The Girlie Men
A study described by the Wall Street Journal concludes that women from “healthy countries” don’t like he-men. Respondents, mainly white women in “Argentina, Sweden, Russia, Australia and the United States,” were presented with pairs of photos each representing the same man. But in one the image had been subtly altered to create a more “feminine” appearance. The authors say that in countries with an efficient health care system the women tended to choose the feminine-looking image.
The faces, it turned out, looked eerily alike and yet subtly different, like identical twins. They were created by software that masculinizes or feminizes a person’s features in a few keystrokes. Only by examining the faces closely could one discern that the man on the left, say, had slightly rounder eyes and a narrower jaw than the one on the right. Some of the faces had slightly thinner lips than their doppelgängers, or wider-set eyes, or thicker archless brows. It took most women fewer than 10 minutes to click through the 20 pairs of male faces and select which ones they found hunkiest.
After crunching the data—including the women’s facial preferences, their country of origin and that country’s national health index—the Face Lab researchers proved something remarkable. They could predict how masculine a woman likes her men based on her nation’s World Health Organization statistics for mortality rates, life expectancy and the impact of communicable disease. In countries where poor health is particularly a threat to survival, women leaned toward “manlier” men. That is, they preferred their males to have shorter, broader faces and stronger eyebrows, cheekbones and jaw lines. The researchers went on to publish the study in this month’s issue of the scientific journal Proceedings of the Royal Society: Biological Sciences.
The authors argued from principles of evolutionary psychology that women from countries with bad medical systems selected men from a tougher genetic pool because they wanted their offspring to survive. Since a good proxy for tough genes turns out to be testosterone, they picked out Mr. Tall Dark and Handsome. But testosterone also creates problems: men who are “uncooperative, unsympathetic, philandering, aggressive and disinterested in parenting”. They are men who might balk at sitting down when using the toilet. What to do about testosterone?
The link is testosterone, the hormone behind manly muscles, strong jaws, prominent eyebrow ridges, facial hair and deep voices. Testosterone is immunosuppressive. This means a man must be healthy and in good condition to withstand its effects on his development. Testosterone is also linked to other traits related to strength: fitness, fertility and dominance. From an evolutionary perspective, masculinity is basically man’s way of advertising good genes, dominance and likelihood to father healthier kids. When disease is a real threat, as it had been—and arguably still is—heritable health is invaluable.
The answer is apparently for women to ditch it as soon as it is safe to do so. Hence the preference for feminine looking men in women from countries with medical provision. The reason American society is so full of atavistic knuckle-draggers is because its health care (until recently) was so primitive. Now that Obamacare has been passed the United States has every prospect of truly joining “Western civilized societies”. They are leaving the dark ages of Gary Cooper and John Wayne and entering the bright sunlit uplands of Mr. Sensitivo. America’s high masculinity rankings, properly understood, are an indictment of its national character.
And where does the U.S. stand in the masculinity ranking? The answer is fifth out of the 30 countries in the study, one of the highest. This is, after all, the home of James Dean and Clint Eastwood. And where does America stand in the health index ranking? Twentieth of 30 countries, one of the least healthy.
With Obamacare passed it’s time to blow-dry your hair (if you have any) and apply that subtle cologne. But there’s a price. Taken to its limit this theory explains the Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire: when a society becomes richer and more stable the he-men go out of fashion. The fops rule the roost. The girlie-men get the all girls. And so it goes until the barbarians arrive at the City Gates. Then overnight he-men are back in demand. But by then the race of two fisted men are extinct and the women are ravished by he-men of a different sort. The kind who rape, pillage, burn and torture. Ultimately they burn all the books, put women under heavy veils and go back to the economy of raising goats. So the evolutionary psychology also explains the Dark Ages.
But the theory fails to explain many observable facts. It would seem that the gangsta man with a gun in his pocket has a much better chance of fathering 10 children than the poor working stiff with a cucumber sandwich and some bananas in his non-leather low-carbon briefcase. Try coming home every night at 6 PM, turning over your entire paycheck and devoting your entire weekend to mowing the lawn. How attractive will you be to a certain sort of woman? Of course to these certain sorts the solution according to the article, is to seek out the perfect man. The caring, high status sort of, kind of he-man.
Then again, women have always asked, why must we choose either/or in a mate, and not all-in-one? In a study of 107 American married couples, evolutionary psychologists David Buss and Todd Shackelford found that beautiful women (as determined by averaged ratings of eight teams of male and female interviewers) want it all in a partner: masculine, physically fit, loving, educated, desirous of home and children, a few years older than themselves and with a high income potential.
… Will any of this change as American women become increasingly secure economically, socially and medically? A study led by psychologist Fhionna Moore at the University of Andrews finds that as women’s level of “resource control” increases—that is, they become more financially independent—their preference for good-looking men increases. So will it be considered progress if women start pursuing “metrosexuals”—impeccable guys who exfoliate, order salads for dinner and carry man purses? This remains an open question, and it’s fun to speculate. Perhaps the vision of artist Corita Kent will come to pass: “Women’s liberation is the liberation of the feminine in the man and the masculine in the woman.”
But is this the perfect man? Even if he were, the metrosexual type described is available only to people who live within a very narrow stratum of society, unless we are to believe each station of women in life should have progressively lower-rent versions of Anderson Cooper until we finally get to the men tricked out in finery from the five and dime. But by then they would be parodies rather than real catches. And how many perfect metrosexuals are available to the unattractive, not very smart woman? All the ugly people, where do they all belong?
Ah, look at all the lonely people
Ah, look at all the lonely peopleEleanor Rigby picks up the rice in the church where a wedding has been
Lives in a dream
Waits at the window, wearing the face that she keeps in a jar by the door
Who is it for?All the lonely people
Where do they all come from?
All the lonely people
Where do they all belong?
The final objection to this theory is that it fails to account for why the he-man should allow himself to be pushed into oblivion by this turn of events. There is no unresisted extinction without consent. Any he men who let this happen to them aren’t. Perhaps real life is more complicated than this simple paradigm. One Valentine’s Day I saw what must have been a retarded man buying a box of chocolates in a supermarket. Later, I saw the same man at the bus stop, wearing a clean shirt and tie holding hands with a mentally handicapped woman of his own age. John Buchan asked whether the lasting things in God’s sight were not the oceans nor the lofty mountains, but the love of fragile creatures for each other. Maybe the real explanation for the apparent preference for androgyny is a desire not to fall in love with someone else, but to fall in love with ourselves. In that case feminism is neither the liberation of the feminine in the man nor the masculine in the woman, but the denial of both. Not love, but vanity is blind.
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Such fun to speculate!! As we release our male/female innards, one cannot but notice that the girly men are less likely to stick around to be a husband and father (being as how they are into “self expression”) which involves old ideas such as determination and self-sacrifice.
I keep on thinking: does no-one in Western leadership know that it is perfectly lousy to be on the losing side of a war??
Boy, is Whiskey going to have fun with this topic. I truly look forward to his take on this.
WHISKEY!!!
The authors should cross-correlate their data with fertility rates. From the sound of it, those well-medicated feminizing countries are also the ones with lifetime fertility rates around 1.5.
Which all makes a hell of a lot of sense, doesn’t it?
Whiskey comes often in bottles
Though Whiskey may come in a keg
Now Whiskey thinks women the problem
With which I once differed to beg
But now that they dislike us studdly
I may have to change and agree
For now that they like their men cuddly
That seems to exclude guys like me
From the sound of it, those well-medicated feminizing countries are also the ones with lifetime fertility rates around 1.5.
And let’s not forget, all the hormones from all the birth control pills have been getting, er, to cop a phrase from TOTUS, wee-wee’ed into the water supply for decades now in the affluent countries … my understanding is that the water treatment plants do not screen out pharmaceutical residues (or whatever you want to call them) with their current filtration methods. So back they go into our bodies. Or so I understand.
Anyone have more/better info on this?
If it’s true that we have been systematically “estrogen-ed” for 40+ years now, that would explain a lot, wouldn’t it? (Talk about your “developed countries”!)
My late father grew up on a ranch in the northern foothills of the Rockies. One of his favorite expressions was “there is a jack for every jenny.” Jack being a jackass. Jenny being a female jackass.
Like Richard Pryor said, “Women have half the money, and all the pussy.”
I remember pretty distinctly that in the immediate aftermath of 9/11, there were multiple “news” features (read: feel-good fluff that appeared on supposedly news programs) about how manly men were “back.” “Back” was defined as, “back in style.” It wasn’t that these men had gone away, just that they & what they daily contribute to society had been roundly ignored and/or underappreciated.
The firefighters and cops who died in the Twin Towers, and the iron workers, dozer operators & construction crews who were dismantling the sad wreckage at Ground Zero in the search for bodies, all represented the “manly men,” and we saw them on our TV and internet news every night. As you would expect, they bore more of a resemblance to John Goodman than to Tom Cruise. But somehow the lack of strict weight & eyebrow maintenance was not seen as being of paramount importance for the tasks they were undertaking.
And then, somewhere along the way, that renewed celebration of guy’s guys faded away … along with the ubiquitous doorpost flags … and we went back to a 9/10 mentality.
The husband of a co-worker of mine (boyfriend of hers at the time) joined the military after 9/11 and got deployed while the afterglow of this “go men” rush was still in the air. By the time he got back from his first tour of Iraq, “Queer Eye for the Straight Guy” was one of the big new hits on TV.
“What the hell happened while I was away???” he wanted to know.
Um, I think Marty just scored a knockout.
The other alternative being, the study sucks. Done on the Internet by whoever logged in. Maybe half the correspondents were gay men.
Note the sample picture also has the neck narrowed, women really prefer the pencil-necked geek?
The “masculine” picture might also be interpreted as “fat”, in countries where that is a problem. Excuse me, out of potato chips here.
I doubt that American women are waiting breathlessly for a million or so so-so copies of Mr. “I Feel Pretty” John Edwards:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kCAFkfFLQQ
Those of you that can see the Tocque or see that little doohickey beside the comments should hit the Zoom icon. It’ll take you, among others things, to the an experimental feature which harvests all the external links commenters embed in their comments. We can also add stuff free-form. The idea is that we have a self-generating “mini-Drudge” page of links that just arises from the discussion.
Now having said that, will someone explain to me what the attractive “feminine” type being described in the article is? I don’t think it means a pallid, thin-chested programmer with Jolt Cola stains on his teeth and monitor-burn on his face. It’s not enough to be a non-Clint Eastwood type. There’s more to it.
Anderson Cooper is not a metrosexual. He is a homosexual. That is why he knew what he was saying when he started calling people “Tea Baggers.”
Most of these problems are simply the result of veneers of learned behaviors that have been imposed over a fairly short time of two to three generations. These are mere affectations that can be easily scraped off if, to mix metaphors, the frog is given reason to jump out of the water. The repudiation of the current monopoly on education by the feminized, a pejorative that did not apply to Albert Shanker, and left wing teacher’s unions and the reinstitution of a period of controlled military service would result in a male population less tolerant of ritualized abuse and women more appreciative of men who genuinely like them.
The assignment to this phenomenon of responsibility for the Fall of the Roman Empire without significant supporting evidence stretches credulity. The Romans were tough characters and their critics in the early Christian Church were tough enough to face the lions. The prettified image of them says more about Hollywood in the 20th century than of Rome in the 3rd or Ravenna in the 4th.
bogie wheel,
What explains the rise of “Queer Eye For the Straight Guy” during the time the troops were fighting in Iraq is probably the smae thing that explains the surge for ratification of the XVIIIth and XIXth Amendments during the First World War and its aftermath. All the men were out of town or busy.
Marty,
Well said.
Walt is spot on. Where is whiskey when we need him? Maybe out stalking a few metro’s?
In the long run, Darwin is never wrong. The fittest will survive and live to procreate.
One question comes to mind. I’m not sure the guys who look “the most manly” are the most manly. Some of the toughest, most responsible fellows I’ve known you wouldn’t look at twice.
Women follow fashions in clothing and in men, and those changes from week to week. It might be said all those changing thoughts insure survival, too. It is just another way of nature saying “ya gotta shop around.”
I wouldn’t say that nowadays women prefer the “metro-sexual” style of men for reproduction because of social protections, whatever they are. It’s rather because we have become a civilisation of leisures, where it isn’t fashionable to be bored. A life with the same man isn’t full of surprises, boring moments aren’t scarce, that were beared by our parents and grand-parents because they haden’t external excitments, and were more likely to divert themselves into a hobby occupation, gardening, embroidery, knitting… or for a man, to realise some self hand-made objects, or hunting… playing cards, café discussions…
So, in a society that allows so many leisures occupations, women are more exposed to make some meetings, where they are likely to be courted too, without that that bring misunderstandings at home, they can also make comparison with the life they live and the life that they could live, depends if the possible new partners are convinceful.
The rough men generally aren’t talkative, so if women want to be heared, they turn towards persons that have an empathic ear, and that can provide them advices, or that can entertain them… they get the impression that changing their partner will bring them happyness. At the beginning, sure, it’s all new, but after a few years, their life isn’t different than the one they had with their former partner, smelling, snoring, farting… uh, laundry, washing up, toilets clansings… all the same !
So in these perspectives, the “metro-sexual” men have more chance to be chosen, because they are careful for the neatness of their home, for their look, for sharing the washing up, the laundry, for accompany their wives to a boring intellectual show, they manage to not fart in their presence, if they snore, they sleep in another bedroom or get operated…
So in our society of aboundance, we have many choices of goods, of merchandises, of men (and or women)
The poorest countries can’t afford our leisures, for their main occupation is focusing on how to bring some food at home, how to survive to illnesses and or to catastrophes, and likely women would choose healthy men that can work hard, and that are expected to live long enough to raise the whole family, until their elder children can replace him.
so this study, is like the one when Brit scientists said to give some fish powder to the cows so that they fart less, thus decrease their contribution to the carbon-ised planet !
I’ve become acquainted over the years with a few SEALS, and met a number of them during the Vietnam War era, when I lived near the Little Creek Virginia base where they trained. While some of them looked exactly as you might expect a tough bastard to look, many of them didn’t look much different- superficially – from pretty much anyone else.
As it’s been splained in various places, the BUDS training and “Hell Week” are meant to identify people with the will and persistence to keep going despite stupendous cold, hunger, sleep deprivation, exhaustion, and suchlike. Not surprisingly this quality of inextinguishable determination can be found among people of all sorts of physiques. You build the specialized tactical skills on top of that, and you have a warrior that can do extraordinary things, with a self-reliance matched only by loyalty to the other members of the team.
Admittedly, the SEALS I’ve gotten to know later have gone through a lot of changes, adding dimensions and layers to the underlying core of the warrior. One guy I spend a lot of time with conducts a church choir and plays music in a community orchestra. He tells me he’s calmed down a lot since mustering out. But no question, he is still a self-reliant warrior, ready to do what needs to be done, and capable of sizing up a situation pretty quickly.
Some cynics might predict that women who have opted for feminized metrosexuals for whatever combination of reasons will be disinclined to persevere through deprivations and short rations in the times to come.
Now having said that, will someone explain to me what the attractive “feminine” type being described in the article is?
Speculating wildly, young, child-like, unthreatening yet attached and faithful. Men like young women. If they are not needed as providers, go for the boy-toys. As they age, toss them aside and get a new one.
Concepts of manliness or femininity follow cycles over time, just as economies do. During periods just after a Crisis, especially a major war, manly men are in and women are more womanly. As each generation comes of age, the differences in men and women become less stark.
So as the boomers came of age women entered the workforce, claimed they didn’t need men and men were supposed to become more sensitive. Eventually as Gen’Xers matured women became hardened and tough and men became meterosexuals. And therein lies Whiskeys whole thesis.
It is interesting to see this cycle in the various Star Trek series and the portrayal of women. In the original, Kirk was the manliest of men and women across the galaxy had one role only, and that was to fall for Kirk by the end of the episode. Uhuru, the only main woman character was essentially the secretary.
By the Next Generation (1980′s) women had bigger roles on the Enterprise. But they still were in subordinate, more feminine caretaking roles, such as ship doctor and ship counselor. And there was very little fighting during the series. The men were all straightjacketed by the ‘prime directive’ and seemed to spend most of their time wringing their hands over what they were allowed to do.
By the late 90′s and early 2000′s, a look at the Star Gate series shows the 180 degree turn. The main woman character on that show, Samantha Carter, is tougher than most men I know. Sam excels in the manliest of sciences, theoretical physics, and can kick dozens of alien ass at a moments notice.
However, as we enter the next crisis, gender roles will begin to diverge again. Men will be expected to be tougher. Tough times do not call for whining and crying. They do not call for handwringing or straightjackets of committee proclaimed rules. They call for harsh measures, taking it like a man and getting the job done. As men become more manly, women will become more feminine. Because the truth is, the bubble is over. Unreality is out. Reality is in, and it isn’t going to be pretty. Women cannot kick dozens of asses. Women have other strengths that will be called upon, and no longer will play the game of being pretend men that this wealth bubble has allowed us to play. When the men are out fighting, either for the families economic survival or in war, somebody has to stay home and take care of the house and kids. And someone has to be there to give men the much needed womanly touch– a tender understanding, admiration of what he has sacrificed, and a hope and ideal of family that he strives for. Women will become Betty waiting at home, the pinup gal every guy dreams of, and Mrs. Miniver holding down the homefront.
See, there’s hope yet, Whiskey!
Mad Fiddler,
Concur. The only distinguishing physical feature I noticed in the SEALs I met were their wide shoulders. Some were otherwise not particularly large or tough looking. In temperament they tended to project the calm demeanor of the big dog that sees no reason to start a fight, being confident that he can end one. My expectation is that they make excellent Junior High School teachers.
The current crop of urban dilettantes of many sexes are I think less likely to survive if hard times move them to Green Acres then the real Hungarian import Gabor sisters, or the men they gravitated towards, would have.
Writing about the Scotch-Irish, the historian David Hackett Fischer made the rather shrewd, I think, observation that there is a correlation between endemic violence and strict gender roles – that the more violent a society is the sharper the distinction between male and female behavior. That certainly seems to have been true in Norse society – in a culture with a very high level of violence, you rarely see women taking up arms (apart from mythological figures such as the valkyries and Hervor). Henrietta Arnow, writing about the settlement of the Tennessee river during the 18th century, commented that she had yet to find an example of a woman firing a gun, despite continual brushes with hostile Indians. While I certainly haven’t been able to investigate every traditional culture to check on this pattern, I have yet to run across a well-documented exception, so I think there is definitely a cross-cultural pattern, as Fischer suggests.
If so, modern feminism and female soldiery are the result of a culture without much low-level violence, and a testimony to the generally peacable nature of the western male. Something to chew over.
Why is my comment not loading?
Too long, too many links? Please advise. Mind control rays set at maximum.
Not to derail the conversation about the asskicking potential of women (high, in my opinion, if they perceive their or others’ children are in danger; for most, otherwise low, though there are always exceptions), but this caught my eye:
does no-one in Western leadership know that it is perfectly lousy to be on the losing side of a war??
The problem is that most Western leadership thinks being on the losing side of a war means something like being the Americans after Vietnam: embarrassed, humbled. This is what they think of as losing a war. But they have no notion at all of what it means to be the Vietnamese after Vietnam. That’s not even on their radar.
Elby — the fantasy of the kick ass woman is just that, a fantasy. Read EB Sledge’s “With the Old Breed” and pencil in how most women would endure (or not) the horrendous physical not to mention emotional conditions of combat. I don’t think so.
We like to pretend there are no differences, everyone is equal in ability and preferences because we have made (properly so) everyone equal in rights.
Hmm … wonder if this goes through?
will someone explain to me what the attractive “feminine” type being described in the article is
Think “young”. A man who looks like a very young man in late adolescence, not quite full-grown; a little less heavy of bone and facial hair, though recognizably male. A lot of recent movie stars look like this. Not dweeb-like, not weak-looking particularly, but not quite as adult as Clint Eastwood.
Let me add, I doubt there is hope. We simply cannot recover from a demographic and technological catastrophe. Hand either sex, men or women, absolute power and they will wreck their society. Women have absolute power, sexually, in society, and have wrecked it. Meanwhile the sterile and lifeless culture of Arabian patriarchy promises to simply overwhelm everywhere, every time, in an image of a sandal stomping on the human face, forever. A society of arranged marriages and harems does not create much other than human misery. But then, as Dalrymple notes, neither does sexually free Britain.
This is a redo of my former comments, eaten by Pajamas:
Mind control rays … slowly working on Wretchard. Must increase … intensity!
I’ve been out and about, a glorious day here in SoCal, a bit hot with the Santa Ana, but beautiful.
My take is a bit different than Wretchards, naturally I would not be Whiskey if it was not!
IMHO, the pressures of hunter-gatherer life, low food/shelter resources, constant travel, led to relatively “flat” hierarchies, defacto monogamy, if the big man takes your mate you can stick a spear in him, and your kinfolk leave with you. Even the mightiest hunter goes empty, due to bad luck, and every hand is needed against the neighboring tribe. This was humanity for about 50,000 years or so.
Then, the invention of cities and agriculture, had much higher population densities, division of labor, and an explosion in food sources. Women had to select based on radically unequal resources. The arrogant, jerky behavior of the Alpha male meant that even sharing with 100 other women, you would get more resources for your offspring than all of a peasant. Even better, your offspring could fight to the death all his siblings to become supreme ruler. This was the pattern of Egypt, Babylonia, of Persia, and of Islam from Caliph to Turkish Sultan. Very stable, but filled with violence, dynastic instability, internal warfare, and little innovation. For example, the first Dark Ages came when the Bronze Age Empires: the Egyptians, Mycenaeans, Cretans, Hittites, Assyrians, and Babylonians using bronze weapons and chariots were overthrown by the Sea Peoples around 1100 BC — and only the Egyptians by retreating far up the Nile, survived. The Sea Peoples used iron swords and spears, seem to have sacked and destroyed every city around, rather than simply conquering them and using them as wealth generators. This first dark ages (Victor Davis Hanson wrote about here in Pajamas Media) lasted longer than the second in Europe, and had more complete effects.
The second innovation was harnessing the power of ordinary men, by dividing the spoils crucially AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, WOMEN, to ordinary men. Big men might have harems and mistresses, but not ALL or even MOST of the women. Women too had their independence, their own means, could say no to marriages, had some voice to a great deal, in their own affairs. But just as critically, women were restricted from indulging in the fantasy of being a harem girl, or one of the bad boys many conquests. You cannot get a man to fight and die for the Sultan’s harem, willingly. You cannot get a man to give his all … so that some rakish bad boy can screw his sweetie. That’s WHY Odysseus slew all of Penelope’s suitors. Why she remained faithful in the story. Otherwise why go through all the trouble in the first place?
Civilization in the Western sense requires a delicate balance point. Between women able to live their own lives without male oppression, and full reign to female hypergamy which results in no woman being worth fighting much less dying for. What man would fight and die for Sandra Bullock (the reality not her movie roles)? Or Paris Hilton?
Part One
I wonder the chances would be of metrosexuals standing “The Birkenhead Drill”? http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/women-and-children-first.html
Part Two (maybe this will post) sigh:
The problem is that women’s urges, all women, all the time, everywhere … for the fantasy of “taming” the bad boy: Jessie James, Charlie Sheen, Tiger Woods, David Duchovny, Warren Beatty, Kobe Bryant, Chris Brown, Eliot Spitzer, Bill Clinton, John Edwards (of course still popular among women), and so on, is incompatible with the requirement for boundaries, firm and fixed, on women’s sexual behavior. That there is basically only a few partners, only a few choices, and women have to compromise in order to invest the great mass of men who are good at other things than being a sexy, dominating, womanizing bad boy.
Jane Austen in Pride and Prejudice, has her smart, sophisticated, and self-controlled heroine fall completely for the bad boy Wickham, and disdain the prideful, but good and rich suitor Darcy. Now, because of the mores and restrictions of the time, she can’t go and have sex with the guy and have a kid out of wedlock with him. So there is enough time and space for her to fall out of LUST with Wickham and in love with Darcy.
The problem is that Sparta, Rome, Babylon, and the West all gave/give women unrestricted, absolute sexual freedom and expect men, 90% of whom will not be bad boys, to be happy about 10% of men getting 80% of the women. To strive and struggle, to innovate and work deadly hours, to fight and die, for a woman’s right to have sex with Jessie James.
That does not happen, instead we have guys tuning out, dropping out, “herbivore men” in Japan, gamers in America, and so on. What woman in America really, is worthy of dying for, really, for the great mass of ordinary men? Their mothers? Certainly. Their sisters? If they have them. Who else? None.
An alternative explanation is that correlation is not explanation. That societies with high amounts of socialized medicine are highly stratified, and that women therefore have high sexual freedom, high subsidies extracted from men, and thus pursue rakish dandys unable and unwilling to fight and die for their rotating corps of mistresses none of whom are exclusive. Besides the dandys are too few in number to matter.
Meanwhile societies with no socialized medicine have more fluid social systems, so a masculine men who might be nothing now but something tomorrow is a better bet. A Thomas Edison, or Andrew Jackson.
Wretchards main error is assuming that men choose women. In fact it is always the reverse save total patriarchies like Islam or such, which most Westerners find repulsive even if they don’t admit it. Most men do not wish slaves or subjects for wives, rather a partner equal in rank and responsibility, and capable of intimacy and love equal to themselves. Women do not wish mirrors, rather they wish for highly cosseted dandies reminiscent of the Pharoah. With a breakdown of social mores, the influence of older woman (whispering: your beauty will soon wither, choose WISELY!) and women believing they will be young and beautiful forever (or that they have much sexual or romantic value beyond age 27, or with many many partners), or thinking they will have a sexual window equal to men’s (which closes too, but later than women’s) … we have a massive problem.
Western civilization requires constant innovation and mass mobilization of the resources of ordinary men, not just to fight and die but to constantly out-innovate competing groups. Who will do so for the women of Sex and the City? Meanwhile most women would be HAPPY to be in some big shot’s harem.
That above is me Whiskey. Pajamas Media going nuts tonight. Though probably my fault, malformed URL in one of my comments.
Well this healthy, lusty woman likes her men manly. In fact, the only persons I know who like girly men are the men who like men or women who don’t. As to cycles, I think those depend more on who is big in the fashion industry. When the industry is dominated by gay men, as it has been in recent years, we get women who look like prepubescent boys as the ideal and a whole lot of young females with anorexia trying to attain that look. And men who like the same way.
Why would any man care to be attractive to a woman who does not appreciate a good man?
I’ve been single and kind of looking since 2002 and what I’ve found, given that I’m beyond child-bearing which cuts my choices down to about 1%, is:
Men, no matter how old or out of shape, all think they are God’s gift to women.
Men think all women are gold diggers as they expect you to take care of them and be there Mommy.
Men want a chief cook and bottle washer.
Men only want sex and think they deserve it if they spend $5.00 on a Big Mac for you.
Men want to control you and can not deal with someone who is independent-minded.
Etc, etc., etc.
I, on the other hand, want someone who is there when I need him. Who will comfort me when I’m sad, who will change my tire or oil, wire the house for extra phones or Internet, and who tells me how delicious dinner was or better yet, cooks for me. If he has money, I just ask that it equals my small retirement so we can share the burdens of old age. And most of all someone trustworthy and intelligent enough to do more than grunt. I don’t care if he is a sex god in bed, everyone can be trained, if you are willing to take the time. And most of all, I do not want a man who spends more time at the gym than he does paying attention to me. Those kinds of men tend to be more in love with themselves than they ever could be with me.
My Mother told me that back in her teens and early twenties, it was fashionable for women to bind their breasts real tight and flat in order to achieve a certain look. Today, we have these size zero girls who go get D cup implants. Men don’t seem to mind feeling up a billiard ball or bowling ball inside a sock.
Limpet6@15: In the long run, Darwin is never wrong. The fittest will survive and live to procreate.
If it were only this, the would likely work to the race’s advantage. However, there are times when the less than fit also live to procreate. And also vote, alas!
Thank you, Whiskey. Always 100 proof.
Re 29
“The problem is that Sparta, Rome, Babylon, and the West all gave/give women unrestricted, absolute sexual freedom.”
Hmm? I have never heard or read anything which suggested that women of Sparta had any kind of sexual license – they had more responsibility than other Greek women, true, but complete sexual freedom? I think not. Rome had some pretty decadent upper class women, but I have no reason to believe that it filtered down much to the ordinary wives of citizens, and the ideal of the chaste Roman matron was still around until the end. Again, there were certainly Roman women who didn’t fit the chaste ideal and folks like Ovid celebrated extra-marital affairs, but calling it complete sexual freedom is stretching things too far. As for Babylon, if you have any hard information on the social conditions at the end of the Babylonian empire, I would love to see it. I don’t think such information exists.
There is very likely a tremendous self reinforcing aspect to this ‘research’ which biases the outcome substantially towards a pre-determined conclusion. To begin, utilizing a WHO guideline to determine a nation’s “health index” is problematic, to say the least. I’m certain that “efficient healthcare system” is synonymous with a Euro-style socialistic systems. As such, does the desirability of the androgynous male arise FROM a particular form of healthcare delivery? Or is it more likely that an already hopelessly feminized post-modern society is the exact sort which eventually requires months of paternity leave for lesbians as an exemplar for “efficient healthcare”?
Certainly the long-term viability of a civilization or nation is the most important metric by which to judge its health care system. Europe is failing terribly in that regard. Their demographic are terminal in the literal sense. They are dying. This is a direct consequence of the radical use of birth control by women who demand to have sex without fulfilling their fundemental biological functions of birthing babies and raising them. In that sense, and in others as well, feminism certainly appears to be a death warrant for a civilation. So much for putting wymyn in charge!
Wretchard that would be Zack Efron of Highschool Musical. Or Leo DeCaprio who can almost but not quite grow a beard now. Does that help?
I think you’re right, if certain men feel emasculated, they’ve done it to themselves. but if it gets them girls….and well, that’s the difference between girls and women and boys and men isn’t it? Girls can’t handle a real man so they go for boys.
so following whiskey’s analyse of the human genders, we would have 2 types of men that the women would worship, the Raphael image as the metro-sexual’s :
http://tinyurl.com/ycnxkjg
or Michaengelo muscular men, though his exacerbated manliness is much of the gay tastes than of the women’s
the biggest majority found and still find some charm in ordinary men like here:
http://tinyurl.com/ykwcmu6
ordinary men don’t bet on their manly muscles for dating women, but on their moral qualities, even in a society of arranged marriages like in Asia, in muslim countries, (generally parents prefer he best choice for their children)
The worshipping of metro-sexual, and or of the manly attitudes came from the late decades, where homosexuals took the monopole of making images, paintings, movies, fashion… as our medias can display them more easily than before, and as you know how powerful images are for educating (ie middle-ages churches) or diseducating, (violent, or licencious series on TV), so no wonder that these shemas influenced our political corrected mobs nowadays, in one way, they can’t condamn the persons that were seen as pervert and or weak before, and in the other way, for compensating, they dream of their contradictory images, of the harsh warrior and or of the bandit !
The dilemn of metro-sexuality and or warriorness, isn’t born from yesterday, each age had this questionnement,the images of renaissance witness of that, you can add the “Directoire” times of our history, that came after the violent Revolution.
