This Land is Mined
The recent exchange of testy words between Washington and Israel over the approval of new construction in East Jerusalem is ostensibly over the fate of the “peace process” now being shepherded by the US. VOA says that “for decades he United States has tried to act as a bridge between Israelis and Arabs. President Barack Obama, following in the footsteps of his predecessors, is looking for ways to end hostilities and bring about a long-elusive peace.”
The announcement of the East Jerusalem construction was said to have undermined Vice President Joe Biden’s diplomatic efforts. “This was supposed to be a period of heightened U.S. diplomacy in the Middle East, with U.S. envoy George Mitchell named as a go-between in indirect talks between Israelis and Palestinians, and Vice President Joe Biden making a high-profile trip this week to Jerusalem.” But what were the odds that Biden’s efforts were actually going anywhere? And if not, then why?
One line of thought is that peace is within reach if only Israel would give way. Andrew Sullivan, for example, lectured Prime Minister Netanyahu about Israel’s aggressive past. Did Netanyahu know, he asks, how much land the Jews have grabbed? Did Netanyahu slaver, he asks, at the prospect of an apartheid state? The Economist points out that Sullivan’s arguments are nonsense, but it too is willing to concede the principle that if Israel gave something back then peace might be attained. Israel must still give; the only question is how much. Tom Friedman also seems to think that Israel has missed the party by “driving around drunk.” Friedman wrote:
I am a big Joe Biden fan. The vice president is an indefatigable defender of U.S. interests abroad. So it pains me to say that on his recent trip to Israel, when Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu’s government rubbed his nose in some new housing plans for contested East Jerusalem, the vice president missed a chance to send a powerful public signal: He should have snapped his notebook shut, gotten right back on Air Force Two, flown home and left the following scribbled note behind: “Message from America to the Israeli government: Friends don’t let friends drive drunk. And right now, you’re driving drunk. You think you can embarrass your only true ally in the world, to satisfy some domestic political need, with no consequences? You have lost total contact with reality. Call us when you’re serious. We need to focus on building our country.”
But where’s the party? How close was Biden to actually making a breakthrough? If Israel was driving drunk on the highway, what event did it miss? Friedman’s article is accidentally nearer the mark than he imagines when he describes how Biden should have thrown a tantrum, because theater is what it is all about. The “peace process” is really a process: a mime show of appearing to do something. In that context there’s nothing inappropriate about declaring oneself a fan of Joe Biden any more than confessing yourself a die-hard follower of the Red Sox. But it was hardly as if a peace settlement impended or even that there was one in the offing. Given the yawning gap between the existential requirements of Israel and the aspirations of the backers of a Palestinian state, a peace settlement is not happening any time soon. The current problems are too fundamental. The real purpose of the peace process is to keep the non-war alive. As long as the diplomats keep the “peace process” alive their goal will have been fulfilled.
The MidEast Web has long and detailed references to the history of attempts to establishing Jewish and Arab states side by side going back to before World War 2. Every model one can think of has been proposed. A binational state, a two state solution, one Arab State, one Jewish State, the Clinton plan, the probable current Obama plan and everything in between. The wars fought in 1948, 1956, 1965 and 1973 have brought no solution. Neither have the intifdadas. President Bush’s Roadmap Plan didn’t even bother to have a defined endpoint at all: it was “not a final status plan, but a series of steps designed to calm the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, create a provisional Palestinian state and allow for negotiations of a final status agreement … However, the roadmap does not specify the final borders of Palestine and Israel or any other other details of the solution.” In essence the object was to keep the wheels spinning, to keep the parties talking, to distract everyone on the theory that for so long as the palaver lasted the guns would remain silent.
But at the same time the palaver could never be allowed to get too close to an agreement. The other unstated goal of the peace process was probably to keep any of the “solutions” from going forward because the actual establishment of a Hamas-controlled Palestinian state would probably be an immensely destabilizing event. It would create a salient in the Israeli security perimeter which would sooner rather than later become a launching pad for further attacks on the Jews. If Obama actually got what he wanted he probably wouldn’t want it.
The perverse nature of the “peace process” is driven by the unstable strategic environment of the Middle East. The existence of fundamentally undemocratic and aggressive states like Syria and Iran, coupled with the multiplicity of nonstate terrorist actors like Hezbollah and Hamas, is incompatible with the survival of a state like Israel, which for historical reasons is paranoid about its existence. It’s a puzzle in which the pieces won’t fit until they are machined down to slot in. No lines drawn on a map, no handshakes on the White House lawn, no pious statements of goodwill alters the key fact that something has to be the grinder and some parts have to be ground down. To speak of the Palestinian-Israeli process is to look through the wrong end of the telescope. Just as one cannot understand Lebanon without understanding Syria and Iran — and indeed the entire Sunni-Shia schism and its attendant politics — so too is it impossible separate the “Palestinian” problem from its context.
It’s not the settlements that are the problem, it’s the region.
Everyone understands that the problem is structured like this at some level. So the underlying argument for pushing the “peace process” forward is that the establishment of a Palestinian state will facilitate an American solution to the regional security crisis. Because the problem is so large the diplomats have been casting around a long time for a key. President Obama rejected the Bush approach of trying to cut the the Gordian Knot with the Freedom Agenda approach and is attempting the same task by pursuing a Grand Bargain. In this scenario Israel is seen as the bit of protruding string on which diplomats must pull to disentangle the whole convoluted mess. Settlements –> East Jerusalem –> Palestinian State –> Lowered Regional Tensions — > Peace. It’s the Dry Bones theory of diplomacy.
The toe bone connected to the heel bone,
The heel bone connected to the foot bone,
The foot bone connected to the leg bone,
The leg bone connected to the knee bone,
The knee bone connected to the thigh bone,
The thigh bone connected to the back bone,
The back bone connected to the neck bone,
The neck bone connected to the head bone,
and the MidEast problem is solved!
Simple, right? But the problem is what if Israel’s not the bitty little key to the huge door? Dry Bones paradigm doesn’t work when the whole skeleton is fractured. That just connects one fracture with another. Maybe the real metric of how well the Peace Process will do is how successful the Obama administration is at dealing with Syria and Iran. Because if he fails at that, the Peace Process is doomed, no matter how many houses are not built in East Jerusalem. Maybe not everyone agrees that is the correct order of the solution. But they can try their own sequence and see if it works. My guess is that the solution to Israeli-Palestinian problem will be the byproduct of, rather than the proximate cause of a broader regional stability. Until then Joe Biden can keep flying a shuttle and opening and slamming shut his notebook.
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This land is mined land
This land inured land
Not California
Or the New York island
But they’re our friend, so
Don’t let it end, so
Barack we beg you
Don’t let them die
They won’t go quiet
They will not buy it
That they must heed to
Your slightest whim
If Iran acts now
Here are the facts now
The mid-east blazes
And then grows dim
The current Obama/Clinton/Biden policy, like all their policies, is totally ahistorical (this being the progressive dogma, which they consider hyper-rational and empirical). Yes, they assert the “dry bones” theory as if it had never been heard before. But, unfortunately, the history of the Palestinians is one of Yasir Arafat, who never intended to make peace, and when offered 99% of his unreasonable demands by Ehud Barak, *still* turned it down.
And since then, things have only gotten worse. Over the last year, the Palestinian position has been that Tel Aviv is occupied territory, and the Palestinian state will not recognize the Israeli state. Why should Israel pay any attention at all, to such a “partner”? Why is the pressure on Israel? Is it not offensively stupid, for the US to pressure *Israel* under such circumstances?
Now, there is the complicating aspect (isn’t there always in this story), that after Arafat rejected Barak in 2000 and started the “second intifada”, Israel threw in the towel. Israel now parses incoming messages from the Palestinians and, as long as they remain offensive, Israel cares not at all for the details.
Israel now treats the Palestinians with whatever humanitarian respect they can, but it’s completely one-sided, like caring for a patient in a coma, who at most babbles a few meaningless words now and then. And Israel totally rejects the “hudna”, which cedes to Islam the decision as to when to fight.
These have been the facts on the ground for ten years now. Everyone in the world knows it – except for Obama, Clinton, and Biden, apparently, and the anti-semites, Jewish and otherwise, on the Obama staff.
This was also quite on display this morning, btw, on ABC News, when the moderator (whose name I forget) asked David Axelrod (Jewish) something about whether “Israel’s intransigence would be suitably punished”.
Next stop, blood libel.
wretchard,
If Obama actually got what he wanted he probably wouldn’t want it
Even worse he might. Occam’s razor shaves clear a message that says that he despises Jews so much he collects creatures like Emanuel and Friedman to do his dirty work.
