The Strategy Page describes what really fuels the Jihad: it isn’t religion, it isn’t belief, it’s money. The Taliban in Pakistan (TTP, or Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan) has an economy based on crime. There isn’t all much of a difference between the Taliban and bank robbers, except maybe bank robbers are nicer. What is the Taliban into? Rackets.
The TTP have long been involved in criminal enterprises (smuggling, extortion and other crimes not explicitly condemned by the Koran). Tracking down these funds has always been difficult, because criminals have to be good at hiding their cash … The ISI knows how to hide money, and passed a lot of that knowledge onto the Taliban.
Because TTP groups have long been involved in criminal activities, they have developed ties with major gangsters in the region. These guys want to maintain some contacts with the Islamic radicals, just in case, and help out by sharing their smuggling and money laundering contacts in the Persian Gulf. So for the government to really hurt the TTP financially, they will have to go after the criminal infrastructure the Taliban is allied with. That won’t happen, because the widespread corruption in Pakistan includes a lot of connections, and cooperation, between government officials and major gangsters.
Crooked politics and terrorism have long clothed themselves in sanctimony. In fact, a cynic might argue that a good rule of thumb for judging movements is to conclude that the more high minded a cause pretends to be, the more sordid are its actual motives. The FARC, for example, presents itself as the champion of the poor and downtrodden in Latin America. But it’s principal business is drugs. Yet the FARC is simply the norm. All kinds of creepy movements and dictators style themselves in the most magniloquent manner. The Times Online recently compiled a list of the 10 most decadent dictators in recent history; vicious men who literally wallowed in wealth and luxury often while their populations starved.
In number 1 spot is Kim Jong Il, the “Dear Leader” of destitute North Korea. This plug-ugly has “super-expensive tastes, with 17 palaces, and collections of hundreds of cars and around 20,000 video tapes. On one state visit to Russia, he reportedly had live lobsters airlifted daily to his armoured private train. He is believed to spend around $650,000 a year on Hennessy VSOP cognac and maintains an entourage of young lovelies known as the ‘Pleasure Brigade’” This of course doesn’t keep him from being the role model of Jose Maria Sison, Chairman of the Communist Party of the Philippines, who himself lives in comfort in the hated West. Sison wrote this fulsome birthday greeting to the Dear Leader, beginning with this disgusting paragraph.
The Communist Party of the Philippines extends its warmest greetings to Comrade Kim Jong Il, General Secretary of the Workers’ Party of Korea, chairman of the National Defense Commission of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea and respected leader of the Korean people on his birthday on 16 February.
The toadying goes downhill from there. Of course Sison pretended to be outraged at Ferdinand Marcos, who occupies number 2 spot in the Times Online rogue’s gallery of decadent leaders. “Pretended” is the operative word for revolutionary con-artists whose real motive in storming castles isn’t to topple the throne but to occupy it themselves. The decadence of the previous occupants only inspires them to greater heights of megalomania. The rest of the Times list is given below. One common characteristic of these frauds is their penchant for bombastic titles, grandiose settings and fantastic heraldry.
- Nicolae Ceausescu, President of Romania, 1967 – 1989. The “Geniul din Carpati”, or Genius of the Carpathians.
- Saparmurat Niyazov, President of Turkmenistan, 1990 – 2006. The President for Life and “Turkmenbashi”, or Father of all Turkmen.
- Idi Amin, President of Uganda, 1971 – 1979. The self styled “Lord of All the Beasts of the Earth and Fishes of the Sea”, “Emperor of Uganda” and “King of Scotland” awarded himself the VC, or Victorious Cross, and CBE, or Conqueror of the British Empire.
- Joseph Stalin, Leader of the Soviet Union, 1922 – 1953. The “Gardener of Human Happiness” and “Brilliant Genius of Humanity”.
- Mohammed Reza Pahlavi, Shah of Persia, 1941 – 1979. The “King of Kings” and “Sun of the Aryans” .
- Saddam Hussein, President of Iraq, 1989 – 2003. The Baathist leader with a fondness for gold-plated bathroom fittings, and Kalashnikovs, who rebuilt Babylon with bricks, each stamped with his own name. This was before he was promoted to “Minuteman” by the Left.
- Mobutu Sese Soku, President of Zaire, 1965 – 1997. Siphoning his country’s wealth into Swiss bank accounts, he styled himself the “All-Powerful Warrior”.
- Suharto, President of Indonesia, 1967 – 1998. The former bank clerk embezzled more money than any other leader in history, according to Transparency International. Hailed in the postwar years as a “nationalist leader”, he memorably said of the Japanese Empire while preparing to collaborate with them: “The Lord be praised, God showed me the way; in that valley of the Ngarai I said: Yes, Independent Indonesia can only be achieved with Dai Nippon…For the first time in all my life, I saw myself in the mirror of Asia.”
One of the reasons why community organizing guru Saul Alinsky was so obsessed with direct accountability is that he didn’t trust leaders. His goal was to empower the small man and direct their efforts towards tangible goals. The process might be slower than entrusting the future to a charismatic leader; but Alinksky wasn’t into the vision thing because he knew how easily a vision could become a nightmare.
Today we live in a world where the Filipinos who died in the Bataan Death March can be be dismissed as colonial “dupes” while the memory of Indonesian “nationalists”, Korean “Dear Leaders” and Soviet “Uncle Joes” can be artfully preserved and their crimes very carefully excused. And why? Because as the first paragraph showed, there’s money in bilking useful fools. Always has been, always will be.
Tip Jar.
Different Folks no doubt have different opinions of Syngman Rhee:
Koreatown restaurant salutes Syngman Rhee Favorite dishes of South Korea’s first president and comfort food are on the menu at E-Hwa Jang. Video
Man arrived in LA w/$50!
Funny little juxtaposition there Wretchard:
Because as the first paragraph showed, there’s money in bilking useful fools. Always has been, always will be.
Tip Jar.
But all kidding aside, the dictators with their opulent lifestyles are having what they deem to be the last laugh, because they don’t acknowledge the possibility of any kind of judgment for their actions in the hereafter. The goal of a materialist is simply to enjoy the most pleasure now in this life, because they figure when they’re dead they won’t even know they are dead, and their victims are on their own. But my opinion falls closer in line with C.S. Lewis in God in the Dock when God is cross-examined about the fate of those victims and promises to make it up to them, something along the lines of the reversal of fortunes of Dives and Lazarus described by Jesus in the gospel of Luke.
Anyone who lives off a tip jar is never going to make the list of the 10 most decadent dictators in the world.
But part of what motivated this post was a project I’m currently helping out in. It is to tell the story of the community organizers who helped turned the tide against Marcos while holding off the Communist Party with their other hand. They never made any money out of it; and will probably never get any fame. Of course, they never did it for the money or fame anyway.
I remembered the “Band of Brothers” book; one of the most fascinating things about the Steven Ambrose book is that it is about a bunch of ordinary guys who did extraordinary things and gained nothing but the memory. They went on to become cab drivers, farmers, drunks, prosecutors and whatever else. Were it not for Ambrose, they would probably have remained unknown. The deeds were by the men of the 101st Abn. But we owe the TV miniseries and book to an author. Virtue rarely authors its own autobiography.
If I were to give financial advice to somebody who was planning on living dangerously, it would be that the hero business paid very poorly. Barack Obama understood that immediately when he was a community organizer in Chicago. That’s why he shifted to Harvard Law School. If had stayed on in community organizing it would be very unlikely that he could buy the mansion he now lives in. Of course, it doesn’t follow that anyone who becomes a lawyer winds up being a bad guy and there’s nothing wrong with getting rich. But while it seems fairly straightforward to get rich building a better mousetrap, I’m beginning to wonder if it’s ever easy to get rich being a professional do-gooder. Possibly. But it’s far easier, I think, to get rich by pretending to be a professional do-gooder. There are saints in the world, but they are few. Much more common are those who put on saintly airs for the sake of worldly bank accounts.
On several occasions I’ve mentioned that, while visiting Mindanao, I was struck by how little the average “Muslim rebel” was motivated by the Koran. Currency was always much the preferred reading matter. Nor can I forget how someone I knew was horribly killed by “revolutionaries” probably to protect the exposure of their drug business. And yet time and again these people would be interviewed by the media. They would describe themselves as revolutionaries or holy men and spout the most apalling nonsense. You felt like turning to someone and shouting, “it’s lies! All lies!” But no one would believe you if you did.
I have written in several posts that once, while talking to a high-ranking cadre of the Communist Party, I offered a proof of the existence of God. Curious, the party leader offered to listen. My proof went like this. “If I can prove the Devil exists, then God must exist, otherwise the world would already be ruled by the Devil.” He nodded in assent. “But the Devil exists because Hell necessarily exists to put people like you in it.” He was not amused.
Bank robbers won’t behead you for shaving your beard and listening to music.
W: On several occasions I’ve mentioned that, while visiting Mindanao, I was struck by how little the average “Muslim rebel” was motivated by the Koran
It’s all about pesonality. I visited Mindanao for about two weeks last year, and I saw exactly one Muslim. He had a little washcloth on his head and was walking through the Gaisano Mall in Butuan. There’s a nasty little road with weeds growing in it connecting that place with the southern part of Mindanao where they have a higher concentration of Muslims. Everywhere there is such grinding poverty, of course, that ideology takes a back seat. The recent rice crisis means people are being taken out of productive work merely to stand in a queue to get the government-subsidised PHP18.25/kg rice. You don’t become a first world nation by having your workforce stand in line all day.
There’s a story being reported by WorldNetDaily about “Muslim immigrants ‘victimized’ by CAIR”. The allegation is that CAIR officials in America accepted money (i.e., bribes) to “speed up” the immigration process for Muslims/Arabs, and then failed to produce.
I suppose it’s understandable that if you come from a culture where everything is for sale for the right bribe, and there is no accountability at any level, you might assume the same things might pertain in America, once you landed here, too. Despite the fact that American soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan, at least, have been telling them and telling them and telling them for five years now that we don’t do bribes … at least not very much and certainly not out where you can see it.
So what these transactions must mean, then, is that CAIR officials in America are just as much terrorists and motivated by greed as Saddam, the Taliban, and the whole rest of the list that Wretchard listed above. I wonder when that whole CAIR-bunch will find their skanky asses indicted and behind bars where they can then try to bribe their way out of the American judicial system.
And who will the mainstream media find to quote when they’re looking for the famous missing moderate Muslim.
Ultimately, it is the personal goal and professional goal of the “organizer” that makes the difference. For someone like General Petraeus, while I do not at all agree with the application of the moniker of community organizer to the CI mission of our troops, it is the practical ordinary and everyday stuff that makes the biggest difference to a community.
For Alinski types, and anyone slaving for grant moneys, it is the ability to sell the granting agency on the value to be realized in granting moneys. The difference between what a Commanders funds do and what grants accomplish is the ability to measure in real dollar and in real security terms what the a Commanders funds can achieve. Accountability is not necessarily a feature of Grant applications.
There was a real, life changing urgency to what those folks did in opposition to Marcos and opposing the Communists that is not present in Chicago, or in New York (at least since Mayor Dinkins stepped down). If there was a list of top “Community Organizers” put together, the US Military would not be on the list but Yassir Arafat could be listed at the top.
Flips just don’t like to work!
My wife knows a Filipino lady here who @72 just gave up her second job, so now she’s down to one.
Not too many years ago, she had 3!
there are a lot of people who want to be fooled and will attack anyone that tries to show them reality. the Matrix movie covered this phenomina. virtually every leftist corpuscle is like this. of course those with a top place at the trough are realistic, but the losers making up the bulk of the movement are desperate to maintain the fantasy.
Teresita, you also don’t get to be a first world nation by having your workforce run around the streets committing arson, burning US flags while chanting “Death to America!” and hacking the heads off schoolgirls, either.
Mindanao is mostly Muslim, and dirt poor? Good. That means they can’t afford to spend money on killing decent Western people. In any case, doesn’t Islam include provisions about charity, and why aren’t their “brothers in Islam” in the ME helping them if that’s the case? And why the heck should the West in general, and America specifically, help people who hate us?
Surprised Emperor Bokassa and his refrigerator full of human bodies did not make list.
Because it’s the right of Muslims to demand that help, and the proper place of the infidel to give it. So says Sharia law, which applies everywhere, or will if Muslims have their way.
