President Obama invokes religious duty in support of health care “reform”. The New York Times reports:
WASHINGTON — President Obama sought Wednesday to reframe the health care debate as “a core ethical and moral obligation,” imploring a coalition of religious leaders to help promote the plan to lower costs and expand insurance coverage for all Americans. “I know there’s been a lot of misinformation in this debate, and there are some folks out there who are frankly bearing false witness,” Mr. Obama told a multidenominational group of pastors, rabbis and other religious leaders who support his goal to remake the nation’s health care system.
I suppose that only God knows what politicians truly believe in their hearts, but it’s a safe bet that, whatever their theological inclinations, they believe in their own political ambitions. Jake Tapper at Politico notes that the Gospel is already being augmented.
Mr. Obama called on the religious leaders to help him share the good word about health care reform and set the record straight. “I need you to knock on doors, talk to your neighbors. I need you to spread the facts and speak the truth,” he said.
“What is truth?” Pontius Pilate asked. In politics, the truth is that most politicians want and like to keep power. Was that “false witness” or “false witless”?
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Truth is a fly rod, a Brittany Spaniel, cold clear water, with the smell of spring, and above the hills, the high blue windless skies of forever.
That’s what truth is.
Was that “false witness” or “false prophet”?
“We are God’s partners in matters of life and death,”
THAT is the single most important thing to come out of the Obama-and-the-Rabbis discussion. I know that blogger after blogger has engaged in tedious discourse about the neo-theological absurdities of the discussion, but the statement, “”We are God’s partners in matters of life and death,” is what stands out like a raw wound to most of us.
It is a blatant call for religious leaders to either stand aside or condone the government arrogating unto itself the power to decide who among the seriously-ill innocents get to die and which get to live.
and I suppose the IRS will only revoke the oppositions tax status…
Doesn’t POTUS bringing the topic of moral behaviour into the public square open the door for religious organizations to do the same?
I think that moral aruguments against Obama and his band of thieves are likely to do the most damage to him and bring him down. Sarah Palin hit a home run with her “Death Panels are immoral” posting on Facebook. We need more of that simple argumentation to blow holes in the confusing conglomeration of dehumanizing proposals that Obama and the MSM are throwing at us.
Three bleats to the Catholic Church for sitting quietly on the sidelines while Western culture ran headlong into the sewer. Benedict’s encyclical on Truth and Charity is something in the right direction but it’s way to scholarly to be useful. The big city Bishops should have picked up the ball and with a simple message made it clear that morality is an even greater obligation of government than it is of individuals.
Obama stepped on his patoot opening this door. I hope that there are enough Christian leaders out there with the energy and the integrity to make the most out of it.
God Lord. If this had come out of W’s mouth….
Now would be a good time for all religious organizations to talk about how their charity work, that once acted as the safety net for the poor, has been under attack by the secularists for the past 50 years or so. I think most people trust the church with taxpayer funded charity work than the Fed.
Where are we? Perhaps on the far side of destiny. It may be over or just beginning. You be the judge http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmZUnqjvEgI&feature=related
It is wise not to assume one knows God’s will. That goes triple for politicians.
Alienating the doctors, the inspectors general, the rich and the successful, a good portion of the congress, the police officers and protesting citizens was not quite good enough. Now he has insulted the shepherds, and through them, the sheep again. Darn! This guy is trying hard to beat Jimmy Carter at his own game. Nobel prize on the horizon…
The left has entree to the pulpit –has ever since the civil rights movement. The right, no such thing –just look at Falwell, Robertson, Peterson, et al, synonyms for “right wing nutjob”, while King, Abernathy, Berrigan, et al, synonyms for “hero”.
MSM + rope + lampost = real social justice.
“We are God’s partners in matters of life and death”
God’s partners or God’s equals? Or is it impolitic to ask?
1) Bob,
And York Peppermint Patties.
“I am my brother’s keeper, I am my sister’s keeper, and in the wealthiest nation on Earth right now, we are neglecting to live up to that call.” BHO
Rhetoric alone should be embarrassed by the brazen apostolic appeal to a citizen. Why would I want to join his crusade to make himself feel good when he sleeps at night. I already sleep fine. I work hard and I pay my taxes. I already take care of the poor. I already go to church.
I do not for one second think that he will make Medicare or medicaid solvent. I do not for one minute that there will no longer be the poor and the sick. I do not think for one hour that my taxes will stay the same. I don’t think that for one day his plan will increase the competitiveness of American business. I don’t believe in him because I know in my gut that he really doesn’t know what he is talking about. He want me to simply take a chance on his being right.
This whole thing about health care is to big too be done fast. It is too big to be done quick. It is too big to be done wrong. Its too important to be left to the politicians. He made fun of Joe-the-plumber(a yokel-snicker) for not seeing the big picture of the world. Well Barrack-the-bureaucrat hasn’t a clue about the pipes and toilets that the Leviathan called healthcare sits upon. And his appeal to the religious and better natures of the citizens is not Charmin moment.
Holy Hubris, Batman!!!
Pride comes before the fall. The toxic kind of pride, in this case. Obama is trying to salvage a steaming pile of you-know-what, which is his health care bill. However, his playbook is limited, and he will get in deeper and deeper.
It will be interesting to see how they square being God’s partners with abortion.
A trillion here ,a trillion there, and pretty soon it adds up to real
money.
.
So, will they remake movies like Golem? Do we get to drink cheap wine in smoky cafes? Will the supermarket take a wheelbarrow full of cash for a single frozen dinner?
wonder if Zimbabwe is taking old white fart refugees?
Lessee, the two trillion that just minutes ago got added to the deficit projection, plus the 14 trillion in evaporated household net worth since a year ago, plus the 30% crash in the Dollar in the same time frame, gee, you’d almost think we had elected a bunch of communists or something.
Hey Luddy, two or three square blocks of Harare may still be OK. See you at the bar at Meikles Hotel.
hey, sounds good, skook. hope Ingrid bergman is there. probably be sandra bernhard tho.
Partners.
There are different gradations of partners. Some are equal, which says something theological about how he views his relationship with the Diety; q.v. Homoousios.
