And so, despite the all the naysayers and second-guessers, the lawyers in the Rifqa Bary case have negotiated a reasonable and potentially life-saving settlement which will allow Rifqa to remain in state custody until she becomes 18 (which will happen in August), at which time she herself will decide whether or not she wishes to be reunited with her family.
Rifqa Bary with her lawyers
According to the Columbus-Dispatch, Rifqa has admitted that she’d been “unruly” when she’d fled her home, and the “family will try to resolve their issues with counseling.” In a statement read by Rifqa’s attorneys, ‘both she and her parents said they loved each other and believe counseling is the best route.”
Ahem. The family’s honor has now been slightly salvaged by Rifqa’s open admission (clearly, an admission that had been required) that she’d been…”unruly.”
Is it “unruly” to choose one’s own God, or to try and save one’s own life? I’m just asking. In any event, in grand American tradition, “counseling” is seen as an all-purpose, face-saving panacea, a way of avoiding a more superficial or harsher rule of law—a way of dealing with problems that are far beyond (or beneath) a judge’s purview. Thus, “The case plan for Rifqa and her parents says they should talk about their respective religions and visit and communicate regularly.”
Had there been no settlement, I would have testified as an expert witness in this case. Luckily, thanks to the good lawyering involved, my testimony was not required.
And so, the Bary family (the teenager and her parents) will now enter counseling—always a dicey proposition in my opinion; girls and women are especially vulnerable to false promises of happy endings and true love. Many grown, battered women, report how well their sociopathic batterers bond with their counselors, and how their own anxieties and justified paranoia is minimized, scorned. Ultimately, these women may not only be diagnosed as “crazy,” they may also lose their children, their homes, even their lives—right under their counselor’s nose.
One can only hope that the counselor in the Bary case will know a great deal about the nature of honor killings and the fate of apostates in Islam.
For example, in the tragic case of Toronto’s Aqsa Parvez, the counselors at the shelter for battered women to which she fled did not understand the dynamics involved in an honor killing family and, when Aqsa’s mother called to say she missed her, they simply allowed Aqsa to go; Aqsa went home and was promptly killed by her father and brother. Aqsa’s crime? She did not want to wear hijab.
Speaking of honor killings and what counselors do and don’t understand: I am about to publish a new study about honor killings (due out in the next issue of Middle East Quarterly) in which I studied 230 honor killing victims on five continents. Therefore, I am not at all surprised by the “surprising” news coming out of Finland concerning a potentially “new” kind of victim.
Native Finnish women who marry “immigrant” men (the article simply will not use the word “Muslim”) have begun to flee for their lives to avoid being honor-killed—but not only by their husbands, but by their husbands’ family, even by his entire clan. One Finnish woman who married into an “immigrant” family says:
“They’ve threatened to kidnap my children, and my husband has repeatedly threatened to kill me. He says nobody can stop them, that horrible things happen, and he doesn’t even have to do them himself, that revenge will come from the clan…. The Multicultural Women’s Association Monika, which runs a safe house for immigrant women and their children, says that more and more Finnish women are turning to them when Finnish authorities fail to understand the threat of honour violence.” According to Nasima Razmyar, Monika’s Project Manager:
“You can have 200 people involved in honour-related violence, that is, the entire extended family. And not just the family in Finland, but relatives abroad and back in the home country. In general, our laws need to understand much better this type of group threat…One problem is that Finnish authorities in social services and on the police force treat honour violence just like any other case of domestic violence. They don’t take into account the fact that instead of a dispute between two individuals, honour violence pits a single woman against the wrath of a large group of people.”
One hopes and prays that the counselor assigned to the Bary family understands the nature of honor killings. They can certainly read my first study, which appeared in Middle East Quarterly. And, I will gladly send him or her my new study as soon as it is published.
P.S. Tundra Tabloids reports that Finnish state news had pulled the article about honor-related violence in Finland but restored it recently in a more sanitized form. Here’s what was deleted from the original article:
“Among immigrants honor violence has occurred in Finland for many years.” “She said that her marriage was hell, but no one believed her.” “The woman is the man’s property and thus can assault the woman however he pleases, if the woman refuses to obey the rules.”
“Honor violence has been increasing in recent years in Finland, when unmarried young women immigrants from a foreign culture struggle under the pressure. They may be forced to marry and be prohibited from socializing with Finns.”
“We’re currently unable to secure and protect the lives of people in the way that the authorities should do, Hukkanen says.”
Once again, I wish to acknowledge Esther’s fine work at IslaminEurope.blogspot.com
Children are human beings. They are aware of both their needs and their fears. They are the ones who should decide the issue in custody cases.
As for 17-year-olds, one is being technical when one calls them “children.”
As for the censorship imposed by the Finnish state news, it is a threat to everybody in Finland, not merely to the potential victims of honor murders. Publicity–freedom of the press–protects everybody. Openness is the way we can begin to learn about problems and then proceed to deal with them.
I would much rather see this child be given a new identity.
Does Rifqa understand that the legal system will not and cannot protect her from her family’s values or the values of her counselor? Witness protection program might keep her alive.
I do not see how a counselor can have adequate knowledge and skills to help this family. I am deeply concerned for the safety of this young vulnerable woman. Tragically she will remain at risk her entire life. Any clan or parent that would threaten to kill her can never be trusted. Like sexual predators with high rates of relapse, such individuals can not be helped because they don’t want to be helped. It is their ingrained belief – it is murderous rage disguised as grievance, i.e. having sullied male honor.
More Liberal Psychosis. Most adults in the West have grown up in total peace, plenty, fairness, opportunity and safety.
They have NO IDEA of the true terror and barbarity that is normal in history and still exists in most of the world and now, thanks to Political Correctness, here in the United States as well.
Fundamentalist Islam is not a religion but a politicaly based death cult. If it is practiced as it is taught, it is genocidal and violates the UN’s own guidlelines against genocide.
In the near future America will pay a fearful price for this childish and cowardly unwillingness to accept the brutal reality of political Islam.
It is quite likely hundreds of thousands if not millions will die. It could mean, in the case of an EMP attack, the complete defeat and destruction of America. Get ready.
This is all wonderful….
But .. just one nagging question…
What happens if (G-d forbid), Rifqua is killed…. or.. found to be the ‘victim’ of an accident?
What do we do then?
The nagging question asked above provokes vengeful emotions in me. I pray that Rifqa moves to the western US and changes her name to Rita Barton or some such. She loves her parents, but I have strong doubts they reciprocate.
Nancy Kobrin has hit the nail on the head. I have worked in the Middle East and am aware of honour killings. This young woman needs to be put into a witness protection programme. To return her to her family is like taking a lamb to the slaughter house.
I was involved in an honour killing in Northern Canada where a 17 yrs old girl was brutally gang raped and murdered in such a fashion that her face was unrecognisable to her mother.
