Before the Six Day War in June of 1967, the Syrian army built fortified bunkers on the ridge of the Golan Heights and fired sniper rifles, mortars, and artillery cannons at Israeli civilians below. The cities, farms, and kibbutzim on the shore of the Sea of Galilee, and in the wider region around it, were perilous places to live or even to visit when Syria commanded those heights.
“If they saw tractors down there,” Hadar Sela said after leading me to one of the bunkers, “or anything moving at all—even a child walking to the store to get milk—they opened fire. There were bunkers like this along the entire ridge of the Golan.”
Israelis control the ridge now, and they have since they seized it in 1967 during the war against the combined Arab armies of Syria, Jordan, and Egypt.
“Syria lost it fair and square,” she said.
The bunker she showed me is just a two-minute walk from her house on kibbutz Kfar Haruv, where she and her neighbors enjoy the spectacular formerly Syrian view of the Galilee down below.
Her family is part of a small but committed Israeli movement to settle the Golan Heights, partly in order to strengthen Israeli control for security reasons, but also because building and living on fresh, open, conquered land is an adventure.
Steps descend into a Syrian bunker overlooking the Galilee, Golan Heights
The Sea of Galilee from a Syrian bunker on the Golan Heights
“Nobody came to live on the Golan because it was comfortable or easy,” Hadar said. “I came twenty years later, in 1985. It may sound corny, but in the beginning it was out of a pioneering spirit. It really was, though I know that sounds unfashionable. We remind Israelis of simpler days here.”
Alongside the path to the bunker is a minefield marked off with barbed wire.
“People ask me how I could raise children in a minefield,” she said. “I always say that in Tel Aviv they teach their children not to step into traffic. Here we teach them not to step into minefields.”
Hadar and her significant other Reuven hosted me in their house and lent me their spare room for two nights. Their children have grown and built their own houses, so they had the space. I enjoyed their company as much as I was glad to leave Tel Aviv. The same infernal Eastern Hemisphere heat wave that set Russian forests on fire turned the Mediterranean Sea into a steam bath. The coastal air in Tel Aviv felt like soup on my skin even at five o’clock in the morning. The cooler mountain air of the Golan massaged the heat out of my muscles and back.
Hadar was born and raised in Britain. Reuven is a sabra, born and raised in Israel. “I have nowhere else to go,” he said, addressing his comments not to me so much as to those who think Israelis should go “back” to Poland and Germany. His parents were ethnically-cleansed from Libya and can never return.
The Golan Heights doesn’t feel like Israeli-occupied Syria when you’re there. At least it didn’t to me, not compared with the West Bank and Iraq, anyway.
Though the West Bank is technically disputed territory rather than occupied territory—it hasn’t belonged to anyone according to international law since the British left—parts of it feel like occupied territory, and it’s not exactly wrong to describe them that way. Iraq under American military rule felt occupied in a different way. Hadar and Reuven’s house on kibbutz Kfar Haruv just felt like Israel. There are no Palestinians on the Golan. And the Israelis who settled it come from a completely different part of the Zionist movement than the settlers in the West Bank. They are an entirely separate ideological species.
“I’ve never voted for a party to the right of Meretz,” Hadar said. Meretz, in many ways, is to the left of Israel’s left-wing Labor Party.
Hadar Sela looks into Syria from atop the Golan Heights
Reuven chuckled. “She’s not really that far to the left,” he said.
“Yes, I am,” she insisted.
Aside from her love for the democratic socialism of Israel’s kibbutzim, she didn’t actually sound all that left-wing to me, either. She even sounded to the right of Reuven in some ways.
“Before the first Intifada we didn’t think much of the Palestinians,” Reuven said. “They were just low-wage workers who commuted to Tel Aviv from refugee camps in Gaza or wherever. They didn’t have equal rights, and we didn’t care. It wasn’t until after the first Intifada that we saw them as human beings. We got what we deserved if you ask me.”
Hadar agreed in principle, but she wouldn’t go as far as he did. “I was nearly killed by Palestinians who threw rocks the size of small boulders at my car,” she said. “So don’t tell me the first Intifada was non-violent.”
Syria’s and Egypt’s failure in the 1973 Yom Kippur War, despite their strong performances at the beginning, finally convinced the Arabs that the Jewish state could not be destroyed by conventional means. The Israel Defense Forces had proved itself too hard a target, not just in 1973, but also in 1948 and 1967. And now that Israel was sitting on the Golan, the Syrians had very few soft Israeli targets to shoot at. They couldn’t even see the Galilee region, let alone shoot at it.
Later that same decade, however, Iran’s Shah Reza Pahlavi was overthrown in Tehran, and Ayatollah Khomeini’s Islamists came out on top in the post-revolutionary struggle for power. When Israel invaded South Lebanon in 1982 to oust Yasser Arafat’s Palestine Liberation Organization from the Lebanese-Israeli border area, Khomeini redeployed 1,500 men from battlefields in the Iran-Iraq war to Lebanon’s Bekaa Valley to arm, train, and equip his new overseas project—Hezbollah.
Syria’s then-ruler Hafez Assad did everything he could to help the Iranians out. If the Syrians couldn’t fight Israel from their side of the border, Hezbollah could do it for them in and from Lebanon. The front line then shifted from the Golan and the Galilee over to South Lebanon and the Israeli region below it.
Though the Golan physically looms over all this, it wasn’t hit all that hard by Hezbollah during the 2006 war. Israelis on the Golan, though, take a keener interest in Lebanon than Israelis who live farther away and out of Hezbollah’s rocket range—or at least Hezbollah’s rocket range in 2006. According to all the latest intelligence out of Lebanon, today Hezbollah can strike not only as far as Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, but all the way down to Eilat on the Red Sea in the far south of the country.
Reuven wanted to know what I thought about Lebanon after I told him I lived there during parts of 2005 and 2006. He was interested not only because he lives a short drive from the border, but also because he served there as a soldier for seven months in 1982.
He spent most of his time in the Chouf mountains among the Christians and Druze.
“Have you been to Jezzine?” he asked me.
I have.
“It is an amazing place,” he said to Hadar, who has never been there. “It’s like somebody lifted a village from Provence and dropped it in Lebanon.”
Jezzine, Lebanon
He fell in love with the country despite all the carnage.
“For the first few months everybody was really nice!” he said. “Everyone seemed to like us.” Then he laughed. I laughed. Hadar laughed.
“I can’t understand that place,” he said. “The Christians and Druze were shooting each other. They weren’t shooting at us, they were shooting each other. Most of the time they seemed to get along perfectly fine, but then Thursday or Monday would come along and they’d fight. Why? Why did they think their lives would get better if they shot at the neighbors?” He seemed genuinely baffled. “It is a crazy country.”
“I don’t care if they like me,” he added later, referring this time not to the Christians or Druze, but to the predominantly Shia south of the country. “I just want them to stop trying to kill me.”
*
Syria is only two years older than Israel. Like the Jewish state, it was forged upon the ruins of the Turkish Ottoman Empire after interim European powers withdrew from the region.
What is now Israel was still under the control of the British Mandate when Syria declared independence from the French Mandate in 1946. The British had control of the Sea of Galilee and wanted to keep it. So while the Golan Heights—which rises above the sea’s eastern shore—went to Syria, Britain kept control of the actual shoreline. The border was set at ten meters from the edge of the water. If the sea level rose or fell and the shoreline moved, the border moved with it.
So when Israel declared independence from the British Mandate in 1948, it acquired the sea’s eastern shore from Great Britain. Water is a precious resource in the Middle East, and the Syrians were not happy. They were enraged that the Jews achieved independence at all, and—along with the Egyptians, the Iraqis, and the Lebanese—immediately launched an aggressive war to destroy it.
They lost, of course, and Israel went on existing. Israel’s existence was in fact secured. Yet Syria seized control of the eastern shore of the sea by force a year later. That campaign was easy. Israel couldn’t defend an isolated ten-meter wide ribbon of land. Borders like that don’t work between countries at war. So the Syrians gained control of part of the Galilee even though they were not entitled to it, and they held it until Israel snapped up entire area after Syria, Egypt, and Jordan tried yet again to destroy the country in 1967.
An Israel village on the shore of the Sea of Galilee from atop the Golan Heights
The 1990s were supposed to be the decade that heralded peace. The Soviet Union had burst, and it looked like “the end of history,” such as it was, might even reach the Middle East. Yet shortly before the Oslo peace process broke down between Israelis and Palestinians, Israel’s peace talks with Syria hit the rocks.
Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered to return the Golan in 2000, but Syria’s Assad said no. Most Middle Eastern political analysts assume Assad never wanted a deal, that he merely went through the motions because it suited him at the time. Syria’s secular non-Muslim Alawite-dominated government needs a permanent state of war with Israel to survive in a country with a hostile Sunni majority. Resistance temporarily lends the regime the legitimacy it would otherwise lack. Assad needed an excuse, though, to say no when the Israeli government agreed to return the Golan for peace. And his excuse was that Israel would not give him the eastern shore of the sea.
Hafez Assad (right) during the Yom Kippur War in 1973
Syria’s internationally recognized border never included an inch of that shoreline, but Assad knew Israel would refuse to sign over the title, and he knew his own “street” would applaud him for insisting upon it. Israel can’t give back the Golan unless Syria will say yes. And Syria will not say yes. So the Golan remains in Israel’s hands, and Assad’s son Bashar still has a much-needed grievance to nurse.
The territory has now been in Israel’s hands twice as long as it was in Syria’s.
“The Alawite regime is the best guarantor that Israel will be able to keep the Golan,” Israel Eshed, head of the Golan Tourism Association, told me. He’s one of Hadar’s neighbors in a village up the road, and she took me to his house to meet him.
While the nature of the Alawite regime and its interests may well be the ultimate guarantor of Israeli control of the Golan, it wasn’t always this way. During the Yom Kippur War in 1973, Syria almost took it back.
“They reconquered more than half the Golan for four days during the war,” Eshed said. “They sent 100 tanks up the Valley of Tears.”
A tank on the Golan Heights left over from the Yom Kippur War
Egypt attacked Israel in the south at the same time, and the Israelis were entirely unprepared for it. Initially, it looked like they might actually lose, and by the end they lost more than 2,500 soldiers.
“What happened to Israeli civilians on the Golan who lived in the areas that were captured?” I asked.
“They were evacuated,” Eshed said, “before the Syrians took them. Otherwise the Jews here would have been massacred. There were Jewish villages on the Golan in ancient times, and again since the 1800s, but the Syrians massacred them in 1948, and they would have done it again in 1973 if they could.”
A menora at an ancient Jewish synagogue on the Golan that's slowly being rebuilt
“That war was deeply traumatizing for us,” Hadar said. “It still feels like a fresh wound here, like your Vietnam.”
War memorials are scattered from one end of the Golan to the other.
An Israeli memorial to fallen soldiers in the Yom Kippur War on the Golan Heights
“There are only two crossing points to the Golan from Syria,” Eshed said, “in the north and in the east. Thanks to the topography, we can easily hold off the Syrians in the southern Golan. And if they can’t take the Golan, they can’t invade Israel.”
The road up the southern Golan. That's Jordan in the background.
A tank trap on the Golan Heights. The boulders would be pushed onto the road in the event of a mechanized Syrian ground invasion.
Even so, he doesn’t believe holding onto the Golan Heights matters as much for Israeli security as it used to.
“Giving up the Golan would be bad for the Zionist movement,” he said. “Israelis love the Golan. We want to keep it.”
Security concerns aren’t entirely idle, however, not when the Golan looms so large over the otherwise vulnerable Galilee.
“We can’t act like Europeans in the Middle East,” Eshed said. “The Arabs don’t understand Yiddish.”
Hadar’s house on kibbutz Kfar Haruv is in the southern and all but impenetrable part of the Golan, and she accompanied me in my rental car on a drive north where we would meet Yehuda Harel, a former member of the Knesset, for lunch.
We passed a number of destroyed Syrian military bases.
“Have you heard of our famous spy Eli Cohen?” she asked me as I stepped out of the car to take pictures.
“Of course,” I said.
The Israelis sent him to Syria in 1962, and he worked his way very high up indeed in Damascus. For a while there he was the chief advisor to the minister of defense before he was found out and executed.
“I’m not sure if it’s true,” she said, “but many say it was his idea to have the Syrians plant eucalyptus trees on their bases when he came to the Golan. They grow fast, and he said they would provide shade for the soldiers during the summer. But what they also did was mark out military targets for the Israeli Air Force. Our pilots could easily see the trees from the skies.”
Destroyed Syrian barracks and eucalyptus trees
The pub where we met Yehuda Harel looked, felt, and operated exactly like a microbrewery in Seattle or Portland. He has lived in Israel during its entire history as a modern nation-state, though he lived in Damascus during World War II when his family temporarily relocated there from the British Mandate for Palestine.
“I was eight years old,” he said, “and I remember it very well. My father was there with the British army, and he brought the whole family with him. It was a small town then. Only around 300,000 people lived there. Now it’s more than a million.”
As a young man he lived in the Galilee region and endured shelling by the Syrians from the Golan for years. After Israel seized the area, he and a handful of others bolted up the mountain to start a kibbutz. The government had nothing to do with their decision, but the Galilee’s kibbutzim gave them their blessings.
“We wanted Israel to annex the Golan,” he said, “for protection.”
The Golan was mostly empty when he and his seven companions arrived. All was blackened from the fires of war. They settled in a destroyed Syrian camp.
“We weren’t at all confident that Israel would keep the Golan,” he said. “It seemed at the time that there was only a small chance it might happen. But in order to shape the future, you have to act.”
After six months, the Israeli government allowed them to build a proper kibbutz. They lived in a Syrian barracks. When the kibbutz population grew larger, they moved amidst the ruins of the shattered garrison town of Quneitra, a city that once housed 20,000 Syrians and which was now half demolished and entirely empty. They lived in an old Syrian officers neighborhood surrounded by walls.
Quneitra, Syria
The Israelis held the city for seven years, but gave it back during the agreed-upon disengagement of hostilities in 1974 when the United Nations Disengagement Observer Force (UNDOF) stepped into a narrow demilitarized zone between the two sides.
The Israelis expected Syria to rebuild Quneitra. “As far as I’m aware,” Hadar said, “rebuilding was one of the terms of the agreement under which it was given back.” Israel wanted Damascus to have something to lose in the border area should war break out again. Instead, Assad left it in ruins—and forbade its former residents from ever returning home—as a macabre memorial to “Zionist brutality.” It remains a broken ghost town today and has been in a state of ruin and decay longer than I’ve been alive.
New Quneitra in the background, the old destroyed Quneitra in the foreground from atop the Golan Heights
After the Yom Kippur War, and shortly before the disengagement, Yehuda and his neighbors founded a new kibbutz named Merom Golan next to a volcanic crater 3,000 feet above sea level. They grew apples, grapes, and cherries there, and it’s still thriving and growing.
“Tell me,” I said, “is the Golan Heights still strategically important for Israel?”
“Arab armies have started wars with us again and again since 1948,” he said. “They despise us, but we’re stronger, and we won all of them. Syria doesn’t believe it can win a war against Israel with tanks or a regular army. So it’s buying missiles, big missiles. And if Syria fires them at us, what can we do? We can shoot back at Damascus. A lot of Syrians would be killed, yet they’d win the war against Israel just like Hamas and Hezbollah won their wars against Israel.”
“Why do you think you lost those two wars?” I said. “Because you didn’t win? The way I see it, nobody won.”
“We lost,” he said. “We can beat them in a war face to face, but we can’t beat them from a distance. And they know it. They are much better at missile war than we are.”
“We certainly lost the war of public opinion,” Hadar said.
A cow skull on the Golan Heights
“Sure,” I said, “but that’s better than actually losing.”
“And we didn’t finish the job,” she said.
“We can’t finish the job,” Yehuda said. “How can we finish the job? Hezbollah now has more rockets than ever. Bigger rockets. Stronger rockets. We can’t do anything about it. We can bomb Beirut. So what? It doesn’t do any good. It doesn’t help us at all. And it turns the world against us. Syrian rockets can hit Tel Aviv, and we don’t have much of a deterrent. Rockets don’t have to be very accurate if they’re fired at Tel Aviv.”
Most of Hezbollah’s rockets are pathetically inaccurate, but the Tel Aviv metropolitan area is enormous and hard to miss.
“But we do still have a deterrent,” Yehuda said. “Our tanks can reach Damascus in 48 hours from the Golan Heights. We can destroy the Alawite ruling class. We can drive right through the Valley of Tears down below us. Damascus is only 60 kilometers from the border. My house is closer to Damascus than it is to Haifa. We could drive there in my car in less than an hour.”
The Valley of Tears on the road to Damascus
“At the end of the Yom Kippur War,” Hadar said, “our army was less than thirty kilometers from Damascus.”
“You know what Syria is like,” Yehuda said. “Syria is a country with a strong center. Syria is Damascus just like Israel is Tel Aviv. Everything that matters is in Damascus.”
“Well, what would happen if you did give the Golan back?” I said. “Do you really think the Syrians would shell the Galilee again?”
“No,” Yehuda said. “They would shoot Tel Aviv.”
“They’d shoot Tel Aviv from the Golan Heights?” I said.
“No,” he said. “They’d shoot Tel Aviv from Damascus.”
“But they can do that right now,” I said. “So if you gave the Golan back to Syria, what would you lose? Okay, you’d lose the ability to get tanks into Damascus in 48 hours, but you could still get tanks into Damascus. It would just take you a bit longer. And it wouldn’t be dangerous for you if they were here, would it?”
