The Middle East has always been a terrible place for minorities, but lately it has become even worse. After living all over the region for thousands of years, the rise of Nazism marked the beginning of the end of Middle Eastern Jewish communities almost everywhere. Sunni Muslims are miserable in countries governed by Shias, and vice versa. The Kurds have been kicked around everywhere. Smaller minorities like the Druze, Alawites, and Berbers live in a constant state of dread. Thousands of Iraqi and Palestinian Christians have been driven into exile in the last few years alone.
I don’t know how much trouble Egypt’s Christians will have now that “spring” has arrived, but sectarian clashes are rising. Many fear Islamic rule may be coming, a tyranny worse than the last.
Recently I spoke with Ramez Atallah, a Protestant and the head of the Bible Society of Egypt, about the difficulties he and his community face. My colleague Armin Rosen joined me. This is the second of two parts. If you missed Part One, you can read it here.
Ramez Atallah: I was impressed by what the revolutionaries accomplished on the 25th of January. It took incredible courage to stand up to an authoritarian government. I take my hat off. I am amazed.
I am less impressed by what followed. I am less impressed by letting Muslim Brotherhood members out of prison so quickly and the rise of the Salafists. The Muslim Brotherhood should have been let out gradually, much more carefully, in a more controlled way. A road map should have been drawn up and the Brotherhood only let out if they support it. Instead they have a piece of the agenda and we have pandemonium.
The big struggle here is not between Christians and Muslims, but between Muslims and Muslims. I saw a Muslim woman on TV just yesterday who said to the Muslim Brotherhood, “I am a Muslim, and you are Muslims, but the difference between me and you is like night and day. There is no way you can convince me to support you. As a full human being, I cannot accept it. I want to be free.”
Saad Eddin Ibrahim gave a speech and was more diplomatic. He said, “of course we support the Muslim Brotherhood as long as they agree to certain conditions.” And those conditions are things they can never agree to.
I need you to please understand that Muslims hate it when the West speaks up for Christians. They absolutely despise it and we become the victims.
MJT: What do they expect us to do?
Ramez Atallah: They don’t want you to speak about it. They think Christians have a special place. They don’t know that Christians have problems. The average Muslim has no idea because thirty two percent of private wealth in Egypt is in the hand of Christians, but we’re only ten percent of the population.
MJT: So the average Muslim here doesn’t understand what the West is complaining about?
Ramez Atallah: They don’t. They’re not seeing this as a human rights issue, they’re seeing it as a sectarian issue. It’s like a racial thing for them. The Salafists recently told Christians if they want America to stand up for them they should go to America. They want Egyptians Christians to be supported and protected by an Egyptian system, not by foreigners, so we suffer when the West stands up for our rights. It doesn’t help.
It helped a bit when Mubarak was president because he was one man. He could be pressured. He might resent it, but he could make decisions and eventually he could be talked into it. Now we get blamed when the West supports us. We’re called traitors. They now say we belong to the West.
I would much rather the West talk about human rights than Christian rights. Look carefully at the situation in Egypt. Look at whose rights are going to get squashed if we get an Islamic government. The majority I feel sorry for are my Muslim neighbors. They are decent middle class people. They are educated, they go to the mosque, they pray, but they welcome us, they are very kind. There is no Christian-Muslim divide between us. But if we get an Islamic government, the state will be saying, “Islam is the way.” That’s the Muslim Brotherhood’s slogan.
One of the dreams of the revolution was for Christian and Muslim unity. We had signs with the Christian cross and the Muslim crescent together. People would hold up the Bible and the Koran at the same time. These people are genuine. They’re like my neighbors. I live in a typical building. There are fifty five apartments. Five of the families are Christian and the rest are Muslims. We have excellent relations with each other. Excellent. I live with middle class and upper-middle class Muslims. These are the kinds of people who went to Tahrir Square.
Young people don’t discriminate between Muslims and Christians. They play together, they work together. So there is a genuine sense that we are one, an honest sense. These people are the ones who get upset when Americans talk about Christians being persecuted here. It’s this group of Muslims that gets most offended.
MJT: Not the Muslim Brotherhood?
Ramez Atallah: Not the Muslim Brotherhood. The Muslim Brotherhood expects it. But these people don’t expect it. They say, “we treat our neighbors well. Why do you Christians have to go and get these Americans to support you? Aren’t we good enough?” It feels like a breach of trust to them.
MJT: But you aren’t doing it. We are.
Ramez Atallah: They think we’re crying to mommy or that we want daddy to beat up the kid who’s beating us up. They don’t believe you’re doing it on your own initiative. They think you do it because we complain, that we squeal and the Americans squeeze.
MJT: We see stories all the time in the Western media about how Christians have a hard time building churches here. How do you expect Americans to respond to that? The American sense of fairness and justice is offended by it.
Ramez Atallah: The harassment we got as Christians from the Mubarak government was not religious harassment, but political harassment. And it’s much easier to deal with political harassment than religious harassment.
The Muslim policemen who came to stop the building of a church were not necessarily concerned about Christians building a church. They were trying to enforce secular Egyptian law. Some may have been fanatical, but for the most part they were understanding people. They’d say, “look guys, you aren’t supposed to build a church. You have to get a permit and go through the law before it gets done.” They were told to do this. Some of them were fanatics, but the majority weren’t.
If we get a Muslim Brotherhood government, the officials who come to us will be religiously oriented, not politically oriented.
MJT: Right.
Ramez Atallah: They will have a vested interest in making sure churches do not get built. There is no way they will help us cut corners to get around the law. The previous policemen might say, “if you give me a bit of money, there are ways to get around this sort of thing.” We weren’t afraid of these guys. Some of them were educated in Christian schools and have been treated in our hospitals.
Mubarak was appeasing the right-wing Muslim fear of Christian expansion. My fear is that the new regime, if it’s an Islamic regime, will be merciless in its religious orientation and won’t allow us even to breathe. They will find a way to close my book shop. They won’t allow me to put billboards on the highway anymore. They won’t allow me to put ads in the newspapers. They will accuse me of proselytizing. With the Mubarak regime I was fine because I was running a private business sselling Bibles rather than proselytizing.
I’m worried the Muslim Brotherhood will be more restrictive. That doesn’t mean they’re going to come and burn down my church, but they will be much more restrictive. Islam in an Arabic-speaking country is very different from Islam in a non-Arabic country.
MJT: It most certainly is. How do you explain that?
Ramez Atallah: Like I told you before, Islam is very close to people’s identity, like your gender is for you. This is most true in Arabic countries because Islam is Arabic. They are intertwined. The language and the religion are intertwined. Arabic is the only language in the world that has been frozen for 1400 years.
If you ask any child here what his hardest subject is in school, invariably he will say Arabic. You as a Westerner may scratch your head and wonder how Arabic can be the hardest subject in school in an Arab country, but it’s because the language we speak and read in Egypt is so different from classical Arabic.
