The BBC describes official reaction to a “dissident” IRA attack on a British Army base which killed two and injured several others:
Gordon Brown has condemned an attack on an army base in Northern Ireland which killed two soldiers. … Mr Brown told the BBC: “I think the whole country is shocked and outraged at the evil and cowardly attacks on soldiers serving their country …
The attack comes shortly after Sir Hugh Orde, the chief constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, requested the Special Reconnaissance Regiment’s help to gather intelligence on dissident republicans.
AdvertisementMr Robinson said the Massereene attack vindicated his decision, which had been criticised by Sinn Fein.
In 2008, dissident republicans attempted to kill PSNI officers during separate incidents in Derry City and Dungannon, Co Tyrone.
Security forces defused a 300lb (136kg) bomb in Castlewellan, Co Down, close to a barracks in February 2009.
One of the most difficult things to handle is the interplay between attempts to effect a political settlement following an insurgency and the military operations needed to make sure things don’t get going again. The tendency of those in the political track is to keep the talks going because they have a self-interest in the peace process. And that’s fair enough. But splinter groups on the other side get a vote in the outcome too. The British will have to strike back at the immediate perps. And that will have to be managed within the tension between the negotiation track and military necessity.
Although this happened in Northern Ireland, it will be familiar to those who have followed long-running insurgencies everywhere.
Open thread.
embedded by Embedded Video
YouTube Direkt
– Al-Qaeda founder launches fierce attack on Osama bin Laden –
Great! ’0′ and Madem want-a-be Goof of State have brought the Sixities roaring back, can’t wait, sit-ins are around the corner along with all the up heavel to boot! GW did it so well the idiot left thought it was a cak walk…
To what fanatical religious group do these militants belong? And how do we know that as a fact?
Everyone should get a copy of Claire Sterling’s book “The Terror Network.” Out of print but Amazon has a great used book thing.
The Brits should respond by rebranding the PSNI back to the Royal Ulster Constabulary.
Er,
No “why do they hate us”, no Jews, no Islamic nut jobs here.
Motivation? There are some people who love killing. Kill to the last innocent bystander. Kill, kill.
Donchya feel better?
No? Just kill some more.
Now THAT’s the IRA.
ADE
For #2. wildernesscalling:
Michelle does a sixties revisit in her Huey Newton Chair
Just give them back their damn 6 counties.
Seriously, this will not go completely away as long as there is a “Northern Ireland” *spit*
Eala dubh Uíbh Rathach abú!
Roland THTG @ 8: Who created the counties? Those six counties, as such, have NEVER belonged to anyone but the Crown, and the people who live in them (a majority of them, anyway) are loyal subjects of Her Royal Britannic Majesty.
On what basis should they be given away (not “back”, they’ve never belonged to Eire)? And if HRH wants to give them away, why not give them to Canada, or France?
To be British is to become Musilm, to be Irish is to stay Irish.
Kick out the bloody Brits then kick out the bloody Muslims after that go to war with each other till the true Irish emerge the victor!
“Oro Se Do bheatha bhaile”
Let the wind blow again through the Barley.
…I don’t know when, but I know what. 26+6=1 . Sooner, but more likely later, when the Muslims rule Britain, it’s going to happen. Nobody is as bloody minded as the Irish. So keep marching during the marching season and keep wearing orange if it makes ya feel better. There is a rot in Britain that She can’t get rid of. The SAS will be wearing turbins and praying to the East five times a day when you leave Ireland. But, you’ll leave.
Kick out the bloody Brits then kick out the bloody Muslims after that go to war with each other till the true Irish emerge the victor!
Given the Irish love affair with Muslims in general and Palestinians in particular going to war with Muslims is the last thing the Irish would ever do.
..And to answer your question Wretchard, yes, they’re back. Every generation, ’till the the Saxon curse is no more in Eire.
@ gokart
I shant attempt to school you in the history of the Brits in Ireland. Suffice it to say it is very long,quite bloody and brutal.
Look at a map or globe. See that island next to Great Britian? That’s Ireland, always has been, and not just what is “Beyond the Pale”.
Slainte!
“Just give them back their damn 6 counties.”
Roland THTG,
Hmmmm, I suspect you’re wallowing in “misty watercolor memories” of the way the Irish never were.
To wit:
1. If, or when, the six counties are returned to Eire, what makes you think the IRA dissidents won’t then immediately turn and initiate another insurgency to overthrow the Dublin government? After all, their ultimate goal has always been to unite Ireland under their rule.
2. Furthermore, what makes you think the Protestants won’t start their own insurgency to gain independence once and for all?
Yes, that’s all Dublin would need in the midst of a growing national and worldwide recession (current outlook: 3% contraction and 8% unemployment by the end of 2009): to merge with a “Baghdad-upon-Sea”.
Mmm. Mmm.
Memories, light the corners of my mind
Misty watercolor memories of the way we were.
Scattered pictures of the smiles we left behind
smiles we give to one another
for the way we were.
Can it be that it was all so simple then
or has time rewritten every line?
If we had the chance to do it all again
tell me would we? Could we?
Memories, may be beautiful and yet
what’s too painful to remember
we simply choose to forget
So it’s the laughter we will remember
whenever we remember
the way we were.
@Mark
I’m not saying all would be bunnies and leprechauns.
My point is, was, and will be: That as long as “Nothern Ireland” exists seperate from the rest of the land, there will be murder, bombings, and strife.
Your answer is to continue the staus quo?
In the interests of full disclosure, my Great Uncles died in the Easter Uprising, and my Great Granny likely ran guns to the IRA, back in the day.
Though born and raised in the USA, I’m Oirish Catlic! I believe “Norn-Iron” to be a boil that needs lanced.
I don’t condone murder nor terrorism, but neither do I condone the continuation of demonstrably failed exercises in futility.
Hear about Irish Alzheimer Disease?
You forget everything, except the grudges.
Though born and raised in the USA, I’m Oirish Catlic! I believe “Norn-Iron” to be a boil that needs lanced.
Irish Americans certainly talk big about Ireland. I hate to break it to you but the vast majority of Irish do not see you as their fellow Irish; you’re a Yank in their eyes.
One of the main problems with Irish Americans is that they ignore the existence of the Ulster Protestants and as a result they have a bizarre romantic Ireland V England view of the Troubles.
The Protestants have lived there longer than what most Irish Catholics and, indeed, most white and black people, have lived in America yet the ‘Brits out’ crowd are in effect saying that the Protestants should have no say on the future of the land they have lived on since long before the USA became a nation. Perhaps when the Mexican irredentists start up in ‘occupied Aztlan’ the American ‘loyalist’ majority in the south west states will find out how that feels.
I think every insurgency will see this failure of the new one world order or globalization of the economy as an opportunity to advance their agenda. As governments and countries struggle to survive, internal quarrels with racial and religious overtones will intensify.
I don’t think that human beings are wired for one world. We really live and make a difference in our families and communities. And it seems that if we try to live much beyond that in politics or big business for example, the more ruthless we become.
Most people with Irish ancestry in America are protestants. The IRA was sustained for years by money raised among the Irish Catholics in America through NORAID, and against the wishes of the Irish government.
The IRA are not in any way shape or form a Catholic organization.
They are bloody racists seeking to subjugate and expel descendants of the Scots primarily who migrated to Ireland over 500 years ago. This is analogous to the Arab war against the Jews. That is why there is such a close ideological and operational connection between the IRA and Islamic terrorism. Insofar as the IRA has any larger ideology it is Marxism.
My goodness look at this:
(warning for those who do not like her, an Atlas Shrugged link)
This is Malmo Sweden!
(there are two video embedded here. Look at both of them, if you pleaase)
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/03/raging-jew-hatred-in-malmo-sweden.html
I have been there, it is a beautiful little city (population around 250k), and I was treated wonderfully there.
To picture this, Malmo is just short train right across a bridge from Copenhagen right across the Oresund Strait that separates most of Scandinavia from the rest od Western Europe. It is so close to Denmark that people actually commute to work from there to Copenhagen.
This is exceedingly shocking to me, and I am well aware of what is going on in the EU. It is very hard for me to imagine that the average resident does not look upon this with extreme horror, BTW. They must be hiding behind bolted doors.
As economic conditions worse in the EU, this will get much much worse.
worseN in the EU^
I thought that Irish-descended Americans took off their rose-tinted glasses, used when looking at the problems of Ulster and making them see bloody-handed cowardly murderers as freedom fighters, when they got a taste in New York of what the UK has endured for decades. Evidently, I was wrong.
What to do about the IRA and its splinter groups? They claim they are fighting a war. Fine. Then the British government should agree with them and start killing people. And keep on killing people, until the cowardly butchers of the IRA stop kneecapping people and blowing up women and kids.
Oh, and kick out the murderers that Sinn Fein have managed to get into Parliament, right now. And at the very least, require the Oath of Allegiance as part of the process of becoming an MP.
Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness should not be MPs. They should be corpses.
Nice link. And there is no wonder why the Hells Angels of Sweden and Denmark are putting the hurt on the “immigrants”.
The HA will do what the “gooberment” is unwilling and unable to do.
Jim
Mongoose @21
The AP had a rather lengthy story yesterday about the anti-Israel riots outside the stadium in Malmo, where the Israelis were playing the Swedes in a Davis Cup match, without once mentioning the rioters were muslim, that Malmo is essentially a muslim city now, leaving the average reader to wonder why the peaceful Swedes were yelling Death to the Jews!