Some are unequal; in which case there is the question of who is the senior partner, and who the junior? Can you conceive of someone with Buraq Hussein’s ego accepting a subordinate position? After all, he is superior to the nation, the Constitution, and certainly to any mere citizens. Must lead to some unique inter-office memos in the White House.
Then there is the concept of Primus inter Pares, the first amongst equals. Which implies at least 3. Aside from Buraq Himself; there is the conventional Judeo-Christian G-d. We cannot leave out Allah. And there are, of course, Marx, Engels, and Lenin. And perhaps a choice of names from the Leftist Litany of Saints who are allowed amongst the Elect: Sts. Felix D, Lavrenti B, and Nuon Chea [of Kampuchea].
[tongue only partly in cheek, as this may be closer to Buraq's subjective reality than we know.]
For some reason I sense a connection between Buraq Hussein and Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus and Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, both of which not so coincidentally were formally declared living gods by the Senate.
Kind of makes it obvious what the ontological status of us humble Patriots is, don’t you think?
Subotai Bahadur
bob (#1),
I truly love that definition! (And couldn’t agree more.)
Jamie Irons
“I am my brother’s keeper…”
Yet regarding his half-brother, it’s likely the prez would still rather keep things on the quiet.
http://www.theonion.com/content/news/obamas_hillbilly_half_brother
If he’s Caesar to our Gauls, have to say, Vercingetorix shoulda whipped him –it was a matter of timing. V gave C too much time to build those twin in & out facing entrenchments. he delayed too long before sending out the emergency signal to the reserves.
Funny thing.
When asked about abortion Obama said the morality of it was “above his pay grade.”
Now he has no trouble tying socialized medicine to God’s Will.
Has his pay gone up that much since he was elected?
I would just add that I prefer — a mere personal prejudice — that the fly rod be a Sage DS-2 Graphite (takes a 5 weight line)…
Jamie Irons
Lamiglas, Jamie. Of course I ruined my last one when I dropped it in the Umpqua River, walked back to the car and slammed the trunk lid on the thing…
I wonder which churches will enthusiastically endorse this new doctrinal view. Besides the Episcopalians of course.
We have heard complaints about the religious right for years, and few now remember the horrors the religious left unleashed on us.
“To some, the difference between the two presidents [Bush and Obama] goes beyond rhetoric. David Kuo, a former official in Bush’s faith-based office who later became disillusioned with the president he served, worries that both men have exploited religious phraseology for political gain. ‘From a spiritual perspective, that’s a great and grave danger,’ he said. ‘When God becomes identified with a political agenda, God gets screwed.’” (Politico, June 9 2009)
Our welfare and health care is not what Jesus wanted, Jesus wanted the “Body” the “congregation” to care for the widowed, orphaned and sick not the government! Jesus would never accept forcing people to support a government run agency which would obviously use it for what Jesus calls evil and Jesus preach it is better to pluck your eye out then to allow a part of you to do evil, supporting, giving money for the use Mr. 0bama wants is evil…. I am sure these “religious leaders” are the very same ones that allow practicing Homosexuals to be clergy and members of their congregations, Jesus reached out to the sinners but he did not make accept you until you repented, you were not forgiving unless you repented for the sin and confessed to sin no more, where a practicing Homosexual is repenting is not how God’s word describes repenting and sinning no more! No folks these “religious Leaders” are the very Demons Jesus and the prophets spoke of clothing them self’s in sheep skin and those that follow do not hear Gods word…
Mr. Obama called on the religious leaders to help him share the good word about health care reform and set the record straight. “I need you to knock on doors, talk to your neighbors. I need you to spread the facts and speak the truth,” he said.
A couple thoughts:
1. How is the action he is requesting of them, as stated above, particular to the role of religious leaders? Doesn’t the “job description” above sound, well, exactly like his self-aggrandized community organizer gig?
IOW it is interesting that community organizer mode appears to be his default response to every situation. Regardless of the audience or the “problem.” It’s “knock on doors” and “get in their faces.”
There is not one iota of a sense of a true spiritual (Christian or otherwise) dimension to the role of these religious leaders whom he is addressing.
Prayer? Prayer and fasting? Exhortation from the pulpit? Seeking guidance from Scripture?
This is not to say that, even for the best of causes (of which “health care reform” as presently misconfigured is of course the opposite), religious leaders should be holed up in their churches and synagogues while the storm rages outside.
But in the Christian teachings which he (*cough*) claims he believes (*cough* *gag*), excluding prayer, Scripture study, and the seeking of God’s will in any endeavor is an expression of the most grievous human arrogance. The idea that humans can do anything at all without God, apart from God is sinful and always leads to disaster.
2. In addition to the worldly methods he is asking these religious leaders to employ, he is asking them to advance a worldly goal — namely, his political agenda, for his political gain.
Oh, he *tries* to dress it up in the fig leaves of spiritual rhetoric. But this is probably one of the worst examples of rhetorical ham-handedness I’ve seen from him yet. He’s like Scarlett O’Hara trying to game Rhett Butler into believing that she hasn’t been drinking like a fish — i.e., incredibly lame acting, and not fooling anyone. TOTUS is the most secularized POTUS we have had in a generation or more. He really needs to stay away from the God references. They do not fit him any more than an orchid corsage fits a tattooed biker.
3. Wretchard’s title for this thread references the episode in the New Testament where somebody or other (it was always somebody or other) was trying to trip Jesus up by asking Him whether it was lawful to pay taxes to Caesar. Their reasoning being, if He said yes, He was a blasphemous Jew; if He said no, then he was a rebel to Roman rule; either position was enough to get him in serious trouble. He did not answer with a “yes” or “no,” but instead asked them whose image was on the coins they used. “Caesar’s,” their reply. He then told them to render unto Caesar what was Caesar’s, and render unto God what was God’s.
But like all of Jesus’ answers to these kinds of attempted entrapments, this one is not as simple as a “pay your taxes” reply. “What is God’s,” is no less than the earth and everything in it (Ps. 24:1). This includes all taxes, all wealth, all kingdoms and thrones and power of Caesars past, present, and future. To render unto God what is God’s is, therefore, to recognize that He, not Caesar, has the first, last, and ultimate claim upon our service, our devotion, “our” lives and “our” possessions.