The initial incident was almost 200 yrs previously between males in the family. This brewed and fermented within a warring tribal instinct and came to its final conclusion in the death of the youngster.
This young girl is in great danger and needs to be protected.
Phyllis, as you well know, most first responders and other front-line people in the West know very little about dishonor crimes. . .or even have a grasp of intercultural differences. I think Rifqa Bary is still at high risk. Hope I’m wrong, though.
Ellen Sheeley
No competant lawyer for the young woman could have come out with a different ‘final decision’. It was the ‘interiim order’ of the court that had Rifka live outside the home until the ‘final order’ that was important.
A 1. Rifka is approaching age 18 and that means the case will be over on that date because she will be a legal adult.
2. Family Court moves very, very slowly. Even the simplist matters move at a glacial pace.
3. This case could not come to a court decision before she rewached age 18. That is the good part.
B. The outstanding part is that Rifka’s concerns were given sufficient credibility and legitimacy that the interim order of the court [where she lives until the case is decided with a final order] that Rifka was allowed to live outside the family home.
That is a major triumph for the young woman and is based on some good work by the judge and the lawyer.
Yes, unfortunately, the Witness Protection Program is the only way to go, not only for Rifqua, but for any former muslim. Counseling only works if you want to “work the program,” and no muslim will ever want to do that sort of work. As for Finnish censorship, all I can say is that those people spent too much time living next to the USSR. And. Phyllis, I wish you’d been able to testify anyway.
I think Rifqa will be OK, and hope so. I pray to the Mother for her well-being.
I am very glad that the judge saw the light. That’s all she needs for now, to wait till she is 18, then if she returns to Florida or decides for any other place in the US, the parents cannot lift a finger. Many Christians will help her.
I suspect the family is up to no good. Don’t like the father’s face, not even a little bit. If they would have taken her back to Sri Lanka, that’s it. Of course that statement of unruliness is a court face-saving agreement, something probably required by the judge to justify the wait.
One win for truth and light.
They will try to kill her after a) she turns 18 and/or b) they are convinced she will never re-convert. For this reason she should NOT change her name and hide. She should move to a place, like Florida, where she can get a concealed-carry permit (sorry Phyllis, absolutely NOT New York) and surround herself with good friends who understand her situation fully. She should stay engaged with the media. And she must stay on guard forever. But in my mind – everyone must make up their own mind – I’d prefer this to being in a program with a questionable success rate, always wondering if they know who I am and if they’re coming, or not. I would want to be able to see them coming and I would want them to know that I am watching them. And I would watch them. Carefully. Even illegally. I’d know what color their … well … that’s me.
If there was a God (…), Mothers like Aqsa Parvez’s won’t never get pregnant. [No Comment about the Father(s), neither the Brother(s): I read on MEMRI.org that some Girls are killed for a matter of ... Inheritage.]
Who knows why, the Feminine is always/often seen as a/the Problem? Why don’t Men/Males analyze themselves (maybe they have/are a/the Problem)? Oh yes, they do so according to their “sacred” Book(s), where it is stated that “they are Superior – Period”.
***
Western Societies are afraid to publically talk about Islamic Treatement of Women: they’ll be soon accused of Racism!
But Authorities are filled with Files which would discourage any Woman to have a Relation with an Islamic Man (and therefore his Community). They are kept Hiding.
At the Opposite, Multiculturalist and Marxist Education encourages in Westerners the Love for Others – which drives many Women (and Men) to positively see Cross-cultural Relations. When those Women are (harshly) abused, they get to know about the above mentioned Files, but it is too late.
Islamic Community considers an abused Woman as “self-responsible and self-guilty. Period”.
Western Leftists will care more about the “Cultural Difference” of the Foreigner (Islamic Man and Community), than the abused (Western) Woman [in Case it is a killed Islamic Woman, they'll care more about the survived Islamic Community, than the Victim.]
Western Rightist (being aware of Islam-ism) will think/say that the Western Woman was silly, and that she had to avoid such a Relation! “Everyone knows” that Islamic Men mistreat Women.
In both Cases the abused Woman feels discouraged to speak out, and she feels abandoned and ashamed (both Islam-ism, Left-ism and Right-ism won at her Expenses).
***
The only Solution is to criminalize Islam-ism and its Mafious (Criminal) System.
I don’t know about the rest of you all, but having had many acquaintances on the left, I’ve been seeing this sort of crap since the late 70′s.
White girls of various backgrounds marrying mohammedans and barely getting away with their lives — almost all losing all their children to the mohammedans overseas.
I suppose I should have spoken up sooner. But I’ve always assumed that nobody would give a damn until it got realy bad. I have a sense that I was right and that is how it’s working out.
And no. Counseling will not make a single damn bit of difference to anybody involved.
I’m taking bets on this, any odds, cash!
The ONLY possible effect that “counseling” might have would be to seduce the poor young woman involved to drop her defenses to some degree and thus make her more vulnerable to her rapacious and brutal family.
That’s it.
I’m taking bets on that too.
Even assuming good and pure motives on the part of the counselor (there’s a stretch for you) the entire analytic method of psychotherapy as currently practiced is completely inadequate to even understand the mohammedan mindset — forget about the jihaddi mindset.
The analytic model is such that the questions that will get asked will produce answers that are irrelevant to the problem, or worse than irrelevant.
And I promise you, little Rifqa will not benefit by learning what that “father” of hers has lurking in the muck of his sub-conscious mind.
And if he gets any more “open” about his feelings she’s dead for sure.
The world of western psychology, an infant science at best, is not ready for the encounter with the truly foreign and alien.
Not sure?
How many books by people specializing in psychology, on the subject of child abuse, sexual life and family life in the mohammedan cultures have made it into print and distribution even here in America?
Any?
If any made it at all (I don’t know of one) how widely do you figure it might have been read?
So, now I have some simple questions for you.
Wouldn’t the murder of young women by their family hold amazing revelations for a psychologist about the inner nature of family connections? I mean, how is that even psychologically possible to people who pass for normal out in the town square?
Doesn’t a culture that habitually mutilates the genitalia of its women strike you as a fascinating pathology for psychologists to study?
Wouldn’t it be an amazingly fruitful field of investigation of the relation between social norms and the limits of relationship and conscience?
Wouldn’t it be a treasure trove of data about individuation and the relation between love and cruelty?
Wouldn’t it make a slam-bam, crackerjack, career making doctoral thesis?
Is anything I’ve just written non-obvious in some way?
Has anything like that happened? Anywhere?
Nah.
Counseling? Horse feathers!
I really don’t see a “counselor” helping Rifqa.
Might help the court system save face in some weird way.
Might help her dad get a second crack at her.
But I really don’t see it helping Rifqa.