On the Irish front, a few years ago, on a tour of Ireland, our bus passed a barren field, and the guide pointed out that the field once contained a fine stand of live oak, but were cut down by the British. When asked when this happened, he replied it was done by Cromwell’s Black and Tans. Somehow it never occurred to the Irish to plant new trees, evidently preferring to keep the memory.
The soldiers who were killed were about to be sent to Afghanistan
Belfast Telegraph
Unfortunately, not all of those people are “youths”.
I do not know how to describe this, the “downtown area” is quite small. It has beautifully preserved architecture–though nothing monumental at all–some going back to medieval times, but is has the feel of say the second or third largest city in a small or mid sized American state, with a Scandinavian twist, of course. It is the epitome of a modern well run, regional Scandinavian city, with the added flavor of a slightly older connection to Western Europe than many Scandinavian Cities have.
It is like having a race riot in Duluth or Ceder Rapids, I suppose.
Just amazing. I sure hope that they do not trash the downtown, particularly the historic part of it.
Walt is not really a “muslim city” though. I have been there several times, the last time only about a ear ago. One can sit downtown in a sidewalk cafe and never see a “youth”. You can go over to the train station on the other side of town to see a lot of them. It is nothing like Amsterdam, Rotterdam or even Copenhagen.
That is not really true at all. They say around 40% “foreign born”, would I would put it as 30% Muslim, and a rough guess.
My guess is that they are getting a lot of “youths” to come up from Denmark and Holland.
This is really a pretty brief hop from the Low Country capitals–a long day trip in a lot of cases.
(However, the chanting I heard in the vid was mostly Swedish, though I thought that some of the shooting when they attacking that police van sounded Danish.)
Hmm. This brings up angles that had not been considered before. “Truces” in Anglo-Irish history have always been temporary things, from both sides.
I suspect that the Provisional IRA [which is NOT the IRA of Michael Collins' time, it is thoroughly Marxist in its orientation] has decided that Britain is too broke, too preoccupied, to expend the effort to hold on. They may well be right. However, the results may not be the Gaelic paradise envisioned by those who frequent pubs here on St. Patrick’s Day.
First, if the Provos take Northern Ireland; one has to note that the imposition of their political ideology is not going to be bloodless. Second, as noted above, the Provos are going to turn their bombs and guns on the Republic of Ireland. Keep in mind that the Provos and their offshoots have been part of the international terrorist networks for decades. It is no accident that their weaponry and explosives were Warsaw Pact before the fall of the Soviets, nor that shipments of explosives and ordnance from the Middle East were common. Expect Irish-on-Irish terror attacks in the Republic, to the detriment of all. Third, as noted above, Northern Ireland may not take to conquest quietly. The 6 Counties are about 58% Protestant and 42% Roman Catholic. Further, religion is not the only critical point in deciding where to live. There is, I more than suspect, more than a miniscule fraction of the Catholics who do not want to be governed by Dublin. If in this country people choose their residence based on state policies on social issues [abortion, divorce, welfare policies] why can it not be so in Northern Ireland. Those who wanted to live under Dublin have had plenty of time, and freedom, to move south if they so desired. Therefore, there is going to be a significant majority who are going to oppose being conquered by the Provos. That means resistance and bloodshed. All of this, regardless, is going to create an economic disaster along the lines of what Hussein Pasha is doing to us by less violent means. And the same battle to impose Marxism will occur. Except the Irish actually are more used to picking up the gun against the government than our population. Especially when poor and hungry.
Not good for the Irish people anywhere in Ireland.
Barry 0351 brought up something I had not considered. Humble Britain seems doomed to submission, either to the EU or to the Caliphate. There is not enough testosterone left in the middle and upper-classes combined to defend themselves against any threat. My money would be bet on an Islamic victory, if only because the EU also is afraid of them. The imposition of Islam on Britain would add a powerful meme to those wanting to break Northern Ireland away from Britain. That will be partially countered by the tactical alliance that exists between Jihadi and Provo terrorists. “The enemy of my enemy is my friend … for a while”.
Let us not fall into the Western cultural trap though, of believing that somewhere there is a “happy ending” that will please all. The period of time under the now violated temporary settlement has been the most peaceful and prosperous in Ireland’s recent history. If that is gone, everyone is going to suffer.
No matter who ends up in control of the 6 Counties; Republic, Provos, or the Crown, is going to have roughly half of the population feeling oppressed,with long memories, and with access to weapons. What we have here is an Anglo-Celtic variation of the problem with the Palestinians. So long as they are intermixed so [in both the Palestinian and Irish cases] the warfare will be endemic until one side or the other is wiped out.
Most of the time, there is no “good” solution, just a “least worst”. And frequently the “least worst” is unacceptably bad.
Subotai Bahadur
Then the British government should agree with them and start killing people. And keep on killing people,…..
A process that started 800 years ago and which is precisely how they came to be in the position in which they now find themselves. They screwed up when they failed to kill all of them.
Obstinacy is seldom rewarded for its own sake. A lesson I am surprised the British have yet failed to embrace.
Bahadur: The UK might be closer to mutiny than you think. I would not rule out a de facto civil war. Hard times are coming and there are only so many police. A few bloody clashes with native born Anglo-Saxons and the government, which is most fragile hanging on to power as it is, will fold. What replaces them, I cannot say.
Recently, I have become less enamored of the EUrabis notion. We might just see something else, and it will not be pretty.
The economic mess in the EU promises to be at least as bad as here, probably much worse. you can bet that there will be a bloody backlash as the elites become more and more discredited.
Interesting times….
Some people just like war, killing and violence for it’s own sake and they get attracted to groups that advocate that. Do you think that everyone wants to sit around and try to get rich by playing the same old crooked games or just breed?
Nice to see that usual fascist fatheads here, supposedly pro-life, are offering the usual violent countermeasures. Let’s poke all our eyes out!
Mongoose: Thanks for the correction. Being of Scandanavian extraction, I was dismayed when Mark Steyn in America Alone seemed to be saying that Malmo was one step from Sharia. Happy to see that is not the case.
Walt
The IRA are gangsters, yes
And murderers and thugs
But there are people who profess
They’re features and not bugs
There is no diff that I can see
‘Tween Hezbullah and them
They kill their victims differently
They differ in mayhem
But terrorists are all the same
No matter where you dwell
It’s time we got into the game
And blew them all to hell
“Eala dubh Uíbh Rathach abú”
It figures that their clan symbol is the Black Swan. If I were to say that we should have seen it coming, well I’d would be lying.
The IRA are gangsters, yes
And murderers and thugs
I think it is the ultimate fate of every antigovernment-type group to fall prey to becoming more a criminal enterprise than an ideological movement.
The neverending pursuit of money and weapons dooms them to consorting with those who are interested in making bank, rather than fighting the good fight, as it were.
“The enemy of my enemy” encompasses a huge range of options.
I find myself agreeing with Mongoose today, as I do on most days. I too do not believe in Mark Steyn’s view of an inevitable EUrabia. The common people of Europe will not willingly give up the land they’ve lived on for thousands of years to a backward, immigrant rabble. The ruling leftist elites may favor surrender, but someone on a white horse will come along to lead the common people, and it will make the Thirty Years War look like a tennis match. My only question is will the rider on that white horse by Jean D’Arc or Adolph Hitler.
@Wadeusaf
Touché!
Gee thanks walt, back at you.
@Walt,
will the rider on that white horse by Jean D’Arc or Adolph Hitler
Just to be difficult for the fun of it, your question relies on an assumption. The lady in question died very young. She may have been an inspiring liberating character who would have made the world an even better place if she had lived but we don’t know. Maybe the Burgundians sold her to the English because they feared she would turn out to be option B. Your basic point is correct. By demonizing and rejecting opposition voices that desired to operate within the Liberal pattern of western democracy, voices like Pym Fortuyn and Geert Wilders, the European governing elites have opened a door for violent mystics and true outsiders.
Lifeofthemind: Exactly, and my guess is the rider on the white horse will be a violent mystic, because it will be, at heart, a religious war. The muslims will find out, as Professor Hanson has pointed out, that Europeans are the most efficient killers the world has ever seen. This is why the Iranians must not get nukes, because when the killing starts and Paris gets vaporized, the French will not trade city for city, they will vaporize the entire middle east. There are a lot of scenarios to be played out in the next ten or twelve years, not all of them conducive to undisturbed sleep. Are the troubles back? they never went away.
@Walt,
The argument against your proposition or Professor Hansen’s is that the post war settlement and the European Project may have succeeded all to well. The purpose of European multiculturalism was not to increase brie sales in Mendocino or PBS memberships in Manhattan or even to encourage moslem migrations to the First World. Those are all by products. The purpose was to stop Europeans from killing each other and everybody else. The performance of the obese and alcohol dependent Bundeswehr in Afghanistan indicates that they may well have succeeded beyond our wildest expectations. Even the French, while ill equipped and suffering from a terrible political leadership have fought, but the German example is what will be remembered in Tehran and Moscow and Beijing. The French may act like Lawrence’s Emir Feisel, not for gold or for weapons but because it pleases them, but it will probably be to late. The persistence and revival of tribal movements, as indicated on this thread, are another result of the deconstruction of the Westphalian settlement.
News From Malmo
Sounds grim, to me.
