The Political Ticker describes one Blue Dog Democrat admitting to an angry crowd that the President’s health care proposal may have been a mistake; that it might be better to start over; that perhaps a kind of incremental approach fixing what was broken instead of trying to redo the whole system was a wiser way to go. “Never have I had this attendance … “ And faced with that hostility, the administration is maneuvering across a broad front after unexpectedly stiff opposition at Town Hall meetings. Polls confirmed that the health care proposals were going over like a lead balloon. The confidence was certainly ebbing. An administration which once promised to punch back twice as hard at opponents it called “Astroturf” was shutting down the tip line designed to identify those who dared oppose it.
Following a furor over how the data would be used, the White House has shut down an electronic tip box — flag@whitehouse.gov — that was set up to receive information on “fishy” claims about President Barack Obama’s health plan. E-mails to that address now bounce back with the message: “The e-mail address you just sent a message to is no longer in service. We are now accepting your feedback about health insurance reform via http://www.whitehouse.gov/realitycheck.”
The New York Times reported that the President, for the first time in a while, avoided speaking on the subject of his health care proposals. David Axelrod denied the President had lost heart, using a curious double negative to express his confidence.
For the first time in several days, Mr. Obama did not directly address health care on Monday as he appeared at the Veterans of Foreign Wars convention in Phoenix. And Mr. Obama is not scheduled to devote much time to promoting that agenda this week, aides said, as he tries to cool an August fury that has emerged around the issue. … David Axelrod, a senior adviser to Mr. Obama, said the president had “absolutely not” concluded that it would be impossible for a bill including a public plan to pass Congress. With lawmakers in recess and the president preparing for his own vacation at the end of the month, Mr. Axelrod said he expected discussions to resume in September.
But there is a distinct atmosphere of playing things down. The frontal assault to take over the health care industry may be over for now. But it’s probably only a matter of time before the flank attack begins. Within the Democratic Party there is a strong belief that health care “reform” is impossible without some sort of ‘public option’. Howard Dean expressed those sentiments when he said that you couldn’t do anything meaningful without it. If the administration’s health care proposals comes back in any guise at all, the hook of a public option will be buried within the bait, and buried deep. The Left wing of the Democratic Party will see to that.
“It will be an ugly process,” said Dean, speaking to 2,000 people attending the 2009 Netroots Conference. He urged them to fight, saying the Democrats had the numbers.
“The only piece of reform left (in the bill) worth doing is the public option,” Dean said. “We have already compromised.”
That compromise, he said, was leaving single-payer health care off the table from the beginning. Despite any disagreements within the Democratic Party, Dean said he believes a bill with the public option will survive and every Democrat will have to vote for it. …
Asked about the contentious town halls that have been held around the country, where lawmakers have been shouted down and, in some cases, faced threats, Dean said “the debate is over.”
“The town halls are not about health care,” he said. “They’re about being angry.”
It’s also about generational change, he said, indicating the majority of the protesters at the town halls were older people, and their group was getting smaller and smaller.
“They don’t look anything like the generation that voted for Obama,” Dean said. “These people feel threatened.”
Howard Dean may be right about the anger, but for the wrong reasons. Maybe the public unease has nothing to do with a reluctance to discuss health insurance, or even an aversion to going in the door of the public option if they were sure they could come out of it again. Perhaps it is nothing but an instinctive drawing back from the settledness of the discourse; from the strange assumption the debate is over. There is something disquietingly spooky about Howard Dean’s sense of destiny; his dead certainty over the direction “generational change” must take, the overeager willingness to consign an earlier dream of America to the boneyard. It is that which may give people pause. That doubt Dean senses in the public is ironically the flipside of his own assured righteousness. They feel his fire and are afraid. But no matter. Andrea Mitchell raised the possibility that Americans may not know what’s good for them. If so, they must be saved from their own antiquated dreams. It would be a duty to perform the office of freeing them from their illusions. And perform it they will. For the true believers know that the public — and politicians for a fact — are weak and no match for their will. It’s well to recall that the British Medical establishment once opposed the establishment of the National Health Service, until they were persuaded with lucre.
Bevan had to get them onside, as, without doctors, there would be no health service. Being a shrewd political operator, Bevan managed to push through the radical health care reform measure by dividing and cajoling the opposition, as well as by offering lucrative payment structures for consultants. On this subject he stated, “I stuffed their mouths with gold”. On July 5, 1948, at the Park Hospital (now known as Trafford General Hospital) in Manchester, Bevan unveiled the National Health Service and stated, “We now have the moral leadership of the world”.
The “moral leadership of the world”. But is it real? Or the cynical kind of morality that is merely a commitment to the memory of all they once believed? A toast to the men they used to be? The dead hand of an old generation may be the Left’s resting on America’s shoulder. How many ideals do Rahm Emmanuel, David Axelrod and Barack Obama have between them? Well maybe a lot, in a crazy kind of way. Dreams are along time dying, even when they become at the last, only dreams about dreams.
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The democrats were intent on passing a massive and even by their own admission imperfect healthcare bill before the August recess. Before it could recieve scrutiny from the public or even from the members of congress that would vote on it. How could anyone show any less respect for the people and government of this country? If healthcare reform is needed why not appoint a serious non partisan study group to come up with suggested improvements? Why not first fix what we know is wrong with Medicare & Medicaid? Why not tackle reform incrementally where we might be able to limit the unintended consequences of a massive overhaul? Because this is not about healthcare. This is a Trojan Horse to breach the walls of our Republic.
Jay Cost at Real Clear Politics thinks that Obama is fecklessly over-reading his mandate. Cost argues that BHO’s support is nowhere near as great as some media outlets would have us believe.
What really worries me is that the liberals know exactly how narrow their actual mandate is but are prepared to proceed anyway. I think it’s doubtful that BHO is completely unaware of the margins by which predecessors were elected and it is precisely the precariousness of his position which makes the imperative to “reform” so much more urgent.
I have yet to understand why the stateist believe their accension is inevitable. They do not seem to register that everywhere socialized anything has been tried it has failed. They all seem to be off in some dream land and collectively believe in the tooth fairy.
Practically you can buy off about anyone but the result will fail at delivering the product. And if it is power they want then they can get it but at some point the wheel will turn.
Off my back, out of my pocket, no more socialism!
Now is the time, while they are back on their heels or getting ready to sneak in the back door to get inside their OODA loop by attacking the political proponents of this leftist nonsense and doing so unremittingly and without mercy.
Whiskey outlines, in the prior thread, what is probably at the bottom of this. The post-racial candidate has turned out to be (what a surprise!) a racist of the first order. He’s trying to reconcile with his long-lost black father and to kill his already dead and buried white mother and grandmother. And he has 1/5th of the American population that is self-loathing enough to try to help him do it.
I suggest a viral campaign, in addition to the one outlined by Whiskey. If someone can link to the Morris article that, as I understand it, outlines the thesis that the mostly white, elderly, largely conservative portion of the population is about to be classified as expendable (just like the unborn), then we can embed it in an email with the following subject title:
OBAMA LIES, GRANNY DIES
#4 maineman,
“. . . elderly, largely conservative portion of the population is about to be classified as expendable . . .”
Yes, and then after the Left has killed them these vampires will proceed to steal every piece of property and every dollar the elder have amassed over decades of hard work and then distribute the plunder amongst themselves and their collaborators.
Forget not two things:
1. The federal government has the (legal) right to use guns to enforce its will. It has the infrastructure and the means to do so. I think this regime has the will.
2. Less than 20% of the people supported the American Revolution. The rest ranged from opposition to passivity. I dont think much has changed.
America is a social contract. Its violation may be nearer than we think.
Thats why “Howard Dean’s sense of destiny” is spooky.
This is NOT about health or healthcare or health insurance. Its about power and control.. The have a lot and want more and will not quietly give up what they have. Its in the nature of fascists to crush opposition.
The best friends that The Republic have are the friends of Barack Obama and time. The face of the nomenklatura is now Howard Dean. This is good. The MSM got this crowd into power by keeping everyone focused on the smiling face of BHO and his post card children. It was like a hypnotism trick or a magician’s sleight of hand. Michelle vanished for the election. Some very brave soul must have the job of being her keeper.