Fletcher Christian: And why the heck should the West in general, and America specifically, help people who hate us?
Because it is the moral imperative of the religious tradition which underpins the West, that coincidentally is referred to by the same sounds you make when you say your last name.
Matthew 5:
[43] Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
[44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Be interested in Wretch’s work on the organizers who resisted Marcos and the CP. I’m guessing, though, that histories of SNCC and the Civil Rights Movement might have a little more resonance for most Americans. Especially in this moment. I’m thinking of work on the Southern Freedom Movement by Wes Hogan, Taylor Branch, David Halberstam, John Dittmars, Charles Payne. Their histories provide deep insights into the American organizing traditon. Alinsky’s “Rules” on the other hand, is more of a period piece and was always something of a hoot (as was his hortatory bio of John L. Lewis). His stuff isn’t as revelatory/relevant as the work done by Movement historians. (Just as his organizing achievements don’t compare to those of Moes, Bevel, King et. al.)
Wade – I’d urge you to look into what Bob Moses did when he went “inside the iceberg” in Miss in 61 – There’s a moving account in Branch’s “Parting the Waters” – Helps you imagine the kind of patient heroism it took to successfully organize beat-down folks w/o the support of “the strongest tribe” (and with a commitment to non-violence). Fine to appreciuate Petraeu’s achievement. Doubt he would counsel you to downgrade organizing efforts that might have been even more in the American grain…
BTW – As you may know, I’ve invoked the American CR Movement in the course of trying to get a handle on events in Iraq. – http://www.firstofthemonth.org/archives/2005/07/with_friends_li.html
That wasn’t a one-off…Here’s a couple graphs from piece I published in the Winter of 2004, arguing that the U.S. Army – “our country’s most powerful working class institution” – is at this point the chief protector of human rights in Iraq:”…
“I think therefore I doubt Bush and Co.’s commitment to the freedom of Iraqis, but I trust Major Arthurine Jones. A recent NBC story about this African American grandmother who’s currently serving in Iraq in a Civil Affairs unit highlighted her achievements. Major Jones has apparently made a ‘difference’ in the towns where her unit has been working to rebuild schools and playgrounds — Iraqi children who acted like ‘zombies’ have been charmed by ‘Grandma’ Jones. Her commanding officer notes: ‘She’s just got that very loving approch, yet professional. It’s one of the most vibrant tools I have in this command to use.’ His line sounded better than it reads — the ‘tool’ in questoin doesn’t feel she’s being ‘used.’ Major Jones is proud of what she’s doing in Iraq.
While the NBC story invoked the mythos of the Black matriarch, correspondent Kevin Tibbbles didn’t allude to Grandma Jones’ race…Which allowed him to avoid spelling out the implications of his own story. I’m sure Major Jones would allow that her work reconstructing communities in the Sunni Triangle implicitly raises questions about America’s neglect of our own inner city schools and neighborhoods. We need to bring (her version of) the war home.”
Hey Wade – think I can get a gig as O’s speechwriter ?- You know us libs (as per you and Wretch) – always out to turn good intentions to dust…
Fletcher Christian: Kindly resume your true persona of Captain Bligh. Your disguise is wearing a bit thin.
FYI: The Philippine Island of Mindanao is 80% Christian and but 15% Muslim. The rest are split between some pagan tribes and a handful of Protestants.
I shan’t bother explaining the current Mindanao problems to you—they are way above your pay grade. I will point out that in the recent past, there was a more severe communist problem in certain quarters. It was solved by a Filipino Special Forces Colonel who cranked up the Alsa Masa Vigilantes. The Colonel was a Moro. That is Spanish for Moor which means Muslim.
And we hardly need to talk about how most Moros rendered invaluable services in WWII.
I do suggest, Fletcher, that you learn how to stop wearing red coats and marching in a straight line. I know some Muslim gentlemen in the PI who would be happy to assist you.
And if you want to learn how things can be transformed, try Thomas Cahill’s book “How The Irish Saved Civilization”. Were it not for the disciples of St Paddy, England today would be no more than another Pakistan.
Wretchard: The story of the non-communist, anti Marcos underground is a story that I wish could be thoroughly related. Unbelievable band or heros, I would say.
From my perch on a US MI desk, I concluded that Ferdinand Marcos was spending a lot more time and effort coddling communists than opposing them. My efforts to point this out to certain authorities/diplomats were, to put it mildly, unappreciated.
Without you and your comrades, that People Power Revolution of 1986 could never have taken place. Logistics, my man, logistics.
I would like to think that some efforts by a
certain Woodrow Wilson Smith were of use to you.
I just finished reading Colonel Frank Quesada’s telling of the Los Banos raid conducted primarily by young Filipinos in 1945. Little doubt that it saved many an American civilian prisoner from gruesome death. And it is little known.
Oh well. Honor comes from doing. Any adulation is a bonus.
See you mentioned JOMA Sison. When it comes to that *&^%$* of a ^%#*@, I have a suggestion: If you will bring the flag, I have the Krag. (1898 Cavalry Carbine)
Don’t know what else to say Wretch, so will you convey a heartfelt “Well Done!” to your friends?
You forgot to include the part about being on the wrong side of the education debate, in your post, Benj. Community organizing is not what Moses did was called. MLK was not a Community Organizer in any way shape or form of what the term Organizer refers to today.
I am not going to suggest that the urgency of and the trials of and tribulations of MLK, or the anti Marcos folks and what our armed forces in Afghanistan and Iraq are not the same or similar even if their methods are different. But what is it that today’s Urban centered US Community Organizers are really attempting to change? What is it that Arafat really sought to change?
Benj, I believe you are asking the wrong question. I believe this is so because IMO, you are seeking an answer other than what reality suggests is there.
Arrg Benj, I thought you already were one of his speech writers…,sheese.
Urgency of purpose, urgency of purpose drives the innovation of and application of methods. Urgency of purpose, if you do not have the urgency nothing that is said done nor spent will make a difference. There is no urgency to what “OH” and others were doing, just an over stated application of an over hyped philosophy. And Huge, HUGE differences of intent.
The urgency is found on a scale of Maslow’s making. It is not make believe.
Serendiity? I’ve had to clean out my parent’s garage and found some letters and documents of mine from when I worked in the Philippines in the late 60′s and early 70′s on a large cattle ranch. A minor part of my job was teaching the ranch hands to shoot, not each other, but hopefully some of the Moros who were active in the area. Their weapons were a variety of US WWII surplus plus one almost impossible to maintain Type 96 LMG. When working it made a wonderful noise that entertained the ranch hands better than a soap opera.
But what I thought was a struggle between Catholics and Muslims, according to the local priest and Marcos officials, but in reality a struggle against organized gangs of theives and extortionists. While the Moros had been fighting the Christians, the Spanish, the Americans and now their fellow Filipinos so long that what passed for a defense of their religion was simply the tactical lessons learned from running criminal enterprises for centuries. Taking only one calf in a raid, even when hungry, was not because of a desire to win the hearts and minds of the Christians, but the realization that if they left the cow and the steer there would be something to steal the next year.
Plus I have to thank Benj for mentioning one of the few radicals I still admire from the civil rights era, Bob Moses. He started his Math Project for children and teens around the same time the FBI was watching him because he was a threat to the nation’s safety.
“…what really fuels the Jihad: it isn’t religion, it isn’t belief, it’s money.” – Strategy Page
Ding, Ding, Ding! Correct!
There isn’t all much of a difference between the Taliban and bank robbers, except maybe bank robbers are nicer. -Wretchard
Yes, that is true.
“…a good rule of thumb for judging movements is to conclude that the more high minded a cause pretends to be, the more sordid are its actual motives.” -Wretchard
That is true most of the time.
“…the 10 most decadent dictators in recent history; vicious men who literally wallowed in wealth and luxury often while their populations starved.” – Wretchard
How true. That is why it is necessary to wage both a hot war and an economic war.
The more intensive one wages said wars the quicker the wars end. Waging war requires economic strangulation of the enemy (the more accurate the suffocation the better).
When the west realizes this, which given the high gas prices may happen very soon, the better we will be able to win said wars.
“But what is it that today’s Urban centered US Community Organizers are really attempting to change?”
Bring about Cratered Urban Centers in Chicago’s case, like too many others. More people being shot this summer in Chicago than troops lost in Iraq.
—
Benj brings up Halberstam, which brings up Diem:
“Mark Moyar, an associate professor at the U.S. Marine Corps University and author of two histories of Vietnam,[15] claimed in a National Review opinion piece that Halberstam, along with fellow Vietnam journalists Neil Sheehan and Stanley Karnow, helped to bring about the 1963 coup of South Vietnamese president Ngo Dinh Diem by sending negative information on Diem to the U.S. government, in news articles and in private, because they decided Diem was unhelpful in the war effort.
Moyar claims that much of this information was false or misleading.[16] Historian Jeremy Kuzmarov disagrees, writing that Moyar’s analysis underplays the fact that Diem was a corrupt, brutal and unpopular dictator, who tortured and executed opponents without trial. Kuzmarov says that while Moyar raises some valid criticisms about the methodologies of Halberstam and Sheehan, responsibility for the coup ultimately lies with Washington policymakers.[17]“
The Taliban running the hottest ticket in town?
I wonder what the US is doing in Columbia and Afghanistan? That free Kosovo has certainly become a nice transit point.
The last time I checked cocaine and heroin were still in good supply…..
Teresita-
The Bible, like the Constitution, is not a suicide pact.
“it isn’t religion, it isn’t belief, it’s money”.
I must respectfully disagree.
It IS religion “what really fuels the Jihad”, though perhaps not religion as we know it, Jim.
For real die-hard idealogues, it is always The Idea that matters. It may be a religion, or political or tribal system, but whatever form it takes The Idea is The End, and The End justifies The Means.
Different terror groups may seem to have different messages, but this upper-echelon psychopathic mindset is the same, whether it be Hamas, the IRA, Sendero Luminoso or the Taliban.
Like psychopaths, these idealogues lack empathy, seeing other people as mere objects to be used to achieve The End. Therefore, The Means are whatever it takes: robbery, drug-dealing, sex-slavery, appalling torture, random killings, no crime is too terrible, nothing is ruled out.
For the Jihadis, the Idea is Jihad, and imho it makes no difference
whether a particular action is “explicitly condemned by the Koran”
or not, so long as it works to the advantage of The End. Broadly, their argument is that the Koran only limits actions between true Muslims, and that everything is halal in Jihad against the kuffar (a grouping which includes noncompliant Muslims).
When very large numbers of Muslims are active in Jihad, it is almost inevitable that many of them will be a bit shaky in their faith, being seduced by the money, the drugs, the thrill of violence, or just the general excitement of life on the edge. However, being Muslims they will still feel a need to reference their actions, to seek approval within some kind of Muslim framework, and this “moral” support is provided by the idealogues of AQ and the Taliban.
I DO agree that attacking the Jihadis various criminal activities is vital, because that reduces their income and inhibits their networks, and may help to uncover actual terror cells and foil attacks.
The But is, and it is a Big But, that even if we could follow the
money all the way the end of the trail, there we would still find
religion, and a bunch of idealogues mumbling “Allah permits, Allah permits…”.
I just got my “application for Absent Voter’s Ballot” in the mail. I wonder if anyone will offer to help fill it out? I only hope she’s cute. In Ohio this fall ballots will carpet the ground game like “ACORNS” from the mighty Left-Democrat Oak! Turn out, baby, turn out.
De Tocqueville said that people value equality over liberty. The temptation: if they cannot be equal in freedom they will find equality in relation to one man — a despot that is so capricious and raised so high that all his subjects are equal when compared to “One.” I will not say Sen. O is such a “one” (I certainly hope not) but the cult of personality that has so quickly formed around him is worrying.
This is why local government (small town mayors and all) and state governments are so important — along with all the intermediary private institution and the private economy. They form the rocks upon which despotism smashes.
One of the great threats we face is our national “celebrity-centric” media. They need to convince you that the most important events that effect your life happen within twenty minutes of where they live rather than twenty minutes of where you live. They want you focused on the national centers of power, so that is where the answer for every question are found. All to often this even applies to conservatives in Washington. It is not what’s in the water, it’s what’s in the cocktails. Washington is their home and a quite comfortable home it has become. They move from the comfortable kitchen to the comfortable living room to the comfortable den and, with all that inbreeding going on, the comfortable bedroom as well.