Caesars who attempt to displace God from the throne and supplant His position in the hearts of citizens or subjects, are treading a very dangerous line. God has made and brought down Caesars throughout human history. When Nebuchadnezzar got too big for his britches, God gave him a season of insanity. A few years of living like an animal, naked and chewing grass, showed just who was sovereign over whom.
This is the great danger of viewing government activity as being “God’s partner” in God’s work. His kingdom is not of this world. And His ways are not our ways, nor are His thoughts our thoughts. It is difficult enough for individuals, even the holiest among us, to divine the will of God in so many situations. There are certain principles upon which we can operate for starters (God loves liberty, hates injustice, is the author of life and the sovereign of the time of life given to each individual) but trying to brand partciular policy decisions and, especially, behemoth-sized legislative excretions as gospel (aka the “good word”) that needs to be spread is … Wrong. Arrogant. Dangerous. Blind.
And probably a lot of other things. None of them good.
I guess he learned that at Trinity United Church of “God damn America.” The more I learn about black liberation theology the more I find it exalts man and debases God. Not surprising, I suppose. I recall Jeremiah Wright’s mentor James Cone, the theologian behind black liberation theology, saying if God isn’t racially-minded enough they’ll replace him with one who is. That’s not a partnership. Nor is what Mr. Obama is proposing.
One of the many strengths in Western Civilization is the separation between roles of the KIng or Basileus and that of the High Priest. At one time they were fused in the West as they historically were in the East. In the East a Despot or Khan was either God’s agent over all realms or was a god themselves. In Eastern Orthodox christianity the Emperor dominated the Patriarchy and exercised jurisdiction in both roles under what is called Caesaro-papism. Western Christianity over the long term benefited because it had to survive without the protection of the Imperium. At the same time the material weakness of the papacy allowed independent political communities to develop.
This division between the sacred and profane powers is unusual and created enough complexity and variety in structures that doctrines of tolerance, individuality and privacy were allowed to develop. A parallel set of circumstances created out of physical disaster and dispersion allowed congruent doctrines to develop among the jewish communities that no longer had a unified state with an anointed KIng and a temple bound priesthood to enforce discipline.
In America religious communities have always influenced political debate but other voices would always jealously guard against being subsumed in one voice. Certainly much of the abolitionist movement and later progressive spirit came from the tradition of militant Unitarianism from the 19th century. The alternating alliances and rivalries among the protestant communities and between them and catholic or jewish immigrants helped shape the Republic. Uncertainty about having a religious voice to close to the political voice was raised when John Kennedy became the first Catholic President. That helped define the role of clergy in being a moral voice but keeping them ostentatiously away from formal policy roles over the following decades. Even Billy Graham while seen as a prominent voice close to the White House was not allowed to exercise as open a role in advocating for specific policies as theologians of an earlier era did.
The one exception to this was in the black community. There ordained clergy would regularly engage in roles as both pastors, politicians and organizational leaders with real financial influence. This may in part have been due to the paucity of university trained leaders other then clergy as a result of prior discrimination. Partly it might have been accepted as an indication of patronizing by the larger society in dealing with the minority as if it was a foreign client. In some countries military officers are similarly found in positions of commercial and political leadership also because they are the only pool of skilled professionals available.
Obama by attempting to mobilize clergy for a political dispute is spreading the structure of the black community into the general society. He risks inflaming those who will see this as an Islamic fusion in his mind of the roles of sacred and profane leadership.
We have a thread on the Czars, then we have a thread on Caesar. Do I detect a pattern?
Which will come next Henry Kaiser or a thread on Egyptian Pharaonic monuments or Faro and gambling?
Place your bets.
LifeoftheMind, #36: Interesting when you got east of Byzantium, among the Nestorians for instance, there was much of the same independence as there was in the West. “The Lost History of Christianity” by Philip Jenkins is quite good on this. An immensely sad book. And I agree that what Obama is doing seems to be well outside recent American traditions concerning church and state.
Alexis: In fact it is impossible to know God’s will in any sense of totality. The best one can hope for is to learn some of what he intends for oneself.
This statement of Obama just leaves me livid–I can barely comment on it, but 3 related things stand out:
1) This man is at a level of narcissism that is pathological in the extreme and is indeed psychotic. He is quite out of his mind. His condition will get worse.
2) #1 makes this man exceedingly dangerous, and dangerous in any aspect, role or function of his job. He is capable of anything, and his actions and thoughts cannot be anticipated, predicted or even reasonably understood. He will act irrationally without real thought or understanding of consequences. The whole of the world to him has only the reality of stage sets and props. All are for his internal “psychodrama” (to use that unfortunate term) and nothing else.
3) An extremely troubling aspect of this remark is that it appears to be a completely unscripted, off-the-cuff turn of a phrase made just off the top of his head. Now, one can say that it is just a narcissism chaining together superficial bromides to sound mellifluous and profound, as they are wont to do, but the fact is that this sort of thinking must be floating around in his brain pan for it to surface so simply and smoothly into his prattle. Add to this the very notion that he feels that it is appropriate in such a gathering to engage in this sort of bizarre casting about for mock “profundities” in order to appear “eloquent” and to “sway” his religious audience. It truly shows what a childish man he is and betrays a profoundly shallow (and empty) notion of what religious faith is actually about. One gathers that he sees clergy as “community organizers” and little more.
I am sure that there are rabbis in that bunch that are decent religious men, in fact I actually know this to be true. They need to do some soul searching when the hear arrogant blasphemy such as this–and blasphemy is just what it is, have no doubt about it. They need to speak out about it if only for the sake opf their own souls.
The greatest flaw of the con man type of personality is their inability to understand that their victim’s capacity for stupidity is not infinite.
The second greatest flaw of the con man type of personality is their total inability to realize the type of vengeance their victims might want to inflict upon them once they have been exposed for what they are.
In these days and times I fear that most of our political class fits within the con man type of personality.
Skookumchuck,
Thank you. I learn something every day. Will look that up. There were many heterodox communities that were oppressed by Byzantium. They proved ripe grounds to advance the incoming tide of Islam.
Mongoose,
We have several physicians and even a couple of shrinks in the Club. Would like to hear their opinions on BHO’s marbles. Where are they? They are like cops and taxicabs, never around when you want them.