“Yes,” Hadar said. “It would. We can’t afford to have missiles here.”
Looking up at the Golan Heights from below
“But they can already hit Tel Aviv without putting missiles on the Golan,” I said.
“But they won’t without the Golan,” she said. “We know they can, and they know they can. The question is, what price are they prepared to pay?”
“They are prepared to pay with the lives of thousands of people,” Yehuda said, “but they are not willing to pay with Damascus or the regime.”
I got the sense that Yehuda Harel wasn’t primarily concerned with security, however. He’s been living on the Golan for more than forty years, and his love for it is obvious. Like Israel Eshed, the head of Golan Tourism Association, he wants to keep it because it’s his home.
“The people of Israel love the Golan,” he said. “More than a million Israelis visit here every year. They won’t give it up. And Israel is a democracy. What the government wants, more than anything, is to continue being the government. What the prime minister wants most is to be the prime minister. Any prime minister who talks about giving up the Golan Heights will be afraid of the next election. So before giving up the Golan, somebody will have to convince the people of Israel.”
“What do Israelis love about it?” I said. I can testify that it’s a nice place. It reminds me in some ways of the semi-desert regions of my home state of Oregon. But not many Israelis actually live there.
The ridge of the Golan Heights over the Sea of Galilee
“I’ve asked many people this question,” Yehuda said. “Israelis love the Golan more than they love Jerusalem.”
“That’s ridiculous,” I said.
“Yes,” Yehuda said. “It’s hard to believe. But when people are asked if they will give up the Golan or part of Jerusalem for peace, the negative answer for the Golan Heights is twice as high as the negative answer for Jerusalem.”
“Why?” I said. “The Jewish people yearned to return to Jerusalem for 2,000 years. It’s your cultural, historical, and political capital.”
“I’ve asked a number of people about this, some of them psychologists,” he said. “And I’ve heard many answers. One is that the Golan is on the shore of the Sea of Galilee. Mankind knew that water gives life even before it was mankind. The Golan Heights, subconsciously, is water.”
A sunset over the Sea of Galilee from the Golan Heights
The freshwater Galilee is Israel’s primary source of drinking water, and when Syria controlled the Golan, the Syrians did their damndest to take the water for themselves and dry up the sea. The lower portion of the Golan is still scarred by botched Syrian engineering projects that would have diverted or stopped the rivers that pour into the sea in the winter and spring.
Yehuda was a member of the Knesset, Israel’s parliament, from 1995 to 1999. He and a handful of others started their own party solely to prevent the government from giving the Golan back to Syria.
“This was during the time of Yitzhak Rabin’s government,” he said. “I was one of his aides. And I made a party called The Third Way. We were a movement of people on the political left who were against withdrawing from the Golan. So many people joined that we decided to run in elections. We got four seats in the Knesset. So I found myself in the Knesset, and I didn’t know what to do.”
“You were the dog that caught the car,” I said.
He laughed.
“Well,” I said. “How did it go?”
“It was very interesting for a few years,” he said. “My smallest daughter—well, my youngest daughter, she’s not small anymore—was very much against my going into politics. But our movement gets stronger with every new government. Israelis don’t realize how strong our democracy is. They think the government can do anything, but it can’t. I know because I’ve seen it from the inside. The government wants to continue being the government more than anything else. People in the government are afraid of elections, as they should be. They are not good people. They are extremely selfish.”
“You know these people personally,” I said.
“Yes,” he said. “And in order to keep their jobs, they have to satisfy people. That’s the system. As Winston Churchill said, democracy is the worst system except for all the others. We don’t have to create propaganda for the Golan Heights. We just have to produce the best wine and make sure tourists come here, and the people will stand with us.”
A tourist looks into Syria from atop the Golan Heights
Hadar and Reuven stayed on kibbutz Kfar Haruv during the 2006 war with Hezbollah. A few missiles hit the Golan. I know because I saw them strike the Golan with my own eyes when Noah Pollak and I covered the war from the border area. Hezbollah wasted few of their precious Iranian projectiles on the Golan, however, because it’s so sparsely populated. The cities of northern Israel took the brunt of the damage. So the Golan offered an almost safe front-row seat during the war.
An air raid shelter on kibbutz Kfar Haruv, Golan Heights
It was even safer during the Second Intifada than it was during the Hezbollah war. Suicide-bombers didn’t want to go all the way up there to explode themselves in such a lightly-populated and target-poor environment.
“We had so much tourism up here during the Second Intifada,” Hadar said. “It was the safest place in Israel.”
“It was the only safe place in Israel,” Yehuda said.
“This is a marvelous place to bring up your children,” Hadar said. “My kids grew up completely free here. They didn’t have to worry about anything dangerous.”
“A four year old girl can walk at night to her friend’s house,” Yehuda said.
A road on the Golan Heights leads to an Israeli listening post at the top which monitors communications in Syria
“Nobody is going to attack children here,” Hadar said. “Nothing bad is going to happen. My own children know Britain well, having visited family there often and spent time there themselves after their army service. Recently they said, ‘Mother, thank you, thank you for bringing us up on the Golan and not anywhere else.’ When they saw what life in the UK is like, they knew they had the best childhood possible.”
“And remember,” Yehuda said, “there are no Palestinians here. More than half the people in Israel want to withdraw from the West Bank. Five years ago Israelis wanted to withdraw to give the Palestinians a state so we’ll have peace. Israelis don’t want to occupy people. We are against occupation. Today nobody believes a withdrawal will bring peace, but we are still against occupying another people. But there’s no occupation here like the one in the West Bank. There is no occupation of people.”
That’s sort of true, but not entirely true. It depends on how you look at it.
There are no Palestinians on the Golan, but there are around 20,000 Druze in the north. Unlike the Alawites who lived on the Golan before the 1967 war, the Druze didn’t flee when Israel took it. Most live in the village of Majdal Shams on the back side of Mount Hermon. Unlike the Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza, the Druze of the Golan can take Israeli citizenship if they want it. They have the same political rights as Israeli Druze, and the same political rights as Israeli Jews.
The Druze, like the Alawites, are not Muslims. Both religions grew out of Islam—as Islam emerged in its own way from Christianity and Judaism—but then became something else.
As there are only around 800,000 Druze in the entire Middle East, they take an extremely cautious approach to politics. Everywhere they live—in Lebanon, Syria, Israel, and on the Golan—they’re loyal to whomever’s in charge. Syrian Druze, then, are with Assad and the Baath Party. Israeli Druze side with the Zionists. Lebanese Druze adjust their alliances constantly in an ever-mutating environment. The Druze of the Golan have little choice but to divide their loyalty between Jerusalem and Damascus. Most won’t take Israeli citizenship even though it’s available, and they won’t serve in the army. They self-identify as Syrians, not Israelis. But unlike most Syrians, they say they like Israel. They obey Israeli law, and they don’t sign on with the reactionary Arab movements that yearn for the country’s destruction.
“Let me tell you something that’s not very nice,” Yehuda said. “There were almost 100,000 Syrians here on the Golan Heights before 1967. And they’re not here now. Israel won’t let them come back. They live in refugee camps near Damascus.”
A mosque on the Golan Heights damaged during the 1967 war
“Where did they live?” I said. “Is there an empty city up here somewhere? I know about Quneitra, but it was given back to the Syrians.”
“They refuse to rebuild it,” he said. “20,000 people used to live there. The rest lived in small settlements. So while the West Bank is like South Africa in some ways, the Golan Heights is like America. America and South Africa have bad histories, but today there is complete equality. It’s the same on the Golan Heights. No one under the age of forty even remembers the Syrians being here. You didn’t know there were 100 small Syrian settlements here until I told you about them.”
“So what’s the future of this place?” I said.
“I don’t know anything about the future,” he said. “Nobody does. Not even the CIA knows anything. They didn’t know the Soviet Union was going to collapse a week in advance. So how can I know? I can do my best to keep the Golan Heights in Israel, and that’s it. When people want to know about the future, I send them to a woman named Eva in Jaffa. You can take coffee with her, and then she’ll tell you your future.” He laughed. “She’s much cheaper than the CIA, and no worse. She costs 50 shekels.”
“Okay,” I said, “so let me ask you this. What if there was an offer on the table from the Syrian government—not this government, a different, moderate, and less hostile government, run by a guy like Anwar Sadat—who says, ‘Okay, we’re going to have real peace and normal relations. No more support for Hamas or Hezbollah. You give us back the Golan, and we’ll be as good a neighbor for you as Jordan.’ Would you take the deal?”
“Let me tell you,” Yehuda said. “What a Syrian leader says doesn’t mean anything. It means nothing to me. I would tell him that if Syria is to be governed as a normal country, like Sweden or Canada, then the Syrian government shouldn’t mind if I stay on the Golan. Right? I could stay in Canada if I wanted. If they don’t want me to stay, then they aren’t offering a real peace.”
Tourists look into Syria from the Golan Heights
“But what about Jordan?” I said. “You can’t live in Jordan. Jews can’t even own property there. But the Jordanian government isn’t causing any problems for Israel. The Jordanians aren’t shooting at you anymore, and they cooperate in a serious way on security.”
“At the moment, yes,” he said. “I don’t know what will happen later. No one knew Yugoslavia would destroy itself. It was one state. It was quiet. People were friends. Then it exploded. Here, we are surrounded by Sunnis and the Muslim Brotherhood. Not in Lebanon, but everywhere else. And they are very dangerous. In the Middle Ages, Islam had the most advanced culture in the entire world. Then something happened. We aren’t confident the peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan will last. We all saw what happened in Iran in 1979. And look what’s happening now in Turkey. What will Turkey look like next year? Maybe it will look like Ataturk’s country again, and maybe it will look like Iran. Nobody knows.”
“What will happen in Egypt when Mubarak dies?” Hadar said.
“This is why I don’t know what will happen in the future,” Yehuda said. “And I don’t trust people who say that they do. It’s a bad idea to deal with an uncertainty by creating a certainty. If we give back the Golan, we will have no idea what might happen next.”
*
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It’s not surprising to me that many secular Israelis might prefer the Golan Heights to Jerusalem. The Golan Heights is the only real wilderness we have. It’s the only place, other than the desert, where you can see wide open, empty spaces. Wilderness is psychologically important for a society. Even if you never go, you like to know that it’s there. It is our Yellowstone.
Jerusalem, on the other hand, may have negative connotations for secular Israelis because of it’s ultra-orthodox religiousity, and the prominence of the Palestinian conflict. Jerusalem is not a relaxing place, whereas the Golan Heights is very relaxing and guilt-free. The conflict issue there seems remote and hypothetical, and involves a country, not a population.
The Golan Heights are one of my favorite place in Israel.
The Druze town of Magdal is very friendly and the make one of the best pitah falafel !
Katzrin,the capital of the Golan is a beautiful new town ,next to a Jewish village from the Talmudic period.Anyone interested in Jewish religious life should visit the village of Hizpin where welcome is not a void world !
Thank you Michael,for showing PM readers,the paramount importance of the Golan in securing our nano state !
I haven’t been to the Golan yet. One of these days, I’ll get a little ambitious & take a trip there. I kind of miss looking at ”green” after five years in Eilat.
Needless to say, I wouldn’t give a centimetre of the Golan to Syria. I would add that I no longer believe the Assad gov’t. serves our interests. We should have destroyed the regime during the last Lebanese war, this mistake will cost us a lot of lives in the near future.
MarkC: Wilderness is psychologically important for a society.
Yes, it is. I live 30 minutes from a vast wilderness, and I visit it often. I feel a bit claustrophobic after a while if I don’t.
Terry,
Visit the Golan in the spring. As you can see from my photos, it’s not all the green in the summer.
It’s a hell of a lot cooler than Eilat, though.
I’ve asked many people this question,” Yehuda said. “Israelis love the Golan more than they love Jerusalem.”
The statement is weird to me since Yehuda bears the name of Jerusalem (HAREL) as family name !
#5 Michael Totten.
Have you ever seen the landscape between Beersheva & Eilat?
The first time I saw it, I thought I was on Mars.
I’ve seen some barren & desolate places but never anything like this.
Thanks for the advice, though, I’ll keep it in mind.
And, by the way, yesterday I was diagnosed with gallbladder stones, how’s that for funny, after reading about your medical adventure & thinking how it was such bad luck, I end up also having stones.
@Tery,
Do not be too concerned by your gallblader stones unless they are very small…
It seems a paradox but as long as they are big,they will safely remain in the gallblader rather than migrating to the biliary ducts … .
The only real risk for bigger stone is” acute cholecystis” which is an inflammation of the vesicular wall,which does not seem to be your case
Frienly yours and Gmar Hatima Tova,
#8 Dr. Trumpeldor.
Thank you, doctor, I am not particularly concerned, merely annoyed at the inconvenience of whatever future treatments may be necessary.
Here are links to two excellent articles by Martin Sherman that appear in Ynet.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3953028,00.html
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3878505,00.html
Best regards.
This is the kind of hypocrisy that drives other patriotic Israelis crazy:
“Let me tell you,” Yehuda said. “What a Syrian leader says doesn’t mean anything. It means nothing to me. I would tell him that if Syria is to be governed as a normal country, like Sweden or Canada, then the Syrian government shouldn’t mind if I stay on the Golan. Right? I could stay in Canada if I wanted. If they don’t want me to stay, then they aren’t offering a real peace.”
- – - – - – - – - – -
Yet these same left-leaning Golan residents act as if the same fears don’t apply to the “West Bank”.
They say “Israeli won the Golan fair and square” – and they admit that there was ethnic cleansing of Arabs.
But Judea and Samaria were “won fair and square” in the same defensive war – and Israel’s coastal breadbasket was attacked from higher ground in the Samarian mountains.
The only difference was that lefties like Moshe Dayan didn’t “finish the job” – to quote one of the Golan-heights boosters – my transferring the population to Jordan.
And so we continue to be attacked from any lands ceded to the “Palestinian Authority”.
There is deep dishonesty when these holier-than-thou Golan lefties try to separate their own story from the story of the West Bank.
There is no real difference.
The only difference is that the West Bank is largely settled by these folks’ political/cultural rivals in Israel.
So they turn up their noses and try to delegitimize “those other settlers”.
Sorry- sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
” In the Middle Ages, Islam had the most advanced culture in the entire world. ”
This is repeated everywhere, but I think it is untrue. Apart from the question of whether China was more advanced, I think the early Medieval civilisation in the Muslim empire was in spite of Islam, not because of it. It was the old civilisation of Late Antiquity running down slowly under the pressure of Islam. The Muslims did not build a civilisation, they inherited one.
Ben David: They say “Israeli won the Golan fair and square” – and they admit that there was ethnic cleansing of Arabs.
There was no ethnic cleansing of Arabs. Those who fled are in Syria. Those who did not flee are still there and have been offered citizenship.
The only difference is that the West Bank is largely settled by these folks’ political/cultural rivals in Israel.
There are a lot more differences than just that. Israel effectively annexed the Golan. Israel has not and never will annex the West Bank. You know this if you live in Israel. And that’s because 90 percent of the people who live in the West Bank are Palestinians who are prone to terrorist insurgencies.
#10 Don Cox.
Funny, I thought the same thing when I read it, just another one of those unexamined lies that obfuscates reality. I think, however, that you should say that Islam conquered relatively advanced civilizations, not inherited them. And, they ran them into the ground as they progressively imposed Islam on the subjugated populations.
What is the proof of this? Well, if Islam had been capable of creating a civilization, why did Arabia remain a primitive backwater for 1400 years after Islam?
If you carefully examine all the various claims of Islamic achievements, you find that almost without exception, they were the continuation of what had previously been achieved by others, that the conquered peoples continued many techniques by inertia but gradually entered a state of stagnation & further progress ceased.
#12 Michael Totten.
I tend to agree with Ben David, I had the same impression, Lefties are infuriating with their mix of half-truths & screwy interpretations mixed in with some accurate observations. And I most certainly agree we should have expelled the Arabs in 1967 when we had the chance. Now, it would be almost impossible although there are circumstances which might alter that possibility in the future. But, this assumes a gov’t. willing to accomplish such a thing, very unlikely at present.
@Terry,
I do not know if I must look forward for getting the” apropriate circumstances” to expell them to king abdallah bridge in droves.
i know that these circumstances will mean a generalized war .
However, this mass transfer is the only key to the real peace solution.
Ben David,
The difference between the West Bank and the Golan is that the West Bank has about 2.5 million Palestinians who want nothing to do with Israel and the Golan has a much smaller Druze community who are mostly loyal to Israel. Israel annexed the Golan and gave its residents citizenship. Do you want to annex the West Bank?
I don’t think that tank turret is from the Yom Kippur War. I see attachment points for Blazer armor which suggests it was still in action during the First Lebanon War.
And thank you for the article Michael. I was snowed out of seeing Ramat HaGolan when I went to Israel on an tour.
And just for laughs, a really stupid article from Ynet about peace talks with Syria sponsored by Pres. Sarkozy of France.
”Assad Hoping for true developments in peace”
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3953395,00.html
I read a great article in yalibnan.com about the Golan Druze a few years back (I can’t seem to locate it now, but will post it if I do). The Golan Druze, unlike their religious brethren in the rest of Israel, have been famous for sticking up for Syria. I was under the impression that they were quite the anti-Zionists and quite hostile to Israel.
Yet the article mentioned how if you scratch the surface, the views are very different. Most publicly pledge allegiance to Syria because they fear that the Golan will be returned to Syria and they don’t want to be on the wrong side of the regime (i.e., it’s safer to bash Israel than to bash Syria). However, some Golan Druze youths who had gone to Damascus to study (Damascus allows them since they are still Syrian citizens) have returned and painted a *very* bad picture of Syria.
