade. They were not attempting the breach to bring aid to the Palestinians, that was merely a front. They were doing it to attempt to weaken Israel in the eyes of others in the Middle East. Had they succeeded then Iran would have trumpeted the win to all who would listen. Israel is in a fight for its life and if the liberal fools in Europe don’t or won’t understand that then it is on their heads.
Go Israel!
Mags, by your own logic you are wrong –there were six billion people from a hundred countries not aboard the flotilla. This is more than 750 people from 40 countries.
But seriously, if Israel were larger than the state of Delaware, if Israel spanned multiple time zones and contained dozens and hundreds of millions of people, and furthermore if there existed no history of the Israeli peoples being attacked and murdered en masse while the world flotilla stood by with a tsk-tsk, maybe your prescription to just look the other way and let the enemy play, would have, if not more sense, then a bit less nonsense.
Bravo Zulu IDF
Unsurprisingly, the terrorist sympathizers have planned protests for precisely this event. Show up and counter-protest (preferably with Israeli and American flags); I will. Here’s a list of their locations.
Netanyahu’s cancellation of his trip to the White House may have been ill-advised. It is a slap in the face to Obama, though I suppose Obama probably considers it a great relief, not to have to talk to such a nasty non-dhimmi.
I take it Hillary at this point is utterly lost, totally uncomprehending of who is doing what to whom and why. Press that reset button, Hillary. I’ll tell ya, I didn’t expect a lot from Hillary, but I expected more than this.
A bunch of Rachel Corrie’s, funded and supported by Islamic terror networks, enabling the murder of 7 million more Jews.
With leftist scum like Mags cheering them on.
NorKs, RoKs, Israel and the islamic fleet.
It’s all coming together, an oil spill in the gulf, no real cause stated for the explosion, Mexican’s advancing on Arizona and demanding a change in US laws to allow the Mexican’s to take land back that they considered stolen.
Lawds! If we are all here by 2011 and can continue to communicate via any electronic means I will consider us lucky.
If not then it was a nice ride and good conversation.
Good Luck to us I say!
LOTM@14 says – institute the prepositioning of 200 nuclear devices…
Remote-controlled tamperproof smart mines on public display, with flashing lights and that “step away from the device” recording. Loaded with listening devices and the neutron bomb. Perfect weapon for our current war. Local area weapon. Mosque size maybe. No radiation after effects. See Bill Whittle’s current PJTV exposition and interview with Sam Cohn, its father.
It’s the most compassionate use of force, leaving the property and infrastructure intact, so “no break it – own it” or nation building requirements. The survivors can thrive given they change their ways. Tidy little regime changing device, no?
“There’s still a way back from this..”
No, wretchard, I don’t believe there is. The fuse it lit; we’re waiting for the explosion. We’ve all been waiting for the explosion since Obama humiliated Netanyahu. As for the administration…well, it will, in its inelegant way, throw a can of gasoline on the fire, and that will be it. Interesting century, indeed.
Isn’t it amazing that people like the poster above named “Mags” swim in an ocean of anti-Israel sentiment in the world, yete arriving at a tiny pool like the Belmont Club, where most readers disagree with that groupthink ocean of anti-Israel sentiment — and he/she cannot bear to read differing our views!?
How like the 1.3 billion Muslims who flail and assert that a mere few million jews on a tiny spit of land ruin their existence, and cause all the carnage and backwardness and barbarity rife in the ocean/sewer of Islam. It is psychotic.
Newsvine.com has a “meaty” review of the international law implications of the Israeli’s choice to intercept in the manner they did.
http://yaakov.newsvine.com/_news/2010/05/31/4442318-israel-the-flotilla-and-international-waters
I’ll point out that based on this (and again, there are lawyers who earn their keep on these matters), the IDF would have been within their rights to put all six ships on the bottom and fish out whomever bubbles to the surface–according to international custom.
Mags should be thankful that the Israelis have such awesome restraint, else the bodycount would be–legally–higher. Also, Mags should be thankful they chose to intercept these buffoons at all, or the remainder of the year would be filled with news stories about how Israel is sinking yet another cargo ship attempting to recreate this publicity stunt.
My prayers remain with Israel,
–JC
ahem @ 61: I too see this as the beast crawling towards Bethlehem to be born.
The US and Soviets avoided nuclear war, but it was close. Will the Islamic world, when they have the option, be able to hold back? Pakistan has held back, but they are facing a much stronger India – and have no rational concerns about Israel.
And Israel is being slowly backed into the situation where they have to fire off the first nukes. All I can say is, if they do, I hope they fire them all and they all work. What happens to Jews in the rest of the world after that one can only imagine.
Just imagine, y’all, the history of the world, looking back from 500 years in the future, if this is what eventuates.
Israel is like the canary in the coal mine.
Her fate is linked to the fate of democracy worldwide.
From my early education and reading, a phrase jumps out; ‘first they came for the Jews’.
And the rest of the lesson is that then they came for the rest of us; the ones that stood as bystanders.
Thugs, despots, religious fanatics, terrorists and liberals have picked Israel as a target. They are using Alinsky tactics to freeze and demonize Israel and peel away her legitimacy despite the fact that she is the only real democracy in the area (hopefully excepting Iraq).
Obama, who ought to recognize these tactics better than anyone, because of his activist background and terrorist friends, is dithering and carrying water for the terrorists.
Obama is putting the existence of Israel at risk and for what?
The lesson, of course, reminds us that it does not stop with Israel, we are next.
Iran has killed many hundreds of American soldiers in Iraq, Lebanon and Kobar. They promise to annihilate Israel.
Doesn’t Obama understand? We are next.
I agree with no.40-Israel shoulda just sunk the damn ship. Rational people that are on the side of Israel would continue to do so and those who hate them already won’t have their opinions changed either. The only major difference is maybe they will finally realize that you shouldn’t mess with a country’s right to exist or they’ll mess with you back
Sorry about that unending bold that was supposed to highlight only the word neutron. Preview would be my friend if only.
Wow perhaps this is the sustainable process that Sullivan was pointing to here…
…“What we are seeing here, I suspect, is what we see everywhere with Obama: a relentless empiricism in pursuit of a particular objective and a willingness to let the process take its time. The very process itself can reveal – not just to Obama, but to everyone – what exactly the precise options are. Instead of engaging in adolescent tests of whether a president is “tough” or “weak”, we actually have an adult prepared to allow the various choices in front of us be fully explored. He is, moreover, not taking the decision process outside the public arena. He is allowing it to unfold within the public arena. Others, moreover, are allowed to take the lead: McChrystal, or Netanyahu, or Pelosi, in the case of Af-Pak, Israel-Palestine and health insurance, respectively. Obama encourages the process but hangs back, broadly – and persistently – pursuing certain objectives without tipping his hand on specifics or timing.”
Yup, Obama has been (cough) “encouraging” the process.
Territorial waters run twelve miles out, contiguous waters another 12 according to the 1982 International maritime agreement. Israel, (as has every nation) can by international agreement exercise control as far out as 200 miles, to ensure it security and prevent illegal acts. This flotilla was defiant of Israeli law in carrying illegal materials and violating International trade law in attempting to smuggle the material into the Sinai. So the cry of acting in International waters is meaningless, another use of language to obfuscate the facts.
Line em up and shoot em, the Freegazans are worse than pirates. They are terrorists.
No it is better to capture the ship. Perp walk the miscreants. And deliver the “aid” to the people of Gaza and not to hamas/thugs.
Sergei, thank you for the rebuttle of the useful idiot/propagandist. Saved me a ton of typing on this tiny keyboard.
Defense Minister Ehud Barak coming up on Fox –very soon, maybe a minute, maybe five.
Thank goodness for Fox.
750 people from 40 different countries, among them 44 parliamentarians and politicians has a right to self defense under international and maritime law.
Mags old bean, I think you need to go look up the term “useful idiots” to begin grasping what’s going on here. Look it up, then apply it to these “activists,” then apply it to yourself.
I’m hearing Rush Limbaugh on a replay from last week –saying that 2000 Americans are killed annually by illegal aliens.
A little math will show that more Americans have been killed by illegal aliens in recent years — than have been killed in battle in the middle east.
Navy commandoes slid down to the vessel one by one, yet then the unexpected occurred: The passengers that awaited them on the deck pulled out bats, clubs, and slingshots with glass marbles, assaulting each soldier as he disembarked. The fighters were nabbed one by one and were beaten up badly, yet they attempted to fight back.
However, to their misfortune, they were only equipped with paintball rifles used to disperse minor protests, such as the ones held in Bilin. The paintballs obviously made no impression on the activists, who kept on beating the troops up and even attempted to wrest away their weapons.
Once again, weak kneed Western rules of engagement result in far more trouble than there would be if straight up “kill the first person who acts aggressively” rules were in place. You can read all the sorry details here:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3896796,00.html
One of the biggest problems here is that Israel has limited war stocks on hand. In the past they have needed (desperately!) resupply from the US to maintain operations. Think they’ll get it this time?
Definitely agree with seizure over sinking. For one thing, only the big ship was worth a torpedo. For another, we’re at the beginning of this story, not the end. If the Israelis get the ships into port and find aught but baby formula and shoes for kids, it’s pretty evident what was going on, and crates of AKs, RPGs and ammo make for good photo opportunities. If the food is all there is, the Israelis can make a show of delivering it like they said they would.
Ultimately, either the Flotilla morons got a couple dozen people killed or injured in the process of bringing aid to Gaza, or their cargo is not entirely innocent and some of the leaders go down for arms smuggling and get a taste of Israeli jails. I kind of hope for the latter, I wonder how long antiseptic Western pro-Palestinian sentiment would survive when spending months or years locked up with actual Palestinian criminals. My initial answer would be “not long after the first trip to the showers” but maybe that’s just me.
I don’t look for the Beeb or anyone else in the European media to take any kind of rational look at this, there are people (cf. “mags”, above) who will see any act by Israel interfering with anything the Pals want to accomplish as a horrific use of violence. This is probably because they have not considered the options. The Israeli Naval Commandos went in with handguns, 37mm rubber bullet launchers and paintball guns loaded with pepper gas. They could have just as easily cleared a landing zone with a 30mm cannon fire from Apaches, and landed with shotguns and Tavors locked and loaded. This was significantly restrained, compared to what was legally justified.
So long as the Arabs are at war with Israel, they have no claim to be treated with the manners of peace. If the Arabs want to be treated with the manners of peace, they need to make peace, recognize Israel.
I do like the “toothpaste” method. If the Arabs are dead set on land, let them make peace, or lose the land of Gaza, of the West Bank, and of the Lebanon progressively, and keep losing it, being cleared from the land, and exiled from it, until they make peace.
Considering Turkey’s stance, I say let’s make some “Freedom Flotillas” that will leave from Israel and sail to Kurdistan to help combat Turkish state terrorism. And let’s do the right think and finally acknowledge the Turkish genocide of Armenians. It’s been a long time coming, and besides; the world genocide was conceived specifically to describe the specific attempt to make the Armenians extinct. The Turks should know that there is a downside to joining the Syrian-Iranians axis.
That ynet story is maddening, the Israeli commandos came down with paintball guns? Well, one hopes they have learned better now. Israelis are lucky the ships didn’t all hit the self-destruct with the commandos on board.
I see some allusions to Arizona in this thread, and I will add one in a slightly different context: Both Arizona and Israel are taking “desperate” measures in the face of crises created by others, but which effect each of them directly.
The powers-that-be will define these acts in the face of provocation to be “unacceptable.” Oh, wait, they already did in both cases. Toss in the Gulf oil spill as another unacceptable act that must require the first world’s political class and its fellow travelers to crack down on something that people want and need.
This whole flotilla debacle sounds like a giant reprise of the Rachel Corrie “Saint Pancake” tragic farce.
That ynet story is maddening, the Israeli commandos came down with paintball guns?
As I think about it, clearly the intent of the “activists” was to invoke a “disproportionate” response. They didn’t have guns (forgetting for now the report of someone with a rifle). They were using “mere” bats and steel rods and slingshots. Now despite those being entirely deadly weapons, it’s clear to me they wanted the Israelis to shoot at them. This would give them the propaganda victory they wanted — granted, a victory only in the minds of simpletons, dupes and Jew haters, but we are awash in those.
As usual, Israel is in a no-win situation on the propaganda front. Do nothing, and your soldiers are beaten or even killed (sympathy from world opinion: none). Strike back, and you are condemned as “murderers” killing innocent victims who were merely trying to defend themselves.
Still, given this trap, the best recourse would be to strike harshly. If the first person to swing a bat had his head blown off, it would likely have taken the ardor out of the remainder. We’d have had maybe one or two dead, not 14. A propaganda loss for the Israelis, of course, but there is no way to win that battle. Still, you’d have headlines of “one dead” rather than “14 dead.” And you wouldn’t have had a bunch of your soldiers beaten. And you’d have shown any future wanna-be “activists” that you meant business.
A soft response is worse than no response. And, as always when dealing with punks and criminals, strike hard and strike swiftly. Nothing softens a bully’s enthusiasm like the sight of his comrade’s head in fifty thousand pieces, splattered on his shirt.
Seriously, from a military pov, they screwed up. Big Time. 10-15 dead and 30-60 wounded against 10 hooligans? Its called loosing your cool, overkill, whatever. Must have let loose the snipers and/or MG crews. I can tell you people in Europe are really really shocked, we have a bit higher tolerance for fisticuffs with the authority here. But I know, yea yea, were all communists over here, blahdeblah.