MJT: Classical Arabic is like Latin for us.
Ramez Atallah: Exactly. And how many kids did you know who liked Latin in school?
MJT: None. We don’t even study it any more.
Ramez Atallah: And it’s only a written language now. That’s exactly what kids are doing when they study Arabic. We have this old language that is very far from what we read and speak every day. It is imposed on us. There is this mystique about it, that we have to know it and live it. Arabs are more closely aligned to Islam because their language, their culture, and their faith are all one.
But I always say the Christians of Egypt aren’t persecuted. We’re discriminated against. We’re second-class citizens.
MJT: Yes, you are.
Ramez Atallah: “Persecuted” is too strong a word. The richest man in Egypt wouldn’t be Christian if we were persecuted. That wouldn’t make sense. We couldn’t control so much of the wealth in this country if we were persecuted. Wealthy Christians have to overcome incredible obstacles to get where they are, so they’re geniuses. In America they would be trillionaires rather than billionaires.
The story of how Christians became wealthy is very ironic. We weren’t allowed to be in politics or in government or hold many important positions in medicine, dentistry, and so on. So we went into business instead where there is more money. One guy started a pharmacy, another guy started a clothing business, and so on. A third guy sold some cars, a fourth guy started a mechanical shop. Forty years later, that clothing store has become the biggest store in Egypt. The little pharmacy has become the biggest pharmaceutical production company in the country. When Sadat opened the door to capitalism, they were ready and they expanded their businesses. They stayed out of government and expanded their businesses.
Armin Rosen: Are Christians drafted into the military?
Ramez Atallah: Yes, but they won’t be if the Muslim Brotherhood takes over.
Armin Rosen: Do they have high ranks in the military, or are they discriminated against there, too?
Ramez Atallah: They are discriminated against.
MJT: How high up can they go?
Ramez Atallah: If a Christian becomes a general, they kindly figure out how to retire him.
MJT: It’s okay for a Christian to be a colonel?
Ramez Atallah: Sure. And a few of them are even promoted to generals, but they are quickly retired.
MJT: Why, exactly? The army isn’t Islamist, it’s a secular Arab Nationalist.
Ramez Atallah: Yes, but it’s still biased toward Muslims.
MJT: Even though they aren’t ideologically Muslims the way the Brotherhood is.
Ramez Atallah: They’re not liberal. And the Muslim Brotherhood has slowly been infiltrating the army like they’ve infiltrated the unions. They’ve worked at it for thirty years and they’ve been very careful to get where they are. They’ve been planning for this day for a long time. And unlike Nelson Mandela, when he came out of prison and forgave people who worked with the former government, the Brotherhood wants revenge.
MJT: Revenge against who, exactly?
Ramez Atallah: They have a lot of anger toward the previous regime. They’re not at all like Nelson Mandela. When he came out of prison, white people were packing up to leave, but he said, “we can’t run the country without you. Any of you who want to work with me, I’ll work with you.” We’ve had nothing like that experience here. There’s a spirit of vindictiveness and revenge in the Muslim Brotherhood.
One third of our newspaper space is dedicated to what will happen to Mubarak and his people. It’s a big waste.
Armin Rosen: We’ve heard there’s a certain amount of discontent among young Coptic Christians about the deal that was struck between the Coptic community and the Mubarak regime, where the church was close to the government. You also seem to support détente between Christians and whoever is in power, but correct me if that’s not what you believe.
Ramez Atallah: I’m reading the Book of Daniel now. He was the number two man in the Babylonian Empire under three kings. Joseph was the number two man in Egypt. Don’t tell me these people didn’t have to compromise. They were Jewish, but they didn’t fight for Jews. They stood for their people, but they were willing to serve pagan governments.
I think stomping your feet and saying “Muslims have to respect Christians” isn’t going to get us anywhere. It’s better to be involved in civil society. I think one of the best models are the Christians down in Tahrir Square. They aren’t taking Christian positions, they’re just down there, involved, and supporting the movement in general. And they aren’t vindictive.
There are many problems with the Coptic Church. To be a bishop, you have to be a monk and monks, by definition, are people who don’t meddle in the world. So why should it be surprising that the church doesn’t get involved in the world when its leaders are all monks? It’s just not in their mindset. So it’s not surprising that a monastic church would have difficulty with active involvement in the revolution or anything other than some kind of compromise with the existing government.
Pope Shenouda was extremely brave in standing against the government when things were done against Christians. Sadat banished him to a monastery in the desert and replaced him with five bishops. He wasn’t let out until 1985 after Mubarak came to power. So don’t tell me he wasn’t brave or that he didn’t stand up for the rights of Christians.
MJT: How close is Egypt’s Protestant community with the Orthodox Coptic community?
Ramez Atallah: They are bitter enemies.
MJT: Really? Why?
Ramez Atallah: We’re the only organization that serves all the churches. We walk in a minefield every day. Ours is the only non-Orthodox building the pope here ever dedicated.
The Orthodox Copts in Egypt are the most Biblical people in the world.
MJT: What do you mean by that, exactly?
Ramez Atallah: They love, memorize, and follow the Bible’s teaching more literally than anyone else. They’re fundamentalists. You won’t find another church in the world that is as Bible-centered in so many ways.
Armin Rosen: You’re the head of the Bible Society saying this.
Ramez Atallah: We wouldn’t have such a big business if the Coptic Church, which is our main customer, didn’t voraciously buy everything we produce. Bible societies in the West don’t know how to sell Bibles. Nobody wants one. Here they are hungry and asking for more.
Copts and Protestants don’t hate each other. It’s not personal. The problem is that the Orthodox church here believes it’s the only true church. They say non-Orthodox can’t take communion with them. But they are very kind people, I work closely with them, and I admire the church, really I do. We wouldn’t be here if it were not for them.
MJT: You don’t seem terribly concerned about being a second-class citizen in this country.
Ramez Atallah: I accept that I’m a second-class citizen. Many Christians don’t, but I do.
My grandfather was one of the wealthiest men in this country. He was the fourth wealthiest person. His property was nationalized by the Nasser regime. The government took everything he owned. I was the only son in the family. He had three daughters, and I am the son of his eldest daughter. Everything he lost would have been my inheritance. He had five or six big businesses.
When I was young I was taken in by the vision of Nasser, but then his men took my grandfather’s property. It wasn’t socialism. They divvied it up amongst themselves. They weren’t socialists, they were opportunists.
I escaped Egypt with nothing and started from zero in Canada. My father was a leading dentist and he had to leave. He was harassed. I had every reason to be bitter about Egypt, but I came back as a Christian to serve my people without bitterness.