I would not say that ‘Israel will never annex the West Bank.’ First problem is the term ‘West Bank’ which makes the territory somehow essentially Arab. The statement also assumes that most Israelis have abandoned historical claims. Many have, I agree, but history works in its own ways.
The Golan is beautiful. The Syrian regime is nasty and absurd all at the same time…
I drove around the Golan twice in the last 4 years and took pretty much exactly the same photos Michael took. It is beautiful up there and the views are amazing. Not to mention the wine.
There is no reason for Israel to give it back even if Syria says peace depends on it. Aside from the fact that it’s deeply stupid to give that commanding height advantage to anyone else (what if the Syrian regime changes again?), it’s a beautiful area, it adds another ecological variety to Israel, and Syria and Lebanon have it to spare. The Golan is the southern tip of a mountainous densely wooded terrain which stretches north and east from there. Syria and Lebanon have lots of it, let Israel have some too. And as Michael said, it was already sparsely populated and doesn’t contain a revanchist population.
This seems like a no-brainer to me.
When I was driving around up there I took several photos of that same bombed out mosque with all the graffitti on it. It’s in one of my facebook photo albums.
I think the Golan is also ‘historically’ Syrian because the French said so after Sykes-Picot in or around 1918. They made as much territory Syrian as possible because they were in a race with the British to divide the ME. These were two colonial powers carrying their historical conflict into the ME.
From this point of view, it is not surprising that Churchill, still considered today a great friend of Zionism by many, ‘lopped off’ Transjordan, nearly 80% of the British Mandate under supervision of The League of Nations, and tore it from the Jewish homeland as set out both by int’l and British policy. That is, the British never really meant to carry through with the terms of the Mandate; they used Jewish needs as cover to continue the historic rivalry with the French while attempting to control a land bridge between Egypt and Iraq, the real purpose being to keep the prize colonies of India and Egypt ‘forever’ linked. When the Empire collapsed and the pesky Jews began to force the British out of the remnants of mandatory Palestine, the British retaliated with the White Paper and the policies that brought the Exodus. And the ‘work’ done then by the British govt’s of the time assured two things in regards to Jews and Israel: 1) the Holocaust could occur in massive dimensions, and 2) Israel’s population and territory would be restricted, and the nation vulnerable to Arab attempts to destroy her.
I grew up on a kibbutz in the the Jordan Valley and went to school in the shadow of the Golan Heights. The Golan is the greenest part of the country and is extremely important for its water resources as Totten mentions in his article.
Israel was willing to give up territory for peace with Egypt. The reason it would be harder for Israelis to give up the Golan is because the Assad family are perhaps one of the worst current dictators in the Middle East. Unlike Egypt under Sadat (and then Mubarak), Syria isn’t coming any closer under the American sphere of influence. When Israel made peace Egypt, Egypt was leaving the Soviet sphere of influence and towards America making it unlikely that two countries allied with one super power will attack each other. For this development, Egypt and Israel secured military aid from the US for the decades to come. Also, Israelis can easily and securely visit the Sinai. How many Israelis expect to be able to visit the Golan under Assad’s control freely and securely?
Both Egypt and Syria are dictatorships. But Egypt is supported by the US. Syria on the other hand is firmly in Iranian grasp. Even though the Alawites are as far from the Shiites as anyone, they are more afraid from the Syrian and Lebanese Sunnis asserting themselves.
Michael,
I have also visited the Golan at least 4-5 times and each time liked it better than the last.
It reminded me of parts of California. The wine was excellent, It has a wonderful natural beauty.
I also visited Katzrin and their museum as well as Gamla, climbing down to visit the actual site strewn with pottery shards and the remains of the community including a mikva.
The Golan is an area that I would have no trouble living in.
It is now part of Israel and should remain so. It would be catastrophic if Israel gave away the Golan. And certainly not for empty American or French promises of protection. (I read somewhere, I think it was in the Torah, that the Jews were supposed to be protected in Egypt after Jacob and his family moved there. I also remember how well that worked out!)
The only thing that should ever make Israel reconsider giving it to Syria would be if the entire Syrian population converted to Judaism and asked to be annexed to Israel.
Larry in the Silicon.
Larry, do you watch Fox News?
Assuming that you do, have you ever seen the reports by Amy Kellog on Syria?
It’s unbelievable, pure, unadulterated propaganda, the aim to present Syria in a favourable light to Fox viewers. I don’t have a doubt in my mind that the entire script is written by the Syrian gov’t.
Has anyone else noticed this?
Terry, no Fox or any other TV news for me since January (no TV). But I remember a few reports from her in the past, from Syria, and they reflected what you describe.
I assume this is part of a strategy to seduce Syria away from the Iranian orbit, and is de-facto endorsed by the last several Israeli govt’s. A mistake, of course, but so it goes.
On the specific point of American reporters’ ‘objectivity’, I think we need to refer to the interactions between various media outlets and intelligence agencies. By that I mean not only the ‘growing’ of reporters who already have some link to such agencies, but the need of reporters to gain access, and thus repeat what is told to them by their sources. Some of these folks are groomed and/or connected before they have ever written a word. Others learn along the way….
“Israelis love the Golan more than they love Jerusalem.”
I am not Israeli and may be mistaking, but comparing Golans to Jerusalem is like comparing Yellowstone to NYC.
How can you say, which one you love and cherish more (for those people who love both)?
I love Yellowstone much more than I love New York because it is so much easier to find parking there.
Michael – did you try the Golan wine?
If not you need to go back. You can’t afford to miss it.
Ben David: “Yet these same left-leaning Golan residents act as if the same fears don’t apply to the “West Bank”.”
Bingo.
Let me see, if I am a ultra Left wing Israeli who owns property on the Israeli “occupied” Golan Heights, I am a good Israel and really okay but if I am a Nationalist Israeli who owns property in the Israeli “occupied” West Bank, I am one of those filthy and fascist “settlers.”
Of course to the Syrians and the Palestinians, Tel Aviv and Jerusalem as well as the rest of Israel is illegally Israeli “occupied” territory.
Now let’s see, if I drive a bunch of Druse out of their homes in the Golan Heights as a result of fighting, as an ultra Left wing Israeli I am still okay, unlike those filthy and fascistic Right wing “settlers” in the West Bank who steal Palestinian lands, oppress the innocent Palestinians, and ultimately caused the Palestinian refugee problem.
Let us go even further. I am an ultra Left wing Israeli who votes for the radical Left wing party Meretz even though that part considers me just as much a filthy and fascistic “settler” because I am living on stolen Arab land on the Golan Heights.
I have to wonder in just what bizzare universe these Left wing kibbutzniks live in, and how they look at themselves in the mirror in the morning. They sound like a pack of howling schizophrenics.
Wonderful article about the Golan, which I think most people don’t really know or understand. Two years ago, I was in Israel for a few days with my daughter, but when she was busy with her business, I rented a car and went driving around.
I drove around the Golan, which doesn’t take at all that long…and it indeed is wide open and beautiful. There is a great deal of Jewish history that took place in that area not mentioned in this article, but the many memorials thrown up by family or other soldiers, to their lost comrades from ’67 and ’73, were so evocative and emotional, much more so than fancier, more “official” ones would have been.
Seeing those monuments…and looking down and seeing how easy it was for the Syrians to snipe at everything…I thought, no way in HELL should they ever give this back. What would be the point? If the Syrians have proven they don’t want…or can’t give their own people the right to live there, then let Israelis make it blossom again. And they ARE.
Annexed it, keep it, nothing to even think about. Harel is correct, there is no reason to trust Syria. There is no reason to trust any Arab regime. Can that change? Sure, but right now, the evidence would be against it.
Thank you thank you, Michael! This really captures it all perfectly.
On my first trip to Israel I spent a golden summer day on the Golan, and fell in love in a way I cannot begin to explain, and have never felt anywhere else. I’ve seen it flowering in Spring and heavy with fruits and nuts and wildlife in Fall. The Golan is magic.
Its enormous strategic and psychological importance, long-range missiles notwithstanding, is also clear to anyone who has stood on the bluff and looked down over northern Israel.
I’ve met a good handful of Israelis, though — mostly older people living in the cities, but some in the Galilee — who say they would give it up in the blink of an eye for the promise of ‘real peace.’ Of course, in that part of the world (as your column points out) there’s no such thing. I hope the Israeli politicians who engage in ‘peace talks’ always keep that in mind and don’t give land for lies.
I hope you got to enjoy some good Golan wine, while you were there.
What nobody has mentioned,and what MJT touched upon, is that the Golan is crucial for Israel’s sense in more ways than one. Yes, we know it allows Israel to protect the Kinneret salient up to Dan along the finger (Hula Valley), but by having Israel perched upon Mt. Hermon, in viewing distance of the outskirts of Damascus, Israel essentially has Syria by the balls.
To chime in on that myth of Islamic civilization: one must distinguish between Arabic and Islamic progress, the former having accumulated knowledge from many sources, but unhappily extinguished by the latter.
Islam stunted the growth of scientific development because of its insistence on subjugating all pursuit of knowledge to Islam itself. Only knowledge relevant to observing Islam was taught. Although this could have included optics and astronomy, most Madrasas rejected the natural sciences, open inquiry, and the following of reason and evidence, as they feared where it might lead. Because Islam means “submission” (not “peace”), the primary focus was on unquestioning obedience, to preclude uncomfortable questions about the Quran and Mohammed. The situation was similar regarding Muslim philosophy; most advances were made in spite of Islam, not because of it. In Toby Huff’s words “the greatest philosophical thinkers in Arabic-Islamic civilization after al-Ghazali never failed to cast doubt on the powers of human reason and to disparage the virtues of demonstrative logic; they insisted instead on the priority of faith (fideism) or on the unsurpassed authority of tradition (the Shari’a and the Sunna). Reason for the orthodox was little more than common sense, and there was no acknowledgment of the idea that reason could reach new truths unaided by revelation. Innovation, in matters of religion, was equivalent to heresy.”
(Side note: until we grasp the emphasis on obedience we cannot fully understand how a father can murder his daughter in the name of “honor killing.”)
The other obstacle in Islam was its worldview of occasionalism and its rejection of cause and effect. It was impossible to study the natural world if its behavior was not determined by laws of its own, not to mention being full of mischievous djinn. The Greeks had similarly short-circuited the progress of science because of their worldview (e.g. that rocks behaved in a certain way when thrown because of their “rock nature”).
In contrast, Christianity offered an orderly world created by a gracious God who, through his Incarnation, forced man to revise his former worldview of the material world as “dirty”, and instead see it as a window into the Mind of God. This is why the Catholic Church was the major funder of science for over a hundred years. (The popular understanding of the Galileo affair is woefully distorted – ironically, it was the Church that was being rigidly scientific in asking Galileo to limit heliocentrism to the status of theory until better evidence was accrued. The proofs Galileo had offered were, in fact, all defective.)
Modern science has built on that foundation without acknowledging this debt. However, its most advanced practitioners, having marveled at the cleverness of the minute details of the construction of the universe, still recognize that “We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangements of the books, but doesn’t know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God.” (Einstein)
Michael,
You left out a very important reason for not giving back the Golan, Yarden Wines’ Golan winery. Using grapes grown primarily in the Golan, Yarden makes outstanding, award winning wines with the Yarden, Gamla and Golan labels.
http://www.yardenwines.com/
Graffiti often seen in Lebanon under Syrian occupation: “Assad fi Loubnan, kalb fil Joulan”. Assad means lion in Arabic, and kalb means dog. Dogs are viewed as cowardly by Arabs. So of Hafez Assad, “Lion in Lebanon, dog in the Golan”.
Wonderful reporting.
But that isn’t a cow skull. It looks like a pelvis, and a good piece of the vertebral column.
@Michael,2 more data
-on your map,you omitted the 1920 border in which a bigger chunk of the Golan belonged to the British Mandate…
This chunk was exchanged with the French for Mossul area in Irak..
http://www.peacefaq.com/golan.html
The Golan Heights [Gaulanitis] were illegally given away to the French Mandate of (Syria -Lebanon) on March 1923. This territorial transfer was made surreptitiously in a capricious and arbitrary fashion by the British whose sole interest was to secure Mosul ‘s oil fields to Iraq, and reduce the constant friction with the French Mandatory Powers in Syria-Lebanon which had designs on these oil fields and Trans-Jordan.
A Mandate is a Trust, according to ART. 80 of the UN Charter. Israel’s decision to impose its Laws on the Golan Heights on December 14, 1981, had eventually, RIGHTED the WRONG that was committed by the British in March 1923.
Syria cannot make a standing claim in an International Court of Law as Syria was not an Independent Country then, but was in its formative years under the French Mandate. The “Golan Heights” as they are known TODAY were never part of Syrian Real Estate, but part of the Palestine Mandate.
-Golan History and Rotchild’s acquisition:
JEWISH HISTORY
In Biblical times, the Golan Heights was referred to as “Bashan;” the word “Golan” apparently derives from the biblical city of “Golan in Bashan,” (Deuteronomy 4:43, Joshua 21:27). The area was assigned to the tribe of Manasseh (Joshua 13:29-31). In early First Temple times (953-586 BCE), the area was contested between the northern Jewish kingdom of Israel and the Aramean kingdom based on Damascus. King Ahab of Israel (reigned c. 874-852 BCE) defeated Ben-Hadad I of Damascus near the site of Kibbutz Afik in the southern Golan (I Kings 20:26-30), and the prophet Elisha prophesied that King Jehoash of Israel (reigned c. 801-785 BCE) would defeat Ben-Hadad III of Damascus, also near Kibbutz Afik (11 Kings 13:17). In the late 6th and 5th centuries BCE, the region was settled by returning Jewish exiles from Babylonia (modern Iraq). In the mid 2nd century BCE, Judah Maccabee and his brothers came to the aid of the local Jewish communities when the latter came under attack from their non-Jewish neighbors (I Maccabees 5). Judah Maccabee’s grandnephew, the Hasmonean King Alexander Jannai (reigned 103-76 BCE) later added the Heights to his kingdom. The Greeks referred to the area as “Gaulanitis”, a term also adopted by the Romans, which led to the current application of the word “Golan” for the entire area. Gamla became the Golan’s chief city and was the area’s last Jewish stronghold to resist the Romans during the Great Revolt, falling in the year 67 (see Josephus, The Jewish War, Chap. 13, Penguin edition). Despite the failure of the revolt, Jewish communities on the Heights continued, and even flourished; the remains of no less than 25 synagogues from the period between the revolt and the Islamic conquest in 636 have been excavated. (Several Byzantine monasteries from this period have also been excavated on the Heights.) The decisive battle in which the Arabs under Caliph Omar, crushed the Byzantines and established Islamic control over what is now Israel, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria, was fought in the Yarmouk Valley, on the southern edge of the Heights, in August 636. Organized Jewish settlement on the Golan came to an end at this time.
In the 15th and 16th centuries, Druze began to settle in the northern Golan and on the slopes of Mt. Hermon. During the brief period of Egyptian rule (1831-1840) and in the ensuing decades, Sudanese, Algerians, Turkomans and Samarian Arabs settled on the Heights. The Turks brought in Circassians in the 1880′s to fight against Bedouin brigands.
The Jewish presence on the Golan was renewed in 1886, when the B’nei Yehuda society of Safed purchased a plot of land four kilometers north of the present-day religious moshav of Keshet, but the community — named Ramataniya — failed one year later. In 1887, the society purchased lands between the modern-day B’nei Yehuda and Kibbutz Ein Gev. This community survived until 1920, when two of its last members were murdered in the anti-Jewish riots which erupted in the spring of that year. In 1891, Baron Rothschild purchased approximately 18,000 acres of land about 15 km. east of
Ramat Hamagshimim, in what is now Syria. First Aliyah (1881-1903) immigrants established five small communities on this land, but were forced to leave by the Turks in 1898. The lands were farmed until 1947 by the Palestine Colonization Association and the Israel Colonization Association, when they were seized by the Syrian army. Most of the Golan Heights were included within Mandatory Palestine when the Mandate was formally granted in 1922, but Britain ceded the area to France in the Franco-British Agreement of 7 March 1923. The Heights became part of Syria upon the termination of the French mandate in 1944.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/golan1.html
WOW! I’ve heard of the Heights many times but I’ve never seen pictures. Never even knew what the terrain was like beyond the whole “They can shoot into Israel from there.” Having seen it I can see why people who live there love it.
It looks like Flagstaff Arizona or the High Desert here in Southern California. Very pretty.
If I lived there I wouldn’t give it up either.
Thank you for this look into life there.
“but by having Israel perched upon Mt. Hermon, in viewing distance of the outskirts of Damascus, Israel essentially has Syria by the balls.”
Hardly matters. I can think of a weapon or two, which would not require direct view of a target.
Grimmy –
The Islamic “Golden Age” is ironically (sadly) enough, a myth created by Westerners. The vast majority of Islamic/Arab culture’s alleged scientific/architectural advances are claims which fall completely to pieces under examination. They didn’t build the Taj Mahal, invent the pointed arch or the concrete dome, the number zero, algebra, optic theory, distillation, or even what is commonly called “Arab medicine”.
Small, often theoretical advances were made by a few exceptional, often irreligious and thus persecuted individuals, but they stayed theoretical. Westerners love to ascribe knowledge and wisdom to exotic societies, though, all the way back to the ancient Greeks claiming Ethiopians knew how to live to be 200 years old. The Arab/Muslim world has latched onto Westerners’ own self-flagellating propaganda, and now claim as their glory inventions they had little or nothing to do with, aside from having plundered or outright destroyed the actual societies which produced them.