As a personal friend of navyhunters from up round here, I can think of 5 better ways to stop a flotilla of 5 ships. Foil the propellas to begin w, shoot out the engine w non-eplosive AP, press-stunt boarding are the three first that leap to mind. Israel choose the Banzai model, the military state approach of maximum action. It was bloody stupid, like Carters Tehran raid. Unless it was on purpose, and then Israel more or less declared war on Turkey by attacking their ship in international waters. And Turkey is a NATO member w troops in AFghanistan.
The problem u conservatives have now and then is a lack of honest critiscism of your own leaders and their approach to the world. Israel is currently in a lot of trouble due to many factors. Cheering for their alienatin from everyone except the Tea Party crowd in the whole world is not a good thing for Israel. Lots of Turks read here and in Jerusalem Post now, and they have strong sense of honour.
I am curious what various people think the appropriate course of action for Israel would have been? Those who say do nothing and allow the blockade to collapse are not worth discussing. However, the whole point was to put Israel in a no win situation, so what was the least bad alternative? What are the advantages and disadvantages of each?
Several have suggested simply sinking the ships. For those who want more they could have chummed the area first. While legally defensible, I don’t think this would be morally defensible. Perhaps on the grounds that their needs to be fewer useful idiots, some need to be made aware of the consequences, but I believe their primary desired utility (by their handlers) was as a corpse floating in the med. Better to have denied them that. Although if the ships could have been stopped, had it communicated clearly that the ships would be sunk, and lighters sent to ferry anyone willing to get off, then sink the ship would have been preferable.
Several have expressed a desire for some technological magic bullet that could disable the ships. Perhaps some form of short range EMP generator could have worked. But that sounds like one of the newer Star Trek scripts, “If we Tech the Tech, that should work!” We go into the situation with the tools we have.
Obviously the board via helicopter option exists.
What other options or derivatives were or could have been made available?
There was also the option as to where to execute any option. Perhaps it should have been closer.
For one, I think Israel should have tried to do more PR to emphasize the Egyptian role in the blockade as well as the availability of both Israeli and Egyptian ports to allow non-contraband through.
Another would be to collectively punish the Gazans for the stupidity undertaken on their behalf. If I am not mistaken, Israel buys most of the liquid fuel oil for the primary electrical generator in Gaza. Perhaps they should stop…allow the Arab states to donate as much oil as they choose, but for Israelis to stop paying for it. Set up a donation fund to buy the Gazans electricity. The Gazans might find Israeli charity significantly preferable to Arab charity.
I am not sure a better option exists. Hopefully the Israelis are never foolish enough to send soldiers into harms way without proper lethal weaponry. Less than lethal weapons have a place, but it is in supplement to, not in place of, lethal weapons.
Fnord: Lots of Turks read here and in Jerusalem Post now, and they have strong sense of honour.
Muslim “honor” is farcical, navel-gazing machismo and woe-is-us grievance mongering expressed in “insta-rage” moments of pointless breast beating. “Honor” my foot. The singular attribute of Muslim “honor” is a society-wide conviction that their endless centuries of failure are always somebody else’s fault.
Libertyship46:Suppose there was an unfriendly and openly hostile regime in Mexico right now bent on the destruction of the United States (some would say there already is, but let’s leave that alone for right now). And then a convoy of about 10 ships is headed for Mexico loaded with supplies and possibly even military equipment for the military regime there. Don’t you think the United States would have a right to stop that convoy from reaching its destination?
Charles:I’m hearing Rush Limbaugh on a replay from last week –saying that 2000 Americans are killed annually by illegal aliens.
A little math will show that more Americans have been killed by illegal aliens in recent years — than have been killed in battle in the middle east.
Sadly, pro-Israel Jewish groups in the US are united in opposing Arizona’s attempts to get a handle on the immigration mess.
Arizona law
The new law has been criticized by an array of Jewish groups, including the Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society, Anti-Defamation League, American Jewish Committee, Simon Wiesenthal Center, National Council of Jewish Women and the Jewish Council for Public Affairs, a public policy umbrella group comprised of the synagogue movements, several national groups and scores of local Jewish communities across North America.
Gideon Aronoff, the president and CEO of the Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society, who supports legislation like Schakowsky’s and that of Sen. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.), said he is working actively with other Jewish organizations to draft a broad statement condemning the federal government’s failure to enact comprehensive reform. HIAS also is coordinating with its partners in Arizona and anticipates that rallies, the filing of amicus briefs and other actions may be warranted in the near future.
“Are most of the Latinos who suffer from this law Jewish? The answer is no, but we look at this through the oral commandment of ‘welcome the stranger,’ ” Aronoff said. “We are all Americans, we are all our brothers’ keepers. We have an obligation not to stand by when legislation so harmful is put through.”
Phoenix Mayor Phil Gordon, a Jewish Democrat, referred to the immigration bill as one that “nationally embarrasses Arizona” in an Op-Ed piece published Saturday in The Washington Post.
“Already, I have called a special meeting of the Phoenix City Council to establish standing to sue the state on the grounds that S.B. 1070 unconstitutionally co-opts our police force to enforce immigration laws that are the rightful jurisdiction of the federal government,” Gordon wrote.
Eight of the state’s Reform rabbis wrote a letter to Brewer urging the governor to veto the measure, calling it “an affront to American values of justice and our historic status as a nation of immigrants.” And The Jewish News of Greater Phoenix voiced concern in an editorial that the new law would lead to racial profiling and questioning of U.S. citizens.
Rabbi David Saperstein, director of the Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism, said in a statement that “Allowing an individual’s accent or skin color to precipitate an investigation into his or her legal status is an anathema to American values of justice and our historic status as a nation of immigrants. The bill is also likely to endanger our communities by discouraging immigrants from cooperating with law enforcement on issues of national security.”
Along similar lines, Rabbi Marvin Hier of the Simon Wiesenthal Center issued a statement saying that “This law makes no sense — it guarantees and stigmatizes people of color as second-class citizens and exposes them to intimidation and the use of racial profiling as a weapon of bias.”
Israel’s friends in Europe are similarly hostile to attempts by European patriots to restrict Muslim immigration. At a time when Israel needs all the friends it can get it would be nice of Jewish groups in the West supported the preservation of the West! After all those who hate Israel are the same people who hate the West.
Fnord,
If the Israelis went in loaded for bear, it would not have been with FN paintball launchers and holstered pistols. The problem was that they weren’t able to drop ten guys at at time off the helicopters. Imagine the level of success with fastroping one police officer at a time into a soccer riot. “Not very” springs to mind. It’s hard to imagine a more difficult crowd control scenario. Putting a ship aside to board with ladders or ropes just puts the boarders at the same kind of risk — the problem is the rate of arrival in either case, with a much higher risk of ending up in the water if you’re trying to come up the side against opposition. I’m sure there were equally aggressive teams along either side of the boat, the folks on the upper deck just got the nod this time.
Tear gas or other dispersants might have been a good idea, except the ship is at sea and moving. You don’t get clouds of gas from that, you get little streamers that people can avoid. The was a not a prepared riot where the Israelis could line up, this was one guy at a time trying to get on a moving ship against a prepared ambush. The “Banzai” method is to clear the upper decks with cannon fire, the Israelis did not do that. They put themselves at risk to minimize casualties.
If you want to kill people with a pistol, you shoot them in the chest. Preferably more than once. Apparently the Israelis even did that fairly rarely, the video I’ve seen shows a fair number of leg wounds. It takes a lot of control to not aim for center of mass. Even at that, if you hit the femoral artery your opponent can bleed out in a couple of minutes. I have to say that if I find myself completely outnumbered in the company of a bunch of ostensible “peace” protestors who are behaving anything but peacefully, who have already beaten all hell out of the first guy to land and thrown him off the top deck to the lower one, I’m going to opt for ballistic mediastinotomies first and tussling later.
For one, I think Israel should have tried to do more PR to emphasize the Egyptian role in the blockade as well as the availability of both Israeli and Egyptian ports to allow non-contraband through.
Israel’s government seems to have given up on PR.
Fnord @ 82: Fnord, read that ynet article, or any other complete account, and get back to us about who did what to whom.
Mags and fnord, you apes and pigs must understand that putting a couple of C-list celebrities and a video camera on one of your blockade runners no longer guarantees you a pass. The Euroscum and gliterati are today soiling themselves with the horrified realization that they can die out there, that their precious uniqueness can and will be abruptly terminated.
“Israel choose the Banzai model, the military state approach of maximum action. It was bloody stupid, like Carters Tehran raid. Unless it was on purpose, and then Israel more or less declared war on Turkey by attacking their ship in international waters. And Turkey is a NATO member w troops in AFghanistan.”
“Bonzai model” would have had all these commie/Islamonazis bloated corpses floating in the sea…
“Israel more or less declared war on Turkey”…
No — Turkey, by violating a blockade, which is itself a restrained act of war, declared war on Israel. By making kissy poo with Tehran, Turkey also flipped the bird to her American NATO ally, but that’s nothing new from scabrous Muslims like the Turks. They f#cked us over by suckering the 4th ID into Turkey and then rescinding permission to proceed to Iraq. Thousands more Iraqis died as a result, and it made the process of securing Iraq much more difficult and deadly for Americans.
“I can tell you people in Europe are really really shocked”. They were similarly “shocked” when Hitler invaded Poland. They were similarly “shocked” when the soviets crushed the Czechs. If European cowardice and complicity in those atrocities hadn’t played such a huge role, if current European anti-Semitism and philobarbarism for the “Palestinian plight” and Muslims in general not played a huge role in Israel’s current difficulties, perhaps your claims of being “shocked” would hold more value. It’s hard to believe what scumbags say after they’ve made it amply clear they’re complete scumbags…
peterike @ 81: Now despite those being entirely deadly weapons, it’s clear to me they wanted the Israelis to shoot at them. … Still, given this trap, the best recourse would be to strike harshly. If the first person to swing a bat had his head blown off, it would likely have taken the ardor out of the remainder. We’d have had maybe one or two dead, not 14.
Agree with your conclusion, and this is the same logic I often use in wider considerations of Israeli reactions to provocations – a clear response saves lives on both sides.
However, even given an unclear response, I cannot agree that the attacks on the Israelis were meant to draw fire. I think these are simpletons. They simply wanted to hurt and/or kill some Israelis, and didn’t even think as far as the idea that it might draw fire.
Netanyahu canceled his trip to DC after Obama called for a “full investigation” echoed by John Kerry. Lets be honest, Obama being both Black and Muslim wants Israel wiped out, to the last infant, and would prefer the same extended to American Jews. He’s not so different from Hezbollah’s chief who said it was good that many Jews were gathered in Israel — the easier to wipe them all out.
A man is not Farrakhan’s neighbor and Rev. Wright’s protege, to the point of quoting sermons and titling a book after the latter, if he does not share their fundamental ideas. No group in America is more anti-Semitic than Blacks, save perhaps Muslims. It permeates every bit of Black experience, and as much as Blacks hate Whites with a passion, they hate Jews most of all.
Most American Jews, being SWPL to the extreme, would be happy if Israel were wiped out, distant relatives killed, so they could go along with SWPL stuff. Sitting in Starbucks, bemoaning capitalism, hating the West, while planning their next tragically hip advertising campaign for say, Nike. No one is more SWPL than US Jews, which is why there has not been one peep by American Jews over Obama siding with Iran over Israel.
The only nukes Obama abhors is American and Israeli ones. With Iranian and North Korean ones, he’s fine. Obama of course is itching to attack Israel, install Hamas, and proceed with a “final solution” of Jews in the Middle East. Something that if we are honest, we will see would have widespread support from Obama’s Black and Hispanic base, and really almost all of the Democrats. Its not as if Obama faces impeachment for anything he’s done wrt Israel or the NPT or anything else. Farrakhan’s mansion is bigger than Oprahs, and with more goons too! They don’t come cheap! Jew-hatred makes money off Chicago’s (and America’s) poor Black population.
The EU has called for a “full investigation.” Presumably they will continue with their boycott of Israeli produce and kick Israel out of Eurovision. Soft power. Turkey is of course an Islamist thugocracy, proving that Muslims are incapable of Democracy.
Israel will wait until its wiped out, to retaliate. Why? Because it too is filled with SWPL and the pressures of a feminized nation that wants to be liked and loved rather than feared and respected. Only a deeply feminized nation would send commandos with paintball guns to a ship filled with seething “peace activists” who are intent on killing them. That’s the act of a feminized, semi-gay, nation. The “old Israel” would have sunk the ships in deep water, via submarine, and denied they had anything to do with it! Problem solved! And Message Sent!
Feminized nations are simply incapable of defending themselves because the female instinct for placation, for submission, for wanting to be “liked” over-rides what needs to be done: instill fear in the enemy, through defeat of his forces.
The most troubling thing to me was that an Israeli sitcom, called “the Ex-List,” wherein a thirty something woman sleeps with 100 of her ex-boyfriends after a psychic predicts she will marry one of them, or not marry at all, was a big hit in Israel. It hit all the feminized sweet-spots: blind belief in “psychics” and rejection of traditional religion? Check. Promiscuity as part of “empowerment?” Check. Navel-gazing sexual/emotional relationships instead of struggle for accomplishment? Check. Overestimation of female beauty and sexual power? Check.