The VOA statement is even better. Every single clause in it is a falsehood. It is a lie so complete as to qualify as a cult tract.
for decades he United States has tried to act as a bridge
False, the United States has generally been the ally of Israel against what were Soviet clients. The State Department, in their quest to be more English than the English, were always explicitly antisemitic. This is aided by the assumption many diplomats have that the Saudis are in their employment contract as a second pension plan. Only recently has the “honest broker” theory been put forward as a stalking horse for a U.S. not aligned with Israel. The Israelis can take a cold satisfaction in knowing that puts them in the same relation with America as the British are with regards to Argentina.
following in the footsteps of his predecessors
The only footsteps he is following in are Jimmy Carter’s, and that may be unfair to Carter. While Carter may not like Jews personally I do not believe that he actually wanted to see poverty and suffering increase here or abroad. Obama knows where his policies lead and likes that outcome. What is needed to justify the policy the US has pursued as an ally of Israel for the last 62 years is not philo-hebraicism but simply faith in the American interest. Harry Truman who is still considered a saint by American Jews would not allow a Jew into his private house, because it was Bess’ house, unlike the White House, and she did not like Jews.
Tom Friedman also tries to set the terms of the debate with a whopper by claiming the argument is “contested East Jerusalem.” That is the least contested issue on the table. By stating it that way he a priori invalidates any Israeli counterclaims and makes the entire negotiation one between the Americans, whose position is “Shut up and sign,” the PLO, whose position is “We want it all but will take it in stages,” and Hamas, whose position is “Kill the Jews.” Every square inch of formerly Mandatory Palestine is disputed by the Israelis and most of the inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza, and their friends and relatives. The only ones who do not have a claim on any part of the land, on either side of the 1949 Green Line, are the governments of Jordan and Egypt.
Dry Bones is alive in the Middle East. His blog has an opinion of Mr Biden.
“Mideast Peace” is just another charade providing Arabs and Muslims with another pretext to wage Jihad. Little reported in the papers is the fact that Biden scurried out of Tel Aviv and headed straight for Riyadh where more pretexts for Islamic Jihad were danced around — the latest being Saudi’s (Sunni) concern over Iranian (Shiite) nukes, and what the Americans were gonna do about it… Of course, Saudi Arabia and the Arab gulf states are the main sources of global terrorism, and far more Jihad and terror is funded through those nations than Iran.
Even so, the Western role so far in this charade has us pretending that Iran is the largest state sponsor of global terrorism, and giving Saudi Arabia cover to wage its Jihad unhindered. The myriad Muslim toehold communities across the entire “infidel” world are not Shiite toeholds, they are Sunni beachheads, and Saudi Arabia has been promoting them for decades.
It was really quite amusing to watch tiny Israel rub Biden’s nose in Obama’s horrible policies. Last year the Obama administration condemned Israel’s ongoing settlements suggesting that they were the main impediment to moving forward in the elusive “Peace Process”(tm). It was, of course, a ludicrous and nasty lie.
But in the same way, it was also ludicrous to listen to Obama pledge at the beginning of his catastrophic administration that the “Peace Process”(tm) would be a “top priority” only to see an entire year unfold with virtually zero action on his part. In the same fashion, just a mere few weeks ago, Obama pledged that jobs jobs jobs would be his “top priority”, but a couple weeks later he’s back pushing “health care reform”, and not “jobs jobs jobs”. Obama appears to be as malignantly dishonest as any of his Arab Muslim interlocutors in the Middle East… perhaps a match made in heaven, Allah’s heaven, for the perpetuation of Muslim terror long into the future. The Obama administration will bring great harm to Israel, America, and the world before he’s through.
If I had to guess, given that Israel never gets a square deal in any media setup, there was a decision, back in the summer of 2006, to just let go. Condi Rice came in. Remember her? How long did her reputation last?
There’s also the reality, that prior to 9/11, in August 2001, Dubya wrote a 3 page, handwritten letter to the king of the saud’s, promising him (what we don’t know). Just he he didn’t hurt us with an oil shutdown. This letter was such a big deal that arafat visited Riyadh back then, just to read it. Of course, if the saud’s tried to play this letter, now, Americans would start screaming about 9/11.
When the ‘episode’ happened in Dubai this summer, again the media went to town and said the Mossad was lame. (Nah.) But Israel still let the image play out in the press. Since why bother to try and stop a tsunami? Eventually, it will all recede. And, europe will face a monetary crisis with its switching to the euro. (Waiting isn’t such a bad idea, after all.)
I’d even venture to guess that there’s a lot known about Obama, now, including that until he was 20, the name he used was Barry Soetoro. He got sworn into office without using this name, though.
Could it throw up a constitutional crisis? Wouldn’t it be up to Chief Justice Roberts to resolve? Sure. He could re-do the oath. Or he could go to ‘plugs,’ in an environment in DC that may already be hostile to the bamster?
Why not take it on the chin from the legacy media? What parade to they advertise that’s successful? Their new one touts “coffee” party as an alternate to tea.
Israel just shrugs. Internally? Bibi remains strong! Isn’t that what politics is all about, when you say “all politics is local?”
The saud’s paid top dollar for real estate when they went on a binge. (Just as Japan did back in the late 1980′s.) Japan hasn’t recovered.
Europe’s going down its own sink hole.
And, wars aren’t what they used to be! If iran can be contained inside her borders, Israel’s knowledge is fluid. Up to date. And, far better than anything the CIA or the FBI develops.
The bamster has an agenda? YES! But he’s already through with Nancy Pelosi, and Rahm Emanuel. He’s burning through his own team. And, it’s hardly likely the people he uses are all that well liked?
I’ve seen LBJ lose his popularity. Ditto Nixon (who took out the republican ‘Taft heir.’ And, Jimmy Carter.) It’s as if we survive in spite of our party politics.
While in Israel there’s more cohesion among the citizens than just about anywhere else. And, yes. They are free to choose.
Carol/5: Where’d you get the info re ‘Barry Soetoro’, up to age 20?
The problem for Tom Friedman is he ignores the main issue: no one in Israel trusts Obama and everyone in Israel believes he has already sold them out, thrown them under the bus.
Israel has already penciled in Susan Powers fantasies of invading Israel to install Hamas as the ruler of all of Israel. Already accounted for Zbigniew Brezinski’s desire to defend Iranian nukes by shooting down Israeli planes and missiles. Well discussed America’s plans under Obama to attack Israel the moment Israel attacks Iranian nuclear facilities.
Everyone in Israel believes Obama would be quite happy, as would most Democrats, with Iran wiping Israel off the map.
So he has no leverage. So Obama might cut off aid to Israel? So what? So Obama might stop military aid to Israel? So what? Israel and the people-leadership nexus in that nation have already figured Obama at best will happily celebrate their incineration by Iranian nukes, and at worst will actively defend Iran against any Israeli strike.
So what exactly does Joe Biden have to complain about? Really? Isreal having been thrown under the bus already, has acted accordingly.
This is the harvest of Obama serially betraying American allies and throwing friends under the bus and never keeping his word: no one trusts him. At all.
Its not just Israel. Britain in the Falklands, India wrt Pakistan, Honduras wrt Cuba and Venezuela and Nicarauga, all will pencil in Obama’s hostility to their existence and interests and act as if he is their enemy, and America there enemy. Because both are in fact true.
When no one trusts you, you have a observable habit of serially betraying friends, you can only get “deals” by massive force. That’s it.
6. Gordon:
Carol/5: Where’d you get the info re ‘Barry Soetoro’, up to age 20?
see–>
http://drorly.blogspot.com/2009/01/proof-obama-went-by-barry-soetoro-at.html
The pre-Great War German General staff was obsessed by the idea of strategic decline and foresaw a bleak future unless they could strike before their enemies grew strong enough to encircle them. It is amazing to consider that the Japanese Empire went to war against the USA to protect their flank against their real war aim: the rubber, tin and oil of the Malay states under the assumption that it was “now or never”. Their fears were self-fulfilling.
It’s probably fair to say that perceived trends in the Middle East are as destabilizing as the actual situations themselves. Whether it is demography, the depletion of oil, the changing balance of nuclear power, the decline of American influence or the rise of the various Islamic radicalisms, it’s the log file not the state table that is probably causing the most anxieties. For an awful lot of people it is “now or never”. The problem is that you can’t do much “now” and “never” is unacceptable.
My guess is that the region just has to work its demons out. Peace will come, if it comes, when it comes. Maybe all Washington can do is keep the whole place from cooking off in the meantime. The mummery of the peace process is a useful tool during the interim, but it is also a terrible driver of expectations. Diplomacy is not only a damper but an accelerator. I hope the current generation of statesmen has the wisdom to walk the tightrope. But realistically you have to worry.
The source of the internal Jewish unity in Israel is the very real threat of:
1) Iran, and its nuclear program
2) Hezbollah, Iran’s proxy in Lebanon
Hezbollah will be able to continue with their spoiling attacks against Israel (wait for the summer campaigning season), while Israel waits out the Iranian development of nuclear weapons.
Netanyahu sits at the top of a parliamentary coalition, with the right-wing Shas party being one of the key players. The Shas minister in charge of construction is the one who knee-capped Sheriff Joe last week. Netanyahu’s control over him is limited.
The only real hope the Palestinian Arabs have of finding a future and prosperity is some kind of partnership with the Israelis, and a lot of them know it, too. The UN and the rest of the Arab world do not really care about these people at all. That’s why there are still “refugees” and “camps” 63 years after partition.
whiskey @ 7: Its not just Israel. Britain in the Falklands, India wrt Pakistan, Honduras wrt Cuba and Venezuela and Nicarauga,
… and Columbia.