There are, however, the records and artifacts of the destruction of the Library of Alexandria (its contents burned as fuel for the public baths), the Royal Zoroastrian Libraries (burned), and the university of Nalanda (burned). And then there are the contemporary writings, both Muslim and non-Muslim, showing what it really meant to be a dhimmi under Islamic rule… There was absolutely nothing “golden” or advanced in any of that, except in the minds of al-taqiyyaists, academic frauds and prostitutes, and the useful idiots on network news and in Hollywood.
Andrew McCarthy wrote a good article on how Islamic society and it’s rapacity in fact destroyed Classical civilization and set the world back a thousand years:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/05/the_fate_of_the_library_of_ale.html
Why make peace with Syria now? How can one talk about that this week when the next meeting between PA and Israel government is already on schedule?
Golan should never be given up to Syria. That is not the same thing as West bank and Gaza. I support the current negotiations. I seen no reason why there should not be a Jewish community in Hebron or a Palestinian Arab community in Jerusalem. Already many non Israeli Arabs live with permanent residency permits in Israel. Palestinians should grant the same. There can be trade, water, transportation and security arrangements.
Wonderful article again by MJT. I had a nice bottle of Golan wine last week and now I want to go back and spend more time there.
Typical far left kibbutz hypocrisy. They have no problem living in occupied Tel Aviv (former place of the arab village of Sheikh Munis) or the occupied Golan because the Arabs fled their homes.
But they explicitly support Judea and Samaria Arabs viciously murdering Jewish children just because these Arabs didn’t flee like “their” Arabs and have the guts to vage Jihad instead of escaping and living in refugee camps.
Or do they support the murder of Jews in Judea and Samaria because the latter are religious and politically conservative Jews? Eather way, leftists are evil scumbags in every country you go.
“I support the current negotiations.” Why support them – not that the US Admin or Bibi will take our views into account – but why? The ‘extremist’ Arabs have celebrated these negotiations in their own and predictable way, by murdering four Jews and attempting to kill several more. Nor are they done. This happened in the wake of the Israeli gov’t lifting roadblocks at US insistence, which enabled the attacks.
The talks will go nowhere, unless Israel capitulates. The PA can not and will not agree to any significant presence of Israeli citizens in ‘its’ territory; at the same time it can rest confident that the Israeli Left and the ‘international community’ will scream and howl if even 10 Arabs were transferred out of Israel in exchange for 1000 Jews expelled from Judea and Samaria.
More to the point, the Arabs see Israel as refusing to stand on her rights, as relinquishing her most historic points (Hebron, Shechem, Shiloh) if ‘allowed’ to by unexpected Arab flexibility or brutal American pressure. Their spokesman say, over and over, ‘we will never recognize Israel as a Jewish state’, and watch as one Israeli Admin after another crumbles from its starting positions. No, these negotiations are the road to stasis and more terror – not peace.
West Bank? The East bank is a part of Israel as well (explicitly, per Balfour declaration).
The Hashemite Kingdom is as illegitimate as it gets, how can anyone justify one Saudi family ruling over a huge piece of land and over people who are not Saudi?
Michael, did you speak to any Druze in the Golan? They are about half the total population there, and you’d be just the person to do it.
My recollection is that Majdel Shams and other Golan Druze towns like Masadeh feel as safe and “normal” as any town in Israel. From the little I remember hearing from the inhabitants, they always make a point of telling you they’re Syrians with a capital S, but they certainly don’t seem to be in any hurry to be under Syrian rule again. They refuse to be Israeli citizens, yet their behavior and attitudes towards Israelis is the same as that of Druze in Israel proper who are citizens.
I always imagined they’re just hedging their bets so they don’t get the ax if they ever do end up part of Syria again, and probably to protect their relatives who live in Syria now. But my knowledge of this subject is very patchy and a good decade or so old.
I’d be very curious what your first-hand impressions are.
Afitna: they explicitly support Judea and Samaria Arabs viciously murdering Jewish children
You’re not even in the same time zone as reality.
Loft: The East bank is a part of Israel as well
Actually, a nation called Jordan is on the East bank. Maybe you’ve heard of it.
Naif: Michael, did you speak to any Druze in the Golan? They are about half the total population there, and you’d be just the person to do it.
Yes, my next long piece will focus on them.
The biggest mistake the US made in Iraq was not wheeling left after the shock and awe campain in Bagdad. They should have driven straight thru Damascus and gone for a swim in the Med.
Keep the Golan in Isreal, no good will ever come from giving it up.
lui,
As Americans and their allies found out (and should have realized) in Iraq, toppling the chief thug may be the easy part. Then comes the larger, ongoing challenge of sheparding self-government, in a land with no relevant history to draw on in the current generation’s lifetime.
49. Michael J. Totten
Loft: The East bank is a part of Israel as well
“Actually, a nation called Jordan is on the East bank. Maybe you’ve heard of it.”
Since Jordan’s population is 50 percent palestinian + a beautiful palestinian queen, why are US so persistent to impose a third arab country on the former Mandate ???
Trumpledor: why are US so persistent to impose a third arab country on the former Mandate ???
Something has to be done with the 2.5 million Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. Nationalizing people who hate you (ie, a one-state solution) isn’t advisable, and turning your country into Bosnia to get rid of them is obviously never going to happen.
“why are US so persistent to impose a third arab country on the former Mandate”
Gotta keep those gas tanks full. I wish someone in the anti-Israel crowd would have the nuts to come right out and say “The Arabs have all the oil, screw Israel”. I could respect that even if I didn’t agree with it. But they keep demonizing Israel over the Palestinians when all of Israel’s adversaries are bloody abominable human rights hellholes. Makes me puke (as anyone who reads my posts here knows).
54. Michael J. Totten
“Something has to be done with the 2.5 million Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. Nationalizing people who hate you (ie, a one-state solution) isn’t advisable, and turning your country into Bosnia to get rid of them is obviously never going to happen.”
I have some doubts about the 2.5 millions figure and
Allenby bridge is right open…..
Eastern Prussia was purged of germans in 1945,same bloodless solution must apply here.
I do not see any german resistance movement against poland.I heavily add that I am not kahanist but is is the only rational and long lasting solution !
All the money from EU might be devoted to build up arab colonies on the Eastern Bank.I insist on the noun colonies which ,for once,would be properly applied !
“Since Jordan’s population is 50 percent palestinian + a beautiful palestinian queen, why are US so persistent to impose a third arab country on the former Mandate ???”
I messed up here… Jordan’s population is 80% “palestinian” !!!!
Funny why the state department and the leftist crowds never wondered how so many arabs settled so far away from their beloved judenrein peninsula .
There is just a little problem with the article: Golan Heights inhabitants are NOT left wing, they are right wingers – like the majority of Israeli Jews. Yes, you can find a few left-wing settlers from the old time but most people in the Golan live in towns and vote for right-wing parties, juste checks the elections results. Meretz does not get a lot of votes there and that’s logical, Meretz wants to give the Golan to Syria.
Trumpledor: same bloodless solution must apply here.
There is not bloodless way to ethnically-cleanse 2.5 million Palestinians. It’s not a solution anyway. They’d just shoot at you with missiles from Jordan.
I have to say, this sort of talk is absolutely terrible for Israeli PR, and I can’t even believe I’m having this conversation.
Trumpledor: Jordan’s population is 80% “palestinian”
That may be, but it doesn’t bring you an inch closer to resolving this problem. Something still has to be done with the 2.5 million Palestinians. They are no more likely to all move to Jordan than Israelis are all going to pack up for Europe.
Benjamin: There is just a little problem with the article: Golan Heights inhabitants are NOT left wing
A few commenters said that, but I didn’t.
@Michael Totten,
I have to say, this sort of talk is absolutely terrible for Israeli PR, and I can’t even believe I’m having this conversation.
What PR ????
Begin,Shamir said NO and the problem was if not settled ,at least muted.
No” PR” will ever counterweight oil supplies and 57 seats at UN !
At least,US should allow Israel to finish His wars !
I really wonder why Mr Totten accepts the ethnical cleansing of Eastern Prussia whereas the same concept ,after a total defensive victory ,might not apply in Judea Samaria ?
I really wonder why Mr Totten accepts the ethnical cleansing of Eastern Prussia whereas the same concept ,after a total defensive victory ,might not apply in Judea Samaria ?
I don’t support ethnic-cleansing anywhere in the world. Do you have any idea what would happen to me professionally if I did? Why am I even having this conversation?
Ethnic-cleansing used to happen all the time. It doesn’t any more, nor should it.
You want to do to the Palestinians what they want to do to you. The only way it would happen in either direction is by a genocidal, or near-genocidal, bloodbath.
It is not going to happen, and I wouldn’t be okay with it if it did.
“You want to do to the Palestinians what they want to do to you. The only way it would happen in either direction is by a genocidal, or near-genocidal, bloodbath.
It is not going to happen, and I wouldn’t be okay with it if it did.”
How can you compare transfer + resettlements to mass killings ??????
Trumpledor: How can you compare transfer + resettlements to mass killings ??????
Because the only way they’re going to leave is if you force them. And the only way to force them is to kill them in vast numbers.
I’m not exactly sure why this isn’t obvious.
Trumpledor,
Even if I agreed with you–and I emphatically do not agree with you–I wouldn’t be able to say so in public without destroying my career. So there’s really no point arguing with me about it.
Hey Michael –
The comments here indicate a significant chunk of Israelis (like me) have a very different perspective from you on the parallels between the Golan Heights story and the Judea-Samaria story.
I’ll be happy to host you for a visit to the West Bank, where I live on a ridge that overlooks the Tel-Aviv metro area – just like the Golan overlooks the Galilee. I’ve lived here for almost 20 years, and hosted several journalists and foreign groups during Oslo and since.
We can have a nice talk about why a Pali state controlling where I live has become a non-starter in Israeli politics – and why right-wingers keep winning elections here despite how “obvious” some of your opinions about the West Bank seem to you.
You bill yourself as a more objective, in-depth reporter. Is that true – or do you hew to PC distinctions in the Israelis you’ll meet and talk to?
Looking forward to hearing from you –
Joshua Ben-David
Peduel
I’m not exactly sure why this isn’t obvious.
No it is not since so many wished to leave prior to the artificially supplied “palestinian economical growth” .
Make no mistake Mr Totten, I previously accepted arab presence on our territory but their insistence to cleanse all their countries of Jews and to forbid jewish presence in our holy shrines speaks volume !
It will be my last post on this subject ,Michael
I promise ….
A very interesting article, written by a Japanese journalist, on the Palestinian people.
email | 11/6/02 | Yashiko Sagamori
Posted on 27/01/2003 23:59:04 by ladyesk
If you are so sure that “Palestine, the country, goes back through most of recorded history”, I expect you to be able to answer a few basic questions about that country of Palestine:
When was it founded and by whom? What were its borders? What was its capital? hat were its major cities? What constituted the basis of its economy? What was its form of government? Can you name at least one Palestinian leader before Arafat? Was Palestine ever recognized by a country whose existence, at that time or now, leaves no room for interpretation? What was the language of the country of Palestine? What was the prevalent religion of the country of Palestine? What was the name of its currency? Choose any date in history and tell what was the approximate exchange rate of the Palestinian monetary unit against the US dollar, German mark, GB pound, Japanese yen, or Chinese yuan on that date. And, finally, since there is no such country today, what caused its demise and when did it occur? You are lamenting the “low sinking” of “once proud” nation. Please tell me, when exactly was that “nation” proud and what was it so proud of? And here is the least sarcastic question of all: If the people you mistakenly call “Palestinians” are anything but generic Arabs collected from all over — or thrown out of — the Arab world, if they really have a genuine ethnic identity that gives them right for self-determination, why did they never try to become independent until Arabs suffered their devastating defeat in the Six Day War?
I hope you avoid the temptation to trace the modern day “Palestinians” to the Biblical Philistines: substituting etymology for history won’t work here.
The truth should be obvious to everyone who wants to know it. Arab countries have never abandoned the dream of destroying Israel; they still cherish it today. Having time and again failed to achieve their evil goal with military means, they decided to fight Israel by proxy. For that purpose, they created a terrorist organization, cynically called it “the Palestinian people” and installed it in Gaza, Judea, and Samaria. How else can you explain the refusal by Jordan and Egypt to unconditionally accept back the “West Bank” and Gaza, respectively? The fact is, Arabs populating Gaza, Judea, and Samaria have much less claim to nationhood than that Indian tribe that successfully emerged in Connecticut with the purpose of starting a tax-exempt casino: at least that tribe had a constructive goal that motivated them. The so called “Palestinians” have only one motivation: the destruction of Israel, and in my book that is not sufficient to consider them a nation” — or anything else except what they really are: a terrorist organization that will one day be dismantled. In fact, there is only one way to achieve peace in the Middle East. Arab countries must acknowledge and accept their defeat in their war against Israel and, as the losing side should, pay Israel reparations for the more than 50 years of devastation they have visited on it. The most appropriate form of such reparations would be the removal of their terrorist organization from the land of Israel and accepting Israel’s ancient sovereignty over Gaza, Judea, and Samaria. That will mark the end of the Palestinian people. What are you saying again was its beginning?
You are absolutely correct in your understanding of the “Palestinians” murderous motives. I am afraid however that you, along with 99% of the population of this planet have missed the beginning of WWIII (the enemy call it Jihad) quite a few years ago. The siege of the US embassy in Tehran in 1979, an event to which the latest Nobel Peace Prize winner had so miserably failed to respond, can be very well used as the day WWIII stepped out of the pages of the Koran and into the current events.
I pray the United States and Israel lead the world to victory in this war. Come to think of it, there is no choice, be you a Christian, a Jew, or even, believe it or not, a Muslim.
This article was written by Yashiko Sagamori Nov 6, 2002.
Israel’s complex political situation makes trite categorisations of ‘Left’ and ‘Right’ as demonstrated in some of the comments above both simplistic and irrelevant in my view.
Today’s reality (and I think this is the case the world over) has made the traditional political maps nothing more than a trap of fossilised thinking. It is never helpful or productive (although often easy and comforting) to categorise people into convenient boxes according to their particular characteristics. The modern world is far more nuanced than such thinking can accommodate.
One of the many joys of living in the Golan is the tolerant and respectful relations between groups of many different political, ideological and religious (or not) persuasions. That wasn’t achieved by knee-jerk stereotyping of others.
Dr Trumpeldor.
You can’t win your argument re: transfer with Mr Totten. Displacing populations has become a no-no with most Westerners. The Arabs have no such squeemishness, they do their best to get rid of whole populations & the world for the most part ignores it.
Egypt is completing the elimination of the remnants of the Copts. In Darfur, even genocide is acceptable to the West as is the war on Sudan’s non-Muslim South.
Did you read the article by Phyliss Chesler on the Muslim war on Hindus? No one cares about this in the West.
Serbs were ethnically cleansed from Kosovo. Who cared?
To form a Palestinian state, at least a 100,000 Jews must be evicted from their homes. And, we are expected to do the job ourselves.
The goal of the Arabs has always been to eliminate our presence in the region.
No phony agreement with Abbas will change that goal one iota.
We cannot have peace, I believe this is only wishful thinking. At best, we can have a state of non-war & this can be achieved only by the use of overwhelming military force & disproportionate responses to any hostile act as well as preemptive strikes to keep our enemies weak. Unfortunately, this is not the current thinking among our defeatist political elites.
There is no such thing as a benign ethnic cleansing. The very concept of ethnic cleansing should be abhorrent in a modern civilized society.
Yet the numbers of Jews living in the Muslim world continues to drop at a rapid rate every single day and nobody important seems to notice.
http://www.cjnews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14960&Itemid=86
Quid Pro Que, an eye for an eye until we’re all blind, or dead.
PRIORITIES,
R
Ben David: I’ll be happy to host you for a visit to the West Bank, where I live on a ridge that overlooks the Tel-Aviv metro area – just like the Golan overlooks the Galilee. We can have a nice talk about why a Pali state controlling where I live has become a non-starter in Israeli politics.
Been there, done that, will write about it. I get it. And I don’t think you will argue with me about it.
Terry: Displacing populations has become a no-no with most Westerners.
It most certainly has. It’s also a big no-no in Israel.
The Arabs have no such squeemishness
Indeed they do not, and this is a major reason why I support Israel.
#75 Michael Totten.
I wouldn’t be so sure about transfer being a big no-no in Israel. To be sure, our media & chattering classes blabber on about coexistence & perhaps, many people don’t like to admit their real opinion if questioned by a foreign reporter. But, I have to tell you, almost everyone I know would like to throw the Arabs out. And, I’m not talking about extreme right-wing people, most people I know are apolitical, not religious, just regular middle-class people. Among young people that I know, many of whom are in the IDF, this is virtually an unanimous opinion.
“Trumpledor: Jordan’s population is 80% “palestinian”
That may be, but it doesn’t bring you an inch closer to resolving this problem. Something still has to be done with the 2.5 million Palestinians. They are no more likely to all move to Jordan than Israelis are all going to pack up for Europe.”
It’s more 1.5 million in Judea and Samaria and the idea is not to move them to Jordan but to make Jordan take care of them. If Jordan is the Palestinian State it will be much easier to close a deal about the borders, the refugees, and even Jerusalem as Jordan already has a capital.
#77 Benjamin.
Jordan will never voluntarily accept any responsibility for Palestinians in the West Bank. And, rather than Jordan absorbing the West Bank, it is far more likely that ”Palestine” will absorb Jordan.