The more they try to do the more the public will get to see the mob, Dean, Emmanuel and a score of other hateful thugs slavering at the bit like wolves, and always hovering behind the curtain, Soros. Think about it, Howard Dean, the crazy Doctor, the failed candidate, the man who left his church because they would not give up land for a pet cause. We want the public to see more of him and remember why he was a loser.
They know that time is their enemy. That is why they desperately used lies and panic to ram through the Stimulus and seized the auto industry. They knew that if they didn’t get someone as unqualified as Satomayor onto the SCOTUS fast they never would. They have to push the seizure of health care through before the second slump hits.
It is possible that the off year elections in ten weeks will show that the tide is running out for them. I am glad that screaming Howard Dean is the face of Obamacare. Time is against them.
I think one of the most absurd aspects of the new national health care plan is the labeling of it as “reform” of the current system.
The only part of the current system that is well and truly broken is the part that represents the essence of the “reform” plan.
Following this same definition of reform, if this were the financial industry they would “reform” it by giving institutions who had been found to be poorly run more money to cover their mistakes.
If this were the construction industry they would “reform” it by giving taxpayer money to firms who were foolish enough to build too many houses by inventing useless things to build.
If this was the real estate industry they would “reform” it by giving even lower interest loans to people who had proven they could not pay.
If this was education they would “reform” it by giving more and more money to the schools to produce students that were less well educated.
If this were the automobile industry they would “reform” it by bailing out failing companies and paying people to buy their cars.
Oh, wait a minute….
Never mind.
A health care proposal that was driven by true desire for reform would have statistical analysis and evaluation of other plans as part of the underlying presentation and defense. The health care proposal was a stealth effort based on a few careless statistics about the number of people without care in the US. It was to be passed before the August recess without any true discussion of cost, need, benefits, or expected outcome.
Therefore, it cannot be considered a matter of health care, but a matter of government intervention without serious thought.
Where are the statistics that this plan was based on? Where is the analysis of the plans that Massachussets and Hawaii implemented? Why did Obama feel the need to talk to the Congressional Budget Office to tone down its assessment of the cost? How would this plan differ from the plan in Canada or England?
Reasonable people have a lot of questions that the government’s response seems to be “Trust Us” and if one doesn’t, then Harry Reid has the audacity to call them “evil mongers” .
I get a sense that we are somewhere within a great transition, something of the magnitude of Midieval–> Modern –>Post Modern –> ?
Ironically, the two great cultures that lead the world into modernity, Great Britian and the United States, are the worst holders-on to the what “could have been.” England seems to be on a path of cultural self annihilation led with song and pomp by the Government and the gentry. The United States less so but only because the hoi polloi are less willing to go along with the lunacy of hopeychange.
I don’t know whether it’s a loss of confidence in political and social institutions in general or if it’s because the people who never even heard of Derrida and Focault just know that anybody who has should be institutionalized or at the very least not allowed anywhere near a legislature.
We have to go back 2,500 years and put all the pieces together again in a few different ways to decide where we want to go from here. The Greeks didn’t have all the anwsers but they knew all the right questions.
It’s probably not insignificant that the Chinese Cultural Centers springing up in Africa and South America explain Chinese culture in terms of Confucianism and not Marxism or Maoism. What’s Islamism if not a rejection of modernity?
I think the battleground is nothing less than what it means to be human being in the 21st Century and beyond. With the stakes that high I don’t suppose the give and take will be either pretty or civil.
With the stakes that high I don’t suppose the give and take will be either pretty or civil.
Who can say? The problem with predicting the future has always been the fact that it is truly new. There’s something in it that is not contained in the present; and in a complex system that new thing can make all the difference.
The best thing about the current crisis is that it reminds us that we are not at the End of History. Come to think of it, that would have been a terrible place to go. The Left for some strange reason yearns for a final disposition. There has to be an end to leftist history for that kind of history to exist. It’s a story with a hard requirement for a last act. A human drama with no end would be one in which the Party would be a passing thing; and not the author of the play itself.
The price of living on earth is the need to wait around and see what happens next. Given that we have no choice, then perhaps the best thing is to dive in. To do our best; to make mistakes. To use our freedom knowing that freedom doesn’t guarantee happy endings. It only guarantees that we live as men.
That’s a pretty long winded way of arguing that the City on a Hill occasionally redevelops itself, with all the inconveniences it entails. But in the end it’s best to be living in that City — where the lamps and fires are lit against the night.
Folks, this isn’t string theory or any higher mathematics; it’s head counting in Congress. They have the numbers. Fortunately, as they have in the past, they have been resisted by a country that is by the latest polling conservative IN EVERY STATE, including Hawaii, Mass., and Vermont.
So we stopped them once but W is correct in saying that the flanking movements are already in the works. Hopefully the mid term elections will slow the efforts of obama and his apparatchiki to socialize the US, but don’t bet on it.
So far in his administration he hasn’t even been able to stop smoking, much less keep his vow to not hire former lobbyists or have the most transparent administration in history. These and a dozen other hollow mouthings are becoming his legacy. He can’t because what he is attempting goes way beyond the bounds of what his teleprompter told him to say during the election. By the end of his first term we will have grown very tired of this modern day Step-n-Fetchit, dancing to the tune of the Internationale and apologizing for the very existence of this most great nation.
It is becoming well known but is still crucial that the word be spread that we are in a social revolution in this country, aided by the Communists and Socialists via the Democratic Party.
The good new is obama is doing a good job of making that apparent. He is a polemicists, not a statesman and it shows his true philosophical nature when he continues to sneak around meeting with Rev Wright and others who hate this nation. This man has earned our mistrust, in spades.
So send him a message next year that he is one and done..
To use our freedom…
Islam says that human beings have no freedom, only obedience to Allah. The Left says that freedom is relative and at best secondary to your primary obligation to society.
The number of bodies piled up by just Islam and Communism over the last few generations don’t give me a lot of confidence that the future will be decided on a casual stroll to Piraeus.
the strange assumption the debate is over.
It’s not strange at all. Sociologist Joseph R. Gusfield lists it in one of the steps in seizing political power, in Contested Meanings.
First, define a “public problem.”
Second, take ownership of it.
Defining disagreement as outside the norm is accomplished by claiming the debate is already over.
Bill Whittle’s brilliant discourse on imagery, branding and Obama’s cult of personality really raises the question: what is the life cycle of this product? Who goes there?
Bill thinks that Obama’s iconography might jump the shark. But for his legions of true believers, that moment is not yet.
What really worries me is that the liberals know exactly how narrow their actual mandate is but are prepared to proceed anyway
Wretchard,
If the liberals proceed anyway, it will be a disaster for them. You can’t run a government, at least in America, by going against the will of the people.
From a cynical point of view, I actually wish the liberals did that, since it will lead to their repudiation; from a humane point of view, I hope they don’t — it will cause a lot of pain in the short run until it is reversed.
Regarding reversing a bad health care decision, see my previous comment on the Medicare catastrophic act of 1988: http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/08/03/the-murky-future-of-healthcare/#comment-49
I very clearly remember the “mobs” of elderly people chasing down Dan Rostenkowski over the Medicare Catastrophic Act of 1988, see: http://pajamasmedia.com/instapundit/83257/
The previous link from instapundit, leads to this very good article titled “Town Hells”: http://american.com/archive/2009/august/town-hells
Everyone has to be very careful with this health care debate, the eldery are truely scared; and we all need to slow down & be much more careful.
The elderly also have enough political power to reverse anything the liberals push through, should they choose to be so unwise; just as they did to the Medicare catastrophic act of 1988.
I guess it comes down to what you mean by “worries you”. I’m not worried for the long term for America, if the Liberals push through the health care bill they are currently thinking of pushing through, it will get reversed, and reasonably quickly too.
To some extent I do worry & am concerned about the anguish it is causing the elderly in this country; who are starting to fear that their golden years will be without hip replacements [that is what is most mentioned to me by the elederly when they talk about their health care in the future], or other necessary medical care they need for good quality of life.
habu, you read as if they big sky rest served you well. The open carry / “armed protest” in Az yesterday makes for interesting pondering. Locals discuss it here …scroll down for the pics.
Who can say? The problem with predicting the future has always been the fact that it is truly new. There’s something in it that is not contained in the present; and in a complex system that new thing can make all the difference.