One must remember that the ability of the IRA and other terrorist movements to operate depended on a general run of post-War prosperity. It was simply far too much bother for fat and comfortable people to go out and fight and kill.
Well, what happens when the good times stop rolling?
When the money dries up and the party is over?
Answer: back to basics. If the British people WANTED to, they could easily crush both Northern Ireland’s IRA and take back the Republic as well. Even in their debased state, they could do it.
Internal pressures, plus marvelous, technologically superior ships, led Vikings to all over Europe. To Russia and even Constantinople in the East, to the British Isles, Iceland, Greenland, France, Spain, and even SICILY (in a bizarre, three-sided struggle with Muslims and Italians). The Vikings did not engage in this because all of a sudden they were super-men. But rather that there was nothing at home, and weakness abroad.
The Provos play a dangerous game. With Brown, there will be nothing, but they might be the straw that breaks Brown’s back, and leads to another type of leader, willing to gamble on simply crushing the IRA and Ireland too, for resource extraction and bringing money in to satisfy the hungry public.
Who would stop such a man? Obama and a stirring speech? Javier Solano and a sharply worded letter of regret from the EU? The United Nations perhaps and Ban Ki Moon?
Soft power means nothing in hard times, with desperate choices creating hard, desperate men. While Britain today is soft and fat and comfortable, a sustained few years of hard times, revolution by hard times, and brutal fights for power are certain to create a hard, Cromwell type of man. Who was if I recall, not fondly remembered in the Emerald Isle.
In the short run the Provos are likely to be very successful. In the long run, likely to create a Cromwell or “Strongbow”* who will colonize the entire Island just for the resources.
*During King John’s reign, the Irish were squabbling and one King ran off with another’s wife. The Kings were really jumped up tribal chiefs. The loser invited Norman mercenary “Strongbow” in to reclaim his wife (huge loss of face) and kill the rival chieftan. Predictably, Strongbow set up shop as the “King” of Ireland and John, nicknamed “Lackland” since he had no estates of his own, saw the opportunity and either forged or had written by a complaint Pope (depending on who you ask) a Papal Bull, “Laudabiliter” that authorized John to invade Ireland and claim it as his own to suppress “pagan” practices among the Irish.
Lesson from history: 1. Disunity and factionalism invites invaders; 2. Being militarily weak pretty much invites an invasion from a superior neighbor when times are tough or the neighbor is greedy. I somehow doubt the end of history is at hand.
@Lifeofthemind: Agree with everything you say, but we are not talking about the Bundeswehr, but about the Freikorps, and not the post WWI Freikorps, but the 18th and 19th century Freikorps. When the killing starts it will not be conducted by the central governments, nor primarily by the national military, but by roving bands of Freikorps, though the national military may well eventually take part. It will not be pretty, and it will not be centrally controlled, and may not be capable of being constrained. That is how I see muslim excess and overreach playing out. When the Europeans see that their choice has come down to giving over their ancestral lands to muslim invaders or fighting, they will fight. I hope I’m wrong, I hope it doesn’t come to that, I hope it all ends peacefully, and hope the Bundeswehr never leaves its barracks. But I am not sanguine about the very near European future.
I think it should be pretty obvious that this was in retaliation to the visit to the US last week. When Gordon was announced as the PM for Northern Ireland, I think that opened up old wounds. Northern Ireland is a British colony, some don’t know that. Northern Ireland has a long history of violence, thanks to the monarchy of the UK, why should recent times be any different? They are perfect times for violence if you ask me.
i still maintain that no matter how weak the euros appear, they are the quintessential
“wolves in sheep’s clothing”.
@Whiskey: I’m not so sure the Vikings were entirely motivated by there being nothing at home. There is such a thing as a flowering of peoples as well as a flowering of individuals. How did it happen that five world class painters grew up and worked within a few miles of each other in seventeenth century Holland? Why did the Zulus rise from just another tribe to rulers of all they surveyed? (I know it was because they adopted the short sword and shield weapon system, the same system that enabled Rome to rule the world, and the Spanish to defeat the Swiss pikemen), but technology aside, someone or something had to put them on the path. And so with the Vikings. My Norwegian grandfather often said the reason the Vikings didn’t rule the world was because they thought it was a polyhedron. Be that as it may, the Vikings rose, founded Moscow and Kiev, sailed south to rescue Richard Couer de Lion from the Saracens at Acre, ravaging the coasts of France, Spain and Italy on the way, having a grand old time, stopped at Constantinople on their way home via the Russian rivers to the Baltic, and then disappeared from history. Peoples rise and peoples fall, and while there often doesn’t seem to be much reason for their rise, there is always reason for their fall. It’s possible the reason for the fall of the Vikings is somebody told them the world was a sphere, not a polyhedron.
Walt
walt: As an aside, consider this as you think about cultures flowering:
Mozart and Beethoven both personally knew Haydn. Schubert knew Beethoven well enough to visit Beethoven he was on his deathbed. Beethoven heard a 12 year old Liszt perform and chatted with him afterward. Years later,a young Brahms played his music for Liszt. Latter a much older Brahms gave support to one Richard Strauss.
About the only missing personal connection that was not there was that provincial composer J. S. Bach.
Pretty amazing that the major composers of the German classical tradition actually were personally connected in one way or another orver anaperiod of roughly 150 years.
A flowering much like the visual arts in the Renaissance, or literature in the Golden Age of Greece.
only missing-only
@Mongoose: Exactly. On a trip to Germany some years ago, in an alcohol related conversation with an English speaking Bavarian, I put the Dutch Masters conundrum to him and he responded by saying virtually the entirely of German music and literature arose in a narrow geographic band stretching from Baltic Konigsberg in the northeast to Salzburg in the Southwest. I think you find these connections eveywhere.
– A Conservative Pundit Turns 14 -
The show’s host chuckles and asks whether President Obama has called Jonathan “a little fascist.”
“The president hasn’t come after me yet,” Jonathan says chummily, “but we’ve had other people come after me!”
“Jonathan!” his mother hisses from the driver’s seat.
@ 51. Walt
Today, similar regions of flowering are present. but not confined to geographical areas. Virtual regions, such as this blog, replaced the old routes, at least for time being.
The musicians tuned their strings to the same morphic field.
You’d have to be a square to think the world a polyhedron.
@ 54. bob
No, Pythagoras was right (that is where Vikings got the idea). It really is a polyhedron, just with many polys that it looks quite… potatoid. It is not a sphere, near-sphere would be probably a somewhat more accurate description. On an energetic level, as magnetic field is concerned, the pentagonal basic structural unit is quite apparent.
Well, few musicians get the results out of the morphic field that this bunch did.
That was my point.
“Lines that are parallel meet at Infinity!”
Euclid repeatedly, heatedly, urged.
Until he died, and so reached that vicinity:
in it he found that the damned things diverged.
– Piet Hein
Twobyfour: Damn! So my grampop was right. I thought he was kidding. I hadn’t thought of how the world is now fields of virtual flowers, but now that you mention it I see you are correct. Pretty exciting thought. Thanks.
Walt — Vikings were the same peoples who were not even on the awareness of Europeans from Roman times, in the early Dark Ages, and so on.
There has been some research done into just why the Vikings went raiding. Archaelogical evidence suggests a population explosion, bad farming conditions, and poor fisheries combined with weakness led to Viking expansion.
What your point misses is how WEAK other nations/peoples were around the Vikings. Much of Scotland, Ireland, England, Northern France, and more were both within easy reach of superior Viking technology (their superb long boats, with shallow drafts allowing navigation on almost any river) while the Viking homelands were unable to be raided in return (due to the Europeans inability to create navies for punitive expeditions).
Moreover, great swaths of lands gave huge opportunities for whatever Viking chieftan could indeed conquer them, and take the taxes as his tribute. The Saxon kings were too weak to fight off the Vikings. As was Charlemagne, and the Irish and Scottish kings, and so on. It was only with the Norman invasion that Vikings were kicked out of England, the Normans being better at heavy infantry, cavalry, and of course castle building, making Viking raids troublesome for the populace but unable to breach the Norman fortresses, from with lots of men at arms could sally forth and cut more lightly armed Vikings to pieces.
The lesson of the Vikings is that making oneself vulnerable to plunder and conquering … invites plunder and conquering. The Vikings were wold-beaters for about 300 years because they had technology (long boats) no one else had and the forces they faced were pretty weak. They could not continue to hold their great empires because like the Mongols, technology caught up to them and there were too few in an age when manpower was all-encompassing.
The reason why certain people get concentrated in a few areas is usually pretty simple: a confluence of wealth, technology, and so on. Dutch Masters like those of the Italian Renaissance are easily explained by both astonishing Merchant Wealth and the desire to compete with the nobility. File that under “duh.”
And contrary, the reason for rise and fall of empires and peoples is almost ALWAYS well understood, it’s merely that the lessons are so unpleasant that people shy away from the obvious.
Greece fell because they failed to unite against Philip and Alexander, disdained their use of cavalry, and did not have enough children to create a manpower advantage. the Hellenistic kingdoms fell because they both lacked manpower, and did not adapt to the flexible advantages of the Roman legions which could get around the pike-walls and come in from the sides or behind. Carthage fell because it did not have enough unity or manpower either, and could not match Rome in massive levy after massive levy. Rome fell when it ceased having enough native soldiers and depended on foreign mercenaries who soon became their conquerers. Spain fell when it ran out of soldiers and did not compete with a global navy. And so on.