I will add that what Rifqa really needs is rough men ready to do violence on her behalf.
That will make a difference.
And I’m quite sure already has.
Joeblough, you are the first person I’ve come across who really gets the subconscious mindset of our sanitized culture. The pathology of honor killing is not a pathology to those who do it–but political correctness requires that we not see/say/study that. I would add to your questions that our sanitized political culture itself is ripe to study.
Without more knowledge, the (blind) law and counselors just lead the innocent to the blind.
All the counseling in the world will never change the Islamic tradition of honor killing. Indeed, the more non Moslems become aware of the honor killing phenomenon, the more they will realize that Islam is one of the most dangerous set of beliefs in the history of the world. Thus the more Moslem men murder their wives, mothers, daughters, nieces, female cousins, etc, the more they will want to prevent Moslems from living anywhere near them. It might even have the positive effect of Western countries enacting laws which would result in the forced expulsion of the Moslems who do live in their non Moslem countries. For my part, the fewer Moslems the better and the safer we all are!
21. jb:
Thanks.
The science of psychology has a looong way to go before it can account for much of even the most simple, ordinary and healthy behaviors. To say nothing of how we think or evaluate complex choices.
It cannot yet account for dreams or memory. Basic issues? You bet. Mysteries still? Yup.
The whole culture of “therapy” and “counseling” is irretrievably utopian and naive in it’s outlook and methods. Candy-ass nursery school stuff. Unfit to deal with ordinary middle-class shop-lifters in our own culture, much less thugs and gangsters.
And truly foreign cultures and value systems? Fuggedaboudit!
The most anybody really knows is that the religious folks have struck upon something of value in confession, repentance and conversation with a trusted friend or advisor.
NOT a discovery of the modern psychologists, thank you very much!
=========
That said …
Believe your eyes. Keep your head clear. Spread the word.
Keep the faith.
Take care.
There is a bias here that is not likely to serve Rifqa well. I am personally not willing to accept the “all Muslims do X” party line. However, putting that aside for a moment. Let us suppose that the Bary family is part and parcel of the most homicidal of patriarchal traditions. Let us further suppose that they equate apostasy with sexual acting out in terms of setting up the conditions for control/killing requirements.
What we have learned from abusive families in Western culture is that no one gets out unscathed. That is, once raised in a household that insists one is inferior due to gender or some other immutable quality, that one is “deserving” of abuse–whether physical, mental or spiritual, simple removal to another situation is not likely to bring about a change. All of the carefully honed vulnerabilities still exist–just waiting for another predator. Children who are sexually abused at home all too often wind up on the street as prostitutes. Women who are beaten not only frequently go back to their abuser, but they are also very likely to wind up in another abusive situation.
Some report experiencing an incredible tension if things go too smoothly for them, having been conditioned to expect all hell to break loose. They may engage in behavior that provokes an attack–as a means of “controlling” what they have experienced as an inevitability.
I don’t know the Bary family–and remain open to the possibility that they have no intention of ever harming their daughter. However, as so many fervently believe that their religious beliefs are “extremist,” controlling and physically risky, ought there not be far more concern for the extremist Christians who have flocked in to become her new family? If the family is abusive, she needs counseling help to overcome the effects, lest she just be revictimized by the folks just as far on the other side of the fence. If, on the other hand, she has merely been goaded into seeing in her own family what others insist must be present in all families, simply because they are Muslim, then she needs counseling assistance to examine the factors that made her so vulnerable and to sort out what is true and what is not.
By not telling the truth about Islam, governments, schools, colleges, universities, media – ALL are to blame for the Muslim violence inflicted in our Western countries.
In the Netherlands, courageous hero Wilders, is being prosecuted and faces possible imprisonment for telling the truth and speaking out against Islamic barbarism.
In October, 2009, the U.S. Obama administration co-sponsored a UN resolution with Muslim police state Egypt to ban speech that defames religion (Islam). A massive attack that threatens the freedom and safety of every non-Muslim on earth. The UN resolution seeks to prevent people from telling the truth about Islam. By not telling the truth, our entire Western civilization is endangered.
You must recognize Islam for what it is: a plague.
Everywhere they go, here, in Finland, in India, Kashmir, you name it. A plague. The intolerance, the violence, the obscurantism, the backwardness, the evil designs.
Today’s news: Americans are more prejudiced against Islam than to other religions. Really? Wow, what a discovery! And why would that be?
24. Ohioan:
Sir, what an exercise in mental gymnastics you offered.
1) [I don’t know the Bary family–and remain open to the possibility that they have no intention of ever harming their daughter.]
Of course, that’s always a possibility, but given the history…who wants to take the chance. Haven’t you been following the news lately?
2) [However, as so many fervently believe that their religious beliefs are “extremist,” controlling and physically risky, ought there not be far more concern for the extremist Christians who have flocked in to become her new family?]
Wow pal, brilliant! I thought these Cristian “extremists” helped her after she asked for help, possibly preventing harm and death. These are heroes. Besides, how many Christians kill their female family members when they befriend or marry out of their religion? So, who to be afraid of?
What Rifqa needs is not counseling, but to get out of Dodge! And fast.
23. joeblough:
Your comments about the state of affairs of Western psychology, including therapy, counseling, psychotherapy and psychoanalysis, are right on the money. Thanks.
Western psychology is like a groping child in the darkness.
From my angle, the psychoanalysis started by the father of Western psychology Freud, is the antithesis of yoga. It took only a certain part, the darkest, the most perilous, the unhealthiest part of nature, the lower vital subconscious layer, isolated its morbid phenomena, and extracted from it an action totally out of proportion to its true nature. Moreover, the exaggeration of the importance of suppressed sexual complexes is a dangerous falsehood that makes the mind dirtier instead of cleansing it.
In general, you cannot look from down up and try to explain the higher lights by the lower obscurities. The foundation of things is above, and not below. The superconscient, not the subconscient, is the true foundation of things. To know the part, you must know first the whole, and the highest before you can understand the lowest. That’s why their psychology comes to nothing.
Ohioan;
Just a few facts on the Bary case.
Her parents are in the US illegally.
Her father liquidated his business and holdings.
If they take her back to Sri Lanka no one will ever know if she was harmed.
CAIR hired the family lawyer. (unindicted co-conspirators in Holyland Foundation trial)
She was outed on the web as to her foster address and received death threats.
She has been a Christian for four years (secretly because of her fears)
Her father admitted to attacking her with a laptop when he found out she changed her religion.
Apostasy is a crime and punishable by death if one does not recant.
Hope that clears a few things up for you.
To #24 Ohioan:
Absolutely no one is saying all Muslims act out in a radical manner! You talk about extremist Christians: “ought there not be far more concern for the extremist Christians” Please explain what the extremist acts of Christians are?