Ichak Adizes addresses this exact point in his article on What caused the credit crisis, and what is the solution? See: http://www.adizes.com/blog/?p=66
Key point “Communism negated the role of capital in creating value and gave no representation to capital in company governance. Capitalism, by and large, does the opposite: it gives labor no power to govern the company. Capitalism and communism, oddly enough, are mirror images of each other, each one rejecting what the other worships.”
As the whole article argues, very successfully, capitalism, just like communism, is at the end of the road…
The future is upon us now; and we need a new system.
Fortunately, many aspects of this new system are slowly coming into existence these days.
I was wondering how the grotesque abdication of principle and responsibility by the major media in the last election was going to be played out; I mean the karmic counter slap. (“Abdication” of paper by former readership is one way.)
Try this: the media that hid Obama from public scrutiny also helped hide the real state-of mind of the American electorate from the administration. “Reading their own press” they didn’t expect this reaction to their magnanimous out reach; they don’t understand where it comes from, and they don’t know what to do about it.
A complete and surreptitious repackaging I don’t think they have time or patience for. I look for more shaming of the “clingers.” More ugly rhetoric, but with it a clearer highlighting of the real differences between “progressive” and traditional visions of American society.
Rush Limbaugh is making the same point, expect a flank attack.
I just sent this to my Representative:
“Thank you for your reply to my e-mail.
I believe that it is noteworthy that the House of Representatives and the Senate have a disproportionate number of lawyers AND tort reform is hardly mentioned in the discussions of skyrocketing health care costs.
How far is the current attitude from the conclusion of the Declaration of Independence:
“And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.”
I do not believe that the cost of health care for our fellow citizens can be lowered without addressing the burden imposed by unwarranted litigation and exorbitant awards.
In the early years of the 1990s I managed a small medical group of 4 surgeons. One of my responsibilities was to develop the fee schedule. I tried to do this fairly, for the patients and for the physicians. I also took care of the group’s accounts payable, so I paid the health insurance premiums. I can say without fear contradiction that the cost of health insurance for the group’s employees went up faster than the fees our physicians were charging went up.
I am not an advocate of the Federal government setting fees or premiums. I do believe the Federal government could do more to promote competition. One idea I read recently was for employers to issue vouchers to their employees so we could shop for health insurance.
I could take a lot more of my time and yours to continue, I will not do that at this time.
I will close with the assertion being made by others:
Sick people, and the elderly are more prone to all ailments, are the ones who cost. The President himself acknowledged that with a public option there would be pressure on the private sector, because of costs they bear that the government would not have to bear. He proposed no specific or concrete remedies. The public option will increasingly limit competition and by necessity ration health care as it tries to control costs.”
onesimus
#18
Let’s replicate the SEIU in private industry. What a great idea!
Permitting the unionization of Federal (and state employees) was about as destructive of representative government as it gets.
The takeover-of-the-healthcare system/Euthanasia-for-Granny program may be feeling the effects of opposition. But the game is not won. I am not at all confident that talk of backing off is not a tactical manouver to get them through to a vote. With 1018 pages released now, with another 1000+ pages probably not yet released, and with the certain addition of hundreds of pages of “amendments” moments before the vote; there is no way that we can know what is in whatever they pass until it is too late. Plus, the rule of law has been suspended by the regime, so even if the law says one thing they will do as they bloody well please regardless. Everything that comes out of the mouths of those who are no longer our countrymen is a lie; including the words ‘and’ and ‘the’. The very act of proposing H.R. 3200 is enough to require those who love this country to get rid of this lot of wanna-be dictators.
The Left’s online Socialist collective, the “Netroots” has annual conventions. Yesterday a Congressman Massa [D-NY] who was barely elected in a normally Republican district spoke to the convention and promised that he would vote for nationalized healthcare, even if it meant losing his seat, despite the fact that his district overwhelmingly opposes it. Further, he would vote for as much of a full government takeover as he could. Yet, he did not really seem all that worried about possibility of a loss. It makes one wonder what he knows that we don’t.
Yesterday, I was over at Victor Davis Hanson’s site; where I admit I think that they look at me askance far more than they do here [and that in itself is no trivial amount I'm sure]. The [short form] subject of his post was that Obama has passed his peak of power, and that now that his approval rating is at 50%, he cannot push things through at will, and that a revitalized Republican organized opposition may halt him.
As is usual, Dr. Hanson made very cogent comparisoms with Greek history [he is on a par with Wretchard as far as quality of his forum, albeit with a far more formal scholarly approach.]; and I [ and other BC'ers] replied. If Wretchard will allow, I will cross post what I did said there, as the future of the healthcare plan in the face of the opposition bears on both matters. If this is not allowed, please feel free to delete the entire post, and accept my apologies.
—–
Professor Hanson,
I could not, and would not, argue with you drawing the accurate parallels between our situation and the Greek. However, I fear that your faith in the ability of the country to endure and recover may be misplaced, as our situation is different from any previously encountered here.
Previous presidents who have taken us down the path of Cleon could at least be said to have loved the country or at least not hated it, and to have had at least a minimal respect for the Constitution. That does not obtain now.
We have voted in the far Left. Their every action proclaims it. I would most respectfully ask you, if you can cite one example from classical history where a society has gone down the “Path of Cleon” and recovered absent major civil violence, if at all.
Then we have more modern history to deal with. In modern times, when has a Leftist regime yielded power to an honest election barring the active threat of civil disorder or war? I will note that the Sandinistas in Nicaragua had the threat for insurgency to deal with.
Consider the regime’s [I use the term "regime" advisedly. Once they suspended the normal course of bankruptcy law without statutory authority to do so, backed with government threats to creditors; the concept of "regime risk" familiar to investors overseas suddenly applied domestically.] history of property expropriation, suspension of rule of law, their tolerance and encouragement of both physical intimidation of voters and citizens exercising their rights of petition and grievance against Congressmen, along with financing vote, registration, and presumably census fraud; and the actions of Democrats in Congress during the recess. These are not the actions of a party or regime that intends ever to yield power.
The refusal of Democrats to meet with aggrieved constituents at town halls, or to try to limit the meetings to forums where they control the access and questions, and the happy acceptance by Democrat members of Congress of “protection” from government directed union thugs; are not actions of politicians who believe that they have any reason to ever fear the voters again.
This does not present encouraging signs for a peaceful recovery. I will venture a prediction. IF, after the recess the Democrats force through [with possibly the help of the usual cast of renegade Republicans, although strictly speaking there are enough Democrats to do it without the Democrat-wannabees] H.R. 3200 and especially if Cap and Trade is forced through shortly thereafter; despite the opposition of the public … expect the 2010 elections to be rendered moot. It could be based on an ‘Enabling Act’ triggered by an incident, or a level of vote fraud sufficient to make Zelayo qvell with joy. But this regime will have shown that it does not fear the consequences of facing the voters no matter what they do.
For those who discount the possibility of that level of vote fraud; I offer the huge number of false registrations that have been accumulated on the books since Federal law restricted the ability to purge the rolls, repeated examples of urban vote totals surpassing the numbers of men, women, children, and household pets in the areas concerned, the activities [now funded by literally billions of Stimulus dollars] of ACORN to add even more false registrations that can be voted, the refusal of Democrat elected officials to remove or move to ‘provisional ballot status’ known false registrations, the multiple rulings by the courts that no one has standing to sue to have election laws enforced, and finally the miraculous ability in the last few election cycles for Democrats to discover boxes full of ballots in their homes and vehicles months after the election and get them counted in any close election. Add to that the forced conversion to electronic voting systems, several of which have been proven to be subject to hacking and tampering from a distance. I do not know about anyone else, but my confidence in the validity of the American vote count is far from absolute. I further suspect that I am not alone.
Finally, the concept of the Institutional Republican party coming up with a program of systematic political opposition to the Democrats is chimerical. Whiskey hit a number of points squarely, including the nature of the irreconcilable differences between the elites and the mass of the people. The Institutional Republican party has far more affinity for the Democratic regime than they have for their own base, for which they have absolute contempt. There were closer ties between the Second and Third Estates in France in 1789, than between the Institutional Republican Party and the American people. And the Second Estate and the Institutional Republican “leadership” share the same attitudes.
I am not sanguine about the prospects for the future, even if we avoid economic collapse.
Subotai Bahadur
————–
Regardless of the bill’s fate, until every proponent of H.R. 3200 has been dead and buried with a wooden stake stake in his/her heart for several years, it is not safe to let our guard down in any fashion.