“Jordan will never voluntarily accept any responsibility for Palestinians in the West Bank.”
Jordan will do it when we convince ourselves first that there is no other solution. And Jordan will not stay an Hashemite monarchy forever. One day the Palestinians will rule the country and this day peace will be possible.
From my experience, Terry is right that deep down many Israelis favor Palestinian ethnic cleansing, and the Palestinians know this. Do you think this explains their behavior? Just a bit?
#79 Benjamin.
I’ve often said that the Hashemite regime will be overthrown. But, what will replace it? In all likliehood, it will be some sort of Islamist regime, in effect, Hamas.
So, I doubt if this will bring peace.
This is likely with or without a Palestinian state in Judea & Samaria – and, this is a further reason why population transfer is a good idea.
You know, there are no good options here, only options that increase or decrease our security.
Hi Terry,
Each time we talk about transfer, Mr Totten will shriek
We might remember him that as Jews and not Christian,we are not sacrificial lambs…
I am sure ,should he look at war laws in the Talmud,he would faint …..
#81 Trumpeldor.
I’m kind of simple-minded, it must have something to do with where I come from.
I only understand winning & losing.
We can’t afford to lose. I’m unable to understand any other way of looking at things.
Many in the West, Israel included, have lost all moral clarity, they are governed by a kind of wishy-washy sentimentality, an inability to face reality. Wishful thinking has replaced analysis. They think life is like what they see on TV, there’s always a happy ending. They just can’t understand that civilization is something that requires sacrifice, that it must be fought for, that barbarism must be defeated.
There is nothing moral in tolerating intolerence.
This culture of political correctness is killing the West.
#70 Trumpeldor – Yashiko Sagamori is not a Japanese journalist. She is a Jewish woman living in NYC: http://www.middleeastfacts.com/yashiko/ Her column that you posted is from that website. If I remember right (it’s been a few years) she says she is employed as an Information Technology consultant.
She is right that Palestine is not and never has been an internationally recognized independent country. But neither have a number of other territories around the world. That doesn’t make them or their citizens non-entities.
Look, I am a Zionist. I am a right-wing hawk who would love to see Israel crush its enemies. I have been active in support of Israel, in my personal life, outside of Comments and Talkback sections. But to say things like there is no Palestine or Palestinian Territories, that there is no such thing as Palestinians, that “Jordan is Palestine,” to advocate population transfer, etc. doesn’t do Israel any good. These things are out of touch with the rest of the world. If anything, these ideas hurt support for Israel, not help.
#Dikehopper
“These things are out of touch with the rest of the world. If anything, these ideas hurt support for Israel, not help.”
Sorry, we disagree and I hope ,as a Jew, to remain out of touch….
In the meantime,have you ever visited Israel ?
If Yes, come back because some more hinkings around Maale Adumim or Hebron are needed to make you inderstand the liliputian area involved are .I am ready to accompany you.
If no, come and see by yourself
In the meantime ,google map is a great tool to make you grasp the concept of Israel waist line around Ariel’s buldge
To Dikehopper, we appreciate your support. However, the purpose of Israeli policy is not – or should not be – to win your support or Michael Totten’s. Nor to lose it. The purpose of Israeli security/foreign/defense policy should be, as Terry might say it, to win. Regarding your specific points, you merely repeat the same mantras or pillars of conventional wisdom that are infused with ‘the Palestinian narrative.’ Yes, you as many Jews and even hawkish Israelis, repeat Arab and international propaganda. There is no Palestinian nation, not historically and not in reality; or, if it exists, the ‘Palestinian’ part of such an identity is merely ‘we are the Arabs who will finish the job.’ Without that specific goal, they are merely Arabs living in proximity to the ‘Zionist entity.’
The Palestinian Narrative (and many Israelis have helped build this up, along with the propaganda arms of the Soviet Union, the US State Dept, etc.) is based on a number of lies, including a claim of long-running Arab autonomy in the Land of Israel. This is simply not true. Read Samuel Clemens’ accounts of the land one hundred and fifty years ago. Palestine was merely a province of different disinterested Arab rulers; most of the time these were in Cairo, Damascus, Istanbul, etc. You can say this is irrelevant because ‘now there are Palestinians, and they are a people.’ I see this kind of argument all the time on Israeli web sites – Maariv, etc. ‘They are here, they say they are a people. We have to deal with them.’
On the most basic level, the Arabs called Palestinians are incapable of governing themselves in a state. Or, if they are, it is in a state like ‘Hamastan’ with which Israel can not coexist. All the parameters of Gaza political society will be replicated in the West Bank, if Israel withdraws. Arabs go with the ‘strong horse’ (see: OBL). The PLO is discredited. It is one of the great ironies that two-state solution folks miss, including Michael Totten (Michael, I am grateful that you have revealed your bias; you like Israel, yes. Pro-Israel? No, not unless we continue to bleed forever, several Oslo sacrifices at a time. This is what your position yields, obviously against your own wishes.). The ‘moderates’ in the ‘West Bank’ only exist in ‘control’ (of Ramallah?) because the US and Israel now do for Mahmoud Abbas what they did for King Hussein – they guarantee his existence against the ‘radicals.’ Let the US and Israel withdraw their support or ‘meddling’ in the political affairs of the West Bank Arabs, and he is gone.
The reality is, as an Israeli (and I’ll be back there soon), and a Zionist, and not as a Jewish American hostage to false ideas of Israel as a permanent American protectorate, I don’t need to subscribe to your rules of what is permitted. Michael’s comments that Israel will be committing genocide if it performs some sort of transfer are well off the mark. That’s not genocide. And the suggestions for transfer in recent years, as expressed by people like Benny Elon, are only political transfer. They won’t solve it, either. Something between Elon’s ideas and ‘Kahanist’ unilateral mass transfer will occur, in one form or the other, if Israel is ever to be secure. Sadly, many Israelis have accepted permanent insecurity rather than lose the support or ‘support’ of those who in fact ‘support Israel if she agrees to endless attempts to impose a two-state solution requiring a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza, complete with land bridge.’ Not interested.
And, no, Terry is hardly simple in his thinking. We all know this. He is simply clarifying things for everybody. Making the point that sovereignty is the right and responsibility of a nation to protect its existence, security, citizens and borders.
“…in touch with the rest of the world.”
36 member states of the UN do not recognize Israel, 20 of those are members of the 22 member Arab League.
Perhaps it is that part of the world that is out of touch with the 21st century?
Egypt controlled the Gaza Strip from 1949 until 1967. Nobody used the word “occupation” then.
From 1948 until 1967 the West Bank was under Jordanian rule. Nobody used the word “occupation” then.
The Jordanians and Egyptians have long since washed their hands of the Palestinians (and with good reasons), yet who accuses Egypt and Jordan of ethnically cleansing the Palestinians from their lands (which they both have)?
There is not one single nation on this planet that has the moral ground to stand in accusation of Israel, not one, not ever.
WHO
STANDS
ACCUSED?,
R
Hadar, that was an evocative and fluent expression of a political position which is at once steeped in denial and cleverly dismissive of those who disagree with such a fantasy. That your fantasy is shared by many Israelis doesn’t really change this.
MJT, I have to disagree with you. Ethnic cleansing implies violence and mass killings, and there I think you’re absolutely right — relatively few Israelis right or left would endorse or accept a Darfurian solution, unless it is a last gasp war.
However, a great many of the Israelis I know might never say in public, or in plain words, that they support large-scale population relocation, but the longer I hang out with them, the clearer it becomes that they’d support a negotiated involuntary population transfer in a heartbeat.
Fact is, though, that’s an oxymoron and won’t happen — the Arab states and the Western world would fiercely disapprove, and Jews and Arabs both would violently resist any deals.
Too bad the world hasn’t had the same concern for Tibetans, Kurds, etc etc. Seems bizarre that hardly anyone I talk to knows the name of Grozny, but everyone clucks sourly over Cast Lead.
#85 Larry in the Silicon.
I don’t deny Palestinians a right to call themselves a nationality or a people. It doesn’t really matter to me if they have a history or not, if they have a distinct cultural tradition, it’s all besides the point. They exist, they have to be dealt with. My concerns are only security, I have no need to justify self-defense no matter what form it takes. Obviously, I am not talking about genocide even though that is exactly what the Arabs would do to us if they could.
Everyone has such very high ”moral” standards when it’s applied to someone else.
Americans did not hesitate to drop atomic bombs on Japan to save their soldier’s lives. In ending the war, they also saved millions of Japanese lives.
There was no hesitation either in fire-bombing German cities full of civilians.
But somehow, when it comes to Jews, self-defense suddenly becomes a ”disproportionate response” -
Terry, you misunderstood me a bit. I am not justifying self-defense, I am explaining that the ‘West Bank’ is Jewish land, at least in principle, and trying to point out that ‘Palestinianism’ is largely a mechanism to control or defeat Israel – including in the hands of outsiders.
All the rest is true. Mention the word ‘Israel’ here to people here now and you get the sour clucking or expressions that Pam mentions. We exist for most of the non-Jewish world to be victims, not much else. We are to be supported as long as we agree to lose or to be battered endlessly, and that includes actual, real victims like the four drivers from Beit Haggai. We are caricatured, and the ‘universalists’ among us attempt desperately to draw a distinction between themselves and the ‘bad Jews.’ This is an old story. We have to accept that even good-hearted people like Dikehopper and Michael Totten do not really accept that our right to live as Jews is the same as ours. These are deep, culturally-transmitted attitudes that only will begin to disappear a few generations AFTER some Israeli leadership begins to act on the ideas of the late ‘Gandhi’ (Aluf Zeevi) or Raful Eitan.
Talk about self-delusion.
How can one do this:
“However, a great many of the Israelis I know might never say in public, or in plain words, that they support large-scale population relocation”
without that:
“violence and mass killings”
while doing this:
“ethnic cleansing”
P.S. One must not get confused by replacing “ethnic cleansing” with “population relocation”.
Seriously? My post linking Palestinian anti-Israeli sentiment and the prevalence of desire for ethnic cleansing among Israelis didn’t make it past the comment moderator? I mean, if Palestinians were to read this comment thread, with numerous Israelis basically advocating for ethnic cleansing of the West Bank, what policies do you advise them to pursue in response?
Those of who are advocating “population transfer” (a nice phrase that really means ethnic cleansing) are seriously deluding yourselves if you think I’m being PC or leftist by objecting to it. You’re advocating the political position of Meir Kahane, and as you well know his political party is banned in the State of Israel.
Ariel Sharon, Benjamin Netanyahu, Avidgor Lieberman–right-wingers all–would say you are extremists. I know right-wing Israelis who use the word “fascism” to describe what you’re advocating. You are not going to convince the Israeli right-wing that this is an acceptable action plan, let alone the Israeli center, me, or anyone else in the world.
No Israeli government has ever even annexed the West Bank, let alone considered “cleansing” its population. Forget it.
Larry: We have to accept that even good-hearted people like Dikehopper and Michael Totten do not really accept that our right to live as Jews is the same as ours.
Are you kidding me? You’re suggesting that I’m anti-Semitic for opposing the ethnic-cleansing of Palestinians?
You are on very thin ice indeed with me right now.
Don’t make me purge the comments section.
Rashad: Seriously? My post linking Palestinian anti-Israeli sentiment and the prevalence of desire for ethnic cleansing among Israelis didn’t make it past the comment moderator?
Um, yes, actually it did, as you can see. The comment moderator is a human (me). It is not automatic.
Rashad: I mean, if Palestinians were to read this comment thread, with numerous Israelis basically advocating for ethnic cleansing of the West Bank, what policies do you advise them to pursue in response?
Well, Rashad, many Palestinians not only advocate the ethnic-cleansing of Jews, they act on it. But if I were Israeli, I wouldn’t support the ethnic-cleansing of Palestinians in response to it. I expect no less from Palestinians.
And in a partial defense of the handful of Israelis above, they’ll never actually do anything about their dark fantasies. Many Palestinians, meanwhile, attempt to implement the threat. They elected Hamas, while Israel banned Meir Kahane’s political party.
#90 Larry in the Silicon.
I’m sorry, I wasn’t clear, I did not mean to imply that you needed to justify self-defense. I only meant to say that there is no need to justify self-defense.
When people say they want to kill us, I take them seriously. Given our history, it is absolutely insane not to take such a threat seriously. And, we know that the world will do nothing to stop genocide against us. All we can expect is another Holocaust memorial – the world loves memorials for dead Jews.
While I agree that our claim to the West Bank is a valid one, I see it primarily as a security issue. Call it strategic depth, whatever, but we cannot have another hostile state so close to our major population centres.
@Terry
“While I agree that our claim to the West Bank is a valid one, I see it primarily as a security issue. Call it strategic depth, whatever, but we cannot have another hostile state so close to our major population centres.”
I second that.
I do not want our kids in fatigues to patrol kakylia or Jenin either.
Let us them live in their cities if they remain quiet but they won’t…..
And if they start very serious troubles,they must be expelled to their starting point:jordan which will morph one day or another into palestine
If Terry does not believe me,he might check all the different names of the so called “palis” like al mograbi, al haurani, al kurdi which all point to their origins,faraway from our beloved country.
They just came in after 1917,their illegal entries being encouraged by the brits who wanted to scuttle our self determination project
#94 Michael Totten.
I don’t think you’re a leftist nor that you are being overly politically correct.
I’m also sure you’re not some kind of closet anti-Semite. You have an opinion formed by your background & circumstances just as I have opinions based on my experiences in life. I can assure you, I am not an extremist nor any kind of fascist.
I don’t know much about Kahane so I won’t make any comment, all I know is that his party was banned & he advocated population transfer.
I think, however, that eventually we will come to circumstances that leave little option except some form of ethnic cleansing, that there just won’t be any other choice. The Palestinians will not give up their dream of eliminating us, they will continue attacking us no matter what we do.
Thank you, Michael, for this fascinating post. And I am also grateful for the photos of sites I recently passed by, but neglected to photograph!
Terry,
What makes you think they’ll leave you alone if you force them to all move to Jordan? They’ll shoot you from Jordan with missiles after they overthrow the Jordanian monarchy. Your biggest security threats in the region by far are beyond Israel’s borders, in Lebanon and Iran.
Anyway, before you convince me that this is a good idea, you have to convince Israel. And you cannot do that, not when the political party that carried this torch has been outlawed.
No one who advocates war crimes or terrorism against anyone in the world for any reason is welcome to post here. The only reason I’m not banning you and the handful of others above is because you have somehow deluded yourselves into believing that non-violent ethnic cleansing is possible, that you can do this without committing war crimes or terrorism.
So I’m (just barely) giving you a pass, but you’re right on the edge, and I strongly suggest you drop it. We are not going to have this discussion every time I write about Israel. My comments section will become intolerably toxic, it will reflect badly on me personally if I let it happen, and I will not stand for it.
Just to clarify- Kahana’s party wasn’t banned because it advocated “transfer” or ethnic cleansing if you like. Rehavam Zeevi’s party (Moledet) ran on this ticket and was legit, though seen by most as the right extreme marker.
Kahana’s party was banned on the charges of racism.. I think- I was in my early teens at the time.
#85 Trumpeldor – Thanks truly for the invite. I’ve been invited to Israel before but never made it. Maybe someday. (Right now I’m trying to adjust to retirement. It’s horrible. I need to figure out what to do with myself.) I’ve been following Israel’s problems with its neighbors fairly closely since 1967 but, you know what? If I did visit, I think I would be most interested in simple sightseeing, wandering around, meeting ordinary Israelis. I think I would really enjoy that. Maybe someday.
@Michael,
Since I am a part of “the handful”,I just allow myself to drop this http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10522.htm
It is 2005 material but I think the mood among Israeli citizens has “ripened”….
Jordanian regime is doomed anyways and will soon turn into a pali islamist regime,eager to join the same tribes, squatting on the western bank.I am not so eager to see that but Middle east is Middle east !
I will leave Terry to answer since you asked him specifically him to do so.
Daniel: Kahana’s party wasn’t banned because it advocated “transfer” or ethnic cleansing if you like…Kahana’s party was banned on the charges of racism.
Isn’t that a bit like busting Al Capone for tax evasion?
Can we change the subject to something a little less nasty and fractious?
#102 Michael Totten.
Of course I don’t think they’ll leave us alone, you’re right, they’ll shoot missiles from Jordan. And I’m not trying to convince you that transfer is a good idea, I’m sure there’s no argument I could make that would convince you.
And, for sure, the greatest threat to us is from Iran, Lebanon, & Syria.
Actually, I don’t think the Palestinians are much of a priority, I think our politicians are obsessed with this issue, we have many other important problems to deal with.
But, I would be curious to know what you think is a solution, not just with the Palestinians, but with the real & potential threats facing us. Iran & it’s proxies will not just go away. Egypt & Jordan could suddenly become very much more hostile.
Considering the ideology that motivates them, what options are there?
And, while we are target #1, this is also America’s problem.
About a year ago, I think, there was a survey amongst Palestinians about leaving the area.
I believe that about a third said they would leave for other areas, not just in the middle east but elsewhere, ie Europe and the Americas if the inducements were sufficient. The same things that the Brits used as inducements to lure from the surrounding “colonially -created countries could be used to lure them away. And why not?
Many in the are already do leave of their own accord for that reason.
Say no more.
“Rashad, many Palestinians not only advocate the ethnic-cleansing of Jews, they act on it.”
Um, when was the last actual attempt at ethnic cleansing by Palestinians? Seriously, I must have missed this in the history books. I guess you could argue 1948? The Israelis meanwhile partially succeeded in 1948 and 1967.