Wretchard: Eva @36 is right, but also, think expensive. The whole ‘metrosexual’ thing is typified to a degree by the opening scene in American Pyscho. Like all other status symbols, the hair product, trendy clothes, facial scrubs, blah, blah, blah. It costs money. It’s a BMW you wear, basically. I’ve always thought that was part of it.
Sara (Pal2Pal) is very, very close… We do think all women are gold diggers, but we appreciate ENORMOUSLY a woman who can solve problems without being ‘that girl’. (And not the old tv show.) What I mean by that is that we really, really, really DON’T want to tell a woman what to do. We want her to at least offer some kind of solution when she complains about something because believe me… it drives us completely up the wall when you don’t, then we have to offer a solution and try to fix it… and you get mad b/c you just want to vent… AAAAAAAAAHHHH!
Ain’t love grand?
But here’s another question: What happens when this study is compared to say, defense expenditures? Or perhaps the index of economic freedom?
What if women believe that when there is something worth fighting for, it’s good to have people capable and predisposed to the fight?
Wretchard – did you remove your “tip” jar? I wanted to contribute again and can’t seemed to locate it on this site. Where else in this galaxy can you find articles and commentary on such items as Healthcare, Nuclear Weapons, Survival and Girley Men?
EDIT – NEVERMIND – just found it – it is located within each entry. Ah.
Whiskey, ‘… What woman in America really, is worthy of dying for, really, for the great mass of ordinary men? Their mothers? Certainly. Their sisters? If they have them. Who else? None.’ Wow, you don’t have a very good opinion of women do you? I’m betting you just insulted most of the women here. Harem fantasies? Be honest, that’s more of a guy fantasy.
You’re going a little overboard on the archetypes here. The He-man and the Girlie man are far opposites of the spectrum and are not the only choices women have. Personally I prefer a man toward the He-man side but not the domineering knuckledragger that some women seem to think they can change. I’m a pretty strong minded independant woman so a man has to be able to hold his own with me, but he has to be someone I can hold my own with too.
Wow, I was almost right about something. Might be a first.
I think what men think women want is probably 180 degrees from what women really do want, but we are all conditioned to play the game. Sometimes on offense, sometimes on defense.
But then, what do I know? I’m a woman who can barely stomach the company of other women. I always feel like an alien when I listen to them blather on. Men are far more interesting and, really more easily led as long as you make them think it is their idea. My Aunt used to say to me, “I’ve expended a whole lot of energy to make sure Uncle Norm thinks he thought of it first.”
True that sometimes we do “just want to vent.” But, alot of the time we consider it an insult that you think you can fix everything and we are too dumb to fix it for ourselves. Many times it isn’t venting, we really just want a sounding board to get a good handle on the problem. And besides, I think most women think men leave the fixin’ to them, especially if it is going to be messy.
AMEN!
Sara, unfortunately at this point you’re left picking through the remnants bin, the ones no other woman wanted to pick up. Unless they’re a recent widower or just got dumped by an idiot, there’s probably a reason they’re unattached.
Tried to put this second link in, and got knocked out as spam.
…anyhoo, just paste
“new york times editor Sulzberger example of feminine”
into Google to get the results
Where are the manly men of Carl Sandberg’s “Chicago, the city of big shoulders” ?Now it produces our hip little junior wannabe presidente for life and his two bit posse of drugstore commies.
Amongst other losses as we transcend into our glorious service economy(“Do you want fries with that order, sir”?)is the loss of guys like my dad coming home from the factory 5 days a week with caustic soda ulcers on his legs and a couple quarts of Genesee beer in the ice box.
JMH:
Unfortunately I think you are spot on, except I would leave widowers off the list. My experience with them is that no matter how happy or unhappy the marriage was, the dead wife is always a saint. Who wants to compete with that? You can’t.
I know a woman who has been married nine times. I asked her how she keeps finding men to marry. She is 4 years older than I am and still going strong. She told me to start hanging out at the VFW.
I know a man who is on his 7th wife. As soon as one leaves, he is on to the next woman and so it goes.
My son’s father married a 5x loser who did nothing but complain about how all the men in her life dump her. I tried to warn him that if 5 other husbands couldn’t stick around, perhaps he should think twice. He wouldn’t listen, accused me of being jealous, and now he is Number 6.
“Men don’t seem to mind feeling up a billiard ball or bowling ball inside a sock.”
Sara,
This guy is disgusted by implants.
As a consequence, I cannot report on my reaction to feeling same.
(also turned off by overly white teeth and pasted on makeup)
—
re:
Obamacare –
Hewitt caller said a friend called to report that she had canceled her daughter’s (non-trivial) dental appointment, since she’d soon go for free thanks to BHO!
O/T – House sends letter affirming relationship with Israel -
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2010/03/025944.php
Well, good news for a change!
O/T – House sends letter affirming relationship with Israel
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2010/03/025944.php
Good news for a change -
Manly men celebrate womanhood, and women notice. Today, thanks to the feminazis, men think women are either objects or someone they must compete with. A few years ago I would have worded that sentence “younger men think,” but the mindset has become insidious and now even men who were brought up to think of themselves as protectors of women and who believed that to be a man, he should take care of his family, are getting more and more scarce.
Give me a man who when I take point will say go for it, I have your back. And who doesn’t feel threatened when I step up and do the same for him.
Whiskey’s mind control rays remind me of my dog’s intense efforts at psychokinesis at the dinner table. Meat loaf! To me!!
There has always been just enough meat to Brother Whiskey’s psychosocialsexual analysis that my metrosexual conditioning hasn’t summoned the gumption to dispute. Our kind host seems to agree with him, but saves us with his customary humane humanistic twist.
Evolution. Man the animal. Man’s social arrangements. Man’s memes. Breeding populations, social groups, ideas in multidimensional space – all in multiplex competition and random change through the fourth dimension. (Meanwhile, molecular biological evidence of yet a third Pleistocene human species sharing Siberian space.)
The mind boggles …
Still, whichever way the wind blows, our brother Storm Rider will remind us that the American Constitution is the best possible refuge for us imperfect, mutable humans. And right he is.
Surgeon Creates Implant-Free Boob Job
Double Yuck.
—
“Children give more than they take,
…and they take everything.”
– Dana Carvey
Who also notes that “Class Clown” is always singular.
There can be only one number one.
My dog’s intense efforts at psychokinesis at the dinner table.
Also true of Feline Americans, particularly when it’s a nice piece of fish in question– although my two will also give me that you-don’t-really-want-that-whole-thing-do-you look in regard to chicken or turkey. The laserlike focus and catly attempts to hypnotize the human caregiver would be the envy of any politician.
Which brings up a whole ‘nuther interesting question, namely the evolutionary strategies of domestic pets in seeking or securing human companionship. Especially given the widespread stereotype of cats as feminine and dogs as masculine (“dogfight” suggests a very different type of combat from “catfight,” even though most incidents of actual cat fighting are between intact toms).
I am not sure exactly where this observation fits into the question of metrosexuality versus traditional gender roles, but I do know of a number of relationships that broke up over household pets. I suspect it is related to the fact that many people consider a person’s treatment of animals a useful clue to their attitude toward other humans. Incidentally, has anyone heard anything about Bo the White House dog lately, or has he served his purpose as a useful distraction when Gibbsy needs to deflect unwanted questions from the press corps?
Whiskey is essentially right in that sexual selection IS a female function. Sara demonstrates this perfectly.
It is the female of the species that enforces the selection criteria, accepting the preferred display and rejecting that not just so. Sexuality might be the perfect laboratory for the nature vs nurture debate about human nature. The human female is presented with a paradox about the apparent mutual exclusivity between biological fitness and social fitness, compounded by the tension between fertility and commitment to child rearing.
These are not mere idle points of conversation of a late night. We, the civilized, are facing a demographic crisis unknown since the Thirty Years War, and sexual selection lies at its heart.
Nannies Turn Baby Boys Into Skirt Chasers: Shrink
They fall in love with the ‘other woman’
– Nannies introduce the idea of the “other woman” into the psyche of baby boys and make them more likely to be womanizers when they’re grown, a psychiatrist claims. Even after marriage, he’ll have “at the back of his mind the notion of this other woman, who knows and caters to all his needs,” shrink Dennis Friedman, 85, explains to the Telegraph. “It creates a division in his mind between the woman he knows to be his natural mother and the woman with whom he has a real hands-on relationship.”
At 85, I’ll need a nanny!
How does a little kitten catch a big salmon? Or a yellowfin tuna? Where did the species acquire this passion?
The feline mistress of our household, (no stereotype, simple gender fact), manages all, matter of factly. (When she is overly picky, in my merely human opinion, I try to remind of all of those poor starving dogs in the bedroom, but to no avail …
So, tell me Sara, if you were the dead wife, how would you want him to remember you? Would you want the next rack that walks through the door to relegate your photos to the bottom drawer, face down and forgotten? If the guy could easily shove the memory of his previous wife aside, won’t he probably have a few of the other pathologies you are complaining about?
I think you’re setting yourself up for failure here. It’s not an uncommon habit when faced with a challenge. Talk yourself into it being impossible so there’s no shame in failure, even though you guaranteed failure yourself.
And with that, I’ll hand the amaateur psychologizing back to the professionals.
JMH,
If you add something kind to the psychologizing, I’m sure she would appreciate, having just lost a dear friend.
Murdoch to Sulzberger: You Are a Girly Man
How does a little kitten catch a big salmon? Or a yellowfin tuna? Where did the species acquire this passion?
I’ve often wondered about that myself, given that the ancestor of the present-day domestic house cat, Felis silvestris lybica, is thought to have evolved in the desert regions of Asia, far from any significant source of fish. Maybe the critters developed a taste for seafood from hanging around humans.
Anyway I would agree with you about their ability to manage entire households!
Oh puhleeze! I am stating fact, not passing judgment on how he should perceive a dead wife.
I doubt seriously that I would ever even consider a man who refers to me as a “rack.”
Well, I’m not trying to be unkind, but the problem, whether it’s modern women in general, or Sara in particular, is one of expectations. I think Sara is smart and strong enough to wrestle her expectation into line with reality and find a path with a chance of happiness. Never let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Now, how many 20-somethings wandering around today looking for the perfect metrosexual modern man will ever wise up, I dunno. I hope so. The young women of my (purely platonic) acquaintance range from ditzy to very sharp, but most seem to have a functional outlook on life. Surveys and studies make me wonder if I’m living a sheltered life.
Some writers have pointed out that the US never stepped back from the wartime full employment goals that put a huge number of women in the workforce during WWII.
Is this a good thing or a bad thing?
You have to look in detail at the consequences. It should be a good thing for women to see close up what the men had to go through to bring home a paycheck, just as surely as for a man to understand first hand what it takes to keep a home in order and raise kids.
What happens two generations later when boys and girls grow up fully expecting each to be fully employed with unhindered access to a “meaningful job?”
… in a situation where the jobs that used to be just enough to keep men employed have all been taken, and the economy HAS to expand to make room for additional job seekers?
My own experience in the 1970′s and 80′s was that the young woman I married was deeply conflicted in her expectations. She simultaneously expected to have a management job before she’d been out of college for 3 years, AND for her husband to be the primary breadwinner, fully able to let her quit working at any time to have babies to fill the house she absolutely expected us to own. When the recession following the ineptitude of James Earl Carter eroded the country I continued scrambling for contracts in the industry I’d been doing more or less successfully for a decade. To keep meet our expenses I worked part-time as a stock clerk, played music in dinner theater for $25 per show, and construction in the daytime. It wasn’t enough. My wife concluded I was a loser who would never be able to support her, and decamped. Admittedly, she was ten years younger, and hadn’t had the life experience of seeing that things inevitably cycle through easy times and hard times. But it was not at all atypical of the attitudes of her contemporaries as far as I could see.
Since then it has been a repeated experience that women I’ve dated – even when they are earning significantly more than I am – expect me to pick up the check at dinner, pick’em up in my car and drive’em around, and help’em with physical chores at their homes, without reciprocating. At the same time, they claim to expect the workplace to be devoid of any detectible shred of gender-based discrimination.
Through all of this, with the exception of Christian women, I’ve found that most females in the “dating pool” over 35 are at least as sexually aggressive as I was in my twenties, and frequently very explicit about their expectations. If you aren’t ready to bed them, they’re off to find someone else.
In other words, the so-called sexual revolution has turned into a schizophrenic nightmare of irreconcilable expectations. A WHOLE LOTTA women want to have the freedom to have sex with anyone at any time, without the consequences of pregnancy, emotional upheaval, OR unwanted attention in the workplace, or anyplace else. But they still expect a man to be faithful, loyal, willing to work indefinitely to keep the woman of his dreams satisfied, to be ready at the drop of a hat to service her sexually, and STFU the rest of the time. Oh, yeah, and his wages go into their joint account, while her wages are HER money.
This is the pattern I’ve seen over and over. My response has been to be extremely cautious about women and dating. Not much percentage in it. If that’s my response, I have to wonder what’s going on for a lot of other men.
Meanwhile, the culture has become totally sexualized in its imagery, music, and clothing. Halloween costumes feature whore and pimp costumes for 8-year-olds, Gangsta rap describes a world in which women are NOTHING but sex objects to be beaten, raped, and kept in their place. A huge number of 12-year-old girls hang out at the mall soliciting, and those who aren’t turning tricks are giving blow jobs to boys at parties. STDs are epidemic, to the extent that one out of three high school girls are estimated to be infected with chlamydia, gonnorhea, or syphilis, and public schools are exhorting mothers to have their daughters universally inoculated against HPV, which is primarily a sexually-transmitted virus.
Seems like things gotta change, or the whole country is going to turn into one big open running sore.
Hey, I know that there are good people out there, who can be passionate and vital without living untidy lives. But the culture has turned to crap. Comintern did its job with a vengeance.
#58 Doug
FWIW, girly-man Pinch is in hot water for his salary bonus last year, when he was demanding that employees of the NYT-owned Boston Globe swallow pay and benefit cuts.
Those paydays that New York Times Co. Chairman Arthur Sulzberger and President Janet Robinson received last year are once again coming back to haunt them.
The Boston Newspaper Guild, which absorbed more than $10 million in pay and benefit cuts to members last year in order to save The Boston Globe, has lashed out at the Sulzberger and Robinson 2009 bonuses and are demanding their lost wages and benefits be restored.
“We were astonished to learn that the two of you received more than $10 million in stock awards and options in 2009,” the Guild wrote in an open letter urging its members to send to Sulzberger and Robinson. “During the year for which you were so richly rewarded, the 600 members of the Boston Newspaper Guild gave back almost the same amount in pay and benefit reductions — $10 million to be exact — after you threatened to close our newspaper, lay off hundreds of people, and strip Massachusetts of its largest newspaper.”
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/pay_unfit_to_mention_gEvfTkuSkN9btHnfaKutDJ
Perhaps a bit out of line, I apologize, but that was supposed to be the dead wife thinking a bit jealously of the new woman in her husband’s life. The point is still the same, and an extrapolation of the comments about 6th or 7th marriages. The widower you might be dating is the same guy that was the husband to the dead wife. If he was a lousy husband, then you don’t want him anyway. If he was a good husband, then you’ll have to share the qualities that made him that with his previous wife. If you don’t want to share, that’s your choice, but like you said, field’s a bit limited already. Would you rather share a good man with his sainted dead wife or have a lout all to yourself?
Realities suck sometimes, which is something I suspect we’re all going to have plenty of experience with in the near future.
PA,
Whatta Guy!
On a similar note:
Have you heard the wonderfully boozy Max Baucus asserting that a goal of Obamacare is to level things out between the haves and have nots?
He then goes on to say:
“The rich have just gotten too wealthy the last few years!”
Lileks looked him up in Wikipedia and found that he owns 125,000 acres in Montana!
…5th generation.
High wages, capital gains, and profits are evil.
Inherited wealth, when it’s theirs,
not so much.
—
Max Baucus admits that healthcare reform is about wealth redistribution…
He plainly admits that this bill is an “income shift– a leveling …
Strange, wonder where lileks saw that, i didn’t.
When I was first single after 32 years of marriage, it was culture shock. Things had changed so drastically since the last that I’d been in the dating scene, I was lost. Everything I thought I believed to be true got turned upside down. I got kind of jaded after just a few months.
I decided to sit down and do one of my lists of pros and cons. I like to do this when faced with a problem. I thought about my husband and all the things about him that drove me nuts and put that on the con side. It became a long list. So I tried to extrapolate, incorrectly it turned out, that I should stay away from men who had tendencies that matched those cons.
When I made the list of pro things, the things I appreciated about my husband, the list was much shorter, but as I studied the list, I realized that quantity wasn’t the criteria. As it turned out, the pros, even though fewer, were so much more important and the lengthier con list contained a whole bunch of little things that really weren’t all that important in the whole scheme of things. Some were, of course. For instance, my husband would never commit to a decision and left all the major decisions to me, yet if things didn’t turn out as well as expected, he was the first to criticize. This particular trait of his drove me batty. There are some decisions in a marriage that should be joint decisions and neither party should have to take the full brunt if things aren’t perfect all the time.
Most of the pros, it turned out, tended to be value oriented, although my need for a Mr. Handyman generated several pros as he could build or fix anything.
It is a very useful clue. Men who have never had to be responsible or shun responsibility for a pet (or their children) are usually men too self-serving or self-centered and they aren’t going to change.
And for the men who think all women are gold diggers, ask yourself if you aren’t confusing money with power. I think power is a far greater aphrodisiac for women than the size of a bank account. Power and leadership qualities. Although powerful men may have more money too, I think the leaders show their leadership qualities, and are therefore powerful, long before they earn a dime.
JMH:
I’m not trying to tar all widowers. I just don’t want to compete with a memory that grows fonder with time. I’m just as leery of the widower who does nothing but complain about the dead wife or who refers to her in what I would consider insulting terms.
To tell the truth, I’ve gotten to the point where I think, yes I could share my bed with this guy on a permanent basis, but am I ready to share my closet or dresser drawers?
Once I got over the shock that the garbage doesn’t put itself out and that whether I like it or not, I’m going to have to climb that ladder if I want to hang draperies or put the angel on top of the Christmas tree, or worse that I would actually have to untangle last year’s Christmas lights if I wanted to put them up, I discovered that I kind of like being independent with no one to worry about and no one to answer to.
bogie (#6), I can only speak of where I live; YM(and water supply)MV.
Our sewage treatment (of whatever adequacy) ultimately discharges into Puget Sound.
Our water supplies come from streams high in the Cascades, or wells fed from streams in the same place, UPstream from any discharge points. In between is God’s Own Evaporative Purifier(tm), I think it does a pretty good job of leaving the birth-control chemicals behind.
Now, if this sounds like a better, healthier arrangement than where you live… please don’t all show up at once!
HEY!!! Enough with the stereotypes already! We programmers have a hard enough time as it is…
Path to Power
Baucus was born Dec. 11, 1941, in Helena, Mont., the fifth-generation heir to a Montana ranching fortune. His great-grandfather, Henry Sieben, started the 125,000-acre Sieben ranch, featured in the film A River Runs Through It, and Sieben is in the Cowboy Hall of Fame.
—
Sara:
Modern test:
“Is this the man I want to share custody of my kids every other weekend?”
Forget the source.
Not so long ago manhood was a kind of doom; an fate that you had to fulfill. There were certain things a man had to do and for those upon whom the fate fell you simply hoped to acquit yourself well when the time came.
You never knew what form the challenge would take. But on the day you would be certain that this was the one you could not walk away from. It was the Elephant and it came in many forms. You could be a saloon keeper yet understand that you had to face the Nazis to protect the woman you loved. Or you could be a second-rate painter who knew that he couldn’t walk away from true love — no matter what. And even when you had to miss an appointment on a windswept peak in Hong Kong, you had to be a man about it. All through the 40s and the 50s, when one would have expected things to be at their most knuckle-dragging, manliness was really all about facing up to life. That was what you did. There was no sense of specialness about it; only the awareness that in the varieties of light in the universe your candle had to burn in a certain sort of way.
Even the sixties couldn’t wholly banish the sense: at least not at once. In 1970 Graham Nash could still sing Right Between the Eyes on 4 Way Street.
“We have not missed, you and I, that many-splendored thing.” But to catch it, as that magic butterfly on the Peak you had to start from what you were. And for men, upon a time, there was no running away from that.
Yep. It is very likely that the birth-control pill is the culprit:
Birth Control Pills Affect Women’s Taste in Men
Well, men have bigger, longer penises because of wimmin too.
I guess we know who the weaker sex is.
An older 2003 BBC link regarding birth control pills:
Pill changes women’s taste in men
—-
Personally, I never experienced being on ‘the pill’ or messing with my hormones and I married a rugged, hairy, muscular Italian man who has a ‘sensitive’ side but acts ‘macho’ when around ‘the dudes’. I was just teasing him yesterday that he gets embarrassed about saying “I love you” over the phone when he’s with his employees. Pfft!
My husband and I were both sexually abused as children so we have a lot of our own personal ‘issues’ that helped us bond but also make for a very rocky relationship. The fact that we’ve been together 24 years and married for 23 is probably some kind of miracle really.
And, that’s my ender for the night er…cripes, it’s morning!
Several months ago there was an article that took a look at the progressing “Hot” choice of Movie stars that seemed to point out that women went from the hunk he mans from the begin of movies to about 1980 when from that time on the male “hot” movie stars began to become more feminized both in look and character, it was not long after that an article also correlated the use of birth control pills to the female desire for girly men, women on the pill wanted girly men characteristics while women who did not take the pill still wanted “he men” the interesting fact was when the women on the pill went off it took time for them to return to their normal state of wanting “he men” and it seemed the longer a women was on the pill the longer it to for the physical and mental restoration to occur, another shame about the “PILL” secret is how it increase breast cancer in women, if you ever wondered why more women are getting it it’s because the “PILL” has gotten stronger hormones which are increasing the chances and don’t forget the food we consume plays a large part in the cancer increase! But don’t expect to hear much on this, what woman wants to have her chooses narrowed by a little 15 to 20 percent chance of cancer or be saddled with a B@stard child? (of course with society now B@stard children are everywhere even with the PILL!) Mean while the health industry gets more donated private money and government grants to pursue a cure when a lot of the unnecessary cancers (deaths and breast mutilations) could easily have been avoided by those women…
I’ve been out of the looking game for quite a while, but when I was single, my focus was more on things like intelligence, integrity, shared sense of humor and shared values. I always wanted to know whether there was more beneath the facade. Looks were always secondary within some sort of medium range. I kind of liked the old-fashioned strong silent type who revealed himself rather slowly. My relationships ended because we found we were pursuing different paths, rather than by disillusionment in the person.
Charles White,
The correct term is ” Punished with a Baby “ and the remedy is abortion, or if the fetus survives, infanticide.
As it was spoken by our President,
let it be done.
Are those hormones also associated with uterine cancer?
A friend and neighbor in college was “treated” for some rather common problem in her reproductive organs with high doses of hormones.
Three years later, she was dead.
I asked a mutual friend who was a doctor about it.
He replied:
“She got screwed.“
“A youth boiling with hormones will wonder why he should not give full freedom to his sexual desires; and if he is unchecked by custom, morals, or laws, he may ruin his life before he matures sufficiently to understand that sex is a river of fire that must be banked and cooled by a hundred restraints if it is not to consume both the individual and the group.” — Will and Ariel Durant, “The Lessons of History”
The Christian radio program “Family Life Today” played a speech this week by Albert Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, in which he quoted the Durants. Mohler pointed out that every civilization, Christian and non-, has had restraints (rules) about sex and marriage. Every one. *What* the rules have been is where the difference lies … but, somehow, even the most primitive and/or appalling cultures have still recognized that you can’t have a civilization with “no rules” when it comes to sex.
It does appear that we (the modern West) are bucking to be the first to have it all — social order and sexual free-for-all. Of course there will be no first in this respect; we will either lose our civilization or see the rules reassert themselves when the descent into chaos becomes intolerable.
Dennis Prager has a good article, “Judaism’s Sexual Revolution: Why Judaism (and then Christianity) Rejected Homosexuality,” looking at the difference between Judaism and its early neighbors. Prager’s view is that the channeling of sexual energy (the male experience of which he has elsewhere described as “nuclear”) into monogamous heterosexual marriage was one of the key ingredients of the success of Western Judeo-Christian civilization.
He notes that the Bible uses its strongest term of condemnation (“abomination”) for homosexuality and, under Judaism, homosexuality was subject to the death penalty. That is how strongly and severely God wanted the Jews to separate, in both culture and mindset, from their neighbors in Canaan. The Canaanites drew the wrath of God for two practices that get specifically named:
Moreover, the Bible lists homosexuality together with child sacrifice among the “abominations” practiced by the peoples living in the land about to be conquered by the Jews.
When you stop to consider that America is two for two in the Canaanite abmominations department ….. the outlook is not good.
IMO it is all tied together. Our diseased & depraved political scene flows from our diseased & depraved culture, which itself flows from our diseased & depraved spiritual state. I know at least a couple of posters here have remarked that what the United States needs above all is another Awakening. If you believe that what ails us is fundamentally spiritual, then I would think that only a spiritual remedy would get to the root of the problem.
Palm Sunday, folks. If you are a believer, please take some time today to pray for America’s soul. Repeat tomorrow. And the day after that, and the day after that, etc.
Delia @ 73 and Charles @ 74:
The article that Delia links to contradicts what Charles recalls from, presumably, a different article.
The article at Delia’s link says that women on the pill prefer macho types, while women who are not on the pill prefer “more sensitive types without traditionally masculine features.”
Moreover, the article says that the researchers involved in the study “believe it may even be possible that taking the pill encourages women to have relationships with inappropriate men.”
I don’t know if this is explained hormonally due to what’s in the pill (I don’t know enough about the science to say, one way or the other), but the observed result is certainly psychologically plausible. Fear of getting pregnant has traditionally been one of THE great restraining factors on women’s sexual behavior. Therefore, women living under that restraint would be extremely selective with regard to having sex — with whom, how frequently, and under what circumstances (i.e. marriage). Remove the fear of pregnancy and that huge psychological restraint goes out the window. (STD rates, on the other hand, have skyrocketed, but, ehhh, “the clap” and its malicious little cousins are less publicly visible than a forty-week belly …)
But the introduction of the possibility that not just contemporary female sexual behavior but also women’s sexual preferences themselves might be influenced or even driven by changes wrought by the pill, is a complicating factor in the argument about what women prefer (esp. when expressed as, “what they prefer now is what they have always preferred”). If the last 45 years are an aberration, then it would behoove us to know this, yes?
P.S. My sister the cop has always said that one of her biggest criteria for looks in men is: He can’t be prettier than I am.
Incidentally this same sister, 5’6″ and 130 lbs, single-handedly took down and cuffed a teenage punk who had just slashed her face as part of a gang initiation stunt, when she was in just her second year on the force. She just passed 15 years of service. Needless to say we are all proud of her.
Mad Fiddler
I have personally conducted an unofficial survey on the attractiveness of SEALs to the opposite sex. I’ve noticed it swings with the political tides. These days it is high. During the depths of Vietnam it was low, but never low, low. In the movie, “the Ugly Truth” Gerald Butler states women look at resumes. I tend to agree and SEALs, as do many others, have resumes indicating a record of achievement in trying situations. When SEALs hit their sixties the ladies really come out with a vengeance (again this is only anecdotal). They assume fitness equates with longevity.
That being said, in training you can’t tell who will survive. I can say the guys who come in looking like Arnold Scwartzenegger will not complete SEALtraining. The Hollywood SEAL and the real SEAL don’t match. The Steroid studs are carrying too much ornamental muscle. The concept of what a manly man looks like does not match what manly men need to look like. To further muddy the waters, SEAL men once they are established start attempting to look like what they think the girls expect and start pumping up. (As an aside, I have a photo on my wall of Jim Janos aka Jesse Ventura and at no time when he was on active duty did he look as buffed and ripped as he did when he became a professional wrestler. Better living through chemistry I suspect.) I can specifically remember the CO of SEAL Team Two prohibiting his troops from weightlifting in the mid-80′s.
Whiskey
There were hard pioneer women and women are very capable of getting rough and tough…Annie Oakley, The Unsinkable Molly Brown, Calamity Janes. and all the women who served with Tito’s partisans in Yugoslavia.
One of my aunts is a Maine guide and the other was a national whitewater canoeist. The latter’s daughter held and may still hold the State’s shotput record. I race outrigger canoes. Recently I come across several women who are willing to take risks that I won’t and I have been known to take risks that make SEALs pale.
Others
The vision of the ideal mate does change, at least the vision of women by men has changed. When it was important for men to produce offspring successfully to create a family (and his own private social security system) buxom, sturdy women with hips was the fashion. No good having a wife who’d die in childbirth. Bustles and bell-shaped dresses signal fertility.
By the 20th Century, the health system was strong and women didn’t need to drop as many children and the risks diminished. Also with more discretionary time men looked on women as more life partners to enjoy life with. Hugh Hefner may have coined the term “playmate,” but the concept was obvious with the slip boyish “flappers.” Many of the women we see idealized today are flappers who’s appearance of fitness implies longevity and further implies the ability to do boyish things along with their mates.
If the ideal vision of the male has changed somewhat it is because raw physical strength is no longer as physical endurance. What do you do after you’ve successfully had a few children? You want to be able to “play” through the rest of your life.
Got some heavy hitters lined up against you, Bogie!
Actress Charlize Theron told the ladies of The View yesterday that (like Brad Pitt and Mehcad Brooks), she won’t get married until gay people can get married.
Said Theron:
“I don’t want to get married because right now the institution of marriage feels very one-sided, and I want to live in a country where we all have equal rights…I have so many friends who are gay and lesbian and would so badly want to get married, and I wouldn’t be able to sleep with myself.”
Gorgeous inside and out.
Watch it,
AFTER THE JUMP…
—
…she wouldn’t be able to sleep with herself?
One might think, if she were married, she wouldn’t have to!
Two not being the loneliest number.
Without denying the importance of the many other factors that have been mentioned, my thoughts turned toward evolutionary fitness. Let us suppose that one thing (not the only thing) that women want is wealth and power for themselves and their children and grandchildren. In general, the more advanced the society the longer will be the life-spans and her own time horizon. The genes that enable a man to survive for forty years and prosper in a more primitive society may not be the same genes that enable a man to survive for eighty years and prosper in a more advanced society. A longer life gives more time for accumulating wealth and power. Therefore, it would make sense for a woman in a more advanced society to choose on the basis of what would predict a longer life in a man. A simple example: the genes that enable quick clotting and survival after a wound in battle or a hunt will also increase the vulnerability to myocardial infarcts later in life. There is likely a correlation between those genes and other genes, such as for testosterone levels, for the ‘masculine’ look. This could be one factor in a woman’s choice, a factor operating largely unconsciously.
Best wishes for a long life,
Jim
I think that a large part of the “all women are gold diggers” attitude comes from the way men are handled in family court.EVERY man in america has a friend whose wife got a boyfriend and proceded to take his kids,his house, his future earnings. No matter how wonderful a woman is, at any time she can send Gloria Allred after you and take all your stuff.