Subotai Bahadur
Watched the EWTN editorial program “The World Over” last night with Raymond Arroyo, the guests were Sister Carol Keehan, of the Catholic Health Association, and Judi Brown of the American Life League.
Keehan supports the public option, and Arroyo and Brown were opposed on the grounds that in addition to rationing of care, it would also compel Catholic healthcare workers to act against their conscience in matters of life.
What struck me though was that two times Keehan justified the idea of a public option solely on the notion that by having government provided and regulated healthcare, we would finally have a system of healthcare “worthy of our society.”
I think this gets to the root of the problem for the left. In addition to those who would exercise control over others, there are also those who do not recognize an enterprise as legitimate until it is enshrined in law and empowered by the state.
That the same argument can be made for religion doesn’t seem to have occurred to the good sister.
I look forward to getting a blessing from my Government-sanctioned [!] priest. What human enterprise should not be nationalized?
Wretchard, #2: What really worries me is that the liberals know exactly how narrow their actual mandate is but are prepared to proceed anyway. I think it’s doubtful that BHO is completely unaware of the margins by which predecessors were elected and it is precisely the precariousness of his position which makes the imperative to “reform” so much more urgent.
This gets us back to the phenomenon of “retrospective voting”, by which an unknown, but widely believed to be fairly large percentage of voters follow U.S. politics only casually, if at all, up until just before an election, at which point they simply vote for incumbents if their little corner of the economy is humming along, or to “throw the bums out” when times aren’t so good.
Barack Obama won the White House last year, in no small part on the backs of retrospective voters who took one look at the state of the economy, and one look at the (R) next to the names of George W. Bush and John McCain, and made up their minds accordingly. But Obama’s attempts to nationalize health care and other vast swaths of the U.S. economy not only threaten to turn these voters against him in 2012 for the usual reason (i.e. because the economy’s still bad), but also have managed to get the attention of many (formerly) retrospective voters – and not in a good way – long before the election cycle is up.
If the issue was the reform of the medical care system, we would see an incremental approach with bipartisan support after open debate. There is much that can be done which would be non-controversial. But that is not what this is about.
This current round of foolishness is not going to get through congress, thanks to the public outcry. When they feel the heat, they see the light.
But, at some point, congress is going to have to address the fundamental unsustainability of Medicare and, the elephant in the living room, of social security.
A big part of our problem is that we already have public funding for those over 65, a group I will join within a year. There is not enough money in the system, arguably not enough in the economy, to provide all the possible medical treatment available for the Boomers when they become eligible for Medicare. The train wreck is coming: can it be mitigated? Will it? Certainly not with anything on the table now.
For those that can afford it, we will see an increase in “medical tourism”. For those that can’t, we must inevitably see some form of triage, i.e. rationing of medical treatment, either by time spent waiting or by some form of government agency. We aren’t there yet, which is why the current bills will fail, but the writing is on the wall.
Frankly, I’m surprised that Congressmen are even bothering to have townhall meetings. But I guess they must make a show of listening, as old habits linger on for a little while longer.
And what is the difference between the health care bill that is going over like “a lead balloon” and an incremental approach that would mollify all the opposition? Only time. Whether we get there via the local line or the express, the destination’s the same.
#26 Karen Yvonne
I rather suspect that this is the last year you will see town hall meetings used as a common tactic by incumbent members of Congress. With the numbers who have cancelled them, and with the chance to “feel the love” that those who held them got; I can see a tacit agreement by both parties to sever the last opportunity to call an incumbent to account. Expect to see any further public meetings conducted only by expendable staffers.
Subotai Bahadur
18. Amit Green:
“Key point “Communism negated the role of capital in creating value and gave no representation to capital in company governance. Capitalism, by and large, does the opposite: it gives labor no power to govern the company. Capitalism and communism, oddly enough, are mirror images of each other, each one rejecting what the other worships.”
Ichak Adizes….world renown architect of business, icon to many, is a bit confused on the role of Communism vs. Capitalism in this offered statement.
Far from capitalism giving labor no power in governing the company I would say this.
Workers are allowed and encouraged to buy stock in a capitalist company. Usually their company but in the overall capitalist system it doesn’t matter which company. Many do. Each has a vote for the Board of Directors and each many band together to increase their voice and votes for the direction of the company. Most abdicated this right, but it nonetheless makes the above statement a nullity since the worker does indeed have power. In the communist system they have the “reeducation station”
Currently obama, his minions, and the world communists are trying to destroy the capitalist system so in the future the statement may be correct, but for now capitalism remains not the mirror image of communism but the sword of Damocles over its head.
“”"”"There is something disquietingly spooky about Howard Dean’s sense of destiny; his dead certainty over the direction “generational change” must take”"”"”
Just one of a long and dreary list of creepy/spooky statements by this party and administration. Similar things were noticed by the Washington Times editorial page last Sunday about Ezekiel Emanuel and John Holdren:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/aug/16/health-rationing-by-other-names/
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/aug/16/obamas-mad-science-adviser/
This clueless ghoulishness — echoed by Obama himself — must be played up by the opposition, and they must hammer at it ceaselessly and repeatedly.
The Obama administration and the Democratic Party leadership are starting to come across like the zombies and pod people in a cheap horror movie. Keep pointing this out, and keep quoting these clueless clowns. They are becoming a “Kevorkiacracy.”
HUMAN HUSBANDRY:
Rather than people, we are now being thought of as a commodity, like livestock. This preoccupation with coupling good health to an individual’s utility to the greater society is part of what is behind leftist health care policy.
GOOD OR EXCELLENT HEALTH ARE OVERRATED AS A VALUE TO SOCIETY
I know that sounds provocative on the face of it, but here’s the context:
While as individuals we value good health for ourselves and our loved ones, and many of us strive for excellent health and general robustness, in a modern, civilized society one can lead a full life even without optimal health. This has been true for centuries, and many of the western world’s greatest luminaries have achieved astounding things despite suffering from poor health. In a time in human history, again going back centuries, where we don’t have to hunt mastodon to survive, it is the human intellect that is supposed to be paramount.
Postmodern leftism would have us believe that people of less than optimal health represent a defect in spite of their other capabilities. The fact that an obese scientist can find a cure for a disease, or a chain-smoking astronomer can make astounding discoveries is of secondary importance to our would-be insectoid overlords.
I also find the rationale that robust health is necessary “for greater productivity” to be laughable when you consider that those who harp on “lost productivity” are usually the same crowd that hampers American productivity by other means. Americans have been among the most productive people of modern times despite expanding wastelines, aching backs and frequent colds. Again, trimmer waists, healthy backs, fewer colds, and fewer bad health habits are great things to have, but we still manage to do very well in spite of our health and fitness shortcomings.
HUMAN HUSBANDRY:
Rather than people, we are now being thought of as a commodity, like livestock. This preoccupation with coupling good health to an individual’s utility to the greater society is part of what is behind leftist health care policy.
GOOD OR EXCELLENT HEALTH ARE OVERRATED AS A VALUE TO SOCIETY
I know that sounds provocative on the face of it, but here’s the context:
While as individuals we value good health for ourselves and our loved ones, and many of us strive for excellent health and general robustness, in a modern, civilized society one can lead a full life even without optimal health. This has been true for centuries, and many of the western world’s greatest luminaries have achieved astounding things despite suffering from poor health. In a time in human history, again going back centuries, where we don’t have to hunt mastodon to survive, it is the human intellect that is supposed to be paramount.
Postmodern leftism would have us believe that people of less than optimal health represent a defect in spite of their other capabilities. The fact that an obese scientist can find a cure for a disease, or a chain-smoking astronomer can make astounding discoveries is of secondary importance to our would-be insectoid overlords.
P.S. – Sorry, forgot to tell you great post!
The Dems intend to pass a public option, public opinion be damned. For those interested in anecdotal info:
I just returned from a town hall held by my Congressman, Rick Boucher of Virginia’s 9th District. Except for two small union groups and a couple of ACORN student workers, the crowd was vociferously anti-government health care — we stood, booed, and howled a lot. A variety of intelligent, articulate opponents of Obamacare spoke — including doctors — pleading with Boucher to consider tort reform, transportability, the COB cost estimates, inefficiencies in British and Canadian care, etc, many weaving their pleas around personal health care stories.