Generally: not enough people, not adapting to new technology. Most simple things are hard to understand and even harder to do.
– A.I.G. for Dummies –
(that would be me)
Now, however, A.I.G. not only has to meet collateral calls as the value of the debt it insured withers, but also has to post collateral related to the interest rate swaps.
Another troubling aspect of these deals is how long it takes to untangle them when they go awry. Back to Mr. Buffett’s recent shareholder letter: when Berkshire acquired the insurance company General Re in 1998, he wrote, General Re had 23,218 derivatives contracts that it had struck with 884 counterparties.
Mr. Buffett wanted out from under the contracts and he began unwinding them. “Though we were under no pressure and were operating in benign markets as we exited,” he said, “it took us five years and more than $400 million in losses to largely complete the task.”
So, Blert and Leo, what should be done with A.I.G.?
Whiskey: Nice rundown, and historically accurate. I would only point out that the Normans were also Vikings (Northman – Nor’man), who by 1066 spoke French, thus confusing schoolboys to this day. I would also point out that while the Vikings were run out of England, the Norse were not, according to David Hackett Fischer, as their descendants still reside in the English midlands, Norwegian towns and Saxon towns side by side, Norwegian towns generally ending in -by, as in Whitby, and Saxon towns generally ending in -ton, as in Trenton. Napoleon once dismissed history as “fiction agreed upon”. I’m not sure I go that far.
Whiskey: You are relying a bit too much on material deterministism, and only considering necessity, and ingnoring sufficiency.
There is something mysterious about these flowerings and the forms they take. They are also spiritual matters. The sweat, if you will of the aspirations, longing, and insights of a people. This is “culture” and civilization in the a most essential sense.
I think the Marxist thugs of the world, and the IRA certainly are Marxist thugs, are getting the idea that now the U.K. and the U.S. are weak. They smell blood in the water and like the sharks they are they will work up a feeding frenzy.
Never forget that the Soviet Union used its proxies to train and help arm the IRA.
Why any self respecting Viking would care whether the world is a sphere or polyhedron or whatever is beyond me. Maybe the weather changed. What caused the Sioux to be pushed into the Great Plains?
Maybe they had a high incidence of the get up and go gene I once read about. Maybe they just got bored, which could be the same thing. Maybe they were following their star.
horses?
Fletcher Christian @ #23
Just so you know: I am an Irish Catholic and I have never considered the IRA people as anything but thugs. Sort of an Irish mafia designed to aggrandize and enrich its members. Criminals, nothing more!
Mongoose: Horses is the answer to just about every historical question going back at least four thousand years. The only member of the family with the right genes, the horse grew up in central asia, in the vast grasslands stretching from Russia to China, and from Siberia to the Himalyas. The horse gave the tribes the ability to raid the next valley and take away their horses and women, in that order. Population pressure pushed these people west, to the mostly empty corner of Asia called Europe. The Celts got pushed off the continent to Wales, Scotland and Ireland by the Teutonic peoples, and the Celts have never forgotten it. Whiskey is right that technology (horses in this case) often drives the larger waves of history, but it is the tiny bubbles within those large waves, the flowerings, that have my attention. The Dutch Masters were not the result of Dutch wealth, and Mozart and Beethoven were not the result of being in proximity to some German nobleman. Horses we know about, mysteries we don’t.
Walt @ 62…
The Norse made it to Milwaukee…
which itself is not a native word… it is Norse… slightly corrupted…
Those Norse, back in the day…
Literally could WALK from Europe to Wisconsin, if the oral legend and language evidence is to be believed.
Talk about walkabout !
Since this thread has turned somewhat into a discussion of Vikings, I have a story to tell. My family has always prided itself on being in direct lineal descent from Leif Ericsson, so you may imagine our dismay when an old manuscript was discovered in an attic in an ancient house in Halfasbord, Norway. Translated from Old Norse, the manuscript tells the story of how one Gundar Hafnilsson, not Leif Ericsson, was the first European to set foot on the great land west of Greenland. Curiously enough, the account rhymed in Old Norse as well.
THE SAGA OF GUNDAR HAFNILSSON
Gundar is my name
And thunder is my game
I sail the storm-tossed seas of ice and cold
I cross the ocean wide
Beyond the great divide
Once crossed by ancient mariners of old
To lands far in the west
Where once none would have guessed
That skraelings would have danced upon the shore
We landed in a bay
And gathered round to pray
And gave our thanks to god almighty Thor
We stayed for but a while
For thanks to skraeling guile
Those skraeling arrows did us greatly harm
We struggled to resist
And greatly did insist
We came thus not to conquer but to farm
The long trip home was tough
The sea was very rough
And many seamen took it quite unwell
With dragon ships awash
With pemmican and squash
The decks became aslick with every swell
When Norway we did reach
And stumbled up the beach
The first I saw was Eric’s first son Leif
Who bade me tell him all
Of every port of call
But mostly was the land of skraelings safe
I told him sadly no
‘Twas no kind place to go
The people there rent Viking shields apart
He sadly shook his head
And very calmly said
To England then, an easier place to start
These words upon his mouth
So saying he sailed south
To the fertile fields of Devon and the Thames
While I my crew did fetch
Every single wretch
And sailed we west for new world gold and gems
I quite concealed my glee
As we put out to sea
For having put one over on old Leif
And put him off the trail
Of discovery’s holy grail
While I would write my name in history’s place
And thusly’s how it came
The future shouts my name
From heavens high with pride and awesome wonder
Though discovery’s pride of place
Still calls for some small grace
I am proud to say my rightful name is Gundar
Knowing history does declare
‘Twas Leif who first was there
Such slings hurt only those poor souls who let it
For surely we’ve all known
That history has shown
Invariably the wrong man gets the credit
Yes Gundar is my name
And thunder is my game
And though my crew and I are getting old
We still sail toward setting sun
And till the quest is won
We shall sail the sea of ice and bitter cold
Yes, we shall sail the sea of ice and bitter cold
Kennewick Man made it all the way to Kennewick, Washington, where he died with a Cascade Point in his guts, and lay peacefully for a long time, before his skull was kicked about by some drunken youths on a beach of the Columbia River, during the hydroplane races, before they thought to call the cops.
Well, my wife’s genealogy on both sides derives from Normandy, which was mostly overrun by the Danes. They all have blue and green eyes (my wife is green eyed). I tell her she has more Norse in her than Gaul. I, on the other hand, descend from Gallic ancestry from the two more Latin parts of France: parental side, from Franche-Comte near Germany and Switzerland and those of us who have done the Chasse genealogy believe our petty noble family goes back to Roman times, to the city of Besancon, the oldest Roman fort and city on the German frontier. The maternal side is from what was once known as Aquitaine and Poitou, from the city of Poitiers.
Thus, my wife is proud of her Viking heritage. I, on the other hand, am proud of the fact that my Roman ancestors may have worn the purple bordered toga.
Ooops. In my above post I meant “paternal” and not parental.
Blert: I’m not sure any Vikings walked from Europe to Wisconsin. If they got to Milwaukee I think they came by ship and got off at Ellis Island.
I’m proud my grandfather had the good sense to get off the farm outside of Malmo, cause there wasn’t anything for him there, work as a streetsweeper in Stockholm to get passage, hop a boat with some other lads, come through Ellis, then Illinois, then out west.
@Mongoose #17: As the Irishman noted:
“To forgive is Divine, and therefore not one of me perogatives!
I have Norman ancestors by the way. They received their British properties in the Comprehensive Agrarian Reform Program of 1066AD. Somewhere along the line they became armigerous. No doubt they were part of the “Auld Alliance” and signed on as condoterri in various parts of Europe. May have been with Hawkwood (Acuto) in Italy.
Their shield or shields tell of a colorful history: “Gules Crusily Or, Three Lions Rampant Argent”. “Or, Upon A Fess Sable, Between Three Escallops Azure, Six Lozenges Enjoined Argent.”
And then some of them became what Fischer described as the “recon element” into the first Tidewater Colonies.
Then there is the Anglo-Celt (Borderer) portion of the family tree. One of whom married a Parker from Fort Parker in the days of the Republic of Texas. As any Parker from Fort Parker was some kin to Cynthia Ann, I guess I can call old Quanah “cuz”.
At any rate, my war whoops and scalp hunting,
not to mention Rebel Yells, do seem to come naturally.
Fred said:
“I, on the other hand, am proud of the fact that my Roman ancestors may have worn the purple bordered toga.”
Okay, I’ll bite. Who do you think was your ancestor that wore the purple (Hopefully it was a good guy like Marcus Aurelius)?
There’s a fun calculation one can do with ancestry. The number of ancestors goes up by 2^n for n generations, i.e. 2 parents, 4 grandparents, 8 great-grandparents, etc. The world’s population has been growing geometrically for a couple centuries. By doing some simple curve fits and assuming no inbreeding one can calculate the date when everyone on Earth was an ancestor. Based upon this simple set of assumptions, it turns out that around the 1500s, everyone alive on Earth was an ancestor. Of course prior to the 19th century, most people lived in small communities and it was very common cousins to marry. I believe(?) it’s still legal in Germany to marry a first cousin (please correct me if I’m wrong about that one). My wife is 3/4 German (her ancestors came from the Hartz Mountains around Wernigerode) and her family tree is well documented back several centuries (there were cousin marriages in her family). It struck me as interesting how many of the women in that part of Germany looked like clones of my wife (they’re in-bred like white lab rats).