So maybe that’s a new Axis of Freedom – UK, India, Honduras, Columbia.
Against?
Jihad.
China.
Russia? Russia selling military junk to India. Hmm.
Very multilateral.
EU – passive, comatose, dead.
The New World Disorder.
So maybe that’s a new Axis of Freedom – UK, India, Israel, Honduras, Columbia.
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where oh where is my edit widget?
Josh- the bi polar Cold War was an anxious time but for fifty years most conflicts were minor and on the fringes. (Not to diminish the wars in VBietnam, Korea and elsewhere – but tanks weren’t rolling across the Fulda Gap.) After the USSR collapsed, the Euros and the American Europhiles didn’t like a unipolar world with America as the sole superpower. Unilateralism-at least with George W Bush as the decider- was a bad idea.
Obama’s chief foreign policy seems to be simply disengagement. This is what a multipolar world looks like. The moral: be careful what you wish for.
There’s a rumor that Hosni Mubarak is dead.
He went to Germany in the first week of March for intestinal surgery. This was done on Saturday, March 6th.
My guess is that the Israelis knew. (Hosni, at age 81) has had serious health problems. Is he alive? Will this be like Fidel Castro, who in fact may not be alive? But the regime keeps on going …
At least, if this is true, Bibi KNEW! Biden? No so much. If it’s not true, why isn’t Hosni Mubarak out of the woods if he’s had “successful surgery?” The ICU? Was for the living. The private room, however, can hold a dead body. For at least a few weeks, no? Egypt is on Internet lockdown. And, Skype has been disabled. If plugs goes to the state funeral ahead, does the bamster still go to Jakarta?
Lolo Soetoro, when he married Stanley Ann Dunham, (and I believe that’s the name she uses on her marriage document to him), had her adopting young Barry. Who went, along with his family, to Indonesia. I’ve seen the documents that put him in school, in Indonesia. And, he was there until about age 19. His mom divorces herself from Lolo at that time. (But it doesn’t undo adoption.) And, I’ve heard rumors that Barry came to Occidental as a foreign exchange student. (The name switching happens later. At Columbia. Where he spent two years on the saud’s dime. Before getting into Harvard.)
My whole point is that he’s denied being Barry Soetoro. What happens if a paper trail comes into view? Would Chief Justice Roberts have to re-administer the Oath? (That’s a question. I’m not a lawyer.) But I bet it would create a crisis!
Dear Enigma at #10. Sherlock of Dubai said that, yes, there’s a dead Mahboo. There’s also claims there was an Israeli stampede at the airport. With at least 27 people coming in, wearing wigs. And, other disguises. They carried passports that weren’t Kosher. (And, probably, it was the entire graduating class at the Mossad, going through some sort of ceremony.)
I wouldn’t count on the UK being with “Israel!” However, the euro is up the swamp. So, ahead, the great united EU may face the reality that some countries want their own money back. England, I think doesn’t use the Euro. But P-U. Just as in the rumor with Mubarak.
You get blindsided if you don’t have great intelligence. As to Hezbollah, most Lebanese would PLOTZ! You talk of summer activity? You mean you didn’t know Beirut loves tourists?
I think most things in print are BS. While I’m apt to look at a rumor very closely. Plugs biden is an idiot. Nancy Pelosi probably doesn’t have the votes. And, what you see isn’t all that united behind the curtains. Knives are out. It will keep the anti-Semites busy enough.
Jim @ 13: Obama’s chief foreign policy seems to be simply disengagement. This is what a multipolar world looks like. The moral: be careful what you wish for.
Obama’s chief policy for life is to vote “present”, and hey, tell me it’s not working for him. Not so much for us. I surely didn’t wish for any Obamanation. Obama just wishes that his teleprompter keeps working until the cigarettes give him cancer and he can go to the hospital on free care for the rest of his miserable life.
The thing is, being a unipolar superpower is a mixed blessing at best. The cost, y’know, and all the world freeloading on us, not sure that was ever a stable configuration nor even desirable.
If Obama and Hillary work hard enough they can get all of the Jews who voted Democrat to stay home in November.
Carol. So what? He is a this or a that, more importantly, he is a hard core leftist who is going to keep screwing things up for the next 2.75 years.
Here I go off topic but still on target to keep America’s current situation clear in everyone’s minds. Pardon the interruption about Israel and Obama’s nefarious plans.
For:
Carol Herman
“The bamster has an agenda? YES! But he’s already through with Nancy Pelosi, and Rahm Emanuel. He’s burning through his own team. And, it’s hardly likely the people he uses are all that well liked?”
The bamster is not quite finished with Nancy. He has one more task for her to accomplish, the most important one of all. To destroy the United States Constitution, and complete his nullification of our great Republic.
Here is one person’s take on what is coming up. It also happens to be mine and thousands of others also. If you can read this without emotion (I can not), then gather your wits back together and try and figure out what we need to do if (and that if is looking more and more like when) they accomplish what they have planned.
Remember what I and many others have been harping on for months? Why exactly does Obama and his democrat gang believe that they can get away with all of this terrible harm they are causing, when they know that elections are coming up and the terrible anger of the American people?
It is becoming more clear.
I usually end with the note to buy more ammo but it’s looking like I should end my screed in this manner, as I have sometimes in the past:
“The Second Amendment is a doomsday provision, one designed for those exceptionally rare circumstances where all other rights have failed – where the government refuses to stand for reelection and silences those who protest; where courts have lost the courage to oppose, or can find no one to enforce their decrees. However improbable these contingencies may seem today, facing them unprepared is a mistake a free people get to make only once.”
2009 Judge Alex Kozinski
Do they actually have the guts and stupidity to go through with this?
Papa Ray
East Jerusalem? As this clearly shows, Ramot Shlomo is basically North of downtown Jerusalem, and a bit west of the center of the city, the Old City. You can say it’s north of the armistice line from 63 years ago, but that’s not a border of anything.
Off to the right, Shoaft is an arab development, and up north, the Beit Haninas are also arab. Further East beyond Shoaft, the several larger Pisgat Ze’ev Jewish developments are standing. Out to the west there are the Jewish areas of Ramot this and Ramot that. South is series of Jewish conclaves.
Everything is inter-mixed up there. The Hebrew University and the big Hadassah hospital are south east of Ramat Shlomo.
This is all in the northern end of Jerusalem, and Ramat Shlomo itself is west of the center of town, the Old City; So how is called East Jerusalem??
Feel free to notice that nobody has told us exactly where the new buildings will be, and what’s there now. It’s clear there’s plenty of empty land there. Here’s a recent photo of Ramat Shlomo.
I speculate the understory here is that Clinton and Biden want to pounce on the Shas party, evict it from the Israeli government and pull in Kadima as a replacement. It might work. There is also speculation that Shas wanted to kick down both the PA and Netanyahu both to obstruct the 2-state plan and make room for Shas to replace Likud at the head of government.
The announcement of a paper plan to build apartments by a minor functionary simply cannot be the real bone of contention.
Israeli-Palestinian Peace is the greased pole that every President since the Six-Day War has been expected by the press and the rest of the Western world to climb, apparently for the amusement of the press and the rest of the Western world. If not a greased pole, it is the mechanical bull set on ’10′ that the most powerful and influential nation on earth is supposed to sit astride and be thrown off after a jarring ride, to at least minor injury, while the onlookers wander off after the show congratulating themselves on not getting on the thing at all. The problem is so thick and knotted that only the United States can solve it, seems to be the assumption, at least from the lack of participation of other nations, who nevertheless see it as something absolutely vital.
Jimmy Carter was smart enough to broker a peace that the Egyptians and Israelis both wanted, a peace that can be kept because there is actually one government on one side and another government on the other that exists in a longitudinal-enough fashion to make a deal worth having. I give GWB credit for not pushing many of our chips into the Israel-Palestine game, Clinton did with the Oslo accords and got bupkis for his efforts. GWB looked at the pole, the steadily-dripping grease spewing from the top, and took an axe to one of the grease lines leading from Iraq. Good for him.
If Obama has any real intention of affecting the peace process, he’ll take an axe to the Iranian grease line. I don’t count on that happening. Like any good progressive convinced of the utility of his words, he will talk, and will accomplish nothing because this is not a kinetic-enough war for both sides to want to be done with it. He will look into the proffered binoculars to see the distant shores of the land of peace, then turn back to the rest of the world with black circles around his eyes. And everyone will laugh, and nothing will change. The Israel-Palestinian Peace process is a running practical joke. I hope there will be a Presidential candidate who will once and for all say “This is not our problem,” and walk away.
Whiskey:
The problem for Tom Friedman is he ignores the main issue: no one in Israel trusts Obama and everyone in Israel believes he has already sold them out, thrown them under the bus.
I don’t always agree with you, but this time I do.
Obama is acting like a man in a hurry, as if he thinks his presidency will end any day now. I get the feeling he is trying to chalk up his diplomatic successes (read: sellouts) as fast as he can before something happens. It’s just that I’m not sure what that “something” really is.
