The LA Times describes a little known US military training facility where soldiers are trained to handle pack donkeys for possible use in Afghanistan. It writes:
With the U.S. shifting its focus from the deserts of Iraq to the mountains of Central Asia, this course on pack animals at the Marine Corps Mountain Warfare Training Center has become critical to the new mission.
Opened in 1951 to train troops for Korea, the center — with its administrative buildings, barracks, corrals and an enormous tent for visiting troops — is set on 47,000 acres of the Humboldt-Toiyabe National Forest, where serrated peaks above 10,000 feet are the perfect terrain to teach high-altitude combat skills.
Five donkeys, 24 mules and five sergeant trainers are stationed at the center for the course, which is given eight times a year to Marines, Army soldiers, Navy SEALs and some foreign troops.
But the Army isn’t the only service that uses animals in warfare. The US Navy has literally enlisted the denizens of the oceans under the Marine Mammal Program, in which Bottlenose Dolphins and California Sea Lions are trained to perform “tasks such as ship and harbor protection, mine detection and clearance, and equipment recovery.” There are “military dolphins”, who are reputedly able to attack sharks and presumably act as bodyguards for USN trainers against Jaws. That is, if the dolphins didn’t overrule their trainers, because according to one site, the dolphins refused to attack non-dangerous sharks.
During the 1960′s, the U.S. Navy trained Bottlenose Dolphins to incapacitate large sharks by butting their delicate gill pouches. The dolphins quickly learned to attack Sandbar, Lemon, and Nurse Sharks , but refused to approach a Bull Shark of similar size and shape. Sandbar, Lemon, and Nurse Sharks are not known to attack dolphins in the wild, but Bull Sharks are. This suggests that dolphins are able to classify sharks as either dangerous or not dangerous — an eminently practical taxonomy.
Of course, everyone has heard of the K9 corps, but not everyone may have heard of the so-called anti-tank dog used by the Soviet Army during World War 2. These dogs were conditioned to carry an anti-tank mine under tanks, and were intended for use against Nazi vehicles. A stick detonator protruded from the charge and was presumably triggered by the action of the dog running under the belly of the tank. The dogs were blown up in the process, but this was probably of little consequence to Stalin’s commanders, who treated human soldiers scarcely better and who stationed battle police behind the lines to machine-gun any unfortunate soldier who was tempted to retreat. Unfortunately the Soviet anti-tank dogs were trained using Red Army tanks and had the tendency to emplace their mines under the T-34s from force of habit instead of the German armored vehicles, which was not quite what was intended. The program was eventually abandoned, but the program remains an historical curiosity, probably revealing more about men than about dogs.
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Being a communist means you’re more important than every other living thing on the planet.
One time we carried several of the Navy sea lions (in cages) in the helos out to their training range. Not the best-smelling weapon in the Navy’s arsenal.
Why am I laughing?
During WWII the famous scientist B.F. Skinner suggested using pigeons as guidance mechanism for precision guided munitions. He taught the birds to peck at the image of battleships on a screen and be rewarded with food. The idea was that the pigeon would act as a seeker head on a bomb and peck at the image of a ship as seen through a window the same way it had pecked at ship images during conditioning. The pecking would be translated into control of the bomb. Much to Skinner’s disgust this technique was never tried out.
But other, far crazier things were. A congressman’s wife adored cats and suggested that the cat’s ability to right themselves in free fall could be used to guide bombs. The idea was that you dropped the cat from an airplane near a ship and the cat would decide the ship looked like a better landing spot that all that icky water, and through cables hooked to control surfaces would maneuver the bomb to hit the ship. They actually tried this and found that when dropped out of airplanes while attached to bombs cats do the sensible thing and faint.
Another idea was cruise missiles based on bats. The idea was that you would attach little timed incendiary devices to bats and they would fly into Japanese cities, crawl up under the eves of building to wait for night, and burn the places down. They set up a test using an old wooden ghost town in the desert and for some reason dropped the bomb-equipped bats out of an airplane instead of launching them from a submarine as originally planned. I guess there were no submarines available in the desert and the USN was none to enamored of putting them on a sub anyway. And it turns out that bats don’t fly any better than cats when you throw them out of an airplane.
During WWII pack mules had their larynxs removed to silence them in the presence of the enemy. I wonder if they still do that, or has PETA successfully found a judge to prohibit it, the idea being that it’s better to lose an entire company of men than for a mule to lose its voice.