An extremely troubling aspect of this remark appears to be a completely unscripted, off-the-cuff turn of a phrase made just off the top of his head. Now, one can say that it is just a narcissism chaining together=
An extremely troubling aspect of this remark id that it appears to be a completely unscripted, off-the-cuff turn of a phrase made just off the top of his head. Now, one can say that it is just a narcissist chaining together
LOTM: Oh well it is obvious enough.
When asked about abortion Obama said the morality of it was “above his pay grade.”
Now he has no trouble tying socialized medicine to God’s Will.
Has his pay gone up that much since he was elected?
The old saying used to be that some incredibly rich guy “had more money than God.” I’m not sure Obama has more money than God, but looking at the Federal budget, he certainly spends more.
But isn’t this just typical of Obama, of all Leftists really. Everything, everything, is about whatever government program they’re trying to sell. Nothing on the face of God’s Green Earth, or Gaia’s Blue Marble, has an ounce of sunlight between it and their latest snake oil. Every good thing that means something to somebody has to be hitched to their rusted out wagon of failed ideas. Everything has to have a political dimension. Their politics grows like their spending, until it consumes all there is, and then keeps expanding to consume all there ever might be, and then goes even beyond that to consume more than ever could be.
Maybe that’s why Leftists worship politics. Like some demon from Cthulu, they see their politics as so monsterously large that it will grow to dwarf every other construct, of this world or the next, that their minds can conceive.
We have several physicians and even a couple of shrinks in the Club. Would like to hear their opinions on BHO’s marbles.
They may be updating a joke that got started in the 1930s about FDR. Here goes with ref to FDR Secundus:
A psychiatrist dies and goes to heaven (uh huh, some people will say that’s a good opening right there) and is met at the entrance by St. Peter, who has obviously been running to open the gates as fast as possible.
St. Peter remarks that he is delighted to see Dr. X, as his services are required immediately. The psychiatrist is puzzled and asks why anyone in Heaven would need a psychiatrist.
St. Peter tells him the patient is the ultimate VIP: “It’s God– He thinks he’s BHO.”
Across the Galilee they rowed
Arriving tired and sleepy
Above them teleprompters glowed
The stone stage dark and creepy
They stirred with fascination as
The waters rose around them
Celestial angels sang in jazz
As Acorn bands surround them
And then as trumpets fiercely blared
And lightning filled the sky
There came the One, the One who cared
Arriving on the sly
By walking on the watered stones
A grin from ear to ear
And from the crowd the roaring tones
Of vast celestial cheer
Then Obie raised his hand in peace
And said to quiet crowd
“My Father’s wonders never cease
He does what I’ve allowed”
RWE @ #28,
I liked that one.
Good point!
This has to be seen within the structure of the Democratic Party and what Joel Kotkin calls Gentry Liberalism. Gentry Liberals, of which Obama is the avatar and also God (yes Gentry liberals literally worship him and middle aged Gentry women write essays about how they dream of sex with Obama instead of their husbands!).
Central to Gentry Liberalism (of which again Obama is only the latest incarnation) is the idea that “Rightness” or Gaia or what have you has chosen THEM, the ELECT, to rule as God’s Shadow, or Divine Right of Kings, or what have you, with the understanding that God doesn’t exist but Gaia does. Post Christian Divine Right of Kings without that annoying … Christianity.
So of course Obama adopts this language. Because his Gentry Liberal audience demands it. What has changed is the go-go 1990′s-2006 created a LOT of massive wealth among Gentry Liberals. They are still about 20% of the population if that. BUT … their cultural and political influence is massive because they control about 98% of the wealth in this nation, directly or indirectly through sitting on Foundation boards, corporate boards, Wall Street, the Media, Entertainment, etc.
This is old, it is part of the divide between the “Anglo” part of American culture, inheriting the John Winthrop “City on the Hill” shining utopia, and Cotton Mather certainty of divine endorsement, and the “Celtic” part of populist clan-tribal independence and Western expansion. Washington-Adams vs. the Shays Rebellion. Bank of the United States vs. Andrew Jackson. Bill Maher vs. Sarah Palin even. Same basic struggle. Each side capable of nasty things. NOW with the great wealth, the “Anglo” side proposes to crush the Celtic side.
Bill Maher called Rove, Romney, and Sarah Palin three of the “sorriest White people” he’s ever seen. Note the racial epithet thinly wrapped around self-rightesousness. Gentry Liberals see themselves as “Anglo” i.e. Gaia’s divine elect “beyond” any identity save “coolness” and their opponents as “ignorant redneck hillbillies.” In a lot of ways this goes back to the Anglo-Celtic struggles of Britain and Roundheads vs. Cavaliers.
What is new here is a basic, “battle of annihilation” between the forces. Either the Anglo forces (Gentry Liberals) or Celtic forces (Palin-esque populists) will destroy the other. It’s a war picked btw by the Anglo-Maher-Obama forces. “Tired” of having to deal with the people. Like the “revolt of the elites” in the Netherlands, ticked off by popular support for Wilders and his party.
…and how stupid do they think we are?
“Am I my brother’s keeper?” Pols who cite this to further entrench themselves in our lives should be told the question is NOT “Is my Government my brother’s keeper”? Obviously the left answers yes and that is nothing more than outsourcing what should be a personal duty to those around us.
Hearing His O-ness talking about people “bearing false witness” is rich. This from the cat who sat under a demagogue’s hateful heresy for 20 years to get street cred in the hood is certainly a symptom of a sociopath as is noted above.
Obama’s rant about the State and God ushering in a brave new world is not far from Stalin and other Communist despots claiming to be God’s messenger in the earth.
In Rumania, a brave Christian pastor named Richard Wurmbrand was released from prison after years of persecution. He attended a conference of the state church where a compromised churchman called Stalin the “New Messiah”. Wurmbrand’s wife called him to “wipe the shame from the face of Christ’. He got up and rebuked the stooge and was immediately sent back to prison for 5 years.
That’s the cost of truth bearing in a world of lies. The Chi-town political pimp and his ilk are enemies of truth.
Walt ,that poem was exquisite.