On Tuesday I attended an Egyptian Christian street protest of thousands in New York City outside the UN, to protest the horrific persecution of Egyptian Christians in Egypt by Muslims.
The pain and grief was etched in their faces and in their voices:
“Why, why, must we die”
“We need justice!”
“No more Christian blood”
There were many protest signs and pictures of Christian victims. Representatives from the Hindu and Sikh communities attended to also protest and show solidarity with persecuted Christians.
Christians persecuted, shot to death, kidnapped, raped, forcibly and violently converted to Islam, murdered, for the sole reason they are not Muslim. The Egyptian government is actively involved in kidnapping Christian girls. Why would the Muslim government perpetrate kidnapping against non-Muslim innocents? Because it’s in the Koran. Mohammed the founder of Islam was a huge slave trader. 1,400 years of cruel Islamic slavery continues to this day.
Egypt, once a Christian country, was invaded by Arab Muslims. Egypt’s Christians live in continual fear, as do many other non-Muslims in majority Muslim countries.
ASSYRIAN INTERNATIONAL NEWS AGENCY
8-11-2009
Abduction and Forced Islamization of Christian Coptic Girls Continues in Egypt
(AINA) — The systematic abduction and forced Islamization of Coptic minor girls in Egypt is a frequent, dangerous and a rapidly escalating phenomenon, Coptic Pope Shenouda III, December 17th, 197: “there is pressure being practiced to convert Coptic girls to embrace Islam and marry them under terror to Muslim husbands” and demanded that the abducted girls be brought back to their families.
…abductions are done in cooperation between Saudi-funded associations and the Egyptian State Security.
…in the majority of cases, the State Security is the one who masterminds the kidnapping plans.”
http://www.aina.org/news/20090811125748.htm
The U.S. gifts Egypt with 2.2 billion dollars every year.
Ohioan 24:
“ought there not be far more concern for the extremist Christians who have flocked in to become her new family?”
So let me get this straight: a young woman flees her home and claims her own family is trying to kill her; and we should be FAR MORE concerned about the people she fled to for help?!
Because
“lest she just be revictimized by the folks just as far on the other side of the fence.”
Oh, I see. So there are Christians who are shipping their daughters off to the Vatican so they can be legally beheaded for converting to another religion? There are Christians who are throwing acid in their daughters faces for the crime of BEING RAPED? Their are Catholic hospitals doing female “circumcision? Yes? Because we’re “just as far on the other side of the fence”?
“If, on the other hand, she has merely been goaded into seeing in her own family what others insist must be present in all families, simply because they are Muslim….”
Aha! You’ve outed us! Yes, we are very clever aren’t we. (Psst: we’ve also convinced the whole world that the Muslims did 911, not the Jews. BWWAAAAHAAHAAHAAHAA! Ahem.)
I’m feeling divinely brilliant again. You may hate us – but you’ve really got to admire us too, don’t you?
You’re nothing but a common bigot. You hate Christians the same way some people hate Jews, or blacks, or whites or whatever. Just put on some white sheets and at least be honest about it.
28. You forget Karl Gustav Jung. I agree that there are Psychologists whose Sensitivity is less than that of a Stone, but having accomplished they University Diploma, they have the (very well paid) Right to go and work as Psychologists (no Wonder that Depression – in the West – is still almost healed by Pills).
On the other Hand there are very sensitive People which are, K. G. Jung alike, interested in “the Science of the Soul”, not just intellectually but very humanly, too.
They are Psychologists “within themselves” (sort of: they were born Psychologists), rather than claimed Psychologists (according to a University Diploma). I personally know People belonging to both Cases – and there is a whole World of Difference between the two.
Now: Greek (Hellenic) Philosophy belongs to Psychology, too, being it “the Science of the Soul (Psichè)”.
I must say: I like Phyllis Chesler’s Writings and Speeches because – I think/feel – she IS a Psychologist. I wonder what kind of Sensitivity (or Interest in it) do Rifqa’s Counseillors or Judges have(/are).
A further comment about Western “counseling”, if I may.
Tiger Woods is in “sex addiction” rehab. Viking Lady Nordregen required this before any possibility of reconciliation.
The elitist and famous center in Mississippi provides care under a famous doctor (probably what we call a shrink). 6 weeks, requiring victim Nordregen to be there 1 week, and a one-day “say-it-all” when Tiger must disclose to her, in detail, all his infidelity.
I can’t think of a worst idea. I can’t believe they do this to Ms. Nordregen. I can’t understand why she would put herself through this wringer. Unless the clinic/center desires to have 2 patients now, the crazy Tiger and an unbalanced Nordregen.
Obviously Tiger (who should now be called Cat Woods instead), has a neurosis. As the great Jewish psychologist Erich Fromm stated in “Man for Himself”, neurosis are a symptom of moral failure.
What Cat Woods needs now is to practice Yoga, and keep his mind and hand out of certain parts of his body. This Freud-sexual-complex-sex-addiction BS needs a holistic approach like Yoga, and not this morbid concentration on the darkness and putridity of his acts.
Please, leave Ms. Nordregen alone, as she is the healthy one here, and you will mess her up!
Lynn B:
There is not a single “fact” that you have listed that is supported by evidence. The Barys may or may not have legal status in the US–the final Florida court hearing when they were to present such evidence was closed.
I have seen the claim of liquidating business holdings. I also note that the “evidence” of this is documentation that his license to operate a business in the state of New York expired following five years non-use. Mr. Bary’s current business is in Ohio.
The family cannot take her back to Sri Lanka, as they have ceded custody to the State of Ohio. However, journalists may travel to Sri Lanka, as can all of the Christian “supporters” in this case.
The financial support of CAIR for the Bary’s legal defense has been denied by both of the family’s attorneys (in Florida and Ohio), who served pro bono. The Christian Science Monitor recently printed a retraction of their statement regarding Mr. Tarazi’s affiliation.
Her foster family’s address has never been published on the Web (although both Pam Geller and John Stemberger have at times placed the Bary family’s location on the Web). Both Rifqa and her family have received death threats.
There is evidence (her testimony) to support her having accepted Christ about four years ago. As a matter of belief, this is not disputed anywhere. If you want to call this a fact, well, I cede to you on this one.
Her father did not admit to “attacking” Rifqa with a laptop. Rifqa and Mr. Bary both describe an incident in which he raised the laptop over his head, and then put it down again. Rifqa’s understanding was that he meant to strike her. His is that he meant to smash the laptop. He did neither.
The punishment of death for apostasy is disputed by many Muslim scholars, and particularly so since a ruling in 2006 that levied the death penalty against a man for apostasy. This penalty was not carried out, however the event sparked statements by a number of prominent Muslim scholars that death is not a required punishment for apostasy. Others who may agree with the punishment condition this as being appropriate only when the apostate poses a significant threat of some kind against Islam. Many have offered the interpretation that the religious conversion of a 17 year old US female does not offer up a significant threat.