Boucher refused to budge from eventually supporting a public option. To each objection, he’d say, “Yes, I’m aware of that, but…” followed by an example where a public option was needed. His most telling statement was, “The general public is not aware of the complexity of [this issue].”
He’s been in Congress 28 years, a kind of “Blue Dog” who’s slyly supported gun rights and tobacco and farming and coal, while voting liberal on social issues. He’ll vote for some form of Obamacare this fall and take his chances for reelection.
Now is the time, while they are back on their heels or getting ready to sneak in the back door, to get inside their OODA loop by attacking the political proponents of this leftist nonsense and doing so unremittingly and without mercy.
Absolutely. Everyone needs to double down on whatever they are doing to stop this, because the Left is not giving in. This is only the beginning of the beginning.
Roderick Reilly,
Kevorkiacracy,
That is excellent. We need to buy or build billboards everywhere. Right now CBS/Viacom has a lock on that industry. My idea is simple graphics, photos of Emmanuel and Dean one or two others (hold off on using Obama’s image until he goes down another 10 points in the polls) with a stark slogan,
Merchants of Death.
The same tactic should be used with images of Dodd and Franks and Rezco and Gorelick. Their slogan,
Poverty Pimps.
Then watch the lawyers and local governments and media go crazy trying to shut it down.
The editorial from the NYT that ran the “General Betray Us” ad will be a joy to read. We could start writing it now ourselves for fun.
Habu @28: Workers are allowed and encouraged to buy stock in a capitalist company… Most abdicated this right, but it nonetheless makes the above statement a nullity since the worker does indeed have power.
An important distinction you’ve made, Habu. A worker who buys stock is ponying up his own personal stake. The kind of power that appeals to those with socialist/communist leanings is the kind of power that is simply handed to them free of charge. They demand power that costs them nothing, but of course the end result is that the average person is stripped of any power at all.
This drive for the state to take over healthcare is the same sort of illegitimate desire that will bring its due reward.
Subotai @22 & 27: My sentiments exactly. I regret the pessimism, I really do. Mongoose keeps saying that it will all hang on the nature of the American character. Traditionally, that has meant, among other things, independence, self-reliance and of course optimism – traits regularly on display here from BC commenters. I see that traditional American character as a product of a Judeo-Christian-dominated consensus and our prosperity was the byproduct. That broad consensus no longer exists. Now society’s only common value seems to be simply our material well-being, of which healthcare is a major component.
#22 Subotai Bahadur, RE: I am not sanguine about the prospects for the future, even if we avoid economic collapse.:
This country has survived a lot worse than the current health care proposal, examples:
(1) The election of 1800, which took 35 votes over 7 days to resolve in the house of representative efore Jefferson was elected President: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_1800
(2) See also the two corrupt bargains for president: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrupt_Bargain
(3) The Civil war
(4) The Great Depression
(5) World War II & Roosevelt’s central control of the economy
It will clearly survive what Obama proposes & America will prosper in the future — no need to panic.
Mike Hammock explains it well in a post on surviving Ruin in a Nation:
‘Adam smith wrote “Be assured, my young friend, that there is a great deal of ruin in a nation”. By this he meant that every nation has in it a great deal of good and a great deal of bad, yet things keep moving along. It is very hard to screw things up very badly and irreparably.’ – See: http://mikehammock.blogspot.com/2008/10/ruin-in-nation.html
#28 Habu, RE: Each has a vote for the Board of Directors and each many band together to increase their voice and votes for the direction of the company. Most abdicated this right, but it nonetheless makes the above statement a nullity since the worker does indeed have power.
Stockholders do *not* have any real control over large companies, via the board of directors.
Once the company is sufficiently large, the board of directors, in reality, becomes a captive of management — and you now have a system, that over time, contains the seeds of its own destruction. More importantly, the corporation often ends up hurting its own shareholders, employees, & society at large [RE: All the banks, wall street firms, etc. that have gone caput last year, causing our current economic distress].
Secondly, the ability of management to declare bankruptcy, and escape control of the stockholders [the judicial bankruptcy courts in America will now defend the same management that drove the company into bankrupty from the shareholders (!??) --- this is insane] really shows that, for a large company, management controls the company, not the board of directors nor the shareholders.
The way the stockholders, in reality, do excercise power over corporations is via Congress. The ability of the government to tax, control monopolies, set rules, regulate, etc, is how the will of the people is used to control corporations.
This power, via Congress, is neccessary, because without it, corporations grow too powerful and destructive.
However, this power of the government, has very grave risks, because when abused, as currently with the health care debate — where it can shift too much power towards government.
If Obama succeeds with his plan, the power of government over all the economy related to health care, insurance, etc, will be far too great — and business will be so weakened, as to probably, overall set America towards a decline of a few years before we recover (but we will recover).
We should no more worship capitalism than the communism has been worshiped.
I don’t think Adizes point was that we want to combine values from Communism with capitalism, and he never said that .. that clearly would be a terrible mistake.
We do, however, need something better than the current version of capitalism, which lets large corporations be so destructive … and the tempering of Capitalism by Democracy is not working so well lately.
Its too bad we can’t start a seperate thread on this topic … I’m starting to feel guilty about thread highjacking …
#31 Saltlick, RE: Absolutely. Everyone needs to double down on whatever they are doing to stop this, because the Left is not giving in. This is only the beginning of the beginning.
So the real question is … for those of us that care … What can we do to help? Talking on blogs is only useful to a certain extent … How do we convert talk into action?
Subotai Bahadur,
When I can’t read the entire post and all the comments here, I scroll. I doubt that I ever do not pause and read yours sir. Therefore, in conjunction with our present government’s outlawry, I offer the following link to the current issue of Hillsdale College’s Imprimis, it is available on line at:
http://tinyurl.com/24y6tk
onesimus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXWmVBadWvU
See the above for the Left’s arrogance on full display.
Eric Massa, Dem.- NY, declaring at the Nutroots convention that his constituents are all a bunch of rightwing Republicans, and that he will “absolutely vote against their interests” on socialized medicine. He also says that he’s not holding any more town hall meetings, because “every time we hold one of those, we lose 3 million votes.”
Three million votes.
Dr. Dean and I have nothing in common in our beliefs. However, in this case, Dean had it right – The Debate is over. In other words, the battle line had been drawn. There is no more convincing ‘the other side’. Anybody telling you they have not made up their minds? Either they lied (maybe unintentionally) or they never will.
I’ve wondered since Nov 08, the left had been increasingly ‘careless’ letting their masks drop. They don’t even pretend they are not facists anymore.
Just the other day, I observed that the left (and their controlled Dem party) behaved as if their hold on the majority in this country will be permanent (at least in their minds).
Speaking for myself, I am afraid….
Habu: 1) Stock ownership and option packages offered to Labor would seem the best solutions to the threat Labor Unions pose to our system–this alternative path is indeed the one to take.
2) Remember that Capitalism is primarily a resource management discipline or technique, and a darn good one too; it is not really an ideology in a fundamental philosophic or political sense, nor is is at root a moral code. This is not so say that it does not tend to enfore some moral precepts or lead to some reasonable mores, but it is limited in its reach and dependent upon the world in which it sits. Capitalism, of course, flourishes when it is nestled in a broader civilization that values the individual in its mortality and legal codes. It is safe to say that capitalism is a creation of our civilization and neither coequal to it ir a summation of it.
Our civilization, heretofore at least, has stood on 3 legs: Capitalism; Classical Liberal notions of limited government and individual right drawn from the pragmatic thought, practice and traditions of the Angloshpere, and the moral legacy of the Judeo-Cristian tradition.
It is important to note this, for to engage in a comparison between socialism, which is much more than a resource management technique, and capitalism is really to ask the wrong question.
What the real conflict is one between a whole and developed civilization and a derivative, decadent and parasitic ideology, not the choice between two ideologies. When we for get this we tend to put ourselves at a disadvantage when faced with our enemy.
What the real conflict is one between a whole and developed civilization and a derivative, decadent and parasitic ideology=What the real conflict is one between a whole and developed civilization and a derivative, decadent and parasitic ideology masquerading as one.
sorry.
Howlin’ Howie sez: “majority of the protesters at the town halls were older people, and their group was getting smaller and smaller.”