I have a yard full of hounds. Kinda like a doorbell, but they go off if anything enters the neighborhood, rather than waiting for a presence at the door.
Why can’t helicopters be used? Or parachute drops?
Is the air so thin that helicopters can’t be used at all? Using donkeys and mules means essentially taking a whole day just to progress a few miles at a time.
Surely there’s a faster alternative. Even in thin mountain air.
Being a communist means you’re more important than every other living thing on the planet.
Except for higher ranking members of the party of course.
I suspect it’s a bit more advance than the story details.
I’ve seen vids in the past couple of years that have shown [among other things...] pack animals that were mules, but not of the usual variety. The animals I saw may have used a Welsh Cob/Burro mix; all the virtues of a mule but in a much smaller package. I took that as a sign the ‘somebody’s thinking’, and that’s a good thing.
Animal research isn’t as sexy as the newest ‘smart’ weapon or the ‘next-gen battle rifle’, but it’s still [in my mind] as important as the next digital ‘battlefield management’ widget. Maybe more so.
I’m by no means anti-tech, but simplicity is a often-neglected virtue. And in war, very few things are truly simple.
pel, Donkeys (particularly silenced ones) don’t give away your position like choppers do. Plus, if we are using an anti-terrorism scheme that keeps the troops amongst the population, speed over ground isn’t always the most inmportant thing.
What did they use as blocking units for the tankbuster dogs?
Rats have been trained to sniff out land mines. They’re pretty good at it, and are light enough that they don’t trigger the things. And their trainers become very fond of them.
On the other hand, a lot of animals and humans find them pretty tasty in the regions where they’ve been deployed. Vulnerable to swooping raptors and tempting traps. Gotta keep’em on a leash, or they end up in a stew.
The Mules of Mars Task Force
Much has been forgotten in the last 65 years.
One addition to the list of senses: seeing hearing taste touch smell
The last one is electromagnetic.
Saw a tv show this morning over breakfast. the show asked the question: why was a particular australian surfer popular with sharks. he had been attacked more frequently than other surfers.
they examined the noise he made by splashing at the surface which is attractive to sharks. they mentioned that he peed frequently in the water. sharks have a keen nose. they also mentioned that sharks have a very keen electromagnetic sense. all animals make electromagnetic noise which the shark can sense.
maybe the guy was making too much electromagnetic noise?
that can’t be helped.
so did the surfer say he wouldn’t go back in the water. nope. he loved to surf. that pure freedom ride on the wave was a joy. underwater predators are part of the deal.(I’ll bet he pees less often in the water though.)
no mo uro: they didn’t. The dogs were ‘kitted’ up and turned loose. One of my father’s friends mentioned them; they worked, at first. Then when they figured out what was up, they just started shooting any dog spotted heading towards them. I suspect the ‘back-fire’ of the dog-bomb gambit was when there were more Russian tanks present in the area than German ones [a frequent occurrence on the Eastern Front...].
Dogs are smart, but they are creatures of habit [and conditioning...]. Even the Soviets couldn’t alter that reality.
As an aside, the Soviets were VERY ‘into’ animal research, and quite good at it too; it just didn’t always work out as planned.
Such is life.
“Why can’t helicopters be used? Or parachute drops?
Is the air so thin that helicopters can’t be used at all? Using donkeys and mules means essentially taking a whole day just to progress a few miles at a time.
Surely there’s a faster alternative. Even in thin mountain air.”
There are several reasons now that ground insert (with or without donkeys or mules) is used.
The first is that if you want covert insertion, you can’t use anything that flys unless you want to insert the troops and have them walk five to ten miles carrying all of their gear. Not recommended by many.
Second is yes, there is a shortage of airborne assets in the Afgan. Not as bad as the shortage in the other collation forces, but still bad. This is not because we just don’t have the airframes, it is because for every airframe there is the detachment of maintainers and their tons of equip and more tons of parts that have to be there and those troops need security, quarters and supplies themselves. These are not in the mix right now. Maybe not even after Iraq winds down, Obama and Gates are looking for a leaner Military.
It sucks, I never did like walking, helos were a good thing.
Papa Ray
West Texas
My mother said that she had a cousin who was a gentle scholarly man with a good university degree who later became an Accountant. So the Army naturally made him a mule driver and sent him to the Solomons. Apparently the Army Regulations specified how much weight you could load on a mule, and it was less then the weight carried by the average infantryman.
What ever happened to the “Rocket Pants” concept?
>;-P
Ah, Mr. Mind, consider that the GI could occasionally on his own initiative discard or at least lay his burden down for a tick.