“And in a partial defense of the handful of Israelis above, they’ll never actually do anything about their dark fantasies.”
Yes, because there is never state sanctioned Israeli violence against Palestinians. And clearly this article about settler violence is made up: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3882958,00.html
“Many Palestinians, meanwhile, attempt to implement the threat. They elected Hamas, while Israel banned Meir Kahane’s political party.”
Yes, because no Israeli political leaders have ever advocated or helped take part in ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. Oh wait.
I’ll give you Hamas, do you really blame Palestinians for turning more radical in response to the Oslo process? They basically made a ton of concessions by agreeing to different zones of control in the WB (which led to more, not less internal checkpoints), and reduced violence tremendously (seriously, check the stats then and now) and all that happened is a continual erosion of their territory by settlements, and further restrictions on East Jerusalem. This continued under both Labor and Likud governments.
Then, when there are nonviolent protests against said encroachments, the Israelis harass and arrest the organizers (http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/144668/the_violent_repression_of_peaceful_palestinian_protests_continues/) Again, I mean politically, as a Palestinian, how would you react? What party would seem to have a more promising approach? The accomodationists or the radicals? Also, the election of Hamas was largely driven by the perception (wrongly it turns out. Shocking I know) that they would be less corrupt than Fatah.
Terry,
There is no solution right now. I suspect that’s why many, like yourself, entertain extreme possible solutions. Nothing moderate or reasonable is going to work. I certainly agree with you about that much.
It won’t always be this way, but it will be for a long time, I think.
Rashad: do you really blame Palestinians for turning more radical in response to the Oslo process?
Absolutely. They should have taken the deal. They didn’t even make a counter-offer. And because they didn’t, I switched sides and now support Israelis instead of Palestinians in this conflict.
All the rocket attacks out of Gaza are Hamas’ (weak) attempt at the ethnic cleansing of Israel. They say as much themselves.
Rashad: “when was the last actual attempt at ethnic cleansing by Palestinians”
I do not know you so I cannot say either you are trying to make poor joke while trying to get out of sticky situation or you are just ignorant. Please, help me here.
Let me help you. Just because you have will, but do not have the ability does not mean you are fooling anybody. And you acted on just today. Does word “qassam” mean anything to you?
Rashad: I mean politically, as a Palestinian, how would you react?
I sure as hell wouldn’t become a terrorist. There is no excuse for massacring people. None. Don’t make me warn you like I warned the others. (Ok, I just warned you.) I’ve kept a more or less civil comments section for eight years, and I do it by banning supporters of terrorists, racists, and war criminals. Some blog hosts don’t care about this sort of thing, and their comments sections turn into sewers. That will not happen here.
MJT: “Isn’t that a bit like busting Al Capone for tax evasion?”
Maybe, but my point was that it’s not against the law to run to parliament on the transfer ticket, nor to talk about it.
It’s considered beyond the pale by many (less with each failed peace talk) and you wont hear the MSM discussing it, but it’s not illegal.
“Absolutely. They should have taken the deal. They didn’t even make a counter-offer. And because they didn’t, I switched sides and now support Israelis instead of Palestinians in this conflict.”
Same exact thing happened to me.
I am a Spaniard who din’t know much about the conflict at the time, and I switched sides after Camp David – Taba. I couldn’t understand how come the deal failed, and after research I blamed the failure on Arafat.
I also began to investigate about the History of the conflict, and what I learned left me speechless about the enormous amount of propaganda that I had been told by the Spanish media, and the low quality of their reporting.
By the way, I have been following many of your posts the last two years or so, recently here and in your previous blog. I think you do a great work. This post in particular sheds some light into questions I have often wondered about the Golan Heights.
Thanks.
Though the Talmud is not for sissies, Trump, Michael could have read other things in it as well, verging on the silly to us moderns. Let’s regard Michael as the fine fellow he is, and explore the limits that he feels govern even him.
He cannot advocate transfer even to treat it advocatus diaboli. Or this means the end of his career. Whether this means he will never eat lunch in the Middle East again, or never be received in Western media circles, or lose his press pass, or be killed and eaten by the barbarians he deals with, or what, he is obviously feeling bound by it. We all can only do so much and I suppose we can only guess what may be his own personal Room 101.
However I think he will bear the treatment of the problem under his gaze, if we discuss it temperately. Looked at logistically, armies have been evacuating and relocating civilian populations since the dawn of time, with varying degrees of nicety.
In the US itself and worldwide, various zones are cleared of people on a short- or long-term basis willy-nilly in the public interest – from Katrina to Mt St Helens, asbestos to Gulf shrimping, from crime scenes to movie locations, from the Cross Bronx Expressway to Kelo.
Millions of people are moved from place to place each day not altogether willingly. In a humane system, this rarely leads to harm, more rarely to serious harm. How many arrests in the US each year? How many resisting arrests? How many that aren’t trumped-up by some flatfoot stung by an obscenity or a my-taxes-pay-your-salary?
In an ideally cooperative model, the Pennsylvania National Guard rolls up all along the flood plains in the Wyoming Valley and goes house-o-house while advertising rendezvous points. 99% or so of the people will come along and 1% will ride it out, no problem, but if you insist and have time, you would go house to house and spend a few minutes wrangling with the 1% to unass and get on the trucks.
Even if the zone were to be soon engulfed by Godzilla, I suppose the 1% of those who stays after the wrangling would be left to their fates. People needing help like the disabled would have whatever sort of special help provided – ambulance, oxygen, etc.
So under this model of ideal compliance, it would be easy. Likewise, if perhaps an Arafat or some respected, trusted leader had at one time had the will, he might once have had the ability to order or guide his people across borders or onto vessels. In fact, as we all know, this broadly happened when Arabic radio broadcasts urged Arabs to leave Israel, the better that it be conquered. I’m sure that evacuation process went very well.
You could have good self-evacuation in a number of scenarios. But let’s presume some degree of noncompliant populace and/or nonpermissive environment. American Indians, for instance, put up varying levels of resistance in the various shuffling-around they got from the USG. But I am thinking that even in Trail of Tears territory, few of them actually died.
Put it this way: Israel would not be sending them to Outer Mongolia or the South Pole but just over to the neighbors’. It would be like putting them across from San Diego to Tijuana. In fact, if the US ever decided to energetically deport its untold millions, the process would look much the same.
Say for argument’s sake we allow 1% casualties. 2500 deaths to move 2.5 million people is not bad. It’s not “vast numbers.” 10% casualties? Let me observe that neither Germany nor Japan fought to the death of 10% of their populace in WWII. How many were killed vs moved in Jenin? In Ramadi? And the ones that fight are the ones you really want to kill anyway.
So transfer is absolutely doable with low casualties (they’re low because they’re not mine). What happens to them in Jordan, etc., stays in Jordan. No one will care.
Compared to Barak’s 2000 offer rejected by Arafat how much more Abbas will get had all agree to his initial conditions?
#105 Trumpeldor – The article you cited is from 2002, not 2005: http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/more-israeli-jews-favor-transfer-of-palestinians-israeli-arabs-poll-finds-1.50646 Wasn’t that at the height of the second intifada? Since then the security barrier has been built, Israel implemented Operation Defensive Shield, Arafat is gone, and the Israeli civilian terror casualty rate has taken an incredible nosedive. Is there a more current poll on this subject? I wouldn’t think that the mood among Israeli citizens on this subject has “ripened”.
…..To anybody – let’s have a friendly debate. I say that Israel is a far safer country than the U.S. in terms of homicide and assault. I don’t know the figures, but I also suspect that blacks assault and kill whites at a higher ratio in the U.S. than Israeli Arabs assault and kill Israeli Jews in Israel. I know where to find these figures for the U.S. I don’t know where to find these figures for Israel. So anybody who favors transfer of Israeli Arabs please help me, find the data from Israel, and prove me wrong.
Yes, I’m setting a trap. But I’m serious. If I am right or close to right, you would also have to favor transferring blacks from the U.S. And everyone from Michael Moore and Jimmy Carter on the left to Rush Limbaugh and Mark Levin on the right would call you a racist.
Look, for what it’s worth, I’ve used the same argument against those, leftists, who warn of the dangers in visiting Israel. Again, Israel has a low violent crime rate. Look at the statistics.
I’ll be gone for two or three days and won’t be able to see responses till then. But I’ll check back.
I have absolutely had enough of this creepy advocacy for ethnic cleansing.
If you can’t respect how I feel about this, at least stay on topic as required in Guideline 2 above.
Sorry – I started that one hours ago, before I read of your utter distaste for the subject, and I will I guess let it alone for now.
The problem is, it seems like the worst solution…except for all the others.
Amputation is awful and discussing it seems creepy…try gangrene.
I haven’t read the whole article, but I did look through the comments section.
The only possible solution for now, unless something horrifyingly catastrophic changes the way your average Arab thinks is the maintenance of the status quo with some important changes (destroying Hamas, seriously weakening Fatah etc.). Transfer is out of the question because 10,000s of people will die.
As for the rest of the Middle East, Israel or America will have to deal with Assad and anyone who succeeds him. Iranian government has to be removed by force, because the “Green” movement will take decades probably.
nekulturny: Sorry – I started that one hours ago, before I read of your utter distaste for the subject, and I will I guess let it alone for now.
Thanks, I appreciate that. But I’d really like you to leave this subject alone forever on my blog, not just “for now.” Ethnic cleansing is a serious war crime, second only to genocide.
Very well, Michael, though I fear the topic will recur…
If we are to speak within bounds, then, I agree with another poster here that the notion of the Golan settler contemning the WB settler is risible. Saying the former wasn’t ethnic cleansing but the latter was? I don’t see a distinction I recognize.
…You do realize, if Israel had ever lost or should ever lose, the very best outcome its non-Muslim population could possibly hope for would be a kindly intended (say, UN- or NATO-run) population transfer.
I will leave it at this: compare the ooh ahh evil evil population transfer as Meir Kahane once or Binyamin Netanyahu now might order it, and as Yoav Galant would execute it;
to same-ol run-of-the-mill ethnic cleansing as Yasir Arafat, Mahmoud Abbas, Mahmoud Ahmedinejad, Sheik Yassin, George Habash, OBL or whoever would order it and Samir Kuntar, Mohammed Atta and Nidal Malik Hasan would carry it out
You see? You see how there is no comparison?
MJT wrote: “There is no solution right now… Nothing moderate or reasonable is going to work. I certainly agree with you about that much.
It won’t always be this way, but it will be for a long time, I think.”
Yes. Which is why all the frantic peace-processing is so wrong-headed.
Ali is correct: the change has to come in the thinking of the Arabs.
But additionally: The Palestinian Arabs are the shock troops, but the conflict isn’t really an Israeli- Palestinian Arab conflict. It was an Arab-Israeli conflict which the Arabs have done their unfortunately-successful best, based upon the concepts and teachings of Islam, to permanently widen into a permanent Muslim – non-Muslim conflict. They all can’t back down from this without being heretical in their own honor-bound eyes. The result is permanent conflict. Everybody needs to realize this. The more realistic goal than the peace phantom is a state of necessity, darura for the Arabs, that they not engage in violence, lest they suffer extremely harmful consequences. A position of weakness invites conflict. A position of strength, including the retention of the Golan Heights and Mount Hermon, invites the necessity of calm.
Any negotiations need to include, on the Arab/Muslim side, far more than the Palestinian Arabs. At a minimum, the Arab League and the OIC would need to accept the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish State – before serious negotiations about any aspect start, really. That way (many taking the plunge together) might allow so many to “lose” face and honor that, effectively, none would “lose” honor.
Y’all already know not to hold your breaths.
I was just making the point that violence, poltical speech, and stated desires for ethnic cleansing are very different from the actually doing it. As Michael pointed out, ethnic cleansing is seen as a terrible war crime. Shooting rockets and killing people is also a terrible war crime, but at least in my mind it doesn’t rise to the level of ethnic cleansing.
Wishing the Palestinians took the deal is fine. They didn’t. Now what? The question is what lessons should and did the Palestinians learn in the wake of it? Camp David was a looooong time ago. My point was merely that the Israelis have done an excellent job convincing the Palestinians that they have no interest in a real peace deal (expanding settlements, operation cast lead, continued violence against Palestinians, oppression of nonviolent resistance movements) just as the Palestinians have convinced the Israelis.
My question is serious though. Put yourselves in the shoes of a Palestinian. What would be your political program for ending occupation, given the above? The last few years have seen record-low violence against Israel, the West Bank, other than a few isolated incidents has been completely peaceful, Hamas even had a de facto 6 month ceasefire, and what did it get them? What steps did Israel take to reassure them that there are rewards for cooperation and decreased violence?
Huh, I just looked up the Qassem stats. Somehow I thought the death toll was higher. Anyway, 27 deaths over 9 years is obviously still a war crime, and a terrible thing, but attempted ethnic cleansing? Again, I don’t want to minimize the human suffering caused by these rockets, and obviously many more have been injured, and many people forced to leave their homes for fear of the attacks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel
Rashad: Put yourselves in the shoes of a Palestinian. What would be your political program for ending occupation, given the above?
I’d sign a peace treaty, establish friendly relations, and all this would be over.
Excellent article. I like the photos. I’ve never been to the area and you manage to bring it alive. Thanks.
“Um, when was the last actual attempt at ethnic cleansing by Palestinians? Seriously, I must have missed this in the history books. I guess you could argue 1948? The Israelis meanwhile partially succeeded in 1948 and 1967.”
Bullshit. 1967 was a war of ethnic cleansing instigated by the Arabs against the Jews which the Arabs fortunately lost (or unfortunatley from your point of view). Let’s recap: Nasser evicted a UN peacekeeping force from the Sinai, mobilized his forces on Israel’s border while the other Arab countries did the same. Then while broadcasting “We’re going to finish what Hitler started” (word-for-word quote) the Arabs imposed a naval blockade on Israel – an act of war. Israel waited *three weeks* while the US tried futilely to resolve the situation peacefully, then finally attacked Egypt. And did *not* invade the West Bank until it was attacked by Jordan from there. In fact Israel secretly begged Jordan’s King Hussein to stay out of the war because they did not want a two-front war.
Liars relying on historical amnesia now say things like “Israel wanted the war, they knew they would win and take over the West Bank”, hoping that people forget little things like Israel was outnumbered 30 or 40 to 1 and did not have nukes at the time. I am so $*&%($%$(*& sick and tired of creeps blaming this conflict on the Jews when OVERWHELMINGLY its perpetuation is the fault fo the Arabs for refusing to accept Israel as a Jewish state.
This site really has turned into a coven of the worst right elements to be found. Too bad. The funny thing is they insist that they are the realists when they are the ones sniffing glue. They are the desperate, wishful thinkers.
Hey guys. There’s this thing called the Israeli economy. What do you think will happen to it if we transfer populations? (a nice euphism, like leaving a forwarding address – throughout history it has only occurred amidst mass death, privation and hardship) Who’s going to buy our high tech products? It’s like the air we breathe, but because you can’t see it, you geniuses talk like it doesn’t exist. Israel needs the world in order to exist. It needs the world from every aspect – economically, diplomatically, politically, militarily. Our enemies don’t, because they’ve been living there forever, they’ve got oil, and because they’re as happy in their ignorance and poverty as pigs in shit. We can’t live that way. That’s where your symmetry breaks down. That’s why the Arabs can get away with shit that we can’t. That’s just the way it is. See the world for what it is, and live in it. Pretend that you’re the prime minister of Israel.
Israel cannot exist, except as a socially advanced, economically developed member of the world. The kind of country you want would not be worthy of existing, and as a practical matter could not exist, because it could not support itself economically or militarily. You guys are actually a lot like our enemies. You can’t deal with complexity, or change, or risk. So you create a black and white world of kill or be killed, and call it reality. Just like the Arabs.
Maybe you’d prefer to live in a pastoral, religious kingdom, without the complexities and anxieties of a modern society. But it will never happen. If the Israeli economy disappears, so does Israel, and so do you. Nobody is going to want to join you in your religious kingdom in the West Bank. Israel will be finished, and so will you.
Gary Rosen;
Yes, it is true that the 1967 war was a war of ethnic cleansing initiated by the Arabs against Israel. It is also true that the Israeli high command knew that it could defeat the Arabs and welcomed the opportunity to do so and change the balance of power in the region. The Israelis did not the start the war with a cynical intention, but finished it to their great advantage.
It’s something I alluded to earlier called complexity. Please, try and get a clue.
“Can we change the subject to something a little less nasty and fractious?”
Did you visit Gamla? There’s nothing quite like reading Josephus’ account of its fall and seeing it right in front of you.
“Can we change the subject to something a little less nasty and fractious?”
Origin of the name “Golan”
Golan in Bashan
01474. Golan, a place east of the Jordan
The LORD GOD appointed Golan in Bashan as a City of Refuge for the slayers.
These are the City of Refuges shall be appointed Kedesh in Galilee in mount Naphtali, and Shechem in mount Ephraim, and Kyriat Arba, which is Hebron, in the mountain of Judah. And on the other side Jordan by Jericho eastward, they assigned Bezer in the wilderness upon the plain out of the tribe of Reuben, and Ramoth in Gilead out of the tribe of Gad, and Golan in Bashan out of the tribe of Manasseh. These six cities are on either side of the Jordan and are under the supervision of the Levites.