A nation that produces “the Ex-List” is simply not capable of defending itself. Its just not. Muslims may live in a polygamous hell, with Lord of the Flies harem building, brutality, rampant homosexuality by men disgusted with it, a society resembling a giant prison, with not much technical advancement, but it is destined to destroy Israel and the West. Both of which are simply to feminized to even WANT to fight back.
As Exhibit A, I give you the subject of female sexual fantasies written by married White women in the New York Times: Barack Hussein Obama, President of the United States. As Sandra Tsing Loh noted longingly in the Atlantic, enlightened and liberated Swedish women are marrying fundamentalist Muslims because “they are men.” Or translated from SWPL speak: dominant. That is the big weakness of feminized societies: love for the dominant and aggressive conqueror.
It was pretty clear that this was intended to become ‘an attack on a Turkish-flagged ship in intl waters’ – there were simply too many cameras on that freighter, notwithstanding the cameras on the Israeli Navy ships. Bet your bottom shekel next time the Israelis will have something to disable the propeller.
Darren @ 86: The “Banzai” method is to clear the upper decks with cannon fire, the Israelis did not do that. They put themselves at risk to minimize casualties.
Just to clarify, the “banzai” method is to stand off and fire at the ships to stop them first, take them under tow if they do not sink, and not board at all.
From what I read, after appropriate warnings this all falls under accepted maritime law. And even if it didn’t, it falls under force majeure, which is after all the only international law I ever expect to see enforced.
md @ 90: I agree with this post!
Great post and some great comments (esp. Buddy Larson).
One critique though, Wretchard wrote, “(h)aving failed for decades to pull on the Arab side of the rope, they will now try the Israeli end. But it also emboldens Israel’s enemies and makes the Jewish state that much more paranoid”.
In what sense is Israel paranoid? I would say instead that the current Israeli government and the majority of Israelis are acutely aware of their vulnerability and their place in history.
@ 90. Short, sweet and to the point. Let’s see how the Turkish respond to a free Kurdistan flotilla.
In my view, whatever the undoubted humanitarian intentions of some in the flotilla, there was an element in planning that wanted a bloody confrontation in which relief workers would be killed. They got it and the results are tragic for the dead and Israel alike.
Obama’s behavior in this and other recent events make me believe that he intends slowly, slowly to compel Israel to agree to arrangements which will make inevitable the destruction of the Jewish state as such. The Israelis are absolutely dependent on American money and arms to wage a war for more than a few days, weeks at most, and if Obama pushes hard enough the Jews will have to cave or go down fighting. It is one of the great tragedies of our time, and it is the fruit of Obama’s quite self-aware foreign policy. We all know that Michelle Obama was ashamed of this country until it elected her husband. I am ashamed of this country now that it has.
Richard
In my view, whatever the undoubted humanitarian intentions of some in the flotilla, there was an element in planning that wanted a bloody confrontation in which relief workers would be killed. They got it and the results are tragic for the dead and Israel alike.
Hence, Rachel Corrie incident magnified.
Lest anyone think I am exaggerating the breadth and depth of Black anti-Semitism and Jew-hatred, let me refer them to Pajamas Media own Roger L. Simon, who reported the remarkable story of Rev. Lee’s anti-Semitic Diatribe in Los Angeles right here on Pajamas Media. Short version: a nice Jewish lady, Jackie Ziman, was given an award in front of the Media and Mayor Tony and Bernie Parks and the rest, for her charity teaching poor Black kids in LA how to read.
The presenter of the Award, one Rev. Lee, according to Roger Simon, did the following:
““[Lee] started talking about the African American children who are suffering because of the Jews that have featured them as rapists and murderers. He spoke of a Jewish Rabbi, and then corrected himself to say ‘What other kind of Rabbis are there, but Jews.’ He told how this Rabbi came to him to say that he would like to bring the AA [African-American] community and the Jewish community together. ‘NO, NO, NO!!!!’ he shouted into the crowd, ‘we are not going to come together. The Jews have made money on us in the music business and we are the entertainers, and they are economically enslaving us.’”
Lee continued with his anti-Semitic diatribe, according to Ziman, at which time she could no longer tolerate it and left the room, where she broke into tears.
————————–
Barack Hussein Obama’s base and experience is in the Black community. This is what he knows, in his heart. It is what he breathes and sleeps. It is through him, the way the Klan was with Woodrow Wilson. It is simply part of his being.
NO Black President was likely to have anything other than hate for Israel and the goal of its destruction. NO Black President was likely to do anything but look for an excuse to invade Israel. And NO Democratic party totally dependent on Black and Hispanic votes (Mexicans hate Jews very much, thank you) would do anything but applaud the end of Israel.
We live in a complex, female-oriented PC caste system (men like flat hierarchies, it gives them ore of a shot at women, women like complex ones where they can sort out Alphas easier). Look at female literature: Twilight and Tru Blood and Vampire Diaries and Buffy and all that other vampire junk is loaded with complex, pseudo aristocratic nobility, along with the socialites of Gossip Girl and the rest. The rankings and Caste system are based on race and class. A few rich and powerful guys can be White and “hot,” next comes other rich and powerful guys, of various races, and hot and famous women, then people sorted according to race (Whites at the bottom) and religion (White Christians at the ultra bottom, untouchable). Nearly untouchable are Israelis, and Jews. As Jackie Ziman found out.
Barack Hussein Obama won the Presidency on the swing vote of White women, who voted for him over McCain. Because Obama was both younger, and Black. And therefore more masculine and dominant and of course, the world’s biggest celebrity. Anyone looking at the celebrity magazines in the Checkout counter at the Supermarket can see the internal Western dynamic. The West runs on a complex, PC caste system that at its heart appeals to the dominant feminized marketplace that sorts out men and races according to PC caste.
This is why some neo-Nazi Skinhead will be featured as a menace on National Geographic, but the neighbor of the President of the United States, Louis Farrakhan, is not even mentioned in anti-Semitic hate groups (and the Nation of Islam is a huge organization, present in every Black community, and “respected” in the media).
[Ziman of course just cried and then "reconciled" with Lee where she apologized for being Jewish. HAd it been me, I would have taken the award, spoken to the press, and tossed it into the Trash, pointedly and told the Press that due to endemic anti-Semitism the program would be ended immediately, and that all further Jewish charities would Exclude Blacks who are as anti-Semitic as the SS. Then Media-blitzed with interviews denouncing Black racism and anti-Semitism. Making it a point to collect Lee's resignation. But that takes a willingness to fight and not just be liked, and a rejection of PC dogma, which women, buying into a fake-aristocratic hierarchy, are for the most part incapable of doing. Save Maggie Thatcher and perhaps Sarah Palin.]
–to those wondering if the IDF “overdid” it, it could be that any ‘overdoing’ is the only way to deliver the humanitarian message that those three IDF submarines cruising offshore Iran are not playing games.
I stopped using “useful” in conjunction with idiot some time ago. You do not need the qualifier, and it is in fact dishonest to use it, for anybody who whines about Israel doing anything to defend itself.
I’ll save it for somebody who first calls for the extermination of Hizbullah and Hamas, but that is too harsh a word for many to handle. I suspect Whiskey is right on with his characterization of the gob of Western males as too feminized to survive any real form of dangerous confrontation.
I also find it distressing that Ehud Barack is the Israeli Defense Minister. The downside of parliamentary government is that incompetents get to hang around in important positions. Obama is not the first Barack to kick Israel’s ability to defend itself in the gut. Ehud gave Hizbullah a free pass to move its armaments right up to the Israeli border and Obama is working on getting them a free pass into Tel Aviv.
In my view, whatever the undoubted humanitarian intentions of some in the flotilla,
Excuse me but if you have humanitarian intentions you run a convoy for Darfir not for people who are fat.
Re: 49. mags
“If it was such a blatent set up.Why did Israel fall for it then?” May be because inaction would be worse?
Why they allow the gang that kidnapped THEIR soldier on THEIR territory in a typical caravan raid to continue to operate? May be because they consider any action would be worse?
I have no doubt there are a lot of decent Muslims, but they do not even try to suppress caravan raiders in their midst thus effectively SUPPORTING them. And the caravan raiders NEED caravans (moving or stationary) to continue the only things they know how.
“No it is better to capture the ship. Perp walk the miscreants. And deliver the “aid” to the people of Gaza and not to hamas/thugs.”
And search them thoroughly for the arms stowed aboard, for public/photo-op display.
PB/102; that’s a little harsh, imho. Ehud Barak’s history (read his wiki, including that both sets of grandparents were murdered in the Red and the Nazi pogroms) points in the opposite direction of the experiment in gullible appeasment that Oslo turned out to have been. Oslo, with which EB is associated, to his eternal chagrin, i’m sure. Oslo had to be tried, tho, before it could show its true colors, and who to try but EB, the man on the spot. Also, bear in mind that in Bill Clinton and Yassir Arafat, EB was confronted by two exceedingly adept demons –both winners who seldom lost any contest –operating in tandem.
Sharon faced the same Catch-22 with Gaza. there’s no way out of a Catch-22. like Yossarian said, “that’s some catch, that catch-22″ –to which Doc Daneeka replied, “Yes, it’s the best there is.”
Buddy,
Ehud Barak was operating under the impression that the U.S was his ally then…
It would be interesting to find out if Israel believes that to be the case in light of the O’s inaction. What he says already is questionable – he still hasn’t DONE anything to show a policy, diplomatically or militarily that his foreign policies have any direction other than withdrawal from the theater. Israel is on her own, in my opinion.
Sorry I about fed the troll (Mags). I just can’t help it sometimes, they are so empowered when they are outraged… It’s hard not to give the oppressed or the beggars some alms to make them feel that they have a place in this world…
Sorry I about fed the troll (Mags). I just can’t help it sometimes, they are so empowered when they are outraged… It’s hard not to give the oppressed or the beggars some alms to make them feel that they have a place in this world…”
It is ok, she has been fertilizing all over PJM today. It must be her turn or the coffee shop she works at is closed for mourning. I wonder if Zombie has a picture of her protesting the Zero in SF?
hey lookit Google they couldn’t bestir themselves to change their logo, but they do put a flag and yellow ribbon on the home page.
it’s not just the troll, it’s the entire international left –of which the distinguishing feature is the assumption of a right to play context like an accordion.
wretchard (#11): “If Egypt wanted to send Gaza supplies it could have simply landed the flotilla and moved it across the land border.”
According to Israel, that was proposed to the flotilla organizers, and they turned it down. Their clearly-stated purpose was not to deliver the supplies as such, but to break the blockade.
Lifeofthemind (#14):
Be careful with your phrasing, or you may be having a conversation with the Secret Service.
mezzrow (#29): “swinging from a moose.”
Josh (#57): “Netanyahu’s cancellation of his trip to the White House may have been ill-advised. It is a slap in the face to Obama, though I suppose Obama probably considers it a great relief, not to have to talk to such a nasty non-dhimmi.”
I wonder which of them is more relieved.
JC (#63): “Mags should be thankful they chose to intercept these buffoons at all, or the remainder of the year would be filled with news stories about how Israel is sinking yet another cargo ship attempting to recreate this publicity stunt.”
To the contrary, if Israel were to sink one or more ships, these stunts would stop right quick. As of now, this is far less certain.
Tamquam (#74): “One of the biggest problems here is that Israel has limited war stocks on hand. In the past they have needed (desperately!) resupply from the US to maintain operations. Think they’ll get it this time?”
Leaving aside all questions of morality, making a reported nuclear power mortally desperate does not strike me as particularly wise. But hey, I’ve never even risen to the position of community organizer.
Fnord (#82): “Lots of Turks read here and in Jerusalem Post now, and they have strong sense of honour.”
That’s odd. When I describe someone as having a sense of humour, I don’t mean that they laugh exclusively at their own jokes.
Richard (#98): “In my view, whatever the undoubted humanitarian intentions of some in the flotilla, there was an element in planning that wanted a bloody confrontation in which relief workers would be killed.”
Note that (based on current reports) all of the casualties took place on one of the ships. On all of the others, where the “activists” apparently resisted boarding relatively peacefully, the Zionist monsters somehow managed to restrain their blood-lust. It’s only on the one ship where Israeli soldiers were attacked with crowbars and knives (and according to Israeli sources, fired on) that some “activists” were killed or injured. Funny that.
Josh at #109, it’d be disappointing if it weren’t the norm nowadays.
Bob at 111: brilliant post.
bob, re ‘funny that’ –one of the soldiers is on film clearly being hauled to the rail and Klinghoffered by four or five of the Peace Activists.
54. buddy larsen
Bless you, you’ve got a ton of patience with the likes of Mags. I’d enjoy giving her a (metaphorical, of course) kick in her bottom that would land her on the moon.
She has access to real information if she wants it. If she feels justified in taking a strong position, it’s up to her to do her homework — About what Israel has been going through since its inception and long before, and, for instance, today, right here on PJM, Allison Sommers has the video showing fire bomb and other attacks on the Israeli sailors. She chooses to remain ignorant because “many people” choose to remain ignorant.
Her opinions are warped and empty because she wants them to be. Mags isn’t looking for anything approaching reason. She either just hates Israel or she wants to feel “cool” and join with the other mindless who fall for the phoney victim claims of the Gazans.
TO: 49. mags
“It is pathetic to claim every critism of Israel is due to anti-semitism.”
Every criticism of Israel? Aw shucks — Every -little, tiny — criticism of Israel?