The result: the media that sells itself as the watchdog of the people has become the guard dog of the bureaucracy and the attack dogs of the government-media party, now virtually identical with the Democrats. More power to the center! All hail the Capitol.
It IS religion “what really fuels the Jihad”, though perhaps not religion as we know it,
I think religion and ideology do play a significant part, but they have to tap into some worldly consideration to attain force. One of the attractions of the Jihad is precisely that it allows a person to kill, steal, dominate and rape licitly, or even as a “sacred duty”. The most powerful cults are those which legitimize behavior which is banned by the deepest social taboos. Give me a religion that will justify anything, and I will give you a cult that will sweep the world.
This was a powerful driver of revolutionary Marxism in the early 20th century. It conferred a license to do anything at all in the name of revolution. That was heady tonic, especially for young people. It freed you of parental authority, tribal customs and anything else in the name of a higher cause you had to serve. The Weathermen, for example, were bound by nothing but their own desires. They preferred it. And why not? You could rob banks, groove on Charles Manson, have “free love”, hate your country, lie, cheat and scheme and yet feel absolutely self-righteous about it in the bargain. It was a self-licking ice cream cone. The Jihad, like Legion, has many names.
I was surprised, but not too surprised to discover in later life that people I had met; people who were well spoken, sane, barbered and apparently sober; good chess players and cultured individuals, guys who could discuss Sarte and Heidegger and all the rest of it later killed hundreds, perhaps thousands of people. You wouldn’t think it. But it is now well established that in the mid and late 1980s, the Leftists, furious and perplexed at being “robbed” of their seizure of power by the 1986 People’s Power Revolution, came to believe their failure must be due to infiltration, their own ideology and strategy being flawless. The plan was perfect. If it wasn’t working it could only be due to capitalist roaders, wreckers and all the assorted demons that Marxists conjure from their private hell. And armed with supreme freedom and self-righteousness, these cultured souls launched three massive purges — exorcisms really — with charming names like Operation Garlic (Ahos), Operation Missing Link and Operation Olympia against enemies they called “zombies”. I’m sure the nomenclature only coincidentally evoked the nether regions, but it was suitable all the same. And they killed and killed without the slightest hesitation. And I doubt whether to this day any of them feels the slightest twinge of remorse.
I’m convinced that what attracts people to the leadership of extreme ideologies is the desire for fame, power or money. They may call it “belief”, but it is really a form of obsessive insanity. It was once said the British Empire was a form of “outdoor relief” for the British upper classes. One day it will be discovered that extremism is what happens when small minded academics play out their fantasies. It is the Walter Mitty dream of mediocrities. Their Monster From the Id. That’s why revolution will always be more popular on campus than among “the people”. That’s not to deny there are pure idealists. There are some, but they are mostly useful to their leaders dead. Martyrdom is money — for the revolutionary cause. The best place for a John Cornford or Bobby Sands is in a coffin where they can be kept quiet yet used to raise money and give legitimacy for causes which are quite frankly, crimes, with apologies to crime. The most evil thing about extremisms and the cults they spawn is that they are the ultimate betrayers of idealism. They twist flowers into wreaths to the point where you begin to wonder whether humanity is capable of goodness at all; that maybe even our impulses to charity are despicable urges in disguise. Sometimes that path leads to despair; at other times to faith because it implies we are incapable of saving ourselves unless it were through undeserved grace.
To Wretchard:
************
They twist flowers into wreaths to the point where you begin to wonder whether humanity is capable of goodness at all; that maybe even our impulses to charity are despicable urges in disguise. Sometimes that path leads to despair; at other times to faith because it implies we are incapable of saving ourselves unless it were through undeserved grace.
************
From the vantage point of my years, what impresses me about humanity is that love and nobility do exist. They are sometimes hidden so deeply that I despair ever to see them again. And then, from some deep well comes a gift of love, a noble gesture that is so totally unexpected that it seems like a ray of sun breaking through roiling storm clouds. I sometimes believe that these hidden human strengths are what keeps God from pressing reset and starting all over again. It surprises even Him and He holds off for a while longer just to see where this experiment is going.
For real die-hard idealogues, it is always The Idea that matters. It may be a religion, or political or tribal system, but whatever form it takes The Idea is The End, and The End justifies The Means.
Oho, beat me to it. I would note that Comrade Stalin made his bones with Lenin by his ‘exes’, expropriations, generally bank robberies – which fits neatly with the Strategypage heading of this thread. Thus Lenin could afford his ‘professional revolutionaries’, paid community organizers funded by said robberies and some other funding sources – such as marrying his ‘radical chic’ followers to wealthy heiress, whose fortunes helped destroy their own families.
Hard to avoid thinking that the Walter Annenberg fortune was similarly used by Bill Ayers/Barak Obama, not as Annenberg intended (to improve education), but rather to fund – enormously – their own favored ‘community organizers’ and organizations, at the expense of the slighted Chicago schools. Thus a rung on Barak’s ‘means of ascent’ ladder.
Any mass movement comprises a variety of people with a variety of motivations. Furthermore, each individual within the movement comprises a variety of motivations.
Although a movement as a whole might be characterized correctly as immoral and deceitful, the movement nevertheless probably still contains within its members much motivation that is moral and sincere.
Any outsider who decides to dismiss reflexively an entire mass movement as absolutely criminal and evil never will understand it well.
The primary evidence for determining another person’s motivations is that person’s own explanation of his own motivations. The explanation might be deceptive, but it might be partially true or at least might provide a framework for outlining the real motivations.
As I understand the Talibans’ motivation, they strive to establish a society guided strictly by Islamic principles. I presume they really do act on that motivation even though they grow and export opium, which we here consider to be a crime. I presume the the Taliban don’t perceive any moral contradiction at all, because Islamic scriptures do not explicitly prohibit growing and exporting opium.
Wretchard, I have witnessed the way leftist ideology has been used to justify calls for murdering “bad guys” who are decent people. That is why I mentioned the “killers” in my post a few days ago. Most people do not realize the way an ideology plus guns can turn male teenagers into organized killer gangs.
When I read that the Serbs and the Croats had armed their teenagers and organized them into militias I said to a friend they are going to start a bloody civil war. The motivation for this was the realization by the Communists bosses of the Yugoslav states that the economic system created by Tito was undercut by the World Bank and the IMF.
I was asked by a policy person in DC to write an academic article about this but my paper was rejected by the Yugolslav “area experts” in the main political science journals.
“As I understand the Talibans’ motivation, they strive to establish a society guided strictly by Islamic principles. I presume they really do act on that motivation …”
Mike, do you think the motivation of the Poles to turn their Jewish population over to the Nazi’s was more because the Poles believed in Nazi-ism, or a desire to move into the homes of the absent Jews, take over their left-behind cars, and wear the fur coats left in their closets?
Why on earth would you find it in your heart to believe the Taliban are motivated by the morality preached by Islam, but also universally ignored by the practitioners of same? Do you also really believe that Obama wants to be President to “do good for America” or for the personal power (and wealth) that will come to him and the chance to kick whitey in the teeth?
I’m not sure if your post is a sign of sweet naivety or just stupid ignorance, but it doesn’t bode well for your continued health as a citizen of the world.
///
What do we think happened to the billions of dollars we have poured into Pakistan since 2001? I can’t see that the country has done anything with it to improve itself, the Taliban and the military don’t seem to have bought themelves any better grade of weapons, and Musharref is still there which makes me wonder if he’s bothered to set up his Swiss bank account like any decent, God-fearing dictator would have done from skimming American largesse.
Like Arafat, there reaches a point in the accumulation of bribes and wealth where it just becomes ridiculous. Arafat had gazillions of dollars socked away when he died and was still skimming and not using the money to make a better nation. Saddam, Mugabe, Idi Amin, Mubarek, Marcos — all of them have fed at the Western teet, enriching themselves to the detriment of their countries and the people under them. Wouldn’t you think they would notice, eventually, that it’s counterproductive?
Doug (& Wade) – You may like to know that Petraeus is on record as being an appreciative reader of Halb’s “Best and Brightest” and that he was particularly struck by Sheehan’s “Bright Shining Lie” – S.’s account of John Paul Vann’s failed counterinsurgency efforts in Viet Nam…Might check that New Yorker profile of P. by Steve Coll…
John Paul Vann’s failed counterinsurgency efforts in Viet Nam were later successfully employed by Creighton Abrams.
Too bad the Democrats in Congress defunded the effort and consequently threw victory away.
http://hnn.us/articles/31400.html
“…we are incapable of saving ourselves unless…through undeserved grace.”
whoosh!
Wretchard,
I hestitate to post this link, because I don’t believe Obama is a muslim…
http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2008/09/did_i_hear_this.php
I’d like to see the entire interview and make up my mind if he makes a freudian slip or if this is more like one of those 57 states comments he’s made… or even something like opposition propaganda…
Has anyone seen the entire interview? Can you comment on the context regarding his statement?
Many thanks, and sorry for the slight thread hijack.
Triton
Are you saying the Taliban isn’t motivated by Islam? The Quran explicitly says that Muhammad is the supreme example of proper conduct by a Muslim. When the Taliban murder, rape, steal, and extort, they are doing as Muhammad did, which makes what they do acts of religious devotion. There is no tension here between religious and other motives, no “they’re *really* only in it for the money”. Stop thinking in Christian terms, it gets in the way of understanding Islam. Islam is explicit in teaching its followers to seek political, military, and economic power until Islam is dominant over everything.
I think religion and ideology do play a significant part, but they have to tap into some worldly consideration to attain force. One of the attractions of the Jihad is precisely that it allows a person to kill, steal, dominate and rape licitly, or even as a “sacred duty”. The most powerful cults are those which legitimize behavior which is banned by the deepest social taboos. Give me a religion that will justify anything, and I will give you a cult that will sweep the world.
But, wretchard, that IS the Islam of Mohammed. That IS the Islam of the Koran and the biographies of Mohammed. The only escape for those in its path was to convert and take up the sword.
“I presume the the Taliban don’t perceive any moral contradiction at all, because Islamic scriptures do not explicitly prohibit growing and exporting opium”- Mike Sylwester
Mike, if it was that simple then they would not have needed a fatwa. According to Mullah Hezbollah, opium was “produced by poppy farmers in Helmand, thanks to a Taliban fatwa, or holy order. “Our scholars have given a religious decree saying that things which are usually abominable in Islam are permitted to wage jihad against the enemies of Islam,” he said”. see:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1566163/Taliban-use-hostage-cash-to-fund-UK-blitz.html
And it is not unusual for drug traffickers to see their actions as a form of redemption, for example Badruddoza Chowdhury Momen: “it is a noble…responsibility to spoil Western society with drugs”. see:
http://www.jamestown.org/terrorism/news/article.php?issue_id=4103
A lot has been written about this religiously-sanctioned criminal behaviour, and if you search the web a while you will see many more examples, and not just in Afghanistan.
When I read some one referencing our “failed” Viet Nam policy, I become somewhat incoherent. When you have a moment and wish to understand a little of what our pulling out of Viet Nam really meant, Google the ARVN Rangers. They deserved better.
programmer, agreed.
There was nothing inherently wrong with John Paul Vann’s counterinsurgency doctrine. I read Sheehan’s book too long ago to state it with certainty, but my remembrance is that not even he argued the point differently. What failed was our leadership higher up. Westmoreland was the wrong general for this particular war, although he may have been fine for WW II. Yet in the end it was the failure of our civilian leadership that was determinative. As already stated, that failure includes not only those in Congress who defunded a by then succeeding effort, but most also, to be fair, include Nixon who kept the promises made to the S. Vietnamese secret from the American Public. (Not that it would have made any difference to some in our otherwise noble and steadfast Republic.)
I think my previous comment got blocked because of links I included, so here goes without the links:
“I presume the the Taliban don’t perceive any moral contradiction at all, because Islamic scriptures do not explicitly prohibit growing and exporting opium”- Mike Sylwester
Mike, if it was that simple then they would not have needed a fatwa. According to Mullah Hezbollah, opium was produced by poppy farmers in Helmand under a Taliban fatwa. “Our scholars have given a religious decree saying that things which are usually abominable in Islam are permitted to wage jihad against the enemies of Islam”.