Beware the pseudo-godly man who uses his phony piety to profit off the poor for his own agenda….especially if that man happens to control the purse strings! (ie., Stimulus package, Cap and trade, Government run healthcare, beef steak at $100 per lb. …etc). Yea, even those belonging to the inner circle of the divine can be wolves in sheep clothing!
Then Mary took about a pint of pure nard, an expensive perfume; she poured it on Jesus’ feet and wiped his feet with her hair. And the house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume. But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, “Why wasn’t this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year’s wages.” He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.
“Leave her alone,” Jesus replied. ” It was intended that she should save this perfume for the day of my burial. You will always have the poor among you, but you will not always have me.” John 12:1-8
.
Sorry to go off topic, but this administration is descending rapidly into parody.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/226/story/74102.html
There will be no toys in Sombertown. So says President Burger Meister – Meister Burger.
no kidding, walt –the imagery is superb!
Obama is selling two diametrically opposed messages; that ‘we are all in this together’ and that ‘we are all either exploited or exploiting, and owed or owing’. Well, which is it, i wonder. can’t be both.
#1 bob
I do so love your poetry.
Here’s to the fly rod – and the shotgun that goes with that spaniel!
#47 Whiskey
Post, my man. Post until your typing fingers bleed, and you can no longer stay awake.
Western civ needs you.
#38 Mongoose . . .
I just googled “Reform Jews Obama Health Care” to see what I could find about how the rabbis reacted to Obama’s words. I’m really fearful that Judaism in the U.S. is going down the tubes if the Reform movement becomes just a floppy branch of the Democratic party.
I hope many Jews in America realize that they should not be linking their religious feelings to the rise or fall of Obama and his policies. I write this because I have yet to see one Jewish person express the feeling that Obama is a threat to the United States as we know and love it.
White House Admits President Bi-Polar
When you look at Americans of Norwegian, Armenian, Jewish, or Italian descent, there is one thing they tend to have in common. There is an unfortunate tendency of many Americans to assume that American history started when their ancestors got off the boat. So, when it comes to worrying about Englishmen vs. Celts, Jacksonians vs. Whigs, or the opposing sides of Shay’s Rebellion, most descendants of post-bellum immigrants
JUST
DON’T
CARE.
There is a hidden cleavage in America and a glaring one; it is between those with family memories from America before 1860 and those who act as though nothing ever happened here before 1880. If you look at the demographics of America, there are some people from each side of the divide on the overt political divide we have now. However, broadly speaking, much of the support for Obama comes from descendants of postbellum immigrants who equate America with economic opportunity rather than descendants of antebellum immigrants whose ancestors came here for religious freedom or were sent here under a sentence of transportation (in lieu of death).
Those whose ancestors came to America before 1860 tend to identify themselves by state and often by county; license plates in many states show county or origin. “Ethnic” Americans refer to themselves as “Jew from New York”, “Italian from Chicago”, “Portuguese from Boston”, “Serb from Las Vegas”, or “Norwegian from Saint Paul”. Yet, it sounds nonsensical to talk of a Scots-Irish Presbyterian from Bowling Green when we are really talking about a Kentuckian from Warren County. It would sound just as nonsensical to talk of an English-American from North Platte when we are really talking about a Nebraskan from Lincoln County.
This is not a minor question in state politics because the question of city vs. state identification is a major cleavage in the politics of New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Wisconsin, Massachusetts, Missouri, and Nebraska.
The hidden cleavage is between those who regard America as independent of Europe and those who blithely assume that of course America is extension of Europe. It is between those who see America as a nation of Americans and those who see America as a “nation of immigrants”, which effectively means a “nation of foreigners”. Is the “Statue of Liberty” really supposed to stand for unlimited immigration for anyone who wants to come here? Must the highest status go to those who were “last off the boat”? Spanish colonies had tensions between the Creoles and the Peninsulares; “Peninsulare” Spaniards were supposed to have higher status because they were born elsewhere. A similar form of racism exists in North America where PBS systematically chooses British historians to interpret American history (as if no American could do it right) and where foreign ancestry or origin is magically regarded as a de facto title of nobility.
One thing Jacksonians and Whigs need to keep in mind is that there are those who would seek to erase America’s cultural heritage in the name of the “fundamental transformation of America”. If we truly have E Pluribus Unum, we won’t have any fundamental transformation of America; instead we would have a recognition that America’s heritage goes back a long ways and isn’t something to be treated with contempt.
Charity is a virtue. Theft is a sin.
The voluntary giving of one’s own wealth, effort, and time to the disadvantaged is generosity.
Using the power of government to force everyone to give to your prefered causes is sanctimonious robbery.
Beware those who proclaim loudly “I would gladly give a third of my income to help the disadvantaged!”.
What they really mean is “I would gladly use the power of government to force you and everyone else to support the causes I consider important!”.
Beware those who claim “Healthcare and education should be human rights!”
What they really mean is: “I have the right to force you and everyone else to pay for my medical needs and my education!”.
Bitter envy masquerading as generosity.
Leftism is the elevation of human envy to the status of a philosophy, if not a religion.
Promethea,
Reform Judaism has been a floppy branch of the Democratic party</i/ for 50 years
Besides Reform is really an expression of German Jewish culture. That worked out well. At least the Sulzbergers of the NYT left Temple Emanu-El and switched to Episcopalian.
Of more concern to me is the decline of what was the robust genuinely American theological movement of Conservative Judaism. This was in fact the bulk of American Judaism during the 20th century but it is under pressure, with some splitting off to become closer to Reform and new immigrants identifying with a reinvigorated Orthodox movement. They are not helped by a leadership that wants to change the relgion's name to something that sounds less "conservative."
Promethea,
Reform Judaism has been a floppy branch of the Democratic party for 70 years
Besides Reform is really an expression of German Jewish culture. That worked out well. At least the Sulzbergers of the NYT left Temple Emanu-El and switched to Episcopalian.
Of more concern to me is the decline of what was the robust genuinely American theological movement of Conservative Judaism. This was in fact the bulk of American Judaism during the 20th century but it is under pressure, with some splitting off to become closer to Reform and new immigrants identifying with a reinvigorated Orthodox movement. They are not helped by a leadership that wants to change the relgion’s name to something that sounds less “conservative.”