How about unrelenting and continual bashing and battering of Israel, no matter what the circumstances may show, to the point of Orwellian time-outs for Hatred!
Yes, the hatred of Israel and Jews is Orwellian — that’s why he named the set-up arch villain of the totalitarian, controlling government and the mind controlling media, “Goldstein.” He got it. Idiots … don’t.
How about “cticizing” the flotilla people for pretending to bring “aid” to a Gaza that doesn’t need any (their stores are chock full — plenty of funds for bombs and weapons) — or for not simply allowing the Israelis to search the ship for weapons and materials that could make bombs? How about criticizing the “peaceful activists” for stirring up unnecessary trouble? No, not you. Would you be willing to “criticize” them for attacking the sailors with knives, pipes and firebombs when they were not being attacked by the sailors, but only questioned? Nah.
Did you “criticize” Hamas for murdering their own? Did you “criticize” Hamas for shooting from behind their children? Did you “criticize” suicide bombings in Pizza parlors? How about continual bombing of Sderotfor 8 years? Nothing to see there, not from you.
How about the attack by 5 Arab nations on Israel in 1948, 1967 and 1973? How about the expulsion and confiscation of property of 1 Million Jews from Arab lands in many countries in 1948 and the 50′s — where they had lived for thousands of years? How about murders of those same en masse for nothing — for no reason at all — no stone throwing — no riots — no attacking Arabs — just murder of Jews — just because. After all, the majority wanted to kill them, so it must have been okay. Do you feel the same way about the KKK and the majority in the South that supported them? Of course, you must, because you are so “fair” minded.
And — ignoring — the fact that there were to be population exchanges with the Palestinians — who in those days of openly claiming to want only the destruction of Israel, until they found it more expedient to call themselves Palestinians — said, “Do Not Call Us Palestinians, We Are Arabs!!! Did you criticize that?
Did you know that hundreds of millions of people all over the world were “transferred” and “exchanged land” after the Wars? In India and Pakistan (which was also a “created” country) just for one. In Europe too. Bet you didn’t know that.
Did you “criticize” the Mufti — have you in your ignorance ever heard of the Mufti? — and his Muslim Brotherhood for working with Hitler to build extermination camps for Jews in what was then Palestine — Before There Was An Israel? His philosophy has been handed down to the current Palestinians — did you “criticize” that?
Did you criticize the Arabs for ruining the lives of 3 generations of Palestinians by keeping them in Refugee Camps for 60 years precisely for the purpose of being a thorn in Israel’s side?
How about Arafat’s embezzling $3 billion instead of building up the economy of his people — and instead screaming Jihad! Jihad! Jihad! at them?
Did you “criticize” Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, and some others for keeping Palestinians in their countries in Refugee camps and not allowing them citizenship or normal work — to keep them inflamed about Israel — for three generations!!!
Did you criticize Jordan for killing 20,000 Palestinians during Black September? Or Syria for destroying a town of 30,000 of his own?
Do you have any sympathy for the continually persecuted Christian Copts of Egypt — being killed on their way to worship — having their daughters kidnapped and either raped or married off to Muslims against their will? Having their property and places of worship burned or confiscated? Huh? I don’t hear anything from you.
If you have no sympathy for Jews or Christians, how about Hindus? Let’s skip Mumbai. Here’s a little something for you —
Hindu Man Beaten to Death in Mosque in “Religious Ritual”: “Kill the Kaffir”
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/05/man-beaten-to-death-in-mosque-in-religious-ritual-kill-the-kaffir.html
Crickets. Nothing to see here — not from you, you independent thinker, you Mags you.
Did you criticize the Palestinians for raising their children to have nothing in their hearts but hatred for Jews and to want to become suicide bombers? Did you criticize Palestinian TV for raising their children and destroying their spirits with programs where characters dressed up as bunnies want nothing but murder and dead Jews? Then to question the children and lead them to write wonderful poems about killing Jews. Did you “criticize” Iran for sending thousands of their children with a plastic “key to paradise” to run over mine fields during the Iraq-Iran war? By the way, did you “criticize” Iran for murdering and raping their own people during the protests after the rigged election? How about Iranian Nukes? Like them? Do you think you are safe from them? Hahahahaha. Nothing from you. Crickets.
What else do you consider “every little criticism?”
Did you “criticize” the Palestinians for not having the slightest care about “land” or a “state” — but that their main objection is that there are non-Muslims governing themselves in their midst living free and not under Shari’a as Dhimmis — do you even know what a Dhimmi is — are you that ignorant? And worst of all JEWS!! And especially doing well! Being productive and creating a democracy where Arabs have more rights than anywhere in the Muslim world? Nothing to do with land or a state — nothing at all. Did you criticize them for that?
Did you know, in your ignorance, that there never was a people who called themselves Palestinians except the Jews until 1964? They were Arabs. This is a fact. Yes, they lived in that land — it’s debatable about how many came there and when. (The original people were majority Hebrews and some other locals, Arabs didn’t arrive till the Wars after 700 a.d.)
But they were ruled by the Ottomans for centuries, then the British. Not much noise about a State then. The West Bank was ruled by Jordan from 1948 to 1967, not much noise about a State then.
Did you even know that what they call Arab East Jerusalem had been Jewish majority almost all throughout history — even under the Ottomans — until the 1948 War when Jordan annexed it, “ethnically cleansed” the Jews, and destroyed their holy places — making latine walkways out of ancient headstones? Nah. You didn’t bother to find that out. Too much fun doing a “little bit of criticizing” of Israel — not anti-semitic at all.
Did you know that the land was split up into countries after the fall of the Ottomans? A place for Jordan (never mind the history of that — it’s too complicated for you) — a place for Iraq — Syrian borders, Lebanese borders, and some space of Jews to rule themselves — Jews who had been living there a long, long time already — some for millenia — a tiny space — in vast Muslim lands which they even had been negotiating with the Ottomans and of which they had purchased much swamp land and made into farms — no Muslims were required to leave — they could have their own space. No one even had to move. But no. Muslims didn’t want Jews ruling themselves. They chose war. They continue it with your help. (Really, it isn’t good to remain ignorant — even if there is a great majority who choose to do so. Educate yourself — it’ll be good for you — unless you just hate Jews — well, then, never mind — ignorance is best for you — knowledge might disturb your sense of self-importance.)
Maybe if you criticized the madness of the Palestinians and Muslims, stopped sending them money for arms, stopped inciting them further, they would calm down, turn their energy to being productive and creating decent, wholesome lives — and instead of their perpetual violence dressed as phoney calls for peace, just stop making war on Israel. Maybe if you did that. Actually, likely if you did that. But no, you have too much invested in death — which you call “peace.” (Here’s Orwell again.)
It’s your fault, and people like you, even more than the Palestinians, that there is so much trouble and violence there. Yes, it’s specifically your fault. You are responsible for the deaths and wars. You support it because it’s “cool.”
I live right here in the U.S. Last January, about 500 Muslims of various nationalities, gathered on the streets 15 minutes from my home — screaming — “Death to All Jews! Go Back to the Ovens!” This was happening all over the U.S. It hardly made YOUR mainstream media. Did you “criticize” that?
In France, there’s a very popular Comic named Dieudonne — he ran for President — all of whose shows are openly anti-semitic — with some Jewish character wearing a Jewish Star humiliated. Brings lots of laughs and applause. This kind of humor was very popular in Germany in the 30′s and 40′s. Gee, just like the ole minstrel shows.
Also, in France these days, just for instance, Jews have been murdered on the streets, violently murdered, kidnapped and murdered — and the French are very reluctant to call them anti-semitic acts. (Orwell wins again.) In one case, a 21 year old boy was kidnapped, Ilan Halimi, and tortured for 3 weeks in an apartment building where all the neighbors could hear his screams — no one reported it because they knew he was a … — they cut off various parts of his body, burned him, and finally killed him. The kidnappers called the family and wanted money, because “Jews are Rich.” But the French were loathe to call it anti-semitism. The killers have almost all been tried, found “insane” and gotten off after a short time.
All over Europe, Jewish cemeteries and holy places have been defaced, Jews have to hide their identity (they have been given an “advisory” by the government in Norway, not to wear kippas or any identifying jewelry or clothing) — or be beaten up or killed — with perpetrators, even after capture, largely going free.
Hmmm. No anti-semitism there. I’m sure you’d defend this all. No “criticism” from you.
The reason anti-semitism comes up as the reason for your opinions, is that they are so irrational and counter-factual that there is no other explanation — other than massive and all-encompassing stupidity and deliberate ignorance.
“It’s like saying you disagree with Obama just because he is black (maybe that’s true).”
It’s such a coincidence that you cast those who disagree with Obama’s radical leftist program for this country and the world — as Racists. No, no coincidence. I was just joking, because — It comes from the same stupidity, irrationality and deep bigotry and prejudice on your part. What’s wrong with a little indulgence in Race-Baiting, right? It’s you who clearly are the Racist — to the depths of your heart and soul.
I hope that in your life, on the level of the individual, you find yourself in the same position as Israel — with huge masses of the mindless choosing you as the evil one, when you are innocent — threatening your existence when you are doing what anyone would do to protect themselves — condemning you for it — ganging up on you, claiming that their numbers — the many, many who love to bully and be part of a mindless mob — who can find self-importance and solidarity in hatred — blaming you when others attack and harm you — and nowhere to turn. I hope that for you. It might save your spirit from the contaminated rotpit it is now.
Then maybe you’ll regret what you are supporting, and shut up.
buddy #102
The image of the IDF sitting on their hands for several days at the border while Hizbullah rockets screamed overhead into Israeli civilian population centers sticks in my mind like a bad nightmare. It was the first time I actualized that Israel may not last 100 years.
I don’t care what EB’s rationalization is. I saw what he did – or was not willing to do as the case may be.
That Barack also tossed the Lebanese Army in S. Lebanon under the bus in 2000, ceding the territory to Hizbullah. Maybe the Lebanese Army could not have stood up to Hizbullah anyway but there were lots of Lebanese citizens willing to bet their lives that it could.
My heroes do not include CICs who prefer the excuse for inaction against killing their enemies.
115. Aqua
Bravo, well said.
WiO – cut ant paste this for our rat enemy at EB.{not that it would do any good}
Larry (#113): Thanks.
buddy (#114): “one of the soldiers is on film clearly being hauled to the rail and Klinghoffered by four or five of the Peace Activists.”
So now we know why the “peace activists” were reportedly carrying “hundreds of electric-powered wheelchairs.”
Instead of Catch-22, I would describe the situation Israel faced as a Xanatos Gambit. (It had to stop the boats, or the blockade would be ended. But by stopping the boats in a necessarily heavy-handed manner, it hands the “activists” a propaganda tool which they will leverage to pressure Israel to end the blockade.)
Peter Boston @ 9 said
“If there is any place on earth where you can draw that clear line in the sand between the stifling darkness of Islam and the light of civilization it is around Israel. We are cursed by an administration of knaves and fools who know neither courage nor honor.”
I am in total agreement with Peter Boston. Once again, Obama has brought dishonor to the US.
Richard @ 98 said:
“.. whatever the undoubted humanitarian intentions of some in the flotilla, there was an element in planning that wanted a bloody confrontation in which relief workers would be killed.”
The goal was either to portray Israel as being powerless thus provoking further confrontation -or- provide a 30 second sound bite for the MSM depicting Israelis engaged in “unprovoked” aggression. Given the two options, the 30 second sound bite was the best choice.
One minor criticism, I think it was a mistake going in with paint ball guns (essentially toys). Doing so made the Israeli soldiers look unprofessional and opened themselves up to a suicide bomber. They should have used the traditional method of sending a cannon shot across the bow of the main ship while demanding immediate surrender. Failing that, fully armed special ops people should have swarmed in throwing stun grenades and shooting anyone who showed armed resistance. Arguably some of the soldiers should have also been armed with tasers to deal with people using nonlethal weapons. I reemphasize that this is a minor criticism. Israel’s basic approach was sound.
Aqua writes: “I hope that in your life, on the level of the individual, you find yourself in the same position as Israel — with huge masses of the mindless choosing you as the evil one, when you are innocent . . . It might save your spirit from the contaminated rotpit it is now.”
I don’t wish that for Mags, but I don’t disagree about there being a rotpit in her spirit.
Christianity is at its core a religion that recognized scapegoating as a fundamental evil impulse of human beings. It’s the foundational evil, literally, providing solidarity for the scapegoating society. (Christians scapegoat, too, for sure, but the founder didn’t.)
Post-Christian Europeans (and Obamalanders) see themselves as rational. But reason deceives itself easily, and in the absence of real self-knowledge, e.g. of the Christian kind, reason eaily succumbs to scapegoating. After all, how is reasonable Europe ever going to expiate its guilt for scapegoating and killing so many Jews in mid-twentieth century Europe? Answer: Find a new scapegoat. Even better yet, the same scapegoat, but guilty of new crimes, providing assurance to themselves that the murderous Nazi scapegoating was really not mindless scapegoating genocide but actually a kind of wisdom.
Bob Dylan wrote a great song about Israel,
“Neighborhood Bully”
Well, the neighborhood bully, he’s just one man
His enemies say he’s on their land
They got him outnumbered about a million to one
He got no place to escape to, no place to run
He’s the neighborhood bully.