And it is not unusual for drug traffickers to see their actions as a form of redemption, for example Badruddoza Chowdhury Momen: “it is a noble…responsibility to spoil Western society with drugs”.
A lot has been written about this religiously-sanctioned criminal behaviour, and if you search the web a while you will see many more examples, and not just in Afghanistan.
sirius_sir, point taken and well made, sir.
Allow me to recommend the Preface to Auden’s The Sea and the Mirror”.
Read it sometime; it speaks a bit to all of this.
A fictional, though somewhat apocryphal story is Steven Pressfield’s “The Afghan Campaign”, regarding Alexander’s +3 years in the region he tried to pacify which today includes Afghanistan. He spent more time fighting the tribes than the Persian empire. Does that sound familiar?
There, as other places, Islam took on a lot of the tribal notions and culture already in place. This is also not unlike the paganism that has melded with Catholicism in South American, Africa and elsewhere.
The point being, that there has been precious little change in the tribal culture in Afghanistan since the time of Alexander. Tribal loyalties are maintained or change witht the shifting of the winds, mainly to do with stealing wealth and collecting swag. They are bandits by nature because that is what continues to work for them, as a group.
There is no underlying cultural reason for the people of this country to unite in a national idea, because there is no national idea in Afghanistan that organizes all its people. There are indeed “nationalists” in Afghanistan, but I would suspect there is a tribal aspect to that, too.
Iraq/Mesopotamia/Babylon has had something of a national vision of itself for a long time. The difference, I think, is that it has been possible for the family unit to survive and prosper economically because over the centuries, they have been able to grow enough food to feed themselves, and escape, periodically, the cycle of stealing from each other to make ends meet.
If we could figure out a way for the individual and his family to “make it” economically (without the poppy) in Afghanistan, this might go a long way to forming a ‘nationalist’ culture, which would break the tribal looter and banditry culture cycle.
Bob Smith – you are, of course, correct. I had a momentary lapse and was thinking of Islam’s totally-ignored prescriptions for charitable-giving, protection of the down-trodden, and equal status for females.
Tritan – re: Obama’s latest slip, “Barack Obama gave an interview to George Stephanopoulos on ABC’s This Week. The interview is set to air tomorrow morning, but here are some excerpts released by ABC.”
I’m guessing the whole interview may not be made available until tomorrow.
obama has been caught making up stories (i.e. lying) about wanting to join the military back in 1979. the man is flailing around like he’s gut shot.
Sylwester: “Although a movement as a whole might be characterized correctly as immoral and deceitful, the movement nevertheless probably still contains within its members much motivation that is moral and sincere.”
Evil knows itself, and knows that it is unendurable. That is why when we, that’s you and I, do evil, be it large or small, we seek to justify it. We concoct rationalizations to hide the nature of what we have done from ourselves, and, when challenged, from others. So it is with movements and ideologies. Were the bare, naked truth of them believably opened to the view of the world they would be scorned or ridiculed at best and the worst of them would be instantly destroyed.
Here on this terrestrial sphere humans are the admixture of the Divine Spark and of the basest clay. All have sinned, says St. Paul, all fall short of the Glory of God Whose Image vivifies us and informs us. It is a common tactic of evil to use this fact as a justification to minimize it’s perceived wickedness in it’s critics. Hitler, after all, loved dogs and children, how bad could he have really been? I remember Pol Pot being depicted as a poor, misunderstood victim, an old man whose dreams had died. He was allowed to live out the rest of his life in peace. His victims are dead anyhow, so what difference does it make?
If these examples do not make your guts coil you are morally dead and not to be trusted. There are many such, and more are made daily.
Pilate asked, “What it truth,” and showed that the use of carefully laundered narratives as facades for hidden lies and uncomfortable facts is as old as man himself. And it is universally part of our fallen nature, as any of us can remember not the first time pointed the finger and said “It wasn’t me, Mama.”
Exculpation is even cheaper than grace.
Yes, be sure that there are glimmers of goodness in the most wicked individuals and in the most depraved ideologies, just as there are similar shadows in all the best. What of it? Shall I pity Pol Pot and rage against George Bush? I think not. The reason for that is not because I am a fervid partisan of Bush’s, but because I am partisan of Truth. All is not relative. There are higher principles and reliable guidelines for knowing, understanding and living well and honorably in an piebald world. It should be remembered that there is a Heaven and a Hell; people choose which road they will travel. Heaven is populated with the imperfect of this world, and Hell with nice folks with good intentions.
Wretchard’s list of revolutionary con-artists covers the sublimely monsterous, but there is also the ridiculously pathetic. A couple of years ago, a Green Party activist resurrected a defunct neighborhood association where I live. The announced purpose, to secure enforcement of a City ordinance against landlords packing rent houses in the neighborhood with college students, was enthusiastically supported by the residents during the organizational phase. However, as soon as the association was in business, the fearless leader maneuvered to block any demand that the City enforce the ordinance. He had his clique as officers, and over a couple years of their inaction on enforcement, membership declined steadily. But that didn’t matter, because the fearless leader put enough effort into kissing up to the City, and certainly not antagonizing them with demands for enforcement, that his neighborhood association was given a Best of the Year Award. He then used this award to land a job as a neighborhood planner with a muncipal government in another state, and took off without ever having addressed the original problem of the residents. It’s a continuum all the way from this kind of chicken-s**t opportunism to Kim Jong Il.
Freddoso cites instance after instance of Obama resisting change, choosing instead to perpetuate the existing scheme of corruption.
From HotAir.com
Video: No, Obama didn’t “admit” to being a Muslim on ABC
posted at 3:00 pm on September 7, 2008 by Allahpundit
Within 10 minutes of this airing we’d already gotten four or five e-mails about it; 20 minutes later, a bowdlerized version had already hit YouTube and begun circulating. I despise lefty sites for twisting conservatives’ words by selectively editing clips, so let’s cut this one off at the pass before it gets going. Here’s the full exchange with Stephanopoulos, making it perfectly clear that when he says “my Muslim faith” he’s referring to how the people smearing him see him, not how he sees himself. No mas, please.
Thanks NahnCee, that fits with what how I understand it to be…
Frankly, though, it wouldn’t have mattered – Muslim or not, he’s waaaaaaaay too far out on the Left for me to EVER consider voting for him.
Triton
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQqIpdBOg6I
1:59 with as much context as there is.
I recommend you watch it with the sound turned off first.
Watch the body language. Watch his hands. Watch his eyes.
Then listen.
Make up your OWN mind.
Thrasymachus; well said. Only the most saintly of Christians (the Quakers, for example) believe in standing by while one’s enemies murder one’s friends, much less actively helping those enemies.
My opinion regarding Muslims is that every single one of them, living in a country that isn’t already a theocracy under Sharia law, is a traitor, seditionist or enemy agent; I confess to some confusion as to the technical difference between sedition and treason. However, according to my limited understanding, working to change the government and legal system of your country by illegal means up to and including armed violence constitutes treason (or maybe sedition, which is very nearly as serious).
Hence, for example, American Muslims are traitors one and all; unless one happens not to believe in Sharia, in which case (according to Muslim writings) he is not really a Muslim at all.
On a different point, made already by others; the impetus for the violence of Muslims may well be religious but the resources for their violence are paid for with money – which means that whatever way can be found to reduce the income of Islam should be tried. And the most obvious one of these is to reduce the demand for, and price of, oil. The way to do this is to find other energy sources, of which there are many; I and many others have banged this particular drum a great deal, but suffice it to say that the methods most popular with Greens are also the worst. The best by far, IMHO, is space solar power – clean, effectively unlimited, and the getting of it gains humanity many other options and astronomical amounts (literally!) of other resources as a byproduct. Polywell fusion comes a close second; it’s going to be cheap to develop, will probably work – and once we have it, with minor design changes we have ultra-efficient reaction engines for space use as well.
Once we have alternatives in place; then prevent exports of oil from the ME, confiscate all their foreign assets and let’s see whether the murderous SOBs can eat their oil.
Brief slip puts Barack Obama in tough spot
Gallup tracking just went +3% for McCain.
The Messiah is in trouble!
The trick now is to get the Chosen-One to panic and start shrieking “Racism!” and/or reveal his inner-moonbat (paging Sarah Palin!). That will be the beginning of a McGovern/1972 repeat.
Romans
7:21 So, I find the law that when I want to do good, evil is present with me. 7:22 For I delight in the law of God in my inner being. 7:23 But I see a different law in my members waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that is in my members. 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 7:25 Thanks be 25 to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!
Fletcher,
I agree with you on energy and I think it is important for both the US and the UK to become more energy independent.
However that is unlikely to make any appreciable difference to the income of oil producers because of the rapidly increasing demand for oil from China and India.
There is no cheaper power than fossil fuels and while Europe and Japan and places like that with more or less static economies can consider or even move towards alternative energy sources, the rapidly expanding economies of China and India simply cannot.
Nobody that I know of has yet succesively decoupled energy use from GNP.
Perhaps that is one of the great challenges of our time and there would be many benefits, especially if you were limp dick leftie or angst ridden euro weenie enough to believe in “global warming”.
Wretchard wrote:
” The Taliban in Pakistan (TTP, or Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan) has an economy based on crime. ”
Indeed. How much of it is being paid by the US taxpayer, Wretchard?
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/07/magazine/07pakistan-t.html?ref=magazine&pagewanted=all
“And then the retired Pakistani official offered another explanation — one that he said could never be discussed in public. The reason the Pakistani security services support the Taliban, he said, is for money: after the 9/11 attacks, the Pakistani military concluded that keeping the Taliban alive was the surest way to win billions of dollars in aid that Pakistan needed to survive. The military’s complicated relationship with the Taliban is part of what the official called the Pakistani military’s “strategic games.” Like other Pakistanis, this former senior official spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of what he was telling me.
“Pakistan is dependent on the American money that these games with the Taliban generate,” the official told me. “The Pakistani economy would collapse without it. This is how the game works.”
As an example, he cited the Pakistan Army’s first invasion of the tribal areas — of South Waziristan in 2004. Called Operation Shakai, the offensive was ostensibly aimed at ridding the area of Taliban militants. From an American perspective, the operation was a total failure. The army invaded, fought and then made a deal with one of the militant commanders, Nek Mohammed. The agreement was capped by a dramatic meeting between Mohammed and Safdar Hussein, one of the most senior officers in the Pakistan Army.
“The corps commander was flown in on a helicopter,” the former official said. “They had this big ceremony, and they embraced. They called each other mujahids. ”
“Mujahid” is the Arabic word for “holy warrior.” The ceremony, in fact, was captured on videotape, and the tape has been widely distributed.
“The army agreed to compensate the locals for collateral damage,” the official said. “Where do you think that money went? It went to the Taliban. Who do you think paid the bill? The Americans. This is the way the game works. The Taliban is attacked, but it is never destroyed.
“It’s a game,” the official said, wrapping up our conversation. “The U.S. is being taken for a ride.”
Gallup: http://www.pollingreport.com/wh08gen.htm
McCain 54%
Obama 44%
Thanks for the suggestion to leave the sound off Cannoneer.
Whenever Barry is spinning heavily his head remains constantly tilted.
Pretty good example here.
When he lied to Anderson Cooper about never hearing most of Wright’s message, it looked like his head was going to fall off!
You know, I’ll give Obama the benefit of the doubt on this. I could accept that he meant to say, “my supposed muslim faith” or something of that nature. Of course, I’m frequently considered by many to be overly charitable on such matters.
But I think it does indicate that he seems to be sort of fraying under the pressure.
Besides, the worst of the “muslim attacks” in his campaign actually originated from his fellow democrats back during the primaries.
An interesting thing about a lot of O’s “slips,” like the 57 states, is that he doesn’t seem to hear himself talk.
For example, I slip often enough when I speak — and I speak in public a fair amount — but the moment the words leave my mouth I realize it and correct the mistake. I might well have said 57 states myself, but I would have heard it, back-tracked, probably made a joke about it, and moved on. Obama just plowed ahead.
He was doing the same thing here. Stephanopolous corrected him. Obama was just moving right along. Apparently, nothing he heard sounded strange to his own ears. I just find this odd. Hopefully he’s not negotiating with Putin some day without somebody around to correct him.
MSNBC: “Da ship is sinking… Whatta we do? Let’s throw some rats overboard!”