Promethia #55
I guess you don’t get out much. My family has served in the U.S. military since WWI (been in the U.S. since the 1880′s). I am an old Marine. I’m not an observant Jew but my brother is and belongs to a Reform Temple. I can assure you that we are in no way Obama supporters. My brother has called his Rabbi to task for imposing his political views onto his congregation.
Though it is true that a majority of Jews in the U.S. are or have been leftists it was mostly because of an accident of history. Yes Karl Marx was a Jew, so was Ayn Rand.
I have never completely excused David Horowitz for his leftist activism in the 60′s but he sure has done much to redeem himself with the Freedom Center and FrontPage Magazine. There are plenty of Jews on the right, the rest haven’t been mugged yet but I’m afraid it’s coming.
“However, broadly speaking, much of the support for Obama comes from descendants of postbellum immigrants who equate America with economic opportunity rather than descendants of antebellum immigrants whose ancestors came here for religious freedom or were sent here under a sentence of transportation (in lieu of death).”
Amen, Alexis. Bears repeating. After all, who threw the party that they all wanted to crash?
I see a philosophical split, though, that really cuts deeper: between those who came here for freedom and to remake themselves as citizens of the New World, and those who came here with a hit-the-lottery mentality, for the cash and prizes they imagined were here. Fortunately, we still attract the former type, but there are more and more of the latter these days.
Those who came here for freedom cherish our unique, constitutional republic. The latter all too easily become Looters.
I have to disagree, Alexis. I have always found your posts lucid and enlightening, but I don’t believe most Americans think American history started when their ancestors got off the boat, most Americans think American history started with their own glorious birth. Most Americans alive today do not know much of their own history, and as a consequence THEY DO NOT CARE. This has nothing to do with Whigs and Jacksonians, Norwegians or Celts. The Celts form the backbone of our armed forces because they are Celts, with centuries of constant war with the English along the Scottish border as part of their heritage. See David Hackett Fischer’s magiaterial Albion’s Seed for an account of the English settlement of America. My German DNA arrived before the Civil War and my Norwegian DNA arrived before WWI, and I don’t believe any of them considered themselves Norwegians from Philadelphia or Plattdeutsch from Bucks County Pennsylvania. They thought of themselves as Americans, and so do I.
Walt Erickson
Beverly #61
“Amen, Alexis. Bears repeating. After all, who threw the party that they all wanted to crash?”
Who indeed. Please Google “Haym Solomon”. You will see who helped pay for the “Party”.
My family came here in the 1880′s to escape the pogroms in the Ukraine. They were not economic refugees. They appreciated the safety that they found here. I was raised to be a contributing citizen. When I and the guys I grew up with in Brooklyn; Jewish, Irish and Italian enlisted and took the oath to “protect and defend” it was the same one that all those before us swore to. We took it just as seriously.
This is exactly the sort of thing I would’ve expected Obama to say and no doubt there are plenty of Christian religious leaders who’ll be happy to comply with his request to promote his healthcare plan, seeing as how their primary concern seems to be to spread, not the Good News, but the Social Gospel.
If I’m not mistaken, wasn’t it the Reformation that introduced the idea of the sovereignty of the different spheres of life? Government has its sphere as well as society’s other institutions, the church, the family, etc., and each had to know its’ proper place. This gets back to the question of jurisdiction that Wretchard brought up a few threads back. They will not stand for anything being beyond their jurisdiction.
Cellec @58: “The voluntary giving of one’s own wealth, effort, and time to the disadvantaged is generosity. Using the power of government to force everyone to give to your prefered causes is sanctimonious robbery.”
So true. But this truth is not something we can ever expect the Left to appreciate. The beneficiary of someone’s generosity is likely to feel gratitude and the Left will have none of that. The grasping demanding entitlement attitude is what they want to see. For forty plus years they have cultivated the demoralization of the American character. It’s all so ugly.
Fox had a discussion about the appropriateness of government co-opting religion to push Health care change. The pastor spent little time addressing the morality/constitionality and all his time spouting the sdministration’s talking points.
He sounded just like ell the other shills.
Those whose ancestors came to America before 1860 tend to identify themselves by state and often by county; license plates in many states show county or origin. “Ethnic” Americans refer to themselves as “Jew from New York”, “Italian from Chicago”, “Portuguese from Boston”, “Serb from Las Vegas”, or “Norwegian from Saint Paul”. Yet, it sounds nonsensical to talk of a Scots-Irish Presbyterian from Bowling Green when we are really talking about a Kentuckian from Warren County.
This is not a minor question in state politics because the question of city vs. state identification is a major cleavage in the politics of New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Wisconsin, Massachusetts, Missouri, and Nebraska.
I can’t say as I really am seeing evidence of this as you describe it, at least with respect to where I live (Pittsburgh and surrounding counties).
The demographics here that result in political divides are:
1. Union legacy (5 to 1 Dem to Republican voter registration in Allegheny County)
2. Allegheny County vs. surrounding suburban & rural counties (this is the county-by-county Red-Blue Urban vs. Suburban/Rural phenomenon that BCers have described in other threads)
3. Race
The divide of ante/postbellum ethnics and city/county mentality that you describe does not occur on the level of state politics. With the exception of demographic #3, there is a remarkable cohesiveness of identity as “Pittsburghers” when it comes to state anything. This is because there’s a very real Pittsburgh-Philly rivalry (at least from our POV) in which Pittsburghers feel (1) constantly outnumbered (which we are) and (2) ignored and/or exploited in order to serve Philly’s interests. To use a phrase I’ve heard locally, “In politics, Pennsylvania ALWAYS tilts east” … tax dollars, political power, etc. etc. flow to Philly.
(N.B. As a conservative, it’s funny to hear Dem machine politicians in Pittsburgh complain about tax dollars flowing to Philly when Allegheny County is one giant tax-sucking vortex, hence the population flight to outlying counties)
At any rate, the ethnicity and date of family’s arrival of, say, an antebellum Irish ancestry Pittsburgher and a postbellum Italian or Polish ancestry Pittsburgher are essentially non-factors in determining the present-day political allegiances. All three sent (and send) their sons off to war -OR- had their sons manning the steel mills while the cousins were off at war. All three are Catholic (Pgh is *extremely* Catholic – lots of local resturaunts and cafeterias still have Fish Fridays, and not just during Lent but year round!) or lapsed Catholic.