The neighborhood bully he just lives to survive
He’s criticized and condemned for being alive
He’s not supposed to fight back, he’s supposed to have thick skin
He’s supposed to lay down and die when his door is kicked in
He’s the neighborhood bully.
The neighborhood bully been driven out of every land
He’s wandered the earth an exiled man
Seen his family scattered, his people hounded and torn
He’s always on trial for just being born
He’s the neighborhood bully.
Well, he knocked out a lynch mob, he was criticized
Old women condemned him, said he could apologize
Then he destroyed a bomb factory, nobody was glad
The bombs were meant for him. He was supposed to feel bad
He’s the neighborhood bully.
Well, the chances are against it, and the odds are slim
That he’ll live by the rules that the world makes for him
‘Cause there’s a noose at his neck and a gun at his back
And a licence to kill him is given out to every maniac
He’s the neighborhood bully.
Well, he got no allies to really speak of
What he gets he must pay for, he don’t get it out of love
He buys obsolete weapons and he won’t be denied
But no one sends flesh and blood to fight by his side
He’s the neighborhood bully.
Well, he’s surrounded by pacifists who all want peace
They pray for it nightly that the bloodshed must cease
Now, they wouldn’t hurt a fly. To hurt one they would weep
They lay and they wait for this bully to fall asleep
He’s the neighborhood bully.
Every empire that’s enslaved him is gone
Egypt and Rome, even the great Babylon
He’s made a garden of paradise in the desert sand
In bed with nobody, under no one’s command
He’s the neighborhood bully.
Now his holiest books have been trampled upon
No contract that he signed was worth that what it was written on
He took the crumbs of the world and he turned it into wealth
Took sickness and disease and he turned it into health
He’s the neighborhood bully.
What’s anybody indebted to him for ?
Nothing, they say. He just likes to cause war
Pride and prejudice and superstition indeed
They wait for this bully like a dog waits to feed
He’s the neighborhood bully.
What has he done to wear so many scars ?
Does he change the course of rivers ? Does he pollute the moon and stars ?
Neighborhood bully, standing on the hill
Running out the clock, time standing still
Neighborhood bully.
119. Bob
“… offered condolences to the families of the victims.
Nice of him to sympathize with the IDF.
Next time the ‘street’ erupts and the Gendarmes are attacked we should give similar platitudes.
“I’ll save it for somebody who first calls for the extermination of Hizbullah and Hamas, but that is too harsh a word for many to handle.” Peter Boston @ 102
I can’t imagine I’m the first, but I’ll go on record here and call for the extermination of Hizbullah and Hamas, and the current Syrian and Iranian regimes too for good measure.
Per somebody’s suggestion: Start at the top and work down, until done.
Well, our family just returned from a trip to our small local Veteran’s Memorial where hundreds of us Texans paid our respects to our Fallen and those that have served and are serving. Then our family all went and ate way too much b-b-q and hoisted several to our Military.
(Don’t worry all the kids had juice or root beers, but they toasted right along with us adults.)
At the Memorial we listened to a few fine ( mercifully short) speeches including one from the mother of one of our most recent fallen Warriors. It was a hearting – not heartbreaking – heart felt expression of love of her son and of our Republic. She told us that: “her son told her if he returned on his shield, “to not to mourn him but to celebrate his life and his service to the greatest Nation to ever be on this earth and to pledge to protect our Republic after he reported to the Highest Authority.”
To which she then said to us: “it has been very hard but I am determined to follow his last request and the rest of his family and friends have vowed to do the same.”
She then asked our small crowd to pledge to protect and preserve our Republic. As we all shouted out our pledge, a chill ran down my back at the defiant eardrum splitting yell from all of us, men, women and children alike.
I won’t say – Only in Texas- but you had to be there.
Papa Ray
P.S. Most of the world wants Israel either gone or reduced to slavery under Islamic rule. But our new President and his followers and backers are doing more than just wanting. They are helping the forces against Israel, America and anyone that values their freedoms.
There are many things going to happen this year and if the world survives this year, will happen in the next and the next year. Not just because Obama has made us weak. Not just because America has lost any respect or fear that any nation had for us because of him, his administration and his backers.
But because THAT IS THE PLAN.
Contrary to what many believe here, I believe Obama to be nothing more than a pretty puppet with his backers from all over the world pulling the strings.
Not by accident or stupidity – But by design and purpose. The purpose is to destroy our America and any others that believe in individual freedom.
Many others would say, that would include anyone or any nation who believe in a religion other than Islam.
When and if the time comes and when we find out who his backers are, we need to line them all up at the gallows and hang them one by one, letting the others watch as the line gets shorter. The ropes should be very short, so as not to break their necks, but to slowly strangle them, very slowly….
And then they can rot and roast forever and ever in HELL!
Papa Ray
Israel would have been better off to simply sink the ships at night, with torpedoes or missiles, and be done with it. That this was a propaganda excercise designed to discredit Israel was widely known well before the ships set sail, otherwise why object to unloading in Ashdod or Egypt?
Israel, if she wants to survive, must stop acting like a feminized Western nation (Whiskey is quite right about that) and start acting more like Russia or China. You don’t see anyone proposing aid convoys on land to Chechneya or to the Muslims in China, do you?
The USA could learn a lesson from this as well. Coddling your enemies only hurts you,and people will condemn you no matter what you do, so you might as well act in your own interest.
Aqua/115; great outpouring of righteous disgust. Somewhere on the web (i lost the url) is a photofeature of the wars 1948 onward. There’s black & white photos, combat photos, of skinny teenaged Israeli girls, wearing shorts, in trenches firing stens and mausers at an Arab tank brigade trying to overrun their kibbutz. These girls were just over from Europe, you know, born to mothers and fathers likely worried sick waiting on the rifle-butt knock on the door.
To me, it is those girls, and not the sons of Arafat, who deserve Mags’ mercy.
Also, Orwell’s “Goldstein” was prophecy –Big Brother today does it thru Goldman Sachs –not JP Morgan, Citibank, Wells Fargo, Bank of America, or the like. Big Brother has always liked the easy scapegoat.
to: 117. f47
Thank you. I couldn’t help it. So sick of those fools.
Can’t make out your shorthand — been meditating on them, but can’t do it. What’s “WiO (Will … O…?) and EB? I’d like to know. And good luck with it.
IDF Photos of Knives Contradict Turkish Claims of ’No Weapons’: http://bit.ly/dlPly2
Was Israel’s Boarding Of the Gaza Flotilla a Violation of International Law? http://is.gd/cxlET
As it is the habit to demonize Israel, I’m making her devil advocate, and try to find some objective facts through the rumors
Also
I have that thought, if de Gaulle had been in place of Israel, he probably would have fired as well.
When we had our nuclear tests in Pacific, many spying ships were around, from the US to Russian that had a float of fishing ships with thousand antennas, and “green peace” playing the Palestinian part. So our navy was very busy to keep them away with tons of water, and warning shots. But if any of these spy boats had had a bellicose intention, be sure that our navy would have destroyed them
It reminds me that our navy destroyed a Somali pirat boat lately, and rescued the pirats afterwords
Israel should announce that it is sending the captured weapons from the “Flotilla” to the Kurds.
The captured “peace” activists should be held until Gilad Shalit is released.
The ships should be impounded as collateral to pay for any legal proceedings forthwith.
As noted elsewhere, the Turks should be notified that they have committed an “Act of War” by allowing the ships to depart from a Turkish port, and they will be held fiscally responsible for the medical expenses of, and reparations to, the injured Israeli soldiers.
I can’t understand that this humanitarian flotilla bringing essential
goods and medecines to the deprived Gazans is full of people. Surely
if they removed most of the people there would be much more room on
ships for the supposed needed goods. And why are there Swedish
politicians on the ships? Is there a lack and a need of Swedish
politicians in Gaza.
If you dare, click on the picture to enlarge it, and dwell for a moment on the issue of defensible borders, and what is wheat, and what is chaff.
One scenario I can imagine runs like this:
A lot of Gulf states want Iran to NOT have nuclear weapons. The US would be the obvious hero to do the dirty work but neither Bush nor Obama have offered to take direct action.
Another way to do so is to let Israel do it. Maybe Obama wants to arrange things so that the Israelis get so far with their back to the wall that they do a pre-emptive nuclear strike against Iranian assets – nuclear and leadership.
Israel will suffer for doing so and will be diminished if not extinguished.
That might be an acceptable outcome for the Saudis – a win-win for the Sunnis.
Questions are, will the US Navy hunt for the Israeli subs and would they be successful in blocking them? The effective range of the Israeli sub-launched cruise missiles gives them some ocean to hide in and their subs might be quieter than our nuke subs. Can their subs be refueled and restocked at sea to allow longer time on station? Can their cruise missiles carry multi-megaton warheads?
The study a few years ago by CSIS (I think) showed that a nuclear exchange between Israel and Iran would end Very, Very badly for the Iranians, largely because basic 20 kT Iranian weapons get trumped by 25+ MT hydrogen weapons which we have long supposed the Israelis are capable of building. So the question is, can the cruise missiles deliver them?
The Israeli tactics on the blockade seem perfectly reasonable to me – I can offer no constructive criticism.
“Was Israel’s Boarding Of the Gaza Flotilla a Violation of International Law?”
Well, that’s what the lefties keep claiming. Haven’t seen any of them cite the actual law yet, though.
Tell you what…both the United States and the UK routinely board and/or seize vessels on the High Seas if they think they’re smugglers or pirates. Happens all the time.
For example…
‘On September 13 [2008], a Navy patrol plane detected a 15-foot drug sub off the coast of Guatemala and a Navy frigate launched a Coast Guard boarding team to investigate. The team climbed aboard the sub’s flat hull and knocked on the hatch, at which point the “startled smugglers attempted throw our personnel into the sea by backing down the [sub's] engines quickly,” Naron recalls. “This maneuver nearly threw our people” off the sub, into its propeller. “They had to cling to the exhaust pipe.”‘
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2008/09/drug-runners-st/
Last time I checked Guatemala is a bit more than 12 miles from the United States coast…but, we stopped and boarded them anyway.
Israel should announce that it is sending the captured weapons from the “Flotilla” to the Kurds.
The captured “peace” activists should be held until Gilad Shalit is released.
The ships should be impounded as collateral to pay for any legal proceedings forthwith.
As noted elsewhere, the Turks should be notified that they have committed an “Act of War” by allowing the ships to depart from a Turkish port, and they will be held fiscally responsible for the medical expenses of, and reparations to, the injured Israeli soldiers. 130. po
I like how you think.
Was Israel’s Boarding Of the Gaza Flotilla a Violation of International Law?”
Well, that’s what the lefties keep claiming. Haven’t seen any of them cite the actual law yet, though. 134. Dave Surls
And you won’t. Because they don’t know the actual law. They will, however, continue to ignorantly pontificate as if they do.
Bob, I also vociferously condemn the disproportionate ignorance being shown by Sarkozy and you. Seriously man, Wake T F UP!
IDF personnel were single roped to the deck by ONE helicopter and the soldier had a FREAKIN paint ball gun to protect himself with! What!? you mean a paint ball gun is disproportionate to a slingshot with marbles or a crowbar. Then again maybe they were marshmallows and a wiffle ball bat… INFRICKENSANE!
115. Aqua I’ve read many rants, editorials and righteous writings in my life concerning Israel and I think that you have definitely made the top ten of all of them.
I know you left out much in the interest of brevity so I recommend that you flesh it out and republish it where ever and when ever you can.
Well said Sir!
Papa Ray
The question at hand is as to whether the boarding in international waters is justified under the Law of the Sea treaty, to which both parties are signatories, also known as the Third United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, or UNCLOS. Article 110 of the Law of the Sea Treaty specifies military ships are “not justified in boarding [a foreign ship] unless there is reasonable grounds for suspecting that: (a) the ship is engaged in piracy; (b) the ship is engaged in the slave trade; (c) the ship is engaged in unauthorized broadcasting…; (d) the ship is without nationality or (e) …the ship is, in reality, of the same nationality as the warship.” Boarding of ships involved in the illicit drug trade is also permitted.
However, unless solid evidence is presented that the ships were sending weapons to Hamas or something to that effect (of course IDF can plant this evidence – I do not think the Turks would be so dumb as to carry arms, this is a humanitarian mission to bring needed food into Gaza which is not Israel but which Israel maintains control over), then Israel should have to answer in the Security Council. I think Israel could be without friends in this scenario. Turkey is also at least as important as an ally within NATO as is Israel, and is much more useful to the US in the Middle East than is Israel, which is practically a pariah state in the region.
The legal question, JR… Is a ship, with the stated attempt to run a blockade, board-able in international waters?
Please state maritime law and reference. I am seriously interested, not trying to question your expertise or knowledge of maritime law.
Papa Ray, yes the comment you cite contains a wealth of pertinent information. Not the least of which follows: “Did you know… that there never was a people who called themselves Palestinians except the Jews until 1964? 115. Aqua
I propose t-shirts and bumper stickers make the point explicit for the historically and/or intellectually challenged:
The original Palestinians were Jews
And Israel is being slowly backed into the situation where they have to fire off the first nukes. All I can say is, if they do, I hope they fire them all and they all work. What happens to Jews in the rest of the world after that one can only imagine.
The Muslim world is looking for an excuse to exterminate all of their non-Muslim minorities, not just Jews. If Israel fires a working nuke, every Jew, Christian, Zoroastrian, Hindu, Buddhist, Yazidi, and Bahai will be at risk.