David Gregory will replace Keith Olbermann and Chris Matthews as the anchor of NBC’s political news coverage.
Joe Biden debates the Surge and Iraq policy with Tom Brokaw on Meet the Press (starts a little more than halfway down the page). I think Joe lost. Sample:
MR. BROKAW: But the surge helped make that timeline possible, did it not?
McCain got a big bounce — four points up on Obama.
SEN. BIDEN: Well, it did help make it possible. It did help. But it’s not the reason. Look, they also–take a look at the analysis, Tom. They say the reason why there’s such success against the, the insurgency is because of now small, very well trained counterinsurgency units. It’s not the numbers, it’s the type of units that are in there. What I was arguing about before was we have the wrong units in there. We have the wrong kind of force in there. We weren’t focused on counterinsurgency.
Kind of leaves out that whole “protecting the population thing.” Point is, Brokaw was trying to not dismember Joe. It was just sort of, an accident.
Sorry, the “McCain got a big bounce” was not part of the interview. I meant it to appear at the bottom of the comment. I do miss the preview feature.
Clinton turns down hatchet job.
“We’re not going to be anybody’s attack dog against Sarah Palin,” a Clinton insider said yesterday.
The rumor has it that the actual exchange went like this:
Hillary: “Sorry, I’m rearranging my sock drawer.”
Obama: “But women don’t have sock drawers.”
Hillary: “They don’t? No wonder it’s going to take two months to finish it!”
McCain/Palin breakout would do wonders for the confidence needed (currentlt MIA partly due to Obama’s staggeringly anti-business tax plan) to open the credit markets back up. Keep an eye on credit spreads –and their so-called second derivatives –the rate of change –to get early indication if polls are being taken seriously by the money people.
Wretchard: “Give me a religion that will justify anything, and I will give you a cult that will sweep the world.”
There are several things which are common to Islam, Nazism, Fascism and Communism. At the most basic level these ideologies glorify and release the animal instincts of man and suppress the God-like spiritual aspects of man. Also, the religion of Islam is also a totalitarian political ideology, i.e.: Sharia Law. The totalitarian political ideologies of Nazism, Fascism and Communism are also implemented with an emotional, and often irrational, zeal which is religious, and even evangelical, in nature.
As far as the human heart and mind are concerned, there is no significant difference between Islam, Nazism, Fascism and Communism.
What is the so called denomination of Trinity Church? the Reverent Wrights’ denomination?
After attending for twenty years I think that would be “Oh”s professed line of faithfulness. If you can figure out what that faith is given the mix and jumble of messages and expressions of faith, then well, you should know what his religious preference is.
But as I have (in prior glimpses at the Trinity website), been unable to determine (on grounds of professed belief), what it is, I can only take “Oh”s word (for what other measure, on anything, do we have, but his word) for what it is.
Benj, like the peace corp with attitude, is but one short definition of CI that I was struck by. I think the question of whether Counter Insurgency is closer to Civil Rights movements or to Community Organizing efforts since the Civil Rights era is thin stuff for debate.
And it is not from some nostalgia for a long gone by that I declare the difference is real. The need was clear then, the measures taken were from necessity, a matter of survival of human dignity as well as body and soul in a situation that could not be overcome individually or disjointedly. It is not the case in the United States of America today that a class of persons is denied the ability to seek relief from wrongful systematic oppression.
brand new USA Today poll –McCain/Palin “among registered voters” open 10 point lead!
Oz mkts “best opening in six months, led by financials”
Japan’s Nikkei index opens up nearly 3%
Fan/Fred action early push –wait until they start discounting the new polls –gonna be BIG mkt days in Europe & USA. Asia/Pacific mkts scared to death of USA Dem’s protectionism.
The worst thing that could possibly happen to the people of Afghanistan would be if we killed Osama bin Laden tomorrow. Joe Sixpack, thinking that this whole effort has been simply to hunt down Osama, will suddenly start wondering what the hell we’re doing in Afghanistan and in the information vacuum that is our MSM will come to the conclusion that its not much. He in his millions will demand the immediate cessation of all efforts and return to within our borders.
And the fledgling dream that is Afghanistan will surely die.
On August 5th, 2008, the people of the very strategic Tag Ab Valley in Kapisa Province got a present; their own little Osama personified in Qari Nejat went to meet his maker. On September 4th, the news of positive identification was released to all media by CJTF 101, and on September 5th it was widely reported in the French media and even the Chinese media; and by four blogs in the United States.
The French Scoop US MSM Again by Old Blue
The war on Sarah continues…
Now an article claims to have interviewed people in Sarah’s hometown who are “too afraid to talk” (and thus the journalist cannot reveal their names!) but who will nevertheless talk to him.
““So Sambo beat the bitch!”
This is how Republican Vice Presidential nominee Sarah Palin described Barack Obama’s win over Hillary Clinton to political colleagues in a restaurant a few days after Obama locked up the Democratic Party presidential nomination.”
http://www.laprogressive.com/2008/09/05/alaskans-speak-in-a-frightened-whisper-palin-is-“racist-sexist-vindictive-and-mean”/
The rage response Sarah provoked in the Dem base is truly astonishing.
However wrote that “sambo” thing had to have been a progressive liberal looking to cast aspersions (or at least doubt) on Palin. But what does it say about an activist liberal progressive who would think in terms of words like “sambo”? It would never even occur to me to dig through my lexicon of stereotypes for black people, let alone to come up with that particular one.
What awful awful people Obama has surrounced himself with.
Doug,
Look how annoyed he gets at 0:17 on this video
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=1cB7-6MinAM&feature=related
http://explorations.chasrmartin.com/2008/09/06/palin-rumors/
NahnCee said:
“What awful awful people Obama has surrounced himself with.”
I’m hoping those same people go completely bananas as the Messiah’s popularity continues to decline. So far, the Chosen-One has maintained good self control. However if everyone around him goes into full moonbat mode then Hussein might follow suit. If he does some full throated public shrieking then his defeat is assured.
Buddy: Pls check out my copper/borax requests
on prior posts.
Where Eagles Dare
Operation Oqab Tsuka: Pashto for “Eagle’s Summit.” How the turbine got to Kajaki Dam.
Operation Eagle’s Summit: the inside story of a daring foray into Taliban territory
A few days ago, Gloria Steinem wrote an OP-ED piece in the LA Times that was extremely critical of Sarah Palin. No surprise there. Anyhow, the article drew a storm of posts, about 95% strongly against Steinem. Some of them are quite interesting and amusing.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/comments_blog/2008/09/gloria-steinem.html
Don’t knock tips! As an illustrative example, I offer an old gaffer here in Vancouver, Canada, who has staked out an intersection of a major highway and cross-town thoroughfare for years. He wears clothes vaguely resembling a traffic control worker on a construction site, complete with home-made orange and yellow vest, and walks slowly up the side of the highway at the intersection when the light is red, approaching drivers.
Perportedly, according to “streeters” who should know, he clears about $700/day.
Gawd only knows what he does with it. Some street drugs are pricier than others, I suppose!
Oops. That’s “purportedly”, of course. My bad.
How is it that Arafat got left off this list? Is it that he kept his Wife and family on Avenue Foch while he did fundraising by being present at the Israeli bulldozing of his compound? What would be the tale of his “Pleasure Brigade”?
Are you saying that, having wrote the manual for the plunderers, Alinsky was just another “useful idiot”, W?
James said: “A few days ago, Gloria Steinem wrote an OP-ED piece in the LA Times that was extremely critical of Sarah Palin. No surprise there. Anyhow, the article drew a storm of posts, about 95% strongly against Steinem. Some of them are quite interesting and amusing.”
That’s roughly the same proportion and tone of the responses of Oprah’s viewers to her decision not to interview Palin on her show before the election. Some of them are also quite interesting and amusing, but most are pretty rough on Oprah.
http://tinyurl.com/oprah-palin
It’s Oprah’s show and she can do what she wants, but deliberately avoiding the biggest buzz person in the country says volumes about the absolute fear the liberals have of Sarah Palin.
Is modern liberalism so empty that the mere presence of one successful woman is enough to throw it off course?
Great point Peter. I agree that it’s her show and can do as she pleases. That said, the show is something in which her fans are heavily emotionally invested and they are not feeling like they are getting a return on their investment. I think Oprah’s decision is going to cost her heavily in terms of viewers, readers of her magazine, and eventually revenue from syndication rights.
It is worth noting an important difference between the furor surrounding her decision and the one surrounding Steinem’s op-ed. The latter is being bashed about the head for being an out-of-date orthodox feminist. Oprah is taking heat from subordinating gender to race.
The emergence of Palin onto the nationally scene made last week a disastrous one for the identity politics crowd. I hope the McCain campaign exploits it the hilt.
Current numbers (McCain-Palin up 10% over Obama-Biden with highly likely voters) suggests that they are reaping some benefit in the short term.
Ophra subordinates intellectually stimulating programming to the lowest common denominator!!
Over a decade ago, a friend of mine and his wife said Ophra had cleaned up her act.
I, having never seen the show, had no idea.
Then I accidentally viewed some of it on the kid’s TV:
She was showing re-runs of an Escaped Elephant on the loose in Honolulu and it’s destruction.
(and the really juicey part was that people were killed too, I think)
Honolulu Star-Bulletin Hawaii News Ten Year Recap
Elephant escapes honolulu zoo – Google Search Feb 2008
“In every war there is one decisive battle.”
“On one side are the Traditionalists. We believe that church and State should be separate, but that religion should remain at the center of life. We are a Judeo-Christian culture, which means we consider those ten things on a tablet to be commandments, not suggestions. We believe that individuals are more important than groups, that families are more important than governments, that children should be raised by their parents rather than by a village, and that marriage is a sacred relationship between a man and a woman.”
“On the other side of this culture war are the Left-Wing Liberals. They are uncomfortable with our traditions, with the inevitable inequalities of our free-market economy, and with our military power. They dislike our values, our morality, and our unabashed displays of patriotism. At first — back in the 1960s — they were content merely to develop and pursue their own radical culture within ours. They tuned out, turned to drugs, and pushed the level of sexual license to a point our country had never known. They were so distressed by our imperfections that they refused to recognize or celebrate our achievements.”
“Then they tuned in, and developed a political agenda whose logical outcome would be the overthrow of the American Revolution itself. While we believe that power flows from God to the people, they believe the supreme power is the State, which decides what rights, if any, should be allowed to the people. And because there is no God above the State, there also is no truth; no such thing as right or wrong, good or evil. Since they are working to do good — by their definition of the word — whatever crimes they commit along the way don’t matter.”
“So great is this gulf between the Traditionalists and the Left-Wing Liberals — and so irreconcilable are the differences — that our decades-long political struggle has amounted to a kind of second Civil War. And for several years now, it’s been a stalemate. This is why so many elections are so close, why so many Supreme Court decisions are split 5-4, and why we’ve been unable to act decisively on any of the issues that confront us – the war, the economy, energy, healthcare, border control, immigration, and all the rest. One way or the other, the Culture War’s stalemate is about to be broken.”
“By choosing Governor Sarah Palin as his running mate — and by staking his own claim to the presidency on “Country First” more than on any specific policy initiative — John McCain has thrown the switch and put us Traditionalists onto the offense. By doing so he has unleashed the energy and the will to victory among Traditionalists that have been dormant for so long the Left-Wing Liberals mistakenly assumed we’d lost. And by taking the over-confident Left-Wing Liberals so completely by surprise, McCain has stunned them into revealing themselves for the vicious phonies that they are.”
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/09/the_culture_wars_decisive_batt_1.html
The money quote: “Then they tuned in, and developed a political agenda whose logical outcome would be the overthrow of the American Revolution itself.”
The fascination with Sarah continues:
She might just be some vacuous beauty queen, an inexperienced Caribou Barbie. Her selection may be nothing more than evidence of McCain’s desperation, senility, or perhaps insanity. But people sure are interested in learning more about her.
I’m on the http://www.latimes.com website right now, looking at the “Most Viewed” section:
1. Sarah PALIN style: the issue at hand
2. PALIN: wrong woman, wrong message
3. Sarah PALIN leadership style has admirers and critics
4. John McCain has found a muse in Sarah PALIN
5. On a Southern California beach, young war widows come together to grieve
6. Trig PALIN story is safe ground for the Republican ticket
7. Belarus teen staying with Petaluma family is focus of diplomatic tussle
8. Players, Pete Carroll still consider Ohio State a big threat
9. Another Iraqi casualty of war: Their waistlines
10. Sarah PALIN appeal to working-class women may be limited
6 out of the top 10. Not bad for some silly hick from the sticks.