Maybe Fred is on to something.
“I think the Marxist thugs of the world, and the IRA certainly are Marxist thugs, are getting the idea that now the U.K. and the U.S. are weak. They smell blood in the water and like the sharks they are they will work up a feeding frenzy.” -fred
Obama is seen as not only as weak but also sympathetic to “oppressed” groups such as the Palestinian terrorists. There are links between the PLO and the IRA. Now, these terrorists are feeling their oats and are striking out – without the fear of Bush and Blair striking back.
[jpost 2002]
“LONDON – A former British explosives expert now working for the Red Cross in the Jenin refugee camp has found 200 explosive devices that are identical to those used by the IRA in Northern Ireland, according to a report in The Sunday Telegraph yesterday… Royal Engineers bomb-disposal expert Paul Collinson told the London-based paper that the devices he had found were identical in every detail to those he had encountered in Northern Ireland. He is convinced that the devices were wither supplied by the IRA or made by Palestinians under direct IRA supervision: “When I saw the bombs it was like a flashback to Northern Ireland,” he told the paper.
“The pipe bombs I found in Jenin were exact replicas of those in Northern Ireland – the size of the bomb, the way they put the nail in, the way of igniting it with a light-bulb filament, where they drilled the holes through, the use of a command wire and the means of initiating the bomb; these all the same. “They have all the hallmarks of originating from Ireland. When you put two and two together then it seems that they could well have be trained by the IRA,” Collinson said.
“Collinson also said the booby-trap bombs used in Jenin and Northern Ireland were made from the same ingredients – nitrogen-based fertilizer, diesel, and sugar – and he believes that tactics used by Palestinian in the battle for Jenin reflect those of IRA attacks on British soldiers…”
See: Jpost link
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/674913/posts
““Come on Helicopter Ben–we’ll just use a bunch of jargon and hopefully these idiots will fall asleep.”“
– The Ploy of Inaction –
Is President Obama Lazy or is Inaction a Calculated Political Move?
I cant wait for 2-3 rockets a day being shot into England, suicide bombers snipers and stabings of it’s women and children….
i want to hear from their mouths about proportional response… Stopping the occupation and dismantling road blocks…
59. whiskey:
There is some correlation (though not necessarily causation) between the viking expansion and the medieval warm. Here’s a nice graphic of the correlation.
69. Walt:
The Dutch Masters were not the result of Dutch wealth, and Mozart and Beethoven were not the result of being in proximity to some German nobleman. Horses we know about, mysteries we don’t.
imho the germans of 1750-1820 heard what the english and dutch heard circa 1570-1640.
the music of the spheres.
what if grass were greener on the other side?
They are recounted stories in my family from the 18th century of a new world so thick with fish you could walk across a river, so hearty with game–you could get supper with a shot from the front door, so rich in land that when you planted a seed–you needed to leap aside.
Something like this call to America likely still goes to places in central asia but no more to europe.
For Americans this kind of music won’t be heard for at least another 50 years or so or until the technology makes it cheap and easy to get to and live in space.
It should also be noted that the music also died. Don McLean: American Pie
Japan logs first current account deficit in 13 years, pushing Nikkei to 26-year low
#78 Eggplant,
The purple bordered toga was a symbol of a man who was a senator. And, yes, men from the provinces did get into the Roman Senate. Senators also did military service. Junior men already had done time as military tribunes. Senior men who had already served terms as governors and who had military experience were made legates in charge of a legion.
The red bordered toga was the symbol of a man from the ordo equester, which was a rank below senatorial. Most likely my ancestors were ordo equester, but one retired college professor who was part of our genealogy circle speculated, based upon the land owned in the area near Vesoul on the Saone River (vineyard country)that the holding was probably far larger in the 2nd through 5th centuries, which suggests the owner may have attained senatorial rank.
As fate would have it I’ve been reading Farley Mowat’s book “Westviking: The Ancient Norse in Greenland and North America”. It was published in 1965. He refers to the Medieval Warm period as the Little Climactic Optimum and describes the Davis Strait as having been more or less ice-free a thousand years ago. Driftwood from Siberian rivers crossed the Arctic and washed up on the western shores of Greenland.
I’m only a quarter of the way through, but just getting to the voyage of Bjarni Herjolfsson, who found his way from Iceland to Newfoundland and Labrador and finally to Greenland (his original destination) when Leif Eriksson was a teenager there.
I’m trying to make sense out of what has happened to the nation’s economy. This is how I see it. I’d like others to comment on whether or not I have a clue (I probably do not).
It appears that sub-prime mortgages and general indebtedness created an environment for the economic collapse of the financial service industry. A driving mechanism was the credit default swap (CDS) that had a magnifying effect upon an already dangerous situation. Apparently the collapse of Lehman Brothers on 15 September 2008 triggered the analog of a detonation throughout the American financial and banking industry that effectively left the entire industry insolvent. As an aside, the timing of this detonation was suspect since it dictated the outcome of the 2008 Presidential election (McCain’s hope for election effectively ended after 15 Sept 2008).
The consequences of the collapse of the American financial and banking industry was immediately obvious to both the US Federal Reserve and Treasury Dept. To prevent a panic and total economic meltdown, there was a comprehensive cover up of the scope and depth of the financial industry’s collapse. After the immediate cover up, the US Federal government’s first task was to transfer “toxic liabilities” to banks that were strong enough to hide the depth of the crisis and thus allow the US Federal government some means of slowly dissipating away the crisis before the entire economic system collapsed. The transfer of Wachovia Bank to Wells Fargo and Merrill Lynch to the Bank of America were part of that process. Presumably it was the federal government’s initial intention to directly absorb the toxic liabilities through the TARP bailout process. Unfortunately the US Federal government found the size and scope of the collapse was so large that it was impossible to fully contain it. Presumably the federal government’s own credit worthiness would fall into doubt if it ended up paying for the entire loss. At this point, the federal government began to dither, trying to devise some means of disposing of this toxic debt while maintaining secrecy about the depth of the crisis. At the same time, market forces came into play and the toxicity of the original collapse began to leak into the surrounding economic system. To make matters worse, G.W. Bush’s presidency timed out and Obama became President with an agenda to establish European style socialism in America.
Obama probably had no clue of what he was getting into when he became President. His initial response was to delay initiation of his socialist agenda while telegraphing to the American public that the financial crisis was real and not his fault. Unfortunately the signal that Obama succeeded in creating was one of barely concealed panic and the markets responded by worsening.
Another bailout was constructed but again it was no where near large enough to deal with the size of the crisis. In the meantime, Obama’s prime constituents who were clueless (or didn’t care) about the nation’s economic peril began to insist that Obama proceed with his promised socialist agenda. Obama was now in a political vise. He could no longer ignore his left wing concerning his political agenda while at the same time, he lacked the resources to deal with the snowballing economic crisis.
This brings us to “The Bezzle” that Karl Denninger likes to talk about. “The Bezzle” is the undisclosed trillions of dollars that evaporated after the 15 Sept 2008 market detonation. People like Denninger believe that Obama must fully disclose the Bezzle to the American public and then remove most toxic aspects of the Bezzle through some sort of executive order. However doing so would likely result in the immediate collapse of the American financial and banking system. It is noteworthy that the Senate just authorized loaning a 1/2 trillion dollars to the FDIC. This probably indicates that the federal government either intends to allow the major banks to go through a Chapter-11 process thus permitting an orderly removal of the Bezzle or else the federal government has concluded that continued attempts at cover up are failing and the Bezzel would eventually be revealed by market forces.
The critical question concerns whether full market capitulation could be prevented by simply allowing the financial system to go through a Chapter-11 process. Also there is the issue of American credit worthiness. If our banking system were to fail along the lines of Iceland’s banks then surely the US Dollar would collapse like the Icelandic Krona (the recent jump in the gold price seems to signal this). The collapse of the US Dollar would force China to attempt cashing in their T-bills which in turn would trigger a collapse of the American money markets. There maybe no safe way to defuse the Bezzel in a controlled fashion. Maybe the only option is to continue the cover up and allow market forces to slowly bring the Bezzel out into full view.
“About the only missing personal connection that was not there was that provincial composer J. S. Bach” – Mongoose
A most interesting point. I was amazed to read (in Imogen Holst’s biography of Bach, I think) that Mozart was an adult before he first heard of JS Bach. Travelling through Leipzig, Mozart got stuck in traffic, and noticed the sound of the choir rehearsing, led by an elderly man who had been a choir boy in Bach’s liifetime. Mozart left his carriage to listen, and afterwards asked to see all the available Bach scores,saying “now here is something from which one can really learn”.
It is hard to imagine works such as the St Matthew’s Passion lying in obscurity for decades, but when Felix Mendelsohn arranged a performance in 1829 it was believed to be the first in over 100 hundred years. Mendelsohn’s Elijah would later languish unperformed for the same length of time, until revived by De Burgos.
Al_Batross said:
“It is hard to imagine works such as the St Matthew’s Passion lying in obscurity for decades, but when Felix Mendelsohn arranged a performance in 1829 it was believed to be the first in over 100 hundred years.”