16. ADE,
Thank you.
24. Rosinante,
The moose is loose
60. geoffgo,
neutron bomb
We can assume that such devices can be scaled from 0.02 kt to 200 kt, constrained by the increased difficulty of transporting and assembling a larger device and depending on the nature of the target. Similarly devices can be designed either to deliver a set effect when constructed or be dialed at activation to deliver their energy at a chosen point on a curve of neutron yield or thermal effects.
111. Bob,
Be careful with your phrasing, or you may be having a conversation with the Secret Service.
I am generally careful not to engage in statements of posturing or advocacy in here, partly because that is my preference and partly because of an awareness that those who indulge in such talk are putting the forum at risk. That occasionally makes me seem stiff or even a scold, so if I did transgress it would be proper to correct me. In this case I believe that a fair reading would indicate that I am not advocating an act of unlawful violence against any American, that already puts me ahead of our government, but rather using my educated yet unclassified skills to speculate as to how a country facing an existential threat may see itself compelled to act. That should not earn me an interview as a Person of Interest from the USSS but could ideally earn me an interview for a job with DIA or CIA.
115. Aqua,
Welcome, wish our genial host’s Tocque system was back up. That deserved thumbs up and clip and save status.
For those who suggested that there are non-lethal means to disable a small merchant ship’s screws I agree and think that the ideal solution for the Israelis would be to disable such vessels within tow distance of Cyprus or simply ensure that they sink at the pier.
For those who are urging the Israelis to organize relief expeditions for the Kurds or other oppressed minorities it makes a difference if their homeland is landlocked. Geography is harsh.
So these people were pacific, they had no arms
Not what these videos are showing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvS9PXZ3RWM
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/137798
JFSanders031 (#136): “Bob, I also vociferously condemn the disproportionate ignorance being shown by Sarkozy and you. Seriously man, Wake T F UP!”
Why don’t you entertain us by providing examples of my ignorance? Alternatively, you can apologize for your vociferous condemnation of me. (Hint: rollover.)
Bob Smith (#141):
In a perfect display of irony, Jews would have less to worry about in that regard, as the Muslims have already driven most Jews out. To Israel.
But as Josh (#64) undoubtedly intended, the problem will in no way be limited to the so-called Muslim world.
To: 121. aardvark
“how is reasonable Europe ever going to expiate its guilt for scapegoating and killing so many Jews in mid-twentieth century Europe?
“Answer: Find a new scapegoat. Even better yet, the same scapegoat, but guilty of new crimes, providing assurance to themselves that the murderous Nazi scapegoating was really not mindless scapegoating genocide but actually a kind of wisdom.”
—
Yes, exactly.
It with the use of this weapon of Europeans’ self-deception when it comes to “morality”
(attempting to expiate their complicity in and culpability for genocide by attempting to “prove” their non-racism by embracing Muslims, all the while repeating and amplifying their genocidal anti-Semitic impulses, re-naming it anti-Israel-ism),
that their leaders via the EU have (since the 1970′s) signed various agreements with Muslim Countries to be part of the EU as its “South” (largely kept out of the controlled and obliging media) in order to “compete” with the U.S.
From the 1970′s, the joint EU (then EC) Muslim nation combine, has used this flaw in the character of Europeans, plus their susceptibility to insidious “Political Correctness” and their lack of ability to think individually, but rather go along with the crowd in a collective blob — ala Ionesco’s stampeding “Rhinoceri” — to enable the Muslim “program” —
(along with media control and voluntary compliance to work toward dumbing down those same vulnerable Europeans whose vanity tricks them into believing they are terribly “advanced” but who are cowardly unwilling to take any stand outside the mob)
… Muslim “program” of promiting support for the Palestinian “cause,” hatred of Israel, anti-Semitism and a form of massive Muslim immigration that includes special privileges for them above the 3rd class European dhimmis, and discourages assimilation.
Europeans have allowed themselves, via the use of their easily evoked sense of superiority and anti-Semitism, to be duped into participating in their own demise.
I have very mixed emotions about this.
20% to 25% population will give Muslims complete control. No need to go into how — it’s clear to anyone who has been following, or is experiencing this at only 10%.
Europe will be Muslim by the next generation.
Without European complicity and support of Muslim intransigence, mendacity and violence, the Israeli-Palestinian issue would have been resolved long ago.
P.S. After release from the Holocaust Camps, weak and hungry, a group of Jews walked all the way back to their village in the Ukraine or Poland somewhere — about 150 or 200. The townspeople, fearful they’d have to return the confiscated homes and possessions that had belonged to the Jews, fell on them with knives and sticks and murdered most of them. Europeans.
Thanks for the Dylan lyrics to “Neighborhood Bully.” They’re, perfect, aren’t they — sadly.
To: 126. buddy larsen
Thanks. I think I’ve seen the photos you mention, and have them bookmarked somewhere. I recall they were very moving.
Yes, I’ve thought that too. That Goldman Sachs is the Obagov version of Orwell’s Goldstein.
Israel Eurabia’s “Goldstein” for now — maybe by the next generation the new Goldstein in Eurabia will be a Norweigan or Frenchman — or Obama. Wouldn’t that be a kick!
Unless someone else can find additional or conflicting info. I am going to say that Israel did not sign the:
United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea
The U.S. did but has not “ratified” it. What ever that means.
But I did read somewhere if a nation is “blockading” or has set up a blockade that it is considered bad form to run that said blockade and if you do, it’s on you.
I’m sure that the U.N. and other nations such as France will iron out the legal details.
Papa Ray
Papa Ray, France didn’t sign too, we have our laws of the sea, dating from Colbert
I believe the term Palestine goes back to the Roman name for that territory. The Romans came up with that name in reference to the Philistines, that in ancient times occupied the area we know today as Gaza. But the Philistines were not a Semitic people, rather evidence points to them being Mycenean in origin. So if “Palestinian” has any merit as a cultural/historical label, then it would refer to a people of Mycenean (ancient Greek) origin.
Regarding humanitarian food aid, the solid fuel rockets that Hamas fires at Israel are homemade and use sugar as their fuel. I wonder if, somewhere in all of that humanitarian aid, the Israelis are going to find a few tons of sugar and a few thousand feet of irrigation pipe?
More sparse explanation on :
Maritime Security Regimes
Article is demanding citations.
Chores
Papa Ray
139. DanM
The legal question, JR… Is a ship, with the stated attempt to run a blockade, board-able in international waters?
Please state maritime law and reference. I am seriously interested, not trying to question your expertise or knowledge of maritime law.
Note, I’m not JR.
The answer is YES . It is my understanding that the recent conventions on the seas have dealt with three sections dealing with sea life and other aspects of the maritime law. The remainder of the old law remains not only in force but is as definitive as it gets. The only quirk in the proceedings this morning would result from the fact that Israel has not made a claim of contiguous waters. But the right is still present even if the actions occurred outside of the territorial waters demarcation, which is twelve miles from the coastal low water mark.
FROM:SECTION III Subsection A., Article 14, and 16, Which is still the recognized law today.
http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/8_1_1958_territorial_sea.pdf
SECTION III.
RIGHT OF INNOCENT PASSAGE
Subsection A. Rules applicable to all ships
Article 14
1.Subject to the provisions of these articles, ships of all States, whether coastal or not, shall enjoy
the right of innocent passage through the territorial sea.
2.Passage means navigation through the territorial sea for the purpose either of traversing that sea
without entering internal waters, or of proceeding to internal waters, or of making for the high seas from
internal waters.
3.Passage includes stopping and anchoring, but only insofar as the same are incidental to ordinary
navigation or are rendered necessary by force majeure or by distress.
4.Passage is innocent so long as it is not prejudicial to the peace, good order or security of the
coastal State. Such passage shall take place in conformity with these articles and with other rules of
international law.
And
Article 16
1.The coastal State may take the necessary steps in its territorial sea to prevent passage which is
not innocent.
2. In the case of ships proceeding to internal waters, the coastal State shall also have the right to
take the necessary steps to prevent any breach of the conditions to which admission of those ships to
those waters is subject.
3.Subject to the provisions of paragraph 4, the coastal State may, without discrimination amongst
foreign ships, suspend temporarily in specified areas of its territorial sea the innocent passage of foreign
ships if such suspension is essential for the protection of its security. Such suspension shall take effect
only after having been duly published.
and Article 19
Article 19
1.The criminal jurisdiction of the coastal State should not be exercised on board a foreign ship
passing through the territorial sea to arrest any person or to conduct any investigation in connection with
any crime committed on board the ship during its passage, save only in the following cases:
(a) If the consequences of the crime extend to the coastal State; or
(b) If the crime is of a kind to disturb the peace of the country or the good order of the territorial sea;
or
In addition PART II.
CONTIGUOUS ZONE
Article 24
1. In a zone of the high seas contiguous to its territorial sea, the coastal State may exercise the
control necessary to:
(a) Prevent infringement of its customs, fiscal, immigration or sanitary regulations within its territory
or territorial sea;
(b) Punish infringement of the above regulations committed within its territory or territorial sea.
2.The contiguous zone may not extend beyond twelve miles from the baseline from which the
breadth of the territorial sea is measured.
The stated intent of the flotilla was to violate Israeli law, customs and to do so within the territorial sea and territory of Israel. Further these acts are being performed in the support of known terrorists and terrorist groups. The claim of friendly passage is not valid, the law of the sea is clearly on the side of the Israeli’s. The Turks are nuts.
To: 137 Thank you Papa Ray. Your heart’s on your sleeve too — I appreciate you and yours.
115-Aqua- What a rip on Mags.Glad to see im not the only one questioning these so called enlightened liberals.Who btw have no concept of economics as they have been brainwashed instead of actually learning something.
JR @ 138 / Dan @139
See #52
Go the the ICRC website and check it out for yourselves!
#111 Bob —
You sir are of course correct: were Israel to have sunk the ships, then that would put a dampener on future activity of this sort. I prefer to deal with the current situation, however. It’s unlikely that sinking the ships now that they are in Israeli hands would make the same impact.
#147 Papa Ray –
International “Conventions” are formulated in the UN. The adoption process for each country goes Signature -> Ratification. Signing a convention may be done by the executive, and indicates general agreement with the principles of the convention in question, as well as non-binding commitment to ratify. The UN likes to badger countries that sign in order to get them to ratify. Ratification must be done by the legislature, is (supposedly) binding and implies that national laws will be modified if needed to accommodate the Convention.
Of course, if a state does not ratify a given convention–as Israel has not for the Law of the Sea–then it has exactly zero impact on that state. If a state is not a party to a convention, then appropriate international law defaults to “International Custom”–which just means the normally accepted means for treating a given situation, assuming the state has not formally indicated that they vary from that custom.
International law is a rather vague area to be making proclamations in, which is why you so rarely see any State actually being called to account for “violating” it. The one-worlders like to imagine that the UN has some kind of enforcement authority, but even if a state is party to a given Convention, that convention may not have any enforcement mechanisms unless a State is willing to give up its sovereignty over the matter in question.
–JC
Aqua, I enjoyed your rant very much. As a boy, my cousin Dudu was in the Irgun. Too young to fight in ’48, served in the army after. As part of Israeli’s factional history, he was denied the chance to become an officer in the tank corps because of his political affiliations. Nonetheless, he lived his life as the proud Israeli, with open eyes, understanding and learning Arab culture, but without illusions. Four sons all became officers in various branches of the IDF.
I think it was you that referred to the young women fighting against Egyptian armored columns in ’48. Most likely, that would have been either at Kibbutz Negba or Yad Mordechai, just north of the Gaza Strip. I am familiar with both stories, having lived on Negba. In both places, many of the fighters were survivors of the camps and some of them of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising. Thus ‘Yad Mordechai’ for Mordechai Aneilewicz, leader of Hashomer Hatsair against the Nazis in Warsaw, died there. I believe there were about 70 young men and women, local kibbutzniks most of them, at Yad Mordechai when the Egyptian columns came. I believe that between Negba and YM, the Egyptian columns were held up for a week, enough time to save the state. I recall that 23 or 24 of them died.
If ever Jewish young men and women did not die in vain, these twenty-some heroes would be amongst them.
There are many stories like this, many heroes, Ezer Weizmann as a fighter pilot, later organizer of the raid against Egypt in ’67, so many others, like Motti Hod and Benny Peled, and the pilots who eliminated Osirak and many other sites.
The paratroopers had endless numbers of heroes, as with many other units. The story of how Avigdor Kahalani, then a Colonel or less, with a handful of others, held off basically the entire Syrian tank formations in 1973, the decimations of the 7th Brigade (from which the same cousin I mention was discharged not long before the war), the amazing acts of heroism and innovation.
There is no end to it, though there should be- should be a Zionist, Jewish Israel living in peace with its neighbors. Perhaps if the spirit of the old-timers like my cousin, like Begin and Raful Eitan, and the rest, will lift up Binyamin Netanyahu so that fear and trepidation leave him when it matters, then it will come. Then we can put the Oslo nightmare to rest, and manage to change as well Israeli politics so that patriots are not silenced and ridiculed in the national dialogue, as happens far too often these days.
Thanks, and thanks again.
A bit of research suggests that the SLCMs in Israeli subs might have a yield of 100 to 200 kT. The US Harpoon nuke warhead is selectable at 5 kT or 150 kT. They also have operational ICBMs (Jericho II/III) capable of delivering 1 MT warheads to Iran.