The question in my mind raised by the proliferation of those believing in these “facts,” is what is driving such a willingness to accept such fictions. I am not a psychologist, but as I look for historical parallels, the results are frightening.
RE: Linda Revera–”Absolutely no one is saying all Muslims act out in a radical manner! You talk about extremist Christians: “ought there not be far more concern for the extremist Christians” Please explain what the extremist acts of Christians are?”
Linda, many in fact are saying that all Muslims act in a radical manner–just peruse the comments here for examples. A belief that to be Muslim is to accept a list of credos that mandate death to all non-believers, even when that means carrying such out on members of one’s own family is absolutely driving the “save Rifqa” movement. Without this fundamental belief, all evidence in existence crumbles.
For a detailed critique of the extremism of the particular Christian sect(s) within which Rifqa has been swallowed see here: ://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=964. While much of the focus has been on Blake Lorenz, Brian Williams and Jamal Jivanjee–the driving forces here are those of Lou Engle (through whom she first encountered Williams) and Mike Bickel (whose International House of Prayer provided “networking” connections, and brought Rifqa together with the Lorenz family). These folks are not your parents’ Christians, unless your parents happened to be affiliated with Joel’s Army or the Kansas City Fellowship, some of the end times predecessors of the current self-proclaimed prophets. If you look hard enough, you can even find folks who have left their fellowship who report that they fear for their life.
I think it was Lord Kitchener in India who confronted the practitioners of widow-sacrifice (“suttee”). (Paraphrased) “You have a tradition of ‘suttee,’ while we have a tradition of erecting gallows. You practice your tradition and then we will introduce you to ours.”
Ohioan 35:
You are so blind. No one is saying “all” Muslims do anything. This is never true of any group; it’s a total canard. But the simple fact is – and this is the point – that these things are taught in the Koran and Sharia law and have been and are practiced widely throughout the Muslim world because of this. You can deny this but you will only make a fool of yourself. And I would still like to know where are all these Christians “just as far on the other side of the fence.” Your attempt to equate Christianity with Islam is nothing but liberal/multicultural nonsense.
joeblough, MiamaMan and HellenoChristian:
I whole-heartedly agree with all that has been said about psychology thus far. I will only add that its fundamental flaw is its materialism. It seeks to heal the soul while at the same time denying its existence. Thus it is now truly dying, being overtaken and subsumed by psychiatry: the biological machine is malfunctioning, so find a chemical/surgical solution and be done with it. This has already led to many horrors which most people know nothing about. Its fascination with sexual perversion is a primary factor – if not THE primary factor – in the moral degradation of our culture. And many “studies” have been done which are nothing but criminal acts disguised as “science”.
She’s toast!
Remember. Moslems are allowed to lie to “haredins”, “heretics”, “Jews”, Christians” and other “non-believers.”
34. + 34. Maybe you ignore the Fatwas issued by Alazhar, which isn’t exactly a Nothing for Islamic Communities?
There are a couple like Tawfik Hamid and Nonie Darwish (to mention two) which explain very well how, really, the Islamic Reality is. You are deceiving yourself (not us) by trying and describe it in a unrealistic Manner: following the Spreading of Islam in the West (and not only) there is an obvious Support for the Killing of Apostates (considering Apostasy from Islam a Capital Crime) among Believers, both Radicals, Moderates and Everyone.
Not to forget that Rifqa Bary’s Parents allegedly followed a quite Radical Mosque, which doesn’t allow any sane Person to believe in their open Mindness (toward their Daughter’s Apostasy and her Fleeing).
’till Islam refuse to recognize Human Rights, People like you and the Barys remain unreliable.
HellenoChristian says: “Not to forget that Rifqa Bary’s Parents allegedly followed a quite Radical Mosque, which doesn’t allow any sane Person to believe in their open Mindness (toward their Daughter’s Apostasy and her Fleeing).”
I live in Columbus, Ohio. You may be able to peddle that Radical Mosque BS in the blogosphere, but no on actively involved in the interfaith community here is going to buy it. Noor is too well-known to be an active partner in too many ecumenical partnerships working for social justice for this one to get past he laugh test.
Ohioan 41:
Where even to begin….. So – this “interfaith community” – they have all the facts and all the answers? And if they don’t believe “it” no one should? They are the only Muslims? There are no radical mosques?! You really believe this?! I can’t imagine where your head’s gotten stuck but it must be a very dark place.
Just out of curiosity (if I dare): what DID happen on 9/11? Anything?
logos1j1;;
Nobody has all the facts and all the answers–save God.
You ask “are there no radical mosques?” The fact that there are radical mosques does not in any way indicate that Noor Islamic Cultural Center is a radical mosque. It serves the needs of a number of radically anti-Islamic bloggers to cast NICC as such, however.
Also–since you ask–what happened on 9/11 an organized group of radical militants attacked the United States by crashing airplanes into several targets including the World Trade Center, and the Pentagon, while another flight, which is believed to have been headed for the White House was taken down by several passengers who preferred to die in a field in Pennsylvania than to ride along with the planned attack.
Do you remember what happened in the days immediately following? In our terror and panic, there were Americans stopped and interrogated for no crime other than appearing to be Muslim. Some were imprisoned. Mosques were attacked by ignoramuses who believed that every Muslim in the world was a part of this evil deed. I recall that it was churches in Columbus who responded when a Mosque here was broken into and ransacked.
A good description of a dark place is one in which violence and hatred are allowed to beget more violence and hatred.
Ohioan 43
So here you expose your narrowness by refusing to discuss this in a serious and thoughtful manner. I ask what had happened, obviously in relation to the ideological influences involved, and in your sarcastic recitation of those events (which I find very callous and disrespectful, I guess you thought it humorous) you were very careful to hide WHO IT WAS that carried out the attack. They are “radical militants”. Ya think?!. Let me try again since you’re pretending to be too stupid to understand: what cause were they radically militant about? Do we have any clues as to the ideology that drove them: yes? no? For example… oh I don’t know… were they chanting anything as they crashed into those buildings? Were they doing it in anyone’s name? Perhaps these “radical militants” had a book of some sort with them which they used as an example and excuse?
No. You’re pathetic. Yes, we have “radical militants” (of some stripe) attacking us, and their own, but who we should REALLY be concerned about are the people who are brainwashing Rifka Bary and slandering her loving parents and their mosque. Gotcha.
logos1j1:
Do you also deduce from the Bosnian ethnic cleansing that all Christians are murderous?
I don’t know what your little power trip is about, but I am not particularly interested in playing games on what I thought was a fairly serious discussion of the potential of counseling to impact cultural practice. The radical sects who committed terrorist acts on 9/11 were Muslim. By me saying this to you, what exactly have you proved, or contibuted to the discussion here?