Dear Howard,
More Boomers are hitting their retirement years than their elders are dying off. The numbers of those older people isn’t getting smaller. It’s getting larger and larger. And they (we) know that you want us to die off more quickly so that:
1. You have more health care money to divert to pet projects.
2. You can loot our retirement funds sooner for your pet projects.
3. You can increase size of the dependent class to the entire population and coerce them into funding your pet projects.
Two words Howie. Twenty Ten.
RR says:
Postmodern leftism would have us believe that people of less than optimal health represent a defect in spite of their other capabilities. The fact that an obese scientist can find a cure for a disease, or a chain-smoking astronomer can make astounding discoveries is of secondary importance to our would-be insectoid overlords.
programmer ponders: There is some darn good ol’ political mockery in that there “insectoid overlords” comment. You keep up the good work, lad. I thought that ol’ Rahm feller looked awfully like a “preying” mantis. Probably was just the way the LIGHT caught him.
incremental approach fixing what was broken instead of trying to redo the whole system was a wiser way to go
He is attempting to imply he believes that Obama’s plan is unwise in its entirety. I think he’s lying. He really means that they should have attempted to implement the plan piecemeal rather than in one go.
programmer is right –liberalism is smiling predation, ridiculing prey into defenselessness.
re: 43 AmitGreen: It will clearly survive what Obama proposes & America will prosper in the future — no need to panic.
Yes, survived worse, though I doubt the survivors would wave away the effort and hardships with a dismissal to “not panic”. I believe they would instead counsel us to prepare and then prepare some more.
I might be reading out of context, were you instead trying to lift spirits? I’m convinced we’ll make better of it in the end, I’m convinced we have no choice to.
Just havng this blog as a wonderful resource has made a world of difference for me. Ideas and even just knowing like minded individuals are out there besides the far out swamps gives me optimism.
Okay, end of group hug crap, back to topic: If the parasite is so deeply embedded that it’s removal is all but sure to kill the host, how do we go about it? Letters to recalcitrant congressmen (themselves tax-eaters) and votes that sway nothing in a rigged contest aren’t going to make the difference. If the healthcare and cap and trade bills get midnight expressed through and into law, what recourse do we have? 2010 won’t matter at that point. Whiskey’s idea of showing the opposition the 3 degrees awaiting them if these things do get passed has merit, the pickle is an uncooperative media. Could such a campaign be done using only the internet as it’s tranmission method?
Hmm, how to prevent the 2010 election from being stolen, a precinct by precinct plan.
34. Amit Green:
You made several statements after saying,” Stockholders do *not* have any real control over large companies, via the board of directors.
The initial paragraph attempts to present a impotent stockholder captive after a tipping point is reached by nefarious individuals. Only if the stockholders do not exercise their vote does this happen. Unfortunately as I stated, most stockholders do not stay informed and capitulate, a far cry from *NOT* having any power.
Your second point about bankruptcy only has currency due to the recent events. Healthy corporations can not and DO NOT simply declare bankruptcy to avoid a stockholder revolt.
Your other points are well taken.
Bobby Jindal had a good critique of Obamacare: “How to Make Health Care Reform Bipartisan,” Wall Street Journal, July 22, 2009.
Unfortunately he uses big words like “falsehoods” and “disingenously” instead of simple words like “lies” and “liars.” I haven’t seen too much of Bobby. Are the media giving him any attention?
Bobby is going to look good to the “retrospective” voters Joshua mentions, above. Maybe the stock value of honest elected wonks is going to go up.
Mongoose’s comment on parasites is on target. There is an old theme of “winners and wasters,” i.e., those who are productive and those who are not. The ants and the grasshoppers.
For Buddhists, the anwer to “what does the world rest on” results in the answer “an elephant.” And what does that elephant stand on? The reply? “It’s elephants all the way down.” For liberals, the answer to “who pays for it?” seems to be, eventually, “It’s free all the way down.”
I have found a policy study at the Heartland Institute by Peter J. Ferrara.
http://tinyurl.com/mu8z4h
Policy suggestions begin on page 27 of the PDF file. Topics addressed are:
Focusing on the Truly Needy,
Reform Medicaid,
State High-Risk Pools,
Guaranteed Renewability,
Reducing Health Insurance Costs,
Medical Malpractice Reform, and
Health Savings Accounts.
Again, these charlatans are advancing on a broad front, how we need another Ronald Reagan with the intelligence, wit, and charm to confront them. I feel like I am trying to bail on the Titanic with a teacup.
onesimus
#31 Saltlick, RE:Everyone needs to double down on whatever they are doing to stop this…
**So the real question is … How do we convert talk into action?
Amit — I’m not a community organizer, so I doubt I can tell you anything you don’t already know. But FWIW–
First, don’t listen to people who tell you opposition is futile, that doing all the things you already know how to do — write and call your Congressman, write letters to the editor, cancel subscriptions, etc — haven’t had any effect so far and won’t because we are on a glide path to slavery, whether Democrats or Republicans are in charge. You have to keep pushing back. Sometimes a rock cracks just when you think it’s showing no stress.
When George Washington turned around and recrossed the icy Delaware at Trenton, his army numbered 2000, down from the 20,000 he’d had only six months before at Brooklyn. That ragged remnant of an army stood shivering in the snow, waiting their turns to board the boats, as their officers read from Tom Paine’s “The Crisis” — “These are the times that try men’s souls,” etc. Then they carried the hopes of mankind across that river on their bayonets and produced a little victory that rejuvenated the Patriot cause. It looked impossible. It was not. And few people know it was only one of three attacks planned for that night. The other two failed.
After you do the things you learned in civics class, you join a group of people you think will accomplish your goals. The local Tea Parties are gathering in Washington, D.C., September 12, the Saturday after Congress comes back from recess. I’ll be there. Pushing back.
That’s all I can tell you. Just take action.
“”"”There is some darn good ol’ political mockery in that there “insectoid overlords” comment.”"”"
Mockery? Since these creepmeisters want to run the world like it’s one big termite mound, I would say that those chiseled looks of both Emanuel brothers are barely disguised exoskeletons
“”"”"When George Washington turned around and recrossed the icy Delaware at Trenton, his army numbered 2000, down from the 20,000 he’d had only six months before at Brooklyn.”"”"”"
In other words, “He fought with the army he had.”
AW @ 23:
What struck me though was that two times Keehan justified the idea of a public option solely on the notion that by having government provided and regulated healthcare, we would finally have a system of healthcare “worthy of our society.”
Her comments point to the ‘why’ of the Vatican ‘review’ of American nuns.
Has anyone else noticed that, usually, the most ardent proponents of euthanasia and unrestricted abortion are also ardent opponents of the death penalty for criminals?
I think that they should be confronted on this.
#20 Onesimus
Thank you for pointing out the pink elephant in the room that many seem to not want to see.
(Dr.) Howard Dean: “The only piece of reform worth doing…is the public option.”
Tort reform…not worth doing. Not even worth mentioning, apparently. Why not? Because lawyers represent too rich of a interest group. So it’s off the table…not even worth considering.
Government takeover of health care? Has to be done…look at the bang up job the VA is doing. Sure, they don’t know how to clean colonoscopy equipment properly, but trust them anyway.
What is the definition of corruption again? (Unfortunately the opposition party is no less corrupt.)
Anybody ever play the computer game Civilization? Amongst the different government types one can choose, Democracy is supposed to have a much lower level of corruption than, say, communism. I’m beginning to wonder whether the game creator, Sid Meier, will have to revise that for the next addition…
#44 LFMayor If the healthcare and cap and trade bills get midnight expressed through and into law, what recourse do we have? 2010 won’t matter at that point … the pickle is an uncooperative media. Could such a campaign be done using only the internet as it’s tranmission method?
(1) Yes, this blog is a wonderful resource — So then my natural question is: How to expand it, so many others benefit? This ties into the next point …
(2) A part of an overall strategy has to be to use the internet to help supplement (but not replace) the media. People need better information so they can make better decisions (not that they always will, but at least they then have the opportunity) How to do that?
#46 Habu. The initial paragraph attempts to present a impotent stockholder captive after a tipping point is reached by nefarious individuals … Unfortunately as I stated, most stockholders do not stay informed and capitulate, a far cry from *NOT* having any power
The fact that most stockholders do not stay informed and capitulate, mean that in reality … I as a stockholder, with 0.01% ownership … have no power … since I can’t find enough like-minded shareholders to vote with me … and therefore … neither do others stockholders have power. Until enough stockholders pay attention, no stockholder has any real power.