I don’t think it’s possible for me to be a first-class citizen. I’m a realist, okay? So my world view is very different from those Christians who expect to have the same rights as Muslims. Expecting the impossible will only make you frustrated your whole life. Working within the restrictions the way these billionaires do works much better than fighting the government.
Daniel knew when to compromise and when not to compromise. As Christians we need to know what is important and what isn’t important. It’s not a big deal for me to be a second-class citizen. There are more important things for me within Egypt. Maybe you as an idealistic American feel differently.
MJT: Yes. I’m having a hard time with some of what you’re saying. I understand where you’re coming from and it makes logical sense, but I wouldn’t tolerate living as a second-class citizen anywhere.
Ramez Atallah: I’m an Evangelical Christian. I’d be a second-class citizen in both the U.S. and Canada.
MJT: No, you wouldn’t.
Ramez Atallah: There is a disdain. We get humiliated in schools and universities. There is a sense in the U.S. that Evangelicals are culturally dominant, but we’re a hated group.
MJT: But the government doesn’t discriminate against you. You’re talking about only certain segments in American society. There’s a huge difference.
Ramez Atallah: I was in Quebec, which is very anti-religious. But wherever you go you have the state interfering. Whether you have religion in schools or not is a big issue in America. Some people say fight it, others say don’t fight it. I’m just as much against teaching creationism as I am against teaching evolution. I don’t think either should be forced on kids.
My point is that I don’t think true freedom exists anywhere in the world. And I, as a Christian in Egypt, have had a very pleasant thirty years since I came back. I haven’t felt very restricted even when working closely with government officials. I am publishing, promoting, and selling the Bible in Egypt. I distribute millions of Bibles every year. I honestly feel that I can manage within the restrictions.
MJT: Maybe that has been true so far, but the restrictions on you as a second-class citizen could get worse at any moment.
Ramez Atallah: They could get a lot worse.
MJT: And then you wouldn’t say anymore than you’re okay being a second-class citizen.
Ramez Atallah: But the people who are going to get the brunt of it are my Muslim friends. They will suffer more. My wife will not be forced to wear a veil by the Muslim Brotherhood. By the Salafists maybe, but not the Muslim Brotherhood. But the Brotherhood would force my wife to wear a veil if we were Muslims. My Muslim friends’ wives will be forced to wear veils while mine won’t. There will be discrimination against Muslims by Muslims.
If Muslim liberals and free-thinking Muslims can have freedom, Christians will automatically have breathing space.
MJT: Yes. That, I get.
Ramez Atallah: My point is, what will the government listen to more? Will America get a better result by pressing for freedom for Christians or freedom for Muslims? If you pressure Egypt only for Christian rights, Muslims here will say, “if they’re your people, take them with you.” But if Americans care about my Muslim friend’s wife, the Muslims will be tongue-tied. They won’t know how to argue with you about that.
Armin Rosen: Do you think things can possibly get better for Christians in Egypt?
Ramez Atallah: If liberal Muslims get what they want, it will be better for us. That’s the dream of the revolution. Your real focus should be on those people. Because if they get their freedom, we will get even more freedom. But if they don’t get freedom, we’re goners.
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Very interesting MJT. But it does seem he doesn’t really represent the views of the Copts. He seems to be a bit of a tiny minority within the Christian minority. Why was it so hard to get an interview with a Copt? Just curious….
A very interesting, thought-provoking interview.
As usual, Mr. Toten does real reporting: finds people who actually know a lot about something important and/or interesting, and lets them speak. As opposed to the usual reporter, who much rather tell us what HE thinks about issues he knows little to nothing about.
I wouldn’t say American Bible Societies don’t know how to sell Bibles; it’s more of a saturation issue than anything else. Anyone here who wants a Bible and doesn’t have one generally has little trouble getting one for free or finding a free electronic copy on the internet.
Wow…great interview. I learned a lot, and it appears to make sense. Keep up the great work. I’ll hit the tip jar as soon as I can.
Egypt was unable to sell the full amount they wished, and had to discount the bonds, resulting in a yield above the nominal coupon rate, which themselves are stratospheric.
Spengler is right. Egypt is a basket case economically,…without foreign aid, whoever wins the elections which are starting today will lead a quickly bankrupt country. With foreign aid, they limp along, but will need more and more as the tourism industry disappears, natural gas sales disappear, and I expect Suez Canal revenues to decrease.
http://news.yahoo.com/egypt-sells-3-5-bonds-154027083.html
“CAIRO (Reuters) – Egypt’s central bank said on Monday it had sold reopened 3-year and 5-year bonds worth 4 billion Egyptian pounds, below the 5 billion pounds it had offered..
It sold 2 billion pounds of reopened 3-year bonds maturing on October 18, 2014 for which it had offered a coupon of 14 percent. The yield ranged from 15.20 to 15.85 percent.
It also sold 2 billion pounds of reopened 5-year bonds maturing on October 25, 2016 that had a coupon of 14.25 percent. The yield ranged from 15.20 to 16.0 percent…”
But the people who are going to get the brunt of it are my Muslim friends. They will suffer more.
No. They won’t.
My wife will not be forced to wear a veil by the Muslim Brotherhood. By the Salafists maybe, but not the Muslim Brotherhood. But the Brotherhood would force my wife to wear a veil if we were Muslims. My Muslim friends’ wives will be forced to wear veils while mine won’t. There will be discrimination against Muslims by Muslims.
It’s one thing to force people within a religion to comply with strict interpretations of scripture and teachings and another thing entirely to force people who are of another religion to do the same. And besides, Christian women in Iran are already required to wear the veil, and to comply with the IRI’s other religious laws. I’m pretty sure your interview subject understands the difference in status and protections the Christians in Egypt do/will have versus that of Muslims so what’s he on about claiming Muslims will “suffer more”? I don’t think he actually believes that at all. I think he’s just saying this because he wants as much freedom for Muslims as possible because he thinks some small part of that might transfer to the Christian community.
But if they don’t get freedom, we’re goners.
OK, so he knows what’s coming. Why is he hanging around waiting for it? Especially since he’s already lived abroad and speaks English? Does he suffer from irrational optimism? Does he think the 14 Muslims in Egypt who aren’t stone age savages with the mentality of Yosef Stalin might actually emerge victorious, and that even if they do emerge victorious due to lots of Egyptian Christians praying for them that they aren’t going to get blown up or lynched by angry mobs of the aforementioned stone age savages? Egypt’s all kinds of fucked up on a cultural level and wishful thinking may help people sleep better at night but it’s not going to change the future. Not in Egypt.
“I think he’s just saying this because he wants as much freedom for Muslims as possible because he thinks some small part of that might transfer to the Christian community.”