Ohioan 45:
“Do you also deduce from the Bosnian ethnic cleansing that all Christians are murderous?”
Your prejudices prevent you from seeing the absurdity of this question. You are correct in calling what happened in Bosnia “ethnic cleansing”: it had to do with ethnicity, not religion. The Serbs wanted their idea of the “Serbian homeland” to be ethnically pure and this is what they said, and this is how and why it was carried out. They have had this attitude toward all of their neighbors, Muslim OR Christian, for centuries. So, firstly, you admit it was an ethnic, not a religious, war, then you bring in the religious aspect creating a self-contradiction. (And may I point out that, by all accounts, both groups are only nominally Muslim/Christian: there’s no religious fervor of any kind on either side. Seriously: do you really believe Milosevic was a Christian?! Do you imagine he was attending church each Sunday, praying, singing, studying his Bible? Please.) Secondly, a Christian nation (us) put a stop to it and you know this. So once again: pure idiocy on display. You’re not stupid, you’re blind, as I said above. This is worse because it’s purposeful and dishonest.
I’m not on a power trip and I’m not trying to get you to say anything. I don’t care if you do or don’t respond. I’m only pointing out what your comments reveal: you are prejudiced against Christians. Your multicultural, PC beliefs will not allow you to see that Christianity and Islam are nothing alike, they are diametrically opposed. Islam is at root militaristic, Christianity is at root peaceful. These are scriptural, theological and historical facts, not prejudices. But you must insist, however foolish it makes you look to any intelligent and knowledgeable person, that they are essentially the same – or perhaps that Islam is better?. Only from a “religious” devotion to an absurd belief system (cultural relativism) could anyone make the claims you have: such as: that we should be “be far more concern for the extremist Christians who have flocked in to become her new family?” (24) You have never given any evidence to support this. When I gave very real examples of what is happening in Muslim communities all over the world (thus explaining why we should take Rifka at her word and protect her) you failed to give comparable examples of Christian communities doing similar things to support your claim that there are Christians “just as far on the other side of the fence.” I called you out on this and I guess that’s what you consider a “power trip”. Yet another unfounded, prejudicial accusation. Typical. And I guess your unfounded, unsupported claims; absurd, self- contradictory questions and snide sarcasm regarding 9/11 constitute for you “…a fairly serious discussion…” of an important issue?
One important point.
The vast majority of Bosnian Muslims are of the same race as Serbs and Croats, but converted to Islam under Turkish rule to take advantage of the many perks of the ruling class. Moreover, the terrifying militia that Turkey often used in the area to curb rebellions, the Bashi-Bozouk, was mostly comprised of this converted element. Do you know what the Bashi-Bozouk did in Batak, Bulgaria, under the influence of alcohol? Victor Hugo from France castigated the cowardly Europeans that would not help the Bulgarian uprising. Finally, the Russians did.
It was only in the mid 1800 when Christians in the Balkans had to bow to the Turks, even dismount a horse to do so.
So, how do Serbs and Croats view this Bosnian Muslim crowd? As traitors to their own race, religion, and culture, and former oppressors…can you blame them? I don’t.
Besides, the so-called ethnic cleansing there was done by both parts. Only the Christian took the bad rap. At least the Serbs were Serbs, but the Muslims there brought hundred if not thousands of Mujaheddins, Chechens, Arabs.
Than hillbilly known as Slick Willy should have never stuck his Red Skelton nose in that mess, and should have let the Serbs roam.
MiamaMan 47:
“how do Serbs and Croats view this Bosnian Muslim crowd? As traitors to their own race, religion, and culture, and former oppressors”
Yes, and as cowards. The Serbs have always been a very fierce, unbending people in their defense of their homeland, so they stopped the Muslim advance cold. This is admirable. But their treatment of even their Christian neighbors has made them greatly disliked by everyone around them, and their actions with regard to the Croats can only be considered an atrocity in this day and age regardless of the reasons.
“Besides, the so-called ethnic cleansing there was done by both parts. Only the Christian took the bad rap.”
Correct. And this was due to the same PC crap we’re dealing with here. The Muslim faults are glossed over or even denied while Christian/Western faults are exaggerated. Everyone’s the same – unless we’re worse. It’s a weird sort of self-hatred that Western civilization is going through right now. It’s time to get over it.
logos1j1:
Since you refuse to discuss the question at hand (whether counseling is an appropriate help for an alleged victim of threatened “honor killing”), let me be a bit more direct in my response to you. First off, regardless of what you prefer to believe, I am a practicing (and I do not select that term lightly) Christian. I have been for many years and have raised my children as believers. This does not mean that I give knee-jerk approval to anyone who operates under cover of the cross. On numerous occasions, Christ urged his followers to look beyond the labels by which they identified people, seeing into their hearts and looking at the alignment of their actions to his teachings.
You say, “that we should be ‘be far more concern for the extremist Christians who have flocked in to become her new family?’ (24) You have never given any evidence to support this.” Let me then elaborate on the dangers that I see. In looking carefully at those who have been involved with Rifqa over time, there are a number who fall into the category of dominionist believers–including Lou Engles (with whom Rifqa has had direct contact, and has been mentored through one of his youth movements by Brian Williams). Engles has also been associated with the International House of Prayer, in Kansas City, where Brian Williams is now, and Mike Bickel. These two have a long association with a dominionist ministry known at times as Joel’s Army. They are actively recruiting young people to serve as a force by which (by violence if necessary) to impose Christianity–as defined by them–on the United States. Dominionist groups have been actively involved with the government in Uganda. Humanitarian aid is often tied to religious conversion. They are supportive of the legislation mandating death for homosexuals. For a chilling statement consider this about one segment of Dominionism known as “Reconstruction:
Leaders of the Reconstructionist movement advocate that the:
“… death penalty be used to punish those guilty of ‘apostasy (abandonment of the faith), heresy, blasphemy, witchcraft, astrology, adultery, ‘sodomy or homosexuality,’ incest, striking a parent, incorrigible juvenile delinquency, and in the case of women, ‘unchastity before marriage.’ Non-capital crimes would be sanctioned with whipping, indentured servitude or slavery.”
http://www.religioustolerance.org/reconstr1.htm
This is exactly the kind of accusation being levelled against, not some Muslims, but Islam as a whole.
I have lived long enough to see some “Christians” go sorely awry in following false prophesies. I have grown deeply distrustful of those who, like Jim Jones, stray far afield from the mainstream, placing themselves in positions where there are no challenges to their choices, no dialogues to develop their understandings, and no perspective to help them know when the voice they hear is not that of God. Blake Lorenz, who has attracted much attention, particularly of late, has pulled away (or been pushed out) from a succession of churches in very recent history. He may not yet have the following of a Mike Bickel or a Lou Engle. But he has allied himself with them in both his stated beliefs and in his network of connections. Even setting aside his refusal to abide by the law, ministerial ethics or to trust in those authorities constituted to protect minors, he acted in ways that broke trust with his own community of faith, and has since taken a self-protectionist stance that reveals him more as whiner than warrior.