But when you get to the level of individuals and how they vote, here’s how complicated and unpredictable things get:
1. My professor at Duquesne U (Catholic uni) – Italian ancestry, third-gen Pittsburgher, Vietnam vet, devout Catholic, lifelong academic, long time Republican (pro-life and national defense), voted McCain
2. Best friend’s father, born in Puerto Rico, grew up in New York, moved to Pgh in his 20s, senior citizen, ex-Catholic now agnostic, wealthy entrepreneur, used to be liberal, now staunch conservative, voted McCain
3. Best friend’s mother, Polish ancestry, born in Pgh, devout Catholic, senior citizen, pro-life, voted Hillary then Obama
4. Best friend, strong on national defense and traditional cultural values, raised Catholic, now non-denom Christian, lifelong college teacher, voted Bush in 2004, then Obama-Obama in 2008
5. Best friend’s friend, housewife-P/T waitress, married w/4 kids, Irish-Polish ancestry, hubby an HVAC tech, devout Catholic, voted Bush in 2004, voted Obama in 2008 because her son joined the military in 2006 and she thought her son would be more safe with Obama promising to get us out of Iraq
(No word of how the son in the military voted ….)
Please note that ethnicity was pretty much irrelevant in all of the above re: their votes esp. in 2008.
Where you think ethnicity would have mattered most (native Puerto Rican), it actually ended up cutting the other way. The usual Dem-Hispanic allegiance was broken in this case by an individual success story. As an immigrant who found great prosperity here in America, he knows firsthand it is the land of opportunity and has no patience for whiners and welfare collectors; plus, he doesn’t like his earnings, for which he worked like a dog, to get eaten up in taxes.
Also note the devout Catholics who voted for radical pro-abortion Obama in 2008. One because she fell for DNC propaganda painting McCain as a warmonger and was scared for her son in the military, the other because she (1) didn’t know about Obama’s pro-abortion record incl. the Born Alive Infant Protection Act, 2) fell for his “nice, calm, reasonable” guy routine and (3) sentimentally, thought it would be nice to have a black president.
Fear, gullibility, ignorance, and good will: The four primary factors driving the one-time GOP voters above into the arms of Obama in 2008. Please note that all three of them are women. But before whiskey or anyone else gets to gloating on this statistic … two of them are married women old enough to have grown children.
The critical questions are, can these ladies be fooled twice? And will it matter by then (ie if and when they wake up)?
Are the clergy to read the proposed legislation so that they may get out and spread the facts? What facts has the partner in life and death been spreading?
Bob and others amen on the fly rod and little pointer…I learned with a fiberglass rod (true-temper) so graphite feels a bit fast for me. Guess I should try a cane rod someday.
“In Eastern Orthodox christianity the Emperor dominated the Patriarchy and exercised jurisdiction in both roles under what is called Caesaro-papism.”
More true of the earlier periods. During the Iconoclast controversy the church actually put up a heck of a fight against the Emperor(s), and while the controversy was actually settled when the Emperess Irene switched the Imperial position, the Orthodox church actually gained a great deal of independence. After that point you do have instances of the Patriarchy standing up to the Emperor (Nicophorus the something was excommunicated for marrying a fourth time, IIRC).
Funny, I never thought we would have a President that makes Jimmy Carter look good in comparison.
Apparently the Democrat plan is to get a national general health care “agency” of any type, established that could be expanded in power later. They were even bragging that they’d sacrifice House blue dogs (with promises to take care of them later) and and another presidential term to get it. However, more and more it looks they may loose more than just some blue dogs in the House. Watch for some Democrat senators to start moving away from all of the grandiose plans for the government to take over everything.
We may be looking at a catastrophic failure of this administration following some incident. The ship may sink so fast the rats won’t have time to bail.
A physician told me about a visit he made to England several years ago. It was a horticultural society international meeting at St. Albans. A vicar, canon or whatnot was active in the society and served as a guide to the American delegation over a period of a few days. He and Dr., in the process, came to know one another. The clergyman told the doctor that he had glaucoma and was on the waiting list for treatment. The time of wait was two years. The doctor looked at him, asked questions, and told him that he needed immediate attention and to go private or he would lose his sight. The man refused. His excuse was that he felt he had to “set an example” to his congregation by joining the queue. The physician learned that he went blind before his name came up on the list.
A few random thoughts:
What kind of example?
It occurs to me that to give the State total control over one’s sight is idolatry. To give the State control over one’s body to the extent that one suffers pain , blindness or even death seems to me to be offering sacrifices to an idol, the State. We are forbidden to worship or give offerings to idols.
This man sacrificed his sight to the State and by doing so, set a ( put your own adjective here) example to his congregation. The example he might have set is to have gone private, announced it to his congregation and urged them to go and do likewise. He might also have started , using his own experience , to help them to see the evil in giving (and it is given, since they could rebel) this kind of power to the State. Jesus told us to” render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s”, but our bodies are not Caesar’s. They are God given.
It appears to me that If we are complicit in giving this kind of power to the State, we are equally complicit, and responsible for, the consequences. I don’t want that kind of power and I greatly fear those who do.
This has been much on my mind . Do you think the Church should take a larger role in helping their members to give this more thought?
Walt:
You have a point. I would argue that there wouldn’t be so many Americans ignorant of history were it not for ideological forces that would equate Americanism with historical amnesia. Not caring about history should be seen as an inherently ideological phenomenon that is a direct result of how history gets taught in American schools.
This lack of historical memory is dangerous, for people are more likely to believe the rhetoric of false messiahs if they have nothing to measure their words against.
bogie wheel:
Voting patterns of Pittsburgh and its environs remind me of voting patterns from Minnesota’s Iron Range.
There is a propensity in rural Minnesota and the Dakotas for people of Norwegian and German heritage to identify by city or small town as well as by their ethnicity (as opposed to identifying by county and state). These regions tend to be Republican strongholds that vote for McCain.
The strongest difference between antebellum and postbellum settlement is the question of whether one regards the Civil War as an important part of history. This difference affects historical memory, but it does not dictate partisan loyalty.