I was just reading an article recently that would seem to explain this. Women in developed countries have access to birth control pills:
Recent studies have found that women who take birth control pills are more attracted to feminine men than masculine men. One study showed that women are more attracted to a masculine man when they are ovulating and more attracted to a feminine man when they are not ovulating. Since the birth control pill keeps a woman from ovulating it makes sense that women on the pill would find themselves more attracted to feminine looking men.
Take a picture of a guy who is fit and tanned and the same guy who is pale. In a peasant society the woman will think the tanned version is a field hand, while the pale guy spends his day back in the house counting the money. So perhaps socialized medicine is a proxy for who controls the resources. Is it the “new aristocrats” — the academic “certification hounds” — or the socially mobile entrepreneurs?
Ostriches lay their eggs in a group nest. The dominant female gets to lay her egg in the center of the nest, and the subordinate females lay their eggs on the outside edge. That way when a predator comes along it will eat the egg of lower status females.
About a dozen years ago I read in the Science section of The Economist about a newly studied and cataloged tribe in the Amazon rain forest. In this tribe women had multiple sex partners so no man was sure if he was the father. And this was a good thing (the journalist made it sound like the “preferred method”) because it meant that a number of men would be looking out for the welfare of the children — actually, some of the children of some of the women.
Why was it a good to have a number of doubting fathers instead of one sure thing? You see, the leading cause of death among children was “violence from their fellows” — in other words, homicide — so it’s good to have a protector convenient (the “maybe this is my child” male) who might say leave the kid alone.
Oh-kay. Let’s see. Where disease, snakes, insects, or an infected cut all take a large harvest, murder is the leading cause of death? And therefore illegitamcy is good because it assures that some kids are murdered and others survive? Allow me to say, huh?
Is it possible that Feminism is not about the rights of women — but about whose eggs end up on the outside ring of the nest? And what about all those women whose kids end up in the outside ring? Is journalism about cluing them in — or cluing them out?
Some random thoughts:
I wish I had a dollar for every article I have seen on ‘what women want’. I would be rich. Lots of good and thoughtful comments here at BC but no one can ever find the Holy Grail. It eludes us. Perhaps there isn’t one?
My thinking is that men are hard wired to protect and provide for women.
I agree with the comment that, at least in the West, women are the sexual gatekeepers.
I also find it interesting that in the West, as men have ceded political and economic power to women, the West has gone into decline.
My two cents worth.
Q: “What do women want?”
A: “The same things men do. Only in prettier colors.”
… from an old episode of “Northern Exposure”
Does the study compare the selection by country with the norm for that country?
Perhaps, people are simply selecting the facial type they are familiar with?
Bogie Wheel, your cultural synopsis is deep, buddy. Without a higher purpose to give ourselves to than rutting, pop culture and heartless materialism, our culture is in free-fall and so is the family.
My wife and I have been married going on 29 years. We met in church in 1980 when we were new Christian converts; her from moral chaos and New Age hokum, me from drug and alcohol addiction. We’ve done well at marriage and parenting by the grace of God even though we’ve lived on carpenter’s wages in marginal neighborhoods. She said if I died, she’d stay single rather than have to train another guy. I’d probably do the same. I’d never find another babe like her anyways.
There is nothing new under the sun. The plague of the girly-man has been with us for some time. Read Walt Whitman’s Democratic Vistas, written in 1871, surely a manlier time in America. Yet hear how he laments the civilization.
We question, we ask, Are there, indeed, men here worthy the name? Are there athletes? Are there perfect women, to match the generous material luxuriance? Is there a pervading atmosphere of beautiful manners? Are there crops of fine youths, and majestic old persons? Are there arts worthy freedom and a rich people? Is there a great moral and religious civilization — the only justification of a great material one? Confess that to severe eyes, using the moral microscope upon humanity, a sort of dry and flat Sahara appears, these cities, crowded with petty grotesques, malformations, phantoms, playing meaningless antics. Confess that everywhere, in shop, street, church, theatre, bar-room, official chair, are pervading flippancy and vulgarity, low cunning, infidelity — everywhere the youth puny, impudent, foppish, prematurely ripe — everywhere an abnormal libidinousness, unhealthy forms, male, female, painted, padded, dyed, chignon’d, muddy complexions, bad blood, the capacity for good motherhood deceasing or deceas’d, shallow notions of beauty, with a range of manners, or rather lack of manners, (considering the advantages enjoy’d,) probably the meanest to be seen in the world.
Then again, that diatribe was inspired by a view of New York City and Brooklyn (two cities at that time), so perhaps urban centers are ever thus.
In the HBO Miniseries “John Adams,” Mr. Adams finds himself “at court” in 18th century France. Sitting around a long, long table to dine, he is amazed by what can only describe as an assorted collection of freaks. All the men dressed as women and each with equal amounts rouge and white powder on their visage, all engaged in the most inane titterings about God knows what, all the while folk outside the castle “eating cake” were getting a bit tired of the drill.
Adam’s hosts looked like a lot of folk completely out of touch with reality…and…like a group just waiting to have their collective asses kicked by those significantly more masculine Neanderthals in the street on whose backs the country was being run.
Let me get this straight. In this brave, new world, women like girly men and men like women who look like 13 year old boys. Okey-Dokey.
Only a scientist stupid enough to believe in AGW could come up with this. I’ll put my money on biology, thanks.
For an interesting take on that other modern male phenom, the child-man, you can check this article.
http://www.city-journal.org/2008/18_1_single_young_men.html
Child-men are not girlie-men. In fact, they are something of their opposite, it seems. Yet they, too, are not mature adults. So it seems the playing field is broken into girlie-men, child-men, and manly-men. And then, I guess, regular schnooks like me that don’t fit into any of those categories, but rather drift somewhere in the middle of them all, like the center of a venn diagram.
hdgreeen @ 84,
I think you gave the explanation for the results of the study in question: it’s all about who controls the resources in the particular culture. About 1970, two acquaintances of mine visited Haiti. One was a slim 6’4″ with chiseled features. The other was a rotund 5’6″ and greasy-looking. In the States, the Greek God got all the chicks, but in Haiti fat guy was the chick magnet. Caloric intake as a marker of fitness.
“the whole country is going to turn into one big open running sore”
It already has, I promise you, I work in a pharmacy!
All these young girls, you know, the ones married to the government as well as the ones that are just engaged (pregnant), they just can’t figure out how to have their cake and eat it too.
The “gangsta” boyfriends never show up for the dinner at their girlfriend’s parent’s house, and the pregnant girlfriend can’t figure out why, but it’s usually because he’s pounding their best friend, or smoking rock with his buddies.
He-Men will make their comeback, they always do, right after it all burns!
Sarah ‘I’m a woman who can barely stomach the company of other women. I always feel like an alien when I listen to them blather on.’
Glad to see I’m not the only one. With some women it’s the constant complaining and belittling remarks said in the same breath as ‘but I love him anyway’ that makes me sick. Not to mention the lack of intelligent conversation that is outside of husband and kids. With other women it’s the feminazi attitude. Women started out just wanted equality but it quickly turned into a superiority contest and a contest against other women in which there is a lot of backstabbing. It is interesting that I can’t name very many woman, outside of my family, who influenced me when I was growing up but I can name quite a few men.
This ‘feminized men’ thing I think is really about self esteem. I find that most people, men and women, use those that they perceive as weaker to make themselves feel superior.
Wretchard says:
don’t think it means a pallid, thin-chested programmer with Jolt Cola stains on his teeth and monitor-burn on his face.
I think you might be surprised at how many programmers are/were power lifters.
hdgreene,
In a peasant society the woman will think the tanned version is a field hand
This is an excellent point that probably goes in cycles. The important thing for the rich is to not appear poor. For most of history only the very rich ate well but the diet, workplace and exercise performed by the masses varied over time. The anecdote of ridgerunner confirms this.
When the peasants are tanned and muscular the then aristocrats concentrated on indoor pleasures and doused themselves in scent. In France the monarch actively encouraged such corruption to weaken vitality of the First Estate, “Ancient Oaks rotted by time.” There were real dangers in the elites adopting such a posture and hard reality pressured them to remain more vigorous and capable or suffer consequences. Think of the real life Playwright General Gentleman Johnny Burgoyne bringing his wine cellar with him on campaign or the fictional fops of the Scarlet Pimpernel. RCM makes the same point.
Later the commoners moved into dark satanic mills and grew pale while their lords ostentatiously played polo and sunned themselves in Monaco or more exotic locations. Memoirs have remarked on how in WW-I the British troops appeared pale and scrawny compared to their robust officers. This applied even to the Welsh coal miners who followed the sons of the English gentry into the machine gun fire of the Somme.
After WW-II cheap airfare, cheap protein, and gymnasiums gave every working stiff the ability to travel to the same places as and sculpt bodies that looked like those of their betters. In response the elites retreated into advocacy for vegan diets (an ostentatious affectation) and a sterile aestheticism. The motivation is always in the capacity of the majority and not the pretensions of their ostensible leaders.
To be blogged under the title “Fashion’s Moving Target.”
Once again, this morning, I turned off the last Sunday morning show I’ve been watching for decades, ABC News. Jake Tapper did a decent job interviewing, but the tenor of the discussion, most especially the rabid idiot Paul Krugman, are simply not worth more than a few minutes of Sunday morning quiet. Was interesting to see Valerie Jarrett for a few minutes, not enough time to get much of a read on her. I think she’s what Obama wants to be when he grows up, talk about your girlie-men.
ridgerunner, In cultures where there is a lot of poverty, caloric intake is not a perception of fitness. Many years ago when I lived in Afghanistan, an Afghan man, on seeing a very fat woman, said to me and my mom that her husband must be a very RICH man. He was in awe that anyone could be so rich that he could afford to feed his wife so well. In Haiti, women perceived your rotund friend as the one who had more resources.
I would ad that since our rurality isn’t the main component of our society, (in France, paysants, fishermen,and their employees : 1 million of persons) only represent about 4% now, the surviving and moral behaviour became inadequate in cities, where anonymity allows a lesser “primitive” behaviour, you can have many affairs of which your neighbours know nothing and or don’t care of. Surviving in cities implies tricks and sophistication, where words and promises haven’t the same importance and or sense as in countrysides, as the horizon is confined, sexuality becomes an obsession with the many opportunities, or you have to develop imagination to get a life, and or to have many “lives” with the different people you meet as they would only know one part of your personality, at home, in the quater, at work, at leasures places… like in zoos for apes, deviant and predator sexuality is more likely to develop, you rarely find open homosexuality, or licenciousety, and sado-maso behaviour within the peasantry is considered as abnormal.
Our urban society forged and venerates its own heros models for surviving in such a middle, the super man (mostly dreamed) and the easy going “well bred” metro-sexual.
The decline of our rural society also allowed “socialism” to develop thus to legislate political correctness as a communication metro sexual means for surviving.
I’m afraid, that we’ll have to compose with this reality for quite a while, unless a Revolution happened, that would send city populations back into countrysides, that the big farms or hudge landownerships would be divided again !
Interesting conversation I had with my OB-GYN regarding ED drugs. Because of fat gain most men at 60 will have more estrogen floating through their system than most women past the age of 50. ED could much more easily or effectively be solved by exercise and weight loss as the fat just stores estrogen and diminishes testosterone.
So I don’t know that the problem is so much the result of birth control pill residue in our water system as our sedentary and overfed lifestyle.
My 19 year old daughter and I looked at the photos in the WSJ article and the masculine face just jumps out. But then again, on many occasions, as we watch old movies we have come to the conclusion men’s jawlines are not what they used to be and for some reason that is a marker for both of us.
OT,
“The Tocqueville Times” available by clicking the zoom button in the Tocque panel contains links relating to calls for a Constitutional Convention. My message to the Lt Governor of South Carolina is on my blog. Our genial host has said that he encourages referencing exterior blogging, otherwise called “blog pimping,” in here.
The TT feature is nice but why was the prior ability to rank comment displays by reader evaluation or poster reputation removed? A method to flag Spam, as opposed to just block idiots, and send comments for administrator review, is needed. Also a decent search feature for retrieving something from the archives would help. While we are at it, how about a free lunch?
All women are exactly alike inside. God just put a different face on ‘em so you can tell them apart…
Sara, I still don’t know you, but I still love you. You are on the right track with being happy in your own skin.
Really the only issue we as a culture are dealing with is the fact that being and idiot, slut, ne’r do well, socialist, do gooder, politician, miscreant, etc… has no down side. As in it used to shorten your lifespan immensely to be one of the less moral, honorable, virtuous people. I think we need to get back to the day when those parameters were in vogue.
Peter, you are one of the manly-men. Otherwise you wouldn’t have survived junior high with a name such as yours…
By the by, I am happily married most of the time for going on 26 years to the most wonderful angel to have ever graced my sight. She feeds me, washes my clothes and all of the other mundane tasks that make up the human existence.
And! she plays with my hair until I go to sleep. Who could want for more?!
LOTM #97
“In response the elites retreated into advocacy for vegan diets (an ostentatious affectation) and a sterile aestheticism.”
You said a mouthful, LOTM.
Is there anything more ironic than a pretentious vegetarian spouting about multiculturalism while the very cultures he purports to extol would view his affectation of vegetarianism as a form of snobby madness?
Western vegetarianism is a conceit, a thing which can be afforded by wealthy dilettantes.
There’s a big difference between Gary Cooper and John Wayne.
Gary Cooper represented a man. I wish he had kept his childhood name of Frank or his middle name James, but he took the advice of his casting director to change his name to Gary. At least Gary Cooper didn’t give up his last name.
John Wayne seems more like a boy’s fantasy. His real name was Marion Morrison. He may have been puffed up as a hero in the films, but in actuality he was a draft dodger.
They represent two very different visions of manliness.
The metrosexual? He’s always been there. The raccoon coat was a major concern for college boys in the 1920’s, and dressing right was a big deal in universities for decades before then. It’s nothing new. And class resentment against the vanity of the rich has been a staple for millennia.
Mary Claude-
Your post is dead on.
My father used to say of cities………
“Put two rats in a cage and they make love. Put twenty rates in the same cage and they tear each other apart.”
FWIW
JFSanders031 #103
One of the great holy grails of feminism, and not a few men, has been the concept of sex whenever and however with zero chance of negative consequences. What they never figured on was the possibility that even if you could remove the physical negatives, there might be psychological and community problems anyhow.
Absent the social norming of something like authentic Christianity or Judaism, if there’s no possible downside to a bad behavior like promiscuous unprotected sex, people will continue to do it.
It’s an adjunct explanation, along with Whiskey’s theory on the politics of the badly behaving single urbanites, for the fact that 80% of single women vote Dem. The Dems promote abortion and welfare, two ways to eliminate or mitigate the negative consequences of promiscuous anonymous sex. Single women without a moral code will therefore gravitate to the Dems.
Whiskey,
For example, the first Dark Ages came when the Bronze Age Empires: the Egyptians, Mycenaeans, Cretans, Hittites, Assyrians, and Babylonians using bronze weapons and chariots were overthrown by the Sea Peoples around 1100 BC — and only the Egyptians by retreating far up the Nile, survived. The Sea Peoples used iron swords and spears, seem to have sacked and destroyed every city around, rather than simply conquering them and using them as wealth generators.
Yea, VHD may have said that. But there are a few things wrong with it. The chronology is wrong. I could write a whole paper on it…. but won’t. The period started in 1500′s BC.
Second, it was caused by external factors, not by Sea People (SP) wielding iron swords. You ever wondered why it was called “dark age”? Yes, the term actually comes from that time, along with other term, “the sky is falling”.
If you read Ipuwer papyrus that comes from that time, you’d see how improbable it is that SP uprooted the stone built cities by hacking with their swords. BTW, the iron swords were first made possible by a sudden availability of meteoric iron. Only later it was discovered that the red ochre is the ore that one can get the iron from.
Also, the SP were, in some cases not Sea People but Sand People. When the Israelites were pouring out of Egypt, another group was pouring in from the opposite direction. They briefly clashed together. These folks were known as Hyksos based on later Greek sources, but a few centuries later after Exodus Hebrews called them Amalek (=kings, and there was a good reason for that, they were pharaohs of the previous period until Solomon’s time when Hebrews helped the restoration of true Egyptian dynasty and expulsion of Hyksos–which did them not much good two generations later when Egyptians attacked Juda and sacked Jerusalem, including hauling off the riches from the Temple).
Hyksos/Amalek did not encounter much of a resistance in Egypt, it was as devastated as any other place. A lot of tribes were searching for a new home at the time, because they thought some other place may be better off than the place they formerly called home.
The Sea People, Phoenicians for the most part, did some raids, of course. As for the introduction of smelted iron, Hatti were decidedly the first using it as a base metal for their weaponry, but that was at the end of the “dark age”, approx. 1100 BC. The iron age was coming in slowly. For instance, the Greeks fought Persians still with bronze weapons during Persian Wars. There was another, shorter, “dark age” at about 750 BC, the time of Trojan War.
So the dark age was not the result of social arrangement or the use of iron, but rather the opposite, the social changes and the use of iron was a result of dark age.
I’m with bogie wheel on this one. Our degraded morality is symptomatic of our degraded spirituality. I was shocked when more than half of my seniors tried to make the case that atheism, hedonism, and amorality are modern virtues. Where did they get the idea? My students come from households where “partnering” creates a constantly shifting pattern of surrogate parents: mom’s first ex-husband, mom’s second ex-husband, mom’s new live-in boyfriend, dad’s first wife, dad’s new fiancee and a brood of competing half-siblings. Our country cannot survive for much longer without a restoration of Judeo-Christian norms.
Re Marie Claude #100
I think your observation about the decline of rural population and it’s influence on society is an excellent one. I had not considered that, perhaps because I live in the middle of no where.
Different classes and cultures have had different concepts of manliness. They always have and they always will. Men conform to whatever women want. What women regard as sexy depends on what they want. When the rape rate is low, they want a man who is as manly as she can feel comfortable with. When the rape rate is high, they want a man with good manners.
The quality of the health care system may not be the determining factor. It is probably irrelevant. The presence of Muslim men very well might be the determining factor. Do Argentina, Sweden, Russia, Australia, and the United States have large expatriate communities of Muslims? Imagine if the rape rate rises and falls in proportion to the presence of Muslim men from the Middle East. In the Middle East, rape is seen as a man’s prerogative, a woman’s fault, and a source of dishonor to a woman’s father, brother, or husband for failing to protect her against such an attack.
In any environment with a high rape rate, “manly” features become a joke. The higher the rape rate, the more likely women will be to think more of their own safety from the man she dates than to consider whether he will defend her against outside attackers. In contrast, a low rape rate means she is more willing to trust “manly men” to defend her against abuse. After all, he and his kind have already defended her from rape.
So here’s the irony. The lower the rape rate, the greater the female admiration for “manliness” because she knows she can trust it. The higher the rape rate, the lower the female admiration for “manliness” because she tries to avoid men who will brutalize her.
This model predicts the existence of the kind of women Whiskey continues to complain about. Yet, it also predicts that their rejection of him is almost entirely his own fault.
Oh, Whiskey. Stop making excuses for yourself. Try courting lesbians. Many women who try to convince themselves they are lesbian discover they really aren’t. I think some of them would go for a man like you. If lesbianism is a disease, you might be the cure.
Why doesn’t this study surprise me?
Alexis comments:
John Wayne seems more like a boy’s fantasy. His real name was Marion Morrison. He may have been puffed up as a hero in the films, but in actuality he was a draft dodger.
I don’t think he was a draft dodger. He was 34 or 35 at the time of Pearl Harbor (plus he had kids). Although the draft age went higher (36, I think), the draft “invited” 18-24 year olds. Unless he had a certain skill needed by the military, it is doubtful they would have wanted him even if he wanted to sign up.
My father was a vet, a bit younger than Marion, whose employer blocked him when he tried to re-up. They did not have to take you.
This entire subject is otiose. Since Darwinian evolution is false to begin with, any theory of male/female attractiveness based on “evolutionary psychology” is mere fiction. Evolutionary psychology does not explain anything, still less modern sexual tastes. Our modern sexual tastes explain our penchant for believing in evolutionary psychology.
hdgreene:
Okay, I’ll admit it. I relied upon Marion Morrison’s Wikipedia entry. Although he didn’t dodge the draft in a legal sense, I do think he should be considered a draft dodger in a moral sense.
World War II had a large amount of draft dodging. It was legal, but that didn’t keep it from being real. In some rural areas, it was the rare man who served at all. We keep on hearing about the “Greatest Generation”. Some were great and died. Some were great and lived. Others weren’t so great.
Many people who technically served in the military during the Vietnam War regard themselves as draft dodgers, and rightly so. For example, would-be music teachers enlisted in marching bands. Men with technical skills enlisted as mechanics. And so forth and so on…
So, when I use the term “draft dodger”, I am not using it as a legal term but rather as a moral term. A draft is essentially a “call to arms” for amateurs to join the military rather than leaving all the fighting to the professionals. Marion Morrison’s work for military recruitment was essentially, “Do as I say, don’t do as I do.”
When movie stars enlist in the military, they set an example.
When other movie stars take the side of the terrorists, they also set an example.
The current concept that there are no downsides to an irresponsible sexual behavior (by that I don’t mean just intercourse, I mean the broader context, roles and society and where it is all heading) is a misconception. The fact is that the consequences are on a borrowed time and the bill will come due.
Matt Beck, there is an evolution, just not the Darwinian one–which is an uniformitarian illusion. The survival of the fittest is a circular and post hoc concept.
I love it. Nothing brings it out like the great divide. But are we really discussing what women want? Are we talking about what makes a man? (Great update on that Wretchard.)
Maybe all that matters is what it takes to be a good man. As far as what a woman wants… So long as that one over there wants me, WHO CARES!?
Is there anything more ironic than a pretentious vegetarian spouting about multiculturalism…
Yes. The white box aesthetic of architectural minimalism.
(In reality, I like some of the structural line work in modern design, but, as with all forms of visual aesthetics, some are better than others. Modern architecture as an expression of a national vision is another potential “tell” especially if one looks at the USA relative to just about any other western country.)
As we wander off topic into the sunset strumming a guitar, I may forgive him for draft-dodging but not for serving as a role model for so many dead Marine 2nd lieutenants.
Wayne always played a leader as the guy who could out-fight, out-shoot, out-drink, out-endure, out-maneuver out-everything, his men.
This is a stupid and impossible role model for a young military leader. An ensign or second lientenant is given a commission because he shows reasonable potential and a reasonable record of achievement for a young man of his age. Generally a newly commissioned officer has set the goal of completing college and taking military training and actually completed it by age 22 or 23. He general competency has been reviewed by senior naval or military officer. It is just a rough stardard of competency (and it fails from time to time, see Hassan, Major).
Every new leader must realize he’s probably leading a group of men in which group there are men who can out-fight, out-shoot, out-drink, out-endure, out-maneuver, out-everything him, and he must figure out how to harness those talents rather than compete with them.
John Wayne’s movie persona killed many (not a few) good men whose first efforts were consumed in competing rather than harnessing.
Now, getting back to the topic, isn’t “Marion” a girly-man name?
it’s amazing what passes for science these day.
Move to Indiana. The good ol’ boy’s network is alive and well. Women get nothing and are even lucky if they get a 50/50 spit of assets.
I accompanied a woman to court and was appalled. She had been married 47 years, raised 6 children then took care of both her husband’s mother, who had Alzheimer’s and later his father, who was crippled up with arthritis and other ailments.
One day her husband informed her that he wanted a divorce and that he had filed. 60 days later, the divorce was final. Her attorney tried to get her some kind of settlement. She had always been a stay-at-home wife. The judge was brutal. Told her that she should have planned better and the fact that she had never worked outside the home was not his problem or the law’s if she chose to be a breeder and not a producer. I gagged. She lost her health insurance because she was covered under her husband’s policy from work. She lost her home because it was ordered sold and she had no independent money to buy out her husband. She got no support/alimony at all as all their children were over 18. They were not a wealthy couple and the little she got out of the split of the assets was just about enough to pay her attorney fees. At 68, she was left homeless and penniless and with almost zero prospects of providing for herself. There are not alot of jobs out there for 68 year old women with no previous work experience outside the home.
Unlike California, that has a sliding scale that goes up the longer the marriage, Indiana does not care if you were married 1 day or 50 years, the wife gets nothing. If there are minor children, then she might get child support.
Now out here in California, I knew several women who ended up having to pay alimony to their loser husbands. They were the working partner or had the higher salary.
I can say that I despise the feminist movement. Look what their stupid idea of equality has wrought. It gives men an excuse not to be men and who wanted to lower her status to be equal with men anyway?
My Mother was a highly successful career woman and my Dad was one of her biggest supporters in whatever she set out to accomplish, but he never abrogated his own responsibility to be the caretaker and protector of his family. Her income meant they could have more luxuries in life, but my Dad was still the provider of the necessities. In today’s world, guys are doing credit checks and evaluating their prospective spouse’s earning ability. They expect women to contribute their fair share and still do all the child rearing and domestic chores. When the women are all used up, they move on without guilt and like that judge, figure she should have planned better. For every man who fits the description given in the quote at the top, I can name 20 women who are struggling just to keep food on the table for herself and her kids because the man decided to trade her in for a new model and never look back.
There were Iraqi vets who protested the Hurt Locker as being totally unrealistic. Reminded me that John Wayne’s portrayal of WWII soldier’s in the pacific was panned as unrealistic as well by soldiers in that theatre .
“Maybe the real explanation for the apparent preference for androgyny is a desire not to fall in love with someone else, but to fall in love with ourselves. In that case feminism is neither the liberation of the feminine in the man nor the masculine in the woman, but the denial of both. Not love, but vanity is blind.”
It seems that these studies are done with only white people in mind. John Wayne, Clint Eastwood as examples of the masculine men? Where do you put Martin Luther King Jr? Jackie Robinson? The young Ali? Richard seems to consider at some point that there is an alternative to the white masculine men, but he terms them as the negative felon-baby producers who mess up society (seemingly). I think white women who truly have had excellent health care in their lives- meaning they haven’t had abortions, they haven’t been on BC since they were of an age of consents, and they haven’t taken all kinds of ‘crazy pills for their craziness- i.e. their systems aren’t toxic- seek out 1) men of 2) excellent physical health.
We have to remember that in America especially blacks were bred only 3 or so generations ago to be ‘perfect specimens’ so they’d be ‘perfect products.’ in today’s world it’s the sick white girls who either want or reject the metrosexuals and have no or few he-men to even be interested in. their sicknesses are evident by the health care they use in their lives- oh let’s not forget all the plastic surgery they have.
healthy women of any ethnicity want healthy babies and won’t be attracted to or attractive to the duds. it’s the studs that really keep everything going, and we can’t blame them for it.
“93. ridgerunner:
hdgreeen @ 84,
I think you gave the explanation for the results of the study in question: it’s all about who controls the resources in the particular culture. About 1970, two acquaintances of mine visited Haiti. One was a slim 6′4″ with chiseled features. The other was a rotund 5′6″ and greasy-looking. In the States, the Greek God got all the chicks, but in Haiti fat guy was the chick magnet. Caloric intake as a marker of fitness.”
I believe you see a similar dynamic at work in the various South Pacific Islander people groups. The big round guy = successful hunter = successful provider = chick magnet….. in a hula sorta way
Over the years I’ve had a number of rotund female friends (some of the most fun folks I’ve ever known, btw)- I long ago lost count of the number of times I heard the following lament: “Why don’t guys ask me out? Am I not a nice person? Am I not fun to be with?”
The answers to Questions 2 and 3 were invariably “yes”….. Now, as to Question 1, well…. how many of them REALLY wanted the truth?
For years I held my tongue, feeling a bit like a pig since I knew at the very core of my being that if I was to ever marry, no way would my wife-to-be be drawn from the ranks of the ample. It wasn’t until I got older that I began to ask why: “Why did I, and apparently a majority of normal men where I grew up in the US, prefer to date (and presumably eventually marry) women who weren’t overweight?”
Growing up in late 20th century America, even a significant percentage of the poorest among us are fat (Don’t believe me? Hang out at the local grocery and watch the size of the people who are “buying” their food with your tax dollars. WOW.) The abundance of easy calories means that, unless one spends some of that available leisure time burning off those calories, you’re on a one-way trip to rotundity. Even allowing for the fact that there are folks who have health issues that make weight management nearly impossible, it seems that the excess pounds generally come from poor dietary choices in combination with sedentary lifestyles.
And like it or not, there’s just something that’s fundamentally romantically and sexually unappealing about those excess pounds. Perhaps I equate overweight with laziness? And laziness is something that we generally seek to avoid in any sort of binding partnership, especially one where rearing successful offspring is involved?
It’s not that I had to have a piece of eye candy on my arm to show off, as I couldn’t have cared less what my buddies thought of my gal (what mattered is what I thought of her).
I don’t know. But like it or not, the notion of becoming physically intimate with those heavy female friends of mine was as deadly to my libido as a bucket of water would be to a burning match. No use in apologizing for it. It is what it is.
I’m guessing there’s something hard-wired at work.
“121. Sara (Pal2Pal)
Move to Indiana. The good ol’ boy’s network is alive and well. Women get nothing and are even lucky if they get a 50/50 spit of assets.”
It’s going strong in Georgia as well.
I’ve got a long-time female friend who decided, after 15 dreadful years, to seek a divorce. The last straw was her husband’s refusal to stop bathing with their three daughters as the oldest one passed her 8th birthday.
Want to guess who got full custody? Want to guess who’s paying child support? (It wound up being his word against hers, etc… the girls didn’t testify.)
I’ve spent the last two-plus years trying to help my friend cope with this nightmare and, hopefully, eventually recover her girls.
Well, about two years in, this man (who we rightly judged to be a pedophile that had yet to offend) climbed into bed with his now ten y.o. daughter and stuck his hand in her crotch.
Want to guess the current arrangement?
My friend has full custody of the oldest girl, and 50/50 split with the two younger girls. Child support payments are reversed.
It’s better, but that b@stard still has two little girls with him, and I have to believe it’s just a matter of time.
(Makes you want to go all Charlton Heston in Planet of the Apes: “It’s a madhouse!”)
God help us.
There are plenty of what they call “chubby chasers” out there for your friend. And there are also plenty of men who are perfectly happy to have overweight wives since the extra weight is like a modern day chastity belt.
Women struggle to keep their weight at normal levels and it isn’t all that easy when you gain weight with every baby that never seems to come off again. Men, OTOH, seem to figure that once they snag the girl, they can let themselves go. They’ll demand that their women look like the latest teen model and criticize her for being a size 14 instead of the size two that society is telling us these days is the ideal. Did it ever occur to you that maybe women don’t like some slobbering beer gut on top of them at will.
It was a long read which I could not stop. Great comments.
A wise man once told me this truth……….. “The hole is mightier than the pole”.
Salaaaaaaam eleikum Y’all!!
Triton #124
“And like it or not, there’s just something that’s fundamentally romantically and sexually unappealing about those excess pounds. Perhaps I equate overweight with laziness? And laziness is something that we generally seek to avoid in any sort of binding partnership, especially one where rearing successful offspring is involved?”
You get part of it.