I concur with Craig here. I think this guy — and I gather this from both interviews — is very happy to ride in the back of the bus. Yes, he’s correct that there are very wealthy Copts — the Sawiris family comes to mind — but the overall status of Christians in Egypt or ANY Muslim Arab state is to be second-class citizens. I also don’t agree with this “concern” over Muslim-on-Muslim persecution. There is no evidence that Arabs outside Algeria had the slightest concern for the some 120,000 Algerian men, women, and children ruthlessly slaughtered during the Algerian civil war of the 1990s. Arabs were also indifferent to the genocide and ethnic cleansing carried out by Omar al-Bashir against the Muslims of Darfur. But one mention of Israel and they go ape-sh—.
PS: I don’t want to make it seem like I completely disagree with everything Ramez Atallah is saying. He makes some good points but I tend to comment only on what I disagree with
Ramez Atallah: The big struggle here is not between Christians and Muslims, but between Muslims and Muslims.
It’s not really so much of a “problem” though, is it? Unless you are one of those people who thinks Egypt has a chance at liberal (more or less) democracy. To me, it seems that Egypt has two possible futures:
1) More or less the same thing they had before only without Mubarak and without the US as an ally.
2) An Islamist system of some sort, the most extreme of which is potentially full on theocracy which would lead to Taliban Afghanistan and not IRI Iran since Egyptians are culturally so backwards and the country is so poor.
So, where’s the problem at for Egyptian Muslims? A solid majority of Egyptian Muslims say they want Sharia law and they want forceful imposition of Islamic rules and traditions so for the solid majority either of these outcomes would be acceptable, no? Ramez Atallah is describing a problem that’s not a REAL problem. Except for non-Muslims.
I need you to please understand that Muslims hate it when the West speaks up for Christians. They absolutely despise it and we become the victims.
I think westerners who think the west has a duty to protect Christians in the middle east should read that sentence very carefully.
“The story of how Christians became wealthy is very ironic. We weren’t allowed to be in politics or in government or hold many important positions in medicine, dentistry, and so on. So we went into business instead where there is more money.”
Very ironic indeed, because it’s similar to how Jews (completely deservedly) came to prominence in banking and business in Christian Europe.
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/middle-east/egypt/111125/caroline-sinz-french-journalist-sexually-assaulted-tahrir-square-egypt
Is raping women journalists the new fad in Egypt? At least one comment purports to be from a Tahrir Square “liberal” and apologizes…
This interview was fascinating. Mr. Atallah reveals a mind-set that is certainly non-American in its presuppositions, but we Americans would be foolhardy to dismiss his views for that reason. He may have some opinions that are colored by his personal situation (who doesn’t?), but I will be thinking about this interview for a very long time.
Kudos to you, Michael. One of your most fascinating interviews yet.
Interesting interview Michael. I’m not sure where I would put this guy in the spectrum of “Christians” in Egypt. Where would you?
Ramez Atallah: “Like I told you before, Islam is very close to people’s identity, like your gender is for you.”
[I have a hard time seeing Islam as anything like gender for what should be self-evident reasons.]
“Arabic is the only language in the world that has been frozen for 1400 years.”
[Egyptian students have no trouble discussing complex and nuanced philosophical topics in universities without the filter of religion. Yes, the balance might be different than NYU because of differing general sentiment but terms exist in Arabic to translate Western concepts and "study" our more secular viewpoints. Its not like liberal Egyptians can't make sense in Arabic. The Western-led international economic system which many Arabs across MENA and the ME seek investment/trade/aid from are based on post 18th, 19th century western concepts such as property, contracts, rule of law and redress. I also note Ramez using the tern pandemonium. Yes, chaos.]
Ramez Atallah: “There is a disdain. We get humiliated in schools and universities. There is a sense in the U.S. that Evangelicals are culturally dominant, but we’re a hated group.”
[Yes, the government doesn't discriminate, but I do. I support a general sentiment that the most powerful leader in the world ought not think that the Apocalypse is an inevitability in which everything in the existing universe, time itself ends so Jesus-believing homo sapiens in the Milky Way can enter heaven and everything else is damned to hell. The question is which is better, to be a fringe in a reason-based secular society or second class in a religious society? I second Michael's emotion, but at this rate we're all on track to becoming second class to other advancing nations in the world (which is an entirely different point).]
Ramez Atallah: “My point is, what will the government listen to more? Will America get a better result by pressing for freedom for Christians or freedom for Muslims?”
[What government, the military? Or is Ramez referring to the election going on now in Egypt that several liberal groups and women's groups are boycotting? The outcome will predictably put the Muslim Brotherhood on the map less than four years after Obama demanded a seat for them at his Cairo Speech. The Grand Mufti would be proud of the due diligence and determination. They got Sadat and put Mubarak in a cage. Both were relatively clandestine operations. Hamas now has a supply chain that stretches from Tripoli to Beirut.
Sorry, but religious intolerance trumps the stupidity of the majority of a State electing a religious government that then oppresses them. So we should pick between a good Arab and a bad one? Would we back a civil war? That would be worse than Iraq. Ramez logic says the Brotherhood is good relative Salafists. Western concepts of justice paint a scale of sovereign legitimacy relative to an ideal of freedom and liberty. Ramez postulates a justice based on the "realism" of the lessor of evils. Quite a different sentiment than the Kurds. As a Christian, Ramez should know all about sacrifice for the Lord. When the Mufti wanted to kill all the Jews the British banned from Palestine. He went to Egypt. After his days with Hitler he returned. The Muslim Brotherhood says it's all about economic reform. LOL Here is comes. There will be "votes" giving the Islamists a majority and then Liberals here will make the argument for legitimacy as we sell M-1 and frigate to the military that hasn't said it would hand over power to an Islamist government. I can't wait for the media spin as Liberals in the west seem more the MB's marketing agents rather than defenders of minorities and truth in journalism. Moderate is linguistically moved off-center intentionally with respect to Islamists to accommodate the ME and MENA demographics of increasing disequilibrium. I suppose Roosevelt should have demanded from Hitler better treatment by his government of Germans than the Jews. Defending the Jews would have made their lives worse and gotten the Germans angrier. Yes, I guess its all relative to the predictable outcomes. Maybe its better the military is reformed and remains a natural counter to Islamist pretensions, but that would be a dirty secret Erdogan is trying to sweep under his Turkish rig. Note the initial conditions in which the new Muslim Brotherhood butterfly soon will flapping its wings as four rockets sail into Israel from Lebanon. The Brotherhood has been very active from Syria, Turkey, Egypt, Libya etc.]
From your link, del:
“A few people tried to help me but didn’t succeed. I was lynched. It was about three-quarters of an hour before they got me out. I thought I was going to die.”
Sounds familiar. After what happened to laura Logan, why on earth would any female journalist be anyplace near Tahrir Square? Why would any western female journalist be in Egypt at all? Or any western female, for that matter? Egypt is no place for women, and I pity women unfortunate enough to have been born Egyptian but for God’s sake why hasn’t the word gotten out yet that women should not be traveling to Egypt voluntarily?