There may be factors from the middle of the nineteenth century more important than the Civil War that led people to identify themselves by city and ethnicity rather than by county and state. That can be seen even in the militia raised for the Union war effort during the Civil War. (Some militia were predominantly Irish or Scandanavian or Negro.) If the general trend in America is toward identifying by county and state rather than by city and ethnicity, perhaps Barack Obama’s Chicago style politics should be seen as abnormally retrograde rather than anything purporting to be “progress”.
Didn’t Sarah Palin get roasted in the MSM for praying that we try and understand God’s will? She didn’t claim that she was the holder and agent of that will, but like Lincoln only a seeker of what God wanted from us?
That is a much more humble position that what Obama is proclaiming.
As to Alexis’ hypothesis, probably not definitive but it is thought-provoking. In support I would add a tidbit – what happened to the Daughters of the American Revolution? As an organization they used to have confidence and clout; now, nothing but the object of ridicule.
I would add that I recently discovered through the genealogical research of my daughter-in-law, that my direct ancestor served as a soldier in the Revolutionary War in the Pennsylvania Militia – a second generation German-American. Nothing glorious of course (listed as infantry transport equipment specialist – aka bootmaker.)
Just about everyone I mention this to here in San Francisco Bay Area just snorts – it is a demerit, not a social asset. The only ones who acknowledge it positively are the Chinese.
Personally, I only offer myself as a physical and intellectual link with the original purposes of our founding. Maybe it is a bit self-involved, but hey! I’m a citizen from the longest possible line of citizens, for better or for worst.
I have already commented under Newsom
#73 Whitehall
As one of those Chinese who understands, I congratulate you on finding that connection. As a fellow American who is enduring the current storm, I note that under the new dispensation; to your San Francisco neighbors you have probably identified yourself as one of the ‘hereditary class enemies’ who will have to be liquidated in the near future. There is only a small amount of sarcasm in that last sentence. I would not depend on the fabled “tolerance” of San Franciscans when it comes to being to the Right of Trotsky. You are someone it is acceptable to discriminate against and attack; and as time goes by will become more so.
Subotai Bahadur
Subotai,
Guess I’ll just have to follow Churchhill’s direction – “take one with you.”
Alexis:
The whole point of the public education system is to erase the institutional memory of the American people so that the exceptional nature of the American experiment is forgotten. If we cannot discuss the Adams’, Jefferson, Lincoln, Washington, Tom Sawyer, Huck Finn, and the rest of the canonical historical and literary tradition in context with our children, how can they understand WWI, WWII, Korea, VietNam, and the rest of the sacrifices that lead to them here?
71 Newsom: That is very crisp theological thinking. I’ll be at the Vigil Mass this evening with your thoughts on idolatry on my mind. Thank you.
Subotai and Whitehall; the “San Francisco Democrats” drove Jeanne Kirkpatrick out of the Democratic party; in the same way the Obamacrats are driving the swing voters into buyers remorse. Remember that those San Franciscans are defenseless, having giving Mayor Newsom (gotta be a different guy!) their guns! Easy pickings.
Was it not Neitzche who wrote of the path we are currently headed, of which Obama is only the most current prominently observable manifistation–the creation of the neo-Gnostic being who experiences the rise and fall and rise again all within his own here-on-earth psyche? No, the question is NOT: “Are we not men?” Rather it is: “Are we not self-contained Gods within our own souls?” Is that not the ultimate logic of the “progressive” Gnostic tradition from the attempted conceptual immanentization of the Eschaton? The Gnostic experiences expanding the soul to the point where “God is brought into the experience of man.” (Eric Voegelin) Seen in this light the Gnostics and their grasp of “the word” or “truth” in effect stage a Dominionist coup against God, by attempting to build God’s Kingdom here on earth themselves–betraying a narcissistic lack of faith in God to fulfill his own will (other than “with a little help from my friends.”) In this line of thinking the secular “Dominionists” express the will of God here on Earth–THEY, not GOD, “make the Kingdom come, and the kingdom comes through purely secular institutions and political machinations.” Early sociopolitical utopians of the Enlightenment like Condorcet codified as revolutionary doctrine this eschatological vision of Gnostic immenantization where infinite progress would bring about a “natural salvation of plenty and immortality,” i.e., self-salvation as leveraged thru the activities of the state–the remaking of the world into a utopian progressive Nirvana–all happening within the ontological confines of this world.
The foundation for Obama’s world-view–a mix of the Protestant’Gnostic tradition and the re-resculpting of Jesus via scientific-materialism of Marx, Engels, Hegel back through Sir Francis Bacon and before him St-Simon, who developed in his psychological interpretation of governance the precursor to Marx’s “scientific-materialism/socialism.” And Saint-Simion’s work itself serving as the prescription for Sir Francis Bacon’s prophetic vision of a technocratic society where scientists and technicians act as the sole decision-making body–an inherently anti-democratic concept which helped lay the foundation for modern socialist totalitarian government by circumventing conflicting political interests by an “apolitical” bureaucracy comprised of scientists and technicians. And with the help of people like Bill Ayers following on from Alduous Huxley in shaping education so that the nation will grow to love it’s servitude to this new scientifically-based (think Obama’s science advisors, the end-of-life advisory panels in the Health plan) “religion.” That is to say, a fervently worshiped-upon ideologically -tinged religion–one with all the sociological trappings of a secular movement. Seen in this light, Jesus’ Kingdom is a secular government established and maintained thru secular institutions. Obama’s Christ thus seen as a secular messiah with a political mission, not a spiritual one. “What we got here” (h/t Strother Martin) is vintage anthropocentricism, where “Man is the Measure of all things.” The corrupted creation–our present physical world–MUST be reformed. “We must save our selves!” Or, as Obama puts it: “We are the ones we have been waiting for!”
Seen in the above light, Obama’s latest proclamationas about Man and God make perfect sense…
# 78 weSwinger
No, not that guy ! I am an octogenarian great grandmother. I think this is the most dangerous time for our country that I have lived in in my 80+ years, other than WW2.I fear for my numerous greats and grands.
This coming from a guy who made a promise to help his grandmother’s village and has never done so. Of course only the British media has reported on this.