When we had 25 MT weapons, they weighed in at about 10,000 lb. If you can build a 1 MT weapon, you can build a 25 MT (or more) weapon but you need a delivery system.
It has been rumored that the Israelis also have worked on small nuke bunker busters that rely on conventional explosives to soften up the ground for a deeper penetration of the followup nuke. That also could limit fallout.
Suitcase-sized weapons are also rumored to be part of the inventory.
Complete destruction of Teheran could be achieved with several 1 MT ICBMs but they would have to be spaced out over a couple hour interval to prevent fraternization.
The US has just added a second carrier group and intend to have 5 or 6 in the Persian Gulf zone by end of summer.
I suspect that the US/Israeli fussing is a play act and that the US, Israel, Saudis, other Gulf states, and maybe Iraq have a coordinated plan for taking out Iran’s nuclear capability before Fall.
The Turks, I don’t know, unless they’ve thrown in with Syria.
JC (#155): “It’s unlikely that sinking the ships now that they are in Israeli hands would make the same impact.”
It could, but my educated guess is that Israel wouldn’t put the “activists” back on the ships beforehand. (That is, those who have survived the unprecedented bloodthirsty massacre and the subsequent sadistic and torture-filled questioning.) (Oh dear, I hope JFSanders031 doesn’t read this.)
Lifeofthemind (#142):
“A fair reading”? “Could ideally earn me an interview”?
I salute your optimism.
(Since this and my previous comment to you are slightly more open to interpretation than others, I’ll make explicit that I’m being tongue in cheek.)
JC in KZ,
Just curious, Unless Turkey and Israel are belligerents does the San Remo manual apply? Armed conflict at sea must have broader meaning if it does. Sailing under the Turkish colors is an act by a neutral party in this case, not necessarily friendly but not by definition a foe either.
MarkL of Canberra
‘Sir, cannot you recognise a blatant setup when you see one?’
If it was such a blatent set up.Why did Israel fall for it then?
Comment: Oh, come on, Mags. It’s obvious with only cursory analysis. The terrorists worked up a plan of operation that holds my (very grudging) professional respect. They worked inside a brilliant cover, with a sea of useful idiots and fellow travellers providing cover. The attack groups (I see 2 of them in the videos) were armed with extempore weapons (no intel trail left by guns), and they suckered the IDF beautifully. This was a very professionally planned terrorist op. They might just have penetrated Israeli police intel, too.
These elite ‘Defense’ forces blindly fell for the cunning plan and led the whole region to the brink.
The Hamas leader in Gaza Ismail Haniyeh said Saturday that if Israel behaved like pirates and attacked the international Freedom Flotilla carrying 10,000 tons of aid meant for Gaza, then the Palestinians will have won.
Comment: Yes, they have won a signal victory here. Of course, you miss the real point: the target here is strategic, the Turkish-Israeli relationship. This will probably break it. It’s a major strategic success for the terrorists.
And it brings the next war closer, and will make it worse.
‘the first IDF member aboard the larger vessel being atatcked on landing by a terrorist wielding a steel bar.’
They were in INTERNATIONAL WATERS ! Yes the whole world has seen armed IDF enter the ship in direct violation of international law.
Comment: Mags, you openly display great ignorance here. They were NOT on the high seas. You apparently have no idea of what sort of ‘international’ waters they were in! Who’s EEZ, Customs, Safety and Security Zones were they within? That was Israel’s, yes? So they were within Israeli jurisdiction, and there was certainly NO innocent passage involved. Please check the IMO website and UNCLOS for details.
750 people from 40 different countries, among them 44 parliamentarians and politicians has a right to self defense under international and maritime law.
Comment: An enumeration of large numbers of useful idiots, fellow travellers and doe-eyed fantasists involved is neither here nor there. They have NO right to break any law in any jurisdiction they entered. And they entered Israel’s jurisdiction – so why did they not obey Israeli law?
It is pathetic to claim every critism of Israel is due to anti-semitism.It’s like saying you disagree with Obama
just because he is black(maybe that’s true).
Comment: Straw man. I have not argued that EVERY criticism of yours is based on anti-semitism. However, if you are a leftist, anti-semitism is part of the scenery.
I disagree with Obama because he is massively corrupt, hangs out with domestic terrorists, criminals and kleptocrats, supports dictators and is a complete idiot who has squandered four trillion dollars.
You imply here that you yourself disgree with him based on the colour of his skin. Well, whatever floats your boat, Mags: it’s not unexpected, for if you are a leftist then open racism and arrogant race-based elitism is just a conventional part of your world-view. Skin colour is quite irrelevant to me, I think that merit and competence really matter. BTW, my personal hero is Lee Kwan Yew, based on what he achieved for Singapore. I have met him once, a very great honour.
MarkL
Canberra
I see I’ll never live the moose down. Maybe I’ll go back to Typos_R_Us as a nome’ de Web.
Meanwhile what would happen if Israel cuts loose a few Nukes? Would the Muslims start killing any Dhimmi they could get their hands on? Maybe but so what?
Everybody dies and Israel will still have more nukes.
The world will be horrified, for about 2 weeks. In 2 years it will be mostly forgotten. New despots will take the place of the former despots. I suspect that process will kill more people then the nukes.
Will Israel be tossed out of the UN? Probably but again, so what? President Bush the Younger challenged the UN back in 2001 and the UN failed to meet that challenge, proving that they are nothing but a sink hole for monies better spent elsewhere. I think if they just nuke Tehran, Damascus and Mecca, none of the other Muslim nations will do much. Sort of like when the Einsatzgruppen would line up their victims. As they walked down the line shooting them in the back of the head, they would stand there and wait, Like good little Jews. It was reported that they rarely would run or fight back. Shock that it was actually happening and disbelief that it would happen to them.
The only military that is capable of giving the Jews fits is the US military. I don’t see that happening. If LLMD commits them without Congressional authorization, then the Military is within their right to refuse those orders. Considering that there already are officers that have resigned because they don’t consider the Usurper to be a legitimate POTUS combined with the general concern within the military over fags and queers, Somebody needs to keep in mind that one NEVER gives an order that you know won’t be obeyed. 1st rule of leadership.
I wouldn’t worry to much about ammo stocks. Logistics is important in long drawn out campaigns. Israel should have enough munitions to last a week, which is about all they will need.
AFAIK, Israel is using a version of this;
http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Usa/Weapons/W80.html
I think the guy that sold the design to them is still in jail.
http://www.pbase.com/image/67350733
The Israeli subs are Harpoon capable. Harpoons are NOT nuclear capable. Tomahawks are. The USA refused to sell Tomahawks to Israel for that reason, it is presumed.
So Israel developed it’s own SLCM that was nuclear capable. Then to get back the research money it sold that weapon’s designs to China. The US Congress then whined about the technology transfer but the technology in question was jointly developed and the USA had no legal right to restrict it’s transfer.
While nothing is known for sure, best guess is that Israel has a rough equivalent of the Tomahawk with a version of the W-80 onboard. It would make sense to have either 2 or 4 on board. That is because with 3 subs, they will have 1 on station, 1 in transit, 1 in dock.
Of course, it is possible to switch crews when they re-provision at sea and keep 2 or more on station. Lots of wear and tear on the ships when you do that.
With all 3 subs available, Israel could turn every Arab capital into a glowing crater. If they are going to be destroyed anyway, there is no reason not to. Look up the word zealot and see where it originated.
MarkL (#161): “the target here is strategic, the Turkish-Israeli relationship. This will probably break it. It’s a major strategic success for the terrorists.”
You make a good point which I have not seen elsewhere, except that one can easily make a case that Erdogan et al were at least willing participants in this operation. Turkey has been one of Israel’s few open Middle-East allies. Israel has benefited from this alliance, as has Turkey. By helping stage this operation with its inevitable consequences, the current Islamic government of Turkey is hoping to whip up Turkish public opinion against Israel, allowing it to bypass the secular/Kemalist institutions (eg the Turkish armed forces) who would prefer to maintain good relations with Israel (and perhaps even retroactively discrediting them in the process).
Interesting times.
162. Rosinante
“moose down” I have heard of horse feathers before but moose feathers? Isn’t that velvet?
The arabs in Gaza call themselves palestinian – please show me the ‘P’ in the arabic alphabet.
Point being there is no P in their alphabet. The adoption of the name palestinian was co-opted by the arab nations surrounding Israel (Palestine if you like) in order to stick a foot in the door of the Jewish Nation.
What will it take for these dumb as a rock liberals to put 2 and 2 together and figure out that Israel – and the libs – have been set up by the arabs.
Look up the meaning of useful idiots – you’ll find a picture of Rachel Corrie et al group photo – i.e. useful idiots. The arab/islamic nations thank you.
115. Aqua – what a great post! Too bad the moronic libs and progressives will blow off your post at about line 2 or 3 after calling it hogwash.
#162 Rosinata
You are correct – the Tomahawk is the correct analog, not the Harpoon.
Thanks for setting my error straight.
In a nuclear pre-emptive strike, what is the correct tactic for Israel?
I would think counter-force (nuke production) and decapitation. Counter-value (cities) doesn’t buy them anything since the Iranian people are not in love with their rulers in large part. But I’d expect Qom, as Imam HQ, would be a target.
I noticed that a member of the Knesset participated in the recent Hamas flotilla, i.e. Haneen Zoubi. I read the Wikipedia article about Haneen Zoubi and was surprised to find that a member of the Knesset was essentially against the state of Israel and even voiced support for Iranian acquisition of nuclear weapons.
Okay, so she’s simply an advocate for a Palestinian state and/or Islamic fascism who is working within the Israel political system.
Why do the Israelis tolerate this? Surely to assume public office, one is required to make some sort of oath of loyalty to the state of Israel. Failure to make such an oath should prevent one from actually holding office and later violation of this oath should serve as grounds for impeachment. Like the United Kingdom, Israel has no written constitution. However Israel must have some sort of statue dealing with treason or sedition. Why is Haneen Zoubi still holding office?
Eggplant (#167):
Why is Haneen Zoubi still holding office?
Because Israel is a racist apartheid state committing genocide against the Palestinians, that’s why.
Bob @ 168:
I did not understand the meaning of “Zoubi”. Did she change her name to “Zoubi”? Talk about chutzpah.
Again, she’s openly mocking the Israeli political system. Why do the Israelis tolerate her?
Also the rhetorical question raised by K.T.@165 caused me to lookup the Wikipedia article about the Palestinians (or al-filasTīnīyyūn):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people
The section on “DNA and genetic studies” was particularly interesting.
Dear, dear 156. Larry in the Silicon
Your comment and brief stories of heroism and bravery, and your simple and tender touch in expressing — and telling them — are very, very moving and inspiring. That bravery, that heroism — valour in the face of so much against those few. Their lives dedicated to the building of the beautiful little gem of a country that Israel is — thriving and contributing so much to the world in so many ways.
Yes, an Israel with peaceful, prosperous and healthy neighbors — all the “could have beens, if only …”
I’m so ashamed to have a man of such deeply, deeply flawed character as Obama for our President. But, inversely, if he doesn’t destroy us all, his profound knavery will have wound up doing a fine job of revealing to Americans the damaging nature of leftist policies (are they policies or delusions?), at home and abroad, and thereby uniting and increasing the opposition which will defeat him and his minions. I think he’s done the same for Israel — perverse, the way the world works, isn’t it.
The major error (among all the others) — Oslo and all — was to have too much faith in being able to reach out for the “reason” and “decency” in people who don’t even know their meaning. It continues, but I am with you in awaiting the spirits of, as you say, your cousin, Begin, Eitan, and their likes, to lift Netanyahu to find the Way.
Thank YOU. You are a treasure.
At 128 – MC provided the following link:
According to the San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994:
SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT
Neutral merchant vessels
67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:
(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;
(b) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;
(c) act as auxiliaries to the enemy s armed forces;
(d) are incorporated into or assist the enemy s intelligence system;
(e) sail under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft; or
(f) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions.
NOTE: the San Remo Manual is not a treaty, but considered by the ICRC to be reflective of customary law.
Israel’s boarding of the Gaza flotilla was certainly an example of #67 section A. The Captain of one of the boats told the IDF that they intended to “run the blockade” And the video evidence shows that Israel did indeed give the flotilla a warning and asked them to re-route to an Israeli port.
Also, on piracy: the definition of piracy under the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, section 101, is clear that piracy can only occur where there are “illegal acts of violence or detention” that are “committed for private ends.” Israeli actions were legal under the law of armed conflict (as evidenced by the San Remo Manual) and in any event, were not committed for private ends. Anyone using the term piracy to describe the Israeli action is clearly not aware of international law on the subject.
Here’s the bottom Line:
A maritime blockade is in effect off the coast of Gaza. Such blockade has been imposed, as Israel is currently in a state of armed conflict with the Hamas regime that controls Gaza, which has repeatedly bombed civilian targets in Israel with weapons that have been smuggled into Gaza via the sea.
Maritime blockades are a legitimate and recognized measure under international law that may be implemented as part of an armed conflict at sea.
A blockade may be imposed at sea, including in international waters, so long as it does not bar access to the ports and coasts of neutral States.
The naval manuals of several western countries, including the US and England recognize the maritime blockade as an effective naval measure and set forth the various criteria that make a blockade valid, including the requirement of give due notice of the existence of the blockade.