I think the President needs to realize that he’s the captain of our team, and he’s got to fight for America. I don’t think most Americans want some Uncle Tom doing the bidding of a bunch of transnational elitists who’d sell our nation down the river in a heartbeat.
Those who would systematically sell America’s allies down the river would probably sell our nation down the river too.
Fred3,
The Hebrew University and the big Hadassah hospital are south east of Ramat Shlomo
Good point. Israel lived for 19 years with the hospital in an enclave. Redrawing the map and housing patterns to ensure that such situations do not reoccur are essential for any peace settlement. If the Americans were serious about a real agreement they would be assisting in this process. Merely obstructing anything that prevents a return to the intolerable staus quo ante shows that everyone but the Israelis have no interest in ending the conflict.
We have obviously been visited by whiskey‘s twin doppelganger, Lucid Soda. Good analysis.
——-
ALERT!!
The Reconciliation Bill is posted! It is a 2300 pg pdf. http://bit.ly/b5NIaq
Right now Captains and Majors at Quantico must be staring in the mirror and saying, “Dear Lord, why in my life?”
Where the heck did Dennis Ross go? I won’t claim he is a miracle worker but I doubt if Netanyahu would have made the announcement, even though perfectly justified, when the VP was in the country. The annoucement would have been made sooner or later but not at that particular time.
LOTM@#3
When I was about seventeen I had a double date with my high school bud. His girl lived near me and mine lived near him. As I was driving that evening, I stopped to pick up his date first, before proceeding to pick up mine and him. When I knocked on the door of this prominent Jewish family to pick up his date, the girl’s mother answered. “Would you like to meet the President?” she asked. Not having a clue what she was talking about, I said, nonchalantly, “Sure.” She lead me into the sitting room. There, having tea were her husband, and Harry and Bess Truman. They were best friends and had been for years, before Truman was President, and even then in 1963, nearly a decade later.
I don’t know where you got your information about Truman, his wife, and Jews, but I can only say it is dubious, at best. If not for Harry Truman, would there even be a Jewish state?
I know of no other place or situation in the world or in history in which the construction of some houses can yield a reaction similar to that of the installation of nuclear armed ballistic missiles.
Perhaps, given the crossthread-a-bowling-ball competency of the typical Arab state, building houses is an intolerable provcation, because they sure can’t do it themselves.
Meanwile, the people who really are building ballistic missiles with nuclear warheads and have annnounced their intentions to use them are treated with soothing words, outstretched hands, and kid gloves.
That seems to be what Obama is encouraging; ‘The New World Disorder’.
Good comments.
To me the game changer is the American military. The history of the last 100 years is that when they engage, things happen and most of the time, for the good.
The Germans, the Russians, the Japanese, even China all thought that we were as effete as our politics and State Department made us sound. Sadam seems to have made the same mistake.
Now, Al Qaeda and the Taliban are learning a similar lesson.
America may cripple itself, but baring that, we hold a trump, in the US military.
Perhaps tangentially related:
Former Spook at In From the Cold speculates that Sec Def Gates and Mad Jad will meet in Afghanistan as their schedules overlap in that country, possibly to agree to a Grand Bargain.
Why Gates would meet with him and not Sec State HRC, I don’t know.
Bravo RWE! This whole Israel/Palestinian conflict is a sham. If the USA wanted a solution, we should stay the heck out of it. Let the Israelis solve the problem. At this point, all we are is an impediment. With our current administration, being an impediment is the norm in all issues.
whiskey said:
Said to me in the summer of ’08 while in Israel: (I paraphrase) ‘If you elect Obama Israel is on our own and we know it. You will be in great trouble. And the one common thing to us Jews is this and we all agree: “Never Again!” and we do not agree on much – if there are two Jews talking you will find 3 opinions. (in reference to the Shoah)’
So, yes, whiskey, my friend, you are right. Just look to the Hamas Charter:
Those are direct quotes. Want it in Arabic?
Papa Ray: That is the great Pao An! Our blog friend. Thanks for the link to Misha’s and Subotai’s latest.
Remember that Jerusalem was the capital of Jordan until the 1967 war. King Hussein knew a lost cause and agreed to give up his claim and move the Jordanian capital to Amman. Which made Amman which was a “Palestinian” refugee camp a real city. BTW, Hussein was the ONLY Arab to actually absorb the “Palestinians” and make them welcome. No one else did. Not Egypt, nor Lebanon, nor Syria. They all treated and treat “Palestinians” as unwanted and uninvited invaders. Not ‘Brothers-In-Arms’.
BTW, I am now in the DFW metroplex and start the new gig in the AM. Looking for season tickets for Texas Motor Speedway!
Via Drudge:
I suspect these attacks are meant to scare off those who would cooperate with the US or the Calderon Administration against the drug Cartels and corrupt elements of the Mexican government. It also makes the US look weak.
Still, it is surprising that a drug cartel might solicit the assassination of US consular employees. After all, much of their business is conducted in the US. You think they, at least, would fear President Obama’s favorite weapon: sanctions.
I hope the killing of US embassy personnel around the world does not become some sort of fad. But President Obama’s series of apologies to everyone in the world could invite such an outcome. It is one way of saying, “apology not accepted.”
Today I read in The Times of London a long list of snubs and insults by the Obama administration to our traditional allies, which prompted them to comment: “The real problem may be Obama’s personality, which is often described as ‘aloof’.”
I think this is off by a letter. After all, if he were merely aloof then matters would still go on much as before. I think the word that fits is not “aloof” but “agoof.”
After all, a goof is a silly and thoughtless mistake. But it can also be intentional, as in “he is just goofing with you.” In this case a series of seeming minor mistakes is done intentionally by the goofer to cause dismay in the goofee — all for the amusement of third parties. This has the effect of elevating the goofer and demeaning the goofee, even though it is the goofer making the mistakes. It as if President Obama were scratching his nose with his middle finger while discussing NATO, with Russia and China laughing while watching him flip Europe a bird and then deny doing it. Of course, he would then turn around and accuse Israel of doing the same to him.
Now, for the joke to work the goofer must be seen as competent and producing an intended effect. Unfortunately, real mistakes are made and it becomes hard to separate the goofing from the goofs. In other words, the goofer becomes a goofball — and US foreign policy becomes “agoofed.”
Something very similar is happening domestically. In fact, the entire Democratic Party is fast becoming agoofed. Too bad they are also ruining the nation.
This is my most charitable interpretation of events.
I will believe that there is hope for a Mideast peace deal when Israelis are offered Khaybar in exchange for the West Bank and the right to return to Medina.
cdor,
Michael Beschloss is the main expounder of the theory. There are many responses on Bing to a query. Here is one,
http://www.wymaninstitute.org/articles/2007-7-truman-antisemitic.php
Personally I think HST rose above his origins and learned how to both get along in public and judge individuals shrewdly. The question wasn’t whether they would associate with Jews, clearly he did, but whether Jews were allowed in Mrs Truman’s house. I have seen anecdotes that some did visit them and others, chiefly derived from Beschloss quoting Susskind, that there was a boundary.
There is no doubt that he grew up in an atmosphere soaked in racial and social bitterness as a legacy of the Civil War. Remember that he was as close to that conflict as someone born in the 60s would be to WW-II or someone born in the 90s would be to Vietnam.
ManuelLabor,
Yes, just call it Yathrib, otherwise perfect.
Remember all this noise about housing in Jerusalem came after the Arabs made outraged statements that there was no historical Jewish connection with Rachel’s Tomb. They continue to desecrate the Temple Mount, destroying priceless archeological artifacts in their effort to create a myth that there was no Jewish presence in Palestine. While these facts from 3,000 years ago may seem peculiar to Americans today they are very important to the people there. The Arabs and the Left are united in trying to subvert reality and prove that they have the power to do so. That is why they expend such efforts to substitute a false history for reality.
Something I read in the last few days but cannot remember the URL:
“To the Arabs, Israel is a slave revolt, and must be put down.”
ADE
Wretchard:
The entire conflict between Israel and the Palestinians cannot be solved by peaceful means. The reason for this is what I call a maximum-minimum paradox: The maximum concessions Israel can realistically make are less than the minimum concessions the Palestinains demand. The demand for a “right of return” on the part of the Palestinians, by itself is a demand for Israel to commit demographic (and eventually physical) suicide. As for territorial demands, since there was no peace when all of the currently disputed lands were in Arab hands, why should anyone believe there would be peace if those lands were once again in Arab hands?
Whiskey:
I believe your analysis regarding Obama and Israel is entirely correct. He has effectively abandoned Israel to an Iran that will soon have a nuclear arsenal and certainly has the will to use it. He should not be surprised if Israel chooses to take matters into her own hands. That inevitably means war, since sanctions against an oil producing country are quite useless.
Why was the meeting ended so abruptly?
Remember that Jerusalem was the capital of Jordan until the 1967 war.
Um, no. Jerusalem was never the capital of Jordan. (Nice idea, though.)
Hint: Look up “Amman” in Wikipedia.