The number of strikes inside pakistan seem to be increasing and also seems to coincide with ascension of Benazir Bhutto’s husband.
The increasing number of strikes have been publicly attributed to Bush’s desire to get bin laden before he goes.
But I wonder if Benazir Bhutto’s husband –Mr 10% –Asif Ali Zardari — has not had a role. After all, the bad guys killed his wife. Would he not naturally want some retribution.
ie that would mean for the isi — its not going to be business as usual.
“As I understand the Talibans’ motivation, they strive to establish a society guided strictly by Islamic principles. I presume they really do act on that motivation even though they grow and export opium, which we here consider to be a crime. I presume the the Taliban don’t perceive any moral contradiction at all, because Islamic scriptures do not explicitly prohibit growing and exporting opium.”
The original Taliban (going by the story of the birth of the Taliban which is, of course, their own story,) was begun by a local mullah, a religious leader who was sick of a local warlord taking sexual liberties with local youth, particularly boys. According to the story, he recruited a local force and they stormed the warlord’s place and killed him. At the time, Afghanistan was in turmoil, with many such injustices happening in various localities, and the group quickly became a movement.
If we grant this story a certain amount of credence, the Taliban did start out to serve a decent purpose. In Afghanistan, patriotism and religious correctness go hand in hand. A leader is judged not only by his policies but by his apparent piety.
My observations are that some of the Taliban leadership have bought into the expediency of drug funding, but at the local level the name ‘Taliban’ is used by those who really have no connection with any righteous Islamic cause; they are criminals who find it expedient to use the fear and the legitimacy of the Taliban legend to their own purposes.
The early strength of the Taliban was in their homespun rebellion against corruption. One of the major early efforts of the Taliban was to clear the highways of thieves who shook down travellers for ‘bakhsheesh,’ literally, ‘gifts.’ The favor that this won spread and many young men joined the Taliban to free their country of the corruption of the drug warlords and the various types of organized crime, including the local officials.
It is possible that some young men join the Taliban to this day due to some kind of religious fervor, only to be slowly bent in the direction of thuggery and crime. The religious authority granted the Taliban by the local illiterate oral history buffs still brings benefits, but many Afghans who do not benefit from the drug trade see the damage wrought by drugs that never make it out of the country.
I’ve seen a man having what appeared to be a siezure right in the Provincial Police Headquarters compound. When I approached and asked if he was sick, the Afghans nearby gave a dismissive gesture that amounts to “what’s a person to do?” while simply explaining, “Tarak, tarak.”
“Opium, opium.”
Another issue:
“I think, is that it has been possible for the family unit to survive and prosper economically because over the centuries, they have been able to grow enough food to feed themselves, and escape, periodically, the cycle of stealing from each other to make ends meet.
If we could figure out a way for the individual and his family to “make it” economically (without the poppy) in Afghanistan, this might go a long way to forming a ‘nationalist’ culture, which would break the tribal looter and banditry culture cycle.” — E. Nigma
Whoa. While there is a culture in which banditry happens, it is not because Afghans are incapable of supporting families as a whole. Family is a very deeply held value among Afghans, although there are exceptions to the loyalty made at certain times, as when a male dies and his family is occasionally not assumed by another male relative for whatever reason.
While there is pervasive corruption in Afghanistan, the typical Afghan villager is held accountable by his village. Theft on a local level is more rare, by my observation, than in America’s culture where shoplifting is very common.
Banditry exists in Afghanistan for the same reasons that it existed in the American West; the lack of strength of local authority, or the corruption of local authority. This includes complicity. The Police in Afghanistan have a nasty habit of shaking down the travelers who pass through one of their checkpoints.
While the Afghans have some strange practices and family values that include the honor of women while simultaneously selling females or using them to pay debts of honor, I believe from my observations that your assertions are lacking substance. “Tribal looter” sounds primitively substantive, but I did not see groups of people victimizing their neighbors nor sweeping through areas and looting, as this term evokes.
Here’s something that has been helping Afghans develop a national identity; roads.
Everywhere I went, Afghans were Afghans. Pashtuns, Tajiks, Nuristani, and Pashayee all live pretty much the same. As they travel about more freely and especially as they do business with each other, the old walls come down.
The ANA is another institution breaking down barriers and forming a national identity from tribal, local, and familial identities.
“Caedite eos! Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius”
She shoots…she scores
Sarahcuda!
Old Blue – what a warm & fuzzy vote of confidence for the Afghans. However, the bottom line question for this taxpayer is, “Are they changing?” If not, I’m really not sure I want to keep pouring money into a country that enslaves and beats on its female population and then calls it “honor”.
NahnCee: It’s not meant to be warm and fuzzy at all. Afghans are strange to an American; but not THAT strange. Inside, they are driven by surprisingly similar motives to Joe Sixpack.
Here’s what I can tell you. If you quit pouring money into it… carefully and intelligently… then you are definitely condemning the women of Afghanistan’s future. No doubt about that.
Yes, Afghanistan is changing, but very slowly. I spent about two hours last week talking with a civilian who was considering taking a job in Afghanistan with an NGO that has a tremendous capacity to make a difference in the lives of Afghan women. I was briefing her on local conditions and helping her to explore the opportunity for herself.
The military isn’t the only answer, NahnCee. There are many areas that are best addressed by NGO’s or even private companies. There’s also one other influence that is very powerful… the same influence that has suburban kids wearing their pants halfway down their ass in the jailhouse style here in the States; entertainment/media. (Oddly enough, it’s one area where we have a trade surplus.)
It takes time and patience, NahnCee. It also takes something else; guts and action. When you believe in something, do something about it. I had to volunteer and volunteer, and then finally I went outside the boundaries of my command and volunteered with someone else. When I did that I had to sit down with an O-6 and explain to him why he should let me go. I did that because I believe.
My area of contribution is military, which is good for some things, not so good for others.
What good is a principle if you aren’t willing to go and do?
One person usually can’t change the world. A bunch of individual persons, each doing their part, can.
Laubach Literacy used to call it, “Each one, teach one.”
Iraq has strategic value, if only because of geography. Afghanistan is a black hole worthy only of pinging a mujahadeen every few minutes or so.
If the Afghanistan game plan does not include leveraging some kind of useful change in Pakistan (unlikely) then let’s arm the “friendlies” to the teeth and move somewhere with a coastline.
The Thunder Run has linked to this post in the – Web Reconnaissance for 09/08/2008 A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day…so check back often.
Old Blue – I’m thinking to myself that in voting for Sarah Palin, we’ll be getting a female in the White House who can start to bring pressure on these benighted Afghan elders that hasn’t happened thus far.
If Hillary had been a little bit more caring-feminist instead of powerful bitch I would have looked at her with more interest. I think that NOW and Western feminist organizations run by
Gloria Steinem and “progressive liberals” like that have been singularly unsuccessful and averse to addressing the various snake pits in the Middle East, Pakistan and Afghanistan
Condoleeza Rice started fierce and powerful, but then State sucked all the fierce out of her somehow.
I read with interest the book written by the American lady beauty salon proprietor who started a beauty school in Kabul. She seemed to require the protection of a warlord in her bed, and ended up fleeing both the warlord and the country … but then reading between the lines she may have been a flake from the get-go. But at least she tried to help them help themselves.
If the elders in Afghanistan and Pakistan don’t want to deal with Dr. Rice or a female Vice-President then they *can* starve to death. I don’t particularly want to hear that we’re just hurting the women by withdrawing our support, and that the change is happening but it’s “slowly”.
Sometimes the way change happens is to send lots of big mean men in with big mean guns and say “do it or die”, which is what the American federal government did in the South to enforce integration laws. Up until then, integration was happening “slowly” as the natives got used to the idea …
NahnCee: If your main priority is the advancement of women to the exclusion of anything else, then have at it. I would recommend that you proceed forthwith to Afghanistan and begin community organizing at once.
It’s been nice getting to know you, and I admire the ferocity of your convictions and the zeal that you are about to demonstrate. It’s good to see people who will put “skin in the game” instead of just running their mouths. I congratulate you and wish you well.
As for the rest of us, I would counsel that without moving the entire society forward, the women of Afghanistan will languish for many more generations. What I can tell you now is that for the first time in over 30 years, little girls are going to school in many areas of Afghanistan.
Look at our own history. The Afghans are right about where women here were in wilderness areas with fundamentalist groups in the 1800′s. American women have had the vote for less than 100 years, right? Now we demand that the Afghans leap forward with societal attitudes that took generations to establish here.
NahnCee, I so admire your bravery and commitment as you sally forth into Afghanistan to strive for the rights of your sisters in the face of an entrenched male oligarchy.
Courage. The raw courage of your convictions. It’s stirring, really.
Never let ‘em know you’re scared, NahnCee. It only encourages them. Most of the time all the chatter about stoning and whatnot is just that; chatter. Never let ‘em know you’re scared or they might bite you as well. Good luck with that!
“Fletcher Christian: And why the heck should the West in general, and America specifically, help people who hate us?”
“Because it is the moral imperative of the religious tradition which underpins the West”
Not exactly. Let me quote Calvin in reference to the verses you quote and forgiveness in general, “when God commands us to wish well to our enemies, He does not therefore demand that we approve in them what He condemns, but only desires that our minds shall be purified from all hatred.”
He goes on to say that since there may be little hope of reconciliation, we do ourselves no great service by dwelling on our hate and need to just forgive and get on with things. That is not the same as demanding acceptance of or charity to those who harm us – something the Scriptures do not do. Especially when the offender is completely unrepentant.
OT:
from the last thread
slade:
The CDO concept was developed by (convicted) Michael Milken of (now-defunct) Drexel Burnham Lambert. After the securities scandal, the vehicle lay dormant until picked up by the mortgage industry around 1999/2000. I’ll let the economists pick it up from there. CSPAN aired an interview with a journalist who looked into the subject; took more than a few calls from some articulate folks who objected to placing the blame on Fannie/Freddie for exactly the reason I stated. The CDO package – courtesy of Mikey Milken – is flawed.
In addition I heard on Rush today that HUD back in the 90′s under Andrew Cuomo mandated that freddie and fannie mae had to make loans to low income households–ie high risk households.
I have always thought that the religious fevor of the Jihadist leaders is nothing but a scam. They are the Jim and Tammy Bakers of the terrorist jetset.
And as for community organizers who have reaped rewards, let us not forget the sainted Erin Brokovitch. There was never any real evidence that the hated corporation was causing health problems and Erin herself walked away with a few million bucks as part of the settlement.
And I think that even Teresita has mentioned the case of the USN firing range in Puerto Rico. After the outside activists came and put on a show of outrage after the death of an EMPLOYEE there, the Navy shut the place down and moved those operations to Florida – producing even more outrage, since the range was the primary employer in that area.
Old Blue – recognizing patronizing condescension layered with unflinching male chauvenism, I bow to your superior everything and leave you to your efforts. Obviously no one who has never trod the dust of Afghanistan can have an opinion about what’s going on there, nor can anyone who doesn’t possess a penis have any right to condemn those superior creatures (with and without long scraggy beards) who do. Like the song says, “It’s a man’s world”, right?
You’ve also not given me any reason as a taxpayer to refrain from lobbying against any further American funding of efforts to civilize Afghanistan/Pakistan. Which, since I am not there and am here, seems like the logical next step for me to take. Thank you for your time and consideration.
NahnCee: You are once again demonstrating a prediliction towards absolutism and overreaction.
I apologize for the sarcasm, but your chauvinism (yes, yours) blinds you to the progressive nature of changing these attitudes. I would remind you that the big men with guns who went south were Americans. Afghans have never tolerated farenghi with guns telling them they had to change their core values RIGHT NOW.
You also seem to forget that the Afghans will survive either way. We are the ones who had our buildings knocked down by terrorists coordinated from Afghanistan. We are the ones who stand to lose security if we cannot start Afghanistan on a road to progress.
It’s not for them, NahnCee; it’s for US. They just stand to benefit a great deal from it if we do it well. And, eventually, the women of Afghanistan will benefit.