No one ever seems to think of asking the mule if it wants a little rest stop.
#9 – the animal research (and subsequent breeding) for working dogs is pretty fascinating.
Unfortunately, the external trends that influence dog breeding aren’t always good. For instance, in the U.S. any German Shepherds who are bred for the Westminster type shows are mostly useless for any working activity (no drive, skittish nerves, poor hips and no courage). People should NOT buy these dogs if they need protection.
German-German Shepherds (or from anywhere else in the world for that matter) tend to do better as they have to pass a working test (Schutzhund) to be registered for breeding. However, there are different varieties. Show-line style shepherds have lower working abilities, although some breeders still keep the good characteristics in their bloodlines. Working lines are the preferred choice and give police departments and military groups the best odds of performing as required. Even there, there are different varieties (Czech and East German lines, West German lines, etc.).
However, shepherds have their own health issues (some military groups do a surgical procedure on their shepherds’ stomachs to prevent bloat problems – remember, it can cost $20-40,000 to buy and train these dogs and you don’t want a health problem like that wiping out your investment). Another tactic is to interbreed them for a bit more genetic resiliancy – usually with Dutch Shepherds and Belgian Malinois.
training can take you quite a ways, but in the end, it’s about the breeding. I have a GSD from a kennel in germany (showline that is respected for turning out some good working dogs), and he doesn’t have the crazy drive needed to compete at a high level in Schutzhund or French Ring, but his character is outstanding and he gets stronger when applied with stress from “real” style situations (e.g., a stranger wearing a hidden bite sleeve) – that is all about breeding, if it isn’t there genetically, you can’t create it.
Another dog my trainer encountered was a Czech bred male. A nice suburban couple had gotten him as a pup because they thought the coloring (dark sable) was pretty… those dogs were bred to be hard, tough and dominant for military work in CZ and the couple was just unprepared for this dog. Fast forward until he was 18 months old and he quite rightly thought he was the KING of that household… something my trainer was hired to rectify.
My four footed friend sheds like a champion.
Two stories: 1) In the late ’50s I worked with a WW II veteran, who was in the Combat Engineers in Italy. Remember, back then the US was much more rural than now–this veteran was himself a farm boy. One day the men were assembled and asked did anyone know how to work with mules. Over half his unit raised their hands (they were going to use mules in the mountains and needed handlers).
2) Many years later I met a Navy vet who’d worked at the sub base at Guam, assigned to the porpoise pens. He said there were two sets of pens: one with female sentry porpoises; these were let out at regular intervals to patrol the harbor and return when called or if an intruder was detected. When they were called back routinely they were carefully counted.
The other pen held a solitary male porpoise and the handler was told to limit his interactions with this animal.
So I asked him what happened if there was an intruder or a female went missing. He said, “My orders were to let out the male.”
AWH: It depends upon whose breeding standards you are using, and what their goal is. I know of a household with four border collies. All four are out of ranch lines and not AKC lines. They are slender across the shoulders and hips and have great stamina. Two of the four are sweet and useless for herding. The male might be useful, but can’t even be tested because he has a seizure disorder triggered by stress; he is, however, hell on frisbees. The female is a very good lap dog. The other two dogs (again, out of ranch lines) are fine herders and the older dog is also an agility champion. Even out of good ranch lines, two out of four ain’t bad.
Border collies became an AKC breed thirteen years ago. An AKC-registered border collie is bred to look like an Australian shepherd with a tail. Its back is so broad you could balance a dinner plate on it — and I suspect the dog would let you eat in peace. They are beautiful dogs, but to me, they aren’t border collies. I’ve never seen one at a herding trial. So it’s all about what the breeders value.
As for the Soviets, around 1959 they began to domesticate foxes by breeding for a calm disposition. Twenty generations later they had playful, puppy-like foxes that sought out human contact. Unfortunately in the process the foxes lost their customary coloration and their coats were not marketable. But they learned a great deal about domestication of wild animals and that it takes less time than one would think. The footage is astonishing.
.
AWH…I know what you mean. Personally, I’m a terrier man myself [it's a personality thing...]. I always thought the Giant Schnauzer is a good sentry dog, though this is one breed where YOU have to be the boss; very strong, very, very smart, and VERY territorial. Or, if you want something exotic, you get it’s Russian analog, the Black Russian Terrier [another interesting Soviet breeding experiment...].
Yup, a good dog should be for ‘go’, not ‘show’, even if it’s a mutt.