Thus the system is fundamentally broken. This part of Capitalism needs to change. We cannot continue the way we are going.
(Also the management is not nefarious; they are mostly individuals trying to do the best job they can. The system is defective, not the people).
#49 Saltlick After you do the things you learned in civics class, you join a group of people you think will accomplish your goals
Yes, I am going to join my local tea party. It is neccessary; but not sufficient.
I think there are a lot of people here who can also help a lot with strategy & action.
The question is: Will we?
Regarding this, Wretchard’s post on without borders: http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/07/27/without-borders/ said The Belmont Club has a fatal flaw. It is trapped in the dimension of ideas. Within its pages a dozen possibilities struggle to escape. Few will succeed.
That post spawned two groups, but neither has gone very far.
So my question again is: for those of us that care … What can we do to help? Talking on blogs is only useful to a certain extent … How do we convert talk into action?
Can we do something to help the Belmont Club escape its fatal flaw of being trapped in the dimension of ideas?
Amit Green@55 asks:
Can we do something to help the Belmont Club with its fatal flaw & help it escape being trapped in the dimension of ideas?
programmer opines: I claim that the flaw referenced by our kind host is perhaps not necessarily fatal.
We, each of us, take those ideas from here. Some, we share with others as a small light to keep the dark at bay. Others, we use to blunt the force of an attack, spin and throw uke, as it were.
Buckminster Fuller said it better than I can:
Something hit me very hard once, thinking about what one little man could do. Think of the Queen Mary — the whole ship goes by and then comes the rudder. And there’s a tiny thing at the edge of the rudder called a trimtab.
It’s a miniature rudder. Just moving the little trim tab builds a low pressure that pulls the rudder around. Takes almost no effort at all. So I said that the little individual can be a trimtab. Society thinks it’s going right by you, that it’s left you altogether. But if you’re doing dynamic things mentally, the fact is that you can just put your foot out like that and the whole big ship of state is going to go.
So I said, call me Trimtab.
@18. AG; Not a new system, a return to the Ten Commandments and the Constitution of the U.S.A.
@herb, Its in the nature of fascists to attempt to crush opposition. Fixed it for you.
I don’t think they look like the Preying Mantis. They look like cockroaches and German ones at that.
Active participation is the disinfectant that will remove the parasite without killing the host. And I will be at the 9/12 protest in DC as well. I will be bringing a hand bell with me to ring. I suggest that all of those attending and those unable to be there to be somewhere in public that day ringing their bell as well.
The mountain will move if you believe truly believe. Because a true belief will cause action. Hoffer was correct in his assertion that frustrated humans look for any cause to belong to. They just want to belong. They want to feel as though they are part of a larger movement. That is the strength of the TEA Party movement.
The internet and it’s ability to give voice to other than the entrenched media will be the sword of Damocles. Just look at China and Iran. But the Key to all of this is for individuals to seek education and enlightenment.
Everyone seeks the truth, only those with courage to open their minds to the possibility that it may not lead them where they perceive the destination to be will ever possess it.
For the first time in living memory more than a million people are exercising the forgotten right – ” or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
This before health care even came up. This is not going away. Nothing Obama and his gang do is going to stop this speeding train. The people are aroused and they are pissed.
Something I find startling:
The slain witch of the North arises from the dead and from her igloo at the North Pole puts pen to her Facebook. Two words: “Death Panels”. These two words have drawn the attention of the world directly on her. She has taken charge of the debate with two words.
Can’t quite remember that ever happening before.
Yo Programmer @56, I expect you know that Trimtab is the Newsletter of the Buckminster Fuller Institute
. Thanks for bringing that up, I’m sure many Belmont Club members would enjoy perusing Bucky’s Critical Path World Game ideas.
I visited the Bucky show at the Whitney last year, they had the last surviving Dymaxion car there and an overwhelming (as usual) helping of Bucky’s drawings, models, and best of all, multi-colored handwritten depictions of his philosophy and mad genius. Mad me laugh out loud in glee at points.
At the other end of the intellectual spectrum, some politicians try to dumb down the world, as in this infuriating example:
Think about it. Hundreds of millions of dollars for an alternate second engine for the Joint Strike Fighter—when one reliable engine will do just fine. Nearly two billion dollars to buy more F-22 fighter jets when we can move ahead with a fleet of newer, more affordable aircraft. Tens of billions of dollars to put an anti-missile laser on a fleet of vulnerable 747s.
If I commented on our President’s comments above in depth and detail, I’m afraid I’d pound the keys through my laptop keyboard. Let’s just note that the F-22 is designed for a completely different mission – a much more strategic, determinative mission – than the F-35. Arrrrrrgggggghhhhhhh I love the Belmont Club. Thanks guys.
#58 Roy Lofquist, RE: The slain witch of the North arises from the dead and from her igloo at the North Pole puts pen to her Facebook. Two words: “Death Panels”. These two words have drawn the attention of the world directly on her. She has taken charge of the debate with two words.
Roy, Yes, that has been totally amazing to watch.
The best comment I found on the the whole death panel is by Mark Steyn in Give me Liberty or give me Death:
My comments on Mark’s article are here: Live Free or Die – The government works for the people in America
Maybe the witch can do some good; one can always hope she combines good strategy with her other abilities …
F-22 is a war-winner and the very best way to never use a war-winner is to have ‘enough’ of them. This is so elementary, Mr. President, that one wonders –since you are clearly smart enough to be elected –why you can’t ‘get it’.
Roy Lofquist #58: “Evil Empire”.
55. Amit Green:
Pissing contest:
NOT..definition; A logical operator that returns a false value if the operand is true and a true value if the operand is false.
As in NOT MANY or NOT MUCH… it however does not mean NONE.
Amit,
Saw your comment. Goodo!
The above was an excerpt of a comment at Maggie’s Farm. I post the full comment to complete the train of thought.
——–
For the first time we are seeing more than a million people exercise a constitutional right that has been forgotten:
” or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
And they refuse to identify with any political party. They are absolutely dominating all media and the internet. They are driving the public debate by their actions. They are leaderless and adamantly refuse to accept leadership.
And then a woman arises from the dead and from her igloo at the north pole puts pen to her Facebook.
And all eyes are on her. She gave focus to the confusion of the many issues – taxes, spending, deficits, healthcare – and spoke the magic words: “Death Panels!”
In all my life I’ve never seen anybody take control of the debate with two words.
There is a great restless citizen army mustering in this land. She just may have become the commander in chief with just two words.
If you start to see hand painted signs proclaiming NO DEATH PANELS! then we’ll see if that’s happening.
Buddy, you just don’t get it! The F22 gives our side an UNFAIR advantage in any hassling that may erupt. We simply cannot be allowed to take advantage of mortal enemies that way.
Why, I bet you and Sarah Palin both disapprove of giving ballistic missles a free ride into our back yards. For shame! For shame! You will never make Quisling First Class this way.
Now hand over the keys to your “Fjord” 150.
Back to the longboat for you for remedial pillaging and plundering.
Wretchard at 15 . That Whittle piece is an eye-opener. Is it possible that the conservatives can’t find one rich person like Soros to fund this kind of iconography and flood the country with it. The moment Obamaman is not “cool”, the moment things will really start to fall apart for him and his flunkeys.
Do these things violate some copyright or something that prevents a rebuttal iconography? Also, I was surprised that it did not generate more comment on this thread cause it blew me away.
Thanks for the kind words. This is about Obama killing Granny, but as Dean suggests, it is also about Dems killing Granny. Granny is too old, too White, and too socially conservative to be allowed to live. Unfortunately, Logan’s Run as the model for society runs into inconvenient facts:
1. There are not that many young White people.
2. The Young are mostly Mexican, and thus transferring money by killing Granny to provide health care to Mexican immigrants, most of them illegal, ticks of middle aged people — these kids don’t look like their grand-kids.
3. Racism charges etc are played out.
Obama is planning to Rahm this through via conference with as little as fifty votes. The key is of course, to out Alinsky his Alinsky tactics.
Kos believes it’s boycott campaign against Beck (Wal-Mart, Best Buy, and CVS have dropped him as a sponsor) will force him off the air and they are probably right.