Additional information about dominionists/joel’s army may be found at: http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=964
48. logos1j1:
[and their actions with regard to the Croats can only be considered an atrocity in this day and age regardless of the reasons.]
Are we on the same page here? When this actions by the Serbs happened, the one that you refer to?
If anyone has massacred another people in that area of the Balkans are the Croats (the catholic Croats), under the Ustasha of Poglavnic (fuehrer) Ante Pavelic during World War II. It is one of those little secrets, that the cruelest concentration death camp in Europe was Jasenovac in Croatia. The Ustasha killed by slitting the throat, and they did that with gusto, there is documentation proving that among the killers at the beginning were several catholic priests. No only Jews, which they totally exterminated in Croatia, but at least they massacred 100,000 Serbs (some historian think it could be double that figure), so the Croats owe the Serbs BIG TIME!
The SS comprised of Bosnian Muslims was used in anti-partisan operation in Serbia where they committed all kinds of atrocities.
34 – NO!
Death for apostasy is allowed in the Qur’an, the aHadith, Sharia Law and in the 1400 years of Islamic exegesis. If a Muslims claims that it is otherwise, they are practicing taquiyya (lying to further Islam).
Please note the shortened name. I am the same logos as above.
MiamaMan 50:
I was referring to the dust-up between Serbia and Croatia that occurred when Yugoslavia began splitting up in the early nineties after the collapse of the Soviet Union; which was my response to Ohioan 45ff. You’re referring to something much earlier; which isn’t to say it’s irrelevant: as I said, these tensions have been going on for centuries. I was merely acknowledging that what the Milosevic regime did can only be considered atrocities in this day and age without acceding to Ohioan’s (erroneous and specious) claim that it represented a collective act of Christians against Muslims. Your assertion that we “should have let the Serbs roam” was something I chose not to respond to directly: when, where and how we should respond when such things happen is a very complex topic. Generally I’m inclined to agree with you: our interventions in Vietnam, Lebanon, Somalia and Iraq (Gulf War) were failures and were in my view ill advised and unconstitutional; The Yugoslavian intervention succeeded but whether we should have done it – well. In my view if the Europeans weren’t willing to intervene (which they weren’t) we should have stayed out of it; but Slick Willy had his own reasons, as I said. But you seem to think we should have stayed out of it because the Serbs were justified. I disagree with that. I just think that it wasn’t any of our business, such interventions rarely work and strictly speaking they’re unconstitutional (only Congress can declare war, no war was declared). A much better approach was the one we took with Columbia in their quite literal war (and an existential one at that) with the drug cartels in the late eighties and early nineties: we helped them solve their own problem, which help was of critical importance and helped make the difference: without it Columbia may very well have collapsed into a total chaos. Now they are a strong ally and good trading partner in South America. But we did not go in there with military force and try to solve their problem for them. Military personnel were there only in an advisory, tactical and technical capacity. (I think we had a grand total of about 20 guys at any one time.)
Ohioan 49:
“Since you refuse to discuss the question at hand…”
1) See my post at 38. This subject has been thoroughly discussed.
2) These posts always take on a life of their own. Actually, that’s most of the fun – in my humble opinion.
3) I was discussing your own claims which you brought up on your own, so if you didn’t think they were relevant …….?!
4) You seem to be under the impression that no one is allowed to contradict you or ask you to support your assertions: if they do they are either “on a power trip” or “refusing to discuss the issue at hand”. Let me strenuously disagree and move on to the issues which you have now raised:
What you have described here is a Christian sect, perhaps a cult, which has diverged from one or more of the major tenets of the historic faith, in this case the belief that Old Testament legalism should be resurrected in the church age. I have no idea if this is true of this group and I haven’t heard it from any other source. But I also don’t know that it isn’t true so for the sake of argument I’ll assume you’re right: it still doesn’t support your claims for several reasons. The first I’ve already mentioned: if true they’ve separated themselves from the historic faith and therefore are not a reflection of it. We can’t be blamed for wackos that separate from us while still using our name. Second: You have given no examples of them actually doing the things you claim they are in favor of (killing homosexuals, disobedient children, apostates, etc.) but examples Muslims doing these things, and worse, are innumerable. Third: Muslims also do other things which you have not accused this group of. I’ll reiterate: female “circumcision”, throwing acid in the faces of or stoning rape victims, killing infidels (as opposed to apostates), etc. Fourth: Muslims who do this, far from being an extremist sect (which is how the left tries to portray them) are acting in obedience to the Koran, Sharia law and Mohamed’s example. This is how they have behaved throughout history. The simple and obvious (to any unbiased person) fact is that there are no Christians “just as far on the other side of the fence.” and if there were they wouldn’t be Christians! This is simply to say (again) that Christianity and Islam are fundamentally different, they are diametrically opposed. Any attempt to say other wise is multicultural garbage. You have failed utterly to make your case, which was inevitable since the claims were specious and slanderous.
Jim Jones was not a Christian. He was a socialist, and the People’s Temple was a socialist movement from the get-go. By the time they moved to San Francisco they had already abandoned any pretense of being a “church”. Jones stood on a Bible and declared that there was no God, but if there was one it was him. The lie that that this was a Christian cult is one of the best examples of misdirection that the left has ever accomplished, and you’ve bought it hook, line and sinker.
Finally, I never said you weren’t a Christian. (Actually the question never entered my mind.) I said you were prejudiced against Christians, and your comments reflect that as I’ve shown. So you’re a Christian who hates Christians and Christianity. Fine. There are many such. There are entire denominations like this. Such people exist in every group; it’s a common and well known phenomenon.
Another quick note: the socialist/communist (take your pick, they’re ultimately the same) origin and nature of Jim Jones’ movement is contained in the very name: the “People’s” Temple.
52. Logos:
[But you seem to think we should have stayed out of it because the Serbs were justified. I disagree with that]
I respect your opinion, but, yes, exactly, that’s what I think. The Serbs were on the right side of history.
Your information comes from the same source that was fed to the press here and generally in the West. The “ethnic cleansing” on one side only, which was not true.
What do you think the Serbs felt when the Mujaheddins, the Chechens, the Al Qaeda Bin Laden types, the beheading crowd started showing up and acting in their neighborhood helping the Muslim Bosnians? How many innocent civilians were killed by the US bombing of Serbia?
My sources of news came straight from the area, as my wife is Bulgarian, and I have traveled extensively in the Balkans, know the area, the history and the people there well.