Hello,
I think you have the dolphin comment reversed.
Dolphins refused to attack the dangerous sharks (dangerous to dolphins) – not the non-dangerous sharks.
“The dolphins quickly learned to attack Sandbar, Lemon, and Nurse Sharks, but refused to approach a Bull Shark of similar size and shape. Sandbar, Lemon, and Nurse Sharks are not known to attack dolphins in the wild, but Bull Sharks are.”
Back in my early teen years one morning I was sitting with our dog on my lap. I had a small wart on my knee and the dog sniffed at it and then began chewing it. Shortly thereafter the wart went away.
In more recent years they have used Labrador Retrievers – which have noses said to be the most sensitive instrument known to science – to identify skin cancers. One local exterminator supposedly has a dog that is used to sniff out termites.
I think that it is not simply a matter of the sensitivity of their senses. I think that dogs and probably other animals process information in ways that are a mystery to us and make the fastest supercomputers look like 4 function calculators in comparison. That in turn raises the question of just how they perceive the world. It must be very different than the way we do, not just better hearing and smell combined with the mind of an idiot.
In Russian legend people who live with dogs live longer because the dog sees the devil and chases him away. And the dogs live so much shorter than humans because the devil gets tired of being chased and takes the dog.
In the words of Louis Grizzard: “If dogs don’t go to heaven then I want to go where they do.”
I live about 50 miles north of the MWTC. It’s at the eastern side of the Sonora Pass and has a beautiful trout stream running through it (which is the reason I was there last week). In the winter they use it to teach kids from the flatlands how to ski. Great location, but touch country. Anyone graduating that course should be able to stand up to service in Afghanistan. F
Oh, bother: I remember the ‘fox’ experiment. One other factor [one of the more interesting ones...] was that the ‘evolved’ foxes appearances began to change: they started to appear more ‘dog-like’ with more variation in their physical appearance [a totally absent trait in their 'wild' analogs].
Again, a totally accidental discovery, but highly enlightening. I suspect similar results would arise if a long-term experiment were conducted with wolves.
Hmmmm…now that would be interesting. A ‘war dog’ breeding program using wolves as the baseline.
23. Oh, bother:
Sounds like they have some nice dogs. Border Collies are wonderful dogs – almost human with the way they think. Also, their eyes and ability to make eye contact often freaks out other dogs. 2 out of 4 is a very good percentage in even very good working litters. I’ve also read a few of the bitter battles the working Border Collie people have had against the AKC world. Of course, you know which side I’m on
Interesting stuff on the foxes – I seem to remember reading something where when that was tried their ears started to flop over like most domestic dogs (I’ll have to try to look that up).
24. CPT. Charles:
I’ve trained with a couple of nice Schnauzers and you’re right – they can be very dominant and a handful for an untrained owner
I’ve been told the males have a tendency to challenge their handlers when they get to a certain age (must be the testosterone running around).
Not every trainer knows how to work with them though as they don’t always have the prey drive that a Shepherd or Malinois has (i.e., they want to chase the tug or the sleeve). But if you work with them and let their natural territorial/defensive instincts come out they work very well.
The complaint my trainer has was that their terrier side makes them chewy on the sleeve (or on the guy in the bite suit) which can cost points in a competition. In reality, though, it doesn’t matter much with an intruder – only means they are in even more pain.. lol
Evokes memories of “Faithful Ruslan” http://www.amazon.com/FAITHFUL-RUSLAN-RN-NIKOLAEVICH-VOLOSEVICH/dp/0140052526/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1247688764&sr=1-1 A “dissident” Soviet-era novel of the late 1970s, told from the perspective of a Gulag camp guard dog.
23. Oh Bother:
I had a friend some years ago who had a number of dogs, including a border collie which used to obsessively herd the other dogs, including a couplg of German Shepherds and a Doberman. Funny as hell the watch. The other dogs were quite placid about it.
12 Rats have been trained to sniff out land mines. They’re pretty good at it, and are light enough that they don’t trigger the things. And their trainers become very fond of them.
That comment reminds me of a joke my accountant told me about the current surplus of lawyers in the Washington area. The NIH in nearby Bethesda gave permission to the medical researchers in the various institutes to use lawyers in place of lab rats for their experiments. There were three reasons for the change: 1) the NIH didn’t have to set aside space for breeding the lawyers; 2) the researchers didn’t get attached to the lawyers; and 3) there are some things a lab rat just won’t do but a lawyer will.