I’ve had many a lass Thin and thick ask me over the years why most men don’t find really rotund women attractive. It isn’t shame, or fear of what your buddies say. To those who I thought wanted an honest answer, I would bring up the laziness thing (as you pointed out) but I would also relate another more serious defect: lack of self-control.
Yes, I know, genetics. Yes, I know, some people have hormonal imbalances. Those are interesting outliers but statistically unimportant. If a woman (or a man, for that matter) cannot put the damn fork down, to what else in their life will they be unable to apply self-control?
That much lack of self-discipline, up to and including the point where what you are doing endangers your health, will never be attractive.
121. Sara (Pal2Pal),
Sad. I think there are a lot more Betty Broderick type stories (sans the murderin’ part) out there that have caused women to reassess their choices in men and life. Betty ‘bred’ her husband’s children, worked to help put him through law school and once he was successful he left her for a younger woman and with his ‘lawyer knowhow’ took everything away from Betty including her sanity.
The thing is, we are all INDIVIDUALS. There are some really selfish, sleazy, creepy men out there and some equally sleazy, selfish creepy women out there. Being led by our instincts may not always be in our best interests as human beings but we iz what we iz.
How does one learn to discern what they NEED over what they WANT? It’s complicated? Does love really fade? How can one genuinely love and then fall out of that genuine love? Or is that ‘love’ really ‘instinct’ that wears off? Once the attraction or hormone reactions are no longer spiking like crazy, people have to look at one another as more than just sexual partners but as real companions and mates in the real sense of the word. Some people have to mature to that level. Men lose some of their testosterone and become a bit less ‘macho’ as they age, women lose some of their progesterone and become less ‘feminine’ and in some ways men and women grow to be more alike than different ‘in the end’.
Meh. I’m just rambling. My husband just looked over my shoulder, read what I was writing and looked me in the eyes and burst out laughing.
RE: Fat. I think fat is a feminine trait more than a masculine one. I think too much fat on women is unattractive and fat and ‘man boobs’ and ‘huge gut’ on a man is even more icky and repellent. A fat guy is repulsive to me on so many levels. Bleh
It gives men an excuse not to be men and who wanted to lower her status to be equal with men anyway?
Sara – I hope the last part of that sentence is intended to mock the feminist attitude you say you “despise” … not a snarky “grrrrl power” shot on your part. The “we’re better than you” (regardless of who says it, male or female) is really, really old and counterproductive.
Frankly, I think we are long past the era in which recounting gender grievances is going to do us much good. Men blah blah blah *spit*. Women blah blah blah *spit*. There is a reason why the Bible enjoins us to consider “the plank in thine own eye” before pointing the finger at others. This should be infinitely more so when it concerns the person to whom one has pledged one’s lifelong love and loyalty.
What I can say with some assurance is that no-fault divorce was NOT the solution to the “trapped in an abusive marriage” problem that was supposedly so rampant that divorce laws in every state had to be overhauled. What no-fault divorce did do was to give the cheaters, dumpers and whores of both sexes virtually all the leverage. Hmmm. If one were the suspicious type, one would suspect that the “abusive marriage” argument was just the fig leaf excuse, and the real reason behind the cultural, legal and political push was … drum roll … that people wanna shag whom they wanna shag, and there comes a point where they also want society to accommodate their shagging preferences.
In spite of the mountains of evidence that making divorce easier, legally speaking, and so commonplace as to be virtually taboo-free, culturally speaking, has been disastrous for, what, two to three generations of kids … the so-called grown-ups are still hell-bent on finding serial bed partners. The lack of honest debate, the ridiculing of cultural conservatives, and the rates of out-of-wedlock births and abortions, indicate that we have not even begun, as a nation, to turn things around. And we won’t begin until we want to, until we see that continuing as we are is going to destroy us. Like an addict hitting true bottom, the light bulb has to go on. I do not see any indication that that has yet happened.
It should be abundantly clear by now, for instance, that (a) girls having sex with guys before marriage does not make guys more marriage minded; quite the opposite; (b) since the law will not back you up if you are a faithful and committed marriage partner finding yourself in a situation where your spouse wants to dump you, if you have two brain cells to rub together you need to either get a prenup or marry under covenant marriage law in one of the states that has that (LA and AZ last time I checked); and (c) virtually everything the culture at large is feeding you about love, marriage & what men and women “ought” to do or be, is garbage; if you want a successful marriage you are going to have to tune the culture out and find more reliable sources of relational examples and advice.
And everything I have just said in the paragraph above, SHOULD be informing people’s choices in prospective mates. Forget the cro-magnon-brow-and-lantern-jaw stuff. It’s character. And you find good and bad character in both the macho-looking and the everyday-ordinary types. Common sense OUGHT to inform where one’s best chances lie, and common sense OUGHT to be applied to any planning of permanent arrangements. Is common sense even that common, though? Doesn’t seem like it. Down the slippery slope we continue to go.
P.S. In the case of the Indiana divorce that Sara recounted, the problem was not Indiana divorce law regarding alimony, but a jackass judge. As I found out myself in the armed robbery case in which I was, unfortunately, the robb-ee, there is no defense against a jackass judge. Not even copious airtight evidence and solid eyewitness testimony. The judge is the king of his courtroom, and when the judge is a jackass, you are well and truly screwed.
“126. Sara (Pal2Pal):
Women struggle to keep their weight at normal levels and it isn’t all that easy when you gain weight with every baby that never seems to come off again. Men, OTOH, seem to figure that once they snag the girl, they can let themselves go. They’ll demand that their women look like the latest teen model and criticize her for being a size 14 instead of the size two that society is telling us these days is the ideal. Did it ever occur to you that maybe women don’t like some slobbering beer gut on top of them at will.”
Been married 14 years now – two kids – I’m acquainted with the weight struggles that come after children. I’m 6 ft tall, 200 lbs – my wife was 5’6″ and about 135 lbs on our wedding day. Today she outweighs me. I’m the same size I was when we married – no beer gut. And definitely no slobbering!
My comments above ceased to be relevant to my own circumstances once I married. I married because I fell in love, and knew beyond all doubt that when I was 85 years old, this was the woman I wanted to be gumming applesauce with. Her current size is immaterial for the most part because of that. See, I KNOW this woman. She KNOWS me. There’s nothing out there, size 2 or otherwise, that can even come close to competing with that.
These men you speak of who took advantage of their wive’s good graces and became physical pigs, or ditched their wives once they had better opportunities come along, aren’t men. They are selfish brats in men’s bodies, and it’s a shame those ladies didn’t spot them before they married them.
Bogie Wheel @ 6
I just read in the latest Science News about how some male frogs exposed to certain chemicals, will mate with other male frogs and somehow the frogs produce eggs.
Just frogs, mind you, but still, the mind boggles.
Still, though, I think the story is more cultural than hormonal in that sense.
What is the fixation on this Sexist Bovine Excrement.
My guess is if an 18 year old boy is needed to stand in front and defend society with a rifle, and there is only one, his masculine versus feminine characteristics would seem superfluous.
And let’s never forget that character can be developed.
129. no mo uro:
“If a woman (or a man, for that matter) cannot put the damn fork down, to what else in their life will they be unable to apply self-control?
That much lack of self-discipline, up to and including the point where what you are doing endangers your health, will never be attractive.”
You’ve nailed it, NMU, that’s exactly what I was trying to express. Thank you for the capable assist!!
Sara by her own admission has been married for 32 years. That makes her simply irrelevant to today’s discussion, which is what is the preference for men among women who have value and worth in today’s marriage market. Women ages 18-27.
While I am sure Sara has value as a human being, she’s not going to marry a young man and have kids with him. Demographic collapse is part of women marrying at age 32 and having one designer eugenics baby at age 36, vs. Muslim or Mexican women having kids at age 19 or so, and having 5 total. The rate of population increase and decrease for each group is exponential over time. Leading to population replacement, as VDH has noted about Ancient Greece and Rome — they simply ran out of soldiers due to declining populations.
This is critical because unless technology CONSTANTLY advances, it cannot account for population differentials. You get conquered if you are rich, and not many. Technology inevitably spreads. Technology only advances if lots and lots of men are focused into it, because it rewards them in some way. America’s technological collapse in the wave of feminism and female desire, unmoderated by older women and social mores, is obvious and undeniable. Look at how popular culture sorts men by their desirability by women. Vampires, hunky rich inherited wealth preppies, and so on #1, nerds and geeks #last.
Sara asks, what do men want in women? Men would like to be Tom Brady or Jessie James or Tiger Woods, but nearly all lack the ability. It is not superior morals but lack of desirability. While most fit and together young women are attractive, physique is only the necessary but not sufficient condition for female attraction. Women do not understand male attraction, thinking it is a mirror of their own. Women desire first physical fitness, then status/power, and then “a-holery” or arrogant jackassness. Blogger Roissy in DC had a post of what women wanted — the battle weary WWII Marine in the Pacific, and Mystery, the freakishly eye-liner and pierced pick up artist. Sort of a latter day Warren Beatty, who slept with 12,000 women according to one biographer.
Men, on the other hand, desire a combination of youth, beauty, intelligence, and not many sexual partners, as far as long term relationships leading to marriage/family. For pure sex, only beauty. As Tiger Woods and Jessie James shows, men are not picky about pure sex.
What has happened is that contraception, anonymous urban living, rising female incomes, and collapse of social mores leads women to ABSOLUTE sexual freedom. Women no longer WANT beta providers. Far from being gold-diggers, women want studs and cads, and can use (if they are middle or upper middle class) illegal alien nannies and so forth for child care and household work.
Sandra Tsing Loh’s derisive appellation of “Kitchen Bitch” shows how little women value the traditional provider beta male? Why would they? They have the ability to provide for themselves and find supplicating, “niceness” revolting.
If we are on a rendezvous with scarcity, as Ed Driscoll says, then I don’t expect things to change, unless the position of women suddenly gets far worse economically. Indeed, it is far likely to accelerate women into full blown desire for the thuggiest thug bad boy, and social collapse, than anything else. “Jim” from “The Office” is not a good choice when things are desperate, far better is the local thug gangster. Neither is say, your average nerdy engineer.
This is a truly fascinating topic but the article draws false conclusions.
The great thing about our species is that we have malleable behaviors that adjust to meet our place in the ecosystem. We can be monogamous when it is in our best interest and polygamous when that’s the better play.
Men and women have somewhat conflicting interests when it comes to sex and reproduction, obviously.
Rather than expound, let me offer a great book on the subject, “Sperm Wars.” Don’t let the title put you off – you’ll see the points made quite well.
http://www.amazon.com/Sperm-Wars-Infidelity-Conflict-Bedroom/dp/1560258489/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269806348&sr=1-1
Picking up on what a bunch of you have written…
How would one measure the association between “high” levels of medical care (as defined by whom? the WHO?), and the dominant cultural themes regarding masculinity and what is desirable in a male?
I suspect a deeper driver is what for lack of a better term I will call “European Social Democratic culture,” that leads to a feminized view of the role of the state, as well as the role of a mate (rhymes!!)
The state assumes the (formerly) male role of protector and provider. The male, no longer needed for protection or as a source of income, becomes a companion to the female. But for the penis, of interest to the hetero woman, anyone of sympatico temperament and interests will do. Certainly don’t need anyone who might be challenging.
Add the strong gay presence in all things cultural and artistic, and the transgressive and critical view so many of them seem to bring to it.
All of which could work, except for three things:
1. Social Democracy is financially unsustainable and will ultimately bankrupt itself.
2. There is no cultural or economic drive to reproduce, so the polity or cultural unit becomes sterile and shrinks toward die-off.
3. The polity becomes less able to defend itself against aggressive forces both within and without, esp. the latter, and as it financially and demographically weakens, it falls prey to those forces.
QED?
Sarah @ 121
Yes, maybe it’s the law of unintended consequences or maybe it was foreseen, but aggressive feminism has hurt many women in many ways, especially those in the middle-to-lower end of the socio-economic spectrum. Exactly the opposite of what was claimed for it… but what else is new, when liberals ignore their inherent cognitive limitations and start trying to think?
No one loves a soldier ’til the enemy’s at the gates… a tall, dark and handsome soldier gettin’ divored at 40, I sure know that’s true. America’s Least Wanted, let me tell you… if only I were “free” money given away by Democrats.
wretchard @ 12
re the attractive male—
In addition to what others responded, a few years ago I saw an article noting how male movie leads no longer have body hair, at least in the movies it has been removed—comparing to say the 1940s-50s, clearly those who make movies believe that males without chest hair are more attractive or will be seen as more attractive.
Of course, most movies are targeted at 14-year olds, so the “youth” explanation also applies.
Was it CS Lewis who wrote about the men without chests? Just free-associating, here.
On the issue of weight gain and self-control, may I refer the readers here to the excellent book _Good Calories, Bad Calories_, which includes a detailed, scholarly review of (AFAICT) every published article on weight gain or loss, diabetes, heart diseases, and diet.
As it turns out, self-control has little to do with it. The obesity epidemic we see is due to the last 40 years’ of exceedingly poor dietary advice, which tell us that a low-fat diet is good for us. This is not supported by the evidence.
I read this book twice, cover to cover, as avidly as any mystery novel!
It has nothing to do with health. The women are choosing men who have a better chance of securing long lucrative careers in our increasingly credentialized world. To acquire the necessary credentials requires a calculating and ingratiating intelligence and this shows in the relatively feminized male faces. Given their druthers women still want firemen as bedmates, but not as long term mates.
Yes it was intended as mockery of the feminist position. I like a man who opens doors, takes my arm, compliments me when I look nice, etc, etc. I like a man who makes me feel special and cared for, even though I don’t need him to get along in life, I miss not having that around.
No way. Physical health yes (meaning no diseases), fitness is way way down on the list after honor, integrity, trustworthiness, a good work ethic, and intelligence.
Whiskey, I read Sandra Tsing Loh’s essay in “Atlantic” defending cheating on her hubby and playing the victim card. It was appalling and probably representative of many of the urban girls you deride. I’ll take my Kitchen Queen( who is a smart, lovely, accomplished joy) over frigid city intellectual bitches like Loh
any day.
Thanks Whiskey, always nice to know I’m irrelevant and have no value. I guess the Admin. is right, those of us over 50 should just hurry up and die.
IMHO:
Gary Cooper – yep
Johnny Depp – nope
John Wayne – yep
Gregory Peck – yep
George Clooney – nope
Zach Effron – nope
Jeff Bridges – yep
Ben Affleck – nope
Where have all the studly men gone? I wish somebody today would fill their shoes so that I can look forward to a movie again.
Alexis, before you slander a good man perhaps you should do something that your side conviently forgets when making a point or statement rather than blather on about the latest talking point (aka bald-face lie) and that is: CHECK THE FACTS FIRST.
http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/dgagliasso/2010/02/28/john-wayne-world-war-ii-and-the-draft/
“The charges of Wayne being a “draft dodger” are not new and with a simple Google search one can find any number of far left types absolutely blowing their “peace and love” credentials over Wayne and his lack of service in World War II. The truth is far more complex and even “hidden in plain sight” than one would think.
Upon graduating from Glendale High School in 1925, Wayne applied to the U.S. Naval Academy at Annapolis, hoping to live out his dream of being a career Naval officer. He came close but was instead chosen the first alternate candidate.
By the start of World War II Wayne had been suffering for years from a badly torn shoulder muscle incurred in a body surfing accident that cost him his football scholarship at USC in 1927. He also had a bad back from performing his own stunts during ten years acting in “B” Westerns. Moreover, he suffered from a chronic ear infection, resulting from hours of underwater filming on Cecil B. De Mille’s Reap the Wild Wind in 1941. Had Wayne actually undergone a pre-induction physical, he might indeed have been classified 4-F.
According to Randy Roberts and James Olson’s top notch John Wayne American, as a married but separated father of four and thirty-four years old in 1942 Wayne was classified by the Selective Service as 3-A (deferred for family dependency). In 1944 as the U.S. Military feared a manpower shortage he was reclassified 1-A (draft eligible). There is no record that he disputed this reclassification but his employer, Republic Studios, did and requested he be given a 2-A classification (deferred in the national interest, i.e., war bond drives, visiting the troops, etc.). Selective Service records for World War II are spotty at best, many having been destroyed, but surviving records indicate these claims were filed “by another,” i.e. Republic Studio’s legal department. In fact, a letter from Republic Studios head Herbert Yates threatened to sue Wayne for breach of contract should he leave the studio for volunteer military service, though it is doubtful he would have carried through with the threat. But Wayne was indeed Republic’s biggest moneymaker during the war and that studio’s only “A” star at the time.
Yet, according to director John Ford’s grandson, in 1943 John Wayne tried to get a commission in the Marine Corps and get attached to Ford’s O.S.S. (the forerunner of the C.I.A.) Field Photographic Unit. In Pappy; the Life of John Ford, Dan Ford says emphatically “…that the billets were frozen in 1943. John (Ford) couldn’t get Wayne in as an enlisted man, much less an officer.”
There is a letter from Wayne to Ford in May of 1942 in the John Ford Papers at Indiana State University quoted by Davis in which Wayne practically begs his mentor to find a way for him to join up: “Have you any suggestions on how I should get in? Can you get me assigned to your outfit, and if you could, would you want me? How about the Marines? You have Army and Navy men under you. Have you any Marines or how about a Seabee or what would you suggest or would you? No I’m not drunk. I just hate to ask for favors, but for Christ sake you can suggest can’t you? No kidding, coach who’ll I see.” No response by Ford has yet surfaced but these don’t sound like the words of a man shirking his duty. Wayne’s sometimes secretary at Republic, Catalina Lawrence, remembered writing letters to various military officials inquiring about possible service during this time period”
So, Alexis, maybe a real apology for slandering the good name of Marion Robert Morrison, aka John Wayne, is in order.
Limpet6, the notion that leaders should lead the attack goes way, way back. It didn’t start with John Wayne. Look up Alexander the Great and Richard the Lionheart, both of whom earned their reputations, and the undying loyality and devotion of their men, by being in the thick of the battle. Their men fought harded and against all odds because their king fought alongside of them, and they won battle after battle. Perhaps your 2nd lieutenants were trying to live up to the example of the real warrior-kings, and not some movie actor. Oh, and look up why the Marines sing about the Shores of Tripoli. The Corps has plenty of examples of leading from the front that new 2nd lieutenants may attempt to live up to, not that of an actor playing make-believe.
Spot on. I would add Richard Widmark to my list of yeps.
Hope you all have a pleasant Palm Sunday. I’m outta here before my anger over Whiskey’s insult gets the better of me.
its just that women see things differently than guys. a woman calls you a stud its because you look good in a bowtie, when a guy calls you a stud its because he can rip your head off and shit in your chest cavity.lol
Luckily for me, I’m old, sick, ugly and broke…so I don’t have to worry too much about what women prefer.
Whatever it is they want…it sure ain’t me.
And, now my life is quiet, peaceful and eminently pleasant.
Mr. Tarnsman,
“[T]he notion that leaders should lead the attack goes way, way back”
I once did a calculation that in certain, beyond-design-basis nuclear power plant accidents, the guys who were in the control room could get doses of radiation that would be sickening but not likely fatal. I asked some of the operators what they would do.
The answer was clear and repeated. They’d stick to their posts and deal with it BUT they would expect the site manager to be in there with them, soaking up the same dose, “leading from the front.”
It is the way of brave men and good leaders.
As to women liking pretty boys, they often want what other women want. So if they are impregnanted, their male children will be popular with the ladies too. Hence the charm of rock stars and their groupies.
I’m not sure I agree. Sure, I’ve always wondered what females thought of someone like Rod Stewart singing “Do Ya Think I’m Sexy.” But sometimes I think these shrinks are just studying the wrong women. If you study a bunch of college girls or business women, sure – they want metrosexuals. That’s because, if they’re looking for mates at all, they want mates who will fit in with their career plans, financial requirements, and self-images. It’s just that simple. Women are programmed to mate with the best nest-builders. In our society, that means rich guys who fit in in cities and suburbs – not the guys from “Dangerous Catch.”
And women who like manly men hang around where the manly men are. They specifically seek out situations where they can meet firemen, cops, military guys, construction workers, loggers, cowboys, etc. In other words, the kinds of situations shrinks never think about.
Tarnsman
“Leading from the front” is something altogether different than believing the only way to lead is by competing with your men in all things. I can see a deft ploy to change the issue when I see one.
Sara(Pal2Pal)
Glad you brought up Widmark whose style in “The Frogmen” and “Destination Gobi” was far closer to studied reality than that of Mr. Wayne (who I greatly enjoined when he was playing larger than life characters like Rooster Cogburn.)
Great rogues like Davey Crockett’s Mike Fink and Kenneth Robert’s Cap Huff and Hunk Marriner have their origins in the scamps in all bands of men.
Are you saying that Obama pushed Obamacare so that more women would be attracted to his look?
I worked as software developer for an engineer intensive company for over a decade. There were a very large number, by far the majority, of younger engineers who had very attractive wives and who invariably would tell you they met them their senior year in college or shortly after graduation. With rare exceptions, none of these engineers would be mistaken for robust outdoors types or even of regularly working out. I think it’s the type of a male society rewards that women are attracted to and if society has an agenda that grants benefits to the “metro sexual male”, then that’s who women will prefer. Were there to be a few decades of Hollywood putting more masculine men in prominent movie roles, in every series on television, and of the terminally trendy casting the same sort of in thousands of commercials, then I there’d be articles written taking just the opposite view.
The correlation of wealth with the apparent difference in taste may capture what is happening, but I think it incorrectly attributes it economic differences when the wealthier a modern culture, the more that culture is influenced by a predictably biased minority in major media.
Women prefer the macho Alpha as the father of their children but they prefer the compliant, well paid, responsible Beta as husband and provider. Amazingly Beta fathers are pleased to have Alpha sons. If they are not, divorce laws ensure the Alpha children will be cared for by Beta husbands. A mitochondrial DNA study coupled with this research would be very droll.
“Sort of a latter day Warren Beatty, who slept with 12,000 women according to one biographer.”
Man, he must have a HUGE bed.
Without question, the absolutely most stupid thing I have ever read. The writer has the reasoning skills of a four year old.
Unfortunately for women, technology and the womens movement has painted them into a corner.In the old days women were necessary to keep the home fires burning, raise the children write thank you notes etc.Now women are really pleasent accessories.Since most of them have stopped raising children, cooking and cleaning their only real function is sex, and that really pisses them off, but reality has never been kind.Since my mom died there are only two women that I have to please(sister and gf)and I really don’t give a shit what other women think, I don’t have to.
Regarding Fat Women, Heilemann & Halperin (“Game Change”) relate a polling response about John Edwards to the effect that the woman being polled liked Edwards because he had a “fat wife.” That would be Elizabeth (who apparently gives lie to the rumor that fat women are placid and content.) The poll was from 2007 before the Edwards campaign crashed and burned under the (light) weight of Reille Hunter (allegedly so well known on “the circuit” that she served as the role model for the “ostensibly jaded, cocaine-addled, sexually voracious” character Alison Poole in Jay McInerney’s novel “Story of my Life.”)
I’m telling you, it’s a great read.
This decrepit over-50 American woman thinks rugged doers or manly geek is most desirable in a man and mate, not classically handsome with chiseled features or effete pretty, sensitive or vampire “dark”. Sexy men are uber competent, territorial, protective of wimmin and kin, can partner with a woman, and are role models for children and community. He is muscular, fat, skinny and short– comes in all sizes.
Attitude, drive and values in a man constitute the package and not the, um, package.
And no dought Homo’s best of all huh? sounds like baloney to me. There are a lot of sissy’s ,thanks to today’s educational system.
Re 163: They are muscular, fat, etc. and come in all sizes.
Wouldn’t let me edit.
IMHO:
Gary Cooper – yep
Johnny Depp – nope
John Wayne – yep
Gregory Peck – yep
George Clooney – nope
Zach Effron – nope
Jeff Bridges – yep
Ben Affleck – nope
Where have all the studly men gone?
Spot on. I would add Richard Widmark to my list of yeps.
And…most of the guys on “Band of Brothers”.
In real life, it seems likely that there are several behavioral morphs among females and males, or perhaps even their preferences exist along a normal curve … and that these different morphs exist in some sort of dynamic equilibrium.
After all, the alphas need soldiers and lackeys … and while we have been living the good times for a while now, when the shit hits the fan a different sort of man is needed, not the whiny ladies-man sort.
“If we are on a rendezvous with scarcity, as Ed Driscoll says, then I don’t expect things to change, unless the position of women suddenly gets far worse economically. Indeed, it is far likely to accelerate women into full blown desire for the thuggiest thug bad boy, and social collapse, than anything else. “Jim” from “The Office” is not a good choice when things are desperate, far better is the local thug gangster. Neither is say, your average nerdy engineer.”
I’m far too old, and too happily married, for that to matter to me, but I doubt it’s that simple. What if your average nerdy engineer is an armed former Marine with a black belt in karate?
There is a reason that the city streets are awash with thug blood, and it’s not people like me. These are, for the most part, amazingly stupid and self destructive individuals. I knew men like that in the Marines. They ended up dead or in prison. Absent law enforcement, there’s still not much of a future in it. If a rival doesn’t knock you off, one of your own will.
This news has got to make Democrat men happy.
Frankly, my dear, he-men don’t give a damn what menly-girls want.
she may want to live with beta boy but often the woman grabs sperm from Eastwood, on the side.
Talk of ‘holes and poles’ (127.) is a sad, sad truth that few speak of.
What is that you ask?
A woman’s clitoris is often overlooked even though the overall clitoral mass is actually larger than the penis (and serves as a function for her pleasure and only her pleasure):
Study Claims Clitoris Larger Than Thought
New Scientist Planet Science: The truth about women
Time for rethink on the clitoris
Maybe it’s time for men to learn that women are more than just “holes” for poking their winky-dinks in (men have “holes” for plundering too by the by) and get with learning about the female pleasure zones. Of course, we are all more than the sum of our parts but good grief, man-boy-children, wise up.
Those men who are looking for a ‘breeder’ give young women the ultimate creep warning. Seriously, dude, if you are just looking for a woman to breed with like some uterus-for-hire broodmare then you’ve got some deep issues, man. Time to reevaluate who you are as a person and not just as a man.
Now. Concerning Sara’s plight. Women outlive men and probably should be looking for men at least 10 years younger than themselves. Women shouldn’t have to be alone in old age because the old man croaked. So, sister Sara, check out the younger men. There are some find specimens out there who have had their kids or don’t want any and are looking for a real companion in every sense of the word. Men (generally) have an expiration date that doesn’t coincide with female longevity. Have fun looking and be careful!
Tarnsman:
I apologize for using source material vastly inferior to yours. Although I acted in good faith, I was far too sloppy in my background research for the impromptu comments I made earlier at the Belmont Club.
Your evidence shows that Marion Morrison failed key tests of leadership. If he had truly lived up to the John Wayne persona, he would have dared Republic Studios to file suit against him in wartime to keep him out of the military.
Given his injuries, the military would not have put Marion Morrison on front line duty, that is, if it didn’t reject him altogether. Likewise, Ronald Reagan’s nearsightedness kept him from getting sent overseas. Among other duties, Ronald Reagan served on the First Motion Picture Unit during World War II.
It is downright appalling that Republic Studios should have failed to see the public relations bonanza to authorizing military status for its premier star. It is perhaps a failure of imagination that they wouldn’t even ask the military to assign him as an information officer to Republic Studios. Its behavior during World War II showed that Republic Pictures was a movie studio that deserved to become defunct by 1960.
So, I withdraw my reference to Marion Morrison as a draft dodger. Republic Studio acted as a draft dodger on his behalf, even against his personal wishes. Yet, this was not unusual for draft dodgers during the Vietnam War. Some mothers who had remembered World War II absolutely insisted upon finding a spot in the National Guard for their sons. Others would arrange for auditions to military bands. Yet others would push their sons to flee to Canada. Anything to keep them from getting killed in Vietnam.
It is often supposed in modern historiography that young men who simply didn’t want to serve in Vietnam instigated a rash of draft dodging. Not so. Don’t forget the mothers! Spartan mothers expected their sons to die with their shields or on them. Not every American mother was like that during the Vietnam War.
So again, I withdraw my reference to Marion Morrison as a draft dodger. Instead, Republic Studio gave mothers throughout America a sterling example of how to keep their boys out of the military. This example was emulated one generation later throughout America.
John Wayne, great hero on the silver screen. Marion Morrison, dutiful son to his corporate mother who directed him not to serve in the military.
Geeze Louise/118
That link is hilarious!
Their lives are as empty as their “dwellings”. A good material for a feel good demagogues to pour prefabricated babble into empty vessels.
I am out of the game for a while and enjoy the scenery and tranquility. I’ve been attracted to somewhat nutty types (mildly nutty, not psychotic, though my first X was decidedly a borderline) apparently, so I need to get over that pattern before I attempt for another relationship, hopefully long lasting.
I know that there are ones to my liking out there. No-twiggy, hourglass curvacious figure (old school guy I am), one that can cook as well as I can, but is not required to know much about electrical fixtures or a proper concrete mix for a patio.
Not mildly nutty! That is a prerequisite! I can supply a mild nuttiness as a spice on my own!
In 2 to 5 years, things will shift dramatically. The rules of the game (as it is today) would change. The old fashioned virtues (today considered and unwanted baggage of by-gone times, “we are all post-something”), loyalty, fidelity, “I’ve got your back”, common sense that is so uncommon at the moment, will return as a result of the upcoming storm. The hipster caricature of a human will collapse with a thud of dismembered plywood sheets.
This news has got to make Democrat men happy.
Given such sterling case studies as John “Pretty Boy” Edwards, Barney Frank, John Kerry (he of the spandex water-skiing outfit), Rahm the premier danseur wannabe, and the current metrosexual-in-chief, “Democrat men” is well on its way to replacing “honest lawyer” as the standard dictionary example of an oxymoron.
@156 Are you saying that Obama pushed Obamacare so that more women would be attracted to his look?
Why would that faggot care?
The day is rapidly approaching when the excess wealth and protective shell previous generations labored and died to provide for Americans will finish dissolving.
When it does, there will be a general but not complete break down in “law and order”, and a lot of folks who give a sh!t about their families will once again take care of business when no other realistic remedy exists.
When that happens, the “Alpha” bad boys will quickly amend their ways to act respectably or they’re likely to come down with a debilitating or deadly case of lead poisoning courtesy of an outraged father, husband or brother.
When reliable contraceptives are no longer widely, cheaply and easily available, the entire situation will change, and “game” will only be a quick ticket to pregnancy for women and lead poisoning for irresponsible men.
There’s a reason the term “Shotgun wedding” is widely known. It will be personally familiar to a lot of young men as things continue to come unraveled.
On a slightly different but related subject. I live in a “nice” middle class community in the S.F. Bay Area. It is usually a Mecca for middle class couples with young children, or who hope to have children since it’s a safe place to raise them, with decent public schools.
Since the economic crash last year there has been a distinct absence of pregnant young married women in my area. I wonder if this phenomenon is local or if many responsible taxpaying couples whose parenthood would benefit our society the most are choosing to forgo or delay children until more favorable economic conditions.