These were the cities appointed for all the children of Israel and for the stranger that sojourned among them, that whosoever killed any person unaware might flee there, and not die by the hand of the avenger of blood, until he stood before the congregation. (Joshua 20:1-9). The Golan, a city of Bashan, is on the other side of Jordan by Jericho, of the tribe of Manasseh as one of the six cities of refuge. (Joshua 20:8). The children of Gershon, of the families of the Levites, out of the other half tribe of Manasseh was given Golan in Bashan with her suburbs, to be a city of refuge for the slayer. (Joshua 21:27).
The children of Gershon was one of the sons of Levi. (Genesis 46:11).
The names of the sons of Gershon by their families were Libni, and Shimei. Gershon was the family of the Libnites, and the family of the Shimites: these are the families of the Gershonites. The responsibility of the sons of Gershon in the tabernacle of the congregation was to be the tabernacle, and the tent, the covering thereof, and the hanging for the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and the hangings of the court, and the curtain for the door of the court, which is by the tabernacle, and by the altar round about, and the cords of it for all service thereof. (Numbers 3:18,-26).
Golan is the most northerly of the three cities of refuge that was east of the Jordan River.
The very site of the city is unknown and cannot be determined to its exact location.
The Golan Heights should not be misunderstood for Golan, the City of Refuge.
#130
Excellent points, Mark
#127
You do understand that this whole “conflict and the “suffering” that it brought is completely artificial and unnecessary. There isn’t any other conflict (I’m sure there is, but it isn’t as high-profile) where people are arguing about whether Israel gets to exist or not. It should’ve ended decades ago. It didn’t even have to start.
#111 Michael Totten.
Agreed. However, my fear is that we will be over-taken by events.
Are you familiar with the works of the historian Barbara Tuchman, specifically her book on how the world drifted into WWI?
It has almost nothing to do with right or left. The extremes of both “sides” can be found on both sides of the equation. The scale simply will not balance.
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Every war launched against the nation of Israel is a war of intended extermination. Every uprising, every insurgency, every intifada, every single terrorist act is intended to exterminate or ethnically cleanse all Jews from Israel, from the Middle East, from the Muslim world, from history.
Forever.
Israel was born in a genocidal war that resulted in mass ethnic cleansing (most wars do) on both sides.
Multiple generations of Palestinians have been indoctrinated with hatred in their schools. They will come again and when they do, mass population relocation will very probably be the end result, whether anybody likes it or not.
Sensible people tend to flee war zones in large numbers and then they get called refugees. Refugees from genocidal war zones don’t generally get to return, unless they are on the winning side.
GO
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SPARTANS,
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#135 Ali.
A good article for you to read.
RubinReports. ”A Critical New Text for Undertanding the Middle-East: The Sources of Iranian Negotiating Behavior.”
http://rubinreports.blogspot.com/2010/09/critical-new-text-for-understanding.html
Anyone who wants support for the proposition that the Israeli military command was “spoiling for a fight” in 1967 can find it in Martin van Creveld’s “The Sword and the Olive Branch”. This is undoubtedly where I read it, although I can’t find my copy right now. (He is an Israeli historian and professor at Hebrew University).
“Spoiling for a fight” are his exact words. I remember that I read them, and was startled by it.
It sounds like “ethnic cleansing” or “population transfer” is permissible only when we’re talking about removing Jews from somewhere. Because, if I recall correctly, the only “ethnic cleansing” that has occurred recently has been the forced removal of about 9000 Israelis from Gaza. So, if I have my terms right, the Jews have been “ethnically cleansed” from Gaza.
Am I to understand that this is a given requirement for any future Palestinian State? Will Jews be allowed to live in a future Palestine? If so, why all the hubbub about West Bank settlements? Why not let them stay there, and proclaim that they now fall under PA jurisdiction? The Palestinians would have no problem with that, right?
117. nekulturny,
Let us not be harsh to Michael !
He is a great open minded journalist who live in Oregon
Sincerely,Oregon is a paradise on earth !
Being close to jewels like Crater Lake or Government Village near Mount Hood,you mind is healthy,devoid of any bad feelings .Problem is he tends to project his good feelings towards others who have none .
Terry: Are you familiar with the works of the historian Barbara Tuchman, specifically her book on how the world drifted into WWI?
Yes, I read “A Distant Mirror” long ago, but I haven’t read her book about WWI.
Joshik: Will Jews be allowed to live in a future Palestine?
If it were up to me, yes. But it is not up to me, and the answer is almost certainly no.
Perhaps Rashad here can explain why Israelis tolerate an Arab minority but Arabs won’t stand for a Jewish minority. But perhaps I’m being too hard on him. Maybe he’d let Jews stay in Hebron or wherever after the conflict is settled.
#142 Michael Totten.
”A Distant Mirror” was amazing. I think her study on WWI was titled, ”The Guns of August” & there was another, ”The Proud Tower.” I read them quite some time ago but her thinking influenced me greatly.
Speaking of historians, you might find of interest a work by the French historian Fernand Braudel, ”Civilization & Capitalism – 15th to 18th Century” in three volumes, an incredible work of scholarship.
Also, by Philippe Aries & Georges Duby, ”A History of Private Life – from Pagan Rome to Byzantium”
You can’t understand the present without understanding the past.
http://www.amazon.com/Elusive-Victory-Arab-Israeli-Wars-1947-1974/dp/0840378629
“There is little doubt that neither side wanted the war that broke out in the Middle East on June 6, 1967″
-Elusive Victory – by Trevor N. DuPuy
“Spoiling for a fight” doesn’t sound/read like Martin van Creveld (but I’ll quickly grant its possible given the context). It should go without saying that the IDF “military command” was preparing for war, if they were not then they were not doing their job. The Fedayeen raids launched from Jordan, Lebanon, and mostly from Syria increased dramatically during 1966. Syrian artillery rained down on the Galilee so often during plowing season that the UNTSO commander Carl von Horn called it the “shooting season.” Nasser demanded that the UN forces be withdrawn from the Sinai on May 16, 1967. By May 22nd there were over 100,000 Egyptian troops in the Sinai, the same day that Nasser announced a blockade of the Tiran Straight. All through May of ’67 the Soviets kept insisting to anybody that would listen (which in practice meant everybody that bought Soviet weapons) that the IDF was massing on the Syrian border (they were not, yet). When the blockade of the Tiran Straight was announced the IDF made its decision to strike before they were struck. On May 26th, 1967 Nasser told the Arab Trade Unions Congress that the Arab states were now determined to destroy Israel.
===
MJT – You haven’t read Guns of August? I’m shocked…really.
http://www.amazon.com/Guns-August-Barbara-W-Tuchman/dp/034538623X
Get thee hence young man.
SHOFARS
AT
JERICHO,
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Rashad: “I just looked up the Qassem stats. Somehow I thought the death toll was higher. Anyway, 27 deaths over 9 years is obviously still a war crime, and a terrible thing, but attempted ethnic cleansing?”
I am not going to list everything and qassams are just small example.
Just because Arabs are failures at most of what they do does not mean effort is not there.
Here is an idea for you. Go put on orthodox garb and take stroll through Gaza of WB. When you come back tell us what you saw.
Rashad – Perhaps you could explain what happened to the Hilles clan of Gaza (August, 2008) in such a way that it doesn’t look like population relocation on a small scale?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilles_clan
OR
NOT,
R
MarkC: “Yes, it is true that the 1967 war was a war of ethnic cleansing initiated by the Arabs against Israel. It is also true that the Israeli high command knew that it could defeat the Arabs”
Where do you get this?
Do you even understand that nobody can guaranty outcome of the war until it is over?
Or do you know that some of Israeli leadership had to be replaced due to the pressure?
Or do you know that Soviets were getting to prance too and US was somewhat indifferent to the situation?
Israel was on its own against whole of Arab world plus SU and you are talking about guarantied victory.
Leo;
As I mentioned, I “get this” from an Israeli military historian named Martin van Creveld, whose book I unfortunately cannot locate, but you can look him up on the internet if you are genuinely interested. There are many others who repeat this point of view. The idea of David vs. Goliath has been replaced by another idea, that there were two goliaths, except that one of them was retarded.
FYI
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1400176/1967-Israels-six-day-victory.html
149. MarkC
Leo;
As I mentioned, I “get this” from an Israeli military historian named Martin van Creveld, whose book I unfortunately cannot locate, but you can look him up on the internet if you are genuinely interested. There are many others who repeat this point of view. The idea of David vs. Goliath has been replaced by another idea, that there were two goliaths, except that one of them was retarded.
@Mr Mark c,
During the period preceding the 6 days war,the mood in Israel was dark and people even began to build tombs in massive numbers !
I remember watching newsreels at the movie theaters which displayed rows after rows of brand new russian made modern MIGs21 with smiling Egyption pilot whereas the glorious singer oum kalsoum proudly sang “cut their throats” !
Till the miracle happened through our pilots epic actions.
IDF was not”spoiling for a fight” !
Trumpeldor;
That Israelis were digging mass graves is well known, however, the point of Van Creveld and others is that they were not in the same position to know Israel’s military advantages as the generals.
And there was no miracle. The war was won through decided military advantages that the Israelis had been perfecting since 1948.
It is very frustrating that I cannot find my copy of “The Sword and the Olive”. However, Van Creveld is a highly respected military historian, and is not tainted by extremist left wing bias like other Israeli academics such as Ilan Pappe. Here is another link, which I hesitate to provide because it is from the hated BBC, but it goes to show that this is not a fringe view or something that I made up:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6709173.stm
Whether or not Creveld’s version of history is correct, it is interesting that people have such a pronounced negative reaction to it, and not just the lunatic fringe. To me, it is perfectly logical, and in no way diminishes the enormity of Israel’s achievement in winning the six day war, or the absolute moral rightness of their victory. People have just fallen in love with the david and goliath story, maybe because of its religious overtones, or because of the appeal of the underdog, I don’t know.
MarkC – I understand that Martin van Crevald is “well-respected” and somewhat famous (I have several of his books). I also understand that Martin van Crevald has been utterly and completely wrong on several occasions since 9/11. Not the least of which is his 2008 insistence that HizbAllah had been thrown out of South Lebanon in 2006.
The UN doesn’t even bother to make that claim any longer.
=
Trevor N. DuPuy’s “Elusive Victory” helpfully includes charts and maps. One of those charts (pg.337) is titled “Approximate Land and Air Force Strengths – 1967 War”
Among the details of that chart we learn that the IDF mobilized around 250,000 troops, of which over 200,000 were reservists. Egypt mobilized 210,000, Jordan 55,000, and Syria 63,000 (for a total of 328,000 troops, mostly conscripts and not including the many various Fedayeen groups).
We learn that Israel fielded around 1,000 tanks (200 M-48′s, 250 Centurians, 150 AMX-13′s, and 400 Shermans). While the combined Arab armies fielded a little over 2,300 tanks (1,300 Egyptian, 750 Syrian, and 288 Jordanian).
We also learn that while Israel had around 286 combat aircraft, the Arabs had over 680.
Van Crevald and other’s revisionism notwithstanding, I’ve read dozens of history books and biographies about the 1967 war and in not one of them can I find an IDF officer who was confident of victory on June 5th, 1967. Ezer Weizman (who helped plan and directed the surprise air attacks) was far from confident that it would work (On Eagles Wings). Almost all of them (Avarham Tamir – A Soldier in Search of Peace) refer to the IDF’s 1967 plans as something of an extreme gamble that could have failed at any time and any such failure would have resulted in a disaster for Israel. Even the always combative Sharon (Warrior) considered the issue in doubt until his division took Abu-Ageila and the Egyptian high command panicked.
The only thing that the IDF high command was certain about on June 5th, 1967 was that their troops were better trained and better motivated then the bulk of the Arab troops. Oh, and that the original AMX-13/75 was a sick French joke on every tanker that had the misfortune to be assigned to one.
SCREAMING
IN THE
LIBRARY,
R
MarkC: “Yes, it is true that the 1967 war was a war of ethnic cleansing initiated by the Arabs against Israel. It is also true that the Israeli high command knew that it could defeat the Arabs”
Many high commands are overconfident. How many High Commands thought that WWI would be over by Christmas? The outcome of a war cannot be predicted, and saying that the Israeli high command “knew” it could defeat the Arabs is hindsight. Even so, the confidence of the IDF was not boundless, and neither was the faith the politicians had in it. The chief of staff (Rabin) suffered a nervous breakdown in the first week or two of the crisis, when he saw the policy which he had advised(retaliation against Arab provocations, without escalating into war) fail disastrously, resulting in an unexpected crisis leading to a war he did not want. After a long nap (24 hours or so) he recovered, and performed admirably.
Also, note that the Israeli Goverment (which makes the decisions, after all… remember?) did not share the IDF’s enthusiasm for war, and stalled as long as possible, hoping for the situation to be resolved some other way. The older members of the government (sometimes mocked by the younger generals) had lived through the WWII, and knew quite well that promises of victory are not to be trusted.
I am basing my statements on Ami Gluska’s account of this period (titled “Eshkol, give the order!”) which is highly recommended. Not sure whether it’s available in English. It’s many times more informative than Tom Segev’s account, as it concentrates on the decision makers.
Render – yes, van Crevald did use the very words “spoiling for a fight” (sorry, I didn’t see your first response).
Certainly, Creveld has been wrong, and he may be wrong here, although I think the mistakes you’re referring to involved current analysis and not historical scholarship. “The Sword and the Olive” came out thirty years after the six day war.
I do not want to get into a battle of the sources. After this little debate started I read through the relevant portions of Michael Oren’s history, and although he does not stand for the proposition that the high command was “spoiling for a fight”, he alludes to many statements by Hod, Weizman, Dayan, and others, indicating a high level of confidence in the military outcome. Given some of the personalities involved, one could certainly infer a “spoiling for a fight” attitude. I will not cite to specific examples, anyone who is interested can read it and make his own decisions. By the way, if Van Creveld’s contention has evern been directly challenged by other historians, I’d be interested to hear about it.
And actually, whether they were “spoiling for a fight” or not confident, it’s not really such an earth-shattering issue, is it? The only reason I brought it up is because Gary Rosen called me a liar, and I wanted to at least be able to point to scholarship, something that seldom makes it into his low-browed, obscenity-laced screeds.
Jonathon Levy – I agree with your comments, but they are somewhat outside the scope of the debate. My point, which was a narrow one that was first raised in a previous post, was that the Israeli high command was aware of its military advantages in 1967, saw war with the Arabs as inevitable after the closure of the straits of Tiran (as indeed, it was), and that certain of the bolder personalities among them may have been, on some level, OK with this, i.e. “spoiling for a fight”. I read this argument in Van Creveld’s book, and it struck me as plausible. Maybe it’s true and maybe it isn’t. Certain posters misunderstood me to mean that Israel had started the war or engineered it out of an ulterior motive, and this was never my contention.
MarkC: “As I mentioned, I “get this” from an Israeli military historian named Martin van Creveld”
Do you really need historian to tell you about events most of us or our friends or our relatives were witnesses of?
In 1967 Israel was not at all certain it will even survive. Far cry from “Israeli command knew it will defeat …”. Granted, some might have said this with all confidence here and there, but what else would you expect them to say – “All is lost, do not upset our masters, quickly get into boxcars, it is time to go to Aushwitz”?
BTW, in 1973 Israel was definitely complacent and overconfident and almost got destroyed because of that. Sadly all the lessons were forgotten by 2006. But 1967 is totally different story.
I am writing after having read up until talk-back 121.
I usually enjoy participating in these discussions, but this one really bothers me, and so I’m not going to get embroiled in it other than to say that as an American-Israeli and soon to be Israeli-American, I am appalled at this talk of forced population transfer, ethnic cleansing, or whatever you want to call it, of West Bank Palestinians.
I know I speak for a lot of Israelis, Zionists, and pro-Israelis when I say that most of us do not agree with expulsion as a legitimate option for securing the future of Israel.
Too bad the discussion took this turn; I really wanted to talk (and learn) about the Golan, which was supposed to be the topic in the first place.
To Semite5000 (#157) – I wouldn’t worry too much about the above discussion; it is certainly not representative of mainstream Israeli public opinion – thank goodness. The vast majority of people here are appalled by such ideas, and luckily, we live in a democracy.
What is sad is that people who advocate such ideas seem to have a very blinkered view of the Middle East conflict. Beyond the rather obvious ethical and moral issues which should instantly close the debate on such warped proposals, it should be blindingly obvious that not only would they not solve anything; they would in fact exacerbate the situation.
However, when coming across such fringe opinions, I like to remind myself that Israel’s history of giving up land for peace has been an exclusively right-wing phenomenon and that historically it was the Left in Israel which built the many kibbutzim defending the country’s borders.
People like the commentators above are in fact one of the reasons I still vote for the far Left in Israel. Besides the important subject of the socialist principles of equal rights and opportunities for all Israeli citizens regardless of creed, ethnicity, sex or colour, (which I hope to see improved and advanced regardless of the security situation), I like to make sure that there are representatives in the Knesset who will counterbalance opinions such as those expressed above.
And yes, I do recognise Israel’s rights to Judea & Samaria and I do believe that territory was won fair and square in a defensive war which Israel did not seek, but what one can do in life is not always what one should do. Annexing the area will bring nothing positive to Israel. Expelling people is not on the agenda. We have to find a compromise – not for them only, but also for us. That is going to involve giving up some of the area of Judea & Samaria if and when we can be sure that we will not endanger our security by doing so. This nation has learned from the lessons of the Gaza withdrawal and I believe will not make the same mistake of unilateral withdrawal again.
At the moment that option is not viable because there are no guarantees of our security from the other side. Hopefully for the Palestinians and for us they will be able to elect at some point leaders who are more interested in progress and development than violence and incitement.Until then, we are pretty much locked in the status quo.