Lobby/vote as you see fit, NahnCee. You may be lobbying against your own security for your feminist principles, which would be the height of chauvinism. One point that I do make is that if you hold beliefs dear to you, please consider actually taking some action.
Don’t get yourself killed doing them; but there ARE things that you can do. I know of an organization that is training Afghan women to care for women’s gynecological and obstetrical needs. Afghanistan has the third highest maternal mortality rate in the world. That organization needs a controller at their facility in Kabul.
Now THAT would make a real difference in the lives of Afghan women. If you are interested, get in touch with me via the email link on my blog.
THAT would be the courage of your convictions, THAT would be “skin in the game,” and THAT would be putting your own feet in the dust of Afghanistan, making history and giving you a unique position from which to discuss these issues.
You are once again demonstrating a prediliction towards absolutism and overreaction.
How about leaving the preaching to your own blog? Holier-than-thou has a bad odor no matter the source.
@Peter Boston:
Iraq has strategic value, if only because of geography. Afghanistan is a black hole worthy only of pinging a mujahadeen every few minutes or so.
I would suggest you are mistaken to dismiss Central Asia as unimportant. The Age of Sail has come and gone, you know, but the Age of Oil and Gas will be with us for a good while.
Central Asia is surrounded by the hottest geopolitical struggles and Afghanistan is a key to Central Asia.
fedya
I do not disagree about the strategic value of Central Asia, or more accurately the Caspian Basin, but I do not agree that basing in Afghanistan is the key to exerting influence in the region. If anything Afghanistan is a liability because of the constant force protection requirements. It’s landlocked between unreliable and hostile powers, and adjacent to the world’s premiere jihadi breeding ground.
Peterike said…
“An interesting thing about a lot of O’s “slips,” like the 57 states, is that he doesn’t seem to hear himself talk.
For example, I slip often enough when I speak — and I speak in public a fair amount — but the moment the words leave my mouth I realize it and correct the mistake. I might well have said 57 states myself, but I would have heard it, back-tracked, probably made a joke about it, and moved on. Obama just plowed ahead.
He was doing the same thing here. Stephanopolous corrected him. Obama was just moving right along.
Apparently, nothing he heard sounded strange to his own ears.
I just find this odd.
Hopefully he’s not negotiating with Putin some day without somebody around to correct him.”
—
A report I read said
“It was immediately corrected”
It did NOT mention that George is the one who “corrected” him.
@Peter Boston:
basing in Afghanistan is the key to exerting influence in the region.
You misquote me. I used the article “a” to modify “key”. I also did not use the word “basing”. Given the weaknesses of alternatives we have for a presence in the region, it does seem to me that Afghanistan is, if anything, a trap we can’t afford not to get caught in. So, fight to win, right?
Either Central Asia will be open to the world or it will be locked up via Persian, Chinese and Russian competition. Central Asia includes Afghanistan. An open Central Asia is essential to an open Black Sea and Caucasus region. As goes the Black Sea, so goes our weenie-buddies in Far-Western Europe. Europe: another trap we can’t afford not to get caught in.
@Peter Boston:
“Iraq has strategic value, if only because of geography. Afghanistan is a black hole worthy only of pinging a mujahadeen every few minutes or so.
If the Afghanistan game plan does not include leveraging some kind of useful change in Pakistan (unlikely) then let’s arm the “friendlies” to the teeth and move somewhere with a coastline.”
When I read your first statement, I realized that you were a crackpot and that engaging you over your remark was a complete waste of time.
“If anything Afghanistan is a liability because of the constant force protection requirements. It’s landlocked between unreliable and hostile powers, and adjacent to the world’s premiere jihadi breeding ground.”
THAT’S the whole point, Peter. You see, while I am very concerned for the Afghan people, the basic reason for our presence there was not for THEIR good, but for OURS.
WE are the ones who want to be free from terrorism. The premier terrorist breeding ground is adjacent now; before it was in Afghanistan itself.
Call that preaching if you will. And if you don’t like my blog, don’t read it. I say what I feel to be true there; so if how I feel about what I see here threatens you, I don’t care.
It’s not about exerting influence in the region. We are not an empire. It is about denying terrorists the breeding ground and training grounds and in order to do that, understanding what makes them tick is helpful, which is what this thread is about.
That’s what I addressed with my first post, and all the single-issue stuff about “if they don’t stop abusing their women we should just let them starve” stuff is a distraction from protecting OUR national security.
It’s not about influence, it’s not about women’s rights, and it’s not about oil or gas or coal or anything else. All those things will eventually be affected, but the key issue is…
TERRORISM; its causes, conditions, and stamping it out from where it starts.
A strong, democratic, stable Afghanistan does not provide a home for terrorism. An economically successful Afghanistan destroys the root audience for those like Osama and the Taliban; and a literate, open Afghanistan paves the way for the progression of women’s rights.
But that’s not our primary goal. Our primary goal is no more stuff what goes boom on OUR soil.
How’s that for some preaching, Peter?
Old Blue
Stick it. Don’t worry. I have not read your blog and you can be assured that I never will.
@Old Blue:
AMEN, preacher! (‘scuse me for butting in)
fedya
I think we should fulfill our commitments in Afghanistan as best we are able, but I have very little confidence that any Afghan central government could withstand the constant and inexhaustible flow of jihadi tribesmen from Pakistan.
I also do not believe that we can project power from Afghanistan for so long as our primary concern is force protection.
Thanks. Maybe you can use the extra time figuring out how to quit thinking like an imperialist determining how to dominate the world; where to base your troops to exert influence; and think about how little people’s problems in crappy little landlocked countries become our problems over here when skyscrapers start getting knocked down in the midst of our own cities.
Or you can just go back to playing Risk or Stratego or whatever it was that you were doing.
fedya: There are a lot of “jihadi tribesmen” in Pakistan, but they only seemingly inexaustible. I disagree with you on the point of the central government, but they are nowhere near where they need to be.
You are directly on target with the force pro comment. Counterinsurgency 101: Galula; “The safer you try to make yourself the less secure you are.”
Every major country seeks to expand it sphere of influence. Has it ever been otherwise? Surely, a reasonably intelligent person could distinguish between imperialism and common statecraft.
During the original Afghan campaign Pashtun tribal leaders in Pakistan sent about 10,000 of their young men to fight in Afghanistan. Barely a handful returned. Tribal leaders were vocal in their displeasure that their young men had been used as cannon fodder to cover the escape of AQ and Taliban fighters.
I thought at the time that the Pashtun had been chastened by the experience. I underestimated the capacity of these people to absorb punishment. If anything the jihadi movement is now stronger in the Tribal Areas than it was 7 years ago.
Absent the willingness to operate inside Pakistan with a major force, and literally exterminate the Pashtun, we can reasonably anticipate decades of combat in Afghanistan albeit at varying intensity. Russia’s first Chechnya war lasted 60 years. If that’s what it takes to fulfill our commitment then so be it, but that is something far different than using Afghanistan to expand our influence in the region.
@Peter Boston
We can’t exterminate the Pashtun in Afghanistan, silly. A lot if not most of the Pashtun live in Afghanistan.
Are you advocating genocide?
Perhaps this is where Old Blue and a couple of the others on this site have a leg up on you. A new phrase has come from the Iraq War and its aftermath. “Counter-insurgency is a thinking mans’s sport.”
It’s more efficient, cheaper, and far less traumatising for the normal people in an area of interest to us.
Mao said “you are part of the problem or the solution”. Your attitude and frustration here because you do not get it is part of the problem.
As you might gather COIN is my bag though I am no longer a practitioner.
One thing you find when you actually get your boots on the ground is that it is smart and appropriate to stop chatter mind and just be there in the moment so you can see things like they really are.
Old Blue’s comments about Afghanis are spot on.
Oops!
I meant we can’t exterminate the Pashtun in Pakistan because most of them live in Afghanisatn.
Bob Murphy
You used a lot of words but you did not say very much. Which part of “Absent the willingness” did you not understand?
My position is that Iraq is a strategic necessity and Afghanistan a strategic liability for the United States because of the reasons stated previously. I have not seen anything that should disabuse me of that position.
You did not respond to my query about whether you, in your mental projection, were advocating genocide, Peter.
It should have been obvious from my comment about the expectation of decades of combat. If not A then B. Did I suddenly land on the Daily Kos site?
@Peter
You may remember the reason why we took action against Afghanistan after September 11.
We rolled those dickheads and we have defeated them in Iraq as well.
I appreciate your concerns about Afghanistan being landlocked and they are very real concerns.
But, the tribal areas of Pakistan are now the new Afghanistan, the base for the Taliban and Al Qaeda mongrels we haven’t killed yet.
How are we even going to get close to them if we pull out of Afghanistan?
We have won two battles in the Long War but Pakistan is next.
If we leave the Jihadis an uncontested base from which to operate, the US will be nuked within 5 years and it will be multiple cities simulataneously.
You’re in a war, Peter. Get used to it.
@Peter
You used a lot of words but you did not say very much. Which part of “Absent the willingness” did you not understand?
I used few words, and the message was succinct and concise.
You do not want to get it because it does not fit your pre-conceived notion about the reality of Afghanistan/Pakistan etc.
Those people are not intrinsically our enemies. There is a strong pro-American and pro-modern subtext in every Arab and every muslim I have met in my travels. You just have to be there and dealing with them to experience the reality of that.
It’s rather similar to the subtext of the eastern european communist apparatchiks and border guards when I used to drive longhaul trucks through the old Comecon down to Istanbul back in the 80s (cheaper diesel fuel there than transiting W Germany, Austria etc).
In the case of Afghanistan the Russian invasion deeply traumatised them. Before that the hippy hordes on the way through usually had a great time there due in large part to the incredible hospitality of the Afghanis.
I have been careful to say that the US should fulfill its commitments in Afghanistan, even if takes decades of combat. How that could possibly get morphed into a witdrawal is beyond my comprehension.
My concern would be not that we commit too lightly in Afghanistan but that we commit too much. The greater the troop level the longer the tail, the more vulnerable we become to the whim of unfriendly and hostile neighbors.
Every combat brigade in Afghanistan is one less that could be used elsewhere. I do not profess to know what the ideal number of combat brigades would be but were I an enemy of the USA I would want to see as many as possible locked up far away from the ocean.
Bob Murphy wrote:
“If we leave the Jihadis an uncontested base from which to operate, the US will be nuked within 5 years and it will be multiple cities simulataneously.”
That’s a very remarkable claim. Nuking 5 cities simultaneously would be some trick, even with an uncontested base. On what do you base that claim?
@Peter Boston:
Every major country seeks to expand it sphere of influence. Has it ever been otherwise? Surely, a reasonably intelligent person could distinguish between imperialism and common statecraft.
Pertinent, fer sure. And many of us here are intensely suspicious of “Realists” and “Statecraft” proponents for fear they will entangle us in the “logic” of Imperialism.
Whatever, may I suggest the crack that started these unfortunately testy exchanges with you was this: “Afghanistan is a black hole worthy only of pinging a mujahadeen every few minutes or so.”
Now that sounded neither logical nor humane to my simple ears. It sounded imperious and dismissive. When Americans feel they can afford to be thusly reckless in their speech, I feel threatened by the lack of morale among us that reveals.
You’re not the only one here to snap off foolish and heartless comments of value to no one but our enemies. Why, I have no doubt done so myself! My bad (even if they were aimed at Euro-weenies).
New York’s renaissance came about from fixing up broken windows and broken neighborhoods, pumping lipstick on the nice ones came later. Could roughly the same rule apply in Central Asia?
Reading the back n’ forth tween NahnCee and Old Blue…recalling that before I have been able to heal infected wounds, I have had to clean them out first. Worst one was at OCS in ’72; got some pointers from the corpsman on treating it.
Which is to say that the $ spent in Afghanistan to kill the f-heads is $ well spent and that progress for women there cannot win out until the f-heads have their “bullet in the brainpan” moments. I don’t care if we ever catch bin Hidin and the genocidal Egyptian dwarf, killing their klowns and all who would be their klowns is more important…bin Hidin and the genocidal dwarf are the black lights in our klown-zapper.
I’ve written here before I will go to my grave with the image of that poor woman in a burkha leaning away from the barrel of that klown’s rifle in an Afghan soccer stadium with cheering Taliban around.