Is raping women journalists the new fad in Egypt?
We only hear about the journalists, del. Did you catch where Laura Logan spoke of how many letters she had received from women who’d been subjected to the same treatment she had been, or even worse?
Got this link from yours:
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/middle-east/egypt/111124/journalist-mona-eltahawy-allegedly-sexually-abused-eg
She was released with an apology and a promise of an investigation, the AP reported. It seems she was abused by police. At least she doesn’t have to worry about being raped by her fellow revolutionaries the way western women do. Hell of a country when every guy including the cops thinks he has the right to rape women whenever he feels like it. I guess trying to report a rape in Egypt has got to be on the top ten list of stupidest things a woman could do, eh?
Maxtrue,
Ramez Atallah: “Like I told you before, Islam is very close to people’s identity, like your gender is for you.”
[I have a hard time seeing Islam as anything like gender for what should be self-evident reasons.]
I’m assuming he means culturally. I’m also assuming that Islam plays at least a large a role in the culture of Islamic countries as Christianity does in the West, and there’s no getting away from the Christian underpinnings of Western culture no matter how hard people try.
What happens when a woman reports a rape in a sharia-based state (in this case Afghanistan, our good friend and strong ally), while lacking the required 4 eyewitnesses to prove her allegation:
“…The documentary told the story of a 19-year-old prisoner called Gulnaz.
After she was raped, she was charged with adultery. Her baby girl, born following the rape, is serving her sentence with her.
“At first my sentence was two years,” Gulnaz said, as her baby coughed in her arms. “When I appealed it became 12 years. I didn’t do anything. Why should I be sentenced for so long?”
Stories like hers are tragically typical, according to Heather Barr, of Human Rights Watch, who is carrying out research among Afghan female prisoners.
“It would be reassuring to think that the stories told in this film represent aberrations or extreme case,” she said. “Unfortunately that couldn’t be further from the truth.”…”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-15678935
I generally distrust Orla Guerin, a hamas shill/whore while covering Israel, and the bbc, but in this case they are reporting a story with an opposite spin to what I would expect from them (I expect a whitewash, they provide an indictment), and the direct quote from the HRW person is what I focus on.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45477062/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/#.TtUhvFZAUTA
Craig, still, I find comparing religious belief with sexual drives and behavior beyond basic social codes such as “family and marriage”. I think having a penis or vagina a bit more obvious and fundamental than the division of the world into infidels and Muslims. Seems to me most things in Islam distinguish between the superior (male) and the inferior (female). No wonder Ramez makes his observation, though it is merely a reflection of how oppressed nature is in the Islamic model of reality.
Yes, does the plight of women and OUR defending them, make life worse for Egyptian women? There IS something to be said for Craig’s simplicity of principles.
Christians have largely gotten over their purticanical attitude though Ramez seems to have held on to his.
“Craig, still, I find comparing religious belief with sexual drives and behavior beyond the basic social codes such as “family and marriage” rather blind.”
Things are getting hotter as Hizb’Allah probably fired rockets at Israel this morning on orders from Assad. Blast reported above near Iranian nuclear facility. I guess the conflict is on and screws are tightening. I don’t see Erdogan blasting Israel or Cyprus. Iranians breech the British Embassy on Tehran as Pakistan refuses to join the peace talks in Afghanistan. Russia warns NATO and other nations from actions against Assad.
Quite a mess isn’t it Max
I have to laugh. I remember just 3 years ago and new Prez entered the White House and we were told over & over how he would heal the world.
I wonder what went wrong? (-;
From the BBC headline story about the embassy attack:
Iran expressed “regret” over the attack on the embassy. The Foreign Office has summoned an Iranian diplomat in London.
Bullshit. The seizure of the US embassy in Tehran is celebrated as one of the triumphs of the IRI. The British should hire the Israelis to assassinate whatever smug bastard decided to sneeringly offer “regret” over this deliberate act of war. The taunting tone out of the IRI needs to stop and how better to make that happen than to have the people issuing the taunts be dead?
British Prime Minister David Cameron said: “The attack on the British embassy in Tehran today was outrageous and indefensible.”
Actually it was entirely predictable. What’s outrageous and indefensible is the fact that the IRI is still a member of the United Nations when it’s been egregiously violating the Vienna Conventions since its inception.
After a series of ups and downs in relations following the 1979 Iranian revolution, London and Tehran restored full diplomatic ties in 1988.
Why? Why does any civilized country have diplomatic relations with a regime that has a long history of taking diplomats hostage? That’s like inviting a known pedophile over to babysit your kids.
He said those responsible for the attack must be prosecuted.
Yes, OK, sure. There’s an even slimmer chance of that than there is of anyone being held to account for what was done to Lara Logan in Egypt. Folks who took American embassy staff hostage went on to hold prestigious positions in the IRI as a reward for their “contributions”.
You want to prosecute the assholes, Cameron? Get Obama to invade. We can have one of these for Iran:
http://www.defendamerica.mil/iraq/iraqi55/
Not too many of those idiots left are there?
And while I’m in a ranting mood:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15953414
Facebook has agreed to tighten privacy controls as part of a settlement with US regulators over abuse of user data.
Everyone has a sense of humor today! There’s about as much chance of this fucker Zuckerburg tightening facebook’s privacy instead of accidentally selling his member’s personal info to the highest bidder as there is of the Iranians prosecuting the embassy perps.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15950624
An obscure Islamist group called the Abdullah Azzam Brigades said it had carried out the attack.
More smartasses. Even if there were people who didn’t quite catch on to the shell game being played with the “obscure” groups who commit terrorist attacks that nobody knows anything about, who thinks Hezbollah would permit a rival group to operate on its home turf that it has no control over?
See what happens when you spend 30 years winking and nudging when the assholes get out of line, international community? They think you’re retarded.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-11-29/praise-arab-spring-except-for-anti-semitism-jeffrey-goldberg.html
Yes and they think we don’t even see the antisemitism.
Let’s hope clarity follows chaos….
#23
So…Max, what else is new?
Did Goldberg just figure this out recently? Does he not read? Oh may be just the NYT or the Guardian.
“Yes and they think we don’t even see the antisemitism.”
Well I can tell you Max, that the excrement at the CBC news here in Canada don’t.
Their heads are too far up their butts to see anything but their own navel.
Thank you very much Michael Totten and Armin Rosen. A very, very interesting interview indeed.
Mr Atallah is whistling in the graveyard. He’s very proud of the fact that Christians make up 10 percent of the population in Egypt but own 32 percent of the wealth. See how long that lasts once the Brotherhood takes over. Those billionaires he’s so proud of may not lose everythng they own, but the Christians who make more meager livings are screwed.