BTW, here is a wonderful book on the subject of USMC war dogs in Pacific in WW2.
http://www.amazon.com/Always-Faithful-Memoir-Marine-Dogs/dp/157488719X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1247691045&sr=8-1
(Written by one who was in charge of one of the units).
Animals in War has a section on ships’ cats in World War II, who served as able mousers as well as mascots. Some even switched sides, like “Unsinkable Sam,” the Bismarck‘s cat, who was rescued by HMS Cossack, then transferred to HMS Ark Royal after the Cossack was sunk, rescued again when the Ark Royal was torpedoed, and eventually retired from the Royal Navy to end his days in a home for retired sailors in Belfast. Sam lived until 1955, 14 years after he transferred from the Kriegsmarine to the Allied side.
Whiskey may wish to note that HMS Duke of York had a female ship’s cat named Whiskey, a champion rat-catcher. Whiskey was so used to the roar of guns that she slept through her ship’s final attack on the Scharnhorst.
The Americas were initially conquered with help from war dogs that had been used against the moors during the reconquista and inquisition. Special dog handlers were brought along to keep them in fighting form.
Think 200 lb dogs that were capable of killing 50-100 unarmored foes, EACH, during battles. (I kid you not!) The natives were literally defenseless and torn to shreds. A handful of trained dogs would easily rout an armed force of thousands. Captured leaders were also “dogged” as examples to the others.
There were several notorious dogs that were honored for their fighting abilities and granted special privleges and recognition.
The dogs also prevented ambushes and could flush out hidden enemies.
As a child I lived in the highlands of Papua New Guinea and like all ex-pats we kept dogs. They weren’t vicious, but they were racist animals, that could tell the difference between the nationals and the expats. Our dogs defended us and our home quite well. Mine was named Cerebus.
I see any human arm a bomb and send it via dog into certain death that human would die the same time doggy did I don’t give a rats ass whose side he’s own.
As the military might of Fortress America is reduced to third world technology, after all it’s only fair. Obama having defunded the F22 program is proposing R&D funds for catapults,pikes,punji sticks,zip guns and broadswords.
pigs can also do mine detection work:
http://www.israel21c.org/bin/en.jsp?enDisplay=view&enDispWhat=object&enZone=Technology&enDispWho=Articles^l524&enPage=BlankPage
kosherly, too.
sorry that link does not work unless you cut and past it. if that does not work then just google “israel pig mine detect”, there is quite a lot of stuff on the subject.
Looks like Barry 0351 became tired of playing with his little friends and strayed into the grown-up’s sandbox. Probably doesn’t have enough memory span to stay long, though. If only he could learn something whilst here?
Maybe they could get dinosaur DNA from a fossil, and insert it into frog’s eggs!
@ #40 49erDweet
Personally I enjoy reading Barry’s comments. You on the other hand choose to characterize him as being childish and stupid for his opposition to using dogs as essentially “suicide bombers.” Thankfully, most Americans don’t share your disgusting view. Perhaps you are a Michael Vick fan and enjoy watching pitbulls fight to the death on weekends? Or maybe your lack of empathy for the defenseless is not limited to animals. Do you also think that children make for good suicide bombers?
I’ll say this for you dweet. You picked the right “sandbox” to belittle Barry in. Don’t you just love the anonymous web? For some reason I suspect you would be a little more respectful in the sandbox of flesh and blood. Or at least you would be if you were smart.
As a puppy, my border collie used to herd the cat and her two kittens to supper. The kittens didn’t mind at all, but mama cat was extremely bothered. That didn’t stop Speckle Puppy, though.
A show called “Dogs that changed the World” explores the origin of canines, up to and including and the Russian foxes experiments discussed above.
The earliest evidence of domestication was the discovery of wolf bones in a human grave site some 13,500 years old. The
In the terrific show “Dogs that changed the world” (NatGeo), the earliest evidence of wolf domestication shows wolf bones ceremonially buried with human remains 13,500 years old.
The major premise of the show is that humans would not have progressed from hunting-gatherering to agriculture and villages, absent the herding instincts of the canine. Maintains that only canids could have got those wild goats, sheep et al down from the heights to become domesticated sources of food, milk, hides, etc.
The Russian silver fox experiment discussed above is also extensively covered, starting around 1965 with 30 breeding pairs, selected offspring over 40+ generations for a trait they identified as “tameness.”
Sorry bout the double post.
42. John.
Good grief, John, how did you get in here? Is that your best shot?