As for Obama, well, he’s gonna tell the Israel Lobby where to get off. He’s gonna tell the Israel Lobby who’s the boss. And even if that means weakening America’s other allies—and endangering America (which must be the inevitable outcome, even assuming it hasn’t been part of the plan all along), well, he’s still going to tell that Israel Lobby who’s the boss. You hear that, Israel Lobby?!!
Walt & Mearsheimer rule. Get used to it. (But not to worry: W&M are American patriots who also care deeply about the Jewish State.)
Nor should one overlook the fact that Obama is a deep thinker.
For years, America has allied itself with Israel.
And look where we are! No peace, endless conflict. Unhappy Palestinians. Trillions of dollars down the tubes. Uppity Jews. Grumbling Arabs. Even Ahminedjad doesn’t want to be our friend….(or Chavez, for that matter). IT’S NOT RIGHT, NOT AT ALL.
Ergo, it is time for some revolutionary thinking to end that alliance.
Hope and Change!
Yes, Obama is a deep thinker.
And if you’re not convinced, look at it another way: America is being criticized: How can such a smart superpower support several millions of Jews against several hundred millions of Arabs?! Does that make any sense at all? (OK, granted, the US also supports Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Morocco, a Palestinian State—but it is vital that this be overlooked; after all, the Arabs prefer to overlook it, having other goals in mind.) No sir. A smart superpower should make it clear that it supports several hundred millions of Arabs. That is really the only sensible thing to do. Isn’t that what smart superpowers like Britain did? Like France? Like the USSR? Why shouldn’t America learn from them?!! Clearly, it’s only the power of the Jews (and the Israel Lobby) that’s preventing America from following its own interest. Jews.
(Come to think of it, there are scads of deep thinkers out there.)
But most seriously, the Jewish State is endangering Obama’s plan to bring peace to the region.
To enable peace to descend upon the Middle East.
To bring to fruition—FINALLY—the impossible dream.
It is in Obama’s hand. We will all be able to bask in his achievement and his glory.
Except for the ^#&%$(@ Israelis. Likudniks.
Netanyahu.
Jews.
Those saboteurs who are single-handedly sabotaging the Master Plan.
Standing in the way of history. Doing their best to make sure the Great One fails.
They must be dealt with, accordingly.
You know, every time a troll makes a post here, it stands out in sharp contrast to the elegant, informed, intelligent posts sprinkled all around it. Instantly recognizable.
EU/US demand no Jews in parts of Jerusalem!
US/EU demand terror state like Iran be established on the West Bank/Gaza;…
… while the US/EU claim to be at war (Iraq/Afghan) with the same terrorist they demand set up a state on the West Bank/Gaza.
One can only conclude that the US/EU soldiers are in fact human sacrifice to the Islime G-d and that this war is in fact a phoney “nice Long lasting War and sell lots of weapons” exactly as I informed every member of congress between 1989-1991. c 1991 getty…
We send army men to die fighting people; while we demand that that same enemy/people set up a terror state on the West Bank and Gaza exactly like the States we are fighting/human sacrifice…this is “bazaar…
The US: with friends like this who needs enemies…
Biden Friedman and the idiot Obama should form some circus group because they are out of depth in the realities of the world and don’t know the truth even if they spoke it themselves (yes it is very possible they never have …at least intentional spoken the truth)
VIVA ISRAEL
Israel is the only participant in the effort to live in peace with it’s neighbors.
there would be peace if the Arab groups wanted peace ..they do not. even if they had the whole of the middle east there would be no peace.
VIVA ISRAEL …my regards to the Israeli’s
Now Jay Getty is close to the rub.
When the US military realises that it is being taken for the ride of its life, what then??? When we all know what is afoot, but nobody can say. When we all know that our CIC can’t articulate the reason for the sacrifice. Then his Kowtow to the Saudi King. When we’re broke, and the butt-arse joke of the world for believing in principle.
Post on that, BCers.
ADE
The “Palestinians” can have peace anytime they want it. When they have given up Jihad. With Bibi they are making economic progress, travel has been eased, life is getting better. Must worry the hell out of Fatah, time for an intifada.
What, exactly, have the Arabs given up in the peace process?
Norm-I thought it was sarcasm until I noticed the one thing trolls seem genetically commanded to do and that is use the all caps key for emphasis!
For all of his spelling mistakes, (was he two sheets to the wind?), Whiskey has the analysis on the money. I almost thought he was reading my mind!
Hey bartender, order me another shot of Whiskey for everybody in the house – put it on my tab!
Given the yawning gap between the existential requirements of Israel and the aspirations of the backers of a Palestinian state, a peace settlement is not happening any time soon.
It was reported over the weekend that education, Hamas style, is still focused on inculcating in the 6-year old child’s mind the glory of killing Jews.
You think Hamas and Hezbollah are ever going to back down with the agenda of eradicating the state of Israel ? Ever ?
These groups are only interested in the opinion of the “international community” to the extent that intimidation of Israel by said community can further their agenda.
Sending Joe Biden over there to yak some more and Hillary Clinton’s feigned outrage over East Jerusalem settlements just seems like more blowing in the wind.
7. whiskey:
When no one trusts you, you have a observable habit of serially betraying friends, you can only get “deals” by massive force. That’s it.
….
So why did Biden choose now to do the peace walk to Jerusalem?
Might be because the O’s thought they had bought themselves some political capital with what looks like the success of massive force in Afghanistan.
(Never mind that US wars in the afpak theater have as much to do with Israel as recent nigherian christian killings–except in the general sense that there is no peace anywhere between moslems and non moslems.
The fact is that the Palis have given up nothing at all.
When the Isrealis pulled out of Gaza they were given a thriving greenhouse business(worth billions, I have heard) and what did they do with it? They stripped it of its fixtures and burned the rest to the ground.
Why work when you can get UN money for free and spend your time dressing your babies as homicide-bombers and making missles to shoot at schoolchildren?
I think that in the end there will be peace, but it will be the peace of the graveyard.
Haven’t you Americans figured out that Obama is an islamic mole yet?
Norm
“You know, every time a troll makes a post here, it stands out in sharp contrast to the elegant, informed, intelligent posts sprinkled all around it. Instantly recognizable.”
Are you talking about Barry? I thought it was good…no, very good and deserving of praise not scorn.
But that’s just me I guess. What exactly didn’t you like?
“You know, every time a troll makes a post here, it stands out in sharp contrast to the elegant, informed, intelligent posts sprinkled all around it. Instantly recognizable.”
OH…you mean like mine?
Don’t worry, it is all just words. You understand?
Nothing but words.
Papa Ray
P.S. Yes, some of us have figured out that Obama has deep Islamic roots and beliefs but what difference does that make?
NONE, because he is still the President and will be (it looks like) for quite some time. A lot longer if he and his backers get their way, and it looks like they will as soon as Nancy destroys what is left of our Constitution.
News is only worth something until everyone knows it.
Debka.com is reporting this morning that al-Maliki, Iraq’s American candidate has been moderately to seriously wounded in an ambush. America depends upon people with no guaranteed life span.
Israel is alive and well.
Just channeling (or trying to channel) what I take to be the “thought processes” motivating POTUS and his merry band.
A bit scary, I admit (but not entirely, alas, unrealistic).
Apologies….
Apologies….
None needed, well except for those that read words, just words and still don’t get that they are just words…
Right…? Just use the the appropriate tags for those that are a little slow at understanding…words.
But everyone had better be able to understand these words:
Constitution Be Damned…
Because there are words and then there are…
FIGHTING WORDS!
Papa Ray
Did you catch the CAPS and the BOLD – WORDS?
Just words.
Looking at the whole mess it stikes me that Obama and Co. approach the Mid-East the same way that they approach the “taxable rich”. They believe (for some reason) that there is an unlimited supply of leeway that they can tap into and abuse. It does not occur to them that they have consumed the design-margin and the system that has been their world (for their brief and uncontemplative life-span)is rapidly nearing collapse.
They will continue to grind away until they have exhausted every bit of good will and good faith. Then they will look about and wonder why nobody listens to, or trusts them (and by default the US).
It will be decades before any responsible government places any trust in the US, assuming that we emerge from the coming crisis as the US (or some similar construct).
Israel should give the PA 30 days to return to good faith negotiations with a clear condition that any rocket attacks from any location will end the talks. If the talks end then the Israelis should annex the Bethlehem district. They actually meant to back in 1967 and neglected to in one of History’s great clerical errors. They should announce that no person whose family was not resident in that district prior to 1967 will be permitted to live there without a special hard to obtain permit. In the last 30 years Bethlehem has gone from over 80% Christian to 95% Moslem. This act of religious cleansing by the Palestinians has gone without response by the post-Christian West.
Given that they have no protectors in the face of Islamist triumphalism it makes sense for Arab Christians to adopt the status of dhimmis. Israel tried once to position itself as the protector of the Christians in the region when they invaded Lebanon about 30 years ago, and that effort was not successful. While Christianity may be resurgent and Islam in decline in Africa, as we explored on an earlier thread, in the Middle East the native Christian communities after 2,000 years may be running out of time.