“They want Egyptians Christians to be supported and protected by an Egyptian system, not by foreigners, so we suffer when the West stands up for our rights. It doesn’t help.
It helped a bit when Mubarak was president because he was one man. He could be pressured. He might resent it, but he could make decisions and eventually he could be talked into it. Now we get blamed when the West supports us. We’re called traitors. They now say we belong to the West.”
Obama has taken a lot of heat for not supporting more openly the Iranian protestors, but I have assumed that the issue expressed in the lines above were affecting the policy. Of course, if I were running against him, I would say he has no guts, supports our enemies, but not our friends, blah, blah, blah; but there just might be some discretion involved as well. You have to make a judgment about the proper time when the support will do more good, than harm. Obviously he would rather deal with the secular Iranians, but does not want to get them destroyed by their enemies before they have enough strength to really topple the Mullahs.
“I need you to please understand that Muslims hate it when the West speaks up for Christians. They absolutely despise it and we become the victims.”
this is just more of the same old song of the way to peace with muslims is just don’t do, say or think anything that will offend them and they won’t kill you (submit or die)
michael why don’t you interview some of the coptics who had loved ones slaugheted when they were protesting the burning of a church in southern egypt and see if they agree with atallah views
Craig 16. “I’m assuming he means culturally. I’m also assuming that Islam plays at least a large a role in the culture of Islamic countries as Christianity does in the West, and there’s no getting away from the Christian underpinnings of Western culture no matter how hard people try.”
I disagree Craig. Growing up in the Bible belt the way I did I think I have a pretty good perspective of what a VERY Christian society can be. Living in Kuwait for a year now gives me pretty good perspective of a Sharia law country that is overrun with Egyptians.
The Muslims, even ones I would consider pretty liberal, are far more into their religion than all but the most extreem Christian group I’ve ever encountered. They even seem to know much more about Islam than the average christian knows about Christianity. If anything, the west has been trying to get away from Christianity over the last few decades whereas the Muslim countries are now moving toward a MORE Muslim society. We are diverging even further. As American and the west liberalizes, the Muslims adopt Sharia with a democratic vote.
Yes, Tim, but I’m talking about Christianity’s impact on western culture not the religiosity of the inhabitants of the west
And I think it is impossible to overstate the impact that Christianity has had on western culture. The west would not even exist in its current form if it wasn’t for the unifying effect Christianity had on Europe, and without the teachings of Jesus there is no humanist philosophy and without that there is no modern liberal democracy. I don’t know where we’d be at if Europeans hadn’t adopted Christianity during the first millennia AD things would be very different. Anyway, it’s my belief that Islam has had at least as large a cultural impact as Christianity has had. In fact, I’d go further and say it’s had a larger impact. There’s virtually no trace of the pre-Islamic cultures in Muslim countries of the middle-east with the exception of Iran and possibly the Kurds and the Berbers.
Craig: without the teachings of Jesus there is no humanist philosophy and without that there is no modern liberal democracy.
I think you momentarily forgot that the Western democratic tradition is much older than Christianity. The roots of our tradition can be traced to three places: Athens, Rome, and Jerusalem. Two of those were pagan. Some of our most important buildings in Washington DC are modeled after those of the Roman Empire.
I’m pretty sure that without Christianity we’d be liberal democratic pagans, but we could obviously argue about that forever.
This guy puts me in mind of the blacks on the plantation telling others to not fight back as it would only get them all whipped. Don’t fight it, just do the job and maybe live to see another day. Oh, and if you’re really good you might get to be a house ni**er and get to work in the kitchen or serve the master his dinner. Just don’t make waves, shut up and maybe they wont notice we’re here.
Michael,
I think you momentarily forgot that the Western democratic tradition is much older than Christianity. The roots of our tradition can be traced to three places: Athens, Rome, and Jerusalem.
Athens, yes. I won’t bother arguing with you about the other two but I don’t agree they had what we’d call “democracy”.
Our modern liberal democracy is not based on ancient traditions though. It was not the philosophies of ancient Greece that inspired western democracy, but the philosophy of humanism which sprang up during the enlightenment. Which itself was a Christian reaction to the iniquity of the Christian(Catholic) clergy and how far they’d strayed from the innately humanist teachings of Christ.
Some of our most important buildings in Washington DC are modeled after those of the Roman Empire.
Yes, and we lifted quite a bit of the structure of our government from the Romans as well. However, the underlying principles are entirely different.
I’m pretty sure that without Christianity we’d be liberal democratic pagans, but we could obviously argue about that forever.
Well, you can be as sure of that as you like but Christianity was probably the single core component that virtually everything political and social revolved around in Europe for 1000 years or more and that was the thousand years which immediately preceded our evolution of liberal democracy so I think your assumption that we’d have ended up at the same place is quite presumptuous. But since neither of us can set back the clock to the 5th century AD and let it roll forward 1500 years without Christianity in Europe to see what happens you’re right that there’s no point in arguing about it
However, if your claim is that religious beliefs in a society have role in the formulation of culture then that’s an argument you need to have with some anthropologists because they disagree with you about that pretty intensely.
PS for a nitpick (sorry):
I think you momentarily forgot that the Western democratic tradition is much older than Christianity. The roots of our tradition can be traced to three places: Athens, Rome, and Jerusalem.
Ancient Greece and ancient Rome both predate any concept of “western”. They cannot be considered as part of western culture because there was no such thing as western culture back then. The Romans and the Greeks both would have been appalled at being lumped into the same cultural grouping as the ignorant savages in the hinterlands. Not to mention the fact that the Greeks didn’t even have any knowledge of most the peoples who later became “Western”. Romans fared a little better but they had very little interaction with anyone past Gaul and the Germanic tribes that later went on to found England and France were completely unknown to them until made themselves known by invading Britain and Gaul.
As for Jerusalem… well, we don’t need to argue about whether the middle-east is part of the west do we? But that does bring up a question. Where did Israel’s democracy come from? I would argue the large number of European Jews who settled in Israel brought it with them from western culture which brings us back to issue of cultural values and their influence on minorities even amongst a hostile majority.
Ramez Atallah: “Like I told you before, Islam is very close to people’s identity, like your gender is for you.”
Like it or not Islam is the defining characteristic of Arab culture (do we have to argue about this?) and that Arab Christians are also part of Arab culture.
Craig: Ancient Greece and ancient Rome both predate any concept of “western.”
True, but irrelevent. We are the inheritors of the Greek and Roman tradition while the Chinese, for instance, are not.
we don’t need to argue about whether the middle-east is part of the west do we?
Israel is, or at least partly. If you don’t think so, you haven’t been to Tel Aviv. It’s Miami on the Med. Beirut is an east-west hybrid, but Tel Aviv isn’t.
Anyway, you know as well as anyone else here that American culture is often described as Judeo-Christian. And Judaism and Christianity both come from Jerusalem.