I’m a big fan of J.S. Bach. It is interesting how Baroque music completely fell out of fashion shortly after J.S. Bach’s death. I like Baroque music like Vivaldi’s and Bach’s because it has such a mathematical precision about it (it runs like a machine). Of course J.S. Bach’s music can also have tremendous passion. I once heard Bach’s Mass in B-minor played at the Cathedral in Minden, Germany (precisely the environment that the music was designed for). The music’s intensity had my hair standing on end. Anyway, I suspect that machine like precision of Bach’s music is what caused it to fall out of favor.
Eggplant (#88) the best route is to let it fail, all of it! the US will be the US the next day, I (unlike the Democrat elite) will still pay my taxes on or before April 15th But the good news is the mismanagement of all those banks and companies will be dealt with in a fair manner then the current government plan will and the Chinese will be left holding a lot of worthless paper, which will come home sooner and in a better controlled manner instead as a political/economical weapon that will do more harm when used at the Chinese choosing. Let it burn baby! Time to take the medicine! I for one do not want my children taking the lumps that this selfish, loser generation from the sixties is trying to push down the road onto them.
Eggplant,
I think you have a clue.
I have a mini-clue.
Hopefully Blert, Leo & Buddy will address your curiousity and mine. (# 60 & 61)
(curious spelling)
wildernes:
Agreed. The Trillions should have gone into tax relief instead of their buddies on Wall Street.
Obama admin filled with the very folks that got us here.
That, plus Obama’s anti-capitalist, Marxist Core, has created the perfect storm.
Buffet says so, but then repledges his allegiance to The One.
This talk of Old Masters confuses me. What do cheap cigars have to do with Mozart?
…so now my ability to spell is gone.
AlHusseineimers?
marymcl:
Bjarni Herjolfsson is kinda sorta the inspiration for my Gundar Hafnilsson. See my post #71
“I have more than enough to do, without having to worry about the financial system.”
– President Barack Hussein Obama
@Doug,
If the money had gone into tax relief, that is to say stayed in people’s pockets rather than getting cycled through Washington’s sticky fingers in the first place, it would have been better for Wall Street. Now there is no confidence in normal business processes to entice borrowing or investment. Everyone is just waiting to see how the pork will flow and who has to be bribed to get at the trough. If the government had spent less and left the people their own money then they would have either spent it or saved it. Realistically now everyone wants to save. The Democrats and the Press are bleating that saving is suddenly bad and Bush’s rebates didn’t work because people saved. At the same time they are screaming that the government has to print money and use it to buy equity in the banks because there is a shortage of capital. The ability to hold these two incompatible concepts at the same time (savings bad but banks need cash infusion) is the best evidence that the Democrats are human, idiots but human. If people had saved their money instead of sending it to Washington then most of it would have guess where? Into the banks! Some would probably get into mattresses but Congress patronizes enough prostitutes so that part of the economy probably is a wash either way. What would the banks do with all this money? Some of it would undoubtedly go to management retreats in Aruba, with Congressmen in tow, some to shiny new office furniture, and some to divorce lawyers but most of it would have to be loaned out by the banks. That after all is what banks do, it is their business. Since a cut in taxes would result in more money for the banks to lend the rate of interest would go down. That would lead to more borrowing, more investment, more economic activity, more jobs and more house sales. All without increasing the size of government. Sixty years ago Milton Frieidman proved that the big problem at the start of the Great Depression was that the government allowed the money supply to decrease. Some action by the Fed to maintain liquidity is important. Everything else the government is doing is causing more damage.
The Provos are disgusting Marxist thugs.
But as one of those Yanks of Irish Catholic descent, I would take issue with quick dismissals of Irish republicanism. The IRA, and even Sinn Fein, weren’t founded by bloodthirsty amoral Marxists. Their formations were legitimate acts of self preservation by a “sub-human” population seeking equal rights and freedom from terror. It’s fine to dismiss the current IRA and PIRA as murderers, because that’s all they have become. However, to dismiss the entire of republicanism outright does a disservice to the idea of liberty.
Too tired?
Farewell to Britain
The real views of many in Obama administration were laid bare by a State Department official involved in planning the Brown visit, who reacted with fury when questioned by The Sunday Telegraph about why the event was so low-key.
The official dismissed any notion of the special relationship, saying:
“There’s nothing special about Britain.
You’re just the same as the other 190 countries in the world.
You shouldn’t expect special treatment.”
The apparent lack of attention to detail by the Obama administration is indicative of what many believe to be Mr Obama’s determination to do too much too quickly.
Lifeof,
Agreed.
@buckets,
There is no disputing that England treated Ireland badly, brutally in fact. The fact is that the grievances of the Irish against the English fall historically between those of Jews against the Egyptians and those of the Jews against the Germans. What happened at the Boyne is important and interesting but should be determinative of nothing in regard to current events. The Irish independence movement was not originally a Catholic activity. The Nationalists of 1792 were Protestants. So for that matter were many of the leaders of the Home Rule movement such as Parnell. In fact the failure of the Church of Ireland to sink roots into the population and the subsequent revival of Catholicism among the peasantry was not a certainty until well into the 18th century. The problem on the religious side was the general enfeeblement of the Established Church after the Glorious Revolution. The present inability of the C of E to compete with Islam is a consequence of the same political settlement. Given that the Irish were benefiting from the same process of enfranchisement and economic liberalization as the Home Counties, and within the same parliament, during the 19th century the failure of British to establish a greater sense of common purpose is tragic. If only the men in Westminister had considered how the Americans had approached Federalism then a union might have been preserved. The explicitly religious nature of the divide is largely a consequence of partition and is more an expression of a conflict between the Irish and the Scots.
Eggplant at #88
That was THE finest bit of writing on a blog discussion regarding what is happening in the global financial system I have laid eyes on to date. It is clear, logical, and explains the matter well. I work in the financial services sector as an analyst, but I have absolutely nothing to do with exotic derivative instruments (and sometimes I don’t understand them – don’t want to). I follow the banking sector, by the way, as well as consumer retailing. Banks are not that difficult to understand, once you know the accounting and its logic. But very large banks will hold assets like exotic stuff that is not easy to understand. I did not follow institutions like Goldman Sachs and Lehman Bros. For the record, I was never in favor of the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act back in ’99.
Ultimately, it still comes down to the 1977 Community Reinvestment Act and the eventual (in 1995)jettisoning of any reasonable, minimal underwriting standards. Flooding the market with paper backed up by these loans was going to eventually set off a bomb. It really angers me that Dodd, Gorelick, and Frank get away with being specifically named as co-conspirators in this fraud.
AL_BAtross: That Mozart story is more incredible than that. There was not a score, just parts, as I recall, he had to put the parts on a table and hear it in his head.
Being Mozart, of course this was easy for him to do.
Yes, It was Mozart that began the reintroduction of Bach. Many of the keyboard works were published by Beethoven;s time, and Beethoven went over the major choral works with a fine tooth comb, particularly when he was writing the Missa Solemnis.
Life of the Mind – Don’t forget the Penal Laws of the nineteenth century. Catholicism was suppressed and consequently merged for better or worse with the Gaelic national identity and the folk memory of 1798. This came to America with the refugees from the famine.
The United Irishmen of the eighteenth century were an extraordinary group of men. Had they come to America instead, who knows? I’ve often wondered what a man like Wolfe Tone might have made of himself here and given to the country. His writings are hard to come by, but some of the most vivid and stirring rhetoric about liberty I’ve ever read.
I suppose the IRA still makes the pilgrimage to Bodenstown every year, but revolutionary socialism isn’t quite what the father of Irish Republicanism had in mind.
Was it for this the wild geese spread
The grey wing upon every tide;
For this that all that blood was shed,
For this Edward Fitzgerald died,
And Robert Emmet and Wolfe Tone,
All that delirium of the brave?
Romantic Ireland’s dead and gone,
It’s with O’Leary in the grave.
W.B.Yeats – “September 1913″
#100 Buckets
Since I commented on the IRA, I’d like to make sure that there is no misunderstanding or offense. The original Irish Republican Army, and its political parties were a patriotic expression of the desire for self-determination by a then-conquered Irish people. Indeed, the period from the Easter Rising to the achievement of the independence of the Republic is well worthy of study by all American patriots.
The English have historically had a problem with granting real political and social equality to supposedly equal British subjects; be they American Colonists, Scots, Irish, or Welsh. It frequently has not ended well. If their governing and social system had been flexible enough to expand as their rule had expanded [if the 13 colonies had each one representative in Parliament, we would be playing cricket and soccer today instead of baseball and football]; much unpleasantness would have been avoided.
The problem of the 6 Counties that comprise Northern Ireland is nigh on insoluble, at least in a way that does not mean that someone is oppressed and will eventually rise up. With a population that is fairly evenly divided religiously and politically, there are no easy answers. There are atrocities on both sides, and Celtic memories are long [the Protestants are largely Scots in origin]. Other than a forced diaspora, there will be a guerilla movement no matter who wins, if the Settlement breaks down. A diaspora itself carries the seeds of a violent reclamation movement. I have, and offer, no solution to a problem that is horrendous.
The original Irish Republican Army is now the Army of … the Republic of Ireland. Those who have taken up its name after Independence; under the banner of “Provisional”, “Real”, or other shifting banners are almost all tied into the worldwide terror network. I do believe that the IRA of Eire is just as hostile to the Provos as the Brits; if only because the conquest and submission to Marxism is also the Provos’ goal for Eire.
While I am an American of Chinese and German ancestry; I have more than a passing fondness for matters Gaelic, and Celtic in general. I wish the Irish Republic and its people both freedom to be themselves and prosperity.