It is true that many of the leaders of extremist movements in the Arab world come from the minority Christian community. That may be an example of a larger phenomenon. Revolutionary leaders may often come from members of marginalized groups seeking to prove themselves. Our resident Kremlin apologist is quick to point out that Stalin was a Georgian. Napoleon was a Corsican whose cradle language and love letters were Italian. Perhaps the larger pattern is that of minority entrepreneurs, think of like Korean grocers in New York, Chinese merchants in South East Asia, Indian merchants in East Africa, Jewish merchants anywhere, who can see a path to opportunities where those who are part of the rooted forest only see other trees.
To be blogged under the title “Bethlehem Woods.”
O/T Gitmo’s Indefensible Lawyers
John Adams is spinning in his grave.
Regarding “announcements about expanding settlements,” a “senior Obama administration official” told Reuters that “the Israelis know the only way to stay on the positive side of the ledger — internationally and with us — is to not have them recurring.”
Maybe Israel should just forget about maintaining any so called positive side of the ledger with the current administration in Washington DC.
For more than four months the U.S. government has been celebrating Israel agreeing to stop construction on settlements in the West Bank while continuing building in east Jerusalem as a great step forward…
Obama’s Appalling Double Standards
I think I can further develop a political theme that I first identified a couple of days ago – maybe it can turn into a movement.
I now know exactly what I want our Palestinian/Isreali Peace policy to be from now on – I want a President who will swear that he ain’t gonna do shit for 4 years. When the Euro’s ask him what he plans to do about the “problem”, I want him to reply “not a g–damned thing.” No special envoys, no conferences, no shuttle diplomacy, no nothing. And when hearts on their sleeves activists cry “but what’s going to happen???” I want him to say “don’t know, don’t care, but I imagine they’ll work something out between themselves. And if they don’t, well then it’s their problem, not ours, isn’t it?”
And the Trump Card is that I will be willing to bet a big chunk of change that this policy will in fact have a far greater chance of producing a real peace than anything all the envoys and conferences and hand wringing will ever come up with in 100 years.
Has something to do with the observation that when you stop paying people to maintain a problem, the problem usually goes away on its own.
“Friedman’s article is accidentally nearer the mark than he imagines when he describes how Biden should have thrown a tantrum, because theater is what it is all about. The ‘peace process’ is really a process: a mime show of appearing to do something.”
……..
“The wars fought in 1948, 1956, 1965 and 1973 have brought no solution. Neither have the intifdadas.”
Oh, nice one, Wretchard! That rarest thing — a really original pun. Set up by the context! And so subtle it traveled under the radar, concealed as a typo.
As others have noted, there would be peace instantly between Israel and the Arabs if the Arabs stopped waging war against Israel.
President Obama’s foreign policy is to support dictators and enemies of the United States and to attack allies, especially democracies – e.g., to support Putin’s Russia and to attack Poland and the Czech Republic, to send Guantanamo prisoners to Bermuda without the consent of Britain, to support Hugo Chavez against Columbia, to support Communist China against the Dalai Lama, as well as to attack Israel. He treated the Prime Minister of Great Britain like dirt, returning the bust of Winston Churchill. I interpret that to mean that he would have sided with Nazi Germany against Great Britain. His bow before the the King of Saudi Arabia shows his attitude to democracies.
Calling any Arabs “Palestinians” is the effect of Soviet propaganda, when the Soviet Union and Nasser invented the “Palestine Liberation Organization” in Cairo in 1964. “Palestinian” has meant “Jew” since the Roman Emperor Hadrian changed the name of Judea to “Palestina” in 135 A.D, after defeating the last Jewish uprising under Bar Kochba. Since then, “Palestine” meant “land of the jews” or “the Holy Land” (Jesus having been a Jew), which is why the Zionists wanted the “Palestine Mandate” and why Great Britain got the “Palestine Mandate” as “homeland for the Jews.”
wws @ 62: Has something to do with the observation that when you stop paying people to maintain a problem, the problem usually goes away on its own.
On that basis I would like to nominate you for the nobel peace prize, if you don’t mind hanging out with some of the previous recent winners.
of course, another paid to maintain problem is the Palestinians themselves.
59. Lifeofthemind:
It is true that many of the leaders of extremist movements in the Arab world come from the minority Christian community.
That is a fascinating statement. I’d appreciate it if you’d point me to some additional information. I must confess that I’m unaware of more than a possible few Arab leaders of extremist movements who come from the Christian community. (perhaps the Phalangists in Lebanon?!) Of course, as with that example, much depends upon the relative criteria for the terms many and extremist.
#57 PAPA RAY
I have read many of your posts, several of which end with an appeal to “buy more ammo.” LOL!
You’re a real tough talker, but without a clue!
Maybe you have a dozen M-15s or M-4s? And you think that these will turn the tide for America? LOL
Helpful hint – When push comes to shove, there are very few Americans who will do what your pom-pom rah-rahs are calling on them to do! And even if a number of them do, keeping them in line for “the cause” will most likely end in chaos and fear, which doesn’t bode well for the revolutionary in the minds of the greater public. In fact, under such chaos/fear I’d bet a few $$$ that yours is more bark than bite!
The Obama is moving fast…much faster than election politics can contain. He won’t abide by teaparties or public opinion, or even his henchmen/women, and by November 2010 it will be too late for election politics to counter.
“Let’s roll” might work when there are only 100+ people involved. But 307 million is another matter. Either way, something crashes.
Given the yawning gap between the existential requirements of Israel and the aspirations of the backers of a Palestinian state, a peace settlement is not happening any time soon. The current problems are too fundamental.
That’s fancy talk for saying, the Palestinians don’t want peace, will not accept peace, and anything, ANYTHING, Israel gives up “for peace” is a mistake.
Should the Palestinian desires change – should they even PRETEND to want a peace that will leave Tel Aviv in Israeli sovereignty – then there might be a peace process. But over the last year or so, the Palestinians, for whatever tactical, strategic, religious, or pathological reasons, have decided to take the position that Israel is not a valid state, and that is the ONLY basis they have advanced for negotiation. How Obama and Clinton and Joe-Bob can berate Israel now, until the Palestinians have at least returned to the pretenses (!) that Arafat used to advance (in English, he pretty nearly always contradicted them in Arabic), it is an outrage for the US to pressure Israel at all, on any point whatsoever.
Have a nice day.
Jerry @ 55 said:
“News is only worth something until everyone knows it. Debka.com is reporting…”
Years ago, when Debka first appeared, they were a very interesting information source. My guess is that someone within the Israeli national security apparatus was engaging in loose talk at the dinner table and an unethical relative was repeating the stories at the Debka website in hope of making a quick buck. (Un)fortunately that security hole has since been plugged and all that comes out of Debka is either idle fantasy or disinformation.
tanstaafl @ 61 said:
“Maybe Israel should just forget about maintaining any so called positive side of the ledger with the current administration in Washington DC.”
The best thing Israel could do would be to ignore Obama and do what they think is in their own best interests. Obama will be an unpleasant memory in a little over three years time so he’s not worth the trouble of appeasing.
anton @ 52 said:
“I think that in the end there will be peace [with the Palis], but it will be the peace of the graveyard.”
Years ago before they started hijacking airliners and murdering innocent people, I was indifferent towards the Palestinians. I regarded Sirhan Sirhan’s murder of Robert Kennedy as the act of an isolated fanatic and did not connect him to the Palestinians. However the Palestinian’s little stunt at the 1972 Summer Olympics strongly suggested that the Palestianians were without redeeming quality. Any lingering doubt was removed when I saw them dancing in the streets after the 9/11 outrage. The Palestinians have done an excellent job of making themselves hated by the world. IMHO, the Israelis can deal with them as they please.
I, and many others, believe in a different “dry bones theory”- the dry bones of Ezekiel 37.
yes, a bunch of words.
The israelis are getting bombed every day, thousands in a year.
Obama is a Muslim stooge if nothing else.
the palestinians danced in the street on 9/11
so, uh, screw them
we cannot get rid of the obamanation soon enough.
as far as israel/palestine:
the only solution is to separate them. put the palestinians in a single geographic area.
then make it clear (somehow) to the rest of the world, if the muslim/arab ‘brethren’ truly care, they will help the palleys improve their std of living
PAthena @ 64 said:
““Palestinian” has meant “Jew” since the Roman Emperor Hadrian changed the name of Judea to “Palestina” in 135 A.D, after defeating the last Jewish uprising under Bar Kochba. Since then, “Palestine” meant “land of the jews” or “the Holy Land” …”
I do not believe this correct. The word “Palestinian” is derivative from the Assyrian word “Palastu” and the Hebraic word “Plishtim” which is a word used in the Bible to signify the Philistines. The Philistines are of course the ancient enemies of the Jews. The modern Palestinians are Arabs who migrated into the area after the Jews were expelled.