The reason I singled out Athens, Rome, and Jerusalem is because they are the places where our philosophy, politics, and morality all originally come from. The fact that Jerusalem is in the Middle East and that ancient Greeks and Romans didn’t think of themselves as “western” doesn’t change that.
It seems that many people posting here have missed a valid point – that human rights are what Christians should strive for, regardless of the religions or cultures involved. Ramez stated that he is an “Evangelical Christian” so it would be natural that his focus is on spreading the word of G-d and to help ease suffering of those around him, especially for Muslims.
As a Christian, I believe that when we die, we will go to heaven because of our faith in Jesus. So wouldn’t it make sense to concentrate our efforts at helping Muslims (and others) to believe in the gift of salvation?
Also, in almost every poor country that I have visited there is a hypersensitivity about equality. Not so much as “Well I should have what he has” mentality, but more of a “If you are offering an opportunity to the person across the street – why did you leave me out?” or “What makes your family, neighborhood or clan more special than mine to at least not be considered as well?”
Craig: Like it or not Islam is the defining characteristic of Arab culture (do we have to argue about this?) and that Arab Christians are also part of Arab culture.
We do not need to argue about this. It’s obviously true. And it explains many things.
Arab Christians have things in common with Islamists that non-Arab Muslims do not. This was made abundantly clear to me when I went from Lebanon to the Kurdistan region of Iraq.
heres’ a good article showing how christians are not presecuted in egypt. but then i am sure atallah will say it is all a lie
Coptic Christian Student Murdered By Classmates for Wearing a Cross
http://www.aina.org/news/20111030133621.htm
Micheal,
True, but irrelevent. We are the inheritors of the Greek and Roman tradition while the Chinese, for instance, are not.
I think that’s only a pretension on our part. Both the Romans and the Greeks were far more closely involved with the middle-east and Africa than with Europe. Particularly Northern Europe, which they were practically oblivious to. And both were closely intertwined with Persia. The Greeks, as they went into decline, were even referred to as the “Eastern Roman Empire” and that while Western/Eastern Roman Empire division is where the terms come from in the first place. Of course, both empires collapsed which led to the Dark Ages in Europe which didn’t end until Europe’s barbarians became sufficiently advanced on their own to replicate some of what the Romans had.
(re: middle-east being part of the west) Israel is, or at least partly. If you don’t think so, you haven’t been to Tel Aviv. It’s Miami on the Med. Beirut is an east-west hybrid, but Tel Aviv isn’t.
But it certainly wasn’t in ancient times and you were talking as if western traditions were an extension of things that had been happening in Jerusalem thousands of years ago. The transmission of culture went the other way, and only recently.
Anyway, you know as well as anyone else here that American culture is often described as Judeo-Christian. And Judaism and Christianity both come from Jerusalem.
True, but Christianity was non-existent in Jerusalem after the death of Jesus. Christianity took hold first in what is now Turkey (the Armenians were the first to adopt Christianity as a people) and from there to Rome. And from there to Europe. The Holy Land has never been culturally Christian. Even now I doubt you’d find any Israelis who call their culture “Judeo-Christian”
The reason I singled out Athens, Rome, and Jerusalem is because they are the places where our philosophy, politics, and morality all originally come from. The fact that Jerusalem is in the Middle East and that ancient Greeks and Romans didn’t think of themselves as “western” doesn’t change that.
I will only agree with you on the “morality” part, and only because Christianity originated in Jerusalem. Our politics evolved from the germanic tribal systems and our philosophy such as it is was homegrown, probably as a result of Europe being such a war-torn plague-ravaged hateful and violent place for so long that was the evolutionary adaptation that was required for Europeans to survive as a people. The Enlightenment did not come at a time when people were fat and sassy, sitting around sipping tea and discussing abstracts you know
Craig, might I remind you that the Christian Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek? (The Old Testament in Hebrew and the New in Greek.) And a large number of Western European languages, including French, are descended from the language of the Roman Empire. You can’t scrub Athens, Rome, and Jerusalem out of the West. They are not the entirety of the West. Oslo is also Western, and so is Seattle. But they are the oldest places we can trace our heritage back to. We don’t, for instance, trace anything at all back to ancient India, China, the Incan Empire, and so on. Aristotle is one of ours.
Micheal,
Craig, might I remind you that the Christian Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek? (The Old Testament in Hebrew and the New in Greek.)
The Old Testament is not the Christian scripture. It is Jewish scripture, and it was included in the Christian Bible at a later date as a reference. No part of the Old Testament was written by the disciples of Jesus. As for the new Testament being written in Greek that’s because Anatolia (where it was written) was inhabited by Greeks at the time. The word “Christ” is Greek, by the way. It was also written in Latin when the (western) Romans converted to Christianity, and it wasn’t written in English at all until the 17th century AD. I don’t really see how any of this is relevant to the discussion, though.
And a large number of Western European languages, including French, are descended from the language of the Roman Empire.
French, Spanish and Italian, yes. Hardly a large number and not very surprising considering the Romans lived in Italy and had the only existing written language in Western Europe.
You can’t scrub Athens, Rome, and Jerusalem out of the West.
I’m not trying to. I’m merely pointing out that western culture has no more connection to the Ancient Romans than Arab culture does to the Ancient Egyptians. I think you’d laugh of an Arab tried to claim the ancient Egyptians as their cultural forefathers wouldn’t you? Why isn’t it equally funny when a Westerner tries to claim ancient Greece or ancient Rome?
They are not the entirety of the West.
Well, besides the fact that “the West” didn’t even exist as a cultural entity at the time there’s still the issue that the Romans and the Greeks themselves would have considered that they were part of the Mediterranean culture of North Africa and the Middle East. The most obvious example of that is the Marc Antony/Julius Caesar/Cleopatra(who was a Greek) drama but the history books are full of examples of the Romans and the Greeks looking south and east to the heart of their empires, not north and west.
Oslo is also Western, and so is Seattle. But they are the oldest places we can trace our heritage back to.
Well, you mentioned Oslo. Did any norseman ever encounter a Roman in ancient times? Is there any record of that? The Greek historian Strabo merely speculated about how might be inhabiting lands north of the Rhine, and the Roman historian Tacitus referred to the south shore of the Baltic as “Terra Incognita”. What possible heritage did the ancient Norse share with ancient Romans and ancient Greeks when they never even knew such people existed? Any “sharing” was one direction, and it was done a thousand years later.
We don’t, for instance, trace anything at all back to ancient India, China, the Incan Empire, and so on. Aristotle is one of ours.
He wouldn’t have considered you or me to be one of his, though
Take a look at “A German’s view of Islam”.
Then it will be clearer than mud
Preliminary voting results are in and it looks like Ramez Atalla called the contest correctly: it’s a battle between the Brotherhood and the Salafis. The pro-democratic liberals who brought about the revolution have been pushed to the sidelines.