I wonder if women on welfare are showing similar behavior.
172,
Somehow, I get the impression that you presume we are some kind of aging teenagers here. Get a grip!
Your recipe to Sara is manifesting, in transposition, in more frequent occurrences of 25-35yo predator female teachers that can’t keep their crotch from 15yo teenagers. Yea, I fantasized about young female teachers when I was 15, but I had no idea what a wreck is the result when the fantasies intrude into reality. The teachers usually have, except the self-indulgent narcissistic sociopaths that pass these days for educators. Males and females.
What is the breakdown on how women have voted in the last 25-30 years in the U.S. Presidential elections?
Armageddon Rex/177
I wonder if this phenomenon is local or if many responsible taxpaying couples whose parenthood would benefit our society the most are choosing to forgo or delay children until more favorable economic conditions.
They may be for a very long wait. I have once also been in a similar predicament (two people escape easier than three), but in retrospective, it was a mistake.
I, for one, am glad that John Wayne got to make pictures like “Fighting Seabees.”
Loved that movie – my Dad was a Seabee in the Solomons in WWII.
And it is OK to choose a wife because she will make a fine mother to your children. In fact, that should be a man’s highest priority.
Sara has no plight, she is quite content as an independent woman. I have several male “buddies” who are around enough to satisfy my need for male company and don’t expect me to perform for them. They are intelligent Alpha males and they are in the group because they made it past all my tests and didn’t allow me to emasculate them so that they get all defensive or competitive. What it boils down to is respect. They keep me grounded without stifling me. They give me encouragement to go for it and they act as sounding boards for all my good and hairbrained ideas. And every single one of them knows that in me they have one of the most loyal friends they’ll ever have and I feel the same way about them.
This weekend I’m having a small meltdown as I lost my very best friend of over 40 years to a sudden heart attack while she was at dinner with her daughter after work late Thursday night. It is times like these when I miss having someone special in my life, someone who will hold and comfort me as I cry in the middle of the night. Someone who won’t think I’m crazy because all I want to do is scream. Someone who will be strong as I give in to the deepest grief and shock I’ve ever experienced.
If all I wanted was sex, there are plenty of younger men ready and willing. I get emails from them on a regular basis. I didn’t particularly like younger guys when I was younger, always preferring men in their late forties to early sixties. Now that I fall in that age range, I still like them that age, but unfortunately they like the younger women, like I once was.
I’m not over my anger at Whiskey’s statement and I have just one thing to say: have fun getting those young hardbodies to wipe your butt when you’re seventy and incontinent. They’ll leave you before you can blink.
My friend who just passed away liked young guys. She liked using them for sex and then shooing them out the door as quickly as possible. No talking, just do it and leave. That isn’t me. I have to feel very safe with a man before I’m willing to let him have a piece of me, a piece of my soul, so to speak, in such an intimate manner. Metrosexual types do not engender the feeling of safety, since most of them are great big wusses. One of my “buddies” told a mutual friend who was trying to get my attention that he needed to back off and let me take the lead. It is interesting what you learn about yourself listening to others who know you well. He told this guy, “her walls are high, but if she lets you over them, you’re in for life and you won’t regret it.” Respect. Respect. Respect. If there is no respect, all the thinness, all the money, all the power, or all the good looks mean absolutely zero.
While there is a seed of truth in the “Whiskey Theory”, it’s important to remember where he’s wrong:
(1) The effect is not from ‘all women’, it is from the approximately half who have the preference frame of “chasing the bad boys”. Considering that this is a group that, population wise, is larger than the state of California, it’s going to have effects.
(2) Similarly, in response to his assertion that all men would like to be Tom Brady/Jesse James, this is only true for about half of men when push comes to shove, too.
(3) This is not a new phenomenon, but a new front in the oldest cultural war of all.
We can call the big man/harem system of social organization “Alphaism”, and it’s the oldest ideology of all, predating humanity. It is how most mammals operate. It also is suboptimal for humans. Human history is one long campaign of the alphas getting stomped into hamburger, with occasional reversions when changes in technology and/or social organization allow the substantial fraction with old-school mammalian instincts to escape painstakingly made cultural constraints.
We think of kings and pharoahs – but they were stomped on by Greek and Roman citizen farmers. The knightly nobility of the middle ages persists in our memories long after yeoman archers and commoners with pikes replaced them as war-winners. Farmers’ sons with muskets blew through most of the world’s fierce warrior cultures in a fairly short period of time. All of these were accomplished by subordinating personal glory to discipline and effort – a most unalphalike trait.
It fails more specifically as well. Whiskey has talked about the instability of polygamous societies, so I won’t rehash that. We are also all aware, I believe, of the significantly worse outcomes for children of single mothers. What works for gorillas and chimps does not work for humans – but humanity has not finished the changeover of its sexual operating system from Polygamy to Monogamy. There are still large chunks of the population running on legacy code – and that’s why culture matters, it suppresses the dysfunctional behavior of those parts to tolerable levels.
So why did women’s liberation and integration into society spark the latest outbreak of alphaism? I conclude that it is a direct outcome of women previously being marginalized and kept out of the economy and politics!
We speak of a common culture, but we don’t share all aspects of it. There is a female culture and a male culture within a society – things we teach girls, and which girls teach each other, and expectations of their behavior, which are not the same as the parallel experiences boys have. This is crucial. If the boys were raised wrong – if attitudes and mores and methods of conflict resolution were systemically bad in the economic, political, or military spheres – society would suffer mightily when they grew to be men, and might collapse to the assault of more functional rivals.
The same was *not* true of girls: women, being unequal before the law and kept away from power, did not have this reality check. At least, not until very recently. And what we stuff our daughters’ heads with isn’t terribly helpful in helping them be independents and the equals of men. Many women have muddled through to achieve well by themselves and society anyways – I’m sure many of the women reading this thread can agree – but as a whole the female half of humanity is living a schizophrenic existence where they are trying to hold onto a past where they were treated like children and a future where they will be treated as equals. In the process, with femininity in flux, that cohort of bad-boy seeking women has broken free of the constraints society and other women placed upon their behavior, and in turn that has encouraged the bad-boys themselves to run wild.
I think that’s our problem in a nutshell. In the long run it will get ironed out – if we can survive the current turbulence and opportunistic parasites trying to take advantage of the cultural and demographic confusion.
183. Locarno: Very well said. I agree that womens’ liberation has just begun.
The world is a wacky difficult place for males, and it must be much harder for young women. I have two daughters, 18 and 20.
Oh good gief. There have always been strong women. And I know of no women who are torn between wanting to be treated as a child and being equal. Men are the children. They’d be lost without women to tell them what to do. Women have had a say in politics going back to ancient times, there have been powerful queens and powerful more modern leaders. And the saying, behind every powerful man is a strong and powerful woman didn’t come by happenstance.
It sounds like you are the one with the issues.
but as a whole the female half of humanity is living a schizophrenic existence where they are trying to hold onto a past where they were treated like children and a future where they will be treated as equals.
Geeze Louise
Alexis,
You seem to have a burr under you saddle about John Wayne/Republic Studios.
John made five movies dealing the war during that period. I suppose you would have sent all actors and actresses to defend the mother land and have theaters sit empty!
“Then again, women have always asked, why must we choose either/or in a mate, and not all-in-one?”
I used to work in a level 1 trauma center. Physicians and nurses who work with the most violently injured or the most critically ill and the dying sometimes use the psycho-defense mechanism of cynical “dark humor” – joking about the terrible scenes which pass into their hands every day in order to stop crying. An example of this was coining the term “NARP” – “Not a real person.” This term was sometimes used for the lowest of the low – the sick drug addict who cursed you, and struck or spit at you as you tried to care for him – or sometimes faking an illness in order to obtain narcotics – wasting your time while others waited to be seen.
In later years I’ve often reflected on the phrase, and reflected on the opposite of it. What is a real person? My answer is that a real man is both his animal (testosterone and all) self and that part of him that is occupied by God’s Spirit. NARP it seems to me is the man who is only an animal – either brutish or cunning – and also the man who is afraid of the animal within, seeking unnaturally to be fully “spiritual.”
Hey! That looks like Rachel Maddow in the pic for this story. HAHAH! Good one!
The Roman Empire fell because of the moral and intellectual smallness of her people – the true measure of emasculation.
“This long peace, and the uniform government of the Romans, introduced a slow and secret poison into the vitals of the empire. The minds of men were gradually reduced to the same level, the fire of genius was extinguished, and even the military spirit evaporated… This diminutive stature of mankind, if we pursue the metaphor, was daily sinking below the old standard, and the Roman world was indeed peopled by a race of pygmies, when the fierce giants of the north broke in and mended the puny breed. They restored a manly spirit of freedom; and, after the revolution of ten centuries, freedom became the happy parent of taste and science.” Edward Gibbon – The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire
http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/03/freedom_of_the_mind_and_the_em.html
Speaking of John Wayne, didn’t FDR enlist the Hollywood crowd to keep morale up, as well as for selling war bonds and manning the canteens. Was their contribution any less important to our war effort than those out on the front lines. I would say no, just a different kind of contribution. As one who saw my husband do 4 tours in Vietnam, I know that when Bob Hope brought his road show to the troops and to the hospitals, the pay off was a plus for all concerned. And when Toby Keith takes his show to the troops all over the world and sings, “kick ‘em in the ass, it’s the American way,” those guys and gals out there are ready to go kick some ass.
Sure the war movies were propaganda movies. They were designed to keep the people strong, raise morale of the troops, and to ring out Victory. Unlike the Hollywood of today, the Hollywood of that time actually believed in patriotism. The country was united, like one giant tea party.
My apologies to Sara and Geeze Louise, as I obviously did not take the proper care in wording that line if two people managed to misread it. Before the law, and in how strangers treated a woman, women were condescended to. They did not not have the vote, obviously, might not be able to hold property in their own name, might be considered not culpable of crimes by courts, etc. Society treated women in a deplorably childish fashion. Nowadays, society treats women as almost equals. But not quite equals – or haven’t you noted the sorts of attacks leveled at Sarah Palin and Hillary Clinton? The shadow of a sexist past is not yet completely lifted.
There have always been strong women, yes. History records quite the number of them. But that is in spite of, not because of, how society acculturated its young women. And how we raise girls still borrows heavily from that past. That is why I said that, on average, women display a cognitive dissonance between what they want (equality) and how society says they should act.
After reading 190+ comments I believe I have the answer:
Why do women redden lips
They redden them for me
Why do women blush their cheeks
They blush them just for thee
Why do women love a man
They love us just because
Why do women love a child
With love that gives us pause
Why do women walk this earth
Alongside men they love
It’s all because it seemed so right
To the good Lord up above
I obviously did not take the proper care in wording that line if two people managed to misread it
Misreading is uncomfortably related to public apologies that begin with the clause, “if I offended…”. There is nothing about your statement that I misread.
And I “manage” to read just fine.
Case in point for why I avoided this whole goofy post.
Regarding Palin and H. Clinton, read the Heilemann & Halperin book. Obama had the right skill set and the right staff. Neither Palin nor Hillary did. So the black demographic broke through first. Is that too complicated for anybody?
Eh, comment withdrawn.
If remotely correct, this explains exactly why civilisations ultimately fail, barbarians take over – and the whole damn thing repeats ad infintum.
#195 Walt
I prefer Samuel Hoffenstein’s two-line summary:
Breathes there a man with hide so tough
Who says two sexes aren’t enough?
O/t Does the raid on the militias portend a Reichstag fire scenario when the burning ruins of Obamaland fall on the Dems’ heads?
What do women want?
They want Prehistoric Man.
What do women want? They want me.
That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.
To be blogged under the title, awe heck just guess.
Locarno:
Don’t keep digging. I am a genealogist and as such, I have collected Last Wills and Testaments going back generations. Pre-Revolution, I often see the wives getting shut out in favor of the eldest son, but always allowed to continue to live in the family home and keep the marriage bed. But in those days, cooking pots were listed in wills and we were still under English law of primogeniture.
But the wills in the 1800-1900s show the girls in the family inheriting in equal measure with the other siblings, with the eldest son getting the largest share and the rest divided equally. I have the will of my greatgrandfather, where he bequeaths some money to his two sons, stating that since he put them thru college(one a doctor, the other an engineer) and they are settled, he felt they had gotten their birthright. He then spends two pages on his daughter, my Great Aunt. He leaves her all the property and investments, “since she is the one with a head for business.” This was written a year before women got the vote.
My Great Great Grandfather’s will divides up about 2000 acres of prime farm land in Pennsylvania between his 6 daughters and 5 sons. Since the acreage didn’t divide evenly, he made up for the difference to the girls with more money than the boys got. In many cases the women were the executrixes of these wills. So politically, women may be playing catch up, but as administrators, they’ve been handling things for a long long time.
On my paternal side, the ancestors were Quakers where women had total equality, so maybe this came into play. Quaker women, like Mormon women, have always been considered equals.
I personally subscribe to the Scarlett O’Hara scenario. Tough as nails in business, a gentle flower when playing a man for something I want and a hot kitten in the bedroom. The big mistake the Feminazis made/make is that they want their brand of equality which means making women fight without their best and most effective assets, like asking a baseball big hitter to bat one handed. And lastly, my paternal Grandfather left a note in his will about how happy he was to know that he only had Granddaughters as he knew they would have common sense and good money management skills. He was a Civil Engineer but made most of his money in real estate, stocks and precious gems. He left some property to my Dad directly and an equal share of properties to his daughter, then he left the bulk of his fortune to be split between his 3 granddaughters to be held in trust until we finished college. He made my Mother, his daughter-in-law, the Executrix “because she is the brains of the family.”
So you see I’m not entirely buying your premise.
Women in my family pretty much controlled the purse strings going back generations and they were also put on pedestals, honored and almost revered. There are no “take a back seaters” in my family as far as I can tell. They ruled the roost and everyone knew it. Now was it like that everywhere, maybe not. Those coming from Europe were probably not nearly as liberated. They came from male dominated societies, especially the Catholic countries, and perhaps women didn’t have the freedom I saw in my own.
As far as this woman is concerned, men are the ones who benefited from the women’s movement. They got to get out from under the burden of taking care of their families and they no longer had to honor women. The women’s movement and their pseudo-equality drive hurt women big time and took our power from us, lowering us to equality with men. Equal pay for equal work is a fairness issue, not a women’s issue, and other than that, name one good thing the lesbians who hijacked the movement have accomplished that is actually good for women in the long run?
This is by far the strangest and most convoluted reasoning this site has seen on a given subject. Reading these posts is like asking a three year old why he took the cookie and expecting a sensible answer.
Thank God i moved out of USA, the more i think about the nonsense and idiocy going on in America the more comfort i take in my environment.
Norm – you’re a gentleman.
And a scholar I’m sure.
trangang68 (200), what raid on which militias?
My concerns with how Palin and Clinton were treated has nothing to do with losing – politicians lose all the time – and everything to do with the rather revolting and eye-opening ways people would attack them as people. If I saw a similar level of racist vitriol aimed at Obama anywhere except in the imaginations of Democrats, I’d have revised my opinions on how far America’s come on race, too.
Since you have declined politeness, I will refrain from wasting more. You took offense where none was intended. I intended an image of a woman with a handhold on each side of a gap she was crossing, one side she wishes to be on, and one side she wishes to leave behind, and she’s holding onto the side she’s leaving not because she wants to but because she has no solid ground to stand on at the moment. Society is not providing solid ground for our young women. They are expecting the girl to be a go getter in her career and have a husband that earns more and spend time with the kids and keep up the house and and and and. They expect her to have a child but not too many or not too few or maybe any at all because it hurts the Earth. The demands are contradictory, so it shouldn’t surprise us that a lot of young women are going “Fine, **** you, society, I’ll do what I want”. It’s the sane response.
But large numbers of people saying “The hell with society, I’ll do whatever I want” has never ended well. Didn’t when it was men. Won’t when it’s women.
Why would I be digging? Women didn’t get the vote and such out of the clear blue sky. The formal legalities lagged behind a growing popular idealism. But society has a *lot* of inertia. As jWarrior said, we’re (socially) only halfway home on this issue.
And, as you mentioned, there’s a lot of men who said “Great, we’re equal! That means I can be irresponsible.” They’re not helping. (I can’t specifically get mad at them for taking women off a pedestal because it seems like everyone is ruder to everyone now. Feels more like a specific case of a general phenomenon).
The raid on the Michigan Militia by the feds today. It seems to fit the narrative of racist tea baggers,etc.
#208 trangbang68
Is this the raid you meant? If so, it looks as if the FBI has been raiding militias in three states, not just Michigan:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/03/28/arrests-alleged-militia-activity-midwest/
This is a bit O/T but maybe only a bit: looks as if at least one suicide bomber– possibly a Chechen– blew up a subway station in Moscow. “At least 41 people were killed in two explosions that hit the Moscow metro during rush hour Monday, local news agencies reported.”
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/03/29/blast-moscow-metro-kills/
Something tells me that Pooty-poot isn’t going to take this like a girlie-man.
Seems to me the ultimate “girlie man” would be one who gets married, has kids, and then turns gay… Interestingly, I know of a large number of these cases within the last couple of years. How does this help women, though, unless they just want to be “in control?” But then again, isn’t the modern left all about doing what you want, and no-one caring?
Then the perfect man should be one who marries the girl, has the kids, then turns gay while maintaining his financial and “emotional” care while living with his new “partner.” Maybe it’s not so odd I’ve seen a lot of this situation going around recently…
How is any of this good for women? I suspect it’s just another manifestation of “it’s all about me.” Modern women seem to want someone who will give them what they want and then leave them alone; it’s ironic they object to men they perceive to “take what they want, and then leave.”
Women, women, women… what do men want? Try this experiment. Ask a passel of men which female movie character over the last decades they found most attractive; character now, not actress. They will name Commander Ripley from the “Aliens” series of movies; or maybe better, give them a set of pictures or a list of names. Anyway men like strong women but (the devil is making me say this now) so many American women I meet think strong means ‘aggressive’. Not so, aggressive is just a plain ordinary, ongoing pain in the butt. What man doesn’t want a ‘consort battleship’ when the going gets tough?
Actually a nice experiment is to look at the “King Kong” series of movies for the Hollywood take on the evolution of men and women. My ‘take’ is that the genders do not seem to have a worth while partner in any of them.
Sara (Pal2Pal), I just wanted to send you my condolences for the loss of your friend. Grief is such a singular thing no matter how many people are around you or are there to offer comfort, your personal pain is yours alone.
——————–back to topic———————–
Some random links per discussion:
On marriage: New Study Says Marriage More Successful When Wife Is Smarter Than Husband
(Which begs the question to the married men here: Do you think your wife is smarter than you)?
On pretty men: Why handsome men make bad husbands
On bad boys: Women Like Bad Guys
That’s all I got!
PA Cat/209/210
Looks like Ruby Ridge and Waco all over again. In fact, was not Holder Reno’s #2 man?
Read through comments there on your link and something caught my eye:
over9000paul
Just wait. This will happen more, and it will be the Russians who arm the American people against the Fed. govt. This will cause internal conflicts, and when added to the implosion of the Middle East in the near future, everyone best be ready for the bombs to fall in 2015. In March. On the 12th. At 3:15
I am not sure where the poster got the date/time. But as for the sequence, it seems like he was reading the same script I got. Pooty, I think, won’t be at the helm at the time.
Speaking of Pooty… he will not take the Moscow attack in a girlie way. Some rocks will bounce.
The gender roles confusion is a temporary thing, like I said. Things will change in the next 10 years. The most important factor in relationships between men and women will be the mutual “I’ve got your back”. The current decadence will be out of fashion very fast when TSWHTF.
Delia/215
Definer smarter.
If the woman is able to forge a long lasting, successful marriage, then she is very smart, inherently. Seems like a no brainer to me.
Of course, smart men pick exactly that type of a smart woman.
I concede I haven’t been that smart. But I’ll do better the next time!
#216 twobyfour
I see the updated news item about the Moscow bombing identified both perps as female. Looks like terrorism has also become an equal-opportunity line of work.
Video from Moscow at Bluegrass Pundit.
We should support Moscow in combating Chechen terror.
We should support Israel in combating Palestinian terror.
We should support India in combating Pakistani sponsored terror.
We should trace all terror to support from Khomeinist Iran and Salafist Saudi Arabia.
We should recognize Baathist Syria as the sewer terror flows through.
We should link support for Moscow to support for Israel.
We should use every tool available to confront and destroy the regime in Tehran.
We should use every tool available to confront and destroy the regime in Damascus.
We should use every tool available to neutralize the nuclear threat from Pakistan.
Blogged under the title “The ‘We Shoulds’ of Terror.”
On 9/11, I was standing in line to get my boarding pass. Naturally, all flights were cancelled, grounded, and those in the air, landed immediately. A week later, when my associate and I were able to fly, we went back to the airport, secured our passes, and boarded when the flight was called. The plane was almost empty and 1st class was except for three of us.
The flight attendants proceeded to go to the coach section and bring to 1st class, several of the biggest, meanest, physical examples of men they could find. They were upgraded because they were not the girly-man, metrosexual, or the now typical example of manhood women seem to want.
At the time, I am 6′, 215, excellent physical condition, and 100% hetrosexual (still am). Needless to say, my associate and I laughed our asses off at the sight of the flight attendants bringing to 1st class, guys they would never give a second look at on the street or in a social setting. They fawned over them during the flight, bringing anything available, and treating them like all conquering heroes. After the flight landed, the golden boys returned to the neanderthal status they occupied before the flight. Completely ignored by the attendants.
Over the weekend, my wife and I watched the latest little girl thriller about the sensitive vampire who refused to drink her blood, etc., etc., etc. He and his “family” played vampire version of baseball. They didn’t like their more primitive vampire interlopers because they actually behaved like vampires. What a crock of tepid crap! I guess this is what the modern version of a woman wants in a man. If that is it, I guess if I were a young man today, a cave would be the appropriate place for me to live.
#220 Bart: Were you watching “Twilight”?
Yes, I supppose this article explains why American women are swooning over Edward Cullen. Quite frankly, I’m Team Jacob myself. Edward is the pale, metrosexual who is just too sensitive and tortured. Jacob if the tough, boy-next-door who really has the testosterone.
My girlfriends don’t understand this. But then again, I’ve only made it through “New Moon.”
After arguing with him over at the old Belmont Club here for several years, I have since become quite a fan of Whiskey on the various men’s sites around the internet.
Countries with an uneven distribution of income (more than 45 on the Gini Index) tend to have weaker states and are therefore much more violent. In other words alpha males rule the roost. In these societies women must seek protection from men and so they tend to pick alpha male-types and the betas get the leftovers–if they are so lucky to get anything.
In societies with a more even distribution of income, the state serves as a proxy alpha. The state does this by means of police forces, property rights, justice systems, and monogamy laws; the state assumes the role of a proxy-alpha. In these societies beta man have a better chance at being chosen by (pre-feminist) women, since these women, knowing they are protected by the proxy-alpha of the state, value more highly the breadwinning abilities of the beta man over the protective violence of the alpha male. The only link to the health care system is tangential, countries with a lower Gini score have universal health care.
Feminism confuses things a bit but let’s not get into that.
By the way the US has a Gini score of 45 and no universal health care so alphas certainly have a future here. In America the only alpha males who can currently exist are at the ends of society. In other words, you have dirt poor violent gangstas who reject the authority of the state; as well as super rich economically violent bankstas who by means of controlling and manipulating the state have enough power to protect themselves from the usual state sanctions against alpha behaviour. But as the US’ Gini index rises towards the Latin American norm these two extremes should grow, slowly squeezing out the beta middle.
For more details about all this I would recommend the blog “The Rawness” and his series on the myth of the middle class Alpha.
Also his post Why Black American Chicks Like Thugs is a classic on this subject:
http://therawness.com/why-black-american-chicks-like-thugs/
Sara, a comment on the wills you’ve collected and examined from a legal perspective – I think there’s a factor you haven’t taken into account in your explanation. It is this – those past wills that favor sons and grandsons over wives and daughters are rooted very strongly in the English common law tradition, while those that favor all children equally and which treat married spouses as equal owners in the estate of the deceased are following in the continental tradition, especially old French and Spanish law. Napoleonic Code, after all, mandates forced heirship which overrides a written will, something unheard of in English law, and also treats all children equally, which is a principle that runs all the way back to the ancient law of the Franks. (the legal opposite of primogeniture, where the oldest gets everything)
You find these influences in varying degrees in various parts of the US, depending on their background. For instance, Texas and many of the southwestern states have always been community property states. Texas has the purest form of this law in which all earnings by either partner during a marriage are the joint property of both, and thus at death a spouse can only legally dispose of 50% of the estate, the surviving spouse automatically being in ownership of the balance. This cannot be affected by a will because each partner only has legal ownership of their half of the estate. This is radically different than the inheritance system found in most northern states, and it represents the continuing influence of Spanish law as opposed to English.
Your comment, “They came from male dominated societies, especially the Catholic countries, and perhaps women didn’t have the freedom I saw in my own.” reminded me that most people are very surprised to find out the reality of the different systems of the day – the English system treated women far more harshly and gave them far lower status than any contemporary legal systems, and at least the Spanish and French legal systems going far back in time gave women far more property rights than the English system ever did. Wives and children were never treated as “chattels” under continental law, whereas this persisted in England until the beginning of the 20th century.
English inheritance law has as it’s fundamental principle the desire to keep families and bloodlines intact over the generations, and thus the law of primogeniture – inheritance was almost always mandated to an actual blood descendant, not to a spouse who was not of the bloodline and who could concievably remarry and carry the property out of the bloodline forever. It was the method by which the great Estates of England were created and maintained over the centuries. Thomas Jefferson, for one, found the English scheme of inheritance law to be odious, and worked to write as much of it out of the American Consitution as he could. You cannot bar descendants from selling land, for example, which is an essential part of the English law of the time which maintained the Estates – this is what led to a lot of land rich, cash poor Lords.
I would go so far as to say that when researching 19th century wills, you will find that the farther away the testator was from English influence, the better treatment the spouses and secondary children received. And the greatest equality of all will be found in those heavily Catholic dominated societies you mentioned.
Deeply flawed study, which everyone will immediately recognize. A friend of mine did his master’s thesis on a version of this topic, and he proved exactly what he knew he would:
People shy away from those who they find most physically attractive when considering with whom they would most like to have a relationship.
GREAT NATIONS RISE AND FALL
The people go from Bondage to Spiritual Faith
From Spiritual Faith to Great Courage
From Courage to Liberty
From Liberty to Abundance
From Abundance to Selfishness
From Selfishness to Complacency
From Complacency to Apathy
From Apathy to Dependency
From Dependency back again into Bondage
Lifeofthemind (13):
The assignment to this phenomenon of responsibility for the Fall of the Roman Empire without significant supporting evidence stretches credulity.
There is lots of historical evidence, see Edward Gibbon.
Tulsa Beacon article
Western ‘civilized’ women gravitate to men they believe they can milk for the maximum amount of whatever it is they have been programmed to want and then beat them senseless in divorce court.
A query asked cross section of sister’s, sister-in-law’s, Daughter-in-law’s and wives show that the man most admired by these women is Crixus from Spartacus (Manu Bennett) not exactly a girlie man.
The younger grand daughters and nieces pick (Justin Bieber) a boy for sure but not quite a girlie boy either.
This study is just a gay way of manipulating facts to promote a lifestyle change for girlie men.
wws (223), thanks for the interesting note regarding inheritance. In specific reference to England, note that primogeniture had some other interesting side effects in terms of pushing larger numbers of the upper class into military and clerical careers than would otherwise have happened.
The army of Louis XIV was the scourge of Europe and while the Sun King’s designs were in the end thwarted the reputation of the French military was that they were the best on the continent. Fifty years later, following the rout of the French columes at Rossbach, the victorious Prussians discovered in the abandoned French wagons and tents large quantities of powders and pomades and perfumes and the general observation was that the French army was apparently more at home to “girlie men” than to real soldiers.
The tents and wagons belonged to the officers – men drawn from the “very best” classes and wise in the ways of court intrigue but not so good at the skills that allowed the court an existence at all.
Move forward another fifty years and those of the “very best” class were on their way to the guillotine or exile and the once effete French army was on its way to a revival that made it the terror of Europe for the next two decades.
And so it goes. The roller coaster ride that never ends.
Okay, I’ll admit it. I relied upon Marion Morrison’s Wikipedia entry. Although he didn’t dodge the draft in a legal sense, I do think he should be considered a draft dodger in a moral sense.
Oh, don’t be an ass.
Girle looking men are also all the rage in East Asian boy bands at the moment. But does East Asia not qualify as “civilized” in this study?
This is an interesting article, but instead of thinking about the main point I’m a little vexed by the fixation on the outward appearance of masculinity.
My husband doesn’t have a particularly strong jaw. He likes to cook (he was in construction before falling into the white collared world — he likes having a “project” every day that he can get his hands on). He’s not crazy about sports (except anything involving cars — he loves cars. We joke about the “car porn” on the computer).
But emotionally I’d say he is one of the more stereotypically “masculine” guys I’ve met. He’s very protective. When it comes to the big things he makes up his mind and doesn’t waffle. He can be very black and white — he sneers at the idea of “no fault divorce”, as far as he is concerned if there is a divorce somebody had better have done something (and I love him for that).
I guess, to all you ‘internally masculine’ guys out there, some women will appreciate that your testosterone went where it needed to go…your heart! Your muscles you can build up with weights.
The entire health index thangie is bogus. Life expectancy has little to do with health. Health is the shape you are in while alive. You can hook up a child to machines and keep them alive for decades. Are they healthy?
Another fine example of junk science.
http://www.statemaster.com/graph/hea_hea_ind-health-index#definition
{snipped from the above}
“DEFINITION: Health Index by state. “The Healthiest State designation is awarded based on 21 factors chosen from the year 2005 edition of our annual reference book, Health Care State Rankings. These factors reflect access to health care providers, affordability of health care and a generally healthy population. ”
Pure junk. No basis in fact. A classic example of pounding stats into a mold. Studies such as these reflect the bias of those compiling the list.
There are no standards for “Health”. There should be and the Bureau of Standards should be the ones to define them.
This study is idiotic on the face of it, especially in its conclusions. Some years back, some anthropologists figured out that even in “primitive” societies, many women preferred to settle down with less virile men, but have flings with the more virile ones. There was one study in particular done of indigenous tribes in the Uruguay/Paraguay region that reflected this phenomenon. The Navajo and Hopi men worried about the ‘gay’ (as in effeminate) males who stayed behind when the rest of the men went hunting because they had found out that those ‘effeminate’ men were still entertaining the ladies, and I don’t mean by playing the piano in the cocktail lounge. I mean, “have penis will travel,” even if you’re making pottery with the girls and wearing a dress.
I’m astonished at the lack of cross-disciplinary knowledge by so many researchers. It stunts the value of their data if they can’t interpret using a larger perspective.
The other thing that should be glaringly obvious, and was probably covered above by a number of posters, is that the aculturation of these women doesn’t come from their societies being “healthier,” but rather from 1) the societies being more settled, and therefore ‘softer’ to begin with, and 2) the underlying ideology/social views that not only encourage socialized medicine, but are actually hostile to overt masculinity.