In this vein, it should be noted that Israel publicized the existence of the blockade and the precise coordinates of such by means of the accepted international professional maritime channels. Israel also provided appropriate notification to the affected governments and to the organizers of the Gaza protest flotilla. Moreover, in real time, the ships participating in the protest flotilla were warned repeatedly that a maritime blockade is in effect.
Here, it should be noted that under customary law, knowledge of the blockade may be presumed once a blockade has been declared and appropriate notification has been granted, as above.
Under international maritime law, when a maritime blockade is in effect, no boats can enter the blockaded area. That includes both civilian and enemy vessels.
A State may take action to enforce a blockade. Any vessel that violates or attempts to violate a maritime blockade may be captured or even attacked under international law. The US Commander’s Handbook on the Law of Naval Operations sets forth that a vessel is considered to be in attempt to breach a blockade from the time the vessel leaves its port with the intention of evading the blockade.
Note that the protesters indicated their clear intention to violate the blockade by means of written and oral statements. Moreover, the route of these vessels indicated their clear intention to violate the blockade in violation of international law.
Given the protesters explicit intention to violate the naval blockade, Israel exercised its right under international law to enforce the blockade. It should be noted that prior to undertaking enforcement measures, explicit warnings were relayed directly to the captains of the vessels, expressing Israel’s intent to exercise its right to enforce the blockade.
Israel had attempted to take control of the vessels participating in the flotilla by peaceful means and in an orderly fashion in order to enforce the blockade. Given the large number of vessels participating in the flotilla, an operational decision was made to undertake measures to enforce the blockade a certain distance from the area of the blockade.
Israeli personnel attempting to enforce the blockade were met with violence by the “protesters” and acted in self defense to fend off such attacks.
My friend’s objection was a thoughtful one, made out of a respect for the law, however, the laws of the sea indicate that Israel was in her bounds when she boarded the terrorist boat last night.
————————————–
We shall know soon enough.
Eggplant (#169):
Let me set the record straight and make clear that my link in comment #168 was a joke. Zubi is pronounced similarly to fool. Ordinarily, I would think that Zoubi would be pronounced the same way (at which point Marie Claude detects a clue as to my possible background), but this is understandably unlikely enough that I’ll assume it’s pronounced Zoubi as in Mao. (That said, I would consider this an amusing if puerile google bomb.)
Addressing your question seriously: Why do the (Jewish) Israelis tolerate her? Because they’re unbelievably tolerant, that’s why, to the point of foolishness. They’re similar to Americans in that they’ll put up with a heck of a lot before rousing themselves to action. They’re also similar to Americans in following the David Banner corollary. (Unfortunately, that means that these countries’ unwise enemies keep pushing their luck until, to everyone’s surprise, they cross some indeterminate red line.)
(You could attribute the similar tolerance to both countries being composed of disparate groups of immigrants who often fled hardship and persecution in their former countries. Alternately, you could accept Whiskey’s theories, which I consider overstated.)
I wonder what those who plan to rocket Israel out of existence are going to have to say for themselves when they no longer exist in large numbers? Perhaps Uncle, or I surrender.
With zero in power, the last country to support Israel has pulled out, thus assuring war in a very short time. The arabs have been given the go ahead to take out Israel by obama the fool.
LiS/156; what a great post. Stories of deeds and valor, in the holy land, in our time.
Jeez, kids off to school (the last week of school, Give me strength for the onslaught of summer and two little girls that will want to do everything – every day.)
Anyway, wanted to say a few things and rest a while behind the keyboard.
156
“Perhaps if the spirit of the old-timers like my cousin, like Begin and Raful Eitan, and the rest, will lift up Binyamin Netanyahu so that fear and trepidation leave him when it matters, then it will come.”
More than hope and prayers that this is true. Not just for Israel, but for everyone that wants to beat down the Islamic forces that are (once again) advancing and breaking down our gates. Just because they are using the weapons of PC, PR and subterfuge instead of steel and stone, makes them no less dangerous than their ancestors.
160. whatdayameanitstoohot
“Sailing under the Turkish colors is an act by a neutral party in this case, not necessarily friendly but not by definition a foe either.”
I’m not sure you thought that out or maybe you don’t understand what and who Turkey is today and aim is to be tomorrow.
Read this: “Dueling Caliphates” which just touches on what is going on. You can do some other research and find that it is much more dire than this article alludes to.
161. MarkL of Canberra
“Comment: Oh, come on, Mags. It’s obvious with only cursory analysis. The terrorists worked up a plan of operation that holds my (very grudging) professional respect. They worked inside a brilliant cover, with a sea of useful idiots and fellow travellers providing cover. “
Yes it was a good plan, one that I wish that the west would quit falling for and one that Israel should NOT have fallen for.
Where was the vaulted and experienced Israelie Intellegence services in all of this. Hell, all one needed to do was listen to the group of “Useful Idiots” chanting their war songs just before embarking on their trip to make Israel (once again) the bad guys in the world’s eyes.
If after that, the Israel Navy wasn’t given a heads up as to expect violence and/or to modify their plans (which evidently they didn’t or did not believe the intel) the resulting fiasco and boost to Islamic goals is deserved.
Stupidity and hard hardheadedness is not to be admired or tolerated in the Military or Intelligence Service.
162. Rosinante
“That is because with 3 subs, they will have 1 on station, 1 in transit, 1 in dock.”
You forgot they recently received two more subs from Germany, making a total of five, and they have had time to modify them. As far as sea launched missiles, don’t forget the utility of mounting missiles on other ships decks. Covert ships which would be in the sea lanes at all times and be available to launch from distances of up to 1500KM. The Jericho II which is usually “road launched” is quite handy for mounting on a larger seagoing vessel.
165. KT
“What will it take for these dumb as a rock liberals to put 2 and 2 together and figure out that Israel – and the libs – have been set up by the arabs.”
VDH has a word or two about that:
170. Aqua
“I’m so ashamed to have a man of such deeply, deeply flawed character as Obama for our President. But, inversely, if he doesn’t destroy us all, his profound knavery will have wound up doing a fine job of revealing to Americans the damaging nature of leftist policies (are they policies or delusions?), at home and abroad, and thereby uniting and increasing the opposition which will defeat him and his minions. I think he’s done the same for Israel — perverse, the way the world works, isn’t it. “
See my previous posts for the last year here and elsewhere. My beliefs differ from the mainstream conservative (and others) beliefs that Obama is just an inexperienced idiot surrounded by same or worse.
I believe he is just the “front man” or “Pretty face” that worldwide backers have installed for purposes of destroying all that is good, not only in America but in the rest of this ol’ world.
I have more to say and would like to do so, but my youngest grand daughter wants me to go outside and play with her.
She has priority in all things.
Papa Ray
Aqua @ 170 said:
“My beliefs differ from the mainstream conservative (and others) beliefs that Obama is just an inexperienced idiot surrounded by same or worse. I believe he is just the “front man” or “Pretty face” that worldwide backers have installed for purposes of destroying all that is good, not only in America but in the rest of this ol’ world.”
I agree that Obama is just an idiot or rather a common moonbat. I also suspect there are deeper forces behind Obama. The near complete malfunction of the MSM in a way that seemed coordinated along with the well timed market crash in Fall 2008 supports the belief that there were deeper forces behind Obama.
It’s important not to be distracted by Obama who maybe little more than a sock puppet and try to focus on the people behind Obama. Unfortunately for me, I’m not sure who those people are….
Eggplant, re Israeli tolerance:
Two items from today’s news:
1. 7 rockets were fired from Gaza into Israel
2. Israel has (already) transferred material from the ships to Gaza
Re: #170. Aqua -”The major error (among all the others) — Oslo and all “.
Just a reminder: Arafat and co were rotting in Tunis, terrorism on the territories was (relatively) minimal, many Arabs were productively working in both Gaza and Samaria/Judea (aka West Bank) and… the US (papa Bush and Baker) organized Madrid conference that would impose a very unfavorable “solution” on Israel. Hence Oslo in an attempt to avoid this. The rest is history.
Bob@172 said:
“Addressing your question seriously: Why do the (Jewish) Israelis tolerate her? Because they’re unbelievably tolerant, that’s why, to the point of foolishness.”
Obviously, I’m sympathetic towards Israel and wish her success. I must confess to a certain amount of ignorance concerning Israel and have never travelled to Israel (been to Egypt and Turkey).
My impression is the founders of Israel tended to be either very pragmatic people who either anticipated the Holocaust or were victims of the Holocaust. These pragmatic founders wanted to create a “safe” and stable place where Jews could live and be left alone. However I think mixed in with these pragmatic founders were naively idealistic people (read “moonbats”) who wanted Israel to be some sort of socialist utopia. Ultimately socialism always fails and consequently the socialistic aspects of Israel are slowly disappearing. However this mixed legacy of pragmatic and moonbat founders has left Israel with almost a bipolar mindset. Given that Israel is surrounded by savage and ruthless enemies, Israel needs to purge its political system of moonbats and enemy agents like Haneen Zoubi. Also, I might add that it’s a little difficult as a foreigner to express total support for the state of Israel when it appears that so many of Israel’s citizens seem dead set to commit national suicide.
Eggplant (#179):
I think it more useful to look at Israel through a global prism; the phenomenon you talk about can be seen throughout the West (cf Subotai’s TWANLOC). I am reminded of the famous Bernard Lewis quote (which he attributed to a Turkish general): “The problem with having the Americans as your allies is that you never know when they’ll turn around and stab themselves in the back.”
Our primary effort must be in ensuring the survival and flourishing of what we see as Right (call it “classic western civilization” or what you will) in our own country. When it comes to other countries, we obviously can’t save them from themselves, but so long as they haven’t given in to their own “Dark Side,” we should support them. (The extent of that support being a topic for another discussion.)
In more concrete terms: I believe the US should sell advanced weapons to Israel, provide it with diplomatic cover etc. But if Israel decides to withdraw to indefensible borders, it is most certainly not the responsibility of the US military to serve as a buffer. (The matter gets complicated if the Israeli withdrawal is due to US pressure.)
Papa Ray,
Thank you for the link. It is my observation that Turkey and Israel are not yet engaged as belligerents, not yet in a hostile shooting war and are in fact legally bound partners in many ways. Any action that would force hostilities between them is not an act I would look upon with favor, so treating this activity on the part of the flotilla as an act of war by Turkey rather than as an act of stupidity by the freegazans’ seems not the best of plans for a whole host of reasons.
Of course if my understanding of the San Remo manual is flawed, I am always willing to stand corrected. I might even welcome it in this case.
This hasn’t been the most cheery news cycle, what with Korea, Turkey, etc.
So let’s wind down this thread with a video dedicated to Rosinante and mezzrow.
ALLISON KAPLAN SOMMER ON THE ATMOSPHERE IN ISRAEL. “Knesset testimony begins, amidst calls to treat ‘peace groups’ as potentially violent allies of terrorists rather than benign protesters.”
Posted at 1:52 pm by Glenn Reynolds
****
(the hyperlink you can’t see in my copy of the insta-text:
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/within-israel-finger-pointing-and-lessons-learned/
I am a simple soal, and I am wondering how people defending themselves when being occupied by enemy forces can be labeled: Attackers.
Like: They defended themselves when we attacked them, consequently they are the agressors.
I wander: What sort of people are they, and who are their mental masters?
Another question:
Why did the jews set up shop in the most hostile place in the world? They went there on their own free will.
Why did they not settle on the American continent?
Close to friends?
#185 Kjell Odd Foss
I would suppose that the Jewish choice of Palestine in 1948 might have something to do with the location of the bones of their ancestors, ancient religious promises, and other historical odds-and-ends. You know, pervasive settlement from roughly 2000 BC (400-year sojourn in Egypt and 70-years in Iraq notwithstanding) to 70 AD, followed by more or less scattered settlement, depending on how many of their throats were being cut, until 1948.
It’s nice to have friends around, but it’s nicer still to be “home”.
–JC
Kjell Odd Foss/185; the answer to your question is in your question: it is not “a hostile place” –there are just some hostile nomads in the neighborhood. They’ll peace out when the oil is all gone. If the Israelis can stand fast the next few decades they should be home free.
To 178 Grrr
Yeah, isn’t it great how things get “fixed” and go from frying pan into fire.
Thanks for telling me about that. I only know a little bit about Bush I’s dealings with Israel, and will look that up. Can you recommend any good reports on that topic? If not, never mind, I’ll find them.
aqua, james baker III and the state dep’t ‘arabists’ were not especially good friends to israel.
Re.# 188. Aqua
“Can you recommend any good reports on that topic?”
Sorry, I just remember what was happening than. If you’ll find good analysis, please post a link.
I too must be simple, because I look at comment 185 and I conclude that people should not go to hostile places where they aren’t wanted. But then I look at comment 184… My brain hurts.
Kjell (#185):
Yes, why did all those Jews from Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and the rest of the Middle East move next door to Israel instead of setting sail for America? A mystery that. Most unreasonable, those Jews.
bob, yep, it’s a world dictum (or izzat a world dicked ‘em):
No matter what it is, no matter when or where it was, if there’s any fault at all, unless they can prove different, da Jooos did it.
buddy:
It wasn’t me, it wasn’t you
It must have been the Jooo
That’s why they must be lynched quickly, before they use their talmudic guile to swindle their way out.
Or in other words (Salut Marie Claude!): “Si ce n’est toi, c’est donc ton frère.”
“Bloody Joo,” of course. One must scan.
one if by scan
two if by see