Good luck with your aliyah!
Thanks Hadar, and yes, I am well aware that the vast majority of Israelis do not support ethnic cleansing and or annexing all of Judea and Samaria. You and MarkC (and MJT) have pretty much spoken for me, so no reason to reiterate. On to the next thread.
AIRING
JEWISH
LAUNDRY
The reactions of hysteria to what Terry, I and a few others wrote are pretty telling. I missed about thirty posts, but skimmed the last 10-15. It’s sad that people who have trained themselves to accept the endless bloodying of Israel in a terror-based war of attrition must attack as ‘fringe’ and more those who suggest another way out. Nowhere in my own posts did I suggest a forced transfer of all Arabs from the ‘West Bank.’ The most radical (not really) things that I wrote were something like ‘a solution that provided real security will be somewhere between that of Benny Elon’s and Kahane’s.’ Then another where I expressed my view that Israel needs a Prime Minister that will say ‘no more two-state solution west of the Jordan’ and that will basically let the world know that Israel intends to win. My comments to Michael and Dikehopper were simply to say, ‘Israel is sovereign and your support is conditional on it not winning.’
It is extremely sad to see people – Mark, Semite, Hadar – position themselves as enlightened and label those of us who dare suggest that Israeli Jews have as much right to security and sovereignty as any other people as ‘fringe.’ But I am glad to be ‘fringe’ if this is part of a long-term effort to ‘get the Golah out of the Jew.’ It’s necessary. The assumed belief that the only moderate or acceptable position is one that internalizes the world’s dismissal of Jewish rights and history is evidence of exilic thinking. I do appreciate Michael’s work, but it’s fair to point out that his friendship is conditional, as is that of many liberal American Jews.
MarkC, your language is little better than that of Gary’s. Both are pretty colorful, so relax.
semite5000, I suspect the reality of Arab attitudes and the Israeli gov’t's restrictions and censorship of the right wing will hit you once you get there. What Hadar, Mark, etc., don’t elaborate is that it’s good being a part of the establishment. Accept the party line and internalize a lot of propaganda about ‘right-wing extremists’ and you can reap a lot of rewards, psychological and otherwise.
To Jonathan, Israel is still yet a ways from the Second Temple scenario. But if it does happen, it will be the fault of the enlightened Left more than that of the right wing. The Likud and other right wing elements have always sat quietly while Labour govt’s have been in power; the Left have traditionally trotted around the world undermining Likud govt’s when they ruled. This is also the fruit of a traditional one-party system and mentality by which ‘only we have the right to rule.’
Hadar, your reasons for voting Meretz (if that’s who you vote for) are purely reactive and punitive towards nationalists. But that is intrinsic to a leftist mindset.
It is extremely sad to see people – Mark, Semite, Hadar – position themselves as enlightened and label those of us who dare suggest that Israeli Jews have as much right to security and sovereignty as any other people as ‘fringe.’
Good grief, Larry. No one here–not even the Arabs who left comments, let alone me or the Israelis–deny Israel’s right to sovereignty and security.
I thought you knew me better than that, but I guess not.
Do you really think I’d be writing for Commentary Magazine if I didn’t think Jews had the right to sovereignty and security. Geez!
Thanks to all for the reading suggestions.
It’s minor in the big picture, but one phenomenon I wish would fade away is the temptation to act as undesignated spokesperson for a population; I don’t know what the citizens of the country I’ve spent my entire life in think unless I hear or see it from them, and in significantly greater than anecdotal numbers.
And even then… a current example: CBS is running a poll asking respondents to rate the current American chief executive. Do grades of F indicate a conservative perspective, a desire for more government, or a myriad of more superficial reasons?
“Syria’s and Egypt’s failure in the 1973 Yom Kippur War, despite their strong performances at the beginning, finally convinced the Arabs that the Jewish state could not be destroyed by conventional means.”
I think the huge bribes the United States is paying Egypt and the collapse of the Soviet Union (once the primary backer and military supplier of Israel’s principle enemies: Egypt, Syria and Iraq) might have something to do with the current situation.
I wouldn’t count on it lasting forever.
Semite5000 -
Talk to me about the Golan when you arrive in Israel. There is an amazing place there, an abandoned Circassian village (for all you fans of ethnic cleansing) that is like something from Indiana Jones. The zebra-striped minaret (typical for Circassians) rises out of a jungley grove. A little beyond it are spectacular views over Syria. Best of all, there are heirloom fruit trees gone wild with the most delicious fruit you will ever taste. Cherries, apricots, figs, grapes that you will not find in any supermarket. And a gigantic mulberry tree. Strangely, I have not seen this place mentioned in any guidebook. It is like a little shangri-la.
Larry in Silcon – Way to move those goalposts.
“Strangely, I have not seen this place mentioned in any guidebook. It is like a little shangri-la.”
As Don Henley sang in “The Last Resort” (“Hotel California”,) “You call some place paradise, kiss it goodbye.”
Mark, if there’s a historical fact in all the baloney you’ve posted here I’m having a hard time finding it. Your argument seems to boil down to you think you remember some historian quoting some Israeli saying they were “spoiling for a fight” in 1967. Yeah, that’s *way* more significant than the fact that Israel tried to talk Jordan out of joining the war.
Thank you Michael for this article and especially for your beautiful photos. We Israelis tend to visit the Golan in Winter and Spring when it is green, but these straw-on-basalt, brown landscapes you captured are beautiful too.
I had an opportunity to be there in the very last days of Spring this year:
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=167342&id=726027625&l=d4942de56f
The reality is the so-called Palestinians, which were created out of whole cloth by the KGB, are the proxies of Dar al Islam, and their sole purpose is to pursue jihad permanently against the infidel state of Israel. The so-called Oslo peace process is also a mirage. It’s a political ploy (taqiyya) employed by Dar al Islam to manipulate useful idiots (in this case the Quartet) into weakening Israel.
The creation of Israel in 1948 represented the reestablishment of Dar al Harb on Dar al Islam, and land that was once a part of Dar al Islam must always remain part of Dar al Islam, which explains the 1948 – 1949 war of conquest against Israel by the Muhammadans and all other subsequent wars of conquest, as Israel is victim of both hot and cold jihad.
Additionally, since the main goal of Islam is the subjugation of the world via imposition of Sharia, the jihad being waged by Dar al Islam against Israel is permanent and will continue into perpetuity until either Israel is destroyed or otherwise until Dar al Islam is rendered too weak to wage jihad, and no amount of Hudnas (temporary truces and treaties per Muhammad’s treaty of Hudaibiyah) will permanently stop the jihad. Indeed, it would be sacrilegious for the Muhammadans to ever end their permanent jihad not only against all unbelievers but also against the infidel state of Israel until the objective has been met, i.e., in this case Israel has been rendered Dar al Islam via the imposition of Sharia and the Jews that survive the resulting genocide are rendered subjugated dhimmis.
Of course, MJT will never report this reality much less acknowledge it because first of all his political correct sensibilities preclude him from ever studying Islam, and second of all because of his profession he has to adhere to a very rigid political correct protocol or else ruin his career according to him. Thus, the so-called MSM will obviously always distort the truth with respect to Islam, the nature of the jihad being waged against Israel, and even the greater global jihad at large.
MJT doesn’t realize that he is a product of Western civilization and that Muhammadans are products of Islamic civilization, and the way in which he sees the world couldn’t be more diametrically opposed to the way they see the world. Meanwhile, he can’t help but apply his Westernized political correct lens to Muhammadans and assume they see the world in the same exact same way he does.
If I were Israeli I would lobby for some sort of international massive financial inducements too good to pass up to persuade the so-called Palestinians to leave and for Jordan to accept them. It would not solve the jihad against Israel permanently in the long run, but it would make the security situation a hell of a lot better, and it would stop the daily headlines emanating from Israel because the two factions would be separated.
Not to mention that one-day Israel may be able to remove and transfer the so-called Palestinians and their Israeli Arab citizens as well simultaneously, and the only viable solution to the following might be the reason why.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHlb5FB26Lo
Moreover, I don’t see what is so unpalatable about population transfers if done in a humanitarian and descent way with the result making both parties better off in the long run? Hell, population transfers has been used successfully countless times before in the past to solve complex problems. Some times separating the two competing factions is the viable only solution.
In any event, if BHO had half a brain and it wasn’t warped, he would be concentrating his current efforts not on belittling Israel to cut its own throat by creating a Palestinian state that will inevitably be used as a rocket launching pad to launch rockets into Israel, but instead on eradicating the ruling Mullahs of Iran and their nuclear weapons program. Obliterate the ruling Mullahs of Iran and solve many problems in Iraq and Afghanistan simultaneously while also destroying the main means of support for Hezbollah, Hamas, and Syria.
If Iran gets nukes, they will use that additional leverage to create their Shi’a crescent to the Mediterranean Sea via Iraq and the Sunnis will not interfere. They will probably try to empty Israel via saber rattling also, and not only will Israel be emptied, but world oil prices will shoot through the roof every time they rattle their sabers, which judging by past performance will be almost all the time.
Finally, Pakistan, which has been playing a double game with the West for decades, will quickly become the nuclear supermarket for the Sunni world, as many Sunni states will rush to arm themselves with nuclear weapons in response to the Shi’a menace. Hence, the Dar al Islam, whose main goal is the subjugation of the world via the imposition of Sharia, will become armed to the teeth with nuclear weapons and a once manageable situation will become very untenable.
Post #111
Nothing moderate or reasonable is going to work.
In other words, if a solution that will work to improve the situation is not moderate or reasonable according to MJT’s political correct sensibilities, then you just have to resign yourselves to becoming the victims of another genocidal holocaust of Jews. Too bad! Meanwhile, Muhammadans can and do get away with murder all the time because well that’s what Muhammadans do.
I understand that everyone’s opinion is valid and people’s opinions change. I was a leftist 25 years ago. My time in Israel and with leftists taught me a great deal about the power structure in Israel, and how much it is still influenced by such thinking. I would propose that about 60% of Israeli Jews agree with me. Of the remaining 40%, about 10% are well to the right of my view. The remaining 30% are with Hadar, etc., dedicated universalists whose Jewishness is an accident of history, basically. The state for them was created to help eliminate both anti-Semitism and Jewish uniqueness.
The fact, which Terry, Ken, Adina, I and others have tried to point out, is that it did not work and does not work. Most of the 30% that Adina, Mark, etc., represent repetitively deny this and deal with it by trying the same experiment over and over again, or by emigrating. Emigration is always an option, since Israel can be quite a tough place to me. And if you are identified as a ‘right-winger’; that is, if you don’t agree that the State of Israel should be ruled in perpetuity by the 30% that Hadar claims are the sane majority, then you can be subject to all sorts of discrimination, or at least prejudice. So for a whippersnapper like Semite5000, it’s a hard road. To ‘become Israeli’ is quite a mixed bag since it is hardly synonymous with either true Zionism or Jewish liberation. I refer here to Benjamin Kerstein’s ‘Tel Aviv bubble’, with which I’m quite familiar. This is a post-Zionist world, and a natural, human effort to escape the Jewish destiny.
So it goes round and round. The bottom line is as I’ve written. The ‘peace process’ is a formalized procedure, from the POV of the EU, Russia, the US, etc., by which Israel is to be drawn and quartered. Not for nothing did Clinton refer to Ehud Barak as his ‘toy.’ The Israelis rejected Barak partly because of that and chose Sharon to counterbalance the Oslo disaster. Sharon eventually did some of that with Operation Homat Magen, then reversed himself and established the principle of making parts of the land Judenrein (regardless of whether Gaza is ‘Jewish’ or not). Most of the Israeli establishment has a big distaste for ‘settlers’ and is willing to threaten the security of average Israelis to put those settlers in their place. Again, this is part of a world view which is essentially national assimilation, but ironically leads to the nation losing – with the enthusiastic support of others – the sovereign rights that America, Russia, France, etc., enjoy.
To Michael, I think that you do not realize that insistence on a two-state solution is in effect a prescription for disaster for Israelis of all political stripes. In reality, it is a three or four-state solution, given that Jordan and Gaza are already ‘Palestinian states.’ It seems to me that Jews have been sufficiently traumatized by history that we find it quite difficult to stand up to the pressure and judgment of Gentiles. Even more specifically, the 60% to which I belong has very little voice in Israeli politics. ‘Elect the right, get the left’ – over and over. So this is a Jewish problem. Will it ever be sorted out? Perhaps with the next generation; not with this one.
If ‘moderates’ doubt the capacity of the Israeli establishment to systematically chase the right wing around and blacken its name to affect public opinion, then read – openmindedly – about the Rabin assassination and the role of GSS asset Avishai Raviv. The incitement laws, Gush Katif, Amona and the arrest and imprisonment of teenagers for holding signs against the expulsions in Gaza prove that political persecution is alive and well in Israel, our one and only homeland.
I read with dismay ,the news by Debka,that Bibi would be ready to relinquish 2/3 of Golan,only retaining the ridges line.
Have people got any confirmation of this?
To me,it is only one more nightmare to face ….
Dave Surls:
“I think the huge bribes the United States is paying Egypt and the collapse of the Soviet Union (once the primary backer and military supplier of Israel’s principle enemies: Egypt, Syria and Iraq) might have something to do with the current situation.”
It might, but then again, Syria is not being paid anything or else I am hopelessly naive.
“I wouldn’t count on it lasting forever.”
Neither do I and it has nothing to do with bribes or collapse of Soviets. It is how thing are in the Universe.
I don’t think you need to worry, Dr. T
Assad will surely reject it completely.
He has nothing but contempt for America and Obama and to him Mitchell is a little turd.
Why accept it when the Arabs will again feel like they did in 1967 with Iran taking Egypt’s role.
BTW, Isn’t there supposed to be a plebiscite on the Golan?
If the Israeli’s really want to commit suicide or nation-cide, giving up the Golan is definitely the way to go.
Trumpledor,
I also believe quite strongly that Israel needs the Golan far more than they need “peace” with Syria.
A situation like this always brings the same quote to mind, from the Book of Exodus. I don’t have the Torah in front of me so I’ll quote the English as I remember it:
“And there arose over Egypt a new pharaoh who knew not Joseph”
Obamayomama: MJT doesn’t realize that he is a product of Western civilization and that Muhammadans are products of Islamic civilization, and the way in which he sees the world couldn’t be more diametrically opposed to the way they see the world. Meanwhile, he can’t help but apply his Westernized political correct lens to Muhammadans and assume they see the world in the same exact same way he does.
Muhammadans? What century are you living in?
Anyway, you are a damn fool who obviously hasn’t read much of my work.
#160 Larry in the Silicon – You wrote “My comments to Michael and Dikehopper were simply to say, ‘Israel is sovereign and your support is conditional on it not winning.’” I don’t understand. What did you mean?
“It might, but then again, Syria is not being paid anything or else I am hopelessly naive.”
We don’t bribe the Syrians not to attack Israel (with conventional warfare), because we don’t need to.
All we needed to do was to convince Egypt not to do so (by flipping them billions of USD…which is exactly what we have been doing ever sice the mid 70s).
Syria was always way too weak to take on the Israelis by themselves, and now that they can’t get modern weapons from the Soviets, their situation is even more hopeless…and, they know it.
“What do you think will happen to it if we transfer populations?”
Probably the same thing that’s happened in Syria over the last 50 to 100 years. All the Jews have left Syria and moved to Israel or to places like the United States…and life goes on.
“Syrian Jews (Arabic: يهود سوريون) are Jews who inhabit the region of the modern state of Syria, and their descendants born outside Syria. Syrian Jews derive their origin from two groups: from the Jews who inhabited the region of today’s Syria from ancient times (known as Musta’arabi Jews, and sometimes classified as Mizrahi Jews, a generic term for the Jews with an extended history in the Middle East or North Africa); and from the Sephardi Jews (referring to Jews with an extended history in the Iberian Peninsula, i.e. Spain and Portugal) who fled to Syria after the expulsion of the Jews from Spain (1492 CE).”
“There were large communities in Aleppo and Damascus for centuries, and a smaller community in Qamishli on the Turkish border near Nusaybin. In the first half of the 20th century a large percentage of Syrian Jews emigrated to the U.S., Central and South America and Israel. Most of the remaining Jews left in the 28 years following 1973, due in part to the efforts of Judith Feld Carr, who claims to have helped some 3,228 Jews emigrate; emigration was officially allowed in 1992.[4] Today there are about 25 Jews in Syria, all of them living in Damascus.[5]“–wiki
Thanks to the endless persecution and barbarity of the Muslim invaders and colonialists Syria has been effectively “cleansed” of it’s Jewish population.
Re; #83 Terry
“I’m kind of simple-minded [...] I only understand winning & losing.’
A country can win without stooping low and violating its own core principles.
“They just can’t understand that civilization is something that requires sacrifice, that it must be fought for, that barbarism must be defeated.”
Forced transfer IS barbarism. Out of curiosity, will you be sacrificing for Israel or just supporting from the sidelines?
Terry, I weighed my words above very carefully because of Yom Kippur. You often have intelligent remarks but cross the line on these matters. As a new immigrant to Israel, you sure aren’t plugged into mainstream Israeli thought. Throughout Israeli history, from the Labor Zionists to Jabotinsky’s right-wing Revisionist movement, the zionism was always against harming the rights or disenfranchisement of the Arabs.
Michael, thank you for the epic piece. I heard that the Golan has a considerable amount of spring water reserves, which is just as important an issue as the Sea of Galilee. Do you know anything about this? Also, you missed one thing that Israelis love about the Golan — it boasts the only ski slope in the winter!