I also think that the statistical assumption that Americans are so much “less healthy” than, say, our western European counterparts, is a canard. Where did they get that stuff? Did they include the UK, which is both in poor health and a veritable poofters paradise? If they had, it would completely skew and invalidate the surveys notions.
LOTM:
Most of these problems are simply the result of veneers of learned behaviors that have been imposed over a fairly short time of two to three generations. These are mere affectations that can be easily scraped off if, to mix metaphors, the frog is given reason to jump out of the water.
Precisely. Thank you.
The secret of getting along with the ‘woo’man is to not waste any time trying to understand them, man should understand himself, then he will have confidence and strength. The ‘woo’man will be drawn to his confidence and strength.
#16 Marie Claude.
Thank you. Very good observations.
The problem with “researchers” is they spend too much time in a bubble, and are not as respectful of variables and anomalies as they pretend to be.
Sounds like the creators of the survey have fallen one to many times for a gay man. As a woman, I don’t want a girly man or a neanderthal. there is plenty in between without falling for that unattainable “girly” man. its not “do women prefer girly men” it’s “girly men don’t prefer woman”
Henrietta Arnow, writing about the settlement of the Tennessee river during the 18th century, commented that she had yet to find an example of a woman firing a gun, despite continual brushes with hostile Indians.
Grey Fox: that was because the women were busy loading those guns. Just another unfortunate example of a “scholar” showing her ignorance outside of her narrow field. I once had to correct the author of a lesson plan on the American Revolution, where she had written that one of the advantages the Americans had was that they had rifles. I had to explain to her that both sides had some men with rifles, etc., blah, blah. I made my point, and she corrected the lesson plan. I’m not a scholar, but merely a webmaster. It’s just that I have taken the time as a private individual and a citizen to try to understand the full breadth of history as best I can. Correcting scholars in my academic milieu is something I’ve had to do from time-to-time when they’ve wandered off of their chosen discipline path to write poorly-informed content.
Also on Arnow’s observations on the specific “patriarchal societies” she had chosen to critique: Women had a higher status in Norse and Celtic societies than her supposed research and observations imply. They were certainly held in higher esteem than say, the classical Greeks did their women (the Athenians. The very martial, and therefore violent Spartans, had much more liberated women). The Scoth-Irish also did not subjugate their women to any unusual degree, especially on the frontier. They weren’t that stupid.
Anderson Cooper a metrosexual? Um, no: he’s a homosexual. (Not that there’s anything wrong with that.) Or least so says a colleague who credibly claims to have made out with him. I thought this was common knowledge?
Overly intellectualized.
Elliot doesn’t sound feminine but I assure you I am a woman and Jude Law may be cute but Clive Owen wins every time. Clive is smarter, stronger, sexier, more clever,and frankly, a doctor.
Demographic collapse is part of women marrying at age 32 and having one designer eugenics baby at age 36, vs. Muslim or Mexican women having kids at age 19 or so, and having 5 total.
Whiskey: Muslims maybe, but not Mexicans, anymore, not even in Mexico. The Mexican and Mexican-American birthrates have declined dramatically, thereby largely giving the lie to the statistical projections making American white folks a ‘minority’ by 2050 (African American birthrates are stagnant, exacerbated by black women being the single largest group to avail themselves of abortions). In central Africa, Chritianity is growing almost exponentially, while Islam is ebbing in that region, thus neutralizing the ‘advantage’ of Muslim birthrates. It’s a major reason for the clashes and massacres in Nigeria, for instance.
And women stay as far away from whiners and men who make blanket statements like yours.
Get some counseling and get over yourself.
Bart.
Ref 9-11. My son was traveling a good deal in those days. He’s 6’5″, all conference tight end in high school, benched 300 in college and worked as a bouncer in a bar. That was for money. Bussed tables in a sorority. That was for the four food groups.
He was frequently upgraded.
Reminded me of something a friend said decades ago.
“When times are easy, the violin teachers get the girls.
When times are tough, the big, ugly guys get the girls.
After the big ugly guys fix things up so times are easy, the violin teachers get the girls and the big, ugly guys are standing around going, “huh?” “I thought….”
Shortly thereafter I found the truth of this, presuming it’s a matter of evolution.
If times are uncertain, the uterus tells the brain, “Find us somebody who can take care of business and we’ll worry about table manners later.”
Believing this, I managed to avoid three serious encounters which would have faded completely by the time we were ten miles up the road home.
The hero who saves the day had better have a high ratio of “yes, dear” if he’s going to finesse saving the day into some kind of relationship.
“Interesting conversation I had with my OB-GYN regarding ED drugs. Because of fat gain most men at 60 will have more estrogen floating through their system than most women past the age of 50. ED could much more easily or effectively be solved by exercise and weight loss as the fat just stores estrogen and diminishes testosterone.
So I don’t know that the problem is so much the result of birth control pill residue in our water system as our sedentary and overfed lifestyle.”
Unfortunately, chemical feminization is a reality. There’s a reason you’re seeing girls hit puberty at 11, 10 or even 9 years these days, and it’s because of the increasing amounts of estrogenic compounds and feminizing hormones being dumped into our environment. Here’s something for guys to think about: If you want to be “functional” as you get older, quit eating beef, chicken and dairy that’s been injected with growth hormones. And it’s very true that excess hormones excreted through bodily waste or dumped down the drain do not get filtered out or neutralized in our drinking water; same with tons of other prescription drugs. Finally, watch out for plastics with BPA. BPA is an estrogenic compound and can potentially be released from plastic bottles or food containers. Admittedly, there isn’t a ton definitive science on this stuff, but would you be willing to take that risk? I’ve already switched to eating organic meat and dairy and gotten rid of all BPA plastics in my house. The last thing I want is to grow man-boobs as I get older.
The only burning contemporary issue is: how do we prevent women from getting tattoos? This must be the worst thing to have rolled out of the bullsh_t 60s, and it Must Stop.
Now Dan, what have you got against the Tramp Stamp? LOL
and #249, those are referred to as “moobs”.
dan,
Truth in advertising.
Don’t you wish more people likely to cause you grief gave you warning?
If only all the haters and self haters walked around with a sign;
Treat with the courtesy of a Tarantula
Save yourself all of the Agita
OT,
I commented on the Times (UK) story about Human Rights Watch and the Nazi memorabilia enthusiast scandal.
http://tinyurl.com/y9ecngs
JTHC75
We have been opposing to the hormonal meat from the US in EU, despites american lobbies, final agreements were never reached, I’m glad that we still can keep our “good” sense about that, but they got us with the Montsanto GMO products, still France, like Asterix in the last village, resist to them too, but not Germany that growes insipid big popatoes, and that replace the traditional Kartofeln ! not sure for the corn, some do, some not ! at least, we don’t it it !
http://worldtradelaw.typepad.com/ielpblog/2009/05/is-the-beef-hormones-dispute-settled.html
JTHC75
We have been opposing to the hormonal meat from the US in EU, despites american lobbies, final agreements were never reached, I’m glad that we still can keep our “good” sense about that, but they got us with the Montsanto GMO products, still France, like Asterix in the last village, resists to them, but not Germany that growes insipid big potatoes, that replace the traditional Kartofeln ! not sure for corn, some grow it, some not ! at least, we don’t eat it, but our cows !
Don Rodrigo, I appreciate your common sense and senseful erudition too, plus, love your nic
#250 – Tattoos aren’t a sixties thing. Try the ’90s thru the present.
The only people I knew in my generation who had tattoos were military guys honoring their service, Navy anchor, etc.
I just hope I live long enough to see all these twenty-somethings who are defacing their bodies with such ugliness get old and wrinkled and saggy. Imagine how ugly those tats will really look then.
I cooked up some Buffalo Burgers the other night for guests, my spouse and myself. No hormones and Extra Tasty! A much leaner meat than cow as well.
For those who’ve never tried it, you should!
I am disappointed at the apparent acceptance of the dogmas surrounding this study. Namely Evolutionary psychology. There seems to be no question.
The study itself was derived from Evolutionary presuppositions, I’m sure, but despite this it does not necessarily follow that the results have anything to do with Evolution. The results of the study are indeed science, but the interpretive application is pure dogma. Also, note, the fact that the study could in no way, no matter what results it showed, have falsified Evolution show that Evolution is not a necessary presupposition to have in order to understand the data. That is just a matter of course, since mainstream science has so badly veered.
The study seems to speak of only a selecting behavior (testable), which is not Evolution (untestable). The only real question the study exposes is if the selection is Artificial or Natural. I will not speculate on it, since I do not know how this (my first exclamation) is received in itself.
Evolution is an increase in genetic information, which has yet to be observed. It is dogmatically accepted that it does happen based on the misinterpretation of the geologic record. Where is the same credulity put forth against Global Warming concerning the veracity of the science involved that is notable in the surroundings of pajamasmedia and itself?
Are you only concerned about being taxed? Is that the only motivation for debunking Global Warming? Do you not understand that Evolution is a belief, and is being established as a covert religion? Indeed, it is in the open. Ignorance. Can anyone connect the dots of what it means for Religious Freedom when the State deems that homeschooling curriculum is unacceptable??? Why are you accepting Evolution? Which calls Jesus Christ a liar, by the way?
Dan @ 250:
“The only burning contemporary issue is: how do we prevent women from getting tattoos? This must be the worst thing to have rolled out of the bullsh_t 60s, and it Must Stop.”
I hate it when I see an originally attractive young woman desecrate her body with tattoos and piercing. The only thing that makes it worse is when she lights up a cigarette.
Why do young women want to look like prostitutes? It used to be that one could easily spot a prostitute because she was sporting a tattoo (not any more!).
My brother and I are currently gnashing our teeth because my niece (his daughter) has allowed herself to become extremely obese and covered herself with insipid tattoos. My niece ***was*** a very attractive girl and primed to do something with her life. Prior to entering university, she went through a government funded intern program at a national lab to become a forensic scientist and originally intended to get a degree in the subject (she’s extremely bright). Unfortunately after entering the University of California, she found the subject material too challenging and opted instead to get a B.A. in Feminist Studies. My brother had already promised to cover her university expenses but this was on the assumption that she’d get a useful degree. I would argue that a B.A. in Feminist Studies is worse than having no degree at all, i.e. a personnel manager would see the garbage degree on her resume, correctly assume she had no common sense and opt to hire the other girl with only a High School diploma. My brother (against his better judgement) squandered thousands of dollars on this dog manure degree. It was after my niece flushed her potential career down the toilet that she began to fatten up and started the tattoo stupidity.
I guess this was a reaction to having everything handed to her on a silver tray.
My brother loved his daughter too much and she returned his love through self destruction.
Re 243,
They loaded, but did not fire the guns – strict gender roles. Henrietta Arnow describes quite graphically one night attack and the various things different people did during the attack, including loading guns. 12 year old boys fired guns, their mothers loaded, if my memory serves me right.
The observations regarding the Norse are mine, sir, though I think I read something once that pointed it out. They may have had a high status, but they did not fight except when the men refused to do so (neglecting their duties). They were also not targeted in intra-Norse feuding, though they might be enslaved during raids. Read Sagas of Icelanders, and you will see what I mean.
As for the Scotch-Irish, they did have strict divisions between male and female work, which has been remarked on by more than one historian. That does not mean that they treated women badly, merely that they had a strict delinations between male and female roles.
I understand that academics are viewed with a great deal of suspicion here, but please don’t automatically assume that they don’t know what they are talking about.
Eggplant
eating too much looks like an addiction to drugs, you loose your brain control too
Brain scans of rats that compulsively ate junk food showed cerebral activity similar to that in drug addicts. http://bit.ly/9EH1bK
if that helps to understand your niece
Locarno’s thesis is that women used to be treated as children, are now expected to be adults, but are still taught childish ways, with much dysfunction resulting.
I think he’s partially right. He’s right about the dysfunction stemming from a mismatch in what is taught and what is required, but it didn’t arise quite that way.
Not many generations ago, women and men were expected to show a good deal of maturity by their early 20′s. And society wasn’t shy about enforcing those expectations. The definition of mature behavior for a man and a woman might have had some, ahem, nuanced differences, and the sort of childish behavior each sex was allowed to occasionally (and politely) indulge in differed, but few people were allowed to be functionally immature very long past puberty.
Today, immaturity is encouraged. The public school system, the Universities, and popular culture, try very hard to teach young women to be childish. Society does it’s damndest not to pass judgement. Reality though, being very un-PC, has no problem smacking a sweet young thing upside the head with consequences. So, our 20-something heroine is trying to adapt based on that feedback, but society has failed to give her functional training in civilization, so it’s awful hard for her.
So the internal conflict is exactly what Locarno said, but there’s a significant difference: his thesis says this is a temporary transition phase, and in time will get better. But if it’s the way I think, we’re headed in the wrong direction and it will get worse if we don’t fix something.
PS: Young men have their own challenges and have been failed by society in different ways.
I forget where I read it, but someone on the Internets wanted to make sure 20-somethings realized that in 40 years, a tattoo across the lower back would be known as “an old lady tatooo”.
Limpet6: Marion Morrison, aka John Wayne, tried very hard to enter the armed forces in WWII, but was unable to do so, due to age and his status as a movie star, among other reasons. He was devastated by not being allowed to serve, something which stayed with him his whole life. In short, he was not a shirker nor a draft dodger.
Sara and Beth – RE: “Where have all the studly men gone?” They’re still around, just don’t look for them in the movies. And there is a reason that the Hollywood men of days gone by seemed more real and masculine; most of them had lived life before being in the movies, survived the Great Depression and WWII, and otherwise lived outside of the fantasy world of Hollywood. Charles Bronson – tailgunnner in a B-29 bomber over Japan in WWII; Lee Marvin – US Marine combat vet of Saipan; Jimmy Stewart – USAAF heavy bomber pilot-in-command, squadron leader in numerous combat missions over Germany, retired as Brigadier General USAFR; Clark Gable – waist gunner, B-17 crewman over ETO in combat, WWII; Richard Todd – British paratrooper and Normandy veteran; Glenn Ford – USMC and USN veteran of WWII, Vietnam; Sterling Hayden – USMC and OSS veteran, and so on…. It wasn’t only military service that made these men exemplary models of maleness they knew who they were and what they were not.
RE: The men of Band of Brothers. Major Richard Winters is one of my heroes. You won’t find a better man or better American than that.
Goes to show that you can’t always tell a book by its cover; Winters was a devout Chrisitian who never so much as swore, but a hero and a proven leader. He is also about as fine a gentleman as you’ll ever meet. That goes for his comrades in the airborne, E Co. 506th PIR, 101st A/B and all of the other fine men of that generation. That’s what manhood looks like, not pretty boy Brad Pitt…
GeorgiaBoy61 @ 264:
“Major Richard Winters is one of my heroes. You won’t find a better man or better American than that.”
He’s one of my heros as well. Richard Winters is on the same pedestal with King Leonidas and Buzz Aldrin.
If someone’s taking nominations, I’m offering Ernest Shackleton and Robert Rogers.
261 Grey Fox:
Thank you for the clarification, I’m glad Ms. Arnow knew the women loaded. My answer to your points about gender roles is: So?
I have no use for “Presentism,” the habit of modern observers with ideological axes to grind to expect gender roles of past times to match the “enlightened” views of only some people in modern times. The fact that women loaded meant that they participated in the combat — which should not be hard to understand. It also means they knew how to handle guns, should they need to. They didn’t need to, as they had men and boys to do so. In an era of single shot rifles and muskets that could only fire two rounds per minute, this division of labor made perfectly good sense. At the time it also made the most sense — in the context of the mores and traditions of the times — for the men to be the principal users of firearms, which is why it made sense for the 12-year old boy to be firing rather than loading — no “presentism” for me. The women in that raid operated no different than an artillery crew. As for 18th-century American artillery crews, they often had an “artillery wife” attached to a battery. These were known as the “Molly Pitchers.” Remember them? It is usually thought that “Molly Pitcher” was one individual, but actually there were a number of them; two fought at Monmouth. While they were tasked to refill a water bucket for both sponging the ramrod and for drinking, they would pitch in as a full-fledged artilleryman when one of the crew was incapacitated.
As for this forum’s “suspicion of academics,” I’m speaking from personal, intimate experience, and while Ms. Arnow is the one in this case who researched an original source about a particular raid, I would not have colored my observation of the division of combat labor the way she did because of her ideological blinders.
KevinButterfield/259
Just a quip…
Evolution is an increase in genetic information, which has yet to be observed.
Not necessarily. Change in genetic information. May be up/down. Point in case is the human chromosome count of 46 as opposed to primate 48. Yea, the 2 and 3 are spliced together, so it is not really a decrease, just … a compactization?
I am not Darwinist. At all. The survival of the fittest is a crappy concept, based on a tautology and thus unscientific as it can’t be falsified. But if you want to point neo/Darwinism errs, don’t try to use straw men.
For instance, it is obvious that the genetic info has been increased at some point by cells incorporating (or being modified that way) imports. In fact, we are not just humans, we are symbiotic organisms that comprise of our human substrate that is a host of all sorts of critters (mostly monocellular but as multicelluar). It is an evolution of sorts. Just not the “evolution”.
Human social interaction can be conceived of as an evolution of sorts. It is just… it is not linear progression from coarse to more refined. Only sometimes. It conforms to a cycle that is very similar to one mentioned up thread. That type of cycle has a biological equivalent in predator/prey relationship. One can take a formula that defines one and apply it to the other and get a fit, if we abstract far enough. So, we end up with evolution/devolution pattern. These cycles work on a small scale (a couple of ~ 200-300y) and large scale (several Ky). Whenever we get too “uppity” we set ourselves for a fall. It is usually a small babel tower that we build, so the fall is not that dramatic. But the larger pattern (Ky), can be very dramatic. And sometimes, just sh!t happens.
Between 70Kya and 60Kya, there was a warm period in the last glacial. It spanned some 5Ky. It is likely that the release of the ice grip resulted in a human communities released from a sole survival predicament. That is possibly why you find textiles (imprint on pottery that was produced by using a cloth “mold”) in Dolni Vestonice (Czech) cca 25Kya, that are as sophisticated in their weave pattern as modern textiles. It is obvious that these patterns were not invented overnight and had some legacy. Perhaps a remnant from the better times, before the ice cover erased again all the traces of human habitation and civilization of the warm period, from which no more than a couple of thousand souls survived.
I acknowledge, though, that this dating is rather tenuous and rather tentative. Too many fairly detailed accounts of very destructive series of upheavals that overturned order of things, to be just figments of overactive imagination. Most of what is taught in schools about human history and prehistory are contrived reconstructions of “bowing to porcelain god” type.
Kevin 222: “In societies with a more even distribution of income, the state serves as a proxy alpha.”
We can trust the alpha state with our labored-for property – right?
“It had long been realized that the only secure basis for oligarchy is collectivism. Wealth and privilege are most easily defended when they are possessed jointly. The so-called “abolition of private property” (Communist Manifesto)… meant in effect the concentration of property in far fewer hands than before… In the years following the Revolution it (The Socialist Party of Oceania) was able to step into this commanding position almost un-opposed because the whole process was represented as an act of collectivization… It had always been assumed that if the Capitalist Class were expropriated Socialism must follow; and unquestionably the Capitalists had been expropriated. Factories, mines, land, houses, transport, everything had been taken away from them; and since these things were no longer private property it followed that they must be public poperty. Ingsoc (Socialist Principles of Oceania), which grew out of the earlier Socialist movement and inherited its phraseology, has in fact carried out the main item in the Socialist program with the result; foreseen and intended beforehand, that economic inequality has been made permanent.” George Orwell – 1984
And we can trust the alpha state with our life and liberty – right?
“The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others… We are different from all the oligarchies of the past in that we know what we’re doing… Power is not a means, it is an end… The object of power is power… Always there will be the intoxication of power… We are the priests of power… Power is power over human beings, over the body; but above all over the mind… The real power; the power we have to fight for night and day is not power over things but over men. How does one man assert his power over another… by making him suffer… Power is in inflicting pain and humiliation. Power is in tearing human minds to pieces and putting them together again in new shapes of your own choosing… We shall crush you down to the point from which there is no coming back… Never again will you be capable of ordinary human feeling; everything will be dead inside you… You will be hollow. We shall squeeze you empty and then we shall fill you with ourselves.” George Orwell – 1984
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5911p_famine-genocide-in-soviet-ukraine
225. Habu
WTF?
Just thought after 200+ comments on girlie men it might be fun.
Fun? There’s no fun in girlie men.
That’s my point yet we’re now up to 268 comments.
So?
Well, I hope we can get as spirited over the coming microwave oven vs. the convection oven dialogue….that’ll be a corker !
You’re an idiot! Iron skillets man, iron skillets.
Down with the alpha state!
Actually, the aplha is just whatever ideology is current–in the fashion. So, in fact, the alphas may be omegas that found the way to game the system. Human societies don’t have the rigid biologically encoded stratification that is prevalent in other mammal social species. It is a curse and blessing at the same time.
GeorgiaBoy61:
Add Audie Murphy to your list too. Wasn’t he the most decorated man of WWII? And I doubt he would be considered the studly type at only 5’5″ yet he was manly enough to earn the Medal of Honor.
71. wretchard:
“Not so long ago manhood was a kind of doom; an fate that you had to fulfill. There were certain things a man had to do and for those upon whom the fate fell you simply hoped to acquit yourself well when the time came.
“You never knew what form the challenge would take. But on the day you would be certain that this was the one you could not walk away from. It was the Elephant and it came in many forms. … All through the 40s and the 50s, when one would have expected things to be at their most knuckle-dragging, manliness was really all about facing up to life.”
Bingo. Wretchard has identified a crucial key.
With women, it’s all about safety, whether the behavior may be attributed to power lust, material self-gratification, whatever. (I suspect this is hard-wired, arguments on evolution notwithstanding.)
With this woman, it’s whether I’m with a stand-up guy. And that doesn’t include money or status, to me (my Faramir and I don’t have two nickels to rub together, most times, due to a deplorable lack of a money common-sense gene in both of us).
“Stand-up” is a term arrived at by:
A) Acknowledging inherent differences between the sexes;
B) Acknowledging each is crucial to the success/happiness of the other;
C) As such, embracing the symbiosis, warts and all;
D) Making the best effort at understanding/forgiving/removing said warts; and
E) Knowing, as deep down as it goes, that, woman or man, s/he will have your back no matter what. (This cannot be achieved in serial sexuality.)(In fact, when the above factors exist, one only WANTS intimacy with the Other.)
It all adds up to stepping up to whatever plate you’re on. And when a man and woman both step up, it’s the biggest turn-on there is. (Thinks me, anyway.)
Habu, crockpot is my friend. Dump, stew, eat!
Then maybe a peace of cake, or easy as pie.
Eowyn, do you have an unmarried twin sister?
275. twobyfour, alas, no, but many thanks for the compliment
I’ve gotta say, I do feel for those twisted around by feminism/post-modernism. Struggled with that myself throughout the last couple of decades.
Recovering now
Changing The Subject To something Meaningful
Eowyn:
Perfect!
Safety is first and foremost and it isn’t just physical safety, it is knowing you are safe to reveal yourself entirely to another without fear.
George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams:
Down with the alpha state and up with the alpha male!
Karl Marx:
Down with the alpha male (middle class) and up with the beta male (proletariat class), and the alpha state!
The main problem I have with feminists over abortion is that they feel they have an ABSOLUTE right over their own bodies, regardless of social consequences.
I am in agreement up to the point where feminists apply a total disregard for how their actions affect the rest of society. And yes, you could say it is a private matter, but when it is legalized, the truth would come out, ideally.
So I think that once there is a concession that women considering abortion be responsible for the feelings of others as well as society, we could be on the road to some reconciliation.
Two from the Civil War for me:
Joshua Chamberlain and Clara Barton
Amazing that no one has made a movie about her.
“No Name on the Bullet” is a biography of Audie Murphy that I recall (I read it about 15 years ago) as being very good. FWIW, he may have *looked* mom-and-apple-pie, but he was, er, to put it delicately, quite randy. That part did not make it into “To Hell and Back.”
P.S. It comes as no surprise that Habu would favor cookware that can also double as a blunt weapon.
twobyfour, I do not see how you are not presupposing your outcomes. Primative cells incorporating and modifying the necessary agonists and antagonists, whatever biological necessities for life, is make-believe. Wishful thinking. It is contrived (legitimately following from a materialist worldview, I admit) in order to keep the story alive without evidence, because the real story is actually more fantastic and abrupt. We are created in God’s image, (animals), etc, etc. How is that axiom any more less stable than the one that says nature is all there is? Because it is based on the Bible? What if it’s true? I don’t know of any evidence that conclusively disputes the Bible…
Doesn’t believing in Evolution make oneself a master-of-the-universe a little too easily?
Okay, okay, maybe you’re not saying Nature is all there is, but you are dealing with a worldview that says God is irrelevant in a major way. One that inevitably says all things are a product of their environment – now, under God I would allow that (in a heavenly philosophical way), but without God the Father it is an axiom that makes murderers into victims. The point is that even if we turn out to be victims (which I have a suspicion of) it is beyond our present scope to know fully, or to give that outcome any justice. Since, presupposing evolution says, not so, and puts such judgment before men it takes judgment away from God. Wrongly. If you say, I believe in Evolution and God, it is surely a just-so statement, not backed up by reasoning. Surely, God would have the final knowledge about our victimhood. (I’m sure you see, and if not, note, I do not debate the existence of God, obviously, and it is why my logic works.)
The closeness, yet impossible material bridge, between primates and man speaks of the separation God has put between the animals and men (that marks our accountability, uniqueness – evidence for a conscience), and it speaks of the biological and tertiary matrix God has used to create, (which would be expected if the Bible’s account is true). Both (Biblical) concepts adequately touch, where it is necessary, on giving closure to specific equivalence (man’s sameness with creatures and matter)and primary-ness (man’s impossibly exalted position above the animals) that is observed in Nature, but not observably remedied by nature. Isn’t that rather intriguing circumstantial evidence, considering that the Bible is so… old?!
(Please note, I do not say you do not have the Father. You shouldn’t imply that from what I wrote. I’m just not giving any credit to Evolution (and I don’t have to), and indeed, I find that it contradicts a certain judgment. That judgment of who is really a victim.)
278. Sara (Pal2Pal): “[I]t is knowing you are safe to reveal yourself entirely to another without fear.”
You got it, my friend — sums it up very nicely.
Getting to that point is pretty damned hard for most people, though. We’re all slaves to our personal fears/insecurities unless we make a conscious effort to name them, face them and banish them forever. Men and women alike go through life being so defensive that real connection — and trust — is near impossible.
Me and Faramir have some pretty good dustups, sometimes. (“I am a shieldmaiden, and my hand is ungentle,” said the original Eowyn, while my Faramir puts up with a lot of knee-jerk irrationality in the heat of arguments with me).
But we’ve learned that, as soon as we cool down, to apologize to each other, regardless of who is in the wrong. (Usually me, *sigh*, but not always.) And then we go forward.
Having fun together has to be pretty high on the priority list, too. You’ve gotta get pretty creative with that on OUR budget, but somehow it makes life so much sweeter.
************************************
It’s my belief the whole feminist movement was a long time coming. As nutrition/longer life spans improved, and as the standard of living improved to the point that taking care of home and children no longer ate up an entire woman’s life, she began to flex intellectual muscles long dormant, and she grew envious of men’s freedom to indulge in daily activities that were much more interesting than stuffing food in voracious mouths and changing dirty nappies. Restless women’s early attempts to share in traditionally male activities (medicine, science, literature, etc.) required Herculean perseverance.
But the inevitable rock-and-hard-place crash eventually came between child-rearing and intellectual freedom, and we’re still trying to figure it out.
I think I meant something like terrestrial instead of tertiary in my above post.
And, hmm, I don’t know if I said that middle part as well as I should have. Maybe, it can be understood more generally like this, the belief in Evolution makes judgment relative. Now, if you are an evolutionist I don’t know if you can see how I failed to convey my idea about God’s judgment, but if you are a Bible believing Christian perhaps one could.) I don’t know, but the point is that Evolution very much seems to say ‘everyone is right’. Maybe, that is a philosophically safe vantage point, but how can anything ever get done, and if you could govern such a world, what do you do with the religious fundamentalists? The voiceless when people wish to do them harm? The infirm, likewise?
Sounds like the ultimate consequence of giving women the vote. They don’t want men, they want women with penises.
286. jsallison — “Giving” women the vote?
I contend that the feminist movement was inevitable — and that it is still in its infancy.
It could be that it was a case of “be careful what you wish for,” but again, it’s still … ahem … evolving.
Where do these Girlie Men come from?
Last year my Granddaughter invited me to attend a Veterans Day Celebration presented by the students at her elementary school. About 30 grizzly old veterans showed up and we had a great time while the students read poetry to us and sang the National Anthem and served us coffee and cake.
While there I couldn’t help but notice that all the teachers assembled in the auditorium with their little urchins were all women. There was not one male teacher among them. Not one. The superintendent and principal were also women. The only man I saw in the time I was there was a janitor.
Several years ago, I sold my house and moved into a small bungalow in a neighborhood that was starting to come back, but still had areas that weren’t all that safe. One night, a very mangy looking drunk began to bang first on my front door and then on the big picture window in my living room. I had no weapons and I was frightened that he would break that window and come in.
I happened to be on the phone with my Mother at the time and she heard the noise and I told her that if she heard me scream to call the police. I was saying something about having nothing to defend myself.
She calmly told me to go to my kitchen and toolbox and get a can of red pepper, my cast iron frying pan, and a claw hammer. I did and felt much better.
Now I keep red pepper next to my bed and a can in the console in my car. I figure a face full of red pepper will give me time to get away. Maybe.
Add David Niven to the list as being not a pretty boy who did his service well. He had graduated from Sandhurst and went back to serve in the Commandos during WW-II. It cost him too when the twerps at HRH’s Inland Revenue charged him for all the money he earned while in Hollywood.
Was John Wayne a fraud and a hypocrite? No he was not. Did Republic Pictures do wrong by him and did he fail to measure up to his own standard? He said so himself.
Sara: To make red pepper even more effective for self defense, get an egg, tap out one end, empty it, rinse it out, let it dry, fill it with red pepper, and seal up the hole. You now have a portable fistful of red pepper at the ready – just crush in your hand and toss it in their face.
KevinButterfield,
I think you misread my post.
But I’ll bite.
Riddle me this:
The Sumerian mythology essentially contains all the Genesis components before Abraham, but in more detailed form. Seems that Abram brought from Ur the edifice and trimmed here and there to suit ears in the place of his destination. I use the term mythology in the sense of “ancient stories containing information of unknown historical validity”.
It is just a statement of fact. I don’t qualify it in any particular way.
My personal belief aside, I am an agnostic. What it means is that it is my conviction that we can’t decide the question of existence of God (or a concept of that nature) by methods that are used for science. We can barely model the physics that are available to our sensory space (extended tools inclusive), let alone wax metaphysics with these tools. Which may translate easily that for instance the Big Bang is for me nothing but a fairy tale, skipping the darkwing duck tape holding together galaxies (matter so dark that we are unable to detect it)–if you look for modern epicycles that’s a mighty one.