Klowns wherever you are, it’s a good thing you love death…we can bring it industrial and well co-ordinated, which is why you hide, like the weak you are.
Peter,
My claim of multiple nukes was based on some AQ chatter from a couple of years ago.
The underlying notion was that multiple detonations would have a sporting chance of bringing the whole US system down and destroy its financial base to the point where it could not project power anywhere else in the world, and perhaps a social implosion or disintegration.
Whereas nuking one US city might turn the entire Middle East into a shooting gallery.
I take all that chatter and notions floated by ratbags and wannabes with a large grain of salt.
But from a military point of view, it makes sense.
It would be a huge shock to American society. And a financial disaster from which the US would take many years to recover.
I think the actual notion was for six nukes. But it’s the thought and the logic that I found interesting.
And Peter you did say, “let’s arm the friendlies to the teeth and move somewhere with a coastline”.
Perhaps you meant we should take up residence in the nearest Afghani navy base?
Nahncee, dear
I was surprised at your vehement response to Old Blue comments about Afghani society.
I thought I’d let it ride for awhile given my respect for your usual insights which I quite enjoy.
I think he is right. I do not think he exhibited any unflinching male chauvinism at all (of course that might be my problem).
Almost everyone here strongly backs individual freedom, civil rights, limitations on government power, and the notion that our rights come from God (or Tao if you prefer).
If one accepts those basic premises then one cannot possibly advocate slavery or sexism per se.
But it is a matter of priorities if we want to bring about an end to slavery and second class citizenship in this world.
I’d say that mere existence of a nation and a system that could well put someone like Sarah Palin in a position of major responsibility is a strong statement to the Third World.
I think she will have an earth shaking impact on people’s perceptions of woman’s place in many parts of the world if she gets elected.
But sometimes we have to proceed a step at a time when we try to influence other societies. Otherwise we are seen as condescending and imperialistic. Once that happens it just gets into action/reaction and becomes far more problematic.
Getting Afghani girls into schools is a great first step.
I personally think we should have demanded an equal rights plank in the new Afghani constitution as a sleeper, a bit like “all men are created equal” one in a nascent country that had slavery at the time.
Another good step would be micro-loans to Afghani women to start busineses, and that sort of thing.
More broadly I think we should probably tie foreign aid in to a country’s at least nominal adherence to the UN declaration of human rights. The neat thing about doing that would be that it would abrogate some basic tenets of Islam that we find odious.
The US cannot afford to emancipate women in a society where none of the ground work has been done.
We get in enough trouble, incur enough casualties, and spend enough money just to deny our Jihadi enemies bases from which to launch attacks on the western world.
So it seems to me more rational that we move to liberate people one step at a time.
This thread has been the closest thing to a flame war I have seen yet on BC.
@ Old Blue:
I appreciate what you are trying to do and what you are saying. I just wonder if all the decent efforts of men (and women) like you can actually change the tribal culture of Afghanistan. Even after a generation passes, I wonder if the changes will endure; and not that it isn’t worth trying.
What I meant by the ‘culture of looting’, was the willingness to steal or make war, or grow poppies for the ‘tribe’ (extended family), without consequence for the nation as a whole. Yes, the family can be strong, but they are embedded within the tribe. Can they stand by themselves without the tribe? Can the rule of law make them recognize the primacy of the nation-state and resist the ad-hoc moral relativism of the tribe?
That is the test, IMHO. As long as the family lives within the protection and beneficience of the tribal entity, tribal practices will continue. We (meaning you and others serving) from the West, might try to teach them a better way, but after you leave someday, will the lesson stick, or will they revert to the way they have survived for millenia? I (and you) hope for the first, but I fear for the second answer.
Even before Islam, that was the way it was. I don’t think Islam changed the Afghans much; rather, the Afghans modified Islam to suit their culture. A friend of mine who served in Iraq told me about the fatefulness of Iraqi (Arabic) society; “Inshallah”, ‘as Allah wills’. He feared there was only so much we could expect of the Iraqis in a generation of time.
Is there such a term of fatefullness in Afghanistan (Pushto or Urdu), and do you hear it widely used?
Just curious. Thanks for what you are doing.
Yeah, money. But is was Bush who chose to leave Afghanistan’s Pushtun heroin industry intact even though Taliban’s Summer offensive is financed by same.
There wasn’t a single heroin factory in Afghanistan, prior to 2002. Blame Bush.
E. Nigma: Thanks for the thoughts. Oddly enough, we found that very often the primary identity was the locality rather than the tribe. People were very often identified by what valley they were from and then by their tribe. One of the benefits of the elder system was that there was a local form of justice. It serves the same purpose as a mayor’s court here in a small local municipality.
Afghans, while often ill-educated, are often quick learners. If what you show them works, they will incorporate it… but it will have a distinctly Afghan flavor. If what you teach them is more clumsy or does not work well, they will revert.
The local Jirga was very effective at local justice; but local justice was often primitive by our standards. It was very effective for a lot of the situations that they encountered, though. I could go into greater detail, but it very often kept people out of the formal justice system, avoiding incarcerations for offenses that we would view as not worth incarceration.
Yes, the Afghans said, “Inshallah,” and it meant the same thing. They sometimes used it as an excuse, but not as often as the Iraqis, from what little I know about them. It was also not too difficult to disabuse an Afghan of its excusatory powers in a specific instance. It was often said as part of a wish, like we would say, “God willing.” As in, “See you next week, God willing.”
This was considered extremely polite. It was also well-received if they explained what they were going to do and you wished them success with an, “Inshallah” on the end of it. Expressions of religious respect were woven into daily life there to an extent that we are not comfortable with due to our pluralism. We are afraid to offend someone with religiosity, whereas Afghans consider it polite or even de rigueur.
The Afghans are not as fatalistic as the Iraqis, I think; but it is a harsh life, and so there is a fatalistic streak.
I hope that I addressed what you were asking about.
Perhaps I was a bit touchy with NahnCee earlier.
Old Blue: I would guesstimate that the tribal areas of the Pakistan/Afghanistan borders will require garrissoning/patrolling for a generation or more.
When producing for a living starts better than raiding for a living, things will start to change. And when the latter produces nothing but increased poverty, change fast.
Unlike where the Northern Alliance etc held sway, the tribal areas strike me as being rather analgous to our old Plains Indians problem.
At any rate, Afghanistan can no longer be used
as a “privileged sanctuary” and staging area
for organized terrorist groups. That is good enough for me. To carry my above analogy a step farther, the equivalent of Commancheros
can no longer operate there in the unmolested fashion they must have.
NAHN CEE; those socieities that glorify stealing are the ones that regard women as chattel. Those with a work ethic are amenable
to the equality concept. Again, a work ethic comes about once it starts paying better than stealing.
I know I am speaking in “glittering generalities”. However I have no knowledge of any place where these precepts were not in play.
Haqqani’s main madrassa hit in North Waziristan attack
AFGHANISTAN: The Land Of A Thousand Scams
Seems to me the flame war is over the worthiness of the Afghan people for the sacrifices Americans have made for them, and whether or not the beneficiaries of American sacrifices have displayed the appropriate gratitude and eagerness to quit being what they are and start being what some of us think they ought to be.
“Crooked politics and terrorism have long clothed themselves in sanctimony. In fact, a cynic might argue that a good rule of thumb for judging movements is to conclude that the more high minded a cause pretends to be, the more sordid are its actual motives.”
Pandit Nehru said pretty much the same:
“The whiter the hat, the blacker the heart.”
Mohammed Reza Pahlavi, Shah of Persia, 1941 – 1979. The “King of Kings” and “Sun of the Aryans”.
No. The Shah does not belong in this list. These are hereditary titles, not the symptoms of an over-inflated ego.
The Big Lie Still Works
The criminal or the neighborhood petty tryant all want the same thing, power. The criminal wants the power to have others submit to him and pay him. The criminal wants money but the crimial gangs want power to get money.
The neighborhood tryant wants power to enforce their opinion of what is right on others. Homeowners Associations are famous for this. Neither is motivated by religion. Religion is ofter the tool, not the reason.
The rest of us just don’t want others to have power over us.
Dave: Let me take these sequentially:
“I would guesstimate that the tribal areas of the Pakistan/Afghanistan borders will require garrissoning/patrolling for a generation or more.”
You are probably correct. The goal is to get the Afghan government to be capable of and motivated to take care of their own borders.
“When producing for a living starts better than raiding for a living, things will start to change. And when the latter produces nothing but increased poverty, change fast.”
Where is this raiding economy? Where did people get the idea that Afghans are like Tuskan raiders from Star Wars? That is not anything like what I saw at all. If it exists, it exists in a part of Afghanistan that I didn’t see. The Kuchis are not even raiders. They are nomads who primarily herd livestock.
“At any rate, Afghanistan can no longer be used
as a “privileged sanctuary” and staging area
for organized terrorist groups. That is good enough for me. To carry my above analogy a step farther, the equivalent of Commancheros
can no longer operate there in the unmolested fashion they must have.”
You are right about the first part, but the second part should be clarified; the “commancheros” are the ACM groups like the Taliban, the HiG, and Jaish. Typical Afghans do not behave like commancheros at all. Only the ACM skulk around, sometimes staying in their home range, sometimes they would rely on the hospitality of the locals for their shelter and food. The strictly criminal elements didn’t seem to operate that way much, because their support from the people would have to be strictly through intimidation. They moved from one criminal cell to another, rather than just showing up somewhere and asking/demanding food and/or shelter.
We will also work to increase the involvement of Afghan tribes.
Sounds like President Bush wants to use Apaches to catch Apaches.
I cannot access your post from this location, but I will toss this out there…
What the T E Lawrence figured out, and the British figured out in Malaya, is to figure out how indigenous forces can contribute to their own security. That includes their reasons for wanting to, what they are capable of, how they operate, and how they can cooperate.
Treating the indigenous leaders as partners and their forces with respect is another challenge for our conventional forces, who have an inbred sense of superiority that is inculcated while instilling a sense of elite esprit d’ corps.
The challenge of developing that spirit within a unit while still having respect for other forces is something that separates the conventional forces from the “quiet professionals” of the special operations forces. Why can we not move towards that “quiet professional” mode as a model for Big Army?
Can it even be done? Can the average grunt survive if he can’t look down on the rest of the world?
There are so many benefits to having such esprit, but the downside was very apparent to me as I operated with my Afghans, who were not the least bit in doubt as to the feelings of the elite airborne troops that they were supposedly operating “with.” Disrespect is a language all its own.
Partnering with indigenous groups who have motivation and ability to counter the ACM in Afghanistan can be very beneficial. One must be careful, however, not to simply be used as a hammer that one group uses to get the upper hand on another so that they can simply take over the turf or get a fly out of their own ointment.
We must avoid partnering with groups whose overriding goal is to overthrow the IRoA and take it over for themselves.
Bob Murphy: My claim of multiple nukes
I know the jihadis were chattering about that, but the logistics are formidable. Unless Russkiye would be really that deranged that they would supply some suitcase nukes to Iran that would try (actively) to get them to US to be ready.
Tere is another scenario that has a better chance of success. If you have enough radioactive material, you could create dirty bombs at some strategic locations, like major routes. Select 6 most important highways close to major cities and detonate dirty bombs at the same time. Not much physical damage, but the initial panic and consecleanup costs would, no dout, have serious economic consequences.
Damn! Musta hit enter before having a chance to go through corrections and typos. Preview would be my friend.
Oh, an addendum. The dirty bomb scenario was discussed in some jihadi forums as a more doable alternative to nuke booms.
It was not that long ago that one could buy an old small tactical nuke warhead in Bulgaria, for about $1000. As a nuke it was unusable because it was old and degraded, but still quite useful for a dirty bomb.
Old Blue: When I said commancheros, the ACM groups were exactly what I had in mind.
My comments about “raiding”: There are those that raid. And when they universally find out that they have raided Northfield MN or
Coffeyville KS. raiding ceases to look attractive. I daresay that the tribal areas contain a few people who have not learned that lesson yet. Are these indentifiable as tribes, as members of ACM or just as ad hoc groups? I have no way of knowing that and do remember that I did say I was speaking in glittering generalities.
The fact that these elements do exist is why I estimated the need for long-term garrisoning and patrolling.
Enough, already. Let us move on to a new thread.