Red-Skelton-Nose-of-Lewinsky-Fame-Slick-Willy had no business there, but to get a phony, Saudi-financed, statue in Sarajevo recently, or some quote in his presidential library.
to 16. Mike Bailor: You are right: one good thing the Brits did in India was to suppress suttee. It wasn’t Kitchener, though, who uttered those marvelous words.
“In his estimation, one of the great contributions of Brits in India was the outlawing of sati (suttee), the burning alive of widows on their husbands’ funeral pyres.
“The author of the reform was Lord William Henry Cavendish-Bentinck (1774–1839), a man who was never afraid to make himself unpopular and was keenly aware that if he failed in any of his military or political missions he would be disgraced, while if he succeeded it would never be as a result of support from his own government.
Bentinck became governor-general in India from 1828 to 1835. He abolished sati on 4 December 1829. Indeed some say that his sweeping social, economic, and political reforms laid the foundations for modern India.
Enforcing his law was Sir Charles James Napier, a fierce, uninhibited man who hated oppression whether he found it in Britain or India – and made no bones about condemning it. He was famously reported to have said -
‘You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. We will follow ours.’ “
MiamaMan:
“Your information comes from the same source that was fed to the press here and generally in the West”
No. Even in 1993 – when I was only 21 – I was always careful to look past the superficial reports and get the whole story. I agreed with you that there were atrocities on both side. I just didn’t think that that justified what the Serbs did.
“How many innocent civilians were killed by the US bombing of Serbia?”
Come on. This is a canard. There are always civilian casualties in war. If you’re going to object on that score you just have to object to war, period. That obviously is not your position.
“How many innocent civilians were killed by the US bombing of Serbia?”
[Come on. This is a canard. There are always civilian casualties in war. If you’re going to object on that score you just have to object to war, period. That obviously is not your position.]
Yes, you got me, it is a canard. Now you are your sharpest self.
I ain’t perfect, far from it.
57. Logos:
You recently wrote you were 32, but if you were 21 in 1993, you should be now 38…what takes?
MiamaMan 59:
Interesting. I’m 38. I don’t know where you got that I was 32. I’d like to see the quote. If you’re right it must have been a typo.
I guess I should be precise: I’ll Be 38 by the end of month. Let’s leave it at that. At first I thought it was close enough as to make no difference, but now I’ve reconsidered. At any rate I’ve never been confused about my age, nor do I have any desire to misrepresent it. Another possibility occurred to me – again, assuming you’re right, which we won’t know until you produce a quote (I for one am not searching for it) – I may have deleted and/or rewritten a portion of a post without double-checking to see if the final product was internally consistent. I try not to do this, but sometimes I get in a hurry or just forget. So that may have created a false impression.
So: I’ll be 38 soon enough. Case closed.
61. Logos:
[So: I’ll be 38 soon enough. Case closed.]
Don’t know about that till I see a birth certificate now. Closed as Mr. Obama’s nationality?
Grandma Obama said she saw him being born in Kenya. I don’t think the Tea Partiers are too far off here. Waddaya think?
MiamaMan 62:
Yes, I did look into this and I find her quote to be the most compelling evidence in the matter. Here is how it shakes out: 1) Hawaiian law at the time was apparently very lax, though not unusual: all you had to do was send a witnessed letter stating that you had had a child (name, sex, etc.) in Hawaii, and they accepted it as proof. This is astounding to me, but by all accounts it was the case. So even if they produced a genuine Hawaiian birth certificate…. so what? 2) They have categorically refused to produce the actual birth certificate for anyone even though they are public record: anyone should be able to go in and personally view and obtain a copy of his, or anyone’s, birth record. Their reason for not doing this is patently absurd: they say they are trying to prevent “identity theft”. As if anyone is now going to try to steal Obama’s identity! And as if this crime never existed before Al Gore invented the internet. In fact just the opposite is true: birth certificates are by law public record precisely so that you can go and verify that someone is who they say they are. (However, it is true that they did change their policy for this reason before candidate Obama came onto the stage. It’s just absurd, that’s all. Bureaucrats do stupid things for stupid reasons.) 3) The birth announcements in the newspapers are no evidence at all (in my mind). First, nothing could be easier to forge if someone had a motive to do so. Also, his mother or family would have announced his birth there regardless of where he was born: he had family there. Again, I would like to see a copy of the original newspaper (not a reproduction) with those announcements in it. But no one keeps actual newspapers around for 45 years. Not even libraries. This is the “evidence” in favor of Obama’s Hawaiian birth. Over and against this is his grandmother’s eye-witness testimony, considered compelling evidence in any court room the world over. Why would anyone lie about this? Why would a grandmother, of all people? I find it incredible. Nevertheless, I do not consider myself a “birther”. I would just like to hear a satisfactory answer to any one of these objections. And I’ve never heard him or anyone even try to explain why his grandmother would have lied about such a thing.
63. Logos:
Thanks.
No, I do not considered myself a “birther” either, but given all the other lies and half-omissions he has entertained in his so-called autobiography, from his friend at school in Hawaii, his drug use, his deafness at Reverend Wright’s, and many others, I am totally skeptical of anything coming from him and his entourage.
MiamaMan 64:
I don’t believe one word Obama says: he’s a pathological liar. And he has finally proven himself to be an idiot with this latest “corpse-man” debacle, except to those who are simply deluding themselves. (I’ve thought he was an idiot almost from the beginning, yet no one agreed with me.) I think we are about to witness the most spectacular melt-down in US presidential history. The rats have got to be jumping ship now, don’t they? We shall see.
Too bad they let these Islamics into our country. Well, it’s too late to turn back now, the “horse is out of the barn”. Our government is now “in bed” with these Islamics, and they think all is well! Wait til they really let us have it, thanks to our leaders’ foolishness!!! If they’re so gung ho on Shariah law, then why don’t they just go over to one of those places! Oh yeah, they want to dominate in the same way they have for centuries: CONVERT OR DIE. Those guys are worming their way into every facet of our society and will conquor us from within. They won’t have to attack from without. When are true Americans going to take back this country, or is it already too late?
I’d just like to throw some things into the mix, here. If someone with authority offered prosperity or poverty, wouldn’t the choice be a “no brainer”? and if they offered sickness or health, another “no brainer”? How about death or life? Muslims have no hope, no assurance of their final eternal destination, unless they sacrifice their own life for their cause. Christians — Christ ones (ones who follow Christ) have that assurance because Jesus sacrificed His life for us. All of it was bought–paid in full (life, health and prosperity) with His own blood. He knew no sin, and therefore was the perfect sacrifice. It all goes back to the basic foundation to one’s beliefs. Acting on those beliefs is faith. Love is self sacrificing, putting the interests of others above one’s own interests. Something to ponder…….