There seems to be an import in cellular structures from other cellular structures. That is a statement of fact. How it got there I haven’t a faintest and don’t presume anything. That is another statement of fact. Nor do I venture to postulate how the darn human chromosomes 2 and 3 got spliced together without the result in termination of the monstrosity–usually these types of change do not bode well for the species long term prospects.
I accept tentative models… as tentative. The moment an anomaly pops up, the model has to go. It is no longer valid unless it is able to accommodate the anomaly without contortions and epicycles. If a theory makes a prediction or a series of predictions and something crops up that is 180 degrees from the prediction set, I have no trepidations about tossing the model into a garbage bin. It is somewhat a life full of uncertainties, but I think it is more honest that way.
Back to bible. If a Sumerian story that predates bible has a bit of an information that contradicts bible, I have to go with Sumerians. Unless someone jumps ad libitum through history using some sort of temporal control contraption to rearrange things for the gaudium of post-modern audience, causality is causality.
Whether I believe in God or not is my personal business and does not influence the above.
I don’t buy your argument that can be summed up as: “God did it and that is all there to know”.
In fact, I adamantly reject it. Why? God told me: “Be inquisitive, there is a lot to learn”. I agreed he has a point.
There.
288. Rock: “[A]ll the teachers assembled in the auditorium with their little urchins were all women.”
If cognitive discoveries are to be believed (and I do believe them), the ability to successfully impart knowledge involves an equal facility with navigating emotional states, and this has historically been an innate feature, and the near exclusive province, of women.
But loving single dads everywhere have proven this dual ability can be successfully learned. In my personal experience, most of the male teachers I’ve encountered are pretty stand-up guys, if not fitting the “masculine” stereotype.
P.S. As a vet myself, one of the proudest moments of my life was attending my own daughter’s school celebration for us
*******************************
289. Sara (Pal2Pal): “I had no weapons …”
Having experienced a situation similar to yours back in the day, I immediately enrolled in a karate class, purchased a handgun (small .38), underwent firearms training and vowed always to keep one antenna out wherever I was (especially at home) for danger.
Today, the lessons in hand-to-hand remain nearly instinctive, and the Saturday Night Special has graduated to a certain Mr. Mossberg, whose explosive power will reduce an assailant to vapor. (Along with the entire front door, but door vs. life …)
Paranoid? Perhaps. But I like the peace of mind and the freedom never to fear any attack.
I also like the ingenious remedies mentioned by your mother and Locarno; and I say, if they feel more natural, go for it — whatever works!
After reading this article and some of the comments, I can unequivocally say “I’d buy that for a quarter”.
twobyfour, it is true that a lot of the evidence that bodes well for the veracity of the Bible is circumstantial. That it is still clung to and studied as relevant to this day is only circumstantial. That millions of people testify to the incorruptible goodness of the message, the appropriateness of Jesus Christ, also circumstantial. Some people may say that this is only God’s preferred style?
Does the Bible not stand apart in reputation from ancient Sumerian texts? Does the Bible offer a more believable and cogent uncontradictory narrative than other ancient religions, that supposedly pre-date it? According to the Bible men were dispersed shortly after the Flood, at Babel. Wouldn’t this predict that there would be other ancient stories, muddled, vague, fragmented, suspicious reformulations found from the ancient world? Yet, the Bible standing alone among them as the obvious source, because we still have it. That is what you’d expect if the Bible were true. Though, still circumstantial.
Obviously, I simply do not doubt that the Bible is true, but I didn’t begin that way. Let everything be true, and whatever remains is most true, I thought. At this stage I am bold, and say the Bible is absolutely true. I am faithful.
KevinButterfield:
Did you make the point you set out to make? Re: Flood – there are flood stories in almost every culture, the Old Testament account being just one of them. Taken as historical reference of the Israelites, certainly the OT is more truth than circumstantial given the archaeological discoveries of the last couple of centuries. Is it a condensed written record of the much older oral record of a people and their relationship to God, yes, but that doesn’t make it circumstantial when new discoveries all the time show there is evidence to support the stories. I’m talking OT here, not NT.
I forget where I saw it, but I recall reading a paper noting that, through genetic analysis, the authors claim to have found that 60% of all women have bred but only something like 45% of all men. Kinda makes it hard to refute ol’ Whiskey.
Rock, I was taught by women almost exclusively: the Sisters of St. Joseph. Navy SEALS have nothing on the average nun as far as toughness goes…
I find this whole thread amusing. Why can’t the manly man adopt, as I have, protective coloration? I’m 5’11′, 275 lbs., and in the words of John Mellancamp, I ain’t good lookin’ but I ain’t shy. At age 51, I’m a large, hulking guy who still benches 425 lbs. (1 rep, and tendonitis be damned!) and leg presses 1,080 lbs. (4 reps); I’m not someone that most would trifle with. I also own a black velvet sport coat, Cole Haan loafers, Barneys button-down shirts (bought at their warehouse sale for cheap money), have actually enjoyed a mani-pedi and have no issue with walking downtown for coffee with my girlfriend’s pink Coach collared and leashed Bichon Frise! You gotta problem with that, punk?
Said girlfriend, who I met at the gym, is Beauty to my Beast: she’s 48, looks like a retired model, 5’9″, 125 lbs., competed on her college swim team (with the shoulders to prove it) while working part time to put herself through nursing school. Because she’s a clothes horse, which is easy when you’re a size 2, I find myself dressing somewhat more elegantly than I would otherwise. She works with spinal cord injury patients, has no problem hanging with me for a full weight workout, can wire her own wall sconces and replace the wax toilet ring. And she’s astute enough to know that men’s fashion doesn’t cater to guys with my dimensions and has things tailor made for me as gifts. Does any of this diminish my manhood, or her womanliness?
The clothes and the gelled hair don’t change my penchant for testosterone-fueled excess like waving my “Obama Lied, Our Future Died” sign in Ed Markey’s face at a Martha Coakley event or telling the 20-something ‘roid monekys to lift something or get the f%ck off the bench. Each gym has it’s pecking order, and my girl admits that it’s kind of a turn on to see the deference shown to me, a guy 20-30 years older, strictly on physical merit.
That dichotomy is what most women can’t come to grips with. The well-dressed gorilla who can discuss wine, politics and clothes as well as football and mixed martial arts is outside their experience. I’m just glad that, after 15 years of marriage to the wrong woman, I found who, to paraphrase Heinlein, is happy to be the womanly woman to a manly man.
PJM’s edit tool is obviously a work in progress!
For those not political, Ed Markey is my Congress-tool.
KevinButterfield,
The Summerian sources are far less muddled than the rough outline presented in the initial sequences of Bible. Many things are explained in detail (one may say it is something like 10 to 1 resolution in comparison to the biblical narrative). For instance, there is a reference to “god’s day” in the scripture (would have to look it up, quite past Genesis) and in the Hebrew original the term actually means period rather than day in our sense, from sundown to sundown. In the Sumerian sources, it is defined explicitly (called “shar”) and it has 3600 solar years. There is a very detailed description of creation of a.da.mu, the adam, including the reason for it. The rib as a base for Eve is actually a play on words in Summerian sources (the term for a rib and bone marrow is the same, and interpretation depends on the context; bone marrow may mean stem cells, possibly). And so on. No doubt in my mind that Abram brought the concise version with him from Ur and that has become the core of the Judaic belief system. At the time, people weren’t that sophisticated and of limited knowledge, so simplified version may have been easier to propagate.
As for Jewish history though, Bible is quite accurate. Any perceived inaccuracies are mostly due to modern (e.g last 2000+ years) misinterpretations.
This thread has exhausted me as I’m sure it has others, so I will conclude with this observation:
No matter how much is said, the men will still talk about how buff they are and how much they can bench press or whatever as if that is the most important trait and the women will continue to talk about how honor, integrity, respect, steadfastness are important and ne’r the twain shall meet.
For men the tension is simply that sexual stimulation, which is what attractiveness, i.e. what men and women want, is 90% physical and 10% mental, and for women those figures are reversed.
Sara (Pal2Pal), what was his point…
Oh yea, that the evolutionary psychology is… bah humbug. I tend to agree that is it largely tangential. Of course, he supported that notion with somewhat, shall we say, myopic buttress.
Sara 296.,
I agree. My point was sort of to show the strength in the circumstantial alone. It is a rhetorical trick. Not the Obama kind, though. The problem with harking to any archaeological evidence is that it will never be enough to convince a skeptical person, and there will always be secular sources that seem to suggest otherwise. There are ways to confirm what is solid in archaeology and what is speculated, like where a town existed compared to the duration of a pharaoh’s reign, but most skeptics will be dogmatic about speculation, nevertheless, and most people do not know about ancient history enough to argue (myself included).
twobyfour, I don’t mean to one-up you or anything, but isn’t there something contradictive in your acknowledgment of stem cells in ancient lore, and your agnosticism? If you start talking about the aliens everyone will think you are kooky.
I guess that for me, I just finally took a stand for my trust in Jesus. When I started to look at religion on my own (oh, yes it was taught to me first) I considered the Evolution question on my own, as well. I really did, but one think I would not compromise on being true was that Jesus was the Son of God (there is no reason to call a man a liar if He is not, do you understand?) Jesus says He is something and all an honest person can do is investigate. And, sorry, I suppose I am saying you’re dishonest if you’ve ever heard Jesus and decided it wasn’t the truth. Maybe, you could say, Not for me, but surely you’d never say, A liar. So, if you call Him a liar, your dishonest (this is an axiom, to me), and if you said, Not for me, you’re not really looking for truth, because His words are truth, and light, and all men know it.
I suppose it guided me to what I believe the full truth is about Genesis. That it is not allegorical, and that it is first in our historical lineage (it says so).
I really find it to be a philosophical flaw, if indeed you are a seeker of truth, to suppose that the existence of Sumerian texts should obviate the Bible’s account. You are simply choosing one witness over another. One man over another. If you were fair you’d listen, listen to the witnesses. That’s where it is at. Surely, you don’t believe that Albert Einstein was closer to knowing or understanding truth because he was good at math?
foont,
The army of Louis XIV was the scourge of Europe and while the Sun King’s designs were in the end thwarted the reputation of the French military was that they were the best on the continent. Fifty years later, following the rout of the French columes at Rossbach, the victorious Prussians discovered in the abandoned French wagons and tents large quantities of powders and pomades and perfumes and the general observation was that the French army was apparently more at home to “girlie men” than to real soldiers.
The tents and wagons belonged to the officers – men drawn from the “very best” classes and wise in the ways of court intrigue but not so good at the skills that allowed the court an existence at all.
Move forward another fifty years and those of the “very best” class were on their way to the guillotine or exile and the once effete French army was on its way to a revival that made it the terror of Europe for the next two decades.
It wasn’t under Louis XIV but Louis XV, and that makes the big difference in officers recruitment and motivation, for they had to gain the favor of Madame de Pompadour to be appointed, one would know that the king’s favorite mistress was an expert of the art of war, she was rather better at the porcellenary industry of Sevres developpement though.
http://warandgame.wordpress.com/2008/08/27/battle-of-rossbach-1757/
In the age of Louis XIV he might have been disgraced, as was Tallard after Blenheim, but this was the age of Louis XV and Madame de Pompadour’s friendship counted for more than a mere lost battle
I don’t think that the story of pomades and perfumes is true though, these officiers were on a far away campain, not at the Versailles court. The prussian way of conducting the war was kinda the first that we could put in parallel with the Blitz Krieg, sort of prussian military genie !
Also armies of this era weren’t composed with only nationals, foreign mercenaries bataillons were hired with their own officers too, it’s so tha Prussian army became sometimes the second english army on the continent.
This battle isn’t a good exemple for demonstrating that metro-sexuals at war ain’t a good choice, most of the men on the battle field weren’t metro-sexual, (officers had a mouskeeter training as it was in use for the elder son born by nobleness, the 2nd had the church position, generally cardinal)) it was rather because a ignorant woman had made the worst choice for the chiefs.
eowyn,
i was lucky, i met one like you many years ago, and married her. we’ve seen some good times and bad together but she’s been certain from the beginning that “her old man can handle anything”, and i’ve been equally certain that come hell or high water she would be right there beside me, shovelling and stacking sandbags against the flood.
Maybe the study just means that women want someone to talk to in a mate?
The ‘survivability’ thinking may be a self-fulfilling prediction. Because the fittest are just those who happen to survive. So, it begs the question about what is fit? And instead of there being an actual answer we insert ourselves in some way or another. So, scientific.
Women in developed countries in societies with free health-care may desire men with more feminine traits because they are used to the image of men, in these cultures, where the manlier a man is then stereotypically the more chauvinist – not attentive to the woman’s needs. The article doesn’t give enough data, and I have a suspicion there is some Czar watching these forums to see how Conservatives take the Evolutionary bait. They’re reporting back to Obama, It’s in the bag.
Women in less developed countries deal less with such a stereotype, as the society is not cushy enough to exploit the genders, as we do with feminism, and homer-sexuals, and transgendered folk. So, they choose more traditionally masculine traits as desirable.
So, it is about ideals. And that ideal is not traditional looks (as one may begin to think), but in the nicety of being together and getting along well, isn’t it? The compatibility between men and women.
Where is the Evolution? What? It’s not true? It never applied? What are we supposed to do now? What, save the starving of the world? I want to play god, though. I want evolution.
Seriously people, if it were not for the scientists shoving Evolutionism down your throats with it’s images of cave men you’d never think of it yourselves. Of course, people did live in caves, people did hunt and gather, and had lots of hair, and wore animal skins, but ideals are based on principles, and principles are owned by GOD.
(31)Sara: I became single about the same time you did and my experience has been similar to yours.
Several years ago, I went with a friend to a Parents Without Partners New Years Eve dance and it was one of the most depressing events I’ve ever been to. The women (ranging in age from mid -30′s to late 50′s) outnumbered the men 10 to 1. Every one of them was nicely dressed and had clearly taken a lot of time with make-up, hair, nails and so on. In contrast, most of the men wore exactly what they would have worn to see the Rolling Stones in concert in 1975 – sneakers, jeans and T-shirts. The more “dressed-up” ones wore flannel shirts.
The message I got from that was that those men were either so sure of their “desirability” or else so lazy, that they couldn’t be troubled to clean up and put on even a nice pair of pants and a decent shirt (not to mention a jacket or tie) to attend a New Year’s Eve function expressly designed so they could meet members of the opposite sex.
The reality in modern America is that all too often the opposite of “metrosexual” isn’t “manly,” but plain old “slob.”
Those men struck me as boomers with the common boomer wish to remain Forever 17. Good God, I wasn’t expecting them all to look like Cary Grant, but a modicum of effort on their part would have been nice.
But they probably knew they didn’t have to because there were so heavily outnumbered by women. Even the dweebiest looking old hippie with the wispy gray ponytail had no trouble getting a dance partner.
So, I really wonder about guys who complain about not being able to find a woman. Either they are terribly lacking in social skills or their expectations and requirements are so high that they won’t look at anybody who isn’t a beauty queen with a PhD. The male to female sexual imbalance has been noticeable my entire adult life and it will only get worse (from the female POV) because women outlive men.
A friend of mine, whose widowed mother now lives in a nursing home, reports her 82 year old mother is the object of spiteful envy directed at her from the female residents, because she now has a “boyfriend” – 90 year old Jack, who has outlived most of his girlfriends and is apparently the Don Juan of the old folk’s home. He’s one of the few men around who isn’t senile, and can walk and dress and eat without assistance. That’s important criteria when you’re in your ’80′s. Great. The prospect of a return to junior high school in my golden years almost me wish for death panels. :-/
KevinButterfield,
but isn’t there something contradictive in your acknowledgment of stem cells in ancient lore, and your agnosticism? If you start talking about the aliens everyone will think you are kooky.
No contradiction. Once again, my definition of agnosticism is: “we don’t have means to determine the existence of God by scientific tools”. Nothing more, nothing less. Or you think that is not accurate? Provide a scientific proof, then. And I have no problem saying that I am a theist, not an atheist.
I won’t start talking about aliens, though why would that mean I am loon? I simply don’t know who Anunnaki were. Perhaps they were the one and the same from the Egyptian Zep Tepi (The First Time), maybe a remnant of previous civilization with some shiny toys. Note that Summerians never referred to them as gods, just Lofty Ones. The deification is of a later import.
Next, you seem to be putting a lot of words/assumptions into my mouth. Please don’t.
I told you what God told me. If you think I am joking, I am not.
I really find it to be a philosophical flaw, if indeed you are a seeker of truth, to suppose that the existence of Sumerian texts should obviate the Bible’s account. You are simply choosing one witness over another. One man over another.
Nope. They are complementary. All I am saying that the sources from which Abraham drew were more detailed. The clay in Summerian means a substance (materia), not mud. The rib means bone marrow (stem cells). It makes sense to me. Is it possible that Annunaki adapted their literature and passed it as they were the inceptors? It is possible, it may have been easy to con people emerging from the stone age with their shiny toys. May not have been their intention, but dolce vita can corrupt. Wouldn’t be the first and last time.
Re 267 Don Rodrigo,
We are talking about why women supposedly tend to want effeminate looking men these days, remember? I was commenting that in a society with a lot of low-level violence, there are fairly strict divisions between male and female work. Under those circumstances I would assume that women would prefer to have a much more obviously masculine man (and men more obviously feminine women), as both are necessary for a functioning society. Nowadays, in a rather peaceful society in which the roles of the sexes are very blurred and men and women theoretically functionally interchangeable, women tend to prefer “girlie men.” I found that suggestive.
I wasn’t trying to prove anything. I just thought that the pattern was interesting and thought that it might spark some ideas among others. Evidently I was wrong.
Neither I nor the authors I cited expect past cultures to follow modern mores, nor condemn them for not doing so. If anything, I prefer the old way. Arnow, incidentally, was a rural schoolteacher who got interested in the settlement of the Tennessee Valley, and wrote a cultural history of the pioneers. She was not a professional academic and had no ideological axe at all to grind, and I am puzzled as to why you would think so from what I wrote.
Mary Ludwig Hayes and company, who pitched in only when the ordinary gun crew had lost too many members to continue fighting without reinforcements, were not from the border areas and thus weren’t part of the culture I was addressing. In any case, a few exceptions do not invalidate a cultural pattern – people being individuals, there are always going to be exceptions and they are going to be remembered. I know there actually are instances of women fighting on the frontier, though apparently not in Tennessee (I can’t think of any offhand, but I am sure I have read about them.) The point is just that they seem to have been much rarer than modern folks would expect. There is a prevailing belief in popular culture that in really dangerous areas women fight like men, but the evidence I have seen indicates that the exact opposite is true. Under stress men and women act in ways that differentiate them.
Evidently I need to work on my writing skills – seems every time I post something it gets wildly misunderstood.
I spent 4 years researching the God concept, how, when, why it came about, trying to trace back to the first recorded instances of it showing up. During this time, I was also taking courses on the Bible as history.
Here is what I finally concluded: the concept of a higher or more powerful being began at the beginning.
In the beginning there was the Word and the Word was with God, etc.
What I have never understood is why believers and nonbelievers think evolution divides them. For believers, why do you put limits on God? Can you seriously call yourself a believer and deny that if God, after creation, did what the Bible says and gave man free choice, why would you not accept that that choice might extend to all life and natural selection? This whole thread is about natural selection and why we choose to be with those we choose to be with. God never guaranteed that we would make all good choices nor should we think that bad outcomes have anything to do with God and not our own or someone else’s bad choices.
The only thing that really separates humans from animals is our conscience. There is nothing to suggest that when the scripture says God breathed life into Adam, the animal, that the breath doesn’t represent the spirit of God, or good, or our conscience, what informs of good vs evil, or right vs wrong. By the time this happened, the universe was already billions of years old.
I am not a scientist, but I’ve watched enough Discovery Chanel shows to know the science about the formation of the universe, the stars, the solar systems, the planets, and our own earth. When I read the creation verses in the Bible, they mirror the order of the scientific creation. There may have been billions/millions of years between the creation of the universe and the final assemblage of matter that became earth and then the rise of the reptiles, amphibians, birds and land animals to man, but the order is laid out correctly. So why is there debate? And how did the ancients thousands of years ago know this?
We are told that when Adam and Eve consumed the fruit of the tree of knowledge, it changed everything. It seems to me that this is a mark of a defining moment in time, but it does not mean that it was the beginning of time. It was the beginning of awareness of the God concept. Did these ancient people have a V-8 moment or what? Is this the beginning of man’s awareness that there is something greater at work than their own limited sphere? I say yes. This must have been an earth shaking event to the person or persons of that time so long ago, else why would it have survived for eons to finally be written down as we know it in Genesis. Animals, at least to our knowledge, do not have a God concept, yet something changed for man that created a God concept that grew in many different forms in every culture around the world.
My question then to the nonbelievers is why do you care what the believers believe? If you are correct, then it matters not at all, does it?
I don’t know who/what God is, but I do know that to put limits on God is unGodly. If electricity can travel unseen and have huge power, then I see no reason why our spirit cannot live on after our bodies turn back to dust. Someone once said to me, “remember that every thought and ever word you speak creates an electrical impulse that will travel for infinity.” So as the body dies, what is to say that the electricity of our body doesn’t discharge and live on forever and meet up with all those who have gone before?
I have no use for organized religion, but I do believe there is something greater than myself and my own limited knowledge. The universe has too much order to it to be accidental, IMHO. I believe strongly in the power of collective prayer, or all that electrical energy focused on a single goal. I believe that the energy of my ancestors and loved ones are “out there” and that the energy I generate in prayer has every chance of connecting with theirs.
the energy I generate in prayer has every chance of connecting with theirs. Good grief, I prayed like hell, didn’t nothing for my mother, let’s grow up, and try to understand what is going on, if anything. See my #277 above.But, even that, has not keep me from praying. Can’t hurt, but medical school is better.
Bob, what do you want to know?
Bare a general outline that is reflected in the article, it is really non-transferable experience. Physics is different and the vocabulary, the descriptive framework is missing. Time and space are dimensions of focus–it is as if you measured time in meters and distance in seconds. Past, present and future are lateral, in fact, there is no distinction–pick any moment and it is the present, but with incredible intensity and clarity and not only your own perceptions are present, but also of those that are contextual to the selected event. You have an answer the moment you ask question, if so inclined. You don’t fear death anymore, but at the same time you love life, because it has purpose. It is not a random, chaotic expression released by a blind watchmaker.
People often ask about duality, the ghost in the machine. I am convinced that there is no duality. Not because there is no ghost, but because, in reality, there is no machine.
I just want everything to work out for everyone.
Storm Rider 269,
Can we trust the state to be the Alpha?
It really all comes down to Hobbes. Do you want to live in a State of Nature or a Commonwealth. The price of a Commonwealth is Leviathan, who tends to be one bad-ass alpha at times. There are enough examples of both types of societies on earth and you are free to make your choice as to which system works better for middle class beta men and which system is better for pure alphas.
2 by 4–honestly, I don’t know what you are talking about. I’d go with Kant, Schopenhauer and Berkeley. There’s the phenomena, and the noumena. Seems to me, the NDE’s conirm that. But I’m getting older, and don’t much give a shit, anymore. Have it your way. We should not be celebrating Easter, but ratherthe Transfiguration, that means something, the whole myth in a moment.
I agree with you completely Sara, and I think the vast majority of Christians in America do, too. (but they don’t get the media attention)
The Adam and Eve story is quite understandable as an explanation of the beginning of consciousness; science also struggles with that problem, when and how did men become men and cease being whatever they were before? Also, imagine this world about 10,000 years ago, after the ice sheets were gone and an entirely new, uninhabited world full of untouched forests and rivers, teeming with life, beckoned to our ancestors. Was not this entire Earth the most magnificent garden that can be imagined? Of course, if this view is true, then we never left the garden at all – we simply took it over and turned it into a reflection of ourselves.
And that would be true justice.
Because if you are making myth, make it for everyone, not just the ‘believer’, but for everyone. That’s the Transfiguration, for you and I. Not about this resurection. We already have that, don’t you see. The whole myth in a moment, with the Transfiguration, and it may be true. Maybe.
Bob, I am not a mythmaker, you have to look elsewhere. First you ask for a discussion of something and then you reply by “whatever”.
What can I say? There is nothing like a personal experience. As I said, NDE is not transferable, bare generalities. As for DE, you’ll see for yourself, in due time.
The only difference between NDE and DE is that in the first case you temporarily return. It is not “the resurrection” and thus no mythmaking is necessary.
Kevin 314,
“According to Thomas Hobbes, society is a population beneath a sovereign authority, to whom all individuals in that society cede their natural rights for the sake of protection. Any abuses of power by this authority are to be accepted as the price of peace…the sovereign must control civil, military, judicial and ecclesiastical powers.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Hobbs
Protection money and silence (ceding individual rights of property and liberty to the alpha state) dates back to ancient despotism, and it was the preferred method of Machiavelli, and it had the philosophical support of Thomas Hobbes – both philosophers of the alpha state – both of whom lived long before the advent of the mega-monster alpha states: Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, Communist Soviet Union and Communist China. Alpha men have committed crimes but not on the disgusting scale of the mass-murdering alpha states.
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM
Loss of one’s human rights to property and liberty for “protection” of life is the definition of feudal tyranny; and it turns out that under a government with such absolute power over the individual’s human rights, your life is not protected either. Our founding fathers, like John Locke, said no: government’s job is purely to secure our equal unalienable human rights to life, liberty and property, and that there is no “great leader” because all men are created equal before law which secures those un-amendable Declarational rights, i.e.: the Sovereign Authority is “We the People” through our amendable Constitution.
Kevin 314,
“Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man… The republican is the only form of government which is not eternally at open or secret war with the rights of mankind… The true foundation of republican government is the equal right of every citizen in his person and property and in their management.”
“Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves are its only safe depositories… The Constitution of most of our states, and of the United States, assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed and that they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property, and freedom of press…” Thomas Jefferson
“I have no fear but that the result of our experiment will be that men may be trusted to govern themselves without a master. Could the contrary of this be proved I should conclude either that there is no God, or that He is a malevolent Being… The issue today is the same as it has been throughout all history, whether man shall be allowed to govern himself or be ruled by a small elite.” Thomas Jefferson
“Does the government fear us? Or do we fear the government? When the people fear the government, tyranny has found victory. The federal government is our servant, not our master… Law is often but the tyrant’s will (alpha state), and always so when it violates the right of an individual (alpha male).” Thomas Jefferson
We will become Sweden.
Kevin 314,
“This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing (alpha state) government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or exercise their revolutionary right to overthrow it… We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
Bob:
What are you talking about? The Transfiguration is a New Testament act, a religious happening that requires faith. I was talking about the history of a people, the Israelites or Hebrews and the development of a civilization. The Tanakh or Old Testament, especially the Pentateuch, which is based on ancient oral tradition laying out not only the creation and man’s first interactions with the God Concept thru the formation of civilized society with the Law.
It is sad to see someone try to justify their own unbelief who does not really know what they claim not to believe.
Science says that the creation story is pretty darn accurate as it is laid out in the early verses of Genesis. Recent DNA research has shown that a first couple is pretty darn accurate for the modern human. No faith required. Archaeological research is supporting more and more of the Biblical historical account. None of this, of course, has anything to do with Christ, the Transfiguration, or salvation and faith. You are free to deny a God Concept, your are free to deny past and present religious interpretations, that is your right. Proven facts and evidence is science and history not religious belief or myth and does not require faith and to deny is simply ignorance.
I think it is kinda parallel to blood groups. We have alphas, betas, alpha-betas and Os (not to be confused with the zero currently enthroned).
The Os are misfits. They don’t accept the hierarchy, and rather stay outside of it than to give up their identity and self-respect. They lie in wait, for a breakdown of A, AB, B structures (and break down they will) to help the birth of new times. That is their task to do, their mission.
Sarah,
Very well said. I bet that spirit power is not electrical. More like an interdimensional power that supercedes or can be beyond space and time. While still able to enter space and time and even that spirit is that fabric within which space and time exists.
I too am not good with organized religion although I bow to C.S. Lewis’ respect and reverence for ‘Mother Church’. Something had to help us organize our thoughts on the subject and inform us.
I also believe one must choose. If God is … he has informed us from ancient times. There are only two truly ancient religions. Hindu and Hebrew. Personally I accept that Christ is the capstone of the greater of the two. I need a God who has made a direct path for me to knowledge of Him and access to Him. I cannot accept polytheistic thought. It is too disorganized and fraught with constant change. Rewritten over the ages.
One supreme power in full control, A God of Love is simply the highest concept as far as I can figure.
309. Grey Fox:
Thanks for your reply and the additional information. I appreciate your taking the time to do so. To me, the additional information that pads out your points changes how I view your perspective. It also improves my opinion of Prof. Arnow. I am always in favor of knowing what really is or was as opposed to having perceptions based on cherished beliefs. It took many years for me to get to the point where I was willing to do so.
326 posts and nobody’s mentioned Hitler… until now.
ADOLF HITLER!
Godwin was right.
Because the Transfiguration is not an historical claim, while some think the resurrection is, therefore the former can apply to all of us, as a myth, the latter can’t. The cosmic dancer dances lightly, back and forth, in the former, and that may be us. The idea that Genesis tracks the early development of the human race is so much bunk I won’t comment on that idea.
Storm-Rider,
I am sympathetic to where you are coming from but the fact is the United States is the greatest Leviathan alpha-state that has ever existed. Statesmen are full of great words, but I tend to be more of a cynical realist so I like to compare their words to the actions of these statesmen.
Jefferson for example was quite eloquent in his rhetorical defense of Article 1 Section 8 which gave the House the duty to declare war. He called it “an effectual check to the Dog of war “. But when he got into power and was facing some annoying Islamic Barbary States he strangely enough let fly the dogs of war without seeking Congressional approval.
Abraham Lincoln was the closest thing the US ever had to a dictator.
We currently have a President who is heavy on fine words. I personally prefer to watch his actions.
305. “gunner”: “[W]e’ve seen some good times and bad together but she’s been certain from the beginning that ‘her old man can handle anything’, and i’ve been equally certain that come hell or high water she would be right there beside me, shovelling and stacking sandbags against the flood.”
Blessed are you and your wonderful lady, sir — I couldn’t have put it better myself
******************************
Wow!
Since retiring last night, I see this thread has traveled down loftier philosophical and physical tangents. Fascinating, to quote my favorite Vulcan.
I, too, am a committed believer in Jesus Christ who left organized religion behind long ago in search of the true essence of spirituality. Along the way, I discovered Occam’s Razor, which gave me a, er, quantum boost forward. (Here’s a quick Wikipedia link defining this elegant axiom: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor )
I’m as entranced as anyone by tangents in these realms, and, indeed, have followed many. But I find it wearisome. So much easier to cut to the chase. And, sure enough, Byron’s “beauty is truth” etc. stands like a beacon at the end of the road.
They all tie together — Christ, evolution, physical vs. spiritual energy — the whole enchilada. The actual mechanics elude me, but the essential kernel is one of fundamental truth.