“The Old Testament is not the Christian scripture. It is Jewish scripture, and it was included in the Christian Bible at a later date as a reference. No part of the Old Testament was written by the disciples of Jesus.”
Most of that is literally true but you are far underplayiing the importance of the OT to Christianity by deeming it merely a “reference”. The prophecies used to justify the belief that Jesus was the Messiah came from the OT, as did the very word Messiah itself. Many controversies involving fundamentalist Christians – public display of the Ten Commandments, literal interpretation of Genesis – revolve around the OT. Not that I’m biased towards the OT or anything :^).
43. Solomon2 “Preliminary voting results are in and it looks like Ramez Atalla called the contest correctly: it’s a battle between the Brotherhood and the Salafis. The pro-democratic liberals who brought about the revolution have been pushed to the sidelines.”
Are you sure? Or did the pro-democratic “liberals” get exactly what they wanted? I mean, they HAD to know that the majority of their country would vote the way it has. Just because we westerners think “democracy” means more personal freedoms doesn’t mean everyone does. I think they got exactly what they wanted!!
” Or did the pro-democratic “liberals” get exactly what they wanted? I mean, they HAD to know that the majority of their country would vote the way it has -”
The ruling class’ plan, openly expressed to us pro-democracy activists four years ago, was that in case of revolution they would ally with the MB. Yet the MB are not the Salafis – at least not yet. We’ll see what happens – and who can really command street power if the MB tries to exceed its mandate.
You can’t be a true democrat unless you’re willing to cede power and bow out gracefully by democratic processes. We should thank the Federalists for setting such a good example, even though that meant the country suffered eight years of corrupt Jacksonian rule.
Gary,
Most of that is literally true but you are far underplayiing the importance of the OT to Christianity by deeming it merely a “reference”.
Yes, I do that deliberately because a lot of Christians don’t seem to understand that Jesus brought a new covenant and the only thing that separates Christians from Jews is that the Jews who accepted it became Christians and the ones who didn’t remained Jews. In my estimation it’s a catastrophic error for Christians to adhere to the Old Testament. That’s not the Christian covenant. So, I downplay its importance in Christianity to make a point
Tim, Solomon2: I came to believe during the Kefaya protests back in 2006 or whenever that the majority of Egyptians who wanted Mubarak gone were actually most upset with Egypt being pro-West and pro-US and not playing an active role in the Palestinian cause and blamed all that on Mubarak. That’s why I went from initially supporting them at the time to not supporting them at all. They can kiss my ass and I hope they get the war they are looking for.
Solomon2: We’ll see what happens – and who can really command street power if the MB tries to exceed its mandate.
Why do we have to wait and see? Is there some doubt? Do you, Solomon2, wonder who has the real street power in Egypt? Who is it you see rolling the MB if they “exceed their mandate”? When has an Islamist group in any Muslim country ever been pushed aside by ordinary citizens who disapproved? Maybe you think Egypt can be the country that sets the precedent? If so, why? You are aware that Egypt is inhabited by Egyptians, right?
Solomon2: You can’t be a true democrat unless…
The Egyptians are examples of true democrats now?
“Maybe you think Egypt can be the country that sets the precedent? If so, why? You are aware that Egypt is inhabited by Egyptians, right?”
You said it. Egyptians are Egyptian first, and identify themselves by their religion second. That’s the opposite of the Pakistanis, and it’s a constructive nationalism rather than the destructive one of the Nazis or Palestinian Arabs. It’s closer to how the Turks undermined and dissolved the Caliphate in the name of nationalism.
“The Egyptians are examples of true democrats now?”
For today.
Solomon2, there isn’t a spits worth of difference between the mentality of an Egyptian and the mentality of a Pakistani. In fact if anything the Egyptians are worse when it comes to everything bad that I associate with Muslims. I really and truly don’t understand how you can say Egyptians are more similar to Turks and completely different from Pakistanis. We obviously aren’t on the same wavelength at all. I’m just going to assume you’ve been influenced by some Egyptians you know personally because you damn sure aren’t forming your opinions based on the observable facts on the ground.
“The Egyptians are examples of true democrats now?”
For today.
Now you are trying to be funny
I wonder what you think would happen in the US if Americans were the same sort of liberal democrats that Egyptians are?
“you damn sure aren’t forming your opinions based on the observable facts on the ground.”
I’ve met Egyptians and Pakistanis but yes, I base my opinion mostly on historical analysis. Egyptians have a strong nationalism; that of Pakistanis is weak. The frailty of my interpretation is that my grasp of the current state of both societies is limited by what is on the Internet.
Solomon2,
I’ve met Egyptians and Pakistanis but yes, I base my opinion mostly on historical analysis. Egyptians have a strong nationalism; that of Pakistanis is weak.
Not much to hang your hat – or your analysis – on, even if what you say is true which I doubt. How is extreme nationalism a plus for democracy or for anything else, in a region that has a long history of nationalism and sectarianism as a justification for extreme violence?
And you know what? The Nazis were strongly nationalist, too.
The frailty of my interpretation is that my grasp of the current state of both societies is limited by what is on the Internet.
And by “internet” I’m guessing you mean blogs. Again, not much to hang your hat (analysis) on. Especially after you said before you hardly watch TV and I assume you don’t pay much kind to online media outlets either since those two go kind of hand in hand. Please correct me if I’m wrong. Basing your assessment on what a handful of people are saying on blogs instead of what many thousands of people are actually doing on the street leaves me unimpressed. Sorry, Solomon2. I’ve seen you around on the Arab blogs here and there for as long as I’ve been around on them so I know you are paying attention to them, at least. However, you strike me as somebody who is dangerously naive. I hope we don’t have folks who subscribe to your type of thinking in any decision making capacity in the US government.
Solomon2: Egyptians have a strong nationalism; that of Pakistanis is weak.
This is true. Egypt is one of only two Arab countries with a strong non-tribal nationalism. The other is Tunisia.
Strong nationalism is not necessarily imperialist. It has to do with identity. There are people in France who consider themselves Normans or Corsicans before being French; that doesn’t mean they’re out to kill and conquer.
“Basing your assessment on what a handful of people are saying on blogs instead of what many thousands of people are actually doing on the street”
Less blogs than foreign newspapers and forums. Which is why I spend time occasionally on the streets and at think-tanks, too. I know, it’s still weak; the weakness being that these people aren’t representative but self-selected or paid; yet they represented, until the Revolution, the politically active class.
“you strike me as somebody who is dangerously naive. I hope we don’t have folks who subscribe to your type of thinking in any decision making capacity in the US government.”
Maybe. I’m not in government, but I can’t see how your current policy prescription differs from mine: do nothing for now but prepare for things getting worse.