It is true that the Emperor Hadrian renamed the province of Judea to Palestine after crushing the Bar Kochba uprising. Hadrian did this after slaughtering or expelling all circumcised Jews from Judea. The Bar Kochba revolt was a consequence of the prior Second Temple Uprising that resulted in Jerusalem being razed to the ground and replaced with an entirely new city named “Colonia Aelia Capitolina”. This new city was a Roman colony intended to be inhabited by discharged Roman legionnaires. This is an important point, that the Jerusalem of today was built upon the ruins of a Roman City. The original Jewish city along with the Temple of Solomon was destroyed (the city of Jesus was obliterated). As an interesting aside, the Dome of the Rock at Jerusalem was at various times a Christian church and was probably built upon the ruins of a Roman temple dating back to Colonia Aelia Capitolina.
Tharkun @ #66 — Noted rock-chucker Edward Said came from a Protestant background, I believe. (Of course how much time he spent in “Palestine” is open for debate.:)) He certainly fits the pattern of the “manufactured” radical, one who internalizes the gestures of the oppressed in order stabilize a less-than-coherent personality. (Besides, as Whiskey would remind us, chicks dig that urbane rage.)
Papa Ray: don’t feed the new troll sir… people that haven’t seen the elephants are just talking out their exits. Besides, 5.56 is for the wife and kids
Make mine 7.62×51. Had to go with a CETME though… lots cheaper than an M1-a.
There are some great comments here. All can be boiled down to a couple of points.
1- Nobody wants the Palestinians, sometimes it seems not even the Palestinians want the Palestinians. They are the “ghetto dwellers” of the Middle East, and when speaking of the Middle East, that is saying something.
2- We can never solve the problem between Israel and the Palestinians unless Israel should simply disappear, which isn’t happening. So, trying to mend a fence that can never be mended is foolish. What the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
3- The only way we get them out of this cycle of violence is to end our assistance. Stop paying for terrorism. Money is fungible. We give “aid” money to them and some terrorist is buying mortar rounds the next day with the freed up cash. However, if they get hungry enough, fed up with their leaders lining their own pockets (Wasn’t there a big dust up over Arafat’s accounts? I think I read his personal accounts held hundreds of million if not more in cash. All siphoned off from “aid” we gave them.)and desperate enough, the people will change. We could tie aid to their teachings, for example stop teaching children to hate Jews or want to grow up a suicide bomber. Seriously, why are we spending a dime on a people who raise their kids to die killing other kids. That is seriously messed up.
We support Israel, tell the rest of the Middle East too bad and move on. You’d be surprised how quickly they would agree. Do you think Saudi, Dubai or Jordon would trade the billions of dollars of commerce they get from the west for a land dispute involving the Palestinians?
Like I said, outside some eggheads in D.C. who float between private think tanks and public office, nobody really cares about the Palestinians anyway except for what they can get out of it.
Just an opinion on how to try something different.
LFMayor, I’m not looking to be fed. And even a .308, or a dozen, won’t do it my friend! But you go ahead and keep reading those stacks of Soldier of Fortune magazines, and live the fantasy!
74. Sertorius:
Thanks for the information on Said – that’s one for the count towards many…
Does Barack Obama give a damn about us?
Unlike George W Bush and Bill Clinton, Obama has made little effort to strike up friendships with European leaders. At the G20 summit in Pittsburgh last year he was pictured walking out with the leaders of China and India, his administration’s evident priorities, along with Russia, at the expense of America’s traditional allies.
Something to consider if one thinks about getting through any shtf moments in our future: a factor in favor of having a good sized stock of ammunition is that it may turn out to be a far more reliable form of currency than dollars or whatever monopoly credits/government IOU’s are being tossed about at the time. Could even be better than gold since unlike gold, ammo has the benefit of actually being useful. It’s uniquely suited for this purpose since it lasts a long time without too much care (keep it dry is about all) and it can be traded in small discrete units or in bulk. Gold always has the problem of “how do I keep my greedy neighbors from just taking it away from me?” Ammo comes with it’s own obvious answer to that question.
Looked at as a trading vehicle, the most commonly used calibres would be the most valuable, since they would have the highest demand. I’m sure rates of exchange for other goods would be set up overnight.
And the other way to get through something like this is for any of y’all who aren’t in Texas already to get here as quick as possible. The rest of the world can go to hell and Texas will be okay – we produce our own energy, we can grow our own food, we had our own army once and can put one back together again if it’s necessary. Just make sure and do it before we close our borders to all the hungry locusts that’ll be out there.
AWM, wws Strong and true words. I have asked libs the same questions about their kids and grandkids and it is like asking a 2 y/o why they pee their pants instead of using the potty.
Yep, barter will be the new game in town for sure. I have been using barter for decades and have instructed my kids and grand kids in this almost lost method of payment, and way of doing business.
OH…who said I had guns? Like I have told you and told you, I have Sheriff’s reports on everyone of them that has been stolen.
Papa Ray
That particular tradeoff is definitely a get-what-you-pay-for situation, though.
I believe Bibi picked this fight, because he wanted to stop plugs Biden right away! As to ‘visits,’ the one that still sticks in the craw of many Israelis is Menachem Begin’s trip to Jimmy Carter. There’s this legacy that it wasn’t worth it. And, Menachem Begin wasn’t the man he was supposed to be.
History just keeps tossing in more twigs.
While Bibi CHOSE THIS LINE OF DEFENSE! So, plugs came nearly two hours late for a state dinner. And, then Hillary squawked. Two people whose opinions don’t amount to a hill of beans.
While I think Bibi knows that Mubarak is either very sick, or already refrigerated. And, what Bibi knows he keeps under his hat.
This “fight” over building in Israel? You think the bamster’s opinions carry weight? I don’t. I think he’s accomplished nada. And, I think the democraps are going to be in for some sort of rude awakening come November.
To Bibi this was an easy call. Just like it was an easy call to let Sherlock, in Dubai, have his say so. Meanwhile, the bad guy is dead, there. And, maybe the Mossad had a graduation party where everyone had to show up in disguise. To test their system. While flooding it with so many people they spent days looking at the video footage of disguised people. Oh, yeah. Just stay out of the media’s way and their stories blow away with the winds.
#79 AWM
Didn’t LL3 once say something eloquent about “Us vs. Them” on the Belmont Club?
You guys and your clinging to your guns, using them to draw lines between us and them. Pathetic!
Someone else once said it, “He who lives by the sword will die by the sword!” But I guess he didn’t understand 18th and 21st century American Democracy!
BUY MORE AMMO!!! Yeah…right!
The PA certainly does not want a peace deal. They’d be destroyed in weeks by Hamas. So there’s that.
But forget Israel per se, for the moment, though Obama instructed Hillary to call Israel an “insult to America” … nice way of destroying Hillary btw. Who went for it because she too shares dislike of Israel and lets face it, Jews. Who are fairly well hated by the core of the Democratic Party: Blacks, Mexicans, Gays, and elite SWPL rich yuppies, and of course women.
But forget all that.
WHAT influence does Obama have in restraining former allies? How will Obama prevent Israel from attacking Iran with a first-strike nuclear attack designed to make Iran unable to complete nuclear development?
Since no one in Israel can react with anything but laughter to Obama’s “promise” to protect Israel from Iranian nukes. And Obama has shown serially he throws all sorts of nations under the bus as long as they are traditional US allies, in his haste to hug enemies.
How will Obama prevent Poland, or the Czech Republic, or Columbia, from getting nukes as quickly as possible to prevent being invaded (again)? How will Obama restrain India from simply attacking Pakistan? How will Obama prevent Israel, India, and Russia from cooperating against Pakistan, Iran, and other regional threats with the next generation stealth fighter in development? How will Obama, retreating from American power, influence, and protection, restrain a naval race between India and China in the Indian Ocean and around the Gulf, Africa, and Straights of Malacca?
What does he have?
He has, and only has, the threat of direct, absolute invasion by the US of former allies, as discussed by Obama National Security Adviser Susan Power.
I can definitely see that happening, under a Democratic Congress, but only once. Congressional Dems would authorize (or refuse to cut off funds for it same thing) an invasion of Israel to destroy it and protect Iran/Hamas/Hezbollah. It would be supported by the Obama-worshipping media, you’d be “racist” if you did not support it, and it would be successful in destroying Israel and creating a genocidal Hamas-run state that would shortly liquidate every Jew it could find.
But it’s a one-off process. It would destroy the Democratic Party, completely, and likely result in Obama’s impeachment. It would put America alone, distrusted by an regional partner or potential ally. Leaving America no choice but to “nuke or go home.” That is, use nukes to destroy totally any enemy people governed by an enemy faction or even partially held by an enemy faction (Iran, Pakistan, Saudi, Egypt, etc.) or simply surrender and withdraw.
I do think that Obama would order an invasion of Israel in response to it nuking/attacking Iran. This is why he chose Susan Power and not say, Alan Dershowitz, as his National Security advisor. Most Democratic politicians and the base would support it. Certainly Blacks would be overwhelmed with joy at the destruction of Israel. [David Duke lives in deserved poverty in a trailer park in Louisiana. Farrakhan has a mansion to rival Oprah's, and Rev. Wright has built a $5 million mansion in a gated community overlooking a golf course -- both built on 12.5% of the population compared to Duke getting what he gets from about 66% of the population. Objectively, Blacks therefore if one "follows the money" are the most virulently racist group in America.]