How? It all has to do with memory, from the subatomic level to human perception. I urge one and all to read “The Living Energy Universe” by Linda Russek and Gary Schwartz (atheist and agnostic, respectively …!) that explains the whole process brilliantly. (Here’s a link: http://tinyurl.com/yb89lnu )
What emerges is a transformation in thinking of God as the limited anthropomorphic figure dabbling occasional fingers in human affairs into a closer vision of His/Its true majesty, capable indeed of both seeing the smallest sparrow and magnifying the heavens.
(On a personal note, prayer works, as long as you’re praying for the right thing. What’s the right thing? Jesus always lets me know. And I’m also one who believes prayer has an energy both spiritual AND physical.)
That’s well said, Eowyn. How the hell do you pronounce that name? Sounds sorta Irish.
331. bob, thank you — and “Eowyn” is pronounced Ay- (as in way) oh-win. Took the name from a character in Tolkien’s “Lord of the Rings,” with whom I share an affinity, if not an actual doppelganger relationship
Bob:
So if it is “bunk” as you say, then I take it that you do not believe in science, in physics, cosmology, or any other scientific discipline?
It is hard to have a discussion with someone who continues to conflate Christian theology with the historical and scientific record.
Do you not accept the almost universal acceptance of science regarding the Big Bang Theory? Or the science of DNA? Are physicists like Stephen Hawking idiots? Do you deny that the universe has order and subscribe to everything being total chaos? Do you deny that the Universe was without form and over billions of years coalesced into stars, suns, galaxies, planets. Is that all bunk? Do you deny that first the earth was covered with water and then the land formed? Is it scientific bunk that life started in the seas and that plants came first on land? Is it all bunk?
Sure, I accept all that. Till a new idea comes along. What in the world do you mean? All the new science, sure I accept all that. I don’t see where I’ve said different. The Bible is beautiful, but it just doesn’t have the history. To the south of me, in Nevada, there are dry lake beds, that used to support all sorts of life, you wouldn’t believe it. The kinds of life it supported. And early men and women. All gone now. Climate change. heh. the gods… The Bible should be read poetically, not as anthropology, or the history or our species. If I’ve said anything different, I have too much sleep in my eyes. I think Jesus was a man much like Black Elk, I think they both had transformative experiences. And the arc of their lives is much the same. They go out, be transformed, come back, to help their people. One got crucified, the other ended up on a reservation. The message is the same. One from a literate culture, the other not. The arc of their life is the same.
There you go again. I’m talking the historical, albeit condensed history of one group, Hebrews, as laid out in the Old Testament, yet here is Jesus again in your post. Nothing I have said has anything to do with Christian theology.
I’ve talked about the God Concept, not a God or any Gods. I’ve questioned how primitive man could get the order of creation, based on the latest science, so correct. I cannot explain it since, in my mind, it would make more sense for primitives to have thought that the land and man came first, not a universe devoid of form. I’ve talked about what sets man apart from animals, even as man is animal. I’ve talked about the V-8 moment when the God Concept hit that very first person. And I started this discussion by questioning why believers and nonbelievers alike want to put limits on what they claim to be an all powerful, omniscient God. Religion and a belief in God requires faith. Science requires theories to be proved and tested again and again, readjusted as new information comes to light and then proved again.
My faith rests in sensing that some part of us, that part that makes us uniquely human, survives. I likened it to electricity that continues to infinity, or radio waves, something along that nature, Scott said: “More like an interdimensional power that supercedes or can be beyond space and time. While still able to enter space and time and even that spirit is that fabric within which space and time exists.” The point being if there is nothingness then we’ll never know we were wrong to have faith, but if there is a form of “life” after the body turns to dust, that faith informs is heaven or a God-like state then those unbelievers will know they were wrong. If you subscribe to the nothingness then why do you care if others believe in something? If you are right, what difference does it make what billions of believers believe? Why is it so important to atheists to justify their belief in nothing?
335. Sara — “My faith rests in sensing that some part of us, that part that makes us uniquely human, survives.”
The scientists whose book I mentioned above have proven it.
And if nature abhors a vacuum, “nothingness” cannot exist.
Thinks me, anyway.
You haven’t asked, but I’ll explain that I was raised in a Protestant church, where faith was the primary teaching, then I went through a crisis of faith, where I still believed somewhat in a something bigger than myself, but I wasn’t prepared to call that something God and I definitely did not believe in the Christian idea of salvation through the sacrifice of Christ or some heavenly Afterlife.
Then my Mother had her first stroke, a hemorrhagic stroke that destroyed about half her brain, leaving her blind, but with her full intelligence still in tack. Her 2nd stroke, in a different part of her brain, took her judgment and her ability to understand danger, it also had an effect on her ability to call up words, called aphasia. Her 3rd stroke proved to be the ultimate fatal one.
Two days before she died, her body started to shut down. Organs were failing, she was curled in a fetal position, her eyes were blank and staring into space, her muscles became slack, she did not respond to sound or touch. On the doctor’s advice we carried her to her favorite chair and sat her upright to keep her lungs clear. We had to prop her up. She was like a lifeless form, although we could see a strong pulse beating in her neck, but there was zero awareness.
This went on for over 24 hours and we knew her death was just hours, if not minutes away. She was surrounded by her family, four of us who witnessed what came next. About 5 seconds before her pulse stopped beating, she suddenly squeezed my hand, which alone could be called a muscle spasm, I suppose, her face lit up in a smile, her eyes grew very wide open and her head tilted upward and she spoke four words, “Mama, Papa, Alfred, Billy” and then her pulse went quiet and she was gone. These words were her parents and her two beloved brothers who had predeceased her and they were the only words she had spoken in several days. I can’t explain it other than through faith that at that instant of death she was reunited with those she had pined for for decades. My Mother was not a Christian believer, she was an Agnostic, not an Atheist, yet it was her death that ended my own crisis of faith.
That faith is helping me this week as I try to deal with the loss of my very closest friend of 40 years who left us so suddenly last Thursday. It comforts me to think that she is now connected in some cosmic way with her own Mama and Papa and her brother and sister. It comforts me to believe that she is still connected to her own 2 sons and daughters and to my son, who thought of her as his 2nd Mother, and who is taking her death even harder than I am, if that is possible. As about 15 of us sat around over the weekend crying copious tears and wailing, “we can’t believe she’s gone, she can’t be gone,” my son broke the tension when he said, “Shirley’s probably up there jamming with Elvis and Patsy, Roy, Conway, and Hank,” her favorite country/western stars. Can I prove my Mother connected with her loved ones at the very moment of death, no, can I prove that Shirley connected with her loved ones who passed on before her, no, but it gives me comfort to think that both did and that we all will, and that both are still connected with me in some cosmic way. So, you can call it all bunk if you want, and you may ultimately be right, but if you are, neither you nor I will ever know it. If you are wrong, well may God have mercy on your soul.
bob (328):
Says who??
I really appreciate that story. I hope nothing I have said has depreciated stories like that. I have had similar experiences myself. Bless. I am not calling it bunk, just the opposite. I call bunk on the literal interpretations of the Bible as concerns history. Good grief, I posted about life after, or above, above.
Re: literal interpretation.
My Protestant upbringing did not include literal interpretation as some churches teach. We were taught that what we find in the early accounts in the Bible are condensed compilations of hundreds of thousands of years of oral tradition coming from many sources and interpretations of events. Once the written word came into being, there is no longer any need for interpretation and we can call it an historical account that archaeological research is finding pretty accurate. We must apply the caveat that as the oral tradition was written down, it involved a necessity to explain things in terms that the primitives could understand and relate to, just as we use metaphors today or in the way that Jesus used parables to impart larger principles and values. Do we dismiss the underlying message because we now understand that geologic eruptions cause hail and brimstone and not some wrath of God to rain down or do we look deeper at the idea that when society disintegrates very bad things happen due to our own bad choices?
I do not now, nor have I ever thought that the world was created in 6 days, but science is showing that the order of creation matches the Genesis account and to me that is huge. How did they know? The fact that they could not get their mind around the idea of a billion, 5 billion, 10 billion years is inconsequential. I doubt many of us can get our mind around such numbers.
Bob, if you are literal, you are not interpreting. Therefore, if you are interpreting, you are not literal.
I am not really sure why you are bringing up that angle. Nobody is a literalist here, I think.
That there is a concordance between concepts condensed in Genessis and modern science–is that the problem?
OK, I’ll use a parallel. Australian Aborigines practiced blood transfusion long before it was figured out by ourb granpas. For who knows how many Ky. Used a special straw that had bacteriocidal properties. Well that may be not such a big achievement. What is interesting is that apparently they were aware of blood groups. They did not make mistakes of mismatching blood. The system was based on genetics (Mendelian sense). By keeping a track of matrilineal relationships (fairly elaborated system), they not only knew what a blood group they were (or rather if there would be a problem with a transfusion), but also who can mate with whom, to avoid miscarriages and propagation of genetic defects.
Why I am telling you this… simply put, our ancestors were not “cavemen”, though they may have dwelled in caves from time to time for one reason or another. There are fragments of fairly advanced knowledge all over place. If the libraries of Alexandria, Halikarnassos, Cartage, Hatushash, Harappa, you name it… were still in place, these fragments would not seem out of place at all.
Sara,
The fact that they could not get their mind around the idea of a billion, 5 billion, 10 billion years is inconsequential.
Not exactly. Vedic literature uses such time frames. Not only that, but the subdivisions of time was as refined than ours: 1 nādi or daņda is equal to 24 minutes, 1 vinādī is equal to 24 seconds, 1 asu or prāņa is equal to 4 seconds, 1 nimeşa is equal to 88.889 milliseconds, 1 tatpara is equal to 2.96296 milliseconds and then 1 truţi is equal to 29.6296 microseconds or 33,750th part of second. Smallest measure of time is paramanu (60,750th of a second).
Why they needed such a refinement? They did not, of course. But someone in past before them may have had a use for it.
In the opposite direction:
A Manvantara is one of the 14 sub-units of a cosmic creation and lasts for 710 days or 306 720 000 solar years. A Manvantara is divided into a total of 71 Mahayugas ( “big Yugas”). Currently, we live the 28th Mahayuga (8,588,160,000 years since beginning, that’s 8.5 billion years). Mahayuga of the 7th Manvantara. The Mahayugas close to each other seamlessly, without having a period of twilight to be separated.
Mahakalpa — Brahma’s Lifespan
Brahma (the creator) lives for 100 years of 360 (3600=Sumerian Shar) such days and at the end, he is said to dissolve, along with his entire Creation, into the Paramātman (Eternal Soul). The scriptures put Brahma’s age at 100 years in his unique time scale.
Brahma’s life span is equal to 311,040,000,000,000 human years (e.g. 311 trillion years). This period in named as maha kalpa.
A universe lasts only for one maha kalpa period. At the end of it the universe is completely destroyed together with the creator Brahma and a new universe would be created with a new Brahma. This cycle goes on endlessly. The Vedic universe passes through repetitive cycles of creation and destruction. During the annihilation of the universe, energy is conserved, to manifest again in the next creation.
Correction:
2,147,040,000
0,846,720,000
=============
2,993,760,000
~ 3 trillion years since beginning of this universe. So, kinda a tad past the beginning. Nice, eh?
I guess I mean inconsequential to the larger lessons the Bible is teaching.
There were many other cultures at the same time that the Hebrews of the Bible were making their marks, some more, some less advanced.
I just got more tragic news so I’ll make this short. My mind is sort of kaput.
Inconsequential in the sense that I don’t need to know or understand the programming and science behind getting a Mars Rover to Mars, and still appreciate the great accomplishment of not only getting two of them safely for what was planned as a 3 mo. venture that has turned out to be what 6 years or more. I do not have to understand how Hubble got where it is or the science behind how it does what it does and can still appreciate the beauty of the pictures it sends back and the advancements it has helped cosmologists/physicists make about the beginnings of the universe. If I had to master the math involved, I would not know anything.
There is an engraved saying over the Mormon Temple in Salt Lake that says, “The Glory of God is Intelligence” and there are many ways to use and appreciate that Glory, whether it be advanced math or a glorious symphony composition, or the miracle of birth. We do not need to know ourselves every minute detail to appreciate a result and that is what I meant. We do not need complicated formulas of time to understand the basic or fundamental message or the truth of the creation of the universe.
I’m probably not making much sense, but I’ve got to go, I just got word that my son’s best friend is on life support.
I don’t have my numbers right at hand, but 86,000, when you take the number of thanes going out to fight from Valhalla, by the doors, mulitiply, etc., jeez, they match the old numbers of the patriarchs in the Bible, fooling around with the numbers back there a bit. It goes back to Sumaria, the star watchers, I have read. Whole thing is amazing, saying, there was much interconnection in the old myths, but how?
I want to say, the ages of the Patriarchs in the Bible, massages a bit, and the number of the thanes in Valhalla, going to battle, match the old numbers from Sumer. In the Bible, the numbers are sorta underground, a background. How did this concordia ever come to pass? And, how do the Hopi, of our Southwest, have a pillar of fire at night, and a cloud to lead them during the day, in their migrations? I have no answers to this.
Peace to you, Sara.
bob (328):
Because the Transfiguration is not an historical claim
Says who??
My church, for goodness sakes, they can’t be wrong!
Sara, regarding 310.,
Where do you get off saying, “For believers, why do you put limits on God?” regarding their rejection of Evolution? Okay, my understanding is kicking in. You don’t understand that Creationists accept Natural Selection. How can that be, you ask? Natural Selection is not the machine of molecules-to-man Evolution, as you have been tricked, tricked into thinking. It has never, ever been shown that animals have evolved from lower to more complex forms. It has been interpreted, and arrogantly, disgustingly and falsely called a fact.
Mutations? Without leaps in logic we are still dealing with Natural Selection, not Evolution. Do you think bacterial resistance to anti-biotics is Evolution? The germs are still germs, and they have lost function, which by happenstance allows them to survive lethal anti-biotics in hospital environments; but the mutated germs are less suited to survive when they are reintroduced to their original habitat and compete with unmutated bacteria. (And even if you were as sharp as twobyfour and lay down some rebuke of the ‘survival of the fittest’ screed it is still not going to recessitate mutations. Mutations ruin information.)
Here is my very good question to you. If this is true, that Natural Selection has never been shown to show a gain in genetic information (which molecules-to-man evolution requires)-(and noting mutations have never been shown to increase genetic information) isn’t it very interesting that the literal interpretation of Genesis does not contradict the observable science in any way, and in fact, since it is God’s account in Genesis, it has actually qualified the very limits of Natural Selection. Dogs produce after their kinds in all their variations, cats, horses, etc. And if they get mutations, it typically bodes poorly. Think Original Sin.
Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.
Milleniem
Listen friends, and mark my words in this moment and this hour–
God is jealous for his name for his name is jealous.
Nor is this a charming flower to set before a man
nor one of his commands.
Yet, without Jesus, this is more than we can love as we desire peace,
and less than we can know as we desire joy.
For the sacred fire
that makes us liars–
I mean, that separates speech from dreams,
and separates our flesh from the future–
is God’s power manifested.
So, in the year and the hour– for his sake, invest your desire in Jesus.
Follow his holy fire for right now. Right now he intercedes for us in heaven!
Some will say we are people of the way.
We are people of the way.
We praise his holy name
Yahweh.
I am who I am.
I cause things to be.
I am the first cause of creation.
We praise his holy name
Elohym.
And say “Thank you Jesus for your precious blood–
better, so much better than the blood of Abel.
How then should we pray?
I pray bless me a lot oh God.
Show me your kingdom and righteousness
in such a way that my thoughts words and deeds
reflect your wisdom and power–
and that– for the sake of your honor and glory.
So that I will live in your presence
in this life and the next.
For your name sake
Let me hear my children praise your name
And their children too.
I pray all this in Jesus name.
Bob,
How did this concordia ever come to pass? And, how do the Hopi, of our Southwest, have a pillar of fire at night, and a cloud to lead them during the day, in their migrations?
It was freaking big.
It is interesting to scan through mythology. For instance, Inuit have a myth that they did not live in the land of ice long time ago. They were flown there on the wings of metallic birds. The myth has been recorded before the age of airplanes. What does that mean? Haven’t a faintest.
Why was everybody at a certain time searching for a land with rivers of milk and rich in honey? Whether they called it nectar and ambrosia or something else–same thing. There is probably no tribe that does not have that line in their mythology. I may understand rich in honey, sweet stuff, Jews were picking it in the desert (!), calling it mana and made pastries out of it. But rivers of milk?
Why was everybody afraid of sky falling? Again, you find it everywhere and it is curious that it survived. No one saw sky falling in the last 2 millennia. And what it means?
What the stick man with a ring (represented by two dots or circles) around midriff means? It is painted or chiseled on rocks all over the world.
And so on. Questions.
KevinButterfield,
One of the curious things is that …
16S rRNA gene sequences contain hypervariable regions which can provide species-specific signature sequences useful for bacterial identification. As a result, 16S rRNA gene sequencing has become prevalent in medical microbiology as a rapid, accurate alternative to phenotypic methods of bacterial identification. That’s for procaryotes.
For eucaryotes, the identifying segment is 18S rRNA. Mammals 3 defining segments, 12S, 16S and 18S.
What’s the significance? The official line states: The rRNA is the most conserved (least variable) gene in all cells. For this reason, genes that encode the rRNA (rDNA) are sequenced to identify an organism’s taxonomic group, calculate related groups, and estimate rates of species divergence.
Unofficially, not only there, but for instance in cytochromes or even in hemoglobines, when you sort them out and put into a taxonomic table, a bitsy inconvenient thing happens. You’ll find their divergences equidistant.
That’s a tad strange evolution, innit? I mean wouldn’t you expect a carp less distant from a chicken than from a human? No, the darn chicken wants to be as far from the carp as Joe. OK, I hear that chicken is not in a direct lineage. Alrighty, replace the chicken with a lemur and you get the same stuff.
Granted, if I had you mapped out and a bat too, I may be able to splice and dice and “evolve” your arms into wings of a bat, or even throw in an eye of newt or a pair. But whether you would be able to reproduce, that is the question. (Yes, we do have a sizable population of moonbats, but that is their mental form, they are physically indistinguishable from a regular human).
Australian Aborigines have this pet theory… They have some sort of mindspace they call Dreamtime. Actually, they don’t, but anthrops translated it that way as the word had no equivalent in English. The fish was dreamed about to become a turtle. Then turtle was dreamed about to become a snake. The snake was dreamed about to become a lizard… and so on. Sounds like some sort of evolution, right? Well, more like magic. The Dreamtime is not of this world.
there is an evolution, just not the Darwinian one–which is an uniformitarian illusion. The survival of the fittest is a circular and post hoc concept.
Nonsense; it’s not “circular” at all. If horses or gazelles, say, get predated on the open plains by wolves, so that on average the slower and clumsier runners are picked off preferentially, then the species’ gene pool will incline toward animals that can run faster and more agilely in exactly the same way as humans selecting faster running dogs after generations produced the greyhound.
Mutations ruin information. … If this is true, that Natural Selection has never been shown to show a gain in genetic information (which molecules-to-man evolution requires) — (and noting mutations have never been shown to increase genetic information)…
Utterly false. Mutations don’t ruin information, rather they add noise to information — which may ruin pre-existing information, or it may add new information to what’s already present. How can one (i.e., life) tell which is which? Natural selection winnows out the wheat from the chaff.
And it’s simply not true that “mutations have never been shown to increase genetic information.” For instance, in 1988 Rich Lenski of U.C. Irvine began a long running experiment with cultures cloned from a single E. coli bacterium and thus all genetically identical, which were competing for a limited quantity of sugar in the culture medium. Mutations over time accumulated in the separate offspring cultures, many of which were deleterious, as mutations typically are, but natural selection acted to weed those out.
Eventually, however, at generation 33,127 yet another mutation on top of those occurring before (which alone was incapable of producing the effect) resulted in something entirely new: the capability for the E. coli mutant line to utilize another nutrient that had been in the culture medium all along: citrate, which no E. coli had heretofore been able to metabolize — and the population of the culture thereupon exploded due to all the food that it suddenly discovered was available to it.
This is indeed in a sense a new “species” of E. coli that evolved right under the eyes of the experimenters, demonstrating quite vividly the capability of mutation to produce new information where hitherto it had not been present. (See Nature, vol. 463, issue no. 7283 (18 February 2010), pp. 854-855.)
Michael McNeil, oh I see, it is testable, that is your point?
OK, here is the thing… the valley has two types of vegetation. One is grass and another is minty plant, that is really a disgusting chew.
The fast horses go for juicy grass area and leave the minty stuff for the slowlies.
While lunching, a pack of wolves observe and one rans toward the herd (standard wolf tactic). Horses start running away, as they do. The slowlies are naturally behind.
The pack goes to action, the mark is selected (wolves howl with each other to denote the mark). The alpha has the task of taking down the mark. He runs like crazy towards the mark and the wind changes direction and blows directly towards the wolf. He stops on the spot.
Other wolves run towards alpha and the following discussion ensues:
Female alpha: ” Are you nuts? Why did you stop?”
Male alpha: “It was another of them minty ones. I hate mints!”
So, you see, the fitness is not really that predictable. You assume that the criterion is the speed and it is actually mint!
OK, I hear, it is not a probable scenario. I would love to be so sure.
So how about… Island, with a volcano off to my left side. There are lemurs all over the island. The vegetation on the volcano slopes is juicier (more volcanic ash fertilizer ) and the lemurs are plumper than the cousins on the flat side of the island. They are very fit and the cousins are barely getting by on substandard chew.
The plumpies are frolicking (in their slowish kinda way) as usual and occasionally grimace with disdain towards a cousin that got too close to their territory. And then… boom! The volcano goes off and in a few minutes, the plumpies are plumpies flamboaux, roasted under a cover of volcanic ashes, ashes, dust to dust.
The nutrition deficient cousins, skinnies (also called derogatory other names by plumpies, like “skeletor”), on the opposite side that is removed from the volcano wrath are still moving, cuz their goose is not cooked.
Nobody knew they are fit until the volcano went boom. But yes, they survived and hencetoforth they are the fittest.
Once again, I’ll iterate to let that sink it. They are fittest because they survived, they did not survive because they are the fittest. Post hoc.
And that is my beef with the theory.
Michael McNeil/354
Actually, I would bet that there was no change in the DNA itself. Just some RNA bits/markers wrapped around the DNA to delineate the production of proper enzymes to break down the new yummie. Them e.Coli have a potential metabolize organic compounds. They usually specialize, but if conditions change, they use their enzymes to test the food. If they did not have that ability to begin with, SOL. Just drop ‘em to a sugar solution and see how fast they revert to their sugary religion!
Did Rich Lenski try that? If not, a shame. I definitely would. I’d also compare the DNA. Did he?
Michael McNeil,
A request, can you please let me know when them E.Coli evolve wings (can be just some sort of branes, I am not insisting on feathers, really) and become airborne biota?
Thanks muchly! Will be waiting patiently for the news.
Just thought of my uncle. He can’t metabolize milk. He’s also a stage magician and eats glass. Haven’t thought of that before, but based on your criteria, he may be actually another species! Cool! Will tell him, he is sorta weird, BTW, maybe that would count too. So maybe I’ll convince him.
Actually, I would bet that there was no change in the DNA itself. Just some RNA bits/markers wrapped around the DNA to delineate the production of proper enzymes to break down the new yummie.
I’d be happy to take your money. You really think the researchers haven’t investigated what actually occurred? Nor do bacteria in general and E. coli in particular have the capability to metabolize just any “organic compound.” Indeed, as the scientists point out, “The inability to use citrate as an energy source under oxic conditions has long been a defining characteristic of E. coli as a species.”
Because the experimenters retained cultures at intermediate steps of the long-term experiment, the researchers have been able to replay the process from numerous points, and it turns out that three separate mutations events were required. They are now in the process of doing whole genome decipherment on the mutant E. coli‘s to identify exactly what changes produced the new capability, which no E. coli has possessed before.
As to what change to the E. coli bacterial genome (which is almost certainly in the DNA and not some “RNA bits/markers” as you put it) provided the new ability, the scientists note, “One possibility is that the Cit+ lineage activated a ‘cryptic’ transporter, that is, some once-functional gene that has been silenced by mutation accumulation. This explanation seems unlikely to us because the Cit− phenotype is characteristic of the entire species, one that is very diverse and therefore very old. We would expect a cryptic gene to be degraded beyond recovery after millions of years of disuse. A more likely possibility, in our view, is that an existing transporter has been coopted for citrate transport under oxic conditions.”
Time (and genomic decipherment) will tell what method in particular was utilized by the mutated E. coli‘s to achieve their newfound capability. In the meantime, if you want to support your “no DNA changes” hypothesis with a little wager, as I say I’ll be glad to take your money.
(See: Zachary D. Blount, Christina Z. Borland, and Richard E. Lenski, “Historical contingency and the evolution of a key innovation in an experimental population of Escherichia coli,” Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, vol. 105, issue no. 23 (June 10, 2008), pp. 7899-7906.)
A request, can you please let me know when them E.Coli evolve wings (can be just some sort of branes, I am not insisting on feathers, really) and become airborne biota?
Half-witted ridicule isn’t an argument. Of course, it took many millions of mutations together with natural selection winnowing them out, over hundreds of millions of years, to go, step by step, from single-celled bacteria, to single-celled eucaryotic cells, to multi-cellular organisms, to primitive vertebrates, to lobe-finned fish, to four-footed land animals, to reptiles, to dinosaurs, to those dinosaurs with wings that we call birds. But that’s not the question here. The question was, quite specifically, can mutations produce new information? The answer is yes.
Michael McNeil/359
No quarrel, of course mutations can produce new information. We’d be deader than a piece of petrified wood if that was not the case. A snack for some bug with a terminal finality (may still happen, but hopefully a few ninja mutants may be just odd enough to declare pyrrhic victory).
My problem is how you get from a dog to kerberos. Well, that may happen, not a good example, though it would be likely an one time event.
I wanna flying canine with feathers, not just one… a pack that I could put into harness and forget airplane tickets. How? Maybe a bat-dog is possible, but feathers … unless I crack the code and make it so. Aha, I’ll be the Natural Selector! Of course, people would be saying “That’s a nice designer batdog!”, not “That’s a naturally selectored batdog!” I think they would intuitively express something profound.
Dogs… they are now in all sorts of shapes and hues (bare green and purple, I think they hate these colors). Put a chihuahua and a doberman in a corral and let them spawn several generations. What will you find? A dog that would look remarkably like the one before humans started to employ fashion into their breeds.
What’s wrong with us mammals? 65 million years since demise of dinos (‘possedly) and we could come up with a puny flying rat? Why not a pteranocat? My cat can sometimes fly when mixed temporarily with a bathtub, but that ain’t it.
Show me a fishturtle and a turtlefish. That may convince me. Until then, it is not a theory but a hypothesis reminiscent of swiss cheese.
And natural selection is still a tautology. Oh, where are those sweet times when I was fresh from the schools and knew everything! From Hyracotherium to Equus. But then, them damn holes in the narrative started to crop up. Occam razor becomes dull after a while.
I’ve heard that Lot’s wife was a Pillar of Salt by day, but a Ball of Fire by night!
I think everyone is missing the point. The gist of the story is that in a nation with “advanced health care”, women go for the girlie men. This is nothing more than a plug for Obama care. Or maybe I’m just being cynical
Kevin 329,
The United States has (by not establishing the Declaration of Independence as our supreme un-amendable moral law and by subverting our actual Constitution with the Orwellian “Living Constitution) degenerated into an authoritarian state – not yet a totalitarian state. We will “have arrived” when the American Kulaks (God and gun clinging cowboys and rednecks) are rounded up and murdered by the self-clinging, gun-clinging alpha state.
What’s wrong with us mammals? 65 million years since demise of dinos (‘possedly) and we could come up with a puny flying rat? Why not a pteranocat?
There’s nothing wrong with bats; they’re a successful, diverse group. And they’re not just “flying rats,” but also “flying foxes.” However, the reason why bats aren’t more obvious fliers to us is clear — those evolved dinosaurs known as birds took over the aerial-fliers ecological niche long before them, and simply out-compete bats — which are reduced to occupying fringe niches such as flying only at night, when birds have trouble seeing. Moreover, lacking feathers as light, strong aerodynamic surfaces to support them, bats are heavier, more lumbering fliers than birds.
I wanna flying canine with feathers, not just one… a pack that I could put into harness and forget airplane tickets. How? Maybe a bat-dog is possible, but feathers …
No need to consider canines, there are already “flying squirrels,” that — were the “flying” niches not already thoroughly occupied by both birds and bats — might well evolve wings out of their gliding skin flaps, no doubt as bats did originally.
As far as feathers are concerned, the fossil record over the last decade or two has revealed much about how feathers evolved, as it turns out, long before flight (contrary to how scientists long supposed the process likely occurred). Originally ground dwelling carnivorous dinosaurs related to the (Jurassic Park famed) Velociraptor evolved downy feathers, much like a new-hatched chick, apparently for insulation. Later, some of those dinosaurs’ descendants (including Velociraptor) took it a step further by developing so-called “pennaceous feathers,” which as Wikipedia describes them “have a central shaft (or rachis) with vanes spreading to either side. These vanes are composed of a high number of flattened barbs, that are connected to one another with barbules.” It’s not clear why those evolved, but they did — once again, before flight — and it’s likely that Velociraptor (pace Jurassic Park) was covered in them.
Eventually, certain close relatives of Velociraptor undertook flight experiments — probably much like the mammalian flying squirrel — coopting those already existent feathers as strong and light aerodynamic surfaces. Early dinosaurian fliers of this lineage actually utilized two banks of wings (rather analogous to our human-built early flying biplanes), with a second bank of feathered wings extending outward from their (rear) feet, in addition to the “upper arm” wings, which is all that modern birds utilize for the purpose — which can be seen in the close Velociraptor relative known as Microraptor. Finally, after the bird lineage developed its flying skills, they ultimately dropped — as human airplanes did — the lower wing bank, thereupon utilizing their rear extremities only as landing gear, manipulators, and (sometimes) weapons.
Hers (his?) was the face that launched 1,000 internet responses. The unending nature of this particular thread proves that.
Clearly there is nothing that will mobilize traditional men like a challenge to their sense of masculinity or questioning the continuing need for their masculinity. I think that’s a good thing.
I think this thread can die now.
#328 bob: Because the Transfiguration is not an historical claim,
Cross check 2 Peter 1:16-18, where Peter, I guess is making reference to a mythical, not historical, experience??:
We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.
All this mythic language is confusing when one is obviously making reference to an experienced *event* !
I’m just sayin’!
okay this is a silly premise. r u suggesting that all girls like guys who like like girls? guys come in all looks from very grungy to cleancut.
anyways. all of my friends who are age 19 to 24 dont like being generalised about and we like all sortsa diffrent guys our age. what we dont like is old guys coming on to us who are old enough to be our dads. nast. old men should stick with old women and stop hitting on us. we dont want old man peen.
also most of us dont want kids until we are in our thirtys if ever because we want to make something of our lives and not ever need a man. old guys who think girls only want them for thier money shouldnt go after girls and stick to women anyways. u old men r not cute. get it? yuck
thanks
kristen
What is that old adage?
Better to keep one’s mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and resolve all doubt.
(Thanks, Abe!)