We need a counter-boycott. This means a boycott of any company that has done business with say, Howard Dean. Plus a viral campaign to unearth anything embarassing or humiliating against Dean’s family. Publicizing it and even marching around his wife (who is some sort of professional) and children. Trig Palin was not off limits, why should Dean’s kids be off limits?
Dean needs to know fear, and Dean needs to be made a useful example. “Look we are the people. We have our own power. We can DESTROY YOU as you can destroy us. Cross us at your peril.”
This is the message that needs to be sent out, and Dean must be humiliated, with every dirty deal, nasty secret, and ugly bit of corruption exposed to public light. He’s a politician. By definition, he is dirty. Quite likely, so is his family.
Hey guys, it’s not just the F-22, it’s Tens of billions of dollars to put an anti-missile laser on a fleet of vulnerable 747s.
Can you imagine, big fat old airliners, 747′s, probably with who knows, 400 regular folks sitting in the sits, just trying to go see their grandma in Detroit or Seattle or Waikiki or someplace, and they don’t even know that Halliburton put some kind of strange-assed laser beams on their plane to shoot down what, flying saucers, some ICBM’s from the cold war, the Wicked Witch of the West, what the hell are they up there for? None of that stuff works, we all know that, how are those poor folks in the 747′s gonna dogfight with a laser beam? I just don’t know. And it’s gotta stop, now!
ok, Dave, no more quisling. didn’t mean to get you thor at me. When i get the urge to quizzle, i’ll just lay back and think of Hilldegaard Clintoon.
Tony: FWIW: Several years ago when it was decided to try and build an airborne laser system the very first mockup was done on the hulk of an Air India 747 located in the Mojave scrap heap and taken over to Edwards.
That way, the boys had a genuine fuselage in which to work and it didn’t cost anything.
That is what started rumors about putting military weapons on civilian passenger liners.
On the contrary, time is on the Dems side. In this fast food, instant society where waiting in a bank teller’s line for more than 10 minutes will result in many walking out of the bank to come back later, do you really believe the protesting crowds will be able to persevere? They will grow tired quickly. They will become weary. They will ring the teller bell in protest and expect instant action. When their congressman or senator stalls, patronizes, pretends to listen, they will believe their protests worked. When they realize the opposite is true they will grow tired quickly and leave the bank. There’s just too many other things that occupy their minds. Attention spans are just too limited these days to muster an extended battle. When the going gets tough, Quick, change the channel, I want to watch American Idol now!
Okay Buddy, I won’t drop the hammer on you this time. Consider yourself loki and tell Doug to replenish the mead.
#35 Onesimus
Thank you for the kind words. The question of the nature of sovereignty is distinctly on point today. If our Constitution is not sovereign, and if our political class insists that we are not sovereign; then the matter is open. Politics is the agreed way that a society sorts out allocation of power and resources short of a level of violence not acceptable to that society. [Politics in some societies includes making individual people disappear. That is the norm there. There may be a level of killing by the state that is beyond the pale however for the larger society.] If that agreed way, which by its nature includes an agreement on what is the sovereign authority that can be appealed to, breaks down; the default position is a pure result to applied violence. Something akin to the “state of nature” envisaged by Locke and Hobbes.
We are seeing at best confusion as to the nature of the sovereign authority [law under the Constitution] or perhaps its total breakdown. This is not something that is good, but it is also something that appears not to be avoidable.
That leaves only
Be Thou then truly Resolved …
Subotai Bahadur
Whiskey,
Don’t know about Dean, but Axelrod appears quite dirty:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aV3dLt6wmZH4
As Hugh Hewitt says,
The problem is that Axelrod’s former firm is currently receiving huge fees “from Healthy Economy Now, a coalition that includes the Washington-based Pharmaceutical Research & Manufacturers of America, known as PhRMA,” as well as AARP, the SEIU and other big players in the health care debate.
If Axelrod has been negotiating any part of any deal involving any of these players which are funneling money to the firm that owes him money, or if he is advising the president on the deals with any of these groups, that’s a conflict of interest. Laundering the money through a “coalition” doesn’t remove the conflict much less the appearance of impropriety. The coalition is in effect partially funding David Axelrod’s severance package though its members might have done so unknowingly.
“I see that traditional American character as a product of a Judeo-Christian-dominated consensus and our prosperity was the byproduct. That broad consensus no longer exists. Now society’s only common value seems to be simply our material well-being, of which healthcare is a major component.”
Karen, you need to add to this a sea change in Americans. They have gone from the need to be productive being the primary purpose of life to the need to be entertained fulfilling that role.
Nancy Kress, in her “Beggars in Spain” series of books, was prescient about this. transformation.
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NmI2NDAzMGQyNTZmNDdjMDQ0NWU2NTZkMjExZWJmMDU=
catch those last two paragraphs
luddy barsen,
Is there no peer review panel or state licensing board that can look at the doctor and pull his plug?
The difference between a Physician and a Veterinarian is that a Physician is sworn to preserve human life and a Veterinarian is sworn to relieve animal suffering. It looks like someone needs a career change but is to arrogant to admit their mistake so they want to make the rest of the world change to please them.
a fine distinction, and you nailed it, LotM –the doc is advocating the old vets to think of themselves as pets. Really astonishingly awful ethical taste –regardless of any merit in the logic, the assumption that families are so stupid and crass that they can’t face these thoughts without a fluorescent whoop-thru is –is all we need to know about the people running this legislation.
It is not going to be too easy for the DC corrupt gang to take over this country. The economy is getting worse. As a result the legal Hispanics who are not radicals want to ship back the illegals and many illegals are leaving or have left. Here in Austin the economy has gotten worse even though a number of businesses and wealthy people have moved in the area.
Also the DC gang is not united on an ideology other than getting rich and monopolizing power. The “intellectuals” in their coalition have a green religion and a leftist ideology but they are for the most part not in the inner circle. Same holds for the scribblers and talking heads in the media. They are tools and the tv heads make a good living but are mainly content to be allowed into the clubs of the powerful.
They believe in “soft power” and despise the military and police other than tax police. They act the way university administrators act by issuing memos and rules. Academics (I am one) are generally are loners not adapted to the real world so they do not know how to form coalitions to avoid or cheat the rules.
The gang wants to form a voter block of people who depend on the government but the tax revenues and the debt will not give the gang enough loot to keep the rent seekers in line. A similar game being played in the UK is coming apart. The UK will soon not be able to sell their gilts (bonds). Ireland is bankrupt and school teachers have been fired.
It is going to get uglier but I believe that we are more likely to have a type of French Revolution than a takeover by Obama and his handlers.
OT to Luddy Barson
From the Attacking in Another Direction thread
subotai, come back and say, if and when you get a hunch, wouldja?
Ivan has the ship back. She was hijacked. I was suspicious of a Finnish owned ship with an ALL Russian crew and Maltese flag. Then it turned out that the Finnish company is run by corporate officers whose names would fit better in St. Petersburg than on the ramparts of Suomenlinna. This screams SVR or perhaps Russian mafia, but I’d bet on SVR due to the reported size of the cargo. Most items smuggled by criminal organizations are much more discreet.
The hijackers are reported to be from the Baltic countries and Russia; which negates part of my original suspicions as to who, but raises others which I will with hold pending more data. Still there are reports that before the voyage, the ARCTIC SEA spent two weeks in the port of Kalingrad having bulkheads removed so that a large, concealed cargo could be loaded. I do not know if the cargo was recovered, but there is a certain curiosity what bulky secret cargo Ivan would want to covertly deliver to North Africa/the Middle East [original destination if not interrupted]. Does it glow in the dark, or deliver items that produce high energy neutrons?
#79 Jay
It is going to get uglier but I believe that we are more likely to have a type of French Revolution than a takeover by Obama and his handlers.
From your mouth to the ear of whichever Diety is turning the crank this week.
Ah! ça ira, ça ira, ça ira
les aristocrates à la lanterne!
Subotai Bahadur
Subotai Bahadur,
Thank you for what may be the drucial post. The question now is, when? I had thought 12-15 months but events are in control. I need to get in the game.
Can’t edit on the bberry.
I’m spreading this link as many places that I can. I suggest everyone do the same.
“Things are not always what they seem”
It is NOT off topic.
Papa Ray
West Texas
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