Subotai Bahadur
– Google Earth Uncovers British Nuclear Sub Base, Missile Facility –
Fred at 104
Thank you
Fred at 86
Didn’t the emperor also wear a purple bordered toga? The emperor’s office was “Tribune Potentate”. If you examine a Roman Imperial coin with the emperor’s portrait, you’ll almost always see the abbreviation “TP” which stood for that office. I believe(?), the original office of Tribune during the Roman Republic was not part of the Senate. So strictly speaking, simply being a Tribune Potentate didn’t authorize one to senatorial priviledge. Obviously this didn’t really matter since the Emperor was actually an absolute monarch and could do as he please.
“I have more than enough to do, without having to worry about the financial system.”
—
Given that Infanticide is approved by The Messiah,
Some Infants are indeed more equal than others.
Eggplant,
I should have been more specific about the use of the title “tribune.” There were two kinds: military tribunes and tribunes of the plebs. Very young men from patrician and sometimes equestrian families had their first military assignment as military tribunes, which were essentially staff officers and cadets. The had no real authority in the cohorts and legions. The men with the real power were the legates and then the centurians and cohort commanders (who were senior centurians). In the Roman legions a man could begin as a raw enlisted recruit and through merit and survival rise up the ranks and become a cohort commander. If he acquired some property he could apply to be put on the rolls of the ordo equester, and his sons could get an education. In the military a son of an equestrian could become an auxillary commander or the commander of cavalry alae. And it was not unheard of for someone in the equestrian class to jump into the patrician order and join the senate.
While definitely not as fluid as our meritocracy is (or should be), in the Roman world there was more opportunity for free men to rise up in the ranks than in any other society before, during, and even after the fall of the Empire.
Fred,
Here’s a book that I think you would enjoy:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Roman-Republican-Moneyers-Their-Coins/dp/0713476729
Judging from the cover it looks like a specialist book that would be of interest only to coin collectors but actually it has some very interesting commentary about the Roman Republic. This book shows an amazing level of detail about the Roman Republic based upon cross referencing different Roman literary sources and from the study of ancient coins. I’ll provide an example but I need to do it in another post to escape automatic moderation.
#107 Subotai and others -
I am English and therefore might be considered to be biased. However, at a stretch I might consider the IRA of the 1920s to be a legitimate group of freedom fighters similar to those of the early American colonies. For one thing, their preferred targets were British soldiers.
The IRA (and Provos) of the late 60s and after are something quite different. They delight in killing non-combatants (and indeed spread misinformation designed to increase casualties among such) and are no more than murderous thugs using the “struggle” as an excuse. They deserve no more than a bullet in the back of the head. And that’s too good for them; an old-fashioned hanging (without the long drop) would be more appropriate.
Catholics across the State of Connecticut mobilize to fight the irrational, unlawful, and bigoted Proposed Bill #1098/2009
The Judiciary Committee of the Connecticut General Assembly is considering outrageous legislation designed specifically to target Catholic parishes with the bogus aim of “restructuring” them for the public good.
Senate Bill 1098 is a frontal assault on the autonomy of the Roman Catholic Church in Connecticut.
Fred (continued):
Here’s the link showing a coin similar to a Roman Republic denarius that I own:
http://www.coins2.com/imgsearch/roman/24/ec4954d964824d6470e5eb71f60f3223/Roman-Republic-L-Scribonius-Libo-c-62-B-C-.html
The coin was struck under the authority of L. Scribonius Libo. The object shown on the coin’s reverse is a “puteal” or well head that was in the Roman forum. This was a religous object of relatively minor significance. What is not widely know even by classical scholars was the puteal was where Romans went to pay off their debts to loan sharks. In his book, Michael Harlan does a wonderful job of describing this coin and the significance of its message. Apparently when this coin was struck, Rome was in the middle of a major financial crisis (sounds familiar) where most of the city was in debt up to its eyeballs to a few money lenders. The puteal had become a hated symbol for money lending. L. Scribonius Libo was making a political statement when he had this coin struck and was bringing up the point of debt relief. As I’m sure you know, debt relief and land reform were the big issues that jump started the Gracchi brothers’ political career (they were proto-socialists). The Gracchi brothers set into motion that whole reaction/counter-reaction political process that ultimately resulted in Sulla pulling down the Roman Republic.
Subotai and others,
I wasn’t trying to make waves, I just wanted to chip in with my 2 cents. I can’t help it, I’m a misty-eyed Yank who still considers himself a bit Irish, strong feelings on the matter, etc.
It’s terrible to witness a great movement like the United Irishmen / IRA degenerate into something like the PIRA. These modern “troubles” are a stain upon, and a discredit to, the Irish liberty movement.
Cheers
#113 Fletcher Christian
No problem. We actually seem to be in agreement. Especially if the hangings involved are navy style. Not only for PIRA terrorists and their ilk, but also for the Muslim variety. For the latter, the choice of an organic lipid to lubricate the noose/knot should be left to the court.
Subotai Bahadur
Eggplant, your long post about the credit and banking crisis is something I am going to go back to a lot, picking up aspects of it and trying to understand more the nature and function of the derivatives you mentioned, like the credit default swap. Never learned about that in grad business school. Must be a new thing, relatively speaking.
What most worries me, more than anything else, about the health and ongoing viability of our system: the increasing phenomenon of a lack of transparency in transactions and institutions making huge transactions. This adds uncertainty to market psychology right now. I do analysis of companies and industries. I hate lack of transparency because it adds risk. Also, lack of transparency makes me think people are hiding something – something that could blow up in my face.
Interesting stuff about the coin. I would imagine that during the 2nd through 5th centuries A.D. there must have been some financial stress going on in the Roman world, eh?
@buckets,
Has anyone investigated to see if there were any contacts between the ruling Irish of 1944-49 (who were the surviving IRA of 1916-21) and the Haganah who fought a similar fight in what is now Israel? The Dublin government was neutral but sympathetic to Germany. Still I would think that there were parallels that could have been drawn.
Someone, it might have been John Hume or David Trimble but I won’t swear to it, said to me after a campus talk to pump up support for the Good Friday Agreement that crime was low in Ulster because all the usual psychopaths who would be robbing banks and killing old people were organized into the IRA or the UDF. They still kill but in a more controlled manner so it is paradoxically safer.
Beginning in the 1960′s the IRA was receiving assistance and training from the Soviets through their proxies. This is not surprising, since we now know that the Soviet leadership had consciously decided that at this point in the Cold War the best way to wage war against the West would be to arm and train all of the various “liberation” movements across the globe. They like to brag that the world was coming their way during that heady period of the expansion of Communist ideas.
I am not unsympathetic to the early Republican sentiments and ideas of the rebellion against Britain in Ireland. My father’s mother is from Cork and was a girl at the turn of the century when this fight was coming to a head. I’ve read about it, and I think I understand a fair amount of it.
But once the IRA went over to the sphere of Soviet influence, they became more nihilistic in their violence. That’s when they lost my sympathy.
Some good comments.
Just for the record the Protestants who led early Irish nationalists were mostly Anglo-Irish and Church of Ireland (basically Episcopalian) not Ulster Scots (Scots-Irish if you prefer) Presbyterians. The former were, again generalising, mostly upper class and quite liberal and cosmopolitan compared to the rest of the Irish both Protestant and Catholic. (The Ulster Scots were active in the ‘pro-liberty’ movements in the late 19th century and supported the rebelling American colonists unlike most Anglo-Irish and the Irish Catholic Church, which supported the Crown.
However, when the Rising became about religion and blood – see the Scullabogue barn massacre – not ideas, virtually all Protestants, including the Anglo-Irish, turned against Irish nationalism.
In the late 19th and early 20th centuries the liberal sophisticated Anglo-Irish elites again took up various forms of Irish nationalism, which they were sure, this time, would be non-sectarian thus allowing their families to remain, if not in charge, then still part of Ireland’s elite.
Nearly a century after partition those Anglo-Irish, who seriously thought nothing would change for them after Irish independence, don’t exist as a distinct people anymore. Most eventually left Ireland or disappeared into the Irish mainstream. But the Ulster Scots, whom the Anglo-Irish usually dismissed as unsophisticated and too stubbornly resistant to change, still exist.
coisty,
Well said. The little that most Americans know of these matters comes from The Quiet Man, where the Anglo-Irish were represented by the barren widow Tillane and the Church of Ireland was represented by the flock-less Rev. Dr. Cyril ‘Snuffy’ Playfair.
More violence. A Northern Ireland police officer was shot dead tonight.
In my 7.47 post I said Ulster Scots were involved in nationalist ‘movements in the late 19th century’. That should be the late 18th century.
Sounds like things are getting out of control up there in Ulster. So much for Gerry Adams and all his bullshit back in the Nineties.
fred:
I know almost nothing about the credit and banking crisis. I wrote my long post in the hope that someone would correct my errors and misconceptions (so far no luck).
Fred said:
“Interesting stuff about the coin. I would imagine that during the 2nd through 5th centuries A.D. there must have been some financial stress going on in the Roman world, eh?”
The quality of Roman Imperial coinage went to pot after Gordian the Third (he died on 29 July 238). IMHO, the best Roman coins were struck under Caligula and Nero. The style of the latter imperial coins became progressively more nasty along with the quality of the silver. Near the end they’d strike bronze coins and then dip them in silver. We (the Americans) did the same thing in 1964 when we abandoned silver and went to nickel-copper clad coins and fiat paper money. The ultimate cheek was when we abandoned copper in the penny and went to copper plated zinc (not even the Romans stooped so low).