But most of America, being White and middle class, would overwhelmingly reject this. Not because middle class White America is overcome with love for Israel or Jews, but because they see a common enemy and common Western, civilizational values. Not the least of which is a rejection of Polygamy and sharia.
Obama, however, does not care. He hates Britain, reflexively, because it imprisoned his Mau-Mau terrorist grandpa for killing Whites, more than half a century ago. He hates Israel because it is a Jewish state, and as a man raised a Muslim and one who made his career in South Side Chicago, he shares neighbor Farrakhan (just around the corner from his own mansion) and mentor/spiritual advisor/surrogate father Rev. Wright’s attitudes towards Jews, Whites in general, and so on. That’s not unusual. Most Blacks share that attitude — its how Al Sharpton, Rev. Wright, Jessie Jackson, and above all Louis Farrakhan became fabulously wealthy men.
Right now, the coalition of Blacks, Hispanics, Gays, SWPL rich yuppies, and women (particularly single women) is fracturing, not just on ObamaCare but on national security. Blacks, Hispanics, Gays, and some of the SWPL back Obama’s reflexive “let’s stick it to White guys/allies” out of personal spite, racism, and so on. Other groups of SWPL find this nerve-wracking because they can see the logical outcome: nuke or go home. With likely going home first, and then the nuking (as aggressive factions within states pursue a fleeing America home as in 9/11). Nuking to the point of the Third Conjecture.
Women, the critical balance point of any coalition, are not there yet. But women dislike insecure, chaotic, violence-prone situations. Obama offers even less security and results than GWB. Its hard to be fabulous and shop for shoes when there is a prospect of a brutal, global war escalating to the US. Obama still has women because he’s the Big Man worshipped by the Press, the Media, the celebrities. That counts for a lot. He’s Edward Cullen from Twilight, a sparkly vampire every woman wants. Even better, he’s Black, with perceived greater attributes of masculinity, intellect, self-control, and so on. He has a lot of lee-way. But it is not infinite and starting to come apart.
PJM is hosting ever more obnoxious pop-up ads.
Off topic but interesting. The following link indicates that a build-up maybe taking place for destroying Iran’s nuclear capability:
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/world-news/final-destination-iran-1.1013151
This story could be pure fabrication or an example of disinformation to confuse the Iranians.
Politically, Obama has painted himself into a corner with the health care stupidity. Also, the economy appears poised to double dip. An economic double dip coupled with failure to enact Obamacare means a one term presidency for the Messiah and the end in November of Democrat control of the Congress. Attacking Iran might be the Messiah’s only option for political salvage.
Testing …
Over at Powerline the fellas noted a list of peremptory demands SecState Clinton delivered to the Israelis re: the settlement announcements. Not that unusual in and of itself, but the list includes things like:
3. Make a substantial gesture toward the Palestinians enabling the renewal of peace talks. The Americans suggested that hundreds of Palestinian prisoners be released, that the Israel Defense Forces withdraw from additional areas of the West Bank and transfer them to Palestinian control, that the siege of the Gaza Strip be eased and further roadblocks in the West Bank be removed.
4. Issue an official declaration that the talks with the Palestinians, even indirect talks, will deal with all the conflict’s core issues – borders, refugees, Jerusalem, security arrangements, water and settlements.
Maybe its just me, but this conjures up Hitler’s “negotiations” with Eastern Europe in the years leading up to 1939 – a bad-faith sham designed to wring concessions from the non-aggressor. I’m disgusted it’s now the U.S. demanding “negotiation” concessions like this, on behalf of fanatics who have no desire for peace. How far can we fall before we hit bottom? I suspect we may find out.
Americans should be ashamed of themselves for having voted in this no-account loser just because he’s (partly) black.
He’s destroying the USA and the USA is letting him…
The USA has lost all respect for itself.
Kirk: I hear you there… would love to have a socom 16″. (I actually have 10 M14 mags, bought them for the big purchase that hasn’t come yet) I don’t need all that extra quad rail crap, just a place to put an LER scope on a quick release mount.
I blew the money on laser eyeball surgery instead. 20/10 in both now, with no correction. I highly recommend it if you’re nearsighted.
The CETME does okay… I saddle scoped it and get fair results. I have an Ishaphore scoped for the detail work, hand smoothed the sear and the bolt raceway, she’s slick and groups tight.
AWM, Papa Ray. Right beside you, gentlemen. All the interest due: from the shambles of the VA hospitals, to the spitting on returning vets to the fleecing of the retirement funds paid by millions. All the interest due. Lead and brass are going to be as useful as gold in the future, anyways, so stock up folks!
But enough of the “Solidier of Fortune” talk. We’ll get all the crap birds identified day one and work our way forward from there. That’s when we’ll see who really swings the hammer instead of just writing about it.
Now run along, frantic little troll, before you read something that frightens you. The old saying goes, play with matches, then you wet the bed…
Make a substantial gesture toward the Palestinians …
Yeah, the same gesture Obama keeps “accidentally” making towards the cameras.
For heuristic purposes let us consider whiskey‘s scenario of a US military confrontation with Israel. First his argument that Netanyahu has achieved the groundwork for an alliance of Israel India and Russia to contain Islam, and also presumably China is belied by both the continued functioning of the Shanghai Cooperation Council, which is the Anti-American Axis, and more importantly the fact of the Russian naval base in Syria. If the Israelis actually pulled off a diplomatic coup that gives them security despite a hostile America I would be impressed. The reality seems far grimmer.
If the US was to use military force against Israel the conventional, leaving nuclear out for now, forces available are in three locations.
1. US based Strategic assets including the 82nd Airborne and long range bombers.
2. CENTCOM assets, which since they are already in combat cover the full range of air, land and naval units
and support.
3. The 6th Fleet and Air Force TacAir in Europe.
The US based assets are superb but the logistical thread is already stretched by inadequate refueling assets. Israel though has no way of intercepting any hostile movement while it is still out of area.
The US could order Air Force units in Turkey, which are Nato assigned, Iraq, which are slated for withdrawal, and Kuwait and the Gulf to engage the Israelis. Iran may take advantage of such an opportunity to move into a vacuum. It would add to the poignancy of the imagery if American military forces hosted in Islamic countries attacked the Jewish State. The diversion of any CENTCOM forces and the disruption of the supply chain could place our forces in Afghanistan under greater pressure. In the worst case air or even land forces approaching Israel would be approaching in a manner and over ground the Israelis are familiar with. While the Americans would ultimately have an overwhelming advantage the Israelis would be able to respond most effectively to an attack from the East.
The most obvious forces available for pressuring Israel would be the Air Force units in Italy and the Naval units in the Mediterranean. To counter the later Israel has an inadequate number of very effective submarines. Some American officers have been hostile to Israel since the USS Liberty incident in 1967 and the Jonathon Pollard espionage case. The question becomes that if ordered to move against Israel what will CINCUSNAVEUR do? What will COMSIXFLT do, and so on?
My expectation is that orders will be obeyed, a few Jewish officers may be sent for special training in the week before any confrontation and word might be passed to keep an eye on some enlisted members. The Israelis would lose their submarines in the first two to six hours of any conflict. It is possible that in that time they could sink or cripple some US ships and kill from several hundred to several thousand Americans. The next day there will be riots and pogroms in Brooklyn. Then we will have to decide what kind of country we live in.
History is not a collection of random events that get thrown through our window like a dead cat tossed by some insane deity. We get the world we create. The rules, possibilities and limitations were in place when we arrived with the capacity to comprehend them. We can only blame the results on ourselves.
To be blogged under the title “Judea Unus.”
Maybe the demands that Sec. Clinton presented Israel are designed to be impossible to meet, like Austria’s to Serbia.
LIB, “There is a time for everything under the sun… A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to tear down, and a time to build… A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.”-Ecclesiastes 3:1,3,8.
To all you who are talking about a military confrontation with Israel- are you out of your bloody mind?! Going to war with Israel is suicide! God defends Israel, and He brings ruin on the enemies of Israel.
LOTM, there are no good scenarios along those lines.
I would however point out, that the US has not faced a real high technology opponent since Vietnam if you call that even, and the whole tech world is very different today. What if the Israelis *could* do significant damage to the US fleet? Maybe they would hold back, in the hope of I don’t know what.
I suspect the Israeli’s best move, if attacked by the US, would be to go all in and fire all nukes in all directions on day one. Would they do it? And what then of Jews in the rest of the world? Of course it would become the holiest of days in dar al-Islam, whatever remained of it.
From the article in the [Glasgow, very left wing] Herald referred to by Eggplant@88:
“The British Ministry of Defence has said in the past that the US government would need permission to use Diego Garcia for offensive action [against Iran]. … About 50 British military staff are stationed on the island, with more than 3,200 US personnel.”
Sometimes you have to smile! 50 brave Brits defending Iran from thousands of the Great Satan’s evil forces.
Oh wait! Maybe the Brit commander has a strongly worded letter from the UN in his pocket — in French!