Years ago, I was told by a classical scholar that the Romans might have used paper script as an informal currency (vouchers?). However I’ve seen nothing in the literature to support that.
well, if anyone’s still here -
@116 buckets – No worries there. It’s a fascinating subject, none the less so for being one of the world’s more intractable problems. Ulster the bleeding ulcer, I call it. My paternal grandfather came from Tyrone, converted to Protestantism in the US and then inexplicably married an Italian Catholic. Point is, I grew up hearing about Irish history all the time. And while it’s easy to compare prior incarnations of the IRA favorably against the Marxist terrorists of the present day, in fact the movement in the twenties was as riddled with factionalism and betrayal as any other period in Ireland’s history. My father and uncles would argue the night away about whether Michael Collins was a man ahead of his time or just another thug who died by the gun. (They all despised DeValera, too!)
There are lots of ways to look at and analyze Irish history, but whatever anyone says, I really think it all comes down to tribal and family loyalties, more than ideas. Better the devil you know, as they say in the old country. That may sound flippant, but it’s not meant to be. In an Irish family, the past is always close behind.
@119 Lifeofthemind – I’ve never heard anything about a Haganah connection and I find the idea unlikely. Most of the old time IRA (the forties men, as they were called) were pretty xenophobic and if they thought about Jews at all, they tended to be frankly anti-Semitic. I’ve known a lot of Irish people, including some northern Republicans, and sad to say nearly all of them have been pro-Palestinian. A shocking number of the northerners have voiced their disappointment that IRA overtures to Germany in WWII were not reciprocated (!?!)- I don’t know what that’s all about but you can draw your own conclusions.
fred – Of course Obama has emboldened them. I doubt it was mere coincidence that the IRA went on cease-fire within a day or two of the 9/11 attacks, and somehow I’m not surprised that they’re starting to kick it up again now.
Walt – I hope you’re archiving this stuff. BTW as long as we’re comparing illustrious ancestors, my paternal line claims descent from Niall of the Nine Hostages (as does half the population of northwest Ireland, but why quibble?)
Not sure whether this has been pointed out through 127 comments, but “dissident” IRA = CIRA (Continuity IRA), RIRA (Real IRA) or some other letter fringe republican hardliners stick in front of “IRA.” They have little support. I do not think there will be a reversion back to anthing like the bad old days. Think it was CIRA who have claimed to have carried out the attacks. The modern IRA with political wing Sinn Fein (i.e. group that evolved from late ’60) is now part of the political process…. In many respects modern IRA was the same as Sinn Fein and visa versa…. Gerry Adams & Martin McGuiness were the political face….. Sinn Féin’s chief negotiator in Belfast Agreement was Martin McGuiness….. If it was alright by Marty, it was alright by the IRA….http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_McGuinness
Walt @75…
The legend describes Norsemen coming down out of the Arctic.
I can’t find my old web link.
But, the jist of the legend would make you think of the plot to “The 49th Parallel,” the Canadian propaganda film. In the film, a U-boat crew is stranded on the shore of Hudson Bay and has no choice but to march south so as to get below the 49th parallel.
Such a scenario would neatly fit with an explorer team getting way up in the Arctic and then driven by a twist in the weather to head south into the bay. Perhaps they were hunting polar bears.
What seems to be clear is that a whole string of place names around Milwaukee have Old Norse word elements.
The legend also described the Norse as being accepted into the tribe and marrying.
Here’s a link that has some more on it, FWIW:
http://2164th.blogspot.com/2007/03/vikings-and-algonquins-first-american.html
blert, check out great flic with inferences toward all that: “13th Warrior” (add a ‘the’ if needed). Awhile ago, wretchard posted on the film –an excellent thread ensued –gotta be somewhere retrievable.
#127 marymcl
Much of the government of the Republic was pro-German during WW II, and their official neutrality was a cover for wanting the British to lose in hopes perhaps of regaining the 6 Counties. I remember the first time I saw pictures of not only the Irish Army but also the Garda in the late 1930′s and early into the war in battle dress. They were wearing German style Stahlhelm‘s and carrying Mauser 98′s. I admit to being quite surprised. Such sympathy, along with the contemporary Catholic attitudes, probably precluded any aid to the newborn Israel. Even after relations between the two countries, it took almost half a century before an Israeli embassy was opened in Dublin.
#128 NinefiftyNine
Granted that the [insert variant here]IRA may not have popular support in Northern Ireland; but you have to remember that the Provos are not interested in or committed to only what we would consider normal political means. Terrorist and Marxist organizations are more than willing to operate against us both politically and militarily.
The question that needs to be answered [and we do not have the data points to reach a conclusion yet] is whether the attacks are in fact a Provo “false flag” operation. We do have a documented history of Marxist and terrorist organizations doing so on a regular and ongoing basis; which should raise our index of suspicion. But there is no publicly released data to confirm.
From our point of view, in a sane American foreign policy; we would first normally be concerned about the prospect of an ally being subjected to terrorist attacks in what it considers its home territory [I know that there are quite a few who do not consider the 6 Counties to be such] and its manifold effect on American interests. The current occupants of the White House are more probably enthralled by the “Change and Hope” involved in the tactical and strategic acumen of the Provos, and are hoping it is in fact a double game. They will [possibly] consider any unpleasant sequalae for this country only after they all [minus Hussein Pasha] have a post-event cigarette and bask in the afterglow.
Subotai Bahadur
Subotai Bahadur @132 ~ Yes, sad but true. It’s funny, Fine Gael will always have the Blueshirts hanging around its neck, but as I recall around our kitchen table Fianna Fail was known as the green fascisti.
Regarding your other point about Ireland wanting Britain to lose in WWII, this is from the last page of Cecil Woodham-Smith’s history of the famine “The Great Hunger” –
“…Along the west coast of Ireland, in Mayo especially, on remote Clare Island, and in the dunes above the Six Mile Strand are a number of graves of petty officers and able seamen of the British Navy and Merchant Service, representatives of many hundreds who were drowned off the coast of Ireland, because the Irish harbours were not open to British ships…”
buddy and blert – The 13th Warrior is a terrific movie, though its plot is more a deconstruction of Beowulf than anything else. The link was interesting but I think they’re running fast and loose with the linguistic claims. Algonquin isn’t one language, it’s a family of languages, and a pretty big one, too. I can’t help noticing they don’t have a linguist on board. The pictures were more convincing, as far as the theory goes, but don’t you think Vikings would have stayed with their ships and come up the St. Lawrence, rather than hoof it clear across Quebec?
I meant to correct the sentence “Regarding your other point about Ireland wanting Britain to lose in WWII…” to read instead -”Regarding your other point about the Irish government wanting Britain to lose in WWII…”
Many Irishmen volunteered and served in the Allied cause.
134. marymcl
On the other hand down here in Oz, a friend of mine, Peter Rocke,recalls that his Irish family refused to speak to one of his uncles for several decades after WWI because he had volunteered to fight in “The Pom’s War”.:)
As for the Provos or whoever has done those recent killings in Ulster, it was not that long ago that the official IRA took care of its own dissidents when they did not toe the line.
They are honor bound to do so this time too if they are serious about the agreements they signed.
If I recall correctly several Marxists IRA types were knee-capped.
My own sardonic sense of humour makes me think that right hand left foot amputation might be singularly effective with those mongrels if the IRA takes care of them.:)
#136 Bob Murphy
“My own sardonic sense of humour makes me think that right hand left foot amputation might be singularly effective with those mongrels if the IRA takes care of them.:)”
Moving from serious geopolitics to a lighter thought, I am reminded of this Gaelic blessing; which hangs in our kitchen:
May those who love us, love us.
And those who don’t love us, may God turn their hearts.
And if He doesn’t turn their hearts, may he turn their ankles.
So we will know them by their limping.
Mind you, if such were to come to pass the assembly of our Congress and the Administration at the Capitol for the State of the Union Address would look like an ambulatory game of whack-a-mole.
Subotai Bahadur
although many of your comments are true and i see your points of view i feel that as a catholic girl that was raised in portadown where the troubles frequently hit the garvaghy rd i need to give my opinion. as much as i would not like to see the troubles back and obviously i do not condone killing innocnt people but i do not feel it is right to brand these people as bloodthirsty murderers! that is not what this is aout the ira do not sit down and say hey who will we kill next! its about fighting for their country and the people that they took from us! yes the ira killed many innocent people but we are a country that suffered what about the times when you couldnt let children out for fear of being killed because they were catholics? what about robert hamill who was one of many murders that the so called ruc helped cover up? what about anthony duffy who was lured to a party by protestant girls and brutally murdered in a room with music blasting so that nobody could hear his torture? what about all the catholics who couldnt get housing or jobs or where barely even allowed to go from one street to another? what about bloody suynday where the soldiers openly fired without reason and killed innocent catholics? what about the abuse soldiers fired at us jus for coming out of your house? what about the birmingham six being held for something they did not committ? as far as the rira are concerned they are freedom fighters and although they do not have the support of the people of northern ireland that will not stop them they will carry on fighting for their country and as an army leader once said “if we had the brains of the ira we would have some army”. the rira have a right to fight for their people they have been sold out by sinn fein and they are fighting back!!!1